Conference 7.286::sports_90

QB	Jeff George		Illinois
RB	Anthony Thompson*	Indiana
	Tony Boles		Michigan
WR	Greg McMurtry		Michigan
TE	Derrick Walker		Michigan
G	Dean Dingman		Michigan
	Ian Beckles		Indiana
C	Ron Vargo		Indiana
T	Joe Ataysniak		Ohio State
	Rob Kula		Michigan State
PK	J.D. Carlson		Michigan

DL	Moe Gardner*		Illinois
	Travis Davis		Michigan State
	Jim Johnson		Iowa
LB	Percy Snow		Michigan State
	Darrick Brownlow	Illinois
	Brad Quast		Iowa
DB	Tripp Welbourne*	Michigan
	Marlon Primous		Illinois
	Henry Jones		Illinois
	Harlon Barnett		Michigan State
P	Shawn McCarthy		Purdue


Freshman of the Year:  Eric Hunter, QB, Purdue
    
    
Second team notables:
QB  	Greg Frey		Ohio State
RB	Darrell Thompson	Minnesota
	Blake Ezor		Michigan State

    An earth-shaking rumor making its way through Philadelphia this
    morning ..
    
    The Penn State Nittany Lions are actually serious about applying to
    join the Big Ten Conference.
    
    Wow.  Annual Penn State gridiron games with Michigan, Ohio State,
    Illinois, and the rest ???
    
    Actually, this has *HUGE* implications for the Penn State basketball
    program.  They've never been able to break it big in college hoops but
    playing in the Big Ten sure couldn't hurt.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Bo tidbit:
    
    Every senior on last year's Michigan football team graduated on time.
    

    Interesting selections.  From what I keep hearing and reading, the
    scouts still think Darrell Thompson will be picked #2-#5 overall
    in next years NFL draft.

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From: peppler@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: BIG TEN PREVIEW - MICHIGAN STATE vs. HAWAII (NCAA)
Summary: Should be a great one...
Keywords: Big Ten, college, Aloha Bowl
Message-ID: <1989Dec20.220603.26533@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 20 Dec 89 22:06:03 GMT
Sender: news@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News)
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Four Big Ten teams are participating in bowls, Michigan State on Christmas
Day in Hawaii and Illinois, Ohio State, and Michigan on New Year's Day.
Here is an outlook for Michigan State vs. Hawaii in the Aloha Bowl........
 
	MICHIGAN STATE (7-4) vs. HAWAII (9-2-1)  (ABC, 1:30pm CST, December
		25th) at the "Eagle Aloha Bowl":
 
	George Perles and Co. get "lei (d)" in Honolulu for Christmas in
	honor of their hard-earned efforts in cold East Lansing this season.  
	If this game was being played on the mainland, you could probably
	say, "Forget it, an MSU win".  But, with MSU's minds on a few
	other things besides football while in the sunny Pacific, this
	should be a good one to break up the afternoon on Christmas
	Day (or as an NBA alternative!).  The Spartans have a great defense,
	especially against the run, and an offense which, if unspectacular,
	is certainly formidable, featured by the crunching running of
	Blake Ezor.  The Spartans four losses came by a total of 21 points
	against four Top 10 teams:  Notre Dame, Miami, Michigan, and Illinois.
	The Rainbow Warriors had a great year, losing only to Wyoming
	and Earle Bruce's Colorado State Rams, and were tied by Air Force.
	This team is known for it's offense, as it scored 60 or more 3 times 
	(63 vs. Long Beach State, 67 vs. Utah, 60 vs. New Mexico), and 56 
	in a 56-14 romp over a good BYU team.  The Rainbows played only two 
	road games and lost them both, but not to worry, since this is a home 
	game, too!  This should be a high scoring affair, since MSU should
	have little trouble moving the ball on Hawaii's so-so defense, while
	the MSU defense will be taxed to the limit by the high-powered
	Hawaii offense.  And the month layoff always seems to affect teams
	adversely in the turnover department, one area where MSU does not
	excell.  If Perles' boys hold on to the pigskin, it will be an
	even happier Christmas in snowy Michigan.  The Spartans are an 8
	point favorite according to Danny Sheridan.  That's a bit much...
 
	MICHIGAN STATE 34, HAWAII 29
_________________                              _
| Randy Peppler |______________               / \        x
| Illinois State Water Survey |       ________| |________|____________Illinois
| rpeppler@uiuc.edu           |      /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /

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From: peppler@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: BIG TEN REVIEW (12-28-89) (NCAA)
Summary: Spartans win the Aloha Bowl
Keywords: Big Ten, college
Message-ID: <1989Dec28.182642.25528@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 28 Dec 89 18:26:42 GMT
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	MICHIGAN STATE 33, HAWAII 13  (at the Eagle Aloha Bowl):  MSU almost
					got the 34 I predicted, but Hawaii
	was a bust in this rather lackluster, turnover-laden game on
	Christmas Day.  If MSU had been clicking (it's offense was sluggish),
	the score would have been much worse.  The Spartans didn't cash in
	on very many of the generous gifts given by the Rainbows.  Hawaii must
	have been a great disappointment to it's fans, as it was never really
	competitive in this game.  Blake Ezor broke or tied several of the
	Aloha Bowl rushing records.  He's a real slasher, and should be a
	good one in the pros.  The Spartans ended at 8-4, while the Rainbows
	dropped to 9-3-1, a great year.  Even though the Spartans lose some
	good people on the defensive front, look for them to be strong in
	the Big Ten again next year, especially if Perles decides to stay
	in East Lansing.  Many of the offensive stars are back, including
	QB Dan Enos.  There are good runners waiting to replace Ezor, and
	the receiving corps will be excellent...
_________________                              _
| Randy Peppler |______________               / \        x
| Illinois State Water Survey |       ________| |________|____________Illinois
| rpeppler@uiuc.edu           |      /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /

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From: peppler@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: BIG TEN NEW YEAR'S DAY PREVIEW (NCAA)
Summary: Three good ones...
Keywords: Big Ten, college
Message-ID: <1989Dec28.203953.10617@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 28 Dec 89 20:39:53 GMT
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I will pass on a full-blown Penn State preview, but they are playing BYU in 
the Sea World Holiday Bowl tomorrow night at Jack Murphy Stadium in San
Diego.  The Lions were 7-3-1, while BYU was 9-2.  I will have to go
with Penn State, since BYU lost 56-14 to Hawaii, and if you saw the Rainbows
play against Michigan State, how good can BYU be???  PENN STATE 31, BYU 16.
 
 
 
	OHIO STATE (8-3) vs. AUBURN (9-2) in the Hall of Fame Bowl at
		Tampa (noon CST, NBC):  OSU's defense, which was 
	lousy early, progressed nicely as the season wore on.  It really 
	tightened up against the run, which is good if you are playing 
	an Auburn, but is still not that good against the pass.  The Buckeyes,
	then, may not be in that bad of shape on the defensive side of the ball,
	unless Reggie Slack becomes Major Harris by Monday.  By the end of the 
	Michigan game, OSU's defensive line was dominating Michigan's powerful
	offensive line, the one which two weeks earlier had ripped Illinois'
	vaunted defense to shreads by the end.  If OSU were facing a potent
	passing game, I would say forget it, they will lose.  On the flip
	side, Michigan was without it's speedy runner, and you have to
	figure that Auburn has much more team speed than Michigan...
	On offense, OSU's ground game is as good as any.  John Cooper has
	tremendous depth in the backfield.  Even when Carlos Snow is hurt
	(and that is often), it seems to make little difference.  Greg Frey
	is an adequate passer who plays a very smart, controlled game and
	thus grades-out well stat-wise.  If OSU is forced to pass, I'm not
	so sure he would be as effective.  He's not a Jeff George-type,
	NFL-style passing prospect, but he's tough.  Auburn has one
	of the finest defenses in the land, and did a nice job against 
	Florida State, one of the more potent teams around.  They know how 
	to stop the run, since the SEC is a run-oriented league.  If they 
	can stop OSU's ground attack and force Frey to pass, they
	will be in good shape.  But, as the stat during OSU-Michigan
	said, the OSU offensive line is bigger than most in the NFL,
	including San Francisco's.  And they are quick.  Will not be
	an easy task for Pat Dye.  Forget about OSU's debacle at USC.  That's 
	ancient history now, as the team is vastly improved.  And, they would 
	not lose by 20 to Illinois again given the shot.  Remember Auburn's 
	*great* game against Alabama.  All in all, I would have to rate this 
	as one of the better bowl matchups.  With a break or two,
	OSU would have ruined Michigan's Rose Bowl hopes.  OSU fans
	travel, as do Auburn's, so there will be a lot of spirit in
	Tampa.  Danny Sheridan lists Auburn as an 8-point favorite, one of the
	most lopsided.    OHIO STATE 27, AUBURN 23.
 
	ILLINOIS (9-2) vs. VIRGINIA (10-2) in the Florida Citrus Bowl at 
		Orlando (12:30 pm CST, ABC):  I know little about UVa
	this season, but I do know who George Welsh, the coach, is, and
	if he's at the helm, expect a great one.  Beano Cook says Illinois
	will win this one in a romp, and Danny Sheridan has been listing
	the Illini as a 3-point favorite ever since this one was announced.
	The Illini have an offense which can move the ball at will, but
	doesn't cash in as often as it should.  The passing game of Jeff
	George is dangerous, more so than the rushing game, although
	frosh Wagner Lester and Steve Feagin will be stars in time.  The
	defense was extremely tough most of the year (it relaxed a bit
	at the end), especially against the run (except at the end).  UVa
	has a very exciting offense which surpassed the 40-point plateau
	four times.  The 'Hoos lost only to Notre Dame in August and at
	Clemson on October 7th by 14.  Among UVa's wins were Penn State (by 8),
	Duke (21), NC State (11), all bowl teams.  They also routed UNC,
	Wake Forest, and Maryland, and struggled against Georgia Tech (which
	finished 7-4), William and Mary, Louisville (a good team), and
	cross-state rival Virginia Tech.  The Virginia defense had problems
	at times, giving up more than 20 points on 6 occasions.  Welsh's
	teams are very disciplined.  A case-in-point was the 1984 Peach Bowl,
	when Jim Everett's Purdue team raced to an easy 24-14 halftime lead,
	only to have Welsh make adjustments which shut Purdue out in the
	second half enroute to a 27-24 win.  Illinois has a dreadful bowl
	record in the '80s, 0-4, with losses to Alabama in the 1982 Liberty
	Bowl, UCLA in the 1984 Rose Bowl, Army in the 1985 Peach Bowl,
	and Florida last year in the All-American Bowl.  None of those
	opponents were particularly strong at the time, either.  On paper,
	Virginia is the best team Illinois will have played in a bowl game
	this decade.  This should be a competitive ballgame despite Beano's 
	prediction.  Big Ten fans, you will have to keep the "flipper" handy
	to keep track of this one and OSU-Auburn.    ILLINOIS 27, VIRGINIA 22.
 
	MICHIGAN (10-1) vs. SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (8-2-1) in the Rose Bowl
		at Pasadena (4:00 pm CST, ABC):  USC is, suprisingly to
	me, a 2-point favorite in this episode of the Rose Bowl.  Michigan
	ended the season strong, while the Trojans stumbled home.  This
	is Bo's last game.  Marinovich is still a freshman.  Illinois beat
	USC at the Coliseum.  Michigan whipped the Illini in Champaign, and
	beat UCLA in L.A., while the Trojans barely tied them.  But, the game 
	is in L.A., not a place where Bo does well.  However, he did beat USC 
	there last year.  He will have to do it without star running back
	Tony Boles, who was lost for the year at Minnesota and who's injury
	was so severe that he may be turned into a receiver next season.
	Bo's had a month to find another quick tailback, so don't worry.
	Plus, Michigan has lots of other weopens, like powerful fullback	
	Leroy Hoard, QB's Michael Taylor and Elvis Grbac, an excellent group
	of receivers, and Bo's always tough, scrappy defense.  SC has the
	maturing Marino-vich, a bunch of excellent running backs and receivers,
	and a pretty good defense.  Larry Smith has an alarming 0-2 record
	in the Rose Bowl, and now in just his third season at the helm, has
	the Men of Troy back in the Rose Bowl.  Can he possibly lose again??
	Will Bo end his career in glory, or despair??  What will happen to
	Michigan football with Gary Moeller at the helm??  Maybe this is
	Michigan's last hurrah for a while, since Illinois (if George stays),
	and Ohio State should be the favorites next year......  Although
	this game has limited National Championship implications, apparently,
	I wouldn't miss it!!    MICHIGAN 23, USC 21.
_________________                              _
| Randy Peppler |______________               / \        x
| Illinois State Water Survey |       ________| |________|____________Illinois
| rpeppler@uiuc.edu           |      /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /

    Will George Perles be heading to the Jets?
    
    Charles

    
    Its a good thing the Big 10 fattened up on those Clemson-type
    opponents, otherwise their bowl appearances would have been a complete
    embarassment (as opposed to 90%).
    
    Bruce 

    
    Hawaii and Virginia are.  The Big 10 didn't fatten up on USC and
    Auburn, they were the fattee.
    
    Bruce

Hawaii and Virginia weren't like Clemson: they lost and Clemson won. So I
guess Auburn and So Cal were like Clemson. But then you're point -
whatever that was - isn't made real good.

TTom

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From: peppler@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: BIG TEN REVIEW OF NEW YEAR'S DAY, 1990  (NCAA)
Summary: Just 2-2 overall this time...
Keywords: Big Ten, college
Message-ID: <1990Jan3.182039.6386@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 3 Jan 90 18:20:39 GMT
Sender: news@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News)
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The Big Ten ended up 2-2 in the bowls, thanks to some favorable matchups
for Michigan State and Illinois, and an unfortunate call (I can't help it) in
the Rose Bowl.  USC did dominate the game, though.  Ohio State was outclassed 
in the second half by an underrated Auburn team...
 
 
	AUBURN (10-2) 31, OHIO STATE (8-4) 14, in the Hall of Fame Bowl 
	at Tampa:  I thought I was a prophet for awhile, then the real
	Auburn team decided to play.  Ohio State's lack of rushing offense
	doomed them Monday.  And, Auburn piled up some serious return
	yardage in this game.  I thought the turning point was when Zack
	Dumas leveled the Stacy Danley.  As OSU was high-fiving it, Danley
	laid on the ground.  But he got up, and Auburn got fired up.  The
	Big Ten's best offense was then totally shut down in the second half,
	as Auburn outgained the Buckeyes 177-81.  The OSU running game
	got only 66 yards, well under it's season average.  Nevertheless,
	the Buckeyes should be one of the teams to beat in the Big Ten
	next year, along with Illinois.  Auburn is tough.  Pat Dye finally
	has a great bowl showing...
 
	ILLINOIS (10-2) 31, VIRGINIA (10-3) 21, in the Florida Citrus Bowl at
	Orlando:  The most surprising thing about this game, once you
	watched a little of it, was that Illinois only won by 10.  Virginia
	was arguably the weakest of the New Year's Day bowl participants.
	The thing which kept holding Illinois back was fumbles.  I expected
	more from a George Welsh team, but this one really was no contest.
	After watching Clemson totally dismantle West Virginia's offense
	in the Gator Bowl, how the devil did they not win the ACC???  Oh
	well.  Does any QB have more time to throw than Jeff George?  He
	could have written a book on how to be a QB while he stood in the
	pocket and checked all of his options, which were many.  Good grief.
	I think I could have thrown some completions behind that great
	line.  The popular sentiment locally is that George is as good as
	in an NFL uniform, but hopefully I can tell you something concrete
	very soon.  Let's see.  First Downs:  UI 29, UVa 18.  Rushing
	Yards:  UI 176, UVa 110.  Passing Yards:  UI 321, UVa 212.  Total
	Yards:  UI 497, UVa 322.  George was 26-38-1, 321 yards, and 3 TDs.
	The tone of this game was set on the opening kickoff, when the
	Cavaliers fumbled.  The only negative was that the Illini lost 3 
	fumbles.  Mike Bellamy caught 8 passes for 166 yards and a TD, and 
	had a 68 yarder.  Howard Griffith ran for 93 yards.  An easy win.
 
	SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (9-2-1) 17, MICHIGAN (10-2) 10, in the Rose Bowl
	at Pasadena:  A holding call on a great, successful fake punt by
	Michigan doomed the Wolverines in Bo's last hurrah in smoggy
	Pasadena Monday.  Considering the holding I've seen over the years
	NOT called, it was really a disappointing way to have the Rose
	Bowl turn.  THE Michigan Man is now done coaching HIS Michigan Team.
	Another Michigan man, Larry Smith, got his first Rose Bowl "W".
	USC did dominate this one statistically, so to pin it all on one
	play is probably unfair, but what a turnaround it was.  Ricky Ervins
	of SC said he "thought that was the game".  But, the yellow flag
	changed it.  Ervins had 126 yards on 30 carries, and Leroy Holt
	of Michigan barreled his way to 108 yards on 17 carries.  Marinovich
	completed 22-31-1 for 178 yards.  Michael Taylor had a bad day,
	throwing for just 115 yards.  What will happen to Michigan football
	now????  Bo could be a real you-know-what at times, but he will be
	missed....
 
 
Thanks to everyone who read these usually too long previews and reviews,
and especially thanks for all of the nice comments.  See you next year,
or whenever any juicy news comes down the pike...  The George news and
the Wisconsin coach are probably the first items down the road...
_________________                              _
| Randy Peppler |______________               / \        x
| Illinois State Water Survey |       ________| |________|____________Illinois
| rpeppler@uiuc.edu           |      /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /  /

    re -1                                       
         
    Even the Big 10 Bigots on the usenet are admitting that the 2 victories
    are soiled.  Where's T?

    Bo knows baseball?
    

    Big Ten Stats of the 80s (from USA Today 12-29-89)
    
    Record (not including 1989-90 bowls)
              		Conference	Overall		Bowl
    Michigan            68-14-2		90-29-2		5-4
    Ohio State		57-24-1		82-34-2		5-2
    Iowa		53-25-4		77-40-4		4-4
    Illinois		52-29-3		65-48-4		0-4
    Michigan State	43-38-3		54-56-3		1-3
    Purdue		35-48-1		45-65-2		1-1
    Wisconsin		31-52-1		46-67-1		1-2
    Indiana		30-54-0		48-64-1		1-2
    Minnesota		28-55-2		48-64-2		1-1
    Northwestern	13-71-1		18-90-2		0-0
    
    Passing
    		    		Years	Cmp.	Att.	Yards	TDs
    Chuck Long, Iowa    	81-85	782	1,203	10,461	74
    Jack Trudeau, Illinois	81-85	797	1,248  	 8,723	55
    Scott Campbell, Purdue	80-83	609	1,060	 7,636	45
    Jim Everett, Purdue		82-85	572	  965	 7,411	43
    Tony Eason, Illinois	81-82	561	  911	 7,031	38
    
    Rushing
    				Years	Att.	Yards	TDs
    Anthony Thompson, Indiana	86-89	1,161	5,299	67
    Lorenzo White, Michigan St. 84-87	1,082	4,887	42
    Darrell Thompson, Minnesota 86-89	  651   4,518	51
    Jamie Morris, Michigan	84-87	  809	4,393	25
    Tim Spencer, Ohio State	80-82	  607 	3,322	34
    
    Receiving
    				Years	Recpt.	Yards	TDs
    David Williams, Illinois	83-85	262	3,392	24
    Rodney Carter, Purdue	82-85	181	1,814	 5
    Cris Carter, Ohio State	84-86	168	2,725	27
    Steve Griffin, Purdue	82-85	146	2,234	12
    Ronnie Harmon, Iowa		82-85	146	2,045	10
    Andre Rison, Michigan St.	85-88	146	2,992	20
    
    Scoring
    				Years	Pts.
    Anthony Thompson, Indiana	86-89	412
    Mike Gillette, Michigan	85-88	307
    Keith Byars, Ohio State	83-85	300
    Rich Spangler, Ohio State	82-85	294
    Rob Houghtlin, Iowa		85-87	290

    If those rushing numbers are correct, I guess I can see why Daryll
    Thompson is being considered one the top 5 picks in this years draft.
    On mostly mediocre to below average teams, he finished 781 yards
    behind Anthony Thompson in *510* less attempts.
                                              
    We've been wondering all along what kind of incredible numbers he
    would have put up with a good team.
    
    
    Spud

    
    The Buckeyes received some bad news. Senior Tailback Carlos Snow is out
    for the year. During his spring ball physical the Drs. found a tumor on
    his hip when examining his bad knee. Luckily, the tumor was benign but
    he will not be able to play this year. 
    
    They are considering moving the tank, Scottie Graham, to tailback or
    maybe leaving Graham at FB and playing Lee at TB. In any case, there
    will be allot of speed in the backfield. This year's recruiting class
    included Robert Smith from Ohio, who is considered by many as the top
    RB prospect in the nation. They also signed Alex Rodriquez, RB, Illinois
    player of the year, and Butler By'not'e (don't ask me how to pronounce
    it), RB and Missouri's player of the year.
    
    Their weak points are considered to be OL, where only one starter
    returns, and the middle of the DL where inexperience and lack of a big,
    quick NT may hurt them.
    
    The players to watch are QB Greg Frey, who led the BIG-10 last year in
    passing accuracy and true Soph. OLB Alonzo Spellman who started 10
    games last year as a true freshman and led the team with 10 tackles for
    losses. 
    
    Spellman will undoubtably be a concensus All-American at least by his
    senior year. He is very big (I think around 6'5", 245 lbs.) with very
    long arms, incredibly quick and hits like a truck. He tended to
    over-react at times last year but the kid was only 17 when the season
    started and is an incredible raw talent.
    
    The Buckeyes get a big break schedule wise, compared to last year. USC,
    Illinois, and Michigan are at Columbus. Texas Tech lost several top
    players from last year's bowl team and the other non-Conference game is 
    at Boston College. So you Boston area folks will get the pleasure of
    seeing the Buckeyes live!
    
                                                   HOOT
    

    Boy oh boy.  The Buckeyes sure have had a lotta bad preseasons lately.
    
    Didn't they lose 2 or 3 top players to that agent scandal awhile back?
    My condolensces, Hoot.  Chin up, though.  What with Bo no longer
    scrounging all the top talent outta Ohio, it's a wide open league now.
    
    Big11 Tom

    
    That was Cris Carter, now with the Eagles.
    
    I guess ole' Carlos Snow got a bit crazy and was arrested for drunk
    driving the other day. Cooper suspended him. He can't play anyway.
    I just wonder what that does to his scholarship. Also a DB was
    suspended for getting in a fight outside a bar.
    
                                                   HOOT
    

From: stassen@netcom.UUCP (Chris Stassen)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: Big Ten consensus predictions
Date: 24 Jul 90 01:46:11 GMT
 
Big Ten consensus predictions, compiled from five various college
football prediction magazines (Football Digest, TSN, Don Heinrich,
GamePlan, and Street & Smith):
 
	 1. Michigan		49 (4)	\ The cream of the crop
	 2. Illinois		45 (1)	/
	 3. Ohio State		38	\ Possible contenders
	 4. Michigan State	37	/
	 5. Iowa		26	\
	 6. Indiana		25	 > Middle of the road
	 7. Purdue		22	/
	 8. Minnesota		14	\ Best of the worst
	 9. Wisconsin		14	/
	10. Northwestern	 5	> The only unanimous pick
 
[....]

    A former Indiana offensive lineman and Philadelphia Eagle first round
    draft pick (number 9, I think) was recently released from prison after
    spending 33 months behind bars for rape.  I think his name is Keith
    Allen, and he is looking to be reinstated in the NFL, where he has yet
    to play a down.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    That doesn't count.   You know it.  No one from the Bigot10 has
    ever done anything wrong.  
    
    JD

    Dan,
    
    That's Kevin Allen.  He was the Eagles' first round pick in 1985, I
    believe.  Marion Campbell's last first round pick for the Eagles.
    
    He missed almost all of training camp that year in a contract dispute. 
    Showed up very late and out of shape.  On opening day against the
    Giants in the Meadowlands, Campbell sat down the first stringer who had
    been there the entire camp and inserted Allen instead.
    
    Lawrence Taylor ate him alive.   The Eagles had to take Ron Jaworski
    out of the game to keep him from getting killed.   Allen lasted another
    game or two and was then benched.
    
    Shortly thereafter, he raped a girl on the beach near Atlantic City,
    was arrested and convicted and jailed.
    
    Now, he wants back in apparently.   Wow, that's unreal.
    
    I have no idea why he wanted to rape someone but I firmly believe his
    football career went down the toilet because his stupid agent convinced
    him to holdout from his first and only training camp.
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    

Kevin Allen fits into the mold for a Bronco OL. 

Can we sign him ???


:*)

    Does anybody happen to have Purdue's schedule for this year???
    
    - Ken -
    

>    Does anybody happen to have Purdue's schedule for this year???
    

Sept 8	 Breasts
Sept 15  Wings
Sept 22  Thighs
Sept 29  Roasters
Oct   6  Parts

HTH...  

    When I read .31 I knew before I hit the NEXT REPLY key that .32
    would be written by Saw.
    
    Mark.

    ahem......
    
    As a former Boilermaker, may I point out to the esteemed members of
    this conference that the university is spelled P*U*rdue, and the
    purveyor of chickens is spelled P*E*rdue?  Thank you.  This is a 
    large difference.  :-) :-)
    
    
    Unfortunately, somewhere along the line the administration lost track
    of me and therefor I don't have the football schedule.  However, it
    should be noted that while I loyally attended all home football games
    during my time in West Lafayette, my interests were such that my
    boyfriend got the binoculars during the game, and I got them for
    half-time.  I couldn't tell you who the major players were when I
    attended, let alone now.
    
    A&W

    re .32
    
    Rooollllwaard ! :-)

[Yes, I know the spelling is different...8^)]


No games with the Lips, though folks!

    THe PAC10 turned down expansion,and will remain the PAC10 - led
    by Stanford, who put things in perspective.  The Stanford A.D. said
    "Expansion is done for one reason:  G-R-E-E-D.  Plain and simple
    - greed for more money and exposure.  No other reason."
    
    Now Stanford is a school of high academic standards, a gorgeous
    campus, and decent athletic teams.     Greed=expansion=BIG10...
    
    JD

    JD, I read that the Pac-10 turned down expansion because they didn't
    see any gain in TV share for the trouble.

    Mac,
    
    I'm going by the stories out here, which were plentiful, since
    Washington and Wash. ST. are members of the PAC10...
    
    JD

    I've seen some stuff because Texas and A&M were thinking about going to
    the Pac-10.  I'm pretty sure one of the Pac-10 presidents was quoted as
    saying that.  As usual, the truth is probably some where in the middle.

    1990 Purdue schedule:
    
    Sep. 15  WASHINGTON
    Sep. 22  INDIANA ST.
    Sep. 29  @ Notre Shame
    Oct. 6   MINNESOTA
    Oct. 13  @ Illinois
    Oct. 20  OHIO STATE
    Oct. 27  @ Michigan St.
    Nov. 3   MICHIGAN
    Nov. 10  @ Northwestern
    Nov. 17  @ Iowa
    Nov. 24  INDIANA
                    
    

    Look for the Hoosiers to extract mighty revenge from the Farm 
    Implemements come Old Oaken Bucket time.  What's Purdue football
    good for, anyway.  When they're not giving up a Jeff George they're
    out hiring a loser like Fred "no I am NOT dead" Akers and his 1940s
    style offensive scheme as coach.  Yeah, sure, the Spoilers pull off
    their annual one upset, but when's the last time they put together
    a solid season?  How many bowls they been in lately?  Sad.
    
    Big10 Tom

    >Greed=expansion=BIG10
    
    Man, why don't you take your negative attitude down to the brain
    doctor and axe for a refill, buddy, cuz you are running on EMPTY!
    
    Big-time college sports is a_industry, as the corporation with the
    best television demographics (i.e., base industrial market) is the
    Pac10.  In other words, their greed is already fulfilled cuz they
    don't have no comp in a huge TV market.  
    
    In sad contrast, the Big10 - the nation's premier hoops conference -
    gets only half the national TV exposure for basketball than the Big
    Least and the always-overrated-but-fading-now-that-the-Big-Least-is-
    on-the-scene Almost Close Conference.  
    
    So, where the Pac10 had no need, the Big10 had a big need, being stuck
    out in what you heels like to call "flyover country."  Yeah, flyin'
    like a_eagle !!
    
    Big10 Tom 

    > In sad contrast, the Big10 - the nation's premier hoops conference -
    > gets only half the national TV exposure for basketball than the Big
    > Least and the always-overrated-but-fading-now-that-the-Big-Least-is-
    > on-the-scene Almost Close Conference.  
    
    Yup, we're fading all right.  5 teams in last years NCAA tourney, 25% of
    the Sweet 16, and 50% of the Final 4 and Final 2.  Couple that with the
    #1 recruiting year in the nation 2 years in a row and you've got a 
    conference with its back to the wall all right.

    Once again rhetoric fails to match reality.  


    - ACC Chris

    >Once again rhetoric fails to match reality.
    
    When are you people gonna finally learn that rhetoric is not a
    bad thing?  If by "rhetoric" you meant to say "bad rhetoric," then
    ok, I cain' accept this as a well-stated mistatement of FACK:  The
    Almost Close used to rake in millions in from the NorthEastCorridor
    CircleJerk market, cuz they had no college sports.  They steel don't,
    in the sporting sense, but they *did* band together a bunch a money
    hungrey Jesuits and create the violent semipro basketball league we
    now know as the Big Least.  The Big Least has cut into the Almost 
    Close's TV ratings ever sense.  
    
    THAT is what I was talking aboutwhen I said "now fading," although
    I guess I could take the same fine phraseology and brush aside you 
    false dastisticks and also say that the Big10 came out on top during
    the 80s, is the best hoops conference of all-time, and besides on 
    balance is the best overall athletic conference of all-time to boot.
    
    After all, speaking a boots, this *is* a football note, right?  And 
    when the work foot-ball comes up, the Almost Close promptly disappears
    completely.  We'll see ya in November, 'Caught.  Teal then, why don't
    you jest step aside, cuz this is the man's season, a time when manly
    men with hairy chests and strong arms and indominitable wills play OT
    and mow 'em down.  You and your ilk could get hurt.  I mean, for GOD'S
    SAKE, man!, I saw somebody over in 25 bragging about the Wahoos'
    gridiron prowess today!  
    
    Next thing you know, we'll have the Village People doing Boy Scouts of
    America recruiting ads!
    
    Big10 Tom

    There was a table I saw in last week's paper that showed some new and
    different distribution model that the NCAA has apparently decided to
    use to split up all this new NCAA tournament booty they are raking in
    from CBS.
    
    *One* of the key considerations is NCAA tournament performance in the
    last 5 years from 1985 to 1990.   Final Four appearances were worth
    big-time bucks.  Overall winning %age is factored in as well.
    
    The ACC (with 8 schools) was on the very top of the money list followed
    by the Big East (with 9) followed by the Big Ten with its 10 teams.
    
    Academic performance considerations were also considered.  With what
    weight compared to winning %age, I honestly don't recall.
    
    Bottom line is that money talks.   The ACC ain't shuttin' up, that's
    for sure.
    
    Bob Hunt

    You're absolutely correct BobHunt.  The ACC leads the nation in
    percentage of money earned for each school basketball-wise, cause we've
    only got 8 teams.  If 5 ACC teams make the tourney and 5 Bigot10 teams,
    each ACC school cashes in a considerably higher amount.  (Just about
    all schools split NCAA tourney money among conference members.  The
    noteworthy exception to this rule is Louisville.)
    
    This is one of the main reasons most of the ACC schools are against
    expansion.  An additional team means less hoops revenue, which ya gotta
    factor in when calculating whether the new team(s) will result in a net
    positive to the bottom line.  (The only thing that matters these days,
    of course.)  Also factored in to the equation is the academic
    performance of the prospective institution(s), cause the NCAA has
    wisely deemed that to be a criterion to be evaluated when handing out
    the bucks.
    
    The latest word on ACC expansion is there's less than a 50% of it
    happening, and if it does it'll be to add only one team.  (Florida
    State)  There are tons of schools who would love to join but,
    frankly, we're just not interested.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Sorry for the rat hole folks.  After all, this *is* a Bigot10 football
    note.  With that in mind, I've been doing some thinking about Penn
    State.  Consider:
    
    o Penn State's claim to fame is football.  There football program is
      built around one man - Joe Paterno.  When Joe walks (which he's
      rumored to do within a couple of years, max) where does this leave
      them?  Replacing a legend is seriously difficult business.
    
    o PSU basketball stinks, plain and simple.  They haven't had anything
      approaching a national power in, well, I wouldn't even venture a
      guess.  They're stuck in the middle of nowhere, making recruiting
      extraordinarily difficult.  It'll be a *long* time before Penn State
      catches up with even the lower tier of the admittedly 3rd best
      hoops conference in the USA.  (Course, thanks to revenue sharing,
      they'll still claim their share of NCAA hoops money, leaving other
      schools with substantially less cash.)
    
    From an ACC perspective, frankly, you can have 'em.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    BTW - One other reason the ACC is against expansion has to do with
          the ACC tournament.  Unlike any other conference tournament
          in the USA, the ACC tourney is a *huge* success.  Tickets are
          willed to future generations.  Adding another team means fewer
          ACC tournament tickets for each school, which is NOT a popular
          move with the rich and generous alumni.  (Also not popular with
          the students either, but who cares about them.  We're talkin'
          Big Money here.  :^( )

    HEY !!  Take it to 25 willya.  If you guys wanna while away the day 
    telling each other obfuscatory fibs about your precious fading Almost
    Close then return to the Closet willya.  
    
    This note is for the purpose of discussing Big10 Gridiron.  As mentioned
    already, the Almost Close is a hoops only league, so there ain't no 
    possible connection to this note for your league.  
    
    >and the smelly stuff walks.
    
    But, didn't I see Bobby Cremins favorite ACC referee *running* to the 
    bank with that bag full of cash after Tech's "victory" you count in
    these numbers?
    
    In fack, everybody accepts that State got screwed otta Final Four
    appearances, first by Kansas in Kansas and then by Tech by a_ACC ref -
    cain you rerun them numbers acconting for +2 Final Fours for the Big10
    and -1 each for the Almost Close and the BigAte?
    
    Big10 Tom

    >Nope, sorry, cain't do it.
    
    This is the very kind of shallowness, immaturity, and self-centered
    total lack of objective intellectual honesty that is the curse of 
    this place.  I've invested years in here trying to stamp out this
    sort of evasion, but it's like stamping out a small fire only to have
    a wall of obfuscation conflagaration behind me.  This is why I am wont
    to writing long, detailed, fact-packed notes, to nail down the slithery,
    to domument the doltish.
    
    However, when a defendent won't testify, then he don't have no defense
    at all.  You cain lead a horse to water, but you cain't help him fathom
    the molecular structure and physcial properties of H20.
    
    Your point is as clear as mud, buddy: The Almost Close is just that, 
    close... almost.  And the Big10?  Numero Uno.
    
    Now, as I said: skeedaddle.
    
    Big10 Tom

    You guys are really incredible.  Where do you get all the energy
    to fight over every word and sentence ?  My God, you sound as if
    you are Athletic Directors of your Universities.  Were you guys
    that fanatic about your sdchools when you were in college ?  I
    can only imagine how much money you give your school each year.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

Yeah, I've been fanatical about NC State since way before I went there
in the early 80s. I think it's great that there are intense, strongly
defined collegiate loyalties: BobHunt/Virginia; MrT/Indiana;
ACChris/NoCarolina; and many, many more. 

BTW, How much money do you imagine that I give them each year, Cowboy R?

TTom

>BTW, How much money do you imagine that I give them each year, Cowboy R?

>TTom
    
       As much as you defend your schools you should be the ones paid as
    PR men.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

       I can't believe I'm doing this but...
        
    > P.S.   The Cowboys sip, too.  0-16 would be a wet dream come true.
       
       Bob, you really must see someone about this, its not normal to
       have such dreams over football.  You must be doing it wrong if
       you excited like that in your dreams.
    
    Just kidding,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    The Nittany Lions announced yesterday that they cancelled their
    home/away contract with Notre Shame starting in 92 (I think). 
    
    Joe wouldn't say whether the early scheduling of Iowa was done to
    segue into the Big10 at the earliest possible date, or to disassociate
    his fine pristine program from Shame, which is wallowing of late.
    
    Welcome home, Nittany Lions!
    
    Big10 Tom

    This is a request from a college football fan on assignment in England.
    Can someone please post the Big Ten football results each week here?
    This conference seems like it might be my only chance to find out the
    results.   
    
    Thanks,
    Joe from Michigan

Joe,

Here's what you got to look forward to:

	MICHIGAN	13^	ucla		
	PENN ST		15^	rutgers		
	INDIANA		10	missouri	
	WISCONSIN	3^	temple		
	IOWA		14	iowa st		
	NEBRASKA	29	minnesota	
	notre dame	6	MICHIGAN ST	
	RICE		8	northwestern	

TTom

    
    Joe,
    
    	Charles Mok used to do the very thing you're requesting.  
    	Where are you Charles?  Duty calls.....
    
    Claybone

    Someone calling me?  First day I got back into the conference after not
    looking in here for 2 weeks?  I used to pull out stuffs from usenet and
    post here, but I am not sure if I can have time to do the same now.  I
    will try what I can.  
    
    By the way I am now located in Santa Clara, CA, no longer Shrewsbury,
    MA.  But I will be travelling back and forth the coasts quite a bit.  
    
    Charles

	MICHIGAN 38, ucla 15
	INDIANA 59, missouri 7
	notre dame 20, MICHIGAN ST 19
	ILLINOIS 56, Southern Illinois 21
	PURDUE 41, indiana st 13
	temple 24, WISCONSIN 18
	IOWA 45, iowa st 35
	NEBRASKA 56, minnesota 0
	RICE 31, northwestern 14
	PENN ST 28, rutgers 0
	Ohio St, bye

TTom

    Big Ten goes 6-4 again.
    
    A tribute to medicrity ...
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    P.S.  Have to admit I was rootin' for the Spartans.  But TD Jesus got
    in the way again and pulled Notre Dame's chestnuts out of the fire
    *again*.

    I listened to the Notre Dame radio network broadcast and on Shame's
    last drive they go "oh no! motion on the fullback! he wasn't set
    as the ball was snapped he was still going into his stance!"  Time
    passes, and of course no call.
    
    What is it with UND?  On a crucial first down spot in the Michigan
    game the runner goes maybe 6 feet past the marker, and right in front
    of Gary Moeller they proceed to spot the ball back about 8 feet 
    for a no first down thus ending what woulda been the winning drive.
    I'm beginning to believe what Jimmy Johnson was talking about.
    
    >A tribute to medcrity ...
    
    No, a tribute to playing some of the top teams in the nation (i.e.,
    what the sports scientists technically term a "non-Virginia manly
    schedule").
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    > I listened to the Notre Dame radio network broadcast and on Shame's
    > last drive they go "oh no! motion on the fullback! he wasn't set
    > as the ball was snapped he was still going into his stance!"  Time
    > passes, and of course no call.
    
    > What is it with UND?  On a crucial first down spot in the Michigan
    > game the runner goes maybe 6 feet past the marker, and right in front
    > of Gary Moeller they proceed to spot the ball back about 8 feet 
    > for a no first down thus ending what woulda been the winning drive.
    > I'm beginning to believe what Jimmy Johnson was talking about.
    
    Those are small potatoes compared to Rick Mirer getting popped back on
    his own 15, fumbling the ball backwards in the direction of his own
    goal line, and having the ref blow it dead for a forward pass.  Can't
    these refs get it that in the absence of the ball being swatted by the
    defensive player, a forward pass must actually go forward?  You'd think
    it'd be written explicitly in the rules, it gets screwed up so often.
    
    glenn
    

    I didn't dare mention that one for fear of being accused of having
    ClemSuck-itis.  If State had won I woulda led with THAT one.  The
    guy's got the ball down around his knee and they call it a forward
    pass.
    
    Something about State and officiating.  They're due some makeup 
    calls from on high.  Especially in hoops.
    
    Hey, how 'bout them Hoosiers?  Came outta the locker room for the
    second half with their first team on the bench and steel ended up
    setting a number of game records (yes, I know that Hoosier gridiron
    records aren't big potatoes, but progress is progress).  They could
    be for real this year.  
    
    I'm hoping that they cain knock off at least one a the 2nd tier teams
    (Illini/State/Buckeyes/Hawkeyes), hopefully more.  Michigan seems to
    have the most awesome offensive line in the history of the game so
    in light of Indiana's undersized recruits they should get mowed down
    by the Wolve's 360 pounders, give up 250 yards rushing, and lose badly
    in that one.  Against Michigan their goal should  be to score at least
    14 points and lose by less than 21.
    
    Big10 Tom

From: peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: Big Ten REVIEW of 9-22-90
Date: 25 Sep 90 19:33:17 GMT
 
Another near-miss against Notre Dame, and a touchdown scoring record
for Howard Griffith highlighted the Big Ten last Saturday.  I'm
18-4-1 now after getting all of the games right!
 
ILLINOIS (2-1) 56, Southern Illinois (2-2) 21  (Pred:  ILLINOIS 45, SIU 9):
	Lost in all the national media hubub over Howard Griffith's 8 TD
	runs against this Division 1-AA opponent was the fact that SIU
	capitalized on some sloppy early Illinois play to actually lead
	this game 21-7 at the end of the first quarter.  Illinois has now
	been very slow out of the gate in all three games, something
	which John Mackovic is worried about.  21 second quarter points
	for Illinois righted things, and the game became a blowout.  Over
	64,000 on hand...
 
 
INDIANA (2-0) 58, Missouri (1-2) 7  (Pred:  INDIANA 34, Missouri 20):
	IU is now 11th in Sagarin's computer ratings.  Mizzou got off to
	a very quick 7-0 lead.  I changed the station on my radio to
	try to pick up Purdue, and when I went back to IU, it was 30-7,
	late second quarter!  Vaughn Dunbar had an 80-yard run for a TD,	
	and Mizzou's rather highly regarded QB Kiefer threw 3 big INTs
	in the first half.  Who needs AT and Schnell!  This team is
	better.  IU should be 4-0 when Ohio State visits Bloomington
	on October 13th.  Over 45,000 at Memorial Stadium...
 
 
IOWA (2-0) 45, Iowa State (1-2) 35  (Pred:  IOWA 31, Iowa State 22):
	No love lost here, and a great game to boot.  A record Iowa
	crowd of 70,389 saw an offensive shootout from both sides, 
	despite the absence of ISU tailback Blaise Bryant.  Iowa
	bagged this one with 21 quick third quarter points after having
	a 17-14 halftime lead.  This was Iowa's 8th straight victory
	over it's Big Eight cousins...
 
 
MICHIGAN (1-1) 38, UCLA (1-2) 15  (Pred:  MICHIGAN 34, UCLA 12):
	Tommy Maddox, the true-frosh QB for UCLA, has star-potential.	
	He gave it his all Saturday, but when Michigan's ground
	game shreads you for nearly 400 yards, it's tough to win.
	Jon Vaughn eclipsed the 200 yard mark for the second straight
	time, with 288 on just 32 carries.  Maddox threw for 353 yards.
	The Wolverines clawed ahead 21-0 before UCLA made it 21-13
	late in the first half.  But, another Michigan TD before the
	gun sealed the game as the second half was more defensive.
	104,992 at Ann Arbor...
 
 
Notre Dame (2-0) 20, MICHIGAN STATE (0-1-1) 19  (Pred:  Notre Dame 20,
	MICHIGAN STATE 15):  Pretty close, eh?  What a heartbreaker!
	The Spartans dominated most of this game, but the Irish 
	apparently own the fourth quarter this year.  Last week, they
	trailed Michigan 24-14 heading into the final stanza, but
	won.  This week, State was up 19-7 as the 4th quarter began.
	Last week it was an Elvis Grbac interception which doomed
	the opposition.  This week, it was a deflected ball which
	Todd Murray should have intercepted, a ball which then landed in
	Adrian Jarrell's hands for a first and goal at the two.  Rodney
	Culver punched over the game winner with 0:34 on the clock,
	sending a Spartan Stadium record crowd of 80,401 home glum...
 
 
NEBRASKA (3-0) 56, Minnesota (1-2) 0  (Pred:  NEBRASKA 44, Minnesota 13):
	Blowout city.  Nebraska blitzed the Gophers to the tune of
	42-0 in the first half before 76,354 happy Cornhuskers.  Hopefully,
	the Gophers will quit scheduling the Huskers, because this seems
	to happen every year.  Over 550 yards for Nebraska, over 1500
	now given up by Minnesota in three games...
 
 
RICE (2-1) 31, Northwestern (0-2) 14  (Pred:  RICE 37, Northwestern 29):
	This was a good game for one half.  Just a 7-7 tie at the break
	before the Owls blew it open with 21 third quarter points.  Rice
	dominated the game statistically, too, and it was warm in Houston.
	Just 15,300 in attendance in an 80,000 seat stadium (kind of
	like the LA Raiders?)...
 
 
OHIO STATE (2-0) was off...
 
 
PURDUE (1-1) 41, Indiana State (1-3) 13  (Pred:  PURDUE 38, ISU 12):
	ISU, one of Southern Illinois' brothers in the Gateway
	Conference, looked as though it would score first, having a
	first and goal at the four halfway through the first quarter.
	But, the Boiler defense pushed the Sycamores back and then
	blocked a FG attempt.  From then on it was all Purdue, as
	Eric Hunter riddled ISU with four long TD bombs (32, 39,
	36, and 71 yards), mostly by buying time, as he does so
	well.  He ended up 15-27 for 291 yards, and still no
	interceptions this year.  The Run and Shoot is good for the
	quick strike, but not for consuming clock.  Purdue even
	gained over 100 yards rushing, which hasn't happened for
	a while.  Purdue might be feeling better about itself after
	seeing how Washington destroyed USC.  Over 40,000 at Ross-Ade
	Stadium, which endured a first quarter downpour...
 
 
Temple (2-2) 24, WISCONSIN (1-2) 18  (Pred:  Temple 24, WISCONSIN 20):
	The Badgers fought back from a 7-3 halftime deficit to lead
	to lead 18-14 in the closing minutes, only to see Temple
	run for a 32 yard TD and kick a game-icing FG.  Badger QB
	Tony Lowery passed for 294 yards and a TD.  No attendance
	figure given...
 
 
 
COMING UP THIS SATURDAY:
 
	Illinois is off
	Eastern Michigan at Indiana
	Iowa at Miami (Florida)
	Maryland at Michigan
	Rutgers at Michigan State
	Minnesota is off
	Northern Illinois at Northwestern	ESPN
	Southern California at Ohio State	ABC
	Purdue at Notre Dame			SportsChannel America
	Wisconsin is off
 
 
 
STANDINGS:
 
	Ohio State	2-0		 48-20
	Indiana		2-0		103-31
	Iowa		2-0		108-45
	Illinois	2-1		 95-71
	Michigan	1-1		 62-43
	Purdue		1-1		 55-33
	Michigan State	0-1-1		 42-43
	Wisconsin	1-2		 54-59
	Minnesota	1-2		 49-107
	Northwestern	0-2		 38-58
-- 
_________________
| Randy Peppler |_____________ 
| Illinois State Water Survey|  Quaffing Bud in St. Louis:  "to drink deeply
| peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu   |  	in a hearty or thirsty way..."

    Why oh why does Michigan drop its secondary so deep?
    
    Dick Vermeil summed it up after a series of 10-20 yd pass completions
    by the young Maddox (who indeed looks like a future star, he has an
    arm and is accurate - just made a few critical stupid decisions is all).
    
    Anyway, Vermeil - whom I like a lot as a college analyst - said after a
    completion in front of poor supertalented Trip Wellborne under instructions
    to not challenge the receiver, "Moeller has brought a lot of advanced
    concepts to Michigan's offense, but he plays the same defense as Bo."
    
    Now, after years of watching teams march against more talented Michigan
    teams in Rose Bowls and non-conference games, I cain only conclude that
    old Bo, and now Moeller, would rather lose a game slowly than looking 
    bad by giving up the long pass.  
    
    In the past two games they've dropped their unbelievably talented 
    DBs and safeties behind receivers being thrown to by first year QBs.
    
    Gimme a coach who plays to win anytime.
    
    Hey Charles, do ya think the Hoosiers are for real this year?
    
    Big10 Tom

	You can't really tell yet about the Hoosiers.  Kentucky has clearly
	demonstrated they're everybody's patsy, and there's no indication
	that Missouri will represent a test for many teams.  The Hoosiers 
	have Eastern Michigan (!) and Northwestern next, so we won't
	know how good they are till after the 5th game (Ohio State).

	Having said that:

	The offense this year is much more diversified.  Thompson was a great
	running back, but obviously wasn't a breakaway threat.  Combined with
	the complete lack of a deep threat in the passing game, defenses
	could play 8 or 9 people against the run and not worry about getting
	hit with the big play.  This year, Vaughn Dunbar gives them a 
	legitimate breakaway threat at tailback, and Rob Turner is once
	again giving them the deep threat in the passing game.  He also can
	break a return at any time (2 65-yard TD punt returns already).  The
	real question on offense is the line.  A combination of injuries and
	defections has left them very thin and vulnerable in that area.

	Defensively, 8 or 9 starters returned from last year's solid but
	unspectacular unit.  The big question, as always, is whether they 
	can stop the running game of teams like Michigan and Ohio State.

tom

    
    I'm interested in seeing how good Indiana really is.  That matchup with
    Missouri was supposed to be a close game.
    
    glenn

    >10/8 also-rans
    
    That "Big/2 Little 8" concept is dated.  Ohio State was picked just
    behind Indiana during the preseason.  Number two in the conference is
    now the Spartans with the Illini close behind.  The Hawkeyes had a 
    down year or two, but certainly have the underlying base to take on
    any of the second tier (i.e., non-Michigan) teams.
    
    As for the Hoosiers, didn't Missouri play a big-time team tough on
    Saturday?  I think they ARE good cuz a the way they're beating up on
    what little comp they've seen thus far, resting the 1st team the entire
    second half against Missouri, etc.
    
    It's true, we don't find out until the Buckeye game, but I think
    they'll play 'em tough and might even be favored (especially if it's
    at Memorial Stadium).  
    
    I'm encouraged.  Mallory red-shirted all his freshman from his first
    year and had a nearly all 5th year senior squad last year.  '90 was
    the big moment to find out whether Mallory's recruiting during the 
    first phase of his rebuilding program had the basic quality such that
    once all the seniors graduated they'd be competitive.
    
    They're competitive.  I think that their only blowout this year will
    be Michigan, a team that minus Gary Moeller is probably the best in the
    nation.  Indiana should play competitive ball against State, Ohio State,
    and Illinois, and could end up as good as 8-3 and in a second tire bowl,
    where they've had a lotta success relatively speaking.
    
    Also fascinating is Purdue.  They took Washington to the wire one week
    and Washington stomps SC the next.  On paper this should mean that
    Purdue is as good as Ohio State, who lost to SC at home.  Being competitive
    against the Buckeyes in the same year was once unthinkable for the two
    Hoosier schools.
    
    This year's Old Oaken Bucket could be a genuine quality game, maybe
    even with bowl implications!  *That* hasn't happened since the late 
    60s I don't believe.
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    > As for the Hoosiers, didn't Missouri play a big-time team tough on
    > Saturday?  I think they ARE good cuz a the way they're beating up on
    > what little comp they've seen thus far, resting the 1st team the entire
    > second half against Missouri, etc.
    
    Missouri knocked off unbeaten and previously 21st ranked Arizona State
    in a rout, 30-9.
    
    Only four games into the season, every team in that excellent PAC-10
    conference has at least one loss.  Only USC and Arizona have not lost
    out of conference.  I still say they're overrated.
    
    glenn
    

    >I still say they're overrated.
    
    If you take you're approach at focusing on the top team.  The point
    is that the conference is very deep.  Didn't Oregon knock off BYU?
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    > If you take you're approach at focusing on the top team.  The point
    > is that the conference is very deep.  Didn't Oregon knock off BYU?
    
    Yes, which is another case of an overrated getting knocked down a peg.  
    Weren't you the guy hammering Virginia?  BYU is even more so...
    
    I said from the beginning that I'd look at the quality of the team(s)
    at the top and weigh that more heavily than the team(s) at the bottom.
    Doesn't that make sense?  (It fits in with the much-debated
    champeenship theory, of which I'll admit I'm not a full subscriber to.)
    Besides, Oregon St. is one of the country's worst, and Washington St. 
    has already been pasted by two WAC teams.  Missouri is a Big-8 doormat
    and handled one of the PAC-10's middle-to-uppers, Arizona St.   
    
    The overall non-conference record of the PAC-10 isn't holding up too 
    well, either, as I've pointed out.  I'll admit a slight bias as the
    Big-8 has really laid it on the PAC-10, in spite of Stanford's heroic
    effort versus Colorado, with head-to-head victories from Colorado
    against Washington and Oklahoma against UCLA, both fair matchups of
    conference powers.  But even by PAC-10 standards, it has not been a 
    stellar year to date.
    
    glenn
    

    Yes, that's true.  The Pac10 is not having a tip-top year.  So far.
    But the issue as brought up was a long-term one, and though I have
    no data to go on I've always secretly felt that they were the toughest
    overall, with the SEC second.
    
    The Big10 is looking a lot better.  They're building some depth in 
    the mid-rank and, after all, let us not forget the sea change
    fundamental positive that the brain dead Bo Schembechler has taken his
    "talents" to the unsuspecting Detroit Tigers.
    
    If both Indiana and Purdue legitimize themselves this year, this could
    be the deepest year ever in the Big10.  Forget the salivating salacious
    subjectivism from the stonewalling Bob "S." Hunt, the Big10 gridiron 
    squads have been going up against some tough stuff.  Michigan's cherry
    picking days will be ended soon!
     
    Big10 Tom

    
    In the '80s the PAC-10 had a less than 40% winning record against the
    SEC.  It is less than 35% all time. Want to reverse those rankings?

    Re: T asked do you think the Hoosiers are for real?
    
    I don't know.
    
    Charles
    

    We'll find out a week from Saturday, when they take on the Buckeyes.
    
    I just read a complete preconference review (I'll type it in soon) and
    the consensus seems to be that the Hoosiers should take second, and
    have a long shot at knocking off Michigan.  Ohio State is rebuilding
    on defense, Illinois on offense, and State is also not in a peak year.
    Things are lining up nicely for Indiana.  They've got an open shot at
    a quality bowl appearance.  If they don't attain that they'll have no
    excuses.
    
    Cain't wait to find out.  Also cain't wait to wreak revenge against
    the SpoilerMakers for what they did that awful November afternoon last
    fall :^(  ...
    
    Big10 Tom

From: peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: Big Ten REVIEW (9-29-90)
Date: 2 Oct 90 21:08:39 GMT
 
[...]
     
LAST WEEK IN THE BIG TEN (9-29):
 
 
ILLINOIS (2-1) was off...  This week:  At Ohio State
 
 
INDIANA (3-0) 37, Eastern Michigan (2-3) 6  (Pred:  INDIANA 45, Eastern
	Michigan 17):  The Hoosiers had a fairly easy time of it though
	they didn't gain that much yardage.  Some EMU turnovers and
	a Vaughn Dunbar 76 yard kickoff return were big plays in the
	game.  The story of the day was the IU defense.  Just over
	40,000 on hand...
 
 
MIAMI, FL (2-1) 48, Iowa (2-1) 21  (Pred:  MIAMI 38, Iowa 23):  Iowa
	gave the 'Canes a good game for most of three quarters (trailing
	just 24-21 at one point) before running out of gas.  Craig
	Erickson threw for 360 yards and 3 TDs.  Matt Rodgers did well,
	too, throwing for 275 yards and 2 TDs, but the Iowa running
	game was pretty much stuffed by Miami.  Not a bad performance
	for Iowa.  70,000 at the Orange Bowl...
 
 
MICHIGAN (2-1) 45, Maryland (3-2) 17  (Pred:   MICHIGAN 31, Maryland 16):
	Though Maryland held Jon Vaughn to only 89 yards and outpassed
	the Wolverines, they still got clobbered.  Six big turnovers killed
	the Terps.  Gary Moeller was none too happy with his team's
	performance after the game.  Yet, another huge win for
	the #3 team in the land.  Almost 103,000 in attendance...
 
 
Michigan State (1-1-1) 34, RUTGERS (2-3) 10  (Pred:   Michigan State 27,
	RUTGERS 17):  The Spartans blew open a 10-10 halftime deadlock
	with 14 points in the third quarter.  Tico Duckett shredded the
	Rutgers defense for 229 yards on 33 carries, while Dan Enos
	passed for 146 on an 11-14 day.  John Langeloh is now just one
	point behind the immortal Morten Andersen on the all-time kick-
	scoring list at MSU.  Just 26,188 on hand at the Meadowlands...
 
 
MINNESOTA (1-2) was off...  This week:  at Purdue.
 
 
NORTHWESTERN (1-2) 24, Northern Illinois (2-3) 7  (Pred:  NORTHWESTERN 37,
	NIU 31):  Wow!  The Cats put up some tough D against a team which
	likes to score a lot.  I think NU is better than we have given
	them credit for being, and will knock off a couple of foes this
	year in Evanston.  Bob Christian carried the ball an amazing
	43 times for 179 yards.  NIU QB Stacey Robinson carried for 92
	yards but passed for only 16 yards in a dismal 4-13 day.  27,000
	at Dyche Stadium...
 
 
Southern California (3-1) 35, OHIO STATE (2-1) 26  (Pred:  USC 24,
	OHIO STATE 20):  SC pretty much put the wood to the Buckeyes,
	beginning with a blocked punt for a touchdown early.  It was
	14-zip before OSU put 10 points on the board, but SC got the
	next two scores to put the game out of reach.  A violent
	thunderstorm put an end to the procedings with just over
	2 minutes left.  Ricky Ervins ran for 199 yards while Robert
	Smith was held to 54.  Greg Frey threw for 262 yards for the
	Buckeyes.  The new field at Ohio Stadium looks tremendous!
	Over 89,000 wet, disappointed fans witnessed this game...
 
 
NOTRE DAME (3-0) 37, Purdue (1-2) 11  (Pred:  NOTRE DAME 31, Purdue 14):
	Notre Dame did it's usual to Purdue despite Eric Hunter going
	21-37 for 354 yards and a TD.  The turning point came early in
	the 2nd period when the Irish, up 13-3, killed a Purdue drive deep
	in Irish territory by blindsiding Hunter and causing a fumble.
	The Irish recovered the ball after a mad scramble, and on their
	first play from scrimmage, Rocket Ismail streaked down the near
	sideline for a 64 yard TD.  20-3, game over.  Purdue's running
	game was pathetic as usual.  Chris Zorich is a bonafide monster.
	Good story about him in SI this week.  The usual 59,075 at Notre
	Dame Stadium...
 
 
WISCONSIN (1-2) was off...  This week:  vs. Michigan.
 
 
THIS WEEK (all times Central):
 
		Illinois at Ohio State		ABC, 2:30 pm (regional)
		Indiana at Northwestern		1:05 pm
		Iowa at Michigan State		12:00 pm
		Michigan at Wisconsin		1:05 pm
		Minnesota at Purdue		1:00 pm
-- 
_________________
| Randy Peppler |_____________ 
| Illinois State Water Survey|  Quaffing Bud in St. Louis:  "to drink deeply
| peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu   |  	in a hearty or thirsty way..."

    Apparently, there's a new book out, or soon to be out about shenanigans
    going on at Michigan State.  I'd like to know more about it, and I
    expect in the future I will, but that I don't know now is a result of
    some incredibly bad reporting by ESPN's Lee Corso.
    
    Corso, an ex-Big Ten football coach, fell on his sword rather than
    inform his viewers the other day.  He mentioned the book, mentioned it
    was about misconduct at Michigan State and then advised the audience to
    disregard the contents of the book (without telling us) because
    "according to his sources" the authors didn't interview the Michigan
    State coach (scumball George Perles) or some other State
    representative.  That's his report, period.
    
    Why does ESPN think they need these loser ex-coaches to be in the
    studio?  This guy is just a shill.
    
    Dan

    
    Corso's an idiot.  I think the only reason he's on is for his supposed
    sense of humor and enthusiasm, which are really lame, far worse than
    Vitale, IMO.
    
    glenn
    

    >This guy is just a shill.
    
    Classic path-o-Dan: He's upset cuz, unlike him, some commentator won't
    draw conclusions based on a_innuendo-infused scenario void of solid
    factual information.  So sorry, path-o, but your penchant for operating
    opinion as fact ain't shared by everybody.
    
    And while you're calling people "scumbags" and "shills" let us recall 
    your *own* thrill-a-shill track record in here:
    
    - Dan defends Phil-the-Shill Rizzuto
    - Dan defends Tark-the-Dark
    - Dan defends Louie CarnageSickum's Big Beast violence
    - Dan defends "coach" John Stompshim's heroic boycott for stupidity
    - Dan criticizes coach for cutting his eligible star
    - Dan defends "coach" 'Snuffy Smif' for wrist-slapping woman beater
    - Dan sleeps clutching Michael Graham doll to his chest
    
    To touch on just a few by way of higher level sampling overview...
    
    Big10 Tom

    MorT, don't be so stupid.  Surely you can't blame me (although you can
    try) for Corso's lousy reporting job.
    
    >He's upset cuz, unlike him, some commentator won't
    >draw conclusions based on a_innuendo-infused scenario void of solid
    >factual information. 
    
    Quit making stuff up.  (Like that will really stop him...)  I was upset
    because Corso-the-shill wouldn't even present any information in the
    book (which would be a journalist's duty, if he was one), whether the
    accusations are true or false.  He, like you, was just into protecting
    the Big 10 from prying eyes, and it was obvious to viewers. 
    Corso-the-shill knocked the book by giving lame reasons coming from
    unnamed sources.
    
    What is it with you Big 10 athletic supporters and this shameless
    covering up of information?
    
    Dan

    Until you reveal the substantive information that he's allegedly 
    covering up then your assertion-as-fact that there IS a cover-up
    is just more Dan M.U.ing in the pasture and nothing more.
    
    Also, despite the obvious point that the term "sports journalist"
    is a_oxymoron, your conspiracy theory fails to note that whatever's
    said on the air is subjected to prior review by the editor approving
    the script to be read.  Is Mr. Editor a Big10 conspirator too?
    
    You haven't even presented a shred of factual information and you're
    not even embarrassed at what you're doing.  No surprise, coming from
    a_unindicted co-conspirator.
    
    Where were you in the sleazoid revelations about GougeTown, NC Skate,
    Florida, Oklahoma, Pittsburgh, and all the rest?  You're biased, and
    bear a bigoted attitude in matters affecting the well-being of the
    nation.
           
    Big10 Tom
    

    >You haven't even presented a shred of factual information and you're
    >not even embarrassed at what you're doing.
    
    On the contrary, I've only presented factual information which I
    haven't the least inclination to be embarrassed about.
    
    - There's a new book out which airs some of the alleged dirty laundry
    at Michigan State.
    
    - I don't know any of the specifics contents of the book.
    
    - An ex-Big Ten coach presented this information without mentioning any
    of the specific contents of the book.
    
    - Rather, he questioned the contents without presenting them in a very
    suspicious manner, citing his secret "sources" claiming the book's
    co-authors didn't talk to two certain people at Michigan State.
    
    In my opinion, Corso is continuing to shill for the Big Ten in the
    guise of ESPN's college football analyst.
    
    I don't care what MorT's ultra-bigotted opinion is on this subject but
    I'll listen to others if they think I'm jumping to conclusions.
    
    Dan
    

    
    I think Corso is a shill for the entire NCAA, myself.  He's a
    smoocher....
    
    glenn
    

    Oh, puh-lease, stop it, ha ha, stop it, you're ha ha killing me.   No,
    really, no more, I ha ha cain't take it.   Puh-lease stop, who hoo hoo
    hoo.   Oh-ha-ha-ha-hee-hee-ha-ha.  Owwwwwww ...
    
    Nice refs you got there, Big Ten.  Now I know what the "Fifth Down"
    Colorado 7 did on Saturday.  They went and refereed the
    Michigan-Michigan State game, didn't they ???
    
    Let's see what we got here.   Michigan, a Big Ten team, is ranked No. 1
    and is playing another Big Ten team, Michigan State, at home in Ann
    Arbor in front of the usual 100,000+ fans of the Maize and Blue.
    
    And then the Big Ten referees take it all away from them with a
    terrible non-call.  Desmond Howard was both grabbed *and* tripped while
    the two-point pass was in the air.   Then he caught it *and* held it
    long enough for a catch.   And then he dropped it when his shoulder hit
    the ground.
    
    And the refs keep their hankies in their pockets *and* call it an
    incomplete pass.    This is where I start laughing uncontrollably and
    wiping the tears from my eyes.  Because who benefits the most from all
    this mess ???   That's right, Virginia, an ACC team, now vaults to the
    Number One spot.
    
    Excuse me, I have to go clean my glasses and wipe my eyes again.  This
    is just way too funny.
    
    Thanks, Big Ten refs.   Your incompetence is incredible but your timing
    is exquisite.
    
    Bob Hunt

    That was a terrible call, probably cost the Wolverines the national
    championship now that Bo is not there.....
    

    I feel bad for Michigan, too.  They got jobbed big time.
    
    I just find it deliciously ironic that Michigan and the Big Ten's
    incompetent misfortune is Virginia's and the ACC's fortune.  
    Especially in light of the bigot's latest hot button.
    
    You could almost see it in George Perles' eyes as he held the post-game
    press conference.  He was happy but subdued since he knew he was
    bringing home tainted spoils that helped no one in his conference.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Indiana got hosed by an official who obviously feels an excessive
    amount of self-importance.
    
    Michigan got hosed by an official who obviously has an inferiority
    complex.
    
    glenn

    Oh, yeah, I forgot about the Indiana-Ohio State tie game and the job
    the refs pulled in *that* one.  I saw it on the highlights but I don't
    recall now what the bad call was.
    
    Anyways, so much for the high and mighty Hoosiers.  Could only manage a
    tie with the weaker sister Buckeyes.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    
    Wasn't there another bad call in the Michigan game that went in
    Michigan's favor?  I believe it was a fumble by Michigan, but was not
    called.  Michigan went on to score on the next play.  What goes around
    usually comes around.
    
    
    Dave
    

    The Hoosier hose job wasn't nearly as awful as Michigan's.  All
    this on one play:
    
    1. Pass interference (defensive holding with the grabbed jersey)
    2. Pass interference (tackling would-be receiver with grabbed foot)
    3. Stolen touchdown (receiver had definite control of ball with two
       hands pinning it against his shoulder pad)
    4. Stolen touchdown (ground can not cause a fumble, and anyway plane
       of goal line was already broken)
    
    The head referee summed it up thusly, "for ball control one of three
    things must be true, the player must be able to either run with the 
    ball, throw the ball, or kick the ball.  No way could he have run with
    the ball."
    
    What he's basically saying here is that the TD was denied cuz of bad
    form.  
    
    Later Saturday afternoon I tried it myself, I pinned a football with 
    two hands against my muscular shoulder and ran.  I could!  True, if 
    somebody had grabbed my foot I probably woulda fallen, but that's 
    not at issue, now is it.
    
    After the screw-job Michigan got in the Rose Bowl last year, and now 
    this, it's apparent they just aren't meant to win it all.
    
    Congrat's to Virgina, though.  Such a way to vault into #1 is entirely
    in keeping with the shabby route they took leading up to it.  One winces
    at the cupcake selection they'll inevitably make come bowl time.
    
    Big10 Tom

    One winces at the cupcake selection they'll inevitably make come
    ^^^
    bowl time.
    
    
    
    Yes, T, you're the one.
    
    	--dan'l
    

    > "No. 1 Ranked Virginia Cavaliers"
    
    No. 1 Rank Virgina Cavaliers would be a more honest and manlike way
    of putting it.
    
    > -< Another Big Ten team down in flames >-
    
    Give any of 4 Big10 squads a schedule containing only Tech and ClemSuck
    and a Nat'l Championship would be very possible, with two definite.
    
    >so much for the high and mighty Hoosiers
    
    They were ranked, probably accurately, at #22.  Not #2.
    
    >Could only manage a tie with the weaker sister Buckeyes.
    
    Those weaker sister Buckeyes would be the toughest team on prissy 
    Virgina's schedule very possibly.  Remember that the Bucks have played
    SoCal to the wire, beat upstart Texas Tech, stomped Boston College,
    and played top10 Illinois tough.
    
    Ohio State has a few holes on D, but they're a very talented team,
    with one of the better offenses around.  (Don't compare them to
    Virgina's vaunted offense, Witch, cuz the Bucks have been playing 
    real defenses for real competition.)
    
    I was basically very pleased with the Hoosier game.  They blew a win
    with turnovers and penalties, but they went up against a potent offense
    and outgained them by a hundred yards or so.
    
    For the first time in my life I saw a Hoosier team on the field with
    Ohio State and saw near parity in talent (Ohio State seemed to have
    more blue chippers, but overall is what counts in football).  
    
    Vaughn Dunbar is very good, the offensive line is too.  The receiver
    corps is the best Indiana's every had.  Their secondary seemed quite
    good, but did too much tackling cuz a Indiana's biggest weakness: the
    defensive line.
    
    QB Trent Green was the difference, his inexperience and mistakes glaring
    in comparison to NFL-bound Frey.  But he'll improve.  By bowl time the
    Hoosiers could be a spoilermaker.  Here's hoping that Trent improves in
    time for the State and Illini games (with their weak D-line the Hoosiers
    have no chance against Michigan).
    
    Overall, the Big10 is very deep this year.  The upsets will continue.
    
    Big10 Tom

    >>They were ranked, probably accurately, at #22.  Not #2.
    
    >And they played like it, didn't they ???
    
    Yes, they did.  Anything wrong with a team playing up to its 
    billing?  (I cain see where this would be a sensitive subject
    with you.)
    
    >Unlike the #2 ranked Wahoos who won 31-0 and dominated.
    
    I agree with you that the #2 Wahoos did NOT play up to their ranking,
    given the sad-sack "competition" they were going up against (they 
    were no Ohio State, that's fer sure).
    
    re .100
    
    I don't see the comparison.  The football Hoosiers make no pretense
    at all-time greatness - a firmament where excellent losses in championship 
    situations is impermissable -  only that they deserve a top 25 ranking
    cuz they could stay on the field against a big fast strong squad.
    
    The stadium they play in isn't named Bill Mallory Stadium and no claims
    are made about having the best program in the country.  That, ACCaught,
    is the difference between the multitude of hypocritical "excellent
    losses" of your tragic 'Snuffy and Saturday's excellent tie.
    
    May I refer you to the Bob Hunt/Virgina approach, that not of the 
    excellent loss but instead of the tainted victory?
    
    You guys keel me.  I'm overjoyed at this year's Hoosiers, even if they
    lose State, Illinois and Michigan they still end up 7-3-1 and will have
    played six tough opponents and will be properly ranked at about probably
    #30 or so.  Fine by me, cuz this year was the big moment for Mallory's
    program-building effort, with his second wave of good recruits showing
    the size, strength and speed to stay on the field against top competition,
    something they very rarely did in the past.
    
    Big10 Tom

    
>    Give any of 4 Big10 squads a schedule containing only Tech and ClemSuck
>    and a Nat'l Championship would be very possible, with two definite.
    
  For years all there was OSU and Michigan and they couldn't win it then
  why should now be any different?
    
>    Those weaker sister Buckeyes would be the toughest team on prissy 
>    Virgina's schedule very possibly.  Remember that the Bucks have played
>    SoCal to the wire, beat upstart Texas Tech, stomped Boston College,
>    and played top10 Illinois tough.
    
 
 So Cal controled the game from start to finish the 8 points they won my was
 the closest the game was after they took a 14-10 lead early in the second 
 quarter. BC is punching bag. Don't know about Texas Tech but will grant you
 that Illni are tough. 

 mike

 PS. Worn Moon (tm) 16 passing TD's and 1 rushing this year, yeah he really
 misses Glandville.....

 

How about Illinois?

They seemed to handle the Boilermakers rather handily Saturday. They've
already beaten that up and comer Ohio St. This week they should be
Michigan State.

In any case, they seem to be a team that is controlling its own destiny
and not leaving the outcome of the game to the refs.

TTom

    
    I watched the entire OSU-Indiana game an fail to remember any bad calls
    going the way of OSU.. if someone does please refresh my memory.  
    
    Now the week before in the OSU-Illinois game..  that's a different
    story, they're were all kinds of bad calls all going AGAINST the Bucks.  
    A forward lateral by a player who was down prior to the lateral, going
    for a touchdown on a blocked punt comes to mind.  
    
    Anyhow.. looks like the Big-Ten refs are trying to eliminate home field 
    advantage this year.  
    
    /Jeff

    It was a blocked FG, not a punt...
    

    
    Re: .104
    
>How about Illinois?
    
    
>In any case, they seem to be a team that is controlling its own destiny
>and not leaving the outcome of the game to the refs.
    
    Snuck that one in on me.
    
    Did you watch the OSU Illinois game?   They definetly got some help
    from the officials... 
    
    /Jeff

	Don't know whether they were BAD calls or not, but two *important*
	calls went against the Hoosiers.  Late in the first half, with
	Indiana driving, a first down was called back with an illegal
	formation call.  Indiana had to punt, and Ohio St. drove for a
	touchdown with time running out in the half.

	With 2 minutes left, an Indiana touchdown was called back by a 
	holding penalty.  The Indiana player penalized said there was no
	holding (don't they always?).  The Hoosiers settled for the field
	goal which tied the game.

	This game, by the way, had the fewest penalties I've seen in a game
	in quite a while.  I believe the final total was: 

		Ohio State - 1 (10 yards)
		Indiana	   - 4 (25 yards)


tom

    > I watched the entire OSU-Indiana game an fail to remember any bad calls
    > going the way of OSU.. if someone does please refresh my memory.  
    
    Indiana running back is barreling his way into the end zone, when, very
    late in the play, an IU lineman reaches up and momentarily grabs his 
    defender by the leg.  In my opinion, this "hold" was very brief,
    ineffective, and would not have prevented the runner from scoring.  
    Because it did occur slightly before the runner had blown by him and
    entered the end zone, technically by the rules it is a penalty.  But
    because a penalty of this sort can be called on almost any play from 
    scrimmage, I thought it was an inappropriate call for such a minor 
    infraction on a goal line running play up the middle in the final 
    minutes of the game.  The sentiment "let 'em play" comes to mind.
    
    For those that hate tie games, OSU's Cooper inexplicably layed down 
    when he got the ball back with about a minute to go, and Indiana was
    almost able to get back into field goal position with seconds left.    
    
    glenn
    

    Glad to see Indiana fielding a strong team. Guess I am going to see
    a real competetive game next September 7( 9/7/91) when the Hoosiers
    travel to South Bend to play the Irish. Will this be the first time
    that all three Div 1 college footbaqll teams in the state( IU,Purdue,
    and ND ) play each other in the same year. Ya think there should be
    some football equivalent of the Old Oaken Bucket award??
    
    ML
     

    ND has played IU in the past but I'm not sure if they played IU and PU
    in the same year.  I think ND plays 4 Big Ten schools in the next 2
    years - Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State and Purdue.  It's only a two
    year contract with Indiana.  In 1995 and 1996, they interrupt their
    series with Michigan for two years to play Ohio State.  This will be
    the first time they've played the Bucks since 1935-36, when ND beat the
    Bucks at Columbus when an end named Bill Shakespeare caught the winning
    TD pass late in the game.  Ohio State ended the series at that point,
    claiming it was unfair to have their own fans cheering for Notre Dame
    during a game in Columbus.
    
    The Old Oaken Bucket is a football award.  It's given to the winner of
    the annual IU vs PU game.
    
    John

	A lot of Ohio State alums are extremely dissatisfied with
	Cooper.  The ones I talked to after Saturday's game weren't
	happy, and their feelings were expressed best by one who said
	"Cooper is SUCH a wimp".

	Saturday's tie, of course, followed closely on the heels of
	Cooper "giving up" in the USC game.  (A story the next week in the
	student newspaper began: "Coop, Coop, Cooper is a quit, quit, 
	quitter").  His explanation in both cases was that there wasn't
	much chance of winning.  It sounds like the fans, and some of the
	players, are getting tired of his attitude.

tom

    >That was a terrible call, probably cost the Wolverines the national
    >championship now that Bo is not there.....
    
    Naw, if it mattered that much, they would lose the Rose Bowl for sure.
    
    Dan

    Thanks John,I thought that the Old Oaken Bucket was for basketball
    between IU and PU. 
    It'll be nice to see ND renew their rivalry with the Buckeyes. When I
    was in school at ND, the rumor was that Ohio St didn't want any part
    of the Irish but that was probably breast-beating. Should be
    interesting
    
    If I had my druthers, I'd catch the last game of the '91 football
    schedule,11/30 at Hawaii.  Think these guys will give the Irish tough
    game. Better than the Irish opener in '92 against Northwestern. I hope
    ND is not going to re-open THAT Big-Ten rivalry again.
    
    ML
     

    Notre Dame playing Northwestern?  Gawd, the poor 'Cats.  They take
    enough of a beating from the rest of their Big Ten brethren.
    
    ND - Northwestern used to be a pretty good rivalry, too, especially
    when Parseghian was at NW before going to ND.
    
    It's going to be ugly.
    
    John

    >Remember that the Bucks have played SoCal to the wire,
    
    Not quite.  OSU got beaten pretty good in that game, showing an
    inability to stop the run.  THey made a late score to make the final
    score somewhat respectable, but even their coach threw in the towel
    to inclement weather rather than play the game out.  He didn't need to
    see the wire that you have falsely alleged they played to.
    
    Dan

    >If I had my druthers, I'd catch the last game of the '91 football
    >schedule,11/30 at Hawaii.  Think these guys will give the Irish tough
    >game. Better than the Irish opener in '92 against Northwestern. I hope
    >ND is not going to re-open THAT Big-Ten rivalry again.
    
    So this is how ND went about replacing Miami on the schedule, eh? 
    Indiana, Northwestern, Hawaii.  How embarassing it must be for the
    "See no evil" crowd.
    
    Dan

    That's right Dan, ND wasn't allowed to schedule USC two times in one
    year so they went with tougher foes. Didn't want the Trojans losing
    streak to reach epic proportions too quickly.
    
    Can't wait to feast on Trojan near Turkey day!
    
    ML
    
     

    Umm Dan,  Oh Danny boy, hey danny, danny, danny...
    
    As widely published, Notre Dame will play Florida State.  And Danny,
    yoooo hoooooooooooo Danny, care to take a look at the big tuff Miami
    Hurricanes schedule over the last 20 years or so, and decide who,
    year in, year out, plays a tougher schedule.  C'mon Danny boy.
    
    Toodle loo...
    
    JD

    I'm a big U of M fan, and I agree they got robbed. BUT, the defense
    should have held sometime in the 4th quarter, and when you create
    a break like you do at the end of the 1st half, you need to
    capitalize on it.  They missed a 35 yd fg that should have been made.
    The way I see it, it shouldn't have come down to the last play.  But
    they did get hosed big time.  At least it wasn't in E. Lansing.
    
    -Walt

    >As widely published, Notre Dame will play Florida State.
    
    JD, you already got caught with your foot deeply wedged in your mouth
    on this ND schedule business.  Why do you feel the need to start
    feeding on the poor apendage again.
    
    ND picked up Florida State because they dropped Penn St., not Miami. 
    Remember, they dropped Miami because they didn't like losing to them.
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    And as I pointed out, the only way ND could have kept Miami on the
    schedule is if Miami dropped (I.E. bought out) the contract they
    signed to play patsies after this Miami-ND series ran out.  Penn
    State asked to be dropped, and ND, unlike Miami, didn't go out and
    schedule Kansas State - they picked up Florida State - a fine team.
    
    Toodle Loo
    
    JD

    >And as I pointed out, the only way ND could have kept Miami on the
    >schedule is if Miami dropped (I.E. bought out) the contract they
    >signed to play patsies after this Miami-ND series ran out.
    
    You can keep on pretending that this was just an act of circumstance,
    but I doubt that even your fellow "See no evil" ND fans would agree
    with you.
    
    Face it, they chickened out.  ND turned tail.  ND has a yellow streak
    running right up their back where their spine should be.  And that's
    why Lou Holtz is the perfect coach for Propaganda U, and their fans who
    pass it on.
    
    Dan

    
    Danny Boy,
    
    Why are your HomeBoys angling to play in the HomeBowl again this year.
    
    Is it 'cause they choke on the big one when they have to leave mama?
    
    Bob V.
    

The refs for the Michigan-Michigan St have apologized to Michigan for
blowing call on their 2-point conversion play. I'm sure it was graciously
accepted.

Based on recent history - we've seen mention of the refs helping both
Michigan St and Illinois - would anyone care to predict who gets hosed
this weekend when the Spartans travel to the Illini.

TTom

    >For years all there was OSU and MIchigan and they couldn't win it then
    >why should now be any different?
    
    Go get your GED in reading and understand that I was hypothesizing that
    the Wolverines were playing a homosexual-style "schedule" of the likes
    seen by Virgina, GaTech, or ClemSuck.  They don't, but if they were in
    their position they'd be undefeated, ranked #1, and able to choose a
    minimal acceptable opponent in any bowl of their selection and wrap up
    a Mythical by way of CLOP (Craven Lack Of Pride).
    
    That's why.
    
    Dan, the work you're doing on ND is misguided.  As a_independent they're
    forced to intentionally schedule cupcakes in order to avoid scheduling
    themselves directly into the emergency room.  The Irish historically
    have played a tough schedule, and certainly have nothing to apologize
    for in that respect.  Miami, Clemson, Virgina, on the other hand...
    
    Re Ohio State vs Illini
    
    Too true.  The Bucks got screwed on a number of calls in that game, and
    Illinois was thankful to get out of the horseshoe with a_ill-gotten W.
    
    But I see State having a better shot at knocking off Michigan than
    Illinois.
    
    Big10 Tom

    I couldn't find where the discussion was taking place so I figured it
    would be appropriate here.
    
    Notre Dame's record vs the Big Ten Schools
    
    Chicago		 0-4-0
    Illinois		11-0-1  (last played in 1968)
    Indiana		19-5-1  (last played in 1958)
    Iowa		13-8-3  (last played in 1968)
    Michigan		 9-14-0 (Notre Dame's first ever opponent)
    Michigan State	38-17-1	(continuous rivalry since 1960)
    Minnesota		 4-0-1	(last played in 1938)
    Northwestern	32-8-3	(Last played in 1976)
    Ohio State		 2-0-0  (last played in 1936)
    Purdue		39-21-2	(continuous rivalry since 1946)
    Wisconsin		 8-5-2	(last played in 1964)
    
    Total		175-82-14
    
    Notre Dame has played as many as 5 Big Ten opponents in one season
    (1968) and its oldest continuous rival is Navy, whom they've played
    annually since 1927.  They've played Southern Cal continuous except for
    the war years since 1926.
    
    Finally, Notre Dame has swept Indiana and Purdue in 1901, 1919, 1920,
    1921, 1922, 1948, 1949, 1951, 1955 and 1957.  ND has been swept in 1905
    and 1950.  They beat Purdue and lost to Indiana in 1906 and beat
    Indiana and lost to Purdue in 1956 and 1958.
    
    John

    Oh, and I don't agree with the vultures in Columbus.  Coop was hired
    to work his offensive magic, which he certainly has.  The Buckeyes
    have a very good offense, featuring one a the best QBs in the game.
    Cooper's offensive scheme is good and is executed well by his players.
    
    They have a major hole in the D line (much like Indiana).  Don't know
    if he's changed D Coordinator or not, but I look for Cooper, with the
    inevitable stud-recruiting Columbus means, to solve his D problem and
    to succeed.
    
    He made the right decision at the SoCal game.  There was lightning in
    the immediate vicinity.  One unfortunate strike and there coulda been
    5,000 pieces of human toast on his conscience.  The ridiculous part is
    that they left the decision to a coach, where the hail was the Fire
    Marshal who's responsible for safety in the stadium?
    
    Big10 Tom

    
>    Go get your GED in reading and understand that I was hypothesizing that
>    the Wolverines were playing a homosexual-style "schedule" of the likes
>    seen by Virgina, GaTech, or ClemSuck.  They don't, but if they were in
>    their position they'd be undefeated, ranked #1, and able to choose a
>    minimal acceptable opponent in any bowl of their selection and wrap up
>    a Mythical by way of CLOP (Craven Lack Of Pride).
    
 
 You know what you can do with that insult T? Does the clue missing sunshine
 give you a hint? The fact of the matter is that the whole Big Ten was just the 
 type of schedule you allude to Virgina having this year. I don't seem to recall
 OSU and Michigan scheduling anything but cupcakes outside of the Big Ten during
 the seventies. When the lure of the big TV buck arrose and the CFA they then
 started to play the ND's and USC's of the world. How many times were ranking
 #1 or top 5 during those years? How many times did they get their butts handed
 to them by the Pac-10 rep in the Rose Bowl when they finally played some real
 competition? If they weren't finiacial tied to the Rose Bowl I'm sure they'd
 have run off more than once to try and CLOP a title....

 you're begining to sound like Howard...

 mike

    And you're beginning to sound like Undersecretary of State Eliot
    Abrams.  
    
    Michigan and OSU never played a pure unadulterated cowardly cupcake 
    CLOP schedule of the type seen with the shameless Almost Close's 3
    "quality" squads this year.  "I don't seem to remember..." indeed.
    
    Also, the Big10 was never as weak as the Almost Close is even today
    at its apogee.  For example, Indiana beat a highly ranked BYU in the
    Holiday Bowl in the 70s.  Not to mention success seen in the conference
    outside the conference and in bowls by State Illinois and Iowa.
    
    Do you make this crap up as you go along, or is this some wierd form
    of superironic self-mockery you've cooked up hja hja hjaaa !! [Swedish
    derisive laughter]
    
    Big10 Tom

    
 > I don't seem to recall
 > OSU and Michigan scheduling anything but cupcakes outside of the Big Ten during
 > the seventies. 
    
    I know that Ohio State had a series going with Oklahoma in the 70's,
    and Michigan did with Notre Dame.  In spite of Nebraska's schedule over
    the next few years, the idea that the big powers have *always* played 
    cupcake non-conference schedules (in much tougher conferences to boot) 
    to ensure their positions at the end of the season is so much 
    modern-day rationalization.  Rarely has a national champion supported 
    a schedule as soft as Virginia's this year, or BYU's in 1984, for that 
    matter.  
    
    glenn
    

    Anybody remember what Clemson's schedule was during their heydey
    year?
    
    Big10 Tom

    I gotta give ya credit, Bob Hunt, at least you're main enough to
    admit that Virgina's National Championship is ill-gotten.  If you'd
    only publicly denounce the ranking as is your duty as a_analyst, I'd
    rate you as one a the class acts in here.
    
    Say, did you do some grad school at CU-Boulder by any chance?
    
    And thanx for the dose of Factual Reality, glenn.  Guess we won't
    be hearing from mikey on this again...
    
    Big10 Tom                             

    Hey now!  I applaud your team and you call me low class?  What the
    hell kinda behavior is that in here.  *I* am not the one who denies
    the obvious reality of Virgina's, hell, the entire Almost Close's,
    phony gutless approach to garnering college football success.  You
    are.  I call a spade a spade and I invite anybody with a shred of
    intellectual honesty to pick up a USA Today and refer to the schedules
    and see how ridiculous the situation has become, how it's become a
    necessity to line up a bunch a homocakes and then go off bragging 
    about being the best.  The best what?  The best gutless wonders?  I
    will grant you that, but nothing more.
    
    >What national championship ???   Talk to me on January 2nd.
    
    Why wait?  Any "program" that'd put together the womanly example of
    dysfunctional approach-avoidance behavior Vanessa del Rio of a 
    "schedule" Wahoo fans are bold enough to classify as competition is
    CERTAINLY going to continue the manipulative charade and schedule the
    minimal acceptable bowl opponent.  It's a done deal.
    
    Yeah, Virgina's football squad is a "program" all right.  They read
    the book written by ClemSuck and BYU and understood it good.  
    
    The Cavaliers (O what a_appropriate name!) are the perfect symbol of
    these times: They took the easy way out, and with a_assist from
    mindless media were able to reach the top via the Low Road.  A purty
    cavalier attitude, wouldn't you say?  
    
    Milken, Boesky, easy way no pain big gain, Ronald Reagan, David Gergen,
    Newt Gingrich and yes yes YES, the gaping Virginas.
    
    This week, cuz a vagaries only seed in the once great game of college
    grid, we see the least likable representative of our very best, a #1
    who got to the top by quacking like a duck and is damned proud of it!
    It's strictly television exposure now, and they have it.
    
    People may criticize the Oklahoma Sooners when they're #1 but with 
    them at least you got a team that schedules a schedule and gets out
    there and plays kick ass football and puts it all on the line which is 
    the way it should be (but isn't).
    
    Big10 Tom  

    Man,  that Vanessad Del Rio line was the gosh darndest thang I've
    read in a long time.
    
    Yowza.
    
    JD

    "*If* the brain-dead Big Ten referees had bothered to open their
    out-to-lunch Big Ten eyes, then numbskull Michigan and the mighty Big
    Ten would still be Number 1."
    
    Bob Hunt
    

   ND had quite a few down years in the seventies and early 80's or need
   one remind you of Faust. OSU and Okalahoma don't remember that being
   a very long series how many games was it? Better yet what was the results?
   The rest of the Big ten was such pushovers that OSU and Michigan's regular
   season boiled down to the game between themselves and the one outside toughie
   that they had on their schedule. Much like Virgina's two game schedule
   this year. 

   So why are you hypothenising about what MU and OSU might do with Virgina's
   schedule cause they've already had it and did what Virgina will probably
   do blow it cause the ranking was inflated because of lack of competition.

 mike 

                                                                       
   > ND had quite a few down years in the seventies and early 80's or need
   > one remind you of Faust. OSU and Okalahoma don't remember that being
   > a very long series how many games was it? Better yet what was the results?
    
    Who's claiming that the Big-10 excelled in that era and that they were
    national championship caliber?  Not me... The bowl results proved that
    much.  You made the statement that you didn't recall Michigan and Ohio 
    State playing any tough non-conference games in the '70's.  Just from 
    memory, I gave you Oklahoma, who beat Ohio State two years in a row in
    the late 70's, and Notre Dame, who were coached not by Faust but by Dan 
    Devine and were strong throughout that period, even winning a national 
    championship in 1977.  If you're pushing me for more, I also recall
    that Ohio State played Penn State 3-4 times in the late 70's.  I 
    probably followed college football more closely in the late 70's than at 
    any other time, but I'm only working from memory on the schedules, so I
    may have missed some others.
    
    Let me also add that lowly Purdue finished in the Top 20 three straight
    years from 1978-80 (#10 in 1979), and Michigan State was also #12 in 
    1978, so the entire Little Eight were not exactly pathetic over that
    period, either.  (The rankings are not from memory.)
    
    The point is not that Michigan and Ohio State were great teams, or that
    they played consistently overwhelming schedules, but that they did *not*
    play cupcake-filled schedules that would guarantee an undefeated season
    heading into New Year's Day.  No more, no less.
    
    glenn
     

    Give it up, mikey.  Your position on this ain't serious - except 
    seriously egregious.  No *WAY* was the Big10 as weak then as the 
    Almost is now; and I think the total unmitigated uniform absolutely
    nude cupcake schedule played by the league this year is unprecedented
    in the annals of the game.  
    
    As glenn pointed out, Purdue and State were tough during that period,
    and Indiana (under Sam Wyche) got their program going again and in
    fact appeared in some bowls.  Not to mention Iowa, and the Illini,
    and...
    
    The Big2 always played big-time representative nonconference schedules,
    and did well.  My accurate factual assertion must stand that if the 
    Big10's best were in on this Almost Close fail-safe scam this year they
    would do better than Virgina, and would be more deserving of the Title
    that the Orange and Shamless will surely bag this year.
    
    Big10 Tom
    

    Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one and most of them stink!!!!!
    
    
    Noone knows who can beat who, till they play each other. H*ll, Notre
    Dame beats Michigan, and Michigan St, but loses to Stanford, so does
    that mean Stanford is better than Mich. and Mich. St.???? No!! But
    still Stanford was the better team on that day and they are capable of
    beating ANY team at ANY time.
    
    Anyway, ACC has the #1 team........You may not like it, but you better
    learn to love it, it's the best thing going today!!!!!YEA!!! :-) :-)
    
                                                  M.J.
    

    
    Anybody know how Jimmy Rodgers' kid (Matt?) is doing at Iowa?
    
    
    ML
    
    

    This coming Sunday when the Rams play the Falcons, both starting
    quarterbacks will be Purdue graduates.  Jim Everett graduated from
    Purdue after the 85 season and Scott Campbell (will be starting in
    place of injured Falcon starter Chris Miller as I understand) graduated
    two years before that.  Everett was a freshman when Campbell was a
    sophomore but Everett was redshirted so he still ended up starting two
    full seasons, like Campbell.  I wish I can watch this game, for old
    time's sake (I was a freshman when Campbell was a junior).  If the Rams
    had not released Mark Herrmann beginning of this season, Herrmann who
    is Campbell's predecessor at Purdue will also be on the sideline and
    what a Purdue QB sight and show that will be.
    
    Anyway, anyone recall another instance where in a NFL game you have two
    quarterbacks from one school starting against each other?  I can think
    of possible matchups for schools like Miami and Notre Dame in recent
    years, any other?
    
    Charles
    

    >Anyway, anyone recall another instance where in a NFL game you have two
    >quarterbacks from one school starting against each other? 
    
    Any time Montana and Theisman locked horns, which must have been about
    once a year in the early '80s. (Notre Dame)
    
    I don't know if Namath's Jets ever played Starr's Packers.  (Alabama)
    
    Miami must lead this list with the likes of Kosar, Testeverde, Walsh,
    etc. in the NFL concurrently.
    
    I'm sure there must be lots of others of these one-school matchups over
    the last 20-30 years.
    
    Dan

    Dawson(Chiefs)  vs Phipps (Browns)  Purdue, possibly briefly in early
    70's
    
    Montana vs Buerlein (raiders) ND now
    
    In the old days, early 60's, Lamonica (raiders) vs Hadl (chargers)  ND
    
    Paul macDonald (browns) vs Haden (Rams)   USC  early 80's
    
    
    Not sure if they ever met head to head but strong possibility
    
    
    
    Ml
    
    

    One small nit:
    
    John Hadl went to Kansas.  John Huarte (1964 Heisman Trophy winner)
    went to ND.
    
    John

    Hadl went to Kansas, not ND ....
    
    How about Ken Stabler vs. Namath (Alabama) ?
    Warren Moon (Oilers) vs Chandler (TB) - Washington ?
    Tony Eason (Jets) vs Jeff George or Jack Truedeu (Indy) - Illnois
    Brian Shaw (Buffalo) vs Brian Sipe (Cleveland) - San Diego State
    Jim Plunkett vs John Elway - Stanford
    Vince Evans vs Pat Haden - USC
    
    
    And of course :
    
    Any combo of 
    
    Jim McMahon, Giff Nielson (Houston), Steve Young, Marc Wilson, or
    Robbie Bosco (Packers) - BYU
    
    Jim Kelly, Bernie Kosar, and Vinne Tesderverde - Miami

    >John Huarte (1964 Heisman Trophy winner) went to ND.                
    
    John, I believe Huarte won the '65 Heisman, one of the worst Heisman
    decisions ever and another great testimony to the Notre Dame publicity
    staff.
    
    Dan

I think I can summarize the sentiment about Notre Dame:

1. Notre Dame is excellent in the PR (publicity, hype, etc.) game.
2. The system of rewards is determined by PR.
3. Everyone cries when ND wins the rewards and fumes that it's only
because they're good at PR.

Is that about how it works?

TTom

    Nope, Dan.  1965 Heisman winner was Mike Garrett from USC.  Huarte and
    Namath were both drafted by the Jets and were rookies on the Jets
    together in 1965.
    
    John

    OK, then.  The travesty was in 1964.  Huarte was a bad joke foisted on
    the public as a test case to see how loyal and shallow the Heisman
    voters were.
    
    Dan

    
    'Twas 1964, and if ever a defensive player should have won the award,
    Dick Butkus was the man that year.
    
    glenn
    

    Right, john
    
    Should have been Huarte (jets) vs either Lamonica (raiders)
                                       or    Hanratty(Steelers)
    
    We all knew dan would throw an anti-ND dig in this topic. I would have
    been disappointed if he didn't.
    
    How about Johnny Lujack (Bears) vs Bob Williams (Rams   Nd early 50's
    
    Or am i way off-base
    
    
    ML
    
    
      

    >'Twas 1964, and if ever a defensive player should have won the award,
    >Dick Butkus was the man that year.
    
    There was a guy named Namath too, Glenn.
    
    Dan

One can only wonder how Theisman managed to lose the Heisman. I guess
it's a tribute to how strongly negative people feel about ol' Joe.

TTom

    
    > There was a guy named Namath too, Glenn.
    
    Yeah, I know.  Namath finished eleventh.  Butkus finished third.  If
    some QB I never heard of from Tulsa finished second, I figured that
    Namath just must not have been asked to pass much in the Alabama
    offense that year (Starr wasn't either, and was unheralded out of
    college, unlike Namath).  Didn't he get suspended from his bowl team
    the year before?  Maybe that had something to do with it, too.
    
    glenn
     

    Namath wasn't worthy of the Heisman (neither was Huarte - Jerry
    Rhome was second).  Remember, Dan, just becuase Namath went on to
    have a nice career, doesn't mean he was a Heismann trophy winner.
    Methinks your are blinded by your pro-Joe Willie, Hate ND Glasses.
    
    Pat Sullivan is another horrible QB who won the Heismann.  
    
    Prediction - If (and its a big IF) ND beats Miami this weekend,
    Dan will think of some way that the great PR of ND got the tainted
    victory.
    
    Namath wasn't even the best QB to come out of Alabama, Starr or
    Stabler was.  Joe was easily the most hyped quarterback in history,
    however...
    
    JD

Just out of curiosity dan,


How old were you in 1964? 


 Metz

    The bigger travesty among ND Heisman winners was Paul Hornung in 1956
    winning it for a team that went 2-8.  I also can think of few ND
    players who less exemplified what ND stands for.
    
    John

    John,
    
    I have no problem with Hornung winning - one of the BIGGEST problems
    with the Heismann is that it does not AWARD the best player in the
    nation - it awards the BEST player from a Big team rated in teh
    top 5 or so in the nation.  It does NOT take into account the overall
    person - just hype and stats - mostly phoney stats, since most of
    the big schools fatten their Heismann hopefuls on the Norhtern Illinois
    and East Carolina's of the world.
    
    Not flaming at you, but the voting and the award is a joke.
    
    JD

    JD,
    
    I never said I agreed with anything about the Heisman award or any
    other award.  I put the entry in to show Dan that there has been a
    bigger travesty than John Huarte.  I do tend to feel the same way you
    do about the Heisman and for that matter, any individual award in any
    sport.  All hype, no standards, a popularity contest.
    
    I don't believe in any individual awards in football anyway because
    it's so hard to separate individual performance from team performance. 
    I also feel that worthy players who are probably more valuable than
    others (ie, offensive linemen) never get any recognition.  I don't
    believe in all-star teams, polls or anything else of that nature in
    football.  To a certain extent, I don't even believe in the value of
    an individual player's stats (though I get paid to chart them) because
    the stats a player gets are too wrapped up in how the team does on the
    field - unlike in baseball where to a certain extent, the stats are
    independent.
    
    I believe in Joe Kapp refusing his Vikings MVP award in 1969, saying
    there was no one most valuable Viking.
    
    

JD, the only minor modification I would make to your description
of the Heisman is that it's awarded to the OFFENSIVE player.

I cannot believe the bias that surrounds that hokey award....

'Saw

    Well, the tragedy of the Heisman is starting.  Now that Rocket returns
    1 kickoff for a TD, he's one of the leading candidates.  They might as
    well just give it to him now.  And the voters can just ignore the fact
    that Eric Bienemy is leading the nation in rushing.
    
    -Joe

    John - yeah, I understood your note - I'm just sick of Heismanns
    and MVPs and polls in general.
    
    JD

    Joe,
    
    If you've been watching the Heismann watches in papers, as I have,
    they've been using a revolving door method - including beloved Cane
    Erikson.   Geez, your blood pressure must have really gone up on
    Saturday, huh?  Pretty violent reactions to anything even slightly
    pre-ND.   
    
    Don't worry, cause I think ND will lose another game and not be
    natinal champion.
    
    JD

    
>    If you've been watching the Heismann watches in papers, as I have,
>    they've been using a revolving door method - including beloved Cane
>    Erikson.   Geez, your blood pressure must have really gone up on
>    Saturday, huh?  Pretty violent reactions to anything even slightly
>    pre-ND.   
    
    I have been watching the Heisman watches, and every time Ismail does
    anything, he re-appears.  After the Purdue game, after the AF game, and
    now.  Yes, my blood pressure went way up and hasn't gone down yet.  My
    family really gets a good laugh watching me when ND plays.  BTW, my
    wife and her family are big ND fans.  Hard to believe, huh?
        
>    Don't worry, cause I think ND will lose another game and not be
>    natinal champion.
    
    I can only hope to hell that you're right, but I'm not taking any
    chances.  If Pitt doesn't upset Shame, I will be hoping for Nebraska to
    beat CU,(you heard it correct) and hopefully NU and UVA can end up meeting
    for the title and not give ND a chance to win it even IF ND wins the
    rest of their games.  
    
    Joe

    
    Tim Brown might have been the biggest ND Heisman travesty of them all.
    What, 800-some yards total offense and a few big kickoff returns for an
    8-4 team?  I'd have gone with Don MacPherson...
    
    The award should not be a "greatest pro potential" thing.
    
    JD, the year that Pat Sullivan won my favorite college player of all
    time, Greg Pruitt, gained almost 1700 yards with a *9.4* yards/carry
    average against tough competition, including USC, Texas, Colorado (#3
    that year), and Nebraska in the Greatest Game Ever Played.  The problem
    was that he was a junior with no advance billing, and that ground
    hadn't been broken yet until the much-hyped Archie Griffin (5th in the
    Heisman as a sophomore) took it as a junior.  Ironically, Oklahoma met
    Auburn in the Sugar Bowl that year and stomped them, with Pruitt
    overshadowing the good-but-not-great Sullivan and his favorite receiver,
    Terry Beasley.  I'm convinced that Pruitt's season, with that unheard
    of average producing nearly a first down every time he touched the ball, 
    was one of the greatest in college history but is largely forgotten 
    because the Heisman did not come with it.
    
    glenn
     

    Joe,
    
    What was amazing to me was Vaughann (the runner from Mich) - he
    games 200 + vs. ND in week 1, 200+ win week 2 - and he wasn't listed
    in the Heismann watch!!!  He was the favorite in my book.  ANd he's
    dropped out - same with Musgrove from Oregon State - one week in,
    one week out - and same with the Rocket.   It's such a joke.
    How do we know that someone from Wesleyan isn't Heismann material?
    
    Glenn,
    
    I know about Priutt, and agree with Tim Brown, but it wasn't a strong
    year.  Brown was like Flutie, a poor year for candidates, and the
    media darling takes it.
    
    JD

    
    Can't agree that Flutie didn't deserve it.  This is another "pro
    potential" assessment creeping in.  He broke the all-time career
    passing record in his 3 1/2 years as a starter!  He took BC to the
    Cotton Bowl and won it, finishing #5, with an otherwise mediocre (by
    big-time college football standards) team around him.  What more would
    you want?
    
    glenn
    

>One can only wonder how Theisman managed to lose the Heisman. I guess
>it's a tribute to how strongly negative people feel about ol' Joe.
    
    I don't remember who won the award that year, but I do remember there
    wasn't much of an outcry that Theisman was the deserverving loser.
    
    I also remember being thoroughly disgusted that the Notre Dame PR staff
    had Joe change the pronunciation of his last name from thees-man to
    thighs-man so it rhymed with Heisman.
    
    Dan

    >Namath wasn't even the best QB to come out of Alabama, Starr or
    >Stabler was.  Joe was easily the most hyped quarterback in history,
    >however...
    
    You might be right JD.  I mean stranger things have happened than that. 
    Bear Bryant who coached all three of them disagreed with you, but you
    just might be right.  Given the chances that you know what you're
    talking about here and that Bryant didn't, my advice to you is to put
    a couple of bucks on the Washington State lottery this week, where you
    have a similar chance of being right.
    
   > Prediction - If (and its a big IF) ND beats Miami this weekend,
   > Dan will think of some way that the great PR of ND got the tainted
   > victory.
    
   JD, are you man enough to apologize for this libelous statement?
    
    Dan

>How old were you in 1964? 
    
    I was 3, Metz.  Does that somehow make Huarte a more deserving Heisman
    candidate?  I'm I forbidden about commenting on historical occurances
    by the Notre Dame goon squad presence in this conference?
    
    Dan

I don't know what Bear Bryant thought, but I've always liked
Starr the best.  He was a great leader, and a superb qb.
If I had to find a fault with Starr, it was that his ego was
not such that he'd hang it all out on the line and go for broke.

Lombardi complained about that sometimes, and he'd have to
prod Starr to go for it all.

Namath was a different type of person...less conservative,
more flamboyant, and certainly a superb qb in his own right.

Both are in the HoF, so it's hard to make the comparison.
I saw more of Starr, as I watched the NFL almost exclusively,
as opposed to Namath in the AFL....

JMHO,
'Saw

    'Saw, my knowledge of Namath's college days are strictly read-only. 
    From what I know, he not only ran the best offense in Bryant's mind,
    but was also the best passer (easily, compared to Starr, Stabler). 
    ALso back in those days Namath was a fine running QB which fit in well
    with the 'bama preference for the run over the pass.  Obviously as
    Namath's knees turned into egg-shells, this ability has been forgotten. 
    The quote that has kept coming back to me from Bryant was that he was
    often upset that Namath checked off his play at the line of scrimmage
    in favor of passing the ball, but the results probably meant that
    Namath knew more about offense than Bear did.
    
    Dan

    Well Dan I'm amazed taht you showed praise for Notre Dame in another
    note - first positive thing I ever remember you saying about them.
    Congrats!
    
    Hmm, now lets get this straight Dan - if you take pro careers, Namath
    was better than Huarte.  And Jerry Rhome.  Still doesn't make either
    of those worse college players.
    
    Starr won 2 super bowls and numerous other titles - Namath one
    overhyped victory that the defense and the running game had more
    to do with than Mr. Hype did.  Stabler led the Raiders to a SB victory
    and was extremely accurate.   Heck, Richard Todd and Jeff Rutledge
    were good college Qb's at Alabama.   AND since you were only 3 -
    you can't really comment on theHeismann race of that year, can ya
    = your opinions are based on hersay and loyalty to Namathj and the
    JEts.    I was 6 so I was old enought to watch some of the games
    ;'-)
    
    KD

    >Hmm, now lets get this straight Dan - if you take pro careers, Namath
    >was better than Huarte.  And Jerry Rhome.  Still doesn't make either
    >of those worse college players.
    
    No, you're right.  But Namath also was a great college player.  If he
    went to Notre Dame (can you imagine a worse clash of personality?), he
    would have been a deserving Heisman winner instead of an 11th place.
    
    >Namath one
    >overhyped victory that the defense and the running game had more
    >to do with than Mr. Hype did.
    
    Leading 16-point underdogs to the SUperbowl victory is not a good
    example of an overhyped victory.  Your claims about the defense and the
    running game have been roundly repudiated by the very defenders and
    runners you make your specious claims for.  In every way Joe led those
    Jets from giving the team confidence to piloting their offense to
    executing on the field.  I was 7 at the time, and saw the game, so you
    have to believe I know what I'm talking about.
    
    By the way, I've heard that Mickey Mantle won the 1956 triple crown,
    but I'm not really sure because I wasn't born yet.
    
    Dan

    >      -< Anyone have the '64 stats for these Heisman candidates? >-
    
    I found 'em in order to answer my own question from Friday:
    
    Huarte	114 for 205, 2062 yards, 16 TD's; ND 9-1 (from 2-7 in '63
                                                            without Huarte)
    Namath	 64 for 100,  756 yards, ?? TD's; 'Bama 10-1 (from 9-2 '63)
    
    As I suspected, Huarte was the most deserving offensive player that
    year, unless you consider Rhome's 2870 yards in the Missouri Valley
    Conference to be better.  I still like Butkus, though.
    
    glenn
    

    Clearly, in 1964, Dan had a lot on his mind, or should I say, in his
    diaper....  :-)
    
    Had to do it, Dan!
    
    Hawk

    >                    -< Huarte needs no apology... >-
    
    From what I read on the subject, Glenn, Huarte was not a highly
    respected QB, but he played on a highly respected team.  He really was
    one of the first Heismans who had a concerted PR effort behind him to
    win him the award.  Not that there haven't been other ill-conceived
    Heisman choices, but that this was a real "first" in jockeying for the
    award.
    
    And from looking at those stats, it's obvious that Bear didn't let Joe
    pass enough!
    
    Dan

    
    Dan,
    
    I found the stats in a Sports Illustrated article from 1988 (Nov. 28 if
    you wish to refer to your reference library) entitled "Those 'Bad' 
    Heisman picks were O.K." in which they debunk a few Heisman myths, most 
    emphatically the Huarte selection.  SI questions Hornung's selection
    over Jim Brown based on Eastern football and racial biases in place at
    the time, and Tim Brown's selection in 1987.  But they support the most
    controversial of the picks, including Huarte, Gary Beban in 1967 (less
    convincing argument there: O.J. Simpson was only a *junior*), and Terry
    Baker in 1962, who actually had a fantastic season.  The Notre Dame PR
    thing has been grossly exaggerated in the Huarte case.
    
    FWIW, using Bear Bryant's opinion on pro-style QB's is like using Barry 
    Switzer's on wide receivers.  It's damn near counter to the argument.  
    That Namath would cross him up at the line of scrimmage and occasionally 
    throw the ball is commendable, though.
    
    glenn
    

   Have there ever been any Defensive winners? If  so... who?

   Besides the Heisman, there's the Outland Trophy; the Butkus (mumble);
   any others?

   What would people think about making the Heisman strictly quarterbacks?
   Have separate trophies for running back, receivers, etc.?

   The game is so specialized anymore, it might make sense (at least one
   each for QB's and RB's).

   Mike JN

   >Have there ever been any Defensive winners? If  so... who?
    
    I know in 1980, when Hugh Green of Pitt was clearly the most dominating
    defensive player that I can remember, he narrowly lost the Heisman.
    
   >What would people think about making the Heisman strictly quarterbacks?
   >Have separate trophies for running back, receivers, etc.?
    
    A much better idea than having just one award.  It helps solve one
    problem, that of positions being overlooked.  THe problems of your
    media magnets and great PR efforts  would still remain, no?
    
    Dan

    
    > I know in 1980, when Hugh Green of Pitt was clearly the most dominating
    > defensive player that I can remember, he narrowly lost the Heisman.
    
    I believe that Green came the closest, finishing second.  Unfortunately 
    it was based mostly on reputation from the previous season, I'm afraid.  
    I lived in Pittsburgh that year and saw quite a few Panther games, and 
    unless you feel that tying up two of the opponents' blockers assigned 
    to you is qualification enough, I'm not sure he deserved it.  Green 
    didn't get in on many plays.  You'd have to be a real defensive
    technician to understand Green's worth, I guess, and I don't think
    that's why most of the voters went with him.
    
    glenn
                                               

>>How old were you in 1964? 
    
>    I was 3, Metz.  Does that somehow make Huarte a more deserving Heisman
>    candidate?  I'm I forbidden about commenting on historical occurances
>    by the Notre Dame goon squad presence in this conference?
>    
>    Dan


No, just satisfying my own curiosity. You note so authoritatively about some of 
these things I though you might have first hand impressions of these events
instead of just having read about them.

With that Jerry Garcia,Jeff Reardon mask on your face I had no idea how old you
were :-) :-)

Metz

Who could care less about Heisman voting because he ranks it right up there 
with the Emmy, Grammy, Tony, MTV, MVP, Pro-Bowl, All-Star and Country/Western
self promoting total hype awards...


BTW- Nice too see you admit that ND actually won the game....

    
    If Huarte had played for any other school than ND, he would've 
    deserved the Heisman, or is it Heesman?
    
    
    
    
    Steve

    If I'm not mistaken, there was a defensive player from Nebraska(?)
    named Rich Glover(?) who played nose guard(?) and won the Heisman back
    in the '70s(?).
    
    (?)Hawk(?)

    Hawk, you're right, if you're not mistaken.
    
    
    HTH
    
    Lee

    
    Glover finished third in 1972, when Johnny Rodgers (also from Nebraska)
    won it.
    
    glenn

    Rich Glover never won the Heisman.
    
    1970	Jim Plunkett		Stanford
    1971	Pat Sullivan		Auburn
    1972	Johnny Rodgers		Nebraska
    1973	John Cappeletti		Penn State
    1974	Archie Griffin		Ohio State
    1975	Archie Griffin		Ohio State
    1976	Tony Dorsett		Pittsburgh
    1977	Earl Campbell		Texas
    1978	Billy Simms		Oklahoma
    1979	Charles White		Southern Cal
    1980	George Rogers		South Carolina
    1981	Marcus Allen		Southern Cal
    1982	Herschel Walker		Georgia
    1983	Mike Rozier		Nebraska
    1984	Doug Flutie		Boston College
    1985	Bo Jackson		Auburn
    1986	Vinny Testaverde	Miami
    1987	Tim Brown		Notre Dame
    1988	Barry Sanders		Oklahoma State
    1989	Andre Ware		Houston
    1990	???
    
    Bob Hunt

    And that(?) is exackly(?) why(?) I put(?) so many(?) freakin'(?)
    question marks(?) in parentheses(?) in that(?) reply(?).  Dig(?)?
    
    Hawk

    Thanks for the list Bob.  It really cemented the Notre Dame Media
    blitz arguement - especially upon looking at all the ND winners
    in the last 20 years.    They've surely blitzed the media.  Yep,
    they sure have.  I guess Dan was right.  Hoo boy, all of them ND
    winners!!!!!!!!!!!  Boy, throw in Huarte in 64 and Hornung in 58,
    and it's like, a dynasty...
    
    JD

    >                      -< Joe Montana was jobbed! >-
    
    Apart from an ability to bring his team from behind (accept against
    USC) late in games, Montana was not overly impressive at Notre Dame. 
    But he impressed Bill Walsh enough by showing him that "little bit of
    Joe Namath"  (Walsh's words) so Walsh knew enough to grab him in the
    3rd round.
    
    And I still think Green would have made a much better Heisman winner
    than George Rogers.  If you wanna give the Heisman to a USC tailback,
    make it from the **REAL** USC!
    
    By the way, it's not just that the sporting world is and should be
    aghast at players like Huarte and Brown and Hornung and the other
    creeps actually winning the winning the Heisman.  It's the PR and media
    blitz and Irish arm-twisting that produces sad-sack candidates like
    Tony Rice.  Imagine, the guy was perhaps the 50th best QB in the
    country last year, perfected the bounce pass to open receivers, but by
    the time the ND PR dept. was done with him he was a leading candidate!
    
    This year, it's Ishmeal, an awesome talent, but he only displays it
    sporadically.  He gets 5 times the press and public adulation for each
    accomplishment as a player at another school.  Reminds me of Tim
    Brown's senior year.
    
    Dan

    Dan, Ishmael'd look pretty darn good in a Jets uniform returning punts
    and kickoffs, wouldn't he?
    
    Hawk

   Haveta agree JD.

   Such Notre Dame dominance over the last 20 years smacks not only of
   PR and media hype... but the possibility of PAYOFFS rears it's
   butt-ugly haid!

   P`raps Notre Dame (Our Lady of Perpetual Payments?) is not as squeaky
   clean as Drano and certain other biased religious zealots have always
   led us to believe!

   This just shocks the shit out of me! (Please forgive the vulgar 
   langwidge, but ahm truly upset. Think I'll go lie down for awhile, and
   try to get ma strength up.... BABS!! C`mere, Darlin')

   Mike JN

    Dan,
    
    Have any PR stats available to back up the 5 times more than *any*
    other school?   So Danny - do you not think BC spent a HELL of a
    lot of money and pr arm-twisting for Sir Douglas of the Heights?
    
    
    Most Heismann campaigns are launched a year (at least) in advance
    any more.  I remember reading that Ben Bennett (Duke?) was the
    recipient of one of the largest Heismann campaigns in history.
    
    So Danny, do you think USC did arm-twisting, media blitzing, and
    PR mooching for their tailback?  Well Danny boy - they certainly
    did.   If Notre Dame was so damn effective, they'd have one more
    than one Heismann in the last 20+ years - right Danny boy.  Your
    paranoic hatred of ND is rather funny though.  
    
    And, Dan, if you notice, year in, year out, large schools 'stars*
    tend to be the favorites in the race.  Take this year - the favorites
    prior to the season went to schools like ND, Miami, Colorado, etc...
    
    Tony Rice was a candidate - big shit - Joe Biden was a candidate
    for President of the USA in 1988.  It only matters who won, and
    that was Andre "Exploded Stats vs. SMU" Ware.  (Rice didnt' deserve
    the award, on that I concur.)  However, RIce wasn't the first option
    QB who couldn't throw to be a candidate for the Heisman - Oklahoma
    has had a few.
    
    JD

    >It only matters who won
    
    You only say that because it supports your feeble argument.  As we've
    seen it really *doesn't* matter who wins.  Some years, like 1964,
    everyone acknowledged the sly joke ND played on the public, but ignored
    their product.
    
    But that they try so hard and come so close is positively scary to
    anyone interested in fair play and a level playing field for all.  Sure
    other schools have followed in ND's footsteps, much like negative
    campaigning is all the rage in political races these days.  If one side
    starts it, the other side better get going at it to, or else they'll
    place themselves at a bigger competitive disadvantage than ND has
    already placed them.
    
    And after weathering the JD diatribe yet again, what do I see at the
    bottom of his note?  >Rice didnt' deserve the award, on that I concur.<
    He agreed with me!
    
    Why don't you cool your jets and call off the hit squad if your going
    to agree with the Truth?
    
    Dan

 Dan, all I've got to say on the Ismail thing is that if his numb-skull
 coach would deviate from his system of rewards and play the Rocket at
 tailback now instead of next year we wouldn't even be considering wether
 or not he is a worthy canidate. If I had Rocket on my team I'd dam well
 make sure he got the ball 20 to 25 times a game. Something that won't
 happen with him as a flanker. Granted he's a bit small but these aren't
 the pros not everybody is 6'+ 250 lb+....It's crimminally insane use by
 Holtz sort of like DeanHo use of "AIR"...

 mike

    Dan,
    
    As far as I know, not everyone has acknowledged 1964 as being a
    bad pic - and Glenn's using the SI article backs it up.  Huarte
    had damn good stats that year.  A football fan can see, a blind
    Namath Jihad member can't.  But Joe did do a good job of handing
    the ball off, since he only tried 100 passes in a 10 game season
    - that's 10 a game danny.  Boy, Joe was a good hander offer though.
    ANd that's a TOUGH job.  IMO, you have less a problem with Huarte
    winning then in JOe rightfully finishing 11th.
    
    And I thought Army started the practice of campaigning for Heismann
    winners.
    
    Face it Dan, you cry and whine about this supposed ND domination
    of the media, and yet when confronted with facts like Huarte's stats
    vs. Mr. Overrated, and the FACT that ND has had one (as in more
    than zero but less than two) winners in the last quarter-century
    - all you can lamely argue about is "Yeah, well, they can get guys
    close..."
    
    Dan, what next, you going to try to sell folks that Kenny O'Brien
    is better than Joe Montana?
    
    JD

    Oh, I forgot - Dan, I'm still waiting for the facts that ND spends
    5 times MORE than ANY other School in the NCAA to hype Heismann
    hopefuls.
    
    Or did you simply make it up to fit your arguement?
    
    JD

    >Face it Dan, you cry and whine about this supposed ND domination
    >of the media
    
    And worse for you, I point it out with facts.  Which is why you
    continue to write these long pointless diatribes about me instead of
    about Sports.  As the true propoganda tool you are, all you can do is
    attack the messenger.
    
    Dan

    >Oh, I forgot - Dan, I'm still waiting for the facts that ND spends
    >5 times MORE than ANY other School in the NCAA to hype Heismann
    >hopefuls.
    
    Is this some new type of Lou Holtz Blind Loyalty test your taking?  You
    make something up, and then try to make me prove it?  I think I'll
    pass...
    
    Or are you just still sort of numb from that "miracle" that your idol
    Lou Holtz delivered to you this past Saturday?  Gosh, as a fan you
    must be "blessed" too.  How wonderful for you.
    
    Dan

    
    I was kidding about Joe Montana, if anyone wasn't sure.
    
    I honestly don't think ND engages in much Heisman pumping anymore.  I 
    don't think they need to.  It comes automatically, free of charge, from 
    the national media.  ND just sits back and reaps the rewards of a
    system they helped build long ago.
    
    No Oklahoma option quarterback has come within sniffing distance of a
    Heisman, not even ones like Jack Mildren and Jamielle Holieway who far 
    outperformed Rice (I know that both rushed for 1000 yards in a season, 
    I think Mildren passed for it or very close to it in the same year, too).
    That *was* an unmistakable benefit to playing for Notre Dame, especially 
    a good Notre Dame.  But in the national championship season, Rice didn't
    even finish in the top five.
    
    The claim Dan made about Huarte not being highly regarded and a product 
    of the ND system is completely unsupported in the article I referenced.  
    Rather, he and Ara Parseghian are credited with turning the program 
    around from some bad times (no top 20 teams since 1959, to #3 in 1964).
    Huarte played very little in '62-'63, and had no advance billing, all 
    the more reason that his season was significant. Slamming Notre Dame 
    for offenses over the years is one thing, but Huarte is obviously not 
    being given the acclaim he deserved that year simply based on his 
    subsequent professional career.  The close runner-up, Jerry Rhome, was 
    quoted as saying, "I'm not asking for a recount". 
    
    glenn
    

    Dan,
    
    I did misunderstand, but, anyway, can you back up your claim that
    the Rocket receive 5 times the press and adulation as any other
    player at any other school?  Or is it your anti-ND propoganda??
    
    
    >    This year, it's Ishmeal, an awesome talent, but he only displays it
    >sporadically.  He gets 5 times the press and public adulation for each
    >accomplishment as a player at another school.  Reminds me of Tim
    >Brown's senior year.
    >
    >Dan
     
    Dan, I don't believe in sporting miracles, nor do I believe in God
    blessing certain schools.  So you are WRONG again.  I'm not a Lou
    Holtz fan, so you are WRONG again.   Funny Dan, how your tirades
    on the media manipulation - based  on your anti-ND feeings - is
    passed off on fact, and my opinions are propoganda.   Are you feeling
    attacked, Danny?  Boo Hoo.  Dan, take a good look at the list of
    Winners since 1970 - many were unworthy.  Only one is attacked.
     Why, because he went to Notre Dame.  
    
    You do like to pass off your opinions as facts though Dan.  That's
    for sure.  First your wonderful knowledge of the voting in the 64
    Heismann race - when you were 3 - culled from articles and heresay,
    and biased by your hatred of Notre Dame.   Then your lame claim
    about ND's media manipulation on current Heismann voting - when
    they've only fielded one winner in the last 25 years - and one no
    less or more deserving then at least half of those voted in the
    last 25 years. 
    
    Denny R. said it best - you have a vendetta against yourself.
    
    Tata
    
    JD

    >can you back up your claim that
    >the Rocket receive 5 times the press and adulation as any other
    >player at any other school? 
    
    That's not what I said either, but you're getting closer.  Scary, isn't
    it, trying to understand the other side instead of responding with the
    blindly loyal crap you've been regurgitating?
    
    >Then your lame claim
    >about ND's media manipulation on current Heismann voting - when
    >they've only fielded one winner in the last 25 years - and one no
    >less or more deserving then at least half of those voted in the
    >last 25 years.                             
    
    You're being ridiculous.  To examine the media/fan bias that 
    tends demonstrably toward Notre Dame, analyzing only the winners of the
    Heisman trophy, as you have now repeatedly suggested, is an absurd way
    to do it and bound for failure.  But, again, you've got a silly and
    mistaken point to make and you want to repeat it to death.
    
    But what is this stupid point?  That Tim Brown is the only ND Heisman
    winner in the last 20 years!  And to top it off, you ridicule me with
    this extremely poor "analysis" and then you come in and agree with me
    that Brown was an undeserving winner!?!
    
    ANd when I make the point that to examine this issue we have to look a
    little deeper than the surface,  you know - analyze using your brain
    instead of your blind loyalty, and point to extremely current history
    and the sordidness of the Tony Rice support. And when that's done, you
    agree with me again!?!  Geez, at least be consistent and disagree.  You
    should be saying stuff like "Tony Rice got jobbed!"  and "Tim Brown was
    deserving!" because that would agree with the rest of your story.  But
    you hypocritically straddle this fence.
    
    FWIW, I agree with Glenn's point.  Notre Dame no longer must do its
    strong-arm thing with the AP/Heisman voters.  They can just sit back
    and relax because their biases have been sufficiently programmed into
    the brains of those very voters.  They get the exorbitant publicity
    free of charge.
    
    To deny the tremendous advantage Notre Dame enjoys by having mythical
    national title and the Heisman award based on polls is an utter denial
    of the facts.  And it is what I have come to expect from you, JD. 
    Unfortunate considering in the past you've taken the other side of the
    exact same issue when it occurs with Doug Flutie, the Celtics, etc. 
    
    Dan

    Dan,
    
    You said the Rocket gets 5 times the press and adulation then any
    other player.   But, to clear things up - how bout looking back
    at the extraction and then explaining what you meant.  Especially
    the '5 times' stuff.
    
    Blind loyalty?  That's a laugh.  For blind loyalty, take a look
    at the mirror Dan, especially in the context of Don Mattingly, Joe
    Namath, etc....  
    
    SInce you know so much about me, Dan - answer these questions:
    Do I watch every ND game?   Do I live and die by ND football?  DO
    I like and worship ND football?  Do I like Lou Holtz?   Did I feel
    like Tony Rice was a Heisman Trophy winner?  Do I think you are
    objective?
    
    If you answered yes to any of the above - you are WRONG!!!!!!
    
    now for part two:
    
    While not the bested choice, Tim Brown was as deserving as manyu
    of the other past winners.   If he didn't win, it wouldn't have
    been a big deal - that he did win isn't that big a deal either.
    He was overhyped - name a Heismann winner who wasn't!!!!!!!!!
    
    And Dan, so I agree with you that Tony Rice wasn't a Heisman winner
    - big deal - it doesn't mean that I agree with your views - just
    means that I can understand talent.  If I was so blindly loyal (so
    at the level that you are so vehemently anti-ND), I'd be saying
    Tony Rice was the greatest since sliced bread.  And hence Dan, and
    I thank you for pointing this out in your .208, lies the difference
    between us - I'm objective - your self-righteous.  I see right and
    wrong at ND - you see only wrong.  
    
    And to paraphrase your first paragraph in .208 "That's not what
    I'm saying, but you are getting closer.  Scary, isn't it, trying
    to understand the other side instead of responding with the blindly
    hateful crap you've been regurgitating.
    
    Toodaloo..
    
    JD

    
    > Unfortunate considering in the past you've taken the other side of the
    > exact same issue when it occurs with Doug Flutie, the Celtics, etc. 
    
    Let's not forget the Yankees...
    
    glenn

    re .209
    
    Name a Heisman winner who wasn't overhyped ....
    
    Try Andre Ware.
    
    Trivia question : Who was the first Heisman winner, and what was so
    signifcant about him (besides his name) ?

   Is a tie-raid anything like a panty raid?

   Meanwhile.... what do people think about restricting the Heisman Trophy
   to:

   A) Seniors
   B) Seniors with at least two (three?) years of playing time.
   C) Seniors with at least two (three?) years of playing time who go to a
      Big Ten School (This is the Big 10 note, right?)
   D) Notre Dame only
   E) Miami only, but the players must urinate in a small teapot.. then do
      the Little Teapot Dance.
   F) Players from `disadvantaged' backgrounds, but who still like their
      Mothers.

   Mike JN

    
    > Jay Berwanger, quarterback, University of Chicago, 1939
    
    > Did not pursue a career in the NFL.
    
    Obviously couldn't have been squat, then... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    >But, to clear things up - how bout looking back
    >at the extraction and then explaining what you meant.  Especially
    >the '5 times' stuff.
    
    What I said that you missed was he receives all that hype "per
    accomplishment".  I agree with Mike that Holtz sits on Rocket, but for
    as little as Rocket is asked to do he receives as much, if not more,
    hype than anyone.  It's not that he's not good, but if a player at
    Whatsamatta U did what Rocket does, or Tony Rice or Tim Brown did,
    they'd be snubbed in favor of the best Notre Dame lineman.
    
    >For blind loyalty, take a look
    >at the mirror Dan, especially in the context of Don Mattingly, Joe
    >Namath, etc.... 
    
    I thought we were talking Notre Dame, not your misconceptions of my
    perceptions of a couple of other athletes who have nothing to do with
    Notre Dame.
    
    >SInce you know so much about me, Dan - answer these questions:
    
    Remember JD, it's you who writes the long tiring diatribes about me,
    and not the other way 'round.  I've made no such claims, beyond what
    I've read in here and talked to you about in person.
    
    >Do I watch every ND game?   Do I live and die by ND football?  DO
    >I like and worship ND football?  Do I like Lou Holtz?   Did I feel
    >like Tony Rice was a Heisman Trophy winner?  Do I think you are
    >objective?
    
    I dunno.  I dunno.  Yes.  Only noticed you didn't after being forced
    into it. As I remember, you felt he was a valid candidate.  No.
    
    BFD.
    
    >If you answered yes to any of the above - you are WRONG!!!!!!
    
    You're Caso-like use of exclamation marks is very impressive.
    
    Responses to Part 2 of JD's latest diatribe...
    
    >Tim Brown was as deserving as many of the other past winners
    
    In my opinion, Brown sticks out as positively the least deserving
    choice in the past 20 years.  He had hype and he had talent, but he had
    precious little performance.
    
    >He was overhyped - name a Heismann winner who wasn't!!!!!!!!!
    
    Performance is the key; not hype.  In some cases, hype sticks, but
    almost always to performance.  Unless it's Notre Dame hype, in which
    case performance isn't necessary.
    
    >And hence Dan, and
    >I thank you for pointing this out in your .208, lies the difference
    >between us - I'm objective - your self-righteous.  I see right and
    >wrong at ND - you see only wrong.               
    
    Yeah, when backed into a corner, you see wrong.  But what I pointed out
    in .208 was blatant hypocrisy, not objectivity.  In the face of denying
    how ND pulls the strings at Heisman time, and in the face of denying
    that anything but winning matters in analyzing this, you admit that
    Rice was a joke.  That's hardly what I'd point out if I was attempting
    to convince people of my objectivity.
    
    Dan

       I heard someone say the other day that Ware's successor at Houston
    has better numbers than Andre did. So he's the obvious Heisman choice
    now, right?
                                       Denny

    
    Hey JD! I said Danny boy has a vendetta against himself, not
    Denny! Give me some credit will ya!! 8^))))))))))
    
    GO IRISH!! THEY'RE ON A MISSION FROM GOD!
    
    
    
    Steve

 Wanna talk ND hype? The Davey OBrien award to best QB in the land now
 has Rick Meir sitting in the 7th posistion according to TSN and this
 was before the Miami game. One of the names he was ahead of was Stan
 White of Auburn.

 I'm not saying the kid has played bad but I certainly don't think he
 one of the best in the country yet. He certainly is surround by a bus
 load of talent......

 mike

    While I've only seen bits and pieces of ND games this year, what I've
    seen on the highlight films from Rick Mirer(sp?) is pretty darn
    impressive, especially all those miracle drives that pulled-out several
    of their games.  And, had that ND player made the easy catch for a td
    on the last play of the Stanford game, well, we know who'd be #1
    without question........  :-)
    
    Hawk

    
    I haven't been wowed by Stan White, either.  He's very young and has
    made a lot of mistakes.  Seventh for Mirer doesn't sound outrageous to
    me.
    
    glenn
    

    >the highlight films from Rick Mirer(sp?) is pretty darn
    >impressive, especially all those miracle drives that pulled-out several
    >of their games.
    
    Oh no, Hawk!  Not you too!!  Let's not forget the miracle Mirer pulled
    off against Michigan State where he bounced one off the hands of the
    defender and it landed in the arms of the prone ND receiver.
    
    They beat Miami with the rushing game, which I never would have
    expected, and on defense.  Mirer's good, and sure to be pushed as a
    Heisman candidate in the future.  We'll see if it's deserved, but as a
    QB at HD, it's automatic.
     
    Dan

    Sorry Danny, in moments of weakness, the Notre Dame hype is tough to
    stave off, much like an open Genny.....  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    Hawk,
    
    DOn't cha know you can't use 'miracle' to describe anything, or
    you are labelled a Lou Holtz fan and a propoganda machine by Danny
    ;-)
    
    Didn't cha know that Franco Harris' 'Immaculate Reception' was coined
    by someone who was once IN Notre Dame, Indiana!!!   That "Miracle
    on 34th Street" was a result of a hype job by ND alums!  That Al
    Micheal's "Do you believe in Miracles!" job in the 80 Olympics was
    because of brainwashing by Notre Dame!!!!!!!   That the Loving Spoonful
    wrote "Do YOu Believe in Magic" for Ara Pareghian!!!!!!!!  That
    Miracle Whip is a clever pro-Notre Dame subliminal marketing ploy
    by Notre Dame!!!!!!   The list is endless, oh Hawkster!!!!!
    
    Oh yeah, andd saying "God Bless You" after someone sneezes is really
    saying "Knute Rockne Loves YOU"
    
    HTH
    
    JD

   I like Miracle Whip much better than mayonnaise.

   HTH
   Mike JN

Article 7429 of rec.sport.football
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From: peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: Big Ten Preview (11-10-90)  NCAA
Summary: Three big games this week...
Keywords: Big Ten, college
Message-ID: <1990Nov7.175507.10148@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 7 Nov 90 17:55:07 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 108


I'm way behind, as you all know.  Just too much to do.  But, here we
go again.  I'll start with the standings, and a comment about the
Iowa-Illinois game, which I was lucky enough to see in person.  Iowa
came out of the lockerroom with the most confident attitude I've seen
displayed by a visitor in a hostile situation, and it was hostile.
I've never personally heard Memorial Stadium louder than it was for the
first hour or so last Saturday.  The slow trot out, with all players
holding hands to me almost reeked of, "F*** You, Illinois".  It worked,
it seems.  And, Nick Bell is the biggest running back I've ever seen!
I've been harping to some of you about Illinois' defense being a tad
overrated this year against the run.  This game and the Michigan State
one revealed many weaknesses there.  I'm at a loss of words to explain
why they can't stop the power run this year.  It will be interesting to see
how they deal with Michigan's ground game this Saturday...


STANDINGS

	Iowa		5-0-0	7-1-0
	Illinois	4-1-0	6-2-0
	Minnesota	4-1-0	5-3-0
	Ohio State	3-1-1	5-2-1
	Michigan	3-2-0	5-3-0
	MSU		3-2-0	4-3-1
	Indiana		1-3-1	4-3-1
	N'western	1-4-0	2-6-0
	Purdue		0-5-0	1-7-0
	Wisconsin	0-5-0	1-7-0


Some other comments.  Iowa surely is in the drivers' seat for the
Rose Bowl.  However, those much-maligned Ohio State Buckeyes still
have a hell of a chance because of the tie factor.  Obviously, OSU
must win at Iowa Saturday.  Iowa could still lose at Minnesota at
the end of the year as well.  Illinois obviously isn't eliminated,
but a loss at Michigan will do that.  The Buckeyes host the
Wolverines.  Still a bunch of great football left...



THIS WEEK IN THE BIG TEN (11-10):


Illinois (6-2) at MICHIGAN (5-3)  [11:00 am CST]:  This game's status
	has diminished greatly in recent weeks, due to Michigan's slide
	and Illinois' huge loss at home to Iowa.  ABC thought so, too.
	Illinois can't stop the run anymore, and Moe Gardner and
	several others on defense are very banged up.  Curt Lovelace,
	Illinois' all-Big Ten offensive lineman, is now out for the
	year.  Michigan has gotten back on track lately by fattening
	up in the state of Indiana.  The Wolverines will probably be
	out to prove something, especially since they've lost two
	straight home games.  Illinois last won in Ann Arbor in the
	mid-1960s...  MICHIGAN 23, Illinois 15.

Ohio State (5-2-1) at IOWA (7-1)  [ABC, 2:38 pm CST]:  To me this is a
	tough call.  Iowa should move the ball at will against OSU,
	but OSU has a better offense than Illinois, so I think they
	will do more, especially early, than Illinois did against
	them.  Iowa got all the bounces last week.  If they don't this
	time, it will be interesting.  But, an Iowa win leaves them
	atop the standings, with Purdue and Minnesota left.  Hayden
	Fry is one of the best coaches anywhere, and the motivation
	factor will be high.  This will be a great one...   IOWA 27,
	Ohio State 23.

Wisconsin (1-7) at INDIANA (4-3-1)  [Noon CST]:  IU is ready for a win
	in the worst way, so this will be it.  It seems the easy early
	schedule was very misleading in their case.  Wisconsin has
	regressed in recent weeks, but I like their future.  The
	Hoosiers will keep their fading bowl hopes alive...  INDIANA 42,
	Wisconsin 15.

Michigan State (4-3-1) at MINNESOTA (5-3) [1:30 pm CST]:  This is a most
	intriguing matchup to me, since many percieve MSU to be much
	better than their record, while Minnesota is percieved as a
	pretender despite their record due to that terrible loss at
	Nebraska.  However, the Gopher defense has been pretty good,
	as a shutout of a potent Indiana team would indicate.  Too
	bad ESPN is showing the Ivy League at 11:30 am Saturday instead
	of this.  This could be a high-scoring game, as MSU has had
	trouble stopping Indiana and Purdue in recent weeks.  But, I
	see the Spartans prevailing...  Michigan State 34, MINNESOTA 26.

Purdue (1-7) at NORTHWESTERN (2-6)  [1:05 pm CST]:  The ho-hum game of
	the Big Ten season since Purdue and Wisconsin don't meet this
	year.  The only good thing for Purdue the first half of the
	season was their defense.  However, that quit after the Illinois
	game.  The offense has been bad all year.  NU can't really stop
	people, but they can score.  Thus, this one belongs to the Cats...
	NORTHWESTERN 31, Purdue 13.


NEXT WEEK:

		Illinois at Indiana
		Purdue at Iowa
		Minnesota at Michigan
		MSU at Northwestern
		Ohio State at Wisconsin

		(who will they show on the tube????)
-- 
_________________
| Randy Peppler |_____________ 
| Illinois State Water Survey|  Quaffing Bud in St. Louis:  "to drink deeply
| peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu   |  	in a hearty or thirsty way..."


    

    OK guys, can you post the results from Saturday's games for this
    Big Ten fan in the UK?  I found out from the usenet that Ohio State
    beat Iowa.  How about the rest of the games?
    
    Joe

    Ohio State 27	Iowa 26
    Michigan 22		Illinois 17
    Michigan State 28	Minnesota 16
    Indiana 20		Wisconsin 7
    Purdue 33		Northwestern 13

Article 8245 of rec.sport.football
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From: peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: Big Ten REVIEW (11-10-90)  NCAA
Summary: Another wild day...
Keywords: Big Ten, college
Message-ID: <1990Nov13.215820.3681@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: 13 Nov 90 21:58:20 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 141


What a wacky season it has been, and will probably continue to be.
Iowa is still in control, but they sure laid some eggs on Saturday
during clutch situations.  Michigan and Michigan State remained
in the race, too, but many things must happen for them to go to
Pasadena (same with Illinois).  As I mentioned in the preview,
Ohio State still had a great shot before Saturday and has an even
better one now...


STANDINGS

	Iowa		5-1-0	7-2-0
	Ohio State	4-1-1	6-2-1
	Michigan	4-2-0	6-3-0
	Illinois	4-2-0	6-3-0
	MSU		4-2-0	5-3-1
	Minnesota	4-2-0	5-4-0
	Indiana		2-3-1	5-3-1
	Purdue		1-5-0	2-7-0
	N'western	1-5-0	2-7-0
	Wisconsin	0-6-0	1-8-0

What's left for the contenders:

Iowa:		Purdue, at Minnesota
Ohio State:	at Wisconsin, Michigan
Michigan:	Minnesota, at Ohio State
Illinois:	at Indiana, Northwestern
MSU:		at Northwestern, Wisconsin
Minnesota:	at Michigan, Iowa

From this, I think it's safe to say that Michigan State has the easiest
road the rest of the way, and will end up 6-2, 7-3-1.  Minnesota has the
toughest road and may end up with a losing record, 5-6.  Iowa will beat
Purdue, then have it all on the line at Minnesota.  Last year the
Gophers clobbered a reeling Iowa team 43-7 at Iowa City...

My predictions (* = bowl team):

	Iowa		7-1-0	9-2-0	*
	Ohio State 	6-1-1	8-2-1	*
	Illinois	6-2-0	8-3-0	*
	Michigan St.	6-2-0	7-3-1	*
	Michigan	5-3-0	7-4-0	*
	Minnesota	4-4-0	5-6-0
	Indiana		3-4-1	6-4-1	*
	Purdue		1-7-0	2-9-0
	N'western	1-7-0	2-9-0
	Wisconsin	0-8-0	1-10-0

John Gutekunst and Fred Akers may be seeking employment in a few
weeks.  The rest are safe, though I wouldn't be surprised if Francis
Peay threw in the towel and resigned at Northwestern.  Shame on
those John Cooper detractors...


LAST WEEK IN THE BIG TEN (11-10):


MICHIGAN (6-3) 22, Illinois (6-3) 17  [Pred: MICHIGAN 23, Illinois 15]:
	Mr. Conservative, Gary Moeller, elected for field goals on fourth
	down and goal at the one, one, and two in this game, and it almost
	came back to kill him despite Michigan dominating this game.  Illinois
	did nothing until the fourth quarter, when Big Mo shifted it's way
	and Michigan appeared to be on it's heels.  The Wolverines led 19-3
	early in the fourth before a couple of long passes made it 22-17.
	Illinois was again driving until Jason Verdusco and Shawn Wax crossed
	each other up on a flea-flicker, and Michigan intercepted at the one
	yard line.  The Wolverines then pulled one out of the Arizona playbook
	and ground out the remaining 6+ minutes of the game on the ground.
	Illinois was outrushed 303-35 in this one.  I imagine the Michigan
	fans were squirming in the fourth quarter, watching their team go
	into a shell AGAIN, despite Illinois being banged up.  105,343
	at Michigan Stadium...

Ohio State (6-2-1) 27, IOWA (7-2) 26  [Pred: IOWA 27, Ohio State 23]:  I said
	it would be a great one, and it was, but it was very strange.  Iowa
	did everything but WIN this game.  Here's some examples:  (1-4) Iowa
	defenders dropped 4 interceptions, one of them turning into the
	OSU "Hail Mary" which ended the first half with a touchdown.  (5)
	Nick Bell flat-out dropped a touchdown strike in the end zone from
	Matt Rodgers on a third down and long play.  Iowa settled for a
	FG.  (6)  Iowa had a punt blocked deep in it's own territory, then
	shanked another, this one leading to OSU's final, game-winning
	drive.  The Iowa defense did a great job Saturday, stiffling the
	potent OSU running game and forcing Greg Frey into a terrible day.
	But, Frey hit a couple of big ones in the fourth quarter, as we
	all know.  Iowa led 26-14 at the end of three.  I listened to the
	Iowa network.  You talk about disappointment.  I frankly thought
	they were lying at the end when OSU won it.  It really had been
	lopsided.  70,033 disappointed fans at Kinnick Stadium...

INDIANA (5-3-1) 20, Wisconsin (1-8) 7  [Pred: INDIANA 42, Wisconsin 15]:
	This was a lackluster game, though Vaughn Dunbar ran for 161 yards
	and Chris Dyer, the redshirt freshman from Lawrenceburg, IN, threw
	for 168 yards.  Despite all of the yardage and the defense holding
	the Badgers to minimal gains, this one was not put out of reach
	until Dunbar scored on a one-yard run in the final quarter.  45,093
	on hand in Bloomington...

Michigan State (5-3-1) 28, MINNESOTA (5-4) 16  [Pred: Michigan State 34,
	MINNESOTA 26]:  This one wasn't as close as the score, as MSU
	ran on Minnesota at will.  Hyland Hickson ran for 97 yards and
	Tico Duckett for 76 as the Spartans amassed 242 yards on the
	ground.  The Spartans led 21-10 at the break and 28-10 at the
	end of three.  Despite the domination, Gopher QB Marquel
	Fleetwood said, "They didn't beat us.  We beat ourselves."  The
	AP wire copy I saw then followed with, "Fleetwood must have been
	watching a different game, ..."  Just 38,731 at the Dome to see
	this game between contenders...

Purdue (2-7) 33, NORTHWESTERN (2-7) 13  [Pred: NORTHWESTERN 31, Purdue 13]:
	In the blown call of the year, Purdue routed the hapless Wildcats.
	Early on Purdue tried to help NU by fumbling twice in it's own
	territory.  But, the Cats could only muster 3 points out of them.
	Eric Hunter then went to work and helped hit the Cats for 21
	second quarter points, two on TD runs of 3 and 13 yards and a
	third on a 6 yard TD pass to Robert Oglesby.  Steve Wambold
	added two second half FGs, and the Boilermakers blocked a punt
	and ran it in for a touchdown in the fourth quarter.  Bob
	Christian ran for 83 yards, the only bright spot for NU.  Purdue
	ran for 176 yards, a modern miracle.  Purdue led 33-6 before
	NU scored it's only TD at the end.  This was the type of performance
	people had been expecting of Purdue this year.  A little bit late,
	I guess.  Only 25,026 at Dyche Stadium...


THIS WEEK:

		Illinois at Indiana		noon CST
		Purdue at Iowa			2:30 pm CST, ABC
		Minnesota at Michigan		noon CST
		MSU at Northwestern		1:05 pm CST
		Ohio State at Wisconsin		1:05 pm CST

-- 
_________________
| Randy Peppler |_____________ 
| Illinois State Water Survey|  Quaffing Bud in St. Louis:  "to drink deeply
| peppler@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu   |  	in a hearty or thirsty way..."


    

    Question now is, who's the best team in the Big10 *right now*?!
    
    I'd say that it's either Iowa or State.  My vote is for the Hawks
    cuz they won at East Lansing.  But somehow I have this nagging
    feeling that, in terms of who'd have the best shot at Washington
    in the Rose, State - one of the largest and strongest teams in the
    nation - would be better.
    
    Great year in the Big10, though.  I don't believe that the conference
    has EVER had this much depth and, ugh, parity in football.  True 
    Michigan got screwed against State, but the point remains that State
    had it that close at the game's end in Ann Arbor.  C'est tres impressif,
    non?
    
    Big10 Tom

Mai oui, T. I think Iowa played its best game of the season in beating
Michigan State and the loss, nea collapse, against Ohio State makes me
wonder if they'd win a rematch.

What's happened to Illinois? At one time, I thought they were the power
of the league. Is their quarterback still gimpy? If they play like they
did against Colorado, they could get the nod over even a strong
Washington.

TTom

    I'll go with Iowa.  They did *not* collapse versus Ohio State, unless
    you make that judgement of the game based solely on the last drive by the
    Buckeyes (moments before, the defense had come up big, only to have the
    offense come back and go three downs and out in poor field position).  
    If anything, I'm more impressed with their defense than I was before 
    the game.  They didn't get the job done on offense, though.
    
    I still think the best team in the Big-10 should be Michigan, if they
    had a coach.  Moeller is proving himself to be in the same mold as ol'
    Bo, conservative as hell.
    
    Michigan State?  Uh-uh.  Like their quarterback, Dan Enos (recently
    arrested for public drunkenness but apparently no suspension
    forthcoming), they are up and down.  They'll have their hands full with
    USC if that is indeed the matchup in the Hancock bowl.
    
    Illinois?  Once the top-ranked defense in the Big-10 until Iowa got
    through with them.  Sinking fast...
    
    glenn
    

    Dan Enos was NOT arrested for public drunkeness.  He was arrested
    for allegedly urinating in a public place (in the darkness at 1:30
    AM is public), a charge he vehemently denies and plans to fight in
    court.
    
    Remember, dear sharks, that Dan Enos is no Michael Graham or King 
    Lice or Marvin Barnes or Scott Skiles - he's a straight A student
    who has already been accepted into two medical schools.  So, HANDS
    OFF this upstanding youth, you... you... muckrackers.
    
    As my mama used to say, if you don't have anything good to say 
    then... get OUT.
    
    As for Iowa's D, remember that Ohio State has a_offense as good as
    they come, what with Frey and Smith et al, so don't debit them too
    much.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Was he unrinating in the wind like you do MrT?  I gots to know!
    
    				/Don

    Maybe he was working on developing the muscles in his throwing arm.
    
    I've got to admit though, if I got nabbed for everytime I wizzed in
    public, I'd be prime material for America's Most Wanted.  
    
    	--dan'l

    T,
    
    You really crack me up sometimes.   Geez, I could care less what the
    hail Don Enos, whomever he is, was doing at 1:30am.   Big deal if he's
    got good grades and is bound for med school.   If he was drunk in
    public, he broke the law.  If he made sissy in public, he broke the
    law.   Pure and simple.   
    
    I just like to see you exercise that Good Vs. Evil muscle you got.  If
    a Wake Forest player played his boom box too loud, you'd want to call
    for a state investigation, fer cripes sake.
    
    Once again, the Four Rules apply ....
    
    	1) The Big Ten can do no wrong.
    	2) If so, see No. 1.
    	3) The ACC can do no right.
    	4) If so, see No. 3 *and* No. 1.
    
    Unreal.
    
    Bob Hunt

    >Unreal.
    >
    >Bob Hunt
    
    I think this about sums your writings up: Unreal.  Bob Hunt.
    
    >if he's got... If he was...  If he made...
    
    If.  *If*.  IF.  This persniketty little predicate, with all its
    attendant vagaries, purty much characterizes the yellow-journalism
    writings of your TTom/Bob Hunt class a writer.  
    
    IF.  
    
    Well, we're Americans who believe in The American Way up where I sit
    and that means *innocent until proven guilty* buddy and though that
    may not sit well with the likes a you that's the way it's gotta be.
    
    I know how let down you guys were with the Illinois thing, where the
    worst infraction turned out to be sold tix/cashed tix/no credit chex
    and how that left all a you with a_empty feeling inside but now to 
    come 'round working this Dan Enos thing is pissing up a tree buddy.
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    Dan Enos was pissing up a tree?  No wonder they nailed him for such a
    trivial offense...
    
    > Well, we're Americans who believe in The American Way up where I sit
    > and that means *innocent until proven guilty* buddy and though that
    > may not sit well with the likes a you that's the way it's gotta be.
    
    Where was this sentiment with all the other scandals and alleged
    cover-ups we've heard about in here?  We can start with the Hank Gathers 
    tragedy.  (Besides, the NCAA doesn't prove anybody innocent or guilty.
    They just say it's so, and that's that.)
    
    glenn
    

       Not to mention T's past arrows at Paul Westhaid.
                                 Denny

Enos piddles and its yellow journalism.

TTom

    Enos *purportedly* piddles.  Big difference, not that YOU would
    understand the inner workings of the Justice System, TTom.  You're
    still left holding the bag on that would-be bust a Illinois of yours.
    
    I've showed no hypocrisy on my strict and consistent adherence to due
    process; ya don't need a weathermain to know which way the ambition is
    blowing in Raleigh or in Long Beach, fer Chrisakes, where you have a
    bad heart and a jailbreak-frenetic game plan and the depillitator in
    the storeroom...
    
    Big10 Tom

>    still left holding the bag on that would-be bust a Illinois of yours.

Sir, making references to fondling the private anatomy parts of another
is hardly a fit topic for public discussion. You may profer liberal
behavior with others, but I think that you should keep this behavior
within you own local mores.

As to the issue, so far we have Enos was either busted or not, he peed in
public or he didn't. Is that about it? One question: is it true that he
was only following in the footsteps of the paragon of virtue Ezor?

Also, on a more serious note, I believe "would-be" is inaccurate: in
fact, Illinois was busted and got 3 years. Have you read what really
happened yet, T?

TTom

    Hmmmm.  Minnesota dominates the Hoosiers haid-to-haid, they finish
    ahaid of them in the Big10 standings, they beat the Champs Iowa
    in the season finale to take back Floyd of Rosedale, and yet it's
    the Hoosiers who're going to the Peach Bowl and not the Gophers.
    
    While I am certainly glad to see the Hoosiers go to a bowl, especially 
    for any much-needed advantage the game might provide in the recruiting
    sweepstakes, it's telling that the *real* reason the Hoosiers are 
    going instead of the Gophs is that the selection committee knew that
    a_Indiana appearance would fill more seats than Minnesota would.  
    
    This, therefore, means that the Hoosier fans beat the Minnesota fans
    while the gridiron Gophs shellacked the grid Hoosiers, which goes to
    show how arbitrary and sometimes just plain wrong the whole bowl game
    process has got.
    
    The Gophers have bigger stronger players and would be a much better
    bet to knock off whichever SEC squad goes than the Hoosiers.  As much
    as I hate to say this my objective analytical urges make me do so.
    
    Big10 Tom 

    Hey, T, nice to see some objectivity in your writing ...
    
    So, now you should quit talking and start a_doin' sumptin' 'bout it,
    right ???
    
    Like writing to the Hoosier AD and urging him not to send the team to
    Atlanta, or by insisting that they give back the Peach Bowl bounty, or
    by demanding that Minnesota go instead, or maybe even {gasp!}
    *apologizing* for this sad turn of events.
    
    I tell ya what, T.  I will if *you* will.  I will write to the Virginia
    AD and demand that the Wahoos not go to New Orleans if you will write
    to the Indiana AD and tell him to keep the Hoosiers home for the
    holidays.   How about it, big guy ???   Put your money where your
    plates are.
    
    Cue the "Jeopardy" theme song; here comes the "I just cain't ..."
    reply.
    
    Bob Hunt

Where's 'Saw? Is it time for another letter writing campaign?

TTom

    Nah, leave 'Saw outta dis one.   He'll just mix it all up with all dat
    rugby talk.
    
    Lessee if T has the filberts to back up his words.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Wouldn't be much to give, T, for such an average team as Indiana.  I 
    tip my cap to the Baylor Bears, for one, who after losing the big game 
    to Texas "just said no" to the Poulan-Weed-Eater-Independence-Bowl 
    (now wouldn't that have looked good at the top of that piece of paper
    Thomas Jefferson penned?).  The Maryland team I was plugging over the
    North Carolina teams snuck in there out of the blue when Baylor so
    honorably backed out.
    
    In all honesty, I think Indiana got the nod over Minnesota not mainly
    because of the fan support but because most of the deals were all but
    signed in advance, and without the upset over Iowa, Minnesota was
    looking at a losing season.  There aren't many taboos left held by 
    the bowl committees anymore, but one of them is still a losing record.
    
    glenn
    

    >Lessee if T has the filberts to back up his words.
    
    Or better put, "let's see if T is sucker enough to accept this
    stupid one-sided deal as offered by the unscrupulous Bob (Hunt,
    not Pantheon-dweller)."
    
    What do *you* have to lose in this proposed transaction?
    
    Nothing.  Cuz everybody already KNOWS what a joke Virgina's month
    in the sun was, and that they're a stumbling Twentysomething team
    that threatens to come off like so much sour milk clumsily spilled
    into the Sugar Bowl who'll turn all that fine delta sugar into crusty
    yellowed lumps cuz they got there as one a the most overrated squads
    in college gridiron history.
    
    What do *I* have to lose?
    
    Something.  The Peach bowl is a trash bowl (in fack the perfect bowl
    for UVA or ClemSuck or Tech) and the Hoosiers - who pretended at #22
    for one lousy week and were suspect in even that role - then promptly 
    slouched behind their 220 lb defensive tackles back into their rightful
    status as a Thirtsomething team, a status recognized by all and one which 
    they'll wear in a frank manner on their sleeves going into Atlanta.
    
    Bob Hunt, in extending this cruddy "offer" to me you come off like a main
    capable of diluting a baby's formula so that the excess powder cain in 
    turn be palmed off as crack [Crackhouse Nestle's].
    
    Shame on you.
    
    Big10 Tom

 Ta-da !!!  
 
 {Bow to the front} {Bow to the left} {Bow to the right}  
 {Wave like the Pope to all the adoring fans}
 {Step forward to the mike to address the teeming throng}
 
 Well, I'd like to thank my wife and kids, my friends, my dog, anyone and
 everyone who helped me make this such a special day.
 
 {Throw big wet kiss to crowd}
 
 Thank you, I love you all ...
 
 {Waves and hops into the limo and speeds off with Elle MacPherson for
 a little "post-game" celebration}
 
 Bob Hunt

It would appear that the current Indiana administration and MrT have
diverged on the issue of going to bowls. Surely, the current Hoosiers do
not share his opinions about the Peach Bowl (e.g,."a trash bowl"). I feel
confident that had they agreed with this, they would never have cheapened
themselves and accepted this bowl. Why risk being accused of selling out
for the bucks when so much principle is on line.

TTom

    Throwing the gauntlet down to Bob Hunt:
    
    Bob, you send a letter to your college Prez demanding that he call a
    press conference and publicly denounce Thomas Jefferson as a "Hitler"
    for having owned slaves and issuing a proclamation that all usages of
    the Jefferson's name, image, and references will forthwith expunged and 
    erased everywhere they manifest themselves on campus or on materials 
    under the university's direct control and I'll send one to mine demanding 
    that he and call a press conference denouncing the lovelorn homosexual
    PhD candidate who set fire to the grad stacks on the fifth floor of the 
    main campus library in 1971 during the big Black Panthers rally hoping
    to set them up to take the fall for the crime and issuing a proclamation
    that any future destuction, defacing, or otherwise hurtful behavior 
    towards the library (to include overdue returns and unapaid fines by 
    star basketball players) will be punished under the terms of a law he
    will forthwith introduce in the state legislature titled using the name
    of the lovelorn grad student who only served two years of his sentence
    for his grand arson conviction.   
    
    Pssst, guys, anybody wanna bet ol' Hunt'll cop out on this like he has
    on every *other* chance we've given him to make good on his "convicitons?"
    
    >Why risk being accused of selliing out for the bucks whewn so much
    >principle is on line.
    
    The trouble with you TTom is that you've been talking through those
    pantyhose you wear for a stocking cap so long that you've accumulated 
    hair in your mouth and have stopped making sense.  Shave your teef and
    get back to me willya.
    
    No pinciple is on the line.  The Hoosiers *are* bowl sluts who need 
    the exposure for recruiting (they don't need the dough) and they are
    embracing this undeserved bowl trip and doggone it why not.  Doing so
    will certainly in no way "cheapen" them, for the program ranks 11th 
    all time on the Big10 gridiron ledger, they don't pretend to be anything
    more than what they are (a hungry team with some talent and some holes
    who're overjoyed to actually be invited to a bowl game), and there 
    appearance in Atlanta will not cheapen, damage, defile, or mock the 
    great game of college football as will Virgina's trip to Nawlins.
           
    Big10 Tom

Noters beware. When quoted by MrT from previous quotes, noters are warned
that they should reread their own text to ensure that it has been
acurately reproduced.

Case in point:

>>    >Why risk being accused of selliing out for the bucks whewn so much
>>    >principle is on line.

while what what was written is:

>... Why risk being accused of selling out
>for the bucks when so much principle is on line.

Clearly, it is MrT who has the hirsute palate. 

>    No pinciple is on the line.  The Hoosiers *are* bowl sluts ...

MrT has spoken. 

TTom

    Alright, T, I'll write a letter to the University denouncing Thomas
    Jefferson if you'll pack up your sorry butt and move out of Minnesota. 
    
    Actually, I want you to move *everybody* starting in Louisiana and
    working your way up north to Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota and
    then west over to North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana.  Then clear
    'em all out from Nebraska and Kansas, too.   I want you to boot 'em all
    out of their homes and businesses and ship them all back to France. 
    Then I want you to sell all that rich farm and prarie land back to the
    French real cheap, ya hear now.  Tell them Mr. Jefferson never should
    have snookered poor ol' Napoleon for that land back in 1805.
    
    Think you can handle that, T ???   Good, I can hear some moving
    company's phone ringing right now.   He's saying ...
    
                    "Good morning, Norfolk Van Lines".
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    Actually, Minnesota cain't go to a bowl as they're on probation.
    
    Can any Big X bigot give us some details on this probation?
    It wouldn't stem from the time of Saint Holtz would it?
    
    Bob V.
    

>    Actually, I want you to move *everybody* starting in Louisiana and
>    working your way up north to Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota and
>    then west over to North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana.  Then clear
>    'em all out from Nebraska and Kansas, too.   
    
    If we wait until December 3, the earthquake will take care of that.
    
    	--dan'l

    >Actually, Minnesota cain't go to a bowl as they're on probation.
    
    The Gophers had high hopes of going to a bowl game but understood
    from the Peach Bowl Committee (who made their final decision late
    Saturday) that cuz a their loss to lowly Utah that they would git
    the invite to Atlanta only if the Hoosiers were to lose to Purdue,
    which didn't happen.
    
    Good factual accurate reportage, Bob V.  Say, R U a_ACC main by
    any chancet?
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom

    And you are wrong, wrong, wrong as well ...
    
    The papers down here were all reporting last week that *if* Indiana
    lost to Purdue that the Peach Bowl bid would go to South Carolina
    instead.
    
    Bob Hunt

    
    > that cuz a their loss to lowly Utah that they would git
    > the invite to Atlanta only if the Hoosiers were to lose to Purdue,
    > which didn't happen.
    
    That loss to Utah was a crushing one that has really come back to haunt
    Minnesota.  They seemingly had at least a tie in that game wrapped up,
    and were attempting a very short field goal to win the game with
    seconds left.  The kick was blocked and returned 80+ yards for a
    Utah touchdown as time expired.  One if the wildest endings of the
    year, and a very costly breakdown for the Goofs... 
    
    glenn
    

>      -< Do the Gophs have the ugliest uniforms in the country or what? >-
    
    Right now maybe, but nothing will ever out-ugly Missouri when they used
    to wear all yellow or Clemson's all-orange unies.
    
    With so many different uniforms in the college ranks, I've got to go
    with Penn State as having the best just because it's plain and simple.
    
    	--dan'l

    re .260
    
    Dear Big X Bigot,
    
    Monday's NATIONAL is my source for Minnesota being on probation.
    Check it out.
    
    Actually I'm not an ACC fan,.  How can anyone support a conference
    whose noters are already talkin' basketball.  There's plenty of
    time to talk basketball after the Bowls are over if you have to
    talk about it at all.
    
    While were on Bowls the ACC should do the right thing and flip-flop
    the Virginia and Tech bowl games.  GT against Tenn and UVA against
    NU since they both lost their quarterbacks!
    
    Bob V.
    
    p.s.  Actually, I support the team that gave Minnesota their worst
          whuppin' this year.
    
    

    Don't lissen to Bob Hunt, Bob V., he's a polemiscist.  The Golden
    Goofers are NOT proscribed from bowl games by their probation (in
    fack I don't even think they *are* on probation right now, although
    they weal be after the Luther Darville thing goes down, which btw,
    probably will end Lou Holtz's stint at Notre Shame).  The Peach Bowl
    was being quoted in the paper up here every day for two weeks, and
    the coach and players and sportswriters and fans were on eyewitness
    news speculating about how if Indiana only lost and they beat Iowa
    how they all would be on plane tickets to Hotlanta cuz they were NOT
    on probationary proscription from bowl game participation.
    
    Or... could be that Bob Hunt is right and the world is wrong and nobody
    up here knew that they couldn't go, some big mistake type a thing you
    know.  
    
    Glenn, how in the HAIL did you actually see that Utah game?  One nit,
    though: The kick by Berglund (a transfer from some other school) was low
    and that's why it was blocked.  Gutekunst took over D-coaching before
    the Indiana game and since then this squad has looked very very real.
    
    I think that if they played Nebraska again they'd lose by only two
    touchdowns.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Minnesota *is* listed as on probation in the conference standings I've 
    seen, but as T suggests it probably is only a scholarship reduction or
    something as I have also heard nothing about bowl/TV restrictions.
    
    > Glenn, how in the HAIL did you actually see that Utah game?  One nit,
    > though: The kick by Berglund (a transfer from some other school) was low
    > and that's why it was blocked.  Gutekunst took over D-coaching before
    > the Indiana game and since then this squad has looked very very real.
    
    I only saw a replay.  I think it was a night game early in the year
    and ESPN cut away from the regular game to show it.  I didn't mean to 
    imply that the kicker was not at fault, only that it was quite a
    distrastous turn of events for which the special teams were
    responsible.
    
    glenn
     

    
    The NO-Bowl business was my inturp-tation.  The paper, The NATIONAL, 
    had a little asterisk by Minnesota's name which indicated they were
    on probation.  I though you couldn't go Bowling if you're on probation,
    but, based on your reports, it must be some milder form of the disease.
    
    You might be right about MU staying within a couple of TD's of NU 
    now and if Nebraska doesn't get their new QB goin' they might even
    beat 'em.  Word is that he, Grant, hadn't had much time workin' with
    the first team.  He'd been injured (knee), but if he's going to be
    your backup man you've got to get him more time with the first string.
    
    NU seems to have a lock on MU, but then they used to have one on CU!!!
    
    Bob V.
    

    This year Cornhustker collapse probably vaults (sinks?) Dr. Tom into
    Dean Smith-like status.  Think back to the preseason, and they were 
    saying that maybe this defense was the best in the history of the game.
    Dr. Tom *always* has the talent, their nemesis OU was down, hell, all
    of college grid seems to've gone the parity route... in short, it was 
    the perfect year for a peaking big-time program to get over the top,
    finally, and what happens to Big Red?  [choke]
    
    I think that it is time for Devaney to step aside (I saw him on TV and
    for crissakes we're talking Dawn of the Dead casting material fellas)
    and for Dr. Tom to hand over the keys to a more innovative coach and to
    become A.D.
    
    Big10 Tom  
    

    re .268
    
    Dear Big X Bigot,
    
    This is a matter I've been thinking of addressing for some time and
    will do so over in the Big 8 note.  However, a few short comments.  
    
    While NU has had talent, they've seldom had the talent of OU or several 
    other major schools, so T.O. has done a very good job over the years.  
    He did have the talent in the early mid eighties and did have the best
    teams in the country two years running.  The factors surrounding the 
    lack of a National Champonship from that must weigh heavily on him.
    
    Devaney was a great coach and has generally done a good job as AD,
    but his handling of the scheduling these past two years were poor.
    
    So, when all is said and done, I agree that it's time for Bob to
    set down and let Tom be moved upstairs.
    
    Bob V.
    

    
    > This year Cornhustker collapse probably vaults (sinks?) Dr. Tom into
    > Dean Smith-like status.  Think back to the preseason, and they were 
    > saying that maybe this defense was the best in the history of the game.
    
    And the worst part is that you bought it, T!  ;-)
    
    Osborne most certainly had better talent than Oklahoma, by far, in the
    decade of the 80's.  Look at the professional representation.  The 5-5
    record doesn't cut it, especially considering OU's 8-3 edge in the 70's
    when the Sooners were the ones up.
    
    glenn
    

    
    Purdue's football coach (name=?) resigned today....

Fred Akers. The Guy Lewis of Football. Actually, that's unfair to Guy.
This guy is just plain bad. No flirtations with greatness, goodness or
goodest here.

TTom

    Since I found out I coach Purdue's basketball today, I will volunteer
    to coach their football as well.  Can't do worse than they did :-)
    
    Charles
    

    It's a damning statement that the Purue A.D. didn't fire Akers 
    first for the sheer pleasure of it.  
    
    >Fred Akers.  The Guy Lewis of Football.
    
    Excuse me, but if Bo Schembechler hears of this he's gonna be mighty
    sore that you're out here handing off his sobriquet to a_undeserving
    bum like the Fred.
    
    Hey Charles, let Keady (who's a great skills teacher) hang onto the
    reins during the regular season and take over for him come tourney
    time willya.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Thanks Tom for the confidence you have in my coaching ability for
    Purdue at tourney time.  Don't whine now when I beat IU in the Final
    promise?  :-)
    
    Just love to dream in December.
    
    Charles :)
    

    Any word on this guy who was just hired as the new football coach
    at Purdue?  I read where he was OF Coord there in the early 80s,
    but what else about him.
    
    Will he be smart enough, for instance, to not let a superstar like
    home boy Jeff George transfer to a competitor for no particular
    reason?
    
    Big10 Tom

His name is Colletto and he was most recently a Buckeye. After Fred
Akers, I'm sure he'll do fine.

TTom

Big 10 commish Jim Delaney (a Carolina man, no less) is reportedly pushing
for a deal which would guarantee the first five (5) finishers in the B10
a spot in a specific bowl game.  (i.e. 1st place finish = Rose Bowl;
2nd place finish = Sugar Bowl, etc.)

Boy won't it be a thrill for the winner of the SEC (a stronger football
conference anyway) to get to play a team that didn't even win its own
conference?  The same could be said for other conferences.  A team
from the ACC could go undefeated with a shot at the mythical Title
(read: Georgia Tech) and get stuck playing a 2nd or 3rd place finisher
from the B10.

All logic would dictate there's no way this deal will come to pass, but
who says logic plays any part in the decision making?  (We all know $$$$
is the #1 consideration, not what makes sense.)  

The B10 is already one of the primary opponents of a tournament to pick 
a real national champion.  (They don't want to give up the huge bounty 
they receive via the Rose Bowl.)  Now they're not only trying to preserve
the status quo but take us further down the road to money-over-
integrity.

:^(


- ACC Chris
    

    Delany's plan was very good news for the Big10.  I support it without
    reservation except that I feel we should dump the Rose and retain the
    option to send our strongest squad to whichever bowl affords us the 
    best shot at the Mythical.
    
    As for the other conferences, and your example of Georgia Tech, let's
    be honest: GaTech has no business with a shot at the Mythical.  Who 
    dey played?  Nobody.  Their toughest game was Clemson, who doesn't 
    deserve to be reanked either cuz they ain't played nobody themselves.
    Second toughest game was lowly unranked Virgina.  It's a crying shame
    that a mediocre squad like Tech cain have a shot at the Mythical cuz
    they took care to avoid all competition.  This cain't be said for the
    Big10 squads, which is why they weren't overrated this year a la Tech,
    Virgina, et al.
    
    Big10 Tom

    I don't think I like the idea of giving 5 out of 10 (or is it 11?)
    members of a conference a guaranteed bowl berth. What about a worthy
    independent, like Syracuse or BC in the Flutie era? Aren't they more
    deserving than a team that won half its conference games? This is getting 
    to be almost as bad as the NBA/NHL. I'll let all you "<fill in conference
    name> bigget's" [sic] argue the relative strengths of various
    conferences. 
    
    In European pro soccer, you can probably make the same kind of
    arguments that the German Bundesliga is a stronger league than the
    Italian Serie A (or vice versa), but they use actual results to
    determine relative strengths. It's a complicated formula, but it works
    something like this: 
    
    Of the 65 clubs entered in the UEFA Cup (from 30 nations) the countries
    with the most amount of team are the ones whose clubs progress to the
    later rounds most often. The reason why Denamrk and the Rep of Ireland
    who have strong national teams usually only place one club in the
    tournament is that their clubs have fared poorly over the last 5 years,
    usually getting knocked out in the first round. The reason why Italy or
    Germany may have 5 or 6 teams qualifying is that they have consistently
    beat clubs from other countries in Cup play over the last 5 years.
    
    So, using a formula like this, the Big 10 would probably get FEWER
    teams in bowls (uless you wan to count the game played the Tuesday
    before Christmas in a HS field in Arkansas as a "bowl"), because of
    their less-than-stellar record in the Rose Bowl over the years. 
    
    Besides, the purpose is to reward good teams for a good year, and over
    time, conferences can go from strong to weak and back again. That's why
    the 5 year record makes sense. After all, wasn't Harvard a powerhouse
    in the 1920s? Why aren't THEY playing the big bowl somewhere for New
    Year's? 
    
    Tom