Conference 7.286::sports_90

    If this is true (anyone knows of anything that will confirm or deny
    it?) this is a real shocker!
    
    I have a lot of mixed feelings about this.  It has been a long time
    since such major conference membership changes have occurred.  I guess
    one main disadvantage is how you call the conference, and eleven teams
    in one conference is quite many.  There had been rumors last year that
    some state legislators in Wisconsin were trying to pull Wisconsin out
    of the Big Ten (since they can't compete!) so maybe this paves the way
    for that to happen?  In fact, I would not mind one of the Big Ten
    schools to drop out to maintain the total number at 10 (as long as
    Purdue stays :) .
    
    Geographically Penn State is quite east, but I guess it's still ok. 
    Academically Penn State is certainly respectable and up to Big Ten
    standard, and its sports programs are clean.  Mr. Paterno would be a
    good addition to the Big Ten rank.  But there will be a lack of tra-
    dition, although certainly no lack of competition, between the Nittany
    Lions with the rest of the Big Ten teams, which may take a long time to
    build up.  
    
    In the major revenue sports, Penn State will add even more strength to
    the football program.  (Gosh, Joe Paterno representing the Big Ten in
    the Rose Bowl one day soon?  Ha, just when Bo was retiring, we can get
    a legend to fill his place almost immediately for the conference!)  
    It probably won't be competitive (ala Northwestern) in hoops (are they 
    in the Atlantic Ten now?). 
    
    Go Big /*Whatever*/ !!
    
    Charles

    re -1
    
    
    it has not been confirmed that Penn State has joined the Big 10.
    
    
    I hope they dont. Independent football is the right position to
    be in these days. The last few years the top teams have been
    independents.
    
    an official announcement will be in the next 7 days ......

I think it's time for Northwestern to leave the Big 10.  They have
never been competitive in football and basketball.  They also would
seem to be in decent financial shape to withstand going solo and
cutting back the program.

	It's official that the Big Ten has invited Penn State to be
	part of the conference.  There has not been an official acceptance
	by Penn State.

	Rumors are that the Big Ten will become the Big Twelve if Penn State
	accepts.  Any speculation as to which school would be #12 ?

    Pitt?
    
    ND?
    
    Furman?
    
    Mark.

    NOTRE DAME!!

I really hate to see this happen... We don't need no Girly-mon school added
to what we have... I think that they just want a piece of the $$$$ that the
Big 10 gets for their football programs... PAterino can sip filberts for
all I care... He's a JERK!!!!!!  

Monty

    
    
    Yeah, but if they get the 12th team (sorry Joe)
    
    Maybe they could call it the "DIRTY DOZEN"
    
    
    anything for  a laugh but don't do it Joe.  Keep the Lions
    away......
    
    Kev

    On a related topic, during the annual SEC conference, the idea was
    brought up for a SuperConference.  The idea was to split the SEC, and
    bring in Florida State, Texas A&M, and South Carolina.  If I remember
    correctly one conference had Florida St., Auburn, Alabama, Texas A&M,
    Florida, and L.S.U.
    
    I haven't heard anything else about it, so I guess the idea kind of
    died.
    
    jab

    The University of Chicago could always rejoin the Big Ten.  They
    were a member until the forties, Jay Berwanger was from UChicago
    and was the first Heisman trophy winner, and their stadium, Amos
    Alonzo Stagg Field, was historic because the first atomic pile was
    in it.                                                   
    
    They and Northwestern could really hold up the academics for the
    rest of the Big Ten.
    
    John

    
    Today's USA Today said Nebraska might be the 12th team. Apparently they
    aren't too happy with all of the cheating and probations in the BIG-8
    taking money out of their coffers due to no TV, bowls etc.
    
    Personally, I hope it doesn't happen. 12 teams is too many. They don't
    all play each other now. How can you really claim a team to be the
    conference champion when they  only play 3/4 of the teams?
    
                                                    HOOT
    

    
    Speculation in Pennsylvania is that the other school to join the
    Big Whatever would be Pitt. That would leave the Big East a team
    short, with Temple possibly filling their spot. I would imagine
    that would about kill the Atlantic 10.
    
    Dennis
    

Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!wuarchive!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!att!cbnewsh!seth
From: seth@cbnewsh.ATT.COM (peter.r.clark..jr)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: Re: FLASH!!!  BIG TEN TO BECOME *ELEVEN* !!!
Summary: Rutgers?
Message-ID: <6690@cbnewsh.ATT.COM>
Date: 18 Dec 89 15:46:40 GMT
References: <1989Dec15.051016.25544@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <5213@netcom.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
 
 
I heard this weekend that Rutgers Athletic director is trying to get Rutgers
in as well. It was a pretty short article and didn't elaborate much.
 
Pete Clark Jr.
att!hos1cad!seth
att!cbnewsh!seth

Penn State is Joining Big Ten Conference 


The New York Times, Sports Section, Saturday, December 16, 1989

By Robert McG. Thomas, Jr.


After a coy, decadelong flirtation that blossomed into a full-scale romance
over the last few months, the Big Ten has finally popped the question and 
Penn State has said yes.  The school has agreed to give up its independence
and join the venerable athletic conference.

Aside from working out the details, all that remains is the public kiss.  
And that, say those familiar with the courtship, will take place next week, 
when officials from Penn State will presumably soon by known as the Big Ele-
ven plan to announce the agreement they concluded this week.

"We have reached an agreement in principle that Penn State will join the 
Big Ten," is the way it was put yesterday by the president of the University
of Illinois and the chairman of the conference's governing body, the Council
of 10, which is made up of the presidents of the Big Ten schools.

The decision to issue an invitation for Penn State to join the conference 
was made in Chicago last Sunday, the first day of the council's two-day
semiannual meeting.

A Long Campaign

The invitation was relayed by telephone to Penn State's president, Bryce 
Jordan, on Monday afternoon by Ikenberry, who acknowledged that the Penn 
State president has been delighted to learn that his long campaign to join 
the Big Ten had succeeded.

Jordan, who is stepping down as Penn State's president next summer and has 
been building a retirement home in Austin, Tex., was in Texas on what was 
described as personal business yesterday.  In his absence, Penn State offi-
cials referred all questions to the Big Ten presidents.

At a news conference called to discuss the Nittany Lions' game against Bri-
gham Young in the Holiday Bowl in San Diego on Dec. 29, Joe Paterno, the 
Penn State football coach, said he would be very pleased to see Penn State 
in the Big Ten.

Transition May Take Years

There is a considerable doubt, however, about whether Paterno will ever 
coach a full Big Ten schedule.  He has said that he plans to retire when he 
turns 65, after the 1991 season, and Penn State's integration into the con-
ference is expected to take much longer than that.  Although competition in 
some sports could begin next season, football schedules have already been 
completed through the 1992 season and some games have been set for as far 
ahead as 1996.

In basketball and several other sports, Penn State is a member of the Atlan-
tic 10 Conference.

The last school to join the Big Ten was Michigan State, which became a member 
in 1950 but did not participate fully in the conference football program 
until 1953.

For Penn State, which has been struggling to support 28 varsity sports prima-
rily from revenue earned by its football team, joining the Big Ten should 
produce a net financial gain.  For example, although it will have to share 
postseason revenue with its new partners, it will also share in such revenue 
earned by other Big Ten schools.  It will also qualify for the Rose Bowl, the 
most lucrative of the college bowl games.   

In joining what was known as the Western Conference when it was formed in 
Chicago by seven colleges in 1895, Penn State, in State College, Pa., will 
become the league's Eastern outpost, displacing Ohio State about 275 miles to 
the west.  The current members of the Big Ten include Illinois, Michigan, 
Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue and Wisconsin, all charter members, as was 
Chicago, which dropped out in 1946.  The others are Indiana and Iowa, which
joined in 1899; Ohio State which joined in 1912, and Michigan State.

While the conference, which was known as the Big Nine between the withdrawal
of Chicago and the addition of Michigan State, will presumably now be known
as the Big Eleven, the addition of Penn State should not occasion a formal 
name change; the official name is the Intercollegiate Conference of Faculty
Representatives.

>For Penn State, which has been struggling to support 28 varsity sports prima-
>rily from revenue earned by its football team, joining the Big Ten should 
>produce a net financial gain.  For example, although it will have to share 
>postseason revenue with its new partners, it will also share in such revenue 
>earned by other Big Ten schools.  It will also qualify for the Rose Bowl, the 
>most lucrative of the college bowl games.   
    
    
    					Steve

    PSU has a press conference scheduled for today for the announcement.
    
    Dennis
    

    Penn State has been pressuring its Eastern independent football
    partners for the last three years to sign contracts that stipulate 6 of
    10 games must be played at Penn State. This to fuel an ever growing
    money problem in the sports dept. Syracuse ended it's contract this
    year, and the contract with Pitt is up for renewal. Pitt has already
    indicated that 6 games at PSU would not be  acceptable. West Virginia
    who plays in the same Basketball conference would not be asked for this
    type of a deal according to what I have read.
    
    Forget all this stuff about great tradition/school etc as the reason
    for joining the Big 10. PSU is doing it for the money pure and simple. 
    The Eastern Independents were not accepting the deal set forth by PSU
    as a condition to play; PSU was going to loose big revenues.
    
    I'll be interested to go home to PA. for the holidays, and see how some
    of the people who are PSU season ticket holders feel about this. I know
    I'd be pleased to see teams like Alabama, Notre Dame, Texas, and West
    Virginia replaced with Northwestern, Indiana, and Wisconsin.
    
    On the Big 10 side, if I were a Basketball fan from Indiana, or
    Michigan, Penn State on my schedule would certainly enhance my chances
    of moving up in the polls. 
    
    Money talks, and Penn State needs it.
    
     

Is there any talk on somebody leaving the Big Ten?  I read a report
that Northwestern had expressed interest in joining the Ivy League
at one point.

Mike

    
    
      Big10 finaly did it to help its ranking in eastern states.
    
    I now feel that pee st.is a snob school.They do anything for a buck
    and that is overiding decision. I should change my mind about giong
    to Pa.I think that was stupid move by pee st.
    
    
    
    
        jim
    

    Money is a big reason but that's not all.  A big bonus is the acadamic
    association.  There are a lot of academic mutual assistance and cooper-
    ation among Big Ten schools.  The Big Ten is probably the second most
    academically tied conference after the Ivy League.  In this respect, 
    research and development-wise, national recognition wise, wouldn't they 
    want to be with Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Purdue, Indiana, Minnesota 
    and Northwestern, or rather Syracuse, West Virginia, Rutgers, Pitt, B.C.?  
    You tell me.  I am sure this is an association that the Penn State 
    faculty would not mind.
    
    >I'll be interested to go home to PA. for the holidays, and see how some
    >of the people who are PSU season ticket holders feel about this. I know
    >I'd be pleased to see teams like Alabama, Notre Dame, Texas, and West
    >Virginia replaced with Northwestern, Indiana, and Wisconsin.
    
    Notre Dame play a lot of Big Ten schools and has a very good relation
    with the Big Ten, so they can still play ND regularly.  And the Big Ten
    is not just the teams you mentioned.  Even Indiana almost made the Rose 
    Bowl two years ago.  
    
    >On the Big 10 side, if I were a Basketball fan from Indiana, or
    >Michigan, Penn State on my schedule would certainly enhance my chances
    >of moving up in the polls. 
    
    Sure, for the first few years, but hey, a chance to play under the
    national spotlight, TV and all that, how much do you think this will
    help Penn State's own recruiting?  They will probably even have the
    edge in recruiting East Coast players who wants Big Ten play but prefer
    an East Coast school.  Penn State's owen basketball program is already
    on the rise, and joining the Big Ten will only help.  They can be #2 or
    #3 in the Atlantic 10 and they may be bypassed by the NCAA tourney. 
    But with the improved recruitment they can expect, they can become a
    better team and finish #6 in the Big Ten and still have a shot at the
    big one.  
    
    Charles
          

    Re:.20
    On schools leaving the Big Ten:
    
    Northwestern: there has been some rumors about joining the Ivy League
    but it may not be as easy to leave the Big Ten than to join.  North-
    western has been losing money on sports too despite the Big Ten asso-
    ciation, so if they leave it will be financial, hoping to scale down
    their sports program.
    
    Wisconsin: last year (or the year before?) there has been words of
    someone in the Madison state legislature talking about removing the
    school from the Big Ten because they cannot compete.  It may be more of
    a frustration talk than the real thing.  But Wisconsin is quickly ap-
    proaching the Northwestern standard, not academic, sports I mean.
    
    Iowa: I have heard something about giving the boot to Iowa as well. 
    Sports wise they're strong but academic-wise they may be lagging behind
    the rest.
    
    Charles

    My Mom and step-dad are season ticket holders for Penn St. football
    and I'm sure I'll be able to get some feedback on their feelings
    while sitting around the table on Christmas Day. I'll check in then.
    			Raider_Rich
    

       There is NO Big East football conference.
                                  Denny

    
    Simpler reason... 
    
    
    Not as many $$$$$

    I don't know all that much about Penn State sports, however, their
    only other regularly strong men's program is wrestling.  They'll
    give a school like Iowa a run for its money there.  Basketball is
    usually mediocre, they don't have hockey, soccer is weak, baseball
    fluctuates and gymnastics is strong.
    
    I believe their women's programs are stronger top-to-bottom than
    the men's teams.  They are usually very good in field hockey, lacrosse
    and gymnastics.
    
    They have been booted from the Atlantic 10 effective June 30.
    
    John

    PSU was never asked to join the Big East Conference, so they had
    nothing to turn down. In fact, they have nothing to offer the Big East.
     
    PSU, for years, wanted an "all sports" conference in the East. This was
    resisted by some members of the Big East Basketball Conference. A
    football conference was agreeable to the Eastern members, but not to
    PSU. PSU wanted all or nothing, it turned out it was nothing.
    
    As far as the future is concerned, Syracuse ended its football relationship
    with PSU, other Eastern teams have contracts with them for varying lengths 
    of time. Most of the contracts are written with "out clauses", but all
    provide for proper notice (the wimps out I-290 not withstanding).
    Should PSU choose "out" I'm sure that they'll do what they can to
    accomodate the teams on their schedule. 
    
    The PSU fans that I spoke with over the Holidays were laughing at
    PSU joining. They feel that they'll "own" the Rose Bowl. As John Hendry
    stated in another note, their other mens programs are not strong with
    one or two exceptions. Football is king at PSU, and they fully expect 
    to make the annual trek to Pasadena. Sorry guys, but that's how the
    season ticket holders I spoke with feel. 
    
    I also found out that PSU plans to expand the Stadium to 95K.   
    
    Cheer up Big 10 fans, you wanted them, now you have them. You figure
    out how to control them!    
                            

    
    Ha ha ha ha ha! Who wanted them? As Bo said, it's a sham. A couple of
    the BIG-10 presidents railroaded them in. NO BIG-10 AD was contacted
    for input. Northwestern is rumored to be on the verge of being forced
    out. 
    
    PSU "owning" the Rose Bowl. Ha ha ha! Boy are they in for a BIG
    surprise. 
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Hoot, Penn State has proven year after year that they can compete with
    any/all major colleges. They will be a force in the Big Ten.
    
    I don't know about PSU owning anything, but the Pac 10 owns the Rose Bowl
    right now.
    
    JoPS
    
    

    
    And as for Syracuse "dropping" Penn State from their schedule,
    they dropped PS after the Orange wouldn't agree to play 6 out of
    10 games in College Station.  Penn State wouldn't go 50/50, so
    Syracuse "dropped" them.
    
    I personally used to like Paterno and Penn State, but I've grown tired
    of his superior attitude and condescending tone toward most of his old
    traditional rivals.  I hope he gets his head handed to him if and when 
    he ever gets a chance to coach in the Big 10.
    
    NAZZ

    
    RE: The PAC-10 currently owning the Rose Bowl
    
    Do you mean the same PAC-10 (USC) that has lost the last two Rose
    Bowls, soon to be three, even though the PAC-10 team did not have to
    travel? HA! Get real. You can spare me with the last 10-12 year line,
    unless you want to post the previous 10-12. Currently, the BIG-10 owns
    the Rose Bowl.
    
    Paterno will not coach in the BIG-10. Paterno, and his over-hyped ego,
    will be retired before Penn St. plays a BIG-10 schedule. I never said
    Penn St. is not competitive. I will say that if the Penn St. people
    really do think they are going to come in and totally dominate the
    conference every year, they are in for a very big surprise. The have no
    idea what the BIG-10 title means to BIG-10 schools. Playing for the
    conference championship and a Rose Bowl nod is the whole enchilada, not
    playing some other team that is swinging in the breeze because they have
    no chance at a mythical national championship. The BIG-10, or any other
    conference for that matter, champions are REAL. You can't PR or
    schedule your way into it.
    
                                                    HOOT
    

    Hoot, how many times has Michigan or Ohio STate been to the rose bowl,
    and what are their respective records...?
    
    You don't have to answer because I know it pains you to look at those
    miserable won/lost records.
    
    JoJ

    Why such a big deal out of Big 10 football?  They may have tradition
    but so does Penn State.  To think that PSU couldn't step in and
    be competitive in the Big 10 or any other major conference
    doesn't compute. The Rose bowl is unquestionably the big buck
    plum. It has been a long time since many have had anything but a 
    passive interest that bowl. This year's game falls into the same
    category.    
    
    BoB

    Re: a few back ...
    
    Penn State may have a very good men's wrestling program but to think
    for even a split second that they'll do well against Iowa is ludicrous.
    
    Dan Gable is one of the true icons of wrestling and his Hawkeyes are
    year in and year out an awesome crew.
    
    My old high school wrestling coach worshipped the mat that Gable
    sprawled on.   And we had the 3 hour, sweatbox practices to show for
    it, too.  We also had the New Jersey Interscholastic Athletic
    Association's overall state title in 1976.   18-0 with three individual
    state champs.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Bob Hunt has cauliflower ear!!!!!  Film at 11.  :^)
    
    Claybone

    
    
>    RE: The PAC-10 currently owning the Rose Bowl
    
>    Do you mean the same PAC-10 (USC) that has lost the last two Rose
>    Bowls, soon to be three, even though the PAC-10 team did not have to
>    travel? HA! Get real. You can spare me with the last 10-12 year line,
>    unless you want to post the previous 10-12. Currently, the BIG-10 owns
>    the Rose Bowl.
    
    I responded to this in the Big 8 note a while back, but apparently Hoot
    chose to ignore it.  The Big 10 has done *better* in the last 10 Rose 
    Bowls, by actually winning three of them, than in the previous 10 years, 
    when they won only *one* (Ohio State, 1974).  That's 4 out of 20 in the
    last two decades.  In the sixties, the Big 10 won four of ten Rose
    Bowls.  That's 8 out of 30 since 1960.  How far back do you want to go,
    Hoot?  You have to go back to the 50's to find a decade in which the 
    Big 10 dominated their PAC opponents.  It's ludicrous to assert that 
    the Big 10 currently "owns the Rose Bowl" by taking the last two from a 
    conference that has been very weak (by its own standards) throughout 
    the 80's, and yet still has managed to win 7 of the Rose Bowls in the 
    decade from such a powerhouse conference as the Big Ten.  Let's wait 
    for the Big 10 (now 11) to break even over a period of ten years before 
    making such an outrageous claim.
    
    I'm a moderate Penn State fan, and I can say definitively that they will 
    not "dominate" the conference by any means.  However, if they maintain 
    their current standards, I believe they'll win as much as any other 
    team, including Michigan, in the Big 11.  They're not going to be
    "taught a lesson" because Penn State, believe it or not, has included
    teams like Notre Dame, Miami, Nebraska, Alabama, Texas, and Ohio State
    on its regular-season schedule throughout the 80's and still come away 
    with *two* national championships (the Big 10 has not had a champ since 
    1968), and has one of the best all-time bowl records in history, foreign 
    territory for Big 10 teams.  Has Penn State been allowed to call its own 
    shots even in the bowls, selecting patsy opponents?  No. Playing Michigan 
    and whoever else happens to be strong from year to year in the Big 11 is 
    not going to increase Penn State's normal level of competition that much, 
    unless of course they keep rivals like Pitt and Notre Dame on the 
    schedule to boot.  
    
    With that said, I will agree that Penn State has recently charted a
    course influenced by money and the "education-minded" Joe Paterno has
    gone along with it at full tilt.  I don't agree with the blackmail
    strategies used against Syracuse and some other eastern schools, and
    I'm not sold on the Big 10 alliance.  But in the end, I'm sure the 
    course Penn State has taken certainly will not be counter-productive 
    to a winning football program.  To the contrary, the rich get richer,
    and the program will probably only get stronger.
    
    glenn

    Thanks for posting those stats Glenn...I'm sure it popped off the
    screen and smacked Hoot right in the face when he read it. He hasn't
    responded because he's still lying on the floor in the face of reality.
    
    JoJ

    
    Wrong, JoJ. 8 out of the last 30? I don't believe it. Do you have a
    Rose Bowl record? What is ludicrus is claiming a conference "owns" a
    Bowl game when they have lost the last two, even though it was basicly
    a home game. What you and your buddy also fail to point out is that the
    BIG-10's 2 through 5th or 6th place teams usually are facing other
    conference champs or top independents. They don't duck competition.
    They are currently 1-0, MSU destroyed Hawaii (2nd place WAC, MSU was
    4th BIG-10, I believe) @ Hawaii I might add. Illinois (2nd) should beat
    Virginia (1st) handily. Ohio St. (3rd) will have too much offense for
    Auburn (2nd). Both games are alot closer to the southern teams' homes
    than the BIG-10 teams'. Michigan is the only team that is not playing a
    team that finished higher in their respective conferences than the
    BIG-10 team. The facts are that other than the Rose Bowl the BIG-10
    teams play teams that finished higher in their conferences year in and
    year out and usually in the opposing teams' back yard. Regardless of
    these disadvantages, they do very well.
    
                                                    HOOT
      

    Hoot, Hoot, Hoot,
    
     are we just a bit touchy on the subject of the Big 10,  Everyone
    knows that it is the weakest conference in the nation.  Relax big 
    guy,  it's only a movie.
    
    Big Game

    
    Not at all Jack. I'm just standing up for truth, justice and the
    American way, squashing half-truths, misrepresentations and slanders
    along that straight and narrow path.

    PPPPPPPPUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE   !!!
    
     Give me a break HOOT !  I can't take much more of that
    trash thats spewing from your finger-tips.
    
    Big Game
    
    P.S.  Ohio St. stinks.  They haven't had a good team since Woody
         cracked that kid on the side-lines.  I swear,  that had to be 
         the one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

    Hoot, the record of Big Ten versus WAC teams isn't something I'd brag
    about.
    
    
    Plus, your "facks" are all predictions. What your saying is like saying
    the NL hasn't dominated the All Star game for the last 20 years because
    they lost 2 of the last 3....
    
    Hoot, get a grip, you make no sense. 8-22 is a respectable rose bowl
    record....BTW - Has Bo ever won a Rose Bowl? (hint: NO).
    
    Face it Hoot, in the last 20 years the Pac 10 had kicked ass in the
    Rose Bowl.
    
    Michigan should win this year, but with Bo's past performance, I doubt
    it.
    
    JoJ

    JoJ,
    
     You Shoulda asked him when the last time Ohio St. went to the
    Rose Bowl was....
    
    Big Game

    
    Your ignorance is glaring through once again JoJ. Michigan beat USC
    last year in the Rose Bowl. Go make up some more "facks", you certainly
    don't know the "facts".

    
    Is this the same Hoot who has been heralding Raider "history" over the
    recent Bronco mini-successes?  Two Rose Bowl victories in a row and two
    decades of dominance are erased?
    
    I'm not here on some kind of personal vendetta against the Big 10, and
    never claimed that top to bottom they have had universally poor bowl 
    teams, although historically they haven't done that well, either (see
    below).  You asked that the Big 10 record in the previous 10-12 Rose 
    Bowls be posted, and I responded.  Apparently you didn't like the 
    answer.  Since your original note was concerned with the Rose Bowl, and 
    Penn State's future pursuit of that "enchilada", as you put it, I dealt 
    with the subject at hand, which is can Penn State do any better than
    the current Big 10 members have.  If you wish to discuss the Aloha Bowl 
    and WAC runners-up, so be it.  Penn State can beat those teams, too. But
    the fact remains that the Big 10 has performed more poorly in the bowl 
    involving their supposed champion than any other conference, and those 
    *are* the games people remember.  (Yes, I know it's a home game for 
    the PAC-10, but it ain't been just California teams beating the Big 10 
    there.  And a .200 winning percentage in the last 20 years?)  It's 
    also true that no Big 10 team has matched Penn State's record in 
    New Years' Day bowls or overall bowls, including the minors.
    
    Who are you suggesting has "ducked the competition"?  I agree that
    the Big 10 hasn't, although they've been plowed under by it, but 
    exactly what conference or what team has been doing this in bowl 
    competition?  Who has ridden this infamous PR machine to all those 
    mythical national championships (as opposed to the true Big 10 
    championship)?  Are you suggesting Penn State?  Penn State has met 
    eventual champ Alabama (Sugar), undefeated Georgia (Sugar), eventual 
    champ Oklahoma (Orange), and previously #1 Miami (Fiesta) in 
    National Championship games in the last 15 years.  They won two, and 
    lost two.  But they certainly haven't ducked, PR'd or otherwise cajoled 
    themselves into anything.  Their championship teams have played the 
    best available team at any bowl, which has generally been the case with 
    the national champs of the recent past.  This is one of the sacrifices 
    that Penn State is making by surrendering their independence and some 
    flexibility at bowl time.  Usually a team which is not the current #1
    team at the end of the year *wants* to meet the best team available, in
    order to improve their chances of moving up.  Penn State won't
    necessarily be able to do this anymore.      
    
    Anyway, for the record, here is the Big 10 scorecard in major bowls 
    (I neglected to count Purdue's Rose Bowl win in 1967, so make the Big 
    10 record *9* of the last 30).  I didn't include WAC champ BYU's 
    "National Championship" Holiday Bowl in 1984.  ;-)
    
    
    			ROSE BOWL
    
     		Winner		Loser
    
    1989      *	Michigan	USC
    1988      *	Mich St.	USC
    1987	Ariz St.	Michigan
    1986	UCLA		Iowa
    1985	USC		Ohio St.
    1984	UCLA		Illinois
    1983	UCLA		Michigan
    1982	Washington	Iowa
    1981      *	Michigan	Washington
    1980	USC		Ohio State
    1979	USC		Michigan
    1978	Washington	Michigan
    1977	USC		Michigan
    1976	UCLA		Ohio State
    1975	USC		Ohio State
    1974      *	Ohio State	USC
    1973	USC		Ohio State
    1972	Stanford	Michigan
    1971	Stanford	Ohio State
    1970	USC		Michigan
    1969      *	Ohio State	USC
    1968	USC		Indiana
    1967      *	Purdue		USC
    1966	UCLA 		Mich St.
    1965      *	Michigan	Oregon St.
    1964      *	Illinois	Washington
    1963	USC		Wisconson
    1962      *	Minnesota	UCLA
    1961	Washington	Minnesota
    1960	Washington	Wisconsin
    
    * denotes Big 10 win	
    
    		OTHER MAJORS (4-4 over last 20 years):
    
    			Winner		Loser
    
    1977 Orange	      *	Ohio State	Colorado
    1976 Orange		Oklahoma	Michigan
    
    1984 Sugar		Auburn		Michigan
    1978 Sugar		Alabama		Ohio State
    
    1987 Cotton	      *	Ohio State	Texas A&M
    
    1986 Fiesta	      *	Michigan	Nebraska
    1984 Fiesta	      *	Ohio State	Pitt
    1980 Fiesta         Penn State	Ohio State
    
    
    
    glenn
    

>    PSU "owning" the Rose Bowl. Ha ha ha! Boy are they in for a BIG
>    surprise. 
 
I find it VERY likely.  Joining the Big 10 can only enhance their
ability to recruit.  If Paterno stays 10 more years and keeps his
wits about him, I'd predict 6 to 8 Rose Bowl appearances for
Penn St.

BTW, can anyone tell me if there is anything to being in the
Big 10 other than sports allegiences?  For intstance, are 
there any academic advantages?  Can a student at one
Big 10 school take a semester (or just a class if the schools
are close enough) at another, etc?

Dan

    
    That's a question I've been asking myself, Dan.  We've been reading
    that Penn State's academic philosophies, etc., align very nicely with 
    the Big 10's, but if pretty much all they do is play sports together, 
    who cares?  Can Joe Student gain anything out of this or is it just
    for the money?
    
    glenn
    

    Gee Hoot, your right, the Big 10 has been absolutely awesome in the
    Rose Bowl...ha ha ha ha, why are you even arguing the point that the
    PAC 10 owns the Rose Bowl?
    
    ha ha ha

    Anyone see the Mazda (ralff!)  Bowl last night?  Great game that
    wasn't decided until the last series by BYU.  The final was 50-39
    (at least it was with <1minute).
    
    BYU scored to make it 41-39 with about 2.5 minutes when they elected
    to go for 2.  Penn State intercepted the conversion attempt and
    ran it back for 2 points to make it 43-39.
    
    BYU was pushing toward a game winning score when PSU stripped Ty
    of the ball and ran it in for a TD.
    
    Ty passed for 550 yards (45-60?).  Blair Thomas had nearly 200 yards
    rushing.  Wow!
    
    Mark.
    

    
    Hail to the Trojans! Bo 2-8 in Rose Bowls hahaaa....
    
    couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy. I'll bet Bo figured
    we beat USC, I retire, they got give me the National Championship...
    
    wrong Bo Wrong....
    
    mike

    Hey Hoot...how'd the Big Ten do yesterday in Bowl games? 
    
    Don't tell me, I already know...ha ha ha
    
    Yet another Rose Bowl win for the Pac 10. Like you indicated, Hootsie,
    you're only as good as your last game. Therefore, the Pac 10 owns the
    Rose Bowl. You were right.
    
    Oh, didn't Ohio State also lose?
    
    JoJ

    
    It was sad but perhaps fitting that Bo did not exit into the night
    gently, but rather with an ugly show of poor sportsmanship that would
    have made his one-time contemporary, Woody Hayes, proud.  Yes, Michigan
    was victimized by a questionable call, but instead of maintaining his
    composure and getting his head back into the game (as any good player
    is taught), Bo self-destructed and then looked on as his team did the
    same.  The fact remains that his talented but under-utilized team was 
    once again outplayed by USC in the Rose Bowl.  In spite of an enormous 
    offensive line up front and talented wide-outs, Michigan's offense was
    simply offensive, as they've been pretty much all year.  Bo's strategy
    is to score 10-14 points, wear the opponent down, and run the clock
    out.  Unfortunately, in the big games it's not enough.
    
    However, overall the Big 10 did pretty well in the bowls.  Michigan
    State and Illinois posted impressive victories, and Ohio State played
    a very good Auburn team much tougher than I thought they would.  If
    Ohio State and Michigan traded offenses, they might have a national
    champion.
    
    Here's how I'd rank the conferences based on regular season and bowl
    outcomes:
    
    1. Indies 	(Miami, Florida St, Notre Dame)
    2. SEC
    3. Big 10
    4. PAC 10
    5. Big 8
    6. ACC
    7. SWC
    
    glenn
     

    re: -1
    
    Any opinions on that tribute that Keith "Hoss" Jackson gave Bo near
    the end of the game. It seemed phony at the time and was immediatley
    repudiated minutes later.

         Keith emphasized how Bo never dodged an interview,and then he
    runs away from ABC's interviewer like a spoiled kid after the game.What
    did Bo think,that the refs were going to give Michigan the game?

    
    and he goes out whinning complaining that " it was the worst call of
    his entire life in his last game. it was a pac-10 official that called
    it same stuff happens all the time out here."
    
    what is it about the big ten coaches that they all must cry and whine
    like babies?  Woody, Bo in football, Keady, Knight in basketball???
    
    ;^)
    
    mike 

    The Big Ten should be thankful that PSU is gonna join the conference.
    It'll give them a team that can win Bowl games.

	re .56

	There are academic aspects to conference membership.  I don't 
	know the details, but it include things like credit transfer, 
	visiting professors, cooperative research, etc.  I suppose
	whether or not these are advantages would depend on which school
	you attend.  

	However, I think this move is strictly sports-related.  Penn State
	gets a conference affiliation which they need, both monetarily and
	for recruiting, and the Big Ten probably enhances its power within
	the NCAA.  As an added bonus, the Big Ten is protected in case a
	school like Northwestern decides at some point in the future to drop
	out.

tom

    Re:.-1
    There is an academic alliance whose name escapes me now consisting of
    the 10 Big Ten schools and the University of Chicago, a former Big Ten
    member, into which Penn State will gain entrance and enjoy all the
    privileges and goodies shared by the 11 (to be 12) schools for their
    academic missions and research.
    
    Can you say this for the Big East?  Or ACC, SEC, SWC, Big Eight,
    whatever.  I can't think of any other athletic conference having such
    academic cooperation other than the Pac 10 and the Ivy League (which is
    not an athletic conference).
    
    Charles

Many conferences have academic relations, alliances, etc.

The ACC has a particularly strong "alliance" with the Research Triangle
Park: Duke, NC State, UNC-Chapel Hill. In fact, on the matter of
academics, the ACC more than holds its own.

TTom

I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet but it was reported that one of the
main reasons that the Pitt coach (forgot his name already) was let go was the
very poor academic/athletic relationship at Pitt could spoil any chance of
getting into the Big 10/11.  The new coach Paul Hackett is even the son of a
college Biochem professor.

If the conference goes to 12 then Pitt would be a logical choice.  Having an
odd number of schools makes tournaments tough.

    Don't be so quick to jump on this academic thing.  I was not even
    claiming the Big Ten or Eleven or whatever is better, and I was
    certainly not trying to reopen this old rathole.                 
    
    All I was saying was the kind of formal, intercollegiate academic
    close alliance is unique to the Big Ten plus the University of Chicago
    (and soon Penn State).  The Big Ten can each be lousy school but but I
    am just saying that the formal academic alliance is very unique.  For
    all I care there are ACC (or some other conference) schools better than
    some Big Ten schools or at least in some area, and of course for some
    others the other way around, and there is nothing wrong with all that.
    
    You do not have to tell me how good Virginia's Law is or North
    Carolina's Liberal Arts is etc. etc.  I have no doubt.  
    
    And I am also aware that Duke, N.C. State and North Carolina has very
    close ties to the RTC, but this kind of tie has nothing to do with the
    ACC in all.  How much do Georgia Tech or Clemson have to do with this
    strong "alliance" between those three N.C. schools and the RTC?  This
    is where the difference is.  As far as I know there is no formal
    intercollegiate academic alliance involving *all* (could be more) the
    ACC schools.  The Big Ten as a conference is more conscious on their 
    academic cooperation for all the members (current and former), while 
    this can hardly be said for most other conferences unless someone can 
    enlighten me (which I always welcome since we all can use some good 
    news on college academics).  This does not take anything away from 
    the individual reputation and quality of the individual schools in 
    those "other" conferences.  
    
    Charles
    

Also the Big Ten has a non-alliance, just ask Jeff George. That is when a
player goes from say Purdue to Illinois, he can't get a scholarship at
Illinois.

In the keeping with the spirit of this discussion, I'm not saying if
that's good or bad.

TTom

    The Jeff George situation is good in that it prevents a lot of players
    jumping school within the conference which can create a lot of bad will
    between the institutions.  Now if someone jumps like Jeff George (of
    course he first transferred to Miami for one semester than transferred
    again to Illinois) he must pay his own way, so Purdue has one thing
    less to blame Illinois for "recruiting."
    
    I don't know what this has to do with a research alliance between the 
    11 schools.
    
    Charles

    We're talking football here, not academics. Everyone knows that the two
    are not related, especially in major conferences.
    
    JoJ

    I'm talking about the advantages for Penn State to join the Big Ten,
    including athletically, academically and financially.
    
    Charles

    The President of Purdue, Steven Beering, was reprimanded by a
    resolution in the Purdue University Senate (a faculty, student body)
    for not informing the faculty and consulting their opinions about
    inviting Penn State to join the Big Ten, although members of the Senate
    in general expressed that they did not mind Penn State joining, but 
    only had reservations about how it was handled by the President.
    
    I wonder if similar complaints or actions have been taken in the other
    Big Ten schools, or even Penn State itself.
    
    Charles

    
    	question:
    
    	Since Penn is outta the Atlatic 10, are the Miami Huricanes
    going to be leaving independent to enter the conference??   I remember
    hearing something about the basketball team would start next season
    in the A10 since Penn State would be leaving.
    
    sean

There was some talk of Miami, Florida St, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse and a
couple of more to make a Football Conference. Sortof the Eastern
independent league. 

TTom

    I don't know if Penn State is out of the A10 yet.  The A10 wants to
    kick them out, but I don't think that's finalized.  They sure would
    like a replacement in Miami.  Penn State apparently will not be playing
    in Big Ten basketball for a couple of years.  If the Big Ten is to
    continue playing the round robin format that will add another two games
    to each team's schedule to make the season even longer.  This may help
    the arguments for the proponents of a Big Ten tournament.  I hate to
    see the round-robin gone.
    
    As for the Eastern football conference, I have read somewhere that
    there are a lot of problems in getting them together, I forgot the
    specifics.  I think some wants more of an all-sports conference, while
    some wants a football only conference.  It will affect the Big East
    almost certainly in some ways.
    
    Charles
    

    I saw in the paper yesterday that the ACC and Miami are talking.  Just
    what the ACC needs, another school with that will dominate football and
    be a patsy in basketball.  
    
    	--dan'l

All is not peaches and cream in the Big 10 over the possibility of adding
Penn State. Reportedly, some coaches and athletic directors are going to
oppose the move. The offer, which is tentative according to commish Jim
Delany, will be reviewed.

TTom

More dissent, and an apparent break in the ranks between T and Bobby
Knight:

	"I've been to Penn State and Penn State's a camping trip. There's
	nothing for about 100 miles."

	Bobby Knight, who reportedly is one of the coaches opposed to
	Penn State joining the Big 10.

TTom

    Actually, Bobby Knight is 100% correct.   
    
    Penn State is in the middle of absolutely nowhere.   The state of
    Pennsylvania's shape is basically rectangular and legend has it
    that they drew diagonals on the state map and where they crossed
    in the middle was where Penn State was built.    Pure wilderness.
    
    That's one of the major reasons that Joe Paterno has stayed at
    Penn State for so long.  He lords over an isolated kingdom.   A
    "big city" reporter has a very long way to go to get to him.   So,
    he's basically untouched.
    
    So here we have The General complaining about Penn State's remote
    location.   Why isn't he applauding their commitment to honest
    competition ???   Why isn't he saluting their athlete's high
    graduation rates ???   What about Penn State's academic
    compatibilities to the rest of the Big Ten schools, Indiana
    included ???
    
    Or is The General just ticked off that State College, PA ain't
    exactly a major cosmopolitan urban location ???   Or maybe he's
    ticked off because this is mostly a football move ???   You would
    think that he'd relish the chance for two more wins per year until
    the Nittany Lions bring their hoops squad up to Big Ten levels.
    
    Or maybe he thinks it's Norfolk ???   Nah, couldn't be ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    As I type this in, I am sitting in scenic State College, PA and
    listening to a radio sports talk show. I commute by car to this garden
    spot every week (4 hours from the Philadelphia area), but it's less
    than an hour from Pittsburgh of Phiily by commuter plane. According to
    the folks on the radio (who just might be biased ;*) )that any team
    from any sports program in the Big 10, except football, can flu into
    the University Park airport and be on campus in less than 10 minutes.
    Contrast that to getting to some of the other "big time" schools. The
    example I've heard is Alabama, which is about 1 hour from the airport
    so I'm told. I don't see Bobby Knight's point.
    
    And what the h*ll is close to Bloomington.
    
    Dennis
    

    
    They feel that the addition of Penn State won't "enhance" the
    conference. They also expressed a concern that PSU would need to raise
    its academic level for scholarships from a 1.5 GPA to a 2.0. Also,
    Bobby Knight doesn't like where it's located.
    
    Dennis
    

    No one except native Pennsylvanians likes where Penn State is located.
    
    John

    re:-1
    
    Some native Pennsylvanians aren't real thrilled with where it is
    either. ;*)
    
    But even with its location, it really isn't that hard to get to. I have
    heard that some of the "minor" sports travel by bus and that is one 
    of the causes for concern. If that's the case, I guess that for
    Minnesota it would be about a 10 hr bus ride to Happy Valley. But it's
    only about four or 5 hours from Ohio State. What's a few more hours in
    the bus.
    
    On the whole, I think the Big 10 has handled the entire episode poorly.
    If you want Penn State in the Big 10, you invite them and if they
    accept, then they are in. This "tentative"invitation BS is nuts, and it
    makes everyone involved look foolish.
    
    Dennis
    

>    Riding a bus, from Minneapolis' West Bank to Chicago is about 7-8
>   hours.  From there, I'd estimate another 8 hours to College Station
>    for a total bus ride of 15-16 hours.
    
    Bob Hunt was right all along, T.  You don't know your geography.  I'd
    say Texas A&M is slightly farther from Minneapolis than 15-16 hours. 8-}
    
    	--dan'l

  
>>    Bob Hunt was right all along, T.  You don't know your geography.  I'd
>>    say Texas A&M is slightly farther from Minneapolis than 15-16 hours. 8-}
    
>>    	--dan'l
  
    
    Not if Chainsaw's at the wheel!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

    >Well, mebbe also Michigan is scared shirtless that finally somebody's
    >gonna come along and teach them that recruiting and wasting all those
    >studs from Ohio and then choking annually on national TV ain't gonna
    >cut it no more.

I mostly agree with this sentiment.  Despite the success of the basketball
conference, most of the nation perceives the Big 10 to be first and
foremost (sportswise, that is) a football conference, and that's what's
looked to first in so many ways, mostly money.  The Big 10 has a long 
established food chain within their small pond, and I'd guess fears
that a Penn St. shouldn't just be allowed to waltz in and immediately
become the big fish.  And they won't have much resistence doing it.

As for the transportation costs, they are probably a drop in the bucket
next to all the TV money the conference rakes in, mostly again from
all those fall Saturdays.  And now that the N.D. greed marketing team
has opened further floodgates look for the MSU's and OSU's to cash in
with renewed lust, bringing the rest of the conference with them.  Each
school could operate their own fleet and yawn over the expenses.

Dan

    	Interesting article on the Big 10 - Penn State episode in SI.
    Looks like now it is only a 50-50 chance that they will enter.
    I don't have the article with me but some of the points discussed
    were:
    
    -	Penn State being so far from the rest of the Big 10.
    
    	Bob Knight's biggest problem.  There's no airport around there.
    	Smaller sports like wrestling/track and field would have to
    	miss 3 dys of school to go out there.
    
    	Solution:  Schedules are pretty much set into 1994 (?).  Do
    	not have to do round robin (every big 10 team doesn't have to
    	play Penn St every year).  Addition of 12th team (making it
    	the Big 12) in the Eastern area (Syracuse) could make a "block"
    	trip more advantageous.
    
    	I think they said the farthest points between the Big 10 and
    	Penn St. would be roughly 1300 miles.  This isn't the furthest
    	distance in a conference.  The University of Arizona and the
    	University of Washington are 1500+ miles apart.
    
     	I'd like to see Penn State AND another eastern team enter the
    	Big Ten (Syracuse would be a great addition: basketball, football
    	and lacrosse are great teams).  
    
    sean

    There is no great lacross tradition in the Big Ten though, or is there?

    No lacrosse tradition there that I know of.
    
    John

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (BRETT CHASE)
Subject: Big Ten approves Penn State membership
Date: 4 Jun 90 20:45:53 GMT
 
	IOWA CITY, Iowa (UPI) -- Big Ten presidents formally accepted Penn
State into the athletic conference on Monday, then imposed a four-year
moratorium on expansion to a 12th school.
	The presidents, known as the Council of 10, tentatively had invited
Penn State to join the conference earlier this year but delayed a final
decision, handing over consideration of the expansion to a special
committee.
	Resistance among league athletic directors reportedly was building,
putting the invitation in doubt.
	But University of Illinois President Stanley Ikenberry, speaking
for the other presidents, said at a news conference that the Big Ten
``welcomes Penn State'' to the league.
	``As the newest member of the Big Ten family, we want Penn State to
experience a transition that conveys the sense of congeniality and
fellowship the Big Ten typifies,'' Ikenberry said in a statement.
	``We welcome Penn State, its administrators, its faculty, its
student body and its loyal alumni to a partnership dedicated to the
advancement of higher education and committed to quality athletics
consistent with the teaching and research missions of our
universities.''
	Ikenberry said a decision on a name change will be made within 60
days. The university presidents discussed some possible labels, but
Ikenberry would not reveal them.
	Ikenberry said said the Penn State decision required approval from
seven of the 10 schools, but refused to reveal the exact vote. The vote
reportedly was not unanimous.
	But Ikenberry did say the Big Ten presidents were unanimous in
their desire to end conference expansion with Penn State, at least for
now.
	The presidents decided to impose a four-year moratorium on adding
more schools, but the moratorium can be overturned with a vote of eight
of the 11 institutions.
	The Penn State expansion had opened speculation that another school
would be admitted to balance the league at 12 institutions and create
divisional play. But the Council of 10 squelched that talk.
	Ikenberry said there was no consensus on the long-term implications
of further expansion and divisional play and what that expansion would
mean to the league's ``character.''
	``We have therefore declared a moratorium on the consideration of
bringing additional institutions into the conference,'' Ikenberry said.
``In our judgment, there needs to be a great deal more thought given
before we proceed with further expansion, including a question of
whether we really want to move toward divisional play.''
	Syracuse, Rutgers, Pittsburgh and West Virginia had been mentioned
as possible Big Ten invitees.
	The Big Ten was founded in 1896 as the Western Conference. Its last
expansion was in 1948, when Michigan State was added to the Big Nine
Conference.
	Supporters of the Penn State expansion argued it would solidify the
league's football and basketball dominance over television markets and
add a prestigious university to the stable of Big Ten schools. Backers
also argued the addition of two other universities would set the stage
for a lucrative postseason basketball tournament.
	Detractors complained the tentative invitation to Penn State was
rushed through with little research into its ramifications. Athletic
directors worried about the cost of making travel connections to Penn
State, which is located in central Pennsylvania and is not readily
accessible by air.
	Full participation in the Big Ten by Penn State will take several
years. Commissioner James Delany said Penn State could take part in
single-event championships in the next two to three years, meaning the
first integration of Nittany Lion teams will come in sports such as
wrestling and tennis that make schedules from year to year.
	Full participation in major sports with long-term schedules will
take until the mid-1990s, Delany said, with basketball integrated
possibly by 1994 and football in 1995.
	Asked about the awkwardness of an 11-member conference, Delany said
stranger things are possible.
	``If the Berlin Wall can come down, I guess the Big Ten can have 11
members,'' Delany said.

Subject: Penn State looks forward to Big Ten play
Date: 5 Jun 90 22:17:12 GMT 
 
	UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. (UPI) -- Penn State's entry into the Big Ten
may mark the beginning of a trend of expanding sports conferences
throughout the nation, the school's athletic director said Tuesday.
	``I think that this move by Penn State into the Big Ten might be a
move that could change the face of intercollegiate sports in the next
decade and the next century,'' Jim Tarman said during a news conference
with Nittany Lions football coach Joe Paterno.
	Without naming any specific conferences or other schools, Tarman
said he sees more consolidation on the way as competition increases for
television time and the money that it brings to college and university
sports programs.
	``Two of the three (Big Ten) transition committees that worked on
this (Penn State's induction) have recommended a 12th school,'' Tarman
said, adding that as far as he could tell the committees still want a
dozen teams in the conference.
	The Big Ten presidents, known as the Council of 10, officially
accepted Penn State into the exclusive club on Monday but have imposed a
four-year moratorium on further expansion, apparently in response to
criticism that the decision was rushed.
	Three presidents -- James Duderstadt of Michigan, John DiBiaggio of
Michigan State and Thomas Ehrlich of Indiana -- voted against the Penn
State addition, saying their views were bypassed in making the decision.
	Ehrlich said no one has convinced him the expansion was necessary.
	Although the presidents voted unanimously to impose the four-year
moratorium on adding more schools, that moratorium can be overturned
with a vote of eight of the 11 institutions.
	The Big Ten, which was founded in 1896 as the Western Conference,
was last expanded in 1948, when Michigan State was added to the Big Nine
Conference.
	Named in the recent expansion speculation after Penn State were
Syracuse, Rutgers, Pittsburgh and West Virginia. Football independents
Rutgers and West Virginia are in the Atlantic 10 for basketball and
Syracuse and Pittsburgh are Big East members.
	Although Big Ten commissioner Jim Delaney said Monday that
televison contracts would prevent Penn State from playing Big Ten
football and basketball until 1995, Paterno said he hopes to be begin
Big Ten ball a little sooner.
	``I think our first job right now is to contact the athletic
directors of the Big Ten and find out when they might be able to
accommodate us in a game,'' Paterno said.
	Paterno noted that the Big Ten currently plays an eight-game
season, which presents a slight problem for him since he would like to
maintain Penn State's current seven-game home season.
	Paterno said he would like to include three non-conference games in
the schedule, and named rivals like the University of Miami and Notre
Dame as candidates for those slots.
	Tarman said that while the Penn State football team is not
committed to a league season next year -- it is an independent -- 21 other
varsity sports are members of the Atlantic 10 Conference and already
have their hands tied for the 1990-91 season.
	Tarman said that under Big Ten rules, Penn State teams without
long-term television contracts can begin regular league play 12 months
after notifying the league of their intentions.
	``We may have to take a whole new look at our priorites so that we
may be competitive in the Big Ten,'' Tarman said, adding that the school
may pump more money into sports like women's basketball that have not
received much attention in the past but may be larger revenue producers
for the school in Big Ten play.

    "Character."
    
    Yes, Penn State *will* enhance our fine conference's already
    unparalleled character. 
    
    Congrats to Penn State.  Congrats to the Big10.  But most of all,
    congrats to us.
    
    Class gravitates to class as if gold-plated silver-tipped magnets.     
    The rich get richer.  The hip get hipper.  The beautiful girl always
    gets the big buck corn-fed valedictorian QB.  Creme de la crem.
    
    Voila.
    
    Big10 Tom

	This explains why BTT's wife is short, overweight, and has that
	big wart on her nose.


	Did I Say that ?  I don't usually left my first thoughts slip out
	like that.

    Hey Rollins.  You make fun a people's families as a matter of practice?
    
    If you'd like to continue that practice fly on out and do it face-to-
    face.  The office here is right by the airport.
    
    MrT

I can't picture MrT settling for anyone less than a Kim Basinger clone
whose daddy owns IU season tickets and who can drink any man under the
table.

     Well, I wouldn't normally draw any conclusions about the family
     of anyone in here, but I have heard conference members describe other
     conference members, including T.  Then I read these words and made
     what I thought was a logical conclusion.

>    Class gravitates to class as if gold-plated silver-tipped magnets.     
>    The rich get richer.  The hip get hipper.  The beautiful girl always
>    gets the big buck corn-fed valedictorian QB.  Creme de la crem.
    
     I thought you were a reasonably low paid, armchair quarterback.  My
     apologies to your wife.  (By the way, with all that money, do you
     make personal loadns?)

    No prob Rolly.  Btw, down buy that jive bull from WardleVane.  He's
    not to be trusted.
    
    On the topic, the media are constrained by their sense of phony
    objectivity from speculating on what Penn State's choice of the 
    Big10 over the Almost Close and Big Least meant.  Not so constrained,
    we're free to say that Penn State's choice made a clear statement to 
    the nation that the Big10 is superior to those other two neighboring 
    conferences.  In fack, from a travel standpoint the two lesser leagues 
    are actually more proximate that the Big10.  But they went the extra mile 
    for that extra quality.
    
    True, if the Pac10 weren't so far away the Big10 woulda had some
    serious competition wooing Penn State.  But, lucky for our great 
    conference, they were 2,000 miles away.
    
    There's a contest on to rename the coference.  Any takers?  Here's my
    shot:
    
    			The Big Best
    			The Big Great
    			The Big Quality
    			The Big Class
    			The Big Shots
    			The Big Ots
    			The Big Central
    			The Continental Conference
    
    Big11 Tom

    I don't think there's a conference out there with a memorial-style
    name, but if those craven idolaters in Carolina cain get away with
    it, why not a_entire region:
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    				The Big Bob
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Whaddya think?  Purty, huh?  And compelling, too.  And emblematic
    of all the principles for which it stands.
    
    BigBob Tom

    Much more appropriate (and accurate):
    
    The Big Money-Grabbers.
    
    
    (BTW - To disagree is to completely fail to understand what the recent
     spat of conference growth is all about.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

>    Not so constrained,
>    we're free to say that Penn State's choice made a clear statement to 
>    the nation that the Big10 is superior to those other two neighboring 
>    conferences.
    
    Right.  I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that the Big Beast
    and Atlantic Ton have no formal football conference.  Don't kid
    yourself.  It was for the dollars, not the donuts.
    
    	--dan'l

    >To disagree is to completely fail
    
    Does this mean that the hapless Reverend is a disagreeable sort?  
    
    No, *you've* completely failed to get the point.  Nobody'd bother
    to deny that the Penn State move is a TV market grab, pure and simple.
    The Big10 has been suffering from undercoverage in terms of national
    coverage, especially hoops (where two years ago it garnered only half
    the coverage of the Big Least and Almost Close).  To get into Penn
    State is to grab a foothold in the world's largest television market,
    which not only spells dollars, btw, but recruiting.  We should do well
    in the football-starved NorthEastCorridor.
    
    Yeah, you got that part ACC Crisp, Practicing Hypocrite.  But what you
    got wrong was that this marriage made in heaven is necessarily craven
    and wrong.  First, the Big10 had no choice.  Second, Penn State was
    looking for a safe haven, needing on one hand to get into a big-time
    conference and on the other to avoid compromising its well known 
    academic principles.  It filled both of those needs.  Third, the Big10
    is left no choice in the face of unfair competition from the likes of 
    the Big8, SWAC, Almost Close, SEC and others.  
    
    It was a preemptive strike to pluck one of the best plums that'll ever
    be available (Notre Dame's the best, fer sure).  Now, at last, the
    Big10 will have East coast TV numbers which will make them a compelling
    TV partner when added to their Midwest demographics.  
    
    But you obfuscate, ACConfessed.  Hail, it's not like they went out and
    recruited Clemson or anything like that.
    
    re .111
    
    I was under the impression that the Almost Close operated a conference
    gridiron schedule.  Am I wrong on this?
    
    Btw, the contest to which I referred chose Great Lakes Conference by
    a wide margin.  I like The Big Bob better, but remember that only half
    of we Midwesterners are Bob fans...
    
    Big11 Tom  

    Almost Close I assume means Atlantic Coast.  Sorry.  I first read it in
    the same breath as Big East and it somehow got translated in my Monday
    morning brain as Atlantic 10.  
    
    	--dan'l

>    ...  Nobody'd bother
>    to deny that the Penn State move is a TV market grab, pure and simple.

Similarly, the Big10 move is for the same bucks. 

TTom

    MrT.,  It's obvious to any college sports fan that the ACC does
    have a football conference, but that it is not a 'power' conference,
    floating in money, like the Big10 is.   Clemson, for the most part,
    is the only ACC team that is usually nationally ranked, though Maryland
    used to be and UNC and others have sometimes made an appearance.
    
    Penn State went for the bucks.  THe thought of making the Rose Bowl
    and it's mega-bucks surely aided in the decision, especially when
    Mssr. Paterno realized the calibre of head coaching that the big10
    gridiron has.  
    JD

While I will concede that the ACC is not a power in football, it still
does alright with making money supporting that sport, at least during the
regular season. Even Tar Heel football games sell out.

Now, in terms of post season money, it still doesn't do that bad. No Rose
Bowl - the ultimate statement of the commitment to money by the Big10 and
PAC10 - but last year, for instance, 4 teams went to bowls.

But in any case, since we're talking money here, the ACC does a good job
of getting the almighty football dollar.

TTom

    
    JD, 
    You are way out in left field on your coaching comment. For one thing
    it is very doubtful that Paterno will still be coaching when they get
    into a full BIG-10 schedule. From what I have seen, that won't happen
    until about 1996. I won't bother going into BIG-10 football coaches
    credentials, they are too long.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Yeah, and you're also out a date, JD:
    
    	- Bo Schembechler, thank Gawd Almighty!, has retired and is
          no longer in position to embarrass us
    
    	- Perenniel cupcakes such as Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, and State
    	  have fashioned themselves into quality programs over the past
    	  5-10 years, thus ending forever the justified "Big 2/Little 8"
    	  catcall
    	
    	- Cooper has Ohio State back
    
    By my count, that means several good gridiron coaches in the "Conference
    of All Time," what with guys Mackowiscz (sp?), Mallory, Frye, Cooper, 
    Perles, et al.  Add to that the new coaches in Mad City and Chicago not
    to mention Numero Uno at PSU and it looks like the Big11 is entering an
    unparalleled era in an already superfine history!
    
    Big11 Tom
    	 

    Ha!!!
    
    The Bg10 in football is like the ACC in basketball.  Lots and lots
    and lots of 'excellent' losses.  Hawhawhaw.  What was Bo's record
    in the Rose Bowl, anyway? Haw Haw.  At least Penn State will show
    those wusses what it means to run a WINNING program!
    
    The Big10 - a tradition of excellent losses on the gridiron.
    
    JD

> Yeah, you got that part ACC Crisp, Practicing Hypocrite.  But what you
> got wrong was that this marriage made in heaven is necessarily craven
> and wrong.  

I NEVER said it was "necessarily craven and wrong".  Show me where I said
it.  (You can't, cause I didn't.)  The fact remains though that 
many of your conference AD's didn't think it was such a hot idea,
not to mention the man you want to name the new league after.  Hah!


> First, the Big10 had no choice.  

True, this move was shoved down the throats of the AD's by the league
prez-e-dents.


> Second, Penn State was looking for a safe haven, needing on one hand to 
> get into a big-time conference and on the other to avoid compromising its 
> well known academic principles.  It filled both of those needs.  

There's no doubt Penn State is the big winner here.  The loser?  Well,
for starters, how 'bout the Iowa Hawkeyes (both male and female sports),
who now get to travel 800+ miles to do-battle with the Nittany Lions
(who, for all intensive purposes, are located in the middle of nowhere).
But hey, you already know this.  Bob Knight himself has been mucho-POed
about this for quite awhile.  


> Third, the Big10 is left no choice in the face of unfair competition from 
> the likes of the Big8, SWAC, Almost Close, SEC and others.  

If by "unfair competition" you're talking about the battle for the network 
buck, it's no less fair than a better product beating out an inferior one.
Big 10 football is notoriously snooze-inducing, what with the boring
(yet mega-talented) Buckeyes and Wolverines dominating the league for so
long that people can't get used to anything different.  In hoops you've 
got an exciting league for sure, but one that falls a notch below the
consistently excellent Big East & ACC.  
    

> It was a preemptive strike to pluck one of the best plums that'll ever
> be available (Notre Dame's the best, fer sure).  Now, at last, the
> Big10 will have East coast TV numbers which will make them a compelling
> TV partner when added to their Midwest demographics.  
    
Indeed, and congrats.  Penn State is a fine school.  Just don't lose 
sight of the fact that a) It was done for the bucks, pure and simple,
and b) a whole lotta Big 10 folks weren't thrilled with the decision.


>    I was under the impression that the Almost Close operated a conference
>    gridiron schedule.  Am I wrong on this?

Indeed they do, and a mighty fine one at that.  But Penn State in the
ACC is obviously not a good match.  They're a football school, and, above
all else, this was a football decision.  
    

> I like The Big Bob better, but remember that only half
> of we Midwesterners are Bob fans...

I think you're being generous.  BTW - I still vote for "The Big
Money-Grabbers".  Kinda has a ring to it, plus it's inheriently truthful.

HTH,


- ACC Chris
    

    >The Bg10 [sic] in football is like the ACC in basketball.
    >The Big10 - a tradition of excellent losses on the gridiron.
    
    Be careful, JD.  First count up total Titles before you go shooting
    off your mouf on this.  The Almost Close in hoops has been, wail,
    almost close quite a lot and except for the pubic hare haided sleazoid
    NC Skate, would be looking at a near blank right now.  Not so for the
    All Time Conference.
    
    As for the Rose Bowl, it's basically a home game for the opposition
    and the visiting team's first-ever look at The Big City and Bright
    Lights and The Beach.  I've said for years that we should scrap the
    Rose and leave it to the Pac10 to select the visitor.  Boaf the Pac
    and the Big Bob have sacrificed Titles being tied up in this format.
    This'll happen, btw, once the $ for the Rose Bowl declines with the
    new contract (which'll happen).  Then and only then will these two
    superior leagues be in a position to compete against the Miamis and
    NDs and Oklahomas et al as far as choosing the right game for a shot
    at the mythical National Championship.
    
    re .120
    
    So there was dissent, so what?  The argument was over process, not
    product.  Penn State was a gem and we boaf got that gem but got some
    major embarrassment-style Face! from you Almost Close group, who was
    rebuked, and badly.  As for your persistent implication about the
    financial aspeck, so what?  As with our ongoing programs, if a league
    like the Pac10 or Big10 cain dovetail money and integrity so much the
    better, and we are so much better!
    
    Face it: You were rebuked, and by quality.  We are the chosen ones.
    
    Next Question: Who'll be the next eastern school to rebuke your league,
    ACConfessed.  Who?
    
    Big11 Tom (soon to be Big12 Tom, who cain't wait to sniff all those
    greenbacks and fat PR and even fatter recruiting we gonna git [sic]!)

    There are rumors that the University of Notre Dame has also 
    approached the Big10 about entry.  The reports are that Notre
    Dame would axe compensation for lost revenues from in-place
    TV contracts, and that they are demanding rights to continue
    running their special TV distribution network, but would otherwise
    be a normal conference member.
    
    Reaction from the Big10's Chicago offices is mixed, with some 
    excited to enlist such a fine school and athletic powerhouse,
    others concerned about Notre Dame's Quebec-style demands.
    
    More later.
    
    Big12 Tom

>    Big12 Tom
         ^

How's that? Who's that?

TTom

    Who dat?  Notre Dame maybe?  If not the Irish, there's no shortage
    of qualified and very anxious candidates, and the Council of
    Ten is committed to going to 12 teams.  So the concept and the
    commitment is already there, it's only a matter of time now.
    
    I've always been ahaid of the times, so why not Big12 right now?
    
    Who will be the next to join?  Who are the prospects:  
    
    	- Pittsburgh
    	- SyrExcuse
    	- Louisville
    	- Nebraska
    	- Missouri
    	- Rutgers
        - Cornell
    
    We'll find out in a couple a years.  Mergers & Acquisitions cain be 
    fun, huh?
    
    Big12 Tom

As long as Leveraged Buy Outs don't start hitting the scene.

I guess one of the problems that you may have, MrT, is that you may see
the Big1x starting to court and perhaps even accept one of the schools
towards whom you have directed your pointed commentary.

Pittsburgh leads the nation in Prop48 non-attendees. I would love to see
Syracuse join so we can hear you talk about how great they are and still
call them "SyrExcuse" coached by "BayWhine". Louisville is a basketball
power but their football is about in the same league as Penn State's
basketball. Nebraska is not as good in basketball as Penn State (2 more
easy wins for Bobby?). Missouri is putting pressure on Illinois for most
rumors about probation. Rutgers is a fine school of marginal athletic
prowess. Cornell is a fine school of division 2 level athletic prowess.

Serious question: Is there any substance to the rumor that has
Northwestern leaving the conference? I've heard them going independent,
to the Ivy league and about everything in between. What's the straight
skinny?

TTom

    Regarding Northwestern, the school and the powerful Chicago biz
    community are dead set against leaving the Big10.  Won't happen.
    As for them going to the Ivy, yes UN is an elite private school
    which would fit the Ivy's profile, but I would think Wisconsin,
    Michigan, or Purdue would be invited into the nation's oldest
    conference (?) before them - assuming that they could overlook
    teachers' colleges and broader enrollment standards they'd certainly
    come out ahead in terms of research, science, technology, engineering,
    and overall academic prestige.
    
    As far as SyrExcuse and BayWhine, bring him on.  I already miss
    good ol' "coach" Bill Fritter, and "coach" Lou HitSome won't be around
    much longer either.  I agree about Pittsburgh, and Delany has been
    lambasted in the press for even considering such a program.  But 
    the geographic fit is perfect, and the Big10 could upgrade them from
    a_integrity standpoint.
    
    Personally, I like the Rutgers idea.  The New York metro has been hungry 
    for big-time college football for some time, and Rutgers' recruiting
    would improve instantly once admitted.  On the other hand, this
    underrated academic institution would benefit mightily from the sudden
    massive expsosure.  Most important, the combo of Penn State and Rutgers
    would wrest the almighty central NorthEastCorridor TV market from the
    other leagues vying for those very large dollars.
    
    Most out here are betting on SyrExcuse, though.  Especially since both
    the AD and President there have met privatley with Delany and the 
    Council of Ten.  
    
    Btw, I think perhaps you're unaware of Louisville football?  They've
    been in the Top 25 and bowls quite a few times, and are now run by a
    certain Norm Ellenberger from Miami fame.
    
    Big10 Tom

>    Btw, I think perhaps you're unaware of Louisville football?  They've
>    been in the Top 25 and bowls quite a few times, and are now run by a
>    certain Norm Ellenberger from Miami fame.
    
     Is Norm Ellenberger from Miami really that famous ?  Is it me that
     has completely lost touch with the college football world ?

    I know a Norm Ellenbogen that liked down the street from me.  Maybe
    he's not the certain Norm Ellenbogen though...

    I believe it is Howard Schnellenberger (sp), the pipe smoking dude.

>    I believe it is Howard Schnellenberger (sp), the pipe smoking dude.

     Yes, we know (except T).  I just was making a point at how "famous"
     he was, considering T couldn't remember his name.

No, I remember Louisville football, fairly well in fact. They beat No
Carolina last year at Louisville something like 10-6. This is the same
Tar Heel team that regularly gave up big points against powerhouses like
Wake Forest.

TTom

    Louisville football is usually a joke, in the same league as Cincinnati
    bearcats.   Louisville is improving, but is still no where near
    the level of a good football team.
    
    JD

>    Louisville football is usually a joke, in the same league as Cincinnati
>    bearcats.   Louisville is improving, but is still no where near
>    the level of a good football team.
    
     Not nationally, but you have to realize the consideration is to bring
     them into the Big 11.  They can probably be competitive with all but the
     top 2-3 teams (I guess that was the assumption).

    Nibble 'round the edges, men (or would that me mice?), but we
    substantive meaty content-eaters know that youse jilted Almost
    Close folks are just sore is all.
    
    Louisville schmouiville, I's jest telling you who dey talking about.
    As I said, SyrExcuse, Pitt, Nebraska, and Rutgers are the most probable
    entrants into the fray.  
    
    Whatever the case, the Big11 is looking to become the Big12 and not
    all that long from now.
    
    Big11 Tom

    >Whatever the case, the Big11 is looking to become the Big12 and not
    >all that long from now.
    
    And we can be sure, that no matter which school is invited, it will be
    accompanied by insufferable chest-beating based on a vapid set of
    reasons, when everyone knows the real reason for the invitation and any
    acceptance is pure greed.
    
    Dan

    I seem to recall that the press release announcing Penn State's
    acceptance into the Big Ten mentioned that the Big Ten athletic
    directors had declared a 4 year moratorium on any more expansion
    discussions.
    
    In other words, I thought they were going to stay at 11 schools for at
    least 4 years.   Of course, these days the expansion talk is so fluid
    that nothing is set in concrete.   Five or 6 weeks ago, the ACC decided
    to stand pat with 8 schools.  Now they're re-opening the issue in light
    of all the rumors and hearsay about different schools going different
    places.
    
    Looks like a shakedown in conferences has only just begun.
    
    Oh, and for the record, I think the Penn State-Big Ten merger is a good
    one and it will help both sides.  The current Big Ten gets a
    high-quality, ultra-clean, big football school.  And Penn State gets an
    upgraded schedule for all its other sports, including basketball, one
    of its perennial weaknesses.
    
    Penn State could and should become a dominant football power in the
    Big Ten.   In time, the Michigan-Penn State game will become a classic.
    
    Bob Hunt

    >the real reason for the invitation and any acceptance is pure greed.
    
    If you mean by that "greed of a pure nature," yes I would agree.
    
    But pure rapacious cravenous blind greed?  No.  No bones were made 
    from the outset that this was done to enhance the Big10's viability
    as a_entity.  But the move was a matter of survival.  The Big10 was
    lagging in terms of TV $ in comparison to its competitors, and the
    new member(s) will help solve that problem.  The move was meant
    to capture broader and richer demographics.   It was a coup cuz the
    Almost Close is a more obvious fit in terms of geography, but they
    were rejected in favor of other considerations. 
    
    But, to be sure, the move flowed from market exigencies.  But what
    was the Big10 to do, wither and die?
    
    I don't think the Big10 need apologize for being in the sports 
    entertainment biz given that everybody else is too.  Apology would
    be called for only if academic principles were sacrificed, and 
    bringing in a_institution such as Penn State was quite the opposite.
    
    >Why not call it the Big Dum, since 10=11=12?
    
    Childish, Dan.  Tsk tsk.  And... rather dumb to boot.
    
    Big10 Tom                                            

Subject: No name change yet for Big Ten
Date: 26 Jun 90 22:02:43 GMT
 
	SCHAUMBURG, Ill. (UPI) -- No matter how many teams are in the Big
Ten, the conference will retain its name for the rest of the year -- and
possibly forever.
	``The Big Ten always has stood for more than 10 institutions,''
Commissioner Jim Delany told the Chicago Tribune. ``There's a tradition
and a sense of values. It's got national and even international
acceptance. It's also got great name recognition. It would be hard to
give it up.''
	The conference must consider such options with the addition of Penn
State, which was officially accepted June 4. Since then, the Big Ten
office has received several suggestions from ``alumni, lawyers, doctors
and just fans'' about a new name, conference spokesman Mark Rudner said
Tuesday.
	However, Rudner declined to release any of the suggestions, saying
it was better to forget some.
	``I've fielded more questions from fans about the name change than
about possible implications of the changes,'' Rudner said.
	Delany said the conference is considering seeking outside help from
a marketing firm for a new moniker. The Big Ten has had to deal with
name changes before. In 1945, when the University of Chicago left the
conference, resulting in just nine member schools, the Big Ten
officially remained the same. Yet the media called it the Big Nine.
	Michigan State's addition in 1950 made the Big Ten whole again.
	``Since Penn State isn't competing in the Big Ten in '90-91, the
current name is still a reflection on the number of teams in the
conference,'' Delany said.
	Rudner said he is monitoring about 30 newspapers in the Midwest to
gauge media reaction to the conference's realignment. More than 50
percent are in favor of the addition of Penn State, he said.
	However, that still leaves the quandary of what to call the
conference.
	``If we go with a numerical name, what does that mean?'' Delany
said. ``If we go with a non-numerical name, what does it mean? The
consensus now is to stay where we are and give it a lot of thought.''

Controversy:

> .135
>    Big11 Tom

>.139
> No name change yet for Big Ten

Out of sync with his own league. 

TTom

    
    So the "Big Ten" will always be the "Big Ten", even if they have
    forty-eleven teams.  Hmmm...Makes a lotta sense.  Sorta like if
    the American League moved to Japan and was still called the American
    League.
    
    The only dumber thing I can think of is moving a basketball team
    from lake country to concrete and tinsel, and still be called the
    Lakers.  But then again, how popular is jazz in Utah?
    
    Dickster
    

> No, I remember Louisville football, fairly well in fact. They beat No
> Carolina last year at Louisville something like 10-6. This is the same
> Tar Heel team that regularly gave up big points against powerhouses like
> Wake Forest.
    
    Low blow, TTom, and largely false at that!  We only lost to Wake 16-13
    last year.
    
    Glad I could clear things up,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
>    Low blow, TTom, and largely false at that!  We only lost to Wake 16-13
>    last year.
    
    Glad I could clear things up,
    
    
    - ACC Chris


 So is that a moral victory as an excellent losses go?  ;^)

    Neither - more like a "Miserable Loss", which was just one of a string
    of miserable losses we've been suffering ever since Mack "Please Go
    Back" Brown took over.
    
    Just thought I'd set the record straight.
    
    :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>>>    Big11 Tom

>> No name change yet for Big Ten

>Out of sync with his own league. 
    
    I would expect that it is incumbent upon academic institutions, even if
    they be greedy, money-grubbing academic institutions to see the folly
    of calling themselves The Big 10, when the conference represents 11
    or more schools.  Thus it's appropriate to refer to them as The Big
    Dum, leaving the double entendre intact.  It's a nice phonetic follow
    on to their chosen moniker, saves them the cost of hiring this
    marketing firm to choose a new name, and being that the name is mostly
    referred to the schools athletic endeavors does a service in
    representing a conference which, aside from the one school which is
    superior academically and inferior athletically, graduates only 37% of
    it's sports scholarships.
    
    Not to mention that we could refer to our friendly ultra-bigot as 
    BigDumTom.
    
    Dan

    >As I said before, if you set aside elitist considerations, Northwestern
    >isn't even close to being the academic powerhouse in the Big10.  
    
    Yes, but what you said before isn't any more true than when you say it
    now.  What you snobbishly refer to as "elitist considerations" most
    people refer to as the real world.
    
    >the Big Dum is being chosen over the ACC for reasons involving academics.
    
    Nobody's ever made this false claim until now.  Congrats on being the
    first, but I think you should clue in the schools you misrepresent in
    here.  
    
    Dan

Yes, I'm sure Penn State considered other conferences prior to consulting
with the Big 1x. I'm sure they also considered a number of other
alternatives. So what?

Whether Pennsylvania is closer to Maryland or Ohio is a great debate
topic. But of course, in the heat of the battle, someone might ruin it
and pull out an Atlas and notice that it touches both states. Certainly,
Pennsylvania is not on the Atlantic Coast which is a geographic feature
shared by the current ACC members. Nor is it below the Mason-Dixon line.

As a school, Penn State is very similar to all of the Big 1x members,
except for Northwestern, elitism and snobbery notwithstanding: it is a
large, state university. 

TTom

    >Except the president of Penn State, the AD, Joe Paterno...  Oh, you
    >don't think they even considered the much more geographically proximate
    >Almost Close?  Speculation.
    
    So you claim those Penn St. reps said they chose the Big 10 (then) over
    the ACC because of academic reasons.  Unfortunately, when I look this
    up, there's no corroboration.  I remember the SI article on the subject
    and here's the stab the NY Times took at explaining the reason behind
    the move:
    
>For Penn State, which has been struggling to support 28 varsity sports prima-
>rily from revenue earned by its football team, joining the Big Ten should 
>produce a net financial gain.  For example, although it will have to share 
>postseason revenue with its new partners, it will also share in such revenue 
>earned by other Big Ten schools.  It will also qualify for the Rose Bowl, the 
>most lucrative of the college bowl games.   
    
    Certainly they could have dug up some of these spicy "academic"-type
    quotes that MrT seems to remember so vividly.  Is anyone surprised to
    see reputable sources in disagreement with MrT's version of the story? 
    
    >It's known most for its business school, yet Indiana's is ranked higher.
    
    Really?  I've taken a look recently, and Indiana wasn't mentioned among
    the country's best, but Northwestern's was right up there.  That's from
    several different sources, both published and personal.  No one ever
    mentioned Indiana.  Michigan did get some mention, though nothing too
    strong, so take a bow.
    
    >So, while you and Dick Vitale wax eloquent about exclusivity, average
    >incomes, and white melanin; the experts who aren't snobs concentrate
    >on the things that count
    
    Perhaps you should have a talk with those experts and "educate" so they
    could repeat your party line instead of contradicting you.  The experts
    in this field, commonly known as Guidance Counselors, Career Planning
    Counselors, etc. don't mention exclusivity or the racial insinuations
    you make.  They do usually mention average income, but I haven't nor
    have I heard Dick Vitale.  They also mention a host of other criteria
    which you don't want to hear about, such as quality of teachers,
    teacher/student ration, quality of student, future after leaving school
    (incl. income, job type, graduate school, etc.).  In short, you're way
    off base in deigning to speak for me or the experts, so why not can it?   
    Go thump your chest about how much you sweat driving a car or
    something.
    
    Dan

    Well, now MrT has switched from claiming all the "experts" in the field
    say Indiana is one of the best to claiming that there was an article in
    either Fortune or Business Week two years ago which makes that claim. 
    Interesting how all those "expert" sources dried up in the last few hours,
    isn't it?  If you're really interested, why not talk with one of the
    real experts inthe field, and they'll set you straight.
    
    >Northwestern is overrated academically.  It's a white rich kid school,
    >which counts a lot for people like you and magazines sold to white
    >rich executives.
    
    How do you mean this?  I mean, what makes NW overrated academically,
    besides your opinion?  A 4-year old article in Time perhaps?  And what
    difference does it being an allegedly "white rich kid school" make to
    me?  To magazines sold to white rich executives?  Maybe the answers to
    these questions should be forwarded to all the counselors in this
    industry so they can learn to send the best students to huge
    state-sponsored schools instead.  I'm sure they'ed be amused by these
    wild assertions you make.
    
    >Sad statement on you that you would use Tass Amerika as a reference,
    >one of the sloppiest and most biased newspapers in the world...
    
    That you have attacked the source of the reference, and left the
    content alone is most revealing.  As for the statement about myself, I
    thank Charles Mok for entering the original article. You made a good
    choice, Charles, despite MrT's pathetic rebuttle.  A classic straw man
    argument.
    
    >The point remains that they woulda made the same bucks with
    >the ACC but passed them over.
     
    This "point" is false, innacurate, misleading and intellectually
    dishonest.  But what else is new?  Football, my cornered,
    truth-stretching friend, is what makes the green role in.  And as  you
    are well aware, comparing the ACC to the Big 10 in football is like
    comparing Indiana Business School to Northwestern or Harvard.
    
    Matter of fact, can you point me to one piece of evidence (please don't
    use vague memories of old articles in a magazine you're not sure of)
    which says that Penn St. passed the ACC over?
    
    Dan
    Dan

    We've travelled this road before, the denouement being the extensive
    ratings that I published in here.  As I remember from that rating
    serivce (California based), Northwestern's overall raking was about
    4th in the Big10.
    
    The biz school rating, it turns out, came from the same WSJ series
    to which you referred the other day.  Btw, the article in WSJ this
    week rated the top three in 4 areas (medicine, engineering, law, and
    business).  You had the usual repertoire (Johns Hopkins, Harvard,
    Case Western, etc.)  The interesting thing I noticed was that when
    you counted up by conference the total of the 12 total entries, only
    two athletic powerhouse conferences even scored: the Pac10 with Stanford 
    twice (law and business), and the Big10 twice with Illinois in engineering
    and Northwestern in business.
    
    re: Big10 vs. ACC
    
    Obfuscate to your heart's desire, but several Penn State officials
    talked at length about the academic dimension to their decision.  They
    also admitted to having looked at other conference(s), without naming
    them.  
    
    That talk is real, btw.  Take the Ivy League, what is it but an
    athletic entity, yet there exists a huge drop off between the Ivy's
    first and second academic divisions, with the laggards reaping huge
    PR benefits for playing in the same sports league.  Spin.
    
    re: Geography
    
    While you have your atlas out check the distribution and notice that
    Penn State need only fly over the Blue Ridge and their airplane's
    looking at all of the ACC except Tech.  Then check out the flight
    across the breadbasket to very remote locations such as Iowa City,
    Minneapolis, and Madison and get back to me on this willya.
    
    Big11 Tom
    The

>    get back to me on this willya.

I noticed that your kindler and gentler response failed to fabricate any
evidence concerning the ACC and Penn St. Thanks.

TTom

    >We've travelled this road before, the denouement being the extensive
    >ratings that I published in here.  As I remember from that rating
    >serivce (California based)...
    
    No, MrT, the denouement is the real world, not your vague recollections
    of some "ratings" from a magazine.  BTW, you didn't answer any of the
    questions I asked.  As is often the case.
    
    >The interesting thing I noticed was that when
    >you counted up by conference the total of the 12 total entries, only
    >two athletic powerhouse conferences even scored: the Pac10 with Stanford 
    >twice (law and business), and the Big10 twice with Illinois in engineering
    >and Northwestern in business.
     
    Not surprising.  The Kellog School (NW) has been seen as near or even
    at the top recently.  It's not my first choice, but I wouldn't do
    anything silly like implicitly accuse its admissions of racism nor
    compare its academics to Indiana.
    
    >Obfuscate to your heart's desire, but several Penn State officials
    >talked at length about the academic dimension to their decision. 
    
    For some reason, you don't chose to name the sources where one might
    find this lip service.  Can't imagine why.
    
    >Take the Ivy League, what is it but an
    >athletic entity, yet there exists a huge drop off between the Ivy's
    >first and second academic divisions,
    
    You're off base again.  There is no "huge drop off" nor is the Ivy
    primarily sports.  They have acedemic programs, which they share with a
    few other schools in the vicinity, where students can attend classes at
    the different schools in the League, where professors can teach at the
    different schools, all sorts of things.
    
    Dan

I thought they indicted and, indeed, busted ol' HR Haldemann (sic)?

TTom

    Ah, MrT comes slinking back into the conversation having been exposed
    as a rabid truth stretcher in past notes.
    
    >>For some reason, you don't chose [sic] to name the sources...
    
    >Already did that: Joe Paterno, and whatshisname the Prez of PSU.
    
    I suppose you had a private audience with these fellows, because no
    one, least of all you with all the false claims, can document this lip
    service that you claim they performed.
    
    >Surely this is a_unfair description of my detailed republication 
    >of program-by-program facet-by-facet rankings takent from the bible
    >used by high school academic counselors?  
    
    A two-year old copy of an unscientific survey done in a business
    magazine is no where near a bible to anyone, least of all anyone
    interested in education.  Now stop making things up!  If you would ever
    talk to anyone in this industry you'd find out the real story, but I
    can see you are uninterested in that.
    
    To repeat, your flimsy memory of an old survey of non-education
    specialists from a non-education journal has NO effect on how the real
    world perceives which business schools are the best. 
    
    >That would be hypocritical, and, especially after your exposure as 
    >the unindicted co-conspirator in the contest rigging scandal, we
    >wouldn't want you to come off looking like HR Haldemann, now would
    >we?  Btw, do you wear a flat top?
    
    Long, flowing locks for me.  By the way, I was only exposed as the just
    winner of the contest, and a very generous one at that.
    
    By the way, the questions I asked you concerning your asinine
    insinuations of racism in me and "good" schools still goes unanswered. 
    Not really surprising, but very revealing.  This is the same Mr
    Truthstretcher who, when faced with the NY Times printing the real
    reason Penn St. chose the Big 10 (Money, lots of it), critisized the
    newspaper to no end and ignored the content, yet when he (MrT) made some
    things up about George Steinbrenner (who I obviously shed no tears
    for) and I called him on it, waits two years and referes to Esquire
    Magazine, a fashion specialist.  Such journalistic integrity!
    
    Dan

    >300 page highly detailed objective ranking annually published
    >by a_analyst from LA.
    
    Translation:  MrT searched high and low for any publication that agreed
    with his view of the world.  He may have found one; at least he claims
    he did.  Unfortunately for his view, the rest of the world doesn't see
    it that way, as anyone could tell from a brief conversation with any
    career planning advisor at any local college.
    
    >Re Paterno and PSU's Prez, I'm not gonna go downtown to the 
    >library and dig up the articles and cf them for ya: It's widely
    >acknowledged that Paterno and the Prez were in the paper for weeks
    >babbling...
    
    Translation:  They said it and I don't have to prove it.  The NY Times
    and Sports Illustrated are conspiring against the Big 10 by making it
    look like everyone is just in it for the money.
    
    Dan

It's an easy solution. Sh*t can Northwestern, add Penn State and you got
a homogeneous solution for back to the Big 10. Get rid of the elitism,
confusion over which school offers the best whatever, and embrace another
major state university school that wants to make money in athletics.

TTom

    >Neither the NY Times nor SI stated that academics weren't involved,
    >nor did either publication state that PSU didn't evaluate other 
    >leagues.
    
    Interesting.  From now on reasonable sources (not Esquire, for
    instance, except if we were talking about what color the fall sweaters
    will be next fall) that don't comment on an issue can be understood to
    endorse whatever side you want.  For instance, SI didn't comment on the
    fact that Joe Paterno was seen at the Penn. St. spring football
    sessions adorned in a pink fairy's outfit, replete with magic wand. 
    Therefore, acording to MrT's new policy, it happened.
    
    Fact is, if PSU or the Big 10 had even given prominent lip service to
    the academic side, or the myth that PSU was courted by and shunned the
    ACC, it would have been given some space.  As you recognize, those
    would be controversial issues, if they really existed, deserving of
    mention in both publications.  With you, we have the controversy
    without the issue.
    
    >those who know what they're talking about would place it at about 4th
    >or 5th.
    
    As opposed to you who myopically searched for one random survey, I have
    talked to those who know what they're talking about, and they disagree
    with you.
    
    >When you found out what a gaffe
    >that was from a rankings standpoint, you then stated that only
    >numerical criteria mattered, specifically average SAT scores.  When
    >you found out that the average SAT scores for incoming Big10 students
    >was nearly 150 points higher than those for incoming Least students,
    >the debate suddenly stopped.                              
    
    Would it harm you that much to be truthful, that you fantasize about
    the events as you do above?  I stated some parameters well before you
    came our with your ill-informed subjective survey, and unlike yours
    (whatever agrees with your biased opinion, created by wanting something
    badly enough) mine remain true today, and are shared by the experts in
    the education industry.  I also didn't make any claims for any Big East
    school, save Georgetown.  In fact, despite your ravings, you proved me
    correct in the end.  As I recall, G'town has the highest SAT scores,
    which is just one parameter among the many.
    
    But you published tons of irrelevant numbers concerning opinions by one
    agency on schools.  That doesn't substitute or even approach hard fact
    or less biased and more informed opinions.  You choose to follow the
    beat of one off-beat drummer.  A poor choice, we all can admit.
    
    Dan
    for incoming students.

    >1. I ain't never quoted Esquire on this subject.  
    
    No, but you continually and delibrately decline to name your sources,
    and now you have "referred" to Esquire on a subject which makes your
    claims seem quite suspect.
    
    >2. The NU vs. Big9 data was taken from WSJ's annual, the very same
    >   that you came cudgeling with.
    
    I don't cudgel, nor have I taken data from WSJ's annual, nor would I. 
    Their good for market data, business information and right-wing
    propoganda.  I wouldn't make the mistake of placing much creedence in
    their educational opinions.
    
    >3. The Big10 vs. Big East data were objective by any definition, and
    >   were taken from the only broad-based objective rankings I could
    >   find.
    
    Which only suggests that you didn't look very hard.  Nor were their
    rankings objective, as I most certainly recall.
    
       >...deemphasis of upper class racially 
       >pure demographics, which is your option, but not relevant to the
       >issue at hand.                 
    
    You keep bringing this race and upper class bullshit in, as if you're
    taking some moral high ground or something.  As if high SATs and good
    teacher-student ratios and good grad school acceptence rates and high
    after-school salaries are something to be ashamed of.  Well, we both
    know your being hypocritical don't we?
    
    Here's a quiz for you, my mid-western friend.  Here's three business
    schools: Harvard and Northwestern, on the elite, snob, racially-pure,
    upper-class side, and University of Indiana, Bloomington, on the moral
    high ground side.
    
    Which one has the lowest percentage of minority students?  You get
    three guesses.  Dare to answer?
    
    >4. Say what you will about NU, I have nothing against the place.  After
    >   all, it's a Big10 school.  But the fantasy you have about it ranking
    >   over Michigan or Wisconsin or wherever is just that.
    
    As far as it's B-school goes, it's a fantasy I share with the real
    world.
    
    >5. The Prez and Joe both admitted to evaluating other conferences. 
    
    WHere?  When?  Surely you can at least document some of your
    accusations, or are they all just vague memories?
    
    >    2 + 2 = 4, Dan
    
    So you just read into the Penn St. addition to the Big 10 a little, is
    that what you're implying with this clever math?
    
    >I take PSU's selection of the Big10 over the ACC as a compliment to us,
    
    And well you should.  The council of 10 just chalked up another cash
    cow.
    
    Dan

The upshot of all this conference expansion, in which the ACC is
currently playing no part, is the Metro Conference attempt to make itself
into a Super Conference. In this attempt, there is little or no
discussion at all concerning academics. The Metro has contracted with
media firms - Raycom, Jefferson-Pilot, etc. - to determine issues like
marketability of the athletics, scheduling and other related TV and money
issues. 

Now here's a conference that is making no bones about where it stands on
the issues: $s

TTom

    Anyone foolish to think that all the  recent talk of super conferences,
    and the wooing of schools such as PSU to the Big 10 has anything
    to do with besides money, must have just crawled from jurassic swamp.
    
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is the ONE and
    ONLY issue in all the talks of expansion.  
    
    The rest is simple lip service.
    
    JD

    Bingo JD.  MrT has sunk to new depths with his sickening B10 chest
    beating about this.  Meanwhile the noting community sits back and sadly
    shakes its head, fully realizing T's on the losing end of the battle. 
    (again)
    
    In sum, any fool can see why Penn State chose the Big 10.  (It's a 5
    letter word that begins with "M" and rhymes with honey.)  But as long
    as T's throwing out conjecture I feel free to do the same.  Since Penn
    State has relatively horrible hoops, maybe they figured they'd have an
    easier go of it in Big 10 land (where there are doormats like
    Northwestern they can snuggle up next to) than in the rough-and-tumble, 
    no easy "W's" on any night, ACC?!
    
    Heh heh!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Wail, looks like I owe you a_apology, then.
    
    Hope it didn't come off like I was trying to put down the fine Almost
    Close or nothing, for I never meant to do that.  All I was doing was
    celebrating a fine victory where we won the plum fair & square
    competition.  That noble celebratory emotion is no different that the
    pride a victor would emote after winning a classic championship game
    confrontation, where the victor affirms and savors the victory without
    any negative emotions toward the poor haggard loser.
    
    If it seemed like I was doing that, kicking you while you were down,
    especially at a time when one a your top conference members was mulling
    over the thought of bailing out, my apologies.  Guess I could stand to
    be more sensitive sometimes.
    
    Big11 Tom

>    Hope it didn't come off like I was trying to put down the fine Almost
>    Close or nothing, for I never meant to do that.  All I was doing was
>    celebrating a fine victory where we won the plum fair & square
>    competition.  That noble celebratory emotion is no different that the
>    pride a victor would emote after winning a classic championship game
>    confrontation, where the victor affirms and savors the victory without
>    any negative emotions toward the poor haggard loser.

Enjoy the "W" T, if that's what you want to call it.  (Bobby Knight doesn't,
nor do all those Iowa Hawkeye non-football/basketball athletes who will
get to enjoy an 800+ mile road trip to the middle of nowhere.)

But your chest-beating in no way implies a loss for the ACC.  PSU is a
bad fit for the ACC in terms of football, which is where the money is, which
is all that mattered to them, which is why they made the decision they did.

    
>    If it seemed like I was doing that, kicking you while you were down,
>    especially at a time when one a your top conference members was mulling
>    over the thought of bailing out, my apologies.  Guess I could stand to
>    be more sensitive sometimes.

Georgia Tech AD Homer Rice (an ex-football coach, of course) hadn't even
been approached by the SEC but, with visions of mega-bucks dancing in his
head, replied in the affirmative when a reporter asked him if he'd consider
taking Tech into the SEC.

The ensuing outcry from the Tech faithful (phone calls were running 10 to 1
against leaving the ACC, and apparently there were *lots* of calls) forced
Rice to make an embarassing retraction in the next days paper.  

I don't know what Rice was on the day he made his ridiculous comment (I 
suppose money could be considered a drug of sorts, just act Donnie Trump)
but for Tech to leave the ACC, where they've established quite a nice niche
for themselves, and join the football-mad SEC, is folly at best.  No way
does a small school like GT stand to compete on the gridiron with the
football factories of the SEC, while in hoops they'd suffer from a superiority
complex.  (Bobby Cremins made it clear that he was entirely opposed to
Tech leaving the ACC.)

In sum, if this is what you consider "mulling over the thought of bailing 
out", so be it, but I think it's clear you're stretching reality (again).


- ACC Chris

    

Joe Paterno of Penn State has offered an assistant coaching job to Galan
Hall. Hall, for those who don't remember, was most recently the head 
coach of Florida. He left after being cited for multiple NCAA violations.
One of these offenses was that Hall had personally paid some of his
players and recruits. 

I guess this is all in keeping with the move to the Big 10.

TTom

    Do you have documentary proof that this offer was made?  By Dan's
    evidentiary rules, unless and until you submit that proof you must
    maintain radio silence.
    
    If you ever do submit this proof (and you won't) then we cain discuss
    what specific NC Skate/UNC-style sleaze has resulted from the offer.
    
    Until then, rien!
    
    Big10 Tom

Proof:

	Charlotte Observer, Saturday, July 14, 1990.
	(picked up from wire services: AP, UPI, Knight-Ridder, etc.)

It is with deep dismay, MrT, that I view this bitter invective. I am not
concerned about the attack on the news that runs contrary to your view of
things. But what has me deeply worried over your well being is how you
could possibly see anything as "NC Skate (sic)/UNC-style". I understand
how you are under a lot of duress having to cover all your flanks, but I
assure you, sir, there is no such thing as NC State/UNC-style anything.

I suggest that you may want to rephrase your attack on this issue. 

TTom

    From USA Today:
    
    Thirty years after quarterbacking his last down for Penn State,
    Galen Hall is returning to his Alma Mater to restart his football
    coaching career as an **unpaid** graduate assistant.
    
    Out of coaching since being forced to resign as Florida's coach
    Oct. 8, amid a scandal involving NCAA rules violations, Hall rejoins
    Joe Paterno, who recruited him in 1958.
    
    "I'd like to stay in football and will do it any way I can," said
    Hall, 49.  "We all have our goals and have to start somewhere."
    
    In a statement, Paterno said he thought Hall had suffered enough
    for his role in Florida's NCAA-related problems.

Thanks Cap for more proof for MrT.

TTom

    > I understand how you are under a lot of duress having to cover all your 
    > flanks, but I assure you, sir, there is no such thing as 
    > NC State/UNC-style anything.
    
    Correct again TTom (that's 2-in-a-row!), but I'd grab the compliment if
    I was you.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    So sorry TTom.  According to the evidentiary rules recently established
    in here by the schneid one, unless you can reproduce in this system a
    copy of the newspaper you read, and all of the primary documentation
    used by the reporter (tape recordings, NCAA reports, etc.), I'm afraid
    you have nothing to go on - a simple reference such as you supplied
    ain't good enough.
    
    Big10 Tom

    How 'bout if I say I saw the same article.  Proof enough?
    
    	--dan'l

Just to be sure that it doesn't disappear:

>   <<< Note 15.179 by MUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSY "DevilSatanLuciferBeelzebubDan" >>>
>
>    So sorry TTom.  According to the evidentiary rules recently established
>    in here by the schneid one, unless you can reproduce in this system a
>    copy of the newspaper you read, and all of the primary documentation
>    used by the reporter (tape recordings, NCAA reports, etc.), I'm afraid
>    you have nothing to go on - a simple reference such as you supplied
>    ain't good enough.
>    
>    Big10 Tom

Now we have it for posterity. MrT's rules for evidenciary etiquette. Let's
see how he follows them.

As for me, I'll stand by the posting of the information, the citing of
the source and the coroboration by Cap from USA Today (of which I have a
copy).

TTom

    Funny how Penn State, which has about as solid a reputation as there
    is, suddenly turns around and hires a convicted cheater.  Is it just a
    coincidence that this happened at the same time they join the Big 10?!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >So sorry TTom.  According to the evidentiary rules recently established
    >in here by the schneid one, unless you can reproduce in this system a
    >copy of the newspaper you read, and all of the primary documentation
    >used by the reporter (tape recordings, NCAA reports, etc.), I'm afraid
    >you have nothing to go on - a simple reference such as you supplied
    >ain't good enough.
    
    An accurate and accountable reference from an honest noter is always
    good enough in my book.
    
    Dan

    >If only MrT coulda produced such evidence
    
    But I cain.  But I won't until explicit groundrules are laid our first.
    I'm tarred of going to the library and researching Dan-bull debunk jobs
    only to have you wriggle out of accountability to the Truth with some
    form of obfuscation and fibbery.   
    
    As you know, Dan, I've nailed to cold-busted several times and you ain't
    even blushed once, much less admitted to anything.  
    
    Big10 Tom
    

    The Sporting News this week had Penn State's record vs the Big Ten in
    football, 16-17-2.  They had Iowa listed twice, as having played and
    having not played, and Indiana listed not at all, so I don't know
    whether Penn State has played Iowa or not.  I think it's more likely
    they've played Iowa but I'm not sure.
    
    vs Ohio State	6-2
    vs Illinois		3-1
    vs Iowa		6-3 (Indiana?)
    vs Michigan State	1-8-1
    vs Purdue		0-1-1
    vs Wisconsin	0-2
    vs Michigan		DNP
    vs Northwestern	DNP
    vs Minnesota	DNP
    vs Indiana		DNP (Iowa?)
    
    John

    re 1
    
    Yeah, I don't believe the Hoosiers have ever played the Nittany Lions.
    
    Musta been the Hawkeyes.  To put the Hoosier football program's history
    into perspective, they're 11th on the all time Big10 winning percentage
    list.  While they've been decent enough the last decade, before that
    they seldom played anybody good outside of the Big2.  One year they
    tried to change all that by playing Nebraska and Oklahoma two weekends
    in a row (during the early 70s, as I remember).  After the dust settled,
    the aggregate score for the two games was something like 140-3.  Also,
    the Hoosiers suffered so many concussions and broken bones that they
    were nearly unable to field a team over the following month.
    
    Which reminds me of another story.  Lee Corso's debut against Woody
    Hayes took place on a fine sunny Saturday in Bloomington.  That year
    the Buckeyes were a contender for the national Title, one of the best
    Buckeye teams ever.
    
    Wail, the Hoosiers didn't come back onto the field after retiring to
    the home lockerroom after warm-ups.  We sat there wondering whether 
    Lee had stage fright, and after about five minutes Woody was frothing
    at the mouth in anger.  Then... the Hoosiers came blasting on to the
    (awful) AstroTurf hanging onto a_antique fire truck with the siren
    on!  True story.  
    
    The Bucks were so stunned, and the hapless Hoosiers and their fans so 
    fired up, that, with the help of a couple of turnovers and lucky breaks 
    the Hoosiers took a 14-0 lead!  Wail, at that point Corso called a 
    timeout.  As Ohio State stood on the sidelines puzzled, the entire 
    Hoosier team assembled at midfield and had a photograph taken - with 
    the angle such that the scoreboard was behind them showing "Indiana 14,
    Ohio State 0" but not the quarter and time of game.  When this became
    apparent, Woody Hayes suffered a_attack of apoplexy, and had to be 
    restrained by his assistant coaches.  
    
    He kept his first team in the entire game, which ended something like
    72-14, with several Hoosier players badly injured.
    
    Big10 Tom 

    Superb new Big10 Commish Delany has announced that a decision on a new
    name will be deferred for at least a year.
    
    As you know I've been experimenting with the Big11 monicker, but now
    that the delay is official there will be at least one more year of
    Big10 Tom.
    
    Big10 Tom

>    ... there will be at least one more year of
>    Big10 Tom.

Is that a threat of a promise?

TTom

Florida fingered Galan Hall for giving $21K to coaches and players.
Basically, the Gator story is that he did, they caught him and they sent
him packing. Florida filed this defense with the NCAA. 

BTW, Good Guy Galan is now coaching at Penn State.

TTom

    Well, you know, I'd believe Florida.  They've traditionally
    run an extremely clean program.  :-) :-)
    
    Is the Florida coaching job part of the state work release
    program?
    
    						Roland
    

    >BTW, Good Guy Galan is now coaching at Penn State.
    
    But he's NOT coaching in the Big10 quite yet, now is he?  I'm
    sure that Big10 Quality Control will demand that Mr. Hall be
    purged before the '95 schedule starts up.
    
    Big10 Tom

When does Penn State join the Big10? That's when Galan will be coaching
in the Big10.

If they wait until 95 to join, one would doubt that Galan would be aound,
unless of course Paterno is gone and Galan is promoted to the new State
College Head Paymaster. Wouldn't that be special.

BTW, the only athletic asset that Penn St has to offer the Big10 is
Paterno. When he leaves, one can only wonder what might happen to the
program. This could be like Alabama minus the Bear: a drop to a lower
rung on the field and mighty nasty off the field. 

TTom

    >Wouldn't that be special.
    
    How frustrating it must be for you, sitting there amid all that 
    squalor, sordidness, and cheatery, to realize that there is almost
    NO chance that Hall will ever toot a whistle as a Big10 assistant.
    
    Again, congrats to Penn State, Joe, and us on a_excellent decision
    that will surely push the level of overall American Excellence to
    a still higher level.  A high among highs, I am high on saying "hi"
    to the Nittany Lions resting on their special savannah high in the
    Appalachian highlands just over the ridge from the downbeat ACCland.
    
    Big10 Tom 

Penn State is could face inquiries and sanctions for hiring Galan Hall,
ex-Florida head football coach and money launderer. The NCAA is
investigating Galan to see if he committed infractions while at Florida.
The university in its response to the NCAA said Galan did it.

TTom

    Syracuse U. A.D. whatshisname reversed himself yesterday and stated
    that his whole program goes to its new conference.  Apparently 
    anxious about getting the hale outta the crumbling Big Least, and
    unhappy with the quality of conference attracted by the previous
    "gridiron only" package, the change was made.  
    
    This move points west, young man.
    
    Big10 Tom

You can have Syracuse T. That choke artist of coach should fit in quite
nicely. If the bum had any control over his troops Sir Bobby would have
one less championship...

mike

    With all due respect TTom, could you start puttin' all the Penn State
    information over in the Big10 note.  (#82 I think.) 
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Certain obfuscators have been taking onananisistical liberties
    with the Big10's honor about how "Penn State did it for the money."
    
    Of *course* they did.  So what?
    
    And the Big10 needed Penn State to boot.  Think a it: Only two years
    ago the nation's premier hoops league garnered only half the national
    TV appearances of a lesser leagues in the Big Least and the Almost 
    Close.  Half !!  Think sheer demographic volume didn't have something
    to with this?
    
    So, Delany shook things up and copped into that fat juicy east coast
    base by signing Penn State.  This talk about Nebraska or Missouri
    is foolish.  What would either of them two bring?  Kansas City and
    St. Louis is all.  Nice towns, but nothing like the raw muscle of the
    NorthEastCorridor.
    
    The Big10 should sign SyrExcuse.  Money talks, and the east coast 
    market is screaming for us.
    
    Big10 Tom   

    Never really considered Penn St. much of an "east coast" team really. 
    I think the Northeast corider is screaming for local colleges to keep
    the local talent (probably more than any other region for hoops) home.
    
    The east coast doesn't really have any of the sports-factory schools of
    a calibre of a Michigan or Ohio St, etc.  Perhaps if Rutgers had some
    reason to turn their eye to sports as the Big 10 schools have, it could
    reach those heights.
    
    
    Dan

In terms of TV, the Big1x is still behind the ACC and Big East. Even on
those Big Monday dates, they get the second billing and time slot which
puts it out of prime time for the North East.

Penn State, however, ain't gonna help out that much. Not in terms of TV
hoops, which is where the Big1x finishes a distant third. They are and
will always be a football school, at least until Joe Paterno retires and
then they'll lose some of that glamor.

TTom

    Penn State is an east-central Pennsylvania team.   Their football team
    is despised in Pittsburgh, upstate New York, northern New Jersey, West
    Virginia, and Maryland.   Their hoops team is basically ignored.
    
    The Philly media goes for Penn State football in a big way.  Mostly
    because the inner-city Philly schools are *much* better at hoops than
    on the gridiron.
    
    If this pattern holds, the Big Ten has picked up the east-central
    Pennsylvania and Philadelphia demographics during the fall football
    season only.   Winter will find Philly fans refocused back onto Big
    Five hoops.
    
    It's hard to imagine much else of the east coast demographics actually
    caring about Penn State.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Bull~

    What are you, a beer commerical ???  Or maybe doing spots for a French
    computer company, monsieur ???
    
    "Bull" to what ???  "Bull" that Penn State isn't in central
    Pennsylvania ???  Or "Bull" to my hunch that Penn State and the Big Ten
    ain't gonna set East Coast televisions set on fire.
    
    Yeah, I can see it now, the 1995 Big Ten Football Game Of The Week,
    Minnesota vs Wisconsin.   People all over New York, Pennsylvania, New
    Jersey, and Maryland will be a_droppin' whatever they're doing just so
    they don't miss a single second of this exciting battle.   After all,
    the winner will be in prime position to challenge Penn State for the
    conference title.
    
    Nah, they'll be rakin' mucho leaves instead ...
    
    Bob Hunt

>    Penn State is an east-central Pennsylvania team.   Their football team
>    is despised in Pittsburgh, upstate New York, northern New Jersey, West
    
    In my experience, PSU is not universally despised in Pittsburgh.
    Too many Pittsburgh residents attended PSU.  That's one reason
    why the PSU/UPitt rivalry is so fierce in Pittsburgh.
    
    A PSU fun fact:  under PA zoning laws, if State College (the "town"
    PSU is in) had one more bar, it would have to be rezoned as a resort
    area.  When Playboy ranked the top 10 party schools they didn't include
    Penn State.  But in a sidebar they explained that the competition
    was open only to amateurs...and Penn State was a professional party
    school.
    
    A fine addition to the Big 1x...
    
    Charlie
    
    

>    ...and Penn State was a professional party
>    school.

I wish I had a beer for every school that claimed to be "professional" in
some Playboy rating.

TTom

>    A PSU fun fact:  under PA zoning laws, if State College (the "town"
>    PSU is in) had one more bar, it would have to be rezoned as a resort
>    area.  When Playboy ranked the top 10 party schools they didn't include
>    Penn State.  But in a sidebar they explained that the competition
>    was open only to amateurs...and Penn State was a professional party
>    school.
    
    Does anyone own the issue that this ranking is in?  The reason I ask is
    that I've heard the same story attributed to the following schools:
    
    	- WVU
    	- Ohio U
    	- East Carolina
    	- Wisconson
    	- LSU
    
    And this is the first time I've ever heard Penn State in that story. 
    
    Will someone please end the rumors?  Who did Playboy rank the
    "professional party school" and what issue is it in?
    
    

    There was no such mention of a "professional" party school in a Playboy
    party school ranking.   That "legend" is so old I first heard it in the
    mid-1970s when I started at Virginia.
    
    The last ranking I saw in Playboy was 2 or 3 years ago and I distinctly
    recall that Virginia was ranked 10th.  I *think* one of the University
    of California campuses was ranked first.  UC-Irvine or UC-Davis, one of
    those.   Typical for a So Cal mag like Playboy.
    
    The students at every single school in the country think they have the
    best party school.  Have you ever heard a college student say: "Geez,
    don't come here.  We have lousy parties." ???
    
    Bob Hunt

>    The students at every single school in the country think they have the
>    best party school.  Have you ever heard a college student say: "Geez,
>    don't come here.  We have lousy parties." ???
    
And actually, the sad part is that most college kids have no idea
just how much better life gets when you get out and get "seasoned"
by the real world.

The parties in college couldn't touch some of the parties I've been
to in the real world, after college.  

But, Bob, you make an excellent point.  Probably only the military
academies abstain from making the above remarks....

'Saw

    
    re .210
    
>    Have you ever heard a college student say: "Geez, don't come here.  
>    We have lousy parties." ???
 
    Hell yes ! Hang around Rice !  :-)
    
    Dr Midnight

    I've always heard that Brandeis is just such a place.
    
    But, they don't gotta make your cautionary statement very often cuz
    it seldom ever occurs to anyone to place "Brandeis" and "party" in
    the same sentence (except maybe "communist party").
    
    Big10 Tom

    'Saw,
    
    I'm not so sure about the military schools.  Army-Navy Week at both
    schools is one hellacious blowout and graduation June Week ain't too
    shabby, either.
    
    The Navy has a long tradition of "wet and wild".   Put solid earth
    under a swabbie's shoes and he's looking for the nearest bar.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    
    Thanks for the rebuttals..guess I'll stop propagating that
    urban legend.
    
    Never met a Penn Stater whom one could trust to get his/her
    facts straight...too many damaged brain cells.  :-)
    
    Charlie
    
    

Again, Bob, good point.

While my father has never talked much about the war itself, his tales
of his and his buddies' escapades with the bottle during training
and liberties make my best attempts at losing brain cells pale by 
comparison.

I guess what I meant about the military schools is that a) you 
don't hear that "spring-break-utter-alcholic-oblivion" advertising
you hear from other schools and b) they make sure (pretty much) that
they don't get caught doing outlandish stuff....

Army-Navy is still, in my mind, one of the best games to watch, just
from the intense rivalry viewpoint....

'Saw

> "spring-break-utter-alcholic-oblivion"

Bob, what's the one at UVa? Easters?

TTom

    Yes, "Easters" was the biggest party of the school year at Virginia.
    
    Gallons of grain alcohol, mud slides, bluegrass bands, endless beer
    kegs, house parties, drunken softball games, drunken frisbee games,
    waking up with your face in the grass, and on and on ...
    
    It actually got out of hand in the late 1970s.   Too many people in too
    small a town with too much alcohol and other intoxicants.  A couple of
    car accidents and an accidental death or two and, in the early 1980s,
    it was toned down some by school authorities.
    
    Most folks lamented the loss but it had gotten out of hand.  I think
    the last really big "Easters" was 1982.  That was two years after I had
    graduated.  I brought my Jersey girl down to C'ville with me for the
    weekend and I believe it is safe to say she and I had a most triumphant
    time, dude.   We still go back every year.  Only now with the kids. 
    Can't start 'em hating the Tar Heels too early, don'tcha know ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    >I've always heard that Brandeis is just such a place.
    
    Sad, but true for the most part.  Many a Saturday night, wild bands of
    would-be partiers were seen leaving campus 'cause so many students were
    holed up in the Science Library.
    
    There were a few good parties every year, but it wasn't a weekly event
    as it is at so many other schools.
    
    Dan

>    Never met a Penn Stater whom one could trust to get his/her
>    facts straight...too many damaged brain cells.  :-)
    
    Through my illustrious educational and swimming career, I've spent
    party time at Pitt, Carnegie Mellon, Ohio U, Miami of Ohio, WVU,
    Slippery Rock, Johns Hopkins, Northern Illinois, Ball State, Eastern
    Michigan, U of South Carolina, Michigan, Ohio State, and a few others I
    don't think I could remember if I tried.  I've also spent party time at
    Penn State and would quite honestly rank them last on that list. 
    
    Happy Valley is only happy on Saturdays during football season.  Any
    other time, they're busy with their agriculture major (thought cow
    tipping might be why they offer this major) and thinking up new names
    for ice cream like Paterno Peach.
    
    	--dan'l
    
    

    >State College is like PSU uniforms -- very bland
    
    Penn State's uniforms have always been my favorite, utter simplicity
    that is so elegant.
    
    Partying at Indiana U. was the best, the school's campus is regarded
    as one of the most beautiful, and it's situated in a natural wonderland
    surrounded by densely forested hills.  The town is dominated by the
    school and its students.  For this reason, unless things get *too*
    outta hand (for instance, the time thousands of Quaaludes were dispensed 
    at a rented horse farm deep in the woods, too many cars and VW vans
    tumbled down the hills that night I'll tellya) the cops know enough to
    stay outta the way or risk getting beat up.
    
    That's why Penn St. will fit right in: They have a real college campus
    and don't sit in some ugly stinking rotten urban ghetto like so many
    "campuses."
    
    Big10 Tom

I'll give you that one on IU, MrT... When I was at Purdue from 79-83, it
was common knowledge that IU was THE party school in Indiana {unless you
were talking small schools like Rose-Hulman}.

Purdue, on the other hand, was still living in the 1950's.   The definition
of a co-ed dorm was two single-sex dorms joined by a common cafeteria.  There
were midnight curfews for members of the opposite sex in the dorms.   If you
weren't pledging Lambda Chi, you were a techno-geek-nerd and banished to play
in the band.

    I agree with you on one point, T.  Penn State uniforms are cool and are
    indeed my favorites also.  I called them bland because they are.  But
    bland is beautiful when it comes to the unies.
    
    But you must not have seen many college campuses, T.  I'd say 75% of
    the college campuses in the nation are like what you discribed in 224
    (excluding the quailude incident of course), especially those in the
    midwest.
    
    Pitt and the University of Cleveland are the only urban schools I've
    ever seen (not including the small colleges that dot most big cities).
    
    	--dan'l

Alabama --  plain and simple.

Navy -- plain and simple...


As the Quakers said:

	"Tis the gift to be simple"

'Saw

    Yeah, Bob, I guess it comes down to your definition of urban.  And I
    also got wrapped up in T's "ghetto" reference.  I just don't think of
    Harvard and MIT as urban, yet they are.
    
    A prime example of a terrific contrast is Pitt and CMU.  Though
    basically side by side, the two schools are as different as night and
    day.  Pitt is concrete and steel with nary a tree to its name.  Even
    their symbol, the Cathedral of Learning (better known as the Tower of
    Ignorance at CMU), is a skyscraper.  Carnegie Mellon is full of
    greenery and college-type architecture.  But it's also full of nerds. 
    Diskette Day.  Give me a break.  I'm embarrassed to be an alum
    sometimes.
    
    	--dan'l
    

    BC is more like Villanova.  Its campus has very similar architecture
    and it's in a rich suburb, just like 'Nova.
        
    Most of the Ivies are urban, Cornell and Dartmouth are in the boonies,
    and Princeton is very suburban.  The most urban Ivy school I've been to
    is Columbia.
    
    Very few Catholic universities and colleges are in small towns.  They
    tend to be either urban, or suburban and very close to a major city.
    
    John

    
>    Carnegie Mellon is full of
>    greenery and college-type architecture.  But it's also full of nerds. 
>    Diskette Day.  
    
    Dan'l, 
      I went to CMU for some grad work in EE.  The grad IM ultimate 
      (frisbee) team was known as the Disc Drivers.  And our 3-time
      champion IM football team was known as the DRAMs.  Pretty nerdy...
    
      But now I'm doing some work at MIT and I saw an IM football
      team out practicing in their uniforms.  The names on the 
      jerseys were things like Gauss, Newton, Einstein; the
      numbers were 5+3i, 3.14159, e**x...   Now, THAT'S nerdy.
    
    Charlie

>      But now I'm doing some work at MIT and I saw an IM football
>      team out practicing in their uniforms.  The names on the 
>      jerseys were things like Gauss, Newton, Einstein; the
>      numbers were 5+3i, 3.14159, e**x...   Now, THAT'S nerdy.
    
Charlie, at CCSU, which is a pretty decent party school, we had
a nerdy element.  There were several SEVERE nerds in the marching
band (I mean, carry the slide rule *and* calculator on their belt
even in Marching Band uniform)...

Anyway, I used to announce for the band, and one time these guys
came up with some of what we ended up calling "Sophisticated Cheers"
my favorite of which was:

	Pursue them, pursue them, make them relinquish the spheroid...

They also would talk about the CCSU QB's inability to throw a complete
pass in these highly complex physics terms.  (Sorry, never took physics
so I can't give you an example, but they were mentioning stuff like
velocity, coefficient of drag etc etc etc)....

I guess there's Nerds everywhere.....

'Saw

    
    I believe Penn State proved that they belong in the Big 10 on Saturday
    with their loss to a PAC 10 school.
    
    

    Yeah, it was a nice win for the Trojans who are now 2-0.  They've got a
    tough non-conference schedule, but I enjoyed seeing them play Paterno
    U.  The Nittany Lions must be given credit because they came back when
    they were on the verge of being knocked out.  Marinovich was uncanny at
    times seeming hitting Wellman whenever he popped open for a split
    second and I thought that USC would begin to put distance between the
    teams, but didn't.  And with that potential opening, Penn St. crept
    back in it and I was having nervous flashbacks of last years Illinois
    game.  But USC held on for a good victory.
    
    Coming up soon, if not next, the Buckeyes from Ohio St.  Always tough,
    but USC usually wins this one.
    
    Dan

    Great weekend for the Big10 gridiron squads.  Lowly Purdue (who 
    may finish last in the conference) was barely edged out by #20
    Washington.  State, after a balky start against a team that's 
    already played some games, came back to tie SyrExcuse in their
    noisy Carrier Dome despite a great performance by that hot frosh
    QB Graves.  The building Hoosiers stomped Norm Ellenberger's 
    Wildcats in a blowout.  The Illini took care of the highly ranked
    Colorado Buffalos in what may be the best game of the year so far
    and moved well up in the Top 20.  Ditto for the Buckeyes, who looked
    good after a tentative start and seem to be back as a power.  Also
    congrat's to the Hawkeyes, who did the Mogambo and could surprise 
    this year.  Even the stinking Golden Goofs wiped up the Iowa State
    Cyclones who're led by Heismann candidate Blaise what'shisname.
    
    Unfortunately, it must go without saying that always embarrassing
    Michigan found a way to lose, with "coach" Gary Moeller apparently
    deciding to stick with Bo's old technique of going on the defensive
    with a lead late in the game and instructing his secondary to drop
    back and concede the easy 20 yard pass so as to not get burned by the
    big play but lose the game anyway - something Michigan's been doing
    in Rose Bowls and nonconference clashes for 20 years now and apparently
    has no intention of ever stopping.  Duh.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom

Wisconsin beat that midwestern power Ball St, 24-7. I guess that's 6-4-1
with a big double A asterisk.

Also, Michigan St choked their chicken at the 'Cuse dome and Michigan
did its annual fold at Notre Dame.

TTom

    6-4 fellas.  Penn State ain't in the Big10.  Yet.  They'll begin 
    participating in the football conference in '94 or '95.  
    
    As for the rest of it, keep in mind that the Big10 plays honest
    schedules, this past week including a road game against the nation's
    #1 team and against a fairly powerful independent with what's widely
    considered the biggest home field advantage in the game cuz a the
    noise.  Then the home game against #9 by the fighting Illini and
    against #20 by the Boilers.
    
    Compare and contrast that level of comp against the shaved pussy
    cat eye action looked at by the overrated overranked and overwrought.
    
    I mean, the strength of opposition *does* figure into the equation,
    don't it?  You guys seem to deny this.  Why?  Dishonest? [yes]
    
    6-4 against the week's toughest non-conference schedule by a wide 
    margin.  Btw, the excellent loss analogy is false.  Please cease and
    desist this.
    
    Big10 Tom
             

    
    Hell, Penn State with a subpar team played a better game than 90% of
    the Big Ten teams that visit southern California have.  They'll be
    okay.
    
    glenn
    

    Just checked all the papers and nowhere was PSU or FSU listed in their 
    respective conference standings.
    
    As for Florida State, they considered and rejected the SEC.  The Big10
    never extended a_invitation to them cuz they're way too far away.  By
    way of stark and tragic contrast, Penn State is closer to the ACC than
    the Big10, yet decided to go the extra miles and reject the ACC.
    
    Btw, I axe you again: We endured several months of moany woany
    pontificating and moralizing about how the Big10 sold out for the dough
    when they took in Penn State.  Are you hypocrites, or have I somehow
    missed all notes entered by you and your buddies making the same 
    interpretation of the Almost Close's motives in *their* recruitment?
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom

    No one denied that the FSU move was about money.   The conference ADs,
    presidents, and faculty reps all said it was all about money all along. 
    The bidding process was about money, the invitation was about money,
    the acceptance was about money.  It was about money in 1990 and it'll
    be about money in 2000, too.
    
    There was endless talk about television markets, recruiting
    territories, basketball ticket sharing, entry fees, and so on ...
    
    No denial whatsoever.
    
    *You* were the one who denied that *our* implications about the Penn
    State move were similarly motivated by the almighty buckaroo.  Hell,
    even Paterno himself said it was about money.  You, on the other hand,
    chose what you thought was the higher ground.  And, now that you're
    having trouble breathing the thin air, you want to blame us.
    
    Sorry, pal, you cain find your own way down from your lofty and lonely
    perch.
    
    Bob Hunt

>    As for Florida State, they considered and rejected the SEC.  The Big10
>    never extended a_invitation to them cuz they're way too far away. 

Same goes for Penn St and the ACC. The ACC never extended a_invitation to
Penn St because they ain't got a_Atlantic Coast.

TTom

    >The ACC never extended a_invitation to Penn St because they ain't
    >got a_Atlantic Coast.
    
    WHOA, another forceful geography "correction" of poor MrT.  And all
    those times on approach to the Phillydelphia airport (where ya fly
    right over Veteran's Stadium) I thought that Naval Shipyard and all
    those ocean going vessels with the cranes picking off those cargo
    containers were real.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Whoa, there's a revelation!  You mean to tale me that that Delaware
    Bridge I drove over 75 times didn't cross the Atlantic Ocean?  Haa.
    No WONDER I could see across that body of water.  Like Jordan, Pa
    has access to the sea.  At least the U.S. Navy and several shipping
    companies and thousands of sea captains seem to think so.  That fact
    certainly suffices the Almost Close's coastal requirement that Haas
    just made up in order to explain away the more proximate ACC's
    embrassing rejection by Penn State.
    
    I've never made a math error in here, and I've never made a geo error
    in here, and that you guys keep grasping for straws only underlines
    how desperate you are to get over.    
    
    >1/2 a state away.
    
    Whoooo.  So now, that 4 hour drive I once did from downtown Atlanta
    from about 2 miles south of Tech to the Georgia coast wasn't about 
    half a state away?  Probly not, I think it was more than a half a 
    state.  Don't have a_Atlas, but the same would probly go for Duke,
    Star Heel U., Fake Forest and NC Skate, wouldn't it?
    
    You guys keel me with your inveterate fakery.
    
    MrT

    Hardly.
    
    On the Georgia Tech theft I was right about the ACC officiating 
    crew but mistaken about the game being played in Norfolk when it
    was actually in New Orleans.  
    
    On Dan's famous "grievous math error" I described a 6 point 
    difference between two coachs' overall career winning percentages 
    as "a five percent delta" when in the strictest sense I shoulda 
    said "a five percentage point delta."  In context it was clear 
    what was meant (the percentage point numbers were in the previous
    sentence), and anyway as it turned out the percent delta by conicidence 
    turned out to be about the same as the percentage point delta so there
    wasn't any significant error to begin with.  It was dishonest of Dan
    to characterize my colloquial phraseology as a "math error," but that
    sort of thing is, er, Dan's forte if you know what I mean.
    
    MrT

    >On Dan's famous "grievous math error" I described a 6 point 
    >difference between two coachs' overall career winning percentages 
    >as "a five percent delta" when in the strictest sense I shoulda 
    >said "a five percentage point delta."  In context it was clear 
    >what was meant (the percentage point numbers were in the previous
    >sentence), and anyway as it turned out the percent delta by conicidence 
    >turned out to be about the same as the percentage point delta so there
    >wasn't any significant error to begin with.  It was dishonest of Dan
    >to characterize my colloquial phraseology as a "math error," but that
    >sort of thing is, er, Dan's forte if you know what I mean.
    
    In other words, after you scrape away the obfuscation, MorT commited a
    grievous mathmatical error.  But you'll never get him to admit it. 
    Just look back a few notes and you can see he's convinced himself that
    Philadelphia is really on the Atlantic Coast.
    
    Dan

    >just look back a few notes and you can see that he's convinced 
    >himself that Philadelphia is really on the Atlantic Coast.
    
    Dan, the Truth and you have just never been able to coexist, have 
    ya.  Quote where I said that Philly was on the Atlantic Coast.  All
    I said was that there are ocean-going vessel shipyards there, and 
    there are.  I'd say direct access to the Chesapeake Bay would pretty
    much do away with the canard that Pennsylvania is in the heartland.
    
    >scrape away the obfuscation
    
    The factual truth isn't obfuscation.  No math error was made.  For a
    math error to've been made a calculation must be done.  I did no such
    thing.
    
    >but you'll never get him to admit it.  
    
    I'll admit to a mistake: A poor, but common colloquial choice of words.
    
    MrT

    >Quote where I said that Philly was on the Atlantic Coast. 
    
    You didn't.  But a quote to that effect is not necessary to prove your
    error.  You were responding to a statement that Pennsylvania doesn't
    have an Atlantic Coast with a correction pointing out the "ocean-going
    vessels" near Philadelphia.  Honest and correct procedure would have
    required you to admit the lack of an Atlantic Coast without the obvious
    obfuscation.
    
    Dan

    That would only hold if TTom hadn't fallaciously implied that having
    a_Atlantic Coast were a membership requirement of the Almost Close
    Conferece.  
    
    No wonder you're a_ACC fan, Dan, when you take me on rhetorically
    that's where you inevitably end up: Almost Close.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom

MrT is right. I made up that whole thing about the ACC rejecting Penn St
because Pennsylvania does not have an Atlantic Coast. Most people knew
that but I apologize if I misled anyone into thinking that anyone had any
first hand information on this subject or knew why the ACC never wanted
Penn St.

In fact, the only schools that the ACC has ever gone after - Virginia,
Georgia Tech and now Florida State - accepted the invitations. So the 1-0
was also wrong; it's 3-0.

TTom

>I made up that whole thing about the ACC rejecting Penn St
>because Pennsylvania does not have an Atlantic Coast.
    
    Yeah, I knew that.  But that didn't stop MorT from trying to prove that
    Penn. has an Atlantic Coast.   He convinced himself, anyway.  That is
    before he rapidly tried to convince everyone that he never tried any
    such thing.
    
    Dan

    Would somebody explain MorT ????
    
    Thanks

With all the expansion and realignment of conferences, it seems like the
Metro conference will disappear, especially if South Carolina gets a spot
in the SEC.  If the Metro does disappear, I would hope that the Big 10 
might pursue Louisville as the 12th team.   It would further strengthen the
basketball league and their football team is making progress to the point
where they could at least compete with the lower third of the Big 10.

It seems like such a logical choice, I don't know why they aren't pursuing
it now.   Geographically, it fits well.  I'm not familiar with them 
academically, though.

    >MrT... trying to prove that Pennsylvania has an Atlantic coast.
    
    Quote me, you pathological fibber you.  The only thing I tried to 
    prove was proven: that PhillyDelphia has a naval installation etc.
    and that therefore culturally the state fits TTom's fake implication
    that in order to qualify for the ACC you must have a_Atlantic 
    coastline.  Proof that that's not true: The Almost Close pursued
    Penn State, and they nearly got them!
    
    >Would somebody please explain MorT
    
    As with all such attempts, this is example of Dan's attempts at
    humor, and as usual not only is it unfunny, nobody even gets it.
    
    re: Mr. Douglas Ross
    
    Steel smarting about the alleged book defacing job?  Heh heh.  You
    mess with me again buddy and I reveal just exackally what that book
    was.
    
    But I disagree with you: Let's go for SyrExcuse.  Their gridiron squad
    is creditable (Jim Brown, et al), they have the top talent in hoops
    except for Gougetown and Star Heel U., but most of all they would bring
    us the much needed NorthEastCorridorCircleJerk television demographics.
    
    Louisville would buy us nothing.
    
    Big10 Tom

    >...PhillyDelphia has a naval installation etc.
    >and that therefore culturally the state fits TTom's ... implication
    >that in order to qualify for the ACC you must have a_Atlantic 
    >coastline. 
    
    Somehow, MorT has used this word "culturally" to imply that a naval
    installation is equivalent to an Atlantic Coast.
    
    The evidence is staggering...
    
    Dan

>    But I disagree with you: Let's go for SyrExcuse.  
    
    If the Big10 does go after Syracuse then we might finally get to see
    them go head-to-head with the ACC.  (Only MrT, whose emotional tirades
    and laughable "objectivity" earned him the name MorT (tm), from MorTon 
    Downey Junior fame, believes the ACC actively courted Penn St.)
    
    Anyways despite public declarations to the contrary I'm of the opinion
    that the ACC might be trying to even out at 10 its number of conference
    members, and Syracuse seems to be on the short list.  (I know somebody
    who knows somebody who works in the Tech athletic department and
    apparently they think the Orange will be joining the ACC.)
    
    Stay tuned.  If SU jumps (a big if, granted) it will tilt the
    competitive balance of college hoops conferences toward the ACC
    by a significant margin.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    And speaking of Geographical Gaffes...
    
        >and I've never made a geo error
        >in here, and that you guys keep grasping for straws only underlines
        >how desperate you are to get over.
    
    Well, looking back for quotes, I grasped and found this gem from MorT's
    keyboard:
    
    >...I said that Philly was on the Atlantic Coast.  All
    >I said was that there are ocean-going vessel shipyards there, and 
    >there are. I'd say direct access to the Chesapeake Bay would pretty
    >much do away with the canard that Pennsylvania is in the heartland.
    
    The Delaware River, the one which flows by Philly empties out into the
    Delaware Bay, not the Chesapeake.  
    
    Can't you just hear the denial rising already?
    
    Dan

>    Quote me, you pathological fibber you.  

Et tu, Brute T.

TTom

    
    Minnesota has access to the Atlantic via the St. Lawrence Seaway!
    Minnesota should be in the ACC!
    
    Indiana....Notre Dame....
    
    T-Bone
    

    Philadelphia lies on the banks of the Delaware River.  The Delaware
    River empties into the Delaware Bay which, in turn empties into the
    Atlantic Ocean.
    
    The Chesapeake and Delaware Canal cuts across the "throat" of the State
    of Delaware about 20 miles south of WIlmington.  It links the Delaware
    River with the Chesapeake Bay in Eastern Maryland.  Thus, a ship on the
    Delaware *can* get to the Chesapeake without going down to Norfolk. 
    There is a size limit on the ships, though.  Ocean liners and oil
    tankers and aircraft carriers can't make it through the canal.  Fishing
    boats and small merchant vessels can get through.  The Canal divides
    Delaware into Upper and Lower Delaware.  Of course, the Upper snobs
    referred to it as "Slower" Delaware.
    
    Philly is home to the Philadelphia Naval Yard.  Most of the World War
    II "mothball" fleet is there.  Philly has also gotten a nice share of
    the SLEP work over the last 15-20 years.  "SLEP" is the program to
    refurbish older ships into newer models.
    
    Thought you'd like to know ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    >the evidence is staggering...
    
    That what?  That you are a pathological fibber?  Yes, yes it is.
    I never implied or stated that the city of Philly has a_Atlantic
    coast (I used to sell in downtown Philly some in my Joisey days,
    guess I've been in Philly, oh, maybe 50 times or so.  Drexel has
    a purty heavy punkR college radio gig, btw).
    
    >hear the denials coming...
    
    Finally, after all these years.  FINALLY, a geographical mistake
    from MrT.  Sorta takes the pressure off the frustrated vexed befuddled
    get-MrT-claque don't it.  Almost.  For, if you read a careful reading
    of my text shows that I protected myself and left a_out, not having the
    time to refer to a map, I guessed, salt water boats, you know, that 
    sort of thing, so my wording read, "I'd say that the fact that..."
    
    I WOULD say.  Not, "I did say" or "I am saying" but (if I had referred
    to a map and confirmed) "I WOULD say."  Close but no cigar, schneid.
    
    You get a_E for effort, though.  As in EGREGIOUS.
    
    HAA.
    
    >Minnesota should be in the ACC!
    
    Now that's stretching it a little too far ain't it.
    
    MrT

    >FINALLY, a geographical mistake from MrT.
    
    Ya see!  A confession, of sorts.  Good thing the truth doesn't require
    a confession, because MorT doesn't offer up many of them, despite the
    huge number he owes.
    
    Yeah, I had to endure the usual immature pack of personal insults, but
    MorT doesn't offer this file much else, so it all washes off in the
    end.
    
    Except for his  frequent grievous mathematical errors and geographical
    gaffes, of course.
    
    Dan

    Oh quit with the crying jags willya.  Your PathoFibbery clogs whole
    directories with hair splitting debate, and all of it based on premises
    every bit as fake as your conclusions, and that's a mouthful.
    
    I've never issued you a personal insult, I've only held up a mirror for
    you to see yourself clearly.  That you come away insulted by the image
    confronting you ain't my problem.
    
    Now, "MorT" is intended as a personal insult, ain't it.  
    
    The day you get away from billing fluffed-up opinions as fact will be 
    the moment people see you doing something besides twisting the Truth
    PathoFibbing and ratholing otherwise worthwhile discourse.
    
    MrT

    YOu tell MrT.
    
    JD

    Gee MorT, you just can't stand it when I catch you making things up,
    can you?  You should know that I let most of your "truth-stretching"
    just cruise right on past me without comment.  It's only when you
    insist that your nonsense is true and try to harm other's reputations
    that I take the time to correct you.  I understand it makes you bitter,
    but such bitterness really doesn't become you.
    
    Dan

    Ok, let's get down to it: QUOTE where I claimed there was a_Atlantic
    coast in Phillydelphia, as you false claimed I claimed.  If you fall
    silent, we'll quietly sweep this latest episode under the rug with your
    latest tacit admission that Mr. PathoFib got outta his cage and did you
    up again...
    
    MrT 

    re: .-1
    
    We played this game.  You lost.  As I showed, a quote was not necessary
    given the context of your remarks.
    
    Dan