Conference 7.286::sports_90

Scott,

Can he repeat?  How does he look for the remaining stages?  Isn't there
one where he did badly last year, in effect giving Fignon the 50 second
lead?


go GREG!!!!!

'Saw

    
    
    	It seems as though LeMond has done the impossible once again.
    After getting taken early on by Bauer's breakaway which gave him
    a 10 minute lead on the favorites, LeMond has rode amaxzingly well
    in the Mountains.  He has erased all but 5 seconds of that lead
    and is now currently 2nd with 4 stages to go.  Yesterdays stage
    would of given him the yellow, but he had a flat and lost 90 seconds
    to the leader only to make an amazing comeback to remain only 5
    seconds out.
    
    	From what I have read, the last 4 stages are relatively flat
    with 2 time trials (?)..I know the last stage is time trial.  So,
    the time trial is where LeMond is king, and all he has to do is stay
    close and then take it in the time trial.
    
    			
    								bill..g.
    
    	

    Hawkster,
    
    	The overall leader wears a yellow joisey.
    
    HTH,
    
    Claybone

    
    Scott, as long as we have the note, can you tell us a little about
    the "stages" of the race.  Obviously they don't ride for a couple
    of weeks without a break.  Is there some method of "scoring" to
    determine the winner?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Dickster
    

	Overall standings are determined by total elapsed time of all the
stages.

	Early in the TdF, when Bauer, Pensec and others built the 10 minute
lead LeMond and the others favorites were not worried. They said the real
contenders would take control in the mountain stages. I remember being
skeptical at the time, but they were right.

	I've read recent quotes by LeMond, that he considers himself in control
now. He's not concerned too much with the leader, Chiappucci, but is more
concerned with the two riders behind him. Pedro Delgardo is considered to
be one of the best 'climbers' in the TdF and now that they are out of the 
mountains he is not considered a threat. The 4th place rider is Erik Bruekink
of the Netherlands, but I don't know what his strong point is.

	JimH

    	First, in the base note, I made a mistake.
    
    	There are only three stages left. The tour ends Sunday in
    	Paris.
    
    	The "Tour" format (Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta
    	d'Espana, Tour de Trump) means a multi-stage, multi-day
    	race. There can be more than one stage per day, although
    	this does not occur often.
    
    	There are basically 3 kinds of stages:
    
    		1. Road race, on flat, rolling, or mountainous
    		   terrain.
    
    		2. Time trial; one rider at a time against the
    		   clock.
    
    		3. Team time trial; one entire team at a time
    		   against the clock. The time ends when the
    		   5th rider crosses the finish line.
    
    	The 1990 Tour de France is 21 or 22 stages totalling about
    	2200 miles.
    
    	Each stage has a winner. That person is the first one
    	across the line for the stage.
    
    	The person wearing the yellow jersey is the person whose
    	total time for all the stages is the least. Thus, Claudio
    	Chiapucci is wearing the yellow jersey.
    
    	It's possible for a rider to never win a stage and still
    	win the overall tour. I don't know what will happen with
    	LeMond (or anyone else) the next three days, but all LeMond
    	has to do to win is be ahead of Chiapucci by 5 seconds total
    	on the next three stages.
    
    	The last time trial is Saturday. It is about 28.5 miles, if I
    	remember correctly.
    
    	Sunday's stage is a road race. Little if anything should
    	change on the last day.
    
    	Thus, if LeMond is going to make a move, it will have to
    	be tomorrow or Saturday.
    
    	Scott

    
    	Actually, there can, and is more than one stage per day.  There
    is one day where there are two stages.  One in the morning of about
    100 miles and then the team trial (I think) in the afternoon.  I
    think this stage was real early in the race, like stage 2,3 or 4.
    I haven't seen the double in any of the other days, but I could
    be wrong.  The last stage is Sunday and is the time trial where
    LeMond made up that incredible 50 second deficit in less than 25
    miles.  
    
    	At this point, if your are the Italian leader, you have to be
    a bit scared knowing what LeMond is capable of in past time trials,
    not to mention that incredible feat last year.  So, at this stage
    of the race, LeMond must be a real intimidating figure.
    
    	Any serious breakaways will be dealt with, so I doubt any of
    the leaders will gain or loose much, until the time trials.  Then
    it is simply you riding against the clock, and LeMond will also
    have an advantage of going near the last (reverse order in the time
    trials, meaning the leader goes last) knowing what kind of time
    he needs to win.
    
    							bill..g.
    

Steve,

Thanks for the lowdown.

I recall that someone started a topic on great moments in Sports - the one
where the Hail Mary pass in '71 (?) seemed to take the cake.  I added one
about last year's Tour de Frog as I thought that LeMond's last second finish
was unreal.

I'll never forget those French announcers screaming about Fignon and champagne
nya nya nya, and the whole time LeMond is getting closer and closer.  Then
the dummies start to realize (I can't stand people that declare the winner
before the competition is over) that LeMond's gonna take it, and I swear they
were almost in tears!

May he repeat!

rick ellis

Last year's win by LeMond was one of the greatest efforts I've ever
seen in sports.  The man just went out and defied the odds, and
the popular opinion.

Fignon was a broken man at the finish.


If I was Lemond I'd be right where I'd want to be now.  Second place,
five seconds back.  As someone mentioned previously, the intimidation
factor must be awesome!

Go LeMond!

'Saw

 For the record last year when Lelond pulled off the miracle finish he
 average 34 mph in the final stage over 28 miles I believe. I occasionally
 bike and the only time I hit 34 mph is going downhill with a stiff breeze
 at my back...

 ;^)

mike

    LeMond did more than kill the spirits of last year's party for Fignon,
    I believe he ended Fignon's upper echelon career.  That may be an
    inaccurate statement, because this isn't the first year Fignon has
    dropped out.  Is this guy a head case or what?
    
    I was watching on ESPN a couple of weeks ago, and LeMond was trailing
    at the time by ten minutes.  It was raining pretty good, and the
    commentator said that even though LeMond was 10 minutes behind, he had
    THAT LOOK on his face.  Even when trailing by ten minutes he was still
    the favorite.  
    
    Considering what he's been through, this guy is an amazing athlete.
    
    					Steve

    	RE: .14
    
    	Yes, LeMond averaged 34 MPH, but the TT was around 15 miles,
    	because his time was in the 26+ minutes range.
    
    	He'll certainly ride a little slower (because of the
    	additional 13 miles), but it should be close.
    
    	Scott

   That was a great note, Steve. Thanks.

   I don't even follow cycling, and I found myself reading that and saying
   `Whoa! What happpened then?!'

   Mike JN

    Lemond won the Tour for the 2nd consecutive year (3rd in 5yrs).
    He took a 2-3 minute lead on Saturday to get the yellow jersey
    and kept it on Sunday. 
    
    Andy

Truly a great accomplishment in one of sport's most grueling
competition.

And say, who was this Beth Ruyak who was doing the coverage for ABC.
I thought she was a rather nice addition to Sam, Phil, and Pierre!
(nice legs too...)

'Saw

    	Beth Ruyak basically followed the tour on one of ABC's
    	motorcycles. She had a few short commentaries from the
    	motorcycle during the various stages.
    
    	I mentioned in the CYCLE_RACING notesfile that I wonder
    	what might have been had Greg not been injured in 1987
    	and 1988. He raced the Tour de France fives times:
    
    		1984	3rd
    		1985	2nd	And coulda won; Team said "No"
    		1986	1st
    		1987	Injured
    		1988	Injured
    		1989	1st
    		1990	1st
    
    	During the 1985 race, LeMond was a domestique (worker) for
    	Bernard Hinault, a Frenchman, on the La Vie Claire team.
    	Hinault and LeMond were very close on General Classification,
    	and LeMond wanted to win. The team director told him he
    	had to work for Hinault.
    
    	So, conceivable, LeMond coulda won in 1986, too.
    
    	Truly a great athlete.
    
    	Scott

Well, Scott, Beth can ride on the back of my motorcycle any time.

I thought that Lemond said some really interesting things in his
post race interview yesterday.  I hope he put his french critics
in their place....

'Saw

    Yeah, I was in France when the Hinault-LeMond flap took place,
    and I believe one of the reasons Greg is so wildly popular in
    there is the sympathy he picked from the French when he got 
    screwed outta his first Tour vicotry (he woulda won, he was forced
    to hold back his pace on several occassions when he coulda broke).
     
    >one of the most gruelling sporting events
    
    *One* of?!  2100 miles at an average speed of 24 MPH over big hills
    and even bigger mountains thru driving rain, high winds, and 95 
    degree temperatures... no other event even comes close, IMNSHO.
    
    At this juncture to me, and I ain't no cycling expert, LeMond takes
    his place at the TOP of the Pantheon, over Merckx, Hinault, and
    Fignon.
    
    MrT

Oh yeah, I think Lemond can take his rightful place at the top
of that Pantheon.  None of the others can even think about carrying
his jock....

I was impressed with Chaipucci though.  Gutsy kid....

'Saw

    
    
    	Congrats to LeMond!  What an amazing feat!  And I would agree
    with T in that this is the most grueling sporting event.  What is
    so amazing is that figure of average speed over the entire course
    of 24mph.  I can tell you that 20mph on a bike for an average person
    is really fast and to think that they "averaged" 24mph for the entire
    ride, is pretty amazing.
    
    	The other interesting thing about LeMond is that each of his
    tour victories have been different.  This was probably his best
    win and should put him into that elite class.  
    
    							bill..g.
    

    re: Mr. T and Frankwa
    
    Yeah, but how does it compare to being part of a Crew Team? BTW, LeMond
    was really sweating. Did the doc's check him out?
    
    Also, is it really as grueling as race car driving? Or as boring? I
    didn't see any accident highlights from this bicycle race...must have
    been dull.
    
    JoJ

    Report I heard this morning said that LeMond was the first to win it
    all without having taken any individual stage.  Can someone confirm
    and/or comment on the odds of doing this?
    
    /Ed

Report I heard several times said first to do that since 1966....

Kind of like Eddie Lawson winning the 500cc GP motorcycling championship
last year w/ little or no wins....

'Saw

Or Darrell Waltrip winning NASCAR the year that Bill Elliot won 11
events.

TTom

    
    >>   Also, is it really as grueling as race car driving? Or as boring?
    
    WHAT?!  HELLO?!   Perhaps you are confusing monotony with going
    anaerobic.  
    
    
    Jim
    

    I'm not confusing it with anything....It's already been well
    established in this conference that any sport that requires any kind of
    stamina couldn't possibly be boring to watch:
    
    Soccer,
    Crew Team Races,
    Auto Racing,
    etc....
    
    I was simply asking some general questions about this grueling,
    stamina encrusted sport.
    
    JoJ

    re .30
    
    True, auto racing is the most physically demanding of all sports,
    but your typical race is only two hours long.  They're forced to
    go to more than one driver in the longer races (e.g., IMSA GTP).
    
    re .31
    
    You're right, Jim, there are so many stupid-ass boring void numbskull
    sports out there.  That's why sports with so much intellectually
    stimulating tactical and strategic content, such as your examples
    of cycling and auto racing, are such a relief.
    
    I mean, scientists have discovered that watching a_entire season of
    NBA play including playoffs cain drop a man's IQ by 20 points or more.
    Many neurosurgeons are now prescribing as therapy for the stupefied
    savorers of dumb-bunny entertainment follow, and understand, what's
    going on during F1 races, and pass a written exam after each!
    
    A recent article published in the New England Journal of Medicine
    claims that such therapy has restored 7 IQ points in one NBA-Zombie's
    case.
    
    MrT

    re .31
    
    Yo JoJ,
             I never heard anybody say that these sports were exciting to
    watch for the general public.  I think rowing is probably one of the
    most boring sports to watch, especially if you aren't familiar with the
    sport.  The only way it's exciting is when you're camped on the river's
    bank with an abundance of kegs/cases of brews on a sunny day (Head of
    the Charles). 
    
             
    Tom

    re: 33
    
    Tom
    
    You hit the nail on the head!  In all my past experiences, the sports
    I have thought boring were always the ones I knew *nothing* about.
    I once hated tennis, but since I play it now, I love to watch it on
    t.v.  I also once hated hockey which is truly amazing considering it
    is my favorite, but it all goes back to watching and not understanding.
    I have learned to be more open-minded before I say something is boring
    now.
    
    Wheel

    re: Wheel
    
    OPEN MINDED???? Who in the world would want to be open minded? Gawd,
    you are starting to sound like Frank "I_like_everything_under_the_sun"
    Way.
    
    On a serious note, did anyone see the Point After piece in SI a couple
    of weeks back...the author openly admitted that he hated soccer and how
    relieved he was to state that openly.
    
    JoJ

    JoJ,
    
    I'm not *that* openminded!  I still don't like you! 8^) ha ha, justa
    kidding.
    
    I don't like everything under the sun either!  
    
    Wheel

LeMond is the first winner not to win a stage since 1966.

However, that doesn't tell the whole story. After the first day, when a group
of 4 pulled out 10 minutes on the rest of the field, his goal was to pull them
back in. Consequently, on the mountain stages, LeMond HAD to push to take time
off Chiapucci - about 7 minutes over 3 stages.

Normally a team leader can be cossetted by his team, break to the front at the
end - and hopefully take the stage victory. LeMond didn't have this luxury - he
had to burn Chiapucci off and take time away. Whilst he was doing this, other
excellent riders could relax on his shoulder - and when he had burnt himself
out and the finish line was in sight - easily go past him for the stage
victory. Both Breukink and Indurain did this - leaving LeMond in second
position on the day. 
                                                                               
I don't think that LeMond can be compared with Mercx yet - that guy monopolised
the sport over a period of 6-7 years. He's close to Hinault - but he did have 5
victories. He's definitely well ahead of Fignon now ('83 & '84).

As for interest. Well, I'm no cycle fan, but this race was totally absorbing.
Firstly there's the makeup of the teams - the leader and the supporting cast
(anything from 8-15 riders). The riders are chosen for their ability on the
flat, to climb mountains, sprint to the finish, and time trial. All of these
need different physical abilities; and no-one is the best at everything.
The riders are supposed to support the leader, and help get the team points. A
rider who worked hard yesterday, will probably cruise at the back today, whilst
one of his colleagues does the work for the team leader. So, just because
you're 135 th overall doesn't mean that you're a "journey-man" - its just that
your a specialist, and are only expected to figure on 3-4 days worth of racing.

If there is a breakaway, and your team leader is in it, then a couple of your
riders will try and go with the leader, whilst the rest will stay and try and
break up the rhythm of the peloton (main pack) - so that they don't catch up
later. This is particularly true if you've lost your team leader (this happened
to a lot of teams this year), and you've got a colleague in the front pack
who's going for team points.

And when you are breaking away, you go line astern. The leader does a couple of
hundred yards, and then backpedals until he re-joins the breakaway at the back
(gives him a rest). The next guy does the same, and so on... Watching a group
like this at work is great - seeing if they're pulling away, or being hauled in
by the bunch.

You have to judge when to break away - too early, and you'll tire yourself and
ultimately be caught. Too late, and the sprint specialists (like the East
German star, Ludwig), will gobble you up....

Cheers

Steve

       I heard on the radio this morning that Lamond gave his $300,000+
    prize money to his teammates.
                                         Denny

    LeMond is paid 5.5 million or so per year by his team, and I guess it's
    a bicycling tradition to give ones winnings from a race back to the
    team.  Don't know for sure, though.
    
    John

JoJ --

There are some things that I don't like....I mean, let's be fair.

While I am an individual of eclectic tastes, preferring to experience
all of life's flavors, there are some things I think the world would
be better off without....


Existentialist literature.  About as useless as teats on a bull.
If I want to depress myself, I'll watch a replay of Game 6, 1986
World Series (see, gotta work that sports in here).

Caviar.  I can get the same basic sensation by cramming two fingers
down my throat with one hand, and cramming dead minnows up my nose
with my other.

College and Pro Basketball.  Only interesting in the last two minutes
of the game.

Extremist individuals who feel the world MUST see things their way, 
and impose that will by censoring artwork and music, dictating what
women can or can't do with their bodies, and being just as corrupt
as the next guy in the pursuit of their ideals.

Oh yeah, I'm not really big on French and Italian opera either, and
while I enjoy a little Gilbert and Sullivan from time to time, it
gets pretty trite after a while.


So, JoJ, there you have it....

BTW, Lemond is totally unappreciated in the US, and most people would
have no concept of what the man has accomplished.  Arguably the
best cyclist in the world today.....

'Saw

    re $$$, LeMond makes $1.8 million/yr from Z, and he won two prizes for
    le Tour, one of $360K, the other of $200K.  He gave away the $360K to
    his 'mates and plans to pocket the $200K.  Based on the size of his house
    in Wayzata (about a quarter mile from Prince's), I'd say Greg plans to
    hang onto all of his $1.8 million.
    
    As for not winning a stage, this whole flap is absurd.  First, on the
    big climb in the Pyrenees where he took 7 back from Claudio, he was
    front and center of his pack when the stage finish came in sight and 
    waved his bros on by as reward, so that they could have a little sprint
    among themselves for a_etape victoire.  
    
    Second, the idea of le Tour is to win le Tour, not to win un etape. That
    being so, what he hail diff does it make whether or not a_etape is won?
    
    This pseudo issue would be like the motor press accosting Alain Prost 
    after a F1 victory badgering him on why the hail didn't he win the pole
    and how is it he didn't post a single fastest lap. 
    
    re: Iditarod
    
    Does the sun shine on this event too?  How cain you compare a cyclist 
    who averages 24 MPH through mountains valleys and dales through wind
    heat and storm UNDER HIS OWN POWER to somebody who stands there steering 
    a bunch a dogs (and I used to own a Malamute, Frank).  True, the enduro 
    part of sled team racing is whether you cain get through without freezing 
    your scrotal sac off; which is why the Iditarod is won by a WOMAN every 
    year!  Haa.
    
    And your triathlon comparison was rotten!  Here you got a bunch a unskilled
    masochists who swim 2 miles (big deal), then take a short bicycle ride,
    then run a marathon (a "sport" growing in popularity with sixty year old 
    men) - all of it against third rate competition for each event!, which
    means the pace is slow!
    
    I think for tri"athletes" to be compared to les cyclistes du Tour, they
    would have to start self-flagellating like one a them Iran guys all the
    way thru in order to add a_element of geeky entertainment to a_otherwise
    regrettable endeavor.  Except in the swimming leg, of course.
    
    MrT

    MrT,
    
    The reason Butcher claims to have an edge on winning the Iditarod is
    simply the fact that she raises her own dogs.
    
    Ha!  Like my shirt that my grandmother sent me from Anchorage:
    
    	Alaska: Where men are men And
    		Women win the Iditarod!!!!!
    
    
    Wheel

    
    Gee, I can't remember the last time I laughed so much at a T-note,
    but the part about the dog race was a doozy.
    
    You're in rare form today, T.
    
    
    Dickster
    

>    
>    This pseudo issue would be like the motor press accosting Alain Prost 
>    after a F1 victory badgering him on why the hail didn't he win the pole
>    and how is it he didn't post a single fastest lap. 

Agreed....
    
>    part of sled team racing is whether you cain get through without freezing 
>    your scrotal sac off; which is why the Iditarod is won by a WOMAN every 
>    year!  Haa.

From what I've heard, driving the sled isn't just steering the dogs.  It 
is a grueling event.  I would laud Butcher's efforts, except she really
seems to have an attitude, from the several interviews I've seen.

    
>    And your triathlon comparison was rotten!  Here you got a bunch a unskilled
>    masochists who swim 2 miles (big deal), then take a short bicycle ride,
>    then run a marathon (a "sport" growing in popularity with sixty year old 
>    men) - all of it against third rate competition for each event!, which
>    means the pace is slow!
    
Again, it's still a grueling event.  Swimming and running use mutally
exclusive muscle groups, or so I've read.  I know that it's rare to
be superb in both sports.  The bike race part is 112 miles, which
is more than what my bike racing buddies used to call a century, so
I know it's not peanuts.  Running 26.2 miles after all that is no picnic. 


>   I think for tri"athletes" to be compared to les cyclistes du Tour, they
>    would have to start self-flagellating like one a them Iran guys all the
>    way thru in order to add a_element of geeky entertainment to a_otherwise
>    regrettable endeavor.  Except in the swimming leg, of course.
    
T, this had me rolling.  Shiite Triathletes...well, at least they come
with their own towel 8^)


I think, again, bottom line, we're falling into the sports trap of 
comparing apples and oranges.  All three are grueling events, each
for it's own reason, just as climbing Everest or K2 is a grueling
event for a different set of reasons, and hiking the entire AT is
yet again grueling for its own reasons.

'Saw 

    	Just for the record, the Tour de France starts with
    	22 9-man teams. That's 198 riders.
    
    	And, as T mentioned, LeMond's contract with Z is for
    	~5.5 Million over 3 years.
    
    	Scott 

    T, great note!
    
    Wheel, I gots one of dem Iditarod t-shirts, too.  Gets more than
    one chuckle.
    
    Mark.
    
    

    re .44
    
    Yeah, 'Saw, but the point is a triathlon lasts what, maybe six hours.
    Tour riders go for 21 days, 2100 miles, for a total of maybe 90 hours.
    
    MrT

    
    re: .46
    
    Mark, I thought you drove a Volvo... was that your Saab, or did
    you borrow it from someone?
    
    ice

    < Note 298.48 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "the dream is always the same..." >


    
>    re: .46
>    
>    Mark, I thought you drove a Volvo... was that your Saab, or did
>    you borrow it from someone?

    IceWoman, didn't they teach you how to read in college.  It says
    "Nissan" on the back of my car.  Which word didn't you understand?
    
    Mark.

    A Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo?  Or maybe one a them fancy new Maximas?
    Me, I lust for one a them mid-engined poor man 348s, the Toyota MR2.
    
    MrT

    
    re: MrT... it was a Stanza!  He had fuzzy dice hanging from the
    rear view mirror!

    Maxima.
    
    IceWoman drives a beat-up Honda Quaalude.
    
    Mark.

    >it was a Stanza!
    
    Groaner, you cain be brutal sometimes.
    
    Maxima + Prelude = Yuppus Maximus ??
    
    And *I* thought you were hip when you turned me on to all those 
    tough punkR bands :^(
    
    MrT

    could this be the making of a new note?  The vehicles of SPORTS!

    Did anyone catch the fact that one my distant relatives, Jean-Claude
    Colotti was racing in Le Tour? In the 18th stage from Pau to Bourdeaux
    he finished 14th, 19 seconds behind the winner and tied with Greg
    LeMond. My grandmother told me that about 35 years ago some of my
    grandfathers family moved from Rome to Southern France, hence the
    funny-hyphenated first name. 
    
    				Rich
    

    	I read everything and watch everything I can find about
    	cycling. Although not a Greg LeMond, Jean-Claude Colotti
    	is a very fine racer. I've heard his name more than a
    	few times.
    
    	Scott