Conference hydra::dejavu

HEY DAVE

	I have read some Edgar Cayce stuff and also find it fascinating.  I
once got heavily into the subject of Atlantis and ran across some of his stuff.
William Swygard and Diane (Ama-Ita-Anda) cross alot of the same lines that 
Edgar did.  In the "Awareness Techniques" series they thru their out-of-body
expieriences explain similiar incites into reincarnation, atlantis, all the
plains of existence, ect.  Also the "Seth" series of books by Jane Roberts
are similiar.

	This genre has me almost hypmatized by it's appealing "know all the 
answers" attitude.  It all appears very feasible and most likely the true
nature of reality.  Myself and some cohorts have been diving into this subject
for over a year now.  We have covered "Positive Thinking", Awareness Techniques
, Crystal Power, New Physics (Awesome Lifeforce-Joseph cater), and reincarna-
tion (Seth-Jane Roberts).  The material gets very scarey at times because it
dares to question what were thought to be absolute truths.  It also challenges
you to try it yourself.  In fact i think i'll start up a note to query the
readers on their expieriences in this realm.

							Jorge'

To leaven some of this, however, I suggest you might read _Spirits,
Stars, and Spells_, by L. Sprague and Catherine deCamp.  It covers
the skeptic's view of a lot of this.  The problem here is that a lot
of the stuff I see is, in the words of Theodore Sturgeon 90% crap.  If
a person _doesn't_ "question what we thought to be absolute truths," he
or she's put his or her mind in the deep freeze; however, the reverse
of skepticism (questioning beliefs) is credulousness (accepting
_everything_ that someone makes sound convincing).  I also suggest you
might read _The Magic of Uri Geller_, where a superb stage magician, 
James ("The Amazing") Randi shows how the Geller manifestations can
be faked, and how he once passed himself off as a person with paranormal
powers, just to show how it can be done.  Randi
has written other books taking the pragmatist's view of these things,
and is well worth reading (his best is the recent _Humbug!_, where he 
speaks well, if somewhat shrilly).

I do not rule out paranormal experiences, but that doesn't mean I recommend
everybody to run to their nearest bookshop and buy everything labeled
"Occult" without reservation.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

I also *strongly* recommend D. H. Rawcliffe's _The Psycholohy of the
Occult_, available through Dover Press, which puts a better perspective on
some phenomena (e.g., the hypnagogic state)

-SK

In relation to Edgar Cayce's books, I've read some of his books on
dreams, where he indicates one is constantly resolving problems in
ones dreams, and it is most interesting in describing his perspective
that dreams can and have been used to resolve problems in the
waking state of life, as opposed to using logic as we normally would.
This may have a tendancy to make one question the value of "un-reality".

Zig

Re .0,.3:

Easy scholarship demonstrated that Cayce plagarized, either consciously or 
unconsciously all his writings on Atlantis from Ignatius Donnelley's books
on the subject.  In point of fact, Atlantis is generally thought to have
been based on tales of an early Mediterrenian culture rather Cretelike in
organization that was situated on or next to the volcanic island of Therea
before it exploded.

On dream-solutions:  often, letting one's subconscious to work on a problem
is a good idea, as a part of your mind can attack the problem from a differ-
ent perspective.  This might be because a subconscious mind is less _inhibited_
than the conscious mind rather than that we're throwing out reality.

The procedure of "sleeping on a problem" is far older than Cayce.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE .4

Would you please sh us where Edgar Cayce plagerized his Atlantis readings.
I have read everything that has been put out on Cayces readings and have
enjoyed them very much.  This statment of yours that Cayce is a froad(sp)
is most disturbing.

Steve

        Steve, I've taken the liberty of running your note 4.5 through the
        spelling checker.  One of the really nice things about the EVE
        editor is that, if you've got DECspell on your system (you mean
        you don't?), all you have to do to spelling check a buffer of text
        is press the "DO" key (or the equivalent on your VT100), type the
        "SPELL" command, press "Return" to confirm it, and presto!  Your
        buffer gets written out into a scratch file and DECspell gets
        invoked to check it over.  When you exit from SPELL, it gets read
        back into your buffer.  Really neat -- try it, you'll like it! 
        (It might even work with the EDT keypad emulator -- use PF1/KP7
        and say SPELL.)
        
        Tom
        
            < Note 4.5 by 8555::TIMPSON "The rest... The Universe!" >
                             -< Cayce is wrong??? >-

RE .4

Would you please show us where Edgar Cayce plagiarized his Atlantis readings.
I have read everything that has been put out on Cayce's readings and have
enjoyed them very much.  This statement of yours that Cayce is a fraud
is most disturbing.

Steve

    
      When the subject of Edgar Cayce came up out here I suggested that
    those of us who do RD at the Colorado CSC owe him a very great debt
    as in his medical stuff he was clearly the Father of Remote Diagnosis!
    
      The subconscious can be used deliberately as a problem solving
    tool even when you're awake.  I've kicked this around with several
    friends and we have discovered a computer analogy. Step by step:
    
         - Define what we need to accomplish (programming, setting a
             goal)
           
         - Examine what we know that relates to the problem (collecting
             data)
    
         - Organize it mentally in relation to the problem (input data)
    
         - Start the "background process running and then put it out
             of your conscious mind and go on about other things.
    
       I've learned to rely on this process to the point that I don't
     sweat deadlines, etc.  I have full confidence that sometime before
     the time I have defined as the "must have solution time" a little
     alarm will go off in my head, while I'm driving my car, eating,
     reading a book, or doing almost anything. The little alarm is
     my subconscious saying "Okay, I'm ready to talk to you about that
     problem now."  The solution then just dumps out.
    
       I hit this by accident once about eight years ago when I sat
     bolt upright in bed in the middle of the night with the solution
     to a complex personal financial problem which I'd deliberately
     forced out of my thoughts so I could get some sleep.  Since then
     I've learned to input data the same way and force the current
     problem out of my mind the same way. It's never failed me.
    
       Lately I've identified several coworkers who use a similar process.
     We each seem to visualize it differently but obviously what we're
     doing is the same time.
    
      Once ytou learn to trust this (ability?)(skill?)(?) it lowers
     your stress level considerably!
    
                                               -- Herb Devins
    
    

    The Donnelly books on Atlantis have been reprinted in paperback.
    They have been seen in "Annie's Book Swap" and other places.
    Try any good used book store.
    
    Of course if both Cayce and Donelly were describing the same set
    of "historical truth", the results ought to be similar...
    
    dave pierson

    Herb Devins (Note 4.7) certainly has the 'right attitude' as far
    as I'm (personally) concerned. By the way, I've found the SETH
    books by Jane Roberts (who died recently, by the way) some of
    the most encouraging reading since Thomas Merton's books. As
    a longtime Catholic, the continuity seems 'perfectly obvious'
    from Merton's SEEDS OF CONTEMPLATION to any Seth book. QED.
    
    - Boleslaw
    

    
    	RE: .10
    		Well, I find Steve's entries are usually quite high
    quality.    He doesn't always come across as the total skeptic
    like he did in two replies in this Edgar Cayce topic.   My, but
    they certainly seem to have rubbed you the wrong way, though.
    I think your characterizing this as "phony skepticisim" is perhaps
    a little too harsh (not to mention rude?).   Psychic phenomena
    are conceptually difficult, and it is easy to seem over skeptical
    or gullible.   I believe skepticism is a little more worthy than
    gullibility.
    	Re-read some of Steve's entries in other topics and I think
    you will see that he cannot be adaquatly confined or described
    by the "skeptic" label.
    
	And now, on the other hand...

    	RE .2, .4
    
    I will add my voice to those asking Mr Kallis to defend his
    debunking of the Edgar Cayce myth.   Do you still believe what
    you entered here Steve?  It's been a while....
    
    	I lived near the A.R.E.  (Association for Research and 
    Enlightenment, which resides in the old Edgar Cayce hospital
    in Virginia Beach)     While I was there I became very interested
    in Cayce who had quite an impressive record for accurate medical 
    diagnosis.   I do believe his record is less clear when one 
    investigates the accuracies of past life readings or future 
    predictions, yet these are inherently less verifiable than the
    medical readings were.    His medical readings were always given
    to qualified medical personnel to verify, and he demonstrated
    remarkable accuracy, far beyond that of most doctors.   The 
    existence of the hospital building attests to the respect he
    gained for his work during his lifetime.
    
    	It is well to remember that his reputation was mainly built
    on the medical diagnosis.   The past life readings and other
    controversial stuff like predictions, were in special readings
    he gave near the end of his life.   If it could be shown that
    his view of Atlantis was plagarized, would this also discredit
    all the verified correct remote clairvoyant medical diagnosis ?
    I don't think so.
    
	Well, Steve, I find your view of Edgar Cayce to be a little
    shallow.   Do you still believe this ?   Where did you get your
    information about the claim that Cayce plagarized Donnelly ?

    	Alan.

    
    RE:   .10
    
    > For those of us who have had such experiences, and were fully
    > awake when it happened, we find Mr. Kallis' remarks rather tedious...
    
    
    Speak for yourself!
    
    Marion (who_suspects_there_may_be_more_here_than_meets_the_eye)

RE: .10:

	(1) As the bulk of his interactions suggest, Steve Kallis can
            hardly be considered a put-up-or-shutup skeptic ...

	(2) Most DEJAVU participants are, no doubt, eagerly awaiting
            your introduction to Topher Cooper and John Mitchell ...


Personally, I find healthy skepticism is always preferable to fuzzy thinking
and am glad that this conference has its share of (friendly) skeptics. 
You may include me in that category ...


Gene
    

RE: .10

I detect a burr under somebody's tail.  Steve Kallis can hardly be classed as a
"skeptic."  I find his writing to be rather even and well-conceived, and his
attitude generally one of tolerance.  He also has a good sense of humor and
doesn't take himself too seriously. Could it be you are upset because Steve
challenged some notions you hold dear?   


RE: .13

How DARE you lump me in the same class as Topher Cooper!    ;-)



John M. 

    Re .10
    
    >..........................Would he admit to having some unmistakably
    >psychic experience?  Would he lose his mind?
    
    If it's any of your concern, I'll admit to having more than one
    experience I consider to be genuinely psychic.  As for losing my
    mind, people have accused me of that for _years_ :-)
    
    >I will add my voice to those asking Mr Kallis to defend his
    >debunking of the Edgar Cayce myth.  ...  
    
    I think "debunking" is a little strong, Alan (please call me Steve
    -- the other sounds a little formal, after all this time ... (-:).
    I am not and do not want to debunk all that Cayce did; however,
    some doubts on aspects of it come from his Atlantis theories, which
    are close to Donnelley's (all the reasearch I've done leads me to
    the conclusion that the Atlantis myth [and even that term bothers
    some people] is a distortion of the Platonic stories, which in turn
    were a distortion of a story going around in Egypt, distorted by
    time, of the eruption of the volcanic island of Therea [or Thera],
    and the resulting catastrophic decline of the Minoan Empire).
    
    >	It is well to remember that his reputation was mainly built
    >on the medical diagnosis.   The past life readings and other
    >controversial stuff like predictions, were in special readings
    >he gave near the end of his life.   If it could be shown that
    >his view of Atlantis was plagarized, would this also discredit
    >all the verified correct remote clairvoyant medical diagnosis ?
    >I don't think so. 
    
    Nor do I.  Can the two be separated in the minds of the readers?
    And have those who looked at his diagnoses explored other ways he
    might have reached his conclusions?  The point is, to the extent
    we can separate out the kernel of truth _whatever it might be_,
    the clearer picture we will have of what processes were involved.
    It's good to consider the alternates; this was and is the thrust
    of my earlier entries.  I get into this somewhere in other notes
    here.
    
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

re: .10

Steve has been a valued contributor of DEJAVU since its inception.  I don't
consider him a skeptic but he does keep us mystical yahoos grounded.  Steve
can always be counted on to give a book title or some other reference
concerning just about every topic in this file.

I for one welcome Steve's input to this file.

		Dave

    Dear SCOTCH::FINE,
    
    Your attack on Steve was personal and unwarranted, and I found it
    offensive. Attack the argument all you want, but don't attack the
    arguer. Disagree without being disagreeable. 
    
    We have heated discussions here, but the heat should be applied
    to the subject and not the writer.
    
    I do not agree with Steve on many subjects, but he is 100% entitled
    to his opinion, right or wrong (and he is a remarkable storehouse of 
    knowledge).
    
     So, SCOTCH::FINE (whomever you may be), please refrain from personal
    attacks. Or, I'll ask one of my witch friends to cast a spell on you.
                          
    -bs

    Re: .18
    
    Rick,
    
    I think once you read further into this notesfile that you will
    find more believers than you think.  Hopefully as you read on you
    will feel more comfortable about the other members of DEJAVU.
    
    I for one enjoy this notesfile more that any other and find the
    wide range of people to be interesting and refreshing. (That includes
    Steve Kallis Jr who in my opinion is quite knowledgeable *and* open
    minded!!)
    
    Welcome!!
    
    Deb

    
    
    Rick,
    
    I do hope you come to a point where you feel comfortable enough
    with DEJAVU to share your experiences.  I do understand about
    feeling invalidated by other's skepticism, and this type of
    path can be lonely at times.  I hope you come to find that you
    are among friends.
    
    Carole
    

    I would like to add my "welcome" , too, Rick. You've probably
    discovered this by now, but just in case....
    
    I think this is one of the "warm fuzzy" notesfiles around. I'm involved
    in some which are sort of confrontational and "prove-it" oriented.
    I think you'll find this file, at least, to be "home". We all seem
    to be very respectful of each other and each others' ideas. And
    even those of us who have much knowledge in these areas (Steve,
    Marcia, many others) are always respectful of, and informative to,
    those of us without this knowledge (me, f'r'instance).
    
    I feel at home here and I always learn a lot. I hope you will, too,
    and I'm sure we'll learn from you. Welcome.
    
    Dawn
    

    re .18
    
    Mr SCOTCH::FINE, could you get the next megabucks number for me?
    

    Rick,
    I'd also like to thank you to the conference.  I would recommend
    that you spend some time (it took me a month!) going back through
    old notes entries and catch up on what we are talking about.  This
    would also be the best way possible to "get to know" most of the
    major noters of the conference.  I think you'd realize that we're
    all friends here and we're quite open about unexplained encounters.
    I think that almost everyone here has a few they've talked
    about.
    
    Dave
    
    P.S.
    I'd like the number for next Friday's Mass Millions, please.

    
    Rick,
    
    Yes, I would also like to welcome you, however one thing that I
    believe this conference prides itself on (since my initial note
    back in May) is the fact that people treat each other and their
    beliefs with the utmost respect.
    
    In other words, we may not agree with what you say (and vice versa)
    and may think it is the most incredulous thing ever said on the
    face of the Earth, but your right to say it will be defended here.
    
    While I, too, was not terribly pleased to read what you said about
    Steve (because I happen to like him a great deal), I know that you 
    are new here and that we'll all take some getting used to.  
    
    People do change and grow (I can attest to that personally and others
    in this conference have played a major part of my own personal growth
    both on and offline - thanks all!) and there is plenty of room to do 
    that here.  One of the most important concepts that I've learned is 
    that we are *all* teachers and we are *all* students in any given 
    situation.  If you approach DEJAVU in that way, you will probably get 
    a lot out of it, as will we also benefit from your entries.  Believe 
    that is called  'win-win' situation in some circles.
    
    Please get to know us on a personal level.  One suggestion - read
    my topic on "Religions and World Peace".  There are a lot of good
    observations on group dynamics there which may help you to understand
    things that go on here.  Again, welcome.  I look forward to reading 
    your entries.
    
    Cindy
                 

    Rick,
    We really do want to hear all about your experiences... Note 27
    is about UFO encounters and those are particularly interesting to
    some of us.  One more saying... welcome.
    Mary

    digress i must for all the welcome stuff means nothing to me.
    
    but edgar cayce is something else.
    I read his books when i was a more impressionable teenager than as
    a less impressionable adult.
    I think a relook to the attitudes that i have established might
    be in order to be able to generate enough cynicism towards the general
    topic of his working; but to put it quite simply i was in total
    awe of the things he actually/supposedly did.
    

    
    Maybe the basenote should have been called Rick's debut.
    Just kidding.
    
    gtb
    

    
    Does anyone have the address or has directions to the Edgar Cayce
    center in Virginia Beach?  (I believe the name of the center is
    something like Center for Enlightenment.)  I'm leaving for Williamsburg
    tomorrow and was thinking about driving to Virginia Beach if I
    had time....
    
    Thanks,
    
    Linda
    

    The address I have for the A.R.E. (Association for Research and
    Enlightenment) is P.O Box 595, Virginia Beach, VA  23451
    
    However, you could try calling them and asking their street location.
    Their phone number is 804-428-3588.  
    
    	- Bill

    Re: .30
    
    Thanks, Bill, for the info...
    
    As it turns out, when I was walking thru the Norfolk airport
    I went over to a wall filled with pamphlets and there happened to be 
    pamphlets for the A.R.E. and how to get there....
    
    I stopped by the A.R.E. and browsed thru the library and the bookstore,
    and walked in the meditational gardens....  it was nice....
    
    Linda

    a good book i read on atlantis by otto muck??
    the secret of atlantis.
    let me know what you think..
    everthing cannot be explained simply..!!!!!

    Edgar Cayce.
    I started reading his material a year ago this month.  I found
    it exciting because it made me take a new look at myself and the world
    around me - it also makes you look at yourself as the cause of the
    reality you find around you.
     
    I was in heaven with his books until my studies began encompassing
    wider areas.  In particular "Messages from Michael" and his series of
    books.  (Michael is a channeled entity).
    My biggest problem with Cayce was his religious bend in his
    'teachings'.  It did not bother me at all at first, but then you
    realize as you read on and read others, that his premise is that we are
    'bad' and are working towards being 'good'.  Quite frankly, I've had
    enough guilt in my life and self depreciating feelings that I don't
    need anyone to add to the pot.  
    Cayce was a great place for me to reacquaint myself to metaphysics and
    I've moved on.
    Anyone out there who is ready to stop playing the victim in life and
    take charge of what is happening to them should (how I HATE that word -
    let me change that to 'might want to') read the MICHAEL books.  It can
    help you stop thinking in terms of GOOD and EVIL and start thinking in
    terms of CHOICE.
    Try it.....you'll like it!
    Richard Bach's book 'ONE' is a real mind exerciser.
    

    I like it!  Choice is the trap of freedom.  Graduate to a larger trap.
    If one can get out of their current trap, any trap is escapable.
    
    L.

    L. - Can you elaborate on your thought that "choice is the trap of
    freedom"?  To me, choice and the awareness that we can choose is
    empowering.  Not only can you choose different actions and paths to
    take, you can choose your beliefs and how you perceive yourself and the
    world at large.  I see this as perhaps the ulitmate power of mind. 
    That's why I am a little confused to hear it referred to as a trap.  Or
    is it just a metaphor that I'm taking too literally?  Enlightenment
    appreciated...!
    
    Bedard on Cayce - I believe Cayce to be one of the greatest mystics of
    our time.  But with all (?) mystics, (as with all of us), the work of
    spirit passes comes into our mind/intuition/subconscious and we do
    "something" with it.  We become in a way, a vessel, that holds this
    thought energy from spirit and as a vessel, we add to it our own form,
    to one degree or another.  
    
    Cayce, as many people in his day, probably was dealing with some of the 
    traditional religious programming that said (and still says) that we are 
    all born with original sin.  We're "bad" from the word go.  I've never
    liked that concept.  In fact, it stinks.  As with all teachings, I
    believe it is the students responsibility to attempt as best as
    possible to seperate the chaff from the grain.  To respectfully put
    aside that which cannot be used, or that which doesn't feel right.
    
    I've been reading some of Matthew Fox's work lately, a Dominican
    priest, who has recently been testing the catholicity of the Roman
    Catholic Church.  He says of original sin:
    
    "I also object to orginal sin as the starting point of religion because
    of the tremendous psychic damage it has done.  People are already
    terribly vulnerable to self-doubt and guilt, especially members of
    minority groups - women, blacks, Native Americans, homosexuals.  The
    whole idealogy of original sin increases one's alienation and feeds the
    sado-masochistic energies in the culture - the sense that one is not
    worth.
    
    If you start with the notion that you were born a blotch on existence,
    you will never be empowered to do something about the brokenness of
    life.  In creation spirituality, we begin with the idea that each of us
    is born a unique expresion of divinity, an image of God.  Teaching our
    children this is the only way to build the pride and security our
    culture needs so desperately."
    
    The God/Goddess in my heart is a loving, nurturing being/presence.  
    I believe that s/he is more of a proponent of original blessing than 
    original sin, if I may be so bold.
    
    - Karen
             
    
       

    Though I have read some of Cayce's books, I still disagree our highest
    form is to be a vessel.  We have a vessel as one has a wallet or purse.
    We should do it good service such that it serves us well.
    
    Life itself is a trap.  We, all of us, incarnated into this "trap".
    Some had a purpose, most fell into life because there wasn't
    one whole heck of a lot going on anywhere else.
    
    Choosing a larger venue, a cage too large makes much more sense
    than being stuck in a cage too small.  Again, most like the
    furnishings of their room:  BMW (or =), house on the Cape
    and do not feel nor recoginze their position as being stuck.
    Fine, some of us have work to do.  And I suggest we not disturb
    the natives.
    
    Choosing a larger venue means to progress toward the largest venue
    of all.  Creation is still a trap.  So What!  So until one is
    actually re-united with the creator, make the best of it!  
    
    BTW: Don't Worry, Be Happy
    
    nuk, nuk, nuk
    
    L.

    re .36 Larry
    
    Ooooooo yuk...  I have a VERY strong response to your concept that life
    is a trap, L.  It evokes feelings of powerlessness as opposed to
    empoowerment, coercion as opposed to co-creation, andsado-masochism
    instead of nurturance.  
    
    It also sounds like you think the cosmos is a pretty uninteresting 
    place, and that most of us just "fell" here from lack of anything better
    to do or place to be.  
    
    I have to stretch my imagination to think that this outlook "enhances" 
    your life;  maybe it does - I know it would be counter-productive to
    mine.  I see I did interpret your original note correctly, thank you.
    
    By the way, just to clarify a point - I did not say that our highest
    form is to be a vessel.  By using the analogy of the vessel, I was 
    attempting to describe how information from spirit is altered, simply 
    by virtue that it has entered a person's consciousness.  Actually,
    consciousness IS a vessel - it's not something we need to strive for.
    
    Another analogy that comes to mind is the game where you have a group of 
    people sitting in a circle and one person whispers a short story to 
    another and it's passed around to see how the story "evolves" by the time 
    it reaches the last person.  That is probably a better representation 
    of the complexity of spirit communication, which, I believe Cayce was 
    engaged in.  If Cayce tended to "shade" the information he gave with a 
    good vs. evil context, I'm postulating that it could have been his own
    personal interpretations of the info he received.  Anyway, it was the 
    dynamic of how information is altered by the consciousness between the 
    time it enters and the time it is passed on, that I was referring to 
    with the vessel analogy.  
    
    Hope I expressed it better this time.
    
    - Karen
    

    Re: Karen
    
    I dig it too! :-)  I feel that life is a wonderful opportunity to
    experience, explore, feel, create...  So that's what I'm doing.
    If life is *really* a trap, or a chore, or a time to pay dues, or
    Hell...well then, I guess the joke is on me, 'cause I didn't notice!
    :-)
    
    Jerri

    re: last few
    
        As I have said before, we are both jailor and jailed.  Yes, life
    is a trap...until it isn't.  That is, it *can* be, but it doesn't
    need to be.  This is related to a discussion held in here two years
    ago wherein an individual stated the desire to "be" or "float."
    I contended that I would rather soar than float.  I believe that
    these ideas are concurrent and dual or dichotomous, in other words,
    yes, we can "be" and yet via desire, imagination and expection we
    can reach beyond...always reaching for more.  NOT in disdain as is
    implied in the negatives Karen characterized Larry with, but with
    awareness and gratitude for the current "being" as well as the other
    avenue of "more".  Yes, I prefer the optimistic, empowering feelings
    of a future of more, but that doesn't mean I can't see the "potential"
    for being trapped in some sort of stagnant lifetime nor does it mean
    I won't be grateful for the "Beingness" I experience.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    I think I can fall into traps,or,put myself in one. Its up to me to
    reconize it and deal with it. Some are harder to get out of than
    others,but,it is the experience that will help me grow.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Re: Frederick

>    This is related to a discussion held in here two years
>    ago wherein an individual stated the desire to "be" or "float."
>    I contended that I would rather soar than float.  

Yeh, I think that was me that said that.  I soar too...but I don't
make it my goal (I'm not saying that you do).

If we can enjoy where we are, and soar beyond, and not get caught up 
in our own beliefs...WONDERFUL!  That certainly sounds appealing to me!!

Many of my comments are made in response to what I perceive as people
having a goal to get away from where they are...and sometimes it seems
as if they feel this makes them "better" somehow.  Since I enjoy my life
very much (despite very difficult situations), *I* have a great 
appreciation for life, and the fullness that is HERE...so that is what 
I express quite often.  I'm also very spiritual...but it's not something 
I can explain very well in words.

Jerri

    re: Frederick
    
    Hi!  Thank you for your input.  I'd like to clarify that the disdain
    you referred to that I have is a response to the *concept* that life
    is a trap, and is not directed to him as a person.  Maybe that's 
    understood, but just want to be sure.
    
    Just in case - Larry if you're out there - I love ya babe!!!
    
    Peace, 
    
    Karen
   

    
    For a while I was 'trapped' by Larry's earlier thought that choice is 
    the trap of freedom, and then I read his recent entry here, and thought 
    about the way that the word trap snaps shut (thunk!) on our perceptions...
    
    I remembered from who-knows-where that the word's origins are in the
    Old English word for tread or footstep, the implication of movement
    caught or stopped, and that when I think of it, by extension ultimate
    freedom lies in the motionlessness, timelessness, boundlessness of union 
    with the infinite. Following that line of reasoning, the very choice to 
    be here is to accept being contained within some boundary, to move within 
    a space that has limits of some kind, no matter how tenuous or barely 
    perceptible those limits may be.
    
    There is no punishment or blame implicit in the recognition that we do
    have limits on this level of being - after all, with this envelope of 
    skin and flesh, "I" is the most basic 'trap' of all. The question - for
    me at any rate - is to determine why that piece of the infinite spirit 
    that is currently within the form known as Gloria set foot into this 
    enclosure in the first place, and then what...?
    
    
       

    
    re:. 43 (Gloria)
    
    Hey!  I like what you said. :-)
    
    re:  .38 (I think)
    
    I thought it was "This God and Universe vibrates complete..."
    but then again this is coming from someone with a "I led the pidgeons
    to the flag" kind of mind....:-)
    
    Guy

.44 Guy

This Garden Universe vibrates complete
Some, we get a sound so sweet
Vibrations reach on up to become light
And then through gamma out of sight
Between the eyes and ears there lie
The sound of color and the light of a sigh
And to hear the Sun, what a thing to believe
But it's all around if we could but perceive
To know ultraviolet, infra-red and x-rays
Beauty to find in so many ways
Two notes of the chord, that's our forescope
But to reach the chord is our life's hope
And to name the chord is important to some,
So they give it a word and the word is ... Ohm.

From the Moody Blues _In Search of the Lost Chord_
(there's a lot of 'soaring' on *that* album!)

... He'll take to up, he'll bring you down. He'll plant your feet back on
the ground ...

Jay

    Karen (.37),
    
    I agree with the concept that a certain amount of the channeler's own
    'stuff' comes through with the message.  I recently had a long talk
    with a channeler and asked her the question 'how did she keep her
    ego/personality from interpreting the message?'.  Her reply was that it
    was true that what was being given stepped down through the layers of
    consciousness and that the messages would be refracted through her ego.
    She said she has worked on herself to get rid of her 'junk' in order
    to keep what was being said pure, but even then her personality would
    be integrated into what was being said.  
    
    Enjoying your input Karen, thanks...
    
    Ro
    

RE Jay

Jay! You bring back memories.... Is this the same album as the following (and I
hope I remembered it well....)?

Cold hearted orb, that rules the night
Removed the colors from our sight
Red is gray... and yellow white...
But we decide which is right,
which is an illusion.....

Yes the moody blues *soar*!

Arie

re: .47 (Arie)

    Nope, "Cold Hearted Orb..." is from "Days of Future Past", the "This
    Garden Universe..." is from "In Search Of The Lost Chord".  
    Great albums, great group (The same group that brougnt us such lines
    as "With the Power ot 10 billion butterfly sneezes..." - From "To Our
    Childrens, Childrens, Children).

    Are we dating ourselves???

    Terry

    It's been awhile but I've read a number of Cayce books.  I don't recall
    his claiming we are 'bad', trying to become 'good'.  I think his point
    of view was that we created that duality and it is our goal to overcome
    it (among other things).

    Couple of other points.  I felt the same way after awhile about his
    religous orientation so I moved on to other sources but I still thank
    him and respect his message, which isn't all that different from others
    I've read or heard, from Lazaris to Shirley McClaine, from Zukov to
    Arguelles to Dejavu.  The other thing that I found unique in him was that 
    he wasn't claiming to channel anybody, just himself, that while in a 
    trance, he gained access to "information" (collective unconscious?) and
    pass it on to those who needed/requested it.  One reason for his status as 
    one of the great mystics, is that his work is so well documented.  All
    n-thousand of his readings are recorded, indexed and published (now in a 
    20 (or so) volume set available through the A.R.E.)

    Terry (who_tries_not_to_confuse_the_message_with_the_messenger)

    No unbrage taken Karen.
    
    The point is trap is an analogy and with our common fear of being
    trapped, the analogy succeeds, if and only if we ask ourselves
    the two questions: "How did I get into this?" and "How do I get out?"
    
    Cayce's writings started me on the adventure to seek the answeres
    to these questions.  The answers are incomplete with me and I feel
    in the attempts to answer there is a growing emotional connection
    with the spiritual self.
    
    L.

    Thanks for the excellent expansion on the idea of life/being/existence
    as a trap!  L, for gettin' the juices flowin';  Gloria, Frederick, Jerri &
    Michael for your perceptions;  Jay, for a wonderful trip down memory
    lane with a group that has always been an inspiration to me, (I
    remember when Days of Future Passed first came out - it was such a
    maverick for it's time.  Now *that's* dating myself!  But how about 
    Seventh Sojourn - there's another classic!!!)
    
    Its all been great - no more disdain!  Guess this has been a sort of
    "Disdain Remover" - think we should market it...?
    
    See you in the Garden~~~
    
    Karen
    
                     

    re:  Various notes relating to the influence of the channel on
    what's channeled.  
    
    One is sometimes tempted to think that if only we didn't have to work
    through these channels God (Christ Consciousness, your dead uncle,
    etc.) could speak directly to us.  I suggest that they do speak
    directly; most of the time we're not listening! 
    
    Does it not also denigrate the channel and deny his/her purpose in life
    to wish them and their [by implication] lousy personal vibes completely
    out of the picture?  Is that not a vestige of the concept of original
    sin?  If the medium is the message, then look to the medium you're
    using to channel the guidance for your life. 
    
    My take on original sin, by the way, is simply that it's a description
    of the human condition:  most of us humans believe completely and
    absolutely most of the time that we are separate beings in a sundered
    universe -- one that is composed of either "ME" or "NOT ME" and "THEM"
    and "US".  Someone in an earlier note also alluded to Cayce's (and
    others') interpretation of original sin as a mis-interpretation of the
    universe as a duality of good and evil.  If you read the myth
    carefully, you will note that the serpent tempted Eve with the fruit of
    the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil.  But if the good-evil
    duality is an illusion we got hooked on a bum mindset!  Original Sin
    says that all our other illusions derive from that one.  Moreover, if
    you read between the lines in the myth of the fall, you realize that
    God was either in cahoots with the serpent or s/he did not consult
    his/her omniscience concerning human psychology. Warning the children
    in the garden not to eat the fruit of a certain tree!  What better way
    to goad them into doing so? 
        
    For a delightful exploration of this and other biblical myths, I
    recommend you read Carl Jung's _Answer_to_Job_. _Reflections_On_The_
    Christ_ by David Spangler, published by Findhorn Foundation of
    Scotland, is another book that has shaped my ideas on this subject.
    Spangler has a chapter in that book called Lucifer and the Christ,
    which I've found particularly helpful.

    Donald Reinke    
    

    re: .41 (Jerri)
    
         Yes, I *do* remember you.  Obviously there have been changes
    in your life since then (you used a different last name then.)  ;-)
    
    Frederick
    

    Hi Jerri,
    
    Good to see you here.  I didn't recognize you; hadn't realized you
    changed your name!
    
    Hope all is well with you. 
    
    Ro
    

RE: The Trap
    
    As I rather suspect Larry knows, this is the central thesis of the
    group of religions known as Gnosticism.
    
    Gnosticism postulates that the physical universe and several layers of
    non-physical universe was created by one or more bad-guy gods,
    explicitly for the purpose of trapping or jailing our inner-most being
    (not our soul, which is one of the inner "walls" of the prison, but
    the soul of the soul or even the soul of the soul of the soul).
    
    The word Gnostic comes from a Greek word meaning "to know".  The
    solution to being trapped was postulated to be knowledge.  First off,
    knowledge that you are in jail, and secondly detailed knowledge of
    the exact structure of the jail -- most importantly, the knowledge
    needed to scale the walls, pick the locks, slip through the cracks and
    bribe or trick the guards when the opportunity to escape (at death)
    comes.
    
    The many different sects differed as to these details, as to how one
    learned, etc.  For example, some sects taught that once you realized
    that the "rules" of morality were jailhouse rules designed to keep you
    in line (ignorant) that there was then no longer any need to follow
    them.  Others taught the exact opposite, that immorality/hedonism
    resulted in tying you to the material-world/jail, and made flight
    virtually impossible even if you knew all the tricks; and so asceticism
    was absolutly necessary, if you were to return to union with The Alien
    God upon your death (which was the goal).
    
    						Topher

    Re: Frederick
    
    Yes, I broke the bonds of matrimony -- and yes, my license plate
    is still FLOATN. Ha ha!  You've got some memory!
    
    Re: Ro
    
    Thanks!
    
    
    Jerri

Re: Donald

Thanks for what you shared -- lots of interesting things to contemplate,
and a lot of truth ringing clear (for me).

>    you read between the lines in the myth of the fall, you realize that
>    God was either in cahoots with the serpent or s/he did not consult
>    his/her omniscience concerning human psychology. Warning the children
>    in the garden not to eat the fruit of a certain tree!  What better way
>    to goad them into doing so? 

...Or else God was playing games.  This is one of many biblical questions 
I've wondered about.  I grew up with a lot of influence from churches...and
was always told not to question God.  I had lots of questions and felt very
uncomfortable and unnatural stifling them.  My beliefs have re-org'd a lot 
since then.  The books you mentioned sound very interesting to check out!

Jerri

    
    A discussion of how Jung came to the conclusion he did concerning the
    Garden of Eden thing was given in _Memories, Dreams and Reflections_,
    a book I highly recommend (IMHO :-).
    
    Guy

RE: God's motives in forbidding the fruit of the tree.
    
    If you find this kind of analysis interesting you might want to check
    out:
    
    		Steven J. Braus; Biblical Games: a strategic analysis of
    		stories in the Old Testament.  MIT Press, 1980.
    
    The author uses game theory (explaining it as he goes) to analyze
    the actions of the various "players" (God, The Serpent/Satan, Humanity,
    and various individual humans) in many of the OT stories.
    
    An interesting, rather non-standard, introduction to game theory (which
    is only incidentally or metaphorically about "games" in the usual sense
    of the word) as well as providing some food for thought (the fruit of
    the tree of knowledge? :-)) about the OT.
    
    					Topher
    

Also RE God and the serpent.

Another book that may be of interest is:

     E.J. van Wolde
     A semiotic analysis of Genesis 2-3
     Van Gorcum (The Netherlands), 1989

The author uses linguistic/semiotic techniques and models to arrive at an
interesting interpretation of Genesis 2-3. In the writer's view, the eating of
the apple can be interpreted as the first step of mankind in spiritual
development. That the apple was eaten by Eve first, was just extra evidence....
for her :-).

Arie

    Reply to .59,
    
    In the realm of myth nothing can really be certain except that the
    human mind plays an integral part of the process.
    
    Perhaps we should ask ourselves what did the human mind wish to say in
    the Genesis story? Perhaps only that the Hebrew tribal deity didn't
    like other surrounding tribal deities, conceptions and inspirations of
    other human minds.
    
    I sense a mind war. Don't you?

re: .62

    If you look at the Garden of Eden story mythologically, from a Jungian
    approach, it is symbolic of the time when we (or human consciousness as a
    whole) began our evolution.  It is the uroboric state in which there is
    no ego consciousness, no duality.  Only the state of paradise in the
    womb of the Great Mother.  The birth of consciousness begins with the
    creation of opposites, man and woman, good and evil, etc.  This phase
    ends with the separation from the womb into the world out there.  

    For a good, in depth look at the phases of the evolution of consciousness,
    read _The History and Origins of Consciousness_ by Erich Neuman.

    Terry

    
    RE: .64 Terry
    
    > ... the state of paradise in the womb of the Great Mother.  

    I really like the feeling that these words bring up for me.  And
    in addition to your question/title "Mother can you hear me?", I
    would like to add for the Great Mother, if I may...."Children can
    you hear me?".
    
    Carole

    
    Reading recommendation:
    
    	"Adam, Eve and the Serpent" by Elaine Pagels.
    
    She also is the author of "The Gnostic Gospels".
    
    Cindy

    re: last several notes on Adam & Eve, Eden, good/evil, etc...
    
    I came across a book, Teaching the Heart to Sing by Julie Redstone
    recently that offered a perspective on the above that I really like:
    
    "It has been said that humankind are fallen angels.  That once united
    with the celestial choirs and the Light and Love pervading the
    Universe, we are now submerged in limited thinking, and have become
    shadows of our real selves.  Now it is important to know that we are
    not fallen angels.  Only in the sense of having forgotten our true
    heritage have we fallen from Grace.  
    
    There is no sin involved in this, other than the sin of leaving the
    state of complete and total harmony with all that is, which is our
    *natural birthright*.  Mankind and womankind have been, are, and will
    be *greater than the angels* as we awaken to our true being.  For the
    angelic kingdom has never left the state of oneness to enter the state
    of duality that humans live in, and therefore has yet to experience the
    *full individualization* of God/Goddess-consciousness to which each of
    us is being born.
    
    We, humankind, have the honor to have chosen, and *to have been chosen*,
    to move through the sphere of duality, in order to fully emobody the
    consciousness of God within form.  I and you and all our brothers and
    sisters of the Earth are beautiful Divine images, held securely in the
    Mind of God.  And it is our destiny to realize in full consciousness
    the image which forms the ground of our individuality, and of our
    being".
    
    And one other passage somewhat related:
    
    "This is what must be understood about doubt:  that it is the fertile
    ground for the creation of faith.  That those who struggle with doubt
    are struggling to find truth and God within themselves at a deeper
    level than many who, on the surface, seem to have been given a gift of
    faith".
    
    - Karen
    
    
    

re: .65 (Carole)

    > I really like the feeling that these words bring up for me.  

      I like the sound too, and most of us probably do - but that's 
      the trap.  The path that our evolution seems to be taking us is
      forward to the Uroboric state (full circle, so-to-speak) but only 
      *after* the proper phases have been fullfilled.  To try to crawl back
      into the womb (with the weight of our ego's) will only bring us pain.
      After our separation from egoless consciousness and the birth of our 
      ego we have to 'slay' the Terrible Mother (transform) and stand on our
      own.  From there we embark on our journey to find Self.  It's a long,
      hard road, as many of us know with a lot of traps and pitfalls.  The
      Treasure that awaits when we arrive Home is something I think we
      all feel glimpses of but haven't really grabbed onto.  When we arrive
      the Great Mother (in her androgynous form) will be waiting with Love
      and with open arms.

      > "Children can you hear me?".

      Absolutely!

      Terry

    
    re:.66 (Cindy)
    
    Is that what you call a Painter pointer?
    
    :-)
    
    Guy

    
    
    RE: .68  Terry
    
    I guess I was coming from a slightly different perspective than
    you when I responded to your words.  I want to remember that I
    was birthed from the Great Mother's womb.  I want to acknowledge
    this.  Many do not do that, and I feel that this has caused much
    sorrow and pain.  I agree that we cannot go back to the womb, nor
    do I want to.
    
    C.

    Re: .63
    
    What you said is interesting.  I think any time we lock ourselves 
    into a belief system, we're playing games.  Which is not necessarily
    good or bad -- it's more a matter of how you play.  It's sort of like 
    having a palette of infinite colors, with which to paint -- and deciding 
    what you want to do with it.  The possibilities are endless, and so 
    could be the ways of exploring and looking at it -- not holding onto one 
    creation.  There are some people telling others what colors to use...and 
    some people insisting that only certain colors exist. ;-)
    
    Holding onto a set of beliefs (through myth, religion, new age 
    awareness, or whatever) seems very contrary to everything around us.  
    We are aware of so much...but we choose to block out things selectively
    and "pretend" that only certain things exist, and are true, or are
    important -- the things that fit into the reality we want to believe in 
    (instead of accepting what is at each new moment).  That pretense, with 
    such determination and energy, seems to be a great contradiction to the
    freedom we profess to have or strive for.
    
    Sometimes when I look around at people scurrying here and there, with 
    such serious faces, getting so upset over little ant hills in life 
    (which almost everything is)...insisting on how things must be...it all 
    seems like such a big drama.  Okay, let's have intermission already!! :-)
    
    Is God playing games because God is imperfect?  Is God learning?  Is
    God pretending to tell God what to do?  Strange and interesting things
    to think about.
    
    Jerri

re: .70 (Carole)

    I sensed that.  Your reply just sparked a desire to write a bit
    more.  It's a topic I've been reading a bunch on lately.

    Terry    

    
    
    Ok Terry...thanks for letting me know.
    
    Carole :-)
    
    

    Hi Karen (.67),
    
    I recently finished reading Teaching the Heart to Sing also and it
    immediately became one of my all-time favorites.  Julie Redstone will
    be at the Unicorn Bookstore in Arlington on Thursday, October 19th in
    case you're interested.  Might be a fun group-type activity.
    
    I'm looking forward to hearing her speak.
    
    Ro
    

    .74  Ro
    
    Hi Ro,
    
    Thanks for the info on Julie Redstone.  I'm marking it on my calendar -
    I'd like to go.  
    
    - Kb
    

        A couple of days ago I heard what has to be considered a RUMOR
    at this point (since it is at least second-hand information) and
    that is that the Edgar Cayce Institute (is that the name?) has
    invited Lazaris to talk to them and that he has accepted.  I don't
    know if this is true or, if it is, when or where or how this is to
    take place.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    RE: .76 Frederick
    
    This would not surprise me.  A couple of years ago I attended a
    full-day workshop in Boston sponsored by A.R.E. (Association for
    Research and Enlightenment) - the topic of which was developing
    your psychic powers.  These workshops were given around the 
    country, and one of the presenters was trance channeler Kevin
    Ryerson of "Out on a Limb" fame.  A.R.E. seems to be open to
    sponsoring and hosting like-minded folk, so their invitation to
    Jach and Lazaris is not really out of character or anything.  It
    will be interesting to see if this does happen and what is 
    created out of it.
    
    Carole

                           A Seer Out of Season 
                          The Life of Edgar Cayce
                                    by
                          Harmon Hartzell Bro, PhD
                            US $4.95 Canada $6.95
    
    Is now available from Signet Books.  This is a scholarly treatment by
    one whose credentials include the presidency of Drew University.  I'm
    halfway through it, and I highly recommend it.  
    
    Regards,
    
    Donald Reinke

    Having just joined the network, your notes on these subjects are
    like air for my curious mind. Your sharing observations on these
    controversial topics which speaking for myself, I have tried to
    put them aside and dismiss them in the past,because to accept them
    meant a cleaning house of previious helf philosopies and beliefs
    based on accepted approaches to the question"whats it all about??",as
    explainedin established mindset which we convey in everyday encounters
    with our souroundings. To expound any of these thoughts can be shocking
    and unacceptable to many frieds and acquantances. But I have accepted
    these consequences and must continue to seek out what I feel is
    truth and grow,but also to remember to question and create an acid
    test as to who benefits from this knowledge. I don't plan to pad
    anyones's nest except my own.
    
    In my case Cayce was the open sesame to a viewpoint so bizzare it
    seemed easy to disprove?? now I am hooked,even found some of Cayce's
    remedies to offer relief to physical symptoms which are simple and
    akin to old home remedies. The fact that his readings were all
    transcribbed and documented lets them stand the test of time and
    the acid test we can indicidually apply to them.
    
    Another author more current in chanelling has been RUTH MONTGOMERY-
    who has written books on her bond with the hereafter. My favorites
    are "A WORLD BEYOND', 'COMPANIONS ALONG THE WAY' also her latest
    'HERALD OF A NEW AGE'. She comes from a background of being a
    nationally syndicated political news reporter based in D.C. and
    is the last person "she feels" to become involved with chanelling
    except for a deep personal experience that set up a bond which carries
    her outside of this world.  Stimulating reading.....
    
    Peace
    
    Rog          a ned
    axt ecuecn 
                     xcept                           ,

    **This seems like the logical place to put this.***
    
    	Many years ago I read many books both by Edgar Cayce and (Seth)Jane
    Roberts.  I believe in one on Cayce's books he mentioned that the
    records of Atlantis would be found beneath the forepaw of the Sphinx.  
    
    	The following article was in the local (Gazette Telegraph)newpaper
    today in Colorado Springs:
    
    ************************************************************************
                PHARAOHS' CITY FOUND AT SPHINX'S FOOT!
    
    	Egyptologists, probing beneath a tourist village at the foot of the
    Sphinx, have found the remains of a city belonging to the
    pyramid-building pharaohs.
    	"This discovery is much more important to Egyptology than all the
    gold inTutankamun's tomb," said Zahi Hawass, antiquities director for
    the Giza pyramids and Sphinx.
    	Hawass predicted the ruins will unravel not only mysteries aboiut
    the pyramid builders but those of later civilizations.
    
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Wish there was more. 
    
    /Dan

RE: .80 (Dan)

    Assuming the report is accurate, this is very exciting whether or not
    it has anything to do with Cayce's prediction.

    Do note, however, that there is a world of difference between, "at
    the foot of the Sphinx" and "beneath the [foot] of the Sphinx."  I
    do not see that the former increases the liklihood of the latter even
    by a little.  Of course, if you are willing to accept that Cayce may
    have gotten the message a little fuzzily, then we might be encouraged
    to believe that records of Atlantis might be found in the newly
    discovered city.

					Topher

Re:                 <<< Note 4.80 by CSC32::ENTLER "The Wizard" >>>
>    Wish there was more. 
>    
>    /Dan

My newspaper had a little more information:


	    "Historians Uncover Underground City at Egypt Pyramid", 
			by Mimi Mann, Associated Press


	"Nazlett el-Sammen, Egypt - Hidden beneath a tourist village
	at the foot of the Sphinx, Egyptologists have found the
	remains of a city belonging to the pyramid-building
	pharaohs.

	"This discovery is much more important to Egyptology than 
	all the gold in Tutankamun's tomb," said Zahi Hawass, 
	antiquities director for the Giza pyramids and Sphinx...

	"Hawass predicted the ruins will unravel not only mysteries 
	about the pyramid builders but those of the civilizations 
	that followed at Giza Plateau, in the desert southwest of 
	Cairo...

	"Getting answers isn't going to be easy.  The ruins lie 
	beneath Nazlett el-Sammen, a community of 70,000 people 
	whose livelihood comes mainly from selling tacky items to 
	tourists.

	"Beginning 18 months ago, the ancient city slowly emerged as 
	laborers dug up Nazlett's neighborhoods to install sewer 
	lines financed by the U.S. Agency for International 
	Development.

	"Besides giving villagers their first sewage system, the 
	project will keep underground filth away from the Sphinx, 
	which crouches between Nazlett and pyramids.

	"As digging began, artifacts surfaced.  Uncovered early were 
	stones of what Egyptologists believe to be the Valley Temple 
	of Pharaoh Cheops, whose Great Pyramid is the last survivor 
	of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World...

	"Hawass, who announced discovery of the buried city last 
	week, said it stretches two miles and is the largest ever 
	found from the Old Kingdom...


Joe

I read this book back in 1974 and being an atheist was wonderfully suprised
by the body and depth of phenomena described therein!  I still have it on my
bookshelf.

I don't know how it compares to other books about him.

    I have been meditating for years and one of the most important things
    I've learned is to trust my gut instincts or my intuition.  By
    meditating I have opened up psychic channels which otherwise would be
    clogged with the physical perceptions of reality.  In so doing, I trust
    and have faith in God to help me with whatever problem I am working on
    and I am always guided.  
    
    Colleen Leal