Conference 7.286::sports_90

    I have experience in Japan, not Taiwan, but I'm aware of no
    differences, and they are similar, but distinct cultures.  In Japan,
    their is a much greater work ethic than in the US, and it is developed
    at a very young age.  It is likely the Chinese-Taipei team practiced 3
    to 4 hours for every hour the US team practiced.
    
    This continues on even as the player ages, and is considered one reason
    that the best Japanese players don't match up talent-wise with the best
    American players.  The fences are closer, the pitcher don't throw as
    hard, the hitters show signs of the uniform teachings they've had all
    their lives.  In a Sports Illustrated article within the last year or
    two it mentioned how repitition is the method to cure all ailments
    which is practiced in the Japanese professional leagues.
    
    To me that suggests that you don't get the individualized instruction
    if you've got a hitch in your swing, but you do swing the bat 1000
    times a day instead.  Thus, I believe that the Japanese training method
    encourages the reaching of a certain high level of proficiency, but not
    the maximum use of talent which is encouraged in the States.
    
    Considering what has happened in industry, I wouldn't be surprised to
    see the Japanese continue to close the gap.  I would also assume that
    the day may come when they might have better training results than the
    US.  It would then leave the question as to whether the different
    physical traits  of the different cultures plays a big role.  The
    Japanese are a physically smaller people with a much different diet.
    And yet, look at the specialized life of a Sumo wrestler.
    
    Dan

It has come to my attention that little Won Ton Son, a second baseman with the 
team from Taiwan, was unable to play in the World Series due to a case of 
Hong Kong flu.   The local branch of the Little League in Taiwan has stated
that, due to rules and regulations, since Won Ton did not play in the final
game, he will not receive the ceremonial kimono awarded to the members of the
team.   

What can we do about this injustice!

	I don't know why (and I'm not accusing them of cheating) but the 
kids from Tiawan seemed alot bigger then the  American kids.  Then on the
other hand most Asian men seem smaller then most American men.

        I think the kids from Tiawan were a lot better coached in the 
fundementals then the U.S kids.  Maybe part of the reason not many/any make
to MLB is that while they all have extensive coaching there is not a lot of
individual coaching to produce the super-stars that make it to the big leagues.

Mc

    
    A big advantage the Tiawanese have is the size of its Little League
    Charters.  In the US, once you have 11 or more teams, two All-Star
    teams are required.  Once you hit 14 major LL teams, the franchise
    should split (and usually does despite local politics) into two 
    seperate Little Leagues.   
    
    The Tiawanese do not have these specific restrictions.  The team
    is not a National All-Star team but it represents a much
    larger population base than do any US teams.
    	
    

      Just what level of baseball is there in Taiwan beyond LL? Do the kids
    go on to play as teenagers? Little League is a great start for
    youngsters but they really hone their skills when they start to 
    develop strength. In the U.S. they can go on to Babe Ruth ball, 
    American Legion, High School, and college. We have leagues all over
    the country, What does Taiwan have to further develop their talent?
    
    Paul
    

    I saw a tape delay of the game between Taiwan and Europe.  The
    Taiwanese had a 14-0 lead or so with 2 out in the final inning. The 3rd
    baseman for Taiwan let a ball go between his legs into left field. The
    coach for Taiwan came out of the dugout ranting and raving at this kid
    and pulled him out of the game....for the last out.  The fans were
    booing the coach as he did it.
    
    pete

    >I
    >don't see how a training method that perhaps over-emphasizes repetition
    >can be faulted in this instance.                                 
    
    Yes, but in this case, as I've been told, it's repitition at the
    expense of individual instruction.  I never meant to insinuate that
    repetitive practice, in and of itself was bad.  There's a mentality
    that they can "make" professional baseball players.
    
    There's an interesting case of this where the Japanese paid an
    exorbitant amount of money for an 18-year old LA kid who would have
    probably been drafted into the pros and started at the low minor
    leagues like thousands of others.  In Japan, they applied their
    teaching to him.  You can look his name up in the USA today; he's been
    playing in Japan for a few years now.  He's almost always the lowest
    hitting American player in Japan - Ty Van Brelo (I know I butchered the
    last name).
    
    And yes, considering the talent hasn't been refined by little league
    age, I do think that the training method of the East helps them greatly
    with respect to the West for that age group.  It's further on down the
    road where other factors begin to play a role.
    
    Dan

    Are there many more [coaches]???
    
    As a previous note mentioned, in America, the weaning process never
    stops.  After little league, there's Pony League and Town League and
    Babe Ruth League in many towns.  You go to school and play in High
    School where you might play for the freshman team, then the JV team
    before reaching the varsities.  You can take 2 routes after that if
    you're good enough right into the pro draft or to college.  In college
    it's freshman/JV/varsity all over again.  In the minors there are 5 or
    6 teams to graduate through before you make it to the show.  
    
    I don't know the specifics of the Japanese in school, although I assume
    it's there.  I do know it has a single-tiered minor league system.    
    
    >Which was the exact same well-publicized and romanticized mentality
    >that Mutt Mantle used to motivate his young son, Mickey, to Hall Of
    >Fame heights.
    
    You're over-dramatizing and drawing a bad analogy.  Mickey was also big
    and strong, could hit a ball a mile and run like a deer.  Mutt taught
    him to hit lefty.  I don't think either system would have a problem
    developing the next Mickey Mantle.
    
    >"Other factors" such as cultural differences, perhaps ???
     
    If you include the physical differences as cultural, then I am inclined
    to agree.  Otherwise, no.  Methodology of teaching is a much stronger
    difference.  Besides, you'd be surprised at how "Western" today's
    Eastern youth actually is.  And it's getting moreso.
    
    Dan

>    Baseball is
>    the *best* example of a sport where physical characteristics have very
>    little emphasis.  Willie McGee, Freddie Patek, Ozzie Smith, Nellie Fox,
>    Larry Bowa, and on and on ...
    
    I don't know, Bob.  From that list, I'd draw the conclusion that one
    would have to be pretty damned ugly.  =%^O
    
    	--dan'l

 Think Twice now Dan this isn't MorT you're dealing with...

 mike

    >I submit (repeatedly) that the difference is primarily
    >cultural and that physical training methods are not as important in
    >this respect. 
    
    Well, yes, I've noticed that that is your conclusion, but I haven't
    seen any reasoning behind it beyond a quick description of some Eastern
    cultural traits.  What about the Japanese culture do you assume makes
    them  relatively worse baseball players as adults than they were as
    children?  How does that cultural trait play its role in curbing the
    player's growth?
    
    >According to the legend, this was a "made" player.  Period.            
    
    Bull.  Mickey Mantle was born to be a baseball player.  He was bred to
    make him great and stand out from the crowd.  Again, I don't see the
    connection here to your previous argument.  It appears to be a
    non-sequitar which neither supports nor contradicts your thesis.
    
    >We all need to be careful here.  This is thinly disguised racism in
    >supposing that a peoples' physical characteristics are part of their
    >culture. 
    
    It may be stereotyping, but it isn't racist.  Perhaps I am confused by
    what you refer to as culture?  To me it includes what the people eat
    and how they live.  Those things have contributed to a smaller, leaner
    people than we have in America.  I submit that that could be a reason
    for the differences in success in baseball.  Your list of physically
    unimposing successful American players does not address this.
    
    Dan

    THe main reason that Taiwan is so successful in the LL World Series,
    as was noted earlier and perhaps ignored, is population.  They have
    a much larger base from whiuch to choose their All-star team.  If
    Massachusetts could have put together just one team from the entire
    state, that would have been a powerful entry as well.
    
    NAZZ

    It think that's a valid point, Nazz, but there has to be more to it than
    that.  We hear all that time that with the talent pool the U.S. has to
    draw on, they should be a world soccer (or rugby) power.

    Fellas,
    
    Doesn't it really come down to that all-important factor that we talk
    about in just about every other topic in this conference?  Isn't it
    really $$$ that controls the LLWS?  To a certain extent, this is
    culturally related in that past the pre-teen years there is much more
    money (contracts, college scholarships, etc.) for the Americans.
    
    But at the little league level, the money involved goes to the team,
    not the individual; and to a large extent, the Asian cultures stess
    "team play" during a person's whole life.  So I think if you're going to
    discuss cultural differences, you might want to start here.
    
    There is a large percentage of MLB players from Latin America.  Why
    do I not remember ever seeing a Latino team compete for the LLWS
    Championship?  Are they even represented?  Do their countries have
    enough money to sponsor and send a team?
    
    When was the last time a ghetto team competed in the LLWS?  Yet how
    many times do you hear the story of how so-and-so made his way out of
    poverty to play pro sports?
    
    Money, I hate to say, is the driving factor, and at the little league
    level, money drives the team and not the individual.
    
    	--dan'l

    Well, I don't think anyone is "wrong" on this issue.  Money, size of
    talent pool, culture and training method all play a role.  It is my
    informed opinion that training is the biggest reason why the Japanese
    pros fall short of American pros, and I got that from a conversation
    with an American player in Japan and an article in Sports Illustrated
    which echoed many of the same things that I had already heard.
    
    >But I'm just not willing to cave into the theory that
    >the Far East's supposedly unimaginative, repetitive, non-individualized
    >training methods turn out vastly superior 12-year-olds *and*
    >substantially inferior 25-year-olds.   *That* is the non-sequiter here.
    
    Not really.  Considering the talents, maturity and experience are
    widely different between 12s and 25 year olds, a different training
    method can have broadly different relative results.  It's my feeling
    that the most important thing you can teach a 12-year old is proper
    fundamentals, and the Japanese regimentation is perfect for that.
    I would say that the teaching of fundamentals is more important than
    the larger talent pool to choose players from.  The talents of a
    12-year old are difficult to determine.  If you take a look at your
    average LL team, there's probably one great player.  He's the best
    pitcher, when he's not pitching he plays shortstop, and he's probably
    the best hitter as well.  FOr the moment, it's likely he's the most
    physically mature, in terms of size and/or coordination.
    
    Contrast that to the fine tuning that has occured by the time that 12
    year old turns 25.  I think you have misinterpreted me, Bob.  I don't
    advocate a lack of training in repetitive fundamentals.  I think it
    needs to be better supplemented than it currently is in Japan.
    
    >C'mon, Dan, nobody is *born* to be something.
    
    Nope, I disagree.  I maintain he was born to be a baseball player.  If
    he never picked up a ball, bat or glove, he never would have roamed the
    Yankee Stadium center field, and never become my favorite all time
    player.  But had his father not pushed him to succeed, and he did pick
    up the bat on his own, someone would have seen the way his
    extraordinary talents stood out from the crowd.  Yes, you can argue
    that he was made into the player he was born to be, but don't tell me
    it's all because Mutt Mantle sensed how the Japanese would do things in
    the future.
    
    >As you (or someone) pointed out, there
    >are some *immense* people in Japan who participate in sumo wrestling.
    
    I pointed it out.  They are bred to be different.  Prospective Sumo
    wrestlers are taken from their families at a young age and sent to live
    in a camp with others of their kind and teachers.  They are fed a soup
    or gruel which has an incredible amount of calories.  They are taught
    Sumo as if it were religion instead of sport.  The existence of Sumo
    wrestlers is not a valid contradiction to the fact that the Japanese
    are in total a smaller and leaner people than Americans.
    
    >And I submit (yet again) that the sum total of
    >all these cultural differences shows up in the differences between the
    >Far East's and America's professional baseball players.
    
    Can I ask you to be specific?  Yes, they have less land for ball
    fields, but then so do the 12-year old Little League champions. 
    "Culture" is too vast an umbrella for me to feel comfortable with your
    characterizations.  I place more weight on the lack of experience that
    Japan has (post-WWII was when their leagues started) with it, and that
    successive generations have rapidly closed the gap.  Is that considered
    cultural?
    
    >It states that one does not need sheer size to play major league
    >baseball at very high quality levels.   It also shoots down your
    >theory that the Asians are too lean and too light to play ball.
    
    I never had such a theory, so it can't be shot down.  What you need to
    prove to "shoot down [my] theory" is that the US Major leagues could be
    just as good without any large strong players.  I'd advise against such
    an undertaking.
    
    Dan
                                             

    One reason I haven't seen is that the Japanese companies hire for
    life, as you probably know, and if a Japanese player plays baseball,
    first of all, it won't be for life, and secondly, I would imagine that
    they would have fewer opportunities in the business market after
    'wasting' 10 years playing a game instead of climbing the corporate
    ladder.  
    
    (Sorry to open this up again, but I do think this is a part of it as
    well, perhaps as a part of the culture argument.  I would think that the
    superior training of the Japanese offsets these cultural negatives.)
    
    ML

    My guess is that it has to do with their size advantage.  Every year
    I watch the LLWS, it seems there are a bunch of Asian kids towering
    over 'Mericans or Latins and winning.  I don't know whether this size
    advantage stems from cheating (a real possiblity, remember the
    honorable judging in the Seoul Olympics, ah so), larger talent pool,
    or earlier balls-a-dropping pubsescence among Asians, but these kids
    are physically more mature.
    
    And that counts for a lot.  My LL All-Star team was one of two to
    make it to Gary for the the Final Eight in the State Championships
    (the winner wolda gone to the reginals, then the nationals, then the
    international regionals... then the dream of dreams: the LLWS itself).
    
    Anyways, we get go to the field and are promptly fear struck at the
    sight of our opponents for the day: Our biggest player woulda been one
    of the smallest on their team.  I'm serious here, it was such a
    discrepancy that the parents in our camp met and indeed challenged the
    LL officals on their true ages before the game, only to have the LL
    people say that proper identification had been posted for all the kids
    when they started their LL regular season.  Funny thing, though, is
    that the only point of control at their local LL would be, you guessed
    it, their parents.  
    
    These guys were big.  I was the catcher, and after on of the several
    dingers they bombed off our star pitcher (who was among the very best
    12 year old hurlers in Indy, and went on to pitch college) I picked up
    the kid's bat and it was a 36 ouncer! (the biggest in use among our 
    players was a 32 oz).  Our team was highly skilled, and we had good
    picthing, with our starter sporting a 6 pitch repetoire (this was
    before the time they said fast balls only at that age).  Tommy Spaulding,
    our Cy Young, couldn't make it outta the second inning, leaving in 
    tears with us down something like 8-0 with 3 or 4 dingers.  Most of the
    outs were line shot frozen ropes or ripping gounders that were barely
    caught.  The other team was good, mind you, and the LL officials
    explained that after all it *was* a predominately Polish LL after all,
    but they were no more skilled than us.  
    
    They won cuz they were all physically 2-3 years older than us.  In fact,
    the game was almost exactly like a scrimmage game we had played a few
    days earlier in preparation for the trip north against our Youth Baseball
    Association's Pony League.  About the same number of homers, about the
    same counts, about the same type outs.  
    
    They won state only to get mopped up by a team of the same size in the
    regionals.
    
    We weren't sore losers, we were prepared for tough compeition and a 
    possible, even probable, loss at that level.  But losing to a bunch of
    5-8 150 pounders with big feet and 36 oz bats left a bitter taste in
    our young mouths.  
    
    MrT

    
    T,
    
    I think that perhaps your LL team looked at this size thing from the
    wrong perspective, so to speak.  Perhaps if you had all turned around
    and compared butts, that plate stacker of yours surely would have
    intimidated the competition.
    
    Bruce

Can you imagine the T chatter behind the plate as a catcher?

	"Hey, batter, you're obfuscating !"
	"You cain't hit it, and that's a fack!"
	"You swing like Dean Smith!"
	"Sure, you got a .400 batting average, but how many titles?"
	"HawHawHaw!"
	"Hey ump, that was no ball!  Which ACC team paid you off?"	

T does have a point though.  Those kids from Taiwan are pretty
big.  And they're not above a little cheating too.

When Chris Drury, the Trumbull pitcher was leading off first base,
the Taiwan pitcher threw over.  After Chris dove back in, the
first baseman (who weighed over 170), stepped on his left hand twice.
Fortunately, the kid pitches with his right hand.

You can't judge an entire team by one incident, but I think that 
American kids play LL ball because it's fun, it's the American
thing to do, and they enjoy it.  I think the Taiwan approach is
much much different....

JMHO,
'Saw

    CAn you see T blocking the plate with his, uh, Metric Plate Transport ?
    Hell, the only way a guy could score would be to recircle the bases and
    come down the *1st* base line .... :-)
    
    re .28
    
    Saw, I doubt it. Judging from the attitude of a lot of parents, I doubt
    that the US can claim much of edge in the "play for enjoyment"
    department ....

    Regarding the forgoing, it's obvious that a certain bad element in here
    lacks the requisite maturity to create and maintain a_environment in 
    which a noter cain share/care his emotional experiences without fear of
    abuse.
    
    re Doug
    
    Actually, I didn't use that many big words back then.  But, I must admit,
    I did have the caustic tongue in action even at that tender age.  I got
    into a scuffle with an ump in LL once, drove him crazy.  I had my boy 
    painting the corners, ladling in that mean marginal stuff, yet he wasn't
    getting his calls cuz this "ump" was either too dumb or too blind to 
    understand that a ball needn't go down the pipe in order to fit the legal
    definition of a strike.  After a couple innings of this, here's how it
    went:
    
    Ump		(pitch hits corner) "Ball!"
    
    Lil MrT	(while tossing ball back to pitcher) "Don't worry babes,
    		we're only twelve year olds here, this ain't the bigs.  
    		Don't get down on him, he's doing this for $2.25 a_hour!"
    
    Ump		"What did you mean by that?"
    
    Lil MrT	"Nothing, sir.  I was referring to a_inside joke between
    		Gary out there and myself."
    
    Ump		"Yeah, right."  (Another pitch nips the corner.)  "Ball two!"
    
    Lil MrT	"Shake it off Gary, babes.  Ain't nothing.  You think we're
    		gonna get a big league umpire down here doing twelve year
    		olds in the Indianapolis suburbs.  Shake it off, as we grow
    		we'll get better umpiring."
    
    Ump		"Listen, you little twerp, you're not exactly Johnny Bench,
    		you know."
    
    Lil MrT	"Sir, I do believe we have the 1st Amendment with us here 
    		on the field.  Do you mind if I use it?"
                  
    Ump		(Pitch)  "Ball three!"
    
    Lil MrT	(Runner who was previously unjustly walked attemps steal of
    		second, MrT nails him with low accurate peg to base.)
    
    Ump		"Out!"
    
    Lil MrT	"There ya go, Gare.  Quality throw begets a quality call from
                this guy.  C'mon Gary, groove a few fat ones straight down
    		the middle and make it easy on him.  These wimps ain't gonna hit
    		anything anyway.  Groove it in, baby."
    
    (Ump)	(Pitch down the middle of the plate.)  "Ball four!"
    
    Lil MrT	(Still looking at pitcher)  "Whoa, Gary, big-time trouble here.
                Not only does the guy have cataracts but he went to the  Univ.
    		of Kaintuck to boot.  We have a bias problem here, Gary,
    		just make the throws and watch, he has wings and a tail and 
    		crawls on his belly like a reptile."
    
    		(Scuffle ensues, and poor Lil MrT, the vitcim of child
    		abuse-style violence at the hands of a biased umpire, is
    		forced to exit the game prematurely.)
    
    MrT

    MrT, ever think of persuing a career writing children's fantasy books? 
    :-)
    
    Hawk
    

T --

I am abso-f___ing-lutely rollward over that.

Could it also have been that he was a Dean Smif sympathizer too?

'Saw

                     MrT :== The Catcher In The "Wry"
    
    Way to go, T.  I knew I liked you from the very beginning.   I, too,
    was a catcher.  Little League, Babe Ruth, and through high school.  
    
    The only baseball position worth playing, if you ask me.   Constant
    action.  The only one facing out towards the field.  Playing with your
    pitcher's mind.  The works ...
    
    I used to have some great conversations with the umps.  I caught a
    no-hitter in high school and the pitcher was so far out in space that
    he didn't even realize it.  The ump and I both knew it and we talked
    about it the whole way through.   I almost hugged the ump instead of
    the airhead hurler at the final "Steee-rike Three!" call that sealed
    the no-no.
    
    Played with that batter's mind, too.   He was a dead fastball hitter. 
    Started him off with heat and it nicked the corner for strike one.  
    Had him thinking deuce all the way and called for heat again.  Right
    down the middle and he didn't even budge.   I figured he had to be
    thinking heat again for the final strike so I called for the change-up. 
    AirMeat just smiled.  No headshake to acknowledge the selection.  Just
    a smile.   That guy could have swung three times around before the ball
    reached the plate.   He never moved a muscle and the no-hitter was in
    the books.
    
    Rememebr it like it was yesterday.  I'm sure the pitcher is a monk in
    Tibet now or something.
    
    Bob Hunt

I caught a few LL games in my time, even though I'm left handed.

Being a southpaw certainly gives one a different slant on that position...

Mostly I played 1b and loved every minute of it.  My favorite play
was the 3-4-3 or 3-6-3 double play...

'Saw

PS  Never talked with umps as much as I argued with 'em.....

    
    T, I knew you must have played in a LL for the mentally misaligned. 
    Who would have someone steal 2nd on a 3-0 count?  You wouldn't have
    made up the story, would you?
    
    Bruce
    
    

Bruce, I though you knew.

T played LL against one kid who'd go on to star in the major leagues...

The kids name was Steve, but years later people would know him 
as Psycho.  Prior to pulling his pants down on national TV, his
main notoriety was for attempting to steal third and getting cut
down at a time and place where it was probably the stupidest rally
killing move that could have been made...

Anyway, I guess Pyscho was doing it back then.....

'Saw

    re Bruce. 
    
    Actually, the kid ran on a 2 ball count.
    
    

    Since the Matt Sewell note is write-locked, I had to enter this here.
    
    It's Saturday afternoon here in Charlotte.  I was feeling quite down as
    it's a beautiful day and I'm stuck inside working on this damn machine. 
    Pitt is getting crushed by Oklahoma.  The Pirates may be starting their
    slide out of first place.  Things were just pretty glum.
    
    Then I went to my mailbox and in it I found something that brightened
    this day and will continue to bring me happiness.  In my mailbox was a
    thank you card from Matt Sewell.
    
    The emotion I felt at that moment is really tough to put in words. 
    Basically, I just felt great.
    
    I think Frank said a lot about this in the original note.  There are
    so many problems in this world and it's tough to feel like you can do
    something about them.  You pick and choose your causes, and people may
    claim they are trivial, not worthy of your time.  But they are cuases
    you feel strongly about.  And to see it pay off is one thing.  To be
    personally thanked is even greater.
    
    The kid has class.  He has made me feel that I have made a difference
    in this world, no matter how trivial it may be to others.  It was
    important enough for me, and to see this come full circle into success
    brings a feeling to my heart that I have trouble remembering ever
    feeling before now.
    
    Here's to Frank who helped us all help Matt.  And here's to Matt for
    not forgetting to look back at those who tried and did help.
    
    	--dan'l

    dan'l
    
    I got a nice thank you too -- I thought that it was particularly nice
    of Matt to write a personal message, as it seems he is sending one to
    each and every person.
    

    Better watch out folks, or a certain element in here may feel obliged
    to ruin your day......
    

    Hawk, send my mail to Dinz.

    Lee, I don't think the dinz needs more mail.......  :-)
    

    Why is that, Hawk?  Is his quota exceeded?
    
    

    No, the mail currier got a rupture this morning......  :-)
    

Dan'l --

Wow.  That really makes me feel good.  I haven't received one yet, but
then you have to consider that my mailman stil drives a horse and
buggy 8^)

It's frustrating, because everyone in here is all talking about the
new SI stories a day or two before my issue arrives, so all the surprise
is gone ;^)

I'll watch my mailbox...

'Saw

    
    Matt Sewell, 
    
    Send Chainsaw mail.