Conference 7.286::sports_90

    Like Mike Heiser clearly stated, it's baseball season, middle of the
    summer and all the other major sports are on vacation, so that's why
    the diversion to non-sports-related conversation.  Yes, this is a
    sports bar, always was and always will(?) be.  Go into a sports bar
    right now, and most of the people in there will be talking music,
    books, religion, and just about anything else, along with some
    baseball........  And, when you think about it, the junk noting has
    been down, as long as you don't consider unsports related stuff junk
    notes.
    
    Regarding controversial topics, I agree that, as long as it isn't
    hurting anyone personally, and it is considered to some as a sport,
    then it belongs in ::SPORTS.
    
    I'm enjoying the heck out of ::SPORTS lately.  I've cut down my junk.
    Hate to see it take a "homogenous" direction.  And just think, the Donk
    fans return in about a month......  :-)
    
    Hawk

I think that the discussions in here might be inane, beside the point,
argumentative and/or boring, but hardly prevocative. Someone's suggestion
to another to take it to SOAPBOX has been in SPORTS longer than I have.

There are a lot of social issues around sports that get very little play
in here. Like the PGA championship being played at an all-white club.

In here free speech is exercised by those that engage in a given 
discussion and by those that request them to stowe it, cool it or shuff
it.

TTom

I set my original note in here hidden.

After some discussion, it became evident that the controversy I was
referring to is a *highly* sensitive issue.  Not wanting to add fuel
to a fire, nor create anymore indigestion for the person handling
the problem, I set my original note hidden.


So, with that, I'll pose an interesting question:

	When do you think baseball will have its next .400+ hitter?

'Saw

    I don't think baseball will EVER see another .400+ hitter.  The
    quality of pitching has risen at a much faster rate than the quality
    of hitting in the past decades.  
    
    The pitchers have gotten to good and the game has gotten too serious
    to see another .400+ hitter.  There will always be players who will
    flirt with it, such as Brett in the early 80's, Boggs in '87 and
    Dykstra this year, but getting a hit 4 out of 10 at-bats is just
    too difficult.
    
    The Wizard

    re: sports bar = bunch of drunks talking crap
    
    While I understand your reasoning for saying this, Jeff, you shouldn't
    stereotype a sports bar as that.  Heck, how can drunkards hold the
    types of intense conversations we've engaged in here lately?  :-)
    
    Also, I honestly say that you've done a great job as mod, and hate to
    see you resign, and ask you not to.  Think about it, this conference
    has come a long way since the "shake-up" about a year ago.  Don't let a
    few incidents turn you off.  Besides, I know the pressure you're under,
    getting hitched and all.....  :-)
    
    Hawk

    I've enjoyed some of the digressions lately.  My favorite has been the
    discussion of WWII and the role of the US in that conflict that came
    out of the World Cup notes.  If it wasn't for some of the digressions,
    things would get boring.
    
    I don't consider the discussions about books or music to be the
    problem, even if they may not be enjoyable.
    
    I think where we cross the line is when we attempt to be funny about a
    person's physical differences, or cross the line from humor to racism
    or sexism.  We all know each other and we know not only when we're
    joking but that you also have to have a thick skin to participate in
    this conference.  For the regular readers, that's not a problem.  For
    someone who doesn't read the conference regularly, it can be,
    especially if that person is a part of a minority.  The difference that
    makes that person part of the minority is not funny to that person.  If
    that person is offended enough then this conference is going to be
    reported to the authorities, and may be shut down.  Think of the
    implications of that before you write.
    
    I need this conference.  I admit it, I'm a junkie.  I've made lots of
    friends in this conference who I never would have met has this
    conference not existed.  My life would be a lot poorer without all of
    you.  It really helped me through a very bad time in my life about a
    year ago and it provides a great source of comic relief everyday.  (it
    also gives me a chance to show off how smart I am but that's beside the
    point.)  :-)  I'd be broken hearted to come back from vacation and find
    that it had been shut down because of something stupid someone wrote.
    
    I'm pleading with all of you - think before you write.  Being bland and
    offending nobody may not be much fun, and I think it's turned our
    politicians into plastic, but it's a heck of a lot better than having
    nothing at all.
    
    John

    re.8   Great note!!!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

Thanks, John.  Your note should be entered in note 1 and be mandatory reading
for everyone.  Well stated, as always.

j.

    But John, can we still make fun of your silly haircut?

    I'll side with Jeff and the other moderators on the direction of
    this conference.
    
    Yes, this conference has always been loose, that's a fact.  Spirited
    discussions have abounded.  Name-calling between fans, such as bronco
    fans and raider fans has always been prevelent.
    
    However, the cries of "It's always been like this" are to me, hiding
    the problem.
    
    SPORTS hasn't always been like it is now.  This conference used
    to have sports content.  Now, every topic, every note, degenerates
    into a Schlep his Spohs topic.  
    
    I'm guilty of junk-noting, of that I've never denied.  However,
    the caliber of jokes in this note has deteriorated to the gutter.
    The continual references made to certain players, such as Bernie
    Kosar, I find offensive.   There's a difference between calling
    someone Mr. Ed, which to me conjures up a humorous image, expecially
    give Elway's teeth, and calling someone a (blank) as Kosar is. 
    That doesn't conjure up humour, not any hint of creativity or
    imagination.   It's gutter level humour.  
    
    The side topics, or the 'open discussions' are stale also.  The
    same topics keep coming up over and over - dwarf tossing, corn husking,
    full-contatct parchesi.
    
    
    The whole concept of the SPORTSBAR is also off-base.  EASYNET doesn't
    need another SOAPBOX.   And I know, if I don't like it, I can leave,
    I don't have to read it - but like baseball, I enjoy it, but not
    as much as I once did.
    
    In closing, I'd like to thank Jeff, Mac, Jeff R., etc., for being
    moderators and putting up with all of this.
    
    JD

>    I need this conference.  I admit it, I'm a junkie.  I've made lots of
>    friends in this conference who I never would have met has this
>    conference not existed.  My life would be a lot poorer without all of
>    you.  It really helped me through a very bad time in my life about a
>    year ago and it provides a great source of comic relief everyday.  (it
>    also gives me a chance to show off how smart I am but that's beside the
>    point.)  :-)  I'd be broken hearted to come back from vacation and find
>    that it had been shut down because of something stupid someone wrote.


Amen!

I know what you're saying bro', because SPORTS helped me through a bad
time too.  I'd hate to see it go.

I have a plethora of opinions on controversial subjects.  But controversial
subjects are where the ice gets the thinnest, and we must take care to
tread lightly, and always put our opinions in here in a manner which
means no disrespect.  If we do that, then we can discuss controversial
issues in a way in which all people can participate.

I'll go further and say that if something someone say offends you, then
personally, I think the proper way to deal with is it to be polite when
you retort.  It gives your retort credibility....

Valuing Differences or Valuing Diversity, or whatever the kinder gentler
words are these days is a good concept.  We should all remember however
that this concept embodies *everyone*.  If we are going to value the
differences of all the unique and diverse cultures of people who participate
in these conferences, we must also be prepared, as adults and as people
who believe in the rights that our Constitution guarantees us, to value
the differences of those whose views may be very distasteful to us.


I'll reiterate what others have said, please think before you write,
especially if we're on the thin ice of controversy...

'Saw

    re.8 
    I totally agree with you that everyone should think before they write.
    I also feel however that the person who was so outraged at the
    controversial note,  blew it out of proportion after he got his initial
    impression of its substance.  I read the opening again after reading
    the reply.  While it was a little coarse in tyring to be funny, it was
    clearly not making fun of the group in question, rather it was being
    sarcastic about the event at hand.  While there may be a thin line in
    interpretation here, I think that we should also think before we SHOUT
    JERK, RACISM, AND DELETE THIS NOTE.  I am a fairly new reader of these
    notes.  One of the first things I noticed (besides the abundance of
    interesting digressions), was that just about everybody would engage in
    good natured ribbing during the course of sports discussion(it was the
    norm here).  In this case, the opening remarks were not prejudicial.  
    It was a valid topic as far as sports go(I've heard about it on the
    radio enough).  In the future I think that we should all be more
    sensitive about what(how) we write, and the possible offense that could be
    taken with it.  In this case, I think it was just a misunderstanding of
    what the sarcasm was being directed towards(the act of hurling not the
    little people themselves).  We should also take care not to be too
    sensitive to what others write either.(everyone gets carried away once
    in a while).   I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone; I'm just
    calling it as I see it.  
    
        Jeff,
    First, good luck with the wedding.  If your fiance is as pleasant (not!)
    as myu sisters were before theirs you'll need all the luck you can to
    force out the " I do" at the old ceremony.
    
    I hope that you stay on as mod, but I also think that you have many
    valid gripes.  We have to be more responsive to mod interventions that
    are often just brushed aside.  It' not too tough to move discusions
    elsewhere when they get way off track, or to keep to subjects at hand.
    But I still like the junk notes. 
    
    
     Tom 

    In the 4 years since I've been hanging around in here, this file has
    never been so useless.  Yes, I do my share of junking but I couldn't
    care less about what books you've read, your musical tastes, or the
    hot babes you lust over.  (Geez, sounds like I'm talking directly to
    the King of Junk Notes himself, Frank).  I check in here because I don't 
    have time to participate in th Sox, Bruins, baseball, etc conferences.
    Sometimes the best notes are the Yankee/Sox debates, the Bronco
    bashing, JD's notes about Boston teams (you're just jealous, JD (-:),
    and all the notes by Chris Knorr, Mr. T and Dan... even though I
    hardly ever read them through and the gOWhalE notes.  Oops, now I'm 
    rambling....
    
    If the book/music/tv show/veterans notes have to continue, why not
    set up ONE note devoted to DIGRESSIONS ONLY.  That way the next unseen
    button won't get worn out.  
    
    BTW - I'd love to see a controversial, sports related, topic. 
    
    Karen
                                                
      

    Ok, the scene is now set to have JoJ come in here and blast everyone on
    being wimpy.....  :-)  :-)
    
    Maybe a "Non-Sports-Related Digressions" topic should be set up for
    those times that compell us to talk sex, music, sex, book, sex, sex,
    religion, sex, and sex.  :-)
    
    And Karen, leave my buddy FrankWa outta this!  :-)
    
    Hawk

   I think I was the latest to bring up the SPORTSBAR concept. 

   The reason is because in many respects, that's just what this is like.
   Sports bars which I have frequented are not a bunch of drunks sitting
   around talking crap. The people there share at least one thing in
   common (no... not drinking. I know a number of people who either don't
   drink, or drink such miniscule amounts as to be unnoticeable, yet still
   go to the sportsbar), and that common thread is a love of sports. They
   play sports, watch sports, and talk about sports. However, if they want
   to tell a non-sports related joke, or recap a movie they saw, or argue
   about the relative merits of Heavy Metal groups, they're not told to go
   to a different establishment. Sports is what brings them together
   initially, but it's not the only thing allowed.

   That's what SPORTS has been like. The main thread is sports, with
   various sidebar conversations (Junk Notes). Sometimes the sidebars
   outnumber the actual sports talk. Late July and early August is one of
   those times, if you care to check the history. That's when it happened
   last year. Certain noters flounced out of the conference in a towering
   snit. Frankwa went cold turkey and tried not to say the KB words and
   forswear Junk Noting. Luckily, calmer heads prevailed, football season
   rolled around, and all was right with the sports world.

   So now we're at it again. It's deja vu all over again!

   I agree re: remarks made about controversey. Discuss is okay... use a
   little tact. Jokes are okay... cool it on the smut. Sidebars and
   friendly kidding around are okay... it's one of the things that most
   noters mention as the main reason for their presence in the file. I
   mentioned once before that I thought it might be a good idea to start
   new notes(topics) when a `discussion' gets going in a note which is
   inappropriate: so when a discussion on what constitutes real chili gets
   going in the Celtics note...  somebody should just start an `Official
   Sports Chili' topic, and keep the discussion going. People that want to
   bash the Celtics wouldn't have to wade through a lot of chili
   discussion, and the people who wanted to talk chili wouldn't have to
   read all the crap notes about how they shouldn't be talking chili when
   other people want to use the note to bash the Celtics and talk about
   drugs. When people in the Chili topic start talking about what brands
   of beer sweating Heavy Metal Groupies drink, then a topic should be
   spun off `Official Beer And Sweat In The Land Of Heavy Metal'. Then
   nobody would be upset about sweat in the chili. People who aren't
   interested in the topic do NEXTED UNSEEN to the next topic. This should
   make everybody happy (except for the people who aren't happy unless
   everyone else thinks exactly as they do). It's basically an agreement
   to start exercising a little consideration for the folks who want to
   stick strictly to sports by moving sidebars into their own topics, and
   those folks exercising a little consideration by not griping about
   nonsports topics, and not coming in and talking about girlymon soccer
   in the damned chili topic!

   I think it'd work. It'd still be fun, and would probably be a lot
   better for all concerned.

   Mike JN

    You'd never have a case if you took me to the big "P," Frank.
    
    I know somewhere in here you said you were the biggest junk noter.
    And you've also, in a round about way, said that this conference
    hasn't been about sports since you've been here.
    
    Anyway, I knew you'd get your dander up when you read my note. 
    I wasn't kidding but I should have left the "King" part out. 
    
    Although, I must say, when you do note about sports, it's some of
    the best stuff in here.
    
    

    Hey Hawk, how'd you know what I was thinking? All the preceeding
    replies (except hawks) are wimpy cop outs. It's gotten so I'm afraid to
    discuss anything in here for real because someone is always running to
    personnel over it. Look at this...you guys are all apologizing for
    stuff and you don't even mean it. 
    
    Geez people, lighten up and learn to smile a little. So we make fun of
    your funny haircut, or velour shorts, or crew team....big deal. No one
    means any harm. I'm just glad I'm not uptight about being the brundt of
    a joke once and a while. The only time I can think of when I was
    seriously pissed was when Frank accused me of liking the Scorpions.
    
    I know if that Manly Man whom we all admire, /Don, were here he'd agree
    with me. Of course, I am his idol.
    
    JoJ
    

   JoJ also follows the `Up With People' group all over the country!

   Eclectic taste is one thing.... but that's just plain kinky!

   (Apologies to all the kinky people who might interpret my remarks as
   disparaging of their lifestyle)

   Mike `So..... nobody wants to talk about chili, hey?' JN

    Mike JN, getting asked to take your discussion to a relevant conference
    is not like getting kicked out of a SportsBar.  First off, very few
    bartenders would kick a paying customer out of his bar because he
    didn't like a topic under discussion.  If you are asked to discuss
    chili in the CHILI conference, it's not like you have to go across town
    to do so (like you might have to if kicked out of the bar).  About a
    half dozen key strokes will get you there.  The Net offers just about
    all of the diversity you could ask for.  I see no reason to duplicate
    it in a single conference.
    
    The baseball, american football, and soccer conferences were started as
    a direct result of junk noting in SPORTS.  There were people who really
    wanted to discuss sports, and judging from the number of participants
    in those conferences I question the reference to the "majority of
    noters want it this way" in here.

    I can remember when the sports file was mostly about sports. The best
    example of non-sporting noting is the Cleveland notes. A lot of garbage
    with no real content. Sport Jokes is alright as long as the jokes
    stay there. I prefer to read about FACTS and real information and not
    wether Bernie Kosar has a hangnail. I'd rather read about what the
    Yankees are doing about the future then read about Clemens vs whoever.
    Everyone kids a little but do we really need 3 notes about the world
    cup of soccer?
    
    This is my personal opinion, and before you tell me about using the
    next seen key, new noter are looking in here every day and reading some
    of this file.... Then leaving because of the true LACK of sports talk.
    If you want to talk about who is the hottest babe then go to
    WOMNANOTES, I'm sure you fine that most of the regular writers
    would love to talk to you.
    
    REK

    I heard JoJ is a closet "Air Supply" fan.
    
    
    JaKe
    

>new noter are looking in here every day and reading some
>of this file.... Then leaving because of the true LACK of sports talk.
    
    and I'm sure just as many are staying for the same reason...like I did.
    
    	--dan'l

    Hey Mac, I have an idea...we could have the noters pay the moderators.
    That way, as in your "paying customer" scenario, we'll have no reason
    to suggest that they leave the conference. Unless they become totally
    obnoxious...ya know, like Hawk. 
    
    JoJ

   The gist of my note was not so much about whether or not non-sports
   topics should or should not go somewhere else (although I mentioned
   it), but that when a conversation gets sidetracked for any length of
   time... about anything: Bengal discussion in the 49'ers topic,
   Shakespeare discussion in the Bears topic, Football discussion in a
   baseball topic, or beer discusion in the Sports Jokes topic, it would
   be better all around to either take the discussion to the appropriate
   topic in SPORTS (if there is one)... or to start a new topic...WITHIN
   THIS CONFERENCE. We've had a Trial topic (and a lot of people had fun
   with it. Those that didn't easily ignored it), and a lot of other notes
   that - strictly speaking - aren't really SPORTS. When a sidebar
   discussion gets going, people want to discuss it with their `note
   friends' in here... not in WOMANOTES or SOAPDISH.

   My overall point is that if we manage things with a little
   consideration (and it's not difficult to start a new topic), we'd have 
   the best of both worlds, and less strife and finger pointing.

   Make Sense?
   Mike JN

    Mike -
    
    I tend to agree with you, and see this as the compromise position which
    enables those of us here for the junk notes (and I'm one of them) to
    co-exist more happily with the more intensely sports-oriented.
    
    Believe it or not, I've seen this late July/early August phenomena
    twice before.  (I was read-only for a *looong* time.)  Part of the
    plethora of 'junk' is simply a seasonal by-product.  Part of it is
    cyclical - the junk note noise level gets too high, folks start to
    complain, and things steady out after a bit.  Part of the
    phenomena is that most of us are incredibly stressed out, and junk
    noting, both reading and writing, serves as a pressure-relief valve for
    many of us.  I've been able to track fairly accurately the general 
    corporate angst levels by tracking the quantity of 'junk' here.
    
    To all - may you find peace and comfort here and elsewhere.  Remember,
    at the end of the day it's only a game - the really important stuff is
    elsewhere.
    
    A&W 

    re .30:
    
    Good points; also, perhaps the "junk" notes are more noticable since
    most of the serious baseball talk is now taking place in
    ASABET::BASEBALL and not in this conference.  I suspect the ratio of
    "serious" notes will increase once football season gets rolling.
    
    
    py
    

>>I suspect the ratio of "serious" notes will increase once football season gets
>>rolling.

You do?  Now that would be a first.

    
    I've been busy lately, but I see it's time for our "annual pre-NFL
    training camp what's wrong with SPORTS?" discussion.  Sorry I missed
    it.  THat means that next week, just like the swallows returning to San
    Juan Capistrano, the Bronco fans will be back in here.  Oh boy.  Ras
    should begin noting again soon, too.  Next on our agenda:  Mets fans
    talk about Darryl being the MVP (lasts until the 2nd week of Sept.),
    Cowboys fans say this is THE year they turn the corner (with a surprise
    visit by Jim Bob Dallas Denver Chiscago Washington Johnny Most Crews).
    
    That should take us up to football season, after which we get the
    "annual post-NFL season what's wrong with SPORTS?" discussion.  
    
    
    Bruce, official calendar caretaker of SPORTS

I have to agree that opening ASABET::BASEBALL has made the junk notes
in here seem more prevalent.   But ASABET::BASEBALL is exactly what I
thought OURGNG::SPORTS should have been like.   If someone out there
could open a BASKETBALL conference, I think I would delete SPORTS from
my notebook and never look back. 

I don't subscribe to the "SPORTS as a bar" excuse.   SPORTS.NOTE should
be about SPORTS... and not just stats.  I never have worried about the
notes that blast players or teams as long as reasons are given.  People
can moan about Clemens, Boggs, Worthy {!}, Bird, etc. as long as they 
try to support their position.  

Anyone out there have the space to support a hoops conference for 
sports talk about that subject?

>         <<< Note 312.34 by GOOBER::ROSS "Chynna Phillips is mine!" >>>
    
    Ditto on the BASKETBALL conference!

For once, Mr. Ross, I completely agree with you -- a basketball
conference would be FANtastic!!!

Laker_Ken

    If that's the case, we might as well start one for FOOTBALL too ....
    The NFL conference seems kinda water-down for my taste.
    
    In any case, I'd hate to see SPORTS shut-down, but there is less-and
    less SPORTS being discussed, and I hate to say this, but it's getting
    boring.

    re .38 (Doc):
    
    They've recently renamed the NFL conference AMERICAN_FOOTBALL and
    expended it to include college football discussions...however, I find
    the sllloooowwww access time (the conference is based in Sweden) to be
    a big drawback.
    
    
    py

    I've long been an advocate of a SPORTS notesfile to be utilized to
    discuss sports!!!  After 3 or 4 years in here, I still get irked at the
    use of 'Fakers', 'Septics', and all the other names designed to insult
    teams or piss off fans.  And although some of the junk notes are truly
    humorous, I could easily live without them!!  However, I put up with
    the junk-noting because there is not a viable alternative available to
    me.  I read the NFL file....and fear that that will evolve into a
    mini-SPORTS notesfile.....lots of emotion and little substance.
    
    I'm all for a change in SPORTS to seperate the junk from the sports so
    that EVERY noter can subject themselves to what they wish to read, and
    NOT be subjected to whatever others choose to write.
    
    
    Nelly

    
    >    I'm all for a change in SPORTS to seperate the junk from the sports so

    No change necessary.  There are no guidelines as to what is "junk"
    and what is substance.  We make up our own minds.
    
    >    that EVERY noter can subject themselves to what they wish to read, and
     NOT be ubjected to whatever others choose to write.
      
    After we make up our own minds, we press the appropriate keys.
    
    Dickster
    

    If a person is going to BLAST someone to a degree which it would be	
    offending. Should do it in a more private matter. Such as, sending it
    to them via personel mail. By doing this SPORTS file will not be 
    jeopardized. Is it possible for noter to get banded?
    
    
                            WILL THE THRILL
    

How's about creating a SPORTS note that is Members Only.  All members would be 
graciously entered upon completion of a small form that basically leaves all 
weapons on the table. Fist fights only, if your offended pick up your node 
and ask to be removed from the members list. This would not be a good place
for RAS I, RAS II or RAS III to note but it should clear the Mods from those
not so nice discussions.  

Jeff

    
    	Good idea Jeff!  Would we be able to scan the members list?
    	*****This is not aimed at anybody in particular****  I'd be
    	interested in knowing how many of the folks who chastize the
    	junk noters will sign up for a conference like this.  
    
    	I think creating separate topics for *junk* would not work.
    	For instance, somebody mentions they were at the Red Sox game
    	and had a great hot dog.  Then, someone else replies that the
    	hot dogs are better at Comiskey Park.  Before you know it, we
    	have a hot dog rathole that started in the Red Sox note.  The
    	people who would like to *next unseen* may miss some informative
    	notes in between the hot dog bashing notes.  This scenario plays
    	well if you assume the Red Sox note is a *junk* note to begin
    	with  :^)
    
    	Claybone

   I think a new topic would work fine. That's what I've been saying. Once
   interest is shown in a topic outside of the subject, start a new topic.
   The Official Ball Park Dogs Topic. People who want to discuss it go
   there, and people in the Red Sox topic aren't upset.

   Mike JN

    This is the most asinine thing I've seen all day.  All week.
    
         A members-only conference?  For sports?!?  This is some kind of
    joke; right?  I can just imagine the proposed criteria for membership.

    	Yeah, it would be along the lines of "Please sign me up." followed
    	by an automatic "OK, as long as you can stand the junk notes ;^) ".
    
    	Claybone

Actually, you're all voicing a complaint that the Notes structure itself
causes.

The structure of VAX Notes is relatively flat and not very deep.  

What is needed is more and deeper dimensions.   We need replies that can spin
off down their own branch.  For example, ...

Topic =>>	1.0		2.0		3.0
Reply =>>	1.1		2.1		3.1
Sub-reply =>>	1.1.1		2.1.1
		1.1.2
		1.1.3
Reply =>>	1.2		2.2		3.2
Sub-reply =>>	1.2.1
		1.2.2
Reply =>>	1.3		2.3		3.3
Sub-reply =>>			2.3.1
				2.3.2

So, the RED SOX topic could indeed kick off a HOT DOG thread but it could go
deeper and be out of the way of the other important stuff like "Where's Margo
When Wade Needs her Most?"

So, maybe instead of forcing all these nice human beings into conforming to the
software, why don't we make the software fit the human beings ???

I know, I know, way too radical ...

Bob Hunt

re -1

>>So, maybe instead of forcing all these nice human beings into conforming to the
>>software, why don't we make the software fit the human beings ???

Earth to Bob!  Earth to Bob!  Come in Bob!!  This is DIGITAL, Bob.  We don't
do things like that here!

Seriously, I think you have a good idea there.

Anyway, I've been here about a year and the junk notes don't bother me at all
even though I don't understand some of the recent topics, names of stars, etc.

I've been appalled to see some readers send in nasty little notes reminding
people to get back on the topic, smarten up, act their ages, etc..  Would have
thought people have better senses of humor than that, but...  If in the end
::SPORTS was to become restricted, maybe all those sourpusses should be left
out.

rick ellis

    Since I was out yesterday and missed-out on this lovely discussion, I'd
    like to (1) commend Alison for her down-to-earth reply, as usual :-),
    (2) agree with Mike JN and others who feel that if/when a topic
    sidetracks for whatever reason, have a note to slide over to, and (3)
    add my feelings that the reason that junk notes are so prevalent is
    because of the <1 year old BASEBALL conference which leaves very little
    baseball talk in here.
    
    I now leave the rest of this semi-annual cyclical mark your calendars
    what's wrong with SPORTS note to whiners like JoJ and Maybr.....  :-)
    
    Bad ::SPORTS is better than no ::SPORTS at all........
    
    Hawk

I like Bob's idea of somehow expanding the NOTES software and making
it more useful.  Bob, I know there's a notes conference on Notes, and
it might be a useful thing to suggest your idea in there.

I think I see what the problem is here.  As in real life, this conference
has many types of people.  There are people who's sh_t is wired tighter
than a fat lady's corset, who take themselves soooo seriously, and 
would never in a million years laugh at themselves.  Then there are people
who take very little in life seriously, and laugh a lot, both at themselves,
and other, most times in a non-malicious way.

Typically, a person at one extreme of the spectrum can't stand a person
at the other extreme.  What do you do in real life when you encounter
a person like that in a bar?  You move with your bunch of buddies to 
another area.

Unfortunately, you can't do that in here.

So, hey, whatever happens actually is fine with me.  I've met some 
really neat people through this conference, but if it went away,
I'd still have all the friends I've made...


Chainsaw_who_doesn't_really_give_two_hoots_anymore

    
    A members only sports file... sure... I'd like to nominate myself
    and DrM to be the charter members... anyone else interested in
    the file now?
    

>I think I see what the problem is here.  As in real life, this conference
>has many types of people.  There are people who's sh_t is wired tighter
>than a fat lady's corset, who take themselves soooo seriously, and 
>would never in a million years laugh at themselves.  Then there are people
>who take very little in life seriously, and laugh a lot, both at themselves,
>and other, most times in a non-malicious way.

Gee, I wonder which category you place yourself into.   

I think there are two types of people too.   Those who want to talk about
sports and those who want to talk about themselves.

>
> I like Bob's idea of somehow expanding the NOTES software and making
> it more useful.  Bob, I know there's a notes conference on Notes, and
> it might be a useful thing to suggest your idea in there.


	If people would use the notes conferences as they were intended
you would find that this isn't needed.

	For some reason the ::SPORTS noters think they should be able to
open up SPORTS and ntoe all day on whetever discussion they want,  wether
it be NJ politics or peoples musical tasts.  There are 6 or 7 music related
conferences already, there is already a New Jersey conference, there is already
a soapbox conference.  Instead of suggestiong more 'levels' for NOTES lets
use the levels that already exist.


	I also think the excuse 'but it's not the same ::SPORTS people'
doesn't wash.  If during the course of a discussion someone mentions 
X and someone else comments on it and says 'this discussion doesn't belong'
here I'm going to move it to NODE::X' anyone who is interested will 
open NODE::X and following the discussion.  Anyone who isn't interested
will continue to read the SPORTS discussion, which is probably the reason
they were reading that note anyway.

mc

>    I'm saying just the opposite.  Let the human beings use the software,
>    figure out what they do with it, and then change the software to adapt to
>    their behavior.

	You do have a point.  But I think this is more an issue of people being
lazy then the software not doing what the people want.  No one wants to 
open another conference and keep track of that.  If we changed the software
to adapt to peoples behavior beore long there would just be one big
notes conference, NODE::ALL_EMCOMPASSING.   You could open it, catch the scores,
read about the latest bug in VMS, get on the soapbox and bash some legislators,
find out what music Joe Smith listens to....

	mc

    The one thing that has been bothering me is the way folks are coming
    down on the moderators.  They are doing what they are supposed to
    do, and don't deserve any abuse from anyone.   And I'll say it again,
    it used to be a few places where things went wild and side discussions
    started - now it's everywhere.  
    
    Notice when the last entry was put in the scoreboard topic?  I stopped
    putting in the baseball scores cause I really didn't think anyone
    cared.  
    
    Personally, I think this note has, in many places, taken a nasty
    turn.  What used to be infrequent bashing is now a full time occupation
    - whether it be sports persons, fellow noters, or the moderators.
    
    I'm no saint, and have been a junk noter, but I do think we all
    need to police ourselves.   We're supposed to be adults, and
    professionals.  We shouldn't need to be told more than once to clean
    up our act.   
    
    This file has always sidetracked - and in many cases, the topics
    and replies have been insightful and eye-opening.   I see nothing
    wrong with heading a request to open a new topic.   I don't want
    seperate conferences for all sports because this file can't address
    the various needs.
    
    Is it really too much to ask that serious sports discussions, scores,
    questions, and predictions be allowed without it deteriorating into
    discussions on farting, home-brewing, taxes, sex, homophobia, etc.?
    
    And Bob Hunt, as usual, had a great reply to all of this recent
    mess.   And like Bob, I'd miss this forum if it was closed down.
     I've met a lot of folks through this file, learned a lot, had a
    lot of good times, and have read some of the funniest and insightful
    passages I've ever read.
    
    JD

	Been out a few days and come back to this. I've set some NOTES hidden,
some in jest, some not, Ive tried to explain my position on them, and been
met with understanding most of the time. My new job has left me less time
to actually moderate, as I have barely enough time to keep up with just reading
all this stuff. And maybe that's part of the problem. Alot of Noters open the
SPORTS Note for a SPORTS fix - meaning real information. They have to wade 
through all the sidetrack notes, and all the sidetrack replies in topics they
really wish to read, to get to any Sports info. So, a planned 2-3 minute 
excursion into SPORTS takes 10 minutes.
	Most, if not all of you, have done a good job of explaining your views.
And you've done it in much better "style" than is usually used in here. One of
the other problems is that nobody likes to be told what to do, nobody likes to
be censored, and most people don't like being singled out for anything, be it
criticism or praise. The spotlight is not a comfortable place. The moderators
put themselves in the spotlight by reacting to note, setting it hidden, telling
them to take it to another Note, or another topic. I sure don't feel comfortable
doing it, but sometimes it's necessary. The vulgarity in here lately has
reached proportions that I'm ashamed of. I'll tell offcolor jokes
along with the next guy, but I'm damn sure I know my audience before I do. Doing
it in here is akin to doing it on Nationwide TV. Think about it. ANYBODY at DEC
can open up this conference and read it. ANYBODY. If they did a 
SET SEEN/BEFORE=TODAY and read this conference on a given day, what would they
think? The reference to babes, bimbos, etc. may not be offensive to regular 
noters, but could be offensive to them or to first-time noters, and there
could be any number of them on a given day. Same with comments addressing
the masculinity of certain QBs.
	I think the idea of having a topic or two for off-line discussion is
probably OK, but it's a decision that should be made by a majority of moderators
not by one alone. Also, it's EASY to just reply to a topic and start off on
a tangent. TOO Easy. But it's also easy read that message, note the topic 
number, extract it to a file, WRITE a new topic to address the tangent, 
then reply back the the original topic stating: 
"I started a discussion on X in Topic n". Laziness is no excuse.

	It's obvious that even the moderators are hooked on SPORTS, otherwise
we wouldn't be here. No one would do THIS out of the goodness of their hearts
:^)
	Think of the big picture when you note.
	Jim M

    Hey mc, for someone who started the "separate conferences for the
    serious sports noters so that they don't have to put up with the
    ::SPORTS junk notes" movement last year, you sure are spending more
    time in here lately, especially pointing out the very things that
    prompted you to do what you did.  Don't get me wrong- I'm not bashing
    you or anything, it's just an observation........
    
    Hawk

In a sense it is, Mike.  

I can't necessarily define the sense, but it is a part of this
phenomenon known as SPORTS.  

This file is addictive, because let's face it, we're all in here for
more than sports.  Sometimes just to hear Dan and T debate something
will have me reading a topic I care little about.  Those are the kinds
of things that keep people in sports even during the lulls around
the vairious seasons.

Actually, I'm with the moderators on this one.  As one of the leading
junk noters, even I can see we've got a problem of epidemic proportions
here.  We cannot keep on the same track, or we'll be headed for
self-destruction.

I for one am trying to limit my tendency to junk note, and while
I'm not advocating a sterile, dry, conference that is totally stats
or "Jose Consecon has pimple on his gluteus maximus so will be on the DL
for a while", I am hoping that the Sports and Sports Issues content
goes up a little...

JMHO,
'Saw

    I'm glad someone reads Dan & T debate besides themselves.  During their
    "debates" and that ever so interesting trial, I had to replace my NEXT
    UNSEEN key.  Poor guy was all worn out!
    
    Mike

    It's been a while since I responded to anything in SPORTS, or started
    a new note.  Why ?  Because SPORTS has become boring.  The same people
    talking about the same stuff no matter what the particular topic at
    hand ...... everything seems to degenerate into sexual innuendos and/or
    personal attacks.
    
    At one time, not long ago, SPORTS had a terrific cross-section of
    personalities ...... folks that had strong personal opinions and team
    loyalities, but who also had great senses of humor.  Where have they
    all gone ?  They all haven't left the company have they ?  My guess is
    that they have turned to "read-only".
    
    SPORTS has also turned into a male-only conference.  I wonder why.
    
    When I first discovered SPORTS, it was a daily event that I looked
    forward too ...... logging in and scanning the topics.  It then became
    a bit thinner, in direct relation to the increase in junk notes, but
    still was worth the daily scan.  Lately, it's not even worth it.
    
    I don't think another conference needs to be created.  The existing
    software doesn't need any rewrite either.
    
    View the evolution/deevolution of SPORTS in context of ol' Adam Smith
    and the "invisible hand" of free market forces.  If SPORTS is to
    continue on its current course, and we assume the contributors to the
    conference represent the majority personality traits of the general
    Digital sports fans, then the conference is just going through the
    semi-annual self evaluation.  All will be fine.  Just as the general
    sports noter population wants.
    
    If SPORTS is taking a direction which is opposed to the general DEC
    sports fan perspective, then the conference will fade away.
    
    We determine what SPORTS will be.  One argument can be made that the
    current lack of broad participation is a good sign of the majority
    attitude.
    
    Those who want SPORTS to continue need to provide the direction. 
    Ignore those topics and/or individual replies that offend you.  Write
    others ..... stick to the topic(s) at hand.  Contribute to the shaping
    of the conference identity.
    
    I don't care for the overall direction the past 6 months, and I haven't
    done anything to change it.  But I want to enjoy SPORTS, and I will
    do my part.
    
    Greg

    
    Hawk

	Yea I'm still here and still complaining. :-) 

	This is still the only place to read/discuss all sports and sports
realated issues.  If you want to read about Tennis, Track-and-field, 
youngsters and sports,  the official screw up and embarrasment note, this
is the only place you can find them.  Of course you have to wade thourgh the
politics, beer tax, musical interests, and  literary interest discussions to
get to the 'sports' discussions.  If I wanted to read the other I would have
opened the conferences that related to them.

mc  

	

    Re: We're all in hear for more than just Sports (paraphrasing),
    
    
    'Saw,
    
    Maybe I'm the only one, but I AM in here for Sports ONLY!!  I don't fit
    into the category of 'fat lady's corset...shit wired tight' that you
    alluded to earlier.....it's just that I don't need the SPORTS Notesfile
    to provide the humor and entertainment in my life (this may come across
    as a shot when interpreting the written word.....it is NOT intended to
    be!!!).  Being an avid sports fan, I was psyched to see that there was
    a SPORTS Notesfile when I was first introduced to the 'World of Notes',
    and made it a point to check in on it daily.  I did NOT decide to start
    reading it thinking "this is probably a good place to be humored or
    entertained by topics running the gamut from Anal retention to
    Zephyr-like farts..."!!!  I also get somewhat perturbed when it is
    suggested/implied that those of us who merely want to read SPORTS 
    in ::SPORTS have deep-rooted psychological problems.
    
    It wasn't until a few months/quarters ago that someone decided to
    describe ::SPORTS as ::MEN'S_LOCKERROOM or ::BAR_DISCUSSION.
    
    I DO discuss sports in lockerrooms AND bars.....I was hopeful that the
    Notesfile would be a third forum....not an attempt to mirror the
    others!!
    
    JMHO,
    
    Nelly
    

    I just hope we all get back on track.. god knows , i have been know
     to  lead the sports train off the beaten path..
    
    
    dinz
    

    
>    Maybe I'm the only one, but I AM in here for Sports ONLY!!  I don't fit
>    into the category of 'fat lady's corset...shit wired tight' that you
>    alluded to earlier.....it's just that I don't need the SPORTS Notesfile

Never said you did.  One of the biggest problems in this and other
notes files is that people have a tendency to take everything that
everyone else says totally literally.  

I was merely making a generalization (and no value judgement either) about
two typical types of people which exist at the end of an imaginary spectrum,
and how they often react in social situations.


>    Zephyr-like farts..."!!!  I also get somewhat perturbed when it is
>    suggested/implied that those of us who merely want to read SPORTS 
>    in ::SPORTS have deep-rooted psychological problems.

Again, never made that implication.  If that implication is there, then
the correlary implication is that people who don't want to read only
SPORTS have deep-rooted psychological problems also.

Me?  I'll be the first one to admit that I'm crazier than a loon.
I'll also be the first one to admit that it takes an awful lot to get
a rise out of me, and I very rarely blow my top, and most of what goes
on in here doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the real world anyway.

    
>    It wasn't until a few months/quarters ago that someone decided to
>    describe ::SPORTS as ::MEN'S_LOCKERROOM or ::BAR_DISCUSSION.
 
I always thought that most of that was in jest.  Perhaps I'm wrong,
or perhaps that's the problem.
   
At any rate, this file should have something for everyone, and perhaps
we've moved too far away from that, I don't know....

later,
'saw    

    I'll vouch for 'Saw, that he definitely is "crazier than a loon"!
    
    I, for one, will say that 'Saw adds a lot of character to this file,
    regardless of all the finger-pointing in his and others' direction. 
    Feel free to throw stones at me too......
    
    Hawk

    This discusion isn't going anywhere.  I get sick of hearing a lot of
    people responding that  they are 'read only' because SPORTS is a boring
    conference.  If it's so boring and you read it, does this mean you're
    masochists.  If all the SERIOUS SPORTS NOTERS ONLY are read only, then
    what do you expect.  Maybe your input and insight could help keep
    things on track, especially if you attempt to show that you want it to stay
    on the right track.  I've seen a lot of names in this discusion that I
    haven't seen much of before.  Be constructive in your criticism and
    don't talk like your victims of Junk Noters , although I agree (with
    myself at fault) that it is getting out of hand.
    
    TomR

    Sheesh, out a few days and look what happens!!!    8^)
    
    I remember when I used to read-only, but one thing that always was
    in mind as I read was this:
    
    {excerpted from Note 1.0}
    
    "This conference is a bit more liberal....."
    
    It does however go on to state that its goal "...is to provide a
    forum for the friendly discussion of SPORTS RELATED topics, but many
    friendly discussions get started that are not sports related.  This is
    not necessarily discouraged, but we ask that you keep it to a minimum."
    
    Signed,
    
    Have Fun,
    ^^^^^^^^
    
    Anyway, I guess my point is that maybe we have all gotten a little off
    the path (myself included) in the recent weeks.  So I will be big
    enough and apologize if I have offended anyone.  'Sorry!'
    
    Member-only conferences aren't the answer -- I've seen these
    conferences get taken away too, from people being offended.
    
    To loose sports would be the death of an institution....are we all
    too proud to admit it???????
    
    And another thing, if you have a complaint with a moderator, why not
    do it through e-mail?  No one deserves to be mortified in public.
    
    Sorry for all this drivel, but I had to get my 2 cents in.
    
    Regards,
    
    Wheel
    
    
    

    
    	How about we have a 1-900-:SPORTS note where ALL topics
    	not sports related are discussed?  If we had such a
    	note, the folks who don't want to wade through the junk
    	notes could set it permanently seen.  If there is a 
    	disagreement as to whether it is sports related, then the
    	moderators would vote on it and their decision is final
    	nomatterwhatsayyou.
    
    	Claybone 

    	
    	Oh yeah, and I miss the baseball scores you used to put
    	in JD......FWIW.
    
    	Claybone

    re: Ronald
    
    All read only noters are Jets fans...this has already been established.
    
    JoJ

    JoJ, what did you say about being a read-mostly-noter?
    
    Hawk

   There are more ladies in this conference right now than ever before.

   One of them just tried to start a topic in order to take a non sports
   related discussion out of a sports topic, and Mac crapped in her corn
   flakes.

   Mc seemed to go along with the idea that non sports 
   junknotes/sidebars/whatever should just start a new topic (when it
   tails off it could even be deleted.) 

   When you push next unseen [comma], it goes to next `topic' unseen. If
   Sports topics are kept relatively pristine, and the inevitable `other'
   discussions quickly move to their own topic.... then WHAT'S THE
   PROBLEM?!?!?

   MY OPINION:

   MODERATORS ENFORCE POLICY
   THEY SHOULD NOT DECIDE WHAT IS OR IS NOT CORRECT CONTENT UNLESS IT IS A
   POLICY CALL.
   IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO START AN AARDVAARK NOTE.... LET `EM.
   IF THERE'S NO INTEREST IT'LL DIE... DELETE IT.
   IF THERE IS INTEREST, NONINTERESTED PEOPLE CAN SKIP RIGHT OVER IT.
   PEOPLE ARE MAKING A BIG DEAL OVER SOMETHING THAT IS EASY.

OK, guys.  Enough with all the sarcastic comments in every note.  I'm getting a
bit irked reading them.  This is not a heavily moderated conference.  Perhaps
we should make it one so you realize how good you have it.  

The reason for all this in the first place was our childish disparagement of a
group of humans.  We screwed up big time; almost cost us the conference.  The
issue of things not being sports-related never really came up except by some
noters to other noters.  So now you guys are taking issue with something that
you imagined. 

I'm asking you nicely to leave it alone.   I'd like everyone to just realize
that a valuable lesson has been learned.  If we go against Digital policy,
we're not going to save this conference by saying "Well, it's just like being
in a bar".  Frankly, when they knock on my door and ask for this conference's
head, I'll give it to them gladly and I'm not sure I'd miss it.  And frankly
(no offense to anyone named Frank or any hotdogs) this conference should be
renamed to OURGNG::WHINING.

Can we get back to sports now?

j.

Jeff, I don't think anyone is intending any sarcasm directed at
the moderators, or maliciously at any other noter.

Have you ever been riding in a car, almost had a whizbanger of
an accident, turned to the person next to you, and began laughing
hysterically?  I think the remarks are that same kind of "we just
had a close call" kind of thing.

I personally have no issue with the moderators, as I've publicly
stated.  Nor have I an issue with any other noter.  

And, when you come right down to it, if you look at the notes for
the past couple of days, the junk notes have been down tremendously.

So a few of us put in come clever, witty remarks designed to poke
fun at ourselves and are stupid (almost) blunder...  I don't think
it's whining.

No contact, no foul....

And as the man in the funny suit behind the plate says....Play ball....

chainsaw

    
    So, what is the problem here...I read only a few files here...
    C L E V E L A N D... also, I read the ones that play my team, but
    only when the series between the team are ongoing.  I expect to
    get hurassed most of the time...and don't mind it sence I do some
    hurassing too.  Its nice to know when I rile some feathers.  This
    notes file is fun and I think that those that it offends should
    just delete it from their file!  We are not forcing them to read.
    I don't read most topics in here anyway.  For those that are read
    only.....you stink!  Its like butting in to someone elses business.
    
    This file is not that bad.  In fact, I need this file sometimes!
    It helps releave the stress!  It makes me work better!  
    
    	Hal
    

    
    >    I don't read most topics in here anyway.  For those that are read
    >    only.....you stink!  Its like butting in to someone elses business.

    Hal,
    
    You know by now that I ain't one to be prissy, but I didn't see
    a smiley after this.  I started out as a 'read only' noter, and
    I'm sure a lot of others did too.  This is not the way to welcome
    readers into an open conference.
    
    Dickster
     
    

    Jeff, should've write-locked this baby after .80.......
    
    Hawk

    
    Sorry DH...but...what I ment was that I don't think that is right
    for people who are "read only" to critisize us who do.  
    
    Sometimes this file does get out of hand, but, you have to take
    it with a grain of salt.  There are times that taking the subject
    off the original path is good.  It cools people down for one, ya
    know.....like, as I heard before........
    
    		before you cut someone down...say something nice...
    
    
    	ex:  Gee Jake, how was that B-B-Q at your house last week?
    		then, I hear the ole Bubble Head is giving free bees
    		in the locker room.  He He He    
    
    
    	Hal
    

    I think that if everyone agreed with everyone else then this
    conference would be finished. I like to throw a jab at someone else's
    favorite team. Or player. It's healthy to disagree. I used to look
    forward to Ralph Caso's notes. He wasn't eloquent. He wasn't 
    grammatically(?) correct. But, dammit, he was ready to defend his
    position, even if it was silly to the rest of us. We could have blasted
    Ralph more than we did, hell, he even sent me a nasty VAXMail message
    once. But we need to keep this conference above board and cut out
    the garbage. Just what is garbage?? If I knew then I'd apply for
    moderatorship. :-) Lets have some fun and BTW, 'Saw is my favorite
    author.
    			Rich
    

Hear! Hear!

I agree with Rich, in a big way. 

Perhaps I believe to strongly in the inate goodness of man, but
in my time in here I can honestly say I've seen very, very few 
instances of maliciousness.  RCASO would occasionally send me
mail for bashing his views, but I never bashed RCASO as a person.

I think we should all learn to take what's said in here with a
big grain of salt.  This file is a very small (even minscule)
event in this world, and should be kept in perspective.  If folks
want to get upset, they should get upset about important things,
like holes in the ozone layer, the savaging of the world's rain
forests, and the menace of pollution.  If those things get a good
hold, we'll have no more PLANET.

I enjoy this conference.

Rich, thanks for the authorship compliment.  If I ever get published,
I'll throw a big party with the bonus check and invite you all....

[big smiley comin' at ya]
Chainsaw

    I can see Hal's point, its kind of like the people who don't vote
    and then complain about who's elected!  If you don't involve your-
    self in some way, shape, manner or form that can change things
    you shouldn't strike down those who do.  Remember, no matter how
    small we are, we all have the power to change things we don't 
    like!
    
    Wheel

    I've never seen it said anywhere in Notes Policy or Etiquette that you
    must write to a conference to be part of it.

Yeah, but there's another side to that.

I'm a RON in some technical conferences.  The main reason for that
is that there are certain subjects that I don't know a lot about
and don't want to appear as an a__ in the particular conference.

However, part of that RON mentality might stem from the fact that one
or two noters in that conference will jump all over someone who isn't
as smart, or as up on the technical stuff.

Now look at SPORTS.  We are in here, we're used to this conference.
We're used to the bashing that goes on (and on and on and on).
How many people ever get brave enough to take the plunge?

Who was that girl that was in here recently (Mandy or someone-or-other)?
She didn't stick around long.  She had some really zealous opinions, but
she had a right to say them, and we did bash the living ____ outta
her, when you come right down to it.

Everyone has a right to an opinion about this or any other conference,
regardless of whether they're a RON or not.  If we had a say in how this
conference is run, or policy, then the voting analogy would hold....but
we don't....

And remember, as one of the mods said, what you say in here you might
as well broadcast on the evening news, since you never know *who* will
be reading in here....

'Saw

my .89 was in relation to .87, not Mac's .88

HTH,
'Saw

    'Saw,
    
    My point is, each RON has the power to change things that are said
    in here -- if you don't like what is being said, write it in.
    Or if you don't want to, send a personal e-mail to that person.
    I think the majority of us in here do have the capability of
    being adults.
    
    Mandy expressed her opinions strongly; which was her individual
    personality...something that should be respected.  If you refer
    back to Note 20.103 (which you wrote) you were telling HER how
    to note!
    
    Wheel
    

    Ok, you all whined enough about this...at the risk of getting Mac and
    Jeff mad at me, I'm write locking this topic.
    
    Nearly 100 whining replies...get back to work, will ya. The company is
    losing money and you folks are worried about the "state of the sports
    conference".....
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    JoJ

re .91:

never said I wasn't partly too BLAM.  But I haven't blasted any noter
the way I've seen some people blasted in other conferences.

And besides, my remarks in that note were a humorous attempt at
a comeback.

RON's can comment if they like.  But, people for certain reasons,
prefer to remain RONs.  Just like some people don't like speak
in front of a group....


re JoJ:

With all due respect, I don't think we're whining.  What we're doing
is discussing the way we interact in this conference.  That people
are still talking about it shows that people are interested in what
is said in here, and how it's said.

Water seeks its own level, and so, I think, does SPORTS noting.

Because of the increased consciousness in here, there's been much
less junk noting, more sports discussion, and we haven't had a 
note set hidden, in, what, a few days 8^)

I think a little self-examination is good every once in a while....

'Saw