Conference 7.286::sports_90

    
    
     Now that Penn st. jioned the big10(11or12). N.D. should drop one
    of the big10 teams of their schedule in the future.I dont want N.D.
    to have that many big10 teams on its future schedule.
    
    
    P.S. N.D.should let the P st. contract to expire. 

    Why drop anyone?  Purdue is a great instate rivalry, and I think they
    will start playing IU also in a few years?  And Michigan, MSU and Penn 
    State are all good teams and like all other Big Ten teams are academi-
    cally the kind of schools ND would like association with, not Miami or
    Oklahoma.  Why not even join the Big Ten :)  It may get too large from
    the Big Ten point of view, but hey, the day of the independence is soon
    to be over, with the Penn State move, and ND cannot stand by itself
    against, uh, the tide of history...
    
    Charles

    ND 24
    CU 17
    
    Nebraska Marty

    ND 31
    CU 13
    
    Nebraska Bob

    ND   24
    CU   13
    
    Nebraska Keith

The Buffalos roam:
	CU 33
	ND 17

TTom

    
    I will take the 11, 18 or 16 points on any of those. The game will be
    close.

      Kick butt buffs!!!!!!
    
    		Tj

    Yea !!!   Go BUFFS !!!   Kick Some A$$ !!!
    
    Big Game

    Hey, now that there is a Big-11 conference since Penn State joined
    the Big-10, wouldent it be great if Notre Dame joined t the Big-8 and
    made it the Big-9. Yea, that's the ticket! Then Miami could join
    the WAC and they wouldent have to change the conference name at all.
    
    						Nebraska Marty

    
    				Orange Bowl
    
    My condolences to you CU fans. I know the dissapointment. I know it
    first hand. I'm a Cornhusker fan so I know what it is like to have my
    team blow the national championship. The hurt afterwards is terrible.
    Thus, when I have heard the CU fans being so confident going into the
    Orange Bowl I would just shake my head with a knowing smile on my face.
    And I knew that CU being a very good but a one dimentional (Run) team
    would problably get beat. 
    
    CU played a good game. Blowing the oportunities in the first half
    killed them. You cant do that against quality teams and win in most
    cases.
    
    The obvious problem CU had was what I spoke about in 27.29 - passing!!
    CU's passing game was hapless and they had much trouble stopping the
    ND passing game.
    
    CU has nothing to be ashamed of. They had a great season and, yes, SAL
    would have been extremely proud of them - win or loose the Orange Bowl.
    
    	WARNING - CU fans may not want to read what follows. Just type
                  NEXT to skip it. And dont say I dident warn you if you
                  do read the rest of this note !!!
    
    
    First off, now that the season is over and SAL has been an inspiration
    to his teamates, LET THE KID DIE PLEASE. The rest of the country
    outside of Colorado is sick to death of hearing about it. Sal would
    have been proud. Now he's gone, just let him rest in peace.
    
    Holtz hit the nail right on the head with just about everything he said
    this week. He saw all the game films. He knew why CU was where they
    were. His statements about CU living a lie this season and ND taking
    over in the second half were exactly right.
    
    CU went undefeated because they have been on a mission. Win it for SAL.
    The CU fans have underestimated this. CU has played above their
    physical talent largely because of it. CU is a very good team but not
    a national champion calaber team. Holtz knew this. CU is vulnerable to
    the pass and their passing game stinks. They are way to one-dimentional
    to win the national championship.
    
    As I stated in .30, NU is not a top-10 team this year. And CU literally
    struggled to get by them AT HOME while they were flying high with
    emotion. Holtz saw whe CU NU films. He knew this.
    
    Lets face it Colorado and Nebraska fans, the Big-8 is out of stride and
    a cut below now. But we all know that what goes around, comes around.
    The Big-8 will again be a top conference but some modernization must
    take place.
    
    I still say that the best team did not represent the Big-8 in the
    Orange Bowl. But it is a moot point with Nebraskas showing against FSU.
    Again lets face it, the better Big-8 teams cant match up to the
    national powerhouses who have pro style offenses. I know that Barry
    Switzer would agree with me as he saw some of his great Okie teams
    loose to pro style Miami.
    
    CU will be back next year and will challenge for the Big-8 title again.
    However, SAL will not die again next year, the Nebraska game is in
    Lincoln, and this years young Husker squad should be better next year.
    I CANT WAIT. Bring on the Buffs!!! Go Big Red. Even though the Big Red
    has a red face now. I hope Osborne makes some big changes!!!
    
    						Nebraska Marty

    Marty,
    
    	Urinate up a rope and bark at the moon!  We don't want your
    condolences Mr. All-knowing.  There's nothing I hate worse than
    "I told you so".  Let us smolder in peace. 
    
    	Whichever way the CU players want to handle his death is their
    own business.  "Living a lie" my a$$!
    
    Claybone

    I have to agree with Clay on this one...where do you get off saying the
    best big 8 team didn't play in the Orange bowl when Nebraska looked
    like SMU yesterday.
    
    If NU was the best the Big Eight had to offer, then how come they
    didn't beat CU...I'll help ya with that...because CU beat the snot out
    of NU, that's why.
    
    JoJ
    
    

    Won't it be great to watch CU go to Lincoln next year and rub the
    Cornhuskers' noses in the dirt again?
    
    Cowboy
    

    In the NU-FSU game yesterday Tahan Lewis, NU corner, got run over by 
    some running back. Merlin Olson said something like "Lewis came up to 
    make the hit but got left with a footprint in his chest!!" I was 
    rooolllliiinnnggg!!
    
    the devil dog
    
    p.s. Congrats Marty on NU's super season, they really showed a lot of
    emotion yesterday. 

    
    Marty, after yesterday's non-performance by the Huskers, I thought
    you'd show at least a little humility.  There's no question that the
    Big 8 is down, but don't use it as an excuse to hammer Colorado. 
    Colorado has nothing to be ashamed of, unfortunately Nebraska can't
    make that claim.
    
    And as for your ability to come to grips with the whole Sal Aunese
    thing, why don't you take your own advice and let it die.  Please...
    
    glenn

    Chill out dudes !!!   I dident want to discuss this NU and Big-8
    stuff here because this is the ND notesfile. Therefore I only placed
    a note about CU vs ND in this note.
    
    Did you guys read notes 27.29 thru 27.31 in the Big-8 note??? It would
    appear not. Either that or your emotionalism made you hear only what
    you wanted to hear. I addressed a wide range of topics includeing
    the Huskers and the Big-8 in general. Why are you discussing this
    here where the ND fans will barf because they dont really care. Well,
    since you seem to now be boycotting the Big-8 note, you have forced
    my hand. Sorry ND fans...
    
    What we have here is a situation where an opinion besides your own is
    treated like mud by you. And you dont pay attention to the whole of
    the notes I write on this subject. You react emotionaly and pick out
    only that which YOU disagree with.
    
    Tonight I was listening to KOA Denver. The Jim Turner and Sandy Kleft (???)
    sports call in show. Do you know what they said about the Buffs? They said
    that for next year the Buffs are solid but will need a lot of help in the
    defensive backfield and at reciever. This totally backs up what I said
    about CU's inability to pass effectively and defense the pass.
    
    And this is not a reflectin solely on CU. It's the Big-8 style of play
    in general. Read notes 27.29 and 27.30 carefully !!!
    
    Here, I'll help you: The following are my statements about the Husker
    game, if you could call it that, and the Big-8 in general taken from
    note 27.*
    
           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< SON OF SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 27.30                  ****  BIG-8  SPORTS  ****                   30 of 41
CSC32::M_HENDERSON "Oh Well, Try Again Next Year"    37 lines   1-JAN-1990 23:35
                              -< FSU 41   NU 17 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    				Fiesta Bowl
    
    Maaaannnnn, is that FSU QB a great one. Awesome! He made the Husker
    backfield look like a bunch of cheerleaders. Willis - 421 yards, 5 TD's
    and zip interceptions. The young NU backfield was helpless. Willis was
    also very courageous bacuase he spent half the night on his back
    due to the NU line and linebackers were all over him. But this dident
    rattle him in the least. Normally if you pressure the QB like that you
    can stop the passing game. Not this guy. Can you believe Willis and
    Gdowski have sat the bench the last 3 years? Unbelievable !!!
    
    How about that first quarter. It's obvious Osborne knew he had to pull
    out all the stops to win. And Bowden came back with a roosky of his
    own. At the end of the first quarter I thought it was going to be a
    battle to the end.
    
    Then Willis took over and it dident take long to see just how good
    FSU is. I believe they would have won against anyone. They wont get
    number one but I think they are the best team in the country. You saw
    what they did to the Huskers. And while the Huskers are not as good as
    in past years, they still arent duck soup.
    
    Speaking of that, I dont think NU is a top-10 team this year. They are
    still a good team but not the traditional powerhouse people are used to
    seeing in NU. However, they are a young team by Nebraska standards.
    
    Nebraska has averaged 12 passes a game this year. Osbornes offensive
    scheme is a good one to throw from. I think that if they averaged 20
    to 25 passes a game they would be a much better team. Also they should
    work on backfield recruiting. I'm sure they will.
    
    I think you will see Osborne make some adjustments. But not any major
    changes - unfortunately. One thing is for sure: THE HUSKERS WILL BE
    BACK!!!!
    
    						Nebraska Marty
    
           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< SON OF SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 27.29                  ****  BIG-8  SPORTS  ****                   29 of 41
CSC32::M_HENDERSON "Celts of '86 - Greatest Ever"    24 lines   1-JAN-1990 23:09
                            -< Big-8 Behind Times >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, the bowl games are over and BOTH Big-8 teams loose. 
    
    The Big-8 has obviously fallen off. I noticed a patern in both the
    Orange Bowl and Fiesta Bowl. It has to do with passing. Both offense
    and defense.
    
    Neither CU or NU could stop their opponents passing game. It killed
    both teams. CU's passing game was virtually worthless against both
    ND and NU. Nebraska's passing game was better than in the past this
    year but not great. Same goes with Oklahoma. The pattern in college
    football the past few years has been that the pro sytle offenses have
    been the powerhouses. Miami, Fla State etc. Also ND has had an
    extremely balanced attack with a real good passing game.
    
    NU, OU, and CU dont defend the pass well because the Big-8 is 15 years
    behind the times. It is not a passing conference overall. Yes, there
    are a couple of teams who throw a lot, but the Big-8 is still known as
    a rushing conference.
    
    The Big-8 needs to modernize !!! Untill Osborne, McCarney, and the OU
    coach realize this we will see todays results repeated again and again
    on future Bowl days.
    
    						Nebraska Marty
    
    Glenn, and the rest of your CU fan friends, I believe these statements
    show a degree of humility coming from a VERY proud and competitve
    individule as well as a realistic grip on what has happend to Big-8
    football. There are already some who have agreed to one degree or
    another in the Big-8 notesfile where this is being discussed. Or
    perhaps you dont read that file anymore??
    
    Not_A_"Know_It_All"_But_A_Know_It_Some,
    
    						Nebraska Marty

    By the way, my statement about NU being the best team in the Big-8
    this year was dumb and emotional. Absolutely !!! Really dumb Marty,
    really dumb, no question.
    
    Egg on my face for that one. And by the way...
    
    ...that old familiar dish which I have eaten a lot of through the years
    still tastes the same - CROW, YUCK!!!
    
    						Nebraska Marty

    
    Sorry if I overreacted, Marty.  Of course I welcome your comments on
    the state of the Big 8 at any time, and I agree that the style of play
    in the conference has become outdated.  My only objections were to your 
    comments on the Aunese situation, which I agree has become overblown 
    but which you've continued to perpetuate.  Your use of the form feed to
    hide those comments was considerate of those who might be offended
    (which I'm not), but it certainly is not going to prevent a reaction
    from those who read them and disagree.  Don't take it personally that
    I've only reacted where I disagree; it implies that in general I agree 
    with the rest.
    
    Again, I am in no way trying to suppress those feelings with which I
    disagree.  In kind, if I react strongly where I believe you've gone out 
    on a limb, I hope that you will extend the same courtesy.
    
    Good luck next year.
    
    glenn

    Marty,
    
    	When I hit next unseen yesterday morning, this note came
    	up first.  I can only assume you entered .11 in this note
    	prior to entering the notes in the big 8 conference note.
    	If you didn't want it discussed here, you should have
    	entered .11 in the big 8 note.
    
    	If you don't want disagreement with your notes, don't
    	enter any.  Hiding it with a form feed doesn't protect
    	your notes from debate.
    
    Claybone

	I'm a Notre Dame fan AND a Colo. Buff fan. For the Orange Bowl, I was
for CU, because they still had a chance at the National Title. If NU had been
the one with the shot at the title, I'd have been rooting for Notre Dame. As it
was, as the first half was winding down, I turned to my buddy who was over to
the house watching the game and said `CU is history.' The score was still 0-0,
but I knew you just cannot blow that many scoring opportunities against Notre
Dame, and then think you have any chance at all to win

As the Jests always say...... Nexted Year.

Mike JN

    It's cool guys, just as long as we all know where we stand, or sit,
    whatever.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    could anyone point me to the note(s) that make a strong arguement for
    ND winning the National title?  
    
    Can't seem to find that yellin' match...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Chip

    thanks Paul,
    go Irish

>    could anyone point me to the note(s) that make a strong arguement for
>    ND winning the National title?  

There is none.  There are notes with a couple of weak arguments floating 
around.
Dan

    
    So where's the strong argument for Miami???? Just because they beat
    the number one team? They only played one other tough opponent during
    the season and they lost. The only thing that I've read about in
    this forum is how much of a jerk Lou Holtz is, does he strap on
    a helmet? Say what you wan't about the man, but I can say this much
    the guy's a winner and he doesn't take any guff from his players.
    I wonder if the same can be said about the coach of the Hurricanes.
    A team of showboat hotshot's who beat up on the East Carolina's
    and Cincinatti's of the world, get up for a couple of tough ones
    and walk away with a mythical trophy that some donut munching, cofee
    slurping journalist's awards them. It's a farce. It is most years
    anyway.
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    Notre Dame drops Miami from its hallowed schedule, 1991.
    
    (Paraphrased):  "We'd like to direct attention to the schools more
    closely aligned with our academic philosophies."
    
    (Translation):  Cincinnati.
    
    
    glenn
    

    So Glenn,
    
    What's your point?  ND plays 9 bowl opponents out of 11 games, and
    that FACT gets absolutely s**t value from the sportswriters and
    all the experts (i.e. ND haters, like Dan).  It seems like folks
    would rather have teams play patsies all year, have 1, maybe 2 tough
    games, then win a bowl game against a lower ranked opponent, and
    scream into the air with the #1 finger waggling.
    
    I cain imagine the howling by the ND haters if ND played a real
    patsy schedule, went undefeated and got the champeenship - you'd
    all be crying and whining about what a scam it was.  ND is,
    unfortunately for fans of college football, possibly changing to
    go with the flow.  Yeah, instead of playing tough schedules and
    getting no credit, why not play patsies and get praised.
    
    JD

    JD, you're better off watching your hair grow!  :-)
    
    HTH.
    
    Hawk

    RE: 29
    Good point.  I would think a season would be measured by how strong a 
    team finished the season, not by how good they were before the first
    kick of the season.
    
    I think the polling of teams should take place AFTER the last game of
    the season, before the bowls.  The teams strenght at that point is
    accurate.  the team that ends the season the strongest should be at the
    top of the hill (FSU?), not some milktoast bunch of yaps that upset
    (yes, it was an upset, the guys were bound to lose one game in two
    years...) another team (once).
    
    It seems ND got ripped off by the same game that used to help them, 
    over-rated(ness).
    
    Sheesh, and I'm a ND fan too.
    
    Chip

    JD, my point is covered in 96.57, where I give credit to Notre Dame for
    their schedule.  It's just that when I weigh *all* the variables, it's
    not enough for me to declare Notre Dame champions, especially when
    Miami held the scheduling argument last year with wins over Florida 
    State, Michigan, Nebraska, etc., but Notre Dame held the head-to-head.
    And I was in here earlier this year defending Notre Dame's selection
    last year even though they only had to beat West Virginia to wrap up
    the title.  I really think I'm being pretty objective about this. 
    
    I'm not coming from Dan's perspective on this.  I don't have anything
    against Notre Dame personally, although I do feel that Notre Dame's
    dropping of Miami from their schedule in 1991 is blatantly
    hypocritical, especially considering Holtz' "scheduling" argument. 
    He's really going to be pissing and moaning (in the event that a
    playoff system is not adopted) if slighted in the polls in favor of
    Miami in the 90's, but he won't have a head-to-head matchup as proof, 
    and he'll only have himself to blame.
    
    I would be interested in hearing some of Dan's stories about the
    on-going joke amongst ex-Irish about the officiating, if he has time.
    I agree that Notre Dame has received some benefits in the final polling
    (read 1966, 1977) but I don't believe that that courtesy has extended 
    to the field, at least not in my lifetime.
    
    glenn
    

    Last year, the scheduling arguement doesn't hold up, either.  Notre
    Dame beat the #1 team, the #2, The #3 team (Miami, USC, Virginia),
    plus Michigan, Michigan State, and I think and/or Alabama/Penn
    State/Pitt.
    
    The truth is ND always plays a tough schedule (no matter what Dan
    spouts).  And last year ND had *0* losses, Miami *1*.  If Colorado
    had beaten ND this year, they would have been #1, because they would
    have *0* losses, and Miami *1*.  Plain and simple.  And with ND
    dropping Miami, it leave ND with 8 bowl teams in 11, it leave Miami
    2 in 11 games - so that arguement washes too.
    
    The only folks who suffer from the proliferation of patsy schedules,
    are the fans, and it is us, the fans, along with the media, and
    the money grubbing NCAA, that has made rankings and bowls and #1
    so lucrative, so pressureful, that the emphasis isn't necessarily
    on competition, but on end results.  
    
    JD

    JD, good points.  You too, Digger.
    
    Dan, your uncontrolled bias against ND is pure hogwash.  If you
    don't stop spouting such drivel, me and Digger will sit on you.
    And JD will be the official timer on how long it takes for all your
    hot air to hiss out!
    
    :*)
    
    Lee

    
    What you rah rah ND boys are forgetting is 11/25. Head to Head means
    everything. It's not the number 1 tiebreaker in the NFL for nothing.
    Miami blasted ND. ND didn't score an offensive TD. ND didn't beat 
    themselves with TO like Miami did against FSU. Miami flatout beat 
    them defensively, offensively and special teams also. Yes there is some
    merit to ND's stronger schedule but when you look at the comparsion
    of abilties demostrated head to head no way ND can cry foul.
    
    As I have said before anywhere, anytime Miami by 14 over ND.....
    ND no passing game will kill them everytime. The only hope they
    have against Miami is to play their best defensive game possible
    and get the ball in the Rocket's hand 40 times and hope he breaks
    a couple.....
    
    mike

    RE .35
    
    Turnovers are part of the game and FSU makes a lot of them happen!
    
    FSU gained over 350 yards against Miami, including a 99yd drive.
    If Miami is #1, how could their vaunted defense allow this?
    
    Bob V.
    

    
    True TO are part of the game and FSU made them happen. The 99 yard
    drive was spearheaded by a great call for a bomb on first down from
    the endzone. Miami's defense faced a great passing offense with just
    enough running to keep them honest. over 350 yards is alot not but
    a big deal in this day and age unless yor passing game or running
    game alone nets that much yardage.
    
    The difference is that Miami turned the ball over twice inside the ten
    along with other TO. Inside the 10 means that atleast they were
    threating to score more points than they did. Notre Dame never threaten
    to score in the Miami game except late in the game when they were
    thwarted at the 8 yard line on 4th down....
    
    mike
    

    Mike C.,
    
    But schedule helps in games like 11/25.  Miami had a bye and always
    tough San Diego State (or Long Beach st, something like that), ND
    had Penn State, at Penn State teh week before, and the week before
    that they played also (not sure against who).  Don't you think it
    helps to have the rest and patsy schedule when preparing for one
    of your 2 big games of the year?
    
    JD

    
    Granted JD, of course it helped Miami. But we can't forget the other
    side of the argument that says playing the best should keep you on
    top of your game because you have too. Ok 10 games between the two
    teams 5 at home 5 away, who do you think will win the series???
    
    mike

    re .41:
    
    Good answer!

    
       Be careful Paul. That's at least 2 junk notes within 
    a week of each other :^>
    
    Bull
    

    >And with ND
    >dropping Miami, it leave ND with 8 bowl teams in 11, it leave Miami
    >2 in 11 games - so that arguement washes too.

I believe Miami had 4 bowl opponents, if that means anything.  I mean, a
team like Air Force made a bowl and got whipped.  Are they a quality
opponent for Notre Dame?  On the level with, say, Florida State?  No,
but under this new hokey system, you just equated them.

Someone ranked schedules by strength in USA Today recently.  Notre
Dame had a commendable 81.xx.  USC was a little higher than that, I
believe.  Miami had a 76.yy.  It was an objective, but imperfect system
to quantify schedule strength.  

I am not nearly impressed enough by the strength of schedule argument
to ignore the fact that when push came to shove, Miami kicked NDs
ass all over the field.  It takes bias to really believe that ND was the
better team and/or deserves #1.

Dan

    >But schedule helps in games like 11/25.  Miami had a bye and always
    >tough San Diego State (or Long Beach st, something like that), ND
    >had Penn State, at Penn State teh week before, and the week before
    >that they played also (not sure against who).  Don't you think it
    >helps to have the rest and patsy schedule when preparing for one
    >of your 2 big games of the year?

If I'm going to believe this excuse, than Lou Holtz deserves to be fired.
If he can't get his team up for the Miami game, knowing the stakes, than
what kind of coach is he?

Dan

    
     N.D. had to get ready game by game and miami had all year to get
    ready that is why fs beat them...
    
    
    
    
     Help help help any basketball coaches availeble.Dump digger....
    
    

    The comments in this note are unbelievable!
    
    Aside from a VERY controversial 1-point win AT South Bend, Notre
    Dame has not even come close to giving MIAMI a game in the last
    five years. (and if not for that "loss", MIAMI in now national
    champion three years running)
    
    Tony Rice would be lucky to make water-boy on the Hurricanes and
    you want to argue that you have a better team ? 
    
    Lou Holtz makes a fool of himself on national television and you
    have the nerve to complain about the "attitude" in MIAMI?
    
    Bill Walsh, after watching ND beat Colorado, said, "There is no
    question that MIAMI is the best college football team in the country".
    His comments were echoed by almost every nationally known football
    commentator. 
    
    It seems that everyone in the country thinks its' obvious that MIAMI
    is better than ND, except the WHINING IRISH alumni !!
    

    
    Classiest coach of New Year's Day:  Bobby Bowden.
    
    
    glenn
    

    re .47
    
    Most of the folks in here aren't ND alumni.  I certainly am not.
    I've never even been to Indiana.
    
    Dan -
    
    I never equated Air Force to Florida State.  But that's a typical
    response from you.   Dan, you hate, hate, hate the Irish.  Christ,
    at the Rat, you were still whining about John Huarte and Hornung
    winning Heismans, and that happened 25+ years ago!
    
    
    So dan, why doesn't strength of schedule count?  I'll ask you a
    question, if Clemson went undefeated, and in the course of the season,
    never played a top ranked team, including the bowl game, and they
    won the national champeenship as the only undefeated team, would
    you still say the strength of sched didn't count for anything. 
    Especially if one of your teams, like USC or Miami finished 2nd.
    Huh Dan?  I'm waiting on that one.
    
    I haven't whined about the ratings.  I accepted it.  I've just argued
    that strength of schedule, plus quality opponents, should be taken
    into account.  Look no further than BYU's national champeenship.
     Hey, using the Dan theory of schedule don't matter, then BYU was
    the best team that year.
    
    JD

    re. Mike C
    
    Mike , I have to agree with you as you know I am A big N.D, fan
    I am speaking for myself and am telling you ,your team kicked the
    ever living s*it out of my irish and deserve every vote in the land
    as #1 .........The Irish lost to Miami so they should'nt even be
    considered for the champonship at all !!!!@!!!!
    
    
    Irish Tom
    
    
    
    

    	JD it wasn't the Rat it was the Bull.  Although when you consider
    the lighting and dirty floors it's an understandable mistake.  Don't
    come down to hard on Dan I hear he's seeking help for his problem.
    I hear he joined the Lou Holtz Sensitivity Training Course.  Way
    to go Dan!  CONGRATS!
    
    				/Don

    Ha ha ha, I wish I'd seen Dan whining about Huarte and Horning!
    What a memory, Dan.  
    
    Thanks, JD.  Good 'ole Objective Dan isn't biased, he just lets
    emotion taint his views!!  :*)
    
    Lee, who thinks ND is #1 cause they are.

    >So dan, why doesn't strength of schedule count?  
    >Especially if one of your teams, like USC or Miami finished 2nd.
    >Huh Dan?  I'm waiting on that one.
    
    JD, I never said strength of schedule didn't count.  I said it's
    insignificant relative to the serious whupping that Notre Dame received
    at the hands of Miami.  Do you disagree with that?
    
    BTW, Miami is not "one of my teams".  I like USC and Rutgers.  It might
    sound as if I were rooting for Miami, because anything which isn't
    overwhelming praise of Notre Dame is taken to be criticism of them by
    their fans.
    
    >Hey, using the Dan theory of schedule don't matter, then BYU was
    >the best team that year.
    
    1- *I* would never claim that BYU was #1 that year.
    2- *I* have never said that strength of schedule doesn't matter.
    3- *I* would rely on much more than just best record to determine #1.
    
    Dan
    

================================================================================
Note 59.53                   NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                    53 of 53
HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Some folks trust in reason"       22 lines   8-JAN-1990 10:15
                 -< You root for ND or you take your chances >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   1- *I* would never claim that BYU was #1 that year.
>   2- *I* have never said that strength of schedule doesn't matter.
>   3- *I* would rely on much more than just best record to determine #1.
    
>   Dan
    
	I guess you would have to say the *I*'s have it Dan.

    
    How is N.D. doing in recruiting of high school stars? All I saw
    that they have two USATODAY off.linemen.
    
    jim
    
    

    National Letter of Intent Day in football in February 14, we'll
    know more then.
    
    John

Look for a kid named Law from the same state to be signed by N.D.
This kid as broken just about every high school record there is.....
He was thinking about going to Ohio State, but Lying Lou has him paid off!! ;^)

Monty

                                            
                                             25 Jan 90
    
    
    I hereby state my intentions to watch foo'ball again next season.
    
    
                                             signed,
    
                                              -Dick
                                                      

    
    
    rep57
    
     I heard law say he would like to attend N.D. in october on ESPN
    scholastic sports magazine when they feature him.
    
      jim
    
    

    Just heard on the sports new tonight that Notre Dame has just
    inked a five-year contract with NBC granting the peacock network
    *exclusive* rights to televise Notre Dame football games.
    
           *** For between $60,000,000 and $75,000,000 ***
    
    That's right, between 60 and 75 MILLION dollars.
    
    Good thing Notre Dame is interested in the academic and social
    well-being of its football players and is not just grabbing for
    all the massive tube bucks it can get.
    
    Boy, would I ever feel *USED* if I played football at good ol' ND.
    
    Bob Hunt

    ...and NBC reported this morning that ABC will take legal action to
    stop this deal because it violates their billion $ exclusive CFA deal. 
    Afterall, Notre Dame, home or away, is part of CFA...or are they too
    elite?  
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I heard that it was 40 million. Either way a sweatheart of a deal.
    I doubt that ABC has a pray. Another top school is also in negotiations
    with one of the networks for a simular deal.
    
    my guess is CBS with Miami....
    
    As if ND wasn't on tv enough already. oh well I guess I'll get more
    yard work done next fall....
    
    mike

Well, if their competitive advantage wasn't already enough to buy a national
title, now they can step right up to the ranks of the NFL with that contract
and exposure.  With the built-in advantages they own, ND has to be 
considered the national title favorite for the next 5 to 10 years.  I hope they
hire their old coach back.

You should have heard the ND representative on the radio last night, talking
about this deal.  He was all weepy over the fact that some ND fans complain
that they couldn't see a particular game with it not being on national
TV and sold out stadiums and all.  All this is just to make those poor
fans and/or alums happy again, because there was one game which wasn't
nationally televised last year.  Pity the poor fans who get sucked into this
sanctimonious bullshit.

Dan

    Dan,
    
    Tough cookies.  And this from a guy who's a Yankee fan, a team that
    screwed their fans by signing a zillion dollar TV deal.
    
    Dan, if ND has the title locked up, as you keep  slinging, they
    would have won it this year.
    
    
    Your just jealous cause USC caint seem to beat the Irish lately
    ;-)
    
    And I'm sure if USC or Miami had inked a deal, you'd be in defending
    it.
    
    Sarge

================================================================================
LUDWIG::CLAYBROOK                                    24 lines   7-FEB-1990 07:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Notre Dame has struck a deal with NBC starting in 91, the same
    time ABC gets the CFA rights. All ND home games will be televised
    on NBC nationally. In my mind this is a good move, the way ABC was
    gonna do it, you would only see 2 maybe 3 nationally telivised games
    a season and the rest would be regional, I like B.C. and Penn ST
    and Syracuse, but I also enjoy watching teams around the country
    like Alabama, Florida ST etc. USA TODAY thinks that Miami, Pitt
    and Syracuse might try to come up with their own contract, I'd say
    watch Miami strike a deal with CBS. That would really disrupt ABC's
    plan, even though they will still go on with it. Speaking of CBS,
    One of the people who negotiated for ND says CBS was caught sleeping
    that they could have very well tried to negotiate also, but they
    never heard from them, but now watch for them to contact Miami,
    the CFA and ABC contracts were sent out to the schools Oct 24th,
    so if the schools have already signed the contract they can't try
    for there own tv contract, ND says they wanted to wait before they
    signed their contract. Total revenue from the deal is 30 million
    15 million getting divided up between the visiting schools. ND says
    that the majority of the money is going to needy students, and the
    Miami Athletic director says that they have not signed the contract
    yet, hello CBS. Should be interesting to see what Miami does.
    
                                                    Dan 
    
    

    
    JD, you took the words right out of my mouth.  It's the old New York
    Yankees Competitive Advantage Syndrome in action again!  Does anybody
    really believe that teams like the Yankees, Celtics, Lakers, 
    Canadiens, and Fightin' Irish haven't realized an advantage over the 
    years because of their immense national popularity?
    
    Unfortunately, I see nothing illegal with what Notre Dame has done. 
    Notre Dame did *not* renew with the CFA from what I've read, and were 
    only 1 of 64 teams not to do so.  The courts ruled some years back, in 
    favor of Oklahoma and one other school (?), that the individual colleges 
    are not bound to TV contracts signed by the NCAA or any other involuntary 
    association or conference alignment.  This is how the CFA came about in
    the first place.  Notre Dame has made use of their huge popularity and 
    the forces of a free market to gain a financial advantage, just as we 
    see happening in the professional leagues (excepting the NFL), and 
    probably a competitive one, too.  I think the only argument now is
    whether ABC was misled by the CFA, and they would have every right to
    be angry about that.
    
    It definitely ain't good for college football, though.
    
    glenn
    

    	This was the fear a lot of colleges had when the court ruled
    against the NCAA being able to regulate the television schedules
    of its members.  Where would a young prospect go given his choice.
    To a team that's in television every week, or to one with less
    exposure?  Hey maybe all the major colleges should hold a high school
    draft?  Like the NFL.  Of course that would be admitting they're
    a big business, which they are anyway.
    
    				/Don

       This is just another case of people screaming 'wolf'! Does anyone
    think ND is going to sign the 4 best Qbs coming out of High School
    next year? These kids know they all can't play at the same time.
    This is the same argument as the anti-Free agent babble we hear
    in pro sports.
                                    Denny

    
    Notre Dame's all home games on T.V.!  Geez, not "everyone" wants to see
    these guys every weekend!  Give us a choice!!!!
    
    B.A.

    B.A,
    
    ND's home games will be on NBC so on those weekends you'll have
    lots of alternatives on ABC, ESPN and perhaps CBS if CBS signs a
    similar deal with another team.  ABC has a contract with the CFA,
    Big Ten and Pac Ten so there'll be lots of other games on.  I'd
    be willing to bet that ABC will try to carry as many Notre Dame
    games as possible when the Irish are on the road, however, so you're
    right, you'll end up seeing a lot of ND football.  But not exclusively.
    
    John

    
    No, I think it's a little different, Denny, because Notre Dame already
    enjoys a tremendous recruiting advantage due to their national
    following.  At least with the free agency system in the pro leagues, 
    you've still got the draft and player protection for a number of years.  
    Do away with those, and I think you'd have a potential competition 
    problem.
    
    Still, I can't blame any kid for wanting to go to Notre Dame or Notre
    Dame necessarily taking advantage of their tradition and popularity
    within the bounds of a fair and equitable system.  You can't
    legislate where a kid should go to school, under any circumstances.  
    With all the bad things that are said about Notre Dame in here, 
    there are many worse choices a college recruit could make than to go 
    to Notre Dame.  
    
    I still contest, however, that this TV contract is not a good thing 
    for anyone but Notre Dame.  I think most of the problem anti-ND'ers 
    have with the school is its attitude of superiority (not its 
    performance on the field or in the classroom), and this contract does 
    nothing to dispel that.  Maybe the proper thing to do for a institution 
    of Notre Dame's reputed integrity is to stick with the others and 
    maintain a level playing field, profits be damned.  Maybe that would
    also be the best thing for college football in the long run, and not 
    just the right thing to do.  In taking the perfectly legal yet most 
    self-beneficial route, Notre Dame has just moved another step ahead 
    of the field in the exploitative world of NCAA semi-professional sports.
    
    glenn
     

    I read in the last SI College Football Preview that ND invited 85
    or so prospective recruits to come to ND for a visit.  60 did. 
    Of those 60, all of them had ND as their first choice.
    
    I really don't think this gives ND much more of an advantage than
    they already had.  Heck, I think 11 out of 13 ND games were on TV
    this past season anyway; the games that weren't (SMU and Navy) were
    on tape delay on SportsChannel.
    
    The Irish don't need anything else.  They have it all - tradition,
    good academics, excellent facilities - this is just the icing on
    the cake.
    
    John

    >Tough cookies.  And this from a guy who's a Yankee fan, a team that
    >screwed their fans by signing a zillion dollar TV deal.

As a fan, I don't feel screwed.  George made a good business deal, and
I do think that MSG will sell a portion of their games back to PIX so that
if my *^&*%^&%  cable company keeps carrying PIX, I can watch the Yanks. 

And I didn't say that ND screwed their fans.  More like they screwed the rest
of college football and used their legion of rabid fans (such as yourself) as
an excuse, when it was really just an outright grab for the big bucks.

    >And I'm sure if USC or Miami had inked a deal, you'd be in defending
    >it.

Well, I'll tell you one thing, now that the dyke is unplugged, you can bet other
teams will have to follow suit.  Both for the money and the competion.  ND took 
the important first step.

Dan

    
    Move Notre Dame up to Division I: The NFL
    
    -Dick
    

    As I tried to mention in the first note I entered a few days ago
    about this contract, everyone connected with Notre Dame football
    profits from this deal with the sole exception of the football
    players themselves.   That's the problem I have with this deal.
    
    Sure, they get scholarships that cover the cost of tuition, fees,
    books, room and board, and whatever else ...
    
    But, in order to play football, of course, there are daily
    practices, weightlifting sessions, film study sessions, game plan
    meetings, travel to/from game sites, and ...
    
    Every Saturday, tens of thousands of fans pile into a huge stadium
    while millions more get comfy in front of a tube to see these kids
    play.   These kids risk their health and their careers just to
    play football for old Notre Dame and do they see any of this
    thirty or forty million ???  Do they see any of the untold
    millions raked in at the ticket window ???  Do they see any of the
    concessions revenues ???  How about money from souvenir sales ??? 
    Sweatshirts, ballcaps, bumper stickers, pennants, coffee mugs, pen
    and pencil sets ???  Anything ???
    
    Hell, no ...   Sure, they get paid to study.  That's noble.   It's
    also just about the absolute barest minimum the school can do to
    get away from having these kids called exactly what they are. 
    
    Chattel.
    
    I know the other schools do it.  However, none of the other
    schools just signed a mega-million dollar contract for exclusive
    tube rights.
    
    Notre Dame has certainly seen nobler days.   It's very hard to
    imagine Knute Rockne urging the boys on to "Win One For The
    Neilsen Ratings".
    
    Bob Hunt

>    Move Notre Dame up to Division I: The NFL
    
 Well allmost right....  Uncle AL has been telling the NFL for years to
 let each team handle their own contract when it comes to T.V. Would you
rather watch the RAIDERS play say the Giants or the Donk's play anyone????;^)
I'm surprised that this is happening first in the College ranks ......

It's called marketing..... The one that does it the best gets most of the
prizes!!!!  and $$$$$$

Monty    

    
    Raiders/Donks on TV?  I think I'd rather watch one of those weekend
    afternoon Doris Day movies that we're inevitably force-fed by the
    Boston affiliates.  "Uncle Al" can have his LA TV money.  You think 
    he or Lou Holtz is noble for suggesting this? 
    
    glenn

    	If NBC has Notre Dame, and CBS gets Miami.Fla, and ABC gets
    Alabama, and ESPN gets Nebraska where does that leave the other Div.I
    teams not on their schedule?

    	I don't want to get stuck with those teams! I'd like to see teams
    from all over the country! Everyone from Air Force to Rutgers! It
    doesn't matter, as long as I don't have to watch the same team every
    weekend.

    My .02

    B.A.

Reply to .78, what you don't want is exactly what you'll be getting.
ABC was gonna show regional games except for a couple of nationally
telivised games, so your only hope for wide variety of football is 
ESPN, and somone said Geez maybe I don't want to watch ND, maybe I
would want a variety or choice, if ND didn't sign this contract the
only thing on NBC would be some dumb movie. 
                                                Dan                
    

>   Notre Dame has certainly seen nobler days.   It's very hard to
>   imagine Knute Rockne urging the boys on to "Win One For The
>   Neilsen Ratings".
    
>   Bob Hunt

	You are kidding, right Bob?  Knute Rockne was the P.T. Barnum of
college football.  Knute probably would've held out for more money from
NBC.  He was a great coach and a master of public relations.  He built
ND into the powerhouse they still are today, but don't believe that sop
you see in the movies.

				/Don

    
    From USA Today are the names of the High School Players who have
    committed to go to Notre Dame...IMpressive !
    ===============================================================
                   Top 100-Notre Dame

  Player,Position,High School          Comments
  ---------------------------          --------

  Pete Bercich,LB, New Lenox, IL
  Jerome Bettis,RB, Detroit MacKenzie
  Jeff Burris,RB, Rock Hill, SC
  Tom Carter,DB,St. Peterbugh,FL
  Lake Dawson,WR,Federal Way,WA
  Jim Flanigan,LB,Brussels WI
  Oliver Gibson,LB,Romeoville,IL        All-USA Defense
  Brian Hamilton,DE,Chicago St Rita     All-USA DEfense
  Andre Hastings,WR, Morrow,GA          Notre Dame, or Fla State  
  B.J. Hawkins,QB, Dumfries Potomac,VA
  Oscar McBride,TE,Chiefland,FL
  Mike McGinn,LB,Long Beach,CA           All-USA Offense
  Le Shane Saddler,RB,Waterloo Iowa
  Aaron Taylor,OL,Concord De La Salle,CA  All-USA Offense
  Bryant Young,DE,Chicago Heights,IL
 
    Regards,
    
    Edwin

You missed one or USA did.....

  Player,Position,High School          Comments
  ---------------------------          --------

  Pete Bercich,LB, New Lenox, IL
  Jerome Bettis,RB, Detroit MacKenzie
  Jeff Burris,RB, Rock Hill, SC
  Tom Carter,DB,St. Peterbugh,FL
  Lake Dawson,WR,Federal Way,WA
  Jim Flanigan,LB,Brussels WI
  Oliver Gibson,LB,Romeoville,IL        All-USA Defense
  Brian Hamilton,DE,Chicago St Rita     All-USA DEfense
  Andre Hastings,WR, Morrow,GA          Notre Dame, or Fla State  
  B.J. Hawkins,QB, Dumfries Potomac,VA
  Oscar McBride,TE,Chiefland,FL
  Mike McGinn,LB,Long Beach,CA           All-USA Offense
  Tim Ruddy,LB, Monogahela,PA           * Joe Montana's High School *
  Le Shane Saddler,RB,Waterloo Iowa
  Aaron Taylor,OL,Concord De La Salle,CA  All-USA Offense
  Bryant Young,DE,Chicago Heights,IL
 
    

monty

Does anyone know where a kid by the name of LAW from Indinia went too???

He broke several high school records this year... He was to go to either
N.D. or U.S.C.....


Thank's
monty

    I heard so much about Jeff Burris from Rock Hill, SC last year that I
    went down to see him play a game last season.  He is one of the purest
    running backs I have ever seen (and that includes college and pro).  He
    reminds me of Billy Simms and Walter Payton rolled into one package if
    you can envision that. I hate the fact that he chose ND, but that's
    another story.
    
    The article in the paper here said that Holtz danced around Burris'
    living room for five minutes after Burris told him his decision.
    
    Remeber this name folks!  A Heisman could be in his future as well as a
    big pro contract...with the Carolinas team we hope.
    
    	--dan'l

    RE:.83 Ruddy was NOT in the Top 100. See others below.
    
               <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 59.83                   NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                    83 of 85
COMET::MONTGOMERY "A BIG 8^)"                        25 lines  15-FEB-1990 15:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You missed one or USA did.....

  Player,Position,High School          Comments
  ---------------------------          --------

  Pete Bercich,LB, New Lenox, IL
  Jerome Bettis,RB, Detroit MacKenzie
  Jeff Burris,RB, Rock Hill, SC
  Tom Carter,DB,St. Peterbugh,FL
  Lake Dawson,WR,Federal Way,WA
  Jim Flanigan,LB,Brussels WI
  Oliver Gibson,LB,Romeoville,IL        All-USA Defense
  Brian Hamilton,DE,Chicago St Rita     All-USA DEfense
  Andre Hastings,WR, Morrow,GA          Notre Dame, or Fla State  
  B.J. Hawkins,QB, Dumfries Potomac,VA
  Oscar McBride,TE,Chiefland,FL
  Mike McGinn,OL,Kansas City           All-USA Offense[Correction]
  Tim Ruddy,LB, Monogahela,PA           * Joe Montana's High School *
  Le Shane Saddler,RB,Waterloo Iowa
  Aaron Taylor,OL,Concord De La Salle,CA  All-USA Offense
  Bryant Young,DE,Chicago Heights,IL
    =======================================================================
    Others signed by Notre Dame, but not in Top 100:
    Willie Clark,RB,Wheatland CA
    John Covington,DB,Winter Haven,FL
    Clint Johnson,QB,Altamonte Springs,FL
    Greg Lane,DB,Austin LBJ,TX
    Dean Lytle, RB/DE, Brevard NC
    Kevin McDougal QB,Pompano Beach,FL                            
    Anthony Peterson,LB, Monongahella,PA
    Marvin Robinson,DB,Tampa Hillborough,FL
    
                                                          
    
    Edwin

    That Rock Hill, South Carolina is one helluva nice town, too, Dan.
    
    Especially since it'll be *my* home town in just about a week from
    now.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Brett Law,5-10,195,TB,Sheridan HS, IN has opted for
    Indiana.
    
    Edwin

    See?  Even Indiana football recruits over PU....why is the Boiler
    women hoops the only PU team has good success recruiting?  Maybe West
    Lafayette is just a good place for ladies.....?  Not guys?
    
    :( 
    
    :)
    
    Charles

    RE:-1   IN-State Recruits at Purdue
    
    Not to bust anyone's chops, but only two out of 20+ signee's are
    from Indiana.
    
    Nobody asked, thought I'd mentioned it.
    
    Edwin

    Can mean good, can mean bad.  Akers seem to help Purdue recruiting to
    improve in the south, but he did not seem to improve much in the
    Chicago area which is talent rich but very tough in recruiting.  Also,
    according to some this is supposed to be a "down" year in Indiana high
    school seniors coming out.
    
    Charles

    Has Tony Rice signed with anyone yet?

    
    
    What, tony rice not drafted... something fishy is going on?
    

    >>What, tony rice not drafted... something fishy is going on?
    
    Nothing fishy, he just sips as a qb. Everyone except Doc knew that.
    
    JoJ

    Pure option quarterbacks who throw a lot of footballs short don't
    get drafted.  Rice is a great athlete but has never shown me he
    has the consistent passing ability to play QB in the NFL.
    
    With the smaller rosters in training camps now, I doubt anyone will
    take a chance on signing him with a view toward making him a WR,
    RB or DB either.
    
    John

    re .95
    
    Cheap shot Wardlevane - I never said anything pro or con about Rice.
    
    Doc

    >>Cheap shot Wardlevane - I never said anything pro or con about Rice.
    
    You wouldn't want to put a little wager on that statement, would you?
    
    JoJ

    Sure ..... go for it. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. I think that
    major Harris can play in the NFL, and I'm the Undisputed
    President-For-Life of the Andre Ware Jihad, but Rice does not have
    NFL passing skills. He needs a TON of work. I expected him to get
    drafted (and converted) though ....

Major Harris will be a big star in the NFL and Tony Rice will
definitely be on an NFL roster. Tony Rice is a winner,who knows 
how to play the game. He certainly can be a better pro QB than some of
the stiffs I see in the NFL.

    Rice CAN be yes, provided there is a team that can take him, allow
    him to take up a spot on the roster and develop him.
    
    The problems are the following:  Where there used to be unlimited
    numbers of players on a team during the first part of training camp,
    there can now be only 80.  Those roster spots may be too valuable
    to give to someone like Rice who you know going in is going to be
    a project (but it is worth taking a shot).  Second, he can only
    spend a year on a developmental roster.  He'd have one season with
    a team to be the opposing team's QB in practice, or to work out
    at running back, defensive back or wide receiver.  Can he develop
    that fast?  I don't know, but he's not ready to be a NFL quarterback
    now.  Is there a team willing to give him the time?  Who knows.
    
    The World League of American Football would be an ideal place for
    him to get this time.
    
    John

    So, in other words, Dave, the NFL scouts have missed the boat
    completely on Tony Rice and Major Harris.
    
    My opinion is that the NFL scouting system rarely misses anything. 
    You can call it cold and clinical but the talent evaluation
    procedures that NFL teams use are extremely sophisticated and are
    almost always correct.
    
    And to back up the opinion, when was the last time a new player
    took the league *completely* by surprise ???  I mean a TOTAL shock
    to everyone.  Hasn't happened in years.   Sure, there are some
    collosal "failures" but very rarely does someone become a star by
    surprise in the NFL anymore.
    
    Bob Hunt

    	It's a sticky situation, but with the right team Rice could
    really cook.
    
    				/Don

    How about the Makowski (sp?), Meggett, and free agent running back
    from Atlanata (forgot his name) ?  Certain players are game players
    who just excel under the right system, or the right coach, while
    others are great in college because of the system or coach.
    
    What NFL scouts can't time is desire to win and that is what makes
    certain average talented players rise to the occasion.  Rice was
    a wishbone QB, but every year Neb, Okl, and others produce the same
    type of QBs and how many of them have made it to the big-time ?
    (One must exclude Aikman who transfrred to UCLA). 
    
    Why does it matter how much weight you can lift, or how high you
    can jump ?  If you really want it you can outmuscle or outjump opposing
    players.  Martial arts are based on the premise that you don't have
    to be the biggest or the fastest, but more determined and smarter.
    
    
    
    

    The World League of American Football is a NFL affiliate slated
    to begin play in the Spring of 1991 with teams in the US and Europe.
    Tex Schramm is the Commissioner.
    
    I agree with Bob Hunt.  If anything about NFL scouting it's overkill.
    All the teams except 3 belong to scouting combines.  They go out
    and do the preliminary evaluations of the players during the spring
    of their junior years.  Throughout the season, each team and the
    combines have their own scouts visiting every college campus in
    the country, watching films, visiting kids, watching games and so
    on.  In addition, the Patriots have high school coaches working
    part-time as film graders taping all the college games on TV and
    evaluating players both from these films and from game films.  Then,
    the all-star games are played in December and January and those
    are really nothing but showcases for NFL scouts.  Throughout the
    spring, the NFL coaches get into the act, travelling to the schools,
    working out the players, interviewing them, giving them intelligence
    tests and so forth.  The league and the combines both run big get
    togethers of players during the spring and prior to the draft.
    
    It's not foolproof, in fact, the NFL people admit that it's overkill,
    that all they're trying to do is narrow the odds and there's no
    way to measure heart.  The surprises come from highly touted players
    not making it, rather than non-touted players making it.
            
    The surprises in the past came because scouting wasn't as sophisticated
    overall and teams with a slight edge (such as Dallas in the early
    to mid sixties) would eventually get the better players.  Dallas'
    scouting methods haven't gotten worse, the other teams have caught
    up to them.
    
    I'm not saying you're doing this Dave, but don't be blinded by Notre
    Dame hype.  Keep in mind that Lou Holtz used the perfect offense
    to take advantage of Tony Rice's talents.  If Holtz had forced Rice
    to play in a pure dropback offense, he never would have been anywhere
    as effective.  Holtz in fact would have been doing a lousy job of
    coaching.  It was probably in Rice's best interests for his future
    pro development that he play somewhere other than QB, but the interests
    of the team demanded that he play QB.  And it worked, and it should
    in no way diminish his achievements at Notre Dame.  Just like the
    failures of Doug Flutie in the pros should not take away from his
    achievements at Boston College.  Rice is a great story with recovering
    from being a Prop 48 player and so forth, and he led ND to a 24-1
    record and a National Title is 2 years as a starter, but that doesn't
    necessarily mean he can do the same thing with a pro team.
    
    John

>    All the teams except 3 belong to scouting combines. 
  
    What teams are those John??
    I think one is the RAIDERS..

    >giving them intelligence test

     They have been blowing this one with a few players!!

   Monty

    Niners are another one, cain't remember the third.
    
    John

    When I made the earlier comments about very few *total* surprises
    in the NFL anymore, I was thinking precisely about Dave Meggett of
    the Giants.
    
    It may often seem that players like Meggett come into the
    limelight as a surprise. But, trust me, Dave Meggett was no
    surprise.  Yes, Towson State is no football powerhouse but the
    scouts knew *ALL* about him.  Further support for this opinion
    comes from listening to the coaches and player personnel on draft
    day.  They say things like "We had him as our 5th rounder but the
    Browns took him in the 4th instead.  That's when we decided to go
    after Joe Jones."
    
    Also, rememnber that these so-called surprises had to survive 6
    weeks of training camp as well.  A player doesn't all of a sudden
    discover "heart" the minute the season opens.  If he had "heart"
    but not enough talent, unfortunately he doesn't make it through
    training camp.  Especially with the 80 man camp limits.
    
    My point ???
    
    I feel sorry for Tony Rice but I would be shocked if he made an
    NFL team and I'd be flabbergasted if he became a star.  Major
    Harris should have stayed in school.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    >     	It's a sticky situation, but with the right team Rice could
    >           really cook.
     
    Slasher, I do like your style.
    
    This file's kinda mellowed out today, but since the NFL schedule
    has been posted, I gotta ask: do the Donk's play the Brownspots
    thisted year?
    
    Dickster
    

    Monday night, October 8, in Denver.  This conference will get *UGLY*
    for about a week beforehand.
    
    John

    re .102
    
    Bob, you can't be serious.
    
    Warren Moon should have been a high draft pick back in 1980.
    
    Richard Dent was an 8th round pick. So was Mark Clayton.
    
    Scott Case went around the 10th round.
    
    Steve Largent, half of the great Raider teams are proof that the
    scouts are FAR from perfect.
    
    As for failures and flops, we can go into detail there as well.
    
    Oh, how could I forget : How many QB's was drafted in front of DAn
    Marino ? 
    
    Almost always correct you say ?
    
    giggle, giggle ...

    Doc,
    
    All the guys you mentioned (Dent, Marino, Clayton, ...) were
    actually drafted, weren't they ???   Late or not, they were
    drafted.
    
    That means that somebody thought they could play in the NFL.  The
    exact round they were drafted in may not have been an accurate
    indication of their future performance but they were indeed
    drafted.  Marino is the best example.  He was the 6th QB taken
    that year and has performed far and above the first 5 taken,
    including Elway, in my estimation.
    
    Tony Rice was not drafted.  At all.  In order to be accurate,
    please name for me an *undrafted* player who surprised everyone
    and became a star.   It hasn't happened in a l-o-n-g time.  Johnny
    Unitas is the only one I can think of.
    
    The draft is not perfect.  The players are rarely ever picked "in
    order" but players do not slip through the draft completely by
    accident.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Joe Klecko.....

    Good one, yes, Joe Klecko.
    
    Played for Temple and afterwards was playing in a Philadelphia
    sandlot semi-pro league.   I forget exactly how he got to the Jets
    but it was at least *15* years ago, wasn't it ???
    
    Things have changed a lot since then.
    
    Bob Hunt

       I wasn't drafted either!
    I enlisted            
                      Denny

    
    
    concerning drafting... the round that a player is picked has a lot to
    do with how soon the player can contribute, i.e. most, if not all,
    first rounders are expected to make immediate contributions etc...
    
    For Tony Rice it can be argued that he's something of a project as far
    as the NFL is concerned: his arm strength, release etc...
    
    If they(scouts) project that he may not be able to contribute for 3 or more
    years he may not be worth drafting at all.  By the time this player can
    contribute a few more drafts have occurred etc...  I think quarterbacks
    are the most susceptible this way in the way contribution is measured
    for them.
    
    For a 'project' lineman  he may be able to contribute by only being
    used in running situations or passing situations etc...;  For a
    quarterback, however, to contribute he must have his entire game
    ready: his throwing, scrambling, the way he reads defenses etc..
    

    Well said.
    
    Not very many "project" QBs these days.  Especially with the way
    that salaries have grown.  Keeping a high-priced rookie QB on the
    bench is expensive.
    
    Offensive linemen are the best examples of "projects".  They can
    literally ride pine for 2 or 3 years and then come in and start
    stuffing people if they've developed properly.
    
    The Rams took a project lineman named Mike Schad from a small
    Canadian college.  The Eagles picked him up last year on Plan B
    and he started most of this past season for them.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Okay Bob, I stand corrected (well, a little) ....
    
    Of course it's a little harder for players to 'slip through' because
    we have more teams now as well - you don't have any alternative,
    but to 'reach' in some cases ....
    
    BTW, were these guys free agents ? Correct me if I'm wrong :
    
    Otis Sistrunk
    Jim Hart
    Bob Tucker
    Steve Largent
    Billy "White Shoes" Johnson
    Warren Moon
    
    But I have to agree, the chances of another total free agent making
    the HoF are slim (sigh).
    
    LAst question : Why the owners keeping free agent camps down to
    80 players ? Are they that cheap ?

    Yes, they are Doc.  Considering that some teams would have 110-120
    players in camp, with the attendant salaries, meals and lodging
    for the time they were in camp, it was adding up to a pretty good
    sized chunk of change.
    
    John

    
    Also Doc, the players you havwe mentioned are basically from ancient
    time. Not that the seventies was that long ago but at that time not
    many clubs were using computers and high tech gizmos to analysis
    players....
    
    oh yea the p-name is just for you...
    
    mike

    
    Otis Sistrunk did not attend college.
    
    It was good ole' Pat Bowlen, Denver owner, that talked the other owners
    into cutting the training camp rosters to save money. The very next day
    he showed what a hypocrite he is by offering Bruce Smith a contract far
    above what any defensive lineman makes, thus driving up the price for
    all top defensive linemen. Most coaches bitched about the small
    training camp roster because if someone got hurt there was a smaller
    pool of players to take his reps. 
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Hoot,
    
    	How does *talking the other owners into cutting training camp
    	rosters* then offering Bruce Smith a big contract make Bowlen
    	a hypocrite?
    
    Claybroon

    The majority of owners looked at it in the former light!!
    
    
    Nelly

    >	Otis Sistrunk did not attend college.
    
    I thought he went to the University of Mars...
    
    
    py

    To get back onto the subject of ND Football ...
    
    There was an article in SI last week about Tony Rice and Major Harris
    and why they weren't drafted.  Of both it was said that they were
    both lousy passers.  Of Rice, it mentioned that he was partially
    a product of Notre Dame hype and he was also made to look better
    than he was by his supporting cast and the fact that he was perfect
    for ND's offense.  Of Harris, it claimed that he panicked under
    pressure and was always looking to run first.
    
    I don't have the article with me so I can't quote you chapter and
    verse.
    
    John

    Thanks Steve.........it's all so clear now!  Sometimes Clay
    has to have a picture drawn for him.......
    
    Claybroon

    Here is ND's 1990 Football Schedule:
    
    
    9/15  MICHIGAN
    9/22  at Michigan State
    9/29  PURDUE
    10/6  STANFORD
    10/13 AIR FORCE
    10/20 MIAMI*
    10/27 at Pitt
    11/3  at Navy (Meadowlands, E. Rutherford, NJ)
    11/10 at Tennessee
    11/17 PENN STATE
    11/24 at USC
    
    *The last rendition of the ND-v-Miami Holy War
    
    Prediction:
    01/01/91 Sugar Bowl vs Auburn for National Championship!
    
    Next Season's Strengths:
    	o Defense-esp. Zorich, Lyte, & Stonebreaker(3 All Americans)
    	o Overall Team Speed
    	o Experience-Played for National Championship last 2 seasons
    	o The Rocket
    		
    Next Seasons Vunerabilities:
    	o Unproven quarterback(Mirer or Kelchner)
    	o Loss of experienced offensive linemen
    	o Tough Schedule(MSU, Pitt, Tenn, & USC all on the road)
    	
    Keys to the National Championship:
        o Will Mirer or Kelchner be up to the task at QB?
    	o How will Lou's new offense work(i.e. more of a passing offense)?
    	o Must stay healthy at the skill positions?
                           

    
    
    
    
         Didn't Kelchner break his collar bone in the Spring game? Sounds
     like Kelchner has the inside track. It does not matter which one is
     the quarterback Notre Dame will have a different offense. I wonder
     how long it will take the team to adjust, especially the offensive
     lineman changing from run blocking to more pass blocking.
    
    
    dan

    
    
    
    Tony Rice signed with Saskatchewan today.
    
    dan

    September 15 is not that far away, and its Cheer, cheer for old Noter
    Dame!  I can't wait - My Celtics are collapsing, the Red Sox are
    pathetic, and the NY Giants are hurting already.  I need a good dose of
    ND football to cheer me up. tk

    The 'Canes will HOUSE the Farting Irish.
    
    Mark.

    re:.135 >cheer for old Noter Dame
       I hope you aren't referring to any of our new femme type Noters!!!
                                          Denny

    Bob, good note...as usual..
    
    Mark.

    Anybody know when the 'Canes dance into South Bend this year?
    This time its going to take more than 6 turn overs and a blind
    ref for ND to beat the dancing boys form the land of sun.

Chuck

    Is this the last year ND plays Miami, that is, is this the last year ND
    plays in shoulder pads and helmets before putting on the big yellow
    chicken suit?
    
    Dan

    October 20th: Miami at Notre Dame.  GO 'Canes!

    Clearly, Dan Schneider knows what he's talking about.
    
    The Irish will eventually drop all Top 10 opponents to get to the
    Natiional Championship.
    
    Mark.

    	When the Weenie and the Geek agree you know something's rotten
    in Denmark.
    
    				/Don

    Haw haw haw  You anti's crack me up.  The Irish have tradionally
    had one of the toughest, if not the toughest, schedules in the nation.
    That's been proven and a fack.   Yeah, Dan, I know you'll say "But
    they play the armed forces academies" - yeah and the Canes play
    powerhouses like Cincinnati and other cream puffs.  
    
    As was widely reported, the Irish are stooping to the levels of
    the other top programs and trying to get more home games and more
    games vs. lesser opponents.  
    
    It's happening throughout college football, if you guys would open
    your eyes long enough to see it.  
    
    JD

    Read an article in Heinrich's college preview which said that in
    coming years the Irish are dropping such opponents as Michigan,
    Michigan State, and Penn State, and picking up the likes of Army
    and Vanderbilt.  And of course everyone knows they're dropping Miami.
    Something else one has to wonder: If the ND football team can make
    its way to West Lafayette every year, why can't the basketball team?

    Joe                          
    

    re .145:
    
    >	Yeah, Dan, I know you'll say "But
    >	they play the armed forces academies"
    
    Didn't Air Force go to a bowl game last year?  
    
    (For that matter, didn't something like 2/3 of Notre Dame's opponents go
    to a bowl game last year?)
    
    
    py

/Don...

Just wanted to edit your remarks a little:

	When the weenie and the geek agree on something, you
	know that something is rotten in DanMark....

'saw

    re: 138  
    Jealousy is an ugly emotion, especially from a Philly sports fan. tk

Is it possible that we may have a point on which T and Bob Hunt agree on?
Dislike for Notre Dame?

Sure Notre Dame ain't part of the Jesuit conspiracy to control the world,
but hopefully that won't stand in the way.

TTom

    Hey, TTom, surprisingly enough, T and I agree on quite a few things.  
    
    We both despise the Designated Hitter, for example.  Neither one of us
    thinks John Thompson ought to be involved with collegiate academic
    issues.   We both are pretty much disgusted with the way that The
    Gipper and his wimpy successor have torn the guts out of this country. 
    And we both think that Knorr is a baby blue pee-pee smoocher. But then
    so do you ...
    
    And we both think that New Orleans is a helluva town.   Except that T
    thinks it's in Virginia's Tidewater region ...
    
    Oh well ...
    
    Bob Hunt

>    And we both think that Knorr is a baby blue pee-pee smoocher.

This is why I read this stuff!

And it shows another similar trait: a way with words. Here's hoping for
more of those, at least, fun to read notes.

TTom

    Count me in with most of .152
    
    Notre Dame is scum, and I could care less who wins the National Title,
    as long as it isn't the Irish ......

    Bob, good note as usual, and I agree.  Of course you are never wrong.
    
    Better tm that pee-pee smoocher, though.
    
    Mark.

    re:150
    I thought my reply was in the tone of most of the notes here, which is going for
    the other guys' jugular. The line is a paraphrase of the line in Young
    Frankenstein, " A riyot is an ugly ting", which was uttered by the
    police chief.  I'm cool, I'm chilled, and I still like ND football.   
    I know this sounds impossible, but all the CFA schools are in it for
    Greed, including Miami('don't need no educatin' here"). tk
    

    Well, Mr. Keating, I forgive you for all of your sins including your
    sports loyalties.  :-) :-)
    
    Anyone who quotes from "Young Frankenstein" is 100% okay by me.   I'm
    sorry I missed your inference in your earlier note.
    
    One of the hardest things to do is figure out which quote from that
    movie is the best one ...
    
    Some of my favorites ...
    
    o	"Wow, what knockers!"	"Oh, zank you, Herr Doctor."
    
    o	"Hump?  What hump?"
    
    o	"IT COULD WORK!!!"
    
    o	"He vas my BOYFRIEND!"
    
    o	"Taffeta, darling, taffetta."
    
    o	"No tongues."
    
    o	"BLUCHER!" followed by the neighing horses
    
    and on and on and on ...
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    

    Bob,
    
    Of course there's:
    
    Wolf?
    
    Where Wolf?
    
    Werewolf!!!!!
    
    There, Wolf, there, Castle.....
    
    Ahhhh, Home....
    
    
    JD

    And ...
    
    o	"Ah, sweet mystery of life at last I've found you ..."
    
    o	"My name is ... FRANKENSTEIN!"
    
    o	"Some varm milk, perhaps?"
    
    Mel Brooks at his all-time finest.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Associated Press reports of a story in this week's SI.  Former Irish
    lineman Steve Huffman says that steroids were in use at ND and that
    Holtz "had to have known" about it.
    
    I think it's just a retaliation for Holtz publicly badmouthing Huffman
    after he quit the squad in '87.
    
    But a scandal for the Irish is fine by me.
    
    	--dan'l

Looks bad for the Big 10, huh MrT? 

    Having gone to ND during the years huffman was there and being very
    good friends with many of the football players I can say that there was
    no sign of steroid use from the players I knew.  I think this is just
    an instance of sour grapes on Huffmans part as Lou slighted him in
    his book!  
    Some people will try anything to tarnish the GOLDEN DOME!
    
    DJ

    	Last time I looked Touchdown Jesus seemed a little bigger.

Regarding the steroids...

I don't want to start a rathole, and I'm not questioning what you said,
but I know several people who are on steriods that have not shown any
of the signs of steroid usage....
'Saw

    Any truth to the rumor that Penn St is looking to get out of their
    contract for the 91 and 92 games with ND?
    
    And if so, the rumor I hear is that ND might be looking for either
    FSU or Miami to replace them. Any newes?
    
    ML
    

    >And if so, the rumor I hear is that ND might be looking for either
    >FSU or Miami to replace them. Any newes?
    
    Can't be.  Notre Dame is scared of Miami.  But then, they're also
    scared of bad press (watch the whitewash on this Steroid Abuse stuff go
    down real quick).  That's the only thing that could get Miami back on
    the schedule.
    
    Would they rather lose a game, or lose face?
    
    Dan

    Well, Dan, I heard on the radio yesterday that a spokesman for ND
    admitted that some of their players used steroids.
    
    If they admit it right away, is that some form of whitewash?
    
    Lee

    It is when Holtz is quoted as saying the accusation was "just sour
    grapes".
    
    Mark.

    >If they admit it right away, is that some form of whitewash?
    
    Lee, if you saw any of the Holtz press conference, you'd know it's
    gonna be a white wash.  BTW, the team doctor admitted that 5 tests out
    of some 466 since 1987 were positive, not the numbers that Huffman
    claimed.  He said that the 5 players were disciplined but refused to
    say how.  Now this guy is paid by Notre Dame so I'd have to assume he
    has presented everything in the finest possible light.
    
    I haven't read the article yet, but I saw Huffman live on ESPN
    yesterday.  He was extremely credible and believable.  I don't know if
    Holtz was aware or encouraged steroid use, but I did believe him when
    he said assistant coaches encouraged it, and if I had to guess I'd say
    Holtz was purposefully blind to the issue.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    Huffman is a whiney little brat who's made at Lou because Lou called
    him a quitter in his book.  Big deal - if the guy was a man, he
    wouldn't have been a whiney little quitter because he got a boo
    boo on his shoulder.   He couldn't take the heat, he wimped out,
    now his feelings have been hurt, so he's getting back at Lou the
    only way he can, plus making an easy $5,000.
    
    I'm not a Lou fan - I know you aren't - you probably still hold
    a grudge from his days as the coach of the Jets, plus your 'hatred'
    of Notre Dame is well documented.  
    
    Do I think there were steroids used at Notre Dame.  hell yes I do
    - just as I believe they've been used at every other college.  I'd
    seriously doubt there's a top 20 or bowl team that hasn't had someone
    on steroids.   
    
    By accounts I've read, they've said upwards of 75% of all lineman
    and linebackers have probably used them at one time or another.
    
    Huffman will make some more bucks selling his story - but the fact
    will always remain that he wasn't good enough to make the team -
    and instead of accepting it, he's let it gnaw at him until he's
    gotten vindictive.
    
    I mean if Huffman was so angelic and so agasp at what he saw happening
    at ND - why'd he wait so long to tell his story?  Why'd he wait
    until publicly acknowledging he was upset and hurt  over Lou calling
    him a quitter.   
    
    JD

    The whitewash has begun.  Since ND admitted some of their steroid
    problems yesterday, the apologists can't deny it anymore, so they'd
    better attack the messenger.
    
    You give the ND propoganda side pretty well, JD.  Of course if you were
    injured and your team threw you over the side because you thought you'd
    hurt yourself worse trying to play through the injury, and you refused
    to take steroids to help compensate because of the injury, you'd fully
    understand if your coach called you a quitter in print.  I mean, you're
    a 20 year old college kid; you understand these kinds of things.
    
    This is Notre Dame.  The media must be manipulated.  Let the propoganda
    flow.
    
    Dan

JD, I too am a ND hater but I think you're missing the boat here. First
off who is Lou to call this kid a quiter? Did he afford the kid all the
chances in the world to make it? I don't know maybe he did but just because
the kid gave up on football doesn't give Lou the right to lambast him
publicly because it makes good copy. Football is small potatoes to what goes
on in real life and now the kid has an unnecessary tag tattoed on him
courtsey of ole mr rightgenouss....

Grant steriod use is rampant and one coach cannot control it but to admit
that one of his assistants incouraged it, and the fact that obviously no
penalites were assessed against the violators is totally against the pricipals
old Lou has been whitewashing the public with that he's all about. "we don't
care about the victories as much as we care about the kids"..sure  sounds
like a crock of shit now.

I've always felt he was a jerk and now my feeling have been confirmed....

thanks

mike

    BTW, Lou Holtz ought to know a lot about quitters, since he is one
    himself.  Lou was a long time college coach who had built some
    successful programs with only a few minor scandals in those days when
    no one really cared about them.
    
    But Pro Football was what Lou had on his mind, and he kept campaigning
    for the pro job.  Well, the Jets took him up on it, and gave him a
    5-year contract.  The Jets weren't a good team back then, but Lou said
    he could rebuild them into the kind of team he wanted, the kind he
    built in college.  
    
    In his first season, the Jets were making changes, and showed some
    improvement.  But abruptly, with 2 games to go in the season, Lou Holtz
    quit pro football and the Jets.  Couldn't take it.  Wanted back into
    the college game.  Here's a hankie, Lou.
    
    He's got no business calling some 20 year old kid a quitter.
    
    Dan

    JD, the kid said that he wasn't going to mention anything until Holtz
    dumped on him in his book (a real classy move Lou :-( ).
    
    Moreover, a couple of former ND assistant coaches - one of whom is now
    a head coach - confirmed what the kid said about Holtz's attitude
    towards injuries. Holtz has a low tolerance towards injuries, and often
    thought they were the player's fault .....

    Well guys, a top NFL GM said that they've never found a Notre Dame
    kid testing positive for steroids.  NEVER.  As in zero.   Nada.
    
    
    And yeah, it's not classy of Holtz to call the kid a quitter, but
    the kid should have confronted Holtz one on one - it's obvious he's
    in for the money, and that's all.   And none of you know-it-alls,
    including Dan the ND hater, have answered the question as to why
    this conscientious kid didn't blow the whistle sooner.   I know
    why, and so do you guys  - because he has nothing, and he's a little
    baby whiner who needs his diaper changed.   He only hope is he'll
    get on Geraldo or Donahue and make a few bucks, then go back and
    slink back into the quitter's slime from whence he came.   
    
    The direct quote from the NFL guy was "We never worry about kids
    from Notre Dame, we know they are clean..."
    
    So lets see, the a GM says no Notre Dame kids have ever tested
    positive.   A report says that 5 players tested by ND since 1987
    have tested postive and have been punished (which is probably severe
    considering past punishements).   Now, we have a whiney quitter
    who is upset because Lou called him a quitter.  He does the manly
    thing, cries, holds his breath til he turns purple, refuses to eat
    his veggies, sees a $ sign in front of his haid, and takes the $5,000
    and tells his story - offering NO proof other than heresay and what
    he saw through his tear stained eyes - and he waits for Oprah and
    Phis and Geraldo to call, so he can get more cash and Dan can watch
    him spew his sad tale...
    
    
    JD

>    And none of you know-it-alls,
>    including Dan the ND hater, have answered the question as to why
>    this conscientious kid didn't blow the whistle sooner.   
    
================================================================================
Note 59.174                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  174 of 175
FRSBEE::BROOKS "A radical thinker on a musical level" 7 lines  23-AUG-1990 12:49
       -< "Did you break your arm boy ? Spit on it, rub it, and play !" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    JD, the kid said that he wasn't going to mention anything until Holtz
    dumped on him in his book (a real classy move Lou :-( ).
    
    

    Dan'l
    
    I read Doc's reply.  To me, that isn't an answer, and further proves
    the kid is a sour grapes whiney loser.   If he's SOOOO friggin upset
    over the use of steroids, why'd he have to wait until he was rightfully
    called a quitter.  If he was really concerned, he would have said
    something sooner - not wait 3 YEARS!!!!!!    He  must have lost
    his job at the burger king and need a quick 5K to keep him in diapers
    for another year.
    
    JD

hahhaaaaa JD an NFL GM says...that's a good one. These guys are the ones
that start this shit to begin with. How many NFL linemen do you think were
using the stuff before steroid were included in the suspendable drug list?    

the kid could have had the 5K three years ago if what to give his story out
JD but obviously he was bitting the bullet for good ole Touchdown Jesus until
classless Lou snowed him.

Now today good ole wholesome Lou admits that he made illegal payments to 
recruits at Minnesota. Of course we already knew that thanks to MrT...

According to friends Lou wants desperately to go back to the pros and prove
he can win at this level too..hahaha fat chance does he think DeBartalo is
going to hand him the reins of the Niners?

mike

    JD, 
    
    I am in similar shoes; am I a whiner?  I have evidence in my files that
    could really burn an ex-manager of mine, but I choose not to make it
    public because it would only serve to damage a career.  And I'm just
    not that vindictive.  However, if said manager were to do something to
    damage my career or reputation, you can bet I'd be ready with what I
    know.  
    
    What goes around comes around. 
    
    	--dan'l

    Have any of you actually read the article?  I did.
    
    This is the younger brother of Dave Huffman and Tim Huffman who both
    played for ND in the seventies.  There was another brother who played
    at Arkansas while Holtz was there.  This youngest Huffman was recruited
    by Gerry Faust.
    
    He was injury prone to begin with as he sustained two injuries under
    Faust - an ankle injury and a shoulder injury.  He came back from them
    and was playing.  He had academic trouble during Holtz' first year and
    had to give up football for a while.  He came back and was playing but
    had another shoulder injury and didn't feel he was being effective.  He
    went to meet with Holtz, who dared him to quit, and he did.
    
    I'm not justifying what he did but he certainly didn't do it over lack
    of playing time or anything like that.
    
    He also said that he never would have gone public had Holtz not called
    him a quitter in the book.  In this case, I think he's perfectly
    justified in going after Holtz because being called a quitter in a book
    by someone with the national credibility of Holtz could ruin him.
    
    As far as the steroid use goes, naturally the NFL people would say ND
    is clean whether they are or not because the NFL wouldn't want to ruin
    any relationship with the folks in South Bend.  Lets assume the NFL is
    right.  Only the draft quality and free agent quality kids would be
    getting tested - and not every ND player has pro potential.
    
    Let's not be naive either.  Notre Dame is no more immune to drug use
    than any other college football team in this country.  They are
    probably cleaner than most but that's no guarantee of them being
    completely clean.
    
    My summary of the article?  Some degree of Sour Grapes, some
    justification for writing it, but I'm not sure who to believe.
    
    John
    
    PS - The author is back in school and expects to receive his Notre Dame
    degree in December

    JD, did that NFL GM say "read my lips"?  Just checking...
    
    JoJ

    re .180
    
    If the kid has the guts to go back and get his degree at ND, I can't
    see how anyone can call him a whiner or a quitter.
    
    Bruce

It's clear there are several axes to grind with this issue. Lou
definitely blew it by explicitly bad-mouthing this Huffman guy; axe to
grind #1. Huffman clearly has a beef with Holtz, probably before any book
was published; axe to grind #2. Now all ND bashers are jumping on the
scandal bandwagon; axe to grind #3.

What else is new. 

My beef in all of this is that simply by raising the issue, the public
seems to treat it as fact. Sometimes these are true - like at South
Carolina that made the front cover of SI. Sometimes, it's just left
hanging.

TTom

    Nobody should believe anything Holtz says anymore.  Last year's
    "We're not going to a Bowl" quote has to be one of the all-time
    greats.
    
    Joe

    
    It's really funny to sit and listen to what all you guys say!  Did any
    of you ever go to school at ND??  All you know is what you read in the
    paper or hear in the news.  I am a proud alumni of ND and I think if
    any of you had gone there you might not be so high and mighty against
    the Irish!  Believe it or not...the football players are little bit
    higher class of people than most of the other football players in the
    country.  They take pride in both academics and athletics.  They live in 
    the same dorms as the students and really try to show a touch of class 
    in everything they do.  It may sound like alot of hype when it comes out
     in the media...but the people who go to the school and play football at 
    ND take pride in it and would never try to do anything to tarnish the 
    ND name.   Lou's motives for what he says and does are primarily to get
    his ball players and the TEAM to be the best possible players and MEN
    they can be.  Not just in football but after football too!  The people 
    that make you guys hate ND are not ND grads/coaches/administrators but 
    the same people that the ND alumni hate....the ones who run their mouth 
    about how perfect and great the Irish are without really knowing what
    the hell they are talking about. 
    
    Sorry, just had to vent some Irish pride. :')
    
    DJ
                                                 

>    The people 
>    that make you guys hate ND are not ND grads/coaches/administrators but 
>    the same people that the ND alumni hate....the ones who run their mouth 
>    about how perfect and great the Irish are without really knowing what
>    the hell they are talking about. 
    
    No, I'd venture to say that it's Notre Dame's holier-than-thou
    attitude and your note is a perfect example of it.
    
    You couldn't have set that up much better, DJ.
    
    	--dan'l
    

DJ, what makes you think that ND football players are of a higher class than
the rest? I'm sure most of the guys are excellent men as well as players but
there also has to be a few bad boys in the crowd as well. Which I'm sure is
the case at alot of other schools. 

Myself I really haven't bashed the players but good ole Lou who has been talking
out of both sides of his mouth for so long that he has lost all credibility.

And knowing looking the other way while steriod use is going on at his school
and paying recruits has nothing to with motivating players, it's outright
cheating...

mike

oh and don't worry I'm relaxed, there are far more important thing in life
than this....

I do applaud your school spirit...

>    It's really funny to sit and listen to what all you guys say!  Did any
>    of you ever go to school at ND??  All you know is what you read in the
>    paper or hear in the news.  
    
    Perhaps you are right.  Maybe we should just delete all the notes on
    topics which we weren't all personally involved in.  There goes all the
    pro sports files.  MrT and a couple others will be on there own in the
    Big 10 file, the ACC note will have a few noters, but not much else.  I
    didn't realize until I read your note that in order to be allowed to
    talk about ND you had to go there.
    
>    I am a proud alumni of ND and I think if
>    any of you had gone there you might not be so high and mighty against
>    the Irish!  Believe it or not...the football players are little bit
>    higher class of people than most of the other football players in the
>    country.  They take pride in both academics and athletics.  
    
    Based on what?  Did you ever go to all the other schools so that you
    would know this?  Just want to use your own criteria for making
    judgements...
    
>    They live in 
>    the same dorms as the students and really try to show a touch of class 
>    in everything they do.  It may sound like alot of hype when it comes out
     in the media...
    
    It sounds like a lot of hype here, too.  What do they do, use higher
    quality steroids and try to share them with others?
    
>               but the people who go to the school and play football at 
>    ND take pride in it and would never try to do anything to tarnish the 
>    ND name.   
    
    You mean a player like Huffman would never do anythingt to tarnish the 
    name?
    
>    Lou's motives for what he says and does are primarily to get
>    his ball players and the TEAM to be the best possible players and MEN
>    they can be.  
    
    That sounds to me like you are saying that Lou will say and do anything
    to recruit the best players (kinda goes against the scholar/athelete
    theme you had earlier).
    
    
>                                                         The people 
>    that make you guys hate ND are not ND grads/coaches/administrators but 
>    the same people that the ND alumni hate....the ones who run their mouth 
>    about how perfect and great the Irish are without really knowing what
>    the hell they are talking about. 

    You mean sorta like this note?
    
    
    Bruce
                                                 

    I don't hate Notre Dame.  Then again, I never went to another school
    that played Notre Dame.  If I did, I'd probably hate Notre Dame as much
    as I do Boston College, because from what I hear from native
    Midwesterners who were familiar with Notre Dame who've moved east, the
    schools are very similar.  In fact, I'd probably hate Notre Dame even
    more than BC because of the holier than thou attitude.  The ironic
    thing is that I was accepted at both and chose (largely because of
    money) to go elsewhere.
    
    I applaud Notre Dame for being able to consistently compete at a high
    level of football while maintaining a large degree of integrity.  ND is
    consistently among the schools with the highest graduation rates in the
    country.  Notre Dame recruits good students, both athletes and
    non-athletes.  Notre Dame has no "gut" majors.  Notre Dame is probably
    the closest thing this country has to a national college football team
    in the sense that their appeal is nationwide and they are the most
    closely followed and scrutinized college football program in the
    nation.  No other school could have gone it alone with a national TV
    deal like they did.  As far as I know, Notre Dame tries very hard,
    probably harder than most, to assimilate its athletes into the rest of
    the student population, which is something more schools should try to
    do.
    
    But to try to say to any audience that Notre Dame is perfect is not
    only false, but naive.  It's the same sort of attitude that took place
    in the sixties where white, middle-class Americans living in the
    suburbs denied the existence of a drug problem among its children.  It
    wasn't so then, and it's not so now.  You cannot categorically state
    that no Notre Dame football player is using steroids.  You cannot
    categorically state that no Notre Dame football players uses other
    drugs.  Notre Dame is not perfect, it's not Utopia; it's a college
    campus and it is going to have the same problems among the student body
    as the two schools I've attended, the University of Massachusetts (a
    large, state university) and Bentley College (a small, private business
    school) had, have and always will have.
    
    Lets also talk about Lou Holtz for a second.  Holtz is a great coach
    and he comes across as a nice guy, but he is one tough, hard nosed,
    SOB.  Anyone who coaches on that level has to be.  I'll go further. 
    Any coach who coaches on that level has either been dishonest to a
    player while being recruited, or has played a head game with a player
    to either try to better that player's performance or to try to get rid
    of the player, has tried to shame a player into playing hurt or has
    done something less than perfect in the interests of winning.  They
    have to.  It's their job.  They don't do in the interests of building
    character or building better human beings, either.
    
    I had to run home at lunch and I got the article.  Holtz tried to run
    Huffman's brother off the team at Arkansas because of injury, after
    stating in a meeting that "Anybody who is injured is on my s**t list." 
    Holtz tried to move Huffman's brother out of the athletic dorm so he
    wouldn't demoralize the other players.  Holtz had tried to get rid of
    Huffman as well, first kicking him off the team because of grades and
    then not letting him come back once the grades had improved.  That next
    winter, upon encountering Holtz in OHare Airport, Holtz invited him to
    come back.  Sure sounds like a head game to me.  The incident that
    precipitated the quitting was when Huffman went in and said he probably
    needed shoulder surgery because it was popping out on every play.  I
    don't know why he didn't go see the medical staff.
    
    This is not a man who is concerned about his players.
    
    John

    John,
    
    I agree with much of what you said but just as I mentioned in my 
    note...where do you get all your info about these things...the papers!
    If you were there and personally knew the players as I do I think you
    may think differently than you do!
    
    DJ
    
    PS  See you tonight at the game!

    Gentlemen,
              I, too am a proud graduate of Notre Dame and appreciate
    all comments in these NOTES regarding the university whether positive
    or negative You cannot understand and fully appreciate the Notre Dame
    environment with blinders on. You need to focus on the total picture
    whether the comments are positive or negative. Life is not perfect
    and neither is Notre Dame. And I honestly believe that the vast
    majority of ND grads do not foster a Holier than Thou attitude.
    I know the PERCEPTION exists that This attitude is rampant but I
    assure you it is not. I have great respect for all our football
    rivals but naturally would love to always beat the heck out of them
    That does not constitute a holier than tho attitude. 
    I challenge all who can to take atrip to South Bend and experience
    a football week-end. I think you will find a lot of gracious,
    hopefully humble rabid ND supporters. 
    
    ML
    

Lou Holtz has made a name for himself in many ways, in many places. He's
a big time motivational speaker. He's a Jesse Helms supporter. He's won
at a lot of colleges and lost big time in the Pros.

Now he's most prominent on 2 scandal fronts: Steroids currently at Notre
Dame and money laundering while he was at Minnesota.

Notre Dame should open the whole thing up for an NCAA investigation.
Anything less cannot be supported by their zealous fans and would indeed
by "damage control".

TTom

    I feel that Notre Dame sacrified a lot of its ideals when the
    university succumbed to the lure of big money in college football
    and hired Holtz in the first place.  My opinion of this guy is that
    he has always been a low-class sleazeball who rarely tells the truth,
    a person with little sense of loyalty to his employers, a person who
    is a shameless self-promoter, and someone without a proper sense of
    right and wrong.  Notre Dame lowered itself as an institution of 
    higher learning when they hired this man, and are now paying for
    their mistake with this negative publicity that tarnishes the school
    rather than the man responsible.  Holtz is a cancer that should be
    exorcised out of college football.
    
    Ironically, with its new TV contract and the lure of all the national
    recognition that comes with it, Holtz's teams will only get stronger.
    His gift of gab, added to the Notre Dame mystique, allows the Irish to
    annually recruit the best high school football talent in the country.
    If they don't win the national championship at least every other year
    it should be considered an off-season at South Bend.
    
    NAZZ

    >I haven't been to South Bend to see a Notre Dame game but I've seen
    >them in New Jersey's Giants Stadium, a supposedly neutral venue.
    >
    >All I saw was a bunch of loud, uncouth, mostly blitzed idiots dressed
    >up in leprechaun costumes.   Either that or little kids decked out in
    >green getups from head to toe.  I found it hard to keep an otherwise
    >excellent dinner from making a return trip out onto my shoes.
    
    
    I too was at NJ Giants Stadium and it was nothing like the atmosphere
    which is present in South Bend during a football weekend.  Quite a few
    of the people in NJ were the "subway alumni" who are great fans of ND
    but may get a bit out of hand.  Sure, fans get a bit looped out in
    South Bend too, but not to the 'qualifications' that you described. 
    Even my brother, whom is an avid hater of the Irish(because he went to
    Georgia Tech and they were big rivals during his years there) came out
    to a couple games while I was there and said there is nothing like it.
    
    Try it.
    
    -J.

Sports Illustrated has responded to the criticism of their story by
saying that the essential details of the Huffman story concerning
steroids was supported by "other sources".

I agree with one of Holtz's points: name names. If some coaches and
players were in on the deal, let's hear about it. This is one of the
really bad aspects of this type of story. A whole program is slurred and
no specific names are given. 

Come on, Huffman, let's hear who it was and get on with the business of
getting to the bottom of this.

TTom

    re .196
    
    Tom, Huffman wanted to get Holtz. Perhaps he doesn't want to make the
    other coaches life miserable ? They probably do not have the job
    security and rep as Holtz, and could really be damaged by exposure. And
    that might be unfair to them, when Lou is supposed to be the big fish.
    Like Bob alluded to, "damage control" will include the sacrificing of
    some of these assistants that Huffman might name, and that would
    accomplish little in the long haul.
    
    On a related note, yesterday's Nashua Telegram has an article by
    Huffman's older brother (the one that went to Arkansas), and he felt
    that everybody is missing the main push of the story - which is not
    steroid abuse, but the way some coaches will
    force/intimindate/sweettalk a player into playing with a serious
    injury, or playing with a nagging injury that could become cronic.
    
    Doc

    I am amazed at the fury in this notes file re Notre Dame.(I just got
    back from vacation, so I don't know the Huffman story, I never read
    newspapers or watch tv on vacation).  What interests me is the blind
    hatred against and blind love for ND that the last twenty replies show.
    Surely, we are talking college football here, not world peace or
    something really important.  ND is a football power - so is Tennessee,
    Georgia, USC, UCLA, Michigan,etc., and as such it has all of the trappings
    of big time college sports - money, steroid use, incredibly
    manipulative coaches, wonderful athletes, great entertainment. So do the
     other schools mentioned here. Its a fact of life - but, my
    god, its only college football. I will still enjoy ND football, but its
    in the proper priority in my life - entertainment. tjk  

    re .157
    Great film. great lines.
    Who can forget Marty Feldman playing Charades as the monster 
    attacks Gene Wilder  
    or "Put the candle back."
    or "Walk this way...no..no.. this way!"
    or "Abby. Abby Normal"
    tk
    

    re: .190
    
    I have never been to South Bend, in fact, I have never been to Indiana.
    
    But tell me, which of my facts do you want to dispute?
    
    John

    >I am a proud alumni of ND and I think if
    >any of you had gone there you might not be so high and mighty against
    >the Irish!  Believe it or not...the football players are little bit
    >higher class of people than most of the other football players in the
    >country. 
    
    Did you go to every other school and meet all the football players
    before determining which school's factory products are of the highest
    class?  I really doubt it, and so, using your logic (or lack of same) I
    choose to disbelieve your blindly loyal statement.
    
    Dan

Along similar lines, Dan, you'll be pleased to know that a 
big green horse van from Ontario is now spreading the gospel
of the Jets......8^)

HTH,
'Saw

    Tom Haas finally hit the nail on the haid.  Name Names, as Holtz
    has asked the quitter to do.  I don't like Lou Holtz, and I don't
    like a guy making accusations without naming names.  
    
    And to do a pre-defensive reply to a typical Dan note that I feel
    will come (since Dan HATES n.d.) - it would be like Deion Sanders
    telling the Atlanta Constitution that "Some Yankees use drugs, I
    seen them..." and then going no further.    My point all along has
    been that Huffman, as Dr. M. has reported, had a right to 
    want to reply to Lou Holtz - which is MAINLY what the articl is
    about - but instead he throws out the steriod line, and doesn't
    back it up.  IF Huffman, and for that matter, Sportsl Illustrated
    are in this for more than moeny and publicity, they'll come forward
    with names - and be able to prove wrong-doing.   
    
    Let's see if Huffman can finally finish something he started.
    
    JD

    Upon reflection, the naming names is something that bothers me and
    should also be done.  Huffman should put up or shut up.
    
    I stand by everything else I wrote other than one other mistake. 
    Huffman will get his ND degree but is finishing the last few credits at
    a community college near his home in Dallas.
    
    John

 What good does it do Huffman to name names that won't talk or will
 catergorically deny what he has said? People do lie you know...

 mike

What good it does is to provide specifics to the allegations and
innuendos.

Right now, the entire coaching staff is being slurred. It's always been a
premise of law to be able to face your accuser. Let's hear who it is that
did what and then let's litigate.

Of course, the real reason that names aren't given are other legal
issues. Name names and watch the libel/slander suits start.

TTom

    This note sounds more like a courtroom than a foot ball note.
    Bring on the season. 
                        Sept. 15th Michigan at N.D.
    
    GEE!!!!  I wonder if Michigan will kick to the Rocket. :*)

	Well folks all I had to do was look at who wrote the article and
I became immediately skeptical.  Rick Telander is a moralistic holier than
thou, who has decided that it is his lot in life to make college football
as perfect as he is.  Rick probably bit into this story like a starving
lion would a carcass, hurriedly and without thinking.  The fact that the
trophy would be Notre Dame made it all the sweeter.  Sorry, but Telander
is not exactly an unbiased reporter.

				/Don

    Telander has a real ax to grind, in terms of college sports. He feels
    that it sold its soul to big money(which it has), and all college
    sports should be down-sized.  ND must be a big target for him, but why
    doesn't he go after Miami, or USC or any other factory?  could it be
    that he played collegiate sports at Michigan? Nah, that wouldn't  have
    anything to do about his objectivity! 

    Small nit - Telander played at Northwestern.
    
    NAZZ

    College sports has sold its soul to the devil.   It is a morally
    bankrupt, greed-driven, and corrupt system that puts huge amounts of
    tainted dollar bills into the pockets of those who sweat the least. 
    
    The participants are given a token pittance in the form of a "free"
    education.  They are then denied reasonable amounts of time to pursue
    that education and subsequently severely punished for doing exactly
    what they were asked to do.
    
    The recruiting of college athletes is barely above the law.   Promises
    are made on the shabbiest of pretenses and then mercilessly broken
    whenever deemed appropriate.
    
    All of it overseen by fat cats who get richer by the minute.  And Notre
    Dame is at the top of this heap.
    
    For what it's worth ...
    
    Bob Hunt

>    College sports has sold its soul to the devil.   

OK, Bob, but we don't want to hear about it when Virginia finally wins an
ACC Football title outright, or when the Cavs finally undo Clemson, or
etc.

TTom

    TTom,
    
    I didn't say I didn't enjoy watching college sports.  I enjoy it
    immensely and, as you can guess, I will boast with the loudest of 'em
    when my beloved Wahoos do something special like the two first-ever
    feats you mentioned.
    
    The "system" is corrupt and really ought to be be fixed.  Remember, the
    only "sport" that's never had an integrity scandal of any kind is
    professional wrestling.
    
    Bob Hunt

       Telander goes into the story on this weeks 'Sportswriters on TV' on
    Sportschannel. He said if he had his druthers, his name wouldn't have
    been on the story. He let the player tell it basically in his own
    words. The only thing Rick did was help him with composition. He also
    said the guy NEVER asked for a cent. The SI staff decided to pay him
    right before the article was published.
                                          Denny

                   SCULLING HAD AN INTEGRITY SCANDAL !?!?!? 

   Hmmmphh
   Mike JN

    re:211 ,
    Oops, sorry bout that! I knew it was a Big10 factory he played at
    tom k.

   A Big Ten Factory!?!?! Northwestern!?!?!

   They've only won a handful of games in the last thirty years!

   Mike JN

    
    Yes, those who have SportsChannel should catch "The SportsWriters on
    TV" this week.  Telander and co. spend quite a bit of time talking
    about the article.  I think he has a lot of integrity.  He played
    college football in the Big 10 and obviously despairs about what has
    happened over the past 18-20 years since he played.
    
    Lots of us, I'm sure, went to a college with a big-time football or
    basketball program.  I did for two years.  The football players took
    courses like Shakespeare/Theater which involved building the sets for
    college plays.  Everyone knew about it and didn't care.  Most of us
    were there for an education and a degree.  The players were just, in
    a way, hired performers.  I believe 3-4 players made the NFL as
    regulars/stars.  A few got an education while playing football.  Most
    just faded away after four years, not to be seen or cared about
    again...
    
    If Notre Dame tries a little harder to achieve a slightly higher
    level of integrity than other schools, so what??  The system
    still stinks....
    
    Brian

    	Telander is a thirtysomething crusader with and axe to grind.
    College sports is big business and big entertainment.  Pay the
    performers and give them the option of an education either during
    their playing career or after it.  It's a pragmatic solution that
    offends those that have this Pollyanna ideal of what a college should
    be.
    
    				/Don

    Actually, /Don, Telander's "axe" as you call it, grinds a lot like your
    previous note.  He had a pragmatic solution for it too, which might
    interest you if you weren't so quick to label him biased for basically
    editing an article which points out the seamier side of Notre Dame, the
    side usually kept well hidden under the rug.
    
    Dan

    	Dan, I don't doubt there's been some shennigans at ND, I just
    can't stand Telander.  The night on the Sports Writers he got all
    over gambling and gamblers was Rick at his moralistic, righteous
    best.
    
    				/Don

       I don't think Telander would have any problem if they just came out
    and paid the players. What he doesn't care for is all the behind the
    back garbage by coaches, alums, and the NCAA. I have to say I pretty
    much agree with him. I say pay the players and you don't have to worry
    about all this other crappola.
                                    Denny

    Does anybody know anything about either these two quaterbacks ND has,
    I forget their names, but I guess a couple of years ago they highly
    sought after by other schools. From pre-season magzines they say that
    they cna throw the ball and ND will be throwing the ball. This will
    have alot to do with if ND wins another championship, they will have
    running game, and if one of these two guys can shine as a passer then
    during the big games (Miami) teams won't be able to set up to stop
    the run and not care about the pass. The ND, Michigan opener on
    Sept 15th, is that at 9:00 p.m. because my brother has tickets to
    the B.C. Ohio ST game, I want to make sure that I'm not gonna miss
    the game.
                                                   Dan

    Re: 224
    
    The Michigan game begins at 9:00 EDT or 8:00 EST.
    
    Player updates:
    
    The new issue of BLUE and GOLD just came out yesterday....that is the
    official ND football mag...that comes out weekly during the season.
    The story on the QB situation is that Rick Mirar is the starting QB
    and has a strong arm and will most likely be throwing a lot.  But the
    second string guy was supposed to be Jake Kelchner but he had academic
    troubles and is now attending Holy Cross Junior College accross the
    street from ND.  Pretty much the same as Tony Brooks did.  Should be
    back next semester....he has a great arm as well.
    
    So behind Mirer now are two freshmen...Kevin McDougal and BJ Hawkens.
    Both were highly recruited and are coming along very well.  Hawkens is
    much like Tony Rice but can pass much better!  Loves the option!
    
    Also, Tony Brooks is back looking better than ever, Mike Stonebreaker
    is back at starting linebacker and Boo Williams is back at Def. tackle.
    However, we have lost Troy Ridgely(Def lineman slated to start) due to
    academics and will be back next spring.  We have also lost Dorsy Levins
    (tailback) who has just undergone arthroscopic surgery and will miss
    the opener but should return for either Mich. St or Purdue.  Also
    TE Frank Jacobs decided to pursue baseball rather than football.
    
    Surprises of the year could be Fresh. Lake Dawson at split end and
    Soph. Jerome Bettis  at fullback.....Devon McDonald is over the injury
    that kept him out last year and looks stronger than ever!
    
    Dave

    re .206
    
    Mike - how do YOU know Huffman isn't lying????   People do lie you
    know...
    
    You gotta look at it from both sides.How do we know Huffman HIMSELF
    wasn't a steroid user?  People do lie you know...
    
    JD

 I don't JD,  but the fact of the matter is what does he have to gain 
 by lying reports are didn't even ask for the 5k to tell his story.
 ND has a lot more to hid so I tend to believe it's they who are doing
 the lying.

 mike

    re: 218
    with tongue firmly in cheek, I mentioned the factory at NU. However, to
    be a part of the big 10, they have to committ sizeable $$$ and
    resources, don't they, like recruiting budgets, topknotch playing
    facilities, etc., and even though they have lost for 30 years, they
    must be making money to stay in the big 10( or is it 11, or 12?)

    
    
    They have always been the "CHEATIN' IRISH" to me....
    
    I'm glad more and more people are starting to realize it.

    One of the favorite refrains of the anti's, especially Dan and Conatch,
    is that ND has backed out of the Miami-ND series.   Amazing how
    the facts don't seem to back that up.   This year was the scheduled
    end of the series that was signed oh so many years ago.  ND's schedule
    is full until 2004, while Miami's is also pretty full.   Seems Penn
    State wants to back out of it's 1993 and 1994 games with the Irish,
    due to their joining the Bigot10.   ND started to negotiate with
    Florida State (no slouch, though the anti's made it sound like ND
    was trying to schedule Holy Cross...).   Some folks said , Hey,
    why isn't ND trying to get the games in 93 and 94 with Miami?  Well,
    it seems Miami has a full slate those years, including powerhouses
    such as West Texas Cowboy Tech, etc...  To have any open dates,
    Miami will have to buy out contracts with one of their lesser
    opponents.Miami has not offered to do so yet.    Another myth 
    quashed.
    
    Thanks you for your continuing support.
    
    JD
    

    >Another myth quashed.                                         
    
    No, more like "More propoganda passed on."  It was big news 2 years ago
    or so when ND announced they were dropping Miami from, on the surface
    because they didn't want to fuel this rivalry where the boys didn't
    seem to like each other.  They even had press conferences to explain
    the whole thing.
    
    Now, the propoganda machine is churning again, and college football
    fans around the country are being asked to pretend that stuff never
    happened.
    
    JD, you root for ND like MorT roots for Indiana.  Get a grip.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    The reason 2 years ago were the same as now.  Schedules locked up.
    ND's schedule (among others) is negotiated well in advance - think
    about it Dan - they ahve every weekend booked for the next 15 seasons.
    
    And I put this in last year, and the year before, but you were too
    blinded by your hatred of ND to notice.   And remember Dan, I used
    to be a 'Canes fan, until Jimmy Johnson took over.   Now that he's
    gone, I'll have to see what course the team takes.   Penn State
    is another favorite of mine.  
    
    Dan, must be tough for you to live, being surrounded by propagandists
    from all the teams and players you hate.  Of course, you've never
    indulged in any propoganda yourself, now have ya Danny???
    
    JD
    

    >And I put this in last year, and the year before, but you were too
    >blinded by your hatred of ND to notice. 
    
    No JD.  I noticed that the newspapers, TV stations, Notre Dame AD and
    even Lou Holtz were telling a different story than the one you're
    telling now.
    
    It was a conscience decision to drop Miami from the schedule.  ND
    claimed they did it because the rivalry had taken a nasty turn.  Almost
    no one believed that and saw through the veneer to the truth:  ND
    doesn't like to lose, and enjoyed it even less with Miami whom they
    rightfully saw as a long time challenger.
    
    Now you put a new spin on an old story.  Just don't claim it has
    something to do with my dislike of ND.  The facts are all in my corner.
     
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    The series was scheduled to end after this season.  The next few
    years schedules were locked in.  Renewel, from what I remember,
    would not have happened immmediately, anyway.  
    
    Hey Dan, whatever.  I'll continue watching college football.  You
    can continue stewing over each ND victory - trying to find someone
    to BLAM for their sucess.  Blame it on the Irish, Dan.  Blame it
    on the Catholics, Dan.  Blame it on the media, Dan.   Everyone and
    everything is wrong but you and your opinions.  that's the bottom
    line Dan.   
    
    As long as ND beats USC again Dan, that's what will matter.  
    
    JD

I think both JD and Dan would agree that Notre Dame is the "Boston Celtics
of college sports".

It's interesting to watch you two battle over a non-Boston entity.  

    >            -< Poor ol' Dan, EVERYONE is out to get him... >-
    
    JD, I'm not the one putting in notes telling people to stop saying bad
    things about Notre Dame.  I'm not the one who wrote the article in
    Sports Illustrated.  I'm not the one who dropped Miami from the
    schedule.
    
    I don't know why you blame me for all these things.  Maybe you can make
    a new law that everyone has to like and support Notre Dame because you
    like them a lot.  Pardon me if I break it.  I'll still call them as I
    see them.
    
    Dan

>I think both JD and Dan would agree that Notre Dame is the "Boston Celtics
>of college sports".
    
    Most definitely.  Don't see how someone could land on both sides of the
    fence on these two.  I guess ND does better brainwashing.
    
    Dan                                              

    Dan,
    
    You're the most vocal of the anti-Nd'ers, so you get the comments
    jammed back at ya.   Yer right, Danny boy, not everyone has to root
    for Notre Dame - after all, this is America.  You know, the place
    where folks are innocent until proven guilty.  Unlike what certain
    folks have done concerning a certain article.    
    
    Say all the bad  things about ND you want, Danny, just expect to
    be called tothe carpet when you skew the facks.   
    
    jd
    
    Re:  Doug:  Nah, the Irish aren't the Celtics of the NBA - ND has
    class, ND has a real tradition, not a trumped up fake one, ND doesn't
    perpetuate the "Great White Hope" myth, ND thankfully doesn't have
    a moron like Johnny Most doing its games, ND doesn't have the Boston
    Globe andHerald writing kiss and tell stories about them.....

Does it really matter that they have dropped one another from the schedule?
I don't think so. Given that both are powerhouse and will remain in the
penthouse for quite a while I think they'll make an atractive bowl game
every year and what bowl with independant ties wouldn't want them? Then
again if Lou has his way he'll choose the safe bowls playing the West
Virgina's and Colorado's of the world....

mike

    
    mike,
    
    How can you say that LOU ducked a rematch two years ago?  It was never
    an option.  There was only two undefeated teams and that was the
    logical choice for the national championship.  Thats the way it always
    works and always will.  ND had already beaten Miami so there was no
    need to play them again when there was another team that was
    undefeated.  And let us remember that Colorado was the #1 ranked team
    at the end of last years regular season....doesn't sound like
    choosing a safe bowl game !  
    
    Also, let's remember that LOU does not make the decision...yes he has
    a say in it but the final decision is made by Dick Rosenthal the
    ND athletic director.
    
    Dave

 Seems to me that Lou told the Fiesta folks a week before the official
 bowl invitations came out that he would come only if they played West
 Virgina. While both teams were the only undefeated teams around can
 you truthfully say to me that West Virgina was a better team than
 Miami? Last year's matchup didn't matter cause Miami pasted them during
 the regular season and would have done the same in a bowl game. The year
 before though it took 7 TO's a questionable call at the goal line and a
 gutsy go for a two point conversion for ND to squeak out a 1 point victory.
 I think ole Lou feared he wouldn't be as lucky in a rematch.

 As a fan I wanted to see an ND/Miami rematch much more than I wanted to see
 an ND/West Virgina game. You know Jimmy Johnson wanted it as it was the only
 way he could capture the National Championship. I'm sure the Fiesta would
 have loved to had a rematch too but with ND having it choice of bowls Lou
 put the squezze on for who the opponent could be. If the Fiesta balked he
 simply could have went to the Cotton bowl against the SWC champ or the
 Orange against the Big Eight champ...

 mike

	I've listened to JD and Schnied long enough!  The real reason Notre
Dame dropped Miami is economics.  Notre Dame would rather face Miami in
the "name the bowl" bowl for the national championship than during the 
regular season.  Regardless if ND plays Miami or East Carolina they're going 
to sell out whether at home or on the road and get TV revenues to boot.  Miami
has always had trouble getting their fans to attend games, and getting ND
at home every other year is a revenue boost.  ND will not duck Miami in a bowl
game, which is what this move is really all about, money.

				/Don

    Thanks /Don.   Of course /Don, you realize  that while what you
    say makes sense, and is the best explanation given, that certain
    people won't believe it.   
    
    I'd love to see Notre Dame play Florida State, cuz I like the
    Seminoles,and the Penn State-ND game is always too much for me to
    handle, since it's tough for me to root for Penn St. over ND.
    
    JD

    FWIW, Miami now has a season ticket base of 57,000 which is up from
    less than 10,000 in the late seventies.
    
    It makes no sense for ND to play any major independent.  It makes about
    as much sense for them to play Florida State instead of Miami.  They
    aren't ducking anybody - by playing a Miami or a Florida State during
    the regular season, it costs them a lucrative bowl matchup.  I agree
    with Don 100%, and I'm no ND fan.
    
    Bowl committees don't want to rematch teams who've played during the
    regular season unless the game ended up in a tie.  The exception is the
    Rose Bowl, where Pac 10 teams regularly play Big 10 teams during the
    season, and rematches can be common.
    
    John
    

    I agree that West Virginia of 2 years ago was a definite cinderella
    with a soft schedule, but Colorado was no cinderella last year.  They
    were a legitimate contender for the national title, and totally
    outplayed ND in the first half of the Orange Bowl.
    
    Whether or not ND ducked Miami 2 years ago, the Irish certainly didn't
    want to play them in a bowl and get smoked.   The 31-30 game in South
    Bend was a hokey win for the Irish, and anybody who watched the game
    can tell that Miami was the superior team.  The best thing for college
    football that year would have been an ND-Miami rematch.  Going into the
    bowls, ND was #1, Miami #2, and WV was #3 or #4, and even if WV had
    beaten ND, Miami would've won the title with their 23-3 trouncing of
    NU.  A real national championship game would've been the top 2 teams,
    not a game between 2 undefeateds where WV was certainly over-rated and
    not a legitimate title contender.
    
    Joe  

    Joe,
    
    If West Virginia had beaten Notre Dame two Years ago, they would
    have been National Champs.  Don't kid yourself.  They would have
    been the only undefeated team, and would have beaten the #1 team
    in the nation in a major bowl game.   No way WVU doesn't win the
    title.   Say what you wnat, but ND of two years ago played and beat
    the #1 team (USC), the #2 team (Miami - and you can cry and whine
    all you want about the game), and the #3 team, West Virginia.  They
    had nothting to prove - of course, they didnt' play East Carolina
    either.
    
    JD

 Nice note /Don after obviously reading my note first  ;^)

 hahaa

    
    >    1) Miami has two other professional teams, the Dolphins and the Heat,
  
    Bob, is that "other" an intentional barb?
    
    
    Re: .245
    
       A 57,000 season ticket base makes Victor Kiam very envious.
    
    Dickster
    

    	I didn't see any note Mike.  8^)  About ND ducking Miami when
    they played West Virginia, historically bowl rematches don't make
    money.  Now while this game could've been an exception West Virignia
    was the more lucrative game from a sponsors viewpoint.  Cinderella
    against the mighty Irish.  Couldn't write a better script.
    
    				/Don

>    	I didn't see any note Mike.  8^)  About ND ducking Miami when
>    they played West Virginia, historically bowl rematches don't make
>    money.  Now while this game could've been an exception West Virignia
>    was the more lucrative game from a sponsors viewpoint.  Cinderella
>    against the mighty Irish.  Couldn't write a better script.
    
Can't get much more lucrative than #1 vs. #2 for the national title outright.
A rematch of ND-Miami would've had a great buildup with the way the refs gave
the game to ND earlier in the year.

On the subject of bowl rematches, one that comes to mind is the '79 or '80
(or whenever it was) Orange Bowl rematch between Nebraska and Oklahoma.  
I recall NU and their fans not being too happy with the rematch since NU
had already beaten OU in the regular season, but NU had beaten OU without 
the aid of officials.  OU won the Orange Bowl but I don't think it had any
national title ramifications.

Joe

    Two years later, and you're still crying about the refs.  Must be
    a Clemson fan too.....
    
    ;-)
    
    I do hope Miami rids itself of the Jimmy Johnson aura and goes back
    to simply playing good football, without the finger pointing, disco
    dancing and mouthing off that makes them look like a bunch of hoods.
    That's why JJ and Dallas are such a perfect pair - so easy to hate.
    The new Miami coach seems to be a much nicer person than JJ.  Now,
    if ND would get rid of Holtz and get a different coach, college
    ball  would be better to watch.  Thank God Penn State and Joe Paterno
    are constants.   No finger pointing, no disco dancing, no posturing
    or yelling, just good clean, classy football.
    
    JD

    Enough about Miami! I didn't hear anybody bitchin when Miami "ducked"
    FSU three years ago at bowltime. Let's leave the '88 game alone finally
    will ya!! Sure Miami might have been jobbed on that fumble at the ND
    end-zone but do you all recall that two plays later Tony Rice threw
    an interception that led to a Miami TD real quick-like?? And how about
    Leonard Conley's S-T-R-E-T-C-H for a TD at the end of the first half?
    He was actually Out of Bounds at the 3!! Hey, that was a great game
    that went back and forth and any team could have won. Sure Miami had
    7 turnovers but ND had 4 or 5 themselves. ND won and legitimately won
    the national title fair and square. Miami in my opinion( I don't agree
    with the majority of ND grads on this one) won the title last year
    fair and square. Let's bury the last two years and look forward to this
    year's game. In addition, now that Jimmy Johnson(did he and Switzer
    take the same ethics course) is gone,it seems that Miami is making
    hopefully great strides in upgrading their reputation under Jankovich
    and Erickson. I sure hope so as I personally knew someone from my
    hometown who was recruited by Schnellenberger and played for Johnson
    *(only a fourth stringer) who got into substance abuse problems and
    never received any help from anyone in the University. He felt like
    a number and ended up dropping out.Let's hope Miami has turned it
    around under their new administration.
    
       This one's for you Dan Schneider.
    
    I went to school at ND in the 70's and our big rival(still is!)
    was USC. ND only won two games from 'SC in the 70's( 73 and 77,
    their two national championship years) so the current ND winning
    streak of 7 wins in a row against SC is amazing to say the least.
    
    Herein is a story out of "Blue and Gold" Magazine that I will outline
    and hope you find amusing.
    
    " My buddy Patrick walked into a pub in Santa Monicawith his dog to
    grab a beer and catch the ND-USC football game.He ordered two beers,
    one for himself and one for his dog.The dog, a beautiful Irish
    setter jumped right up on the stool,lapped away at his beer and started
    watching the game.
     The bartender yelled, "hey buddy, you can't have your dog in here!"
    Patrick replied"C'mon dude,he's gotta watch the game,he's a big Irish
    fan!"
      "This I have to see," smirked the bartender,an obvious Trojan fan.
        USC drove down the field and scored. Sure enough,Patrick's dog
    started moaning and whining,put his head down on the bar and almost
    spilled his beer. You could see the tears flowing from his eyes.
       Then Notre Dame got the ball and answered the score. The dog
    picked his head up off the bar and gave an optimistic yelp of 
    approval.
       The game went back and forth until the fourth quarter when the
    Irish finally pulled out an exciting come-from-behind victory.As
    you can imagine,Patrick's dog went nuts,barked the Notre dame fight
    song,gave high paws,.did some backflips and started lapping up
    everyone's beer
        The bartender was totally amazed and said, "Hey pal,your dog really
    goes bananas when Notre Dame beats USC.But I've got to ask you: What
    does he do when USC beats Notre Dame?
        Patrick replied, " Gosh, I don't know.He's only seven!!"
    
    End of story. Enjoy it while we can!!
    
    
    Mike L.
    
     
     

>>    Let's bury the last two years and look forward to this
>>    year's game. In addition, now that Jimmy Johnson(did he and Switzer
>>    take the same ethics course) is gone

    Jimmy Johnson has never been accused of any wrong doing while he was
    at Miami. All he's guilty of doing is winning football games. Same
    as the heat Lou Holtz gets now from anti-ND. In fact Johnson cleaned
    up the program after the 86? Fiesta Bowl (Miami vs Penn St.). 

>>    I sure hope so as I personally knew someone from my
>>    hometown who was recruited by Schnellenberger and played for Johnson
>>    *(only a fourth stringer) who got into substance abuse problems and
>>    never received any help from anyone in the University. He felt like
>>    a number and ended up dropping out.Let's hope Miami has turned it
>>    around under their new administration.

    I have news for you fourth stringers on the highschool football teams
    are just a number. If he had a drug problem, the 1st step is to get
    get help yourself not blame someone else for not helping. I don't
    want to get into a discussion on drugs and who should help who. I'm
    just saying that all big football programs are the same. They all field
    good teams year in year out, and there all hated for something (Miami
    likes to dance, ND gets accuse of getting all the calls) blaw, blaw.
    If Miami wants to dance after big plays let them or have the ref throw
    a flag on them. If ND get all the calls by the ref, good for them, I
    wish my team got all the calls too.

    The College football world is big and people see what they want to see.
    
Chuck

    It sure gets old to hear athletes complain about just being a number,or
    being used by the Univ. They have to realize that they are students
    first and athletes second.  The Univ. don't owe them anything, the
    athletes choose to play it is not a requirement.  If they get caught up
    with drugs or with the law it is their problem and not the
    Universities's.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    Hey Chuck,
    	It's too bad that you think that all fourth-stringers are
    considered a number,they shouldn't be at Miami,ND or elsewhere.
    All I know is what this guy felt was going on with him at Miami
    at the time. He developed his drug habit at Miami,did not blame
    anyone but himself,and thought that neither the football powers
    or the admin was there for him. They did not care if he went to
    classes or how he got involved in drugs but simply wished he would
    go away.And he did. I agree that this is all subjective on his part
    but what he wished to portray was that in his opinion Jimmy johnson
    and his staff did not want to get involved. In my ,opinion this
    guy brought a lot of this on himself,but as an 18 yr old ,kid away
    from home,went looking for help and received none. I sincerely
    believe that Miami is better off with Erickson under Jankovich and
    that any doubts(and there are many) about the comm,ittment that
    Miami has towards its athletes will disappear. I have been at Miami
    in the 70's and I knew a few people who went to school there and
    the school does have many excellent academic programs. Their very
    good academic reputation has been overshadowe by the PERCEPTION
    that they don't have a committyment to their athletes. Jankovich
    and Erickson have made a committment in that arena and that bodes
    well for Miami and college football in general. I believe that
    Johnson leaving Miami will greatly aid Jankovich's efforts and that
    Erickson can match him coaching an recruiting-wise. Hey, Good luck
    to Miami,I have nothing against them. They obviously have a great
    team and program.
    
    ML
    
    
    

    	Why should a football team be concerned with anything but a
    player's performance?  Don't these schools have counselors?  If
    a coach has to "be there for someone" every time he misses his momma,
    or just broke up with his girlfriend he'll be looking for a job
    pretty soon.
    
    				/Don

    ND has announced it will play Florida State in 1993 and 1994 to replace
    Penn State on its football schedule.  The 1993 game will be at Notre
    Dame and the 1994 game will be in Orlando.
    
    Joe

    ML,

       Its a cruel world and any fouth stringer on a football team or
    an engineer working at DEC is just a number. Coaches and Managers
    don't have the time to deal with 4th stringers, not because they
    don't want to, because they have work to do that will better help
    the team/organization. It happens all time and everywhere, sad in
    a way.

       Sure you think theres improvement under coach Erickson, the whole
    free world thinks the same thing because that no good Jimmy Johnson
    is gone. Lets give coach Erickson four years at the top of the college
    football world and I bet most non-Miami fans will be calling him
    slime for this or that. It happened to Johnson and at ND with coach Lou.
    When coach Lou steps down, most of the anti-ND fans will be saying
    "ND doesn't get the same amount of calls by the refs as they use to with
    coach Lou". Its a circle and it goes full cycle.

    Chuck

    >             -< N.D. schedules another patsy eh Schneid? >-
    
    They've can't replace PSU with a patsy, could they?  You on their
    bandwagon now, too?
    
    BTW, earlier this week, a certain noter told me that Notre Dame
    couldn't schedule Miami because of scheduling difficulties and they
    were all booked up for 15 years.  They can manuever that schedule
    pretty quick when they want to, I guess...
    
    Dan

    
    That a way to go CANES!!!  Look what happens when they play a real
    team!    
    
    ND  no. 1 this week!!!
    
    Dave

    Notre Dame has the toughest schedule in the country, Florida is second,
    Stanford is 3rd and Miami is 4th (or it's Miami 3rd or Stanford 4th). 
    This was from this week's Sporting News.
    
    John

    >> ND  no. 1 this week!!!
    
    Until Michigan whips them Saturday!
    
    GO WOLVERINES!!

    BYU over the Canes - I watched it and Miami couldn't figure out what
    was happening. BYU was sky high all night, and they took it to Miami.
    

    Dan,
    
    You didn't read - ND's schedule was locked up - unless Penn State
    wanted out after 92.  Penn State did, ND signed Florida State to
    take their place.  Miami's schedule was booked the two years PSU
    left open on ND's schedule.  
    
    And you can look it up.
    
    JD

    
    Dan is quite correct that Notre Dame made a conscious decision (not a
    conscience decision-- that'll come later) at the time to drop Miami 
    from their schedule.  Negotiations were on-going with Miami to extend
    this series at the time the decision was made and future schedule
    commitments were *not* the issue.  Notre Dame even released a statement 
    that said something to the effect that they didn't like the way the 
    series had affected off-the-field behavior of the players and fans and
    how it had strayed so far from the ideals of college sport, etc.
    
    Later, under pressure from Miami, which desired badly to continue the 
    series, Notre Dame said they'd consider it if they had any openings 
    down the road.  This, not the original decision, is what prompted the
    mini-controversy over Notre Dame further slighting Miami for Florida
    State.  The article I read made no mention of Notre Dame contacting
    Miami about a possible change or buy-out in Miami's schedule, either.
    
    All of which goes to show that while Notre Dame does consistently play
    one of the toughest schedules in the country, they don't enjoy getting
    their butts kicked year-in, year-out any more than the next guy, which
    is pretty much what happened with Miami in the 80's.
    
    glenn (back for the college gridiron season)
    
    

    Notre Dame did the same thing with the Army series in the late forties.
    Students of college football history will remember that the Notre Dame
    vs Army series in the 40s was the biggest thing college football had
    seen to that point.  Both schools actually thought the series was
    getting too big, there was too much attention being paid to it and it
    was in the best interests of both schools to cool it.
    
    Notre Dame's longest standing continuing rivalries have been with
    Southern California and Navy.
    
    John

    As long as USC kicks the hell out of ND, I'm a happy camper ....
    
    DrM - Who loves to remind ND fans about that 55 point run USC applied
    to the Irish back in the Davis era .... heh heh heh 

    Marinovich had an excellent game statistac-wise against Syracuse, and
    USC has a good test this week against Penn State.  Last year's game
    against ND was a heartbreaker.  USC had the Irish beat, but their
    defense couldn't do the job in the 2nd half.
    
    I actually agreed with Lou watching his TV show last night when he
    admitted ND was lucky to beat Michigan the last 2 years.  The
    Wolverines won't choke this year though.  Holtz also said he's never
    known a team to win the national championship with 1 win.  Sure about
    that Lou?
    
    Joe   
       

    	How did USC do against ND in the 80's DrM?  Looks like you have
    to resort to the history books to get your heh, heh, hehs...
    
    				/Don

    Re .272
    
    Ouch! I've got flashback!! I was in the Coliseum that tragic
    (for ND) day. Like I mentioned earlier,the ND-USC rivalry
    swings back and forth. Hope this current streak don't end until
    I'm dead and buried!
       Hey Chuck,with the devil Jimmy Johnson departed,it looks as
    if Miami under Erickson got religion(no pun intended ) against
    BYU. Maybe they need to get more vicious again. Time will tell
    
    Ciao,
    ML
    

    ML,

        I didn't get to  see the game, I still can't believe they
    lost to BYU. They're either over-rated or just didn't show up.
    Erickson has to get his boy's dancing and prancing because
    they seem to feed off of it. Should be a good college football
    season. The race for number one will be a log jam. ND is in the
    drivers seat and if there young QB can handle the rush the opposing
    defenses are going to throw at him, I would say ND will be number
    1 this year.
    
    Chuck

    
    Gotta love them IRISH!  28-24 over Michigan!!  Though ND's defense had 
    it's troubles you have to give them credit for stopping Michigan when 
    it counted.  Mirer looked great considering it was his first start,
    showing a lot of poise on that last drive.  
    
    The Irish shouldn't have too much trouble for the next few weeks, and
    during that time hopefully the defense will mesh a little better and 
    Mirer will get even stronger.  Just waitin' for the 'Canes!!!!
    
    Dave

    irish run defense was deplorable, they were lucky to win
    
    
    dinz
    

   >> they were lucky to win
    
      As usual.

      Third year in a row Michigan should've won.  This game was strikingly
    similar to last year's USC-ND game.  USC also had a 10-point lead last
    year and let ND off the hook.  As a matter of fact, wasn't the USC-ND
    score 28-24 also?  Disgusting.

         
      Joe
                                  

    Honest question:  Has Michigan *EVER* come up big in a game that means
    anything?  I'm just asking cause to the "casual" college football fan
    (the one who only watches games that are semi-important) I don't think
    I've ever seen them win outside the B10!
    
    Cough, choke, GAG!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

   Didn't they win the Rose Bowl lasted year?

   Mike JN

    ND played two games saturday, they played well in the first quarter,
    lousy in the 2nd and 3rd, and good in the fourth. This incosistency is
    a sign of a young team, I think. Lou was lucky, but Michigan called
    some real dumb plays.  Stonebreakers INT was the result. I don't think 
    Elvis evensaw him.  Go Irish! tk 

    Cant't believe that Michigan blew that game - they must have ran for
    300 yards.
    
    The real killer was when ELvis (I got sick of the announcers tell me
    how intellgent he was) tossed that INT in the endzone after Michigan
    had ran the ball down the field, 8,10, 15 yards a crack ... what a
    give-away game.
    
    Here's a real nightmare : ND and BYU playing for the National Title.
    
    Gag !!!

    FWIW, Michigan did have a come-from-behind win at UCLA last year.
    
    Can't believe Grbac.  He plays a great game until they have a first
    down at the ND 11, then throws a pass that was not only underthrown but
    his receiver wasn't even close to being open.  Then after ND goes
    ahead in the final seconds, Michigan gets a good return to about their
    45 and Grbac throws a pick right to an ND player.
    
    The 2 key plays were the int. right to Stonebreaker and the hokey
    reception on 3rd and 15 where the pass was caught after deflecting off
    the hands off Rocket.  
    
    Still can't believe Michigan let it get away!!
    
    Joe
    

    Much as I hate to say it, Michigan seldom wins a big game when it
    really matters.  Their bowl record is poor and they can usually be
    counted on for at least one other important non-conference loss every
    year.
    
    They won the 1989 Rose Bowl over Southern Cal but the Trojans beat them
    in 1990 in Bo's last game.
    
    John

    Joe,
    
    Geez, Old Notre Dame only wins on luck, never on talent.  Hmmm.
    Poor lucky guys.  Wish they had talent to win games, instead of
    luck.  Boy oh boy.   Of course playinjhg Michigan isn't like playing
    the California Golden Bears, now is it?
    
    JD

    >Geez, Old Notre Dame only wins on luck, never on talent.  Hmmm.
    >Poor lucky guys.  Wish they had talent to win games, instead of
    >luck.
    
    Keep whining, JD.  Yeah, your poor favorites, Notre Dame, just don't
    get enough publicity for winning college football games.  They're just
    shunned by the media, the networks, and the fans (most of whom only
    root for the team because of the word "Irish" in their nickname).
    
    My view is, again, that ND is the most talented team in the country. 
    Does that make JD happy???  They have been the most talented team in
    the country and will continue to be, thanks the outrageous exposure and
    popularity they enjoy.  They have a huge, well-defined edge in
    recruiting both with the TV and media blitz and playing up to the
    Irish-Catholic crowd in this country.
    
    If they had anything less than an extremely tough schedule it would be
    a travesty, which is why I was upset when they turned chicken on Miami. 
    The toughness of their schedule is the only possible way to balance
    their huge edge in recruiting.
    
    It is an ominous sign for anyone who enjoys competition that BYU plays
    a patsie schedule from here on out.  Come December we may hear the
    tired old refrain again:  ND is playing the unbeaten team on New Year's
    Day.  And everyone who isn't a ND supporter will know that their are
    tougher teams available but ChickenShit Lou Holtz just loves the back
    door.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    The note you replied to was aimed at a certain noter.   So good
    of you to reply though.   Personally, I think if BYU goes undefeated
    and no other team does, then they should be national champs, just
    like in 1984.
    
    See Dan, ND is in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't". 
     Miami played a chickenshit team in Alabama last year, but I didn't
    hear the anti's crying and whining about that, now did I?    The
    year before, they beat the #1, #2, #3 and #4 team, and chickenshits
    like you still whine about them not playing a true bowl game.
    
    I've never said ND doesn't get enought publicity, they get plenty,
    as do Miami, Penn St., USC, UCLA, Michigan, and the rest of the
    big football powerhouses.  
    
    If ND played the type a schedule the anti's teams played, they'd
    probably go undefeated every year.  Never hear that from the fair
    and mighty crowd, led by you, Mr. Hypocrite of the Modern World.
    
    I'm more worried about Penn State being 0-2 then anything else in
    college footaball.   
    
    JD (Who's taunting Dan while writing this....)

    Slasher, quit yer whining - ND was outplayed - end of story. Michigan
    lived up to it's tradition and performed the Deep Throat 4th Quarter
    Choke Job .....
    
    As fo the National Title ... BYU was undeservedly ranked high in the
    preseason, managed to get by it's one tough game, and will probably
    walk through the weak WAC and finish undefeated. Then they'll play 1) A
    patsy in the Holiday Bowl (like when the narrow defeated a 6-5 Michiagn
    team in 1984), or 2) ND.
    
    Either way, they'll be the catalyst for a playoff system. 
    
    As for the Irish, I doubt that they'll go undefeated, unless the
    scheudle is really weak. Miami should pound them. I'm sure Virgina
    would, but ND will probably play BYU, a team that they can physically
    overpower.

doc, 

Quit yer whining. ND won , Michigan lost. End of story.

dan,

You're a hypocrite. What ever ND does is bad according to you. Do you think that
ND has that much of a recruiting edge over the Miami's, and Florida's of this
world? I don't. They might have an advantage over a Nebraska or Oklahoma or
Clemson when it comes to recruiting national talent but not over Miami.

Let's see. ND beats #1,#2,#3, and the #4 teams in one year yet they ducked teams
in the bowl games. It doesn't make sense. 

They run a relatively clean program and get lots of press so people hate them.

Makes sense to me,

 Metz

    >JD (Who's taunting Dan while writing this....)
    >led by you, Mr. Hypocrite of the Modern World.
    
    Gee, I extend an olive branch by calling ND talented and I get this
    rubbish in return.  You ND athletic supporters sure have a keen sense
    of fair play.
    
    > ...Dan's ball, first and 10.
    
    Unless JD's been gobbling up steroids like ND football players, I'd
    rather play against some more even competition.
    
    Dan

    
    'Saw,
    
    	Are we gonna let Sarge get away with calling Bama chickenshit?
    	I don't know about you, but that really burns my grits!  ;^)
    
    Claybone

You I saw that, and it just didn't register wif me, and I figured I
musta had too many shrooms for lunch.

JD -- Bama wasn't chickenshit.  They were a good team under a good coach,
(a coach who got screwed over I might add).  They just lost.

The power and pride of the Crimson Tide still exists, but it might
be a while before it comes back....8^(

'Saw

    Saw,
    
    I used Bama as an example, because if ND had played them (while
    ranked #1), they would have been called 'chicken poop' by Schneider
    logic....
    
    JD

    
    Dan, I'll play's footballs against you. No problem! I'll even wear
    my Norte Dame sweatshirt! What is it you got against us Irish Catholics
    anyway? Your just pissed because Shwartz U had a losing season lasted
    season! 8^)))))))))))))))))))
    
    
    
    Steve

   Notre Dame has a distinct DISadvantage when recruiting. They make it
   clear up front that unless the player in question conducts themselves
   as a responsible student-athlete, and performs well on the field, off
   the field, in the class room, and abides by the rules... they and their
   scholarship will be history. As you can imagine this doesn't appeal to
   many individuals who, while great football players, are basically
   drug-ridden thugs. (So they go to Miami instead) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (tm)

             [ How's that for tellin' it like it is, Howard? ]
    
   Mike JN

    Looks like Mike Stonebreaker listened real well to those "rules",
    didn't he ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    hes a braker of rules that stonebreaker dude
    
    

    >I used Bama as an example, because if ND had played them (while
    >ranked #1), they would have been called 'chicken poop' by Schneider
    >logic....
    
    I suggest you don't try to use Schneider logic.  It's dangerous in
    inexperienced hands...
    
    Dan

    >Dan, I'll play's footballs against you. No problem! I'll even wear
    >my Norte Dame sweatshirt! What is it you got against us Irish Catholics
    >anyway?
    
    That's good.  I plan to start up some weekend touch football action
    soon.  I hear the Hebron Heifer Stuffers are rarin' to go!
    
    Anyway, I have nothing against Irish Catholics.  Rather, I have
    something against an institution (ND) that expliots there quasi-
    relationship with religion and nationality for financial and athletic
    gain.
    
    Dan

   >Notre Dame has a distinct DISadvantage when recruiting. They make it
   >clear up front that unless the player in question conducts themselves
   >as a responsible student-athlete, and performs well on the field, off
   >the field, in the class room, and abides by the rules... they and their
   >scholarship will be history.
    
    You had better not check out the reality of the recruiting wars then. 
    I believe ND has been rated as the best recruiter something like 4 of
    the past 5 years, and with the new TV/greed contract, there is no end
    in sight is this supreme advantage, despite the fact that you'd like to
    think otherwise.
    
    >         [ How's that for tellin' it like it is, Howard? ]
    
    { Pret-ty bad, Dan-dy Don.  Bet-ter lay off that bot-tle... }
    
    Dan

   RE: Stonebreaker

   	This supports my contention: He broke the rules, and although he
   was considered their premeir linebacker, he sat out THE SEASON!!! Not a
   little piddly one game suspension. 

   RE: Schneid

   	I hope you're right re: ND superiority for the future. It  hasn't
   been very long ago that I used to watch ND getting trounced by a
   mediocre Airforce Academy.

   Mike JN

    
    Bring on those Hefers! I'll make hamburger out of them. 
    Sounds to me like you have a personal vendetta against
    Notre Dame, did they turn you down for a scholarship? 8^)
    
    
    
    Steve

>   It  hasn't
>   been very long ago that I used to watch ND getting trounced by a
>   mediocre Airforce Academy.

    FOUR years in row, at that!
    
    
    Joe

   >	I hope you're right re: ND superiority for the future. It  hasn't
   >been very long ago that I used to watch ND getting trounced by a
   >mediocre Airforce Academy.
    
    That could have only happened during the Faust years.
    
    Thank god for the Faust years!!!
    
    BTW, Stonebreaker was hurt in his drunken car accident.  That's why he
    sat out the season.  As always, ND disciplines "quietly"  (see Steroid
    Abuse). 
    
    Dan

    >Sounds to me like you have a personal vendetta against
    >Notre Dame, did they turn you down for a scholarship? 8^)
    
    I have a personal vendetta against self-righteousness and hypocrisy.
    
    Dan

    
    You have a vendaetta against yourself?

Well, I don't know if the Hebron Heiffer stuffers are in existence
this year.

What with playing rugby on Saturday afternoons, I truly need Sunday's
to heal up a little bit.

But, we might be able to get up for a game.  Worst case I could
just coach 8^)

'Saw

    And what, may I ask, is wrong with imposing quiet discipline?  Why
    should every little infraction by a college athlete be broadcast across
    the papers?
    
    I'm no Notre Dame fan, but they have far fewer incidents than most
    other schools competing on that level.  People in the Patriots
    personnel department say that Notre Dame athletes are by far
    consistently the most intelligent, politest and best dressed athletes
    they have coming in for interviews.
    
    In the Stonebreaker incident, he was forbidden from driving on campus
    because of a drunk driving incident.  Most other schools would have
    done nothing.  He was suspended because he was helping a fellow student
    move, the car was parked illegally and he moved the car.  He got caught
    and was suspended.  I don't think this makes him a bad citizen and I
    credit Notre Dame for nailing him over what seemed to be a relatively
    minor incident.
    
    John

    For Dock,
    
    Here's the remainder of ND's schedule:
    
    9/22  at Mich St.
    9/29  PURDUE
    10/6  STANFORD
    10/13 AIR FORCE
    10/20 MIAMI
    10/27 at Pitt
    11/3  at Navy
    11/10 at Tennessee
    11/17 PENN STATE
    11/24 at USC
    
    Prediction:  1/1/91 vs Auburn in Sugar Bowl
    
    Andre
    

    >You have a vendaetta against yourself?
    
    I haven't experienced such a mature, witty comeback since your clothes
    went out of style.
    
    Dan

    >And what, may I ask, is wrong with imposing quiet discipline? 
    
    Because, so often in college athletics, it's usually a euphemism for
    doing nothing.
    
    >He was suspended because he was helping a fellow student
    >move, the car was parked illegally and he moved the car.  He got caught
    >and was suspended.
    
    Perhaps I'm remembering a different incident, but what you say doesn't
    sound accurate at all.  I thought Stonebreaker was drunk driving, got
    in an accident, was fairly seriously injured and there was another
    injured party (a date) as well.
    
    Dan

    John, if that incident got Stonebreaker suspended, then I'd call that
    childish and petty of ND. 
    
    Sorry, but that's the type of thing that is used to make examples of
    players in the media, and I find it repugnant.

 Stonebreaker incident in chronlogical order:

 1. Injuried and arrested for drunken driving. Injury forces him to miss
    entire season. I believe he broke his leg.

 2. Stonebreaker's right to drive on campus removed as part of his punishment
    by ND. Law gave him community service and alchol education classes. Not 
    sure but I think his BAC was 0.15.

 3. Stonebreaker caught moving illegaly parked car while helping a friend move
    gets suspended by ND.

   This is from my memory of following the incidents in TSN.....

   So while the suspension was enforced it in no way shape or form hurt the
   football team or Stonebreaker except that he missed some classes. Which
   he probably enjoyed because he got to party more this is my own opinion not
   a fact.

   So while ND didn't turn away and do nothing, it wasn't much of a punishment
   either more of a statement that hey we don't let them get away with anything
   around here we do something. Another media proganda blitz if you ask me....

   If they were as tough as they'd like us to believe Stonebreaker would have
   also been suspended for a game or two this year but hey this kid's a player
   not a second or third string, God forbid we take him away from Lou and
   Touchdown Jesus....

   mike

    
    re: Stonebreaker
    
    I was going to school at ND at the time of the stonebreaker incident
    and John is 100% correct.  Stoney got in a car accident(DWI) and broke
    his hip and injured a young lady as well.  He thus had his driving
    privledges revoked and proceeded to violate that as well and was
    suspended.  He then reapplied to school the next semester and was
    granted admission and football eligibility.
    
    I'm not sure how much press it got natioanlly, but on the local level
    it was very much publicized.  As biased as I may be, I think the whole
    incident was handled in a very appropriate manner...Stoney got what he
    deserved both in the courts and on campus.
    
    Dave

    I agree that discipline should be imposed fairly and equally no matter
    what the situation is and no matter whether the offender is an athlete
    or a musician.
    
    I still don't see what is so bad about disciplining an athlete and not
    having it broadcast in the news.  These guys have a right to privacy.
    
    Finally, Stonebreaker was healthy enough to play during the year he was
    suspended so they did lose him and it did hurt the team.  He was
    prevented from driving on campus, he broke a rule, he was punished. 
    Like I said, I'm not a Notre Dame fan, but to punish someone of his
    prominence for breaking of a relatively minor rule when it would have
    been very easy to sweep it under the rug is something to be commended.
    
    John

    
    The Globe reported this morning that Todd Lyght will miss the game
    against Michigan St. this saturday due to either a hamstring or a
    pulled groin.  A tough blow to the defense.  But you never know,
    Lou may just be blowing smoke!
    
    Dave

    Dave, would Stonebreaker have missed the season he was under suspension
    anyway because of his injury?  If so then I agree, it wasn't much of a
    punishment.  If he would have been able to play then it was an
    appropriate punishment.  Also, it didn't hurt the team very much since
    they probably wouldn't have beaten Miami last year even if they had
    him.
    
    John

    
    
    He could have played if not for the suspension.
    
    
    
    Lou

    
    How old is Stonebreaker?  Is he a sixth-year junior or something at
    this point?
    
    glenn
    

   He's a grad student...

   	I think this is his last year of eligibility. but I'm not
   positive.

   Mike JN

    >I still don't see what is so bad about disciplining an athlete and not
    >having it broadcast in the news.  These guys have a right to privacy.
    
    Do you see anything wrong with sweeping problems under the rug, and
    then covering up to the docile press with a pledge of "quiet
    discipline"?  That is the case more than not.
    
    >Finally, Stonebreaker was healthy enough to play during the year he was
    >suspended so they did lose him and it did hurt the team.  
    
    I don't think so.  WHen he was in his original accident, he broke his
    leg and they were talking about his career.  He was still on crutches
    when the next season started, last September.  He was injured, he
    missed the season.  No discipline involved.  That was the original
    offense by the way, which people defending ND seem barely able to
    acknowledge, as if his problems started with parking a friends car.
    
    >He was
    >prevented from driving on campus, he broke a rule, he was punished. 
    >Like I said, I'm not a Notre Dame fan, but to punish someone of his
    >prominence for breaking of a relatively minor rule when it would have
    >been very easy to sweep it under the rug is something to be commended.
    
    Pause before you commend the holy angels.  If that were the real world,
    and not Notre Dame, let's say it happened in Mass. where I'm familiar
    with the law.  Stonebreaker, with his license suspended because of OUI
    (leave out the bodily harm to the second party...Holtz probably gave a
    South Bend Sherrif sideline passes or something...or maybe poaid him
    off with the Minnesota slush fund interest.  Who knows?) is caught
    driving again.  Say hello to 30 days behind bars.  Say hello to a year
    without a license.   What's that?  Lou Holtz is on the phone?  Well
    just say hello to quiet discipline then, Notre Dame style.  And have a
    good game on Saturday, Steve.  Kick some heathen ass for me.
    
    And Miami players get persecuted for dancing after they score a
    touchdown...
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    If you'll read a further reply I said that I don't agree with sweeping
    problems under the rug.  Not at all.  I feel and still feel that
    athletes on a college campus or in the pros should be held to the same
    standards of conduct, no more, no less, than the other members of the
    general populace.  The thing I object to is an athlete getting more
    publicity than a member of the general populace for a violation of a
    rule.  That's why I agree with quiet discipline, not because I see it
    as a means of having a misconduct being swept under a rug.  Nor do I
    agree with coaches trying to coerce people who an athlete has committed
    a crime against from dropping charges.
    
    Now, does that clarify my position or do I have to spell it out
    further?
    
    I will also agree with you that if Stonebreaker was injured and unable
    to play during the 1989 season, then his suspension was nothing.  I
    don't know that for sure and neither does anyone here, because there is
    substantial disagreement on this point.  I also said this in a
    subsequent reply.
    
    I will also agree with you that *IF* his license was suspended and *IF*
    he was caught driving with a suspended license, then the one year
    suspension was probably inadequate and he probably should have been
    thrown in jail.  However, the crime of moving the car was committed in
    Indiana and not in the People's Republic of Massachusetts.  The crime
    of moving the car took place on private property and not on a public
    street.  I believe that it was up to ND to punish him in whatever way
    they saw fit.  Now, *IF HE WAS PUNISHED IN THE SAME MANNER THAT A
    NON-ATHLETE WAS PUNISHED AND IN ACCORDANCE WITH ND'S LAWS* then I
    believe things were done appropriately.  The laws of Massachusetts
    don't apply in Indiana, so if he was punished appropriately with the
    laws of Indiana, not the laws of Massachusetts, then there should be no
    complaint with that.
    
    I don't know why I'm using so many keystrokes to defend the place
    anyway.
    
    John

    Dan,
    
    Wake up, willya!  We live in a country where DRUG PUSHERS and RAPISTS
    don't necessarily end up in jail, and in the cause of drug pushers,
    usually they don't, yet you really think Stonebreaker, if he was
    a 'normal' human would have for driving without a license?  
    
    Dan, take an enema, willya - get the anti-ND bias out of you.
    
    While I agree that problems shouldnt' be swept under the rug, nor
    should every single incident be blown up in the national press.
    
    Now, Danny boy, Stonebreaker was disciplined - and even though it
    doesn't match your 'Hang em and throw away the key cuz he's from
    Notre Dame', most schools wouldn't have disciplined him at all -
    and that's obvious.   Stonebreaker also received his undergrad degree
    and is in grad school, but I'm sure in your eyes that simply means
    that ND cheated some how.
    
    Since I wasn't in Indiana at the time, and don't know what charges
    were filed, I can't automatically assume what you have - namely
    you infer a massive coverup, bribery of officials, lying, etc.
    
    Now Dan, you supposedly claim to right for what is just - it would
    seem that your self-proclaimed high and mighty morals wouldn't include
    condemning without facts.  Or, Danny boy, are you simply a hypcrite?
    
    JD

    Thank you very much, JD.  I was beginning to wonder where all the Notre
    Dame fans were.  It felt awfully lonely defending the school without
    any help.  I appreciate it.
    
    John

    Dan, what's your problem?  Why did you make such a foolish statement
    as "Kick some heathen ass for me"?  What is that supposed to mean?
    What is your definition of "heathen" in this context?
    
    You don't like ND.  Fine.  You like the 'Canes.  Fine.  Why do you
    appear to be reaching out for some religious basis to support your
    position?  Or am I reading something between the lines that wasn't
    really meant to be there?
    
    Please explain.
    
    Lee
    

    
    > You don't like ND.  Fine.  You like the 'Canes.  Fine.  Why do you
    > appear to be reaching out for some religious basis to support your
    > position?  Or am I reading something between the lines that wasn't
    > really meant to be there?
    
    Maybe it would have something to do with the kind of statements Lou
    Holtz made yesterday, crediting God and the Virgin Mary for some of the
    successes and supposed miracles Notre Dame has enjoyed.  "Well, you're
    going to say that God doesn't care about winning football games, and 
    that may be true, but his mother does..." (I actually give Lou some 
    credit for a little humor on that one.)
    
    Hey, guys, I didn't say it, Lou did, so please direct your comments to
    the issue.  Seemed to me to demonstrate just a touch of that
    righteousness that a couple of ND alums in here assured us doesn't
    exist...
    
    glenn
    

	What actually happened was that a Catholic priest from a different
	school offered an invocation at an event at which Holtz was also
	scheduled to speak.  This priest assured the audience that God didn't
	care who won the game.  Holtz opened his talk by saying that God
	may not care, but his mother did.

	[By the way, I believe this occured last fall, before the Miami-N.Dame
	game, and not recently.  The priest, as I recall, was one of the
	university chaplains at U of Miami.]

    
    If that's the case, then ESPN is guilty of some very shoddy journalism.
    I saw this last night and it looked like a press conference to me, with
    the viewer being led to infer that the comments were in response to a
    question on yet-another Notre Dame "miracle" victory last Saturday
    night.  Holtz seemed sincere, going on to explain that he believes that
    Notre Dame has been blessed many ways, etc.
    
    It wouldn't be like Lou to re-use his material, would it?
    
    glenn
     

    
    Glen,
    
    	I believe the press conference you saw was where Holtz
    	said something to the effect that they won with "the
    	luck of the Irish and the Lady on/in the dome....".
    
    	It gave me a cavity............
    
    Claybone

    Glen,
    
    What's the big deal, the US"s currency says "IN GOD WE TRUST" -
    whether you believe in God or not.   How many times have you heard
    public figures say "Thank God for so and so".   What about the jokes
    of religious figures at ND, like "Touchdown Jesus" and "Fair Catch
    Moses".
    
    Seems like nothing to me.   I can hear religious references every
    day in the news.  And the bottom line, lest we forget, ND is a jesuit
    school - which of course, to some folks, makes them bad.
    
    JD

    
    Now, JD, let's not go blazing off the trail again.  I read a note that,
    paraphrased, said, why are you guys (Dan) making religion an issue,
    what's your problem, etc., etc.  Then to my delight I turn on the tube
    a few hours later and Lou Holtz is summoning the heavens, so to speak.
    
    My note was not passing judgement on ND's religious background and in
    no way is a reflection of my own.  I was giving information that was
    directly relevant to an issue that was raised.
    
    glenn
     

>    It wouldn't be like Lou to re-use his material, would it?
    
     He may very well have been; probably his writers don't update his
     jokes very often.

     The source of the story I read was the Reader's Digest from one of the
     last two months.  I'm quite certain the story was told regarding last
     year's UM-Notre Dame game.

    >Dan, what's your problem?  Why did you make such a foolish statement
    >as "Kick some heathen ass for me"?  What is that supposed to mean?
    >What is your definition of "heathen" in this context?
    >
    
    Well Lee, you want an explanation.  Did you hear Lou Holtz on TV last
    night?  He's actually predicting ND to beat Michigan State this
    weekend, perhaps the first time he ever thought that ND would win a
    game.  You know why Lou was willing to bravely go out on this limb??? 
    Because, he said, this team is "blessed".  God wants them to win.  So
    Lou felt unexpected confidence.  Boy is that a relief for me.
    
    I wanted to ask God if ND would beat the spread, and perhaps I'd put a
    double sawbuck on them, but God said, "Dan, you know the rules, only
    one football prediction a week, and Lou got here first."  Damn...
    
    Dan

    re: John H.
    
    Regarding Stonebreaker breaking Indiana law and not Massachusetts law
    by driving with a suspended (OUI) license.  This country has seen a
    dramatic rise in the awareness and penalties concerning drinking and
    driving, which shouldn't surprise you.  It also shouldn't surprise you
    that every state in the country has beefed up the penalties of breaking
    these laws.  I seriously doubt that Indiana has a substantially more
    lenient set of penalties than does Massachusetts, despite your
    reference to "the People's Republic...".  
    
    Furthermore, I seriously doubt that Indiana's penalty says anything
    about "let his football coach handle it quietly".
    
    I don't mean to condemn Stonebreaker; all I know about him is that he's
    a fine football player, and has broken a few laws which has resulted in
    serious injury to himself and a female passanger, and has seemed escape
    from the usual penalties or publicity which would occur at a myriad of
    other schools.
    
    He also refutes the claims of "all angels" which is so frequently and
    blindly done by Notre Dame athletic supporters.  That is why he was
    chosen.
    
    Dan

    Guys,
    
       I'm away at training so this will be quick. You're reading too
    much into what holtz said., He just meant that he considered ND
    to be lucky Give me a break. As far as responding to the anti's
    It's the same old story. They all sound like a broken record. Let's
    see what happens to ND this weekend aqgainst the Spartans.
    
    Still a proud ND alum
    
    ML
    
    
    

    Dan, I'll concede your points about OUI if you'll concede that there's
    nothing inherently wrong with quiet discipline as long as the
    discipline is imposed.  You don't have to agree with me on the
    following, but I believe that ND does handle its athletic disciplinary
    problems better than most schools do - not perfectly, but better than most.
    
    I also believe that further argument about whether the penalty was good
    or not cannot be settled until we know for sure what the Indiana laws
    were at the time, what the ND laws were at the time and so forth.
    
    A small nit - ND isn't Jesuit, though that is a common misconception. 
    It's run by the Fathers of the Holy Cross.  Holy Cross College is
    however, Jesuit.
    
    John

    >Dan, I'll concede your points about OUI if you'll concede that there's
    >nothing inherently wrong with quiet discipline as long as the
    >discipline is imposed.  
    
    There is nothing inherently wrong with quiet discipline.  I just felt
    it was necessary to juxtapose the Stonebreaker incidents with those of
    those nasty Miami players who dance in the endzone after scoring a
    touchdown., and the corresponding public reaction over each.  Had
    Stonebreaker playedfor Miami instead of God's team, heaven help him.

    Now that I understand, hostilities are over.  I agree that what
    Stonebreaker did was worse than disco dancing in the end zone, finger
    pointing and taunting.  Requiring that the discipline of an athlete be
    so public is something that really gets to me.
    
    Time to tell the soldiers to stand down.
    
    John

Don't be so easy on the guy John.

dan here is insisting that he knows exactly what went on with the Stonebreaker
situation. This, he knows, in spite of the fact that he doesn't know what the
DUI laws are in Indiana, He doesn't know why Stonebreaker was arrested for the
first offense, He doesn't know if Stonebreaker could have played the season
he was suspended for and he doesn't know the exact punishment that stonebreaker
received for his second offense.

Yet he insists that it was all a coverup even though he knows none of the facts.

Do your research before you come in with both guns blazing danny-boy.


Notre Dame isn't a university with an angels halo around it IMHO but neither
is it the scourge of universities worldwide that you make it out to be.

Face it dan, You have a personal vendetta against Notre Dame and ,much like
T and UNC, you'll dredge up any bad information you have on it and publisize
it here to try and bring it down.


Metz

   In case everyone's forgotten, Notre Dame means Our Lady, which in the
   Christian Mythos refers to the Mother of God. So.... a joke... get it?
   His Mother does.

   Stonebreaker broke the law. Was punished.. license suspended..
   everything as it should be. When he was moving a car on campus, that
   was a campus matter. No different than if you had a suspended license,
   and were caught moving your car around in your back yard.  NOT illegal.
   BUT.. the school suspended him anyway. It was against THEIR rules. Had
   nothing to do with Indianna or The Peoples Republic of Taxachsetts. He
   had injured himself months before, and was okay to play part of the
   season. ND said no. Is what he did worse than Miami snot nosed idiots
   acting like sub humans? Get Real. They have nothing to do with one
   another. I was speaking strictly of on-field antics. ND would not allow
   that crap. Miami does. Personal speculation leads me to believe that
   had the Stonebreaker incident happened at Miami, he would have played
   last year... in fact, nobody would have found out he had even been
   moving the stupid car.

   Your hate for Notre Dame has addled your wits, big guy ;'D
   Better hook up with the Slasher for another Synchronized Swimming and
   Charity In Thought And Action Seminar.

   Mike JN

>dan here is insisting that he knows exactly what went on with the Stonebreaker
>situation.
    
    No he isn't.  Why not write a note about ND in the ND note, instead of
    a note about me?
    
>This, he knows, in spite of the fact that he doesn't know what the
>DUI laws are in Indiana, 
    
    There is not a requirement of knowing the exact laws to appreciate what
    happened.
    
>He doesn't know why Stonebreaker was arrested for the
>first offense, He doesn't know if Stonebreaker could have played the season
>he was suspended for and he doesn't know the exact punishment that stonebreaker
>received for his second offense.
    
    Metz, you're being ignorant and belligerent.  You don't have any idea
    what I know and what I don't know.  And it's apparent you don't have
    much further idea as to what Stonebreaker did and how he got punished. 
    Which is precisely the point. 
    
>Notre Dame isn't a university with an angels halo around it
    
    But no one would ever know that listening to Notre Dame fans tell it.
    
    BTW, that Cleveland Browns player who was tossed out of the Jets game
    for kicking another player (Chris Dressler)...guess where he went to
    school?
       
    Dan

   >ND would not allow
   >that crap. 
    
    You're wrong.  ND *has* allowed "that crap".  See the Miami game.  See
    the USC game, See the Michigan game.
    
   >Your hate for Notre Dame has addled your wits, big guy ;'D
    
    My response to this is I will never be "See no Evil" as so many are
    about Notre Dame.
    
    Dan

>   In case everyone's forgotten, Notre Dame means Our Lady, which in the
>   Christian Mythos refers to the Mother of God. So.... a joke... get it?
>   His Mother does.

    I'm still not sure everyone has understood this, yet.

>   Stonebreaker broke the law. Was punished.. license suspended..
>   everything as it should be. When he was moving a car on campus, that
>   was a campus matter. No different than if you had a suspended license,
>   and were caught moving your car around in your back yard.  NOT illegal.
>   BUT.. the school suspended him anyway. It was against THEIR rules. Had
>   nothing to do with Indianna or The Peoples Republic of Taxachsetts.

    I think this is the key point that Dan is missing.  I agree that it
    WAS NOT ILLEGAL.  It certainly is legal to drive a vehicle on private
    property, with the owner's permission, without a driver's license (in
    every state I have lived in, anyway).  If he was driving on a public
    roadway, it would have been illegal, but from the reports I have heard,
    it was not.  Therefore, Notre Dame had a right to discipline him any
    way they chose to do so.  Did they make a wise choice ?  I think so,
    and I don't particularly care for Notre Dame one way or the other
    (sometimes I root for them, sometimes against, depending on their
    opponent.)

    
   > Is what he did worse than Miami snot nosed idiots
   > acting like sub humans? Get Real. They have nothing to do with one
   > another. I was speaking strictly of on-field antics. ND would not allow
   > that crap. Miami does. 
    
    Be serious.  Notre Dame of 1988-89 was a prime practitioner of on-field
    antics.  The Fiesta Bowl game safely in hand, Notre Dame taunts and
    cheapshots beaten West Virginia opponents, raising officials' ire and
    drawing several unsportsmanlike penalties.  Notre Dame players block
    USC locker-room tunnel before game, causing major brawl.  Ugliness from
    players and fans on both sides in the wars against Miami.  Notre Dame 
    most definitely adopted a bad-boy style under Holtz, while Lou has idly
    stood on the sidelines and vowed that "it will never happen again".  
    Was anyone ever benched or disciplined?  
    
    I consider both Miami and Notre Dame (under Lou Holtz, that is) to
    *both* be exceptions, not the rule, when it comes to demonstrating 
    sportsmanship.
    
    glenn
     

    
>>   In case everyone's forgotten, Notre Dame means Our Lady, which in the
>>   Christian Mythos refers to the Mother of God. So.... a joke... get it?
>>   His Mother does.

>    I'm still not sure everyone has understood this, yet.
    
    Huh?  Go back to my original note, and read where I state that "I give
    Lou credit for a little humor here".  Read a few responses later on
    where I ask if Lou re-uses his joke material so frequently.  Yes, I get 
    it.  It's very funny.
    
    In the clips I saw, I felt that Holtz was sincere in expressing his 
    belief from where his team's successes have come.  After the joke,
    he was serious and serene when discussing how he feels his teams are
    blessed.  I have no real problem with this, and mentioned it only to 
    demonstrate that with Holtz, the attitude is real.  Did anyone else 
    actually see the interview?   
    
    glenn
    
                                                                      

    >Did anyone else actually see the interview?                         
    
    I did.  But remember Glenn, I'm an "anti-" and definitely not to be
    trusted.
    
    Dan

*	Let start in chronological order here dan....

> BTW, Stonebreaker was hurt in his drunken car accident.  That's why he
>    sat out the season.  As always, ND disciplines "quietly"  (see Steroid
>    Abuse).
>
>    Dan
   
*	Here is where it all started dan...

>================================================================================
>Note 59.315                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  315 of 350
>FSHQA2::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 292-2170"          19 lines  18-SEP-1990 12:39
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   In the Stonebreaker incident, he was forbidden from driving on campus
>    because of a drunk driving incident.  Most other schools would have
>    done nothing.  He was suspended because he was helping a fellow student
>    move, the car was parked illegally and he moved the car.  He got caught
>    and was suspended.  I don't think this makes him a bad citizen and I
>    credit Notre Dame for nailing him over what seemed to be a relatively
>    minor incident.


*Here is the first introduction as to the true facts of what really happened.

>================================================================================
>Note 59.318                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  318 of 350
>HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Nuke the New Kids!!"              15 lines  18-SEP-1990 13:23
>                        -< I'll see if I can find this >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    >And what, may I ask, is wrong with imposing quiet discipline? 
>    
>    Because, so often in college athletics, it's usually a euphemism for
>    doing nothing.
>    
>    >He was suspended because he was helping a fellow student
>    >move, the car was parked illegally and he moved the car.  He got caught
>    >and was suspended.
>    
>    Perhaps I'm remembering a different incident, but what you say doesn't
>    sound accurate at all.  I thought Stonebreaker was drunk driving, got
>    in an accident, was fairly seriously injured and there was another
>    injured party (a date) as well.
>    

* here is where you, dan start getting up on your soapbox and condemning Notre
*Dame for a coverup even though you admit you don't know any of the facts about
*the situation.

>================================================================================
>Note 59.321                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  321 of 350
>CNTROL::CHILDS "Lord she had a way to fool me"       30 lines  19-SEP-1990 06:34
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Stonebreaker incident in chronological order:
>
> 1. Injured and arrested for drunken driving. Injury forces him to miss
>    entire season. I believe he broke his leg.
>
> 2. Stonebreaker's right to drive on campus removed as part of his punishment
>    by ND. Law gave him community service and alcohol education classes. Not 
>    sure but I think his BAC was 0.15.
>
> 3. Stonebreaker caught moving illegally parked car while helping a friend move
>    gets suspended by ND.
>

* Yet another person intrudes with a few facts about the situation..

>================================================================================
>Note 59.322                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  322 of 350
>WAV12::MCNEIL                                        16 lines  19-SEP-1990 06:39
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>    re: Stonebreaker
>    
>    I was going to school at ND at the time of the Stonebreaker incident
>    and John is 100% correct.  Stoney got in a car accident(DWI) and broke
>    his hip and injured a young lady as well.  He thus had his driving
>    privileges revoked and proceeded to violate that as well and was
>    suspended.  He then reapplied to school the next semester and was
>    granted admission and football eligibility.

* some more facts from somebody that was a lot closer to the situation than you
* or I 

>================================================================================
>Note 59.323                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  323 of 350
>FSHQA1::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 292-2170"          15 lines  19-SEP-1990 06:42
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-    Finally, Stonebreaker was healthy enough to play during the year he was
>    suspended so they did lose him and it did hurt the team.  He was
>    prevented from driving on campus, he broke a rule, he was punished. 
>    Like I said, I'm not a Notre Dame fan, but to punish someone of his
>    prominence for breaking of a relatively minor rule when it would have
>    been very easy to sweep it under the rug is something to be commended.

* Looks like Stonebreaker was healthy enough to play so the suspension was more
than just some lip service.

>================================================================================
>Note 59.326                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  326 of 350
>MFGMEM::MIOLA "Phantom"                               7 lines  19-SEP-1990 06:55
>                   -< Injuries would not have held him out >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>    
>    He could have played if not for the suspension.
>    
>    
>    
>    Lou

* looks like confirmation by another source here

>================================================================================
>Note 59.329                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  329 of 350
>HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Nuke the New Kids!!"              38 lines  19-SEP-1990 13:49
>           -< But we'll never know, because it was all done quietly >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    >I still don't see what is so bad about disciplining an athlete and not
>    >having it broadcast in the news.  These guys have a right to privacy.
>    
>    Do you see anything wrong with sweeping problems under the rug, and
>    then covering up to the docile press with a pledge of "quiet
>    discipline"?  That is the case more than not.
>    
>    >Finally, Stonebreaker was healthy enough to play during the year he was
>    >suspended so they did lose him and it did hurt the team.  
>    
>    I don't think so.  when he was in his original accident, he broke his
>    leg and they were talking about his career.  He was still on crutches
>    when the next season started, last September.  He was injured, he
>    missed the season.  No discipline involved.  That was the original
>    offense by the way, which people defending ND seem barely able to
>    acknowledge, as if his problems started with parking a friends car.
>    
>    >He was
>    >prevented from driving on campus, he broke a rule, he was punished. 
>    >Like I said, I'm not a Notre Dame fan, but to punish someone of his
>    >prominence for breaking of a relatively minor rule when it would have
>    >been very easy to sweep it under the rug is something to be commended.
>    
>    Pause before you commend the holy angels.  If that were the real world,
>    and not Notre Dame, let's say it happened in Mass. where I'm familiar
>    with the law.  Stonebreaker, with his license suspended because of OUI
>    (leave out the bodily harm to the second party...Holtz probably gave a
>    South Bend Sheriff sideline passes or something...or maybe paid him
>    off with the Minnesota slush fund interest.  Who knows?) is caught
>    driving again.  Say hello to 30 days behind bars.  Say hello to a year
>    without a license.   What's that?  Lou Holtz is on the phone?  Well
>    just say hello to quiet discipline then, Notre Dame style.  And have a
>    good game on Saturday, Steve.  Kick some heathen ass for me.
>    
>    And Miami players get persecuted for dancing after they score a
>    touchdown...


* now dan jumps totally on his soapbox and tries to convince everybody that the
*kid should be thrown in jail because he is an evil menace to society and that
*if he wasn't a Notre Dame student than he would be serving 5-10 in the pen for
*a similar offense...
* Your assumptions were also based on a total ignorance of the Law in Indiana
*and the fact that the second offense occurred on private property.


*BTW - this is the first mention of anybody persecuting Miami players and it was
*introduced by you.
 

>================================================================================
>Note 59.348                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  348 of 350
>DECWET::METZGER "Head Northwest young man...."       23 lines  20-SEP-1990 12:41
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>dan here is insisting that he knows exactly what went on with the Stonebreaker
>situation. This, he knows, in spite of the fact that he doesn't know what the
>DUI laws are in Indiana, He doesn't know why Stonebreaker was arrested for the
>first offense, He doesn't know if Stonebreaker could have played the season
>he was suspended for and he doesn't know the exact punishment that Stonebreaker
>received for his second offense.
>
>Yet he insists that it was all a coverup even though he knows none of the facts.
>
>

* this is where I get sick of you making grand accusations based on no
*supporting evidence

>================================================================================
>Note 59.350                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  350 of 350
>HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Nuke the New Kids!!"              31 lines  20-SEP-1990 13:06
>                -< I'm the fly in your self-righteous ointment >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>dan here is insisting that he knows exactly what went on with the Stonebreaker
>>situation.
>    
>    No he isn't.  Why not write a note about ND in the ND note, instead of
>    a note about me?
>    
>>This, he knows, in spite of the fact that he doesn't know what the
>>DUI laws are in Indiana, 
>    
>    There is not a requirement of knowing the exact laws to appreciate what
>    happened.
>    
>>He doesn't know why Stonebreaker was arrested for the
>>first offense, He doesn't know if Stonebreaker could have played the season
>>he was suspended for and he doesn't know the exact punishment that Stonebreaker
>>received for his second offense.
>    
>    Metz, you're being ignorant and belligerent.  You don't have any idea
>    what I know and what I don't know.  And it's apparent you don't have
>    much further idea as to what Stonebreaker did and how he got punished. 
>    Which is precisely the point. 
>    
>>Notre Dame isn't a university with an angels halo around it
>    
>    But no one would ever know that listening to Notre Dame fans tell it.
>    
>    BTW, that Cleveland Browns player who was tossed out of the Jets game
>    for kicking another player (Chris Dressler)...guess where he went to
>    school?
>       
>    


* so you accuse me of being ignorant because I don't agree with you. You've put
forth all that you do know in the previous replies. In fact I do know what you
do and don't know. 

I bothered to read the previous replies so I do know what happened to
Stonebreaker and how he got punished. You'd rather read INTO them instead of
reading them. You've already formed your opinions before getting the facts.

BTW- I could care less who kicked who in a Cleveland browns game. It has
nothing to do with the fact that you have a biased hatred toward Notre Dame and
you'll do anything to make them look bad even if there is no evidence
supporting you. I agree with your opinions on a lot of things but in this case
you're a pure mudslinger. You're running a campaign as bad as George Bush.

You're the one being belligerent in this case.....


Metz

Glenn,
    
    I've watched college ball for years, and I've never seen a team
    taunt and disco dance like Miami did last year - and not just against
    Notre Dame either - they did it to all the cupcakes on the schedule
    also.   I also watched the WVU, and there was nothing of the magnitude
    of Miami's taunting.  Some celebrating yes.  I guess you're like
    Dan and can't tell the difference between spontaneous celebrating
    and taunting.  I was a Hurricane fan until the 'camoflague' routine
    they pulled vs. Penn State - the program's class level went downhill
    from there.
    
    I'm unhappy with Holtz, and I wish he's leave ND and go to the Jets
    again, just to piss off Dan.  I agree that the tunnel incidents
    were ugly and horrible, and I condemn ND for it.  And therefore
    lies the difference between you and Dan and myself.  I can admit
    problems at Notre Dame - neither one of you can recognize any good
    at the school.   Fine - just don't try to pass either of your
    judgements off as cement facts.
    
    Dan,
    
    If Notre Dame was an Islamic school, or a Jewish school, but enjoyed
    the same level of 'publicity' - would you hate them as much?  Hey
    Dan, guess what - Notre Dame isn't perfect - I and most of the other
    pro-NDer's have said that time and time again.  You, Glenn and the
    rest of your cabal are the one's acting like ND is perfect.  Why
    don't you wipe the crap from your eyes for once, get off the "protector
    of the self-righteous' outhouse, er podium, you've built for yourself,
    and simply admit that like most of the noters in here, you aren't
    objective.  You carry grudges, and you NEVER look at things from
    both sides.  You never admit the possibility of error.
    
    JD

    So, after all was said and done, Metz you've uncovered some startling
    testimony!
    
    *   At first there was a discussion about Stonebreaker's problems that
    	sprung up because "things like that neverhappen at ND" (Miami
    	players dancing) that began without me.
    
    *	Stonebreaker's problems were miscorrectly stated as parking a
    	friend's car while he didn't have a license.
    
    *	Then, and only then, I chimed in that I didn't know about that 
    	(which has turned out to be the second, less serious, incident)
    	incident.  But I did remember the first incident, and here's what
    	I remember.
     
    *	My remembrance of the situation was substantially corroborated by 
    	our Notre Dame alum, even though he gave credit to John.
    
    *	Yes, I speculated what happened behind the scenes as to why all
    	this Stonebreaker mess has been shoved under the rug to the
    	extent that everyone was left guessing what happened to him.
    
    	I speculated that Sleazy Quitter Lou Holtz played a role, for which
    	I do not apologize.
    
    *	And I told everyone what would have happened to Stonebreaker if
    	his second offense had been committed in Massachusetts, because I
    	know the law there.  I would say it's up to you to quote the laws
    	of other states showing that they are substantially more lenient
    	with their laws concerning driving with a suspended licence before
    	you begin critisizing me.  I *strongly doubt* that they are.
    
    If you've got a problem with the *whole* story being told as opposed to
    the filtered down and covered up Notre Dame version, than you've got a
    problem with my participation in this notesfile.
    
    And, Metz, if you still don't understand why this was brought up, read
    about the sub-humans who have the nerve to celebrate after a touchdown
    by dancing in the endzone, that is, at schools other than Notre Dame. 
    Then compare the public outcry over that to this.
    
    Dan

>  *	Yes, I speculated what happened behind the scenes as to why all
>    	this Stonebreaker mess has been shoved under the rug to the
>    	extent that everyone was left guessing what happened to him.
>    
the only one guessing at things was you. Other people stated exactly what 
happened to Stonebreaker. You were the one who manufactured a big cover up.
You were the one who insisted that it had all been swept under the rug.


>    	I speculated that Sleazy Quitter Lou Holtz played a role, for which
>    	I do not apologize.

Here lies the crux of the matter. You are free to speculate without a shred
of proof yet you continue to jump at anyone else in the notesfile for doing the
same.
>    
>    *	And I told everyone what would have happened to Stonebreaker if
>    	his second offense had been committed in Massachusetts, because I
>    	know the law there.  I would say it's up to you to quote the laws
>    	of other states showing that they are substantially more lenient
>    	with their laws concerning driving with a suspended licence before
>    	you begin critisizing me.  I *strongly doubt* that they are.
    

If stonebreaker had been caught in Massachusettes driving without a license on
PRIVATE property the state would have had nothing to do with the case. Much the
same way the state had nothing to do with the case in Indiana. How many times
do people have to repeat this to you before this sinks in. The second offense
did not occur on public roads. It occured on private property. If I get my 
license suspended in Mass and choose to drive around my front yard I am free
to do so. I don't have to quote any laws. This is a fact...

DO    YOU     UNDERSTAND    THIS   ?

This is the whole story not some half baked fabricated story that you are
conjuring out of thin air.

Metz

    >I guess you're like
    >Dan and can't tell the difference between spontaneous celebrating
    >and taunting.  
    
    But JD, I can tell the difference.  The biggest difference is in the
    eye of the beholder.
    
    >I'm unhappy with Holtz, and I wish he's leave ND and go to the Jets
    >again, just to piss off Dan.  
    
    Dirty pool, JD.  From what I hear, his next move is the Minnesota
    Vikings where he can go sleaze them up.  Can't you just wait till he
    calls Chris Doleman or Keith Millard a "Quitter".
    
    >If Notre Dame was an Islamic school, or a Jewish school, but enjoyed
    >the same level of 'publicity' - would you hate them as much?  
    
    It's hard to imagine such a thing in this country.  If I lived in
    Israel, and a similar team pulled the variety of similar stunts that ND
    has pulled to get publicity/ref's calls/Heisman votes/#1 votes/etc.
    yeah, I'd make a point of publicizing their wrong doing, what you call
    'hate'.  A more apt comparison for this country is if sometime tried to
    capitalize on their whiteness, or thier Christianity, or their
    "male-ness".  And you can find me all over things like that in other
    places beyond the scope of college football.
    
    >...you aren't
    >objective.  You carry grudges, and you NEVER look at things from
    >both sides.  You never admit the possibility of error. 
    
    I'm not always objective.  I can carry a grudge.  I always try to look
    at things from both sides.  I almost always allow for the possibility
    of error.  But best of all, I *never* waste my time writing diatribes
    about other noters because they aren't blindly loyal to the same team I
    am.
    
    Dan
    

    
    > I also watched the WVU, and there was nothing of the magnitude
    > of Miami's taunting.  Some celebrating yes.  I guess you're like
    > Dan and can't tell the difference between spontaneous celebrating
    > and taunting.
    
    I didn't have to tell the difference, JD.  The officials did.  Those 
    yellow things were flying through the air and the ball was being marched 
    in the direction opposite Notre Dame.  This happened several times in 
    the last five minutes of the game.  The announcers were telling me how 
    ugly it was getting out there.  Holtz eventually had to run out onto the 
    field, get in the defensive huddle, and tell his players to cool it.  
    This was not "spontaneous celebrating".  Obviously you were watching a 
    different game, and have somehow interpreted my accurate description of 
    some ugly incidents surrounding Lou Holtz and ND (in response to a 
    claim that "ND would never allow that crap"-- and why shouldn't a false 
    claim like that be disputed) as a deep-seated hatred of Notre Dame that 
    simply isn't there.  Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
    
    > And therefore
    > lies the difference between you and Dan and myself.  I can admit
    > problems at Notre Dame - neither one of you can recognize any good
    > at the school.   Fine - just don't try to pass either of your
    > judgements off as cement facts.                   
    
    > You, Glenn and the
    > rest of your cabal are the one's acting like ND is perfect.
    
    Can you substantiate any of these accusations, JD?  I'd appreciate some
    coherent explanation if you're going to throw my name around.  Last I 
    checked, this was the SPORTS conference.  I could praise Notre Dame 
    academics and accomplishments, etc., but that would be irrelevant. 
    We're talking football, and Lou Holtz.  I've given facts, not opinion,
    on the ND-Miami scheduling controversy, Lou Holtz' press conferences,
    and ND's on-field behavior.  I don't believe that I've passed off
    "judgements" as fact anywhere.
    
    Just for your information, and again irrelevant to the discussions but
    apparently very relevant to you, I have rooted for Notre Dame every 
    single time they have played Miami (at least since Miami's been good)
    and off-and-on when they've been the underdog in other games.  I have
    nothing inherently against the school or their athletic programs.  I
    *do* have a problem with Lou Holtz.  But is there a requirement to say
    one good thing for every bad thing mentioned about a school in a
    legitimate sports discussion?  If that's the case, then Miami's sure got
    some coming in here.  It's a pretty decent school, too, in spite of the
    reputation...
    
    glenn
       
           

    Hey Metz, why do you assume what people who root for Notre Dame say
    about an incident is the absolute truth?  I don't.
    
    The reason I don't is because I never saw any evidence of it in the
    papers or magazines I read.
    
    *I don't assume that Stonebreaker was suspended for the season.
    
    * I don't assume that he could have played with the broken leg as
      a result of his accident.
    
    * I don't assume that Stonebreaker's second offense came on-campus.
    
    * I don't assume that it is the same thing driving without a license on
      campus full of college students as it is driving in your front yard,
      just because neither is a public road!
    
    So, you have made certain key assumptions which has led to your current
    state of confusion on these issues.  When and if the events are
    publicized, I and you can readjust our key assumptions.  But, of
    course, this is part of the problem.  Problems at ND don't receive much
    publicity.
    
    Dan

>   Hey Metz, why do you assume what people who root for Notre Dame say
>    about an incident is the absolute truth?  I don't.

I never heard John Hendry say that he rooted for ND. In fact I heard him say
that he didn't car about them either way. I've never known John to lie. Can
you give me a reason why I should doubt his recollection of the Stonebreaker
events ? Can you give me a reason why I should believe you accounts of the
event over somebody that was on campus at the time ? 
>    
>    The reason I don't is because I never saw any evidence of it in the
>    papers or magazines I read.
>    
>    *I don't assume that Stonebreaker was suspended for the season.

Are you saying that he wasn't suspended for the season? I've never heard
anybody say that he was anything but suspended for the season

>    
>    * I don't assume that he could have played with the broken leg as
>      a result of his accident.

But you are assuming that he couldn't have played that season? Based on one
of the early games in the season where you saw him standing on the sideline? 
>
>    * I don't assume that Stonebreaker's second offense came on-campus.

Are you telling me that it wasn't on campus? I've never heard that. DO you have
any proof? You're calling quite a few people liars firsthand by doubting
what they've said.
>    
>    * I don't assume that it is the same thing driving without a license on
>      campus full of college students as it is driving in your front yard,
>      just because neither is a public road!

try this out dan. Go to the BC campus. Crash into somebodies car. Call the cops.
See what they say. I'll tell you what they'll say. They'll say that they have
no jurisdiction on private property and you should take the matter up with
the campus police. I know this for a fact. 
>    
>    So, you have made certain key assumptions which has led to your current
>    state of confusion on these issues.  When and if the events are
>    publicized, I and you can readjust our key assumptions.  But, of
>    course, this is part of the problem.  Problems at ND don't receive much
>    publicity.


You are the one making assumptions dan. You are assuming that everything that
people have said in here is a lie. That's  quite an assumption. I know several
facts in the matter and have quite a few people that remember the incident
better than you backing me up with replies to this note. 

While you might call it a big cover up you should prepare to back up the
accusations you've made with proof. Bring in some evidence that Stonebreaker
was driving around town drunk as a skunk, bring in some proof that says he
wasn't able to walk until mid december and the suspension was all hot air or
bring in some proof that Holtz slipped some cop a $20 to keep the noise down
and I'll respect what you have to say on the matter.

Until then I'll chalk this whole "situation" you've uncovered as a personnal
vendetta vs. Notre Dame and file it with the great Bo Jackson assassination
plot uncovered by HOOT and Monty a few years ago.

Metz
     

    Dan,
    
    No one has condemned Miami for celebrating touchdowns in the end
    zone.  They've condemned them for celebrating every single play
    as if they just broke a world record or something - for taunting
    after every single play - for dancing after every single play.
    
    I'm all for shows of emotion when it is warranted.  
    
    JD
    
    Glenn,
    
    Yep, I remember ND getting penalized against WVu and Holtz reeming
    them out - and there is the difference - Jimmy Johnson and the other
    recent Slime head coaches just stand there and let it happen, and
    the refs don't seem fit to penalize them.   
    
    I'm no fan of Lou Holtz at all - no fan at all.  I wish he'd leave
    ND pronto.
    
    JD

    Dan, I still don't see your definition of "heathen" as you wrote
    it.
    
    No, I didn't see Holtz on TV.  So he predicted a win, and called
    his team blessed, according to you.  I'm not questioning your comment
    on what he said.  I'm just asking why you used the word "heathen",
    and what you meant to infer by it's use?
    
    Lee    

    I can't believe all the heated discussion over two things that happened
    to one player over a year ago, and I've never seen such hatred for
    a coach, that some people have in here for Lou Holtz, it's unbelievable
    It's like you know him personally and he has done something to you
    or your family. The guy is definately no saint but there are coaches
    out there that are a lot worse. About the Stonebreaker incident,
    on one of the pre-season specials, I believe CBS, they did a special
    on Stonebreaker and Brooks, and according to CBS, Stonebreaker was
    gonna play last year, that he was over the injury, not 100%, but
    able to play, then the suspension, and I remember seeing an interview
    with Stonebreaker that he thought he was over the hurdle, coming 
    back from the injury and then the suspension. BUT all that happened
    in 1989, this is 1990, It shouldn't matter if he could play, do you
    keep tabs on suspensions and injurys for all the other top 20
    teams and wonder if the coach is covering it up. Does anybody
    even care about the ND, Michigan ST. game this weekend, Todd
    Lyght probably won't play because of hamstring pull.
    If you guys hate Lou Holtz so much quit talking about him, if I
    hate someone, the last thing I do is talk about them everyday.
    
                                                           Dan C 

    >Dan, I still don't see your definition of "heathen" as you wrote
    >it.
    
    My definition of heathen is the same as the dictionary's.  Of course,
    in my note, I was using another's voice, wasn't I?
    
    >I'm just asking why you used the word "heathen",
    >and what you meant to infer by it's use?
    
    I'm saying that if one team is "God's team" (a notion at ND that seems
    to go much further than Lou Holtz, see Touchdown Jesus for reference)
    what does that make their opponents?  Got it?
    
    Dan

    >It shouldn't matter if he could play, do you
    >keep tabs on suspensions and injurys for all the other top 20
    >teams and wonder if the coach is covering it up.
    
    No, I don't.  But the point was, and this is what Metz has willfully
    been too dense to understand, that while so many college football
    fans react to a Miami dance in the endzone after a TD as if the
    offending dancers should be strung up by the balls for their
    celebrating/taunting/whatever-you-want-to-label-it, things are less
    than perfect on occasion at Notre Dame, which actively portrays itself
    (with the able assitance of fans and media) as the antithesis of Miami.  
    Events of the last few years tell a much different story, but they
    almost are never allowed to see the light of day.
    
    One last thing:  Metz, when I want to call someone a "liar", I'll do
    so.  I would be grateful in the future if you didn't twist my words and
    do so for me.  And until there is a law that everyone has to make all
    the same assumptions about a barely covered piece of news, I'll make
    mine freely.  Thanks.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    Still, no one was complaining about Miami celebrating a touchdown.
    That's seems to have alluded your self-righteous ego.
    
    Anyone who takes "touchdown Jesus" and "Fair catch Moses" as anything
    more than playfull descriptions of religious artifacts has some
    deep rooted problems, Dano.  ND is no more God's Team because Of
    Touchdown Jesus, then the US of A is God's country because the money
    says "In God We Trust".  Geez Dan, is St. Paul, MN., God's city,
    cuz it has Saint as it's first name.  
    
    If anything, Danny Boy, to catholics, calling the picture of Jesus
    "touchdown Jesus" at Notre Dame is sacriligeous.   
    
    Dan, we all hate Lou Holtz - that we can agree on.  Of course he
    is an ex-Jet, so I expect him to be overrated and slimy...
    
    jD

>   No, I don't.  But the point was, and this is what Metz has willfully
>    been too dense to understand, that while so many college football
>    fans react to a Miami dance in the endzone after a TD as if the
>    offending dancers should be strung up by the balls for their
>    celebrating/taunting/whatever-you-want-to-label-it, things are less
>    than perfect on occasion at Notre Dame, which actively portrays itself

gee dan I never thought I'd see the day when you were losing a debate so 
badly that you'd resort to personal attacks on another noter.

I've never been against Miami celebrating a TD. But then again I've never
tried to draw a corelation between Miami's on field celebrations with Notre
Dame's disipline of an athelete involved in a non-football altercation.

I can't seem to draw a comparison between the two things...

Feel free to make all the assumptions you want to dan. Just don't try and 
pass them off as the "Truth".

Metz
   

    Norte Dame has squeaked out another win on the road against Mich. ST...
    21-20 Or 23-20...the reporting was losse at the end...
    
    REK

    
    Boy what a blessed victory that was Saturday! I felt cleansed! It had
    sort of a baptismal effect on me. I mean I spilled a beer on my Peter 
    Max print shirt and got that " orange stuff" from cheese curls all 
    over my bellbottoms. 
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    Another great, pseudo-miraculous comeback for Notre Dame.  I'll tell 
    you, I'm actually almost beginning to believe Lou Holtz' crap after
    seeing this one.
    
    One question, though, after seeing the two Michigan teams in action in 
    the past two weeks (maybe T can help with this one):  Is there some
    kind of basic aptitude test that prospective Big-10 coaches must take 
    and fail before being handed the reins to some of the finest talent in 
    the land?  For example, at the end of the first half, Michigan State 
    has ND on their heels.  The official blows a fumble call against Mirer, 
    but ND has to punt and State receives good field position.  State 
    marches to the ND 35 where the drive stalls.  With only 20 seconds left 
    in the half, the decision is interesting one: attempt a field goal with 
    a strong wind at your back or go for it and try to get into better 
    position.  What does Perles do?  He decides to punt and call timeouts 
    on ND's series.  With 20 freakin' seconds left?
    
    I always thought that the idea in football was to move into the
    opponents' territory and try to score.  With a lead, no matter how
    small, these Big-10 guys still coach like they're required to pay 
    homage to Woody Hayes or something.
    
    glenn
       

    Perles can coach D, but otherwise, forget it. State will never come
    close to a National Title with him at the helm ....

    Boy, this fellow schneider sure has a problem with Notre Dame! Its a
    bit scary how people can get so fixed on something. Get a life!
    BTW, I would like to make a couple of corrections:  the school is run by 
    the Holy CrossFathers, (Congregation of Holy Cross) not the fathers of 
    the Holy Cross. And it was Fair Catch Corrigan, not Moses. 
     Saturday's game was not pure luck - Michigan State got
    outplayed and outcoached in the fourth quarter.

    What a dam joke!  A Michigan State linebacker is standing there waiting
    for the interception, and the ball not only bounces off his pads but
    into the hands of an ND receiver.  Pathetic.  Absolutely pathetic. 
    Another key play in this game was the 4th and 8 near the end of the
    third quarter.  
    
    ND doesn't deserve to be ranked #1 right now because they're simply not
    playing like the best team in the nation.  I'll give the Irish credit
    for hanging tough these first 2 games, but when a sure interception is
    not only dropped but bounces into the hands of the receiver, it is
    flat-out luck.  If it's not for 4th-quarter defensive collapses by
    Michigan teams, ND is 0-2 right now.  Come on voters, wise up and give
    those #1 votes to a tough hard-nosed football team like FSU or Auburn,
    not a team who gets outplayed 2 weeks in a row and wins on deflected
    passes.
    
    Joe
       

>gee dan I never thought I'd see the day when you were losing a debate so 
>badly that you'd resort to personal attacks on another noter.
    
    And you still haven't.  You don't want to look at the issues from both
    sides.  Fine.  You can't see a negative correlation between the media
    and average fans view of indescretions at Miama and Notre Dame.  Fine.  
    All your assumptions are the truth and mine aren't.  Fine.
    
    Perhaps "willfully dense" isn't a good term for your head in the sand
    attitude.  Suggest a better one.  I'm open to offers...
    
    Dan

    >Still, no one was complaining about Miami celebrating a touchdown.
    >That's seems to have alluded your self-righteous ego.
    
    I guess it has, JD.  I mean I only read a bunch of notes, many of them
    coming from you, condemning Miami for it's on-field behaviour.  
    
    I guess I was just hallucinating, and I apologize.  None of it really
    happened because you just said so.
    
    Dan

    Defensive collapse by both Michigan teams in the 4th quarter of both
    games?
    Possibly but let's give the Irish some credit for engineering two
    long drives in both games to pull the games out. True,both games
    showed ND to be lucky with deflections,but I believe that they showed
    exceptional mental strength and character to come back in both games.
    
    At this point who can put much credence into who is voted the top
    slots.All teams are looking for degrees of overall consistency and
    at this point possibly FSU,Auburn or others might have demonastrated
    this more than ND. I believe that ND will get much stronger as the
    year progresses 
    The next three games for the Irish are all at home(Purdue,Stanford,
    and Air Force) and should give the Irish the opportunity to hone
    their skills. They need to improve in a lot of areas and these three
    games should give them this opportunity. However if ND looks past any
    of these opponents, an unexpected "L" could rear its ugly head. Small
    prediction:Stanford will prove to be one tough game.
    
    Now's the time for the Irish to regroup,thank their lucky stars,but
    be proud of their gritty performances in the 4th quarters of both games
    
    Let's go pound some Boilermakers!
    
    ML
    
    PS. What happened to USC? (31-0 to Washington. Did they just not show
    up?)
    
    
    

    Dan,
    
    I condemned Miami for taunting, not celebrating touchdowns.  Guess
    you can't tell the difference.
    
    Re Joe C.
    
    Geez, Joe, personal bias wouldn't be clouding your views, would
    it.
    
    Lets see, Notre Dame beat what, the #4 team and the #24 team in
    tehnation.  and yeah, they were close.  Who has Florida St or Auburn
    beaten?   Heck, I'd say vote BYU #1 since they beat a damn good
    Miami team.   
    
    ND isn't playing great right now, but 2-0 is 2-0 - you can't take
    that away.  And stop the whining about luck.  Geez...
    
    JD

    
    Re .380
    
    
    Ya your right .......
    
    They won by luck.....
    
    two games...two wins....
    
    
    pure luck, so we will give them an 0-2 record in the standings because
    we know that's what they deserve to be.
    
    
    
    By the way, I have talked to several people about a game in Boston
    when some clown hit a wind blown blooper over the left field wall
    with a corked bat. We follow your luck theory and we now proclaim the
    winner to be The Red Sox.......
    
    So when does the World Series start for 1979.............:-)
    
    
    
    
    Lou

    >I condemned Miami for taunting, not celebrating touchdowns.  Guess
    >you can't tell the difference.
    
    Yes, I can.  And I have quite reasonably.  The biggest difference is in
    the eye of the beholder.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    Amazingly, YOU still don't get it.  I specifically NEVER mentioned
    touchdown celebrations because they are appropriate for celebrating.
    
    What I, and others, pointed out, was the celebrating after EVERY
    play, as if the player had just won lotto.  And the finger pointing
    and taunting didn't come durint TOUCHDOWN celebrations.
    
    Now Dan, do you FINALLY get it - or doesn't it SINK in YET??
    
    And your last line "The biggest difference is in the eye of the
    beholder"  - perhaps you should look in the mirror, Dano.
    
    
    JD

    I'd like to see a listing of championship teams, regardless of the
    sport, who did not have "good luck" during their reign.  
    
    It would probably be much easier to list talented teams that lost
    because of "bad luck".
    
    The ball sure bounces funny at times, and the winning team is usually
    the one that takes advantage of the "good luck" bounce, while not
    letting the "bad luck" bounce get them down or discouraged.
    
    Being lucky is a part of winning.  How one defines "luck" is, of
    course, open to debate.  Usually, though, most people consider it
    to mean that something unexpected, but beneficial, occurs and has
    a positive influence on the endeavor.  
    
    I can't remember who said it, but there is a quote that goes something
    like "I'd rather be lucky than good."
    
    Lee

    >Now Dan, do you FINALLY get it - or doesn't it SINK in YET??
    
    Amazingly JD, I have *always* gotten it.  The picture is exceptionally
    clear here.  YOU have a problem with Miami and you are in love with
    Notre Dame.  Therefore you comdemn Miami for doing things that Notre
    Dame has done which you just haven't admitted to seeing until
    recently.
    
    That is what I mean by "the eye of the beholder".
    
    If you had the same tolerance for Miami that you have for Notre Dame,
    perhaps you would see all this as well.  Such is not to be and I accept
    that.
    
    Dan

    Dan, Dan, Dan,
    
    Amazingly Dan, I have seen Notre Dame's problems, and I've condemned
    Lou Holtz.  YOU have a problems with Notre Dame and YOU are in love
    with Miami.  Therefore you condemn Notre Dame - though you try to
    veil your HATRED of Notre Dame and especially Lou Holtz (who hurt
    your beloved Jetsies) in a web of 'objectivity'.
    
    And Dano, I've admitted many times that I do have a problem of the
    Miami of recent years, a team that I onced rooted for with vigor,
    but was turned into a bunch of classless dogs by  Jimmy Johnson.
    I fear Lou Holtz doing the same to Notre Dame.   Dan, I admit I'm
    a Notre Dame fan (as well as Penn State), and yep, I don't always
    see things clearly - but I do ADMIT to problems at Notre Dame and
    with the road Lou Holtz takes.  Therefore lies our differences,
    Dano, cause you can never admit to problems with teams or causes
    you like.  
    
    And Dano, you haven't *always* gotten it, as you claim in your previous
    notes - or you wouldn't have consistently gotten the
    taunting/celebrating issue wrong.
    
    JD
    
    

    Dan,  You cain root for anyone you want.  Heck, the fack that you
    root for the Jets proves you have no taste (nice game last night,
    eh///)
    
    Well Dan, you've seen fit to say that I "Love ND" - when in fact
    I root for their football team, but not as much as I root for say,
    the Giants or the Raiders.   
    
    And Dan, though you won't admit it, since it might crack the veneer
    you've painted for yourself - I certainly feel (and other do too,
    by contents in this topic) that you do have a 'problem' with ND
    - stop hiding behind the "injustice in general" bullcrap.  I used
    Schneid logic to come up with you loving Miami - it was rather simple.
    But of course, you have to stick with the 'Mr. Neutral observer,
    protector of the weak, attacker of the self-righteous" schtick you've
    fomented in here.
    
    I admit using 'classless dogs' was a mistake - classless would have
    sufficed.  (Geez, Dano, imagine - I admitted a mistake - imagine
    if you could do the same someday...)
    
    And Dan - you can't be objective - you've admitted your dislike
    for Lou Holtz, your dislike for Notre Dame and all they stand for.
    And yet, you have the gall to say you can be objective.   Dan, be
    honest with yourself - your views are skewed against ND - just as
    mine are with ND. 
    
    And as I've said, I've railed against Sweet Lou, and I've shown
    my distaste for incidents like the tunnel fight.   And I'd do it
    again.  
    
    And remember Dan, the worst thing Miami did was losing to Doug Flutie
    in "The Pass" game.
    
    JD

    Dan,
    
    Sanctimony - a word I think of whenever I read your notes.  If anyone
    was ever santimonious - it's you.
    
    And Dan, I've never compared the Miami taunting with any of the
    'allegations' against ND.  They've been seperate issues in my mind
    - but obviously not in yours.   You've been quick to believe every
    anti-ND story you've heard - and poo-poo any story that might even
    hint at being pro-ND.  
    
    And on your point on 'propoganda' and it as one of the things that
    ND uses to persuade fans and media - tell me Dan-o what school doesn't?
    What company doesn't use propoganda in the way of sales pitches
    and advertising to persuade folks?  To get on ND's case on that
    is pretty petty.
    
    And Dan - you can go at anytime - you never even had to reply in
    here if you didn't wanna... 
    
    Hey, at least you admitted, finally, that you may not be objective.
    A victory....
    
    JD

    >And Dan, I've never compared the Miami taunting with any of the
    >'allegations' against ND. 
    
    Nor have I.  What I've compared (after stripping off the propoganda
    which you have re-inserted) is the reactions to these things by fans
    and media.
    
    When are you going to stop writing notes about me?  If you want to
    defend the school, defend the school.  You keep tossing these personal
    insults my way as if shooting the messenger will hide the message.
    
    Dan

    	Hmm...  Anybody remember the Black Knight in the movie "In Search
    of the Holy Grail"?  I dunno why but reading these last 50 or so
    replies reminded me of him.  8^)
    
    				/Don

    Hey Slasher, what does Dan really think of Notre Dame football?
    
    Hawk

For those who like to keep Notre Dame up on the pedestal, check out
the article in Sports Illustrated this week on nose guard Chris Zorich.
Seems Zorich's academic standing was slightly below what the typical
ND student achieves... 740 combined SAT scores {average at ND is 1200+}
and carrying a remarkable 2.3 G.P.A. in that grueling major known as
"American Studies".  The want-ads are full of employers seeking people
in that field, huh?

    
    
    Here we go agian................
    
    
    Lou

    
    Not bad for a kid that came from a Chicago ghetto and probably would've
    landed his ass in jail or worse by now.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    Oh, oh, I wonder what MR Schneider will say! This note will get longer
    and longer.  Anyway, Zorich is a ghetto kid, who was I guess allowed
    entrance to ND under a hardship clause.  Of course, he is probably the
    exception, but I'm sure the ND haters will make a lot of this. They
    will also tell us that Purdue deserved to win saturday. tk 

    
    Only problem I have with Zorich is that on the field he's been known to 
    get a little carried away, which has been a ND problem under Lou Holtz. 
    The academic thing comes as no shock, nor is it necessarily wrong.
    
    No, Purdue was obviously outclassed, as well we knew beforehand.  Were
    ND fans nervous over an upset from a cross-state rival, or just overly
    defensive?
    
    glenn

    The memory of past Purdue upsets had me nervous, especially since
    Purdue played well against Washighton State. 

    >Oh, oh, I wonder what MR Schneider will say! 
    
    Well, wonder no more.  This is typical of what happens in big time
    sports programs in today's collegic system.  It is somewhat unfortunate
    and somewhat necessary.  What has always galled me is the number of
    people who pretend or really just don't know that it happens at Notre
    Dame as well.
    
    Dan

    Dan, have you mellowed out?  I expected reams of anti-ND stuff.  I
    agree that people pretend it doesn't happen in South Bend, but that is
    wishful thinking.  Big Time college sports taints any program. tk 

    >Dan, have you mellowed out? 
    
    Not at all.  It's just that this time no one is sitting here denying
    the problem, as has happened frequently in the past.
    
    Dan

	All ND Football players are guaranteed Sainthood, nuf said!!!! :-)

    Saw an interesting classified ad in this week's issue of Blue and Gold
    Magazine,the official ND football mag. Ex-Heisman trophy winner Johnny
    Lattmer (ND -early 50's,) was looking for tickets to the Penn State
    game
     
    
    Even occasionally the ND football gods have to scramble for tickets
    just
    like the rest of us. 
    
    Go Irish beat the Cardinal
    
    Prediction: ND 35,Stanford 21
    
    
    ML
    

    What's the problem.  At least Zorich is going to classes.  If he
    was at one of the real factories, or at Miami, USC or another school
    like say, Oklahoma, he'd have a negative GPA and be off committing
    crimes every two seconds.....
    
    I haven't been in here for a few days, but I thought his GPA was
    something like 2.3??  That's well ABOVE the average football players
    (though it is substandard for Notre Dame...)
    
    JD

    
    The luck finally ran out.
    

    
    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Excellent job Stanford!!
    
    Now we will have a true #1 team, assuming Michigan moves into that spot
    now that FSU got whipped by Miami.
    
    Joe

    
    What about BYU? If they are still undefeated they are #1.
    
    Stanford has a good team. They played Colorado tough a few
    weeks back. I had a bad feeling about this one.
    
    
    
    Steve

    re .415
    
    BYU already lost to Oregon.
    
    Bob V.
    

    ND tried to go to the "miracle play" well once too often. Standford
    played tough, especially in the first half, when ND was pushing them up
    and down.  Dennis Green outcoached you-know-who, and to be honest, that
    was the first time in a long time that I've seen that. Hats off to the
    Cardinals, they beat a better team, at their home field.  

    I don't think Michigan should be #1, they los to N.D. Theres still a
    couple of teams that haven't lost yet, Auburn has only a tie, and
    Virgina is 5-0, I know there not the best team in the country but, they
    are undefeated, Auburn should be ranked #1. The way its going now this
    could be the year where you have a few teams deserving to be #1, unlike
    the last few years where it was cleare cut. Well that will only build 
    momentum for the playoff push, after watching ND not being able to
    stop the run and watching Miami rack up the yardage on the ground
    against FSU, ND could be in trouble come the 20th. Oh yes don't let
    me forget about Nebraska being undefeated, and Oklahoma, I can see it
    now Nebraska goes into the Orange Bowl undefeated and they play a great
    team, like say Miami FSU again, and they get killed.
    
                                                         Dan

    
    	Auburn shouldn't be #1.  They barely beat a relatively unknown
    	Louisiana school this weekend.  Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Virginia
    	are unbeaten/untied and *should* be the top 3 (based on records
    	alone).
    
    	Claybone

    
    The close game agains LA Tech was a fluke.  Auburn was coming off a
    very emotional game against Tennessee.  LA Tech scored after blocking
    an Auburn punt.  Auburn had 406 yds to 230 for LA tech.  Stan White was
    24-37-0 for 272 yds.  I know that the score is all that counts(ask
    Colorado) but Auburn won on the scoreboard as well...
    

    >...At least Zorich is going to classes.  If he
    >was at one of the real factories, or at Miami, USC or another school
    >like say, Oklahoma, he'd have a negative GPA and be off committing
    >crimes every two seconds.....
    
    Thank goodness Notre Dame came into his life.  They would have probably
    shown the same interest in him even if he wasn't an exceptionally
    talented football player.
    
    >...I thought his GPA was
    >something like 2.3??  That's well ABOVE the average football players
    
    He is a prince; a man of letters; a white knight.  Obviously, no one
    who has graced the meadows of South Bend can ever do wrong.
    
    Dan

    As I always try to, I'd like to call attention to the manipulation
    before it happens.  I think the college football polls come out
    tomorrow.  Watch them carefully.
    
    We saw USC beat two good teams, Penn St. and Syracuse, and then lose to
    a very good Washington team.  They sunk in the polls to #19.
    
    We saw Miami, last year's champs, lose to BYU who is considered a very
    good team (who unfortunately will remain untested until Jan 1).  They
    dropped to #13 in the polls.
    
    Now we see that Notre Dame "magic" at work.  They squeaked by Michigan
    and Michigan State, beat a couple of patsies, and then anticipated
    beating another patsy, unranked Stanford, the same Stanford which
    hasn't had a winning season in 10 years.
    
    To what depths will Notre Dame drop?  The smart money says no lower
    than #6, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
    
    Dan

    
>    Now we see that Notre Dame "magic" at work.  They squeaked by Michigan
>    and Michigan State, beat a couple of patsies, and then anticipated
>    beating another patsy, unranked Stanford, the same Stanford which
>    hasn't had a winning season in 10 years.
    
>    To what depths will Notre Dame drop?  The smart money says no lower
>    than #6, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
    
     
    Dan is absolutely correct here.  In USA Today's poll, ND is ranked 6th.  
    I think they may drop to 7th or 8th, ND definitely won't drop out of
    the to 10.  Miami lost to BYU on the road and dropped to 10th. 
    Stanford is not as good as BYU, plus Shame was playing at HOME.  And
    the 2 undeserving victories at the start of the season shouldn't be
    forgotten.  
    
    Joe    

    >         -< Hey Dan, I'll take that bet.  A six pack of beer. >-
    
    /Dawn, you'll have to pay off your first bet before you're given any
    more credit at this bank!
    
    Dan

       He's one of them guys that gets a call in the middle of the night
    to: "meet me behind da warehouse, an bring a shovel".
                                Denny

    thats right, i have worked alot of late nights in areas  that
    
    arent  well lighted, dont cha know
    
    
    
    guido  dinz
    

    Hey Guido Dinz, tell /Don what we do to dose guys who don't pay dere
    gamblin' debts...
    
    Dan

       Hear that /Don, you git to drink a bottle a day. Better send Dan
    mail and tell him you're outta beer already!
                                    Denny

    ND won't drop below #10 because all the other good teams have already
    lost, so the impact is not as big four games into season as it is first
    two weeks, when sportwriters believe all the pre-season hype about the 
    different school being "rated before the season opener".tjk
    

Frankly I think they should drop below 10 in the polls.
I'd wager to guess that 12-13 is about where they should be ranked right now.
They haven't impressed me this season. They haven't dominated anybody in 
their schedule but they have played some decent competition. Stanford is not
a slouch of a team.

I say ND is comparable to CU and BYU this year. Virginia is over-rated and
after watching Miami destroy FSU I'd say the Canes are under-rated. Nebraska
and OU haven't proven anything yet but they haven't gotten into the meat of 
their schedule yet either. One of the 3 (OU,NU or CU) will remain in the top
ten or all of them will drop out of it. 

If ND wins the rest of their games they will be back at a 3 or 4 ranking 
depending on the big 8 battles.


Metz


btw- By over and under rated I mean team ability vs. poll ratings...Virginia 
     doesn't have a team that can compete w/ miami or NU yet they are ranked in
     the top 5 based on schedule.

   Illinois should be Number One. (Beat Colorado, who beat Stanford, who
                                   beat Notre Dame) or sompin' lak dat!
   Notre Dame #2

   Virginia   #3

   Michigan   #4

   Oklahoma   #5

   Colorado   #6

   Tennessee  #7

   Florida State  #8

   Auburn         #9

   Slippery Rock #10

   Nebraska and Clemson should not be ranked.

   Miami should be put on probation... then shot.

   Dan `Drano' Schneider should be fined for bad-mouthing Notre Dame and
   for being a rag armed quarterback ;'D

   `nuff said
   Mike JN

    Michigan #1?
    
    They may have a legit reason to be there,but the fact remains that they
    have one loss and OU,NU, and UVA are undefeated. Let's throw out 
    strength of schedule as ND remembers well from '89 and go with records.
    
    Miami in my opinion legitimately won #1 last year because they beat ND
    in the head to head comp even though ND had the much tougher schedule.
    So if we use the same logic, if Michigan and Nd end up with the same
    record then ND should be ranked ahead of the Wolverines because of
    head to head comp.Until there is a playoff, then head to head comp
    where teams have identical records should be the determining factor.
    
    ND will really have to turn it around if they hope to end the year with
    one loss. But I believe !! 
    
    USC gets to play Stanford now at Palo Alto. Wonder if the Trojans will
    catch the Cardinal in "upset hangover"
    
    
    ML
    

    WELL Dan, in  /dons case who always prognosticates  against
    
    the  Loonies in the WAFFLE  league, his  punishment , would be
    
    life time tickets to the  New  England  Pats
    
    
    dinz
    

    	No lower than 6th in the AP poll eh Dan?  Just admit you were
    to chickenpoop to back up your bold predictions.
    
    				/Don

    Certainly wasn't any 13th or 19th like other teams got, and those were
    beaten by good teams, unlike the Irish's loss.  As JD mentioned in the
    ACC note, voters may hate some teams, and not judge them fairly.  Much
    more obvious though is that voters may adore certain teams and always
    overrate them.  Such is obviously the case here.
    
    Dan                                                                  

    But /Don, I was right.
    
    Dan

    Wow,this note has been quiet for a while!
    
    Any predictions for the Catholics vs Convicts III ,the Final War?
    
    Methinks there'll be plenty of yardage thru the air on bof sides.
    
    Irish take no prisoners!
    
    ND 31, Miami 28
    I hope.
    
    Waitin for virginia or nebraska in some bowl
    
    ML
    
    

Miami 28, Notre Dame 14.

Miami will definitely abuse Notre Dame's week secondary, looking like
Stanford did on offense. Notre Dame will have a hard time scoring on
Miami's D, probably not doing as well as Florida State.

TTom

  Good start Tom but you forgot the part about in the fourth quarter where
  they run it down their throats to eat up the remaining time and avoid the
  possible comeback...

  Convicts by 20   31-10......

 mike

    Yo Mike,
    	Even though I'm a huge Irish supporter and i pick em to win,I
    get a real shaky feeling. The Irish have a lot of talent,but it seems
    that it hasn't jelled on defense. New defensive coordinator Gary
    Darnell has been taking a lot of heat and holtz said on his show that
    he is real disappointed with the "D" Seems they were again real
    inconsistent against Air Force,which is only a running team. At times
    they shut down the run against AF,at other times they looked like Swiss
    Cheese.  Defensive line starters Dahl and williams were sat down I
    believe and were replaced with speedier linemen (the names escape me)
    but also were inconsistent. You cain't have a good D when Zorich and
    Stonebreaker are doing the vast majority of the work with seemingly
    little help from the other Dl and LB's. And I'm not even talking about
    the secondary!!
    
    It seems Holtz sent a message to his offensive backfield by benching
    Watters and Tony Brooks and using Dorsey Levens. I dunno,I never liked
    Watters, I think his style reminds me of the Orange 'Canes. Too much
    hotdogging. But Mirer to Brown,Ismail,Jarrel,and  Tony Smith might
    keep the 'Canes secondary scurrying about. Hope ericson don't do that
    to the Irish secondary!
    
    There's always hope when the game is under Touchdown Jesus! 
    
    
    Ml
    
     
    

    Mike,
    
    I agree with you whole heartedly and hope that the Irish can work a
    little magic under the dome this weekend and pull it out.  Hey, as the
    old addage goes they don't ask how, they just ask how many.  The Irish
    are gonna need many!!  My call is the Irish 39 'canes 38 as Miami
    misses a field goal as the lights goes out at Notre Dame Stadium just
    before the kick.
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    	Who's gonna pull the switch,me or you
    
    ML
    

    I think it will be a high scoring game, N.D. has no secondary and
    to top that off they have no pass rush, you need one or the other
    not having either has hurt them this year so far. Someone said that
    Miami's D will hold N.D. to only ten points, look at Miamis defense
    so far this year, not to swift either, besides BYU, I remeber
    California scoring twenty some points against them, but they do
    have a pass rush which will help there weak secondary. 
    
                                              N.D.   31
     
                                              Miami  28

    
    	Doesn't ND have an all american DB named Lyte(sp?).  He
    	is supposedly in the top ten of Heisman hopefuls.  So,
    	ND actually has 1/4 of a secondary instead of none  :^)
    
    	Claybone

    Air Force is down to their 3rd QB this season but somehow managed to
    score 27 points, so Miami should have a field day.  Teams have scored
    some points on Miami this year, and I expect Mirer to have a good game,
    but it won't be enough.  The only way ND can beat Miami IMO is if the
    Canes have alot of turnovers.
    
    Miami 38
    Shame 20
    
    Joe

    
    Re. .449.
    
    In partial defense of ND's D against AF, 21 of those points were scored
    when the game was out of reach. However, that's what ND thought when
    they had Stanford on the ropes 24-7 in 2nd quarter. It might be a case
    of who has the ball for the last possesion.
    
    As far as the ND Offense, I think the passing threat will open up their
    running attack against the 'canes; something that Miami hasn't seen
    from ND while Tony Rice was around.
    
    Educate me; Is Miami's running asttack formidable as well as the pass?
    
    
    ML
     

    
    > Educate me; Is Miami's running asttack formidable as well as the pass?
    
    Miami ran all over Florida State; their running game may very well be
    as good as their passing game.
    
    glenn
    

 Miami still has Conley and McGuire in the backfield same starters as last 
 year. BYU did a good job of stuffing the run so I assume Holtz has watched
 the tape and has some ideas beside divine intervention. He still going to
 need the D.I. to get over the hump in this one......

 mike     

    And, of course, look for Miami to celebrate each time a player re-ties
    his shoelace......  :-)
    
    Hawk

     I expect a Miami win.  ND hasn't looked that great this year. 
    Hopefully Erickson will have toned down the taunting.
    
    JD

    Has anyone seen the "Catholics vs. Convicts" T-shirts yet? ;-)
    
    Mike

    re .445
    
    Yes,
    Dave Mcneil was at the Stanford game and brought back one.
    
    On the front it says " Catholics vs Convicts III
                           
                            The Final War
    
    On the back it says     Oct 21,1990
    
                            Take No Prisoners
    
                  (I think it's in that order,with of course
                   " Catholics in green and Convicts in Orange)
    
    
    That's where I "stole" the quotes from.
    
    Dave says he'll sell you his for 50-60 bucks!!
    
    
    ML
    
    
    
    
    That's where I "stole" the lines from
                               

    I don't like this Catholics vs. Convicts crap.  Really dumb and
    rather classless on ND's student population.   
    
    JD

    I,too, thought it was somewhat classless three years ago, but it's kind
    of perpetuuated itself. It's kinde of humorous now,really doesn't mean
    anything but a reference to the game (Now that the 'canes got rid of
    the fatigues). 
    
    Just a thought; I'd like to shoot both school's mascots. The leprechaun
    is kinda weak and that BIRD is ripe for gullet-slashing
    
    
    ML
       

    
    
    I was surprised to read an interview with some Miami players that said,
    disregading the pregame garbage, once the games started, N.D. was one
    of the cleanest playing teams they face.
    
    
    Lou

    
    Gee, I thought they all carried knives onto the field? At least 
    that's the impression I get from reading some of the anti-ND 
    notes from in here! 8^)))))
    
    I too think ND will lose this game. They have not impressed me
    in the least. I thought last years team was much better and that
    ND did not deserve the pre-season #1 ranking. Maybe it put too 
    much pressure on them or then again it might have helped them squeak
    out a couple of wins. 
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    Lou Holtz on the "Catholics vs. Convicts" T-shirts, from today's The
    National:
    
    "Those T-shirts are not sold on campus.  If they are, if anybody is, I
    believe they're prosecuted.  I might be wrong on that but I will assure
    you the University of Notre Dame has absolutely nothing to do with
    those T-shirts.  For all I know they're printed down in Miami and
    [someone's] making a fortune."
    
    Right, Lou.  Divorce Notre Dame from the shirt controversy completely 
    and then make an off-the-cuff suggestion that they're coming from
    Miami.  Nice.  (Before anyone gets too worked up, I'm posting the quote
    in a humorous vein as yet another episode from the Wacky World of Lou
    Holtz.  No offense to Notre Dame itself intended.) 
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn,
    
    Lou also called Erickson the other day, and both talked about trying
    to cool emotions.
    
    ON the prosecution bit, since ND is a PRIVATE university, you can't
    just go on campus and sell stuff.  This was the case at Northeastern,
    which is also private.  Of course, there are ways around anything.
    
    It would be pretty funny if Miami area folks were printing them,
    ala the Boz shirts at Denver.
    
    JD

    The ND football mag, Blue and Gold, aren't too optimistic for the Big
    Match this Saturday, They pick the 'Canes, 37-27. They haven't
    predicted ANYONE to beat ND by that much at home since the Faust
    era(error?)
    
    The mag expounded on the No or Little "D" this year.Seems that Holtz
    is spending all his time with the D in practice,leaving the offense
    to his assistants (which include his son Skip, and I thought just
    Mass. pols were into nepotism!). This doesn't bode well for Gary
    Darnell,the D coordinator..  Where did Darnell come from, the Univ
    of Florida? He's been catching mucho heat both on campus and from
    the alumni. Something's amiss here,he don't strap on the pads and
    make the plays,his underachieving players do(exc Zorich and Stonebreaker 
    Whether its the Defensive system,players or Darnell, let's hope the
    D can get its act together for Miami. They'll need to.
    
    
      ML
    

  >> Convicts by 20   31-10......
     
    Mike, I guess you come from the Digital School of Sale-Target
    Calculation 
    
    PJ

 Actually PJ I was refering to football spreads. Miami will cover a 20
 point spread. If the spread was 21 it's a tie........

 mike

    
    		CATHOLICS vs CONVICTS III FACTOID
    
    	People ask what the "U" on Miami's helmets means, 
    	but in actuality, it's not really a "U".
    
        It's a stylized "L" and "J" like this - "LJ".
    
  	It came about when the NCAA put Miami on secret deep probation.
	Part of the penalty was putting the "LJ" on the helmet.
    

    
    
     		LJ stands for "Latent Jailbird"
                               ^      ^
    
    
    
    

           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 59.460                  NOTRE DAME FOOTBALL!!!!                  460 of 468
RAVEN1::M_PHILLIPS "Flirting With Disaster"            1 line  17-OCT-1990 21:54
                             -< N.D. 27  MAIMI 22 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    

    Rep-1, I told you so!!!!!!:-) :-) 
    
     Nah! I thought it was a good game. I didn't see that much of it, but
    what I did see I liked. I was too upset after S.Carolina loss that I
    didn't care too much for anymore football. Then UT really punched me in
    the stomach, and N.C. State let me down, N.Carolina and Auburn helped
    my weekend seem alittle brighter, after I watched the A's get their A
    double S whipped for the 4th time straight, I decided to end this
    nightmare and hope for a better day sunday.
    
                                                               M.J.

    
    I was pleasantly suprised with the outcome of this game! 
    ND played very well on defense and that was the difference.
    Great first half! Boy that Rocket can really fly! (pun intended
    even though rockets don't fly)
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    He!! no they were given the game.........
    
    Miami was robbed....
    
    Holtz cheated......
    
    they were lucky.....
    
    Miami was looking ahead.....
    
    ND, after their performance Saturday doesn't even deserve to be
    ranked...
    
    
    many many :-)..............
    
    Lou

    I thought the funniest moment of the game was when Scott Kowalkowski
    stuck a Miami runner and stood up to celebrate.  He was facing the
    stands with his arms in the air, not realizing that he'd forced a
    fumble on the play, and behind him, the scramble for the ball was
    taking place.  If Miami had recovered the ball, I imagine life would
    have been none-too-pleasant for Mr Kowalkowski.
    
    John

    RE:.470 
    Monday mornings in the Fall at DEC must really be something. Half
    the sports fans are glad that their teams won and the other half
    are down.
    
    My week-end was great: I am from Miami, but have rooted for N.D
    since I was in elementary school, my Redskins beat the Eagles and
    I was rooting for the Reds [as a Dodger fan, with the Red Sox out of
    it, was for the NL entry].
    
    So maybe tonight a favorite team might win so that Tuesday is better
    for you.
    
    Edwin

 Good game, glad to see they left it all on the field this time instead of
 the tunnel. Rocket was definately a one man gang for the offense. Defense
 played well especially in the second half. I dispise Holtz but got to give
 the man credit he does make excellent adjustments at halftime. Can't help
 but feel if Rocket doesn't make that great KO return then it's a Miami
 rout. ND player and fans were certainly looking pretty down at that point.
 Until Conley's fumble I still felt the 'Canes we're going to comeback.
 It's a game like saturday's that makes you angry the series is ending.

 Oh well GO TROJANS!!!

 and to victors goes the spoils munch, munch, munch this crow suck!!

 mike

   I was very impressed with Miami. 

   I've been one of the more outspoken when it came to badmouthing them,
   so it's only fair to speak up for them when they deserve it.

   I thought they played a good clean game. None of the cheap crap I had
   come to identify with that team. They also were not hesitant about
   coming across and shaking hands with the ND players after what I know
   was a bitter loss. That showed class.

   Mike JN

    Mike,
    
    Erickson has worked hard at trying to reverse all the crap that
    Jimmy Johnson taught the players.  Pre-Johnson the team was clean
    and classy, then JOhnson came and turned them into a bunch of taunting,
    cheap hoods.  Erickson has got them back on track.
    
    JD

    Miami's performance IMO was similar to that of the BYU game.  Both BYU
    and ND were both more emotional and Miami really couldn't get their
    offense in gear.  Overall, I thought Miami's effort Saturday was
    disappointing.  Biggest key was probably ND's ability to run the ball
    so well.
    
    But just because ND got this big win, it isn't going to hide the fact
    that they still have to go to Knoxville on Nov. 10th.  
    
    Joe

    Miami moved the ball all day on ND (473 yards total offense), but
    couldn't put the ball in the end zone in the second half.  The fumble
    on the 5 yard line was a real killer.
    
    I'd like to make mention of the supposedly "tough" schedule Notre Dame
    plays.  They lose to a team with only one other win, the two Big Ten
    teams they lucked out against have no chance to go to the Rose Bowl
    already, Tennessee lost at home to lowly Alabama, Penn State is
    mediocre at best, and USC is the most overrated school in the nation.
    
    Week in and week out, SEC and Big 10 schools play a much tougher
    schedule than Notre Dame.
    
    NAZZ

>    Week in and week out, SEC and Big 10 schools play a much tougher
>    schedule than Notre Dame.
    
     I wouldn't say any SEC team has a schedule this year as tough as
     the Irish have.  It is a down year for the SEC, in my opinion, and
     they all have at least a couple of real patsies on the schedule when
     playing non-conference opponents, usually more.  Remember the SEC
     doesn't have a schedule in which everyone plays all the other teams
     in the conference.  Georgia, MSU, Vandy, LSU, and Kentucky are quite
     weak as well, and Alabama is not really that good, despite the win
     in Knoxville this past weekend.

    I was surprised how ND could move the ball on the ground against the
    Canes.  Also, Raghib played BIG, and it was he who keep ND momentum
    going.  Both teams played hard, but I thought that QB Erikson was
    affected by the crowd. he didn't look as poised as before. I agree that
    coach erickson(sp) has cleaned them up.  I think both coaches worked 
    hard to keep the emotions in check.  What I couldn't stand were the 
    TV announcers. They were awful! I listened to the Mutual guys on the
    radio, and turned down the tv sound. did that bring back memories of 
    listening to ND football over the Mutual Radio Network back in the 60s!

    Nazz,
    
    ND beat Michigan when Mich. was ranked #4, the beat the #2 Canes,
    they beat Mich St. when they were ranked #23, and they play Tenn
    which was #4 (didn't see full ranking this morn) and USC which was
    #11 going into the weekend.   Stanford lost last second games to
    Colorado and UCLA (but they are still fairly week, but talented.)
    
    A hell of a lot tougher than the SEC.....
    
    Look at Miami, they've played 3 ranked teams and lost to two of
    em...
    
    JD

    
    Michigan is 3-3, doesn't look too tough to me.
    MSU is 2-3-1(or some such), again not very tough
    Miami is 3-2(or 4-2) with the other loss to BYU, again not very tough
    Stanford has won 1 or 2 games, not very tough
    
    Where are all of these tough teams that ND has played?

    They all look tough unti they play ND.  :*)
    
    Lee

You're right. When you play the Big10 a lot, it does make your schedule
look weaker. Michigan and Michigan St have knocked themselves out of
contention. To put Miami in some perspective they drubbed Iowa who looks
like they have a shot for the Rose Bowl after wins over both the
Michigans. Almost as an aside, ND has also beaten Purdue this year.

TTom

    >Erickson has worked hard at trying to reverse all the crap that
    >Jimmy Johnson taught the players.  Pre-Johnson the team was clean
    >and classy, then JOhnson came and turned them into a bunch of taunting,
    >cheap hoods.  Erickson has got them back on track.
    
    C'mon, JD, the worst thing Jimmy Johnson did to you was pour it on in
    Faust's last game in 1985.
    
    As for Saturday, what a wierd game.  A agree with a previous sentiment
    that IF Rocket doesn't go 95 yards with the kickoff, it's a long day
    for ND.  Imagine that Miami gained over 500 yards on offense and the
    only TD they gave up was on the return, and still lost.  Those are
    wierd stats!
    
    But congrats to ND and their supporters.  They played extremely tough
    in the second half, especially on defense.  All those turnovers just
    took the life out of long Miami drives...ND bent but didn't break. 
    They stuffed the run when it counted and every time Erickson completed
    a pass it looked like a real effort.
    
    First time ND beat Miami legitimately in a long time, eh?
    
    Dan

    
    Let's see where they end up.  It's a circular argument posting the
    records of the teams that ND beat, because without the losses to ND the
    records look better.  I don't think that anyone can objectively deny
    that Miami, even if off a bit, is a fine football team, and the same
    can be said for Michigan, even if they were overrated.
    
    When tough teams play tough teams, half of them come out of it with 
    losses.  Notre Dame's schedule *is* tough.  
    
    glenn
    

    
    If ND can beat Tennessee in Knoxville on Nov. 10 then I will agree that
    ND is a tough team.

    
    Dan, I believe ND scored a touchdown in the second half also.
    
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    1955	at ND 14	Miami 0
    
    1960	at Miami 28	ND 21
    1965	at Miami 0	ND 0
    1967	ND 24		at Miami 22
    
    1971	ND 17		at Miami 0
    1972	at ND 20	Miami 17
    1973	ND 44		at Miami 0
    1974	at ND 38	Miami 7
    1975	ND 32		at Miami 9
    1976	at ND 40	Miami 27
    1977	ND 48		at Miami 10
    1978	at ND 20	Miami 0
    1979	ND 40		at Miami 15
    
    1980	at ND 32	Miami 14
    1981	at Miami 37	ND 15  (ND wins 11 in a row to this point)
    1982	at ND 16	Miami 14
    1983	at Miami 20	ND 0
    1984	Miami 31	@ND 13 (Miami's only win at ND)
    1985	at Miami 58	ND 7
    1986	NO GAME
    1987	at Miami 24	ND 0
    1988	at ND 31	Miami 30
    1989	at Miami 27	ND 10
    1990	at ND 29	Miami 20
    
    at Notre Dame:  ND 9 Miami 1
    at Miami:	    ND 6 Miami 6 1 tie
    
    Total	    ND 15 Miami 7 1 tie
    
    Points:  ND 511, Miami 410
    
    ND first took on this series to give its team alumni a nice trip to a
    warm weather city over Thanksgiving.  Miami and USC alternate dates on
    the ND schedule.  The series itself was a joke until the mid-eighties.
    
    John

    No wonder Miami wanted out!

   Astute observation, Hawsteronymus!
   It's obvious that Miami realizes all they had to look forward to would
   be year after year of ever more humiliating defeats.
   Poor dumb schmucks!
   It's an even MORE dominating series for the Irish when you remember
   that in any series of encounters spanning more than eleven years, the
   winner of the most games also gets credit for all ties as wins. Thus
   making ND  16-7

   Mike JN

    So looking at the recent ND/Miami history objectively, this year's
    Notre Dame victory was the first legitimate one since 1982.
    
    Dan

    
    You might as well write off the games up through 1979, when Miami was
    scheduled as a free win.  After Schnellenberger righted the program and
    cracked the top 20 for the first time in 1980, Miami finished 6-4
    against the Irish.  Hence my claim that the 80's proved Miami to be more
    than ND originally bargained for.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    Ok....
    
    Then subtract the years that they had the H.S. coach.........Faust.
    
    He did more to destroy the ND program than anyone..............:-)
    
    
    Lou

    
    I'm not speaking towards *who* owned the rivalry; ND did over the entire
    series.  I'm only speaking towards *why* the series was dropped by the
    team that wanted it dropped, to the detriment of all college football 
    fans.  The end of that game Saturday was a very sad moment indeed.
    
    glenn
     

    I don't think the Notre Dame-Miami rivalry is over.
    
    As independents, they can pick and choose their favorite bowl games. 
    As such, I'm sure they'll be meeting again on many New Year's Days to
    come.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    This is National Championship material?
    
    So far the refs are really jobin' Pitt!
    
    Bob V.
    

    re -1
    
    WAAAA WAAAAA WAAAAAA WAAAAA WAAAAA
    
    Geez, what a whiner...
    
    And yep, it is NAt. Champ. material, as is Virginia, Nebraska,
    Washington, Auburn, et al....
    
    
    WAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
    
    
    JD

    It looks like Chris Zorich will be out indefinately due to a dislocated
    kneecap.  This is the same injury he suffered his freshman year.
    He will surely miss the Navy game but is unsure about the rest of the
    season.  Details in the National.
    
    Dave
    
    Hope he's back for the Vol's!

    How serious is a dislocated kneecap?  I've done that several times in
    my life.  Doesn't feel real good at all.  In fact, it even hurts to
    think about it...especially when you've experienced that pain.  But My
    knee was always back to near 100% within a few days.  
    
    Now if he dislocated it and someone popped him, that's a different
    story.  And another factor might be the pressure put on an unsupported
    knee.  I only go about 165.  Imagine all of Zorich's weight coming down
    on a leg that has its kneecap about four inches out of place.  Ouch!
    
    	--dan'l

    University of Houston : UNDEFEATED AND UNTIED !!!!!!
    
    THAT'S NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP MATERIAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!

       So Dock, how come your not touting this latest Houston Qb for the
    Heisman? Aren't his numbers better than Ware's?
                                            Denny

    The Notre Dame Jihad may be too much to overcome this year Denny. If
    the Rocket plays half-decent the rest of the year, and has a big game
    on National TV, the Heisman is his ..... :-(
    
    However, Klinger is playing fantastic ball - he's also helped by the
    fack that he has had the longest training in the run and shoot (3 years
    on the sidelines), and most of last year's recievers are back,
    including Manny Hazard, who caught 120 balls last year,a nd is finally
    healthy this year.
    
    UH will go undefeated ...
    
    GO MANNY - GO CHUCKIE - GO KLINGER !!!!!!
    
    COOOOOOOOGGGGSSSSSSSSS !!!!!!!!!!

    	Klinger eh?  A quarterback eh?  Put a dress on him!

    Houston, Championship material.................PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
                                              M.J.

    
    I thought his name was Klingler, not Klinger?
    
    
    
    
    Steve

       The Pats need a Qb... he has a dress... He's OURS!!!
    Seriously Doc, is he graduating early? We WILL have the first pick.
                                                      Denny

    re: .501
    
    I'm not sure how serious a dislocated knee cap is, but it is the same
    injury he suffered after his freshman season.  At that time it was
    thought he would only miss a day or two of spring practice but it
    turned out he missed all of it.  
    
    Who knows, it may just be a ploy to give the Vol's a little more
    confidence going into the game next week.  Then suprise....there's
    Zorich at full strength!
    
    
    Dave

    re .508
    
    Actually I think he's a red-shirt junior or senior, so he just might
    ...

    That's right Doc.  He's a redshirt junior and on target to graduate
    this spring.  Thought I read somewhere that he was going to forego his
    last year of eligibility and head right for the NFL.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Whew,  the Irish won ugly Sat. vs Navy. Holtz called his defense an
    "embarrassment to the University"  He said he was personally
    embarrassed because he had to keep the first offensive unit out there
    all game even though they scored 52 points. He sure looked po'd in the
    post game interview. Will the real ND defense please stand up!! 
    Gary Darnell must feel real comfortable. 
    
    However a win is a win.  
    The big test on Saturday;   Irish 21,Vols 17
    
    
    
    ML
     

    Houston is on probation, and therefore a lot of voters aren't
    supporting them. 
    
    IMO, if Virginia was #$1 with there schedule, then HOuston should
    be #1 because they are undefeated.  I don't feel ND is #1, but everyone
    lost this week, and Washington is stuck playing in a weak division.
    
    I thought is was brutal that Virginia was dropped to what, #13 on
    al oss on a last minute field goal. 
    
    Moore from Virginia should win the Heisman.
    
    JD

    This week's AP Poll:
                            Points
    1. ND (37)               1456
    2. Wash (13)             1403
    3. Houston (5)           1337
    4. Colorado (5)          1310
    5. Miami                 1228
    6. Iowa                  1129
    7. Ga Tech               1074
    8. BYU                   1039
    9. Tennessee             980
    10. Florida              949
    
    If Houston wasn't on probation, they would probably be #1.  I think
    that AP should either be like UPI and don't rank a team on probation or
    rank them accordingly.  Right now it's like AP is 'half-ranking' them. 
    Another solution would be to rank them all season but make them
    ineligible for the final poll and subsequently the label 'national
    champ.'  
    
    If CU wins the Orange Bowl they shouldn't have much trouble
    leapfrogging Houston, because right now CU only trails UH by 27 points
    in the poll.
    
    The biggest problem I have with the Heisman is putting so much
    importance on how a player's team is doing.  If UVA had won Saturday,
    Moore would probably have it wrapped up right now.  But just because
    they lost, he's in the middle of the pack.  The best example is with
    Ismail and Craig Erickson.  Right now Ismail is one of the leading
    contenders and Erickson isn't listed in most Heisman polls.  Let's say
    Ismail and Erickson had the same stats they actually had in the
    Miami-ND game, but Miami won the game.  Where would Erickson be right
    now?  Erickson would be the Heisman frontrunner, and not coincidentally,
    the Canes would be ranked #1.  
    
    
    Joe

                                                 
    > If Houston wasn't on probation, they would probably be #1.  I think
    > that AP should either be like UPI and don't rank a team on probation or
    > rank them accordingly.  Right now it's like AP is 'half-ranking' them. 
    
    I disagree.  The probation may eventually hurt Houston come bowl time,
    but I don't think that's what's keeping them out of the number one
    spot right now.  They've had to come a long way just to get to number 
    three and still haven't played any tough competition (this week against
    Texas is the big one).  They play a wide-open game on offense in
    combination with little defense (TCU set an NCAA record for passing 
    yardage against them last week), resulting in fast changes of
    possessions and obscene scores for both sides.  I think the voters
    see through this to an extent.  As a matter of fact, it's something of 
    a travesty that a well-rounded, high-quality team like Colorado trails
    Houston in the AP poll, in my opinion.
    
    In contrast, Oklahoma, also on probation, was ranked very well earlier
    in the season (overranked, as a matter of fact) in spite of the penalty.  
    Against their competition, if Oklahoma were still undefeated, they'd 
    undoubtedly be #1 regardless of the sanctions.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
re. 515
    
 
>    They've had to come a long way just to get to number three 
    
    True.
    
>    and still haven't played any tough competition (this week against
>    Texas is the big one).
    
    Texas A&M is a quality ball club, and TCU and Tech will be bowl teams.
    Granted, a couple of strong non-conference games would help their
    cause, but the SWC isn't nearly as weak as some people make it out to
    be. Hell, the Big10 has more patsies than the SWC.
    
>     They play a wide-open game on offense in combination with little 
>    defense (TCU set an NCAA record for passing yardage against them last 
>    week),
    
    Glenn, do your homework. TCU was part-aberration, and part good talent
    on TCU. Houston had a great defense last year under Pardee, and they
    lost a lot of talent due to graduation. Even so, they were playing
    respectable D until the TCU game.
    
    Notre DAme gave up 521 yards to *Navy*, why don't I see a note decrying
    that ????
    
>     resulting in fast changes of possessions and obscene scores for both
>     sides.  
    
    Yawn. see above. 
    
    And in any case, why the hell should Houston be penalized for having a
    great offense ????
    
>     I think the voters see through this to an extent. 
    
    Bull. Voters see what they want to. There is nothing to see through. If
    that was Notre Dame, or Michigan, or Miami, nobody would say squat.
    Once again, it is stupid to jump on Houston just because they are such
    a well-honed offensive machine, and you and other voters have a hard
    time accepting it.
    
>   As a matter of fact, it's something of a travesty that a well-rounded, 
>    high-quality team like Colorado trails Houston in the AP poll, in my 
>    opinion.
 
    IMO, it is a travesty that you can reel off a line like the one above.
    Colorado is not as "well-rounded" as you'd like us to believe. They
    just play the run-oriented game that has you brainwashed. 
    
    And while we're on the subject, Chuck Wetherspoon is on another 1,000
    yard pace, and last year he broke Greg Pruitt's record for average
    yards per carry.
    
    And the reason why they trail is simple. They lost one and tied one.
    The Cougars have done neither. 
      
>    In contrast, Oklahoma, also on probation, was ranked very well earlier
>    in the season (overranked, as a matter of fact) in spite of the penalty.  
>    Against their competition, if Oklahoma were still undefeated, they'd 
>    undoubtedly be #1 regardless of the sanctions.
 
    So would Houston. They are not unbeatable. Actually they had a better
    team last year, IMO. But they can hold their own with any team in the
    country.
    
    DrM
    

    Hmmmm.  Houston..... Best team money can buy.  Whoops,sorry, Oklahoma
    already has a patent on that one.
    
    Seriously, why is Houston on probation( I honestly don't know)
    
    
    ML
    

    
    I've given my opinion of Houston.  It may be wrong.  This weekend will
    go a long way towards proving that, if they can pull the same act
    they've been doing all season against Texas (not that I think Texas is 
    that great, but they're a very respectable opponent).  Houston just 
    sneaked by Rice and had to come from way back to beat Texas A & M late.  
    How much homework do I need to do to see that they're scoring a lot of
    points and so are their lowly-ranked opponents?  Those are the reasons
    I'm skeptical.  Again, we'll see what they do versus Texas.  Don't take
    it personally or anything.
    
    glenn
    

    Back in the Bill Yeoman era, players were getting payments (supposedly
    humanitarian, actually there is proof that it was), but nothing on a
    scale like SMU and OU. Anyhow, Yeoman was pressured to resign, and the
    NCAA decided to "go easy" as a result, 2 years probation, and one year
    off TV.
    
    Considering that none of the players currently on the roster (or last
    year's had anything to do with the past garbage - this really stinks.
    
    Doc

    > Back in the Bill Yeoman era, players were getting payments (supposedly
    > humanitarian, actually there is proof that it was), but nothing on a
    > scale like SMU and OU.
    
    Most of Oklahoma's bad publicity has come from criminal activity, not
    NCAA violations.  Can you substantiate your claim?  Between having a
    field day with the rapes and drug busts, the media almost never gets 
    down to what exactly it was that OU did to merit probation.  It's 
    always referred to as "recruiting violations", but without mention of 
    cash payments as in Houston's case.  OU's penalty was not as severe as 
    either Houston's, SMU's, or Oklahoma State's.  How did they get off so 
    easily if what they did was so much worse?
    
    This is not to apologize for what's gone on at Oklahoma.  In fact, I
    was hoping that Switzer would be fired back around 1982 when the SEC
    (and that's not the Southeastern Conference) was on his butt.
    
    What exactly were these humanitarian payments, by the way?  I'm sure 
    you could find players in like situations at almost any major football 
    school.  That's why I'd favor some relief in the form of a stipend. 
    It's the least the NCAA could do if they won't even allow the athletes
    to hold jobs on campus.
    
    glenn
    

    My feeling is that Houston is undefeated and should be ranked #1
    until they lose just like everyone else.  Houston will have no 
    problem with Texas, for Texas looks like their offense is sputtering.
    The reason Washington is not ranked #1 is the fact that they played
    lousy at the beginning of the season, although I think they are playing
    the best football in the country the past three or four weeks.  Can
    you say Florida State disease.  
    
    I think the whole who's number one debate is entertaining.  I just
    think a poll is a poll and a tournament has a winner.
    
    Jimbo

    Blue&Gold Illustrated picks the Irish over the Vols 27-23 and today's
    copy of the National picks the Irish 21-17.
    
    Even tho I'm picking ND, don't have a comfortable feeling about the "D"
    with Zorich possibly being out combined with Tennessee's "O" line and
    good passing attack.
    
    Still, ND 21, Vols 17
    
    For those in the Boston area, the "4'"s Bar on Canal St. near Boston
    Garden will be rockin' as the ND Club of Boston gets together to watch
    the game at 2. Only Irish fans allowed (you have to take a lie detector
    test on the way in!!)
    
    ML
    

    
    RE-1
    
       Notre Dame is not only going to have problems with the "O" line, but
    they will have problems with the UT recievers!  If the Vols can stop
    the ND run they will be in great shape with the best pass Defense in
    the nation.  Vols by 10!!!
    
    
    Dave
    
    
    

    I can't N.D. pulling this one (I hope I;m wrong). This is probably
    the second best O.L. best OL they've faced this year, second behind
    Michigan, but UT sure can throw the ball and they got wide-outs that
    can fly and two of them are high jumpers. But Lou Holtz has started
    the pschy. saying that his defense last week caused him to have his
    most embarrasing game of his carreer, and he really can't see them
    beating UT at UT. He compares it to last years agme on the road vs
    Miami, he said the kids didn't handle it well. After that I started
    to think, normally when he does this the team answers his challenge.
    N.D. will have to come clicking early on offense, because I watched
    the game with UT and Floride and once the crowd and team got rolling
    there nothing they could do.
                               My head says    UT    34
    			                       ND    24
    
     			       My heart says   ND    31
    		                               UT    27

    FYI, weather forecast looks like great football weather...cold and
    rainy!  Can't remember, does UT have natural or atificial turf?  Could
    be fun!
    
    	--dan'l

    
    They have a rug.  It would be even better on a "real" football surface.
    

    Good win... Congrats to all you ND Fans. Hope those of you that were
    there had a good time and were treated right. Look forward to going up
    to South Bend next year.
    
    Rich  :-(

    The Vols let me down severely, but I must admit this one hell of a
    game.  I surely gained some gray hairs during this one.  When UT threw
    that pick at the end, at least I had the sense to pound my fist onto
    the bed instead of into the wall.  
    
    You can look at certain points of this game as critical, but IMO UT
    blew it when the led 23-20 and had the ball midway thru the 4th.  That
    onside kick was incredible, and after that I thought UT had the
    incredible comeback sewed up.  I was also surprised that ND could run
    as well as they did against UT, which was obviously one of the keys.  
     
    UT contained Rocket well until that big run late in the game.  Speaking
    of Rocket, did I see him in there on kick coverage?  That seemed like a
    strange situation to me.  When ND pulls all these last-minute games
    out, I have to give most of the credit to Holtz.  He just won't let his
    team get down, even when they've been on the verge of being blown out. 
    As much as I hate the weasel, he is an excellent game coach IMHO.  
    
    The crowd didn't seem to be very loud for 96,000-plus to me.  Maybe it
    was just that watching it on TV you couldn't really tell.
    
    
    Joe

    UT hasn't been on national TV much in the past few years.  I forgot how
    beautiful the area was this time of year.  Great stadium shot with the
    mountains in the background.
    
    At least the Vols beat ND in scenery.  
    
    	--dan'l

    Geez, I think Eastern Kentucky University should be number #1 because
    they're undefeated...  ;-)
    
    Go Irish!
    
    Signed, 
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach (EKU Class of '86)
    
    P.S.  I hope they won this weekend...

    	But Tennessee's got to do something about that Ralston-Purina
    end zone...
    
    				/Don

    The worst thing about Notre Dame's win Saturday is not that they are
    still number one.  Penn State will take care of that.  
    
    No the worst thing is that the sputtering rocket is probably the
    leading Heisman candidate even with a dismal performance.  Because of
    one key run and Houston's loss, he'll get the sentimental nod.
    
    If Jim Nance had said how "special" Is-he-male was one more time, I
    would have barfed.
    
    But he is a big time Steelers fan so he can't be that bad. 
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I still don't think Ismail is worth a damn as a running back or as a
    receiver... but he's got that blazing speed that results in 1-2 huge
    plays per game.  I think he's much more valuable than the stats show,
    and more valuable to ND than Tim Brown was in his offense.  Shouldn't
    be the Heisman winner, though.
    
    glenn
    

Personally I think of Ismail as a side show....
He isn't a starting running back...he isn't a starting wr...Notre Dame 
manufactures a spot for them (slot back,h-back or whatever) and uses them
sparingly during the games...He is a good return man and gets a few reverse
calls during the course of the season...He's a Tim Brown clone with better
speed...

I think of him much like a baseball pitcher winning the MVP. They aren't 
everyday players so I don't think they shold be eligible for the MVP unless
you have extenuating circumstances or no everyday player has the stats to
win the award.

Public Bienemy #1 is a player who is out there on most offensive series and
is generating consistant offense and taking the hits for it.He's an everyday 
player. I'd vote for Bienemy over Ismail any day....

This is one year where a dominant defensive player could have had a shot at
winning it....

Metz

>    but he's got that blazing speed that results in 1-2 huge
>    plays per game.  I think he's much more valuable than the stats show,
    
    I agree that he's much more valuable than his stats show, but as far as
    the value he adds to ND, I'd have to put him behind Mirer.  Mirer
    hasn't thrown many picks and had the big drives against Michigan,
    Michigan State, and almost against Stanford.  And don't forget that the
    QB position was the biggest questionmark for the Irish coming into this
    season, and Mirer has delivered.  Not that I think Mirer is Heisman
    material, but right now I would say that he's more valuable to ND than
    rocket.
    
    Joe    
    

    
    Congrats to all the ND fans, they will definitely get my vote for #1
    this week.  They ran all over the Vol defense and UT could not do
    anything about it.  Looking forward to the game next year in Indiana
    with a win over the Irish.
    
    
    Dave
    

    I don't think the Rocket should win the Heisman either, but to
    put him in the category of not playing all the time. His in
    almost all the plays, he comes out after some plays then goes
    right back in. He starts at slot back, plays wide receiver and
    tailback during the course of a game. Ask any coach preparing
    his team for ND who they spend the majority of time worrying
    about. Mirer huh  No
           Waters huh No
           Culver huh No
    
    Don't get me wrong like I said in the first sentence I don't think
    he deserves the trophy, personally I think Bienemy should take
    it hands down, but the Rocket is the most dangerous player in the
    game. When he lines up at slot back or wide reciever he is double
    teamed. I bet you the teams that play N.D. every year were real
    glad to hear him say he was coming back for his senior year.

    
    Rickey Watters definitely gave Majors fits. He is an 
    un-heralded constant in the ND backfield. 
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    Greetings, Notre Dame fans!
    
    Just a short note from a Colorado fan.  Looking forward to a rematch at
    the Orange Bowl for the National Championship!  Of course, we here in
    Colorado expect the outcome to be more favorable to CU than last year's
    game.
    
    Wishing you luck for your remaining two games of the season.  Let's
    make sure that New Years Night in Miami, the National Championship game
    will be in the Orange Bowl!
    
    Regards,
    Jan

    Re.- Rickey Watters
    
    Disagree. Do not consider him un-heralded constant. In fact this year
    he has been a heralded inconsistent disappointment until the Navy and
    Tennessee games. When he has his head on straight,he can be a force.
    However, his head has been looking skyward,searching for fans'
    adulation. He had been benched in favor of Tony Brooks as I think
    that Holtz was disappointed not only in his performance but leader
    ship ability(he is one of the co-captains). I hope he has turned
    the corner because he can also be a game breaker.
    
    Re- CU
    	I hope to make the Orange Bowl for the rematch! I went to school
    at ND with Colorado's Offensive coordinator,Gerry Dinardo. Gerry was
    a wild man in our dorm,but looks like he lost about 75 lbs since then.
    However he still is the reigning champion for UMOC (Ugliest Man on
    Campus).  
    
    ND still has beat both Penn St and USC and they will have to be focused
    and up for both games in order to win. I'm flying out tomorrow to
    South Bend for the Penn St game so I hope to see an Irish victory.
    Hey,Dan Schneider,want me to get Holtz' autograph for you?
    
    
    
    ML
     

    If Notre Dame had wimped out of the Miami-ND series one year earlier,
    Miami would probably be ranked # 1, (preseason, plus their loss would 
    have come earlier than ND's) ND would be ranked #2, and Colorado #3.
    
    If this were the case, Miami could play Colorado in the Orange Bowl
    for the National Championship and ND would be left out in the cold.
    And Miami would be perfectly justified in bypassing ND.
    
    I just hope this situation occurs within the next few years, especially
    if Lou Holtz is still there.  The whining will be incredible.

    Re. .543
    	Quit YOUR whining. I would like to see Miami and ND continue their
    rivalry,but FOR NOW,it is not to be. Remember schedules are made
    ten years in advance and the end of the series was planned awhile ago.
    I predict that ND and Miami will renew their seasonal series in the
    near future and in the interim hopefully we'll get to see them play
    in some bowl games. What flunky school does Miami play this weekend
    anyway?? Is it Cincinnati or East Carolina?
    
    
    
    ML
    

>   What flunky school does Miami play this weekend
>   anyway?? Is it Cincinnati or East Carolina?
    
 
 Geez ML, those teams are powerhouses compare to Miami's opponent thsi weekend

  The play the Doves from the Heights... BC

  geez even JD will be rootin and tootin for the "Canes this weekend...

 mike    

    
    > I just hope this situation occurs within the next few years, especially
    > if Lou Holtz is still there.  The whining will be incredible.
    
    Which I fear more and more everytime I hear about a development in the
    formation and expansion of a Big East football conference.
    
    glenn
    

    Re .543
    
    Of course, you're the person who didn't even rank ND in your DECpool
    top ten - which I feel sums up YOUR college football knowledge.
    
    So, who do the Canes play instead of ND?  ND picked up Florida State,
    who'd the mighty Canes pick up?  Southestern Angelo State?  Nortwest
    Montana A & I??
    
    You must like Lou Holtz - cuz allyou ever do is whine about ND and
    Miami.  Miami won exactly 33% of the tough games they played.  They
    shouldn't be ranked as high as they are.  
    
    JD

    Enough about Miami.
    
    This weekend the Irish will have to be "on" to beat a confident
    Penn St. team. The Lions have momentum with seven straight wins
    and always have played ND strong at South Bend.
    Methinks the Irish will retain the Eye of the Tiger and salt it
    away in the 4th quarter.
    
    ND  27
    PSU 13
    
    

    .543/ speaking of whining, what if this and what if that, you can't
    say that. Because N.D. beat them this year thats all there is to 
    it. Everyone is complaining about N.D. and Miami not playing
    each other every year, I think this will be good because now
    these two will be able to play for the National Championship
    in a bowl game. They'll probably meet two out of the next five
    years. 
    
                                              Dan

RE:  543 

          Since you don't seem to have one, you oughta try to
                        RENT-TO-OWN A CLUE (tm)

Anybody who doesn't rate ND even in the Top Ten has some serious reality
problems. And to rate Miami above them and whine about ND's scheduling
is ludicrous.

Miami is 6-2 with a puke schedule anad they've bit the big one almost every
time they've face a tough team this year.

Mike JN

You've sliced them, you've diced them, but you STILL cain't get
Notre Dame into the Top 10.

What do you do?  

Well, folks, you try my new line of SPORTshrooms(tm), called
NotreDameShrooms(tm).

They come to you in boxes of 10, with gold caps, singing Ave Maria
and doin' the Vatican Rag (surely you old Tom Lehrer fans remember
that one...).

Never mind being on Campus to see Touchdown Jesus...pop a few of
these babies and Touchdown Jesus will come to you, along with
Whinin' Lou.

Order now, supplies are limited.

Call 1-800-ND-DRUGS

    
    Aw, heck....I'll admit to liking Notre Dame, but only for their fight
    song.  It certainly is one of the most recognizable tunes this great
    country of ours has ever known.  It definitely should be included in
    the K-tel "Top Ten All-time College Fight Songs."
    
    Others that come to mind, off the top of my head, that would have to be
    included are "On Wisconsin", "Boolah Boolah" (Yale originally??), the
    USC tune that I don't know the name of, and the Ohio State march that
    had the tuba player dotting the "I" in their half time shows.
    
    Dickster
    

Yes, the ND fight song is a great one.  "On Wisconsin" is also
another fine fight song.  "Boolah Boolah" was from Yale.

Another Yale favorite, although more of a drinking/gettogether type
song is "The Whiffenpoof Song" -- "We are poor little lambs who
have lost our way, baa, baa, baa"....

Takes me back to the old days in Marching Band.....

'Saw

    Ohio State has two fight songs - the Buckeye Battle Cry and Across the
    Field.  Neither of these is played during Script Ohio, however.  The
    song played during Script Ohio is Le Regiment de Meuse et Sambre. 
    Before you accuse me of being a genius, however, I read it in a recent
    book.  More trivial garbage to impress your friends.
    
    USC has two fight songs as well - Fight On and Conquest.
    
    Yale plays Boola Boola, Down the Field (the tune stolen by the
    University of Tennessee for Rocky Top) and Bulldog.
    
    I love college marching bands and football music.  The only song I
    absolutely, positively cannot stand is "For Boston", largely due to
    having heard it multiple times during our former football hammerings at
    the hands of Boston College.  It got pretty sickening after a while.
    
    John
    
      

    re 552:  hey, this note is about sports, not religion. some folks 
    might not appreciate the tone implied in your reply. tk

    
    John Hendry:  the human warehouse.
    
    And yes, B.C. does have a rousing song, but it's not in my top 10
    either.  Any non-B.C. fan who has been to a game and had to listen to
    that song after every touchdown, every kickoff, every timeout, every
    first down, every field goal, every extra point, every basket, every
    freethrow, every tick of the clock....well, you get the idea.
    
    I like the line in the BC song, however, that goes "For Boston.  Where
    men are men, and the girls are, too..."
    
    Dickster
    

    RE: .556
    
    Lighten up.  
    
    	--dan'l

    Did anyone else see Reggie White of the Eagles singing the Notre
    Dame fight song on ESPN's Sportcenter last night?  Apparently, White
    lost a bet with teammate Mike Golic who went to ND (White went to
    Tennessee).  The loser had to sing the other's fight song.  It was
    great.  Reggie imrovised a new second line on his first try:
    
    		Cheer, cheer for old Notre Dame
    		Pump up the steroids ....  
    
    At that point, Golic interrupted and told him to sing the right
    words.  I was rolling!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Took White three tries to get through it.  Pretty funny stuff.
    
    NAZZ

       I heard it on the radio this AM, Reggie's definitely a good sport!
                                          Denny

re .556:

Hey dude, lighten up.

First, I've always been promoting 'shrooms in here.  Ask anyone.

Second, since I was raised Catholic, I feel I have a divine right
to kid about it, as do comics of the Jewish faith who kid about
Judaism....

Lastly, if I was taking a pot-shot at Catholics, do you really think
I'd be STUPID enough to do it *in here*?????

'Saw

Chainsaw's been smokin' Crawdads again.

Somebody call a cop.

Even if you were a Mackerel Snapper, you must be vewy, vewy caful when
speaking of TDJ.

Mike JN
PS - Lou Holtz is god (tm)

>Chainsaw's been smokin' Crawdads again.
    
    I ate some crawdads for the first time recently.  They're not too bad!
    
    Mike

    Q: Did ND manage to get into Penn's half of the field in the second half??
    
    A: I don't think so.
    
    Q: Does ND deserve to be in the Top 3??
    
    A: (Same as above)
    
    
    Just some personal observations and thoughts!!
    PJ

    Do they deserve to be in teh Top 3??  You mean, do they deserve to be
    in the top 10??
    
    But of course they will be...and in front of Penn State too.  You just
    watch.  If that happens, it's all the more reason to hate them and the
    ranking system.
    
    Was anyone else sick of seeing the Rocket reply 300 times during the
    second half?  The jerk wasn't even in there, yet he got as many replays
    of his ONE good run as much as the ongoing action.
    
    Notre Dame, media darling, will only drop to about 6th or 7th and the
    Rocket will be leading the HT ballots.  Just a crime.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    > But of course they will be...and in front of Penn State too.  You just
    > watch.  If that happens, it's all the more reason to hate them and the
    > ranking system.
    
    ND should drop out of the top five, to be sure, but no way should they
    drop below Penn State.  This is a personal observation coming from a
    Penn State fan, no less.  Keep in mind that it is impossible to rank 
    teams progressively based solely on head-to-head competition (you get
    caught in an infinite loop).  Look at Penn State's record carefully, 
    and you will see this is the first big win they've had (but what a big 
    one it was!).
    
    Sorry to report, dan'l, that after a perfect 10-0 season,
    Carnegie-Mellon dropped out of the Division III playoffs with a
    first-round 17-7 loss to Lycoming.
    
    glenn
    

    I agree N.D. should drop out of the top 5, I hope the person that said
    they should drop out of the top ten also has Miami out of the top 10 
    then. Maybe I'm one of the only ones left but I still feel that HEAD to
    HEAD is the most important factor in determing the rankings. Before
    anyone jumps down my throat, in the Decpoll rankings I will also have
    Penn ST. ranked ahead of N.D. because they beat them. I just don't
    understand the polls having Miami #2 and saying that they have a good
    chance at the National Championship  and N.D. and BYU aren't even
    mentioned. Hopefully Texas will win there last two games before playing
    Miami in the Cotton Bowl. Texas has to play at Baylor and I think there
    at home against Texas A&M. Georgia Tech controls its own destiny also,
    they play at Georgia and then Nebraska, I see them getting past Georgia
    but not Nebraska. After the last two weeks with the bowls handing out
    bids early and teams losing if anyone still thinks that there shouldn't
    be a playoff well then, WELL I guess you never will. Because this whole
    set up is now one big joke. 
                                          Dan
    

    
>    Was anyone else sick of seeing the Rocket reply 300 times during the
>    second half?  The jerk wasn't even in there, yet he got as many replays
>    of his ONE good run as much as the ongoing action.
    
    I was going to bring it up first thing this morning.  These guys just
    couldn't stop talking about him.  They were missing the point that the
    biggest reasons Penn St was getting back in the game was the improved
    play of the Lions in the 2nd half and Mirer'r poor passing and 2 int's.
    
    But the one that irked me the most was when Tim Brando gave an update
    on the USC-UCLA game and said that ND could lose one of their last
    2 regular season games and still win the national championship!!  Well,
    at least USA Today had the correct senses to drop the Irish to 8th and
    out of title contention.  Let's hope the AP voters have just as much
    common sense.  Of course, the bowls have screwed it up for the 2nd year
    in a row by getting the Irish committed too soon instead of letting CU
    play Miami.
    
    Joe    

    If CU playes Miami they will get killed...
    
    REK

    Glenn,
    
    thanks for the report on Carnegie-Mellon.  Now there's a football team. 
    These guys actually have brains.  Always in contention for the Division
    III title.
    
    And just to relate this back to the main topic, somtime back in the
    Knute ND era, Carnegie Tech beat an undefeated ND team to knock them
    from the national championship.  Don't remember what year it was, but
    it was ND's only loss.
    
    BTW, I'm really not a Penn State fan.  I'm more a Pitt fan but have
    tons of respect for Joe Paterno and his program.  When Pitt and Penn
    State play I somehow manage to root for both teams.  Usually one or
    both is in the top 10 for that last game...and oh what a game it
    usually is!
    
    	--dan'l

    I agree that the Orange bowl commited to early to N.D. but every bowl
    is guilty of it not just the orange. Now if they had not commited early
    how can you say Miami deserves to be in the Orange bowl, why because
   they are on a longer winning streak than N.D., thats nuts, N.D. beat
    Miami thats all there is to it. Just like Penn St. beat N.D. I think
    Penn St. should be in the orange bowl, they have won 8 games in a row.
    I just don't understand Miami being ranked 2nd in some polls when 
    BYU has only one lost, and Texas has only one lost.
    
                                                       Dan
     

    Joe,
    
    This is a serious question. YOu applaud USA Today for dropping ND
    to 8th - but in the same poll, Miami is #2 - even though thety lost
    to ND and BYU - two teams ranked below Miami.  Now, last year, you
    were perhaps the most vocal person in here saying how ND could never
    be ranked over Miami, since Miami beat ND.  So what's the story
    Joe?  Is Miami a media darling that can lose two games, play cupcakes,
    and get a #2 ranking, DESPITE not beating Notre Dame OR BYU?  Doesn't
    seen right to me.  
    
    A little consistency, okay, Joe?  If Miami wins the national title
    (and supposed ND beats Colorado, and Miami wins in the Cotton Bowl
    - talk about ducking....) and wins the national Championship.  Won't
    that be a HUGE ripoff?  Or is your ire against the unfairness of
    polls only directed at ND.  So Joe, are you a hypocrite or what?
    
    Personally, I think ND should be about #5, with Mimai #6, and BYU
    ranked over both (I also feel that Ga. Tech, still undefeated, should
    be #1, but CU is a fine choice as #1.)
    
    JD

    Yes, I applaud USA Today for dropping ND to 8th, but I never said
    anything about Miami deserving to be 2nd.  And how is Miami ducking
    CU, when the Orange's first choice was the media darlings?  Also, I may
    have been vocal about Miami deserving the title over ND last year, but
    I guarantee I was far from being the most vocal person in here on that
    issue.
    
    While we're on the subject, let's have a look at Miami's losses
    compared to ND's.  Miami lost on the road to the 16th-ranked team in
    the country and on the road to ND, who was ranked 7th or 8th at the
    time.  Two tough games that any team in the nation could've lost, but I
    will agree that Miami shouldn't be as high as 2 right now.  Now, ND
    loses at home to an unranked team, and loses at home again to the
    18th-ranked team in the country.  In college football, home losses
    count big, especially when they're to a team not even ranked in the top
    15.
    
    We all know that the pollsters look at what you're doing lately, and
    Miami hasn't lost since the ND game while the Irish just lost this last
    weekend.  Right now Miami does deserve to ranked ahead of ND, but once
    again they shouldn't be as high as they are at #2.  The reason I said
    CU should be playing Miami in the Orange is because they are ranked
    higher than ND, and I don't feel ND deserves a shot at the #1 team at this
    point.  Okay, maybe not Miami, but who else is available?  CU has
    already played Texas and they're locked into the Cotton, BYU is
    locked into the Holiday, Ga Tech is locked into the Fiesta, & Florida is
    on probation.  I would agree with a previous noter who said Penn St would
    be a good choice for CU's opponent.
    
    Joe  
    

    RE .572
    
    Well said JD! But Miami has two excellent wins this year,crushing Rose
    Bowl bound Iowa and beating up Florida State,who would be in the
    running if they didn't get cute against Auburn. It's too bad the Canes
    don't play Florida or do they?
    

    Dave,
    
    Yeah, Mimai has two excellent wins, but ND has at least 2 also -
    Miami and Tennessee.
    
    Joe - sorry, no way does Miami deserve to be ranked over ND, or
    for that matter, BYU - ND beat them head to head.  The bowl picture
    is tough - it's the bowl committee's fault for having to have bids
    out so early.  I've never understood why the major bowls can't wait
    til after the season is OVER.  And even in that case, Miami and
    ND don't deserve to play in a game for the National Championship.
    
    Right now, it should be Colorado vs. Ga. Tech/BYU/Texas - and that's
    it.  If ND or Miami wins the title 0- it is a SHAME.
    
    JD

    
    
    No need to worry about Miami winning the National Championship, because
    Syracuse will upset them next Sunday!!!!!

JD, you can't get on Miami case for Ducking because the AD has been burning
up the phone lines to the Orange Bowl committe trying to get them to switch
their minds and allow them to play CU. Orange Bowl committee won't hear of it
though.....

not like two years ago....

mike