Conference 7.286::sports_90

    Just as I feared, no Pirates in the starting outfield even after every
    sports announcer I heard call a Pittsburgh game this year stated
    they have the best starting outfield.  Finishing ahead of Bonilla, 
    VanSlyke and Bonds were the three starters, Tony Fatso Gwynn, and
    Darryl Whiiiiiiiner Strawberry.  Eric Davis finished ahead of Bonds
    even after not playing for about 1/4 of the first half.
    
    No other Pittsburgh players even finished in the top five in each
    category.  That says one of two things:
    
    	- fans are really stupid
    	- Pittsburgh has a team of very good team-players and no real
    	  stars
    
    I'd say it's the latter except that Mike LaValliere is one of the best
    catchers in the NL and didn't even get enough votes to make the
    listings.
    
    Neal Heaton will probably start the All-Star game though because Viola
    is scheduled to pitch Sunday, according to ESPN's Chris Berman.
    

    Dan'l,
    
    Say what wyuou want about Daryl being a whiner, but he's put up
    some damn nice numbers - 20 dingers, hovering around .300 - it's
    not like he's not deserving of a berth - I have no qualms about
    him not starting.  The starters are all pretty damn deserving. 
    Gwynn is hitting .321 - so it's not like he's merely banking in
    on past performance.  Bonilla is hitting .273 - big deal.  Van Slyke
    is hurt now, so it's a moot point, but Bonds was just as derserving
    as the other guys.  Eric Davis getting more than Bonds is simply
    a case of brain dead fans voting on name recognition.  And going
    by the SI article, ol' Barry isn't exactly endearing himself to
    folks.
    
    If you want to get made, look at the AL farce voting - perhaps they
    need "Designated Voters", because the fans blew it big time.  Cal
    Ripkin over Guillen?  McGwire?  Boggs????????????  Steve Sax???
    
    C'mon.
    
    Dan'l - back to the NL outfield - lots of great choices - Dykstra
    deserves it.  Dawson has 18 dingers, 54 Ribbys and .322, Mitchell
    has 19 dingers, 45 ribby's and .309 average.  Granted that others
    behind Kevin may be more deserving, but it's not a travesty.  I
    was pissed last year when Strawberry was voted in, cause he doesn't
    deserve it - this year he's more deserving, and doesn't get voted
    in.   It's also tougher for Pittt with 3 good outfielders than most
    teams that have only one.  Non-hometown fans are less likely to
    pick 3 Pirates to start in the outfield than Buc fans would....
    
    In the NL, the only realy boner was Ozzie Smith over Larkin....
    
    JD

    strawberry is the straw that stirs the mets drinks.. if he stays
    
    hot, theres no stopping the mets.. and no i am not a mets  fan
    
    /don, i KNOW youre thinking that..
                                             
    dinz
    

    Dykstra deserved it.
    
    Dawson's in on his rep.  (He's one of my faves anyway.)
    
    Mitchell's in because of a barehanded catch he made a year ago.
    
    None of the Pirate outfield was anymore deserving than the others, but
    I was just sure one of them would make it, especially Bonds and he
    fihished behind the others.  My reply was in response to my
    disappointment, that's all.  
    
    My personal starting outfield would have been Dykstra, Bonds, and maybe
    Strawberry who has been hitting well LATELY.
    
    VanSlyke is not hurt...is he?
    
    Yeah, I didn't even feel like expressing my disbelief about the AL
    because I didn't want to write a 300-line note.  Nuf said?
    
    	--dan'l
    

    Dan'l,
    
    I might have gotten Van Slyke mixed up with Von hayes....Mitchell
    made it cuz he was MVP last year - always good for name recognition.
    I really feel that any of 6 NL outfielders could start, and there'd
    be no problem.  
    
    The Bucs have the misfortune of having their players having good
    years competing against players having better or equal years, but
    with more name recognition.  Like Lind - he's having a nice year
    at second, but next to Sandberg, no one is close.  Then you add
    in Alomar and the rest...Same for Bell.
    
    (I think Larkin should be the starter at SS with Bell the backup
    and Ozzie at home watching....)
    
    JD

    re .6:
    
    I'd pick Dunston over Jay Bell at NL SS (and Larkin over the whole lot
    of them).
    
    
    re the first few replies:
    
    It's R-i-p-k-E-n.  Agree 100% that Guillen got screwed (and I'm an O's
    fan).        ^
    
    
    py
                       

    Re:.5
    
    Mitchell is not in because he made a barehanded catch!!!!!!!
    
    The man has been hurt the whole year. First, he played through the
    wrist problem. Second, he now is suffering from a bad hamstring. People
    don't realize what a good hitter Kevin is. His batting average seldom
    drops below .300, and still he puts up very good power numbers. As an
    outfielder he's not as bad as people think. He has a very good arm and
    catches everything he SHOULD catch which is more than I can say about
    Strawberry and Bonilla.
    
    nuff said,
    
    G.

    Isn't Dawson batting around .320 with a bunch of HR's and RBI's?
    Don't have the stats in front of me, but it seems like he earned
    his place too.

    Walt,  Off the top of my head, Dawson has about 18 dingers, 50+
    ribbys, and is batting in the .310-.325 range.  He is deserving.
    
    Canseco has the worst batting average of the 6 starting outfielders
    - he's hitting around .300.
    
    Worst starting batting average is SURPRISE!  Mark McGwire, who's
    hitting a mighty .232 - yeah he has some dingers and ribby's, but
    he's no all-star...
    
    JD

    
    	The greatest injustice in All Star voting this year and last year
    begins and ends with the idiotic casual fans who continually vote Ozzie
    Smith over the best young shortstop in major league baseball, Barry
    Larkin.  Doesn't anyone realize Ozzie Smith couldn't bat .300 to save 
    his life and he is maybe the third best fielding SS in the National
    League. 
    
        Larkin was around .360 last year at the break, this year he is
    around .330. He is the reason the Reds are where there at now. No one
    is more deserving and yet has less of a chance of starting an All Star
    game for the next 3-4 years, until Ozzie retires, than Larkin. 

Starters
--------
Mark McGwire, Oakland 1b		Will Clark, San Fransisco 1b
Steve Sax, New York 2b			Ryne Sandberg, Chicago 2b
Cal Ripken, Jr., Baltimore ss		Ozzie Smith, St.Louis ss
Wade Boggs, Boston 3b			Chris Sabo, Cincinnati 3b
Sandy Alomar, Jr., Cleveland c		Mike Scioscia, Los Angeles c
Jose Canseco, Oakland of		Andre Dawson, Chicago of
Rickey Henderson, Oakland of		Kevin Mitchell, San Fransisco of
Ken Griffey, Jr., Seattle of		Len Dykstra, Philadelphia of

Reserves
--------
Cecil Fielder, Detroit 1b		Roberto Alomar, San Diego 2b
Julio Franco, Texas 2b			Shawon Dunston, Chicago ss
Ozzie Guillen, Chicago ss		Barry Larkin, Cincinnati ss
Alan Trammell, Detroit ss		Tim Wallach, Montreal 3b
Kelly Gruber, Toronto 3b		Matt Williams, San Fransisco 3b
Lance Parrish, California c		Greg Olson, Atlanta c
George Bell, Toronto of			Barry Bonds, Pittsburgh of
Ellis Burks, Boston of			Bobby Bonilla, Pittsburgh of
Kirby Puckett, Minnesota of		Tony Gwynn, San Diego of
Dave Parker, Milwaukee dh		Darryl Strawberry, New York of

Pitchers
--------
Roger Clemens, Boston p			Jack Armstrong, Cincinnati p
Dennis Eckersley, Oakland p		Jeff Brantley, San Fransisco p
Chuck Finley, California p		Rob Dibble, Cincinnati p
Randy Johnson, Seattle p		John Franco, New York p
Doug Jones, Cleveland p			Neal Heaton, Pittsburgh p
Gregg Olson, Baltimore p		Dennis Martinez, Montreal p
Bret Saberhagen, Kansas City p		Ramon Martinez, Los Angeles p
Dave Stieb, Toronto p			Randy Myers, Cincinnati p
Bobby Thigpen, Chicago p		Dave Smith, Houston p
Bob Welch, Oakland p			Frank Viola, New York p

	I think Parrish is a great choice; he's batting over .280 with
	double digit homers, around 40 rbi's.  I would have picked him
	to start actually.

	Who should be upset ?  Here's some of my suggestions:

	Glenn Davis, Houston 1b (I know he's injured)
	Doug Drabek, Pittsburgh p
	Ron Gant, Atlanta of
	Willie McGee, St.Louis of
	Don Slaught, Pittsburgh c

	Mike Boddicker, Boston p
	Ivan Calderone, Chicago of
	Mike Heath, Detroit c-of
	Edgar Martinez, Seattle 3b
	Rafael Palmeiro, Texas 1b
	Kevin Seitzer, Kansas City 3b

From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Subject: Baltimore's Olson, Atlanta's Olson make All-Star teams
 
	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Baltimore reliever Gregg Olson and Atlanta catcher
Greg Olson were among 16 first-time All-Stars named to the American and
National League teams Thursday when the rosters were completed.
	Olson of the Orioles, AL Rookie of the Year last season, was among
five AL first-timers selected Thursday for Tuesday night's All-Star Game
at Wrigley Field in Chicago. He is 4-3 with 15 saves and a 1.31 ERA.
	Atlanta's Olson was his team's only All-Star and the only rookie
who will play in the game. He made the roster by hitting .295 with six
homers and 25 RBI.
	The 28-player rosters were completed by NL Manager Roger Craig of
San Francisco, AL Manager Tony La Russa of Oakland and the league
presidents.
	Shortstop Barry Larkin and pitchers Jack Armstrong, Randy Myers and
Rob Dibble were named to the NL team from West Division-leading
Cincinnati. Along with elected starting third baseman Chris Sabo, they
give the Reds an NL-high five All-Stars. The defending World Champion
Oakland Athletics have five AL All-Stars.
	Starter Armstrong and relievers Myers and Dibble were among seven
first-time All-Stars named to the NL's 10-man pitching staff. The rest
of the NL pitchers are starters New York's Frank Viola, Pittsburgh's
Neal Heaton, Ramon Martinez of Los Angeles and Dennis Martinez of
Montreal and relievers John Franco of the Mets, Jeff Brantley of San
Francisco and Dave Smith of Houston.
	Myers, Viola, Heaton and Franco are left-handers, and all the NL
pitchers except Franco, Viola and Smith are first-time All-Stars.
	The NL reserves are outfielders Bobby Bonilla and Barry Bonds of
Pittsburgh, Darryl Strawberry of New York and Tony Gwynn of San Diego;
catchers Mike Scioscia of Los Angeles and Olson; San Diego second
baseman Roberto Alomar; shortstops Larkin and Shawon Dunston of Chicago;
and third basemen Tim Wallach of Montreal and San Francisco's Matt
Williams.
	Either Olson or Scioscia will start because voted starter Benito
Santiago of the Padres is on the disabled list.
	Of the NL reserves, Strawberry has the most All-Star experience. He
will be playing in his seventh game. Olson, Alomar, Williams and Bonds
are first-time All-Stars. Counting starting outfielder Len Dykstra of
Philadelphia, the NL will have 12 players making their All-Star debuts.
	Starting pitcher Dave Stieb, outfielder George Bell and third
baseman Kelly Gruber were named to the AL team from Toronto. A's starter
Bob Welch and reliever Dennis Eckersley were also selected to the 10-man
AL staff.
	Completing the AL staff were starters Roger Clemens of Boston,
Chuck Finley of California, Randy Johnson of Seattle and Kansas City's
Bret Saberhagen and relievers Olson, Doug Jones of Cleveland and Bobby
Thigpen of Chicago. Olson, Johnson and Thigpen are the only first-time
All-Stars on the staff, and Stieb was chosen for the seventh time.
	The AL reserves are eight-time All-Star catcher Lance Parrish of
California; Detroit first baseman Cecil Fielder, who leads the majors
with 27 homers; Texas second baseman Julio Franco; shortstops Ozzie
Guillen of Chicago and Alan Trammell of Detroit; third baseman Gruber
and and outfielders Bell, Kirby Puckett of Minnesota, Ellis Burks of
Boston and Dave Parker of Milwaukee.
	Fielder and Burks were the only first-time All-Stars added as AL
reserves.
	The starting lineups, selected by fan voting, were announced
Wednesday. The AL starters are outfielders Jose Canseco and Rickey
Henderson of Oakland and Ken Griffey of Seattle, catcher Sandy Alomar of
Cleveland, Oakland first baseman Mark McGwire, second baseman Steve Sax
of New York, Baltimore shortstop Cal Ripken and Boston third baseman
Wade Boggs.
	The NL starters were outfielders Dykstra, Kevin Mitchell of San
Francisco and Andre Dawson of Chicago, first baseman Will Clark of San
Francisco, Chicago second baseman Ryne Sandberg, St. Louis shortstop
Ozzie Smith, third baseman  Sabo and catcher Santiago.

	CHICAGO (UPI) -- Here's a quiz to test your knowledge of All-Star
Game history:
	1) The pitcher who holds the record for most bases on balls in
combined All-Star appearances? Think underwear. 
Former Oriole Jim Palmer, seven.
	2) The youngest player to participate in an All-Star Game?
Think medicine.
New York Mets pitcher Dwight ``Doc'' Gooden, who was 19 years, 7 months
and 24 days old at the 1984 classic.
	3) How many players have hit grand slams in All-Star competition?
Only one. Fred Lynn in 1983.
	4) Say, hey, what player holds the record for most games, most
total at-bats, most total runs, most total hits, most total triples and
most total stolen bases in All-Star competition? 
Why, Willie Mays of course: 24 games, 75 at-bats, 20 runs, 23 hits, 3 triples
and 6 stolen bases.
	5) Only one player has ever hit a pair of triples in an All-Star
Game. Who is he? Rod Carew in 1978.
	6) In 1989, Bo Jackson became the fifth player in All-Star history
to hit a leadoff homer. The next batter also homered to mark the first
time in All-Star history the first two batters for one of the teams
homered? Who was that second batter? Boston's Wade Boggs.
	7) Which manager won the most All-Star games? Walter Alston, seven.
	8) Which league holds the record for most consecutive All-Star Game
losses? American League, 11, 1972-82.
	9) What reliever holds the record for most games finished?
Think wildlife. Rich ``Goose'' Gossage, six.
	10) What pitcher holds the record for most strikeouts in All-Star
competition? Double-D. Don Drysdale, 19.
	11) Who was the last National League player to hit a home run in an
All-Star Game? The Braves' Dale Murphy, 1984.
	12) Who holds the record for most games umpired?
If you know this one, get another hobby. Al Barlick, seven.
	13) What was the shortest All-Star Game in terms of innings?
The 1952 classic at Shibe Park in Philadelphia, won 3-2 by the National
League in five innings because of rain.
	14) What catcher played the most All-Star games because it ain't
over till it's over? Yogi Berra, 14.
	15) What player struck out more than any other? 
Mickey Mantle, 17 times in 16 games.
	16) Who played the most fielding positions in All-Star competition?
Peter Edward Rose, second base, left field, right field, third base,
first base.
	17) The last player to hit two home runs in a game? 
Gary Carter, 1981.
	18) What game featured no singles by the American League? 
The 1968 All-Star Game, won by the National League 1-0.
	19) Who is the only pitcher with three All-Star victories? 
Lefty Gomez.
	20) How many All-Star games has Wrigley Field played host to at
night? Be serious.

    Saberhagen over Boddicker or Nolan Ryan????
    
    Yeah, right.
    
    Mark.
    
    

    
    Someone had to get picked from K.C., and there wasn't much to choose
    from...
    
    Welch hurt his hip yesterday, and he'll probably be replaced.  It
    will probably be Ryan or Boddicker.  Ryan is the sentimental choice...
    
    Brian

>    Someone had to get picked from K.C., and there wasn't much to choose
>    from...

How about Bo Jackson instead of Ellis Burks and Boddicker instead of
Saberhagen?   I don't think there'd be as much complaining.  Bo's been
on fire lately after a slow start and he's the player everybody would 
want to see.    How about a Bo versus Dibble matchup late in the game?

    to the list of players who should be upset add Schooler of the
    Mariners,who has 21 saves in 24 opportunities,.,
    
    Brantley doess not deserve a berth on the all-star team.  What a
    sh*t choice by Craig.   Edgar Martinez and Kelly Grubeer would have
    been my AL 3rd basemen, but Wade should thannk the blind fans, who
    voted him in, securing his $100,000 bonus.....
    
    JD

    yea, good ole wade.. going for the stats  boggs
    

Boggs doe NOT get an All-star bonus (neither does Clemens).  With there
large contracts the owners felt they should be All-stars and thus no
bonus.  The agents agreed.  Although I feel Boggs shouldn't have been
selected, he still is hitting .305 (after being around .270 for a while).

Boddicker deserved it as much as any pitcher (including Clemens).
Burks and Boggs make the team while Boddicker and Pena are the reason
the Sox are in first.

I agree with the noter whom suggested Bo and Boddicker instead of
Burks and Saberhagen (5-7, 2.98 ERA)


                                                            Alan

    Burks has all-star numbers: 302 avg. 10 hrs. 20 2b 44 rbis and only 2
    errors playing center field. What has Bo done?  He's be hot for the
    last ten days, but overall he hasn't had a good year, he's hitting
    about 270 and he still butchers balls in the left field.

    Alan, 
    
    I read in a paper, that Boggs got $100,000 extra for getting voted
    in - perhaps it has to do with leading 3rd basemen in voting.  I
    only reported what I read.
    
    JD

>                -< Bo hasn't played all star ball...Burks has >-

                      G  AB   R   H  TB  D  T HR RBI  BB  SO  SB CS  E
Ellis Burks          77 298  47  90 150 20  5 10  44  25  35   8  6  2
Bo Jackson           72 277  51  77 139 12  1 16  48  31  96  10  6  7

Bo seems to have Ellis beat in runs, hr, rbi, and steals.... it's a much
closer comparison than Saberhagen/Boddicker which is what I was referring
to... combine that with Bo's fan appeal and his ability to rise to the
occasion, and I'd easily rather see Bo than Ellis.   I bet Burks doesn't
get more than 1 AB.

    Burks probably won't even get one at bat -- he hurt his hamstring last
    night.  I'd rather see a young upcoming star get a shot - Burks is
    playing some the best center field in the American league - than these
    'name-brand', mister Nike, guys go for hitting 270.

JD,
    The Boston Globe today reported the Boggs and Clemens do NOT get
bonuses.  Gorman had originally thought they did but after checking
the contracts realized that neither has an All-star bonus clause.
Of, course my source is the Boston Globe, so I could be wrong.

If Boddicker has an All-star bonus, Gorman should pay him anyhow.
Maybe that kind of gesture would help sway Boddicker to sign with 
the Sox.

                                                        Alan

    I would have taken Eisenreich and Boddicker instead of Burks and
    Saberhagen...

    Brook Jacoby has been named as Burks replacement for the All Star game. 
    Burks is sidelined with a strained hamstring.  Meanwhile Palmiero and
    Reed are still sitting at home.  I don't understan the Alan Trammel
    selection either.
    
    That stiff Boggs has raised his BA to about .310.  If not for a couple
    of outstanding defensive plays by the Rangers this weekend, his average
    and RBI's would have been up even more and so would the Sox lead.  Wade
    was a victim of poor exposure in previous All Star votes.  Gruber will
    get his chance.  What goes around, comes around.

    Another bum pick is Greg Olson, the reliver from the O's.
    
    Mike Schooler is having a vastly superior year - Olson does not
    belong, Schooler does.
    
    Matt the Mariner

    re .32:
    
    > Mike Schooler is having a vastly superior year - Olson does not
    > belong, Schooler does.
    
    What a crock.  Here are the stats for Olson and Schooler through
    Thursday's games, show me where Schooler is "vastly superior". 
    Schooler has an edge in saves because of more save opportunities, but
    Olson has a better H/IP ratio and a decidedly better ERA -- certainly
    not the stats of a "bum".  
    
    
              <<< ASABET::ASAB11:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BASEBALL.NOTE;2 >>>
                                 -< BASEBALL >-
================================================================================
Note 128.95                  The 1990 All Star Game                     95 of 97
CERBUS::KARLSON "Only 169 shopping days until Xmas!"  7 lines   9-JUL-1990 16:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here are Olson and Schooler's stats through Thursday's games.
    
                   W  L   G GS CG GF SH SV   IP    H   R  ER HR  BB SO  ERA
    Gregg Olson    4  3  30  0  0 28  0 15  42.1  27   6   6  1  15 42 1.28
    Mike Schooler  1  0  34  0  0 32  0 22  38.1  25   8   8  3  11 34 1.88
    
    								-rjk
    

    Matt...how's the foot taste.
    
    Mark.

    Regarding notes .33 & .34
    
    Schooler has only one blown save opportunity- how many has Olson
    blown?  When the game is on the line, Schooler comes in and earns
    the win.  I do not have the stats for Olson, but, I understand he
    has had a number of blown save opportunities.
                                       
    Seems to me this is the real measure of a closer not ERAs, or any
    other measure.  I stand by my comment- Schooler belongs, Olson 
    does not.
    
    Matt the Mariner whos foot is not in his opening
    

    re .36:                                                              
    
    >	Schooler has only one blown save opportunity
                                                    
    Note .22 says 21 saves in 24 opportunities for Schooler, which is
    correct?   
    
    I think Olson has three blown saves, don't have stats in from of me
    though.  I still feel that the "bum" comments in .32 are unjustified.
    
    
    py

    A writer in today's Austin-American Statesman suggests that the home
    field advantage for the World Series be decided by the All Star Game. 
    He writes that this would make the game mean something, would ensure
    that all players and managers are out there to win, would eliminate fan
    voting (what manager would want the fans picking his team), and would
    prevent pitchers like Clemens and Viola from pitching a couple of days
    before the game.
    
    What do you think?

    	Baseball is the sport where the home team advantage means the
    least.  The only time I believe it really mattered was in 1987 where
    two teams exclusively tailored for their respective parks battled
    it out.  So if rather than alternating years they want the All Star
    game to determine the home field advantage, it's fine with me.
    
    				/Don

    Any predictions on tonight's game?
    
    I'll say NL 9, AL 4.  HRs by Scoscia and Williams (3-run shot) for the
    NL, Gruber for the AL.  Sandberg goes 3 for 3 and gets MVP.
    
    
    py

    	Wind blowing out:
    		AL 14
    		NL  9
    
    	Canseco a 500 ft. homerun.  Ripken MVP.
    
    	Wind blowing in:
    		AL 3
    		NL 1
    
    	Canseco a 400 ft. homerun.  Henderson MVP.
    
    				/Don

    If the wind is blowing out and Canseco catches hold of one, he could
    hit it clear over Comisky Park (is that the right direction?)

Is Wrigley field big enough to hold Canseco's ego?

I caught him on 20/20 or whatever that show is a couple of weeks
back, and I'm sorry folks, I'm just not impressed with this guy....

The AL will be totally defensive.  The NL will come close about
16 times, and all of a sudden the Ump will make a call which
enables the NL to score a run.

The NL will win 1-0, and after the game the AL will mob the
ump.

People will claim it was the most boring All-Star game in years,
and almost unanimously convert to Soccer.  The move will sweep
the nation, people like Bruce will be thrown in prison, or
banished to the hinterlands, and in 4 years the world cup
will arrive.

The US team by that time will be a power to be reckoned with.
They will slide through a phenomenally exciting World Cup,
and win 2-1 in the Championship Game over Brazil.

People will party in the streets, and the President will declare
a week long national holiday....


(Hey, you wanted a prediction right!)

'Saw

    regarding note .37
    
    I stand corrected on Schoolers blown saves.  But 21 saves out of
    24 for opportunities (forgive the pun) is a good batting average.
                                          
    Please forgive the 'bum' comment.  If you read my original note,
    I stated in the body that Olson is a "bum pick".  That statement
    should have been included in the title.  
    
    Predicitons-  Cal leads the team to victory with a 3 run homer.
    AL 4, NL 2.
    
    Matt the Mariner 
    
    
    

    
    The game will be boring as usual.
    
    (I don't expect to eat crow over this one.)
    
    Dickster
    

    No sweat Matt; personally I thought Schooler should have been on the
    team too, though not at the expense of Olson.
    
    Almost time for the people on this coast to go home and root for the AL
    (despite my prediction a few back).
    
    
    py

    Paul,
    
    
    Why would people on this coast root for the AL?  :-)
    
    
    Mike.

    Hey, I been outta de country for some time.  
    
    Is it really true that the overrated pock-faced .230 hitting gilt-
    by-association bum McGwire is *starting* at first base?!
    
    MrT

    MrT,
    
    YOu are correct.  That's right Mr. McGwire got voted in by the fans
    over such folks as Cecil Fielder.  But don't worry, Tony LaRussa
    is dropping ol' Mark down to the #5 spot after the break, saying
    that Mark has to understand that they need more than some homers
    and ribbys from the #4 spot - that they can't put up with him hitting
    .230....
    
    
    I'd rather see Carlos Quintana on the team than Mr. McGwire.
    
    JD

Memories of this year's game:

	The new Bo Jackson-Nike commercial... 

	Bill Murray sings Happy Birthday

	Walking Wade to get to Jose

	Wade's 1.000 OBA 

	Julio's double off Dibble {then I went to bed}

    >	So, who won?  How long was the rain delay?
    
    AL won 2-0 after a 1 hour and 8 minute rain delay.  Julio Franco's two
    run double provided the only runs.  I ended up not watching any of it,
    and apparently I missed little...
    
    
    py

    You're right, Paul.  You missed little.  The best part of the whole
    game was when Craig had Boggs walked to get to Jose.  Now if that
    wasn't a "subtle" message.......
    

    I don't believe it, but I watched (sorta - it was on in the background
    while I did lotsa other stuff) the whole thing.  If it had been
    anyplace but Wrigley, I'd never of done it.  For me, the highlights of
    the evening were the 'color' pieces from around the stadium, and Harry
    Carey leading the faithful in "Take Me Out to the Ball Game", and
    getting a chance to see Ernie Banks one more time.......
    
    But then, the best summer of my life was spent being an usher at Cubs
    games.... I miss the *place*.
    
    A&W
    
    (and lights at Wrigley are the ultimate abomination)

>The game?  No way.  I've been reading "Watchers" by Dean Koontz and
>decided that was far more interesting that watching the All-Bores...

	Great book Saw!!  I'd love to have an Einstein.  They did 
a movie of it, very disapointing.

mc

    I only watched when Craig walked whomever to get at Mr. Enormous
    Ego.  I thought the shot of the dugout was hilarious, especially
    with Franco and Guillen imitating Jose's twitch.  That and when
    Ramon throught the ball high and tight, and poor Jose got perturbed.
    I really can't stomach that guy - he looked like "How dare you throw
    inside or brush me back, I'm the great Jose Canseco, the highest
    paid player in the game, you can't do that to  me..."   
    
    I then turned it off, went out front, fired up the barby and watched
    the sun slowly start to sink over the sound and the Olympics.
    Infinitely more interesting than the all-star game...;-)
    
    JD

    	Richard Speck.  Murdered a bunch of nurses.  Had a tatoo on
    his arm that said "Born to Raise Hell".

Thanks guys...now it's coming back to me.

"Born to Raise Hell", eh?


'Saw

>Had a tatoo on his arm that said "Born to Raise Hell".

Hey!  Dan has one of those, too!

    I know that this is going out of the base line, but since we're on the
    subject of murderers:  Has anyone heard about this Zodiac killer freak?
    I vaguely heard something on the radio this morning that this guy has
    said he will kill a person for each astrological sign, and he kills in
    a cycle on every 21st day(today).  Where the hell is this freak
    knocking off people anyways.(I'm not the best at keeping up with the
    news so I'm sorry if this is kind of well known).
    
    Tom
    

    Tom,
    
    It's in New York City.   He's knocked off 3 so far, I believe...
    
    JD

   I watched thru the fifth inning

   Zip / Zip 
   coupla  hits
   coupla walks
   Mr T woulda loved it
   nothing like a goodole pitcher's duel to get the old heart racing, hey?

   ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

   I started reading `Red Storm Rising'.... pretty good, so far.

   Mike JN

Mike,

Little hint to make Red Storm more enjoyable.

Keep a list of the Russian Generals and what they're responsible for.
I didn't do that, and everytime they'd get to talkin' about one, 
I'd have to scramble all over the book to jog my memory about
what the hell this one or that one did.

My brother tried that when he read it and it was easier....

Great book, I thought.

Also, you might want to try wearing your BDUs when you read the parts
about the land war, and switch to one of them submarine ball caps
when you read about the subs.  Makes you feel really involved....

Hope this shlepping wonks you out,
'Saw

    While we are on the subject of all-starts, Rev. Bud, wierd interviews,
    weirdos, et. al. . . . . consider this: 
                                           
    I enjoy professional wrestling not only for the action in the ring
    but also, what happens outside the mat.  The interviews are more
    interesting than the matches.  The brains behind wrestling have
    enhance and fine tuned the sport where you have strong personalities 
    who entertain you between and during matches.  In fact the wrestling
    is secondary to the main entertainment provided by Brother Love; Bobby 
    the Brain; the Lovely Elizabeth; the manager of the Harts whos name 
    I forget.  ESPN seems to have tried a similar approach with Dick
    Vitale, a show outside the main show.  But Vitale pales in comparison 
    to the Brain or even Brother Love.  He's all mouth, no show.
                                                                
    To my point, major league baseball should promote a concept similar
    to this in its broadcasts.  Perhaps an upscaled Harry Cary or a
    Brother Love of BB.  The pace of baseball being what it is, this
    seems to me to be a concept whos time has come.  Into the 90s!
                                                                
    Matt the Mariner  ;^)                                       
                      

    re .75 (Matt),
    
    If you don't already have it in your notebook, check out the wrestling
    conference at WWF::WRESTLING.
    
    Comparing Vitale to "The Brain" is like comparing a Yugo to a Mercedes
    (only 1/2 :-)).
    
    
    py

Geez, this discussion kinda give a whole new meaning to the
term "Murderers Row"


Wrasslin' is great entertainment.  For me, I get a real kick out
of second guessing Vinnie, and who's gonna turn bad etc.  Some of the
stuff is so blatant you can see it a mile away.

Predicting matches while they're on blows my friends minds.  I'll be
watching a match, and say "well so and so looks down now, but he'll
win yet, he'll do this and this and this and then get the pin"....

There is some athletics involved, because coming off the top rope
you've got to be a least a little agile....


Anyway, what's the news on when Manson comes up for parole again?

'Saw (who finds these murderer guys more interesting that Jose CanHeBlow)

    What was the final score anyway?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    It was 2-0, Mike.  The National League set the record for least hits in
    an All Star Game with 2.

    American League won on penalty kicks, I think.  The managers had to
    play goal, and Roger Craig couldn't stop Saberhagen or Eckersley.  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

    re books.
    
    Red Storm Rising is good but the best Clancy book is "Cardinal of the
    Kremlin". Dean Koontz is pretty good, after "Watchers", pick up "Mask".
    
    re Wrass'lin
    
    Real predictable, but would you rather figger out who shot JR or figger
    out how Hulk Hogan is gonna get the Championchip back. A Soap is a
    soap.
    
    re Murderer, wierdo's and crap like dat.
    
    I was always partial to Ted Bundy, Just when you think you're getting
    to know someone.
    
    re da game.
    
    I was hoping that Martinez would come hard inside and saw Jose's bat
    right outta his hands.

    Has anybody read PRESUMED INNOCENT; I'm in the middle of it right now
    and it's pretty entertaining.  If any of you have read it, that's a
    pretty sick way to go(the rope apparatus around Carolyn's body, even if
    she already was dead.)  What did you think of the book?
    
     I've read Patriot Games and Hunt for Red October, and I liked Patriot
    Games the better of the two.
    
    my 2$
    Tom

    Hey Ronald... I read it.  Excellent book.  Good ending.

    
    I have a hard time getting through "Patriot Games"...week after
    week!
    
    re: "treat me like the pig..."
    
       Is this an original quote from Franklin "Dice" Chainsaw?
    
    Dickster
    

Patriot Games - Gak...

Everytime Ryan referred to his wife as "Babe" I wanted to lose my lunch.
Clancy should stick to action and ignore the dialog.

My ratings:

	1) Hunt For Red OCtober
	2) Red Storm Rising
	3) Cardinal of the Kremlin
	4) Patriot Games

I haven't read Clear and Present Danger yet.  I have to finish
Karnow's Vietnam book first.

Mike

Re Treat me like the pig....

Yeah, sort of.

I hadn't particularly cared for the Diceman, but my date the other
night wanted to see Ford Fairlane.  So we went.

I had a really good time.  He was pretty funny, and that one line
"Treat me like the pig that I am" just blew me away.

BTW, I'd highly recommend the sound track from the movie.  There
were a couple of pretty heavy references to Hendrix, and a lot of
the other tunes were good.

oh yeah, Al Bundy is in the movie, along with Gilbert Gottfried,
Wayne Newton, 2/3 of Motley Crue and Morris Day.


JMHO,
'Saw

    < Note 286.85 by CSC32::J_HERNANDEZ "Look For the, Bear necessities!!" >


>    re books.
>    
>    Red Storm Rising is good but the best Clancy book is "Cardinal of the
>    Kremlin". Dean Koontz is pretty good, after "Watchers", pick up "Mask".

    Debil Dawg, I agree with 'Saw that they are all good save for Patriot
    Game, which sipped big-time.  Being a jar-head, I figgered that
    you'd like _A Clear and Present Danger_ best cuz it features
    conventional combat.
    
    Mark.

    re.91:
    
    Karnow's _Viet Nam_ is a very good book, but takes a long time to
    get through.
    
    Mark.

    re Lufay, 
    
    I will start reading "Clear and Present Danger" today after work and
    before happy hour. Then I drink 'til Monday at 6:00am.

    Re .94
    
    Mark,
    
    Tell me about it.  I've been reading it on and off for 6 months.
    The first half is pretty slow, but once the American involvement
    starts, the book moves along pretty well.
    
    Bright Shining Lie is next, since I'm in a Vietnam mode.
    
    Mike

    In case youse guys decide to stray from the pop-propaganda books
    and broaden your horizons:
    
    1. Foucault's Pendulum		Umberto Eco 
    
    					  Former IU prof, wrote Name of the
    					  Rose, regarded as Italy's leading 
    					  intellectual.
    
    2. Vineland				Thomas Pynchon 
    
    					  Best American novelist, whoever
       					  he is.
    
    
    3. On Bended Knee			Mark Hertsgaard 
    
    					  Much praised well documented expose
    					  on right-wing nature of American 
    					  media.
    
    4. Rheinhart In Love		Thomas Berger 
    
    					  Wrote Neighbors, Little Big Man, 
    					  Killing Time; quality Midwesterner 
    				          from OSU-ville (i.e., Columbus, Ohio)
    
    5. Painted Lady			Francoise Sagan
    
    					  Brilliant teen gal French novelist
    					  is grown up now, master of the
   					  art of characterization 
    
    MrT

    T, you *really* should get out more.  :^)
    
    BTW, how's the CD collection coming along?
    
    Mark.

    There are other conferences for book and movie reviews, as well as CD
    discussions.

Picked up Foucalt's Pendulum the other day.  Looking forward
to reading it, as it looks really good.

Looking really good is something the ALL-STAR game didn't do.
It was boring, long, over-hyped, boring, uneventful, full of
popular players some of whom weren't all-stars but all-pops.

That's probably why we digressed into something infinitely more
interesting....

JMHO,
'Saw

Hey, MrT, Pynchon couldn't carry John Irving's jock...

 World According to Garp   
 Hotel New Hampshire
 Cider House Rules
 A Prayer for Owen Meany

America's top fiction writer of the 80's.   

    Stephen King would have something to say about that.
    
    OBTW, the score of the All Star game was 2-0, AL.
    
    Mark.

    Gee isn't Lufay on the ball today? 
    
    Whatta guy, keep up the work.

>    Stephen King would have something to say about that.

Stephen King is the Wade Boggs of the literary set.  

>oh yeah, Al Bundy is in the movie, along with Gilbert Gottfried,
>Wayne Newton, 2/3 of Motley Crue and Morris Day.
    
    And Dice Clay too?  An obvious attempt to put as many obnoxious people
    in one movie as possible.

    The best living american writer is Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.  The rest
    are mere imposters.  Read him, read Hunter S. Thompson.  I like
    Clancy's books - airline fodder.  Can finish one off on a cross-country
    trip.  Amazing how many Clancy-like books there are.  Finished off
    Red Phoenix last flight.  Many times I buy a book at the airport
    (books like "Boomer", the "Warbirds", etc), finish 'em, and leave
    them in the magazine pouch on the plane.  Last flight there was
    a book in the pouch, I picked it up.  "Summer Heat"  Straight Porno,
    made me sweat.
    
    ;-)  I left it for the next customer....
    
    JD

I think you have to examine writer's motives.

Vonnegut is GREAT.  He does not write for pure entertainment value, though.
(His books are entertaining, but he's trying to "say" something).
I feel that author like Faulkner, Fitzgerald et al were trying to 
convey some great message.

Authors like King, Clancy and others are just trying to entertain.
There is room for both types in our world, just as there is room 
for the avant garde classical composer (message) and the contemporary
song writer (entertainment).

Both derive enjoyment out of what they do.  We derive it also.

BTW, the NL set a record for fewest hits in an All-**** game.

'Saw

    Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger is out in paperback.  Just bought
    it tonight.
    
    John

>    3. On Bended Knee			Mark Hertsgaard 
>    
>    					  Much praised well documented expose
>    					  on right-wing nature of American 
>    					  media.
    
    "I can't feel you anymore, I can't even touch the books you've read"
    
    - Bob Dyan, Idiot Wind

    Interesting article on Ozzie Guillen in this Sunday's local paper.  It
    was written by a baseball stats guy (who writes a weekly column and
    often invokes the names of James, Elias, et.al.) who gave reasons why
    Guillen should have been at home watching the All Star game.  He claims
    that everyone is looking at Guillen's high BA and the turn around of
    the White Sox and ignoring everything else.  Guillen is basically a
    singles hitter on a team that doesn't score many runs.  The White Sox
    turnaround is due to the pitching, not Guillen's .300 BA, nor his
    defense.  In a year when offense is up, the White Sox are scoring less
    runs than last year and have a lower ERA than last year (and are also
    low in the league in both categories this year).  Guillen's defense is
    about the same as last year.  The writer uses total bases to further
    exemplify why Guillen is not an all star.  Players like Fisk, Sierra,
    and Boggs have total bases in the high 200's while Guillen has not
    broken 200 yet.  He doesn't walk much and rarely gets an extra base
    hit.  In fact, if you total his extra base hits and walks, he has as
    many as Rich Gedman who is batting .187.

    And Mac, to me, it's that type of statistical evidence that is slowly
    and surely killing my interest in baseball.  (My opinion, of course.)
    I always thought the beauty of baseball was you could argue over
    who was better, DiMaggio or Williams, and never find the answer.
     Now, dweebs (again, my opinion) like James try to fine-tune and
    analyze the game so that you can't have arguements like that before
    someone invokes one of the Statistical Satanic Verses like Elias
    and James.    And, when voting for the all-star team, Guillen was
    leading the league in hitting (or was in the top 3, something like
    that), and to me, I didnt' need to go running to one of Satanic
    Verses to make up my mind.  Same as voting for Dykstra.  At the
    time, they were all-stars, and thankfully NL voters, who don't need
    artificial offensive stimulation to function, voted him in.
    
    JD

Jd

	Sounds like the world has figured out there is more to baseball 
(offensivly) then batting average and home runs and now your upset becuase
people are looking at the facks and basing their opinions on the 'big
picture'.  Not just BA and HR's. 

mc

    
    Lets compare Guillens OBP and Slugging Percentage to Ripken's.
    How many walks does Guillen have?
    

    Mike,
    
    i said it was my opinion.  Folks who like to bury their noses in
    the satanic verses of stat-mongers like James and Elias are certainly
    able to do so to there heart's content.  To me, it takes a lot of
    the fun out of the game.  It just transcends a lot about our society,
    a society that can't function on imagination anymore.
    
    Creativity is a dying art in America.
    
    JD

    I think that these All-Star games are flawed to the extent they fail
    to replicate real baseball.  It's a game of constant relief pitchers,
    except with better talent and stuff than normally seen in even All-Star
    relievers - nobody gets a second look, no stuff to save, no arms to save,
    in sum a_unnatural environment that allows the pitchers to dominate.
    
    In one instance, a_useful role for the Designated Geek.
    
    >Much praised by who?!
    
    Wouldn't that be *whom*, O literary critic?  And whoever in here used
    the words "literary" and "Steven King" in the same sentence should be 
    apprehended by the Police and forced to turn in his library card
    to local authorities immediately!  And bad news for you too, JD, guess
    which city and state Kurt V is from, and which college hoops team he
    roots for.
    
    Ross, you're right about Irving being a great one; I'd rate him thusly:
    
    American Novelists:		1. Pynchon
    				2. Berger
    				3. Irving
    				4. Vonnegut
                                   .
    				   .
    				   .
    			   1,493.  Jay McInerney
    
  	MrT

    Saw,  
    I didn't say it was dead, just dying, and it's the mood I'm in today,
    anyway.  
    
    MrT:
    
     I agree wif you on the all-star game.  Perhaps it gives us a glimpse
    of 'future-ball', the baseball of the future, where everyone will
    be specialized to the point where pitchers only go an inning or
    two.  No true starters, just relievers.  Will make the stat hounds
    real happy.
    
    And it should be called the some-star game, anyway.
    
    JD

>    Creativity is a dying art in America.
>    
 	I don't know Jd thats kind of stretching it.  I mean all these
new stats were created.  Had America not been creative they just would
have setteled for BA.

mc

    So I overreacted.   I don't find \new' stats to be creative, however.
    
    Just a way to de-humanize the game with scientific poppycock.
    
    JD

I was the one who used literary and Steven King in the same sentence.

I don't feel like going back and pulling out my reply to see exactly
what I said, but my reasoning is somewhat like this:

King is a writer who writes for pure entertainment.  Therefore, since
one person's entertainment is another person's garbage, there are 
widely varying opinions as to his worth.

In the genre of horror, however, I would rate King at or near the top
of his field.  He does it with style within his genre.  He writes about
the current time period we live in, and people can identify with that.

Personally, I enjoy King and am entertained by his writing.  But also,
I feel that I can say that in light of the fact that I also read classical
literature, I've plowed my way through Victor Hugo's endless sentences, with
their clauses upon clauses, I read Shakespeare, Twain, Melville.  I've
started reading Faulkner, and plan on reading Joyce.

With an open minded, eclectic background like that, I figure I can get
away with some pure entertainment value for a while.

Oh yeah....  Agreed about the All-Unatural Game...

'Saw

    The All-Star Game is now just an exhibition.  Several of the old-time
    National League stars have commented that their legendary "killer
    instinct" just isn't there anymore.
    
    Used to be that the NL dominated the All-Star Games and the reason they
    gave was that they seemed to want to win it more than the AL did.  Now,
    the game itself is just the final media event in a two or three day
    media circus of events.
    
    Sounds like NL sour grapes to me but the "intensity" of the play has
    definitely dropped in the last few years.  The AL may have won the last
    few games but they certainly haven't been dominating.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    'Saw, please don't attempt "Ulysses" or "Finnegan's Wake" without
    a healthy heapin' helpin' of your home grown 'shrooms.  Man, Joyce
    was a spaced-out dude who perplexes many a literary scholor to this
    day.  Even the best can't comprehend his style and meaning without
    the proper application of drugs, alcohol, or explosives.
    
    Uhmmm...back to the topic:  I *like* the all-star game being an
    exhibition of our so-called living legends of baseball.  So what
    if some rookie is having a great April-May and is hitting a few
    points higher, for my money I want to see the Willie Mays' and the
    Johnny Bench's and the Mickey Mantle's, not some flash in the pan.
    
    Pitchers, however, should be chosen on their *current* merit, given
    their propensity for ups and downs.  This year I would have made
    one exception for Nolan Ryan.
    
    Dickster
    

    I've stopped getting upset about who gets voted to the All-Star game.
    It's just like Halls of Fame and any other individual honor - it's
    opinion, nothing more, and without any sort of objective criteria, it's
    not worth getting upset about.
    
    On the subject of stats, I have to agree with JD to a certain extent
    but disagree to another extent.  I think the more objective,
    quantifiable means of evaluation there are, the better.  If baseball
    would come into the 20th century, they'd realize that there's a lot of
    good to be gained from the use of the new stats.  Understanding where a
    team is strong or weak, which players are best in certain situations,
    which players are better against other players or in different ball
    parks, will help put a stronger team on the field.  Basketball and
    hockey are doing more with video tape all the time, football does more
    with computer analysis of tendencies and trends all the time, so I
    believe that baseball should modernize.
    
    At the same time, we should always remember that these are human beings
    playing the games, and the variation in human performances are what
    makes them exciting.  When I'm at a Patriots game, it's work.  When I
    watch a Patriots game on TV, it's work to a certain extent.  For any
    other sporting event, I can watch and enjoy without having to quote
    chapter and verse from my Elias Baseball Analyst (if it happens to be a
    baseball game).
    
    Where I agree with JD is that the sabremetricians, rotisserie players
    (and I don't mean to insult anybody here) and collectors have somehow
    perverted the game to the extent where a player's value as a
    collectible or as the member of a fantasy team becomes more important
    than the player himself and the team he represents.  For the figure
    nuts, the numbers hung up by the player are more important than the
    player himself.  The increased awareness by the players of their own
    performances is reducing the game more and more to a disconnected set
    of individual performances where they play for themselves rather than
    for the team.  The increasing interest in baseball collectibles is
    what's led to players being paid to appear and sign at card shows. 
    This will mean short term money for the players but long term loss in
    interest by the fans.
    
    Besides the fact that I don't have the time to play rotisserie well
    (not to mention the fact that I can't bet sports to save my life so
    what makes me think I can do any better at rotisserie) the above is the
    reason I don't play.  I don't collect for the same reason.  I also try
    not to go overboard with the analysis I put in here, but I like the
    approach of let's get an objective answer first, rather than finding
    data to support a pre-conceived conclusion.  That's why Bill James
    started doing what he does.
    
    The increasing marketing tie-ins to baseball are what really ruins it
    for me.  As the game is used more and more as a vehicle for selling
    things, it becomes forgotten that this is a game, first and foremost.
    Naturally, it's a business, but when you see situations where the game
    is incidental to promotion (ie, the minors) then there's a real
    problem.
    
    John

    John,
    
    Thanks, you hit many of my feelings right on.  I do play rotis
    baseball,which I'm really bad out, cuz I don't follow stats closely
    enough, and I don't like it that much becuse it's just numbers and
    younever compete head to head, like you do in the hoop and football
    rotis leagues I'm in.   
    
    JD

They will never be able to quantify the heart of a man, and
heart is the reason why men like Jim Abbott play baseball.

Yogi Berra was not the fleetest of foot, but he had spirit like
you wouldn't believe.

Give me a man who has spirit, and can make things happen, despite
statistics that might be contrary.

'Saw

>Give me a man who has spirit, and can make things happen, despite
>statistics that might be contrary.
    
    ...  and I'll show you a losing rotisserie team...
    
    (Just to keep the conversation LIVELY :-)
    
    ML

      re: baseball stats

   I see they now have (among others) stats on
   	AT BATS;  AVG;  RBI'S;  HOME RUNS;  RUNS;  BASE ON BALLS

   What the hell is the difference between home runs ... and runs..?
   They're already tracking RBI's.

   Finished Red Storm and liked it, haven't read Patriot Games, but liked
   Clancy's other books. I also like SF. Just finished `Blood Music' by
   Greg Bear ( I prefer SF by scientists... that is, the hard science type
   books ). Stephen King's best book was `The Stand'. Nothing else he's
   written even approaches it, and I've given up reading him. Foucault's
   Pendulum isn't something I'd be willing to buy. `The Name Of The Rose'
   which he wrote, was widely panned as an over-intellectualized piece of
   excrement. He must have pissed the critics off somehow. They usually
   rave about over-intellectualized pieces of excrement. I don't always
   agree. Many heralded authors lose sight of the fact that, as `Saw
   mentioned, their job is to entertain. I have the mental capacity to
   follow almost any writer you could think of... that's my job. Telling a
   story which is interesting is the job of the author; one at which they
   oftentimes fail abysmally.

   Mike JN

    RBI  runs batted in
    HR   obvious
    RUNS player touches home
    
    Thus a HR automatically adds 1 RBI and 1 RUN.
    
    The Wizard

MikeJN...Stand was great, I liked "It" also.

Finished "Watchers"...what a great book.  I loved the part where the
guy says to Travis "I'm your worst nightmare", and then Travis blows
him away.

I guess they track HRs as some measure of the guy's power.

You can't quantify baseball down to the nth degree, I don't think.
There aren't very many games that you could.

Perhaps, with the inherent physics of it, you could totally quantify
billiards, but I can't think of anything else that you could....

JMHO,
'Saw

    Hawk, which word didn't you understand?
    
    Mark.

>  Pendulum isn't something I'd be willing to buy. `The Name Of The Rose'
>   which he wrote, was widely panned as an over-intellectualized piece of
>   excrement. He must have pissed the critics off somehow. They usually
>   rave about over-intellectualized pieces of excrement. I don't always


 THe Name of the Rose was virtually impossible to read unless you had a decent 
knowledge of Latin. Nothing bothers me more than trying to read a book that 
changes languages in mid sentence.

Just one more quick literary note....If you like Robert Ludlum books do yourself
a favor and stay away from his latest Bourne Book (the Bourne ultimatum I think)
It is by far the poorest written book he has ever written and one of the poorest
best sellers I have read in ages.

got to get ahold of the Next CLive Cussler myself....


Metz

    Metz, I gave up on Ludlum eons ago.  It seems that once he achieved
    fame for his earlier works (_Scarletti Inheritance_, _Gemini
    Contenders_, _Holcroft Covenant_, etc), he simply took a template
    and applied different character twists to make a story.
    
    Hero's girlfriend gets off'd, hero travels the world using funds
    from international banks to find perps, hero falls in love with
    beautiful international spy, hero finds perps, hero kills perps,
    hero retires at secluded hideaway with aforementioned beautiful
    international spy.  End of story.
    
    BTW, is George Bell going on the DL and is Molitor coming off?
    
    Mark.

I agree to some extent Mark,

I thought that the Bourne Identity was a very entertaining book simply because
he added the amnesia twist into his template plot.

As far as Tom Clancy goes...I think his latest Clear and Present danger was his
weakest effort so far. I think he threw in Jack Ryan into the book simply 
because he's  been in every book so far. It seemed like he had to contrive the
plot to include Ryan and it didn't work for me. The descriptions of modern
light infantry techniques were enjoyable however....


Metz

    Hawk, :^)
    
    Mark.

    To some of the way earlier replies,  what's in Vonnegut's writing that
    you like about it.(serious ?-- not trying to sound like an Ahole or
    be antagonistic).  I read Cat's Cradle in high school and absolutely
    despised it.  I read Slaughterhouse Five a few summers ago, and enjoyed
    some parts of it, but I got annoyed with his style pretty quickly.  I
    thought that he tried too hard to be symbolic and different in how he
    tried to relate his messages to the reader.  I guess I just didn't find
    his books very good entertainment because they grated on my nerves. 
    Ludlum's Bourne Identity(I only read because I was bored out of my
    skull)  was pretty good,  but he dragged it out too long(minute
    descriptions and gibberish).  Just my opinion, God knows that I'm no
    literary critic.
    I hate reading in general, and rarely read for enjoyment. One exception,
    Presumed Innocent, is very good.  I'm over 1/2way thru it.
    
    Tom
                                

    _Cat's Cradle_ is one of my all time favorite novels.
    
    BTW, when does Molitor come off the DL?
    
    Mark.

"Cat's Cradle" really caught my fancy.  Ice Nine...too cool.
Couldn't tell ya why I like Vonnegut, I just do.  I also LOVE to
read, and am a voracious reader.

(Anyone know why the Grateful Dead's publishing company is called Ice Nine?)

Finished "Watchers".   Very, very cool book...

Another author to check out is Robert P. MacCammon, if you like Horror type
stuff.  Read "Stinger".

Oh yeah, can anyone tell me, when Andrew Dice Clay is coming of the DL?

HTH,
'Saw

>     Stephen King's best book was `The Stand'. Nothing else he's
>   written even approaches it, 
    
    I agree 10,000 % !!!!!! That book rocked the hell out of me. And
    that was the edited version. The unabridged version is really
    something. 
    
    And while I like to see a movie made based on The Stand, if it's
    anything like some of the other stinkers done - forget it. I'd rather
    reread the book.
    
    Dr M.
    

Dr M., how much longer is the unabridged version?  The Stand was always my
favorite King book.  Followed by the Dark Towers books, I can't wait for
the third.

mc

Sounds like I'll have to checkout this Stand book, but for now my favorite
is Misery. Believable terror not the super natural stuff that he usually
writes....

mike

       Well, Dock, at least we agree on something, eh? The Stand was the 
    first King book I read, I've been hooked since. You're also right about
    the movies made from his books.
                                          Denny

The only King movie that I liked was "Stand By Me".  I felt it
captured the feelings of the four kids really well.  (Youth is a 
major recurring theme in King's stuff).

Anyway, one reason his movies never work well is a reason that King
himself gave in Danse Macabre, his non-fiction work on Horror.

Imagine yourself walking this dark lonely hallway to this big
door.  Behind the door is an incredible monster waiting to 
get you.

As you turn the knob and open the door, you see the monster.

Now, in a book, the monster is inside your own head, and is created
out of your deepest, darkest, subconscious fears (with a little prodding
from the author).  No one can scare you more than yourself.

In a movie, you see the monster.  Personally, it never scares me more
than what I can dream up....


The Stand is truly epic.

'Saw

    re: the monster in your head
    
    But have you ever, ever, ever, ever, ever seen a movie that was better
    than the original book?  There are some movies that are great and you
    say, "boy, that was as good as the book."  But I've never walked out of
    a theater and said, "that was better than the book."
    
    Your mind is the best movie screen there is.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    DeMilles' "The Ten Commandments" was better than the book, IMO.
    
    Dickster
    

Press KP7 to add KAYGEE::BOOKS to your notebook.  I think you'll find this
discussion more relevant to that file than the All-Star discussion.

j.

    re .144
    
    Mike, the unabridged version at least doubles the length of the
    book. We're talking some 100,000 words at least. From what I remember
    (I was reading the book at a storem, next thing I knew, 1.5 hours
    had passed), the publisher wanted to get the book out by a certain
    time, so King had to lop off large parts of the book. It's really
    amazing that he was able to do this, and yet still keep the essense
    of the book.  BTW, this version has a new ending.
    
    re Last few (on characterization),
    
    King pretty much said the same thing in his forward in The Stand
    (updated) - that we all have probably casted every character in
    our minds, and perhaps it's better that way. But he does expect
    a movie to be made based on the book.
    
    (Question : Who would you cast and Randall Flagg ? The best I can
    do is a cross between Jack Nicholsen, the guy who played "The Hitcher",
    and maybe Steven Segal.)
    
    The best match that I've ever seen for a King movie was Christopher
    Walken in "The Dead Zone", FWIW.
    
    DrM 

   Maybe when we head off on a tangent like this, we oughta put in a
   pointer and start a new note, ie. BOOKS AND STUFF THAT SPORTS NOTERS
   LIKE OR HATE, ETC....
   It probably is a bummer if you were interested in the All-Star Game
   (Although I can't imagine anybody who IS) and kept looking through for
   info and finding nothing but a discussion on books.

   whaddayathinkanywayhuh?
   Mike JN

Mike JN,

In a normal conference it would be a dandy idea to start up new topics when
minds go on tangents.

However, this logic does not apply to OURGNG::SPORTS - indeed, I can't stand 
sports - I read this conference to find out about all the OTHER stuff happening
in the world - Dylan Thomas, Stephen King, beer commercials - you know, the
stuff that really COUNTS.

If there is anyone who really is here to discuss sports (and I suspect that
there are not many) tell them to go to BOOKS or RECORDS or somewhere.  No
doubt the intricacies of pitching and the speed of those bicycles is being
debated there!

Hop this slops,

rick ellis

       King is certainly a lot more interesting than baseball, 'specially
    the All-Star game!
                                     Denny

    Anyone who is seriously interested in sports would be well-advised to
    add to his notebook the conference devoted to his team and/or sport. 
    I'm sure ASABET::BASEBALL has a *normal* type discussion of the All
    Star Game.
    
    Here, we take the road less traveled.....
    
    A&W

    Well,IMO the All-Star game SURE DID SUCK so why can't we use this
    useless remnant of the all-star note for something decent like Stephen
    King discussions????????????????????????????????
    
    I'm reading "The Dark Half" right now and it's not one of his best but
    it's good, nevertheless.
    
    JaKe
    

I believe it was Thoreau who wrote of marching to the beat of
a different drummer.

We surely do that in this conference.

SPORTS is the sum total of it's internal factors, and such external
factors which impinge upon it.  Like a child who doesn't know how
to smile, Sports would be a sad place indeed if it were all
diatribes and dastisticks.

And remember how Frost finished that immortal poem about taking
the road less travelled....

	It has made all the difference

       For all you King fans, he has his owm Conference: it's at
    DNEAST::CASTLE_ROCK.
                                        Denny

    I've enjoyed:
    Crazy Stuff
    1. Thomas Mcguane
    	Sporting Club
    	Bushwacked Piano
    	92 In The Shade
    
    Sci-fi
    1. **** Effinger
    	What Entropy Means To Me
    	All his books
    2. Jose Farmer
    	Riverworld Series
    	Dayworld (Great Concept)
    
    Novels
    1. Thomas Pynchon
    	V.
    	Gravities Rainbow
    	W.A.S.T.E. (or was it T.R.A.S.H)
    
    2. Hunter S. Thompson
    	Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
    
    

    >    <<< Note 286.143 by FRSBEE::BROOKS "Drexler,ZinaGarrison,DrM" >>>
    
    Let's see...
    
    Drexler, surprised some people, didn't do anything in NCAA finals,
    surprised some people and didn't do anything in the NBA finals...
    
    Zina, surprised some people at Wimbledon, didn't do anything in the
    finals...
    
    Next?  Do we need to comment on this?
    ha ha..

    Kinda hard up, aren't we Walt ?
    
    For those of your that were wondering about that p-name :
    
    C. Drexler - Sterling H.S. 1977-79
    G. Brooks - Guess where ? - 1979
    Z. Garrison - ""      ""   1980-82
    
    It's been a good year for Houston kids .... :-)

    You set yourself up pal, not me...

    Dream on .....
    
    
    

    >>             -< Mondale,Schneider, Dukakis,Ashe .... :-) >-
    
    Doc, you forgot to throw Florio in that string...NJ Governer. Applauded
    by Dukakis and Cuomo for his "plan". 
    
    JoJ

    Yeah, sure, we can add it..
    
    >>             -< Mondale,Schneider, Dukakis,Florio, K-k-kenny, .... :-) >-
    
    

    Jim Florio is just cleaning up Elmer Fudd's eight-year mess.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Maybe Brooke will help bail them out, wasn't she an Elmer favorite?

    >>Jim Florio is just cleaning up Elmer Fudd's eight-year mess.
    
    Yeah, right. He whines about the deficit. He raises the sales tax,
    makes some previously exempt items taxable, reduces state funding to
    many of the school districts which naturally increases property taxes,
    cuts the homeowner's rebate in half, and...at the same time, he and the
    other geeks in the State Legislature vote themselves a $10,000 salary
    increase!!!!
    
    Plus, none of the above even addresses the hiring of unqualified family
    members to fill high paying positions in the state government.
    
    He's a slime, a slug, a crook, and a weasle.
    
    JoJ

    Speaking of the Garden State, thus the Meadowlands, 15 years ago today
    Jimmy Hoffa dissapeared from a Detroit suburb.
    
    And while we're on a tangent, I've been saying for five years, history 
    will show that Jimmy Carter was a better president than the astrologer's
    friend, Reagan.
    
    					Steve

	Take it to mail or the Jersey conference.

mc

    re: Bob Hunt
    
    Lemme tell ya, some of the crap Florio pulled is just plain
    unbelievable.
    
    His "education plan" is among the worst pieces of legislation I've ever
    seen.
    
    Abe Lincoln was wrong, you CAN fool all of the people all of the time.
    Especially the democrats.
    
    JoJ

    re .171
    
    Amen Steve. It's interesting that ole Ronnie used to hang up a Calvin
    Coolridge picture in the Oval Office. 
    
    Coolridge of course, led the U.S. during the Roaring 20's. Under his
    leadership, the economy became a time bomb that went off in the lap of
    his Republican successor Herbert Hoover.
    
    Why do I think history will repeat itself ?
    
    Doc

    re JoJ
    
    Wardle, stop complain' about Da Tax.
    
    My gas just jumped 6 cents a gallon as of 12:01 am Saturday....
    courtesy of a new Mass Gas Tax .....

    Jesse Helms is running against Harvey Gantt, former mayor of Charlotte,
    for United States Senator.  And, yes, Gantt is black.  He needs a lot
    of support.  Helms has done his usual thing, that is, he's pumped out
    millions and millions of mass mail pieces spreading all kinds of
    hysteria about liberals, homosexuals, AIDS victims, blacks, Jews, and
    so on.   And, of course, he asks for token donations.  He's collected a
    huge war chest from around the country, not just North Carolina.  He'll
    bury Gantt if it comes down to a spending battle.   Gantt needs the
    other black leaders to support him.  He needs Dinkins, Jackson, Wilder,
    and Andy Young to back him up.  Leave Marion Barry and Wilson Goode at
    home.
    
    If there is a God, Helms will lose.  He is the epitome of the old
    racist South and, all too often, comes frighteningly close to taking
    this country back to the Joe McCarthy era.  Witness this flap with the
    NEA funding and the Mapplethorpe exhibits.
    
    And I do not understand what James Meredith is doing involved with
    Helms.   Meredith, the first black to enroll at the University of
    Mississippi, was one of the great symbols of the 1960s civil rights
    movement.   Now he's one of Helms' hate-and-fear mongers.
    
    Ouch ...
    
    Sorry for the non-SPORTS diversion ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    Hey joJ,
    
    How come you aren't all over your hero, George Bush, like you are
    Florio?   Ol' George sure is making a mess of things ain't he. 
    Oh, I get it, you're one of the folks who *believed* him when he
    said *No New Taxes*   Some folks sure are gullible.   That line
    had me rollward when he first said it.  
    
    JD

    Well JD, let's just say that Florio not only raised taxes, hired his
    family and friends, voted for a raise in pay for himself and his
    cronies, but on top of that, ignored entirely the group of economists
    at Rutgers and Princeton that were put in place by the previous
    Democratic governer to examine the budget and what effects the proposed
    tax changes would do not only for the budget, but for the state
    economy.
    
    Bottom line, he pulled a sleeze deal on all of us.
    
    JoJ

     <<< Note 286.179 by PARVAX::WARDLE "have YOU been set hidden today" >>>

    Well JD, let's just say that Florio not only raised taxes, hired his
    family and friends, voted for a raise in pay for himself and his
    cronies, but on top of that, ignored entirely the group of economists
    at Rutgers and Princeton that were put in place by the previous
    Democratic governer to examine the budget and what effects the proposed
    tax changes would do not only for the budget, but for the state
    economy.
    
>>>    Bottom line, he pulled a sleeze deal on all of us.
    
    JoJ


 and so isn't George every single day. Educational president? What has he
 done for education? Enviromental president? What has he done for the envir-
 oment? On every key issue at home he's dropped the burden back on the states
 to make the decision. His one big claim to fame is going after Noregia in
 Panama to protect his own butt. When's the last time anyone heard anything
 about ole Manuel? And to boot he did at christmas time and ruined a few
 people's holidays and of course lifes with the men and women we lost.

 AND MOST IMPORTANTLY WHAT ABOUT THE HOMELESS????

 not a thing but hey let's have these million dollar summits with Gorby
 and see how many bombs to build this year....

 The Dukester is a real joke but he'd have been better than this bum...

mike

    Interesting SPORTS discussion here, eh?
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Not to mention that other drivel from his campaign about "kinder and gentler"
and "a thousand points of light" ...

This same kinder and gentler windbag vetoed the bill that would have mandated
some semi-decent family leave policies in case of childbirth, family illness,
or other hardship.  Said he thought it was a good idea but the employers ought
to do it on their own.

Yeah, right.  They've shown tremendous progress on that front, haven't they,
George ???   They've all just bellied right on up to the bar and joined the
rest of the world in guaranteeing basic family securities.

What a slime.  I hope his S&L sleaze-kid gets his boots fried.   At this point,
I think Barbara Bush ought to run the country.  She's at least got a decent
heart and half a brain.

Bob Hunt

P.S.  And let's not forget that we have to pray every night that Bush lives. 
Talk about the lesser of two evils.  Double ouch ...

    Very sorry Mac, but I've got to add 1 thing here, since I missed-out
    yesterday........  :-)
    
    re:  $.06/ gallon gas tax increase in MA
    
    I was extremely surprised, and tickled rollward, when I read in my
    Sunday paper that, even with this increase, gas is still cheaper in MA
    than in "Live Free or Die" NH, the land where the disgusted MA
    residents defect when times get a little tough.  Living in a border
    town, I decided to take a little ride and see for myself.  Sure enough,
    the typical Mobil Mart self-serves were still higher (by only a penny)
    than the MA ones.  The cheap no name stations pulled a sleazy though,
    by *lowering* their prices *after* MA gas stations had to raise theirs,
    knowing that many angry MA residents would waste a bucks worth of gas
    to save a dime and spite the Duke......  HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
    
    Again, sorry, back to the All Star Game talk.....  :-)
    
    Hawk

	You guys are incredible, a moderator has asked that the discussion 
moved to an apropriate notes file but nobody listens.  

	Other times things a deleted by a moderator only to be put back 
later.  


	Use notes the way they were intended!!  Not as 'your' place to go and
talk about what ever you want and disreagrd the rules, policies, and guidlines
already in place and working in most other notes conferences.

mc

I'm probably the worst offender in here when it comes to junk noting,
but I'll stand by the moderators on this one.

See, a lot of people view the moderator as big brother or something.
In a sense, that's true, in that a moderator has a lot of power that
can be misused.

However, the responsibilities of the moderator(s) are commensurate
with the power they possess.  If someone has a mondo gripe and goes
to personnel, and personnel looks at the conference and finds it
lacking, then the moderator is ultimately responsible.
(View personnel as Fay Vincent...that might give a proper viewpoint)

So, while we do a lot of junk noting in here, the mods are really
not all that bad.  While some of their views may not be consistent
with my own, and while they committee of moderators may have varying
opinions, they are still the moderators, and there word has to be 
followed.

Moderating is not an easy job.  Especially in this conference.
They give us a lot of latitude in reality, more than any other
conference I've seen...

Finally, look at it this way:  no moderators, no conference.

JMHO,
'saw

    re .177
    
    Bob, Meridith has been shot, and he's also been beating by a redneck
    sherriff or two.
    
    I hope maybe one bump on the head too many can explain his behavior.
    
    Otherwise .....

    re .186
    
    Tex, let's face it. The All-Star game was booooooring. It stunk !!
    
    Taling politics is much more stimulating for the mind ....

    Maybe so, Doc, but it doesn't belong in here.

    This note has been writelocked.  If anyone really wants to discuss the
    1990 All Star game, send me mail and I'll unlock it.