Conference 7.286::sports_90

    It ain't over 'til it's over.......
    
    And to have won the division with that pitching staff, well, they've
    already gotten further than most everyone thought.
    
    But, as we see with the Broncos, you merely stink/choke/sip if you
    don't win it all, eh????
    
    -- dg

Boston doesn't seem to have the will to win.  Nor the bullpen.

So much of winning is mental attitude.  Boston doesn't seem to have
it.  That bothers me more than the fact that they are sucking 
royally.

I'm a Red Sox fan, always have been, and won't give up till the
final out, but in this instance, I think that David missed Goliath's
head, and he ain't got no more stones....

Shit, even God must be against the Sox!

Not giving up the ship, but royally bummed,
'Saw

   
 >   To the Red Sox!  The Denver Broncos of the MLB!  The Curse Lives!
 >  
>   Mike

Sorry Mike but the Sox are more like the Cleveland Browns of the AFC.
Jeff

    Mr. Mod, could you please delete .1 thru .3?  They are abusing the
    purpose of a "fold file".
    
    Don't you guys remember the fold file of '86?
    
    Mike

   If it wasn't for Boggs the Red Sox would be TOTALLY humiliated.

   Mike JN

    I do what I can Mike, you should have seen the autographs I had
    to sign...

    
                  If I Only Had A Clue
    
    Actually, if the sox had middle relief they could have won
    either game. The Athletics are'nt really doing anything great yet,
    except pitching.They just have that "AWE" about them. I don't see them
    having much trouble with the National league either, seeing how theres
    no one with a "good" full staff over there.
    
    steveo

     
     First of all, although I know I'm going to get bashed for this,
    Saturday night was another example of why Roger Clemens deserves
    the MVP. A healthy Clemens and the Red Sox likely win against a
    far superior squad when in all honesty they shouldn't even be there.
    But they are. Roger is the main reason why.
     Secondly what's with Wade Boggs and his new team player act.
    First he's yelling 'You gotta believe' to the fans after the Sox
    clinch. Saturday after he homers and the fans go nuts he rounds
    the bases goes into the dugout. He comes back out and tips his hat
    when maybe six people were still cheering. Talk about milking it.
     Thirdly anyone who really believes it ain't over till it's over
    has got a really tenuous grip on reality although I hope the Sox
    win at least one and salvage a shred of dignity.

"We're the dance band on the Titanic, sing Near My God To Thee,
 The iceberg's off the starboard bow, doncha wanna dance with me..."

    Boddicker beats A's 5-3. Sox take 2 of 3 in Oakland. 
    You heard it here first. 

    re .10
    
    If this happens, your name says it all!
    
    

    Re: last 2
    
    Really!  I'm rolling! ;-)
    
    I'd tend to believe someone named Lazurus too ;-)
    
    Mike

    
    What of Lazurus? What of Lazurus?
    
    Sox stink..
    
    
    
    Steve

    I was very surprised and disappointed in the attitude that Wade Boggs
    displayed last night in an interview.  Just a few days ago, he was one
    incredibly psyched-up ballplayer.  Last night, he talked with such a 
    "don't give a shit" attitude I could've slapped him.
    
    Not that I think the Sox can pull this out, but such a pitiful display
    doesn't even merit airtime.  I'm glad my kids didn't see this.......
    
    And he was playing some damned good baseball too, defensively as well
    as offensively......
    
    Hawk

    >Saturday night was another example of why Roger Clemens deserves
    >the MVP. A healthy Clemens and the Red Sox likely win against a
    >far superior squad when in all honesty they shouldn't even be there.
    >But they are. Roger is the main reason why.
    
    An MVP would have looked in the bullpen, spit in his manager's face and
    pulled his cap down over his eyes, grabbed the ball and gone out there
    to pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th to win the game.
    
    Dan

    
    Not to mention maybe end his career.
    
    
    
    Steve

    The only MVP that Roger deserves is the Mainly Vigesimal Pitcher. 
    After getting 20 in his win column he doesn't care about going the
    distance.
    
    
    TC

    One man does not win a series,if you don't score runs you don't WIN.
    I don't care who pitches,you have to score runs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    If the bats wake up the Slobs have a small chance,but even the
    players are ready to pack it in so what the hell.......
    
    A's in a easy 4 game stroll
     
    

    >Not to mention maybe end his career.
    
    All the reports said that his arm is fine again, but he was "tired" and
    "out of shape".  Does anyone think Dave Stewart would've come out of
    that game?  Shoot, Andy Hawkins would've kept pitching in the same
    situation.
    
    Dan

    A's just tied it in the bottom of the 4th.  It's 1-1, 2 outs, and
    Oakland still has a man on 3rd.
    
    I wonder why Barrett isn't playing more.  It is obvious they need
    offense and Marty has been one of Boston's better post-season
    performers.  Especially in '86!
    
    Mike

    Willie Randolph just singled in Baines from 3rd.  A's up 2-1.
    
    Dennis Lamp is warming up.

    Mike, Marty Barrett sucks, that's why.  He's got the range of an ant
    hill, and hasn't hit for a decent average in a few years now.  Even Red
    Sox fans have seen the light on this matter.
    
    Dan

    Walt Weiss is out for the series and would miss the World Series too.
    
    Dewey is upset at long time friend Eck for his little show-boat act
    after wiffing Dewey in game 2.  Evans said, "I thought friends weren't
    supposed to show each other up.  I'm really looking forward to facing
    him again.  I hope it is today!"
    
    Mike

    re .23
    
    According to the radio, WRKO Boston, the throw was low and hit the bag.
    
    The annoucer believed Pena did not have a good grip on the ball.
    
    Bob V.
    

    Randolph singles again.... A's up 3-1

    Double steal, Randolph caught in a rundown.... Steinbach goes for
    home.....  Reed fires home, they've got Steinback dead at home but
    

    Pena drops the ball......
    
    A's 4-1

    I feel good for randolph, he deserves another ring, damn, i wish
    he had stayed a yankee..
    
    dinz
    

    Nelson has relieved Moore.  Dewey leads off the 7th with a single to
    center.
    
    Mike

    
    
    
    
                      sox
                      sux   
                  
    
    

    Nelson gets into trouble (back to back Boston singles by Boggs and
    Burks) and is replaced by Honeycutt.  Honeycutt gets Greenwell to fly
    out to center and Boston strands more runners.
    
    Boggs and Burks are the only ones to get back to back hits in this
    series (they've done it more than once).
    
    Mike

    bottom of the 8th, Boddicker is still in, Eck is warming up.
    
    A's have 1 out and 1 on (D. Henderson just singled).
    
    Mike

    game within a game now:  Dewey is up against Eck.  Dewey promised him a
    payback for Sunday night.
    
    Mike

    Dewey works him to a full count and Eck strikes him out.

thanks for the updates mike...

Sox are toast...Clemens will go tomorrow and will probably have enough gas
for 5 innings...

red sox continue to fail to get the clutch hit....

Can't fault the pitching when they only score 1 run a game...


Metz

    Too bad the winner isn't who scores first ;-)  Sox would be up 3-0.
    
    Mike

    When you don't have a bullpen, you're done.
    
    Anyway, I was thinking of something last night that seems a bit
    strange to me.  Has anyone else noticed that all 4 of Bostons's
    pro teams are coached/managed by rookies?  Milbury never head-coached
    before the Bruins hired him, neither did Rod Rust, Chris Ford or
    Joe Morgan prior to being hired by the Boston teams.
    
    Wonder if this ever occurred before in other cities?
    
    Lee, who is wondering how the A's would do against the Red's relievers

    
    Dan, don't be ridiculous. If Clemens arm was tired and out of shape
    and he kept pitching with it that could cause serious injury. As
    much as I would've liked to see him go I'd rather see him around 
    for a few more years. 
    
    I am extremely dissapointed in this team. I admit I didn't think 
    they had a chance against the A's but it appears to me that the 
    only reason the Sox are down 3-0 is because individually they are
    not performing. Too many mental mistakes in the field and at the
    plate. How many batter's have swung at the first pitch in critical
    situations? Too many. Three costly error's in yesterday's game,
    I can't believe Boggs droppeed that ball. Burks has checked his 
    bat at the gate as well as Greenwell. A few key hit's may have turned
    this series around and even though the A's pitching has been good
    I still feel the Sox hitter's are helping them out.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    > Dan, don't be ridiculous. If Clemens arm was tired and out of shape
    > and he kept pitching with it that could cause serious injury. As
    > much as I would've liked to see him go I'd rather see him around 
    > for a few more years. 
    
    It was precisely the sentiment like Dan's that laid up Clemens in the
    first place, as Joe Morgan has in the past been willing to go along
    with Clemens when Clemens chooses to abuse himself.  No other pitcher
    in baseball, not even Dave Stewart, is asked to throw 165 pitches on a
    sweltering July afternoon, then come back in four days and throw
    another 130.
    
    I will blame Clemens for not being honest with himself and pacing
    himself so that he can pitch a full season, which *is* part of being a
    great pitcher.  He has to be even more so given the mentality of the
    man in the dugout.  I will not blame Clemens for not coming out for the
    seventh last Saturday night.  Only luck had separated him from being
    down, 3-1, at that point, and things like that should be considered in 
    the decision to remove him, not just the actual score.  He was
    finished, and it would have been foolish to let him continue. 
    The hindsight of what happened later should not change that.
    
    glenn
         

    re .46, excellent note.  That's the one problem I have with Clemens and
    the Red Sox' use of him, too many innings pitched early in the year has
    led to burnout/injury at the end of the last two seasons.
    
    
    py

    Re .24
    I thought the media made a little much over the Dewey-Eck
    confrontation. Sure, Evans had a chance to win the game in the 8th, and
    Eck struck him out. It was the crucial momnet of the game,and Eck came 
    through. All he did was pump his fist a couple of times before he
    walked off the mound. I've seen lesser pitchers do a lot more in lesser
    situations. Evans wasn't taliking about it, but finally said that it
    bothered him, and was looking for a payback chance. Maybe it was me,
    but did anyone else read a little smugness into the clean-living Evans' 
    remark that he's seen Eck "drag himself up from the gutter" and that he
    thought Eck was above "that sort of thing"?
    
    re .30 (Sox having lost 8 post-season games in a row) Make that 9 in a
    row.  I dunno about you but, I always thought that it was pretty tough 
    to forget Game 6, 1986.
    
    Tom

    
    	Did you guys see the "comment" Dewey made to Eck when
    	he whiffed yesterday?  I'm not a lip reader but that
    	was an easy one to make out.....:^)
    
    	Claybone

    Steve, from what I heard on the radio, Boggs didn't drop the throw, it
    it the third base bag.  Also, Burks has been one of the more productive
    hitters for the Sox in the postseason (although that isn't saying
    much).
    
    I'll go along with Paul and Glen on this Clemens thing.  Not only is
    there the stamina/injury issue, but following behind him should have
    been the 2 bright spots in the Sox bullpen - Anderson and Reardon. 
    Down the stretch Anderson became the setup man Boston was lacking and
    it looked like Reardon had fully recovered from back surgery.

================================================================================
Note 387.0                     STEWART VS CLEMENS                        1 reply
WLDWST::VALENZUELA                                   18 lines  10-OCT-1990 08:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 383.48                 Boston Red Sox Fold File                                                    17 lines  10-OCT-1990 07:45
                      
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             A HEALTHY  MVP ROGER CLEMENS WOULD HAVE WON AT LEAST
             GAME FOR THE RED SOX'S?
                                     
      
           
            
            
                                         THE SAME MVP ROGER CLEMENS
                                         THAT HAS DOMINATED THE A'S.
                                         CLEMENS vs STEWART PART VII
                                         IS ENDING UP LIKE ROCKY VI.
    
================================================================================
Note 387.1                     STEWART VS CLEMENS                         1 of 1
ROCK::GRONOWSKI "the dream is always the same..."     4 lines  10-OCT-1990 09:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Stewart came out and said the Red Sox were stupid for starting
    Clemens tonight.  What about the A's?  Why not rest Stewart
    for the opening game against the NL team?
    

Pilot:		I've got a hydraulic failure light on my panel.  Not responding
        	to controls

Co-Pilot:	Altitude 25,000....rate of descent 2000 ft/min....

Pilot:		I can't hold her, she's going down....

Co-Pilot:	Altitude 20,000...got an electric failure light here...

Pilot:		She's starting to roll...not responding to control....

Co-Pilot:	Altitude 15,000...rate of descent 2500 ft/min....

Pilot:		Damn, fire warning light, starboard engine....

Co-Pilot:	Got a flame out, port engine....

Pilot:		Throttle back...

Co-Pilot:	Throttles back...

Pilot:		Prepare to eject...

Co-Pilot:	Altitude 7,000...going down fast...

Pilot:		Eject, Eject, Eject...


And so goes another Red Sox season....down in flames.  Somewhere, from
an old TV show, a voice says "We can rebuild them"...Somewhere another
voice says "Jim, they're dead"....

Somewhere Lou Gorman sits and thinks he's down a fine job...  Somewhere
another Red Sox fan sighs, scratches another mark onto the wall to go with
the 71 others there, and sits down to wait yet again....

   Amen, Franwa

   Pennant races oughta be best three of five.

   Mike JN

    I'm in class, so I'll make this quick.
    
    Too many people have figured the A's to be a team of long-ball bashers
    that had pitchers who benefited from a big ball park. Period.
    
    Bull.
    
    The A's are balanced, can execute any phase of the game, and are an
    extremly well rounded ballclub, that doesn't make many mistakes.
    
    Throw in premire clutch players like Dave Stewart, Baines, and
    Eckersley, superb managing AND coaching, and there you have it.
    
    Boggs has played very well, even if the bashers won't give him his due.
    And that's it for the Sox. The A's have done a number on Pena in Game
    3, and watching players like Baines bunt (his 1st in 6 years, and it
    was perfect), and steal (caught the Sox with their pants down didn't
    it), and the general aggresiveness of the A's (tehy'd do the National
    League proud) only underlines the areas where the BoSox are
    ridiculously deficient.
    
    Dr Midnight

    youre such a wiseass.. .don..
    
    

    >Dan, don't be ridiculous. If Clemens arm was tired and out of shape
    >and he kept pitching with it that could cause serious injury. As
    >much as I would've liked to see him go I'd rather see him around 
    >for a few more years. 
    
    Pardon me for continuing to be ridiclous, Doctor Diggins, but the Red
    Sox team doctor, Eyebrows Pappas, says there is no danger of injury to
    Clemens at this point.  Apparently he has been examining regularly
    since the original sore arm in early September.
    
    The issue for coming out after 6 last Saturday was not one of injury. 
    I think a tired Roger Clemens is a better choice than any Red Sox
    reliever.  Apparently Roger didn't want to go without his best stuff. 
    I find fault in that.
    
    Dan

    >Steve, from what I heard on the radio, Boggs didn't drop the throw, it
    >it the third base bag. 
    
    Boggs was late getting to the bag, which is why the throw looked worse
    than it was.  Boggs made the excuse that McGwire was up, a strong
    righty, so he was playing deep, but it looked to me like he fell asleep
    out there, and recovered only to get there late.  The throw from Pena
    actually landed on the bag, but with Boggs in position he can grab and
    easily tag out Canseco who hesitated noticably between 2nd and 3rd.
    
    Dan

    re: the Clemens thing..   Two Herald reporters were openly in
    disagreement in this on a talk show last night...  Tim Horgan on Dan's
    side, and Shalin (and everybody else) on everybody else's side... 
    Horgan used some really ludicrous-sounding arguments, and it could be
    that he's got Ronnie Raygun's disease - what's your excuse, Dan-o?
    
    To say that Clemens has no heart, is a quitter, etc... is just
    ridiculous!  He GOT in this condition because the opposite is true!
    
    And, Dan, did you WATCH any of that game?  Clemens was lucky to get
    outta the 6th alive!  He had nothing!  In fact, his fastball was only
    sporadic after the 2nd inning...
    
    ML
                                      
    

>    Boggs was late getting to the bag, which is why the throw looked worse
>    than it was.  Boggs made the excuse that McGwire was up, a strong


This is true. The throw hit the top of the 3rd base bag. If Wade had gotten to 
the bag in time he would have been able to reach out for the throw instead of 
letting it come to him. It wasn't a great throw by any means but it should have
been fielded and Canseco should have been out at 3rd. Boggs glove was behind
the bag when the throw hit it.

Canseco stoppped almost dead in his tracks between 2nd and 3rd before deciding
to head for 3rd.

Boggs has also looked very slow in fielding a few balls that have gone down the
line at 3rd. 1 of them was a high chopper that he didn't have the quickness to 
reach. He has looked good on several occasions moving to slow rollers and 
choppers hit toward him and getting the short hop and throwing the runners out.

He has had a decent series with the stick but has shown why he is only an 
average defensive 3rd baseman. Some good plays and some plays that don't 
show up as errors but that an above average 3rd baseman would have made. 

Metz

What's the difference....

It's over, kaput, said and done.  Stick a fork in them, honey, they're
done.

We ran the race, fought the good fight, and came up a day late and
a dollar short.  We gave it all we had but weren't up to the
task.

The chicken was good but the bone got caught in our throats.

David squared off against Goliath but didn't have any more stones.

God wasn't on our side.

We robbed Peter to pay Paul, but didn't count on Dave, Jose, Mark
and all the rest.

Honey, you done teased me again.  You let me think that I was gonna
get some, you got me hot and you dropped me cold....
I swore I'd love you till the end of time...but if I have to live another
minute with you I don't think that I can really survive....

(sigh)
There's 72 notches now on the handle of the bat, and I'm seriously
doubting that we'll see a World Series Champion Red Sox squad in
my lifetime.....

Too bad it's too little to late....

it's getting  hot and heavy in oakland. Clemens just booted out of the game
in the bottom of the second inning. score oakland 1 soz 0 at the time.
Clemens just walked Randolph......

the red soxs threw the gatorade bucket on on to the field...

going down as a classless bunch........

mike

    
    Roger found a new way to p***y his way out of a game....
    

    He got himself tossed for arguing balls and strikes by Terry Cooney.
    Morgan is going nuts, gatorade, bats and gum are flying out of the
    dugout....
    
    Oakland is up 1-0, Roger wasn't getting his high strike call.....
    
    bye boston

    Na na na na... na na na na...

    >And, Dan, did you WATCH any of that game?  Clemens was lucky to get
    >outta the 6th alive!  He had nothing!  In fact, his fastball was only
    >sporadic after the 2nd inning...
    
    Yes, I happened to.  If there hadn't have been numerous instances
    throughout baseball history of pitchers going far without their
    fastball, it wouldn't bother me that Clemens elected to sit the rest of
    the game out.  But such is not the case.  And this is the Roger Clemens
    who supposedly become a pitcher instead of a thrower this year.
    
    The guy threw 6 shutout innings.  I know he barely got by the 5th and
    the 6th unscathed.  If he's not hurt (and everybody's saying he's not)
    he should be able to go out there and continue to be effective without
    his best fastball.  
    
    And if you haven't seen this scenario played out plenty of times, you
    just don't watch much baseball.
    
    Dan

 Gaeigo just hit a double it's 3-0 oakland....

 mike

 oh I forgot the other juice tidbit Greenwall and Boggsie combined on a bad
 throw error to help tick Roger off...
 
 mike

   I always wondered what Roger's reaction would be if he was ever
   required to pitch the same strike zone as the rest of the pitchers in
   the majors.

   Whatta game!

   Soccer fans riot and thousands are injured or killed.

   Red Sox fans riot and a bucket of gatorade is hurled onto the field.

   Ya gotta love it!

   Mike JN

    
    This not-unexpected humiliation at the hands of the A's is the reason
    neither the Jays nor anyone else wanted to take the division.
    
    The Yankees were wise to stay as far away from the top as possible.8^)
    
    
    Dickster
    

>                          -< so what is the score?? >-

The last score reported was 3-0 after 2 (in the Red Sox notesfile).
That file, the BASEBALL file and this file have nothing more current.
Sounds like it isn't good news for you-know-who.

    Last I heard, which was about 10 minutes ago, it was 3 zip.
    
    I was listening to the game on the radio and Johnny Bench and the other
    announcer(can't remember his name) both couldn't believe that Terry
    Cooney(any relation to Jerry???), the home plate umpire, booted Clemens
    without so much as a warning.  With the importance of this game to the
    DEAD SOX, it's hard to believe that he would boot a starting pitcher
    in the 2nd without at least going out and telling Clemens that one more
    word and his a$$ was outta there.  
    
    Too many Umps are on a power trip these days and walk around the field
    with a chip on their shoulder, just hoping someone gets close to them
    sos they can load up the boot.
    
    JaKe
    

    End of 7, A's up 3 zip.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    As I type this, Somewhere in California an Extremely FAT Lady is
    clearing her throat.
    
    And the A's are pulling on the broom!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    It is now official, The A's are the AL Champs!!!!!
    
    They now get 5 days off before the series starts.  The World series
    will sort of be like the Christians and the Lions, and I don't have to
    say who the lions are.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    RE: .78
    
    JaKe,
    
    I just saw what Clemens got tossed for.  He was doing a "read my lips"
    arguing of balls and strikes to the ump.  The ump read his lips and
    tossed him.  There was no warning.  The Sox dugout went nuts throwing
    water coolers onto the field.
    
    It was pretty bogus on the ump's part.
    
    	--dan'l

    Listening to CBS radio and an interview with Clemens, Clemens said that
    after the walk on five pitches, he looked at the ground and was shaking
    his head, disgusted with himself.  When he looked up, cooney was saying
    something to him.  Clemens said he replied that he wasn't shaking his
    head at Cooney.  Cooney then allegedly got more vocal to Clemens who
    repeated that he WAS NOT shaking his head at Cooney. Cooney allegedly
    said something else to Clemens about the head shake and Clemens replied
    that he wasn't shaking his F#$%ing head at Cooney and Cooney booted
    him.  Any way I look at it, Cooney, in such an important game, should
    have at least warned Clemens before thumbing him.  This was a playoff
    game and not the 83rd game in the middle of the season where there's
    "always tomorrow."  Although, I do think that Clemens should have kept
    his language in check.
    
    I still think the Umps in general are getting real testy, or is that
    testical???Well they are a bunch of testicals, anyway.
    
    Help hopes horsesh#t
    
    JaKe
    

    final was 3-1.  At least the Sox were consistent!
    
    Mike

    Roger says he didn't say anything that would lead to an ejection.
    
    The ump says he did, and that lot's of A's heard it and told him
    so.
    
    Steward said that the umps have to control the game and that the
    ump was just doing his job.
    
    Wonder if we'll ever know what really happened?
    
    Lee

    Oh, that's really objective!  The umps and the A's all saying that
    Clemens was out of line.
    
    Clemens clearly says the F word.  What the words were around it, only
    Clemens knows for sure.  Certainly the ump isn't 100% sure...he can't
    be because I've seen the clip 5 or 6 times now and it's hard to
    interpret.
    
    Whatever, it didn't make much of a difference in the whole picture. 
    Boston was outmatched.  The A's did not hit one home run the whole
    series.  If Boston couldn't win one of those games...well...
    
    	--dan'l

    	Anybody out there think that the Red Sox management will use
    this as a reason not to sign Clemens and let him go after next year?

    
    Dan, I'm not a Doctor but I play one on TV. How do you know that
    Pappas wouldn't have agreed that taking Clemens out was the best 
    thing for his health? What, did you talk to hinm on the phone after
    the game? By the way I said probable injury, I did not make a 
    diagnosis as you suggested. If Clemens thought he was washed up then
    by suggesting he come out of the game is a TEAM move. What should he
    have done? Served up a coupled of stuffed pork chops to the Bash 
    Brothers? I know the bull pen stinks but a fresh pitcher was the right
    move for the team and for the health of Roger Clemens.
    
    Now as far as Clemens losing his cool....NO EXCUSE! Clemens should've
    just bit his lip, swallowed his pride and kept on plugging along.
    Personally I feel the Ump was a bit over zealous but thats beside
    the point. Alot of the umps have been that way this season. Oakland 
    is a great team and they deserve all the cresit in the world for 
    beating the sox, even though they did rather easily! 8^)
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    Four lousy runs in four games.  One for 18 with men in scoring
    position. 'Nuff said.  The only thing they should have thrown on the
    field was their paychecks, 'cause they don't deserve 'em.
    
    Clark Booth, Channel 5, after the Mike Lynch interview with Rocky
    Roger, dropped a mini-bombshell without really saying anything, when he
    reported that a "high level Red Sox source" said that "high level Red
    Sox personnel" are "very concerned about Clemens" and the "pressure"
    and the "effect of the big time" on their superstar.  Is the guy coming
    unglued?  Did anyone hear any more about this?
    
    Dickster
    

 Sorry announcers, sorry fans but the ump did exactly what he should have.
 Regular season game, post season game you do not use the F-word with the
 umps period. No warning was called for from what someone told me who saw
 it live and the replays he called him a fat f___ a$$____. No reason in the
 world for the ump to have to take that.

 That the jerk can then deny it after really takes the cake. If he was a real
 man which he's not he'd have said hey sorry I lost my cool and said something
 I shouldn't have. Fact of the matter too is he was getting pretty roughed up
 anyways and was going to last much longer anyways..... 

 mike

    Peter Gammons had the same story Clark Booth did and one of the Globe
    writers (not Gammons) had the same thing.  Gammons said it was John
    Harrington who said it.  I believe there is some credence to the story
    given the way Roger has acted this season.  He's wound too tight,
    whether it's through his competitiveness or by the pressure and I'm
    afraid there's really going to be a bad incident someday.
    
    I blame both parties.  I believe Cooney antagonized the situation by
    saying "What did you say?" or in some other way adding fuel to the
    fire, which an umpire is not supposed to do.  Clemens, however, should
    have shut up and not said anything.
    
    Barrett certainly lost it in his last act in a Sox uniform.
    
    John

    According to the paper this morning,  it said that Cooney thought
    Clemens was showing him up and that's why he stepped out and said
    something to him. Clemens just lost his cool.
    
    John

    
    I thought people paid to see the players perform, not the umpires??
    
    
    
    Steve

    Mike, I think I'm 2nd in line for hating Roger Clemens, but from the
    replays I saw, I think that the ump jumped the gun too soon.  Saying
    the F word is not that big a deal.  Had Roger said it while coming off
    the mound or making some other type of gesture, then maybe I could see
    it.  C'mon, these are the big boys, not Harvard crew!
    
    And, the ump saying that by NOT taking off his mask served as a warning
    to Roger, I say a big "huh?"  How is that a warning?
    
    Besides, being a Roger hater, I would've rather seen him go 6 and
    lose legit......
    
    Clark Booth is more of an idiot than he looks.  I'm also very surprised
    at Mike Lynch for being interested in this "high level management"
    story.
    
    I'm actually gaining some sympathy for Roger.......
    
    Hawk

    
    
    Cooney had A's in 4
    
    
    :-)
    
    
    
    Seriously though, an umpire usually will ignore the petty stuff,
    Cooney looked like he was looking for a confrontation.
    
    
    There was also a rumor talked about before the game that they were 
    waiting on Clem. We'll never know...the League will wimp out and
    exhonerate the umps............
    
    bottom line is (IMHO) there should be a better way of getting umps for
    a playoff series...............
    
    Not just rotaion...you have to earn your way just like the teams.
    
    
    Lou

    
    After walking Randolph, Clemen was shaking his head.  Conney admits that 
    he [Cooney] was the first person to say something.  According to 
    Cooney he said, "I hope your not shaking your head at me", at which
    point Roger is alleged to have said, "If you're going to talk to me 
    take your mask off".  Cooney then claims he said, " I'm not going to
    take off my mask and get into a shouting match with you".  At that
    point he calims Roger said the magic words.
    
    He defends his not giving a warning by saying that not taking off
    his mask was enough warning!
    
    Bob V.
    
    
    

    I like Clemens, but a point in Mike Childs' .87 is right on the money:
    
    > Regular season game, post season game you do not use the F-word with the
    > umps period.
    
    ...no warning, no exceptions (see Jim Bouton's "Ball Four" for a whole
    discussion on this).  I don't necessarily agree with this policy, but
    it's been an established one for quite some time.  If Roger did indeed
    utter the expletive in question, he got what was coming to him.
    
    Marty Barrett's actions were totally uncalled for, 'nuff said.
                                  
    
    
    py

Regardless of Roger's language, which was probably enough for a warning
(okay, I like Roger), and maybe enough to get him tossed, Cooney
was *wrong* to start it.   It sounds to me like an ump's ego was 
entering the game, and from anything I've EVER read about umpiring,
you try to be as unobtrusive as possible....

The fact that Cooney looked for the fight if foreign to me.  Baseball
and its officiating has set the precedent over many years of allowing arguing.
It's an accepted strategy of the game.   Contrast that with rugby,
where the referee is called "Sir", and you don't question his calls
otherwise the other team will be teeing it up for a penalty kick and
possibly three points.  The captain is allowed a question, of course,
but beyond that the rest of the 15 keep their mouths shut.  Most
refs will, however, provide a pretty clear warning before awarding the
opponents a penalty.

Cooney, in a game of this stature, should have made a plain and clear
warning.

Clemens bashers and fans alike will always argue now, because the
ump clearly affected, even in a small way, the outcome of the game....


As to the Red Sox, did anyone ever expect that they'd win even one?
I didn't.

They have now lost 10 playoff games in a row.  I think perhaps we should
be talking about the Curse of Bill Buckner instead of the Curse of
Babe Ruth.   In fact, I knew they'd blow it when they had Buck on the
roster this year.....


Sadly,
Chainsaw

    Anyone spot Buckner lurking in the background during last night's
    post-game interviews?

       Billy is working for channel 7 in Boston, covering the playoffs.
                                      Denny

    Sorry Paul and Mike, but I can't go along with that.
    
    Umps are paid to call balls and strikes. Over the last decade, they've
    gone on bigger and bigger ego trips. Theis line about "showing me up"
    is bulls--t by Cooney plain and simple. Clemens shook his head after a
    borderline call. 
    
    BFD. That was NO excuse for Cooney saying jacks--t to Roger. 
    
    I referee and I've heard some pretty raw stuff after some calls, good
    and bad, but the bottom line is this - the players are the game, not 
    the umps. And far too many officials in baseball have a chip on their
    shoulder, and it is tactily condoned by the league offices. I'm afraid
    a ump is going to get too big for his britches, and get his butt kicked
    on the field. Cooney was looking for a reason to trigger an incident, 
    and if Bobby Brown had any guts, he'd reprimand Cooney for adding gasoline
    to a smoldering blaze.
    
    What else could Cooney have done ? 
    
    If he was really that bothered by Clemens' head shaking, he could
    have told Pena to talk to Clemens, he could have taken off his mask and
    warned him, or a few other things. I don't think Roger was blam-less,
    but he didn't warrant ejection at that stage.
    
    And you all know I'm a Dave Stewart fan, but that sanctimonus act he put
    on afetrward was really disappointing. I remember his last regular
    season start in Fenway, and he jumped all over an umpire for about teh
    same reason. Not just a headshake either. He came off the mound,
    exchanged heated words, and it took LaRussa's restraint to keep STEWART
    from being ejected. Maybe he didn't use profanity (I flunked
    lip-reading), but for him to come out like he did was kinda
    hyporcritical.
    
    But he is an Oakland A first, and no A's player went against the party
    line..... :-)
    
    DrM

    You guys are unreal.  Clemens was rightfully booted - and he the
    audacity to lie his ass off on TV afterwards.  Also, ROger did the
    following CLASS things yesterday - he threw a ball into the stands
    while warming up because fans were getting on him - oh sniff, sniff,
    poor Ol Roger.  He bumped a cameraman while going into the dugout
    (on purpose, with a purpose), he acted like a complete ass while
    on the mound, he cussed out Cooney real good, and he DESERVED to
    be booted.  He also bumped an umpire afterwards.
    
    Of course, then the Sox really showed their class -  especially
    Marty Barrett.  Gamons said the Sox should be worried about Roger's
    temper.
    
    He's a spoiled brat who can't win the big one.  He can't beat Stewert,
    and he's a loser.  I was embarrassed to be a Sox fan yesterdday.
     They acted like the 85 Cardinals did in Game 7, with Clemens playing
    the Jaquin Andujar role, and Marty Barrett the John Tudor role.
    
    
    If Roger was an true "MVP" and the 'BEST' pitcher in Baseball, as
    we kept hearing, he would have beared down and fired the ball, instead
    of letting a ball call blow his top.  
    After watching the Sox classless act last night on replay, I thought
    of the condemnation that the sanctimonious crowd in here would be
    putting forth if the team was the Yankees or the Mets - and not
    the 'overachieving' Red Sox.
    
    JD

    
    JD why are you condemning the whole team for the actions of two
    players? Maybe some of the things Roger and Marty did were classless
    but that is no reason to say that the "Redsox" are classless. 
    What did you think about the tirade put on by Lou Pinella just
    a few weeks ago? Is the entire Reds team classless? I agree that
    Clemens is somewhat of a hot head but he was provoked by an umpire
    who had no business in doing so. 
    
    Dock, I too could not believe that shmiel given by Stewart after
    the game. Ugh.. like he never got pissed at an ump! 
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    Joaquin Andujar was quite a bit further out of control than Clemens was
    yesterday.  Andujar was a middle-inning relief pitcher who had been
    buried by Herzog, and he came into a blow-out game looking to be thrown
    out.  He came off the mound at the first available opportunity and got
    clear up to the plate before going beserk.  I have no doubt that Herzog 
    put him in the game for exactly that reason.
    
    I have seen slow-motion replays where players and managers have directed 
    the "F-word" at an umpire and received no ejection.  As Rob Dibble
    commented, "There's no magic words.  You can get away with an awful lot
    out there.  But it's up to the umpire to let you know how much you can
    get away with."  I don't believe that Cooney did that, especially since
    he initiated the dialogue.
    
    Stewart is a class guy but quite frankly I'm getting a little sick of
    some of his comments.  First of all, he stated before the game that
    Clemens shouldn't even have been in there, and criticized Boston
    management for it.  Yes, he's probably right, but he's an opponent
    during a series that is still ongoing, so it's none of his business.
    Secondly, as Doc said, he's also quite a competitor himself and has had
    a few of his own problems with the umps.  He may not be serving his own
    self-interests if he comes out in support of the power the umpires
    apparently have seized over the game. 
    
    I think the most telling comments came from Tony LaRussa, who supported
    Cooney's ejection (what is he supposed to do?), but at least showed
    some restraint by saying that Clemens' competitiveness in a frustrating
    situation is understandable and should not be held against him in the
    future (as his past definitely seems to have been).  He said he's found
    himself in the same position more than a few times.  Given the situation 
    he's in, as Clemens' opponent that day and with more postseason games
    to go, I take these comments as implicit support of Clemens, which
    makes sense if LaRussa is ever to have any credibility when standing up
    against the umpires in the future.  Additionally, LaRussa loves
    Roger, and has said so in the past.  Maybe if the Boston media
    predictably lay in to Clemens all winter, they'll be united some day.
    
    glenn
    

       Good note Dock, you're objectivity is leaking out!
                                        Denny  ;^)

    >Is the entire Reds team classless?
    
    I've followed the team for quite some time, and I can safely say
    yes, the entire team is classless 8^)
    
    OK, OK, maybe just a dozen players or so, but there are one hell
    of a team.
    
    The Wizard

 Maybe Cooney did provoke him Steve, but Roger started it. You can argue
 if a guy is safe or not, caught or trapped a ball but you don't argue
 balls and strikes. It's kind of a unwritten law. The fact that Roger did
 opened him up for a confrontation with Cooney. 

 mike

    Steve,  Yer right, the whole team isn't classless - but I'm frustrated
    by their lackluster performance, and I'm sick of Roger and Barrett.
    Clemens should be fined and suspended.
    
    JD

No Mike, I don't think that by shaking his head Roger started it.

Two games ago I had a penalty called on me.  As I got up, totally
disgusted with myself for giving the other team the ball fairly 
deep in our territory, I was shaking my head, and said "f*ck".
All this while the ref was explaining to me that I can't handle
the ball on the ground.  Obviously the ref knew that my antics
were directed at myself and not him.

Cooney was either looking for a confrontation, feeling his oats,
or what I don't know.  He must have a pretty poor self image if
he has to start something to toss a player.

Roger should have cooled it, obviously (like our guys always
say 'just walk away') but Cooney didn't need to start it....

JMHO,
'Saw

    
    Mike, I thought that all Clemens did was shake his head? Cooney 
    cane out with the first verbal shot, holding his lofty position
    as plate umpire over Clemens big fat haid. 
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    What's really discouraging in all these controversies with baseball
    umpires is that they have gone beyond being the silent and impartial
    judges that they're supposed to be.   They've discovered "fame" and
    they like it.
    
    ESPN Baseball Tonight was interviewing Bruce Froehming, a long-time NL
    umpire, on his views of the Clemens-Cooney spat.   Then they showed
    video footage of Cooney answering questions during a crowded press
    conference.
    
    Couple this with things like the high visibility and notoriety of the
    umpire's union as well as the proliferation of all sorts of exciting
    and crowd-pleasing safe and out calls that look great on the 6 o'clock
    news and I believe we've got a collection of umpires who have gone
    beyond their traditional boundaries.
    
    I think Clemens was out of line but the umpire could have shown more
    restraint and let the moment pass.   All Roger needed to regain his
    composure was a well-thrown pitch.
    
    Bob Hunt

    I missed the game.  What did Barrett do?  Is he the one who threw the
    water coolers onto the field?
    
    Thanks.
    
    	--dan'l

    The Oakland-Boston postseason meetings of late remind me of the
    Yankees-Royals meetings of the late '70s.  N.Y. always dominated them
    until their 3rd or 4th confrontation.  
    
    Sox owe them big time!
    
    Mike

    What is that supposed to mean Slusher ?

    
    > There's a big gap in the comparison
    > between these two clubs and the Yanks and Royals of the 1970s.
      
    Because, to be fair, there's a big gap between the divisions, also.  I
    still think the Sox should have been able to match Toronto's one win of
    last year, though.
    
    glenn
                                

    That's another good point ...  Let's consider the gap between the AL
    East and AL West ...
    
    1980	Royals 3, Yankees 0		West 3		East 0
    1981	Yankees 3, A's 0		East 3		West 3	(tie)
    1982	Brewers 3, Angels 2		East 6		West 5
    1983	Orioles 3, White Sox 1		East 9		West 6
    1984	Tigers 3, Royals 0		East 12		West 6	
    1985	Royals 4, Blue Jays 3		East 15		West 10
    1986	Red Sox 4, Angels 3		East 19		West 13
    1987	Twins 4, Tigers 1		East 20		West 17
    1988	A's 4, Red Sox 0		West 21		East 20
    1989	A's 4, Blue Jays 1		West 25		East 21
    1990	A's 4, Red Sox 0		West 29		East 21
    
    Since the Bosox squeaked by the Angels in 1986, the AL West has won 16
    playoff games and lost just 2.
    
    That's domination ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Re: Dr.Midnight...
    
    
    Don't forget that the A's still four more games to go, with Stewart
    pitching perhaps two of those. Do you really think that eh would have
    said anything to get on the ump's s$%t list...?? I doubt it. Let's see
    how he feels after the World Series. I think it was a GREAT strategy by
    Stu.
    
    Perhaps the Sox will realese Clemens, whereby Oakland will pick him up.
    Imagine the A's with Stewart, Clemans, Welch, and Ekersly...???
    
    

    
    Random thoughts from the National...
    
    The National reports Cooney as saying that Roger called him a 
    gutless f&*&*ing a**hole after Cooney refused to take off his 
    mask and argue with him.
    
    Cooney stated by not taking his mask off and getting into it with
    Roger, he was giving Roger fair warning to shut his mouth......
    
    Also reports say Roger was jockeying umpires from the bench during
    the whole series.  Morgan told him to cool it and got into a shouting
    match with Roger about.....
    
    A good quote from Jim Evans: (Crew chief)  'We can't rewrite the
    rulebook for Roger Clemens...'  You just can't upstage the umps
    like that.
    
    For the 'Roger can't pitch in Big games crowd':
    
    Roger now has a 4.10 ERA in 7 career playoff starts.
                                        

    It's really too bad that people have to demean the As by bashing the
    Red Sox.
    
    The Red Sox kept Rickey Henderson, Jose Canseco, and Mark McGwire
    pretty quiet.  The A's didn't have a single homerun.  The Sox starting
    pitching did a more than credible job.  Other than 1 bad inning, the
    Sox bullpen didn't do all that badly.  
    
    But, the A's found other ways to win.  Willie Randolph filled the gap
    nicely when Weiss went down.  Gallego came up with some big hits
    throughout the series.  Mike Moore put in probably his best performance
    of the season.  Reed and Greenwell were stinging the ball, but the As
    defense was always right there.
    
    Sure it was a sweep.  Sure game 1 was a blowout (although it was still
    close all the way to the top of the 9th).  But the games themselves
    were pretty tight.  I think the problem with the way this series was
    perceived (I've heard it called boring on more than one occasion) was
    that most people had it as a forgone conclusion that the As would come
    out on top.  People were just tuning in for what they perceived as the
    inevitable.  They got what they wanted, and are now sitting around and
    gloating over it.

    
    re: Doc
    
    	Doc, I gotta disagree with ya.  The ump was totally in line
    with what he did.  I also think that you are making a blanket statement
    about officials in general when you say that they are on ego trips
    and that they want to become bigger than the players.  Although
    that might be true of some, that is not the rule of thumb with the
    officials I have been associated with.  Of course, you might be
    just talking baseball, but those types of comments only tend to
    stir the pot.  In your case, for you as an official, you might take
    a lot of verbal abuse.  That is fine for you, but that does not
    mean I have to officiate the same way.  Although I do take a lot
    of verbal abuse, I do have a limit and that limit is when the comments
    become personal.  The umps/officials are there to do a job.  Nothing
    in their contract says that they have to take that type or any type
    of abuse.  I think the ump was right IF clemens attacked him
    personally.
    
    re: general
    
    	A few notes back, someone mentioned _Ball Four_ and Jim Bouton.
    According to Bouton, the magic word was MotherF*er.  Now, seeing
    that players talk and talk to each other, it only reckons that the
    players and the coaches know the umps limit.  If they step beyond
    that limit, they get tossed.  So, I'm sure the players and coaches
    know just how far they can go.
    
    	The other issue deals with showing and ump/official up.  This
    happened only a few weeks ago, but I can't remember the teams. 
    Player X was called out on a third strike and dropped his bat..not
    a slam, or throw, but just dropped it.  The ump tossed him without
    hesitation.  It was the first time I had seen it done, but the ump
    felt that he was being shown up.  As I stated before, the
    umps/officials are there to do a job and they should command some
    respect.  Letting players or coaches make them look like they are
    foolish or stupid by throwing dirt, bats etc. is sending a clear
    message to not only the teams, but to the fans.  Not many of you
    realize the amount of legal lawsuits that are happening due to players
    or fans attacking sports officials.  Seeing the "big boys" on TV
    do such things only reinforce the attitude that all officials are
    dumb, blind, vindictive or jerks.  Officiating is a tough job, and
    if anything, the sports official should get more respect for what
    he does.  Instead, his integrity is constantly questioned...that
    is only when there is a questionable call.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    Dave Stewart throws a temper trantrum over a ball/strike issue in a
    recent game at Fenway park and has to be physically restrained by his
    manager.  Roger Clemens shakes his head after walking a batter on 5
    pitches.  Who is upstaging the umpire?
    
    Sounds to me like Cooney upstaged the ALCS.

    re bill g., I was the one who mentioned Bouton's book; thanks for the
    clarification.
    
    
    py

    >The Oakland-Boston postseason meetings of late remind me of the
    >Yankees-Royals meetings of the late '70s.  N.Y. always dominated them
    >until their 3rd or 4th confrontation.  
    
    Kind of wish it was that true, but it's not, quite.  NY and KC went 5
    games in each series of 1976 and 1977, and I believe 4 in 1978.  The
    first two were classic nail-biters.  In '76 the Yanks were down 2 games
    to 1 and eventually won it in the bottom of the ninth and Chambliss' HR
    after Brett had tied the game with a 3-run blast.  That shot is
    probably my greatest single baseball memory.
    
    The '77 series was also quite tense and memorable.  The Yanks had to
    come from behind in all 3 wins, and in game 5, Martin benched Reggie,
    and called for him to PH in the 8th.  Reggie came through.  I forget
    the starting pitcher, but he only went about 4 innings.  Sparky Lyle
    was a real hero.
    
    I suffered about 10 heart attacks between the 2 series.  They were from
    from dominating performances.
    
    Dan
       

    >        -< So Slasher, what does Dan think about all of this? >-
    
    After the game was over, and I watched Clemens being interviewed a
    bunch of times by various sources, I had sympathy for him and contempt
    for the ump.  In short I believed what Roger had to say (I can't read
    lips that well) and felt jilted, as a lot of Red Sox fans feel today.
    
    But since then, all I've heard is contrary reports to Roger's version. 
    The ump said it went differently; and the A's said it.  Then some AP
    photographer behind the plate said he heard it.  A UPI writer along one
    of the lines heard it.  Gammons hustled around after the game and
    seemed very convinced that Roger just wasn't telling the truth.
    
    My understanding of the situation now is that Roger unleashed a
    mouthful of curses at the umpire, and didn't seem ready to stop until
    he was tossed out.  I doubt that any player has done that and not
    gotten tossed out.
    
    Sure it could have been handled a little more calmly by Jerry Cooney,
    but Clemens already gets lots of special treatment from baseball's
    umpires.  To me it seems he feels he has a special right to confront
    umpires without consequence, and he finally crossed over that line.
    
    Cooney did his job.  If he used greater lenience, he was just
    postponing the inevitable, both for Clemens hitting the showers and the
    Red Sox.
    
    So solute the A's.  They were great, and the played the game as it was
    meant to be played in nearly every phase.  They might even be as good
    as the '78 Yankees!
    
    Nah!
    
    Dan

    	After carefully reviewing the tapes of the game with an expert
    lipreader I must say I am shocked!  Roger said "Tony, give me a
    coffee with two sugars, no cream."  And for this he gets thrown
    out of the game!  Balderdash!
    
    				/Don

    Re Goose G.
    
    Sorry if I sounded like I was making blanket statements. SO I'll
    restate myself :
    
    1) As a ref, I have limits too, I don't take just anything from anyone,
    but I feel that ejections should be a last resort. Cooney did not use
    it as such - *IMO*. To me a ref, even more than the players, have to
    divorce themselves from the emotions of a game - especially in big
    games such as yesterday.
    
    I have a distinct aversion to being shown up, but I can honestly say
    that I wouln't have pulled the trigger on Roger - **given the
    "provocation" (head-shaking) in the incident** .... if Roger had dropped
    the magic word (m.f., c.s.) - I would have heaved him. Cooney could
    have let the incident ride ....
    
    2) I just picked up a National (I'm glad it finally got up here), and
    found out that Roger had been doing soem jockeying in earlier games. It
    certainly colored Cooney's perspective.
    
    3) Dave Stewart showed a lot less self-control, looked a lot more like
    he was showing up the ump two weeks ago than Clemens did yesterday, and
    nobody did anything. And no one felt that the umps lost control.
    
    4) This "Showing Up The Ump" is a double-standard at its finest.
    
    Have you even seen these guys call a third strike ? Leslie Nielsen in
    "The Naked Gun" wasn't that blatant.
    
    Hell, MC Hammer could pick up a few moves from the guy who worked the
    Pirates-Reds game last night ....
    
    Doc 

    Show me a good loser, and i'll show you a loser.  Bunk with this losing
    gracefully stuff...those were some frustrating games...line drives
    right at people, the ball hitting base with Canseco dead to rights at
    third.  So they lost it a little bit...anybody who ever played any ball
    on any level can understand that.  The talk shows and the columnists
    are going to be ripping Clemens and Barrett to pieces.  Clemens is a
    throw-back, he's got a lot of Dick Radtz and Bob Gibson in
    him...mean...i tell you what, he's the type of guy you want in a
    fox-hole with you...this is a tobacoo chewing, hardball game...this is
    not girl's softball.  That's what makes him the pitcher he is, his
    intensity.  We're going here it now, he's immature, he's spoiled, he's
    this and that...so what do they want, some well-behaved gentleman who
    can't throw the ball 85 mph
    
    Who they need to get rid of is those faggots who speak off the record
    and knock the manager and other teammates and don't have the guts to do
    it face-to-face.  And people like Rob Murphy who didn't get anybody out
    all year, and now has the nerve to criticize Morgan for how he used the
    bullpen.
    
    The As are a great team....but they shouldn't  get to
    holier-than-thou...the way some of them were quoted in the paper this
    morning...cause it's easy to judge when you're winning, but great teams
    don't stay great forever.
    
    ra

    
    Re .125
    
    Dan, our suffering is bad enough already, did you have to make it
    legendary by bring up the '78 Yankees? 8^@  <--(trying hard to smile)
    
    Re .126
    
    /Don, thanks for the chuckleacious note.  I needed that.  8^)))
    
    Dickster
    

    
    Aw, c'mon guys, if we can't all unite behind a theme like "Kill the
    Umpire!", what can we agree on?  (Don't answer that...)
    
    glenn
    

    
    re: Doc
    
    	Doc, I understand your position, but somehow I feel that if
    it were you down there yesterday that you would of done the same
    thing Cooney did.
    
    	I think one factor in the favor of the umps is that this is
    only the 8 ejection in playoff history, so it's not a common thing
    and I would like to think that when it happens, it happens for the
    right reason.
    
    	Again, the comments about certain umps "style" is certainly
    not true of all.  Every official develops a style and as long as
    it is withing the mechanics guidebook, what's the beef?  Believe
    me, I have been to an officials camp and they emphasized staying
    away from being theatrical.  I have enough problems with just trying
    to stay alive let alone worrying about "how I look making a call."
    
    	As for the Stewart thing, was it the same crew?  Was it the
    same plate ump?  If it was not, then we are back to the issue of
    some guys have a shorter fuse than others.  Certain officials are
    more giving than others.  Do you think Stewart will carry on over
    a call if Cooney is behind the plate in the future?  
    
    	I guess a real issue with me is that somehow, Clemens is coming
    out of this smelling like a rose.  After all, it's his word against
    the dork behind the plate.  We even here that the comments from
    the A's can't be taken seriously because after all, they are the
    enemy.  I'm not saying the ump is prince charming and that officials
    never make mistakes, but somehow the real issue isn't quite being
    addressed.
    
    	One last thing and then I'll go away.  I was surprised that
    the ump was given permission to speak.  I don't know about the other
    sports, but in the NBA, the refs are forbidden to speak to the press,
    and frankly, I'd never seen an official give a press conference.
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    
    I want to see a Terry Cooney - Muhammed Ali matchup!
    
    

    Goose, I hear where you are coming from, but, this incident is being
    widely viewed as a symptom of a problem in major league baseball which
    is coming to a head.  Over the past few seasons, umps have been accused
    of pushing issues, and baiting players.  There are even accusations
    that umps are inviting bodily contact by getting into an aggrated
    player/manager's face so that he doesn't have much choice but to bump
    into the ump and automatically be ejected.
    
    It also begs the question of why baseball umps get to the big games on
    rotation rather than on merit like some of the officials in other
    sports.

    re .131
    
    Goose, Cooney was allowed to speak to the press because the Umps Union 
    gives him protection to speak, and in fact many see that as a problem. 
    Umpires are virtually tenured, and because of the union, are not as 
    accountable as in the past.
    
    As for Clemens, I don't see him as a hero. I think he needs to channel
    some of that fire before he gets burned bad by it. I also believe that
    he needs to have a manager/pitching coach who will make him toe the
    line whether he likes it or not. I don't think Morgan is the man. 
    
    (Aside : Murphy and others are right - Morgan can not handle a bullpen
    to save his life.)
    
    Goose, if Roger had cursed me, I'd probably would have tossed his a**.
    What I'm also saying is that I don't think that I would have taken a
    head bob as an invite to start a confrontation.
    
    But I will conceed that Roger probably helped grease his skids with the
    Game 2 incident.
    
    What really worries me is that Keith is right, and I see, within 2
    years at most, an umpire will bait a player, and he is going to kick
    the sh*t out of the guy. Vincent will wimp out and support the ump,
    causing a player revolt. Or he will also discipline the ump, and the
    umps will walk out. A no-win either way. But someone will have to do
    the right thing or else ...

    Roger outright LIED on TV last night.  LIED- right to everyone faces
    with his lambrained "aw shucks, I wasnt doing nothing, just shakin
    my haid..."  crap.  He must thing we are all stupid, and judging
    from the reaction in here he may be .........
    
    He blew up, he acted like an Ass, and then he didn't have the cajones
    to admint that he did something wrong - lying like Richard Nixon,
    and all the blind Sox fans are yelling 'kill the ump.'   What a
    farce.
    
    JD

    
    re: .133
    
    	I certainly agree that that issue needs looking into.  My position
    on that issue is that we have really only heard one side of the
    story.  Since most officials are either banned from speaking to
    the press, or are smarter and refuse to do so, all we hear is the
    other side.  Just look at the majority of opinions on the Clemens
    matter.  Most of it is anti-umpire.  Sure they have spoken to umpires
    to get their opinion, but most of the press has been focused on
    Clemens the choirboy.  I like Clemens, but I'm not that stupid to
    believe and then latter see and hear from a number of various sources
    that he did go to far.  Believe me, I have been there with the adult
    athlete.  I have been physically threaten every year I have officiated.
    I have been called every name in the book and then some.  I have
    been intimidated a few times too.  So, I know some of what goes
    on.
    
    	Again, I'm not saying that there aren't any bad apples.  Certainly,
    all the players and managers are not angels, so there are problems
    on both sides, and those problems should be dealt with.
    
    	As for your comment on how the umps are selected I couldn't
    agree more that it should be based on ability and not on years of
    service.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    I think it all boils down to whether Cooney gave Clemens a fair
    warning.  I think we all agree that in all fairness, Clemens should've
    gotten some sort of warning.  Even Cooney defends himself by saying he
    gave Clemens a warning.  But, was what Cooney said was his warning- NOT
    removing his facemask- really a fair and *obvious* warning?  I can't
    see how it was.  If anyone can see how it served as an appropriate
    warning, please let us know how and/or why.
    
    Gawd, I wish this didn't happen.  I'm actually starting to like
    Clemens.  It's like one of those WWF bad guy turns good scenarios.  :-)
    
    Hawk  

    Hey JD, I ain't no Sox fan, but I sure is stupid!
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Hawk

    Red Slobs lost
    A's swept,no problem
    Clemans Lied
    Evans got pissed at the Eck
    And Cooney did his job.
    
    Joe Morgan and Rod Rust should get together and trade secrets
    they both stink!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    

Re: JD the Sox fan

Please tell us exactly what Clemens said. You claim he's lying 
because you can read his lips. WHAT DID HE SAY?

It's been stated in the RED Sox conference that the none of the 
accounts of what Roger said agree, The UPI account differs from 
Roger's which differs from the A's which doesn't agree with 
Cooney's? 

JD get to the media with this lip reading this and get this 
resolved ok?

daryll

    re. 134
    
    Morgan may not know how to handle a bullpen, but Murphy's got some
    nerve complain - every time he pitched the other team knocked the hell
    out of the ball, so he stopped getting the ball...why is the guys who
    are 0-6 with a 7.00 era are the ones to complain.
    
    
    ra

    Ron, Eckersley said that he could pitch for Morgan. and more than a few
    people believe that the poor handling of the pitching staff may
    influence Boddicker (17-game winner) to leave Beantown. 
    
    Actually, considering the number of arm injuries and burnout on this 
    staff over the last few years (Boyd, Clemens, Hurst, Boddicker and
    Murphy), and the blatant misuse of Reardon (which even he complained
    about - hey, something's wrong. We sometimes confuse ERA and IQ ...
    maybe Murphy sipped and slurped this year, but he's right. (And a few
    people think that 1990 was a matter of time, given they way Morgan used
    him '89) .....

    
      After seeing all the sportscasters and reading all the newspapers
    the thing that disturbed me most was reading that several members
    of the A's said that even before yesterday Roger had been hollering
    obsceneties from the bench including several insulting remarks aimed
    at Bob Welch and the fact that Welch is a recovering alcoholic.
    I'd like to believe it's not true but in my heart I know it is.
    He has disgraced not only himself but the entire Red Sox organiz-
    ation. I hope  he never wears a Red Sox uniform again but he will.
    He puts fans in the seats so anything short of murder or child mole-
    sting is forgivable and let's face it the club itself has not exactly
    covered itself in glory with its minority hiring record so bringing
    Clemens back won't be an ethical dilemna for them. They don't have
    any ethics. They'll probably make Morgan the scapegoat.
     I don't remember ever feeling this bad about being a Sox fan, not in
    '67  or '75 or '78 or '86. It hurt to lose in those different years
    but we didn't go out like we did this year. What should have been
    a good year despite the trouncing in the ALCS has been ruined by
    one emotionally retarded athlete and a dimwitted benchwarmer.

    Hey LEZAH::RANDERSON!  Welcome back!
    
    Mike

    Re .143
    
    If what you reported is true, that he was taking shots at Welsh,
    then perhaps I can understand why Cooney did what he did.  But,
    it's still wrong.  By that, I mean Cooney should have made a clear
    and unmistakable warning.  
    
    Let's be realistic here.  How many of us have pushed someone to
    the point of being warned?  Parents, teachers, siblings, supervisors,
    etc.  I know I have.  I knew about where the limit was, but I sometimes
    pushed on it to see how much it would bend.  And usually a warning
    was perceived, so that I knew if I continued to push I was asking
    for it.  It's human nature to push.  If Cooney had a history of
    not giving warnings, then too bad for Roger.  Or, if it was well
    known that saying certain words and phrases automatically negated
    the need for a warning, fine again, Roger was wrong.  But, from
    what I've read, Cooney felt he gave a warning for head-bobbing by
    not removing his mask.  How many umps do this?  Is this a trademark
    of Cooney?  I've never heard of it before.  Personally, I think
    that Cooney tried to cover his feelings for Roger with this weak
    attempt, and then felt justified to toss him for any additional
    transgression.
    
    On the other hand, Roger was just plain stupid for using certain
    words/phrases.  Perhaps he lost his cool, maybe he's just a jerk.
    whatever, he was wrong.
    
    So, two wrongs don't make a right.  Three lefts do, but not 2 wrongs.
    
    I don't think it had any effect on the series, the A's are by far
    the strongest team in the AL, maybe in baseball.  As was stated
    in here earlier, they didn't need the HR to win, or even extra bases.
    They play sound, solid, fundamental baseball.  Give credit to the
    players for performing, but also give LOTS of credit to LaRussa.
    
    I can't stand Ricky, or Jose.  But, I love to watch baseball played
    the way it's supposed to be played, and the A's do just that.

    Lee

    I'll tell you what if I was a player for the Red Sox, I would have
    walked up to God's gift to pitching and let him have it.  In the
    biggest game of the year, he couldn't keep his mouth shut and let
    his pitching do the talking.  There was absolutely no reason to
    hurl personal insults at an umpire in that situation and get yourself
    tossed.  Boston would be better off in the long run without him....
    He is one of the biggest whiners in sports today.....
    
    Some of his classics have been....
    
    - Crying because the Sox don't provide anyone to carry his luggage.
    - Threatening to beat up members of the press that report on his
      personal life.
    - On several times he has sought to get members of the publicity
      and travel staffs fired because they did not cater to his every
      whim.
    - Punched a door and almost injured himself for the playoffs(putting
      the Red Sox as a team at risk) because Morgan did not close
      the lockerroom to the press after winning the league.
    - Took himself out of the biggest game of the year with a senseless
      berating of an umpire because he didn't get a strike call in a
      1-0 game.
    
    I love to hear people from this area complain about Jose Canseco,
    especially when they have the premier 'me-first', selfish player
    in the game(Clemens).  At least Jose is a team player.......
    
    Get rid of him Boston, you'll be better off without him.....
    
    Cap

    hi cappie,
    
    still a Capitals fan?
    

    
    I just heard Clemens on WBCN at 8 o'clock. He still stands by his
    original statements he made after the game. He also said that it's
    " all right there on the tape." and said that Pena could barely hear
    what he was saying but the Ump in right field caught everyword. He 
    feels that Cooney was holding a grudge from the previous game for 
    blowing that call on Rivera. I guess the whole dugout got on Cooney
    and Clemens thought that he may have been singled out. He also
    mentioned  the bogus strike three call on Reed and thought that his 
    arguing that call may have made him a target. He does not deny that he
    did use the F word and also does not deny that after Cooney tossed
    him he called him every word in the book. He seemed very relaxed and
    loose during the interview, denied Harringtons allegations that he was 
    stressed out and could not believe that the camera guy thought he 
    deliberately pushed him, he said he only had 4 minutes to get on some
    Atomic Balm and the tunnel way was jammed packed with reporters and 
    he simply bumped into the guy on accident. 
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    Dinz it's Doogie Howser not Doogie Hower! Still can't type! 8^)
    
    
    
    
    Steve

 I heard Roger too this morning and for the other side of the story I have
 to say hogwash. He mentioned the Rivera play, Jody Reed stepping out and not 
 getting time, and Jody supposedly being punched out on a pitch a foot and
 half outside as the buildup to why Cooney was so mad at him and the team
 in general because they were ragging on him from the bench. As always
 true professionals to the end letting their mouths do the talking instead
 of their sticks. He also stated that he wasn't worried about his contract
 cause he did what he set out to do this year and was very happy. It's
 only his business to pitch period. For such a fiery competitor he sure didn't
 set very lofty goals for himself then. I would think winning some playoff
 and series game would be more important to a guy then just acheiving 20
 wins but hey it is Roger....

 did wade get any hits with men on? 

 mike

    >	did wade get any hits with men on? 
    
    Did Wade get up that often in the series with men on base?
    
    
    py

Yeah Paul decent point can't say for sure as I didn't see all the games
but I do recall seeing up three times with men on base. One was a K,
one a FC and the other a double play. The other 4 times that I saw
him get up with no one on he got 3 singles and that pop fly HR....

mike

    
    Mike what else are we supposed to expect from you?
    
    
    Steve

The one thing that really does bother me, if it's true, is the
inability of the Boston team to keep their mouths shut.

I realize people get caught up in the game, but it is possible to 
keep from ragging on the ref.

In rugby, if the ref gets pissed off that you're questioning his
call, he gives the other team a penalty kick, and it could damn well
cost you three points.

We have a very simple rule, which the captain of each side enforces:
Only the captain talks with the ref about calls.  Last week, we
had some really bogus calls called on us, and after a good twenty
minutes of this, when Boston was awarded the put in on the scrum,
Teddy, one of our flankers, said "Bogus call...no way".  Fortunately,
the ref was fairly leniant, and asked him what he said.  (cf. plain,
if not explicit warning).  Teddy said "Nothing Sir, just talking to
myself".

(Of course, none of this precludes the choruses of "Thank you, Sir"
when he makes a good call our way late in the game ;^))

But, bottom line, I think that the discipline on the teams have gotten
sloppy, and combined with the tradition, or almost *strategy*, 
of arguing calls, it leads to this situation.....

Perhaps the ball clubs (all of them) should work on a little mental
discipline as well as hitting, fielding and sliding....  That way, if
an ump does bait you (as I feel Cooney did), it won't work.....

'Saw

Posted with the author's permission.

            <<< HARBOR::SHPLOG$DUA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RED_SOX.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Red Sox.... 1990 >-
================================================================================
Note 190.46              Worst ump judgement calls ever?                46 of 52
WORDY::JONG "Dreaming of one more strike"           143 lines  11-OCT-1990 21:46
                    -< We're talking f*ckin repartee here! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I asserted that ballplayers habitually swear, to the point that
    using profanity is not a credible reason for ejection.  I have two
    sources handy that indirectly support my claim.  In the first, note the
    profance manner of a seasoned professional official.  In the second,
    taken from baseball, note the relentless stream of obscenities that
    passes for conversation in baseball.  Though I have censored the words,
    you will get the idea.  It's quite funny, really.
    
    And you want to toss Roger for using the F word?  How droll.
    
    [This article describes in passing a near-fight between Charles Barkley
    of the Philadelphia 76ers and the New York Knicks.  Note
    bene: Charles Oakley was injured and not dressed for the game, but was
    on the bench when the altercation started.  sfj]
    
    Earl Strom had had enough.  He had already whistled Barkley for a
    technical foul, or "T'd him up."  Now he did the same for Oakley,
    and summarily threw him out of the arena; Strom pointed dramatically
    toward the locker room several times to make sure that Oakley
    and everyone else got the point.  Then he called the players from both
    teams into a huddle and launched into a *profanity-laced
    scolding, loud enough for their coaches to hear* [emphasis mine--sfj].  
    "I told them that
    people had paid money to see the greatest players in the world,
    not to see a bunch of hoodlums out on the floor, punching and shoving,"
    Strom recounted to me after the game.  "I told them that I
    was going to toss the next guy who as much as raised his hand to
    scratch his head."
    
    It was a classic Strom solution.  A less experienced or less confident
    referee might have overreacted and bounced Barkley from the
    game as well, thereby compromising the 76ers' chances and damaging the
    show.  But Strom had managed to restore order while keeping
    the teams' stars in action.  His masterstroke was the ejection of
    Oakley -- a strong statement with no effect on the game's outcome.
    And by issuing TWO technicals Strom cancelled the free throws...
    
    [The New Yorker, "The Right Call," September 14, 1990 [I think], pp
    48-49].
    
    [This article is a transcript of the on-field eloquence of
    Tommy Lasorda, who was wired for sound
    during the 1977 World Series for the highlight film.  As we join
    Tommy, it is the
    top of the second inning of Game 4, Doug Rau has given up three
    straight hits for a 1-0 Yankee lead, runners are on second and third, 
    and there are no outs.]
    
    Dodger Stadium announcer:  BATTING SEVENTH, NUMBER 9... THIRD BASEMAN
    GRAIG NETTLES.
    
    (A pause as Lasorda walks out to the mound; Rau apparently says
    something or makes a gesture indicating he wants to stay in the
    game.)
    
    Lasorda:  Fug no.  You can't get the fugging left-handers out for
    Christ All-fugging-mighty.
    
    Rau:  I feel good, Tommy.
    
    Lasorda:  I don't give a shift you feel good -- there's four
    motherfugging hits up there.
    
    Rau:  They're all fugging hits the opposite way.
    
    Lasorda:  I don't give a fug.
    
    Rau:  I got a left-handed hitter.  I can strike this motherfugger out.
    
    Lasorda:  I don't give a shift, Douggie.
    
    Rau:  I think you're wrong.
    
    Lasorda:  Well, I may be wrong, but that's my goldarn job.  I --
    
    Rau:  I ain't fugging hurting.
    
    Lasorda: I'll make the fugging decisions here.
    
    Rau:  (unintelligible)
    
    Lasorda: I'll make the fugging decisions here.  Okay?
    
    Rau:  You let three runs get up on the fugging board yesterday.
    
    Lasorda:  I DON'T GIVE A FUG!
    
    Rau:  Hey, Tommy --
    
    Lasorda:  DON'T GIVE ME ANY SHIFT, GOLDARN IT!  I'll make the fugging
    decisions.  You keep your fugging mouth shut, I told ya.
    
    Unidentified infielder:  (unintelligible) get back off the mound.  You
    want to talk about it, talk about it inside.
    
    Lasorsa:  You talk about it inside my fugging office.
    
    Infielder:  I'm just saying, talk about it inside.  This is not the
    place to keep talking about it.  Okay?  That's all I'm trying to
    say.  I'm just trying to avoid a fugging scene out here, that's all.
    
    Lasorda:  Right.  Fugging great for you to be standing out here talking
    to me like that.
    
    Rau:  If I didn't feel good, I wouldn't say anything.
    
    Lasorda:  I don't give a shift, Doug.  I'm the fugging manager of the
    fugging team.  I got to make the fugging decisions --
    
    Announcer:  COMING IN TO PITCH FOR THE DODGERS --
    
    Lasorda:  -- and I'll make them to the fugging best of my ability.
    
    Announcer: -- NUMBER 36, RICK RHODEN.
    
    Lasorda:  It may be the fuggign wrong decision, but I'll make it. 
    Don't worry about it.  I'll make the fugging decision.  I gave
    you a fugging chance to walk out of here.  I can't fug around -- we're
    down two games to one.  If it was yesterday, that's a
    different fugging story.
    
    Rau:  There's a left-handed hitter coming up, what about that?
    
    Lasorda:  I DON'T GIVE A SHIFT!  You got three, three left-handed
    hitters, and they all got fugging hits on ya.  Whoever  that is,
    Jackson and that fugging other guy.  They all bat, they all hit -- that
    guy that just hit the ball was a left-hander, wasn't he?
    
    Rau:  I jammed him.  You know, the inside part of the plate --
    
    Lasorda:  I don't give a shift if you jammed him or not, he didn't get
    out.  I can't -- I can't let you out there in a fugging game
    like this.  I got a fugging job to do.  What's the matter with you?
    
    (Rau finally leaves.  Lasorda eventually returns to the dugout.)
    
    Lasorda:  What a fugging pain in the asp, that Rau.  I hate to bring
    him into the second inning with a fugging left-hander.
    (unintelligible) we can't give 'em two more this fugging early.
    
    ["Talking Motherf---ing Baseball, Godd--- It!," SPY, June 1990, p. 49.]
    
    

    Just an aside but doesn't Dave Stewart do a good Micheal Jackson 
    impersonation. Sounds just like him.

    Daryl,
    
    I think no one disagrees with the use of profanity on a sporting
    field, they problem lies when it is directed at an official as a
    personal insult.  There's quite a difference and I honestly believe
    that Roger did just that.  I saw quite a few "you's" mouthed by
    Roger in his temper tantrum.
    
    Cap

   Regarding the warning:

   The warning was not Cooney NOT taking his mask off.

   It was Cooney saying, after Clemons yelled `take your mask off if you
   wanta talk to me':
   " I'm not taking off my mask to get in a yelling match with you"

   That was the warning.

   In other words:
   `Don't give me any crap'

   Clemons proceeded to do just that... in spades... and got the boot.

   Mike JN

    Was it my imagination or did I see on the news that one of
    Massachusetts' Congressmen yesterday was using the podium in the House
    Of Representatives in Washington to complain about the Clemens-Cooney
    incident ???
    
    Is he running for re-election in November ???  If so, perhaps he ought
    to be told to focus on other more meaningful issues such as the budget,
    the oil crisis, and the savings and loan mess and forget about Roger's
    temper tantrums and Cooney's itchy trigger finger.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
   > " I'm not taking off my mask to get in a yelling match with you"
    
    Which Cooney by his own admission had already started.  Yeah, that
    sounds like a reasonable way to warn a player to me.
    
    Clemens may indeed be a psycho, but if all he said to Cooney was "Get
    your bleepin' ass behind the plate and I'll throw the ball" (which is
    Dave Stewart's version and not the Cooney/Phillips version of "you 
    gutless bleeper-bleeper"), then Clemens was wrongly heaved without a 
    warning.
    
    This is a baseball game, boys, played for high stakes by highly-paid
    athletes to the rabid enjoyment of millions, who whether they deny it or
    not are also intensely into the competition, perhaps more than they
    should be.  Something goes awry, the nation gasps and throw its
    collective arms up.  This is not a tea party.  Those who are offended 
    by some colorful language at a game at the professional level are into 
    the wrong recreational vehicle, in my opinion.
    
    By the way, Cap, where is all this indignation when Bobby Knight throws
    his little tantrums?  Roger didn't throw any chairs or anything and he
    ain't even a coach, a leader.  But I'm sure millions will falsely brand
    Clemens based on this incident.
    
    glenn
     

    Youre exactly right  Bob, see how out tax dollars get spent?
    
    
    dinz
    

    A question for all of you lip readers:  Did the torrent of expletives
    come before or after Clemens realized he had been ejected?
    
    I can't believe some of the wimpy replies in here.  There is a long
    tradition of heckling from the bench of opposing players and umpires. 
    As Mr. Jong stated profanity is also a part of the game.  You may not
    like these facts, but you shouldn't stick your head in the sand and
    think that Roger Clemens and Marty Barrett are the only players to have
    resorted to such tactics.
    
    Cap, if you believe that Boston doesn't need Clemens, then I guess you
    also believe that NY didn't need Babe Ruth, and Detroit didn't need Ty
    Cobb.

Probably the clown from Haverhill, Aponte or something like 
that...

But, then again, he is from Mass and probably doesn't even 
realize there IS a problem, hell it took em a couple of years to 
realize they had a budget problem...

daryll

    Now, now, Darryl, be nice!  
    
    BTW, how much has your property tax gone up in the last 2 years?  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    It was Silvio Conte, one of the few (only?) Massachusetts Republican 
    reps, who covered himself in shame by going so far as to refer to the 
    umpire as Terry "Loony" Cooney (twice!).  It was pretty funny though, 
    as Conte barely seemed to able to read the damned statement without 
    fumbling it.
    
    Competence in action.
    
    glenn
    

    From all accounts I've read, the unwritten rule is to not use
    'you' when cussing, and from all accounts, Roger did.  
    
    From my point of view (my opinion, okay Glenn?) I'd rather have
    umps who don't stand for that type of temper tantrum, and don't
    take taht type of personal abuse, then to have them simply allow
    players, especially pampered star players, to mouth off to them,
    cuss them out, or verbally or physically abuse them.  
    
    Was throwing Roger out 'Good for Baseball'??  Is allowing 'star'
    pitchers to argue and cuss out umpires 'good for baseball'?  
    
    I think its hard for many Sox fans to swallow this incident, since
    they've been used to the Boston Media ingraining in their haids
    that the type of incident and behavior we saw exhibited by the Sox
    in Game 4 only happens to 'other' teams - you know, the teams that
    inhabit the left coast or New York, or Philly. 
    
    JD

    That's him, Silvio Conte.
    
    Funny thing is when I heard him twice say "Looney Cooney", I thought
    for sure that he had hired T as his speechwriter.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Glenn,
    
    Get your facts straight before shooting off the lip.  I have condemned
    Knight for his temper tantrums, throwing of chairs, quiting against
    the Russians, poor choice of words, psychological warfare against
    players, etc.  It public record and I've never denied any of that, 
    I just offered another view of incidents that were blown out of
    proportion by people that don't have a clue about what went on during
    a certain situation.
    
    So do a little research first.......
      
    Cap

    Clemens used the F-word before he got tossed.

    Fahrfergnugen?
                                     Denny

    Here's a good one that I just picked up on.....
    
    Clemens alledgedly threatened Cooney three times as they were taking
    him off the field.  He said he would find out where Cooney lives
    and would get him.
    
    Richie Phillips said.  "The umpires in the crew told me," Phillips
    said what Clemens yelled at Cooney after the ejection.  "It's bizzare."
    
    Roger is losing it...... :-)
    
    Cap

    
    Sorry, Cap, didn't see the line "Get rid of him, Indiana, you'll be
    better off without him" in there.
    
    glenn
    

    
    > I think its hard for many Sox fans to swallow this incident, since
    > they've been used to the Boston Media ingraining in their haids
    > that the type of incident and behavior we saw exhibited by the Sox
    > in Game 4 only happens to 'other' teams - you know, the teams that
    > inhabit the left coast or New York, or Philly. 
    
    This, and not your "opinion", JD, is what I have a problem with
    (actually it was the "sactimonious" comment that accompanied it which 
    set me off in RED_SOX).  I don't know if you've had any chance to read
    the Boston papers lately, but anytime the Sox have even slumped this
    year the media has been all over them as a bunch of characterless slobs, 
    as usual.  They're breathing down Clemens' neck like a pack of dogs 
    right now.  Headlines today from the Globe: "Rocket has become too hot 
    to handle"; "The sad realization-- city full of bad sports".
    
    If you're talking the Celtics, historically I'd probably agree with you, 
    but I'm not familiar with this special treatment the Red Sox get that 
    has so obviously brainwashed us all.  On the contrary, mostly it has
    gone the other way, contributing to the overwhelming cynicism that most
    die-hard Sox fans exhibit.
    
    glenn
    

    No Glenn,
    
    Knight does too many positive things for the students, school and
    community for me to demand his leaving.  His positives far outweigh
    the negatives.  I'm not going to get into a Knight subject.  If
    you'd like to know what he adds to the community then send me mail.
    We've had enough Knight propaganda in this file(both good and bad)
    to last a lifetime.  If you can show me what Clemens adds to Boston,
    the team and the community outside of his great pitching than I'll
    retract it all.  He definately hasn't brought them a championship
    and judging by his post-season choke jobs I doubt he ever will.
    Boston needs players like Dave Stewart, Dave Henderson, Carney
    Lansford, etc., and need to get rid of malcontents like Murphy,
    Clemens, etc.  My contention is that Clemens is a time-bomb waiting
    to explode and definately puts himself before the team and organization.
                                  
    He knew that arguing balls and strikes combined with a personal
    insult would get him tossed from the most important game of the
    year, but he still did it.  The umpire should not be blamed.
    
    Red Sox fans will boo guys into retirement that have been productive,
    team-orientated players(Marty Barrett, Jim Rice, Bob Stanley) but
    will put up with a temper-tantrum, whiner like Roger Clemens even
    when it costs them their only chance at winning.
    
    Strange isn't it.... 
    
    Cap
                                                   

Team Oriented? Jim Rice?

    I'm more considering earlier in his career Daryl.... Wasn't he team
    captain for many years and outside his last year or so what incidents
    were caused by Rice that wouldn't characterize him as a team player?
    
    I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am.  I was under the
    impression that Jim was a no complaints, team orientated player
    for his first 12 or so years with the Sox.
    
    Cap

    
    I agree, Cap, that's why I brought up the analogy.  I like Knight. 
    He's a winner.  I feel Clemens is the same.  The reason I brought
    Knight up, is that more often than even Clemens, he has done some 
    very irrational things that he *knew* would get him tossed from 
    games, or possibly even arrested.  He has thrown tantrums.  He has also
    said some very stupid things to reporters and acted with pettiness
    towards complete innocents.  Yet you still like him, as I do Clemens.
    
    From what I understand, Clemens does a lot of charity work and is very
    good with children.  That's irrelevant to me, but if it makes you feel
    any better...
    
    glenn
      

    I guess my reaction is that even though I like Knight, I still was
    embarrassed and distraught about his actions.  I'm surprised that
    more Red Sox fans aren't pissed with Roger's actions and how he got 
    himself tossed from such an important game.
    
    Maybe they all believed that there was no chance for the Sox to
    win.
    
    I would rather see the Red Sox get some return for Clemens than
    suffer through the aggravation that he will give them in the coming
    years.  Clemens could bring in 4 or 5 very good players and it is
    a strong possibility that he will become a free agent.  That's why
    I said to get rid of him now, while they still have a chance.
    
    Cap

This does go a bit far, but some points are valid...         
    
Article         5808
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (FREDERICK WATERMAN, UPI Sports Writer)
Subject: Rice's absence a boon for Bosox
Date: 6 Oct 90 21:10:02 GMT
 
_C_o_m_m_e_n_t_a_r_y
	BOSTON (UPI) -- Jim Rice's last season with the Boston Red Sox was
1989.
	In 1990, the players hailed team chemistry as a major reason for
their surprising success.
	These two facts are not unrelated.
	First off, you must realize that Jim Rice is not a fun guy. He has no
smile lines.
	For 16 years, he was the forbidding presence in the Red Sox locker
room. Rice sat alone, his back to his locker, staring fiercely at anyone
who challenged his New York subway stare -- you know the look, the one
which makes everyone else get off the car even when it's not their stop.
	A master of sullen intimidation, Rice could sometimes be stirred into
action -- like when he ripped a sports writer's shirt. One person wrote
that Rice made ``tying his shoes into a hostile act.'' Another said that
Rice spent the last few months of 1989 serving as a ``traveling
ambassador of ill will.''
	At spring training in 1985, a Toronto sports writer said Rice had
never received the acclaim he deserved. He approached Rice, whom he had
never met, and when he was within 20 feet, the outfielder looked at him
and said, ``get away from me, you ------------.'' The Toronto writer decided
to pass on his Rice story.
	On the field, Rice was an outstanding player. Statistically, he is
borderline Hall of Fame, with 382 home runs, 1,451 RBI and a .298
batting average. But he was never embraced by Boston's fans, who were as
indifferent to him as he was to them. Rice was never a clutch player and
jokes about his double-play grounders were cruel: ``Will they retire No.
14 for Rice or 6-4-3?''
	Rice was a black player in a predominantly white city. Was this the
reason for his tension, his malevolence? ``No,'' answered a veteran
sports writer. ``He was that way when he arrived.''
	Rice had a music loudspeaker above his locker. When a radio reporter
came over after a game, looking to tape Rice's comments, the outfielder
was glad to oblige -- after cranking up the music and rendering the
interview unusable.
	Why should the absence of Jim Rice make such a difference to the 1990
team? Human nature, that's why. You can't have laughter and camaraderie
in the face of narrow-eyed disapproval. Think of the aunt or teacher or
fellow student who could chill the good humor right out of you. That's
why.
	Rice always said he was a team player but last season, when Joe
Morgan replaced him with a pinch hitter, he had to be restrained from
going after the 58-year-old manager.
	Since last season, Rice has not gone to a game at Fenway Park. Nor
does he drop by to see his teammates; whenever he needs to pick up mail
at the ballpark, he does it in the morning when no players are around.
	Mike Greenwell, who replaced Rice as Boston's left fielder, started a
kangeroo court in spring training ``and we've had a lot of fun with it --
it kept us loose.''
	Greenwell, a Floridian, has ``GATOR'' on his locker's nameplate and a
rubber alligator on his locker shelf.
	He said the ALCS series against the Oakland A's that ``This is the
funnest team I've ever played on. We're a team with more heart than any
team I ever played on.''
	Greenwell joined the Red Sox in 1986, the year they reached the World
Series. He also was with the team in 1988, when they won the AL East.
	This year, he said, ``We just keep believing we're going to win. In
'86 maybe we had more talent and played better baseball, or in '88. Now,
we believe we're going to win and it's a great atmosphere.
	``We've had some guys who have been through it before, we have some
new guys who have been through it before,'' he said, referring to
pitcher Jeff Reardon and outfielder Tom Brunansky, who played for the
1987 World Series champion Minnesota Twins.
	``We've done a lot of fun things as a team -- not only had fun on the
field but off the field too,'' said Greenwell. ``I always said that a
team that had fun together and plays together, and has fun playing
together, wins together.''
	He's right. And Jim Rice will never understand why.

    Well than I definately retract that statement about Rice, thanks.....
    
    Can I substitute Rich Gedman for Rice? :-)(many smilies)
    
    Cap

You know, the thing that bothers me is that we're all sitting here
being kind of holier-than-thou, and putting this issue under a
10-power lens.

We're all over Roger Clemens for losing it.  We're all over Cooney (some
of us) for starting it.

Roger Clemens is not the first player to go "crazy" after being thrown
out.  An almost maniacal George Brett comes to mind in the pine tar
incident.....

Not one reply that I have read in here has even dared come close to
what any one of us might have done in that situation.  Have any of
you ever been so frustrated that you just lost it?  Have any of you
ever wanted to put your opponents lights out?

I've seen the nicest guys you'd ever want to me come within inches
of bashing someones brains in (or at least attempting to), and be restrained,
all the while yelling "Is that all you got, you queer" or "Wait till later
and we'll see how tough you are".  To me it doesn't mean the guy has a
screw loose.  It means he is so thoroughly and intensely into the
competition.....

I don't know, this topic seems to go beyond our usual nitpicking and stuff.

oh well,
fw

    Glenn,
    
    Been kind of hard for me to read the Boston papers this year, since
    I live in Seattle.  I've relied on the RED_SOX note, ESPN, the Seattle
    Papers, the national news mags and papers, word-of-mouth from
    easterners, and a few live showings.   I'll stick by my opinions
    and I'll stick by all my comments, made here and in the Sox note.
    
    And I don't care what the Boston papers may be spewing - what Clemens
    did was WRONG and an embarrassment.  Imagine if Oil Can Boyd or
    Lee Smith or Jim Rice did what Clemens did.   They'd be run out
    of town by the 's' crowd.  
    
    JD

    
    
    re .183
    
    You definitely have a point.
    
    I remember loosing it during a street hockey game. I had a guy
    pinned against the boards threatening all sorts of bodily damage.
    
    All he said back to me was get out of here before I kill you.
    
    Fortunately for me I was pulled away.
    
    Real fortunate...the guy was twice my size, and at least 10 years
    younger. He almost definiely would have killed me.
    
    
    We both had a good laugh afterwards, but competiveness can do some
    strange things to people, especially if they hate to loose.
    
    
    
    Clem's make up is what makes him a successful pitcher. I don't want him 
    to change.
    
    Half the bull that is being written today is because he doesn't get
    along with the media.........big deal......Ted Williams got the same
    bull...
    
    After reading about the mugging he had against the camera man, I
    thought he killed the guy. For cripes sakes he just barely bumped the
    guy as he tried getting by.
    
    
    Lou

    > Been kind of hard for me to read the Boston papers this year, since
    > I live in Seattle.  I've relied on the RED_SOX note, ESPN, the Seattle
    > Papers, the national news mags and papers, word-of-mouth from
    > easterners, and a few live showings.   I'll stick by my opinions
    > and I'll stick by all my comments, made here and in the Sox note.
    
    All sources which confirm that, indeed, Red Sox fans are completely
    unobjective, media-brainwashed, sanctimonious slobs that would be all 
    over the Yanks or Mets if this episode had occurred with those teams.  
    No question about it.  (Hmmmm, I get ESPN too, and have seen and heard 
    more than one opinion that favors Clemens at least in his run-in with 
    Cooney...) 
    
    > And I don't care what the Boston papers may be spewing - what Clemens
    > did was WRONG and an embarrassment.  Imagine if Oil Can Boyd or
    > Lee Smith or Jim Rice did what Clemens did.   They'd be run out
    > of town by the 's' crowd.  
    
    Which is exactly what is happening, so you'll be pleased that they're
    at least consistent.
    
    I read Wally Backman's comments from a wire report and he said that if
    his ace (Dwight Gooden) had been tossed from a postseason game in 1986 
    that particular team would have done a hell of a lot more than throw a
    couple of coolers on the field.  "They'd have had to thrown us all
    out", was his statement.  Ohmygosh, such sanctimony from ex-New Yorker!
    
    glenn
     

    JD, contrary to what you think the Boston papers are writing, they're
    not treating Clemens like a saint, that's for sure!  From what I've
    seen, they're ranking on Roger big-time.  It makes what they did to the
    Oil Can look like a Boy Scout convention!
    
    Hawk

    
    
    
    First of all, I'll say that given the man's accomplishments, no player
    took more sh*t than Jim Rice in Boston. There is no way I'm going to
    believe that he deserved 1/10 of the crap that the media and many
    'fans' dished out to him.
    
    But Boston being Boston, they expect you to kiss their butts, and if
    you don't - look out below. 
    
    Having said that, I'll respond to the note :
    
>	BOSTON (UPI) -- Jim Rice's last season with the Boston Red Sox was
>1989.
>	In 1990, the players hailed team chemistry as a major reason for
> their surprising success.
>	These two facts are not unrelated.
    
    I read this shoddy example of journalism. Please note that it was
    before the Pena outburst. And it's amazing what a 4 game sweep has done
    for team "chemistry".
    
>	First off, you must realize that Jim Rice is not a fun guy. He has no
> smile lines.
    
    From personal experience, I've noted that many people are intimidated
    by a black guy who doesn't smile, for whatever reason. It sounds silly,
    but it is TRUE. And I'm a outgoing person for the most part. But I've
    seen the way people freak when I have a 'game face' on ...
    
>	For 16 years, he was the forbidding presence in the Red Sox locker
> room. Rice sat alone, his back to his locker, staring fiercely at anyone
> who challenged his New York subway stare -- you know the look, the one
> which makes everyone else get off the car even when it's not their stop.
    
    Listen to the adjectives above. In fact - I'll highlight them :
    
>	For 16 years, he was the **forbidding** presence in the Red Sox locker
> room. Rice sat alone, his back to his locker, staring fiercely at anyone
> who challenged his **New York subway stare** -- you know the look, the one
> which makes everyone else get off the car even when it's not their stop.
    
    Geez, the man sounds like an axe killer, funny but I've never heard
    players say that.
    
    And let's say Rice is a loner. So what ? He sure as heck wasn't the
    first player to be decribed as one. And I've never heard anyone else
    described in these terms, have you ?
    
>	A master of **sullen** intimidation, Rice could sometimes be stirred into
> action -- like when he ripped a sports writer's shirt. One person wrote
> that Rice made ``tying his shoes into a hostile act.'' Another said that
> Rice spent the last few months of 1989 serving as a ``traveling
> ambassador of ill will.''
    
    'Sullen' is a popular adjective for a quiet a few black players. BTW,
    I've read quite a few cheap shots on Rice, given that, and the garbage
    above, is it any wonder that he disliked them ?
    
    And you know the tragedy of that ? The good writers would probably
    never get within 50 feet of him ...
    
>	At spring training in 1985, a Toronto sports writer said Rice had
>never received the acclaim he deserved. He approached Rice, whom he had
>never met, and when he was within 20 feet, the outfielder looked at him
>and said, ``get away from me, you ------------.'' The Toronto writer decided
>to pass on his Rice story.
    
    Okay, they could get within 20 feet ... :-)
    
>	On the field, Rice was an outstanding player. Statistically, he is
>borderline Hall of Fame, with 382 home runs, 1,451 RBI and a .298
>batting average. But he was never embraced by Boston's fans, who were as
>indifferent to him as he was to them.
    
    Which probably started with the Lynn-Rice comparisions. Lynn had a
    fantastic rookie year RoY/MVP. Rice had near-identical offensive
    numbers, but the acclaim ? Don't ask ? And Lynn often stayed the
    fair-haired boy (pun intended), even while he was hurt,a nd Rice
    consistently outperformed him.
    
>     Rice was never a clutch player and jokes about his double-play 
>    grounders were cruel: ``Will they retire No.14 for Rice or 6-4-3?''
    
    Never clutch ? Ha. Say what you will about the '79 Sox, but I doubt
    there would have been a playoff game without Rice. And you don't drive
    in 1,400 runs without some of them counting.
    
    As for the DP's, yeah Rice hit a ton of them, especially in 84-85. But
    the Sox were (and ARE) a DP waiting to happen, why pick on Rice ?
    
>	Rice was a black player in a predominantly white city. Was this the
>reason for his tension, his malevolence? ``No,'' answered a veteran
>sports writer. ``He was that way when he arrived.''
    
    Asking a Boston writer about a Boston player - much less Rice - is like
    asking Jeese James if he could counted on to secure a bank.
    
>    	Why should the absence of Jim Rice make such a difference to the 1990
> team? Human nature, that's why. You can't have laughter and camaraderie
> in the face of narrow-eyed disapproval. Think of the aunt or teacher or
> fellow student who could chill the good humor right out of you. That's
> why.
    
    If anybody really believes that the abscence of Rice won games (based
    on attitude), I've got some beachfront property in New Mexico for them.
    
>	Since last season, Rice has not gone to a game at Fenway Park. Nor
>does he drop by to see his teammates; whenever he needs to pick up mail
>at the ballpark, he does it in the morning when no players are around.
    
    So ?
    
>	Mike Greenwell, who replaced Rice as Boston's left fielder, started a
> kangeroo court in spring training ``and we've had a lot of fun with it --
> it kept us loose.''
    
    I wonder how loose he was when Pena layed into him ?
    
>	Greenwell, a Floridian, has ``GATOR'' on his locker's nameplate and a
> rubber alligator on his locker shelf.
    
    How cute.
    
>	He said the ALCS series against the Oakland A's that ``This is the
>funnest team I've ever played on. We're a team with more heart than any
>team I ever played on.''
    
    Quiet possible. Considering how low on talent this team is, they must
    have some heart.
    
>	``We've done a lot of fun things as a team -- not only had fun on the
>field but off the field too,'' said Greenwell. ``I always said that a
>team that had fun together and plays together, and has fun playing
>together, wins together.''
    
    Nice, but I'd rather hear Dave Stewart or McGwire, Randolph, or Gallego
    give me a formula for winning. 
    
    And Greenwell should take notes.
    
    DrM

    
    C'mon, Midnight, Rice had to have been a disruptive influence-- Clemens
    wore his jersey in spring training this year as a show of respect for
    him in his absence, didn't he?
    
    glenn
     

    Glenn,
    
    You've missed the point completely.  My Sanctimony line was directed
    towards fans - you use a quote from a player (Backman) - BIG difference
    between  Sox noters and Wally Backman - don't ya think?   I'm positive
    that if the incident that happened with the Sox in Game 4 had been
    with the Yankees or Mets - that many of the self-proclaimed greatest
    fans in the world would have had a feast.    
    
    After all, those teams are filled with hot dogs, underachievers
    and overrated media darlings.  While our poor Red Sox are a bunch
    of sportsmen, overachievers and underrated, who never get a fair
    shake from the media.  Boo hoo hoo.
    
    My opinion of course.  So Glenn what is the problem with me thinking
    that ROger was rightfully tossed.  If he pulled that crap again,
    I'd hope he was tossed again.  Am I allowed to have an opinion contrary
    to yours?  Can I not interpret things my own way - without following
    the party line?  
    
    Is Roger Clemens bigger than the game of baseball?   Should baseball
    have order, or should the ego haids with the huge salaries control
    the game?   Should Clemens and Canseco and Strawberry be allowed
    to do anything they please, say anything they please, and verbally
    abuse umpires simply because they are stars?   I don't think so.
     You may think differently.
    
    HTH
    
    JD

    Oh yeah, how silly of me Glenn ... :-)

$ @BROKEN_RECORD.COM

    
    > You've missed the point completely.  My Sanctimony line was directed
    > towards fans - you use a quote from a player (Backman) - BIG difference
    > between  Sox noters and Wally Backman - don't ya think?
    
    Do you really think I'm that slow, JD?  Didn't I directly address the
    subject of "sanctimonious fans" in my response?  The Backman line was 
    included later to show that, incredibly, players on other teams don't 
    necessarily have the same opinion of Clemens as you do-- even players 
    on teams we Bostonians associate with "hot dogs, underachievers, and 
    overrated media darlings".
    
    > My opinion of course.  So Glenn what is the problem with me thinking
    > that ROger was rightfully tossed.  If he pulled that crap again,
    > I'd hope he was tossed again.  Am I allowed to have an opinion contrary
    > to yours?  Can I not interpret things my own way - without following
    > the party line?  
    
    Absolutely.  Is it possible for you do so in an objective manner without 
    throwing your unfounded allegations at Red Sox fans *specific to 
    this conference*, based on faulty assumptions about local media coverage 
    which *by your own admission* you haven't even seen or read this year? 
    
    As you are well aware from discussions in both conferences, the
    majority of discussion on the Red Sox and Sox management by the
    participants is very critical in nature.  Almost to a person the A's
    and class players like Dave Stewart have been commended for their
    dominance and presence in the series.  Why do you refuse to acknowledge 
    this fact and continue with this sarcastic "sanctimony" routine?  Until
    you do, your "opinions" will never stand out from the cheap pot-shot
    rhetoric.
    
    glenn
     

    You wanna know what sips?  *If* you watch the drips who do the local
    sportsnews, all you're gonna hear about - probably for a while to
    come - is "and another twist to that Clemens/Cooney/did the A's win
    the series circus, so and so said... blah blah blah."  Same with
    the local daily (the Herald sips, so I won't count it).
    
    Geez, it's (ALCS) over.  The A's won and they deserved it.  Good luck 
    to them.  I wanna see some Bruins hi-lites!  They've shown B's clips 
    once.  ONCE!
    
    I never liked Marty Barrett.  He's a bug.  Someone should step on him.
    
    Not sure what Clemens said to Cooney but it didn't look like 'get
    your bleeping ass back behind the plate,' or whatever he claims he
    said.  Who knows?  Who cares.  I don't anymore.  But the first thing
    well not the first thing, I thought of when he got thrown out was
    "The local media is gonna be all over Cooney, no one wants to upset
    Roger."  I've gotta agree with JD on this - if it was some other team,
    New York, LA, Toledo, wherever, the 6 o'clock news on Wednsday night
    woulda been "He should be fined, what a disgrace, blah blah." 
    
    Clemens needs head help.  The Sox need help - all over.  I like
    the Sox but I don't wanna hear about them until spring training.
    
    Go A's!!!!
    
    JMSVO.
    

    Glenn,
    
    I find a large number of notes in the Sox conference to have
    sancrimony.Just the fact that I was hooted as a non-fan and a person
    coming out of the woodwork was all I needed to read.  
    
    Hey, if you talk the series, the A's played a hell of a series,
    winning by playing good fundamental baseball - and taking advantage
    of every Boston mistake.
    
    However, the discussion wasn't on the series, it was on teh
    Clemens/Cooney incident.   And I rightfully figured that the fans
    who rail against hot dogs like Rickey Henderson and Jose Canseco
    and Darryl Strawberry would defend ROger's action and put all the
    blame on Cooney.  
    
    And what I read in national publications, local newspapers, and
    on TV didn't jibe with most of the stuff spewing from Sox fans.
    I gave unpopular opinions in the Sox file, cause I didn't follow
    the in crowd's line, nor yell 'kill the ump'.  
    
    This discussion shouldn't continue to waste folks time in this
    conference.  If you wish to continue, take it to mail.
    
    JD

To the Tune of 'Lets Call The Whole Thang Off"

You say its outside
I say its inside
You say its too high
I say Its too low
You're squeezing, You're wheezing
Get the damn zone straight!

You talking to me?
I ain't talking to you!
You smoocher!  You Poocher!
YOu talking, Not talking
I was just shaking my haid!

You started it
No you started it!
You gave no warning
I gave fair warning !!
No warning, Fair warning
Just get your butt outta here!

You said Fargin
I said Bargain!
You said Bastid..
I said Blast it!!
Fargin Bargain Bastid Blast It
Lets chuck the Gatorade!

You showed me up
You showed ME UP!
I bust your butt
I'll bust your butt
I'm Roger! I'm Roger! Your Looney, you're LOONEY
Let's throw the year away......


JD

    The Broons have scored the most goals to date.  They also have the
    lowest goals against.  Ooops, wrong topic.  :-)
    
    *Isn't it true*, Bruce Hurst got himself tossed from a playoff game not
    too long ago?  Why wasn't he ripped apart like Clemens?
    
    					Steve

    Doc, I always agreed with Sox fans that Rice was a bum.  He should
    have been traded to Detroit!  :*)
    
    There was an interesting letter in the Globe yesterday, written
    by a New Yawk fan.  He posed an interesting question:  Why are the
    Sox treated the way they are by the Boston media?  It seems that
    he felt that the Boston press, in particular, where much more critical
    than writers not in Boston.
    
    I've always wondered that myself.  I've never been a Sox fan, and
    it's mainly due to the Boston press.  I was a fan of Ted Williams,
    Johnny Pesky, Billy Goodman, Mel Parnell, Dick Radatz, Jim Rice,
    Carlton Fisk, and others.  But, not a fan of that team.  It seems
    that every year there was some rookie in Fla who was gonna be the
    ROTY, and many times he was gone by July.  If he stuck, he just
    wasn't anywhere near what he was projected to be.  Big time pressure
    on a kid, don't you think?  While this crap was going on, who would
    they bang on?  Williams.  Yaz.  Rice.  
    
    One writer, Dave "The Colonel" Egan, made a career out of bashing
    Williams.  When he retired, another one, John Gillooly (sp?), took
    right over.  It didn't seem to matter what Williams did or said,
    it was reported in a negative fashion.  So what if Williams got
    divorced?  What did that have to do with his performance?  So what
    if he didn't hit in certain situations to someone's expectations?
    
    I *always* admired Ted because he had the guts to stand up to those
    clowns that made a career and mucho bucks by riding on him.  Rice
    did the same, and I really, truly wished that he'd have been traded
    to my team, the Tigers.  Boyd?  Well, I think he needed some maturity,
    which he seems to now have.
    
    It does seem that Boston athletes do labor under a microscope, but
    it is sometimes used selectively.  Boggs took a lot of heat for
    his outside activities, and it was for a good stretch of time. 
    But, I can't help feel that if he were black, we'd still be hearing
    about it if he was still on the team.
    
    Perhaps it isn't just Boston, I can't really judge on that.  But
    it is more national when you turn to politics, and entertainment.
   
    Unfortunately, politicians and entertainers aren't looked at for
    role models, at least not nearly as much as athletes are.
    
    Enough rambling.
    
    Lee    

    Roger deserves what he gets.....
    
    Read in the paper this weekend that he was yelling at Bob Welch
    during game #2, saying such class things as:
    
    "Hey Bob, Be a Man, Have a drink and stop sipping on Milk"
    
    Bob Welch is a recovering alcoholic......
    
    Real class Roger, real class act.....
    
    Cap

Cap, you've got a point.

I've heard some things yelled in the heat of battle, usually after a 
guy has just tried to knock your block off, but baseball seems a little
more sedate, so that's not cool....


I heard an interview with Cooney on the radio after my rugby game
Saturday.  He was pretty candid, he did sidestep a couple of issues,
and the interviewer asked some stupid questions....  It didn't really
shed anymore light on the subject though.....

'Saw

    
    > *Isn't it true*, Bruce Hurst got himself tossed from a playoff game not
    > too long ago?  Why wasn't he ripped apart like Clemens?
      
    Hurst was thrown out off the bench, and must have gone real quietly
    because to be honest I don't even remember it (Hurst pitched Games 1 &
    4 in 1988 and was ejected in Game 3, right?).
    
    I don't condone the crap Clemens was pulling off the bench in Games 2 &
    3 (I was at Game 2 and I thought he had been thrown out when the ump
    came over), but I still don't believe that it should be carried into
    the next game by the umpires as an excuse to start a confrontation. 
    Given human nature, I can see why the umpires would do that, but
    umpires really have to put that aside and move on or grudges will carry
    on indefinitely.  A column in yesterday's Globe made some sense and is
    supported by playoff schedules in the NBA and NHL: use alternating crews 
    in the playoffs to prevent the kind of thing that happened with the
    Cardinals and Andujar in 1985 and with Clemens this year.  Given the
    competitive nature of the players, it may be asking the umpires too
    much to control a game the day after a controversy.
    
    Needless to say, the Red Sox should appoint Randy Kutcher or someone
    else as designated bench jockey, or tell Clemens to watch the game from
    the clubhouse.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    Clemens was supposed to have said a lot of things.........
    
    whether he said them or not...who knows......
    
    But ALL players will say and do anything to rattle the opposition,
    its been that way since I started following and playing sports in the
    50's, and I'm sure it goes back alot farther.
    
    If you could get someone on the other team to show he had RABBIT EARS,
    you showed them no mercy.
    
    One other point, the umps keep saying that Clem was trying to show them
    up...........
    
    What the devil do you call some of these actions some umpires do when
    they strike a guy out, at times I swear I felt like hitting the clowns 
    with a bat.
    Some of the umps are real jerks.............
    
    MHO
    
    
    Lou

    re .201
    
    I heard that the other day Cap. Hey, riding the opponent can be fun,
    but that's way, way, way out of line. 
    
    I'd have warned him/tossed him for *that* ....
    
    It's a pity he wasn't in the NL when he said that ... wanna bet he
    would have heard some serious chin music (2 Live Crew style) ????

    re Lou,
    
    Lou, there's some things you just don't say from the bench, insults
    that are racially based for one. And taunting a recovering alcoholic
    ... NFW.
    
    If Clemens said that, he deserves to be bashed for that remark. And his
    teammates ought to get based for not telling him to shut the hell up.

    I have to agree...the comment to Bob Welch goes beyond trying to rattle
    the opposition, that's personal....and that's not hearsay, it's a
    direct quote hear by the As, the Sox, and the umpires. I'll never look
    at Clemens in the same light again....he needs to be knocked on his
    ass.  That's like joking with somebody with lung cancer about having a
    cigarette - what a jerk.

    
    
    I disagree...............
    
    But that's what makes life interesting.
    
    
    If I'm going for a big game, and I can shake the opposition,
    I'd do what it takes. (Verbally).........
    
    I've had it done to me & my team members.......
    
    Look what Eck did to Dewey when he struck him out. Was it hot
    dogging... maybe....did it P!$$ him off....definitely, did he
    get in Dewey's head so bad that it effected him the next time
    up......positively.
    
    
    And if you don't think Oakland was giving it back to the Sox from their 
    dugout, your kidding yourselves.
    
    
    
    
    Lou

    Lou,
    
    I agree that razzing goes on all the time, as does psyching out.
     But even razzing has boundaries - and Clemens, IMO and others,
    crossed them with his comments to Welch.   That kind of crap isn't
    needed - I'm sure that no one would want to have players screaming
    racial slurs from the dugout.  
    
    Just like the Fenway fans who got on Darryl Porter for the same
    thing, or those that got on Jim Esinreich of KC when suffering from
    Taurets, Clemens comments at Welch were not humourous, not in the
    spirit of the game, and not worthy of a supposedly mature person.
    
    JD

    Sheet, REK comes out and calls me an alkie in this here notesfile, and
    nobody jumped on his sheet.  In fack, most of you all agreed!  Hail,
    just because I loves me beer and gots me a bit of a belly........
    
    Hawk

Hawk, you're a lush and everybody knows it.  Why, when you came over
for Giantsmania you brought your own beer IV equipment for gosh sakes.
The IV wasn't so bad, but the Foley catheter so you didn't have to get
up to go was really something.....

If you were on the mound I'd be yellin' at ya all day


8^)

'Saw

    
    I've followed the A's pretty closely the last 7-8 years, even had
    season tickets.  Since LaRussa arrived, they've had a rep for getting
    on other teams.  I haven't heard Welch say anything about it, I'll even
    bet it isn't the 1st time he's heard that stuff.  If Welch comes out
    and says it bothered him (his performance certainly didn't show it)
    then maybe people should be upset, but if he keeps quiet about it and it
    doesn't seem to bother him, kudos to him, and why the heck does it 
    bother anyone else?
    
    
    Bruce

    Pretty impressive set-up there, eh 'Saw?  Nexted thing I'm gonna work
    on is some sort a_automatic ejaculatory system, for enhancement of my
    vocabulary, that is........  :-)
    
    Hawk

>    Pretty impressive set-up there, eh 'Saw?  Nexted thing I'm gonna work
>    on is some sort a_automatic ejaculatory system, for enhancement of my
>    vocabulary, that is........  :-)

Hawk,

Might I suggest a "travel-along-Nurse" to help with the, um, uh, er,
more *medical* aspects of what you're doing (gee, you don't belong
to a HMO do you ;^)) and that might help enhance your vocabulary....

HTH,
'Saw

    Naw Saw, what the hawkster needs is a barium enema delivered thru a
    lead pipe. That'll learn him some new words.

    re .208
    
    Lou, I've never been adverse to so-called hot-doggin, talking trash or
    whatever, but I do it for the fun, and because I can back most of it
    up. 
    
    Nevertheless, there are things I won't say. And if Clemens (or anyone) had
    made that remark to me or a friend, I'd do my level best to kick his
    a**.
    
    Case closed.

    re .211
    
    Rooolwaard 'Saw, but you got that IV stuff from me.
    
    But the Foley catheter is truly inspired  !
    
    I've always been certain about one thing : 
    
    If Hawk ever needs a transfusion, he won't need an IV, he'll need a
    spigot !

    
    Re .216
    
    Your opinion....
    
    Mine is still...no harm no foul.
    
    
    They all do it...and a lot worse...
    
    Lou

>    Rooolwaard 'Saw, but you got that IV stuff from me.

I guess great minds think alike, Doc.  Actually, the thought was
a class project (of sorts) back in the days when I was studying for
my EMT license.  

And as to the Foley, well we had one ER nurse who'd threaten to remove
them with the bulb still inflated if the patients weren't cooperative.
Any guy who would cogitate on that little possibility quieted down right
quick....

'Saw

    Re: A's getting on other teams
    
    Most winning teams are like that!
    
    Mike