Conference 7.286::sports_90

/Don....

Now that you brought the subject up, I've got to get this off my
chest...

The Paez fight was the *biggest* **Rimjob(tm)** I have ever seen.
Peaz did squat all fight (excepting the second round knockdown which
didn't seem to affect Dorsey) and how he won that fight I'll never
know.  

It was the most attrocious display of judging I have ever seen.  I have
to take my hat off to Dorsey, since if I had just been rimmed(tm) like
he was, I probably wouldn't have called the judges every name in the
book, regardless of whether or not I was suspended.

That decision just plain *sucked*.  Half the time Paez couldn't even
get his hands up.

Boxing's fixed.  Gotta be...

Chainsaw

    I have to go back to the summer olympics for a more blatantly fixed
    decision than yesterday's robbery.  I've got to give Dorsey a lot of
    credit also for his post fight composure (or was he so stunned he had
    no reaction).  What I wanted to see was him run over and send Paez
    flying onto the concrete from his victory handstand on the ropes. 
    
    Showboating gets my goat!  When he gave Dorsey the pelvic thrust at the
    beginning of the 8th, I was hoping Dorsey might have responded with a
    low blow.  Hey, he flaunted is nads, so knock 'em off.  Instead, Dorsey
    showed class and got robbed.  It's all a ? of $$$.
    
    	--dan'l 
    

It really p*sses me off.

I watched the entire fight, and the number of punches that Dorsey
threw (which connected) as compared to those of Paez was unbelievable.

The announcers, all the way throught, figured Dorsey would win.  It was
also unfortunate that the announcers weren't more vocal about the
disgraceful decision.  

(It's a tangent, but there have been a few editorials lately on the 
squeemishness of TV announcers to grab an issue and really look into
it.)

Boxing...it figures!

Chainsaw

	Promoters are trying to put together a Mike Tyson / Hulk Hogan match.

Phooee!

	At least G.L.O.W. is for REAL!!!!!
Mike JN

Mike JN

(Great note on the trail vis-a-vis the Minx etc!!!!)

But, 

What I heard was that Vince McMahon, head honcho of the WWF, wanted
Hulk Hogan and Macho Man Savage to square off in the squared circle
with Mike Tyson as the REF(tm).

Haven't heard more than rumors though....

Chainsaw

PS Dorsey was Rimmed(tm)!

    re .5:
    
    >	What I heard was that Vince McMahon, head honcho of the WWF, wanted
    >   Hulk Hogan and Macho Man Savage to square off in the squared circle
    >   with Mike Tyson as the REF(tm).
    
    This match has been signed and will take place on NBC TV on Friday,
    February 23rd.
    
    
    py

    
       Well fellow noters, Iron Mike will attempt to work up a
    sweat this Saturday night against James "Buster" (Phil Collins? :^>)
    Douglas.
       Let's hear some predictions as to round & time of K.O.
    
    Here's mine.
    Tyson 1:47 of the 2nd round
                
    Bull
    

    
    By the way, I won't be back until Wed the 14th, so if someone
    else wants to figure out who had the closest guess, go ahead.
    
    Bull
    

The Macho Man has finally admited they he will not try to duck a fight
Hector-Chavez.  What a mistake!!  I am not a expert of boxing but my
opinion is the Hector-Chavez is the best boxer pound for pound in the
world.  Say what you want about Camacho, he is one hell of a talented
fighter.
    
Greg                        

    	If Camacho is going to fight Chavez, UnMacho would be wise to
    spend some of the money made in this last fight on a hefty life
    insurance policy.
    
    				/Don

    2:52 of the 1st round.
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

I'm still pissed about the Paez fight!

Mike Tyson is too cool.  Did anyone happen to see the Roy Firestone
show on ESPN last night, with the Fresh Prince?  What a cool show....

Chainsaw

    Mike will let this sucker hang around awhile - 1:02 of the 4th.
    
    NAZZ

    
    
    				2:18 into the 5th.
    
    

    Going WAY out on a limb, just because nobody else said it.  Unanimous
    decision.  Goes the distance.
    
    The Wizard

    Douglas by TKO in the sixth.

    Tyson 1:03 of 3rd.
    
    
    Tom

    
    
    
    Douglas saved by the bell in the first, then he'll fall in the second.

    
    Last night, Calvin Grove was TKO'd by Bernard Taylor in the 11th
    in Binghamton, NY.
    
    The Paez-Dorsey fight was a sham.  An embarassment for NBC.  Paez
    is supposedly considering moving up in weight.
    
    Buster Douglas will be dogmeat for Tyson.
    
    Steve

    Tyson at 1:09 of the second round.
    
    
    py

    Tyson at 2:47 of the 1st.  I dont think I would want to see him
    fight Foreman.  I think Forman while being in decent shape would
    be nothing for Tyson, after all it was Forman who was quoted as
    saying Cooney hits as hard as anyone and Larry Holmes was quoted
    as saying Cooney slaps Tyson slams.  I am not even sure about Holyfeld.
    
    I havnt really seen him fight since his Olympic fights.  He looked
    very impressive but so did Tyrell Biggs.
    
    
    
    
    

	Having just seen the fight, it seemed one of the weirdest I've seen.
The Japapnese crowd was quiet. Tyson seemd as if he was asleep, or on drugs.
Not accusing him, or making an excuse, but, it didn't look like Tyson out there.
        His corner was treating him like a baby, and he seemed to be sulking
like one, too.

	Very strange...

Jim M

       I just saw it too! Had to come in here to see if maybe I was
    having a flashback or something. What was amazing was that the 2
    Japanese judges had Tyson ahead and even. I gave Mike about 2-3
    rounds. The 8th was a 10-8 though.
                                            Denny

    Tyson did indeed seem asleep as he fought, as was most of the crowd.
    Other than the uppercut that floor Douglas, Tyson  showed little that
    he had any life in him. He fought the entire fight with no head weaving
    and no aggresion what so ever. During the fight the point was brought out
    about whether not having his trainer from early in his career had hurt
    him. He did seem so uninvolved. According to the punch stat he threw
    only something like 24 punches through 7 rounds. After the fight I
    thought I saw him crying like a baby. I guesse the he was human after
    all.
    
    
                                                        Stan
    

    Knowing Tyson (like I don't), he was probably doing that Geisha
    thang until the wee hours of the night...
    
    He simply looked past 'ole Buster and got beat.
    
    Buster put it best:  "You saw, I knocked him on his @ss right over
    their!"
    
    Cb

    RE: .28 (Big boys don't cry)
    
    Evander Hollyfeild would have probably liked to have killed tyson
    after the fight.  I think he stood to lose mucho bucks because Tyson
    went down.  I thought he was going to cry after the fight!
    
    Cb

    You knew it had to happen.  Now they want to declare the title vacant or
    the fight a no decision because the ref gave Douglas a long count when he
    was knocked down.  Regardless of what the count, he would have been up. 
    Fighters are trained to wait until the 5-7 count and then get on their
    feet.  Douglas knew what was going on.  At the count of 3 hwe as
    pounding is fist on the canvas in frustration at letting himself get
    bonked.  At 5-7 when Tyson was knocked down, he was too worried about
    his mouthpiece...he was clueless.
    
    And even if it was the ref's mistake, why penalize the fighter.  When
    refs make mistakes in other sports, they don't declare the outcome
    bogus.  It's questioned, but it goes in the books.
    
    Douglas won in everyone's mind except those who are getting $$$ under
    the table.  Why do I love this sport so much when it's obviously such 
    a fix?
    
    	--dan'l
    
    
    

	Well since the WBA and WBC are concubines of Don King anything
is possible, but Buster Douglas definitely *WON* this fight.  I never
believed that I would see the day when Tyson would quit in a fight.  I
don't mean after the KO either.  Mike would've went down in the 9th
round if it weren't for the ropes holding him up.  No head movement, no
body punches, no combination punches, it's good to see that Don King's
record of ruining great talent remains spotless.  I thought it amusing to
see his smiling visage slithering in the Douglas corner after the fight.
George (fortysomething...age and waist) Foreman is now out of the 
heavyweight picture.  I hope.

No one has mentioned that the judges had the fight pretty *even*.

I almost puked when I heard that.  What kind of fix was going on here.

Tyson deserved to lose, considering the way he fought.  I think not
having Rooney hurt him.

I did feel that the count on Douglas was long, and I felt that Tyson
was up on 9 himself (but was out of it...TKO, not KO in my opinion)

What an upset.  To me, it was the greatest upset in boxing history.
I cannot think of one greater....

Glad HBO carried this live.

BTW, I do not think Tyson is through.  I think Tyson has grit, and will
come back and destroy whoever stands in his way.  Buster, in my mind,
is not a champ who will last.  He had a way to beat Tyson, but I would
have like to have seen the outcome had Tyson fought like the early
Tyson, not like the Tyson who thought himself invincible...


Chainsaw

    
    Is there any sports fan out there that disagrees with either of the 
    following 2 statements:
    
    1) Buster Douglas is the heavyweight champ.
    
    2) Don King, the WBA, and the WBC are all crooks.
    
    -John

    >  Douglas by TKO in the sixth
    
    Damn it.  Had it gone 1:23 longer I would have been correct.  8^(
    
    Good call.
    
    The Wizard

    	Frank, the American judge had Douglas ahead 87-81 or something
    like that.  One Japanese judge had Tyson with a slight lead and
    the other one had it even.  Don't know what the hail they was watchin'
    but it sure wasn't the same thing I saw.  This has to hurt Tyson's
    place in boxing history, unless he can: A) Come back.  B) Beat
    some real competition somewhere down the line.
    
    				/Don

Yeah, /Don, I agree.

When I heard the judges scores, I was shocked.  I wonder if ACC Chris
has anything to do with boxing judges ;^)

Seriously, it's inconceivable to me, which fight they were watching.
Tyson never through a real combination, he never moved his head,
and when Buster would wrap him up, he just stayed there instead of
trying to get free and working the body.

Douglas is, IMO, the Champ.  I think the referee was a poor ref, but
Douglas did win.  I'm not sure if Douglas will be the champ for long.
I see his victory as an inspired win, but I don't see a dynasty here.

Tyson, if he gets his act together, and if he gets his old trainer (Rooney)
back, then he could easily become Champ again.  Ali did it three times,
and is considered the Greatest.  Who's to say Tyson can't do it.

As Vince Lombardi said

	"The Glory is not in never falling, but in rising 
	 every time you fall..."

Chainsaw

	This should probably go in the joke note, but here's a few
quotes from yesterday's press conference in Tokyo.

	"All I want is fair play to prevail.  Fair play!"

			-Don King

	"Our obligation is to fight for justice."

			-Jose Sulaiman

		HAHAHAHAHAHAHA (Tm)

    > Don King should......start dating Yvanna Trump.
    
    Chainsaw, I was thinking the exact same thing, only I was thinking that
    YOU should start dating Ms. Trump!  Imagine all those brand new
    razor-sharp Stihls you can have laying around!  And all those Kelly
    Bundyesque vixens you can have (hidden) on the side!  And that bar that
    you could buy your ol' buddy and still wrasslin' partner in SPORTS!
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk

    /Don, you mean Don King didn't say anything about Tyson's testicles 
    being hit in this fight?  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    Don King is Tyson's poison. That was a LAMO performance by Rusty
    Iron Mike. He deserved to lose. Buster deserves all the credit.
                                                              
    
    
    
    Steve

	You know, maybe if Mike Tyson is real good Jake "The Snake"
Roberts will give him Ted "The Million Dollar Man" Dibiase's diamond
belt when he referees the match between "The Macho Man" Randy Savage and
Hulk Hogan.  That way he can legimitately lay claim to some kind of belt.
I used to have a world of respect for this young man.  I enjoyed watching
his earlier fights on ESPN and HBO, but if he doesn't break with King
after this fiasco, I will lose all respect for him, as both a fighter and
a man.                                                             

				/Don

King and Tyson cain whine all they like, but, a local station (ch 
7) timed the Tyson count and had it at 13.9 seconds with a 3.6 
second span between 1 and 2.

Who is this WBO chanp anyway? Heard Foreman was going to get him.

What's the WWF ruling on this?

"I'm convinced that the wrestling is real and the rest of the 
world is fixed."
                  Frank Deford

    Professional boxing is far less honest than professional wrestling.
    
    John

    It looked (to me) like Buster was just sitting on the count as long as
    he had to to clear his head.  I think if the count were three shorter,
    he would have still been up at nine.
    
    If he isn't named Champ, boxing will be exposed as a travisty. 
    
    You have to live with some bad calls sometimes.
    
    Chip

    	Well, here's my opinion (for what it's worth):
    
    	Tyson was told to take a dive. Why?
    
    		1. Heavyweight ranks in sad shape.
    		2. No one wants to fight Tyson.
    		3. Mike has looked invincible.
    
    	Now that things have have changed, there'll be people
    	coming out of the woodwork to fight Douglas, who'll
    	probably lose. Tyson will have to wait around, work
    	back to a title fight, and then pulverize whoever is
    	champ.
    
    	No, I don't follow boxing, but it seems very logical
    	to me.
    
    	Scott
    

Don't be so quick to bash Tyson, though.

Mike had a *bad* night, and he wasn't doing what he was supposed to.
I definitely think that losing Rooney as his trainer (can someone supply
the details of that?) hurt him.

But the man can punch, and a 37-1 record is not that shabby.

Iron Mike will come back, and whup all comers, I'll bet...


Chainsaw

PS  Don King licked the electrical socket one too many times...

    				Tyson		Douglas
    
    Total punches		214		441
    Punches connected		101		230
    Pct. connected		47		42
    Jabs thrown			76		243
    Jabs connected		23		128
    Pct. connected		30 		53
    Power Punches thrown	138		198
    Power connected		78		102
    Pct. connected		57		52
    Knockdowns			1		1
    
    Maybe they should get rid of judges and just go by stats from now on. 
    That's the true story.  Yeah, that's it.  Attach a microvax to each
    fighter and let him drag it around the ring!
    
    	--dan'l

    Read in the Herald Tribune today that Tyson confided in someone that he
    was hoping to get it over with quickly so he could catch a plane home
    yesterday without having to wait till today.
    
    Guess he missed it, the jerk.
    
    He better watch it.  If he starts to lose a few, Robin Givens may give
    him another shot.
    
    rick

    	Strangely enough, Douglas' manager grabbed the WBC belt from
    Suliman. The WBA still has their's. 
    
    	The problem is that Don King controls just about 40% of the
    boxing in the world, Bob Arum controls 35% and Donald Trump 5%.
    The other 15% is unimportant in terms of money. 
    
    	The fight tapes were reviewed and they clearly show the time
    keeper with 2 fingers in the air at the start of the referee's count.
    That indicates that the count was actually only 1 second off. That
    puts Douglas on his feet at the count of 9. Round ends.....
    
    	Mike Tyson took Douglas lightly. This was a setup fight for
    Evander Holyfield and MULTI-MILLIONS. 
    
    	The big problem is whether Tyson can psychologically rebound
    to the state of mind that he is indestructible. He's not a mental
    giant and is/has been manipiable. The other problem that faces Tyson
    is that he is not indestructible to other fighters, With that mystique
    gone, almost any fighter feels he can do what Douglas did, and they
    probably can. Tyson will have to train hard for evry fight he has
    from here on out......
    
    	Buster Douglas should take the WBC and WBA to court and sue
    for the title if they deny him. The best thing that could happen
    is to sue for $100 Billion and destroy them both.
    
    Ken

Let's talk about Buster...

The man fights the fight of his career, and dispute or not, KOs 
Iron Mike.

Question:  will he be able to defend his championship against Hollifield,
	   or will he lapse back into the apparent mediocrity from whence
	   he came?  

	   If Iron MIke gets a rematch, will Buster be up to it?


Inquiring minds don't really GAS....
Chainsaw

    No arguments on yer fight analysis, MrT, but I *must* object to that
    "convicted felon" line.  That's mine partner, reserved for
    you-know-who.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

	I'm not the worlds biggest boxing fan and crap likes this is 
why!  You have one of the best things to happen to boxing in a long time 
and now this.  If they were smart they wouldn't even have to review the tapes
just hand Buster the titles. If they have ANY BRAINS WHAT-SO-EVER they
will give him the title after reviewing the tapes.   If they are the
money grabing scum in a crooked sport like many believe they will call
the title 'vacant' and have a rematch so they can all can line there 
pockets some more.  We will see what happens but I wouldn't be surprised 
if they show just how crooked and money hungry they are!  

Mc

    I heard the best explanation for the loss of Mike Tyson on a local
    TV station. He was "uninspired". 'Nuff said.
    			Rich
    

    
    Buster Douglas fought a masterful fight. He truly deserves to be
    heavyweight champion, and my hat's off to the IBF for saying so.
    Regardless of how the sanctioning business ends up, Tyson's image
    has been tarnished, and if the pimps have their way, it will only
    get worse for him.  What Don King has done to Tyson and boxing is
    a crime, but hey, the shoe fits.
    
    Steve

    Buster had a reason for winning the fight.  His mother just passed
    away, trouble at home, etc..  He had the "Eye of the Tiger", Tyson
    had nothing.  It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the
    size of the fight in the dog.  You have to beat the champ to be
    the champ.  Good one for Buster.  At least he will make it into
    the record books before someone knocks his block off.

    
    It's all so obvious:
    
    - Tyson came in flat and indifferent
    
    - Busta, for alot of reasons, had the fight of his life
    
    - Tyson needs Rooney
    
    - Tyson needs to rid himself of the vulture King
    
    At least it has made boxing interesting again.  Friday, there were no
    challengers, now everyone in the division is.  I think this whole count
    controversy is just to force a rematch.   Johnson should take the
    rematch anyway since 1) it would be his biggest money fight and 2) he
    could get beat by anybody at anytime.  Trying to convince a boxer of #2
    is impossible so anything could happen.
    
    -John

    Tex Corbett is right, our friend the Bibe has got to be putting
    in a special request to the Big Boxing Comission in The Sky right
    now, to see if Arum and King can be permanantly stripped of their
    senses ....
    
    I read a interesting article a few years ago in Ring magazine. It
    said that once upon a time (before 1964), there were boxing comissions,
    but it didn't matter. The people decided the champion. Then the
    WBC decided to job Ali because of his name change, and it started
    the ball rolling downhill from there.
    
    I bring that up to say this : Why don't we all say screw the WBA,
    WBC, et al ????
    
    You know that Buster is the champ, and I know that he won. Simply
    put, just don't recognize Tyson as the champ. If any pay-per-view
    B.S. comes up with Tyson as a champ, DON'T BUY IT ! Watch "Married
    With Children" or something. Support Douglas instead.
    
    re Ken,
    
    Don't underestimate Tyson. And don't think that he's stupid. To
    say that he's "less than a mental giant" is to denigrate and
    underestimate the man. Forget the funny voice and lisp, Iron Mike
    is a hell of a student of the game. Mike went in Saturday
    overconfident, and untrained, and got knocked on his a** by a man
    who came in fired up, unafraid, and ready to fight the fight of
    his life.
    
    Tyson will be back, if he is still hungry. And I think that he is.
    
    DrM

>    
>    Don't underestimate Tyson. And don't think that he's stupid. To
>    say that he's "less than a mental giant" is to denigrate and
>    underestimate the man. Forget the funny voice and lisp, Iron Mike
>    is a hell of a student of the game. 

	I think alot of people have the misconceptions that Tyson is 
stupid.  From what Ive seen of him in interviews and read of him he
is not stupid, just not educated. Big difference.  Of course the longer
he stays with King the more I wonder...

mc

Buster is standing there after the fight, barely keeping his 
composure after Merchant asked about his mother (a stupid 
question) and the guy keeps pushing, even with his corner men 
pleading to "do it later".

Classless.

daryll

    Speaking of lawsuits, Hollyfield will sue if there is a rematch between
    Tyson and Buster.  Hollyfield is supposed to be the next heavyweight in
    line for a title bout.

>    I bring that up to say this : Why don't we all say screw the WBA,
>    WBC, et al ????

That's what Ray Leonard's been saying for years.  He's also said screw
Don King and Bob Arum.  Shame you guys didn't open your eyes up
years ago.

Dan

    Sorry Dan it isn't quite the sam ething. I hae been saying it for
    years. In any case Sugah Rim (tm) has been saying screw King and
    Arum, but with his farces, he's nothing more than an independent
    hybrid of the two.
    
    We need Ali to return ...

    Doc,
    
    Why do we need Muhammed "the fix is in" Ali to return?  He had one
    of the crookedest careers in the history of the fight game.  From
    his invisible knockout of Liston, to the numerous farces with the
    Chuck Wepner's of the world, to his orchestrated losing and regaining
    of the title from Leon Spinks, Ali was a living symbol of the cesspool
    boxing was swirling down.  He gave us some memorable fights, but
    he was crooked as they come.
    
    JD

    	JD, nice piece of fiction.  Where did you hear all this, in
    the Enquirer?
    
    				/Don

       The WBC has given the title to Douglas according to the radio
    this morning. 
                                     Denny

    
    Word from Douglas (at last hearing) was that there wouldn't be a
    rematch made with Tyson until after Douglas meets Holyfield.
    
    The intention of meeting the No. 1 contender in a first title defense
    is pretty admirable.  Buster Douglas, an American dream.
    
    Steve

I have a feeling it might be Buster Douglas, former champ...

Holyfield is out for blood. I think that Douglas fought beyond himself.

*NOT* to take anything away from Douglas, but I don't see him holding
this belt for long.

Chainsaw

    Why /Don,
    
    You blind?  Tell me that all of ALi's fights were on the up and
    up.  He did sucker a lot of folks into believing him.  PT Barnum
    would have been proud of ALi.  He made the fight game what it is
    today...
    
    JD

    Sarge,
    
    	Which ones weren't on the up and up?  I didn't know
    	you could fake broken jaws.....;^)
    
    Clay

    It all started with the Liston fight.
    
    His 'regaining the title' x number of times were set up (except
    the Frazier fights - they were legit).  In his waning days, Ali
    showed what kind of puppet he was.  He lost to Norton, to Shavers,
    turned boxing into a real sideshow act, and of course he
    roped-a-lotta-dopes into believing him and his act.
    
    JD

    Denny are you sure?  The reports I've heard said that 2 of the WBC
    officials agree that Douglas won the fight, but they weren't speaking
    officially.  The secretary of the WBC said he would resign if Douglas
    was not awarded the belt a the hearing later this month.

In the matter of a rematch, there MUST be an intervening fight BEFORE a 
rematch, according to the rules. Unless, of course, the decision was
"tainted", which is what Don King's hoping for. Since he doesn't own
Holyfield or Douglas, he gets nothing from their fight...

Jim M

    I am not going to pass judgement one way or another on whether this fight
    was legit or not,but one must admit that there is a lot more interest
    and ($?) in the previously somnolent heavyweight division than there was. 
    
    And maybe that's what King wanted. 

Not to start a rathole....

But, dammit, people wonder why I'd rather watch wrasslin!

I mean, when I watch the WWF I already know who's gonna win.  That means
that in addition to the folks sitting around the ring who work for the
WWF, I and millions of other fans know too.  Unlike boxing, where the
"judges" know who's gonna win, but we don't.

In wrasslin' when there's an upset, it's done with all the bravado and
angst of a soap opera.  You come away feeling like the BAD guy just stole
the heroine, but you know that GOOD will ride again to win the day.

In Boxing, when there's an upset or a fix, you feel like you've just
been raped (somewhat like playing one of ACC Chris' contests) because
you blindly assume that it is on the up and up.

It has taken the "fights" (track events?) of Sugar Rim(tm) to show me 
this.  The judges' scorecards on this past fight have confirmed it.


People don't wanna talk wrasslin in here.  I would put to you all that
we shouldn't discuss boxing either, because it's just as fixed, only
they don't tell you about it....

'Saw

    
    Don't forget Jimmy Young!
    
    Ali was a great fighter, nonetheless, second greatest heavyweight to
    Joe Louis in my opinion.  But he was given the benefit of the doubt
    many times, as most champions seem to get.  Nothing as ridiculous as,
    say, Leonard-Hearns, though.
    
    Leonard has lost the respect of the boxing community with his latest
    comeback, regardless of what the decisions might have been.  It hasn't
    just been the fixes, though.  The Hearns debacle and getting knocked
    down by an unskilled Donnie LaLonde have tarnished Ray's image as a 
    boxer, and I don't think anyone who saw those fights can dispute that.  
    He's fallen a long way.
    
    I don't think Ali is regarded that way, but with respect.  Sure it got
    ugly at the end, and it went on too long, but that's irrelevant.  I
    don't recall Ali ducking legitimate contenders for years on end.  And  
    correct me if I'm wrong, but Ali was stripped of his title originally 
    not because of his name change but for his refusal to represent the U.S. 
    government in Vietnam in a non-combat publicity position.  The best 
    years of Ali's career were taken away.  Considering black America's 
    role in the Vietnam War (no ratholes, please, this is personal opinion), 
    I can't blame him for what he did, even though it did rob him of years
    in his prime.  Ray Leonard cheated himself of his best years.
    
    Ali didn't humiliate fighters like Tyson has attempted to do.  He
    raised the art of boxing to a higher level in the heavyweight division.
    Tyson, in spite of his supposed study of the art, has brought nothing
    but sheer destructiveness to the ring.  The mask has now been ripped
    off, and Tyson's skills, not his power, are under question.  Tyson is
    not stupid, but he's been living out of control for years now, and I
    think it has caught up to him.  He apparently has not been
    concentrating on the development of his boxing skills as he should have
    been at this point in his career.  In my opinion, the defeat to Douglas 
    brings nothing but good to the sport, and in the long run probably
    nothing but good to Mike Tyson, if he learns from the experience.
    
    glenn
    

    
>    So, now we have a boxer who at this point anyway doesn't even NEED
>    to be fixed to maintain his unprecedented value and by sheer force
>    of larcenous habit they fix him anyway!
    
    So now you're saying what went on in the ring itself was fixed, T?  I
    didn't get that impression from your earlier notes.  For what it's
    worth, I'm not denying that fixes *inside the ring* have occurred, but
    this was an entirely improbable fight to fix.
    
    The only reason I follow boxing at this point (and not the WWF) is that
    occasionally two good fighters step in the ring, and regardless of the
    outcome, the fight itself is real.  I could care less what the judges
    or the commissioning bodies say.  I listened to this fight over the
    scrambled HBO picture only out of curiosity, because I wasn't going to
    take the initiative to go out and see such an obvious mismatch.  But
    why would Don King and company bother to fix a fight that few were
    watching in front of such an unenthused crowd halfway around the world?
    
    glenn

	JD, you say all Ali's fights were fixed except the Fraizer
ones.  How do you know this?  Also if anyone was in on a fix in the
Ali/Liston rematch it was Liston.  Let's not forget the first time
these two fought in Miami.  Ali pounded Liston until he couldn't answer
the bell.  How can you be so sure Liston would've won a rematch?  I
personally thought Ali beat Norton in their third fight in 1976, but
after that fight Ali should've retired.  But he did humiliate fighters.
Anyone remember when he fought Folyd Patterson?  He carried the fight
so he could totally embarass Patterson because Floyd had made a remark
about his name change.
    
    				/Don

    
    I strike the "humiliate" comment.  I was referring to *physical*
    humiliation, not the taunting crap which, I agree, I didn't like
    either.  I don't recall Ali as being into the physically abusive style 
    of boxing (beyond what is necessary to defeat the opponent) as
    demonstrated by Mike Tyson in the Tyrell Biggs fight.  I'm not going to
    be a hypocrite and say boxing is not about beating the other guy up,
    but there is a limit, and inside that limit, I think Ali was a
    compassionate fighter.  That was the only point I was trying to make
    per Ali's style and skills.
    
    glenn
     

Okay Glenn, I read ya now.  

Perhaps Ali didn't need to be as punishing as Tyson is because the
mental humiliation did a good job of psyching out the opponent.
Buster  did a good job of showing just how far being "psyched up"
can go...

Tyson is a punishing fighter...

Chainsaw  

    /Don,
    
    You  are right, perhaps the Frazier fights wer e fixed...
    
    Probably were.
    
    JD

>Personally, I think he need Rooney back...very badly.  And dump
>Buckwheat's brother Don King...

 Your right here Chainsaw!  He needs to get his haid back into the ring
and get rid of all these "Folks" hangin on!!!

Monty    

    re .91
    
    Slasher, funny you mention the Patterson fight. I was wathcing "Eyes
    On The Prize II" on PBS (I highly recommend it to all, it will be
    on Channel 44 tonight (NE area)), and last night's subject was Ali,
    and the controversy inspired by his name change.
    
    The Patterson fight was brought up, and to be fair to both sides,
    Patterson was seen as an "acceptable" champion by the white
    establishment. Patterson was quiet, humble, soft-spoken, ect. Ali,
    of course was the opposite of all of that, and represenatative of
    the new breed of young blacks who was changing the face of the country.
    Patterson was a devout Catholic who went out of his way NOT to call
    Ali by his name, but to constantly call him "Cassius Clay", until
    it became a grating insult. Combine that with the media playing
    up the religious angle, and the conservative white support for
    Patterson, and the result was fairly predictiable.
    
    Ali absolutely demolished Patterson, and indeed, he made it a
    calculated demolishion that was intended to send a symbolic message
    to the world, IMO.
    
    I say this to make no excuses for either man, but to provide some
    historical context.
    
    Ali-Patterson (as well as the more famous "What's My Name" Ali-Ernie
    Terrell fight) was MUCH more than a mere heavyweight title bout.
    
    DrM 

    	Jim Lampley was on Sports Look yesterday and said that Tyson
    had stalled signing a 100 million dollar contract with HBO for his
    fights.  Needless to say HBO is no longer making this offer to Mike.
    
    				/Don

    
    Ali was probably the most skilled heavyweight in history.  His
    shenanigans were designed to fill seats, something he learned from
    a wrestler named Gorgeous George.  To suggest he was simply a media
    creation is preposterous. He fought much too long however, and a
    number of "decisions," particularly vs. Jimmy Young, were unfair.
    
    Steve

    Ali punished the **** out of lots of boxers...ask George Foreman
    about their fight in Zaire. Ask Joe fraizer about the time he had
    to be hospitalised. In fact if you ask me a lot of Tyson's latter
    opponents took dives(afraid to be hurt)...maybe if they slugged
    it out a bit longer he might have been floored a lot earlier than
    this.
    
    As for Douglas...I can't see why he can't hold on to his title I
    give him a fair chance...but now people are predicting that Holly
    field will kill...probably the same people who predicted Tyson 
    would kill him!!!

I think Buster's fights were described as mediocre.  I think that given
the psych up (his mother's death) he fought beyond himself.

It will be interesting to see what happens.  My money is on Hollyfield...

'Saw

>    	JD, nice piece of fiction.  Where did you hear all this, in
>    the Enquirer?

Can't you tell /Don?  JD's been in cahoots with MrT, fiction-writer
extraordinaire.

Dan

>Perhaps Ali didn't need to be as punishing as Tyson is because the
>mental humiliation did a good job of psyching out the opponent.

Ali was one who recognized the mental conditioning of a fight as well as 
the physical conditioning.   By the time the opponent climbed into the ring,
chances are he was well aware that he was fighting a legend, and that 
would effect his ability withing the ring.  Ali's poetry and predictions, his
loud outrageousness, his political stands, they were all spun together
to win a mental battle with his opponent before the fight.

Ray Leonard realized this as well, and hasn't lost a mental pre-fight battle 
since the first Duran fight.  Sure, he's roundly criticized in here, but his
success is undeniable.

And likewise, Mike Tyson has formed a personna which is bound to
intimidate every single fighter who steps in the ring.  You can look into
the guys' eyes before the first round, as the ref tells them to come out 
fighting and see that Tyson's opponent is thinking more about survival
than winning any fight.

That stuff is intimidation in one form or another.  It's all part of the sport.

Dan

    
> Ray Leonard realized this as well, and hasn't lost a mental pre-fight battle 
> since the first Duran fight.  Sure, he's roundly criticized in here, but his
> success is undeniable.
    
    What?!  Maybe you can argue that he won the "mental pre-fight" with 
    Thomas Hearns, although I guess I missed it, but he sure as hell didn't 
    win the "post-mental pre-fight".
    
    (He psyched out Marvin Hagler good, though, no matter how you scored the
    fight.)
    
    glenn
    

    
    Sugar Rim- The fine art of slapping and running
    
    
    
    
    Steve

Glenn, the outcome of Leonard-Hearns 2 was irrelevant to my note.  I was
replying to the criticisms of the boxers for their supposed cruelty to each 
other before the fight.  A lot of that's just hype to sell the fight and lot of it
is the mental oneupmanship that few can play successfully.

Meanwhile, I found your comments on the Leonard-Lalonde fight way off
the mark.  Ray ended up knocking him out pretty brutally in the 9th round,
and Lalonde stayed out for a few minutes after.  I don't think the previous
knockdown causes much disrespect for Ray's skills.

Dan

    
    I thought you meant what you said, which was that Leonard, like Ali, 
    has been able to psyche his opponent out in every fight since the
    first battle with Duran.  I guess I missed the implied point on the  
    criticisms of pre-fight BS.
    
    LaLonde was and is a nobody.  There's no shame in being knocked down and
    getting back up to beat the hell out of a guy, but that's not the case
    with a LaLonde.  Face it, Dan, Ray hasn't been sharp for a while now.
    I was once a fan of Leonard, had no problem with his snookering of
    Hagler, but no true fan of boxing can be happy with nonsense of the
    type that emanated from the Hearns bout.  I'd just had enough, that's
    all.  In my book, he doesn't approach Ali's stature as a sportsman. 
    I sense that Leonard himself is no longer even happy with himself or 
    his place in boxing history, or at least that's the way it appeared 
    after he sullenly walked through a complacent Duran.  The better 
    memories of Ray Leonard are being partially replaced with the uglier
    ones of the past few years, and I think he realizes this.
    
    glenn
      

    RE: Ali and the rope-dope. 
    
    According to a Will Mcdonough column - Ali's handlers invented the
    rope-a-dope as a tactical weapon in the first Ali-Frazier fight.
    They felt that if Ali protected himself in the beginning of the
    fight that the combination of the hot humid weather and the number
    of punches Frazier would throw that he would tire quickly and Ali
    could open up and take him. 
    
    Appears to have worked. 
    
    I agree that Ali hyped that stuff much too much. The Mcdonough article
    also brings up some good points about that age old question about
    a fix in the Liston fight. As has been pointed out earlier about
    the Patterson fight, there was more to this one too. The powers
    that be thought (and Mcdonough appears to provide some evidence)
    that Liston was a "bully" (compares to Tyson) and they needed a
    champion they could manipulate.
    

    Rope-a-dope invented for the 1st Frazier fight?  I thought it was
    invented for the Foreman fight, no?  Either way, I thought it was 
    a very unsporting tactic.....

    Don King has reportedly dropped his protest of Saturday night's fight
    and is setting up a rematch for June 18th at MSG.  Holyfield will
    receive $3 million for fighting in an undercard match that night.
    
    If Douglas is "getting while the getting is good" - more power to him.
    
    -- FooBear

It was invented for the first foreman fight...

ALi's trainers noticed that forman threw all his punches from the
 hip and telgraphed most of them. They knew that ali would be able to avoid
most of the punches or block them with his forearms. Then he could flurry the
 last few  (15-20) seconds of the round and impress the judges.

Foreman blew his load by the 5th round and had nothing to give after that.

Nothing forced forman to punch away at ali. He could have just stood in the
center of the ring and the ref would have made ali come and fight. 

His trainers didn't catch on to ali's plan and it cost him...

BTW- anybody got a tape of the tyson douglas fight they want to lend me for
a few days. I don't have HBO so I missed it...


Metz

    RE.110
    
    The story I read didn't say anything about King dropping the protest.
    As was stated earlier there appears to be a "rule" (God knows they
    never followed them anyway) that a champion must fight another fighter
    before a rematch. The story did say that King felt his protest was
    "misinterpreted" by the media. King said Douglas should be declared
    champion and Tyson should get first shot at him. It appears that
    the only way that could happen is if some kind of protest is upheld.
    Two WBC officials (the Secretary and the official who was at the
    fight) have said they would resign if Douglas is not given the title.
    Only the slugs at the WBA are being silent. If I were Douglas I'ld
    keep my options open until after the 20th. Once declared champion
    I'ld tell Tyson to take a flying leap until after a fight with
    Holyfield. He deserves first shot. Donald Trump reported is offering
    the date (6/18) in Atlantic City for either a rematch or a
    Douglas/Holyfield fight.
    

    >LaLonde was and is a nobody.  There's no shame in being knocked down and
    >getting back up to beat the hell out of a guy, but that's not the case
    >with a LaLonde. 

Lalonde was the champion of some division.  I know it's not saying he 
deserved to be Time Man of the Year, but it does indicate some
accomplishment in the sport he made his occupation.  He wasn't the
chopped meat that you're implying.   

I thought it was an entertaining fight, and I thought the Hearns fight, 
despite the questionable outcome was very entertaining.  There were
two guys in the ring each putting in a real solid effort.  That's what
people want to see.

Ray Leonard's place in boxing history has been questioned ever since
he entered the sport and snubbed Don King and Bob Arum.  He missed
some good years to his eye injury, which forever will hurt him.  Before that
he showed a total willingness to tackle the best on their terms.  After
that he was cautious and openly cynical about the sport.  He flaunted
his talents over the Alphabet Soup organizations which "run" the sport,
and dictated who he'd fight and when.  

You can disrespect that, but you shouldn't disrespect his skills.

Dan

    Why am I entering this rathole????????  Oh well, here I go.
    
    Muhammad Ali was a consummate professional fighter.  He was the
    fight's best promoter himself.  He could mentally adapt to any
    opponent, then physically adapt in his training and in the ring.
    He altered styles to fit fighters, he could win in a decision or
    by a knockout, he had power, speed, and most improtant of all,
    defense (until his last few fights when he was well past his prime).
    
    The US government took away three of the potentially greatest years
    in his professional career when it punished him for upholding his
    religious beliefs.  Can you imagine the NBA banning Michael Jordan
    for the next three years if the became a Hari Krishna?  How good 
    would Michael be at 30?  That's what happened to Ali.
    
    I agree the that the Norton fights could have been all scored for
    Norton, as well as a couple of other fights (although I thought Ali
    beat Shavers).  When all is said and done, however, there can be no
    disputing that Muhammad Ali was the greatest heavyweight champion
    in the past 35 years.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Dan, I'm not taking the same stance that some have taken in here with
    regards to Leonard (never hit anybody in his life, slap and run, etc.)
    Like I said, I once had a lot of respect for Leonard's skills and his
    response to the boxing establishment.  But as T has pointed out, in his
    endearing way, Leonard has now learned to play the game himself.  I 
    don't understand why he's chosen to operate in his current manner.
    He promised to retire after the Hagler victory, and I said, okay, he's
    accomplished everything, I can understand that.  He finally took on and
    beat that last demon he'd avoided for so long.  Since then, he hasn't
    left much room for respect.  Sure, the fights (excepting Duran III) 
    have been entertaining, but only because Leonard has slipped.  I wish
    he'd retire, or short of that, step into the ring with Michael Nunn or
    somebody fresh so at least we see some new challenges, not this
    orchestrated oldies revival tour which is being conducted for nothing 
    except the money.
    
    I guess the best that I can say is that he hasn't earned the respect
    with me that Ali did.  There's no real crime in that.  It was very sad
    to see Ali go out the way he did, but Ray Leonard is in a position 
    where he doesn't have to make the same mistake.
    
    glenn
     

    The WBA and WBC have officially recognized Douglas as the
    undisputed Heavyweight Champion.

    "I always recognized Bustah Douglas as heavyweight champion o' the
    world."  - Don King, Feb. 13, 1990
    

> Lalonde was the champion of some division.  I know it's not saying he 
> deserved to be Time Man of the Year, but it does indicate some
> accomplishment in the sport he made his occupation.  He wasn't the
> chopped meat that you're implying.   

	Dan, counting the WBogusO there are 64 belts I believe.  Including
all the divisions you would be hard pressed to find 30 good or great boxers,
and Lalonde certainly wouldn't be one of those 30.

	Also HBO will rebroadcast the fight this Friday night at 9:30 so
anybody who wants to tape it for Metz take note.  8^)

				/Don

    HBO senses that friday night's showing will be it's all-time high in
    terms of percentage of viewers buying HBO that will be tuning in.  It's
    previous best was it's premier showing of Jaws in the early '80s which
    drew 7 out of 10 HBO subscribers.  If I had HBO, I'd purposely avoid
    watching it.  I wouldn't want to be a part of the "ego boost" for this
    form of "sports entertainment" that needs much more refinement to rival 
    the WWF........
    
    Hawk

       HBO is turning it into a 2 hour extravaganza!
                                 Denny

Lampley:  And Howard, what are your comments on this replay...

Cosell:   Jim, I have a plethora of comments...In this scene we
          see Iron Mike reach down to pick up his mouthpiece.  Note
	  the *glazed* eyes, note the swelling of the left eye.  Note
	  the dexterity with which he picks up the mouthpiece though...
	  Right *THERE*....now, he's trying to put it in his mouth.
  	  Note the disorientation of his oral cavity.....



Oh, I love it.  I'll bet some beer, some Jack Daniels, some chips,
and sit down and get nauseated...

Gimme the Ultimate Warrior and some REAL "fake" action....

    re JD and Ali's fixed fights.
    
    Sorry, my friend, but this is one guy I followed from the start.
    I saw him versus Liston twice, versus Patterson, Zora Foley, Cleveland
    Williams, Ernie Terrell, Henry Cooper, Brian London, Karl Mildenberg
    - all before he was stripped of his title. He fought often and fought
    the best the heavyweight division had to offer.
    
    He was a showboat in the ring but a showboat with incredible speed
    and talent. He dismantled Patterson because of reasons Dock explained.
    I found this justifiable given the times. He also wanted to do the
    same to Terrell but ole Ernie was in such a hurry to kiss the canvass
    there wasn't the time.
    
    I feel that Ali got a "Champ's" decision versus Jimmy Young and
    Ken Norton. The feeling then was that a challenger had to literally
    "take the belt away" by total domination. Neither Young nor Norton
    did this although I think they DID win on points.
    
    Ali took Spinks lightly. Ali showed the world that he was indeed
    the Greatest by dancing on his toes and jabbing for 15 rounds in
    the rematch.
    
    You may not have liked his politics or antics, but his skills are
    undeniable - The Greatest!
    
    Rich
    

    Rick,
    
    Never denied his talents.  I called him a great fighter.
    
    I also think he was the benefit of one of the best sell jobs ever
    in sports.  If our sales force sold things as well as Ali sold himself,
    DEC would  be a 3 trillion dollar company (not a jab at our fine
    sales force, BTW).
    
    Take away the TV persona, and analyze the s**t that went on around
    him.   He was a pawn and a puppet, and the ills of boxing can be
    traced right back to him.
    
    I bear no malice to Ali at all, I liked  his schtick.  He was a
    sideshow attraction - the WWF before Hulk Hogan.  
    
    JD

================================================================================
Note 157.0                          knock out                          2 replies
RAVEN1::HUNT                                           1 line  14-FEB-1990 03:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    MIKE Tyson "did he or didn't he"
================================================================================
Note 157.1                          knock out                             1 of 2
RAVEN1::HUNT                                         13 lines  14-FEB-1990 05:24
                            -< MR.DOUGLAS (CHAMP) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It seems to me that the referee in the ring should have total control
    of the fight, including the time. Basketball,football,baseball,and
    other American past time sports seems to agree with this statement.
    How many fights have be won or lost because of a second or two Mike ?
    A true champion would accept the loss as is,( ALI did ) and ask for a 
    rematch,which shouldn't be to hard to get since (I want all the money)
    King promotes both fighters.As for Mr.Douglas I take my hat off to
    you,not only did you surprise me and the rest of the world but I think
    you are still watching that 10th round over and over again.
    AND I DONT BLAME YOU CHAMP !!!!!!!
    MIKE H.
    
    
================================================================================
Note 157.2                          knock out                             2 of 2
SALEM::RIEU "We're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!"             5 lines  14-FEB-1990 08:23
                                    -< KO? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Nope. Douglas could have gotten up a couple counts earlier if
    he'd known the REF's was count was off.
                        Denny
    
    

    JD, actually, he never would have gotten his shot versus Liston
    the first time if he "behaved" the way society wanted him to. 
    
    However, he chased after Liston, taunted him loudly in public, camped
    out in front of Liston's mansion with a bull horn....all carefully
    orchestrated to generate interest in this young kid, Cassius Clay
    from Louisville.
    
    If you recall, all of his fights were sellouts in the early years.
    The Garden used to pack them in for the closed circuit. The vast
    majority in America paid to see him get whupped. 
    
    He was a maverick, someone who actually had the gall to thump his
    chest and say he was the "Greatest".
    
    My feeling is that the sell job you refer to was Ali selling himself
    because that was the only way he could get a shot at the championship
    at that time. The sales job went so well and he felt so comfortable
    with it that it remained part of personna forever.
    
    Ali put fun back into the heavyweight division. Heck, Patterson
    was a good fighter but had no luster. Liston was a brooding quiet
    mountain of a man who rarely spoke. Before them we had Ingemar Johanson
    who couldn't even speak English.
    
    Ali's fights were a tru "event". You either hated or loved the man.
    
    Cut through the theatrics, though, and you have the best of all
    time.
    
    Rich
    

    	That's telling him Rich!  If I remember correctly the Terrell
    fight had some farce controversy much like the Tyson/Douglas fight.
    Didn't Terrell accuse Ali of rubbing his eyes on the ring ropes
    causing him to be blinded?  Ernie's eyes were swollen shut by the
    constant barrage of Ali jabs, but old Ernie said it was because
    his eyes were rubbed on the rope.  I think Cosell even interviewed
    both of the fighters about the alleged action.
    
    				/Don

Rubbing his eyes on the ropes?  Geez, sounds an awful lot like
the WWF to me...

I'll tell ya!

    Yeah, /Don, I remember the Terrell fight. Big Ernie looked like
    a fool with his psuedo Patterson peek-a-boo style. Everytime he
    parted his gloves to see what Ali was up to he was met by 5 or 6
    rat-a-tat jabs that turned the tissue around his eyes to hamburger.
    
    The feeling was that Terrells corner, in trying to ease the swelling,
    put a solution around the eyes that irritated them. Ernie accused
    Ali of having some foreign substance on his gloves, of rubbing his
    eyes on the ropes during clinches in Ali's corner, etc. By the 6th
    round (I think) Ernie was a pitiful specimen, blinded by sore eyes,
    humiliation and the realization that the man before him, Ali, was
    the most fearsome opponent he had ever confronted.
    
    Rich
    

    Considering the last "Chumpionship" fight in Japan and the bullshit
    after it. I rank "Pro" boxing up there with "pro" wrestling.
    
               REK

    I watched the replay on HBO last Friday night.  I'm not much of
    a boxing fan but I have the following comments:
    
    1.  In no way, shape or form was that a long count in the 8th round.
    The referee started counting as soon as Douglas hit the canvas.
    
    2.  Douglas didn't look all that out of it, though I'm sure having
    the time between rounds really helped him a lot.
    
    3.  Tyson was out on his feet from that uppercut and I don't know
    how he stood up for 3 more punches.
    
    John

    RE: HBO reshowing and post fight show.
    
    Tyson:  Thats totally ludicrous and an insult on the behalf of my 
            intelligence...
    
    Way to wow 'em Mike!
    
    Chip

    re .130
    
    Ya John, I saw a tape of it after having read all the rubbish:
    
    1.  I agree all the way:  As soon as Buster's bum hit the deck, the
        timekeepers finger was in the air.
    
    2.  Buster was by no means "waiting on one knee" as I read in here - he
        had to struggle to get up before 10.  I am confused on this one: The
        clock was shown to us with 0:08 left for the last time in the 8th.
        Right after that, say with 0:06 left Tyson bopped Buster with that
        uppercut.  Then at least 10 seconds went by and THEN the bell rang!
        Can the round not end during the count when someone is down????
        
    3.  Interesting that you say that the uppercut finished Tyson.  I think
        that he was already out of it at the end of the 9th!!  He looked
        completely spaced out and that eye was closed.
    
    rick     
    
        

    re .132:
    
    >    Can the round not end during the count when someone is down????
    
    I don't think that a fighter can be "saved by the bell" except at the
    end of the last round.         
    
    
    py

	I've been told that in a Championship fight, a fighter cannot be saved
by the bell. When the round ends, the count still continues, and the fighter
must be on his feet and ready to proceed at the count of ten. I don't know if
this is `only' Championship fights, or what. Anybody actually have the rules?

Mike JN

    Maurice Blocker won a unanimous decision over geriatric Saoul Mamby
    Friday.  Samby fought a tough, hard fight, but Blocker just had
    too much speed and reach.
    
    RE -.1
    
    The rules for any fight are first dictated by the sanctioning body
    and the contractual agreement, i.e. they're variable.  For Tyson's
    "championship" fights the rule concerning being saved by the bell
    is for the last round only, and usually, no 3 knockdown rule in
    effect. For the Douglas fight however, the rules were "modified" to 
    incorporate the 3-knockdown rule. 
    
    
    

    
    The rules vary, depending on where the fight is held.
    
    Larry Merchant is a total @sshole! That jerk kept trying to put words
    in Tyson's mouth, i.e. make excuses. Tyson had the class to not let him
    get away with it. He repeatedly denied Merchant's BS excuses and just
    kept saying that he lost fair and square and wants a rematch. Tyson
    handled himself very well. You know he wanted to reach over and slap
    that jerk. If Tyson is to get the title back he has to get a trainer, 
    be it his old trainer or someone new. He has to get rid of all of his
    old street gang hangers-on. It would also be in his best interest to
    get rid of Don King, if at all possible.
    
    Speaking of that idiot King, did anyone else see where he is trying to
    take credit for Douglas becoming champ? He claims Douglas is the champ
    only because he gave him the chance and didn't give up on him etc. It
    was real sad.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    I think the official ruling is:
    
    "A contender (pronounced "Kun-ten-daa") can only be saved by the bell if 
    he or she can make more money in a rematch than the said champ.  Whereas 
    the current champ can use the bell to his or her advantage contigent on if
    Don "HAIRSPRAY II" King is actually their promoter.  Matches where there 
    is little money to be made on the fight and/or post fight hoopla, both 
    boxers will be counted out quickly and the title will be given to Robin
    Givens."1
    
    1."Boxers guide to successful promoting and oogals of money" King, King, 
    Givens, and Clancy. 
    (WWF Press, Chap. 14. pg 84, hut hut hike, 1956)

    Yeah, Hoot, I caught a glimpse of King saying something about him
    making Douglas and how Douglas is showing disrespect for not
    acknowledging what he supposedly did for him!  "Only in America!"
    And, if I hear King say that phrase 1 more time, I'll puke......
    
    That fight yesterday where the Mexican kid beat the Champ, DeLuca, kind
    of had me pissed.  I hate when a fighter, who clearly is having the
    upper hand in the bout, starts taunting the other guy and especially
    that smirk he had throughout the later rounds.  I was hoping for DeLuca
    to wipe that smirk off him till he woke up in the hospital.......
    
    Hawk

Hoot,

I agree with ya.

Love the line that Dundee used when they were talking about the 
Tyson corner men:

"That abortion they were using on his face"

Ha!

    Michael Carbajal was the "Mexican kid" I was referring to a few replies
    back who won the fight shown yesterday afternoon.

>"Only in America!"
>And, if I hear King say that phrase 1 more time, I'll puke......
    
    Which was followed by Bob Costas saying something to the affect of,
    "Another civics lesson from Don King."
    
    Killed me.
    
    	--dan'l

    RE: .142
    
    The interview I heard was King on the "Bill_of_Rights"(tm).
    
    Isn't he a convicted felon for Manslaughter???
    
    He's pretty funny for a killer!
    
    Chip

    
    Yes. King did time in the Ohio prison system in the Mansfield
    Reformatory. IMHO, there is something real fishy as to how King
    got into big time fight promotion. His first fight was the Ali-
    Wepner fiasco in Cleveland. Noone had heard of him before that.
    I have always wondered if Ali owed someone a big favor. Then all
    of a sudden this unknown, Don King, is the Vince McMahon of boxing,
    the heavyweight division in particular.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Very interesting scenerio, Hoot.  Hmmmmmmmmm.........

    Right HOOT, and the Ali fans see no connection when I say Ali was
    big into the ills of fighting.  Funny, Don King is regarded as a
    slimeball by everyone, except in his dealing with Ali - what, does
    he turn his slime on and off like a faucet?
    
    King is sickening...
    
    Sarge

    re .144
    
    then...  I heard the manslaughter charge was the result of a "plea-
    bargain".  I also heard the witnesses decided against testifying 
    for the prosecution...   Wild rumor or something for Morey Povich
    to pursue...
    
    Chip

    
    Don't twist the facts, JD.  I believe your statement was that all of
    Ali's fights were fixed-- except the Frazier fights.  Ali fans tried to
    give him credit for his talents and his impact on the sport (and the
    world).  No one's claiming he was a saint, but you immediately
    exaggerated Ali's role in boxing's long-running maladies, and of
    course you weren't going to be met with unanimous agreement.  Was
    someone in here trying to absolve Ali of his relations with King?
    
    My understanding of King's emergence was that numerous blacks involved
    in boxing, most prominently Ali, were appalled that a sport dominated 
    by blacks was still being controlled predominately by white (and yes,
    crooked) promoters and managers.  I have no idea why King was the man 
    nominated to right that situation.  Apparently Ali took a liking to him.  
    The irony of the situation is that he's gone on to rip off numerous 
    fighters and has help ruin the sport's reputation, mainly to the
    disadvantage of the black majority in the fight ranks.
    
    Go ask Larry Holmes he thinks of Don King.  (Or for that matter, George
    Foreman, Marvin Hagler, Ray Leonard, Buster Douglas, etc.)
    
    glenn

    re .148
    
    Good note. I think Ali was on the right track with the wrong guy.
    As to why Ali and King had a minimum of friction, well Ali had Herbert
    Muhammad as a manager, and he deserves a lot of credit for protecting
    Ali from the Mob, and from King's sharp hooks ...
    
    DrM

    T, be for real. I know you want to stir things up, but at least
    show some sense of class (a tall order, I know).
    
    King accidently killed a man in a fight. From what I remember (somebody
    can correct me), King hit the guy with his fist, the guy cracked
    his head on the pavement and died. 
    
    Also, the other guy was armed (a razor), and according to what I
    heard, King probably should have beaten the rap (self-defense), except that
    King was the 'numbers king' of Cleveland, and the police didn't want
    to blow the chance to stick him behind bars, be the charge justifed or
    not, since they could never get him for the numbers racket.
    
    DrM

    
    T is out in left field again with most of the details, but there is one
    glimmer of truth in his note:  Don King has avoided heavy criticism in
    the media for years and years.  For the longest time the media bought 
    the "Only in America" schtick and actually portrayed King as a crazy,
    lovable entrepreneurial type.  It's funny that this one incident with
    Buster Douglas, which was relatively minor considering that it fits
    right in with boxing's general image, has done to King's reputation 
    what the long list of victimized boxers, the state boxing commissions, 
    the IRS, and law enforcement officials (to name a few) couldn't do.
    If Douglas' manager goes through with his snubbing of King and takes on
    Holyfield, it could set the ball rolling on King's demise.
    
    glenn
       

    Word now is that Douglas will fight Holyfield in September, 1990.  The
    Douglas/Tyson rematch won't be until February, 1991.  Douglas wants his
    next fight to be in Las Vegas, but we'll have to wait and see what
    Trump has to say.

    Does anyone have a tape of either the live Tyson vs. Douglas fight
    or the HBO replay last Friday night?  I had VCR/cable box problems
    both times and really want to see the fight for myself.  I'd do
    just about anything to get my hands on a tape.  Send me mail...please!
    
    John

    	It didn't take Buster Douglas long.  This Friday night he's
    a special referee in a WWF television match between Randy "Macho
    Man" Savage and Hulk Hogan.  I hope he's getting plenty of money
    for this.
    
    				/Don

    
    I read originally that Tyson was to be the referee for that sham.  Did
    the job come with the championship belts, or is Iron Mike no longer up
    to it?
    
    glenn
    

    
    Buster finally has had enough of this BS of the media harping about
    Tyson and not giving him any credit. He blew up at a press conference
    saying, "Tyson traded his boxing trunks in for a diaper and a bottle.
    Yeah, I'm upset about all of this crap. This time I won the fight, the
    next time I'm going to beat him up." 
    
    I don't blame him for finally blowing up. Frankly, most people would
    have lost it long before Buster said enough is enough.
    
                                                   hoot
    

    I'm no boxing buff but I like Buster!  Some actual true humility exists
    within him.  Guy's had a pretty rough stretch of luck - cain't help but
    root for him.  
    
    Go Buster!
    
    
    - WBA Chris
    
    BTW - Anybody see the interview with Buster's dad after the fight?
          Think it was on NBC.  He started gettin' all chocked up and
          everything talking about his son.  I almost shed a few manly
          tears myself.  When was the last time you were touched by
          a boxing event???  (A *long* time for me ...)

    A few manly tears ????
    
    Chris, you're a wuss - don't try to put a macho facade over it ...

    
    Buster Douglas, World Heavyweight Boxing champion, served as guest
    referee in the WWF Heavweight Wrestling "Main Event" between Hulk
    Hogan and Randy "Macho Man" Savage Friday night.  The bout ended with 
    Douglas KO'ing Savage after the Macho Man tried his hand at taunting the
    new Boxing king.
    
    Douglas then raised Hogan's arm in victory.  The spectacle was truly
    awesome!  The World Heavyweight Boxing champ and the World Heavyweight
    Wrestling champ in the same ring !
    
    Maybe Douglas' appearance will finally give Professional Wrestling
    the credibility that it so richly deserves !
    
    Steve
    

       Ahh, I think you got that backward Steve! Definitely a good night
    for boxing! Maybe people will take it seriously now. Remember when
    Sugar Rim was shilling for the WWF? 
                                             Denny

   >  Douglas then raised Hogan's arm in victory.  The spectacle was truly
   >  awesome!  The World Heavyweight Boxing champ and the World Heavyweight
   >  Wrestling champ in the same ring !
    
    Yeah, but the "Wrestling chump" is about as real as a $3 bill.
    (And I have my doubts about the Boxing champs, too.)
    
    Cowboy
    

    RE .165
    
    Ha ha ha, you got me rollin on that one.  :*) :*)
    
    Lee

"I know I'm going to get mail over this one, but I'm going on
records as saying I...like...Don...King..."

Don King is a man's man.  He would have to be to wear his hair like
that.  I mean, think of the scalp strength it must take to keep
each individual hair standing straight up.

I mean, I've tried it, and I'm not up to it.  I mean, I can do
a thousand push ups on my fingertips, five thousand sits ups
on a bed of broken glass, and a million squat thrusts on hot coals,
and yet I still cannot get my scalp as strong a Don King's.

Killer?  Hell, he's a brute!

Chainsaw

       Don King, Whatta guy!
                                            Denny

    Friggin' rollward, Chainsaw!
    
    I also like that Don King Smilie Face!  Better (tm) that one quick,
    Denny!
    
    Wish I had King's scalp!  =:^0
    
    Hawk

      After reading all 172 replies in this file, I really would like
    to get my hands on a copy not having seen any of the showings.
      I've been waiting for a friend of a friend to lend me his tape
    but it seems I'm near the end of a long line.
    
      Does anyone out there have a copy not doing anything for a couple
    of days? Any info on the video tape release date or when the fight
    replay will be on national tv?
    
                                                Thanks in advance,
    
                                                Steve Bo.
                                                275-2113
    
    

    re: .169 Don King's hair.
    
    I believe he has to do nothing much with his hair.  He mentioned
    that one day he woke up and it was like that.  He said it was a
    miracle.  So anyone who wants their hair like that, pray for a
    miracle.
    
    			dennis
    

So there I was, and I got up and my hair was like standing straight
up!  Like my scalp wasn't even straining.  Sphincter was loose,
head didn't hurt, it was a Miracle

I looked over on the wall, and there was the Virgin Mary crying
tears of blood on my wall.  Then, nexted thing you know, my toaster
started to talk to me.

And it told me to come into sports today and to spread the Good Word,
and that all who believe will get a rake off on their income tax.

I'm quiting my job, I'm taking on the name of Habeeb O'Reilly, and
I'm gonna preach....

You heard it here first...
Rev. O'Reilly (aka Chainsaw)

    Rev. O'Reilly, I hope when you go out to preach to the world, that
    you'll pass around some of those 'shrooms you bin ingestin'.......
    
    =8^0
    
    H'awk, a believer in miracles after a healthy dose of the 'shroom

    Frank, you're junk noting again....go back to therepy.
    
    JoJ
    
    PS - Don King is a D-Bag

    
    so are you JoJ with that p-name  ;^)
    
    mike

    Shaddup.

Greatest "things" in SPORTS
----------------------------

	Don King's Hair
	Joe Walton's Nose (and finger)
	Toni Eason's Dress
	Jimmy Hoffa's Grave
	Mike Tyson's Voice
	Wayne Gretzky's Wife

    According to an article in today's paper, there are no plans to release
    the Tyson/Douglas fight on videotape.
    
    Buster is going to have a hard time breaking away from King.  As part
    of the deal for Buster's shot at Tyson, he signed a contract with King
    giving King the promotion rights should Douglas be named champ, and for
    2 years after he lost his title.  Douglas is trying to get the contract
    voided saying that King was in breach of contract by filing the
    protest.

    I wonder how Tyson feels about Douglas being in King's "stable"?

    Geez, you guys, here's my buddy Steve Botelho in .173 asking for
    a copy of the fight, and nobody is answering him.  Now you gotta
    understand, he's just two offices away and his constant moaning
    is driving me crazy!
    
    PHULEEEEEZZZEEE, someone, get him a copy.  PHULEEEZZZEEE.
    
    Lee

Lee, 

Extract this and send it to him....


	Round 1:  Tyson comes out, stands still, throw three ineffective
		  punches.  Douglas lands 60.  Bell rings.

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]

	Round 2:  Tyson comes out, stands still, throw four ineffective
		  punches.  Douglas land 45.  Bell Rings

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]

	Round 3:  Tyson comes out, lands a couple fo good punches, 
		  then some ineffective ones.  Douglas land a few too.
		  Bell Rings.

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]


	Round 4:  Tyson's left eye is starting to close, either that
	 	  or he's got one helluva sty.  Douglas lands some
		  more punches.  Bell Rings

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]

	Round 5:  Tyson is wondering why he ever bothered and is talking
		  to himself.  Douglas lands some jabs.  Bell Rings

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]

	Round 6:  Tyson wins this round, probably because Douglas decided
		  to take a little rest.  Bell Rings.

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]

	Round 7:  Douglas resumes working on Tyson's eye.  They both
		  show an amazing display of sportsmanship by constantly
		  hugging each other.  Bell Rings

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]


	Round 8:  Tyson knocks Douglas on his keester.  The ref is
		  counting in Czechoslovakian so no one knows if he's
		  taking too long or not.  Douglas gets up looking
		  sheepish.  Bell Rings.

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]

	Round 9:  Tyson misses a chance to put Douglas away when
		  Robin Givens appears ringside and he gets distracted.
		  Douglas regains second wind.  Bell Rings.

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) talk meaningless drivel for 60 seconds)]

	Round 10: Douglas punches Tyson's lights out, with Mike scrambling
		  around on the floor trying to pick up his mouthpiece
		  with a boxing glove, then trying to put it up his nose,
		  before lodging it longitudinally in his mouth.  
		  The ref decides to count in Swahili this time, and
		  not even the Japanese fans know what's going on.
		  Tyson is KO'd.
		  Douglas starts to dance, cry, and dollar signs appear
		  in his eyes.

	[Lampley (or whoever), some boxing stiff Larry someone-or-other,
	 and Sugar Rim(tm) are speechless.]


	Post Fight Interview:

	Douglas:  I did it for Mom.

	Tyson:	  He still hasn't beat me in Mike Tyson's Nintendo Punchout!

    
    
    RE: the Douglas-King contract
    
    Douglas' lawyer claims the type of contract Douglas signed with King is
    illegal in Nevada. Something about not being able to sign contracts
    that lock a fighter to a single promoter for a series of fights. That
    and King's protest of the outcome against his fighter supposedly
    nullifying the contract.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    RE.184 Thanks for the round by round play by play. It was great!
     I've taken the liberty of forwarding it to HBO, for consideration
    for future fights.
    
    RE Lee Thanks alot now every one thinks I whine and moan all day.
    The moaning isn't about not seeing the fight but listening to Al
    trying to figure out phone numbers, how to get into systems and
    who he's acually talking to on the phone.
    I knew I should have stayed out of this file.  :*)
        
    
     But I'm still waiting for the ultimate confrontation:
    
                       To be held Friday April 13th
    
                                Mike Tyson
                                    vs
                                  Jason
    
                      13 rounds          13 rematches 
    
                                                  Steve Bo.
                                       Who still hasen't seen the fight
                                       

    I have a copy of the fight.  Where are you and where do I send it.
    I won't be able to lend it out til next week.  It's not a great
    copy.  It's a copy of a copy.
    
    
    				dennis
    

    	Steve, if you make a copy of Dennis' you'll have a copy of a
    copy of a copy.
    
    				/Don

    I'm at Dascomb Rd. Mailstop DAS1-2/F10
    
     But I think that maybe if I keep moaning loud enough Lee might
    go pick it up for me.
    
                                              Thanks 
                                              Steve Bo.
    
    

    Lee, make me a copy so that I can have a copy of a copy of
    a copy of a copy.
    
    NAZZ

Look, what we need to do to increase our standings against the
Japanese, is to develop a video cloning method.  Then you'd
have a clone, not a copy.

We've got to do something to beat the Japanese, or before long
we're gonna be writing these notes in Japanese, not english...

So, figure out how to clone a videotape, and while you're at
it, build me a tricorder....

later,
Chainsaw

    I'm over here at AET on Tech Dr. in Andover.  If ya want come
    on over and pick it up.  Like I said it won't be ready til
    next week.  Let me know and we can make arrangements.
    
    			dennis
    

    Botelho, you bum, YOU pick it up.  AET is 5 miles up the road.
    
    See what I mean about how you moan?  :*)
    
    Lee

Better a moaner than a screamer....

    Especially if you live in an apt. complex.....
    

True, but where I live, no one can hear you scream.....

    Naaa-aaa-aaa-aaa-aaa!  :-)

Yes.  

When I was a wee lad we had to take and box up all the sheep shearing..

OOPS!

I get it, you're talking about Pugilistics....Well, why didn't ya
say so, m'boy.....

    
    ...I thought so, too. I only saw the highlights on the news, Honeyghan
    getting up again and again and again...

       Tyrel Biggs vs Carl 'the Troof' Williams on USA tonight!
                                      Denny
    

	They should call tonight's fight "Lean on Me" because that's all
those two big stiffs will do.  I don't know 'bout the rest of you but I
like watching the lower weight divisions on USA.  Last week they had this
guy Jamel somethingorother and after getting thumbed in the eye he came
back and knocked the other guy out.  It was an exciting fight.  The little
guys are scrappier and tend to be better boxers since rarely do any of them
possess one punch knockout ability.

				/Don

But /Don, the BIG guys are twice the men that the LITTLE guys are....

    
    The Troof pulled out about a week ago due to a bad back.
    
    Did anyone see Bazooka Limon pull down the trunks of the guy he was
    fighting? I couldn't believe it. He tried once, unsuccessfully, but 
    the 2nd time he pulled them down to the guys knees. Limon acted like
    he just KO'd the guy.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

Re: Hoot

 were you watching WWF??    

    Say it ain't so, Hoot. I'm floooorward!!:-) I guess thats really
    pulling DOWN all the stops!!
    
    				Rich
    

    Am I reading .206 correctly?
      
    Limon actually *pulled down his opponent's trunks during the middle of
    a boxing match*?!?!?!
    
    Sheesh, sounds like something I saw when the Globetrotters came to the
    Worcester Centrum a couple weeks ago...
    
    
    py

    
    I am NOT kidding! I didn't see the fight but they showed it on ESPN's
    Sportscenter. Limon was in the corner and tied the guy up (I don't
    remember who he was). As Limon was leaning on him, he tried to pull his
    trunks down with his right hand, unsuccessfully. Lomon kept hanging on
    and then got ahold of his trunks with both gloves and pulled them down
    to the guys knees. Limon then ran around the ring with his hands in the
    air like he just KO'd the guy. I don't know who won. Pretty funny
    stuff. I'm sure it will make allot of sports news casts.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Ill back HoOT up - I saw it on ESPN also.  Unreal.
    
    JD

    Didn't mean to imply that you were kidding Hoot, the whole scenario
    just seemed so absurd...I'm still trying to clean the coffee that I
    spat onto my workstation screen when I read the orignal reply about
    this.
    
    Will defintely have to watch for this on the sports tonight...
    
    
    py

	I watched the fight on USA, I think, or Sprtschannel America...
	It's true. At any rate, Limon was clowning the whole fight, but
he got beat by this up and coming kid. Limon was obviously trying to sucker
the kid into a mistake, but the kid rocked him pretty good after the pants
joib. The announcers couldn't believe he did it, but said there was nothing
technically in the rules about NOT doing it. Limon is a has-been...

	Jim M

    
    Dear unofficial boxing noters,
    
    Do you know about the boxing conference REPAIR::BOXING, if yes, why
    aren't you there. I am sure that some of the opinions voiced here would
    stimulate this conference, which has become a little staid by lack of
    original input.
    
    Jay 

       UNBELIEVABLE fight Sturday night! Meldrick Taylor was dominating
    Julio Cesar Chavez. JCC needed a KO to win. He got it with about 15
    seconds left in the fight. He floored Taylor and the REF stopped the
    fight with 2 seconds left. I've got mixed feelings on this one. I can
    see Richard Steele's point. Taylor was in bad shape. Steele had no idea
    how much time was left. But, I've seen fights continue with guys in
    lots worse condition than Taylor was. Just hope there's a rematch.
       One other thing, why do these guys keep fighting in Las Vegas? One
    of the judges actually had Chavez winning!
                                                   Denny

    I look at it a tad differently. Why can't they get officiating to
    match the caliber of fighters and the enormity of the event.
    It always seems like the judges are an afterthought. Why is that
    when so much preparation,bidding,training and fund raising go into
    the rest of the package?
    
                                                    wayne

	Ron Borges of the Globe reported that Duva dragged Taylor out
of the hospital, against the doctors *strong* recommendation not to,
so he could attend a press conference to say he was robbed.  Given the
condition Taylor was in, if Chavez could've nailed him one more time before
the bell rang, we could've had another Kim tragedy.  Richard Steele just
might've saved Taylor's life.

				/Don

    
    Besides, a TKO is a TKO, whether it occurs in the first round or with
    one second left in the fight.  The only question is whether Taylor was
    in bad enough shape for the fight to be stopped.  Considering he
    suffered eye socket fractures from the final blow and had already 
    lost 2 pints of blood, I think Steele made the right call.
    
    If Taylor was *winning* the fight, what the hell did Chavez look like
    afterwards?  /Don, did you see it?
    
    glenn
     

Glenn --

Don't forget, boxing judges rarely have any concept of where they
are, let alone being capable of judging a fight.

The first requirement of judging a boxing match it to be blind
in one eye, and can't see outta the other..

Look at the Tyson fight.  It's highly likely that had that fight
gone the distance, Tyson would have earned a draw, based on the
judges cards.  What fight they were watching I have no idea!

I can't imagine how anyone who saw the fight would have figured
a guy who was down half a quart, and who had busted eyes, would
be ahead.  The only person who could think that would be
a boxing judge....

'Saw

    I forgot to mention this yesterday.  A local Boston sportscaster (John
    Dennis) reported Wednesday night that a Hagler/Leonard rematch is being
    negotiated.  I don't remember the specifics (wouldn't believe them if I
    did) but it was being planned for the fall.
    
    					Steve

    	"Razor" Ruddock KO'd Michael Dokes in the fourth round last
    night.
    
    				/Don

    If I remember right, Caesar Chavez has to give Meldrick Taylor a
    rematch within six months.
    
    					Steve

       Just a reminder, Michael Nunn faces Marlin Starling for one of the
    Middleweight belts tomorrow night on HBO.
                                           Denny

There was an article in yesterday's paper about Starling.  

It was by Angelo Dundee, and he was saying that he thought it was
a mistake for Starling to bulk up.  He said the extra weight would
cause you to tire faster, and rob your punches of power, since the
other guy wouldn't be as effected as a lower weight guy would.

Starling is kinda dumb anyway.  He alienated a bunch of potential
fans in Hartford a while back with some remarks.  There is a tremendous
apathy towards him in the area, which is unusual, since in the
past Hartford has rallied around its fighters, especially those
coming out of the projects...

'saw

I like Moochie.  He always has that sillyass grin on his face like
he doesn't know where he is.  That's cool.

Actually, he's not a bad fighter.  I think he could use a bit more 
discipline, and training, but he could be really good.  He got
screwed by that a__hole Boxing Commission in Joisey on a blatant
hit after the bell, but what can you expect -- I guess the other
guys folks paid the judges more money...

He'll beat Nunn....

'Saw

    	But 'Saw that fight in Joisey was a classic.  Poor Moochie was
    so out of it that when asked about being knocked out he replied
    "I wasn't even knocked down".  I was rooolin'
    
    				/Don

Yes, he was definitely suffering from Tyson Syndrome.

Tyson Syndrome is an affliction wherein the fighters mouthpiece
does not get refit into the mouth properly after a knockdown.
One in the mouth the wrong way, the mouthpiece cause pressure on
a nerve which connects up to the vagal nerve.  The vagal nerve
manages the flow of blood to the brain and the heartbeat rate.
When pressure is applied, things slow down.  So, chances are
that Moochie didn't even remember having his mouthpiece out...

Didja ever notice all the great fighters these days have these
little squeaky voices????

Chainsaw

                  Not only that, but the Vagal (Vagus Nerve)
           ( Sounds like it should be someplace else, doesn't it? )
   also supplies secretory impulses to the abdominal and thoracic viscera.
           
                          ( Guts keep SECRETS?!?!? )

                        I'm astonished all to pieces!

                                   Mike JN

They call it the vagus nerve because for a long time they weren't
sure what it did.  

In fact, all parts of the body that begin with "vag" usually signify
that the early scientific types had no idea why they were there at all...

Biologically your,
Chainsaw

Rolllin' Sawtoof!!!

Mike JN

    /Don,
    
    	Why do you call Nun a Sugar Rim wannabe?  He's nothing of the 
    	kind.  I watched alot of his early fights on ESPN.  He's one
    	tough hombre.  His style is straight up, not "run the first
    	2:30 of the round, then flash a bunch of patty cake combos to
    	steal the round" like Leonard.  Nunn should take this fight
    	easily.
    
    Claybone

Claybone, don't you wonk(tm) nothin?

Moochie is gonna mesmerize him wif he sillyass smile, the BLAM him good!

'Saw

    
    I thought Marlon had a good shot in the early going.  He was finding
    the mark consistently with the right hand, and Nunn seemed a little
    flustered.  Nunn didn't look very good the other night.

    
    Sure was a lousy fight, if you wanna call it that. I agree that
    Starling did pretty good early but then he just quit. Nunn didn't 
    impress me at all. He has no power. He couldn't even hurt Starling,
    a welterweight, let alone knock him down or out. Nunn was wide open
    from about the 8 round on but Starling wouldn't throw any punches.
    Simon Brown will take Nunn out with ease, if Nunn ever fights him.
    I wouldn't bet on it.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    	Claybone, did you watch the fight Saturday night?  I've seen
    more action when the bar down the street has last call than in that
    "fight".  Nunn better stick to fighting welterweights.
    
    				/Don

    Slasher,
    
    	Nope.  I didn't.  I wasn't trying to predict the future of
    	this fight.  I was just giving my observations of Nunn as
    	he was still an up and comer.  I guess you guys are only
    	satisfied if somebody's teef gets knocked out eh?  ;^)
    
    Claybone

Yeah, then he'd be ecstatic, he just be ecstatic.....

>        	Claybone, did you watch the fight Saturday night?  I've seen
>    more action when the bar down the street has last call than in that
>    "fight".  Nunn better stick to fighting welterweights.
>   
>    				/Don
     I thought the Elbow Lounge was closed down slasher!
                                          Denny

    Did anyone see the McCallom/Watson fight?  I watched the first six
    rounds and had to leave the house so I missed it.  The first half of
    the fight had some pretty good action.
    
    					Steve

    Elbow Lounge closed????
    
    'Tis a sad day in Leominster.
    
    Mark.

	The Ebbo Lounge is closed Denny.  I was talking 'bout the
Tankard.  8^)  A few years back I watched these two guys come flying
out the front door onto Central Street and both started dancing around
like Ali (and not landing a punch).  Well one of the guys slips on the
curb, falls into the road and cuts his head open.  The other guy kicks
him a few times then starts dancing around with his arms in the air like
he just won the heavyweight championship of the world.  That wasn't you
Mark, was it?

				/Don

    
    Watson was knocked out in the 11th round. The judges had McCallum
    winning in every round, I think. Before the fight, there was a lot of
    talk about McCallum's age and the advantage Watson would have over the
    champion through being eight years younger. In the event this did not
    materialise and Watson was in fact exhausted, due to a combination of
    vicious body punching from McCallum and Watson's constant innefectual
    punching.
      Watson was outclassed, but this was due mainly to his lack of
    experience and not through lack of skill.
    
    
    Jay

       The Ebbo's a rehab joint now Mark. Fitting I guess.
                                        Denny

    Ah.. the Tankard.  Spent the better part of my weekends there in
    the late '70s - early '80s.  In fack, we had my bachelor party in
    the front room.  Don't remember a heck of a lot, but I do recall
    waking up in a snowbank in back of Spencers, which, by the way,
    is NOT a nice place.
    
    I still have the cue stick that was broken in two, sticking out
    of said snow bank.  Boy, my noggin' hurt like heck that day.
    
    Mark.

    
    RE: .245
    
    I totally agree. The "Body Snatcher" dominated the fight. Watson is a
    good fighter but not in a championship class, yet. It was nice to see
    the notoriously violent British crowd show some class. (Remember Hagler
    getting bombarded with bottles for KOing whatshisface?) They were
    cheering for Watson but didn't do anything stupid after he was KO'd.
    Several were yelling to stop it. I agree, it should have been stopped.
    Watson wsa out on his feet, totally defensless with his hands at his
    sides. I would expect the same results if McCallum were to fight Nunn.
    
                                                   HOOT
     

It seemed like the ref was about to stop the fight and thought better of
it right before Watson bounced off the ropes and landed chin first on 
McCallum's right glove.  What a punch.

McCallum impressed me.  Watson couldn't do anything to him.

Mike

    Aren't we approaching the anniversary of losing "The Bible of Boxing"?
    
    for some reason I thought of him today, before hitting next unseen
    here.
    
    Mike

    I think so ... I know that this note has not been the same since
    he passed away ... not even close.
                                              
    ==============
    
    re McCallum,
    
    He's been a great fighter for years. I rememebr watching him on
    NBC's Saturaday fights several years ago. I'd love to see him fight
    Sugar Rim, but somehow I doubt it ...

    Re The passing away of Da Bible
    
    Dennis passed away in early July last summer. Dennis and I worked
    together on 3'rd shift, and I think of him when ever there is a fight.
    Actually, Denbo was one of the funniest guys you could ever work with.
    And your right about the boxing file being slow without him.
                                              
    
                                                      Stan

The Bibe had an insight into boxing that's comparable to some
of those old men you meet sometimes at the ballpark who seemingly
"know" baseball.

God, to listen to his notes, and his insights, you'd have figured the
Bibe woulda been about 75, all kinda hunched over, wearing this
gray sweatshirt, and startin' to tell you about Joe Louis or something.
Tellin' you about the smell of sweat, and the look in a young kid's
eyes the first time he goes after a title shot...

We miss the Bibe.  I would have given my eye teeth just to hear
his comments about the Tyson-Buster Brown (or whoever) fight....

'Saw

    You know it Frank ... and those contests of his were a lot of fun.
    Funny, but the other day I was cleaning out my files at home and
    came across a typical Bibe present - a Hearns/Barkely fight program,
    and a snapshot the Bibe (Mombak) took of Alexis Arguello ...
    
    I hope they have SPORTSnotes on The Other Side .... :-)

       I've still got my 'Greatest Fights' tape I won in the Bibe's
    Nunn-Kalambay contest. He paid for the 'prizes' out of his own pocket.
                                           Denny

    	Yeah, we used to get some good discussions about boxing with
    the Bibe.
    
    				/Don

    
    NBC "Sports Showcase" replays Ali/Frazier III tomorrow (5/12) at 4 p.m.
    I'll wager the Bibe will be tuning in from his room up on the 2nd floor.
    
    Steve

    
    RIP Rocky Graziano who died last night.  I never saw him fight, but
    lived every moment of his bouts through my father's stories about them. 
    Truely one of the greatest.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Was the movie "Somebody Up There Likes Me" about Graziano, or am
    I thinking of someone else?
    
    Dickster
    

    Didn't Rocky own Lee Myles transmissions?  Fellow NYers' must remember
    Rocky's commercials.  ALways witha Buxom Blonde.  Good stuff.
    
    JD

    JD, I think I heard those Lee Myles commercials on the radio every day
    of my life until about 10 years ago.  I think he was just a paid
    spokesman, and not the owner, though.
    
    Dan

           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 247.0                         RIP Rocky!!                        No replies
ELMAGO::CGRIEGO "Blaque'Jacque'Shellaque'"            6 lines  23-MAY-1990 16:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Ex-boxing champion Rocky Graziano who briefly held the
    middleweight boxing crown in 1947, but was better known 
    as the subject of a movie and a pitchman for products from
    yogurt to mufflers, died Tuesday. He was 71.
    
    Carlos

       Rocky was on Car 54 a couple times, once he played a hairdresser.
    He was also the speaker at one of my Little League banquets when I was
    11 or 12.
                                           Denny

    
    When I was young and foolish (as opposed to just plain foolish now),
    some friends and I decided to go to the Big Apple for a weekend.
    Somewhere between hangin' around 42nd Street and taking in a Mets
    game, we were hustled into seeing a game show that needed an audience.
    
    The show was a short-lived revival of "Beat the Clock", and the
    guest star that "week" was none other than Rocky Graziano (they
    taped all 5 shows in one day.
    
    So Rocky had to perform all these stupid stunts with the regular
    contestants.  One was where they had balloons all over the studio,
    then they put these boxing gloves with nails in 'em on him, blindfolded
    him, and he had to see if he could punch 'em all out before time
    ran out. 
    
    What was funny was that every time the camera switched from the
    clock to Rocky, the clock would stop to give him more time.  Of
    course the studio audience was going wild and we were yelling things
    like "Hey, Rocky! Pretend it's Tony Zale!"
    
    All-in-all, I felt pretty embarassed for the guy.  It sorta reminded
    me of the story of Samson and Delilah, where the mighty Sampson
    was blinded and ridiculed by the voracious throng of spectators.
    
    Oh, well.  I hope he was paid well anyway.
    
    Dickster
    

Sniff, sniff....

Gee Dickster,  you ought to write existentialist novels....

Chainsaw

    
    Exis... Existint.....SAY WHA??????
    

    
    Re: .268
    
      Existentialism.
    
      Yeah, 'saw, I knew that.  You think I didn't know that?
    
      I knew that.
    
    Dickster, who didn't do very well in Philosophy class and hated
    it to boot.
    
    P.S.  Is philosophy a walk on a slippery rock, the talk on a cereal
          box, or the smile on a dog?
    

    
    >It was a movement in literature earlier this century.
     
>     The basic premise of the movement was that no matter
>what man did, he was gonna lose because essentially the deck was
>stacked against him.  
 
    Some of the earliest followers of this philosophy in America was
    the Boston Red Sox organization. They are still steadfast believers.
    
    Dickster
    
    
    

>  P.S.  Is philosophy a walk on a slippery rock, the talk on a cereal
>          box, or the smile on a dog?
    
    Close.  Philosophy is a smiling dog eating cereal at a small college in
    Western Pennsylvania.
    
    	--dan'l

Dick --

Where did that "you think I didn't know that..." thing come from?

It sounds so familiar, but I cain't place it...

Nexted artsy-fartsy discussion is Neo-Classicism....


'Saw

    
    Re: you think I didn't know that
    
    I have no freakin' idea where it came from.  It could have been
    in the old SPORTS file, or maybe it was from Saturday Night Live,
    or one of them other freakin' lunatic places.  I keep getting them
    corn-fused.
    
    Dickster
    

It's from Martin Short's SNL character.  He's being interviews by
Mike Wallace about defective whoopee cushions or some such thing.

He sweats alot, chain smokes, and wears his classes upside down.

Mike

    
    Thanx, Mike, that's it!
    
      "I didn't say that, you said that. Why do you say I said that?
      No, I didn't.  No I didn't.  Well I knew that. Etc. Etc."
    
    The mind runs off aimlessly at times. Thanx for the jog.
    
    Dickster
    

>>The basic premise of the movement was that no matter
>>what man did, he was gonna lose because essentially the deck was
>>stacked against him.  

Or more importantly, it didn't matter because there was no purpose to life so
it didn't matter what you did.  Your actions were your actions, nothing more
and nothing less.

Take it from a guy who has a copy of "Being and Nothingness" next to my
"Internals and Data Structures Manual" :-).

j.

    
    Jeff, that sounds similar to the "beat gereration" movement of the
    fifties.  Was it a direct derivative?
    
    BTW, should I take this to the DECEMBER 13, 1955 NOTE?
    
    Dickster
    

Wasn't "Being and Nothingness" subtitled "Diary of a Jets Fan"?

re Jeff:

	yes, that was exactly the way I would have described it had
	I used those words. ;^)

	Seriously, that's what I was trying to get at, but just didn't
	put it so eruditely.


re Dan:

	Yes, I would agree with that.  While it was interesting to read
	from a "see something in a different way" point of view, it was
	not what I'd read after a hard day in this place to relax.
	I'd probably end up slitting my wrists, or playing russian roulette
	with a chainsaw....

	"Waiting for Godot" is priceless.


	In my avante garde music classes, there were often parallels drawn
	between the Picasso painting "Guernica", the works of Sartre and
	Camus, and the music of Schoenberg...


re "I knew that":

	I knew that.  What made you think I didn't know that....;^)

	thnx,

Chainsaw

    
        Yeah Doug, what's the other node name? Raisinette? :^>
    
        Bull~
    

Auntb is one, I'm sure....

    Mike,
    
    I've seen STEAMBATH. It is  good.  And you get to see Valerie Perrine's
    Titles for a bit ;-)
    
    JD

    
    Mike,
       I saw that one quite awhile ago. It's worth viewing. Who
    played the female lead? My memory keeps saying Valerie Perrine,
    but that might just be wishful thinking on my part.
    
    Bull~
    

    
      JD, fastest fingers in the Northwest!
    
    

    You can see more than just "a bit" of Valarie Perrine's titles in Lenny
    (the story of comedian Lenny Bruce), with Dustin Hoffman in the lead
    role.
    
    Dan

Got to see a lot of her Titles in "Slaughterhouse Five"...

Some amazing Titles I must say.....

'Saw

    speaking of Titles and Acquisitions...
    
    For those of you fortunate enough to have a workstation, have any of
    you checked out the SI swimsuit calendar that was scanned in for the
    CDA Viewer?
    
    3 years worth of Elle, Paulina, Kathy, etc.
    
    Mike

    Whaddya guys think of the sledgehammer Tyson dropped on Tillman. Is he
    back or was it just another fight against a mediocre opponent?

       He hit him in the forehaid. Guess Tillman's got a glass head!
                                           Denny

    
    Tillman didn't look good enough to be called "mediocre".
    
    You had to love Foreman's interview. I liked the line about, "you media
    guys have been saying that I've only been fighting stiffs. But you only
    say it because it is true." Then he goes on about, "if I miss him with
    my right, and then miss him with my left, I will belly bop him."
    
    I also liked it when Tyson refused to talk to Larry Merchant. Can't
    blame him.
    
    But one of the best lines was when Foreman talked about his next
    opponent. He said Damiani might be next "or maybe Henry Tillman."
    Ha ha ha. He saw the obvious, Tillman is a stiff, and it would be 
    another easy payday.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

	> Whaddya guys think of the sledgehammer Tyson dropped on 
    	> Tillman. Is he back or was it just another fight against 
        > a mediocre opponent?
    
    I think it was a payoff.  I think Tillman took the drop.  
    
    Case in point:
    	1.  He was hit on the upper left side of his head.  Not exactly
    	    a chin-buster.  My wife has hit me harder than that.
    	2.  As he fell, and while he was on the ground, his eyes were open.
    	3.  At the count of only 4, he spit out his mouthpiece.  He already
    	    gave up.
    	4.  As soon as the 10 was called, he was up saying he was fine.
    	5.  Did you see the Dr. with the flashlight in the eyes?  
    	    The Doc was shining it from the side not straight in front of
    	    the eye, and for less than a second.  There was nothing wrong 
    	    with Tillman.
    	6.  This was Tyson's fight as a set up for the Crown later.
    
    All these points individually don't constitute a thrown fight, but
    collectively and from ONLY my viewpoint, I believe it was a setup.
    	    
    Glenn

    
    Gotta agree, Glenn. He took a dive. He definately could have gotten up.
    Then immediately, Don King was prancing around the ring ranting and
    raving, "look folks, he's back, he's back". He appeared to me to try to
    convince the public that Tyson is back to his devastating old self and
    made sure it was over in the 1st round.
    
    Sure looked like a case to me that Tillman was told not to finish the
    1st round. He didn't appear to stand a chance of winning to begin with.
    He did his best Sugar Rim, run like hell, imitation. Then threw one
    punch and took the dive before he got hurt. 

    	Don King in on a fix?  Come on guys!  Didn't you hear him talking
    about honesty and integrity the other night on ESPN?  No way!
    
    				/Don

  <<< Note 144.302 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "GeorgeForeman-NextHEAVYweightChamp" >>>

    	Don King in on a fix?  Come on guys!  Didn't you hear him talking
    about honesty and integrity the other night on ESPN?  No way!
    
    				/Don


 And he such a fine upstanding member of the church too Don....no way his
 beliefs in the lord would allow this....

 mike

    
    I hate Don King as much as the next fella, but I thought that the shot
    that Tyson laid on Tillman was enough to put him down for the count. I
    don't recall seeing Tillman move during the 10 count and when it was
    called, I thought I saw Tyson motioning to Tillman's corner to bring in
    someone to look at him. I just watched the fight once and when I get a
    chance I'll take a look at the tape. If you want a punch investigated,
    take a look at the one that Foreman used to put down that stiff on
    Saturday. There was absolutely no power behind it at all and the jerk
    went down like he was shot.
    
    Dennis
    

    Formans k.o. punch. I agree you had better take a look at the tape
    again!
    
                                            wayne

    	Yeah but Dennis didn't you see the Foreman elbow right before
    the punch?  Had to hurt.
    
    				/Don

George Foreman is a Man of the Lord....he would never cheat.     ;^)

If Mike Tyson hit me in the forehaid, I'd probably wind up in the
hospital.  Although the couple of million bucks I'd have amassed would
probably ease my pain just fine.....


'Saw

    On USA's boxing show last night they had an interview with a guy
    who has invented something he calls a "Punch Impact Indicator".
    He plans to use it to entertain the fans as an adjunct to the current
    punch counter.
    
    This thing uses a foam sensor sewn behind the leather of the glove
    where contact with an opponent is made. A wire goes from the sensor
    to a transmitter around the wrist of the glove which sends a signal
    to a receiver at ringside which feeds it into a computer.  The compuet
    then uses an arbitrary scale to score the "force" of a punch while
    also noting the frequency of punches.
    
    The goal is to provide a more objective tool, eventually, to judges.
    
    Rich
    
    

    Hey /Don, Too bad Marvin was so sensitive to those love taps that he
    kept on covering up, huh?  Shame he couldn't set that Punch Impact
    Indicator off.  After all, he brought K and O into the ring with him. 
    That's all he said he needed, except for an idea.
    
    Dan

    	Love Tappin' Leonard couldn't hurt a flea.  Well maybe a LaLonde
    but not a flea.
    
    				/Don

    /don...you are wrong again.
    
    Leonard beat the snot out of Hagler.
    
    JoJ

    RE: JoJ
    
    	That snot you saw was from the guy in the front row who had
    a cold.  Wasn't Hagler's
    
    				/Don

   `s not snot, either

   Mike JN

    
    The Boxing Writers of America recently named Sugar Ray Leonard as
    the 1980s recipient of the "Sugar Ray Robinson Fighter of the Decade"
    award.  It's nice to see the people who get paid for the correctness
    of their opinions do themselves one better, and qualify the adoption
    of the nomer no less.
    
    Now I'll just step aside and let all you appreciative fans add your own 
    personal salutations here!
    
    :>)

   Was Sly Stallone nominated?

   Just checking
   Mike JN

    My opinion ???
    
    Mike Tyson was the Fighter Of The Decade.
    
    Sorry but Sugar Ray Leonard orchestrated just about every detail of his
    fighting career.  Each of his decisions, that is, choice of opponent,
    choice of venue, time of day, weight limits, purse money and so on, was
    calculated to maximize his own fame and fortune to the detriment of
    others.   He insisted on fighting Hagler in Las Vegas because he knew
    Hagler would have a harder time getting a favorable decision.   He
    fought Tommy Hearns for the second time a full eight or nine years
    after their first fight so that he could be reasonably assured that
    Hearns had aged sufficiently by then.   He won't touch Michael Nunn
    because he knows Nunn is younger and better.   And on and on ...
    
    Mike Tyson took on all comers and fought them wherever and whenever and
    crushed each of them.
    
    Bob Hunt

 True Bob but we're talking boxing here where charlatan rule the roost,
 shouldn't the best of the best charlatans be their leader? Obviously
 wht SugarRim@ is the winner.....

 as for the decade what about Holmes, Hagler, Aguerio? All equally as 
 impressive as Tyson....

    
    RE: .320 (Bob)
    
    Well, Tyson didn't really come strongly on the scene until the latter
    part of the decade.  And he could be "faulted" for ignoring the
    challenges of Evander Holyfield (although, akin to Leonardesque
    reasoning, this was more business-driven then owing to a lack of
    confidence).  Tyson himself credited Leonard as being the "best fighter
    of the previous generation."
    
    If it were my decision, I would have picked Marvin Hagler over both of
    them.
    
    Steve 

    If you ever wathed HBO"S "knockouts" they did a great show of the
    bouts of the eightys,commentated by Jim Lamply and Sugar Ray.
    
    They showed all the good bouts and at the end they asked Merchant
    and Leonard there 2 most exciting bouts,
    
    Sugars were,I forget # 2 but he said #1 was beating MMH,Mercht 
    said,
    Cooney-Holmes  #1 and Hagler-Hearns 2
    
    
    Those guys are messed up.,..

Anybody catch "Three Champs and a Baby" on "In Living Color"?

I laughed so hard I pissed my pants (literally).....

'Saw

    
    
    ...that's what diapers are for!

    Yeah, the only thing missing was a Don King!  It was funny though!

    	Paez was at his showboating best yesterday.  I must admit that the
    guy is entertaining.
    
    				/Don

    	I watched the Mark Breland/? Frazier welterweight fight
    	yesterday. Frazier is the nephew of Smokin' Joe, who
    	was in the kid's corner.
    
    	Breland must not have much of a chin, because Frazier
    	staggered him once or twice in rounds 1 and 2 with a left
    	jab.
    
    	Both men looked tired in the early going. Breland was
    	bleeding from the mouth and the nose. Frazier's right
    	eye looked awful; the ring doctor musta looked at it
    	about 10 times.
    
    	In about round 11 or so, Breland walks into a right
    	from Frazier. Breland was on his back for a l l o o n n g g
    	time.
    
    	Because this was a title fight, Frazier is the new
    	WB? Welterweight Champeen of the World.
    
    	Too much punishment suffered by both fighters.

    I believe you are discussing 2 seperate fights.
    
    Breland                  and                    Frazier 
    fought different people.

    I think they were two differnt fight's as well. Mark breland fought
    Aaron Davis and Breland got ko in the 9th.  Riddick Bowe stopped Art
    Tucker. Jorge Paez def Troy Dorsey-split decision. 
    
    Mike
    

    	Hey, you're right. I had seen both fights and got mixed
    	up.
    
    	Anyway, Aaron Davis beat Mark Breland.
    
    	Maybe the other fight was Virgil Hill and Frazier?
    
    	Scott (I'd better stick to the Tour de France)

    
    Did Dorsey get jobbed against Paez the way he did the first time?
    
    							Roland
    

   TRIVIA:

   	WHO WAS THE LAST BRITISH BOXER TO WIN THE 
        WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP ?

   

   Ready for the answer?

   

   	Bob Fitzsimmons.
   In 1897 He knocked out James Corbett in the 14th round to take the
   title.

   Mike JN

Believe it or not, the Fitzsimmons-Corbett fight was captured on film, and 
is in fact the oldest known moving picture ever made.  I videotaped the 
parts of it that were shown on T.V. once.  Another interesting piece of 
trivia:

Who was the timekeeper in said contest?

   

   Ready for the answer?

   

   	Bat Masterson

Steve

    Holyfield vs. Douglas, October 25, 1990.
    
    Mark.

    	Evander can work with weights all he wants, but he still ain't
    no heavyweight.  Buster (if he's in any kind of shape) will win
    this fight, setting up a rematch with Ruth Roper's former son-in-law.
    
    				/DoB

 Never mind that what about the cash a rematch between buster and mike
 would generate. Do you really think King would slip away quitely if
 he didn't know his man would get his day???

mike

       Slasher's correct. Evander is a blowed up light-heavy just like Mike
    Spinks was.
                                              Denny

Holyfield should beat Douglas in 3 rounds.

-Andy

       Douglas in 6 or less, fight won't even be close.
                                   Denny

       Sugar Rim(tm) is gonzo from yapping on HBO. Seems he didn't give them a 
    shot atthe rights to his next 'fight'. He sold it to Showtime.
                                    Denny

    I'm hearing all kinds of rumors about Buster being outta shape.
    Maybe it's just the imaginations of promoters, handlers, etc who
    are overly concerned about their investment - or maybe Buster really 
    has been downing too many doughnuts.  Who knows?  
    
    What I do know is that my local branch of the cable TV monoply is asking 
    $35 for this thing.  This despite the fact that these guys are hardly 
    household names or proven commodities.  Hell, if Holyfield is famous for
    anything at all, it's for taking money _not_ to fight.  And who the hell 
    ever heard of James Douglas before the Tyson fight?  We're not exactly 
    talking Foreman/Frazier/Ali; you know?
    
    Actually, I probably oughta thank the Pay-Per-View people for again
    reminding me that pro boxing truly is the sport of dorks.

    Douglas wears down a game Holyfield, wins on TKO in 7th round.
    
    NAZZ

    	Fatso (Douglas) will beat Adonis (Holyfield) in a triumph that
    will be heralded as a victory for SlimFast regulars all over the
    world!  GO BUSTER!  WHAT A BOXER!!
    
    				/Don

    Coming soon the /Buster Aerobic Cross-Training Video !

Holyfield... in 3... TKO's Busted Dogless into the land of Pinklon Thomas, 
Michael Dokes, Tim Witherspoon, etc.  a.k.a.  Palookaville.

    With an outlook like that, maybe Iron Mike should fight _Dave_ Stewart.
    
    Two gifted ex-champs with inflated egos and mouths to match.

    Mike JN, you have truly regained your form!
    
    Hawk
    

    re a few back, yeah I wish it was Tyson vs. *Dave* StewIt(tm)...
    
    My prediction:  Holyfield to knock down Douglas twice in the 6th.
    Buster won't answer the bell for the 7th.
                                                                 
    
    py

    
    >       Eat 4 lbs of lasagna and drink 12 cans of beer before going to
    >       bed every night 
    
    
    You say it like it's a bad thing.
    
    Dickster
    
    

    > Eat 4 lbs of lasagna and drink 12 cans of beer before going to
    > bed every night.
    
    That valuable piece of advice is found in every /Don Workout video,
    graphically depicted even!
    
    HTH.
    
    Hawk

This fight, believe it or not, is a fight of great importance for
the image of boxing, and all those who would cry fix.

I've never completely trusted boxing, and for all the pre-fight hype
I don't see it as a great boxing match.

If Holyfield wins, then you've got a situation where many, many people,
myself included, will be saying "How much did they pay Tyson to take
a dive in his loss?".  Buster will be a flash in the pan, who sufficed
to give Tyson his first loss, because, let's face it, if Tyson regains
the title at a later date, he's an even bigger commodity in the eyes
of the American boxing public than an undefeated Mike Tyson who
kicks butt in 90 seconds.  He's overcome adversity, and America loves
an underdog who overcomes.

If Buster should win, then people will put down the quality of the
fight, because it's not really worth $35 on ppv.  I mean, I *might*
watch Tyson for $35, but not Buster Brown and his dog Scrappy or
what the f*** ever his name was....

I don't think Buster is that great a fighter.

Actually, the fight I'd like to see is Buster vs the Old Bald Fat Guy....


I wish the Bibe was here to give us his insights....

'Saw

   I think it was:

   Hi! I'm Buster Brown! I live in a shoe.
   This is my dog Tige. Look for him in there. too!

   HTH FRANWA
   Mike JN

    
    I wanna see Buster Brown's dog Tige fight Benji on pay-per-view.
    That little suger-wimp cutesy-wootsie Benji needs his hind end kicked.
    
    Is dog fighting legal anywhere in the U.S.?
    
    Dickster
    

   Just here in Colorado, I believe. At least, I know a Denver reporter
   named Wendy Bergen has been scheduling Pit Bull fights.

   Is it true that all the Lassies were really boy dogs, `cause the girl
   dogs were too stupid?

   My favorite fictional dog = `Bob, Son of Battle' (read it when I was a
   kid. Great book)

   Mike JN

The reason that all the Lassies were boy dogs is the same reason
that police dogs are boy dogs.

It is easier to get a male dog to leave the trainer (at great
distances) than to get a female dog to do the same.  Supposedly
the females tend to stick very close to the trainer.

This is what I've heard.

btw, thank for the help on Buster's dog....

'Saw

    THe greastest dog of all was in "A Boy and His Dog"  !!!
    
    
    JD

    What about that old Disney flick where the dog gets shot and everybody,
    including Saddam Hussein cried (I am not making this up).  Now that was
    a dog!
    
    Hawk

    WHat about the dog from "Me and My Arrow"?  Haven't seen that since I
    was a little kid.
    
    Dan

    Ah, what a day in sports:  talks about dogs, kilts, latin, miracles,
    ah yess....
    
    JD

    Buster Hyme(oops) make that Douglas and Evander Holyfield had their
    weigh in tonite.  Holyfield weighed in at a svelt 208 lbs while
    porky...er..I mean Buster Douglas weighed in at a portly 246lbs.
    
    Guess the millions that Douglas won in the Tyson fight all went to
    Domino's Pizza!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    They said Douglas is 18lbs heavier now than when he fought Tyson.
    
    I see Holyfield taking him 2min. into the 8th round. Match is stopped
    and a TKO decision is given to Holyfield. Tyson will regain belt
    later!!!
                                                      M.J.

I'd like to know the difference in reach between Holyfield and Douglas.

Even if it is greatly in Buster's favour (and I suspect it is) he'll have a 
tough time carrying all that weight around for more than 5 or 6 rounds.

rick ellis

    Buster will drop Evander in less than 8!!!
    
    Tony
    

    I'll go with Buster.  The weight will be a factor in Buster's favor. 
    He just has too much of a size advantage over Evander, not just in
    weight, but in height, reach, haid circumference, etc.
    
    I saw the weigh in after hearing about this tremendous weight gain, and
    I thought Buster looked pretty darn good physically.  It's not all in
    his gut, like Gorgeous George.......
    
    Unless Evander gets lucky in the 1st 2 rounds (which I doubt), I agree
    that Buster will finish him by the 8th.  But, as always, whoever wins
    more rounds or scores a (T)KO will win this fight.....  :-)
    
    Hawk

Hawk, the disney dog was Ole Yeller. Dam I was on the bus heading home still
crying over that one...

;^)


Buster in 10........

       Good P-name Mike, we'll win this one yet!
                                   Denny

    Mike & Denny, I was very surprised to hear Charles Laquidara's comments
    this morning on why he's voting `no'......
    
    JMHO, but I'm not convinced about either side.  Too bad there's no
    `maybe, maybe not'.......  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
    P.S.  For those who're scratching their heads, we're talking about
    	  Question 3 on the ballot here in MA which was initiated by a
    	  group called "Citizens for Limited Taxation" (CLT) which 
    	  revokes the tax package that Gov. Dukakis laid on us a couple
    	  of months ago to try to bring us out of the hole......
    
    P.S.S.  The sports content facilitator in me wants me to put in here
    	  that I really think that Buster will kick Evander's chiseled
    	  torso.......

	Evander Holyfield to beat Buster Goodyear, I mean, Donut Douglas,
I mean Buster Douglas.

	It goes something like this... Holyfield takes some shot from Buster
early, but ther conditioning pays off, as he is still around in the 8th
round. At this point, Buster, having dropped about 10 lbs, loses his trunks.
Holyfield drops him in the confusion, and Buster rolls away, not answering the
bell for the 9th.

	Jim M

    
    Words to live by:
    
    	Never bet on the better-looking boxer!
    
    	George Foreman, Jr. in 8.
    
    
    						Roland
    

Conditioning is the key.

If at the end of an event, you're better conditioned than your
opponent, no matter how much bigger he is, you'll win.

JMHO,
'Saw

       Douglas has a 6" reach advantage on Holyfield. And as Ron Boring
    said in today's Globe: "Evander looks like Busters' little brother".
                                    Denny

    
    Holeyhell better tape his ears.
    

    Holyfield just made minced meat out of Blubber, er I mean Buster
    Douglas in the third round.
    
    Douglas' first words after getting knocked out were,"But Mommy, i don't
    wanna go to first grade"
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

>     <<< Note 144.347 by CBOPC3::ROSS "You've fallen and can't get up!" >>>
>               -< Buster better beware.  Holyfield hits hard.   >-
>
>Holyfield... in 3... TKO's Busted Dogless into the land of Pinklon Thomas, 
>Michael Dokes, Tim Witherspoon, etc.  a.k.a.  Palookaville.

You could have taken that one to the bank... :-)

I believe we are on the verge of a great period in the Heavyweight division.
Holyfield vs Tyson will be the Ali-Frazier matchup of the 90's.   Two 
athletic, hard hitting, boxers.... as opposed to the paunchy, jab-clutch-rest,
lumbering oafs that "dominated" the heavyweights for so long.  Once Tyson
puts Foreman to sleep, we should see a great fight early next year.  Then
a rematch in the fall.   Tyson/Holyfield will be the fight of the decade.

Leon Spinks, Michael Dokes, Greg Page, Larry "Eggs" Holmes, Busted Douglas,
Tony Tubbs, Gerry Cooney, ad nauseum have hopefully been issued their one
way ticket to Palookaville... 

Re: Douglas' first words

  I thought they were "Which way did he go, George?  Which way did he go?"

    
    Douglas was unsettled from the start.  Once Evander started to land
    (which was very early in the first round) Douglas took on a very
    flustered appearance.  Holyfield trained with total dedication and
    focus for the moment - Douglas, although he is a very nice man,
    disgraced his title by failing to prepare with 1/10th of the same
    verve.  He was easy pickins' for a very worthy heavyweight champion,
    who doesn't need a loud mouth or a lot of flash to prove a point.
    
    Steve

    Unbelievably crunching right overhand cross that Holyfield landed! I'm
    surprised that Buster ever made it to his feet again, let alone remain on 
    his back in la-la land for 4 minutes.
    
    Buster totally whiffed on a right cross while in tight against Evander,
    and Buster's momentum carried him forward unprotected.  Evander had
    time to comb his hair in the ensuing seconds, and basically wound up
    and cold-cocked Buster as the ex-champ realized the fight was over
    before the punch even landed.
    
    Evander was in terrific shape.  Douglas *looked* heavier than 246.
    
    Mark.

    
    Well Buster"time to eat the donuts" Douglass was REAL impressive
    now twernt he? I've seen Sumo wrestlers in better shape than
    he was last night. This man was supposed to be the undisputed 
    heavyweight champion? Well at least he was heavy. Holyfield looked
    like he was chipped out of stone. Douglass has no one to blame
    but himself.
    
    Here's a look at Buster"time to eat the donuts"Douglas' daily training 
    regiment.
    
    1) get up..oh..say..8ish or so.
    
    2) get on that ten speed and pedal that grueling mile to Dunkin' Donuts
       where he consumes A BIG ONE with extra cream and sugar, 2 Bavarian
       creams, and grabs a 12 pack munchkin box to go.
    
    3) Pedal back the grueling mile to the hotel, a little bit slower mind
       you, it's hard to eat munchkins and pedal at the same time.
    
    4) Watch Oprah, Phil and the price is right.
    
    5) Jog a grueling 1/2 mile to the Colonels for a six piece meal deal
       and a twelve pack of Hot Wings to go. 
    
    6) Jog back to the hotel with Hot Wings in hand.(weight training)
    
    7) Watch assorted cooking shows and soaps, the Flintstones and Buster's
       favorite Gilligans Island. 
    
    8) Order from room service because he don't want to miss the episode 
       where the castaway's are turned into zombies and brought to a 
       haunted castle, it's his favorite episode! 
    
    9) Do a couple sit-ups and push up's, take a crap and a shower then
       go to bed.
    
    10) Maybe hit up the IHOP in the morning, but that's a 2 mile bike
    ride.
    
    
    
    
    Steve_who_is_losing_interest_in_today's_boxing

    I saw the weigh-in.... Holyfield's physique = Wow!  (-:

'Mornin all,

Could we have a summary of what happened?

All I understand is that Evander bopped Buster.

It wasn't worth getting/staying up at 5 this morning Eurotime to watch it.

thanks a lot

rick ellis

    
    re .385
    
    Some good diggin's on Buster there, Steve.
    
    Dickster
    

   <<< Note 144.340 by PEACHS::MITCHAM "Andy in Alpharetta (near Atlanta)" >>>
                             -< My prediction... >-

Holyfield should beat Douglas in 3 rounds.

-Andy

    So who will be Holyfield's first opponent?         
    
    Before the fight I thought I heard that Mike Tyson would get a shot at
    the Holyfield-Douglas winner, but Gil Santos on WBZ this morning said
    that George Foreman would get the first shot at Holyfield's belt(s).
    
    
    py

       Holyfield has a signed contract with Foreman. I see a legal battle
    brewing here. King/Tyson stiffed Evander for a coupla years, now
    they're going to cry foul all over the place.
                                Denny

    After seeing those dollar signs after that wicked short right from
    Holyfield, I don't blame Douglas for not getting up; not that he
    could anyway. For losing the damn thing, app. 3 Mil per minute, I'd
    say he still came out a winner. But I don't think we will see anymore 
    of James "Buster" Douglas. Holyfield did indeed sign a contract to
    fight Foreman sometime in April......soooo, enjoy the limelight
    while you got it Evander,cause come Spring,Foreman is gonna eat you
    for lunch. Although I'll be rootin' for Holyfield, I don't think 
    there's anyone out ther that can take Foreman. He's a mass of dead
    weight which is probably numb by now but has an incredibly huge
    right.   Foreman in the 6th--KO

    I can't sum it up any better Rick. As Karen pointed out in her own way
    :-), Holyfield looked like he was poured out of a concrete mold.
    Awesome physical condition, definition like you wouldn't believe.
    Buster looked lousy before the fight. No tone whatsoever (looked like
    Morganna the Kissing Bandit with gloves on), no movement. His jab was
    rather lazy, and it was evident early that Holyfield was ready.
    
    I thought Douglas would win (before I saw how awful he looked), and I
    really underestimated Holyfield. Douglass threw a half-decent jab in
    the second, and Holyfield fired two or three machine-gun jabs before
    Buster could even bring the jab back. Holyfield is supposed to be
    hittable, and his punch isn't supposed to drop heavyweights. Forget
    that. The KO punch was a picture-perfect bomb. EH faked a punch, Buster
    threw an uppercut where he *thought* Holyfield was ... bad mistake. He
    missed evrything, and was left exposed and moving towards EH. EH
    uncorked a overhand right that started from the Lower Thompson Street
    parking lot (here in Maynard, MA. 01754), and hit Buster flush. Buster
    was gone before he hit the canvas. And his behavior right after the KO
    was really weird, he picked his nose (or tried to), and sort of gave up
    (or lost what senses he had left) ....
    
    
    A textbook display.

    If this is truly the end of the road for Buster Douglas, let us take a
    moment to remember what he did to Mike Tyson in Tokyo last February.
    
    It will be a long time before we see an upset of that proportion in
    boxing again.   I watched in awe as he chopped Tyson back down to
    mortality.
    
    If that fight was legitimate, that is.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    The punch from Holyfield was a good one, but IMHO, I did not think 
    Douglas was that hurt by it. True it knocked him silly, but he 
    made little or no attempt to get up and if you watched the replay
    of the knockdown, Douglas wiped off his mouth and looked and FOCUSED
    on his glove THREE times! I don't know..I hate to take anything away 
    from Holyfield but I dont know...
    
    
    
    Steve

    As somebody said earlier, this fight was a farce.  I had never seen
    either fighter before but was still hoping for a classic match-up
    a la the great heavyweight fights of the 70's.  Instead, we get
    a "champion" who blubbers around the ring with *no* fire in his 
    eyes and gets totally outclassed.
    
    Buster seems like a nice guy.  Maybe he should just cash his 24 mil,
    stay out of the ring, go home and fulfill his "Clever family" 
    fantasy.  That's all that seemed to be on his mind anyway.
    
    Still, I'm glad I saw the fight because Holyfield seems to me to 
    be worthy of the belt.  Incredible physical condition, style and
    desire.  Don't get soft Evander! :-)
    
    Tyson-Holyfield?  Yeah!
    
    Dan
    

    Anyone see ESPN last night with Foreman?  What a howl!  Foreman said
    he'd be eating cheeseburgers and collecting Social Security checks the
    day of the fight and be the next heavyweight champ.  
    
    At least he brings some color to the sport again.  Not like Mike "Yeah,
    I'm a whiner but I'm god" Tyson, or Buster "I'm champ, nuff said"
    Douglas, or, I suspect Evander "" Holyfield.
    
    	--dan'l

    	I still don't think Evander looked that good.  Razor would clean
    out all these stiffs if given a chance.  But nobody wants to fight
    a noname who can clean their clock.  Poor Mike Tyson got bronchitis
    rather than fight him.  8^)  Foreman will make the pre-fight stuff
    with Holyfield fun but once in the ring he'll get clobbered.
    
    				/Don

 I agree /Don, the only thing I found impressive about Evander was elusiveness.
 He was right there in Buster's face but Buster didn't tage him but once.
 I think that kid Bowe who fought in the prelims looked to have a lot of
 talent but needs some polish and desire. Best fight of the night was the one
 I watch on ESPN with Louie "Sharp Shooter" Espinoza....

 that's another thing that kills me with these fighters, before Sugar Rim (tm)
 it was Joe Frazier, Mohamed Ali, George Forman, Alexis Auguerio etc...

 now it's "Pretty Boy" Floyd Weaver, Evander "the real deal" Holyfield,
 Michael "TNT" Dokes....

 mike 

    	The nickname is the way to market them Mike.  Most of 'em stink
    as fighters and figure a tough sounding name will help.  I wonder
    how much money Steve Winn lost?
    
    				/Don

    
    re: Doc/others
    
    	When I saw Douglas rub his nose when he was flat on his back,
    I thought that his nose might of been broken.  When fighters get
    hit in the nose area and if it is a great punch (which it was),
    often we see fighters rubbing their noses because the punch effected
    their breathing.  But after seeing the replay, Evander didn't even
    hit him in the nose area (actually, I though the left hook that
    missed, which was when douglas was going down was the main blow).
    
    	I heard many people talk about Buster's heart last night, but
    it just doesn't fit to me.  First of all, when Buster was knocked
    down by Tyson, he could of packed it in and no one would of questioned
    anything.  But he didn't and he got off the canvas to put Tyson
    out.  Now, here he is as Champion and he gets hit (awesome punch
    BTW) and goes down.  As champion, why wouldn't he get back up? 
    Why didn't he even attempt to get back up?  If it were late in the
    fight and say he was exhausted and had no chance to win, I can see
    him laying low, but it was only the 3rd round.  I think people that
    say he layed low, are selling Holyfield's performance short.  Evander
    hit him with a tremendous shot and I felt that buster was knocked
    into dream world.  The other factor was why would a man who layed
    low begin to cry in his corner?  Either Buster is a tremendous actor,
    or he was hurt and was upset at the fact that he lost the fight
    in the manner he did.
    
    	As for Foreman, he has turned the image of himself and that
    of a fighter completely around.  Everyone knows that George is too
    fat, slow, and gets hit to much.  But if he weighs in at 260+, that
    will be a lot of weight difference for Evander to move around. 
    George can still punch, and if he gets a good shot at Evander, it
    will be lights out.  But then again, Evander has the speed to move
    and frustrate George.  At least these two won't be calling each
    other names and such for the pre-hype fight.. Nevertheless, it will
    be interesting.  George can't do any worse than Spinks did against
    Tyson, or Buster against Holyfield.  George should last for 6-7
    rounds.  I know George is a longshot, but I'm be pulling for the
    old man!
    
    							bill..g.
    

  Mike,

>> that's another thing that kills me with these fighters, before Sugar Rim (tm)
>> it was Joe Frazier, Mohamed Ali, George Forman, Alexis Auguerio etc...

>> now it's "Pretty Boy" Floyd Weaver, Evander "the real deal" Holyfield,
>> Michael "TNT" Dokes....

  Most of those other suckers had nicknames too:

- Smokin' Joe Frazier
- Doesn't Pretty Boy Floyd Weaver come from Pretty Boy Floyd Patterson which
  comes from Pretty Boy Floyd the Gangster? 
- Cassius Clay had one but I think people gave up trying to nickname him when
  he became Ali.

  Anyway, Evander "the real deal" - that sucks big time.  What is he, a
  bargain carpet outlet or something?

  'avagooweeken, rick ellis

    >True it knocked him silly, but he 
    >made little or no attempt to get up and if you watched the replay
    >of the knockdown, Douglas wiped off his mouth and looked and FOCUSED
    >on his glove THREE times!
    
    I saw that too and wondered...  Rather than a dive, I think it probably
    just took some time for his brain to finish sloshing side to side
    within his skull, and settle and then blank out.  He looked much worse
    at the count of 8 than he did at 3!
    
    45 minutes before the fight, Don King tried to see Douglas.  Buster's
    manager said no...Buster was taking a nap!
    
    Dan

    	How about that Andrew Maynard/(Stiff we found at the blackjack
    table) fight?  It was so bad it was laughable.  Richard Steele had
    to yell at the guys "Your hands are free, start punching!".  Good
    to see some things don't change too.  Bert Cooper still leads with
    his face.
    
    				/Don

 Don, I doubt that Winn lost at all. He said earlier in the evening that
 they already had over a million subscribers for ppv, the place was sold
 out and he was able to book bets at his own joint. Also something he did
 that deserves mentioning is it gave the fight to the military for zilch.
 I guess he's good friends with one of the generals out there on the base
 close to Vegas so they hooked into the military's broadcasting and aired
 across the world to our services men and women for nothing. He also claimed
 that many foreign countries who have never done PPV did a bundle for him.

 On the military thing he'll probably get a tax writeoff but hey he's to be
 comended anyways for it. Never seen slime like King or Arum make that kind
 of jesture....

mike

 Oh yeah Don that was the best nickname of the night I think he was know
 as Greg "SirJabalot" Mcmurtry?...

 Yeah Rick while agree some of the older fighters did have nicknames they 
 basically earned them first and they were rarely used during the introductions.

 mike

    	Yeah "Sir JabAlot" was a riot.  Sir JabbedAlot would've been
    more like it.  I feel sorry for the folks who paid money for this.
    What a farce.
    
    				/Don

I hosted a Pay per View event last night and I'm sure glad I collected
before the fight.

TTom

   Fighters have always had nicknames.

   The Brown Bomber
   Kid Gavilan
   The Manassa Mauler
   Sugar Ray Robinson
   etc.

   Ali (Cassius Clay)... seems like he was the Louisville Lip.
   Sonny Liston (he was either `The Bear' ... or Clay called him The Bear
   and it stuck)
   I don't remember Floyd Patterson being called Pretty Boy
   Ingemar Johannsen (wasn't he something about the Swede?)

   Mike JN

After a big fight like this I can't help but wonder if the Bible of Boxing 
gets PPV????

Metz

    re .402
    
    Agreed Goose, unfortunately, Douglass will have to live down the Tucker
    debacle forever, unless he's out cold.  It just seemed *weird* how he
    reacted after the punch - but no stranger I suppose than Tyson trying
    to shove his mouthpiece back in his mouth after Buster clocked him.
    
    If a silver lining can be found, maybe he'll have a chance to get his
    life together without 1,000 people trying to have a piece of him. 
    
    I mean, I suspect that Don King will not be hassling Douglas anytime in
    the near future ....
    
    Evander fought a great fight and I will not doubt his punch again.
    
    As for Foreman, I'll say this - if he had fought Douglas last night, or
    Tyson in Tokyo - he would have had a great chance at winning. If
    Holyfield comes flying in expecting a quick KO, or gets careless like
    Douglass did last night, then Foreman will blast his butt into
    Dreamworld. Foreman can still HIT. He may be stronger than he was when
    he retired. 
    
    Another factor is his workload. He's fought Stiffs Anyomous, but at
    least he's been busy. Too many fighters fight once or twice a year -
    Buster Douglass' worst mistake was not staying active. 
    
    On the negative side, Foreman didn't have great stamina at 25 - how can
    anyone expect him to have it at 40 ? Granted, Archie Moore is training
    him (the most amazing fighter in history, IMO), and he's a wiser man
    and fighter - but I have to believe if Holyfield or Tyson takes their
    time, Foreman can and will be worn down, and eventually KOed.
    
    Doc

    re .412
    
    I suspect The Bibe is a promoter at the Ceasars's Hotel In The Sky. I'm
    equally certain that :
    
    1) Nobody gets taken to the cleaners.
    2) All fights are exciting.
    3) Sugar Rim (tm) Lennid (tm) is not welcome ! :-)
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. This is probably the best boxing discussion we've had since the
    Bibe "joined the majority" ... I hope it continues ....

    I saw Foreman on CNN with Nick Charles, and he was hilarious!!!
    He said the problem with Douglas was that he came into the fight 
    too light!!!  Should have weighed 265-270 and just leaned on that
    little guy and pushed him around.  George said he's gonna be the
    heavweight champion for all the over 40 guys, all the bald guys, 
    all the fat and slow guys.  He's gonna train on hamburgers and 
    cheeseburgers and shakes.  I loved it!!!
    
    NAZZ

    I like mine with lettuce and tomato,
    Heinz 57 and french-fried potatoes,
    Big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer,
    Well, good God almighty, which way do I steer ...
    
    From a cheeseburger in paradise.
    
    					- Jimmy Buffett
    
    Bob Hunt

    I don't think Foreman deserves a shot at the heavyweight title. All the
    guys he's fought since coming back have all made more money selling
    advertisements on the bottom of their shoes than from the fights! ;-)
    But I gotta admit I love a guy with a sense of humor and fun. Obviously
    George isn't taking himself too seriously this time around. Besides,
    Holyfield's manager's line about Busted (They gonna roll him in and
    carry him out), Foreman's lines about weight have been hilarious.
    
    Cheeseburgie, cheeseburgie, Peepsi, no Coke!
    
    Reb

    Bob Hunt,
    
    The song is CHeeseburger IS Paradise....
    
    From the world's biggest Jimmy Buffett fan...
    
    HTH
    
    JD

    B.A.
    
    It is "Cheeseburger IS Paradise" although in the song, Jimmy does
    sing the line "CHeeseburger In Paradise"
    
    THe idea is that a Cheeseburger IS paradise to him, not that he's
    eating a Cheeseburger in Paradise (wherever that might be...)
    
    JD

    re1,
    
    Damn, I'm getting hungry! :*)
    
    B.A.
    

    I was happy to see Evander Holyfield knock out James "Busted" Douglass
    in the 3rd round. Holyfield dominated the first and second rounds with	
    his jab and overhand right. I was suprised that Holyfield didn't work 
    the body more. The end result was he didn't need to. I have never seen
    a sweeter knock out. It was great!! Douglass made one big mistake and 
    that was trying to throw a right upper-cut. It seems Holyfield was just 
    waiting for him to try it. Douglass missed wildly with the upper and
    Holyfield rocked back and came forward with full steam and knocked
    Douglass into another state.  Douglass was lucky that holyfield missed
    with the left hook as he was falling. Because if Holyfield would have
    landed that left hook. Douglass's  kids would have came out backwards.
    I think Holyfield will be the champ for along time.  
    
                                        THE THRILL
    

    	Hell, why shouldn't Foreman fight for the title.  Worse stiffs
    than him got shots.  And with his 9 million dollars he's going to
    build a boy's home in Houston, which is why the comeback started
    in the first place.
    
    				/Don

      The way Sugar Rim gits shots at titles by just showing up, I'd say
    Foreman has more than earned a chance. I thought he was a jerk a
    coupla years ago for starting this 'comeback'. Now I like it and hope
    he wins.
                                  Denny

    Foreman has fought top ten contenders and now is ranked
    5th, so why doesn't he deserve his shot, I would like to see
    that fight, I would even like him to win!!!!
    
    Tony
    

                                               
    I think at his age, there's a possibility of eventual brain damage if
    Foreman takes a beating and doesn't go down at the first hint of
    trouble like Douglas did.  Foreman's amusing and funny and all that
    right now, but I don't give him a chance in hell of beating any of
    these legitimate younger contenders.  People talk about the incredible
    force of his punches, but the fights I've seen the handspeed didn't
    seem like it was there to me.  Who's going to let him wind up and clock
    them?  The long-shot hope that he could land a lucky punch doesn't seem 
    like reason enough to sanction a fight. 
    
    I like boxing, but Foreman-AnybodyGood is too much circus than sport.
    
    glenn
    

 >> there's a possibility of eventual brain damage if
 >> Foreman takes a beating 
    
    
    I thought brain damage was a prerequisite for getting in the ring.
    
    PJ

    AAAAAHHHHOOOOOOOGAH   AAAAAHHHOOOOOOGAH  AAAAAHHHOOOOOOGAH !!!!!!
    
    DESTROYER OFF THE PORT BOW!!!!!!
    
    
    DIVE DIVE DIVE DIVE DIVE!!!!!
    

    Alex Stewart - what a wuss ....

    Was that Captain Lou Albano in Tyson's corner?
    
    Stewart went down on Tyson's second punch thrown, at :06 of the first
    round.  After that, I was just rooting for him to make it through the
    first, to no avail...
    
    Dan

Some really crushing blows did Stewart in :-) Methinks Dave Stewart could have 
lasted as long as Alex Stewart did....

I'm sure the money was good though....


Metz

    >	Stewart went down on Tyson's second punch thrown, at :06 of the first
    >	round. 
    
    Sheesh, the Fresh Prince would have lasted longer than that... :-)
    
    
    py

    Roooolllingg bigtime Paul !
    
    "How can I say this and be discrete,
    
    Let's just say that [Alex's] bowels released ! "

    Tyson just signed with SHOWTIME for $120M. Seems he wasn't to happy
    with HBO.
    

    >Tyson just signed with SHOWTIME for $120M. Seems he wasn't to happy
    >with HBO.
    
    Actually Don King signed on with SHOWTIME.  And since he screwed with
    Tyson's mind so successfully, Tyson's locked up as well.
    
    Dan

    Best line of the weekend that I heard...
    
    "Hello and welcome to ESPN Gameday.  I'm Chris Berman and I'm here
    with Tom Jackson. Pete Axthelm, Fred Edelstein and Joe Theismann will
    join us later from Tampa and I'm already on my feat during this
    broadcast longer than Alex Stewart was last night..."
    

    ...and Berman was sitting down when he said it!
                           Denny

I just know Vince McMahon was behind this fight.  I just know it.

Boxing these days is beginning to have all the orchestration of a
WWF "event"...  Geez, you've even got George "Dusty Rhodes" Foreman
in the picture.  

If you watch wrasslin' for a while you get adept at seeing the plot
lines from a ways off, and now it seems boxing is the same way....

'Saw