Conference 7.286::sports_90

    Lufay,
    
    	I'm going to bust up some ducks/geese tomorrow!  It
    	should be about -10 where we hunt.  Can u say "Colder
    	than a well-digger's a$$?".
    
    And remember, don't shoot no Suzie's (mallard hens),
    
    Claybone

    Clay, this is the last weekend in NH for ducks, but geese are still
    open until the 30th.  We're supposed to get a decent drop of snow
    tonight into tomorrow morning, which will keep the birds down low
    for the morning.  Should be great action as the snow starts to slow
    down, especially near cornfields.  If I can get my car out of the
    yard, I'm a'going.  If not, I'm going next week.
    
    Mark.

    True Story:
    
    This past Thanksgiving a Texas family is getting ready for the holiday
    and to do some deer hunting.  Dad and the boys get up real early and go
    out.  They come back late in the day with a nice deer in tow.  The
    funny thing is, about 5:00 in the morning, Mom got up to use the
    bathroom, walked by a window and saw a big buck in their backyard at
    the deer feeder.  Mom goes out on the porch in her housecoat and shoots
    the deer.  Turned out to be a 13 pointer!  Dad and the boys only
    brought home a 10 pointer and took all day doing it.

Hey Claywadey, where you going??? all the lakes out east are froze over and 
the Birds are all gone.... I called out there yesterday....

Monty

    Hi Monteque!!!!
    
    	You think I'm going to tell you about my SECRET spot where
    	the water doesn't all freeze?  Hahahahahahaha!  Maybe for
    	a nominal fee............nah.  Maybe if you pledge allegiance
    	to the Broncos...............................................
    
    
    				NAH!
    
    	If you stop by and say pretty please with Jamie Lee Curtis on
    	top I'd consider telling you.
    
    a hunting we will go,
    
    Claybone

    Saturday's score:
    
    		Ducks 3    Clay 2 (greenheads that is)
    
    		Geese 0    Clay 0 
    
    
    		Ducks 9	   Clay's friend Jim 2 (also greenheads)
    
    		Geese 0	   Clay's friend Jim 0
    
    Mark,
    	   Both of us got our limit of ducks (100 pts. out here).  
    	   We had a little help from a major snow storm that came
    	   screaming out of the north.  I'm all done for this year
    	   even though the season runs til 1-1.  How'd you do?
    
    Claybone

    I had an opportunity to spend the Christmas weekend on a farm
    southwest of Durango. This particular farmer sets up hunting	
    packages for people from the east in search of mule deer.
    In one of the back rooms there were various photos of hunters
    with game taken in recent years.  In one picture there was a familiar
    looking face of a guy sitting on top of a nice 4 point mulie.
    A 'regards and thank you' note was followed by the signature of
    Jody Davis. He has been a regular there for about 5 years.
    
    BoB

    President Bush is expected to be taking alot of flack from animal
    rights activists as he spends his vacation on his annual hunting trip
    in Texas.

    >No - not the VP
       Too bad!
                                  Denny

>     Will he be hunting for Long-Horned Sheep in Texas?

Naw, Bush will be hunting for more ways to make himself
popular and look non-wimpy.

Dan

    Let me guess Dan, Noriega is your hero?
    
    JoJ

    JoJ, any victim or enemy of the Republican Party is Dan's hero.
    
    Silly person, you, for not realizing this.
    
    Mark.

    re: Mark
    
    I actually knew that. In fack...I'll bet Dan wants to give Noriega
    asylum in this country and raise some taxes so he can live the good
    life here.
    
    JoJ

Let's see.  We disregard our Constitution so we bring this
evil person to justice.  We plan to kidnap him and bring him
to the US.  It costs us probably a few billion dollars, a few
dozen young men's lives, a few hundred Panamanian lives,
billions of dollars in reconstruction we'll have to pay
Panama for years to come, AND we don't even get
Manny!  

And now we've set up another puppet government, and
we'll have to keep oh, about 50,000 troops down there
to make sure it's not overthrown. Probably another
few billion a year for that.

And George calls it a success, and the USA Today says
what a popular decision it was and George smiles.

Oh, and it wasn't so long ago that George as the head of
the CIA made sure Manny got all his power, even though
he knew there was drug running going on, and just a few
years ago Manny was fine because he was helping us
beat up Communism.

Dan	

    Noriega is a lowlife drug running scum that should be burned at the
    stake on main street in Panama City.
    
    I realize the LIBERALS would never approve of this but I'd bet money
    the majority in this country would.
    
    Dan, you are making alot of assumptions about money spent, money to be
    spent, and totally overlooking what this scumbag has done to promote
    drug trafficing.
    
    I just hope they go waste Ortega next.
    
    JoJ
    
    BTW - in what way did we "disregard our Constitution"?

    >Re:last 5 please take this to Soapbox on the node pare.. you will
    just love what they say in there...
    
      
               REK

    NO.

Gee, I'd rather hunt down some scum-sucking-drug-running-voodoo-practicing
hopped up dictator than quail.  Quail are such kind and gentle animals.

I have a serious question here, and while I'm sure there is a lot of
technical information regarding what kind of loads you're firing, I'd
like an 'average' kind of answer....

12 guage shotgun, modified choke....what's the effective range?

thanks,
Chainsaw

    Chainsaw,
    
    It's hard to answer that question in an "average" way....;^)
    
    Steel or lead?  2.75 or 3 inch shells?  Magnum loads?  Shot #?
    
    Claybone

    >Noriega is a lowlife drug running scum that should be burned...

...who got to his position of power with a special thanks to our
president, George Bush.  Who also doesn't EVER want to see
Noriega testify in American courts.

    >Dan, you are making alot of assumptions about money spent, money to be
    >spent, and totally overlooking what this scumbag has done to promote
    >drug trafficing.

There will be billions of American tax dollars spent because of this
fiasco.  Trust me.  If Bush wants the guy dead, why didn't he send
a small team of his CIA spooks out to get him?  Are they that
incompetent?  I'll answer the question.  No.  He could have done
that in the best interests of our country, but he had to set himself
up so he'll be more popular with this very manly decision.  And
this way our military system gets another shot in the arm.   It
wasn't looking good for our defense budget, was it.  The picture
just got a little rosier.

    >BTW - in what way did we "disregard our Constitution"?

Umm, "innocent until proven guilty", "beyond a reasonable doubt",
"act of Congress to institute a war", the entire concept of
self-determination.  You won't hear a constitutional scholar (of
which I'm not) defend this on any grounds.

    >I just hope they go waste Ortega next.

Bush should attempt to murder a legally elected president of
another country and bungle the whole thing and then tell 
us what a success it was?  If it works for you...

Dan

    
    three cheers for Dan he understands.....
    
    ;^)
    
    mike

    I was wondering if/when you'd comment, Mike!  :-)
    
    BTW, Dan, is it true that Georgie is too slow and cain't jump, and that
    Manny is better than most at his position (look at his rings!)?  :-)
    
    And there ain't no way that the Chainsaw will get through this week
    without a JN, let alone the whole year!  HAHAHAHAHAHA(tm)!  :-)
    
    Hawk

re: Chainsaw

I use #7's lead, 2 3/4".... It usually does the trick on the scaled quail

Monty

Okay...

I don't know a heck of a lot about shotgun ammo.  Let's say I'm
using buckshot (hey, there's a term I know...the old guy at the country
store with no teef and a pinch between his cheek and gums mentions that
a lot 8^))...  I don't know what number, and I'm using 3" shells...

Or better yet, why don't you wizards give me some approximate figures
for various loads...

I mean, suppose I wanted to bring down a wild dog at 30 yards...would
a 12-gauge with buck shot do the trick?  Will a 12-guage be more effective
at a longer range than a 10-guage or less?

Any answers will be appreciated.

Tanks,
Chainsaw

PS  Hey Hawk, just watch me ;^)

    'saw,
    
    	I'd use a rifle on the dog.  But, yeah, I guess buckshot
    	would do him in at 30 yards.  I only use 3" mag. shells when
    	I hunt.  Here's the breakdown:
    
    	game		steel(improved cyl.)		lead(mod. cyl.)
    	====		====================		===============
    	ducks		     #3 or 4                          #6
    	geese		     BB or #1	                      #2
    	dove/quail	     #7				      #8
    
    	Remington makes some good combinations loads (BB X 4 and 1 X 3).
    	I took a duck at 60 yards with steel #3's once.  That's a
    	long shot with steel though.  I think a reasonable range for
    	steel shot is 50 yards with duck and goose loads.  Sixty yards
    	is probably the max with lead (duck and goose loads).  
    
    Claybone

>>Umm, "innocent until proven guilty", "beyond a reasonable doubt",
>>"act of Congress to institute a war", the entire concept of
>>self-determination.  You won't hear a constitutional scholar (of
>>which I'm not) defend this on any grounds.
    
    In the first place, this isn't a war, all we did was send a bunch of
    muscle down there to get rid of the drug kingpin. And I don't buy this
    crap about innocent until proven guilty. There are numerous accounts of
    Noriega's involvement in drugs. Besides, the Constitution is for
    AMERICANS, or at least people living here, not for lowlife scum that
    attempts to poison the population of this country with his countries
    leading national product.
    
    Typical Liberal viewpoint, protect the criminal at the expense of the
    victim.
    
    JoJ

Yeah, unless we're talking about the actual "hunting" of Manuel, let's
not get into it.

I mean, if someone can show me a photo of Manuel on the hood of a jeep
with a bishops mitre on his head and blood running out of his ears,
then we can put it in here...

re the Shotgun...

Thanks for the info.  Right now I've got a .22, and it's great for varmints,
I certainly would want a little more firepower on the dog.  (From time
to time we have a wild dog pack problem in my area...occasionally they
get fairly close to my house...).

Having a little money to spend I was thinking of getting a shotgun to
compliment the .22, but instead I might just get a 30-30.

However, a shotgun would work better on burglar-insurgents I think 8^)

thanks,
Chainsaw

YO HO HO!!!!!

	I'M BACK!!  Seems like I haven't noted for a week! 

Noriega should be eliminated. We (the U.S.) have rights under International Law
to protect U.S. citizens AND the Panama Canal. The fact that it was the U.S.
who helped set him up is not a valid point. So what? Just because a mistake is
made doesn't mean it has to be perpetuated. The Fed Gov't probably gave Ted
Bundy student loans, too. So what?

	Noriega is a megalomaniacal, certifiable, sadist. His brain pan is so
scrambled he can't determine reality when it hits him in the face. He's
brutalized his own people, and done his level best to rape an entire country.
Assassinating him would have been best.... BUT... in keeping with OUR
CONSTITUTION.... we went after him within the structure and the strictures of
the law. We sent a very important message to some of these mouseketeer nations:
The U.S. is not there for them to use as a benevolent and somewhat foolish
doormat.

Mike J

Hey Franklin (you toofless sack of fertilizer!) How was your holiday?!

I thought I'd mention that your .22 is probably adequate for any dogs you might
want to slaughter. (There is a way to use their brains to tan the hides, so you
can make a dog jacket.... I think REK would probably be interested in learning
how to do this, as well).

As far as another rifle.... If you intend to get only one rifle, I believe the
30.06 is probably still the most versatile weapon you can own. It has the
widest selection of loads available right off the shelf, if you don't do your
own loading. There is everything from 150 - 220 grain loads in a wide variety
of soft point, nosler, boat tail, jacketed, semi jacketed, etc... and ballistic
tables for these rounds in practically every sporting goods store. It's a
perfectly adequate weapon for everything from gophers to moose. There is
also an accelerator round available. This looks sort of like a .220  Swift
round. It's basically just the 30.06 shell necked down to accomodate a .220
(.221-.223?) bullet, and with a plastic swedged collar which allows it to be
fired through the 30.06 barrel. I think these come in 90 and 120 grain over the
counter. HUGE muzzle velocity, flat shooting, and great for varmints.

Mike JN

    Wow!  I am truly amazed at the plethora of knowledge you guys exhibit
    about firearms, especially the different loads and the creatures best
    suited for each type of load.  One creature not mentioned, I noticed,
    is the female human type called a wife.  What kind of shell is
    recommended from a range of say, 2 yards to 50 yards?  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    For the female human, most guys prefer the six inch, maximum load,
    full rubber jacket fired at close range for best penetration and
    impact.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    -Dick

Accelerators are outlawed by the U.S. Gov.... If you can find them hang
on to them... they are worth about 2 to 3 times their worth...
And why are they outlawed???? You cannot take any rifleing from the slug because
of the plastic shell that goes around it... So you get the pitcher..;^)

Monty_who_has_shot_them_before_and_they_are_good_to_about_600yrds!!

    re .43
    
    	Falling_off_my_chairward!!
    
    	I prefer the 10 inch version with no rubber jacket...:-)
    	Semi-automatic is nice but the pump works great as well!
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

Regarding wife loads, there are a number of things to take into consideration.

	#1 of course is legal season, which only runs from Sept 1st thru
August 31st.

	Another criteria, as with other animals, is overall weight. Are we
talking about teddy bear class, fox, gazelle, moose, hippo, or what??

	Is it your intention to hunt strictly trophy, or do you eat what you
hunt??

	Do you intend to use the load on other game, or what?

	As with most other things, there is no `right' load, and your
individual talent with your specific weapon can be of crucial importance.

HTH
Mike JN

    
    In any case, be sure to know your gun.  A hair trigger can make
    for some sticky situations.  It is best to practice with some hand
    loads before getting into the heavy action.
    
    -Dick

    And above all, clean your weapon after using it.  There's nothing
    worse than debris in the barrel!  A wire brush soaked in solvent
    followed by a DRY patch should do the trick.........OUCHEEMAMA!
    
    amf,
    
    Claybone

       and what to do when the dang thing JAMS! Some people just whack
    em against a tree a coupla times.
       And remember, always shoulder your weapon, well, some of us can!
                                          denny

Well, I'm on four days and counting.

Several points:

	First, to Dan re Manuel vis-a-vis Bush putting him in power,
	and Bush putting him out of power:  Didn't you ever go with
	a girl, then when she turned out to be a class-A b*tch, dump her?  ;^)

	Second, thanks for all of the information on firearms.  I'll
	probably go with the rifle.  I was thinking about the shotgun
	for possible use inside the house also, but they do make such
	a mess of the walls when eliminating burglar-insurgent types.

	Third, I still want to know if the guage makes any difference
	in effective range, or if we're just talking about getting
	more ordinance delivered to the target.

	Fourth, I absolutely LOVED all of the replies about wife season
	and the weapon of choice.  However, don't forget it *is* a
	HAND gun, and as such, you need a permit to *carry* it....

Chainsaw

    Chainsaw,
    
    	Basically, the 10 gauge has a larger diameter barrel.  In
    	the last few years, I'm not exactly sure of the exact
    	year, they have been chambered for 3.5" shells.  The end
    	result is more lead pushed by more powder than a 12 gauge
    	shooting the same size shot with a 3.0" shell.  However,
    	this last year, a couple of manufacturers have come out
    	with a 12 gauge that shoots a 3.5" shell.  Confused yet?
    
    Claybone

Not really.  I'm just trying to keep a good handle on the components:

	You've got shot which is pushed by powder.  Since the 10 guage
	is pushing more shot with more powder, I figure that translates
	into more ordinance on target at a greater effective range.

	Am I right?  ;^)

Actually, what I'm gonna have to do is get down to the Blue Trail
Range in Wallingford, and try out a few combinations to see what
they do.

Then, when that burglar-type insurgent decides to insurge my house -- WHAMMO.
He'll get BlAMmed.

I am learning a lot guys.  Thanks,

Chainsaw

    You're partially right!  The choke has alot to do with how much
    of the shot is within target diameter at X range.  A full choke
    holds a tighter shot group than does a modified choke than does
    an improved choke than does a skeet choke.  The length of the
    barrel of the gun makes a difference too.  The shorter the barrel,
    the faster the shot group spreads out.  Hence, sawed off shot
    guns don't miss ;^)  at close range!
    
    Claybone

Okay, I'm starting to understand all this.

Thanks for all the help....

Chainsaw

    Hey Dan, If Noriega is so swell, how come the people of Panama had a
    big party when they found out he surrendered?
    
    re: Wife_Season
    
    Those replies to the wife_season comments were hillarious. In fack(tm),
    they are early candidates for the mythical note of the year.
    
    JoJ

    
    JosH, Dan never said Noregia was swell, he just pointed out that Bush
    SUCKS!!!!
    
    Shall we talk Paris and the pre-election deal for the Iranian Hostages?
    
    mike

	How are they going to find a jury of his peers?  :-)

Shouldn't be too hard to find some drug dealers in Miami.... ;^)


Anyone wanna take a stab at recommending a good manufacturer regarding
rifles?  

I know of several:  Marlin, Remmington.  I don't know too many others.
If you have a favorite, why?

tnks,
Chainsaw

>    Hey Dan, If Noriega is so swell, how come the people of Panama had a
>    big party when they found out he surrendered?

Jim, I've never had a kind word to say about Noriega, and you can look it up.
My complaint was with the motives and methods used to oust him and the
sheer hyporcrisy of the whole debacle, and in the aftermath countless
dollars wasted so our president can look like a tough guy and remain
popular in the eyes of the less senscient Americans.

Dan

    re -.1
    
    There won't be a trial, Mr. Ugly will cop a plea and do 5-10, then
    skate off to enjoy his Swiss (or Bahamas) bank account. A deal was cut
    despite the State Dept BS. We can't have Manny telling on Georgie, can
    we?

    And you can be damn sure that the CIA and the NSA aren't going to let
    Noriega get anywhere near the inside of a courtroom.
    
    Ol' Zit Face has way too much poop on American intelligence efforts in
    Central America.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Not to mention the needless loss of life, trying to get that bastard.
    
    
    
    
    Steve

Dan, you're nonsense in here is starting to get to me.  First you complain
that Bush didn't go down there and assasinate Noriega, which would be a clear
violation of American Law, then you complain that he sent troops down there
to topple his "government" that the OAS said "had no thread of constitutional
legitimacy", that had killed one American officer, fired upon his companions,
beaten another and his wife, and threatened to sexually assault her. The 
intervention was legal under the canal treaty and international law.  Manuel
had "declared that a state of war existed" between Panama and the US and then
proceeded to ACT like it existed by killing American Servicemen, fireing on
others, and placing  troops and weapons around the legal American military
instalations and aiming those loaded weapons at the American facilities there.

I can only imagine what idiocy would be spewing from your mouth if Bush had
chosen to just go down and have him assasinated.  Any thing to bash him or
just any old Republican.

	Ed^2

Ed, why are your title and note so disharmonious?

You've obviously worked it in your mind and can't accept another position.  
I've met Jim, and know he's more level-headed than to accept the
propoganda so readily, so I tried.

>I can only imagine what idiocy would be spewing from your mouth if Bush had
>chosen to just go down and have him assasinated.  Any thing to bash him or
>just any old Republican.

Idiocy never spews from my mouth.  I would have still complained about the
sheer hypocrisy of the motives of the assination (or kidnapping, which was
more what I had in mind), but been glad that it didn't cost the lives of
innocents or billions of dollars to clean up the mess.  26 innocent
Americans died so far in this effort.  Its only life, right?  And those Panamanian
lives and homes?  Expendable.  A 25-year old kid from a neighboring
town from where I live won't be coming home.  Bush did what was popular.

And what did George do when two months ago the Panamanians tried to
overthrow Noriega themselves?  George was too scared to act.  Couldn't
pull the trigger then.  Looked bad to the real Americans.

It's a tough job, and someone has to do it.  But why such a twit?

Dan

This is no longer a request.  It's a moderator demand.  Get this crap out of
SPORTS.  End of Noriega discussion.

j.

Yo `Saw,

	You asked about preferences re: firearms.

Leaving Weatherby, Colt-Sauer, Anschutz, and other weapons that run from
$1,000.00  to 10,000.00 +, and going with readily available and (relatively)
reasonably priced weapons, I'd say my favorites are:

	Shotgun -  Ithaca pump - I like it mostly because it ejects out of the
                                 bottom, and can be used by right handers or 
                                 left handers (my son) equally as well.

	Rifle _Browning Bolt Action: I just love this gun to pieces. I can
shoot factory ammo at two hundred yards and cover up five shots with a quarter.
It also has a nice big claw for an extractor, and I've never had a round hang
up when I tried to eject it. Ruger also has a good sized extractor. Remington
has a little bitty extractor, and I don't trust it (I even heard they were't
allowed in Africa because of this, but I don't really know if that's true or
not). Winchester, I'm not sure how they are anymore. I had one once a long time
ago, and most of it had been stamped instead of machined, and it was a pretty
shoddy piece of crap, so I've never owned another one.
    
    
Mike JN

Mike, you brought up a good point I hadn't thought of.

I'm left handed, but I think I shoot right handed (use my right hand
to pull the trigger).  Somehow, trying to shoot from the other
side feels foreign.  Pistols I shoot with my left hand though....

And I'll echo T's question:  price on the Ithaca???


Thanks,
Chainsaw

    
    

	I'm not sure of the price. I would expect competitive. I've had mine
for 20 years. When I buy a weapon, I have several friends with FFL's, so I
usually just figure what I want, and order through Shotgun News. I've saved
hundreds of dollars this way.

Re: shooting.... right vs left

	You should determine which is your dominant eye, and shoot that way. An
easy way to do this is:

Hold a pencil up in your hand at arm's length, shut your left eye and sight
with your right eye through the pencil on something (a target) 10+ feet away.
Open your left eye. Did the pencil move off the target? If it didn't, your
right is the dominant eye, if it did, your left is your dominant eye......
shoot accordingly.


Mike JN

	      		    THE DEER HUNT
 SATURDAY

1:00AM		Alarm Clock rings.
2:00		Hunting partner arrives, drags you out of a warm bed.
2:30		Throw everything except the kitchen sink into pickup.
3:00		Leave for deep woods.
3:15		Arrive back home, pick up gun.
3:30		Drive like hell to get to the woods before daylight.
4:00		Set up camp, forgot the %%*&##! tent.
4:30		Head into woods.
6:05		See 8 deer grazing.
6:06		Take aim and squeeze trigger.
6:07		Click !!
6:08		Load gun while watching deer go over the hill.
8:00		Head back to camp.
9:00		Still looking for camp.
10:00		Realize you don't know where camp is.
NOON		Fire gun for help, eat wild berries.
2:15PM		Run out of shells, 8 deer come back to close range.
2:20		Strange feeling in stomach.
2:30		Realize you ate poison berries.
2:45		"Rescued"
2:55		Rushed to hospital to have stomach pumped.
4:00		Arrive back to camp.
4:30		Leave camp to kill deer.
4:35		Return to camp for shells.
4:40		Load gun, leave camp again.
5:00		Empty gun on squirrel that's bugging you.
6:00		Arrive back at camp, see deer grazing in camp.
6:01		Load gun.
6:02		Fire gun.
6:03		Score bulls-eye on pickup truck.
6:05		Hunting partner returns to camp dragging deer.
6:06		Repress strong desire to shoot partner.
6:07 		Fall into fire.
6:10		Change clothes, throw burned ones into fire.
6:15		Take pickup and leave partner and his deer in deep woods.
6:25		Pickup boils over, hole in block.
6:26		Start walking.
6:30		Stumble and fall, drop gun in mud.
6:35		Meet bear.
6:36		Take aim.
6:37		Fire gun, blow up barrel plugged with mud.
6:38		Smell offensive odor emitting from pants.
6:39		Climb tree.
6:39		Bear departs, you wrap the %%*&##! gun around tree.
MIDNIGHT	Home at last.

 SUNDAY		
Watch football game on TV while slowly tearing up license into little
pieces, placed in envelope and mail to game warden with clear instructions
on where to place it.

    
    Well, as long as OURGNG::SPORTS is OUTTA::CONTROL this afternoon,
    I gotta ask a hunting question:
    
        How many woodies are you allowed to shoot during duck season?
        Is there a daily limit as well as a season limit?
    
    Markie, can you help an enquiring mind?
    
    Thanks, 
    
      -Dick
    

    The only restrictions (in NH) that I can recall are 3 ducks per
    day, only 1 of which can be a Black (drake or hen) or a Mallard hen.
    This means a hunter is entitled to up to 3 Wood ducks.
    
    Mark.

I heard that there is a Hunting Club in Montrose Co. that is going to have a
open contest for Prairie Dogs. Your allowed 50 rounds of your choice of Ammo. 
Howitzers not allowed. 
Prizes awarded for most kills 
Least kills.


This is causing quite a stir among the Humane Society types. 


Jeff

    	Gotta love them Humane Society types.  They could walk past
    someone bleeding in the street and not even know they're there,
    but let some smelly pigeon get clipped by a taxi cab and they're
    calling their congressman.
    
    				/Don

Very simple solution to those little tunnels.

First, you get yerself a buncha John Hendry Mutant Ninja Action
figures in the American Desert Kamikaze Jihad outfit.  (You know, little 
Rising Sun headband on their haids and all).

Then, you put a leetle bit of C-4 on each one, and put the special
Ninja commemorative patch on the C-4.  Then, dump them into the 
holes.

When all are planted, hit your remote controlled radio detonator.

Any "dogs" over 50 that you get, just pass out to the noters that
come and watch....

I'll bet they get a real BLAM outta this one...

'Saw

    
    Didja ever see that game in the amusement parks called "Whack-a-mole"
    where you take a padded sledge hammer and try to hit the little
    sumbitches as they pop up on the panel in front of you?  The one
    with the most bops wins a paper lei or a plastic whistle for his
    efforts and his fifty cents.
    
    Now if people don't like other people shootin' varmints, they could
    take this game out to the desert where people with cartoon-sized
    mallets could stand in the middle of a populous prairie dog town
    and bonk away for fun and prize money.  No shootin' involved, but
    it is important that the little buggers be given an ample supply
    of aspirin after the day's activity.
    
    I will definitely recommend this to the International Olympic Committee
    should they decide to expand the games beyond the limits of Baffroom
    Water Sports.
    
    Hopefully, prarie dog whomppin' will not be outlawed before this
    becomes an international event.  If prairie dog whomppin' is outlawed,
    only outlaws will whomp prairie dogs!!!!!!  BLAM!! I mean BASH!!!
    
    -Dick
    

    
    If chokin' the chicken is outlawed, only outlaws will choke their
    chickens!!!
    

    I've been told that applications (Colorado 1990 hunt) for 
    cow elk and doe permits will be available at the DOW (here in CS) 
    on Monday (07-Apr-90).  I think they have to be turned in by
    June 1, 1990 so you'd better get with it!
    
    Claybone

>    I've been told that applications (Colorado 1990 hunt) for 
>    cow, elk and doe permits will be available at the DOW (here in CS) 
         
    	You cain hunt cow in Colorado?   I guess it may get a little
    tricky trying to corner one of the suckers in a field, unless you
    tip it over of course.  8^)
    
    sean

    
    Help conquer high cholesterol. Shoot a cow!
    
    

If you miss, however, it could be an udder disaster...

    	curd you please elaborate on that?

    You guys are really milking this one!

We cud be, but by the time we're done, there'll only be
ruminants left....

    Shooting cows is really fun, if you get it right you can really cream
    it!

    
    Notice *I* didn't lower my usual high standards, by jumping in
    here with bloody-awful puns and jokes, particularly about cows.
                                    
    Dickster
    

    cheese you guys! That's enough. 

    	Troughing hard not to laugh at that one, dude.  This bovine
    assualt is moooving places.  Cheesus!!!

>    on Monday (07-Apr-90). 

You really Boned this one Clay!!!!
Have any cow pie in your eye???   ;^)



Monty

    Awright ya bunch of nimrods.......
    
    I jest new one of youse was gonna do some creative editing wif 
    my note.  Anyway, Monty was right.....it's the 7th of May, 1990
    that they will be available..........sheesh!  Thised is the LAST
    time I try to do a public service to this bunch of freakin'
    lunatics.
    
    Claybone

    Don't forget to bring your red ball with you Claywad.
    
    Mark.

   	YAHOO! etc.

   Just got word that my new gun has arrived. I ordered a Thompson
   Contender in 7mm TCU (I call it a Seven Mama T'Koo). I got the 10" BBL
   so I can use it in silhouette. I also ordered a 14" BBL in the .223 I
   figger I can use the .223 for varmint. Big Suze (my true love) is going
   to buy me a scope, so I'm getting a 7x Burris Parallax scope with
   target knobs to mount on the .223. I've been collecting up powder,
   brass, bullets, primers,  etc., and plan to do some loading this week
   yet, and maybe this weekend go blow up some targets.

   Keep on chootin', man
   Mike JN

    Congrats on the new arrival, Mike.  I just landed me a brand spanking
    new Ruger GP100 in a .357 Mag.  Cain't wait to plink some silhouettes.
    
    Mark.

   Thanks Mark... nice weapon you picked up yourself. Let me know how ya
   do with it. I've been thinking of maybe a .41 Mag (like an N frame
   Smith) or maybe a Dan Wesson. I'm a little leery of the .357 on those
   200 yd rams.

   Mike JN

Gee, I just obtained a bazooka.  I'm really excited about it, and
in fact, I've been sporting a woody all day just thinking about
it.

When I get home tonight I'm going to load up and hunt woodchucks, and
I cain't wait for deer season to open.

Do I need to follow any special precautions when I got hunting with
my bazooka????

Deen to wonk wif some shlep,
Chainsaw

    
    
>Do I need to follow any special precautions when I got hunting with
>my bazooka????
 
    Yes.  Don't ask your huntin' buddy to stand behind you to spot your
    shots.
    
    Dickster
    

    Frank BABY,
    
    	You may want to drop to a slightly smaller caliber
    	weapon if you care to eat ANY of what you happen
    	to hit....:^)
    
    Claybone

    >>	You may want to drop to a slightly smaller caliber
    >>	weapon if you care to eat ANY of what you happen
    >>	to hit....:^)
    
    Claybone, 
    
    I'd think he'd wanta drop to a smaller claiber weapon if he wants to
    FIND anything he may hit!!!!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

   Franksaw Chainway!!

   Huge congrats on the Bazooka AND the woody!!

   Is it an honest to dog WWII bazooka, or a 3.5 rocket launcher, or a
   LAAWS rocket, or what?

   Whatever.... don't pay any attention to these jealous french types.
   Wave your private parts at their aunties. A bazooka is an excellent
   caliber for deer (or dinosaur for that matter). You should have a great
   time (and save a few shreds of venison for me).

   Mike JN

Well, dudes, I actually have dropped some caliber.

I used to have one of those nifty government issue Bradley
Hunting Vehicle, with the gyroscopically stable cannon on
the top.

Man, that thing was great.  I could cross ponds, where before I
used to have to walk around them.  I could bring down an entire
herd of deer with a few shots.  The only problem was I could
never find any game!  I don't know why.

So then I traded that in on an F-14, but I had problems hitting
ducks with those Sparrows.

So, I traded that in on an M-79 grenade launcher.  That was excellent
for bonking gophers, but not so great for deer.

So, I got rid of that and got an M-60 machine gun.  That worked
really well for a while, but the ammo was expensive, and I kept
picking bullets out of my deer while I was eating.

So, I traded it for the Bazooka.  I hope  this works out!

thanks for all the shlep!
'Saw

    Frankie,
    
    	Get yerself a flame thrower.  You can kill & cook your
    	game at the same time!
    
    Claybone

    
    	Claybone has drawn doe (deer) and cow (elk) tags!
    	Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah.......
    
    	:^)

Figures Claybone would enjoy shootin Women.  :*O

Hush now Jeffy babe,  I drew the same.....Just wondering what happened to 
the antelope licenses....

	Ed^2

Meanwhile, in Connecticut, it will be extremely interesting to
see just how they regulate the various seasons this year.

For the first time in a long, long, time we're are literally overrun
with wildlife.

I've seen a plethora of road kill this year like I've never seen
before, predominantly racoons and woodchucks.  I've also seen
deer in places that I've never seen them before.

Just recently, I had a buck in my back pasture.  Now, I've seen
plenty of does out there in broad daylight, but I'd never seen
a buck.

Perhaps the State will get smart, and open the season up a bit.
I'd hate to see all these animals starve this winter.

'Saw

    Congrats, Clawad and Ed^^2.  Got my doe permit application in last
    week for Maine.  The drawing takes place late August.
    
    Frank, regarding the plethora of road kills and abundance of game,
    maybe the California voters would be interested in seeing what happens
    when effective game management practices such as hunting cease to
    exist.  I hear that hunting in the state of California is in jeopardy.
    
    Mark.

    > Just recently, I had a buck in my back pasture.
    
    'Saw, did you get up on a step ladder, or did she submit to
    "missionary"?
    
    Schlep pis.
    
    Hawk

    Jeffrey,
    	
    	Don't worry.  I'll be totin' a buck license too (shaddup Hawk ;^) 
    ).  It all looks the same wrapped up in my freezer anyway!
    
    Ed^2,
    
    	I never miss........of course I always wait for a good shot  ;^).
    
    Markie,
    
    	I seem to have misplaced the red balls I bought.  Got any extra
    	you can bring out on your next trip to CXO?  
    
    Claybone

   Ed^2 and Claywad.

   	This should be a good year. I didn't put in, because I wasn't sure
   whether I'd be able to go up this year. If I can, I'll probably just
   pick up buck and bull tags.

   	There are a ton of deer right now, more than any other year.
   (Right now, the people who are trying their damnedest to see that
   nobody ever shoots a deer, are trying to figure out where all the
   mountain lions are coming from that are scaring the hell out of them
   and eating the occasional [ slow ] dog). I sometimes wonder how these
   people have survived to adulthood with less brains than the gods gave
   rutabaga.

   Mike JN

    >Frank, regarding the plethora of road kills and abundance of game,
    >maybe the California voters would be interested in seeing what happens
    >when effective game management practices such as hunting cease to
    >exist.  I hear that hunting in the state of California is in jeopardy.
    
    Hmmm, so now hunting is being foisted upon the public as "effective
    game management", is it?  Good euphemism for killing dumb beasts for
    sport.  Ever heard of nature?  It used to be an "effective game
    managemnt" practice as well.  Will California vote it in?
    
    Dan

    hey Dan, when's the last time you ate a steak? Did you enjoy it?
    They kill those dumb beasts for fun...
    
    HTH

    < Note 40.127 by HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Thank you, LuFay" >


>    Hmmm, so now hunting is being foisted upon the public as "effective
>    game management", is it?  Good euphemism for killing dumb beasts for
>    sport.  Ever heard of nature?  It used to be an "effective game
>    managemnt" practice as well.  Will California vote it in?
>    

    Dan, yes, I've "heard" of nature.  And you're right.  It *used*
    to be an effective game management practice.  However, with the boom
    in recent years in housing development, there's more wildlife
    competing for less resources.  The results can be devastating, as can
    be seen in places like Pennsylvania and your home state of New Jersey. 
    Witness the amount of road kills in the greater Parsippany and
    Princeton areas.  Take a cruise along I80 through Pennsylvania.
    Read up on the the outcrys of cruelty levied by the folks living
    near Cranes Beach in Ipswich, MA., when a controlled hunt was proposed
    as a means of reducing the herd size.  And then take an evening stroll
    along Cranes Beach and see for yourself the sorry state these deer
    are in.
    
    Instead of attacking hunters who attempt to harvest a biologically
    pre-determined amount of animals for personal consumption, take
    issue with the land developers and real estate moguls who see the
    over-exploitation of land as a profitable venture.
    
    Regarding my own personal reasons for hunting, I've said it to you
    before and I'll say it again.  I don't hunt "for the sport of it".
    I hunt because I prefer the taste of wild game to domestic meat
    and poultry.  I don't shoot anything I wouldn't eat.  I'm legally
    entitled to shoot other game such as bear, and if I obtained a permit,
    moose.  
    
    Because I don't particularly care for bear meat, I wouldn't shoot a 
    bear.  I've passed up easy kill shots on bear, so don't make gross 
    accusations regarding killing for sport.  As for moose, well suffice 
    it so say that I wouldn't kid myself into thinking that I could
    eat 700 pounds of meat.  I don't even have sufficient storage space
    to keep it.  Therefore, I don't apply for moose permits.
    
    Listen, I realize you've had an axe to grind with hunters, and you
    raise many interesting questions regarding the ethics of hunting.
    I find myself questioning these ethics from time to time myself.
        
    However, when I see people attack hunters while thinking nothing
    of throwing a live lobster into a pot of boiling water, or seeing
    these same people eat store-bought chicken or meat, or see these
    same people wearing nice new leather shoes, I can only sigh at the
    hypocrisy of the anti-hunting movement.
    
    Just because you don't see a cow or a chicken or a pig get slaughtered
    for human consumption doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

    Mark.    

Going along with what's been said, is another problem man has
created, and that's eradication of natural predators.

For instance, the wolf population has been eradicated in many
areas where it once flourished, mainly because man has moved in.
Now, naturalists want to re-introduce the wolf into its former
natural areas, and many ranchers complain.

Many types of predators that used to exist in my area (bobcats etc)
are no longer there either.

Personally, I would rather see responsible hunting than seeing
deer starving to death.  My most favorite answer would be to
reintroduce as many predators back into the habitat as possible, but
all the namby-pamby-yuppy-wimps would complain.

BTW, we are totally overrun with "critters" this year.  Since
I've had my wolf very few critters have ever come into the yard (as
he marks his territory fairly well).  However this year, we've had
a bunch, and he's killed two or three varmints himself.


On the whole, it's another example of man taking something that used
to work, and totally mucking it up....

'Saw

    re .129:
    
    >                           ...The results can be devastating, as can
    > be seen in places like Pennsylvania and your home state of New Jersey. 
    > Witness the amount of road kills in the greater Parsippany and
    > Princeton areas.  Take a cruise along I80 through Pennsylvania.
    
    Never mind Pennsylvania or New Jersey, take a drive down any Mass. or
    NH road.  I've seen more road kill in the past year than in the
    previous five.
    
    
    py

    Good point, Paul.  I was referring to deer in particular.
    
    Mark.

    There are more white tail deer in the U.S. today than at any previous
    time in history.

    
    Read something recently about Mass. opening up the Quabbin reservoir
    to hunting on a limited basis, due to overpopulations of deer. 
    Actually it is not so much a matter of thinning out starving deer,
    but the overbrowsing of the watershed is having an impact on the
    water quality.  The deer are eating all the new growth, and in time
    there will not be enough protection from the runoff from surrounding
    areas.
    
    For those outside Mass., the Quabbin was created I believe back
    in the thirties by building dams and flooding five former towns
    in Central Mass.(Dana, North Dana, Prescott, Enfield, and I-forget.)
    One "side effect" was the creation of a beautiful wildlife sanctuary
    which has been used to restore wild turkey's, Coyoties, bobcats,
    and bald eagles (Cougar sightings are, I believe, still unconfirmed.)
    This area also serves many an avid fisherman looking for some hefty
    trout and landlocked salmon.
    
    From what I read, the hunt will be controlled by limiting the number
    of hunters, and assigning them to a certain area.  And in order
    to keep vehicles out, the State will personally bring
    the hunters to their designated area.
    
    "Dick, now I want you to get yer shotgun, and we're gonna put you
    in this here vehicle, and drive you to a remote section of pristine
    territory that is literally over run with deer.  Think you can handle
    it?"
    
    "Um....will you be bringing out any coffee and doughnuts in case
    I get hungry?  O.K., throw me in the briar patch...I'll manage."
    
    Dickster
    

    Amen Lufay!  Preach it!

    
    Hunting is NOT in danger in California.  What you are hearing is more
    propaganda from the hunting lobby (read:NRA) because bobcat hunting (an
    endangered species in California) was banned.  In typical fashion the
    hunting lobby blew this all out of proportion and said that all hunting
    in California will soon be banned.
    
    Bruce

    Bruce, I didn't claim my (lack of) knowledge of the California issue
    as gospel.  I just said I heard it that way.
    
    BTW, the NRA is *not* a hunting lobby.  You should choose your sources
    better.
    
    Mark.

   Most of the people who gripe about hunting don't seem to realize that
   the money from hunting licenses is almost the only source of income for
   wildlife and environmental programs. That's right! Hunter's dollars pay
   for non-hunting programs, wildlife refuges, state park management, and
   a lot of other things. I wonder how most Sierra clubbers would like
   coughing up $16 every time they wanted to spend a little time in the
   woods.

   Mike JN

    >Instead of attacking hunters who attempt to harvest a biologically
    >pre-determined amount of animals for personal consumption, take
    >issue with the land developers and real estate moguls who see the
    >over-exploitation of land as a profitable venture.
    
    I didn't attack hunters, and I have taken issue with land developers
    and real estate moguls who over-exploit the land.  And I will speak my
    piece and state my opinion when I see hunters shamelessly refer to
    their cruel hobby as "effective game management".
    
    >I don't hunt "for the sport of it".                     
    >I hunt because I prefer the taste of wild game to domestic meat
    >and poultry.  I don't shoot anything I wouldn't eat.
    
    I remember and I believe you.  And you have also stated for me that
    "effective game management" is *not* one of the reasons you continue to
    practive this hobby.  "Effective game management" is an obfuscatory
    excuse that the NRA (and I know of few greater evils) has been
    shoveling out.
    
    >However, when I see people attack hunters while thinking nothing
    >of throwing a live lobster into a pot of boiling water, or seeing
    >these same people eat store-bought chicken or meat, or see these
    >same people wearing nice new leather shoes, I can only sigh at the
    >hypocrisy of the anti-hunting movement.    
    
    Yes, you are correct that their are degrees of cruelty to animals and a
    hunter such as yourself is far from the worse.  But your examples are
    not well chosen.  A live lobster has an extremely limited nervous
    system and immediately (within a second) goes into shock in boiling
    water.  He stops feeling.  The vast majority of commercial butchery is
    not a pleasant picture, but there have been great strides made towards
    doing things more humanely.  Most killing is done instantly.  Not so
    with hunters and their far more insidious cousins, fur trappers.
    
    Dan

    >BTW, the NRA is *not* a hunting lobby.  You should choose your sources
    >better.
    
    He's right, Bruce.  The NRA is primarily a gun manufacturers lobby. 
    There is nothing the gun manufacturers are more concerned with than a
    drop in the demand for guns, and many don't care what they are used for
    after that.  The problem is that the NRA is practically, if not
    definitely, our country's most wealthy and powerful lobbies, and has
    effectively co-opted other groups, such as many hunters, into their
    fold.  An ignorant sportman (another euphemism, but one most will
    understand) will readily identify with the NRA's mass marketing
    techniques, even if it's real policies might horrify him.  The NRA will
    easily count many members who have no idea what the real political
    agenda of this origanization is.
    
    Dan

Actually, when done responsibly, hunting is a more humane way
of killing an animal than when some predators kill the animal.

I don't hunt, (except with my camera) and so I'm not familiar with
a lot of techniques, but I'd reason that a good clean headshot
is a pretty human way of bringing an animal down.

I've watched my wolf kill, and I from that I tend to think that with
smaller game they're a pretty "humane" predator.  (Basically two quick
shakes and the thing's neck is broken).  I'm not sure about how
wolves are with larger animals, but I'm pretty sure they go for the
throat.

But, there are other predators out there (coydogs and wild dogs) that
are pretty cruel when they kill....

Not that I really care too much, but I'd rather see an animal hunted
responsibly than starve though....

'Saw

>Actually, when done responsibly, hunting is a more humane way
>of killing an animal than when some predators kill the animal.
    
    I take exception to this.  I agree that the animal can feel more pain
    in the chance that the hunter's bullet injure the right portion of the
    brain.  But their is more to "humane" than pain.  Aside from a certain
    head-in-the-sand religious faction, most people accept the theories of
    Charles Darwin as they extend to evolution of species.  Natural
    predators encourage species to get stronger, enabling them to adapt to
    changing environments and survive.  SUccombing to a natural predator is
    nature's way of indicating that an animal is too weak for the gene
    pool.
    
    It's worked pretty well for a few million years or so.
    
    Dan

>    I didn't attack hunters, and I have taken issue with land developers
>    and real estate moguls who over-exploit the land.  

	Perhaps "attack" is a bad choice of words on my part.  I meant 
	"criticize", but in this context it means the same thing.  In my
	eyes you were taking issue with hunters being a positive impact
	on game management.  Let's hear *why* you don't see hunting as an
	effective game management practice.

	BTW, I applaud your stance on land exploitation.

>    And I will speak my
>    piece and state my opinion when I see hunters shamelessly refer to
>    their cruel hobby as "effective game management".

	You're perfectly entitled to speak your piece.  No one said you 
	were not.  However, I noticed you (perhaps) conveniently failed  
	to comment on my arguments regarding road kills and wildlife over-
	population.

	Dan, what are *you* doing to prevent disease and starvation of deer
	and other animals?
    
>    I remember and I believe you.  And you have also stated for me that
>    "effective game management" is *not* one of the reasons you continue to
>    practive this hobby.  

	I never said it was not *a* reason.  It's not reason enough alone for 
	me to participate.  However, if I chose not to participate, I would
	not find fault with those that do, as I *do* see hunting as a nec-
	essary means of managing animal populations.

>   "Effective game management" is an obfuscatory excuse that the NRA (and I 
>   know of few greater evils) has been shoveling out.

	Well, I'll leave the NRA rathole out of this, as I'd like to keep 
	this related to Sports.

	As far as "effective game management" beign a so-called "obfuscatory
	excuse", nothing could be farther from the truth.  There have been
	many, many biological studies at prominent schools such as Penn
	State and Virginia that have shown the long-term damage to the
	gene pools for deer that have limited food supply.

	And even though you failed to respond the first time, I again use
	the ever-increasing rate of road kills.  People are being killed, 
	seriously injured and their cars are being damaged by the herds of
	deer that roam across roadways.

	Deer are starving.  Deer are mal-nutritioned.  Ever see a deer
	wintering yard after several weeks of snow and/or cold weather?
	I have, and it's gut wrenching.  Deer will have acres of forage
	only 100 yards away from their wintering area, but invariably stay
	put in the area they've chosen.
    
	So please tell my how regulated hunting doesn't help curb the 
	deer population?  And if it does, why isn't this considered 
	"effective"?  And if it's effective, why is it "obfuscatory"?

>    Yes, you are correct that their are degrees of cruelty to animals and a
>    hunter such as yourself is far from the worse.  But your examples are
>    not well chosen.  A live lobster has an extremely limited nervous
>    system and immediately (within a second) goes into shock in boiling
>    water.  He stops feeling.  The vast majority of commercial butchery is
>    not a pleasant picture, but there have been great strides made towards
>    doing things more humanely.  Most killing is done instantly.  Not so
>    with hunters and their far more insidious cousins, fur trappers.

	I won't argue about fur trapping, as I feel we may be in agreement.
	
	Hunters, on the other hand, must take it upon themselves to make 
	a responsible, well-placed shot that will bring as  quick and humane
	a death as possible.  Do all hunters make such shots?  Of course not,
	but like most large demographic groups, there are exceptions.  Special
	interest groups, such as hunters are no different.

	It's up to us (hunters) to educate each other and promote the humane
	and ethical harvesting of wild game.

	Gee, sounds like we need an organization that teaches hunter safety,
	responsible gun ownership and wildlife biology.

	Gee, sounds like the NRA.

	Mark.

>    >BTW, the NRA is *not* a hunting lobby.  You should choose your sources
>    >better.
>    
>    He's right, Bruce.  The NRA is primarily a gun manufacturers lobby. 
>    There is nothing the gun manufacturers are more concerned with than a
>    drop in the demand for guns, and many don't care what they are used for
>    after that.  The problem is that the NRA is practically, if not
>    definitely, our country's most wealthy and powerful lobbies, and has
>    effectively co-opted other groups, such as many hunters, into their
>    fold.  An ignorant sportman (another euphemism, but one most will
>    understand) will readily identify with the NRA's mass marketing
>    techniques, even if it's real policies might horrify him.  The NRA will
>    easily count many members who have no idea what the real political
>    agenda of this origanization is.

    Let's take this one to SOAPBOX, ok?
    
    Mark.    

    >Let's take this one to SOAPBOX, ok?
    
    I don't do SOAPBOX.  Too many extremes and far too many reactionaries.
    
    Dan

Dan,

You are clearly correct when you talk of predators culling out the
weak and infirm in a species.

I was referring to the act of killing itself.

But you raise a good point.  Wolves, which are much maligned creatures,
are not apt to pull down a healthy caribou, even in a pack.  The healthy
caribou is really too fast for a wolf.  Thus, wolves will pull down the
old, or the infirm.  (Many people don't realize this fact).


What is comes down to is that Man has really screwed up the environment,
and it's touch and go ( I think) whether or not is can be totally saved
at this late date...

'Saw

    Dan, discussion of the NRA doesn't belong in this file.  I'll gladly
    debate the NRA and other gun lobbying issues either by mail, SOAPBOX,
    and/or FIREARMS.
    
    I'd like to keep this topic on Hunting and anxiously await your
    rebuttal tomorrow afternoon.  
    
    Mark.

    Saw, excellent points on how predators will seek the weakest individual
    in the herd.  I was watching a Discovery a couple of weeks back
    and they had a thing on cats.  They showed the cheetah chasing down
    impalas in somewhere in Tanzania.
    
    Mark.

    
    Those cheetahs must be pretty fast to catch up to a Chevy.
    

The thing that amazes me is the fact that a wolf can run flat out
for distances up to ten miles (compare that with a dog who can go
flat out for about a mile) and yet they still have problems bringing
down healthy, strong game...

Truly amazing animals, with more human qualities than one would expect.

The food chain, and the way the individuals links fit together is
quite fascinating... too bad we've messed it up so.

'Saw

>    brain.  But their is more to "humane" than pain.  Aside from a certain
>    head-in-the-sand religious faction, most people accept the theories of
>    Charles Darwin as they extend to evolution of species.  Natural
    
    Balderdash!  Darwin rejected most of his theories and became part of a 
    "head-in-the-sand religious faction" in his dying days!
    
    Mike

	>Dan, what are *you* doing to prevent disease and starvation of deer
	>and other animals?
    
    Directly, very little beyond education of people who don't know any
    better and refer to hunting as "effective game management".  I spend
    little to no time beyond skiing vacations in areas where deer habitate.
    
    Indirectly, I contribute some money to organizations which work for a
    better environment, either through fund raisers or buying products
    (calanders, magazines, etc.).  I also have more heavily supported
    political candidates who agree with my opinions in this regard.
    
	>However, I noticed you (perhaps) conveniently failed  
	>to comment on my arguments regarding road kills and wildlife over-
	>population.
        
    This alarm you've raised over road kills has me puzzled.  Are we
    talking racoons and opossums here, or deer, moose, etc?  I travel quite
    frequently through some of the states you mentioned, and I haven't
    heard of this nation's calamity of deer storming the highways and
    killing innocent drivers.  Yes it happens occasionally I'm sure, but it
    hasn't reached epidemic proportions which signals a need for additional
    effective game management.
    
	>However, if I chose not to participate, I would
	>not find fault with those that do, as I *do* see hunting as a nec-
	>essary means of managing animal populations.
        
    Again, consider that I haven't called for an end to recreational
    hunting.  I concede that it does manage animal populations, but I
    contend that nature has a way of managing animal populations as well,
    and a much fairer way.  I have little faith that a hunting industry
    that has allowed itself to be co-opted by an insidious organization
    such as the NRA would willingly know when to let nature take over the
    job.  In times when overdevelopment and a lack of natural predators has
    markedly increased deer population, I will begrudgingly accept it as an
    ugly alternative.
    
    The picture you paint that if we didn't have these benificent hunters
    around to indiscriminately thin the herds, that we'd have highways full
    of diseased deer standing on tiptoe to fit more in is not an accurate
    one.  Nature *will* re-regulate the deer population (and health) in
    time.  Hunting will accelerate that process, yet do it randomly instead
    of the brilliant way nature has of dealing with the problem.
    
  	>People are being killed, 
	>seriously injured and their cars are being damaged by the herds of
	>deer that roam across roadways.          
    
    Give me relevant numbers, and comparisons to the same numbers in other
    years.  Is their a stronger correlation of accidental road death to
    cars on the road or the deer population?  What you have offered is too
    simplistic and incomplete.
    
	>Deer are starving.  Deer are mal-nutritioned.  Ever see a deer
	>wintering yard after several weeks of snow and/or cold weather?
	>I have, and it's gut wrenching. 
    
    I haven't.  I have seen people in much the same condition, living on
    the streets and begging for money for food.  Fairly gut-wrenching as
    well, but I don't propose their slaughter for sport.
    
 	>Deer will have acres of forage
	>only 100 yards away from their wintering area, but invariably stay
	>put in the area they've chosen.
    
    Are their any "effective game managers" who instead of killing the dumb
    deer bring it all that excess forage from the other area?  Not that I
    recommend such action.  If deer over-produce, they will starve, they
    will succomb to disease, they will be run over by cars.  If they do or
    if they don't, they will be shot.
    
    >And if it's effective, why is it "obfuscatory"?
    
    It's obfuscatory, because I believe that it's the vast minority of
    hunters who really place effective game management at the top of their
    list for the reason they go hunting.  It's obfuscatory because there
    are other, more humane ways of practicing effective game management. 
    And it's obfuscatory because one of the most reactionary, ugly and
    McCarthy-like organizations in this country spoonfeeds such bullshit to
    it's unwitting members who have no idea exactly what extremes its
    leaders go to to protect their narrow, inhumane, financial interests.
    
	>Gee, sounds like the NRA.
    
    Yep, that's the one.
    
    Dan

    >Balderdash!  Darwin rejected most of his theories and became part of a 
    >"head-in-the-sand religious faction" in his dying days!
    
    Modern science has had its say.  I don't wish to debate this topic.
    
    Dan

>    Modern science has had its say.  
    
    ...and is still left wanting!
    
    >  I don't wish to debate this topic.
    
    don't blame you, you've already bit off more than you can chew. ;-)

    
    The NRA led the debate against banning the hunting mountain lion (did 
    I say bobcat before?) hunt in California.  It seems they were rather
    upset that a bunch of Sierra Clubbers put in for the permits to hunt
    the few remaining mountain lions, and they ran a couple "editirial"
    spots on radio and TV, saying that this wasn't playing fair. 
    Eventually, the whole hunt was cancelled.
    
    Regardless of who was doing it, this is still a far cry from what
    someone (Mark?) said was the banning of all hunting in California.
    
    Bruce

Danno,  you are correct to say that nature WILL re-regulate the deer
populations when overpopulation occurs.  It will do it by a variety of very
ugly methodolgies.  Over time, the population numbers will look very much
like a sign wave.  It will be very similar to the sign wave produced by
game management techniques using hunters as one of the tools.  However,
it will have fluctuations that vary by SEVERAL orders of magnitude from
the hunter curve.  The highs will be about the same, but the lows will
approach zero populations in wide areas, and take decades to recover.  All
of that is with CONSIDERABLE damage to the gene pool.

So you are wrong....hunting IS a VERY effective game management tool.  There
are many aspects of game managment by hunting that you may be unfamiliar with,
such as limited female licenses, license restrictions by specific areas...etc.

Natural predation has a very limited impact on game herds, even when natural
predation has not been tampered with by human development and such.  The
primary natural tools for game population control are disease and starvation.
Those tools take out entire populations over as short a span as 3 months.

	Ed^2

>    Directly, very little beyond education of people who don't know any
>    better and refer to hunting as "effective game management".  I spend
>    little to no time beyond skiing vacations in areas where deer habitate.

	Dan, with all due respect, this is a glaring example why you shouldn't
	be preaching about the correlation bewteen hunting and effective game 
	management.  It appears to me that you are hardly qualified to advise
	on game management practices other than by your emotions, good inten-
	tions notwithstanding.

	I have spent literally thousands of hours in the field observing
	animal behavior, with and without a gun in hand.  I've spent 
	hundreds of hours reading on these subjects.
	
>    Indirectly, I contribute some money to organizations which work for a
>    better environment, either through fund raisers or buying products
>    (calanders, magazines, etc.).  I also have more heavily supported
>    political candidates who agree with my opinions in this regard.

	I hope you keep up the good work.  There are many hunters out there 
	who do the same.
    
>    This alarm you've raised over road kills has me puzzled.  Are we
>    talking racoons and opossums here, or deer, moose, etc?  I travel quite
>    frequently through some of the states you mentioned, and I haven't
>    heard of this nation's calamity of deer storming the highways and
>    killing innocent drivers.  Yes it happens occasionally I'm sure, but it
>    hasn't reached epidemic proportions which signals a need for additional
>    effective game management.

	I'm talking deer, but the same problem exists for many other animals 
	as well.  No, it hasn't reached what you call epidemic proportions,
	but road kills are a symptom of a larger and more serious problem of
	deer overpopulation.  The spread of Lymes disease and the damage to 
	farm crops are others.  

	Hunting as a game management tools is called for and necessary.
        
>    Again, consider that I haven't called for an end to recreational
>    hunting.  I concede that it does manage animal populations, but I
>    contend that nature has a way of managing animal populations as well,
>    and a much fairer way.  

	And if natural predators still existed in urban and suburban areas,
	I'd agree entirely.  However the facts show that nature cannot keep
	up with the expanding herds.  Thus, as you point out, hunting does
	help solve the problem.  

>    job.  In times when overdevelopment and a lack of natural predators has
>    markedly increased deer population, I will begrudgingly accept it as an
>    ugly alternative.

	The voice of reason has spoken.
    
>    The picture you paint that if we didn't have these benificent hunters
>    around to indiscriminately thin the herds, that we'd have highways full
>    of diseased deer standing on tiptoe to fit more in is not an accurate
>    one.  Nature *will* re-regulate the deer population (and health) in
>    time.  Hunting will accelerate that process, yet do it randomly instead
>    of the brilliant way nature has of dealing with the problem.

	See the above comments regarding the lack of natural predators.    
    
>    Give me relevant numbers, and comparisons to the same numbers in other
>    years.  Is their a stronger correlation of accidental road death to
>    cars on the road or the deer population?  What you have offered is too
>    simplistic and incomplete.

	I agree, my comments were incomplete.  I'll try and dig up some
	numbers at home.  I suspect that the road kills are due both to
	increasing numbers of deer and cars.
    
>    I haven't.  I have seen people in much the same condition, living on
>    the streets and begging for money for food.  Fairly gut-wrenching as
>    well, but I don't propose their slaughter for sport.

	Red herring, but point taken.    

>    Are their any "effective game managers" who instead of killing the dumb
>    deer bring it all that excess forage from the other area?  

	In the upper Michigan penninsula, wilflife managers have tried just
	that, with limited success.  Part of the problem in the northern 	
	range of the whitetailed deer is the amount of energy expended by
	the dominant bucks during the rut (mid to late November).  Often
	the buck will wander non-stop for a week looking for receptive does,
	expending much-needed body weight in the process.

	Does are carrying fawns during this harshest periods as well, so you
	see that the deck is already stacked against the deer herd in northern
	climates.  The mortality rate in northern tiers can exceed 40 percent.

	However, in milder climates, the winter kill is minimal and the size 
	of the herd proliferates.  Couple this with no real natural predators
	save for coyotes and wild-dogs, and the process becomes a positive
	feedback loop.

	Mark.

	>Dan, with all due respect, this is a glaring example why you shouldn't
	>be preaching about the correlation bewteen hunting and effective game 
	>management.  It appears to me that you are hardly qualified to advise
	>on game management practices other than by your emotions, good inten-
	>tions notwithstanding.
    
    Which is like saying: "without bathing in nuclear waste, Dan can't
    possibly understand its dangers.  I've bathed in it; I know."  I think
    I understand pretty damned well the correlation between recreational
    hunting and effective game management and I can draw a nice analogy to
    the correlation to ketchup and vegatables.
    
	>but road kills are a symptom of a larger and more serious problem of
	>deer overpopulation.  The spread of Lymes disease and the damage to 
	>farm crops are others.  
    
    This is a hollow claim.  Road kills are a problem of deer and cars
    attempting to cohabitate.  Overpopulated or underpopulated, this will
    still be a problem unless we fence in all of our nations roads.  Lyme
    disease is spread by ticks who are carried by many animals including
    deer, dogs and cats.  It is not isolated to the deer population
    
	>Hunting as a game management tools is called for and necessary.
    
    I have unhappily admitted it is called for.  You have offered no proof
    that it is necessary.  The human population is not in danger because of
    the deer population - most endangered populations are just that because
    of the human population.
    
	>Couple this with no real natural predators
	>save for coyotes and wild-dogs, and the process becomes a positive
	>feedback loop.
        
    The coyote population is in some danger as well because of ranchers who
    have taken the land and killed off coyotes because they would go after
    their livestock.  In his excellent book "Blue Highway", William Least
    Heat Moon wrote to the effect that America is being ruined by fences. 
    Where the land was once open and free (and unowned) herds of wild
    animals would graze at will.  As the land was bought up and alloted, it
    was settled and fenced in.  The herds have no where to go.
    
    I would only support hunting if it were necessary for sustenance or if
    the game presented a real danger to the human population.  I will
    always ignore the panics which are leaked by the NRA in incomplete and
    startingly innacurate chunks.  The taste for the meat can be satisfied
    in other ways, and you can be sure if there were a market for it, you
    could still get your fresh venison if hunting was not available to you
    as an option.
    
    Dan
                 

Re Lyme Disease:

	I know a tad about this, being a pet owner, living in a
	high risk area, and having done some research.

	Lyme Disease is carried by the deer tick.  Animals which
	host the deer tick are the deer, mouse and birds.
	
	Dogs are not really considered carriers, but are more often
	the victims.  The Deer tick does not live on a dog for
	long periods of time like it will mice, deer and birds.

	[BTW, Dog owners...there is now a vaccine available for your
	 animal against Lyme disease.  Check with your vet about it.]

	Lyme disease is a devasting sickness if unchecked.

	The deer tick is very tiny, and is not the wood tick, which is
	what you'd normally see on a dog.  

    Both Dan and Mark make good points.   I'll stay out of the thinly
    veiled religion/science arguements.
    
    As with any endeavor, there are good, knowledgeable, responsible
    hunters, which Mark and the others in this file seem to fall into.
    There are, unfortunately, many bad, unknowledgeable, irresponsible
    hunters also.   There are 'anti-hunters' (for want of a better term)
    that have well thought out arguements - and there are zealots who
    can't see there hand in front of their face.  I put dan in the former
    group.
    
    My uncle was a game warden in Pennsylvania for years.  His experiences
    would make both Mark and Dan gasp, of that I'm sure.  And I'm not
    just talking times he was shot at by poachers.   With many hunting
    areas in easy access of convenient transportation, it is possible
    to be a 'hunter' (I use the term loosely, in this case), without
    knowing much about the land, the animal which you are 'hunting',
    or about proper hunting techniques.   These yahoos can ruin the
    overall reputation of all hunters.   And not to bring back the NRA
    topic, but my uncle found these yahoos to be the staunchest allies
    of  the NRA.
    
    There are also those that fish that don't follow proper procedures.
    
    As responsible sportsman, it is your duty to report any improper
    instances of fishing or hunting.  
    
    I've seen deer withered by malnutrition - it isn't a pretty site.
    Effective game management includes culling the herd - which in this
    day and age, equals a responsible hunt.  The natural process of
    predatory culling does not work, because of man's influence on the
    diminishing of the predatory packs.   
    
    There is a distinction between sportsmand and hunters/fishermen,
    IMO.  People who kill for the sport of it, or to get trophies, are
    to me, like whale sh*t -  you can't get much lower.  Those who
    responsibly kill only what they will consume, are replacing the
    lost predator as herd culler.
    
    JD

    Great note, JD.
    
    Dan, I understand your position and respect your opinion.  I've
    stated mine.
    
    Let's just agree to disagree, otay?
    
    Mark.

    Thank you, JD, for what must be the definitive and unbiased (except
    maybe for the whale sh!t statement) note on this topic.  
    
    To sum, hunting IS called for and IS necessary.  And responsible states
    like Pennsylvania do the best job they can at regulating it.
    
    	--dan'l (who doesn't hunt [can't even kill a fly] but sees its
    	  	 importance in a legally controlled environment)
    

    Yeah dan'l, the whale **** statement wasn't neccessary.   I just
    happened to bump into a 'sportsman' yesterday who was bragging about
    the trophies he had in his house.  Seems he just cuts the head off
    and throws the rest away....arghhh
    
    JD

    Speaking of hunting trophies and removing just the heads ...
    
    I recall reading last year during the controversies over banning
    private use of semi-automatic weapons that several hunters claimed that
    nothing beats an Uzi or a Kalishnikov for removing the antlers from a
    moose carcass.
    
    Far superior to a hunting knife, they said ...
    
    Sick bastards, I said ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    You know, it always interests me when this discussion comes up, both
    here and in other files, that no one makes the obvious statement.
    
    Humans are predators.  Since caveman days, we have been the single most
    successful species of predator around.  So much so, that we now 
    *voluntarily* restrict our predation.  If we didn't, most of the other 
    species would now be extinct.
    
    It isn't pretty, and we try to cover it up with lots of rhetoric on
    both sides, but at bottom, it's the truth.
    
    A&W

    <Seems he just cuts the head off
    <and throws the rest away....arghhh
    <
    <JD


	JD, That is a FELONY in Colorado.

I don't have ANY problem with hunters who brag about the heads they have
on the wall......as long as they made good use of the rest of the animal.
By the Way...dog food is NOT good use.



Dan, just in case you were interested, here is the curve depicting natural
herd regulation, even with predation, verses a hunter controled regulation.

x= natural control
o= hunter controlled
			x			x			x
Maximum carrying       x x		       x x 		       x
Population	      x  x		      x	 x		      x
 		 o   xo	 x o   o   o   o   o x o x o   o   o   o   o x o
		o o xo o xo o o	o o o o	o o x o	oxo o o	o o o o	o o x o o
		   xo	ox   o	 o   o	 o x o	 x   o	 o   o	 o x o
		  x	 x		  x	 x		  x
		 x	 x		 x	 x 		 x
		x	 x		x 	 x		x
			 x	      xx 	 x	      xx
			 x	   xxx		 x	   xxx
			 x      xxx		 x	xxx
			 x   xxx		 x   xxx
			 xxxx			 xxxx

Zero Population  -------------------------------------------------------------

    JD, lets start a trophy rack for trophy hunters haids. I agree with
    you. I'm a hunter and I'm constantly telling people that "Yes, I eat
    most of the deer, and I *never* hunt for trophies."
    	BTW, Dan, I dont have any numbers, but last Friday I traveled down
    Rt. 81 from Binghamton NY to Scranton Pa., about 55 miles, and I saw
    7 dead deer on the side of the road. A state trooper told me that the
    D.O.T. picks up the deer every morning. So it seems that a lot of deer
    are being killed on our highways because of milder winters, fewer
    hunters, etc....
    
    				Rich
    

	I'm whale shit!  First 12lb+ large mouth I get is being mounted.

mc

   As it happens, I hunt, and am one of the people who eat what they
   shoot. But I have no quarrel with trophy hunters, as long as they heed
   the game laws. I get tired of everybody drawing lines:

   1) I don't hunt (but sure like beef and chicken) 
   2) I don't hunt, but I don't mind sinking a barbed hook into a fish's mouth.
   3) I hunt, but only game birds. I'd never THINK of shooting a deer. 
   4) I hunt deer and elk, but I'd never shoot an elephant. 
   5) I hunt anything, but always eat what I shoot. 
   6) I hunt for trophies, but I wouldn't think of eating broccoli.

   ETC.

   The vast majority of hunters are responsible. You don't outlaw
   automobiles because some people use them irresponsibly.... and you
   shouldn't outlaw hunting because there happen to be some irresponsible
   hunters. You punish those who abuse things.

   Hunting is fun. It can also be very challenging. And it serves a valid
   purpose. Even if a `better' method of game management were discovered,
   that is no reason to outlaw hunting. Those who don't wish to hunt
   should not be required to do so... but they should not be allowed to
   enforce their narrow views on others.

   PS. The statements reported by Bob Hunt are exceedingly ignorant (the
   statements he reported; not Bob). I can believe they were `attributed'
   to hunters, but find it difficult to believe that a hunter would say
   such a thing.

   For one thing there are many semi-automatic hunting weapons, made by
   Remington, Winchester, Ithaca, Ruger, Weatherby....  etc. The idea of 
   using them to `cut off' antlers is as preposterous as using a single
   shot weapon for such a purpose.

   Full assault weapons (automatics) are strictly controlled machine guns,
   and I would  be willing to bet that about the same number of animals
   have had their antlers cut off with assault weapons as there have been
   policeman killed by uzi-wielding drug dealers (one in the last ten
   years)... the assault weapon hysteria is a perfect example of
   irresponsible journalism (which is at least as detestable as
   irresponsible hunting).

   Uzi makes both an automatic and a semi-automatic. Most individuals get
   the semi-auto, because the controls and cost of the auto make it
   prohibitively costly. Kalashnikov was the individual who developed the
   Russian AK-47. When the term Kalashnikov is used, it invariably refers
   to the AK-47 Assault weapon (fully automatic) and my comments re:
   antlers stand. There are also a number of AK-47 `lookalike' semi-autos,
   and again, they are no different than any other semi-auto hunting arm,
   and would be ridiculous as an `antler removing device'.

    
    Good point, your first two paragraphs, Mike JN.  Hunters partaking
    in a legal activity don't need to justify their existence to
    non-hunters.
    
    Dickster
    

    To bring this to the lighter side (yes, there is one), all this hunting
    talk has reminded me of Blake Clark's One Night Stand on HBO recently. 
    Anybody see it?  He's the funniest commedian I've seen in a long time.
    
    Can't really do his routine justice, but some of it goes like this. 
    He and his brother are out in the Georgia woods hunting.  
    
    "So he pulls out his wallet and its camouflaged.  So I ask my brother,
    'Why you got a camouflaged wallet?'
    
    He looks at me, and I'm serious, he looks at me and says, 'I hunt.'
    
    'Yeah, you drop it out here and you're gonna hunt.'"
    
    	--dan'l

    I don't hunt but 8^)
    
    Seriously, I live north of Concord NH and will see approximately
    100 hunters every hunting season.  The game warden is constantly
    driving around looking for parked cars, so that he can investigate
    as to whether the hunters are doing every legal.  
    
    I've lived in that house for 8 years and have played in the woods
    during hunting season.  There is never an accident unless some stupid
    hunter kills himself.  The neighborhood dogs are more dangerous
    than the hunters on any given day and considering that it is an
    average of 1/4 mile between houses this says something.
    
    The people I know that hunt do so for food.  Each and every one
    of them has an extra freezer in the basement for storage of the
    meat.  Every single one of these hunters save hundreds of dollars
    in food cost by hunting and they (probably) enjoy hunting.
    
    I don't hunt and I will never hunt, but to abolish it due to
    misconceptions brought about by city living sc*m who don't have
    a clue as to what country living is about would be a real shame.
    
    The Wizard

I do my hunting with an Olympus OM-4T and a 65-200 mm zoom.  If I
had the $$$ I'd have a nice Zuiko 300mm lens or a 400mm.

But seriously, I have one question (and it's probably dumb).

You got your basic orange hunting stuff.  I assume hunters wear international
orange to be seen.  I assume you want to be seen so that someone doesn't
shoot your a__.  Why then, would you wear camo, when some other hunter
could mistake your for something and shoot you?

I'm serious about this.  I've never understood that....


'Saw, who'd like to get his pictures in Outdoor Life someday...

    UNless I've missed something, I dn't recall an outcry, in here at
    least, to ban hunting.  
    
    Second, re .178 - I've known hundreds of city living *scum* (I'm
    one), that know more about the 'country', know more abour preserving
    and respecting the environment, and obey and follow the rules of
    the 'outback' better than many of the country dwelling folks do.
    
    Simply living in a non densly populated area does NOT make a person
    a better environmentally conscious person.
    
    Also, those who do raise their voices against hunting are not
    necessarily city dwelling *scum* either. 
    
    Re Mike JN - as in almost all things, it only takes a few to have
    a large affect on the many - hunting/fishing is no exception.
    
    JD

    Saw, most states (NH excluded) require the hunter to wear a minimum
    amount of blaze orange during deer and upland bird season.  For
    instance, in Mass it's 500 square inches and in Maine it's 360 degrees
    (ie, seen from all directions).
    
    For deer season, I simply wear a blaze orange hat (I hunt NH and
    Maine).  For waterfowling, I wear camo as the idea is to get the
    birds to fly into your shooting area.  I've wondered why duck hunters
    and bow hunters are NOT required to wear orange.  
    
    1. Duck hunting is typically most active during hours of minimal
    light.
    
    2. An arrow can travel a great distance if unimpeded.
    
    Statistically speaking, not very many duck or bow hunters are victims
    of accidental shootings.  Bow hunters do get injured falling from
    trees, however.  I've never taken a stand in a tree, so I can't
    comment one way or the other.
    
    Mark.

    
    'Saw, some critters are colorblind and others are not.  Someone
    else will have to fill you in on which ones.  What may be more
    confusing to you is the blaze orange "Camouflage".  I know this
    is especially for the color-blind animals (deer are, I believe,
    thus).
    
    In the woods you see a guy dressed completely in blaze orange and
    you can't miss him.  If you took a black and white picture of him,
    he would still be distinguishable, but probably look like a snowman.
    Put this guy in "camouflage orange" and you'd still see him pretty
    well.  Now take this shot in black and white, and he'll disappear
    because the color is erased, and so is his distinguishing outline.
    
    A minimum amount (in square inches) of orange is required in Mass.,
    and probably elsewhere.
    
    Dickster
    

    JD, I'm pretty sure The Wizard, when referring to city dwelling scum,
    meant gang members and drug dealers who are the primary reason there
    is such an uproar about semi-automatic rifles.  I'd bet the majority of
    people do not realize that with a semi-auto, it's necessary to pull the
    trigger *every* time you want to shoot one round of ammo.  The biased
    media and too many politicians, would have everyone thinking otherwise.  
    
    So in reference to these jerks who say they remove the antlers with a 
    semi-automatic rifle, they'd be just as efficient with your run of the
    mill handgun.  I think the story is a hoax.  Maybe a modified
    semi-automatic (which is already illegal).
    
    The media *constantly* misinforms viewers on this issue.  BTW, I don't
    even own a gun, nor have I ever gone hunting.  I just hate to see the
    rights taken away from those that chose to do so.  Our wonderful
    Senators Kennedy and Metzenbaum would have you believe that every
    semi-automatic is an Al Capone special. 
    
    					Steve

Gee, I own a semi-automatic gun.  Gawd, I must be lumped in
with them there baby-killers and demonically possessed hoodlums that
go around saying Red Rum all the time....

Seriously, I have a Ruger .22, with a little 10 shot clip.  Nothing
fancy.  I can get some hot lead flying pretty good, but nothing like
if it was a full auto...

A good point was made, though.  People often condemn something through
ignorance.  All these journalist etc should be made to go to the
range and fire some of these weapons, and learn what is what....

JMHO,
'Saw

>Dan, just in case you were interested, here is the curve depicting natural
>herd regulation, even with predation, verses a hunter controled regulation.
    
    Looks a little too rosy to be accepted at face value.  It looks more
    like "someone's" theory, amidst a cast of thousands.
    
    Dan

Well, I'm not expert, but the trends would appear to make sense.

I don't know if the dips in the natural curve would actually be that low,
but one could reasonably expect the hunter curve to be relatively flat,
as they take a regulated number of animals.

I guess....8^)

'Saw

<          <<< Note 40.186 by CAM::WAY "Get Matt Sewell his jersey!" >>>
<
<Well, I'm not expert, but the trends would appear to make sense.
<
<I don't know if the dips in the natural curve would actually be that low,
<but one could reasonably expect the hunter curve to be relatively flat,
<as they take a regulated number of animals.
<
<I guess....8^)
<
<'Saw


	Yes the dips in the natural curve ARE that low.  When population
exceeds the carrying capacity one of two things happen.  Either a hard 
winter comes along and all food is eaten by the end of November, so virtually
the entire herd dies of starvation (approaches zero) - or disease comes along
and does the same thing.

	The elk population in Colorado right now is greater than the estimated
population in all of the United States at the turn of the century.  That doesn't
tell the whole story, but it is close....

	Ed^2

    
    Take the case of the lemmings.  I thought you knew about them, 'Saw.
    
    Dickster
    

   Whoa! Lemmings on Hallugeons (tm)!

   What a sight! They'd be checking shadows, bumping into each other, and
   shooting invisible pucks into imaginary nets.

   Mike `Am I a good straightman, or what?' JN

Newsgroups: alt.urban.folklore
Subject: Opossums and Armadillos

I saw the recent discussion on these animals and thought that the
post was appropriate.
Taken from the Book " Flattened Fauna"

Opossum

Habits and Abundance:
    Contrary to popular southeren opinion, opossums are not born dead 
by the side of the road, but may give the impression in places were the
are found abundant. The opossum often forages on the road, and may 
briefly benefit from the varied diet avaiable there. It will literally
eat anything, including its relatives who were feeding on the road a 
few days earlier. In their off-road habitat, opossums are too 
tough to kill easily (serious reports suggest that they are immune
to rattlesnake venom), and many a dog has mauled and left for 
dead an opossum that went on its way once the dog left. But on 
the road the opossum's toughness may work to its disadvantage. Becoming limp
and lying there with an open mouth after a near miss by the first 
car may serve to put off a dog or a coyote, but stands little chance 
against even a compcat cars. Such be behavior is fatal on the road,
were lying down quickly becomes a permanent condition. There
is often not enough time to play dead before becomming dead.
A nocturnal activity pattern and a fascinatoin with approacing lights
also serves to increase the road oposum population. Even without
cars, usually opossum live no more than two years, which is
males less than a year old are particularly common of it's size
on the road, by the virtue of its ability to adapt to nearly any surroundings
and a tendency to stand and fight when confronted.

Armadillos

Habits and Abundance:
   The armadillo is nearsighted, has poorly developed hearing, and 
moves about mostly at night - a set of characteristics guaranteeing
that relative to its numbers off the road, it will be better repre-
sented in the road fauna than any other mammal.  Nearsightedness 
works well in locating the worms, grubs, and caterpillars that
provide most of its food, but is of little help in helping the
armadillo look both ways before crossing the highway.  This 
creature also has a very fine sense of smell, but cars at 60 to 70
mph leave scent only behind them, never before.  The armadillo is
generally unaware that any vehicle is approaching until it is very
near, and then the animal's startled response is to leap straight
up into the air, usually to about bumper height.  Armadillos can
run with considerable speed, but they seldom make use of this
skill on the road.  A near miss by a passing pickup is likely to
call forth the other response to disturbance - to curl up in a
tight ball, with only the thickly plated back exposed.  While
this might puzzle a fox, it is no problem for an Audi.  When
severely hounded, the armadillo's alternative response is to dig
in - not useful on the interstate.  This unaggressive, bumbling 
creature has few natural enemies except motorized vehicles.




































   
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
|Dr. Strangelove               |                                              |
|U.Wisconsin Milwaukee         | "Berlin is the testicles of the West.        |
|Major: Political Science      |  Each time I give them a yank, they holler." |



    

Oh hell, you bunch of pansies.

One time, I managed to take out a young mother, clipped the baby
carriage with the front fender, shooting the baby 15 feet into the
air, and managed to have my passenger catch the baby, then slam 
dunk it at 60 mph, and all the while I swerved the back end around
to take out the Grandmother who was walking with a walker.

Of course, it was only 15 feet between the point I left the pavement
onto the sidewalk, and the point where I left the sidewalk back onto
the pavement.

A 1500 point afternoon.....

'Saw
    

    
    	At the end of regulation this past Saturday the score was:
    
    			Claybroon - 2 greenheads
    
    			Quackers  - 7 missed shots
    
    	The breasts and legs now reside in my freezer for consumption
    	at a later date.  Eat your heart out Markie Lufay!  ;^)
    
    	At this time next week, I'll be traveling to deer/elk camp
    	in my Jimmy...............no, not Fransaw Chainway's brother's
    	Jimmy.
    
    <QUACK!>
    
    Claybroon

    Hey, how about some of you New Englanders keeping the rest of us posted
    on the trial of that guy in Maine.  Apparantly he shot the lady while
    she was standing in her own back yard.  He mistook her white mittins
    for a deer's tail.
    
    Thanks.
    
    	--dan'l

    Yo dan'l,
    
    	The title to your note is incorrect.  The *idiot who shot
    	her* is in trial.  Not hunting.....
    
    	It's being discussed in DNEAST::HUNTING....the trial that
    	is.  I don't recall which note #.
    
    Claybroon

    The last I read, which was about 2 weeks ago, was that her widowed
    husband was back in his home state (can't remember which) and that
    he didn't think that the trial would be fair.  That the locals are
    too sympathetic to hunters.
    
    I haven't heard anymore, but will update if I hear of it.
    
    Lee

    
    
                     W   L   T
    Dickster         0   0   1
    Ducks            0   0   1
    
    Dickster shoots his first woodie!  The bad news is, I thought I hit
    it pretty good, and it went down around 50 yards from shore right next
     to this humungus beaver lodge.  Zeke the wonder dog doesn't always
    see where the duck lands, but by throwing rocks out he'll head for the
    area and pick up any birds floating in the area.  Unfortunately, I had
    him work the whole area for 20 minutes, and no duck.  I hate to leave
    them after they've been hit, but sometimes they'll dive and come up
    God knows where, or not come up at all.
    
    A little later, the beaver came out and headed right for us on the
    shore, and he tried to goad one of the other dogs into the water, and
    Sheba obliged by diving in after it.  The dog got just close enough to
    the beaver, when the beaver slapped its tail in the dog's face and went
    under, only to resurface nearby.  I'm sure the beaver intended to tire
    out the dog before the real confrontation, but we managed to call the
    dog back to shore.  I heard that beavers will take a dog under water
    and drown it, although I never heard of it happening to anyone I know.
    
    Back at the truck, my father-in-law couldn't find his keys, which he
    swore he left either in the ignition, or under the seat, so I took my
    jacket and hat off the seat, put them on the cap of the truck, and
    started fishing around the cab.  Well, we didn't find them, so he
    crawled under the truck and retreived a spare that he had taped to the
    bumper.  We got in and headed for another pond a few miles away.
    
    Well, when we got there, I got out of the truck, took out the gun, but
    where the hell was my jacket and hat with the license and duck
    stamps???  My mind did a quick backflash to the previous paragraph, and
    there was the clear picture of them on the cap of the truck (groan).
    Well, since the pockets were full of rocks for the forementioned
    purpose, there was no telling how long it would take for the weighted
    jacket to fall off, and also was the hat in the jacket or blown off
    somewhere else?  Well, about a half mile from the last stop, there by
    the side of the road, was my army jacket and Jack Daniels hat, hung
    neatly on a roadside mailbox.  To whoever picked them up off the road,
    you have my heartfelt thanks!
    
    A bad day of hunting is still better than a good day at work.
    
    Oh, BTW, my father-in-law had his "lost" truck keys bounce off the
    floor as he peeled off his waders.
    
    Dickster
    

    
    A partial score just in:
    
    		Claybone 1  Deer 0
    
    		Claybone 0  Elk  1
    
    I still have til sundown Tuesday to find Mr. Buck.....
    
    Claybone

    Congrats Claybroon!
    
    Let's hear the details.
    
    Mark (sound of a chair being pulled across the camp floor to be closer
    to the woodstove).
    
    

awright!

Psssssshht.  Pssshhht.  Pssshhht...  (the sound of Chainsaw popping
open three beers).

Lufay, pull a chair up for me, and here's a beer....

'Saw

    
    Wait!  Don't start the story till I get my coat off.  Hey! Pass me dat
    bottle willya, it's gettin cold out thar.
    
    Dickster
    

	Here's my trip report:

10-18-90
--------

	I blaze out of work about 11:30 and head for home to
	meet Tom and George Myers (father/son non-deccies).
	They are right on time.  We hook the utility trailer
	up to my full size GMC Jimmy, pack food into the coolers,
	throw our gear and food in, AND AWAY WE GO!

	We stop in Woodland Park for lunch and to make use of
	the last civilized bathroom facilities we'll see for
	a week  :^)

	We stop periodically on Independence Pass for pictures
	and then head down into Aspen.  We hit Carbondale about
	5:30 and top off the gas tank.  Forty five minutes later
	we meet Bruce and Brian Boyd (brothers, non-deccies) at
	the bottom of the mountain that we're going to set up camp
	on.  Bruce and Brian had taken Tom's truck (pulling a 2WD
	Honda ATV on a trailer).  They had arrived around noon and had
	shuttled the equipment up what we call "The Road of Death".
	We assessed the capacity of the ATV and compared it to the
	amount of stuff we had in the Jimmy/trailer and decided that
	it would take 4-5 trips to get the stuff up the mountain.
	Tom, being the impatient individual he is, decides he's gonna
	take everything up in one shot in his 4WD, 3/4 ton Ford 
	pickup.  The road was bone dry so we let him.  He had no 
	problems going up.  His truck kissed a tree on the way down
	which he was none too happy about.

	I forgot one thing.  The ATV I mentioned is a 4-wheel
	variety.  We had a 3-wheel variety with us as well.
	I was the only one who had experience with the 3-wheeler
	and I cautioned the guys about how dangerous they are.
	Well, ole Tom is kinda hard headed and decided he would
	see just how fast this thing would go up that Road of 
	Death.  After putting a new crack in his butt within
	100 yards, he decided I was right and never got within
	10 feet of that thing again.

	Anyway, one hour after Tom takes his truck back down,
	it starts raining.  Whew!  Good thing we got that truck
	down.  Once that road gets muddy, hell is played getting
	vehicles down due to water drainage cutouts that the
	DOW put on the downhill side of the road.  

	Camp is completely set up by 8 or 9 and we settle in
	with a cold one. When Brian and Bruce set up the tent
	(an Army GS Small), they neglected to throw dirt on
	the flap that lays on the ground around the base of
	the tent.  This is done to seal against moisture.  You
	guessed it.  All of my clothes in my duffel bag got wet.  
	Good thing it gets toasty in that tent with the stove burning.
	It made for good clothes drying.

	The weather turns from rain, to sleet, to rain, to hail,
	to rain, to slush, etc...

10-19-90
--------

	I awoke to rain/sleet in the morning.  I personally
	put the dirt on the tent flap first thing as I had
	a vested interest now in keeping the damn water out!

	The temperature starts falling as the day goes on.  By
	noon it is snowing.  Brian and I jump on the ATV and
	head up to the top of the mountain to scout.  We saw
	3 does on the rim of a bowl that we normally hunt in
	the morning.  We didn't see any bucks or elk.

	We grill our traditional Friday night feast of elk/deer
	steak (cut from game harvested the year before).  We also
	heat up some green beans.  We then retire to the tent to
	listen to the Reds whoop the As on the radio.  We check
	the Buckskin network every hour to make sure there aren't
	any emergencies back home.  

	The anticipation is mounting.  Shooting light is only
	8 hours away when the last out is made is game 3 of
	the World Series.  I can't be more happy or content.
	My misses had informed me we were expecting our 2cd
	child in May, the Reds had just taken a 3 games to none
	lead, and it was almost opening day.

	I set the alarm clock for 5 and finally doze off.

10-20-90
--------

	<RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING>  "Get up boys!  It's time to
	go huntin'", I hollered at my companions.  

	I peek out the tent and it is blizzard conditions.  There
	is already about 10 inches of snow on the ground and the
	wind is blowing app. 20-30 mph.  I wolf down a breakfast
	of trail mix.  I bundle up. Brian and I head up the 4WD
	road on foot to the bowl.  

	Legal shooting light is 6:45 but it did not get light
	enough to shoot until about 7:30 due to the conditions.
	We arrive at the south rim of the bowl about 7:00.  We
	look over the edge into the bowl and we get blasted by
	snow and a wind that had to be close to 40 mph.  We could
	not see 50 yds down into the bowl.  We step back and talk
	about an alternate plan.  It is about 7:45 now and we decide
	to hunt some small meadows just below the south rim.  We
	didn't take 10 steps when I spotted a fork horn buck heading
	up the hill towards the bowl about 60 yards to our right.
	A doe popped out right behind him and stood broadside to us.
	Brian was on my right so I couldn't shoot.  Brian didn't
	see them at first.  I told him to freeze.  By this time, the
	doe had spotted me but I was motionless so she didn't spook.
	I told Brian where the buck was.  He couldn't see the doe
	due to a tree directly between him and her.  I told him to
	step back up the hill a couple of steps and take the shot.
	He stepped back for enough to see her and took aim.  About
	the time he was ready to shoot, 4 more does took off running
	right at us!  I think this bothered Brian as he did not get
	a clean hit on her.  The 4 does that ran at us veered off down-
	hill about 20 yards from us.  I tried getting my crosshairs
	on the lead doe but they disappeared into the trees before I
	could get a bead on her.  I didn't watch Brian shoot as my
	attention was on the other does.  I asked him if he hit her
	and he said "Yeah, didn't you see her jump up in the air?  I
	think I hit her in the front shoulder."  I told him to go 
	track her and that I would wait around for a few minutes to
	see if they would circle back (as deer usually do).  Brian
	heads out and I wait about 10 minutes.  I decide they weren't
	coming back so I head over to the spot where he hit the doe
	to find Brian's tracks to help him find his doe.  I head
	down the hill about 50 yds.  I see his tracks go all the
	way across the meadow.  I decide that he must not have hit her
	very good if she got that far.  Something inside me told me
	to head back and check to see if those does were going to
	circle back one more time.  I head about 50 yards east and
	stop at the downhill side of a big spruce tree.  A big blast
	of snow and wind subsided to reveal a deer standing broadside
	to me about 100 yards away.  I couldn't tell if it was the
	fork horn buck or one of the does due to a scrub oak bush just
	beyond the deer.  I held my crosshairs just behind the
	shoulder and waited for it to turn it's head.  After about
	5 seconds, the deer turned and looked at me.....it was a doe!
	She spotted me and started to step up the hill.  I got hit
	with a gust of wind which caused my crosshairs to wind up
	on her back just behind the ribs.  I pulled the trigger and
	down she went!  By the time I reached her, she was dead.  
	A clean kill.  However, I'm afraid I ruined part of the
	backstrap.  

	I'm just about done gutting her and Brian comes walking
	up.  He lost the blood trail due to the drifting snow and
	lack of significant amount of blood.  It was a downhill
	drag on snow all the way to camp about 1/2 mile away.
	Easiest drag I ever had.  We arrive back at camp by 9:00.

	The other 3 guys didn't see anything all morning.

	Brian's brother, Bruce, came upon the herd Brian and I
	jumped that morning while he was out hunting that afternoon.
	The wounded doe was standing next to the other deer that were
	bedded down.  Bruce dropped the wounded doe with one shot and
	drug her back to camp.

	The snow and wind let up.........

10-21-90
--------

	We awoke to clear skies in the morning.  Nobody saw
	anything except tracks heading up the mountain.

	That afternoon, George took his usual position overlooking
	a huge, beaver pond filled, picturesque meadow about
	300 yards from camp.  He saw two does and took two shots.
	He missed both times.  In the 6 years he's been hunting
	with us, those are the first shots George has gotten.  George
	is 59 years old and doesn't venture far from camp so he was
	pretty excited to get to take a shot.  One of the pleasures
	of hunting is seeing how something like this can put a shot
	of youth back into an old man like George.  

	I ventured into the thick quakies that afternoon to try and
	scare up something bedded down.  I was walking along the
	side of a ridge with my gun in the downhill hand.  I slipped
	and got snow in the end of my barrel.  I opened the bolt and
	reached down to get a blade of grass to get the snow out
	with.  The grass did nothing but push the snow deeper into
	the barrel.  I decided I would get a long blade of grass and
	push it through the barrel from the breach.  This required 
	taking the bolt completely out which I put in my pocket.
	Well, after leaning down 3 or 4 times to come up with a 
	blade long enough, it seems that the bolt worked it's way
	out of my pocket and fell out into the snow.  I cleared the
	snow from the barrel and reached for the bolt I thought was 
	in my pocket.  GONE!  I searched the 10' by 4' area that I
	could have lost it in for 3 hours with no luck.  Good thing
	I brought my father inlaw's 30-30 with me.

	Nobody saw anything the rest of the day.

10-22-90
--------

	Clear skies and warm (40s - 50s) temperatures during the
	day.  Cold first thing in the morning though (about 10-15
	degrees).  Brian and I head to the northwest part of the
	bowl where there is a saddle which leads to dark timber.
	We see two does down in the bowl but they are too far away
	for Brian to try to fill his doe tag.

	I try stalking that afternoon and come across a 2 pt (western
	count) buck heading up the hill.  We stare at each other for
	about 60 seconds and he continues his stroll up the hill.  No
	matter how hard I looked at him, he just wouldn't grow a 3rd
	point on one side to be legal!

	No other game sightings that day.

10-23-90
--------

	I head way up high to the bowl on the ATV as my left knee is
	screaming at me.  I park it at a point to where I can continue
	walking along the rim of a canyon without much up and down 
	changes in elevation.  About 7:30, I come upon a triangle-
	shaped meadow that is about 125 yards wide at the base (uphill
	side).  I'm watching the point of the meadow, which is engrossed
	in shadows, and out steps a buck.  He is about 125 yards from me.
	He crosses through the point of the triangle and is in the open
	for about 10 seconds.  I put my scope on him.  It appears that
	the back tine of his fork is split on both sides making him a
	3 point and thus legal!  However, I couldn't be 100% sure that
	this was the case and had to pass up the shot.  Damn!  My knee
	was hurting so bad I couldn't even make a good effort of trying
	to stalk him through the trees.  

	Nobody else saw any game that morning.

	Nobody, including me, saw anything that afternoon.

	The guys wanted to leave a day early.  I would have argued with
	them but my knee told me otherwise.  It was going to be a clear
	cold night which would freeze the muddy road making the trek
	out easy.  Besides, I missed my wife and little boy.

10-24-90
--------

	We get up at 3:30 to pack up camp and start hauling stuff
	down the hill before the road thawed.  I suggested putting
	all of the nonbreakables into a tarp and rolling it up.  We
	could then drag it down the hill behind the 3-wheeler.  This
	worked like a charm.  Saved us about 4 trips up and down the
	hill on the 4-wheeler.  We had the trucks loaded and ready
	to go by 8:30 am.  

	Pull into my driveway at 4:00 pm.  The trip back was kind of
	long due to fast food fixes and construction on I-70.



**** 	The deer presently hang in my garage.  I'll skin them after
	work today and the boys are coming over to partake of beer
	and butchery about 7:00.

	To acquire a new bolt for a rifle requires sending the gun
	back to the factory for a custom fit due to head space
	requirements.  I'm kinda worried about the head space of
	the idiot who lost the bolt!  I'm sure there are many tips
	to get snow out of the end of a barrel.  The best one I
	could think of (boy, 20-20 hindsight is great!) is to melt
	the snow out with a match or lighter.  A hard lesson learned.
	Expensive too!  I could have rented a metal detector and run
	back up there to find it.  However, it is a long trip and the
	logistics just didn't work out for me to do that this weekend.

	I'm going to head out near town this weekend to try to fill
	my buck tag.

Clay

Hey, Lufay, pass me that bottle of Jack.....thanks.

Here's a little toast to Claybone, first on his new kid on the
way, and second on his deer.

You guys know I don't do any hunting except for with my Olympus OM-4T,
but I've got to say I know that feeling of having them in your
sights, only to have them bolt on you....  The only difference is
that with the Olympus, I can "bag" that 2 point buck 8^)

Sounds like a good trip there, Claybone....

Now, Lufay, what's doing with you?

(Dickster, here's some 'shrooms man)....

'Saw

    
    Good story, claybone.
    

   Claywad... you am a caution!

   Mike JN

    I agree with .210 and .211 wholeheartedly.  Could almost feel the
    smowflakes hitting the shiny top of my head.
    
    
    JaKe
    

I removed the headers to protect the guilty....
    

	We went to a party last Saturday night.  One of the party-goers is
	friend of ours who happens to be a policeman in Wayland.

	He told this story about he and a friend who went to Maine to	
	go deer hunting.  Seems they didn't get what they were after, 
	but that was OK because they had the last laugh.

	They had brought with them an inflatable, man sized doll which
	they dressed in hunter's clothing and tied it to the hood of their
	car just before leaving to return home.  They also had pullover
	head masks that looked exactly like a deer which of course
	they each put on and drove nonchalantly down the Maine turnpike.

	To say that they caused a commotion would be an understatement.
	They even got pulled over by a Maine State Trooper who said that
	they were really doing nothing wrong, but told them they were leaving
	a trail of accidents behind and asked them to kindly remove the 		
	costumes!


	George	

    
    	Thanks guys..........think I oughta quit my day job and
    	write for Sports Afield?  :^)
    
    	Special thanks to FranSaw ChainWay for the toast.  Any
    	chance of getting some bacon & eggs with that?  :^)
    
    	Yo George, if'n you think that was funny, you should
    	get LuFay to tell you about that lil' red ball trick.
    	Classic!
    
    Claybroon

    Clay,
    
    Spoke with my cousing last night - he lives in Wheat Ridge outside
    of Denver.  He and his buddies went hunting for 9 days or so and
    came back with 4 Elk in total.  His was 258 dressed.   He said they
    really got snowed on also.  Had the time of his life.  
    
    JD

    
    JD,
    
    	Sounds like they cleaned up.  From the weight you gave, he
    	must have shot a cow elk.  
    
    	About your p-name JD.....................CONGRATS!!!
    
    Claybroon

    Slip a red ball over the deer's nose before you load him up on the roof
    and watch the kiddies on the way home.
    
    Mark.

    
    Mark, that's so sick I love it.
    
    "Let's see...have I got all my hunting gear?  Gun..shells...license..
    knife...rope...toilet paper...red nose ball...
    
    Dickster
    

    > <<< Note 40.216 by RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "My lasted week as a bachelor" >>>
    
    
    When's the Funera....er....I mean the wedding????
    
    Good luck
    
    JaKe
    

    Bags are nearly packed and the forecast calls for a cold snap and
    potential snow for the weekend in Northern Maine.
    
    Izzit Sunday yet?
    
    Mark.

>                             -< I'm ambidextrous >-

Mark, please leave your sexual problems out of the discussion.....

8^)
8^)
8^)
    
    

    I'm rolling Markie!  Maybe you can bring your guit-fiddle and lull them
    to sleep ;-)
    
    Mike

    Hey Mark.  My yard is overrun with them cruddy tick-infested 
    White Tail Deer.  You come on out to the wooded Minnesota
    suburbs and I'll personally issue you a license to execute all
    the urban-deer scumbags you want.  I cain guarantee a buck with
    a 12" antler rack (he's got the 12" Shetland Pony job too but I
    am operating under the assumption that this ain't your thing),
    another rackless buck, two does, and some cute little Bambi-style
    teens and babes that'd look reel good with a deer slug zipping
    through those fat guts that're jammed full of my perenniels,
    annuals, rose bushes, etc.
    
    The socialist Bambi-lover crowd thinks it's real cute to have 
    a bunch of welfare-mooch urban deer hanging around spreading their
    rotten Lyme's Disease.
    
    MrT
    

MrT - the true American psycho

Just a little public service announcement, but if any of you who
live in Lyme Disease/Deer tick area and have dogs, there is a
vaccine for Lyme Disease now.  Talk to your vet about it.....

'Saw

    Also, the U. of Minnesota School a Medicine isolated a diagnosis
    tool for Lyme's.  The toughest part with the disease is that it
    is similar to so many disparate ailments (most of the neurological
    sort) that thousands of victims have seen the disease progress to
    a serious stage before finally being diagnosed.  I have a buddy who
    got it from urban-deer scum and *boy* was he messed up for a couple
    of years.
    
    Trivia: Long Island, Westchester, and North Joisey is the worst spot
    in 'Merica for Lyme's; 2nd worst: West-central Wisconsin and the
    Twin Cities (I sound like USA Today, don't I?). 
    
    MrT

    
>    Trivia: Long Island, Westchester, and North Joisey is the worst spot
>    in 'Merica for Lyme's; 2nd worst: West-central Wisconsin and the
>    Twin Cities (I sound like USA Today, don't I?). 
    
>    MrT
    
    
    Not really.  You'd have to have said "... is the worst place in the USA
    for ..."  Their substitution of USA for US/'Merica is a pet peeve.
    
    
    Bruce

    >Trivia: Long Island, Westchester, and North Joisey is the worst spot
    >in 'Merica for Lyme's; 2nd worst: West-central Wisconsin and the
    >Twin Cities (I sound like USA Today, don't I?). 
    
    A friend of my familes in NJ had/has it.  It can be realy devastating. 
    It's been on-going for about 2-3 years now and the family has since
    moved down to Florida just for his health.
    
    Dan

Other interesting trivia...

It's called Lyme Disease because the first traces of it were found
in Lyme, Ct.  My dad grew up in that area as a child.

Also, there is a species of grouse, which is a natural predator of the
deer tick.  It seems that Billy Joel's house/compound on Long Island
has many of this type of grouse, and that some researchers are doing
an experiment there....

And for folks that don't know, Deer Ticks aren't the large ticks
that you usually find on your dog.  Those are wood ticks, and have
a plethora of diseases associated with them (mainly Scarlet Fever)
but not Lyme Disease.  Deer ticks are very tiny and usually very
hard to see.....


And speaking of USA Today, did anyone see the paper box on Mars in
Total Recall?  It said, in a red logo, MARS Today.....8^)

'Saw

    MOST LIKELY TO CONTRACT LYME DISEASE:
    
    1. Children
    2. Hunters
    3. Hikers
    
    LYME DISEASE TRIVIA:
    
    1. The Lyme Disease virus is a veriant of the spirochette organism
       long associated with syphllis.
    
    2. First clue that a deer tick has bitten you is a concentric circle
       with uninflamed area surrounded with inflamed circle.
    
    WHY EPIDEMIOLOGISTS FEAR TICK-BORNE DISEASES
    
    Ticks feed off of victims blood, and store blood in a chamber for
    "dry" periods and viruses - including Lyme's - cain remain in this
    chamber for the duration of the tick's life.
    
    MrUSA T(oday)

    Rodent populations particularly prarie dog coteries go thru a periodic
    bubonic plague cycle in Colorado and parts of New Mexico. You can
    occasionaly read of someone in a hospital diagnosed with the
    plague. Dogs seem particularly vulnerable since they are likely to come in 
    contact with dead or dying critters.
    
    BoB