T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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181.1 | | JUPITR::MOK | Charles P. Mok | Wed Mar 14 1990 02:53 | 51 |
| USA Today's Sheridan 's Odds Against Winning:
2:1 Tennessee
3:1 Stanford
La. Tech
4:1 Auburn
5:1 Gerogia
7:1 Washington
N.C. State
8:1 Texas
Virginia
10:1 UNLV
Purdue
12:1 Stephen F. Austin
Long Beach State
15:1 Iowa
Northwestern
La. State
N. Illinois
S. Carolina
18:1 Mississippi
Hawaii
20:1 Providence
Connecticut
So. Miss.
Tenn. Tech
25:1 Penn State
St. Joseph
30:1 Old Dominion
35:1 Arkansas
40:1 Clemson
50:1 Maryland
100:1 Richmond
200:1 Vanderbilt
250:1 Bowling Green
500:1 Utah
750:1 Ohio St.
Illinois
1000:1 Fla. St.
2500:1 Michigan
3000:1 Montana
4000:1 Okla. St.
5000:1 Texas Tech
7500:1 Rutgers
10000:1 DePaul
15000:1 W. Kentucky
20000:1 UCLA
25000:1 California
750000:1 Appalachian St.
1000000:1 Manhattan
|
181.2 | All hail the Champs | 49ER::GLANVILLE | 1989 49ers World Champs 1990 | Wed Apr 04 1990 21:01 | 8 |
| Congratulations to the National Championship Stanford Women's
Basketball Team! A perfect ending to a very fine season, in which
they only lost one game, on the road, by 3 points. The final was
one of the best basketball games I've seen in a long time. They
got behind twice, once by 9 points, before coming back to win. They
had never been as much as 9 points behind all season. They made
the shots, they got the rebounds when they needed it! Yow!
|
181.3 | | FTMUDG::DUGGAN | | Thu Apr 05 1990 11:01 | 13 |
| Yes, it was a good game.
I was impressed by the quality of the womens' play. I kept trying to
compare it to mens' play of about the early '60s because the women now
are about the same height and size of the men for that period, but the
comparison breaks down becausze modern players -- men and women -- are
so much more skilled at ball-handling and positioning themselves on the
court than the men of that period.
Both the semis and the final were very enjoyable to watch.
...mike
|
181.4 | Women's game is less selfish, better fundamentals ... | EARRTH::BROOKS | Sucker that stole the soul ... | Thu Apr 05 1990 12:45 | 22 |
| Women's basketball is a joy to watch, because they exhibit selflessness
and teamwork much more than men, at least by an order of magnitude.
I started watching it a few years ago when I went to Rice. The women
played better ball than the men during my soph. and junior years,
and I liked it ! Great passing, defense, and pick setting. And I
think a lot of it is due to the fact that most women can't slam
one home.
I remember a game where UT came in and blew Rice away (no real shame
in that - UT was #1 in the nation, and had a streak of 170+ straight
conference wins), and there was one possession in particular that
has stuck with me. Rice was playing great D, and UT beat it with
4 straight rifle passes that you could hardly follow, which ended
in a short jumper hitting nothing but net.
And UT was up by 25 points late in the game .....
Whew ! See how many times any men's team, at any time, will show
that kind of discipline ....
Doc
|
181.5 | | FTMUDG::DUGGAN | | Thu Apr 05 1990 12:59 | 8 |
| re .4:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said in an interview on PBS yesterday that when the
NCAA banned the dunk in college hoop it improved his game, for much the
same reasons you give. So I agree with your statement about "i think a
lot of it is due to the fact that women can't slam it home".
...mike
|
181.6 | Take away the dunk! | SASE::SZABO | | Thu Apr 05 1990 13:39 | 12 |
181.7 | | HEFTY::GUSICJ | Referees whistle while they work.. | Thu Apr 05 1990 13:59 | 15 |
|
I like the women's game too.
As for dunking, don't ban it. Instead, why don't the coaches
prohibit it. If I were coaching, I'd simply tell my kids, no dunking
or you sit. Players are not allowed to dunk in warmups, so it really
wouldn't be a big deal to stop it in games.
Basically, it's the coaches responsibility to develope the kids
fundamental-wise. I would also teach the kids to use the backboard.
I believe this is a lost art and yet it can greatly improve a players
shooting average.
bill..g.
|
181.8 | Please, dont outlaw the dunk!!!! | USRCV1::COLOTTIR | Lisa,get away from that jazzman | Thu Apr 05 1990 14:02 | 14 |
| Hawk, What the diff if a guy (or girl) puts the ball over the rim,
and drops it. Not a dunk, but in reality its the same thing. If you
want the dunk outlawed, raise the rim to 11'. Before I broke both
ankles I could dunk, and sometimes with great authority. Granted,
I still caint hit a 20' J to save my a**, but I spent more time working
on my J than I did on dunks. Why?? Cause there's not much use for
a 6'0" white guy who cain dunk but caint hit the J. Its coaching, dude,
and thats where the problem comes from. A lot of these kids are
undisciplined and uncoachable. No matter what the coach says, their
going to do what they want after practice and on the playgrounds.
BTW, all the playgrounds in my area have raised the rims to about
10'10" to save money on rims.
Rich
|
181.9 | | JUPITR::MOK | Charles P. Mok | Thu Apr 05 1990 14:03 | 2 |
| Why would the coaches ban it voluntarily if they know the crowd and
hence the customers loves it, and Dick V. hypes it, and so on.
|
181.10 | Don't outlaw the dunk, outlaw weak coaches ! | EARRTH::BROOKS | Sucker that stole the soul ... | Thu Apr 05 1990 15:14 | 35 |
| Ban the dunk ? NEVER ! The dunk is a shot that combines power and
artisry, and if used right can have a big psychological effect on
the opponent. I think it has added a lot to the game, just like
the three point shot. An dlike the three point shot, it can be abused.
but don't blame the players - blame the coaches if players are slam
happy.
If a player spends all of his time dunking, and none on his free
throws, and bricks 1-1's all day, then you bench his behind until
he puts forth a sincere effort to improve his FT %, because *anybody*
can do it if they're willing to put the time in.
Micheal Jordan is one of the most fundamentally sound players alive.
Yet we all know about his dunking ability. I remmeber a SI article
that called Elgin Baylor, Connie Hawkins, and Dr J the Father, Son,
and Holy Ghost of Hang - and they were. But if you look at each
man, they were all well skilled in the fundamentals, esp. The Doc.
It's all a mindset, and in the women's game, they have a better
mindset. Part of it comes from the inablity of most women to dunk,
ALONG with the fact that they have almost always been schooled to
be in a team mind-set. I believe that boys play a lot more one-on-one
early on, and a lot of coaches encourage one-on-one play, they
overemphasize the scorer, they shun the role player, ect.
But believe me, legislation is not the way to do it. True, Kareem
became a more complete player because of anti-duke rule (his Skyhook
was virtually completely refined by the time he entered the NBA),
but the NCAA's motives weren't that pure.
To many people, the anti-dunk rule was more of a anti-black rule,
a sort of eastblishment backlash against 'street ball' ... thank
God the rule is gone ....
DrM
|
181.11 | | SASE::SZABO | | Thu Apr 05 1990 15:16 | 14 |
181.12 | dunking is good | MSBIS2::ROBINSON | mannish boy | Thu Apr 05 1990 15:27 | 12 |
| What the heck would Kenny Walker do if they banned dunking in
the pros? He'd be selling insurance in a Connecticut suburb...
But, I can't buy into the ban dunking and the kids will use their
free time wisely theory either. If you ban dunking in the games then
it will be a taboo that will be continued outside of regulation
games.
The dunk has never been the rage in Boston because we don't have
players who are stylish dunkers. But if Jordan were a Celtic...
;-)
|
181.13 | | SASE::SZABO | | Thu Apr 05 1990 15:31 | 11 |
181.14 | from the lips of george himself | LEVERS::STROUT | 5 to 1... 1 in 5... | Thu Apr 05 1990 15:33 | 5 |
|
dunks are natural... dunks are fun... dunks are best when they're
one.. on.. one.
sean
|
181.15 | | 29637::GAULKE | | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:02 | 9 |
|
Ask Chris Laetner if dunks should be banned.
Steven
|
181.16 | | SASE::SZABO | | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:06 | 5 |
181.17 | get a job, Christian | AUNTB::HAAS | same as talking to you | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:06 | 1 |
| Laettner should be dunked.
|
181.18 | | FTMUDG::DUGGAN | | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:12 | 15 |
| re: dunking anti-black:
Kareem addressed that in his interview too.He believes that it wasn't
anti-Black so much as anti-UCLA (and anti-Alcindor). In fact he
specifically said that the rule, while placed in retaliation of him,
actually hurt the smaller players more since he, the opposing team, and
everybody in the audience KNEW he could dunk, and thus was prepared to
do other things, but that other players weren't prepared to make the
effort and discipline themselves to improve their game.
At New Mexico State during this time we had two players, Willie Ford
and Charley Criss, who were both 5'6" and who could dunk. Criss later
played with the Atlanta Hawks as a prototype Muggsy Bogues.
...mike
|
181.19 | interesting...... | SASE::SZABO | | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:18 | 1 |
|
|
181.20 | Hawk, this is what I said | USRCV1::COLOTTIR | Im Bart Simpson,who the hell r u? | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:37 | 8 |
| Hawk, I never said that I needed a dunk to be useful. I said that
I needed MORE than a dunk to be useful. I also said that I didnt
spend time working on flashy dunks because there isnt much need
for a 6' guy who couldnt hit a jumper if the hoop was 4' in diameter.
Since high school I've developed a decent outside shot and I can
still get up high enough to grab the rim and jump over taller guys.
So if you ever want to do a little 1-on-1 I'm ready for ya. :-)8^
|
181.21 | I see your point .... | LUNER::BROOKS | Sucker that stole the soul ... | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:45 | 35 |
| re .18
Nice note Mike, I find Kareem to be a fantastic person to listen
to in interviews and articles - it's a shame that many pea-brained
sportswriters were too busy trying to score points off of him in
his first few years to ask real questions.
Anyhow, I can see where you and Kareem are coming from. After all,
UCLA had already won 3 or 4 titles in a row when Alcindor showed
up, and the NCAA could see UCLA going undefeated for another three
years (they damn near did anyway). And basketball has always believed
in the theory "If ya can't beat 'em, enjoin them !" Witness the
expansion of the lane, anti-dunk, et al.
But there was defintely a cultural aspect involved in the rule as
well. It was enacted during the social upheavels of the Sixties,
and was not revoked after Alcindor left - I think it wasn't repealed
until 1975. There is a difference between shall we call it, suburban
and urban basketball, and the signature difference is the dunk.
In suburban b-ball it's a mere high-percentage shot. On the streets
it's an art form/intimidation device/momentum changer. Back in the
late 60's, (especially in light of Texas Western's win over Kentucky)
that last thing WASP America wanted to see was these black giants
dunking on 'lil Johnny's crewcut 50 times a game .... :-)
Alcindor and UCLA gave the NCAA the perfect excuse.
BTW, interesting comment about Kareem being prepared to do other
things. John Wooden always maintained that Kareem would have been
an All-American even if he was 6'2", becaus of his fantastic array
of skills (and work ethic). Lew's post-dunk-ban performance proves
it.
DrM
|
181.22 | Yo Hawk, it wasn't personal ! | LUNER::BROOKS | Sucker that stole the soul ... | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:50 | 7 |
| re .13
Hawk, I never accused you of being anti-black, becaue you want the
dunk banned ! *That* never crossed my mind ! I'm just speaking to
the NCAA's motivation. I've heard a few black fans call for the
banning of the dunk and more emphasis on the basics as well. I was
speaking to a different subject ....
|
181.23 | | SASE::SZABO | | Thu Apr 05 1990 16:56 | 5 |
181.24 | coaches and Coaches | FTMUDG::DUGGAN | | Thu Apr 05 1990 17:21 | 18 |
| re: 21: We've got to quit meeting like this!
The only thing I'll dispute is your insinuation that Texas Western
lived/died by the dunk. While I admit I'm taking what you said out of
context, I still need to say that, for the record, Don Haskins has been
-- forever -- a major opponent of the dunk. He believes it's
undisciplined.
He's also been one of the best coaches in America forever, and I'm
proud to say that he is one of three Coaches (with a capital C) that
I know personally (and have, for many years).
The other two are Norm Ellenberger and Lou Henson.
(I'm also not so proud to say that this was the year I got bigger than the
Bear.)
...mike the Aggie
|
181.25 | | SA1794::GUSICJ | Referees whistle while they work.. | Thu Apr 05 1990 18:48 | 11 |
|
Growing up in the late 60's, I always through that the dunk
was banned becasue of one man..Lew Alcindor. I never heard anything
about anyone else. It was simply an attempt to stop the unstopable.
Doc, you're still a little young to remember those days, but
Lew/Kareem and UCLA were just to much.
bill..g.
|
181.26 | | EARRTH::BROOKS | Sucker that stole the soul ... | Thu Apr 05 1990 19:02 | 33 |
| Indeed I am, although I've seen quite a lot of film of those days,
and there wasn't many college teams that could have touched UCLA
back in the good 'ole days. Nevertheless, there was indeed a racial
element to the anti-dunking rule. And it was still in effect nearly
10 years later when I was a little less young (ie. older) .... :-)
re .24
Sorry that I implied that about Texas Western. I juxtaposed the
two (perhaps wrongly), because of the impact that game had. Adolph
Rupp was one of the biggest practicing racists coaching college
basketball. He swore he'd never have a black play under him, and
his Neanderthal attitudes were a matter of public record. TW's (now
UTEP) all-black starting 5 was a well-disciplined squad, not know
for dunking displays, but they definitely brought some of "The City
Game" to the floor with them. Wasn't it Louie Dampier (I might have
the wrong guy) who found out the hard way, when he got his pocket
picked 3 or 4 times running ?
Anyhow, TW's win send a more powerful message than Rupp could have
ever sent.
BTW, there was a reunion of that championship team (I think it was
really notable because one of the stars had undergone a stroke,
and the others had railled for him), and many of the players said
that they really didn't view the game as a race or culture war,
but they were aware of the signifigance of the game, and were able
to focus strictly on the game. For that, they gave a lot of credit
to Haskins.
Anyhow, I mentioned it for social/historical context, that's all.
Doc
|
181.27 | | FTMUDG::DUGGAN | | Thu Apr 05 1990 19:19 | 18 |
| I understand that, and did when I entered it. I agree with your opinion
of Rupp as well.
I was at New Mexico State U. (40 miles north of El Paso) as a student
that year, and we were almost as proud as the folks in El Paso when the
boyz pulled it off. David Lattin, Orsten Artis, Neville Shed, Louis
(Flip) Badouin (a white sub who later became a good friend of mine
and a HS coach in Albuquerque) and what HAS to be the best name EVER
for a basketball player... Willie Cager! (Sports Illustrated pointed
that out in a sidebar in their "College Basketball" issue in 1965.)
(They picked TWC to get to the tournament but not to go very far.)
Yes, they had a reunion recently. The Denver Post carried a story
about it last week during the Final Four hoopla. (To my shame I can't
remember which team member had the stroke but I believe it was Willie.)
BTW, Nolan Richardson played at TWC for The Bear two years earlier than
this.
|
181.28 | 3 point shooting skills are a factor | DELNI::D_ANDERSON | International Eng. Development | Fri Apr 06 1990 11:49 | 24 |
| Back to the women's play...:-) I couldn't help but notice all the 3
pointers being made. They showed a stat about the GA Tech's mens team
(lethal weapon 3) and compared Stanford (lethal weapon 4). GA Tech shot 40%
Stanford women 42%. I think they were 11 for 23.
Also there are 3 differnces in the rules, two of which I don't
understand why. First the woman have a 30 second shot clock versus 45
for the men, and the second is that there is no 10 second line for the
women. The basketball for women is 1" diameter smaller (I can
understand this and appreciate it). But why not have all the other
rules the same?
Thought it was a good game, and resembles the kind of play you can see
in the DEC women's league. In fact lots of college players come to work
for DEC just for this opportunity, we are trying to draft Azzi
now.......many :-)'s here!!!
Dee
BTW: Last year in the 3 point finals, Carleen scored 10, and Wess had 14
(his last round, I think he had 18 in his second round). Be interesting to
see the difference this year since the mens finalist will only have to
shoot 2 rounds.
|
181.29 | | HEFTY::GUSICJ | Referees whistle while they work.. | Fri Apr 06 1990 13:01 | 19 |
|
re: women's rules
I can say that the women led the way when they adopted the 30
second clock. This rule was adopted because the women's game was
turning into one massive 4 corners bore. A lot of womens teams
would simply hold the ball for entire periods preventing the other
team from even touching it. So, in came the 30 second clock to
simply prevent one team from stalling an entire half.
As for no 10 second count in the backcourt, I suspect that this
rule was adopted way back when women didn't have the same ball handling
skills. Now though, I think they should go to a ten second count.
They also might of done away with the backcourt count because of
the 30 second clock. "Hey, they have 30 seconds with the ball.
If they want to use it all in the backcourt, that's their choice."
bill..g.
|
181.30 | | STAR::YANKOWSKAS | Play like Mays, run like Hayes | Fri Apr 06 1990 13:06 | 5 |
| Question -- is the 3-point line the same distance in women's college
basketball as it is in men's college basketball?
py
|
181.32 | | SASE::SZABO | | Fri Apr 06 1990 13:59 | 5 |
181.34 | half court sho court shots wilonly count for 1 point in the contest | DELNI::D_ANDERSON | International Eng. Development | Fri Apr 06 1990 15:45 | 14 |
| Same 3 point line for men and women. In the contest it will be the
college line....I do not know of any gyms that have an NBA line except those
that have NBA teams play at them....Boston Garden was not available and
I could not promise that I would be able to sell it out.........:-) You
can stand as far behind the line as you want though, just not in front
of it!!!!
We use the 10 second line when we play but no shot clock, because we don't
have a clock!!!! Wish we did though. Our scores our usually in the
40-50 range for this reason.
Dee
|
181.35 | sorry about that jumble, saw hawk soaring in those 3 pointers | DELNI::D_ANDERSON | International Eng. Development | Fri Apr 06 1990 15:47 | 2 |
| What a mess...half court shots will only count for one point in the
contest, unless it is the money ball, than you get 2!
|
181.36 | | SASE::SZABO | | Fri Apr 06 1990 16:29 | 6
|