Conference 7.286::sports_90

    
    Starting Tackle Matt Darwin is set to have his knee scoped shortly.
    He will not play the next two weeks, but the Birds say that he might
    be back for the playoffs.
    
    Related Iggles notes:
    
    Buddy Ryan and the Eagles players have been boycotting the MNF
    broadcast team. They supposedly won't talk to any of the three for
    some negative comments they made during the Chicago/Phila game earlier
    in the year.
    
    The Eagles will be locking the windows in all luxury boxes so that
    they cannot throw snowballs either. There was allegedly some debris
    thrown out of those babies, too. 
    
    If the Eagles win on Monday, They will have one home playoff game,
    either the Wildcard or the Division Semifinal. This game is one
    that the Birds might slip up on, especially with the Saints treating
    this on like their playoff game (particularly because it's on national
    TV). They probably can't run against the Saints defense, but Randall
    should have a field day against the NO DBs. The Birds defense should
    shut down the running game pretty well, and I think that the front
    four should be able to put significant pressure on Fourcade and
    pressure him into mistakes. But, in the back of my mind, I remember
    last year when the Eagles were on a streak going to play a Cleveland
    team with two hurt QBs, and they came out as flat as a pancake and
    got blown out. The Eagles play to the level of the opposition, and
    Monday should be no different. Look for the Birds to squeek by.
    
    Dennis
    

Eagles 20
Saints 30


New York	11 4 0
Philly 		10 5 0

    
    The Eagles certainly didn't come out breathing fire, and it burned
    them. They didn't get the turnovers, and when that doesn't happen,
    they don't win. The officiating left _much_ to be desired, and had
    an effect on the outcome, but that's not why the Eagles lost. Had
    they played the kind of game they are capable of, the three bad
    calls that had a direct effect for 21 points wouldn't have mattered.
    They once again couldn't put the ball in the end zone from the two
    yard line, and it burned them again. Oh well, I guess I'll have
    to be a Raider fan this week.
    
    Dennis
    

    Damn I hate it when the Eagles lose ...
    
    Lots of hitting, decent running game, a few big pass plays, no major
    mistakes on special teams ...
    
    So why did they lose ??
    
    Gotta give credit to the Saints.  Pure and simple.  They played
    inspired football and John Fourcade played a great game.
    
    C'mon Raiders, beat the Jints.
    
    Bob Hunt

Well Dennis and Bob, if we're going to be Raider fans next week, there's only
one way to explain last night.

			   IT WAS THE REF'S

	;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

	Jack

P.S. By the way, the Eagles really didn't look that good last night did they.
Congrat's to the Saints they really played well.

      The Saints are much better than their 8-7 record. I think they
    started 1-4. That makes them 7-3 over their last 10 games. The
    Eagles are a good team, they were just ripe for picking last night.
    Turnovers are what really killed them. For ten weeks, Buddy has
    been establishing the run, last night he didn't even try. I know
    the Saint are very tough to run on, but its even tougher to run
    if you don't at least try it once in a while. The Eagles will be
    in the playoffs. Who knows, maybe the Giants will give it to them
    again this year.
    
                                      Steve J.

    
    I didn't see the refs take any earned points off the board last night.
    They did make a beauty of a face mask call though.

    One thing about Philly - turnovers caught up to them.  Did you know
    that in a 4 week period prior to last night's game, teh Eagle offense
    had fumbled *17* times, but had only lost *1* to the opposition.
    They've been coughing up, but Lady Luck has been smiling at them
    - much like Cunningham's fumble last night that bounced to Byers
    for the first down. However, for the most part last night, Lady
    Luck was looking the other way.
    
    JD
    
    

    THAT was beyond a doubt the poorest officiated game I can ever recall.
    Fortunately the incompitence in calls and judgement by the officials
    probably evened out and did not decide the game. Rarely will you see
    any ref slamming out of me, but that was really bad. 
    
    BoB

    re: Hoot
    
    Well, maybe you don't think the penalty to Jerome Brown was bad,
    but the NFL did. Art McNally told the Eagles that there was no penalty
    on the play and they should have gotten the TD.
    
    Dennis
    

    
    I agree with BoB that there wer lousy calls on both sides.  I can't
    say that the outcome would have been different with better officiating.
    I really liked the intentional grounding call on the defense. 8^)
    
    
    Bruce

   LA Rams  14  0  0  7    21
   Philly    0  0  0  7     7

   First Quarter:  LA  Ellard 39 pass from Everett,Lansford kick
                   LA  Johnson 4 pass from Everett,Lansford kick

  Fourth Quarter:  Philly Toney 1 yd run, Ruzek kick 
                   LA     Bell 7 yd run,Lansford kick

  A-57,869 , 8,000 "No-Shows"

                         LA     Philly
                         --     ------
  First Downs            19         14
  Rushes-Yards       36-144      20-95
  Passing               265        211
  Return Yds             15         54
  Comp-Att-Int      18-33-2    24-40-1
  Sacks-Yds Lost       2-16       2-27
  Punts                7-37       9-36
  Fumbles-Lost          1-1        6-2
  Penalties-Yds         1-5       4-35
  Possession Time     33:38      26:22


  Rushing: LA      Bell 27-124
           Philly  Sherman 9-44

  Passing  Everett     18-33-2   281 yds
           Cunningham  24-40-1   238 yds


  Happy New Year,

  Edwin

    Bummer.
    
    The Rams had superior offensive and defensive game plans.  Their
    execution was superior and their intensity was superior.
    
    Other than that, it was an even game.	:-)
    
    The supposedly quiche-eating, sunshine-loving, Hollywood beach boys
    from La La Land put a licking on the big, bad Eagles.
    
    The Eagles need to learn to shut up and play when it comes to crunch
    time.  This is the second year in a row that they had the bigger mouths
    before the game and the bigger feet in them afterwards.
    
    On the technical end of things, the Eagles desperatly need a "go-deep"
    receiver.  Mike Quick's bad knees this year were the pins that burst
    the bubble.   No deep threat meant a predictable offense.  Cunningham
    was not the same quarterback after Quick left.   The quarterback who
    whipped 5 TDs against the Skins in Week 2 disappeared after Mike Quick
    left for Lake Tahoe and a date with a surgeon.  Either Quick needs to
    come back as good as ever (doubtful) or the Eagles need to find a gem
    in the draft (even more doubtful) or they need to pick up a "Plan B"
    guy who can go deep (probable).   Right now the defenses key on Keith
    Jackson and Keith Byars with double and sometimes triple team coverage. 
    Inside the 20, they key on Cris Carter and force Randall to throw into
    coverage.  There is no deep threat and it shows.
    
    The running game is fine.  No 1,000 yard back but 3 backs (including
    Cunningham) over 500 apiece is solid production.   I'd love a stud back
    like Riggs or Bell (who wouldn't?) but yards are yards and the Eagles
    ground them out this year when they needed to.
    
    The defense is also in good shape.  The defense got the Eagles to the
    playoffs this year; as opposed to 1988 when it was all offense that got
    them there.   The pass rush is superb, the linebackers are decent, and
    the secondary is above average.
    
    Special teams are average.  Roger Ruzek and John Teltshick are good
    kickers.  Coverage teams are fair.  Return teams need improvement.
    
    Buddy Ryan has a year left on his five year original deal.  He should
    be signed to an extension.   He is not a *nice* person.  Of that there
    is no doubt.  However, he has built a perennial playoff contender and
    that is what they play these things for.  He has produced.   Some may
    not like his style but his results are what counts.
    
    Not the way I would have liked it to end but a satisfying year.
    
    Bob Hunt

Bob, Ryan says he ain't reporting unless he gets a new contract. I hope
he gets better prepared for that confrontation then he did for the Rams.

TTom

           
    The Eagles still seem to play like a young, emotional team- a
    macrocosym of their coach.  Until they learn to play steadier, with
    less ups and downs, they won't make it to the Super Bowl.  They
    certainly have the talent for it.  I wonder what would happen if
    a coach came in who was a steadying influence and took over the
    Eagles?                                                      
    
    
    Bruce

    Young, emotional team?  If they are really that, things may be better.
    There was *no* emotion for them on Sunday, playing a playoff game in
    front of a home crowd.  Incredible.
    
    I say their problem is the inconsistency and deficiency of Randall
    Cunningham.  Until he can prove himself as a pocket passer with con-
    sistency, don't expect the Eagles to be much better.  The problem with
    the Eagles now is that Randall Cunningham is the best they have to
    depend on offense, and that is not good enough.
    
    Charles

    
    Charles, Randall isn't a bad pocket passer he definately has more
    touch than Elway or Marino. He desperately misses Quick. Without a
    deep threat the opposision is able to play zones and leave people
    at the line to shadow Randall and control his running as well as
    his passing game. Keith Jackson misses Quick even more....
    
    mike

    re -2                      
         
    The two quick TD's by LA took all the pregame hype/emotion out of
    the Eagles.  Once LA made those easy scores, Philly was gone.
    
    Bruce
    

I say it every year.  John Robinson is a great coach.  Anyone have
his record since he came to the Rams?  They are almost always
a playoff team,  and with personal changing the way it has, Robinson
deserves the credit.  He outcoached Ryan badly on Sunday.

Dan

    re .19:
    
    John Robinson's regular season record as Rams' coach is 66-45 in seven
    seasons; his playoff record is 3-5.
    
    
    pu

       Not exactly Lombardi if you ask me!
                                    Denny

    
    
    3-5 in the playoffs and as good personel as anyone.  Care to clarify
    your statement, Dan?   Robinson looks like a Bo- good regular season
    record, lousy post season.
    
    
    Bruce
    

>    3-5 in the playoffs and as good personel as anyone.  Care to clarify
>    your statement, Dan?   Robinson looks like a Bo- good regular season
>    record, lousy post season.

5 playoff years in 7 seasons is what I'm looking at.  The team has
almost completely been overhauled in that time frame and he
still keeps them there.  And I think its absurd to call it as
good personel as anyone.  It certainly isn't.  Granted, he hasn't
won the Super Bowl, but a ton of coaches can say the same thing.
I just think that the way he resuscitated the Rams after
Dickerson, so quickly and so consistently, puts him as one
of the top 5 coaches in the game...year after year.

Dan

    
    Look at the # of draft picks he's had the past few years, and then
    tell me the Rams don't have the personel to compete.  The problem
    with JR is that every good draft pick is used to draft another RB
    or OL.  In a 7 season timeframe EVERY team has had a major overhaul.
                                                                      
    5 playoff early exits in 7 seasons is what I'm looking at.  A few
    teams have matched LA's recent record.
    
    
    Bruce  

Right on the nose Bruce. The Rams lost next to nothing in going 
from Dickerson to Bell. ANY average RB could run behind that 
offensive line be it Dickerson, White, Bell, Delpino or whoever 
is next.

daryll

    re -1                       
    
    You forgot Gaston Green

    >Look at the # of draft picks he's had the past few years, and then
    >tell me the Rams don't have the personel to compete. 

Bruce, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.  
A few notes ago you said he had as good personnel as
anyone.  Now you're saying it's "good enough to compete".
Well, I agree with that now, but not always.  There have been
a few teams that didn't belong in the post-season but
got there anyway.

 >In a 7 season timeframe EVERY team has had a major overhaul.
 
 >A few teams have matched LA's recent record.

A few, a very few.  San Fran for one.  You might say Cincinnatti,
but that's stretching it.  Redskins?  Consistent winning is very
tough.  Consistent playoff teams are few.

    >The problem
    >with JR is that every good draft pick is used to draft another RB
    >or OL. 

Is that a real problem?  He consistently has a good defense and
a good running attack.  No matter what the level of talent, his
running schemes must be about the best in football that they
keep on with the success no matter what the personnel.  And
he's swung a few great deals to keep the team going.

I think he's one of the best coaches out there, who gets nearly
no national recognition.  His worst problem is he hasn't won
the bowl, but to consider that he's been laboring in the division
that's been totally dominated by the 49ers, you realize what
he's up against.  There's a load of teams that are doing worse
than John Robinson.

Dan

    John Robinson prior to this year was 58-44.  Rams have had the
    following records under him:
    
    1983	9-7, 1-1 in playoffs
    1984        10-6, 0-1 in playoffs
    1985        11-5, won division, 1-1 in playoffs
    1986        10-6, 0-1 in playoffs
    1987         6-9, no playoffs
    1988        10-6, 0-1 playoffs
    
    I'd certainly take that record.
    
    John

>    >Look at the # of draft picks he's had the past few years, and then
>    >tell me the Rams don't have the personel to compete. 
 
>Bruce, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.  
>A few notes ago you said he had as good personnel as
>anyone.  Now you're saying it's "good enough to compete".

Let me finish the sentence for you Dan:  "good enough to compete with
anyone."  Don't talk to me about that talking out of both sides of your
mouth stuff or I'll bring up your recent stance on Panama.
     
>Well, I agree with that now, but not always.  There have been
>a few teams that didn't belong in the post-season but
>got there anyway.
 
    What teams?  Until the last couple years he always had Dickerson,
    a horse who any coach should be able to ride to the playoffs.
                                
> >In a 7 season timeframe EVERY team has had a major overhaul.   
>  >A few teams have matched LA's recent record.
                                
>A few, a very few.  San Fran for one.  You might say Cincinnatti,
>but that's stretching it.  Redskins?  Consistent winning is very
>tough.  Consistent playoff teams are few.
 
    You mentioned the 3 that came to my mind.  You can add Chicago in
    there, although they've done something LA hasn't.

>    >The problem                                     
>    >with JR is that every good draft pick is used to draft another RB
>    >or OL. 
 
>Is that a real problem?  He consistently has a good defense and
>a good running attack.  No matter what the level of talent, his
>running schemes must be about the best in football that they
>keep on with the success no matter what the personnel.    
                                                        
    His running attack is one of the best because all he drafts are
    OL and Rb.  Why on earth did he draft Gaston Green (in what, the
    2nd round?) when he was at best going to be the #3 tailback?  His
    defense has been inconsistent, and the great running game disappeared
    once he decided he couldn't handle the offense anymore and handed
    the reigns over to Zampese.  If you watched much of the Rams the
    last 4-5 games (except for perhaps the Pats game) , the running game 
    has been absent.

>                                                        And
>he's swung a few great deals to keep the team going.

    He (was it him?) swung a GREAT deal with Dickerson, and blew it
    by messing up the draft picks he got.  With all the early draft
    picks this team should have run away with the division, especially
    considering the injuries the 49ers had.    
                                           
>I think he's one of the best coaches out there, who gets nearly
>no national recognition.  His worst problem is he hasn't won
>the bowl, but to consider that he's been laboring in the division
>that's been totally dominated by the 49ers, you realize what
>he's up against.  There's a load of teams that are doing worse
>than John Robinson.
  
    No recognition?  He gets all he deserves.  He constantly lauded
    as an expert on the running game and a good defensive coach.  His
    worst problem is he hasn't done squat when he has gotten into the
    playoffs.  The NFC West has been dominated by the 49ers because
    JR is a lousy coach who has helped the 49ers to dominate it.
                                                                

    Bruce

    I had never considered Robinson that good of a coach, because of
    his love affair with the running game. It meant a lot of fast exits
    from the playoffs. However he has apparntly learned that USC football
    doesn't cut it in the NFL, and the Rams have a explosive, exciting
    team. I've revised my estimate of the man upwards. 
    
    Nevertheless, he can't be placed th upper echlon of coaches until
    he at least gets to a Super Bowl. The Eagle Defense won't get him
    the a Super Bowl (although it is a nice concept), until he gets
    a few more linemen.
    
    As for the Eagles, I can't believe that Charles Mok can say the
    Cunningham is a problem. Hell, he got many of his passing yrads
    this year from the pocket, with a 3step drop, and short ball control
    passes.
    
    The problems, as many have said, is that without Mike Quick, the
    offense has lost the bomb. Too many times, I've seen RC have a 25
    completions-for-200-yards game. His avg. per attempt and competion
    is one of the lowest in the league, because he throws a lot of 5
    yard completions to complement the running game, and because the
    Eagles need an O.C. as badly as the Pats.
    
    DrM

>    What teams?  Until the last couple years he always had Dickerson,
>    a horse who any coach should be able to ride to the playoffs.

The year before Dickerson got there, for instance.  The year that Dickerson
left, for instance.  Last year, for instance.  I stand corrected.  John Robinson
has coached the Rams into the playoffs 6 times in his 7 years there.
Find another example of that.  He doesn't even come close to matching
personnel with teams like the 49ers, Giants, Bears of this same era.
When you said "as good as personnel as anyone" I thought you were
implying that he had personnel like those teams, which is just wrong.  
Apparently you are recanting that, so I take it back.  

    >His defense has been inconsistent, and the great running game disappeared
    >once he decided he couldn't handle the offense anymore and handed
    >the reigns over to Zampese.

In my opinion, his defense is always good and sometimes great.  I'll bet the
season-by-season stats will bear this out.  What provokes you to charge
inconsistency?  Also this accusation of the disappearence of the great
running game is groundless.  When Dickerson left, he took Charles White
who was a decided disappointment in the NFL and well over the hill, and
made him the NFL's leading rusher.  He took Greg Bell, who was a diver and
blocker with Buffalo and made him into 1000 yard back.  If that's the disappearence
of the running game, I'd like it to disappear over here on the Jets.  Zampese
was brought in to nurture Everett, which was an extremely wise move and
has paid off good dividends.

   >He (was it him?) swung a GREAT deal with Dickerson, and blew it
   > by messing up the draft picks he got.

Where was he drafting and who did he draft?  I don't remember.  The team's
been in the playoffs each of the last 2 years (how many teams can claim just
this part?  Not too many) so I guess this "mess up" hasn't destroyed the team
yet.

    >worst problem is he hasn't done squat when he has gotten into the
    >playoffs.  The NFC West has been dominated by the 49ers because
    >JR is a lousy coach who has helped the 49ers to dominate it.

Well, that's just ridiculous, and I would hope a 49er fan would know better
than to make such a claim.  You're taking credit away from the 49ers so you
can make some weak claim that Robinson is a "lousy" coach.  Lousy
coaches don't go to the playoffs 6 times in 7 years.  Excellent ones do.

Dan

    There were many good drafts for the Rams the past few years, many have
    been very productive.  Some are obtained with Dickerson related drafts,
    some their own, but altogether a very high grade.  Standouts include
    Fred Strickland who is so instrumental now in the defense as a
    linebacker (a second rounder two years ago), Willie Anderson, Aaron
    Cox, Darryl Henley this year, and a few other names on defense that
    escape me now also starters.  Some names that hass not produced yet but
    could soon:  Cleveland Gary of Miami and Gaston Green of UCLA.  
    
    Robinson or the Rams organization hardly messed up their drafts since
    the end of the Dickerson era.
    
    Charles

Gaston Green really ?

I thought Delpino was going to be the next featured back for the Rams. Actually
I thought Delpino was going to take over this year but it appears that Bell
was performing to well to be removed from the featured spot.


metz

If making it to the playoffs is a yard stick of measuring how good a
coach is, where does that put Glanville, having made the playoffs 3 years
in a row?

TTom

    Re:.35 
    Let him make the playoff 3 more years in a row.
    
    Re:.34  Rams backs
    Seems like some people think Cleveland Gary may get some more minutes
    maybe starting with Delpino in the backfield.  Gaston Green looks like
    a disappointment and seems to fumble the ball often.  Cleveland Gary
    however his the better size and build and much better hands coming out
    of a passing school (Miami), and he can be used much the same as
    Delpino.  But Greg Bell seems rejuvenated lately and could be there a
    little longer than thought, but Bell fumbles a lot and his receiving is
    poor.  Receiving coming out of the backfield is real important for an
    offense like the Rams with a quarterback like Everett.
    
    Sorry for further diverging from Eagles stuff.  I guess nothing
    interesting there.
    
    Charles

>            -< Bo knows football.  Bruce could learn a few things. >-

    Dan, that's the 2nd or 3rd time in this discussion you've lowered
    yourself to personal attacks on me.  Football knowledge is not absolute
    and who are you to judge?  Let's keep the topic on football and
    away from soundbites, OK?         
                                                                            
>The year before Dickerson got there, for instance.  The year that Dickerson
>left, for instance.  Last year, for instance.  I stand corrected.  John Robinson
>has coached the Rams into the playoffs 6 times in his 7 years there.
>Find another example of that.  He doesn't even come close to matching
>personnel with teams like the 49ers, Giants, Bears of this same era.

    I thought Dickerson and he arrived at the same time.  The year
    Dickerson left he was 6-10, so take that club out of your bag. 6
    times in 7 years and never in the playoffs!  He must have some kind
    of personnel to be able to do that.  Joe Walton could get the Rams
    to do as much JR has, and they both have about the same imagination
    on offense.
     
>When you said "as good as personnel as anyone" I thought you were
>implying that he had personnel like those teams, which is just wrong.  
>Apparently you are recanting that, so I take it back.  
    
    I AM saying that his personnel is as good as any other team's in
    the league.  Why do you have such a hard time understanding that?
       
    
>          Also this accusation of the disappearence of the great
>running game is groundless.    
           
    Most observers have said that the Rams' running game has disappeared
    the last few weeks.  Go back and look at the stats from those games.
    
>                                When Dickerson left, he took Charles White
>who was a decided disappointment in the NFL and well over the hill, and
>made him the NFL's leading rusher.  
                                      
    If White was well over the hill, how could he be the leading rusher
    in the NFL?  That doesn't make sense to me. 
    
>                                      He took Greg Bell, who was a diver and
>blocker with Buffalo and made him into 1000 yard back.  
     
    I believe that Bell was already "made" into a 1000 yard rusher in
    Buffalo.

>        If that's the disappearence
>of the running game, I'd like it to disappear over here on the Jets.  
                                                                   
    Apparently you misunderstood me again.  I said the running game
    seemed to disappear at the tailend of the season.
                                                     
>                                                           Zampese
>was brought in to nurture Everett, which was an extremely wise move and
>has paid off good dividends.              
 
   Zampese was brought in because JR couldn't figure out how to develop
    a passing game and was getting ripped for it in the press.  Everyone
    else by that time had already figured out that Everett could be
    the next Marino if he was given the right offense- an '80's pro
    style offense that featured passing, not a variation on the USC
    tailback.
   
>Where was he drafting and who did he draft?  I don't remember.  
                                                              
    He has had multiple 1st round picks quite often lately.  And look
    what he's done.  
    JR:"I've got Charles White and Greg Bell, who should I draft? Gaston
    Green!! Now there's a good tailback.  OK, Now I have Bell and Green,
    who should I draft?  Cleveland Gary!!  OK, now I have Bell, Green
    and Gary, who should I draft?  Frank Delpino!!!  You know, I can't
    figure out why that Gaston Green hasn't turned out to be very good.
    Bell and Delpino seem to be getting the yards.  And that Gary guy
    hasn't done much either."
    
    I think JR still thisnks he's at USC with a 90 man roster and that
    he has plenty of room for 8 running backs, and yet he can't figure
    out why he doesn't have any more DL on his roster.
                                                      
                                                              >    The team's
>been in the playoffs each of the last 2 years (how many teams can claim just
>this part?  Not too many) so I guess this "mess up" hasn't destroyed the team
>yet.                                                 
    
    I said before, several teams.  A 2 year string of being in the playoffs
    (especially as a wild card) in not much to brag about.
                                                          
                                                          
>Well, that's just ridiculous, and I would hope a 49er fan would know better
>than to make such a claim.  You're taking credit away from the 49ers so you
>can make some weak claim that Robinson is a "lousy" coach.  
 
    If Robinson's team had won the SF game IN LA in the two preceding
    years (possibly 3) they would have won the division.  JR lost those
    games, after he had beaten SF in SF.
                                        
>    Lousy                              
>coaches don't go to the playoffs 6 times in 7 years.  Excellent ones do.
                                        
    Excellent coaches win their division occasionally.  As a Jets fan,
    I can understand you not knowing much about that (what have they
    won the AFC East once, maybe?).  The Rams _regularly_ were the NFC
    West champs before Robinson, in the 70's.  As it is, not until this
    year did the 49ers have has many NFC West Championships as the Rams.
    Seems like the Rams pretty much cleaned up until then, but of course
    JR was at USC then.
                                        
                       
                       

    re  .19-.37 
    
    Isn't this note supposed to be discussing the Eagles?Face it,Randall
    Cunningham is not t great QB he was hyped to be. Quick was a tough
    loss,but "great" quarterbacks adjust.
    
    To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen: "Randall,you're no Joe Montana"

    Couldn't agree more.....  I said it at the begining of the season and 
    I'll say it again now.  Randall is not now nor never will be anything
    but a average QB, PERIOD.....  And he damn sure ain't worth 3 Million
    a year !!
    
    Big Game

Another indication of greatness is how much the other team has to focus
on the player. In the case of Randall Cunningham, most defenses are
singulary built around him.

To me that puts him above "a average QB, PERIOD...".

TTom

    Think what you like......  I still say that Randall will be riding
    the pine in Philly in less than 2 years.  He really ain't that good.
    Wake up and Face FACKS (tm)  Randall Sips
    
    Big Game

    
    Re. John Robinson:
    
    Seems to me that Robinson has done pretty much the same thing Chuck
    Knox did in L.A. and eventually got fired for: delivering a solid team 
    every year but letting his conservatism get the best of him in the
    playoffs.  Maybe it's the Rams' destiny or something.  The one time
    the Rams did make it big was when the mediocre Ray Malavasi got 
    ahold of a red-hot Vince Ferragamo and rode him to the big one.
    
    I'm reserving judgement on Robinson for now, though, because I think
    the Rams have an excellent shot at beating the Giants and a reasonable
    one at going to the Super Bowl, believe it or not.  All in all, I think
    Robinson's done a decent job but is still a couple of big wins away
    from joining the big boys.  His fundamental philosophy is far preferable
    to the emotional up-and-down, crash-and-burn styles of the Ditkas,
    Ryans, Glanvilles, et al, though.  I long for that kind of stability in
    New England, but then again we haven't seen anyone like that since
    Chuck Fairbanks was around.
    
    glenn
      

    Funny but I don't really see Buddy Ryan as a "crash-and-burn" coach. 
    Dick Vermeil was definitely a "crash-and-burn" guy.   He flamed big
    time after the 1982 season and quit for good.   Ditka is the true
    "burner" these days.  Remember his heart attack last year ???
    
    Ryan does preach a "take no prisoners" approach to the defensive side
    of the football.  He's been teaching the "46" for some time now.   It
    is primarily designed to disrupt the high-flying quarterback.   It is
    also designed to force turnovers.  It does both very well with the
    right players.  The "46" needs aggressive, attacking, emotional
    defensive football players.
    
    This year he was pretty conservative on offense.  Losing your deep
    threat does that to you.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    You're right, Bob.  I probably shouldn't have included Buddy Ryan in
    that list yet.  I do have a feeling that for one reason or another he
    won't last long, though...
    
    glenn
    

    Won't last long at what, Glenn ???
    
    As a head coach ???  Perhaps.  But very, very, very few head coaches
    last for very long anyway.   Landry, Shula, and Noll are the
    exceptions, not the rule.
    
    Buddy Ryan was an assistant coach under Weeb Ewbanks with the Jets,
    under Bud Grant with the Vikings, and under (barely) Mike Ditka with
    the Bears.
    
    I'd say he has overall longevity but certainly no record of sticking
    with one team for very, very long.
    
    Bob Hunt

Probably the biggest thing about Buddy Ryan that I dislike (and I'm 
not out to bash him) is the fact that I have never seen the man
go across the field and congratulate the opposing coach, or at the
very least shake hands.

I think we all forget sometimes that SPORT is typically a microcosm
of the human condition, the struggle, the conflict, the emergance
victorious from long odds.

When a game is over, the gracious and sportsmanlike thing to do (win or 
lose) is to cross over the field and shake hands with your opponent --
whether or not you dislike the guy/gal.

I'm sorry, I just don't hold with Buddy's attitude....


Chainsaw

>  I thought Dickerson and he arrived at the same time.

I'm quite sure you're wrong.  I'll put the club back in my bag, thank you.
What's more, it is very impressive to trade away the club's only 
great player and see your team right back into the playoffs, even if
its the next year.  Its a very commendable coaching job, whether you
want to call it "lousy" or not.  Regarding the "personal attacks" which I
guess you *never* make, when a coach puts a team into the playoffs
6 times in 7 years, and prior to that his record of success was at least 
as good if not better, and someone calls him a "lousy coach" I will distrust
the reviewer's knowledge before the coach's ability.  Simple as that.

    >I AM saying that his personnel is as good as any other team's in
    >the league.  Why do you have such a hard time understanding that?

Because it's a crock of shit, and I have a hard time believing that anyone
would make the argument.

Dieter Brock was what?  As good as Joe Montana?  Nearly as good?  
Or not even in the same league?  The most important position on the field,
and he had one of the worst in the league, AND made the playoffs.  Again.
Why did he have Brock?  Because the guys before Brock were even worse.
Barkowski was virtually cripples.  AND he made the playoffs.  And you 
complain about the drafting of linemen.  Well what did Robinson do about
the dreadful QB situation (besides coach his team into the playoffs, I mean).
He traded two good linemen and a couple of picks and got himself a good
QB.  And after a one year funk, the team is back as a playoff team for two 
or three more straight years.  You can say that they had a lot of other talent,
but its still silly to compare it to the 9ers, Bears or Giants.  They had two
outstanding players: Dickerson, who had to be traded and Leroy Irvin.   

    >If White was well over the hill, how could he be the leading rusher
    >in the NFL?  That doesn't make sense to me. 

It was quite likely that if Robinson didn't scoop up his old player, that
Charles White's football career was over.  No one else was going to take
a chance on him.  He was the leading rusher in the NFL because he
was rejuvenated under a coach who understood his talents and coaches
one of the best running games in the business.  Put White on any other
team, and they probably wouldn't have given him the ball 30 times the whole
year.

    >I believe that Bell was already "made" into a 1000 yard rusher in
    >Buffalo.

Bell was an overrated Notre Dame product, who was a Buffalo first round
pick, when they were a pretty bad team.  His rookie year, they ran him to
death until he got 1000 years, so you are partially correct.  Then followed
3 straight years of declining production, and there wasn't a scout in 
football who considered Greg Bell anything more than a blocking back 
and a good guy for a goal line plunge.  Look what he's done since then
under Robinson.  

Apparently, someone with a better memory than either of us has already
recalled his drafts.  He drafts a lot more than running backs, but that's what
you seem to be focused on.  I'll bet every year, just about *every* team drafts
a running back, so your criticism that he drafts one running back a year is
nothing I'll sweat over.  In fact that's the way it is with most of your criticisms.
Care to relate what you really have against the guy?

    >I said before, several teams.  A 2 year string of being in the playoffs
    >(especially as a wild card) in not much to brag about.

How many teams have done it?  I'd say it's much better than average.  How
many teams have made the playoffs 6 times in 7 years?  Maybe 2.  As I've
said, the only complaint is that he hasn't won the Super Bowl, and no one's
really expected him to.  I find most of your complaints to hold no water, as
I've outlines in past notes and above.

   >The Rams _regularly_ were the NFC
   > West champs before Robinson, in the 70's.  As it is, not until this
   > year did the 49ers have has many NFC West Championships as the Rams.
   > Seems like the Rams pretty much cleaned up until then, but of course
   > JR was at USC then.
    
This is pretty stupid.  You are saying that the reason the 49ers are winning
the division these days is because Robinson has made the Rams worse.
You snub the fantastic talent and organization and system of  the 49ers.
I can't in the least respect anything about the statement.

Dan

Bob,

What's the verdict on Quick? Have they operated? Is he gone for 
his career? Any word?

daryll

    Mike Quick has had operations to relieve tendonitis in *both* of his
    knees.   The operations were about 6 weeks apart and were completed a
    few weeks ago.
            
    He claims he's feeling better than ever.
    
    He'll be in training camp next year.  Whether he comes back to his
    five-time Pro Bowl performances or not remains to be seen.
    
    Ryan *MUST* draft a speed burner in case Quick can't make it back.
    
    Bob Hunt

    	Buddy Ryan is my kind of guy!  John Robinson, now there's a
    quiche eater if'n I ever saw one.
    
    				/Don

    Dan,the reason why Bell, White, /Don, and you could have 1,000 seasons
    is because of the brilliance of the Rams offensive line. Case closed.
    The holes they open up, anybody can run through. A good back can
    run for 1,000 yards. A great back (ie. Dickerson), can run for 2,000.
    
    It's as simple as that. 
    
    Like I said earlier, Robinson lost a lot of points in my book, until
    he hired Ernie Zampese 3 years ago to bring LA's offense into the
    20th century. Robinson tried to play USC football in the NFL, and
    he failed. In the process he wasted the talents of Henry Ellard
    for serevral years, not to mention Drew Hill. Hillwas supposed to
    be a limited receiver. Since he was traded to Houston, only Jerry
    Rice has caught more passes for more yardage. That's when everyone,
    including Robinson, realized, the problem wasn't in the receivers,
    but in the offense. But to his credit, JR wised up, not that he
    had a choice. 
    
    As for rebuliding, he inherited a decent team. Not good, but decent,
    and he made it better. The Dickerson deal gave him a ton of draft
    picks which he couldn't have gathered any other way, and the Rams
    have done a good enough job with them to be loaded.
    
    Like JD said, when you bulid a pedestal (ie. Namath), you REALLY
    bulid one.
    
    The Doc

    Now wait a sec...regardless of Dan's political views, he is a decent
    QB. I still wanna know how Doc can play FS in a 3 on 3 game....
    
    JoJ

     I gotta go along with JoJ.  Dan is a decent QB. And on top 
    of that, he's one of the few that can drink as much beer as
    me.
    
    KGBGH

    Big Game is lame...
    when it comes to drinking beer.
    
    The devil dog who had to show Jack which truck was his after a
    afternoon/night of beer guzzling at the Dublin House.

    JoJ, it's simple, the QB can't run, so you can rush, or play back
    and try to nab a floater or two. I had mixed success with it, would
    have had even more success if I had been playing against Dan and
    his bombs - or should I say water baloons ?
    
    Doc

    Not only that JoJ, but when I got to Parker Steet, Dan was using
    a **vinyl John Elway-'autographed'** "football" !
    
    I had to go to my car, and pull out a real one !
    
    So Dan, when are we playing again ?
    
    Doc

    Jam it Steven .... I use authentic J5-V's .... you know I wouldn't
    be caught dead with a Elway football, and besides I think a leather
    Elway football is an oxmoron.
    
    After all, would that make Mr Ed a sort of cannibal ?

    Dan, you didn't tell me about the "vinyl JE football"....I'm ashamed of
    you.
    
    Couldn't ya find an old Joe Namath model somewhere?
    
    JoJ

The best ball for the money is the Wilson DUKE model.  It's leather,
will take a beating without biting the big one and feels comfortable.

If you wanna pay big bucks, you buy the NFL model.


Question for John Hendry:  Was the DUKE ever used as the official model
in NFL games?  My buddies and I are having a little disagreement.  I had
heard somewhere that it was, and at some point, the NFL model now in
use was substituted.

The NFL model btw, is slightly shorter and less pointed, making it
easier to catch off one hand....


Chainsaw_on_Pigskin

    Yeah, it was but I can't remember when the current ball was substituted
    for the DUKE.
    
    John

     Yea, thats the kind Me, JoJ and the Boys played with but
    it got "Lost" at the last game.  I wanna know which one of
    you guys stole my ball.
    
    Big Game

>The best ball for the money is the Wilson DUKE model.  It's leather,
>will take a beating without biting the big one and feels comfortable.

I agree with you, and if it was in the store, I would have bought it.  Had 
to get something, and the best one they had had MrEd's signature
on it.  That was just before the game that Doc whimped out on.  Compained
he had to do his laundry or something.

And if Doc can get anyone else to agree with his synopsis  of his
"success" as a free safety in 3 on 3, I'll start believing his football
diatribes.

Dan

>>    So Dan, when are we playing again ?    
>>    Doc

   Doc, me and a few guys are playing sunday morning at 9:00am. Dan is
   scheduled to be there. If anybody else is interested in play, come
   on down.

   We play at Hudson Riverside park in Hudson. If you need directions
   send me mail. We play every week if the weather is decent.

  Chuck

    
    I remember seeing "The Duke" model prominently displayed in NFL football 
    card photos circa 1971-72 or so.  You know, the ones where the guy's
    got his knee bent and lifted up to his waist, driving an imaginary 
    tackler into the ground with a stiff-arm in the classic All-American 
    pose.  I think "The Duke" went out shortly after that, right around when 
    Dukakis entered his first term as governor.
    
    I prefer the geniune simulated leather NCAA ball with the white stripes
    suitable for night ball, myself.  I picked one up last year at Child 
    World for $10.99 when they had the entire lot of them mispriced.  Went 
    back to buy a back-up ball the next week and the price mysteriously 
    rose to $22.00.  No, I wasn't the one who mispriced them, either...
    
    glenn

    
    Anybody wanna talk about the Eagles????
    

   re: 24.75 GRANPA::DFAUST 
    
    Ya, what do you think the Eagles are going to do in the draft?

Chuck

    As previously mentioned, The Eagles need a speedster at wide receiver
    to replace Mike Quick if he can't make it back from knee surgery.
    
    Not only do they need a burner who can run the deep sideline pattern to
    stretch the secondary, they also need him to go deep over the middle. 
    It's no secret that both Cris Carter and Ron Johnson prefer the
    sideline routes and avoid the middle.   Carter is a superb possession
    receiver who's got great hands and nimble feet.  But he's got no deep
    speed and he hates going over the middle where the big hits are
    waiting. 
    
    Mike Quick was the total package.  Deep routes, medium routes, short
    routes.  Up the sidelines, in the flats, over the middle.
    
    They could also use another outside linebacker.  Jessie Small will
    probably get first crack at the outside linebacker slot that Al Harris
    filled this year so they'll need another backup linebacker\special
    teamer.
    
    I also wouldn't mind seeing them draft some more defensive backs. 
    Waters, Hoage, Hopkins, and Todd Bell are all getting old and are
    showing the effects of their assorted bumps and bruises.
    
    And, of course, a truly reliable kicker would be nice.  Roger Ruzek
    clamed everybody down the last half of the season but who knows how
    long that'll last.  Seems like there are some kickers who are so good
    thet last forever.  Guys like Eddie Murray, Morten Andersen, Gary
    Anderson, Pat Leahy, Nick Lowery, ...   I'd love to have a young kicker
    who could mature into one of the "old faithful" types.
    
    Bob Hunt

    		The Philadelphia Eagles 1990 Schedule
    
    	Preseason
    
    Sat	Aug 11		NY Jets		7:30
    Sat Aug 18		Miami		7:30
    Mon	Aug 27		@ Indianapolis	8:00 (ABC)
    Sat	Sep  1		@ Pittsburgh	9:00 (CBS)
    
    	Regular Season
    
    Sun	Sep  9		@ NY Giants	8:00 (TNT)
    Sun Sep 16		Phoenix		1:00
    Sun Sep 23 		@LA Rams	4:00
    Sun	Sep 30		Indianapolis	1:00
    Mon Oct 15		Minnesota	9:00 (ABC)
    Sun Oct 21		@ Washington	1:00
    Sun Oct 28		@ Dallas	1:00
    Sun Nov  4		New England	1:00
    Mon Nov 12		Washington	9:00 (ABC)
    Sun Nov 18		@ Atlanta	1:00
    Sun Nov 25		NY Giants	1:00
    Sun Dec  2		@ Buffalo	1:00
    Sun Dec  9		@ Miami		8:00 (ESPN)
    Sun Dec 16		Green Bay	1:00
    Sun Dec 23		Dallas		1:00
    Sat Dec 29		@ Phoenix	4:00 (CBS)
    
	Dennis
    

        re. .78
    >> Sun Sep 23           @L.A. Rams      4:00
    
    Shouldn't this be against the L.A. RAIDERS ????
    
                                                       Carlos
    

    Nope.  NFC East plays AFC East this year.
    
    John

       Ooops! Sorry John you're right, I was previously in the Pittsburgh
    note and somehow my wires got crossed.
                                                        Carlos     

    Heard last night that the Eagles are trying to sign McMahon.
    Is there truth to that?
    
    Glenn

    re Glenn:
    
    Yes, SportsChannel reported the same thing this morning.  McMahon would
    be projected as a backup to Randall Cunningham.
    
    
    py

    Would there be compensation to the Chargers?
    
    Glenn

    >Would there be compensation to the Chargers?
    
    They wouldn't have to listen to him, or see his latest sun glasses.
    
    Dan

    Nope.  The Chargers released him and he cleared waivers.  He's free
    to make his own best deal anywhere and the Eagles don't have to
    pay him under the terms of his own contract.
    
    John

    Wonderful.  What in the world do the Eagles need Jim McMahon for ???
    
    Is it to instill that winning edge into Randall Cunningham or is it
    because His Rudeness wants to see some local press spat upon.
    
    I can't see the wisdom behind this proposed signing.  Ryan paid a steep
    price in draft picks for Matt Cavanaugh back in 1986 and Cavanaugh has
    proven himself to be a quality backup.   Where would McMahon fit in ???
    
    Buddy Ryan sure does have a soft heart for his old Chicago players. 
    He's picked up Al Harris, Todd Bell, and a few others perhaps.  Now
    McMahon may be next.
    
    Ryan would probably have an orgasm if Mike Singletary ever wanted to
    leave the Bears.  Not that I wouldn't mind having Singletary in the
    middle ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    Maybe the writers on LA Law will sign him....

    RE: Cavenaugh
    
    Matt is getting old.  Wasn't he Dorsett's QB at Pitt in the mid-70s? 
    At least McMahon is a bit younger.  
    
    Cavenaugh will be remembered in my book as one of the best career
    second-stringers, along with Don Strock.  Steve Young may make this
    category too unless SF unloads him to someone who could use him as a
    starter.  
    
    	--dan'l

    Matt came to Pitt the year after Dorsett and they played together
    in 1974, 1975 and 1976.  Matt also played in 1977 and was the Patriots
    #2 draft choice in 1978.  Matt played with the Patriots for 5 years
    and battled Steve Grogan for the starting QB job for most of that
    5-year period.  This was back in the days when Steve was being blamed
    for everything and it was said that he should go to Iran during
    the hostage crisis because he was the only person on Earth who could
    overthrow the Ayatollah.  Matt is perhaps best remembered for being
    the holder when John Smith kicked the game winning field goal in
    the 1982 "snowplow" game vs Miami.  Matt was traded to San Francisco
    in 1983 for an 8th round choice in 1985 (which became Milford Hodge)
    and a 7th round choice in 1986 (which became Ray McDonald, WR from
    Florida, who never made the team).  Somewhere along the way, Matt
    ended up going from San Francisco to Philadelphia.
    
    Matt was a good short range passer who never had the arm strength
    to really go deep, and he was always being cheered for to go into
    the game and then when he went in, the fans would start yelling
    for Grogan again.
    
    John

>>    and he was always being cheered for to go into
>>    the game and then when he went in, the fans would start yelling
>>    for Grogan again.

Some things never change!

    Cavanaugh cost the Eagles a 2nd round draft pick and a 3rd round pick. 
    Ryan traded for him shortly after he arrived in 1986 following the
    Bears' Super Bowl win over you-know-who.
    
    Although the price was steep, he has proven himself once again to be a
    capable backup.  On several occasions, he has come in and delivered
    when asked to.  One game against Phoenix two years ago, Randall got
    knocked silly and Cavanaugh came in for one play.  Six points.  Back of
    the end zone to Keith Jackson.
    
    Bob Hunt
    

    What happened to Don McPherson?

    Still on the team, still #3 QB as far as I know.
    
    John

    Actually, at least until they sign McMahon, Don McPherson is the #2 QB
    and Cavanaugh is the #3. At least, that's what Buddy says.
    
    Dennis
     

Don McPherson has been traded to Houston for a 1991 conditional draft
pick.

TTom

    well, doc will be happy, why do i feel if it was Cavanaugh that
    
    he wouldnt be happy..
    
    
    dinz
    

>> Don McPherson has been traded to Houston for a 1991 conditional draft
>> pick.

   I knew it was a just a matter of time. Will Cody Carson hold out much
   longer now. Good move for both teams and McPherson.

Chuck

    
    Who does Houston have for QB's right now???
    

    Moon is 1st string, I have to believe that Carlson is number2, unless
    he continues to hold out, and MacPherson is number 3.
    
    As for Dinz's weak innuendo, I don't know what you're talking about.
    Cavanaugh is old, has a weak arm, and is about as unsuited for the run
    and shoot as a QB can be. Don is young, fast, and has a good arm.
    However, he doesn't have a lot of NFL game time, and is a real novice
    at the run and shoot. If Moon goes down, and Mac is the #2 guy, things 
    could get rough. I'd like to see Cody sign, but the world doesn't
    revolve around 2nd string QB's who are sitting behind an All-Pro
    (unless you're Steve Young ... :-) .... 

    
    re: Doc, so what you are saying is that the Houston Oilers QBs,
    combined are 1-7 lifetime v.s. the Cleveland Browns...
    

    You mean the Browns that couldn't even score last week in the Hall Of
    Fame game against the Bears ?
    
    Every drive ended in a punt, except for the one that ended in a INT.
    
    Yeah, ha ha ha is the phrase.
    
    

    
    DrM...  a dreamer...  Warren Moon has QB the Oilers to exactly ONE
    victory over the Browns during his entire career...  Yes, these are
    the same Oilers that DrM says will win the AFC Central and then
    choke...
    
    swiss cheese defense - a defense invented by George Brooks where a
    team plays a zone type defense in a 3 on 3 game with one of the 
    players rushing the QB and the other two, each covering one side of
    the field...  the only problem is, if both receivers line up on the
    same side of the field... one of them is always open...
    

    Could you guys take your Browns-Oilers feud over to either the Browns
    or Oilers note ???
    
    Or did T tell you that Cleveland is in Philadelphia ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    They're both next to the ocean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I have  a riddle for you all :
    
    What does Bernie Kosar and Paul Gronowski have in common ?
    
    
    Both are no shows ...
    
    
    Bernie has never been to a Super Bowl, and Grownowski has never shown
    up for any of our pickup football games .... two girly-mon deserve each
    other.

    re .106:  If you two are going to start this again, the least you could
    do is keep it in the Cleveland or Houston notes.  Better yet, keep it
    in Mail.

    What is the latest on Mike Quick ?

    
    He jumped over he candle stick. 
    
    
    
    Steve

    With MacPhearson gone does that mean Matt Cav. stays as there 3rd QB or
    do they have someone else in camp?

Chuck

    Quick will start working out in pads on Monday. I was at practice
    Friday and Quick didn't really participate in any of the practice.
    
    As far as a third QB is concerned, Ben Brown seems to have that spot
    wrapped up, although with the injury to McMahan last night Cavanaugh
    might make this team yet.
    
    Dennis
    

    I wouldn't count Cavanaugh out just yet.  He has looked very good in
    the first two preseason games and with Buddy knowing that McMahon is
    injury-prone he might want to keep Cavanaugh for added insurance.  The
    way I understand it the Birds can keep two guys on injured reserve for
    the whole year.  Maybe Ben Brown will be injured in some way just
    before the season and it will take the whole season to recover.  This
    is a strange game.
    
    Quick Six will be ready to go by Sept 9 vs. the Giants.  Apparently
    he's going to suit up for next week's game against the Colts.  
    
    I also heard the Donny McPherson looked very good in the Oilers most
    recent preseason game.  I still think it was a good move if the Eagles
    can get a 4th or 5th rounder, but it will be hard to swallow if Randall
    goes down and the other QB's can't do the job because they're too slow
    and can't scramble.
    
    Highlight of Dolphins game - Reggie & Co. looked AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Chris
    

    Speaking of McMahon being injury-prone
    
    I believe Jim injured a finger on his throwing hand. Something
    to do with the tendons.
    
    Bull~
    

    re .113
    
    Actually , he tore ligaments on his non-throwing hand, but can and will
    continue to play.
    
    

    
    	A need to know question:
    
    		Who is the owner of the Philadelphia Eagles.  If it's
    already in here somewhere, well, it's Monday, I just got out of class,
    and I'm lazy, and I'm running out of excuses. :)
    
    	Thanks in advance.
    
    						 glen j.

    Norman Braman owns the Philadelphia Eagles.

    Braman was born in Philly and spent some of his boyhood as an Eagles
    waterboy.

    He moved to Miami at some point in his adult life and started a string
    of luxury automobile dealerships.   You can't swing a dead rat in Miami
    without hitting a Braman dealership.  Braman BMW, Braman Mercedes,
    Braman Rolls, Braman Acura, Braman Sterling and so on.  I wouldn't be
    at all surprised if he's got an Infiniti and/or Lexus dealership by
    now.

    He bought the Iggles from Leonard Tose, a Philly trucking tycoon,
    following the 1984 season.  Tose was in some financial trouble
    including some hefty Atlantic City gambling debts.  He had been
    thinking about moving the Eagles to Phoenix during the fall of 1984. 
    That caused the city to panic and give Tose a sweet new lease and build
    a whole bunch of luxury suites at The Vet.

    Tose was a spendthrift and paid the players some nice wages for
    mediocre seasons, the Vermeil years notwithstanding.  Braman is
    anything but generous.  He's extremely tight and subsequently the
    Eagles have annual holdout problems.

    Braman has been identified as one of the "young Turk" owners who
    effectively blocked the old guard (Mara, Modell, ...) who wanted Jim
    Finks to replace Rozelle.   Braman helped lead the effort to get the
    more business-like Tagliabue into office.   This group is up to its
    eyeballs in debt they used to purchase their teams and they wanted a
    businessman in charge as opposed to a good ol' boy like Finks.

    Braman is also on the expansion committee and I dearly hope he
    considers Charlotte for a franchise.

    Bob Hunt
    

    Okay, just when I thought I had kinda figured out good ol' Buddy ...
    
    He cuts Matt Cavanaugh, who had a very good preseason, and keeps Jim
    McMahon who's got an injured tendon in one of his hands.
    
    Cavanaugh then signs with the Giants against whom the Eagles open the
    season this coming Sunday.  No doubt that Matt Cavanaugh is right now
    educating the Giants' brain trust on every little intimate detail of
    the Eagles' upcoming game plan.   Not to mention that Cavanaugh was the
    one on the sideline who "wig-wagged" the offensive signals into Randall
    Cunningham's huddle.   Wonderful.
    
    But he also cut Cris Carter.  Granted, Carter does all of his work
    inside the 20-yard line but there are *many* times you need exactly
    that kind of receiver who can get open in the end zone.  Carter signed
    with the Vikings.   The Eagles are going with a rehabilitated Mike
    Quick and *four* rookie wide receivers.   Great.
    
    These were very questionable moves, in my opinion ...
    
    Bob Hunt

Carter lost his job when he went on record earlier this year that he
would not go across the middle for a pattern. He said that he liked the
end zone and the sidelines because there was less of a chance that he'd
get hurt.

Doubtlessly, Macho Buddy took exception to this. That is the only
explanation that I can see on why he cut a very talented receiver.

TTom

Hey, you had to be blind if you didn't realize that Cris Carter hated to go
over the middle where the big hits were waiting.  I've been pointing that fact
out for a couple of years now.  Long before Carter "admitted" it.

In fact, when Mike Quick went down last year, the Eagles had no wide receivers
except maybe Gregg Garrity (who later broke his collarbone) who would take the
deep middle routes.  That was one of the Eagles most glaring weaknesses last
year.

But Cris Carter caught *ELEVEN* touchdowns last year.  That's 77 points with
PATs converted.   And a few of those catches were outright game-winners.  He
caught the last-minute pass that beat the Vikings, 10-9, to name one instance.

Where's Ryan going to replace those points.  And if Quick can't go for the long 
haul, there's no veteran leadership out on the wings.

Scary ...

Bob Hunt

    I wonder if  Cavanaugh was cut with the idea of reclaiming him after
    clearing waivers and then dling Mac.  If so, Buddy underestimated some
    of the competition.
    
    Bruce

    re .121
    
    Clearly Bruce ....I think the Giants will keep Matt fro maybe 4 weeks,
    6 weeks tops.
    
    re Bob
    
    What really blows my mind is that at least he could have traded Carter
    and got SOMETHING for him, now he's a Vike, which just made a good
    offense a little deeper .....
    
    This could be a long season for Philly - I've never seen a team that
    has so much volitlity.
    
    They could go 7-9 or 12-4 with the same personel ...

    Every year I approach an Eagles season with the same attittude ...
    
    Ya gotta just buckle your seat belt and hang on for the ride.   Why
    should this year be any different ???
    
    On the one hand, I can't find fault with Buddy Ryan's last two years. 
    They got invited to the dance.  He produced.  A playoff win would have
    been nice but sometimes ya just gotta take smaller steps to climb the
    same mountain.  No problem.
    
    On the other hand, he seems clueless sometimes.   It is probably wrong
    to assume that *any* player who was quickly snatched off the waiver
    wire was tradable.  But I gotta figure that Cris Carter's dismissal
    from Camp Buddy was a big shock around the league.   Carter had to have
    been worth at least a 2nd or 3rd round pick.  Even if you don't like
    his deep speed or his over-the-middle guts, the man has hands of glue
    in the end zone.
    
    Weird.   And I'd be really pissed if it turns out that guys like
    Cavanaugh and Carter were only hung out there to dry just to play some
    roster games before they were to be quickly recalled by Buddy.  Because
    somebody was too damn slow then.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    As I put the Eagles in as my choice for KOH I thought to myself that I
    wouldn't mind losing this one at all.  It looked like the Eagles didn't
    know how to put the game away.  When they had a 14-0 lead they sat back
    waiting for the Cards to give up.  Instead the Cards got some momentum
    and got tight back into it.
    
    Bruce

    Ha ha ha, that's a great line, Bob, hating to say "I told you so"
    to yourself.  Ha ha ha.  :*)
    
    Lee

    I was thinking of you last night, Bob Hunt, as I watched the late night
    NFL show on ESPN.  Tom Jackson said that the first thing that the
    Eagles need to do is to trade back Cris Carter......
    
    Hawk

    His Rudeness sure raised a lot of eyebrows when he cut Carter.  I,
    among others, could easily see that Carter had his limitations but the
    man hauled in touchdowns.  A rare skill ...
    
    The Eagles also need to get the Keith Jackson situation straightened
    out.  I'm disappointed in Jackson.  A contract is a contract.  You
    signed it.  Now play under it.   Play so incredibly good for the rest
    of your deal so that you can fire your agent and have lunch with your
    owner and sign a new mega-million dollar deal.  See "Montana, Joe" for
    more details.
    
    Tom Jackson also pointed out that after Week 2 *last* year, Carter and
    Jackson combined has caught 21 passes for 5 TDs.  Slightly different
    story this year.
    
    Bob Hunt

Bob,

One of the 112 or so Football analysts - Will McDoughnut, from CBS, I
think - reported that Ryan feels underpaid. This pundit boldly predicted
that Buddy would get a new, long-term contract this year. Of course, that
was before losing at home to Phoenix. 

Looks to me that Buddy may be on the way out. Any insight?

TTom

    If I were Norman Braman, I'd wait until the year was over before I
    would offer His Rudeness a new contract.
    
    I say keep him nervous until he produces just a bit more than another
    first-round playoff loss.  And even *that* may be a reach given their
    wonderful performance of the last two weeks.
    
    Rams in LA next.  Great.
    
    Bob Hunt

    As an addition to your roller-coaster analogy, Bob, there's this
    coaster in Pittsburgh's Kennywood Park called the Thunderbolt.  It
    starts off by dropping down hill into a vally.  Quite unique.  
    
    That initial drop makes it pick up quite a lot of speed and it is a
    great ride.
    
    Trouble is, like the Eagles' past playoff experiences, it comes to an
    abrupt end just when you're having a great time.
    
    Hang in there, friend.  The ride is worth it.
    
    	--dan'l

>    Trouble is, like the Eagles' past playoff experiences, it comes to an
>    abrupt end just when you're having a great time.
    
Sounds like a girl I used to date.  She had that "STOP RIGHT THERE"
syndrome, like the girl in Parasdise by the Dashboard Light...

'Saw

    re .130
    
    Bob, I think you and other Iggle's fans are spoiled by the last couple
    of years.
    
    The Eagles are great overachivers. They have a great front 7
    (especially the defensive line), a decent secondary (two great players,
    the rest range from adqueate to mediocre), and a offense that doesn't
    have  a clue. They have a top-flight QB, no dominant RB, their top TE
    is a holdout, and the WR corps is a shambles.
    
    While Ryan bears part of the blame (the Carter move was sheer
    stupidty), I don't see enough offensive talent to carry the Eagles to
    teh next level. Sorry.
    
    THey would have been better off going 8-8 or 9-7 the last couple of
    years, and nailing down some good draft picks. A David Meggett would
    have helped too.
    
    I'd give Buddy a nice one year contract, and tell him that he'd better
    darn well draft for some offensive speed next year.
    
    Hell, I'd deal a number 1 pick to Indy for Eric Dickerson if I were
    him. The Eagles are DESPERATE for a breakaway threat.
    
    DrM

    re .132
    
    That's not the way the girl told the story to me 'Saw ...
    
    :-)

    Eagles fans spoiled ???
    
    Are you serious ???   Spoiled by what ???   By a miracle NFC East
    division title in 1988 and by a disappointing wild card in 1989 ???
    
    I don't think the Eagles have overachieved.  1988's 10-6 followed by
    last year's 11-5 is decent, not spectacular.
    
    Geez, I think I'll know when I'm spoiled by the Eagles' success.  It
    ain't here yet.  Not by a long shot.
    
    Bob Hunt

Doc,

One thing I've never possessed is speed.  I'm a slow white guy
in every sense of the word.  So, when I realize that I wasn't
going to set any world records, I just decided to take my time ;^)

Actually, it was back in High School and it never got to the point
of seeing if the ICBM of Love was a Minuteman or a Titan.  It would
always stop right about the point of the guy heading for the plate
with a suicide squeeze on.

That's why I ALWAYS got a kick outta Paradise by the Dashboard Light,
which came out when I was in college...it reminded me so much 
of Kathy...

Ah, sweet halcyon days of youth, their bittersweet nectar to be
tasted no more......

Waxing nostalgic,
'Saw

    Sounds like it's time to break out the ol' woodie there 'Saw and laquer
    up the remaining half.......  :-)
    
    Hawk

    ha.. im rolling, and its only  tuesday...
    
    dinz
    

    There hasn't been anyone named Shaw on the roster here lately.  We had
    a couple of running backs in camp who were cut - James Gray, Anthony
    Landry and Jamie Morris.  One of them, perhaps?
    
    John

 BoB maybe you're confusing him with Ricky Shaw who if I'm not mistaken wears
 51?

 Anyways doesn't this cutting of Carter seem like a power play between Buddy
 and Norman? The big boss won't sign one of Buddy's favorites so Buddy cuts
 one of Norman's favorite players? Almost like Buddy was trying to make the
 passing game less in order to get his man...

 mike

    It was James Gray.  I'm not sure if he's still with the Eagles but
    Buddy gave him Wilbert's No. 31 and pissed off the whole town.
    
    Thanks, John.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Gray had several cases of fumbleitis during the preseason which allowed
    Don Overton to step forward and make the team.
    
    You're welcome, Bob
    
    John

    re .137
    
    "A Minuteman or a Titan" ... I'm roooling !!!!!!!

    Come on Bob lighten up ... you know it's always better in retrospect
    ...

    
    
    People here are making Sunday's game look like a SB win.  1000 fans met
    the Cards at the airport last night.  With a weak NO team next week,
    they could end up 2-1 after 3 away games.
    
    Bruce

   Although I have only a few teams that I really consider myself a fan
   of, such as the Donks and the Bears, there are several that I kind of
   like ie. Giants (also kick-ass Raiders... but as a Donk fan I can never
   admit it) Packers, etc.  One of the teams I always sort of liked were
   the Eagles under Dick Vermeil. It always seemed like they really
   scrambled, played over their heads.... I always wished them well.
   Lately though, they've become a team that I enjoy watching lose.

   Mike JN

    Vermeil's Eagles were massive overachievers.   A motley crew of
    free-agents, late-round draft picks, and other assorted cast-offs won
    three wild-card berths, a division title, and a conference title.
    
    I liked Vermeil *then*.  I lost respect for him after the "burnout"
    thing where he cried at his farewell press conference in 1982.    I
    thought: "Hell, Landry, Noll, and Shula don't *burnout*.  What's the
    matter, Dick ???"
    
    All that stuff about sleeping on a cot in his Vet Stadium office and
    not knowing what grades his kids were in at school and never seeing
    the fall leaves turn color ...    I got tired of it.
    
    And I think he burned the emotional edge out of the Eagles, too. 
    Marion Campbell certainly didn't relight it.  His Rudeness did.   Now
    it's time for Buddy to keep 'em lit.
    
    Bob Hunt

    One of my most vivid sports memories is him yelling at his players
    after the Super Bowl loss.  I don't think he knew the camera was on.
    How long after this did he retire?  Maybe he was burned out then.
    
    	--dan'l

    Super Bowl XV was during January 1981, the weekend that the 52 Iran
    hostages came home.
    
    Vermeil then coached the Eagles through the 1981 season, which ended in
    a wild-card loss to the Giants, and again through the strike-torn 1982
    season.  The Eagles finished 3-6 during the strike year.  They were
    (still are and always have been) a very solid union team and the strike
    tore 'em up.   Vermeil resigned after that year claiming he was burned
    out.
    
    Marion Campbell went from 1983 through the next-to-last game of 1985. 
    Fred Bruney had the last game of 1985.
    
    Ditka's Bears won the January 1986 Super Bowl and His Rudeness left the
    Bears shortly afterwards to come to Philly.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    > The Eagles also need to get the Keith Jackson situation straightened
    > out.  I'm disappointed in Jackson.  A contract is a contract.  You
    > signed it.  Now play under it.   Play so incredibly good for the rest
    > of your deal so that you can fire your agent and have lunch with your
    > owner and sign a new mega-million dollar deal.  See "Montana, Joe" for
    > more details.
    
    Keith seemed to be enjoying himself in Norman, Oklahoma this past
    weekend.  Probably wanted to show the Eagles that he isn't feeling too
    pressured.
    
    I disagree with your assessment of the Jackson situation, Bob.  The NFL
    has the screwed-up system of paying players based on their rank in the
    draft.  After that, it's pretty tough to break away from the initial
    pay scale, especially considering the short average career.  When
    Jackson was at Oklahoma, I thought he was one of the top five best
    offensive talents I'd ever seen there.  Initially, so did the scouts. 
    Then for some reason his stock dropped.  I remember the Patriots kind
    of going south on him after initial interest (figures).  The guy turns
    out to be the best tight end in the league in his first season and he's
    locked in at $300K due to a overly restrictive, currently unopposable
    system.  I can't blame him for what he's doing.
    
    glenn
     

    Maybe so but show me a truly "open" market.  There aren't many.
    
    Jackson signed a deal.  If he thought it was lousy then, he shouldn't
    have signed it.   Either that or he should have signed one with all
    kinds of incentive-based contingencies.
    
    He didn't so he shouldn't be complaining.   Not for an obscene amount
    of money that'll take guys like us 10 years to earn.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Whatever, Bob.  I guess Jackson has the right to sit around the house
    doing nothing if he wants, just as could have after the draft if he'd
    had the conviction.  Instead he played two years at an underinflated
    salary, and proved himself one of the best while Cunningham reaped the 
    credit and the dollars.
    
    The Eagles have every right, under contract, to do what they want. 
    From what I've seen, though, weighing the Eagles' performance versus
    Jackson's salary over the next two years, there's not much doubt who's
    got the most to lose.
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn,
    
    I'm not on the Eagles management side, either.   I think they probably
    bullied Jackson into an inferior contract two years ago.   And if they
    want the best team out there now, they should pay for it.
    
    But Jackson signed it ...
    
    They've taken a stand against being forced to renegotiate a current
    contract.   From a purely business standpoint, it's hard to argue
    against them.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Keith Jackson has agreed to report to the Eagles. He will be at
    practice tommorow (Thurs.). I don't have any other details yet, but I'm
    sure I'll hear more later.
    
    Dennis
    

    Whew ...
    
    Nice win, boys.   Beating the Rams in LA is no easy feat.  Something
    pretty obvious tells me there was a sense of desperation about this
    one.
    
    Bob Hunt

    There better be a sense of desperation tonight as well.  After the
    Giants win yesterday, the Eagles can't afford to lose any more ground
    to them.  They have to win tonight.  The one positive factor is that
    other than the NFC teams in first place everyone else is playing pretty
    lousy so the Eagles still have a very legitimate chance at a wild card
    spot.  There are three open and you figure the Skins to take one.  But
    who will the others be?  Rams 1-4, Vikes 1-4, Pack 2-4, Eagles 1-3. 
    No one is a lock for those last two spots.  Nevertheless we've got to
    start winning and now.
    
    Chris
    
    

    I don't consider Tampa Bay a wild-card lock after 6 games.  Don't
    forget they finished in last place last year and already have lost to
    the Cowboys.  They beat the Packers, Vikings, and Lions (twice) which
    puts them in good position within their division (tie breakers, etc.),
    but they really haven't proven anything yet.  This is not to take
    anything away from them as they are playing good football so far, but
    let's wait to see what their record is after 12 games before we mark
    them as "playoff bound".
    
    Chris
    
    

    Well, well, well.   Let's welcome the Eagles back to the land of the
    living.   Philadelphia 28, Redskins 14 on Monday Night Football. 
    Eagles improve to 5-4 and Redskins drop to the same record.
    
    Eagles scored two touchdowns off defensive turnovers and a third one
    only took about 10 yards after another turnover.  Heath Sherman rushed
    for over 120 yards on 35 carries and scored two TDs.
    
    The injury cart driver earned his pay, too.  The Skins had at least 4
    players taken off the field in either the cart or a stretcher.  Stan
    Humphries looked like he wrecked a knee.  Rutledge hurt his thumb, too,
    and the Skins finished up at QB with a rookie running back named Bobby
    (or Billy) Mitchell.
    
    It's been a long time since the Eagles put this kind of a hurtin' on
    the Redskins.  It's usually the other way around.  I don't think the
    Skins gained over 150 yards in total offense.   And this was one week
    after racking up over 650 yards against Detroit, the highest total in
    35 years.
    
    And now the Skins have two more games in the next 10 days.  Rypien
    better get healthy in a hurry.  The Eagles are flying once again.  Have
    won 4 out of last 5 games to get over .500 for the first time all year. 
    Amazing what happens when you let Randall Cunningham just do his thing
    and you get a running game to go with it.
    
    Not a bad weekend in the Hunt household.  Virginia beat Carolina on
    Saturday and the Eagles take care of Washington on Monday night. 
    Doesn't get much better.
    
    Bob Hunt

    I went against my gut feeling and picked the 'Skins, which drops me
    from the KoH competition.  I honestly felt that the Eagles would have a
    big game on Monday night national tv, but then I kept reminding myself
    how the 'Skins played the Giants tought that last game.
    
    Oh well......
    
    Hawk

How about that last QB for Washington, Brian Mitchell. Is there anyway
he'll start next game?

Bad news is just beginning for the Redskins, who must play New Orleans
and at Dallas on Turkey Day. That's 3 games in 10 days.

TTom

    only listened to the game on radio,and saw some highlites on espn
    Colo. is terrible for east coast games but then there were none.
    is it possible for a Eagles Giants rematch for the playoffs???
                                   skibo

    Right now it looks like Philly will take the #1 Wildcard spot, I dont
    see them catching NY although its possible its not likely.  If they
    are the #1 wildcard they will play the #3 Division Champs in the 1st
    round, that would be chicago right now......Will all change next week
    NY of SF will have 2 loses and Chicago is playing detroit at chicago.
    Will be intresting.

    Make that the 10 and *ONE* New York Giants.
    
    Nicely done, Eagles, nicely done.  An old-fashioned smash mouth game in
    South Philly.   Eagles 31, Jints 13.   Cunningham was sharp, Sherman
    looked good, and Byars was superb.   LT was completely bottled up and
    that's the first time I can remember *that* happening.  Perhaps he's
    lost a step ???
    
    Maybe this will end all of that silly "Super Bowl XXIV.V" talk about
    next Monday Night's game between the Niners and the Jints.   Next time
    the hype machine wants to get itself all worked up, it ought to look at
    the schedule first.
    
    Eagles have won five straight and are playing great ball.  Next game is
    a tough one at Buffalo.  Hope it helps that Buffalo will be coming off
    a Monday Night game of their own.
    
    At 7-4 now, 11-5 is probably how they'll finish.  Which ought to be
    good enough for the first wild-card slot.
    
    Bob Hunt

 Good game Bob ;^(. Too bad the Eagles were the only ones really playing
 smashmouth football. Giants thought they were finesse team yesterday.
 Eagles talked big and played big. Giants listened and then submitted.

 Giants and Eagles can only replay one another if it's in the NFC championship
 game. League rule that a wildcard can't play against a divisional foe except
 for the final game. 

 mike

    How about the hit that Byner put on the LB of the Giants on Cunninghams
    scramble... THAT was a major block.. I rememebr.. Pepper Martin
    was the one that got nailed....
    
    REK

    Don't quote me, but I'm fairly certain that with the addition of
    the third wildcard team, the rule that stated you couldn't play
    a division foe until the championship game was dropped.  It will
    be done strictly by record.
    
    The Wizard

Good game by the Eagles, but I really didn't think the Giants
would sweep the Eagles series this year.

As far as the Giants go, this loss serves a very important purpose,
and I for one would rather see them go into this part of the schedule
with a 1 in the L column than with a 0 there.  Gets the heads down
to earth and thinking football.

And c'mon Bob, Monday night's game at Candlestick is still the biggest
game of the year 8^)

'Saw

    re .167, .169:
    
    The Wizard is correct, the rule was changed this year and two teams
    from the same division can now meet before the championship game.
    
    
    py

    You'll be seeing the hit that Byars put on Pepper Johnson for years. 
    Johnson is the one who caused the Byars fumble early on.  
    
    I thought the best revenge hit to that point was the one Steve Largent
    put on I-forget-who on a Monday night game.  But the one Byars layed on
    Johnson yesteray tops that by far.  He sent him 10 feet in the air and
    five yards back.
    
    	--dan'l

>    You'll be seeing the hit that Byars put on Pepper Johnson for years. 
>    Johnson is the one who caused the Byars fumble early on.  
    
	That was a great hit by Byars. CBS failed to pick up that the 2 were old
Ohio State buddies, and were seen chatting together after the game.

	On the playoff situation. If the season ended today, the Bears
would host the Packers and the Eagles would host the Redskins on wildcard
Sunday.

	Jim M

    
        Jim Gordon (Giants radio) said that the only thing that
    you could see after the hit were Johnson's 2 feet pointing
    straight up in the air.
    
        
        Wasn't the hit that John Byner laid on Pepper Martin the
    reason for the fan riot during the World Series. If I remember
    correctly the Commissioner had Byner removed from the game so
    that the fans would stop throwing garbage on the field [BIG :^>]
    
    Bull~
    
    

    How about that stick Byars put on Pepper Martin ! I was half-asleep
    when watching the replays, and I must have jumped a foot ! They say
    Byars broke his helmet from the impact.

    I guess you musta been half-asleep, Doc.  Seeing as how it was Pepper
    Johnson of the Jints who got his forward progress so abruptly
    redirected by Mr. Byars.
    
    Pepper Martin was a 1930s baseball player and we've been talking about
    him all day long.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Didn't Pepper Martin team up with Salt Walther to form Salt and Peppa?

    Did anyone see that hit Peeper Marty laid on John Byner?
    
    Awesome!
    
    Hawk

Pepper Rogers coached Georgia Tech, I think.

TTom

    Hawk, Pepper and Ginger are both spices, but not the same.
    
    HTH
    
    Lee

    Yeah, but, that was one heckuva hit by Fryar, eh?
    
    Hawk

     
     In that case, what king of spice is Hawk?
    
     Deen to wonk,
     Bull~
    

    
       The following may be offensive to some viewers
        
       Unique. What's that, Latin for *sshole?
    
       Bull~
    

Unique.

Actually "unique" is eunuch pronounced with a french accent...

Jeez, Hawk, we never knew.....
    

    
    Hawk is an after-shave from Avon. It's cheap and it smells bad!
    No offense Hawk.
    
    
    
    Steve

    Anyone got the linescore for the Eagles-Dolphins game?
    

    1st quarter:
    
    M	 7:47	Martin, 26 yd pass from Marino, Stoyanovich kick
    M	12:24	Stoyanovich, 24 yd FG
    
    2nd quarter:
    
    P	 2:15	Byars, 3 yd pass from Cunningham, Ruzek kick
    P	14:58	Ruzek, 53 yd FG
    
    3rd quarter:
    
    P	 7:18	Ruzek, 33 yd FG
    
    4th quarter:
    
    P	 4:36	Williams, 45 yd pass from Cunningham, Ruzek kick
    M	 9:50	Duper, 5 yd pass from Marino, Stoyanovich kick
    M	14:57	Stoyanovich, 34 yd FG
    
    Overtime:
    
    M	12:32	Stoyanovich, 39 yd FG
    
    Cunningham was 18/29, 198 yds, 2 TD, 1 Int, 2 sacks for 21 yds
    Marino     was 27/54, 365 yds, 2 TD, 0 Int, 2 sacks for 14 yds
    
    Cunningham was the leading rusher in the game, 12 for 94
    
    John

    re .194:
    
    How many yards rushing does Cunningham have now?
    
    
    py

    He probably will, however, I'm not sure it's a good thing.  I'm not
    clear on what it says about that football club.  One would think that a
    running back would lead the team in rushing.
    
    Before last night he had 678 yards rushing.  How many did he get
    against the Dolphins?
        
    Live from Charger Central.......Glenn

    About 92 yards, so he is around 770 yards for the season.  59 yards
    per game, extrapolated finish at 948 yards.
    
    The Wizard

    Randall had 94 yards last night on 12 carries.

    Marino was brilliant out there, showing both long arm and great touch. 
    Good defensive strategy by the Eagles to keep bringing the blitz from
    different places, but Marino overcame the pressure.  He hit the biggest
    pass of the game (15 yard out to Duper) on a nearly impossible play. 
    Not only did he never see Duper, but he must have released the ball
    before Mark even cut.  And he laid it in perfectly.
    
    Dan

    
    Where were you last week Dan? How come you twernt extolling the virtues 
    of Danny Boy lasted week, hmmmmmmmmmmm, how come? 8^))))))
    
    I wished I had stayed up, I figured Philly had the game won on thier
    last td. Oh well... 
    
    
    
    Steve

>    Where were you last week Dan? How come you twernt extolling the virtues 
>    of Danny Boy lasted week, hmmmmmmmmmmm, how come? 8^))))))
    
    'cause he disappears when his teams/players are embarrassed!

    >'cause he disappears when his teams/players are embarrassed!
    
    Mike, just cause you got caught disappearing over the Suns until I
    called you on it doesn't mean I do the same thing.  I don't think
    anyone believes what you're fabricating.
    
    Dan

    Re: -1
    
    I bet they do believe!  Especially since you haven't answered my
    question on why you disappeared while the Lakers were verbally abused in
    here, during May thru November.
    
    Mike

    Wrong Dan. On the contrary EVERYONE knows you for what you are.
    
    And if Marino is the premire QB in the conference, why did it take an
    pass-interference penality and a OT to beat the Eagles ?
    
    Hell, Moon took the last 25 minutes of the game off, after disecting
    the Clowns ....

    First off, it's extremely laughable to see Doc criticize anyone
    for disappearing - he does it more than anyone.  And despite what
    Mike H. says, Dan is always in here, except when he's away on business.
    I don't see eye to eye with Dan on most things, but ducking this
    conference is one thing Dan doesn't do.  
    
    As for the Suns/Lakers thang, last time I looked, the Suns had zero
    champeenships, the same number as the Miami Heat and Orlando Magic,
    and a couple less than the the Knicks.  ;-)
    
    Doc, Marino is better than Warren, hands down.  Where was the mighty
    Warren last week against the so called hapless Seahawks?  And Marino
    played against a major league defense in Philly, not a sandlot team
    like the Browns.
    
    As for Cunningham.  He's overrated bigtime.  Who cares if the QB
    can rush for a 1000 yards?  That's like caring if your halfback
    can throw TD passes.   The Eagles will never win a champeenship
    with Randall until they have a  non-Randall running attack, and
    until Randall learns the finer points of deciding when to run and
    pass.  Also, the Eagles under Buddy Ryan have to learn that beating
    the Giants in November doesn't automatically mean they are the best
    team in the league.  As their 0-2 record the last two weeks indicate.
    
    JD

    >Especially since you haven't answered my
    >question on why you disappeared while the Lakers were verbally abused in
    >here, during May thru November.
    
    I'll answer that as soon as you tell me when you stopped beating your
    wife.
    
    Dan

    >And if Marino is the premire QB in the conference, why did it take an
    >pass-interference penality and a OT to beat the Eagles ?
    
    Let's see.  Miami was down 10 points with 6:00 minutes to go against
    one of the best defenses in the NFL, and Marino led them back to a win
    and you're debating the quality of it!
    
    Un-buh-lievable, Doc.
    
    Dan

    >Also, the Eagles under Buddy Ryan have to learn that beating
    >the Giants in November doesn't automatically mean they are the best
    >team in the league.  As their 0-2 record the last two weeks indicate.
    
    I read where Ryan has announced that he has done the best coaching job
    of any NFL coach over the last five years!  This, despite having won 0
    (zero) playoff games over the same period.
    
    Dan

    
    Randall is the #1 fantasy football QB this season...!

    re .205
    
    JD, it's even more laughable to hear you say I disappear. It seems that
    you're a minority of one on that issue. When the Oilers lose, I take
    the lumps. Hell, I haven't been seen when they WIN, and I made an extra
    effort to lay into you only because of your utter lack of football
    knowledge, and this twisted macho you display about pro offense - kinda
    like Jerry Glanville. 
    
    Why caint you be a man and admit you were wrong ? The way you left
    yourself open (appropriately on Turkey Day) was just too funny - and
    now you whine that I do a disappearing act. haw haw haw ....
    

    re .206
    
    Brutal Dan .....
    
    I must say, that you haven't lost your gift for exaggerration. Now
    Philly has one of "the top defenses in football". 
    
    Yeah.
    
    Philly has a great big play defense. Solid LB's and a fantastic front
    four. But their DB's couldn't cover a fire hydrant with a blanket.
    
    Philly gives up lots of yards in a prevent for that very reason. I
    mean, come on Dan ! Thsi "top defense" gave up a game winning 90 yards
    TD drive to the COLTS for cripssake !
    
    And Marino still needed a PI call, and a lousy special teams effort to
    pull it out.
    
    What gives with this top QB bandwagon you've got going ? A couple of
    years ago it was K-K-Kenny O'Brian. Then it was Boomer wasn't it ?
    
    Next year will it be Tom Hodson ? :-)

>    for disappearing - he does it more than anyone.  And despite what
>    Mike H. says, Dan is always in here, except when he's away on business.
    
    being in here and defending your team while being abused are entirely
    separate!

>                       -< Do the Lakers play baseball? >-
    
    No they only got embarassed by Phoenix in May and sucked thru November.
    Avoidance isn't your strong suit.
    

>    JD, it's even more laughable to hear you say I disappear. It seems that
>    you're a minority of one on that issue.
    
    come to think of it, Doc disappeared from the Laker's defense in May
    and November also.  Maybe Doc and Dan were hiding together somewhere?

    Hardly, you Desert Ingrate. I congratulated the Suns on a job well done,
    and predicted that Portland would ultimately represent the West in the
    Finals.
    
    As for this year, the Lakers will jell late, and win 55 or so. But I
    think they could use a trade to boost their running game. I get the
    impression they could become as half-court bound as the C's have been
    in the last 5 years ... ugh !

    >Philly has a great big play defense. Solid LB's and a fantastic front
    >four ... Philly gives up lots of yards in a prevent for that very
    >reason 
    
    Obviously, you agree with me on the Philly D, considering that they
    stayed out of the prevent and went straight up with lots of blitzing.
    
    >What gives with this top QB bandwagon you've got going ?
    
    Recognizing the quality of Marino doesn't require a bandwagon.  It does
    take at least a rudimentary understanding of football though.
    
    Warren Moon doesn't compare to Dan Marino, and I'd gamble that at least
    27 NFL coaches would tell you the same thing.
    
    Dan

    Mike, maybe if you keep repeating your lie, you can find someone to
    swear to it.  Maybe.  But those noters who know me know that I'm with
    my teams through thick and thin.
    
    Dan

>    Hardly, you Desert Ingrate. I congratulated the Suns on a job well done,
>    and predicted that Portland would ultimately represent the West in the
>    Finals.
    
    You were still silent during all the abuse that I and others dished out
    on the Lakers.  A TRUE fan would've taken the bait and defended their
    team.
    
>    think they could use a trade to boost their running game. I get the
>    impression they could become as half-court bound as the C's have been
>    in the last 5 years ... ugh !
    
    I think that's more Dunleavy than LA.  I haven't seen them run yet and
    they still have the horses to out run 80% of the league.
    
>    Warren Moon doesn't compare to Dan Marino, and I'd gamble that at least
>    27 NFL coaches would tell you the same thing.
    
    Probably 28.  I bet Houston's coach would love to swap for Marino!
    
    Mike

    Doc,
    
    Your the first person to crow then the Oilers win, but early in
    the year you were non-existent.   You've disappeared and resurfaced
    more than a diesel-powered submarine.  
    
    I still don't consider the run-n-shoot as a real offense Doc.  What
    do you show me?  THe Lions whipping the 3-10 Broncos and the Oilers
    whipping the totally hapless Browns.  When, and if, I see consistency,
    I'll think about considering it a pro offense.
    
    Personally, I think both Houston and Detroit would have at least
    the same records they have by using a more conventional offense.
    And in Detroit's case, I think they's be better canning the run
    and shoot.  They have a very good defense that is forced to play
    too much because of the wimpy offense they play.
    
    Oh, and Doc, saying Marino needed the call to win the game is like
    claiming that without Terry Kinard, Moon couldn't have pulled the
    game out against the Browns...;-)
    
    JD

JD,

I agree with much you say about the R&S needing to be proven as a bonafide 
NFL offense. I personally think that it is an offense to be reconed with but
I agree that the Lions and Oilers would have much the same record without it.

The oilers were a good team without the R&S and would be about .500 eihter using
it or not. The Lions were a bad team without the R&S and by their record they 
still are a bad team. However the Lions are playing a lot more exciting football
now then they were in the late '80's using a traditional offense. They have just
been too inconsistant to win any games this year. You never know which team is
going to show up from 1 week to the next.

However I have to strongly disagree that the Lions have a good defense. The 
Only impact player they have on defense is Speilman. The rest of the D is 
a hodge podge collection of misfits. The R&S has nothing to do with the Lion
defense being bad. They would be bad even if the offense was a traditional. 
They might be a little worse because they are on the field a lot but to say
they have a very good defense is simply not true.

BTW - congrats on winning the div_c FFl title....


Metz

    Metz,
    
    The lions have a pretty good linebacking corp, and the front line
    aint too bad.  The secondary is iffy.   It isn't great, but it's
    not too bad either.  But the defense alone wouldn't win 'em any
    games.  
    
    I'll agree that the R&S at least makes Detriot (TM) interesting.
     But for Houston, it was  IMO, a desperate gamble.  They already
    had a pretty good team - a team that with a good draft, or a few
    good Plan B pickups or a trade, could win the Central outright.
     By instituting the R&S, the Oilers have gone backward.  And Moon
    isn't a spring chicken.  If  he gets hurt, forget aboutthe Oilers.
    
    JD

    The Lions can have a decent defense when healthy.  Blades and Spielman
    were out for a while and that hurt.  Ball showed up overweight.  Cofer
    hasn't played the way he has in past years.  They need help in the
    secondary.  Blades is good, but Irvin's over the hill and the rest
    wouldn't make a lot of teams as nickel backs.  Jimmy Williams is now
    gone, which I think was hasty, but he did a solid job.  Their main
    problem was staying on the field too long.  They need more ball control
    from the offense and Sanders.

    Not to change the subject, but I'd like to talk about the Eagles.  ;*)
    
    I thought that the Eagles shopuld have had the game put away, but they
    just missed a few big plays. One in particular that sticks in my throat
    is the TD pass that wasn't allowed because the reciever was pushed out
    of the end zone by the DB. Since the receiver jumped straight up, basic
    physics tells me that he would have come straight back down and landed
    in the end zone. I was suprised that there wasn't a replay but I guess
    you can expect these types of things when you play Shula at home.
    
    The Eagles also didn't make about five interceptions that they had an
    opportunity to take. The Eagles had two recievers wide open late in the
    game and Cunningham just missed both of them.
    
    As far as Cunningham being overrated as a QB, I might have agreed last
    season, but not this one. Randall has done damn near everything you
    could want a QB to do. Besides Montana and Marino, I don't know that
    I'd switch with any other team in the NFL. ANd with those two guys,
    they might get killed behind the Eagles OL, particularly Marino.
    Randall makes stuff happen, and the Eagles are putting up alot of
    points this season. Of the six losses, only one is attributable to the
    offense not scoring (Washington). I think the Eagles defense should be
    able to hold the other team to under 20 points, and in five of the six
    losses, they haven't done it. It strikes me as kind of funny that the
    defensive genius (Buddy Ryan) should be losing games because of
    defensive lapses and have such a high scoring offense.
    
    Dennis
    

    Dennis,
        Regarding the receiver being pushed out of the endzone...
    
    I don't think a judgement call can be reviewed. In my book, a referee
    trying to decide if the man would have come down inbounds if he hadn't
    been pushed is a judgement call.
    
    Yes? No? Maybe?
    
    Bull~ 

    re Metz and JD
    
    Metz, I agree with much that you've said. JD's brain-lock has put in
    the position of defending the run and shoot. Fact of the matter is (and
    people can read my old notes in the Oiler note, or ask Le-Fay, Walt, or
    Hendry), I *opposed* the Oilers going to the R&S. Why ? They didn't need
    it. They had 4 great running backs, the best 4 receivers in the league,
    and a great QB. All they needed to do was get rid of Glanville (he was
    killing the Oilers' offense) and tighten up the defense.
    
    There is no doubt in my mind that adjusting to the R&S has cost this
    team some ball games - the Jets game in particular. Quite possibly the
    Niners, Rams , and Seattle game as well. 
    
    On the other hand, the defense has done quite well - and vast
    improvement over past years. In fact, I'll go so far as to say the
    Oiler defense hasn't played this well since the late 70's.
    
    Anyhow, I believe that the R&S can work, and that people are mostly
    shocked by the *difference* of the offense. While it's an interesting
    offense, my favorite offensive team to watch are the Redskins. I find
    it amazing (and a tribute to Joe Gibbs) that a team can take the one
    back offense from a power running club (Riggins, Rogers) to the top
    passing club in the NFL in 1988-89 (with Williams, Rypian, and The
    Posse). I admire SF, and Cincy for their innovations. But I digress.
    
    All of these "arguments" that JD has against the R&S comes back to macho. 
    
    And we all know that JD is a real expert on the topic. :-)
    
    On a more serious note, Detroit is a much more dangerous team with the
    R&S. JD, what is your excuse now ? The Raiders are certainly a better
    team than Denver, and the Lions were moving the ball at will. Barry
    Sanders ran for 176 yards (8 yard avg.) against one of the NFL's top
    teams against the rush. I dare say that if the Lions ever get some real
    WR's (Jason Phillips' had two HUGE drops last night), they'll have a
    really hard offense to stop.
    
    [BTW JD, that was a nice evasion on your part after the Houston -
    Buffalo game a couple of weeks ago.]
    Oh yes, as to your comments about how Barry Sanders would benefit from
    a conventional offense - Barry would laugh in your face. Sanders has
    said on more than one occasion that the R&S is the best thing that has
    ever happened to him, and is perfectly suited to his running style.
    
    And in a conventional offense, the Raiders would have killed Sanders.
    
    Last thing for now : Please remember that the "fatal" shortcommings of
    the R&S are nothing new. So-called experts said the same thing about
    the "conventional" offenses that you're so in love with now. Paul Brown
    was called a "basketball" coach, because his teams passed so much. The
    straight-T was rejected as being too radical by many. Then the Bears
    wiped out the Redskins 73-0 with it, and changed a lot of minds.
    
    I submit that you guys look at a little football history first.
    
    Yes, I see some shortcomings in the R&S - but there are shortcomings in
    ANY offensive scheme. Bottom line is this - if have good enough talent
    in your offensive scheme, and you execute well, you will be sucessful
    on offense. If you play good defense, you'll win championships.
    
    DrM

    
    The main reasons for which the run-and-shoot is criticized also apply
    to any of the more wide-open offenses, as Doc has pointed out,
    including Miami's, San Francisco's, and Washington's, including
    performance in bad weather.  The other argument goes that the 
    run-and-shoot sacrifices team defense by minimizing the time on the 
    field in which the defense can rest, thereby requiring increased 
    efficiency from the offense to make up for the net loss on defense.  
    That's probably true, but it's exaggerated and the same effect has 
    been overcome by more than a few great big-play teams in the past.  
    Unlike basketball, offense and defense are still largely independent 
    units, so placing a premium on one set of skills needn't detract from 
    another.
    
    I believe that one bad statistic used to knock the run-and-shoot is 
    time of possession.  Any offense which relies on the pass and therefore
    accounts for a lot of incomplete passes and out-of-bounds plays cuts
    down on time of possession, yet those plays allow the defense to rest
    just as much as a running play which keeps the clock running (it 
    prolongs the game, but does so for *both* teams).  What I'd rather see 
    is offensive plays from scrimmage.  The run-and-shoot features a lot of
    short, ball-control type passes, so I'm not sure the play count for a
    successful run-and-shoot offense is significantly lower than for a 
    conventional one, especially one that favors the big play.  And again, 
    we've seen plenty of successful teams that relied on the quick strike...  
    
    Do I like the run-and-shoot from an aesthetic point of view?  No, but I
    didn't like the pro-passing rules changes of the late-70's, and that's
    what made it all possible.
    
    glenn
    

    >I believe that one bad statistic used to knock the run-and-shoot is 
    >time of possession.  Any offense which relies on the pass and therefore
    >accounts for a lot of incomplete passes and out-of-bounds plays cuts
    >down on time of possession, yet those plays allow the defense to rest
    >just as much as a running play which keeps the clock running (it 
    >prolongs the game, but does so for *both* teams).
    
    The issue isn't really rest, but the number of plays a defense has in
    it.  It's much more tiring, in terms of absorbing hits, to play the run
    than the pass.  Using up less time on offense by passing the ball all
    the time will leave the ball more for the other team and leaving your
    defense on the field for more plays.
    
    I think this is what you're getting at later, but I just wanted to
    point out that the issue isn't rest time, and I'm quite sure I've seen
    the effects of defenses being left on the field too long which isn't
    necessarily caused by the run and shoot, but certainly is exacerbated
    by it.
    
    Dan

>   The issue isn't really rest, but the number of plays a defense has in
>    it.  It's much more tiring, in terms of absorbing hits, to play the run
>    than the pass.  Using up less time on offense by passing the ball all
>    the time will leave the ball more for the other team and leaving your
>    defense on the field for more plays.


While this may be true (in terms of absorbing hits ) but I bet it is more tiring
for the defense to have to rush the passer every down or sprint w/ a wr every
down instead of playing in a smaller space against the run.

I'd say it is an even trade off in terms of fatigue. I couldn't tell you 
which the defense prefers.


Metz

    
    > The issue isn't really rest, but the number of plays a defense has in
    > it.  It's much more tiring, in terms of absorbing hits, to play the run
    > than the pass.  Using up less time on offense by passing the ball all
    > the time will leave the ball more for the other team and leaving your
    > defense on the field for more plays.
    
    If such is the case, that both teams may be defending the same number
    of plays but one is defending almost exclusively passing plays (even
    though some greatly resemble outside running plays) while the other
    is defending more running plays, then much of the same applies to the 
    49'ers and especially the Dolphins of the past decade.
    
    I just don't think anything has been proven yet, and much of the
    initial "can't-work" sentiment isn't entirely supportable.
    
    glenn  
    

    I've never considered the Niners a pass oriented team along the
    lines of the Marino Dolphins, simply because in Craig they've had
    a 1000 yard rusher, and except for this year, have always seemed
    to have a good rushing attack.  Coupled with the fact that the Niners
    had one of the best, most consistent defenses of the 80's.
    
    JD

    Could this discussion continue in the NFL general note. I hate to wade
    through 20 replies that don't pertain to the Birds when it's not really
    necessary. Thanks you for your consideration.
    
    Dennis
    

    For what it's worth, Seymour Siwoff, head of the Elias Sports Bureau
    which keeps the stats for the NFL, belittles Time of Possession as
    being a purely TV statistic and feels it's virtually useless.  TOP
    shows almost no correlation with winning.
    
    John

    re .227
    
    Miami didn't allow many sacks Mac, but Washington did and does.
    Moreover, given the fack that the R&S features short drops, less
    blockers, et al, more sacks are expected. But look at the number of
    sacks per pass attempts before you pass judgement.

    re .232
    
    JD, thanks for proving a R&S point.
    
    According to you, the Houston Gamblers couldn't be considered a
    passingteam neither, because Todd Fowler and another guy (name escapes
    me) were both 1,000 yard rushers in the R&S. Barry Sanders missed the
    rushing title by 10 yards (and had 100 fewer carries than Okoye) in the
    R&S. When Jerry Rice and Willie Totten terrorized the 1-AA at
    Mississippi Valley State with a R&S variant, they had a back named of
    Carl Byrum (does he still play with Buffalo ?).
    
    He rushed for 1,000 yards.
    
    Chuck Weatherspoon has rushing for 1,000 yards the last two years. In
    1989 he set a NCAA record for avg. yards per carry, breaking the record
    held by Greg Pruitt, who ran out of the *wishbone*.
    
    So what is your "point" ?

    Doc,
    
    Anywone who compares the Niners offense to a run and shoot is totally
    off base.  That's my point.  Same with the Marino Offense of the
    80's - all pass, no run.  The niners have, for the most part, had
    a balanced team - a running threat - a passing threat, a DEFENSE,
    and special teams.  They could play finesse, they could play smash
    mouth.  
    
    Detroit and Houston cannot play smash mouth.
    
    Hey Doc, we have differing views - you have resorted to name0calling,
    as usual.  Anytime  you wanna get together and talk about the evolution
    of football, I'll be glad to.
    
    And BTW, you gotta be reaching to use the HOUSTON GAMBLERS from
    the useless football league to make a point.  Maurice Cauthon rushed
    for over 1000 yards in THAT league.  C'mon Doc.
    
    If the R&S is so damn dominant, as you keep claiming, then how come
    it isn't tearing up the league?  How come the teams that use it
    haven't already clinched playoff spots?  How come it doesn't seem
    to work against good defenses?   Same for Houston in college, they
    can beat up Eastern Washington, but get whomped by good teams. 
    
    As one opponent of the R&S said this year "You don't even feel like
    you played a football game.  All these guys running around, no one
    getting hit."   
    
    Face it doc, the R&S is for WIMPS!
    
    JD

    
    > Chuck Weatherspoon has rushing for 1,000 yards the last two years. In
    > 1989 he set a NCAA record for avg. yards per carry, breaking the record
    > held by Greg Pruitt, who ran out of the *wishbone*.
    
    This part isn't too surprising, Doc, even figuring in that Pruitt ran
    out of the most potent rushing offense in collegiate history. 
    Considering the way the run-and-shoot opens the field up, Houston's
    relatively weak and ill-prepared competition last year, and the 
    ability of the team to hand-pick Weatherspoon's spots, the high 
    average was bound to result.  By the way, what was that rushing 
    average if you have it handy? 
    
    But still, all that from a back who probably won't even stick with an
    NFL team.  From what I saw, Weatherspoon looks like he's carrying
    around at least an extra 20-30 pounds...
    
    glenn
    

    JD, you started the name calling with the groundless charge of
    "disappearing from the notesfile". If you cain stay clean, so will I.
    But don't complain when I turn up the heat.

    re .238
    
    Glenn, you can't have it both ways - either Weatherspoon rushed for
    1,000 yards, or he didn't. As for the comp he faced, yes he ran against
    creampuffs, he also ran against good teams too. Heck, Greg Pruitt ran
    against Kansas, K-State, OSU (when they were weak), Iowa State, and the
    other 6 midgets in the Big 8, and nobody is holding that against him.
    
    BTW, don't let Chuck's bulid fool ya. I remember another UH alumus who
    looked rather misshappen - fella by the name of Robert Newhouse.
    
    He didn't do too badly in the NFL.
    
    (My last R&S note here - I'll go to the Oilers note from now on.)
    
    Doc

    Doc,
    
    I merely stated the truth ;-)
    
    JD

I thought this was the Eagles Note?

      I've been hearing some rumblings about Jim Jenson claiming that
      Buddy Ryan had a bounty on him when they played a few weeks ago.
 
      The funny thing is it dates back to something that happened while
      Jenson was on a Carribean Island last year. I have no clue to
      what the tie is. Anybody out there with some details?

Chuck

    I heard something about that last week, but I didn't get the details.
    After watching the game the Eagles played against the Fish, I think if
    there was a bounty on Jensen, they would have gotten him, cause they
    had opportunity. Buddy's comment was typical Buddy. He said why try to
    get rid of a backup tight end.
    
    As far as the bounty stuff goes, I find it hard to believe any of it.
    There are enough disgruntled ex-Birds around for reporters to go get
    comments from that it would have been leaked by now if it is true.
    Also, a current Dolphin is Mike Reichenbach. He was a member of the
    Eagles during the Bounty Bowl against the Cowboys. You would figure he
    would have spoken up after this latest flap, if there were any truth in
    the rumor.
    
    Dennis
    

      >The funny thing is it dates back to something that happened while
      >Jenson was on a Carribean Island last year. I have no clue to
      >what the tie is. Anybody out there with some details?
    
    They reported on this in the National.  There was some sort of benefit
    basketball game between members of the Eagles and Dolphins, and Jensen
    didn't make any friends with some agressive play.  Put that grudge
    together with Buddy's mentality, and I can believe the whole thing.
    
    Dan

    I just find it incredible that in this media saturated society, the
    press hasn't found someone to spill their guts on the bounty if there
    was one. Maybe Buddy did, maybe he didn't, but it hasn't been proven
    and it's still innocent until proven guilty. The way the Phila. media
    feels about Ryan, if there was dirt to be had they'd have it.
    
    Dennis
    

    Right on the money BobHunt.  Buddy Ryan is truly the consumate coach of
    the 90's, what with his shrewd manipulation of the media.  Jerry
    Glanville falls under the exact same category, IMHO.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    	"Truly the consumate coach of the 90's" But can he WIN the BIG one?
    
    B.A.