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Conference 7.286::sports_90

Title:OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid
Notice:Please review note 1.83 before writing anything.
Moderator:VAXWRK::NEEDLE
Created:Thu Dec 14 1989
Last Modified:Fri Dec 17 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:438
Total number of notes:50420

5.0. "Official NFL topic" by CSC32::J_WARDLE (Member: Namath_Jihad) Thu Dec 14 1989 19:34

    This topic is for the discussion of the NFL
T.RTitleUserPersonal
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5.1DECXPS::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Fri Dec 15 1989 09:176
    Hey, is this note for just the NFL as an entity, or anything to
    do with the NFL and it's member teams?
    
    Wantless minds inquiring
    
    Lee
5.2CSC32::J_WARDLEMember: Namath_JihadFri Dec 15 1989 15:273
    Any NFL discussion you wish to start.
    
    Feel free to start a team specific note...
5.3Enquiring minds want to know..RIGEL4::JBONNOMon Dec 18 1989 12:026
    Question:
    
    Why do the Dolphins play the Chiefs twice when they are not even in the
    same division?
    
    jab
5.4MUSKIE::WIERSBECKWinter basically stinks!Mon Dec 18 1989 15:485
    Last place teams (or next to last-not sure) play each other twice 
    the next year.  Green Bay plays Dallas twice this year as well.
    
    
    Spud
5.5Brad Beckman killed in car crashVAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says "Good-Bye."Mon Dec 18 1989 16:0420
Atlanta Falcons tight end Brad Beckman was killed early this
morning in an auto accident on Interstate 85 near Lilburn,
Georgia.  

Beckman, who would have been 25 in two weeks, is the second
Falcon player to be killed in an auto accident this season.
Rookie tackle Ralph Norwood was fatally injured last month.  

Police said Beckman's car skidded on an icy surface and hit the
rear of another vehicle.  Beckman's car slid into the opposite
lane of traffic and was struck broadside by a truck.  

Beckman played at Nebraska-Omaha and was a seventh-round draft
pick of the Minnesota Vikings in 1988.  He was cut and later
played 12 games with the New York Giants.  Beckman joined the
Vikings last March.  He had 11 receptions for 102 yards and one
touchdown this season.  

The Falcons said funeral arrangements were incomplete.  
5.6I knew Philly would chokeCSC32::GL_JOHNSONShe's Stone Cold Bush!Tue Dec 19 1989 03:5712
    
    
         New Orleans 30, Philly BEagles 20.
    
         GIANTS are now back in first place where they belong. 
    
         I sincerely hope that they get to play the Rams at the Meadowlands
    where it will be lovely GIANT weather.  We have one helluva payback for
    them.
    
                                                 GJ
    
5.7COBRA::DINSMOREMcfall=francessa , true sport wizardsTue Dec 19 1989 09:4914
    
    heres my scenario...
    
    giants defeat raiders [bo dont know  giant defense :).. giaNts have
    week off..  then i get full reign of house  for  game  jan7th as
    the giants host  ..... the pack or  the vikings.. phila is home
    wildcard  they deafeat rams....  as giants  defeat nfc  central
    champ...  phila defeats niners in san fran.. giant  host  championship
    
    game in meadowlands against phila...
    
    pretty easy huh?? :))
    
    dinz
5.8Help WJO::BRADSHAWTue Dec 19 1989 10:376
    Could someone post the scoring summary for last nights game.  A
    co-worker is sweating out his fantasy football playoffs and needs to
    know who scored the last 2 td's for New Orleans and how far of a play
    they were??
    
    Chuck
5.9RIGEL4::JBONNOTue Dec 19 1989 10:5210
    re Chuck
    
    With the score 20-16, Fourcade threw a 20 yard touchdown pass to Eric
    Martin.  Then, Buford Jordan scored on a 1 yard run after an
    interception by Dave Waymer.  I don't have the complete summary,
    however.
    
    HTH
    
    jab
5.10LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureTue Dec 19 1989 11:347
    
    	re: .7
    
    	only one problem with that scenario... the giants aren't going
    to be playing that conference championship game in nj.  that's right,
    and remember who has divs on payback for a playoff game a couple
    of years back that hospitalized montana.  :)
5.11COBRA::DINSMOREMcfall=francessa , true sport wizardsTue Dec 19 1989 11:454
    WELL, TIME WILL TELL.. niners certainly are tough..
    
    dinz
    
5.12LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureTue Dec 19 1989 11:577
    
    	well the way it looks now, the only way the niners and giants
    would meet would be in the conference championship...  i sort of
    hope joe plays in chicago at least a little bit because otherwise
    it will be a month layoff before he plays again.  needless to say,
    the nfc championship game will be the superbowl game in my mind.
     :)
5.13Dinz has it rightOURBOX::LAZARUSDave Lazarus NYA DSS 321-5183Tue Dec 19 1989 12:3917
    Dinz has it right. The Eagles are going into San Francisco and will
    knock Montana unconscious. 

    I just don't think San Fran is physical enough to handle the Eagles.
    The Giants get a laugher against Green Bay after Minnesota chokes
    at home against Cincy and then it's the real NFL championship 
    Philly at NJ  on Jan 14 with game time tempaerature a balmmy 13
    and the wind chill minus 20. Simms doesn't wear gloves,Megget doesn't
    get the ball near the goal line and LT's ankle is better.
    
    Denver only has to stay awake to advance in the AFC. 
    
    If you look at my title in the Ultimate Handicapper predictuions
    for this past week,it said "Giants thank New Orleans". Thank you
    Saints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Thank you New Orleans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   
5.14overlooking s.f. againLEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureTue Dec 19 1989 12:498
                                                           
>        I just don't think San Fran is physical enough to handle the Eagles.

    	who won the s.f. - philly game earlier this season?  surely
    if n.o. can handle them, the team with the best record in the nfl
    and toughest schedule can win.
    
    sean
5.15RIGEL4::JBONNOTue Dec 19 1989 13:0011
    Correct me if I am wrong, but the playoff scenerio should go like this:
    
    Wildcard winner vs. San Francisco
    NFC Central Champ. vs. NFC East Champ.
    
    Therefore, Phila. would have to beat the Gints first before they could
    play the Niners.
    
    The point is moot, the Browns will win the Super Bowl.
    
    jab
5.16ooops, my bad!RIGEL4::JBONNOTue Dec 19 1989 13:018
    Void the last reply.
    
    I forgot the Giants were going to win the division because Phila.
    CHOKED last night.
    
    My apologies.
    
    jab
5.17SALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAINTue Dec 19 1989 13:043
       The wildcard winner can't play against the Conference Champ from
    its own division in the 1st round, them's da roolz!
                                 Denny
5.18LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureTue Dec 19 1989 13:068
    
    	the wildcard winner *CANNOT* play the divison winner from its
    own division:
    
    	NY cannot play PHILA (only in conference championship)
    	S.F. cannot play L.A.   "  "     "          "
                                     
    sean
5.19damn, beat me to it :)LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureTue Dec 19 1989 13:061
    
5.20Joe wil goAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacTue Dec 19 1989 15:051
    My paper said that Montana will play against the Bears.
5.21HelpRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYabba Dabba DoooooTue Dec 19 1989 15:055
    ANyone have a boxscore from last Monday nights game, the Rams
    vs. the 49ers, or perhaps remember the scorers?  I know Montana
    to Taylor for 2 tds.  ANyone?
    
    JD
5.22hope this helps :) - seanLEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureTue Dec 19 1989 15:1448
             <<< STKCSC::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]NFL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< NFL - American Football >-
================================================================================
Note 133.41          Tell Me! Who Can Beat The Forty Niners!            41 of 52
LEVERS::STROUT "a pound of obscure"                  46 lines  13-DEC-1989 20:42
                               -< s.f. vs. l.a. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    	according to the summary in the paper today, here is how the
    game went:
    	
    	FIRST QUARTER:
    
    	Rams TD  (7-0):	Bell 3 yd run
    	Rams TD (14-0):	Johnson 4 yd. pass (highlight - 42 yd pass
    			interference call)
    	Rams FG (17-0):	Lansford, 25 yds.  (keyed by Irving interception)
    
    
    	SECOND QUARTER:
    
    	S.F. FG (17-3): Cofer, 19 yds
    	S.F. TD (17-10): Taylor, 92 yd. pass (highlight: TAYLOR!)
    
    
    	THIRD QUARTER:
    
    	L.A. TD (24-10): McGee, 13 yd pass from Everett
    
    
    	FOURTH QUARTER:
    
    	L.A. FG (27-10): Lansford, 22 yds.  (key - 30 yd total penalty
    			 against Haley of S.F.)    
    
    
    	S.F. TD (27-17): Wilson 7 yd pass from Montana
    	S.F. TD (27-23): Taylor 95 yd, missed extra point (highlight:
    			 Everett fumble)
    	S.F. TD (27-30): Craig, 1 yd run. (highlight: fumble on kickoff
    			 return)
    
    
    	What a truely incredible comeback for the 49ers.  If the Rams
    had not failed on a fake field goal attempt the game would have
    probably been dramatically different.  I bet L.A. wishes they could
    redo that play.
5.23JULIET::MAY_BRIt ain't the size its how you use itTue Dec 19 1989 17:4617
    
    I think someone a few back forgot that SF beat Philly by 10 early
    this season.  Or that several people last year said that the niners
    couldn't go all the way because they don't play physical football
    (would someone tell Ronnie Lott that he doesn't play physical?).
    
    Last night's game just showed that the Eagles are a young team.
    With maturity they will begin to play with more consistency, but
    until that happens, there will be games like last night.  I wonder
    if Buddy Ryan is the one to teach the Eagles maturity.
    
    I am not unconviced that the Eagles are 2nd best team in the NFL,
    and I'm a Giants fan.
    
    Bruce
   
     
5.24Will Joe be standing?That's the key.OURBOX::LAZARUSDave Lazarus NYA DSS 321-5183Tue Dec 19 1989 18:496
    Not to demean the 49ers,the most successful team of the 80's,but
    the victory over the Bears last year was a against an injury decimated
    team. The win in Philly earlier this year was more Montana magic.
    I just can't see the Niner's OL keeping White,Pitts,Brown and Simmons
    from knocking Joe out of the game. Can Steve Young do it? That's
    the key.
5.25JULIET::MAY_BRChipmunks roasting on an open fire...Tue Dec 19 1989 19:138
    
    The niners seem to make up for an average OL by throwing short quick,
    passes that don't give the pass rush enough time to develop.  Last
    year's injury thing just played into SF's hand.  They too had several
    injuries but hte real strength of the team is their depth.  If the  
    Bears had made some decent draft picks, they'd have some depth also.
                                                                  
    Bruce
5.26DUB02::EGRIWed Dec 20 1989 11:539
    As long as everyone keeps underestimating then 49ers, they should
    repeat as Super Bowl winners. I agree that they mightn't be the
    top defensive or offensive team in the leagure but they've got the
    right blend to go all the way again. It won't be easy but this is
    the NFL and every team has shown that on the day not too many can
    be taken for granted.
    
    
    Ted. (Let's go 9ers)    
5.27LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureWed Dec 20 1989 12:449
        
    re:
    	actually, they are the top rated offensive team in the NFL.
     Seeing as they have beaten both the Giants and Philly (not sure
    about Minn.. help?), I see the only real *super* threat as the l.a.
    rams.  that will be the super bowl game to watch if they meet in
    the conference championship.
    
    sean
5.28JULIET::MAY_BRChipmunks roasting on an open fire...Wed Dec 20 1989 14:415
    
    The niners have also beaten the Vikes.  I can't see LA posing much of a
    problem after what happened to them a week ago Monday.
         
    Bruce
5.29BSS::RIGGENSteamboat 104inches newWed Dec 20 1989 14:4611
    The 49'ers were 15-1 a couple of years ago when they ran into a buzz
    saw Vikes squad. The major difference is that they have played the
    toughest schedule in the NFL (-the Bronco's) this year and proved that
    they can beat the entire NFL. 
    
    I see (aka Karnac) a Roger Craig injury causing a loss to a Giant or
    Philly team in the NFC championship.
    
    Then we can here Mendez whine about the injury well into the 90's...
    
    
5.30JULIET::MAY_BRCongrats to N. Cal's Greg LemondWed Dec 20 1989 14:5711
    
    Correction:  the niners were 13-3 when they lost to the Vikes. 
    The year they were 15-1 they trounced Miami in the 'bowl.  They
    would have been undefeated that year but Ray Wershing missed a game
    winning chip shot with no time left on the clock.
    
    The team has used the '86-87 season (when they lost to the Vikes) as
    a tool to remind themselves of what not to do.  Ronnie Lott was
    talking about this just the other day.
    
    Bruce
5.31s.o.s. strength of scheduleLEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureWed Dec 20 1989 14:5825
    
    	I have to disagree that the Broncos have played a tougher schedule
    than the Niners (could be wrong).  if someone has a listing of the
    teams played by the niners and broncos, could you compare them by
    adding up points for each team they defeated based on wins:
    
    	1	Dallas
    	3	Atlanta
    	4	NY Jets
    	5	San Diego, New England, Tampa Bay
    	6	Chicago, Detroit
    	7	Kansas City, Seattle
    	8	Buffalo, Miami, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
    		Raiders, New Orleans
    	9	Houston, Washington, Minnesota, Green Bay
    	10	Philadelphia, Rams
    	11	Denver, NY Giants
    	13 	San Francisco                      
    
    	does Denver get more points than S.F.?  (mind you I know this
    isn't the *correct* way to measure strength of schedule but I would
    just like to know).  thanks
    
    sean
    
5.32BSS::RIGGENSteamboat 104inches newWed Dec 20 1989 14:597
    I'm saying the 49'ers played a tougher Schedule...
    
    The didn't play the Bronco's...
    
    (- Bronco's)
    
    Jeff
5.33Rookie Salary Cap in 1991?AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacWed Dec 20 1989 15:035
    An article in today's paper suggested that the rash of rumors about
    college players giving up eligibilty to join the pros next year is due
    to a proposed rookie salary cap that he league wants to impose in 1991. 
    Agents are reportedly urging college juniors to get out now while there
    are still big bucks available.
5.34LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureWed Dec 20 1989 15:136
    
    	re: .32
    
    	oh, sorry.  but anyways, i think it would still be interesting
    to see who gets more points since most of the afc teams are in the
    middle and the nfc teams are on the edges.
5.35fyiSALEM::DODAWalker + VIKINGS = SuperbowlWed Dec 20 1989 16:025
The 49er's did not play the Vikings this year.

HTH.

daryll
5.36Merry Christmas Cincy, oops bumped you outITASCA::WIERSBECKWinter basically stinks!Wed Dec 20 1989 16:0817
    What people seem to forget from a couple of years ago-when the Vikes
    blew out SF in the playoffs, was that the two teams had virtually
    the same record, minus those fake practice (strike) games.
    
    As for this year, the Vikes have struggled on the road, although
    their last three losses (Philly, GB and Cleveland OT) have been by
    a total of eight points.  The offense didn't play too well in any
    of those games.  Conversely, at home the Vikes are unbeatable. 
    As the only unbeaten home team in the NFL, I don't see them choking
    vs. Cincy.                                          
    
    Then, beware Giants, you may see the real Vikes show up in the
    playoffs!  Of course a win by Philly in SF would put us at home
    for the NFC Championship, but let's not get carried away... yet.
    
    
    Spud
5.37JULIET::MAY_BRChimunks roasting on an open fire...Wed Dec 20 1989 16:237
    
    Spud,
    
    The Vikes did not beat SF in the strike year, I think it was the
    year after.
    
    
5.38This just in...SAGE::ROSSFa.la.la.la.la.la.la.la.la&quot;Wed Dec 20 1989 16:2847
VIKINGS LEAD WITH SEVEN PRO BOWL SELECTIONS
-------------------------------------------

The Minnesota Vikings placed seven players on the National
Football Conference Pro Bowl team announced today.  The N-F-C
team will face the American Conference in the Pro Bowl at
Honolulu on February 4th.  

Six Vikings were selected as starters, including defensive end
Chris Doleman, defensive tackle Keith Millard, safety Joey
Browner, cornerback Carl Lee, guard Randall McDaniel and tackle
Gary Zimmerman.  Tight end Steve Jordan was selected as a
reserve.  

The San Francisco 49ers and the Los Angeles Rams each had six
players selected.  The Cincinnati Bengals led the A-F-C Pro
Bowl team with six players chosen.  

Joe Montana of the 49ers was selected at quarterback and wide
receiver Jerry Rice was the only unanimous selection to the
N-F-C team.  Running back Roger Craig, guard Guy McIntyre, wide
receiver John Taylor and safety Ronnie Lott also were selected
from San Francisco.  

Three Rams will start -- Tom Newberry at guard, Jackie Slater
at tackle and Jerry Gray at cornerback.  Linebacker Kevin
Greene, wide receiver Henry Ellard and center Doug Smith also
were chosen from the Rams.  

Lawrence Taylor of the New York Giants was selected for the
ninth straight year and will start at linebacker for the N-F-C. 

Rookie Barry Sanders of the Detroit Lions and Neal Anderson of
the Chicago Bears were selected as the starting running backs
for the N-F-C.  Green Bay's Don Majkowski was picked as the
backup quarterback.  

In the A-F-C, tackle Anthony Munoz of the Bengals was named for
the ninth straight year.  He is joined in the starting lineup
by running back James Brooks, tight end Rodney Holman and
safety David Fulcher of Cincinnati.  Quarterback Boomer Esiason
and guard Max Montoya were selected as backups.  

Houston's Warren Moon was named the starting quarterback for
the A-F-C.  Christian Okoye of Kansas City joins Brooks in the
backfield and Andre Reed of Buffalo and Webster Slaughter of
Cleveland were chosen as the starting wide receivers.  
5.39SALEM::DODAWalker + VIKINGS = SuperbowlWed Dec 20 1989 16:296
Bruce,

I think Spud is right. It was in '87 which I'm pretty sure was 
the strike year.

daryll
5.40McDaniel = All ProSALEM::DODAWalker + VIKINGS = SuperbowlWed Dec 20 1989 16:363
Just goes to show what kind of a steal he was in the '88 draft.

daryll
5.41POGO::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterWed Dec 20 1989 16:444
    How many Rookies have made the Pro Bowl?
    
    Cowboy
    
5.42ROCK::GRONOWSKIiceMANWed Dec 20 1989 16:477
    
    Does anyone have a complete list of the Pro Bowl selections.
    
    If Michael Dean Perry didn't get a starting nod, its a crime!
    He was voted as the AFC Top Defensive player of the year just
    recently... by the coaches.
    
5.43AXIS::ROBICHAUDTheFew,TheProud,TheBoatrockersWed Dec 20 1989 18:508
    	The Vikings did beat the Niners in the strike year.  I think
    the Vikings non-strike record was 8-4 and the Niners non-strike
    record was 10-2.  Just a small nit Bruce, but in the strike year
    the 49ers were 13-2, since they only played 15 games that year.
    The Redskins then beat the Vikings 17-10 in RFK and pounded the
    Broncos in the Bowl.
    
    				/Don
5.44One schlep closerMUSKIE::WIERSBECKWinter basically stinks!Wed Dec 20 1989 18:5711
    Bruce, if I remember right, that was the year the Vikes "backed
    in" at 8-7.  In reality they were 8-4.  After the wild-card romp
    over N.O. and SF win, the Vikes were 10-4.  SF finished the season
    at 10-3 in reality, 13-3 with the fake games.  Vikes went on to
    lose at Washington in the NFC Championship.
    
    I guess it's our turn to knock you guys off this year.  :*)
    
    
    Spud
    
5.45JULIET::MAY_BRChimunks roasting on an open fire...Wed Dec 20 1989 19:255
    
    It's not your turn.  If you remember the Twins also beat the A's
    that year, leading to a Vikes win.  The A's won this year, so...
    
    8^)
5.4689 Pro Bowl StartersTRNING::ALLERTONI hear thunderThu Dec 21 1989 12:3163
NFC:

Offense:

WR - Jerry Rice, Sterling Sharpe

TE - Keith Jackson
OT - Gary Zimmerman, Jackie Slater
OG - Randall McDaniel, Tom Newberry
C  - Jay Hilgenberg
QB - Joe Montana
RB - Barry Sanders, Neal Anderson

Defense :

DE - Chris Doleman, Reggie White
DT - Keith Millard, 
OLB - Tim Harris, Lawrence Taylor
ILB - Mike Singletary, Chris Spielman
CB - Jerry Fray, Carl Lee
S -  Joey Browner, Ronnie Lott

Special :

P - Rich Camarillo
K - Ed Murray
Returns - Dave Meggett
Special Teams : Ron Wolfley


AFC

Offense:

WR - Andre Reed, Webster Slaughter
TE - Rodney Holeman
OT - Anthony Munoz, Chris Hinton
OG - Mike Munchak, Bruce Matthews
C - Ray Donaldson
QB - Warren Moon
RB - Christian Okoye, James Brooks

Defense:

DE - Bruce Smith, Lee Williams
DT - Michael Dean Perry
OLB - Derrick Thomas, Clay Matthews
ILB - Larl Mecklenburg, John Offendahl
CB - Albert Lewis, Frank Minnifield
S -  David Fulcher, Erik McMillan

Special :

P - Reggie Roby
K - David Treadwell
Returns - Ron Woodson
Special Teams : Rufus Porter


Minnesota lands the most spots.  Atlanta gets shut out

Steve
5.47Doc knows who I meanAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacThu Dec 21 1989 12:501
    The AFC's leading punter did not make the pro-Bowl.
5.48his team sucked without himCNTROL::CHILDSNoregia 2 Bush Zip, Nada...Thu Dec 21 1989 13:095
    
    how Moon made it over Bubby I'll never know. Maybe Bubby will be
    the afc MVP... ;^)
    
    mike
5.49whose bubby?LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureThu Dec 21 1989 13:141
    
5.50GENRAL::GIBSONThu Dec 21 1989 13:2414
    
    Bubby Brister.
    
    
    Reggie White making first team is kind of shakey. He hasn't had that
    good of a year. Getting wrestled to the ground half the time doesn't
    help, though. Howie Long not making it is highway robbery. Greg
    Townsend lead the AFC in sacks last year and was jilted. This year he
    is at or very near the top again and shut out again. I am very happy to
    see Spielman make first team. I only saw him once this year,
    Thanksgiving, and he had an outstanding game.
    
                                                    HOOT
     
5.51AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacThu Dec 21 1989 13:316
5.52LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureThu Dec 21 1989 13:598
    re: -1
    
    	not if it is from the AFC!!!  :)
    
    	(so who is bubby?  brister???  really, i dunno! :)
    
    sean
5.53STAR::YANKOWSKASThe restroom door said GentlemenThu Dec 21 1989 14:006
    Re sean:
    
    Bubby Brister is the Steelers' starting QB.
    
    
    py
5.54so i was right! nyah! :)LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureThu Dec 21 1989 14:071
    
5.55COOKIE::MJOHNSTONHell, the fall'll probly kill ya!Thu Dec 21 1989 14:159
----I think Simon Fletcher (Donks) leads in sacks (definitely one of the
leaders). I feel he should have made it to the Pro Bowl this year. He didn't
even make it as an alternate. For the Broncos, Besides Mecklenberg and
Treadwell as starters, Kragen and Dennis Smith made the first team, and Vance
Johnson, Steve Atwater, and Bobby Humphrey were selected as alternates.

Mike JN
    

5.56COMET::MONTGOMERYUno Mas Loss DonksThu Dec 21 1989 14:2712
re:Mike JN
    
Why don't you just put down the whole team....

Makes me laugh that the paper had Collie boy whinning because the whole
team didn't make it...  RALLLLLLPPPHHHHH!!!

The others that you listed Humpty dumpty and Flat top wern't even considered...

Monty


5.57JULIET::MAY_BRIt's a Jingle out thereThu Dec 21 1989 14:369
    
    I can't believe Don Griffin didn't make it for the 9ers.  Part of
    his problem is that he has only one inty because everyone has been
    throwing at Pollard with McKyer being out. 
    
    Minny leads in # players again.  Wonder if they'll make it past
    the 1st round of the playoffs.
    
    Bruce
5.58COOKIE::MJOHNSTONHell, the fall'll probly kill ya!Thu Dec 21 1989 14:3812
5.59LEVERS::STROUTa pound of obscureThu Dec 21 1989 14:393
    
    	offerdall from miami was injured for the first 6 games of the
    season and he still made it for the 4th consecutivce time in 4 years.
5.60GENRAL::GIBSONThu Dec 21 1989 14:4612
    
    Long missed the exact same number of games as Dennis Smith, 3.
    
    I always love these Pro Bowl arguments. Offerdall and Smith have been
    injured and missed games but were praised by the media. Long has been
    injured and missed games the last couple of years but took heat from
    the media. The facts are that some of these guys make it due to
    reputations, not necessarily because they were the best at their
    position for that year.
    
                                                    HOOT
    
5.61Aren't hoops allstars voted by the fans too?SASE::SZABODearSanta,IWantARedCorradoForChristmas!Thu Dec 21 1989 14:494
    It could be a lot worse, Hoot.  Like baseball, it could be left up to
    the fans........
    
    Hawk
5.62REFINE::ASHENew kids got run over by a reindeer...Thu Dec 21 1989 14:523
    
    Meggett shouldn't go over Gray or Stanley for return yards.  Could
    be first time punt and kickoff return leaders come from the same team.
5.63The league's MVP, not a starter? hahhaaCNTROL::CHILDSNoregia 2 Bush Zip, Nada...Thu Dec 21 1989 14:5811
    
    Well considering that the vote is by the players so you must also be
    well liked too. I was happy to see the guys forgo this usual practice
    and vote Tim Harris in to the bowl this year. Alot of guys don't like
    him but he is one hell of a player.
    
    I was rooooolllliiinnnggg big time watching ESPN when the announcer
    actually suggested that it was a surprise that ankle-biting Jim Everett
    wasn't selected in front of Montana cause of higher individual stats...
    
    mike
5.64GENRAL::GIBSONThu Dec 21 1989 15:005
    
    Hawk,
    That reminds me...Last night I saw a commercial with English, Lever and 
    Adams practically begging the fans to vote for the Nuggets for the All-
    Star game. Unbelievable!
5.65I like the littl{ guy :^)DEC25::MCFALLThese are the DAVES I knowThu Dec 21 1989 15:078
>    Meggett shouldn't go over Gray or Stanley for return yards.  Could
>    be first time punt and kickoff return leaders come from the same team.

	Walt, Meggett may have been selected #1, because he got lots of 
attention in the last couple of weeks, and #2, because he returns both
punts and kickoffs, and is in the top 6 in both...

Jim M
5.66CSC32::SALZERThu Dec 21 1989 15:486
    Just about every year, the selections go out and the qb slots
    change prior to the pro bowl.  Starters and backups decide to
    have their knees or other body parts operated on immediately 
    following the season and replacements show up in their place.
    
    BoB
5.67CAM::WAYRyan tells Eagles Noriega = Zendejas!Thu Dec 21 1989 15:5516
The Pro Bowl/All Star/All-Everything picks are about as useful and fair
as the DEC Excellence Awards.

Take a situation like that guy from Green Bay (Harris?).  Anyway, he's
good.  I've seen him and he's good, but no one likes him.  Therefore
not enough votes.

Personally, the week after the Super Bowl, I'm ready to watch National
Full-Contact Nude Twister instead of more (and *meaningless*) football.

It would make more sense for the NFL to take and spend the money that they
spend sending these guys to Hawaii, on something useful and meaningful,
like putting up some homeless people, or donating it to charity.

Sorry, JMHO,
Chainsaw
5.68Who can fill in the question marksCSCOA5::ROLLINS_RThu Dec 21 1989 16:4756
NFC:

Offense:

WR - Jerry Rice, Sterling Sharpe		John Taylor, Henry Ellard
TE - Keith Jackson				Steve Jordan
OT - Gary Zimmerman, Jackie Slater		?
OG - Randall McDaniel, Tom Newberry		Guy McIntyre
C  - Jay Hilgenberg				Doug Smith
QB - Joe Montana				Don Majkowski
RB - Barry Sanders, Neal Anderson		Roger Craig, ?

Defense :

DE - Chris Doleman, Reggie White		Charles Mann
DT - Keith Millard				Jerry Ball
OLB- Tim Harris, Lawrence Taylor		Kevin Greene
ILB- Mike Singletary, Chris Spielman		Vaughn Johnson
CB - Jerry Fray, Carl Lee			Eric Allen
S  - Joey Browner, Ronnie Lott			Tim McDonald

Special :

P  - Rich Camarillo
K  - Ed Murray
Returns - Dave Meggett
Special Teams - Ron Wolfley


AFC

Offense:

WR - Andre Reed, Webster Slaughter		Anthony Miller, ?
TE - Rodney Holman				?
OT - Anthony Munoz, Chris Hinton		?
OG - Mike Munchak, Bruce Matthews		Max Montoya
C  - Ray Donaldson				?
QB - Warren Moon				Boomer Esiason
RB - Christian Okoye, James Brooks		?, ?

Defense:

DE - Bruce Smith, Lee Williams			Howie Long
DT - Michael Dean Perry				Greg Kragen
OLB- Derrick Thomas, Clay Matthews		Leslie O'Neal
ILB- Larl Mecklenburg, John Offendahl		Shane Conlan
CB - Albert Lewis, Frank Minnifield		Kevin Ross
S  - David Fulcher, Erik McMillan		Dennis Smith

Special :

P  - Reggie Roby
K  - David Treadwell
Returns - Ron Woodson
Special Teams - Rufus Porter
5.69i think i can, i think i canPOGO::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterThu Dec 21 1989 17:0360
                    -< Who can fill in the question marks >-

NFC:

Offense:

WR - Jerry Rice, Sterling Sharpe		John Taylor, Henry Ellard
TE - Keith Jackson				Steve Jordan
OT - Gary Zimmerman, Jackie Slater	      >	LOUIS SHARPE
OG - Randall McDaniel, Tom Newberry		Guy McIntyre
C  - Jay Hilgenberg				Doug Smith
QB - Joe Montana				Don Majkowski
    RB - Barry Sanders, Neal Anderson	      Roger Craig, >DALTON HILLIARD

Defense :

DE - Chris Doleman, Reggie White		Charles Mann
DT - Keith Millard				Jerry Ball
OLB- Tim Harris, Lawrence Taylor		Kevin Greene
ILB- Mike Singletary, Chris Spielman		Vaughn Johnson
CB - Jerry Fray, Carl Lee			Eric Allen
S  - Joey Browner, Ronnie Lott			Tim McDonald

Special :

P  - Rich Camarillo
K  - Ed Murray
Returns - Dave Meggett
Special Teams - Ron Wolfley


AFC

Offense:

WR - Andre Reed, Webster Slaughter	       Anthony Miller,>BRIAN BLADES
TE - Rodney Holman			      > FERRELL EDMUNDS
OT - Anthony Munoz, Chris Hinton	      > TUNCH ILKIN
OG - Mike Munchak, Bruce Matthews		Max Montoya
C  - Ray Donaldson			      > KENT HULL
QB - Warren Moon				Boomer Esiason
    RB - Christian Okoye, James Brooks	     > THURMAN THOMAS,ERIC DICKERSON

Defense:

DE - Bruce Smith, Lee Williams			Howie Long
DT - Michael Dean Perry				Greg Kragen
OLB- Derrick Thomas, Clay Matthews		Leslie O'Neal
ILB- Larl Mecklenburg, John Offendahl		Shane Conlan
CB - Albert Lewis, Frank Minnifield		Kevin Ross
S  - David Fulcher, Erik McMillan		Dennis Smith

Special :

P  - Reggie Roby
K  - David Treadwell
Returns - Ron Woodson
Special Teams - Rufus Porter

    
5.70JULIET::MAY_BRIt's a Jingle out thereThu Dec 21 1989 17:207
    re Everett over Montana:
    
    Did they say Everett had better individual stats than Montana? 
    Which ones?  Not rating, or %, I think Joe has more yards also.
    Everett does have more ints.
    
    Bruce
5.71CLOVE::STEVENSONThu Dec 21 1989 17:486
    It has been a terrible year for the Cowboys, but they do have one
    player who deserves All Pro status and that is MLB Eugene "the Hitting
    Machine" Lockhart.  Has set a new individual club record for tackles
    and currently leads the NFC (maybe the whole NFL) in tackles with some
    170+ tackles to date.  He has played solid all year and deserves the
    recognition.
5.72CNTROL::CHILDSNoregia 2 Bush Zip, Nada...Thu Dec 21 1989 17:565
    
    I believe Bruce that he does have more yardages and they definately 
    said he had more TD's.....
    
    mike
5.73QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceThu Dec 21 1989 18:084
     Lockehart has over 200 tackles.  He should be in the Pro Bowl.
    Really though,  does it mean anything,  I think not !!
    
    Big Game
5.74LT=sniff,sniffUSRCV1::COLOTTIRYou can't milk a BULL!Thu Dec 21 1989 18:2910
    Last week Lockhart went over 200 tackles for the year. Unbelievable.
    Also, Kevin Greene should start over Lawrence Taylor. I'm sick of
    hearing how great LT is. He's not even the best on the Giants anymore.
    Sure he makes the great plays occaisonally, but I've seen him blow
    assignments and be out of position numerous times, he's also lost
    a step. Cocaine will do that to you. Banks and maybe even Reasons
    are more deserving from the Giants, IMO.
    			     Raider_Rich 
    
    
5.75GENRAL::GIBSONThu Dec 21 1989 18:3911
    
    Jack,
    The Pro Bowl might not mean much to the fans but it means an awful lot
    to the players. 1)payed vacation to Hawaii in Jan., 2) extra paycheck,
    3)large bonuses from respective teams in contract incentives, 4)feather
    in the players cap come contract time. In other words, it means a heck
    of a lot of money and pride that their peers chose them as one of the
    best.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.76when healthy still the bestCNTROL::CHILDSNoregia 2 Bush Zip, Nada...Thu Dec 21 1989 18:467
    Raider_Rich, having a broken ankle as LT does might cause one to loose
    a step as you put it. Obviously you didn't see him at the begining of
    the year. The only thing I've ever seen Kevin Greene do is a sack a QB.
    Has he ever caught a back or QB 15 yards downfield as LT does
    regularly?
    
    mike
5.77GENRAL::WADEGive Panama a U.S. Zip Code!Thu Dec 21 1989 18:577
    Mike,
    
    	If LT would make the play at the line of scrimmage, he
    wouldn't have to make the play 15 yards down field.....;^)
    
    Claybone
    
5.78sometimes yes most times noCNTROL::CHILDSNoregia 2 Bush Zip, Nada...Thu Dec 21 1989 19:045
    
    Not necessarily true Claybone when they run away from him most of the
    time, he can't be expected to make the play at the line....
    
    mike
5.79Come Get Your Shirt.... Before I Burn It ;^)QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceThu Dec 21 1989 19:0417
     Hoot,  The Pro Bowl is a joke.......  Just like the All Star Games
    in Baskeball And Baseball.  Yea,  some of the best players get voted 
    in by the other players of fans but are they really the best at their
    respective posistions?  Sometime yes, sometimes no......  Most of the 
    time it is pretty close but some guys that really deserve to go don't
    get to because they play for shitty teams or are just plain not like
    by many other players/fans.  Howie is a perfect example of a player
    who made it to the Pro Bowl on past performance.  Kinda rings of how
    you and Monty keep saying "The Raiders WERE this and the Raiders WERE
    that" don't it.  LT is another that shouldn't have gone but did because
    he has a big name.....    I can think of quite a few that should have
    gone over Howie and LT but didn't for that very *REASONS*....  and you 
    can take that to the *BANKS*.....   Get It !!!
    
    
    
    Big game
5.80I think players and coaches are better judgesLUDWIG::JAMESThu Dec 21 1989 20:169
    For those people saying LT shouldn't make it this year, how many
    Giant games have you watched this year. In week 1, Taylor played
    the best half, I've ever seen a linebacker play. He shut down the
    Redskins on his own. Just before the half, he nearly passed out
    from heat exhaustion. If he could have maintained that level of
    performance throughout the game, the Redskins would have never gotten
    back into it.
    
                                Steve J.
5.81Majkowski? GIVE ME A BREAK!JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Dec 22 1989 12:2456
    Jim Everett is snubbed again this year for a Pro Bowl spot!
    
    Last year, he was the second highest rated QB closely behind a very
    efficient Marc Wilson (mainly because of the receivers, look at his
    fall this year), with the most number of TDs of last season, 31 I
    think.  Yet, Randall Cunningham, the 7th or so rated NFC QB was picked
    with Wilson, I forgot who's the starter.  The reasons: Wilson was the
    highest rated guy and Cunningham was the guy who got most of the press. 
    That seems to be the formula.
    
    This year, even a bigger crime against Everett than last year.  The
    same formula was used once again, of course.  The QB with the highest
    ratings, Joe Montana.  No complaints about him, of course, he is as
    close to God as you can get for playing that position.  He leads the
    league in ratings, efficiencies, TD-INT ratios, etc. etc., even the
    most important W-L column.  He deserves the start.  
    
    But Don Majkowski?  GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
    
    The Green Bay Packers are an exceptional team this year and I hope they
    make the playoffs.  Majkowski is a big part of their success.  But in
    no way can he be picked over Jim Everett.  
    
    Jim Everett this year once again proves that he can be consistently one
    of the league's top QBs, repeating if not surpassing his success last
    year.  Majkowski is just emerging this year, and in no way more
    spectacular than Everett's performances this year or last.  Everett
    once again leads the league in TDs this season, I think 28 so far now
    so if he gets a few more in frigid Foxboro this Sunday he can tie or
    surpass his own mark.  Think about this, leading the league in TDs two
    years in a row and got snubbed at a Pro Bowl spot?  Majokowski has many
    TDs this years as well, but at least 4 or 5 less than Everett so far as
    I recall.  And Majkowski was intercepted more often also.  As for
    ratings, Everett is the second highest rated once again this time only
    behind the immortal Montana.  Majkowski?  Is he 4th or 5th?  And did
    you see Majkowski's passing last week against Kansas City?  Pro Bowl,
    huh?  Talk about leading the team to come from behind, yes, the Packers 
    did that almost all season, but the Rams did that many times as well.  
    Against Dallas.  Against New Orleans.  Against San Francisco.  All 
    magnificent drives by Everett.  Now even Henry Ellard made the Pro Bowl 
    with only half a good season.  In the second half of the season, Willie 
    Anderson picked up if not surpassed Ellard's pace.  Who's behind this?  
    Ellard or Anderson or Cox or else, making it look like there's no 
    difference at all?  
    
    These days, when people talk of the elite (proven) QBs of the league, a
    new name added to the list of Montana, Marino, Kosar, Esiason, Kelly,
    Elway, etc. is who?  Majkowski-who?  It's Everett again.  Give me one 
    good reason why Majkowski is better.
    
    I have one, actually.  He got more press, the surprise Packs, Cardiac
    Packs and all that.  Sure, as a team they deserves a lot of credits but
    individually as far as the Pro Bowl is concerned, Jim Everett is a
    better player.  Just a low key guy getting ignored even in la-la land.
    
    Charles
5.82LEVERS::STROUTknocking on heaven's door...Fri Dec 22 1989 12:3914
    
    	I tend to agree with the Majkowski bit.  It had to do more with
    the fact that Green Bay finally had a winning season and maybe a
    playoff spot.  Majkowksi is a good quaterback, but in my opinion,
    Everett is a great quarterback (coming from a niners fan!).  His
    past two seasons have been exceptional and yet he has been snubbed
    both times.
    	When I look back at this season a couple of years from now I'll
    probably remember it as the season G.B. had a decent record because
    of the fact that they beat the niners, possibly made the playoffs
    and got their qb elected to the pro bowl.  
    	IMO Everett over Majkowki any day..
    
    sean
5.83AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacFri Dec 22 1989 12:439
5.84I don't even watch the stupid thing....QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceFri Dec 22 1989 12:449
     I like Majkowski but I have to agree with .81........  
    Thats why I said that the pro bowl is a joke.  People
    like Howie Long and A few others always seem to get in 
    on past performance. Others like Majkowski make it on
    the sholders of the press.  And some like Everett don't 
    get in when the deserve to.  It's a Joke...........
    
    
    Big Game
5.85CNTROL::CHILDSMerry Christmas EveryoneFri Dec 22 1989 12:477
    
    the reasoning is simple, Maj has more filberts than Everett. Everett
    like Eason will bite the dust at a moment's notice. Everett is blessed
    with possible the best o-line in football. Maj is a man, Everett is not
    and the players vote reflect that....
    
    mike
5.86CSC32::J_HERNANDEZLet's do the time warp again!!Fri Dec 22 1989 12:532
    While Mak is in the pro bowl, Everett will lead his team to a Super
    Bowl victory!!
5.87JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Dec 22 1989 13:1011
    Re:.85
    If painting you face with charcoal and being a MAN and putting that kind 
    of a face and show on would get you into the Pro Bowl, and if the votes 
    are because of that, I would have to say that the guys who voted are 
    pretty dumb.
    
    If you think Everett is not a strong QB under pressure you ought to
    watch him play more often.  And how did Majkowski do against the K.C.
    defense last week anyway?
    
    Charles
5.88I don't want to play for youCNTROL::CHILDSMerry Christmas EveryoneFri Dec 22 1989 13:138
    
    Charles, I agree with ya that the voters are dumb. Half of them
    only have a third grade education. The Rams are a contender with or
    without Everett, the Packers aren't even close without Maj. I guess
    this is what they based their votes on.  Plus Everett suffers from the
    John Elway syndrome....
    
    mike
5.89BTOVT::AJA_MThe Pack is BackFri Dec 22 1989 13:142
 Re:-1  The Pack played the Bears last week and he did very well. He ran
    for TWO Td's and passed for another.
5.90JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Dec 22 1989 13:184
    I said Marc Wilson in .81 but I meant Wade Wilson.  Too much Patriot
    junks I've been hearing here in Mass.
    
    Charles
5.91JULIET::MAY_BRIt's a Jingle out thereFri Dec 22 1989 15:297
    
    There may be another reason why Everett wasn't chosen.  When the
    Rams went through that 4 game losing streak in mid season much of
    the blam was put on Everett's shoulders.  Those 4 games he was not
    very good.
    
    Bruce
5.92CSC32::SALZERFri Dec 22 1989 16:476
    How is it Blades made it?  I have seen him in 3 games this season.
    He made a few good catches but he also droped at least one in each of
    the games I saw. He droped 2 certain TD passes at Denver. Maybe I
    just caught him on the bad games?
    
    BoB
5.93Race for 1st Pick is OverNEXUS::G_MCINTOSHTouch Not The Cat, Bot The GloveTue Dec 26 1989 12:2514
    The race for the first draft pick is over.  The winner is Atlanta.
    Here's the listing:
    
    	Dallas		1-15  No first round pick
    	Atlanta		3-13
    	NY Jets		4-12
    	
    	@ 5-11  NE, Phoenix and TB.  I don't know in what order.
    	@ 6-10  SD and Chicago.  I don't know in what order.
    	@ 7-9   Seattle and Detroit.  I don't know in what order.
    
    Live from Charger Central....
    
    Glenn
5.94*HIC*AJCVAX::COTEAlTue Dec 26 1989 12:392
Patriotsh get the 3rd pick...
5.95Can anyone of them beat San Fran?FRAGLE::MACNEALTue Dec 26 1989 12:4414
    How about that AFC!
    
    Denver takes the AFC West despite losing 4 of their last 5 games.
    
    Cleveland takes the AFC Central by winning their last 2 games (Houston
    blows it by losing their last two).
    
    Stuggling Buffalo manages an AFC East crown.
    
    Two, count them 2, wildcard teams from the AFC Central - and one of
    them is the Pittsburgh Steelers who started off the year looking like
    the Dallas Cowboys.
    
    The 1988 AFC Champ did not make the playoffs.
5.96CorrectionCSC32::G_MCINTOSHTouch Not The Cat, Bot The GloveTue Dec 26 1989 13:348
    Re -1:
    
    Correction....Denver takes the AFC West despite losing 3 of their last
    4 games.  (Not 4 of 5).
    
    Live from Charger Central....
    
    Glenn
5.97FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Tue Dec 26 1989 17:2512
    The NFC beat the AFC this year in head-to-head games, 28-24.  The
    series was tied 23-23 going into the weekend with 6 interconference
    games, and the Rams, Giants, Redskins, Saints and Vikings all won.
    Pittsburgh was the only AFC team to beat an NFC team last weekend.
    
    RE:  Many notes back - KC played Miami twice this year and Green
    Bay played Dallas twice this year because these were the last place
    teams in 5-team divisions.  KC played GB once and Dallas once, Miami
    played Dallas once and GB once.  Next year, the Jets play San Diego
    twice and the Bucs play the Cowboys twice.
    
    John
5.98Draft OrderSALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAINWed Dec 27 1989 10:2823
   Here's the order for the April 22-23 NFL Draft:
1.x Dallas		15. K.C.
2. Atlanta		16. New Orleans
3. N.Y. Jets		17. Buffalo
4.y Phoenix		18. Pittsburgh
5. New England		19. Houston
6. Tampa Bay		20. Green Bay (Cleve.)
7. San Diego		21. Green Bay
8. Chicago		22. Atlanta (Wash.)
9. Detroit		23. Minnesota
10. Seattle		24. L.A. Rams
11. Miami		25. Philadelphia
12. Seattle (Ind.)	26.z Denver
13. L.A. Raiders	27. N.Y. Giants
14. Cincimmati		28. San. Fran.

x-Selected Steve Walsh in Supp. Draft
y-Selected Tim Rosenbach"  "     "
z-Selected Bobby Humphrey  "     "

    Looks good for the Pats, they have the 3rd pick, but in reality it's really
the 2nd considering the Jest pick ahead of them!
                                 Denny	
5.99Sack Leaders in AFCCSC32::G_MCINTOSHTouch Not The Cat, Bot The GloveWed Dec 27 1989 11:1817
    Correction on sack leaders in AFC:
    
    	1.  Lee Williams, SD 	14 sacks
    	2.  Bruce Smith, Buff	13 sacks
    	3.  Leslie O'Neal SD	12.5 sacks
    	4.  Simon Fletcher, Den	12 sacks
    	5.  Porter, Sea		10.5 sacks
    	    Townsend, Raid	10.5 sacks
    	6.  Grossman, SD	10 sacks
    	    Cross, Mia		10 sacks
    	    Hand, Ind		10 sacks
    	    Thomas, KC  	10 sacks
    	7.  Holmes, Den		 9 sacks
    
    Live from Charger Central....
    
    Glenn
5.100BO knows $$$$$$!!CRUISE::JBONINJohn Bonin, U.S. Data Warehouse DBAWed Dec 27 1989 12:037
    Hasn't anyone heard the latest BO rumor? KC Royals have offered
    him something like 20 MILLION!! over 5 or 6 years to play BASEBALL,
    and leave his football hobby alone. Is that true?
    
    
    
    John
5.101real athlete vs. ?LEVERS::STROUTknocking on heaven's door...Wed Dec 27 1989 12:065
    
    	yeah, those stupid baseball jerks know that football is a real
    sport and bo might get injured.  i hope bo tells them where to go.
    
    sean
5.102Keep dreamin....SALEM::DODATakin' Care of Christmas...Wed Dec 27 1989 12:090
5.103zFXNBS::CASOWed Dec 27 1989 12:162
    
    I heard something like 5 years 15mill to play just baseball
5.104Bo knows 0-4 on Opening Day 1990 ~/~STAR::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasWed Dec 27 1989 12:187
    re .100:
    
    I have heard talk that the Royals are going to make Bo the offer you
    described, can't confirm if the offer has actually been made yet.
    
    
    py 
5.105POGO::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterWed Dec 27 1989 12:4047
    			FINAL 1989 INDIVIDUAL LEADERS
    
    AFC Quarterbacks			NFC Quarterbacks
    
    		   ATT COM YDs  TD INT                  ATT COM YDs  TD INT
    Esiason, Cin   455 258 3525 28 11 	Montana, SF  	386 271 3521 26  8
    Moon, Hou	   464 280 3631 23 14	Everett, Rams	518 304 4310 29 17
    Kelly, Buff	   391 228 3130 25 18	Rypien, Wash	476 280 3768 22 13
    Kosar, Clev	   513 303 3533 18 14 	Hebert, NO	353 222 2686 15 15
    Marino, Mia	   550 308 3997 24 22	Majkowski, GB	599 353 4318 27 20
    DeBerg, KC	   324 196 2529 11 16	Simms, Giants	405 228 3061 14 14
    Krieg, Sea	   499 286 3309 21 20	Miller, Atl	526 280 3459 16 10
    O'Brien, Jets  477 288 3346 12 18	Cnghm, Phil	532 290 3400 21 15
    Elway, Denver  416 223 3051 18 18	Wilson, Minn	362 194 2543  9 12
    McMahon, SD	   318 176 2132 10 10	Hgbm, Phoe	364 204 2591 14 19
    
    
    AFC Rushers				NFC Rushers
    		   ATT YDs  AVG LG TD			ATT YDs  AVG LG TD
    Okoye, KC	   370 1480 4.0 59 12	B.Sanders, Det	280 1470 5.3 34 14
    Dickerson, Ind 314 1311 4.2 21  7	Anderson, Chi	274 1275 4.7 73 11
    Thomas, Buff   298 1244 4.2 38  6	Hilliard, NO	344 1262 3.7 40 13
    Brooks, Cin	   221 1239 5.6 65  7	Bell, Rams	272 1137 4.2 47 15
    Hphry, Den	   294 1151 3.9 40  7	Craig, SF	271 1054 3.9 27  6
    Jckson, Raid   173  950 5.5 92  4	Andrson, Giants	325 1023 3.1 36 14
    Stephens, NE   244  833 3.4 35  7	Wkr, Dll-Mnn	250  915 3.7 47  7
    Worley, Pitt   195  770 3.9 38  5	Riggs, Wash	201  834 4.1 58  4
    Hector, Jets   177  702 4.0 24  3	Fullwood, GB	204  821 4.0 38  5
    Butts, SD	   170  683 4.0 50  9	Settle, Atl	179  689 3.8 20  3
    
    
    AFC Receivers			NFC Receivers
    		   NO YDs  AVG  LG TD			NO YDs  AVG  LG TD
    Reed, Buff	   88 1312 14.9 78  9 	Sharpe, GB	90 1423 15.8 79 12
    Blades, Sea	   77 1063 13.8 60  5	Carrier, TB	86 1422 16.5 78  9
    Johnson, Den   76 1095 14.4 69  7	Monk, Wash	86 1186 13.8 60  8
    Williams, Sea  76  657  8.6 51  6	Rice, SF	82 1483 18.1 68 17
    A. Miller, SD  75 1252 16.7 69 10	Sanders, Wash	80 1138 14.2 68  4
    Hill, Hou	   66  938 14.2 50  8	Clark, Wash	79 1229 15.6 80  9
    Slaughter, Cle 65 1236 19.0 97  6	Rathman, SF	73  616  8.4 36  1
    McGee, Cin	   65 1211 18.6 74  8	Ellard, Rams	70 1382 19.7 53  8
    Clayton, Mia   64 1011 15.8 78  9	R.Johnson, Det	70 1091 15.6 75  8
    Brooks, Ind	   63  919 14.6 55  4	E.Martin, NO	68 1090 16.0 53  8
    Toon, Jets	   63  693 11.0 37  2	Byars, Phil	68  721 10.6 60  0
    
    
    
5.106AJCVAX::COTEAlWed Dec 27 1989 12:423
Bo has said he'll give up football to concentrate on baseball. But he doesn't
know when yet. $4million or so per year might give him an inkling.
5.107COOKIE::MJOHNSTONHell, the fall'll probly kill ya!Wed Dec 27 1989 13:436
	Anybody heard any word yet as to whether or not there will be a
supplemental draft this (next?) year? There are quite a few talented juniors
out there that could probably start in the NFL.

Mike JN
5.108Bo knows John Derek39131::DHAMELIs Nothing Sacred?Wed Dec 27 1989 13:591
    
5.109YesFSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Dec 27 1989 14:314
    There will be a supplemental draft if anyone becomes eligible to
    be drafted between the regular draft and the start of the preseason.
    
    John
5.110Next year will tell if the Pack is really backJULIET::MAY_BRIt's a Jingle out thereWed Dec 27 1989 14:526
    
    I didn't realige that GB had played Dallas twice.  Combine that
    with their playing in the weakest division in the NFC and their
    record doesn't quite so good.
    
    Bruce
5.111LEVERS::STROUTknocking on heaven's door...Wed Dec 27 1989 16:1911
    
    	what a joke.  i just saw the ad for the miller lite player of
    the year:
    
    	Randall Cunningham, Boomer Esiason, Jim Kelly, Don Majkowski,
    Joe Montana, Christian Okoye
    
    	Jim Kelly?????  Player of the Year??  please tell me this is
    a joke.
    
    sean
5.112If ain't Montana, then it's ballot stuffing for sure...CNTROL::CHILDSJihad confirms, Mathis gets bonusWed Dec 27 1989 16:307
    
    no joke. alls one has to do is be player of the week once to qualify.
    Kelly before his injury was the AFC's leading QB by the ratings and
    by TD tosses....Some people do remember the begining of the year when
    they consider these awards....
    
    mike
5.113Either way, no arguement here.SALEM::DODATakin' Care of Christmas...Wed Dec 27 1989 17:043
Between Montana and Majic, flip it.

daryll
5.114Montana in a landsliiiiiideMSBIS2::ROBINSONbrash boy wonderWed Dec 27 1989 19:091
    
5.115AP ALL-PRO TEAMPOGO::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterThu Dec 28 1989 11:2557
    			AP ALL-PRO TEAM
    
    1st Team-Offense:
    
    WR-Jerry Rice, SF		Sterling Sharpe, GB
    TE-Keith Jackson,Ph
     T-Anthony Munoz, Cin	Jim Lachey, Wash
     G-Tom Newberry, Rams	Bruce Matthews, Hou
     C-Jay Hilgenberg, Chi
    QB-Joe Montana, SF
    RB-Christian Okoye, KC	Barry Sanders, Det
    
    
    1st Team-Defense:
    
     E-Chris Doleman, Min	Reggie White, Phil
    NT-Michael Dean Perry, Cle
    DT-Keith Millard, Minn
    OL-Tim Harris,GB		Lawrence Taylor, Gia
    IL-Mike Singletary, Chi	Karl Mecklenburg, Den
    CB-Eric Allen, Phil 	Albert Lewis, KC
     S-David Fulcher, Cin	Ronnie Lott, SF
    
    Specialists:
    
    Punter-Sean Landeta, Giants
    Place-kicker-Mike Cofer, SF
    Kick returner-Rod Woodson, Pitt
    
    
    2nd Team-Offense:
    
    WR-Andre Reed, Buf		Webster Slaughter, Clev
    TE-Rodney Holman, Cin
     T-Jackie Slater, Rams	Chris Hinton, Ind
     G-Mike Munchak, Hou	Max Montoya, Cin
     C-Kent Hull, Buf
    QB-Don Majkowski, GB
    RB-Thurman Thomas, Buf	Dalton Hilliard, NO
    
    
    2nd Team-Defense:
    
     E-Bruce Smith, Buf		Lee Williams, SD
    NT-Tony Casillas, Atl
    DT-Ray Childress, Hou
    OL-Pat Swilling, NO		Kevin Greene, Rams
    IL-Eugene Lockhart, Dal	Vaughan Johnson, NO
    CB-Jerry Gray, Rams		Frank Minnifield, Cle
     S-Dennis Smith, Den	Joey Browner, Minn
    
    Specialists:
    
    Punter-Rich Camarillo, Pho
    Place-kicker-Ed Murray, Det
    Kick returner-John Taylor, SF
                     
5.116AJCVAX::COTEAlThu Dec 28 1989 11:254
>> -< Montana in a landsliiiiiide >-

What a terrible shame. How bad was he hurt? 

5.117someone noticedHPSRAD::SANTOSA monster is being built.Thu Dec 28 1989 11:386
    Glad to see Eugene Lockhart made at least the AP second team defense.
    He had an amazing year stopping the run with over 200 tackles and
    also played on the passing defense. He's become a complete LB.

    Chuck
5.118why Gus?MSBIS2::ROBINSONbrash boy wonderThu Dec 28 1989 14:415
    
    	I can't believe that Majkowski got the nod for 2nd team
    	all-pro over Boomer Esiason, Warren Moon, and Jim Everett. 
    
    	He had a great year, but the other guys were better.
5.119SALEM::DODATakin' Care of Christmas...Thu Dec 28 1989 15:335
Jeff,

Are you serious?

daryll
5.120OURGNG::J_WARDLECome with me to the CashBahThu Dec 28 1989 15:415
    Majkowski deserved it over Esiason, Moon and Everett....
    
    How could you think otherwise?
    
    JoJ
5.122He's becoming a great oneMUSKIE::WIERSBECKAll is quiet on New Years DayThu Dec 28 1989 16:0314
    Boomer had the best game any QB did against the Vikes this year,
    but I also like Majkowski.  I had the chance to see him several
    times and he was the main difference in the Packers resurgence.
    That team was 4-12 last year and wasn't expect to improve much this
    year.  Majkowski had some great games this year against the Niners,
    Rams, Vikes (once).  You put a Lynn Dickey or whoever the Pack has
    used during the 80's on this years team and they probably go 6-10
    at best.  
    
    I don't like the Pack, but this guy is an exciting, winning player
    and deserves the nomination.
    
    
    Spud
5.123Getting that Citrus gameface onSHALOT::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Thu Dec 28 1989 22:537
    Not to mention, of course, that Don Majkowski was a Virginia Cavalier.
    
    Hey, admit it, you'd have been disappointed if I didn't say it.
    
    Go Wahoos.  Send the Illini packing ...
    
    Bob Hunt
5.124JULIET::MAY_BRIt's a Jingle out thereFri Dec 29 1989 15:0641
    Courtesy of SF Comical.  I tried to put in the records of teams
    that have supporters in here.  If I missed one, I'll put it in if
    I can find time.
    
    TEAMS OF THE DECADE
                    
    Team   W   L   %    POR*  YIP*  CT*  SB
                        
    SF     104 47  .688 10-4   8    3    3
    Wash   97  55  .638 11-3   5    3    2
    Miami  94  57  .622  6-5   5    2    0
    Denver 93  58  .615  4-4   5    2    0
    Chic   92  60  .605  5-4   5    1    1
    Raider 89  63  .586  8-3   5    2    2
    Rams   86  66  .566  2-6   7    0    0
    Cleve  83  68  .549  2-6   7    0    0
    Giants 81  70  .536  6-3   5    1    1
    Cinn   81  71  .533  4-3   3    2    0
    Dallas 79  73  .520  5-5   5    0    0
    Sea.   78  74  .513  3-4   4    0    0
    N.E.   78  74  .513  3-3   3    1    0
    Minn   77  75  .507  4-4   4    0    0
    Pitt   77  75  .507  1-3   4    0    0
    Phil   76  74  .507  2-3   4    1    0
    Jets   73  77  .487  3-4   4    0    0
    SD     72  80  .474  3-3   3    0    0
    Buff   69  83  .454  2-3   4    0    0
    NO     67  85  .441  0-1   1    0    0
    KC     66  84  .441  0-1   1    0    0
    GB     65  84  .438  1-1   1    0    0
    Phoe.  62  88  .414  0-1   1    0    0
    Hous.  62  90  .408  2-3   1    0    0
    Det.   61  90  .405  0-2   2    0    0
    Atl.   57  94  .378  0-2   2    0    0
    Ind.   54  97  .359  0-1   1    0    0
    TB     45  106 .299  0-2   2    0    0
    
    *POR= playoff record
     CT = conference titles
     SB = superbowl victories    
                    
5.125STAR::YANKOWSKASOrioles in 1990Fri Dec 29 1989 15:5914
    the clowns suck no the jackasses suck ARF ARF ah shuddup you girly mon
    the midgets suck oh yeah the afc is a wimp conference BLAM BLAM hey you
    wanna talk a girly mon conference how come the big ten has only won
    eight rose bowls in the last nine gazillion tries ARF ARF ARF reeves
    should have been coach of the year no joe walton should have got it to
    win even one game with that jets team was a miracle oh yeah chuck noll
    shoulda been coach of the year who else could have made the playoffs
    with a qb named bubby BLAM BLAM sez you pittsbooger sucks oh yeah
    howscum sucks worse BARF BARF BARF bernie kosar is you no who parade in
    lake erie well that's a crock BLAM BLAM every one knows john elway is
    athlete of the decade and on and on the banter goes and when it'll end
    nobody knows probably with the two or three 49ers fans in here letting
    the final results speak for themselves... 

5.126LUDWIG::WHITEHAIRFri Dec 29 1989 16:024
    
    Nice!
    
    		real nice...
5.127So Whats Your PointQUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceFri Dec 29 1989 16:025
    Good one !
    
    	That just got you a nomination for "Junk Noter Of The Year"
    
    Big Game
5.129point...we don't need no stinkin' point :-)STAR::YANKOWSKASOrioles in 1990Fri Dec 29 1989 16:045
    Sorry, couldn't resist doing one junk note in here before the decade
    comes to an end...happy 1990 everyone!
    
    
    Paul
5.130Good analysis, Paul. You summed it all up.VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye.&quot;Fri Dec 29 1989 16:200
5.131JULIET::MAY_BRIt's a Jingle out thereFri Dec 29 1989 16:295
    
    Paul Yankowhatever reduced to junknoting.  What's next?  Wierd things
    must happen on the last work day of the year.    Go Broncos!
    
    Bruce
5.132Can I bring this guy to Tahoe with me?JULIET::MAY_BRIt's a Jingle out thereFri Dec 29 1989 17:188
    
    Just read an article in the paper that amazed me, and should amaze
    the rest of the handicappers in here.  Some guy has correctly picked
    all 14 winners in Oregon's NFL lottery- on *two* seperate weeks.
    He has also picked 10 correct teams 3 times.  Yes, they do bet against
    the LAs Vegas lines.
    
    Bruce
5.13380s standings: Teams, Rushing, Passing, Receiving, TD catchesJUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokTue Jan 02 1990 11:47115
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!sun-barr!apple!voder!pyramid!unify!csusac!ucdavis!iris!snapp
From: snapp@iris.ucdavis.edu (Steven R. Snapp)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: NFL - The 80's
Message-ID: <6342@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>
Date: 2 Jan 90 08:19:09 GMT
Sender: uucp@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu
Reply-To: snapp@iris.ucdavis.edu (Steven R. Snapp)
Distribution: na
Organization: U.C. Davis
Lines: 103
 
 
Happy New Year football fans!  I imagine you have all seen
something like this in your local newspapers, but I decided
to post it anyway.
 
The following are the regular season results for the 1980's
for standings, rushing, passing, receiving and TD catches.
This list appeared in 'The Sacramento Bee' on 12/31/89.
 
It is fairly long, so hit 'n' now if you don't care to read
all of this stuff.
 

 
 
STANDINGS
=========
Team		W-L-T		Pct.		GB
----		-----		----		--
49ers	       104-47-1		.689		 -
Redskins	97-55-0		.638		 7.5
Dolphins	94-57-1		.623		10
Broncos		93-58-1		.616		11
Bears		92-60-0		.605		12.5
Raiders		89-63-0		.586		15.5
Rams		87-65-0		.572		17.5
Browns		83-68-1		.550		21
Giants		81-70-1		.536		23
Bengals		81-71-0		.533		23.5
Cowboys		79-73-0		.520		25.5
Patriots	78-74-0		.513		26.5
Seahawks	78-74-0		.513		26.5
Eagles		76-74-2		.507		27.5
Vikings		77-75-0		.507		27.5
Steelers	77-75-0		.507		27.5
Jets		73-77-2		.487		30.5
Chargers	72-80-0		.474		32.5
Bills		68-84-0		.447		26.5
Saints		67-85-0		.441		37.5
Chiefs		66-84-2		.440		37.5
Packers		65-84-3		.436		38
Cardinals	62-88-2		.413		41.5
Oilers		62-90-0		.408		42.5
Lions		61-90-1		.404		43
Falcons		57-94-1		.377		47
Colts		54-97-1		.358		50
Bucs		45-106-1	.298		59
 
STATISTICS
==========
Rushing
-------
Player		Att.		Yds.		Avg.	TD
------		----		----		----	--
Dickerson	2,450	       11,226		4.6	82
Payton		2,290		9,800		4.3	51
Dorsett		2,188		9,300		4.3	52
Riggs		1,788		7,465		4.2	52
Allen		1,781		7,275		4.2	52
McNeil		1,605		7,146		4.5	30
Warner		1,649		6,705		4.1	55
Craig		1,545		6,625		4.3	41
Brooks		1,320		6,343		4.8	42
Campbell	1,517		6,260		4.1	42
 
Passing
-------
Player		Pct.		 Yds.		TD	Int.
------		----		 ----		--	----
Montana		.639		30,058		215	107
Fouts		.599		28,301		172	141
Marino		.596		27,853		220	125
Simms		.541		26,235		156	137
Kramer		.551		24,775		159	157
Lomax		.576		22,771		136	 90
White		.599		21,229		152	126
Elway		.542		21,195		120	114
Kreig		.578		20,858		169	116
Esiason		.564		18,350		126	 76
 
Receiving
---------
Player		No.		Yds.		Avg.	TD
------		---		----		----	--
Monk		662		9,165		13.8	47
Largent		593		9,336		15.7	69
Newsome		546		6,360		11.6	34
Winslow		516		6,486		12.6	43
Lofton		499		9,299		18.6	44
D. Clark	488		6,518		13.4	48
Craig		483		4,241		 8.8	16
Green		468		7,684		16.4	62
Chandler	459		7,425		16.2	48
Morgan		435		8,087		18.6	47
 
Touchdown Catches
-----------------
Player		No.
------		---
Largent		69
Rice		66
Clayton		63
Green		62
5.134SHANE::PACIELLOTue Jan 02 1990 12:5415
Being a big Marino fan, I did find it interesting to note that Marino played
two full season's less than Fouts and 3 full seasons less than Montana, thus
acounting  for 1 full season worth of total passing yardage (vs Montana)
and about 1 1/2 games worth of total passing yardage (vs Fouts) during the
'80s.....Not to mention the fact that he has outthrown both in TD's...

One other minor trivia note...Officially, the decade of the 80's does not
end until December 31, 1990 (a decade runs from 1-10, not 0-9). Officially,
Marino has one more season to pass Fouts...And I wonder how it would affect
Montana's stats...

(Picky, true, but I'd still rather have Marino over Montana..)


-Mike
5.135CAM::WAYAnd The Wall came tumblin' down...Tue Jan 02 1990 14:4717
>    Paul Yankowhatever reduced to junknoting.  What's next?  Wierd things
>    must happen on the last work day of the year.    Go Broncos!
>    
>    Bruce


What's next, 'Quake?

Well, I was on VC last week, so I didn't have a chance to tell you
*my* New Year's resolution...

You heard it here first....NO MORE JUNK NOTING FOR THE CHAINSAW


read it and weep, Doug ;^) 8^) 8^)

'Saw
5.136JULIET::MAY_BRTue Jan 02 1990 15:475
    Did anyone stick around long enough in .133 to see Largent had 3
    more TD's than Rice?  That is in 5 more years plus one that Rice
    wasn't a starter.
    
    Bruce
5.137I realize you're not knocking SteveCNTROL::CHILDSHoltz runs up 25K phone bill with ABCTue Jan 02 1990 15:538
    
    Yeah but Bruce looks who's been on the other end of the TD's.... ;^)
    
    Of course Rice will break his record someday but considering the
    obvious physical gifts Rice has, Largent's accomplishments should
    not be taken lightly....
    
    mike
5.138Boomer no show for pro bowlAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacTue Jan 02 1990 16:025
    Boomer Esaison is not going to the Pro Bowl.  He considers the game as
    open season on QB's and will not risk injury by playing for the AFC. 
    He claims that the defensive lineman are just waiting to tee off on a
    QB and that he can't trust a line that he has not played/practiced
    with.
5.139poor babyTACKLE::STROUTknocking on heaven's door...Tue Jan 02 1990 16:031
    
5.140MONEY=MONTANAOAW::GORDNERThompson to Uribe to ClarkTue Jan 02 1990 20:5912
    RE. .134
    
    You would rather have Marino over Montana.
    
    The stat you seemed to miss was TDs to INTs. Montana was the only QB
    on the list with TWICE as many TDs as INTs. The turnover seems to be
    the deciding factor in almost any BIG game. For his accurracy and his
    ability not to throw INTs in big games I choose Montana.
    
    P.S. Montana has not thrown a single INT in three Superbowls.
    
    Randy
5.141MUSKIE::WIERSBECKAll is quiet on New Years DayWed Jan 03 1990 11:245
    Heard this morning that Montana was named league MVP.  Majkowski
    came in second and Millard third.
    
    
    Spud
5.142AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacWed Jan 03 1990 12:291
    Montana was also named offensive player of the year.
5.143BSS::RIGGENCo Sports teams= BridesmaidsWed Jan 03 1990 12:323
    Green bay head coach Lindy Infante was also the NFL CoTY. 
    
    
5.144is this true or did I mis-understand the report?HPSRAD::SANTOSA monster is being built.Mon Jan 08 1990 15:565
     I think I heard at lunch time that Joe Robbie the owner of the 
     Miami Dolphins died.

    Chuck
5.146CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinMon Jan 08 1990 16:286
Yes, it is true.

Joe Robbie died at age 73...  They didn't give the cause on the
radio (heard it on my way to work...)

Chainsaw
5.147AXIS::ROBICHAUDGo 49ers!Mon Jan 08 1990 16:288
    	Steven, Bob Ryan doesn't cover the Patriots.  He was the beat
    writer for the Celtics, and back in the mid 70's the Red Sox.  He
    now does a column for the paper.  I don't know about his knowledge
    of football, but at the time of the Patriots drug scandal the football
    writers for the Globe were Will McDonough and Ron Borges.  I forgot
    how funny Howard could be.  He was a very entertaining sportscaster.
    
    				/Don
5.148Need More TRUTH In Sports ReportingSHALOT::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Mon Jan 08 1990 16:4620
    Joe Robbie died after a "long illness", whatever that means.
    
    I, too, saw the ESPN Sports Reporters show on Sunday.  I've blasted
    Bill Conlin of the Philly Daily News before because of his role in
    silencing Steve Carlton and bad-mouthing Mike Schmidt.   He still has
    nothing new to add.
    
    Cosell was wonderful.  I'd forgotten how much we miss him.  You can
    criticize his style all you want but the man is a true intellectual and
    he's a purist as well.   The "tell it like it is" style is wonderfully
    refreshing.
    
    I loved the story he told about the educator who turned down a high
    post at Miami in favor of one at NYU.  Apparently, the job description
    at Miami was to make the school #1 in both football and basketball.
    
    The "National Fantasy League".  Have to remember that line.  It's a
    good one.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.149He overstates his role in everything, but he did participateHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERSome folks trust in reasonMon Jan 08 1990 17:0013
    I recently read "I Never Played the Game", Howard Cosell's latest
    autobiography (thanks, Jim.  Want it back?).  While it was at times
    exasperating for the huge ego, I found a lot of interesting items in
    it.  Leave it to say that Howard claims to practically have invented
    Sports Journalism and excelled in it, and he makes a decent case for
    himself.  Some of the more interesting chapters (if not for the way
    theiy are told) is that of the NFL and allowing franchises to move and
    the one on Ray Leonard.
    
    I found out Howard was going to be on the Sports Reporters too late. 
    Can anyone tell me what was discussed?
    
    Dan
5.150AXIS::ROBICHAUDGo 49ers!Mon Jan 08 1990 17:0911
================================================================================
Note 5.149                     Official NFL topic                     149 of 149
HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Some folks trust in reason"       13 lines   8-JAN-1990 14:00
       -< He overstates his role in everything, but he did participate >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   I found out Howard was going to be on the Sports Reporters too late. 
>   Can anyone tell me what was discussed?
    
>   Dan

	Howard Cosell was the main topic of discussion.
5.151He was 81SALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAINTue Jan 09 1990 10:247
       Bronko Nagurski Also died over the weekend. Somebody had a good
    story about him yesterday: It seems he was running for a TD, he
    broke a couple of tackles, bounced off a goal post and ran right
    through the endzone into a wall. After the game when they asked
    him about the score he said: "It was a pretty good run, but that
    last guy hit me pretty hard!"
                                       denny
5.152CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinTue Jan 09 1990 10:4211
Only person ever to be voted all-American at two positions.

He played fullback AND tackle for the University of Minnesota, I believe
he was voted All-American in 1929.  He was also a charter member of
the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Who will ever forget the name or the man?

RIP Bronco...

Chainsaw
5.153QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceTue Jan 09 1990 11:0911
     Bronko was great.....   May he RIP.
    
     Now,  I have a question that speaking of Bronko has reminded me
    of.  A few years back I was watching some "NFL Films" show and
    they had this oldtimer on there that they were show films of.
    It seems this guy was on Defense and proceeded to knock the whole
    offensive back field out of the game.  He had this real funny 
    style of hitting.  Anyone know who I'm talking about  ?
    
    Big Game
    
5.154EARRTH::BROOKSIf you think this was bad ...Tue Jan 09 1990 11:2111
    I wonder if that was the legendary Hardy Brown of the 49ers. He
    was a linebacker in the 50's who knew how to sort of cock his shoulder
    and then release it for maximum impact. I'd heard stories about
    the guy hitting one player so hard, the victim's eye almost came
    out of his socket (no exaggeration) ! I saw an NFL film where he
    almost dismembered this guy with one hit. Damn !
    
    BTW, if you get a chance, rent or buy "Crunch Course" from a video
    store. After watching that, I was ready to tackle a bus !
    
    DrM
5.155Tough hombreMILPND::VLASAKRoad WarriorTue Jan 09 1990 11:288
    
    My father talked to a man who claimed to have played against Bronco.
    
    According to him, Bronco chewed tobacco while he was playing and would
    spit tobacco juice into the eyes of the guy trying to tackle him!
    
    Bob V.
    
5.156LOGOFF::BACHOnward through the fog...Tue Jan 09 1990 11:595
    the Bears could have used "The Bronk" this year.
    
    (I guess that should read "last season" for any Bear fans.)
    
    Chip
5.157COOKIE::MJOHNSTONHell, the fall'll probly kill ya!Wed Jan 10 1990 15:408
Legend has it that the way the Bronk was discovered:

	Football dude is driving thru Minnesota in this rural area. He spots
this big kid out plowing a field.... without a horse. He stops and asks the kid
directions, and the kid picks up the plow with one hand and points. So he
signed Bronko Nagurski on the spot.

Mike JN
5.158CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinWed Jan 10 1990 15:4416
They showed a clip on the news last night of this phenomenal run
by Nagurski.  Check this out.

He lines up in what appeared to be the single wing.  He took the
snap, shotgun style, just as he came out of his three point stance.
The QB was fading back, trying to fool the defensive line, I guess.

Any way, Bronko busts through the line, and heads upfield.  Gets
by one guy with a cut, and this guy dives at his knees to tackle
him, and (no flies here) just BOUNCES off... Bronko rambles
to the sidelines and onto what one assumes is a TD, but they cut
the clip at that point....

I was impressed....

Chainsaw
5.159QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceWed Jan 10 1990 15:485
    Re: Midnight
    
     I think that was the guy.....  He was absolutely amazing !!
    
    Big game
5.160Great nameSHALOT::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Wed Jan 10 1990 15:5211
    Not to mention that Bronko Nagurski is probably the all-time best NAME
    for a football player.
    
    I mean just his name alone reeks of toughness.
    
    Can you imagine Truman Capote the fullback ???  Or Phil Donahue the
    midlde linebacker ???  Or Richard Simmons the right guard ???
    
    Nah ...
    
    Bob Hunt
5.161CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinWed Jan 10 1990 16:039
The name game....

	Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke, Tommy Nobis, Otis Sistrunk...

all manly names, for manly football players.

Anyone know any more?

How bout some girly-mon names....
5.162COOKIE::MJOHNSTONHell, the fall'll probly kill ya!Wed Jan 10 1990 16:1215
Bronko played running back on offense, and linebacker on Defense. He was 235
pounds, which back in the 30's was pretty substantial weight for a footballer
(in fact, it's pretty damned good today for those positions).

Ernie Nevers said when Bronko ran with the ball it was awesome, and that one
person could NOT bring him down. He said if you hit him low he would just run
right over you, and if you hit him high, he would knock you down and THEN run
over you.

Red Grange said Bronko was just as incredible on the other side of the ball.
Red  was a pretty fair ball carrier himself, but he said running into Bronko
was like running into a brick wall. You just stopped... Wham!.. and that was
it.

Mike JN
5.164COOKIE::MJOHNSTONHell, the fall'll probly kill ya!Wed Jan 10 1990 16:2923
Bubba Smith
Vern Denhurter
Mike Ditka
Conrad Dobler
Webster Slaughter
Hacksaw Reynolds
Snake Stabler
Assassin Tatum
Mean Joe Green

Girly mon names:

Rosie Grier
Berni Kosar
Toni Eason 
Phyllis Simms
Joy Montana
Flutie
Bambi
Cornelius
Claudie
Lavelle
Merlin
5.165More names ...SHALOT::HUNTFrom the young man in the 22nd row ...Wed Jan 10 1990 16:3812
    Some more great football names ...
    
    Chuck Bednarik, Knute Rockne, Roman Gabriel, Bill Bergey, John Riggens,
    Sid Luckman, ...
    
    Some wimpy names ...  Remember, it's just the names that are wimpy.
    
    Gayle Sayers, Duane Thomas, Raymond Clayborn, Seth Joyner, Irv Pankey,
    Percy Snow (now *there's* a wimpy name), and any kicker especially
    Morten Andersen.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.166Steve StonebreakerAXIS::ROBICHAUDGo 49ers!Wed Jan 10 1990 16:391
    
5.167Boobie Clark!SASE::SZABOButt, Iris!Wed Jan 10 1990 16:511
    
5.168CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinWed Jan 10 1990 16:556
It's good that you noted just the names were girly-mon...

Merlin Olsen, Rosie Grier...a couple of the more manly players
with girly-mon names!  
    

5.169Frank Way, Now Thats a Girly Mon Name !QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceWed Jan 10 1990 17:101
    
5.170Golden Richards, girly all the wayHPSRAD::SANTOSA monster is being built.Wed Jan 10 1990 17:180
5.171Who wore the "pants" in this marriage?SASE::SZABOJoined P_Names AnonymousWed Jan 10 1990 17:241
    		Lance Rentzell and Joey Heatherton.
5.172JUPITR::PARTEECharlie -- Lemieux est le mieuxWed Jan 10 1990 17:377
    
    
    Switching briefly to hockey, Murray Craven is possibly the
    worst name for a pro athlete ever!
    
    
    Charlie
5.173GENRAL::WADEDriving out of Darlington County.....Wed Jan 10 1990 17:457
    Steven!  "Clay" is not a girly-mon name!!!!
    
    My choice for most girly-mon would be Dick Buttkiss (sp?)  ;^)
    Bob Lilly comes to mind too..........
    
    Claybone
    
5.175EGYPT::CRITZGreg LeMond - Sportsman of the YearWed Jan 10 1990 18:057
    	Tough name:
    
    		Titensor (tight n sore)
    
    	Funny name:
    
    		Flipper Anderson
5.176RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOA hard rain is gonna fallWed Jan 10 1990 18:077
    Manly names:  Richard DENT, Sam HUFF, Jim Katcavage, Sonny Sixkiller,
    Bubba Paris, 
    
    Girly-mon names:  Nesby Glasgow, Yale Lary, Steve VanBueran, Marv
    Hubbard, Deacon Jones, Jack Ham, Andy Russel, Eddie Murray, 
    
    JD
5.177No it ain't Big Game 8^) (sheesh yur testy this week...)CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinTue Jan 09 1990 16:4913
Gee Bud, what's Flipper trying to tell us?

I'm not sure, I think he's trying to say that White Shark down there
interfered with him.

Gee Bud, do you think we should follow him?

Sure Sandy, let's go...I'm sure we'll find him in Davey Jones LockerRoom...


(fade as music comes up)

'they call him flipper, flipper, lives in a world full of wonder..."
5.178MCIS1::DHAMELIs Nothing Sacred?Tue Jan 09 1990 16:518
    
    Manly:  Dexter Manley
            Jack Youngblood
    
    Wimpy:  Babe Parilli
            Steffan [sic] starring
    
    
5.179MCIS1::DHAMELIs Nothing Sacred?Tue Jan 09 1990 16:548
    
    Correction. that should be
    
        Manly:  Manley
    
        Wimpy:  Dexter
            
    
5.180CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinTue Jan 09 1990 16:571
But his brother Studley Manly had more testosterone than Roseanne Barr!!!!
5.181Bruiser LaRuePFSVAX::JACOBJNing is a way of lifeWed Jan 10 1990 09:141
    
5.182FlipperREFINE::MISURACAWed Jan 10 1990 09:531
    Flipper..... Flipper..... I don't even know her!
5.183Floorward !!! QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceWed Jan 10 1990 09:571
    
5.184Scott StudwellMUSKIE::WIERSBECKAll is quiet on New Years DayWed Jan 10 1990 10:221
    
5.185Emerson BoozerSASE::SZABOJoined P_Names AnonymousWed Jan 10 1990 10:321
    
5.186WFOV12::MORRISONbut everyone knew her as NancyWed Jan 10 1990 10:376
    
         Hawk, before REK says it, I will. You WOULD think of 
    Emerson *Boozer*
            
    Bull
    
5.187CONGRATS, Bull! You win the Golden Keg Award!SASE::SZABOJoined P_Names AnonymousWed Jan 10 1990 10:561
    
5.188Rocky Blier <sp?>REFINE::MISURACAWed Jan 10 1990 16:241
    
5.189Lynn SwannREFINE::MISURACAWed Jan 10 1990 16:241
    
5.190Slasher RobichaudSASE::SZABOElway&amp;BroncosAre#1Wed Jan 10 1990 16:291
    
5.191Jim DinsmoreSASE::SZABOElway&amp;BroncosAre#1Wed Jan 10 1990 16:291
    
5.192Hawk `No flies on me' SzaboCOOKIE::MJOHNSTONWith a sheep under each arm!Wed Jan 10 1990 16:330
5.193LUNER::BROOKSIf you think this was bad ...Wed Jan 10 1990 16:4219
    Wimpy :
    
    Bernadette Kosar
    John Elway (Sounds like Jetsons relative)
    Keena Turner
    DAn Fouts
    Fran Tarkenton
    Merrill Hoge
    Sam Wyche
    Ickey Woods
    
    Manly :
    
    Dr. Midnight
    Matt Millen
    Sam Huff
    "Night Train" Lane
    Willie Lanier
    Jim Braxton
5.194Most MANLYSUBSYS::GROETZINGERTom at DTN 291-7367 NKS1-2/H6Wed Jan 10 1990 17:073
    
    
    Larry Zonka ( and that's just what he did!)
5.195CAM::WAYI've seen the boys of summer in ruinWed Jan 10 1990 17:2711
>    Larry Zonka ( and that's just what he did!)


Tom, you forgot the "C", as in Czonka....see when he hit someone
it actually sounded like
	
		KA-Zonka!  

8^)

ZCzhainsaw
5.196cSUBSYS::GROETZINGERTom at DTN 291-7367 NKS1-2/H6Wed Jan 10 1990 17:306
    Cthank cu, Cthank Cu, Cfrank!
    
    How could I possibly forgotten that?
    
    
    		Ctom
5.197Jack "Big Game" Hunter...... No Thats Manly !QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceWed Jan 10 1990 19:041
    
5.198I thought it was Csonka?AXIS::ROBICHAUDDenver - The Team of the 90'sThu Jan 11 1990 10:071
    
5.199CAM::WAYLest we forget, lest we forgetThu Jan 11 1990 10:547
>>                         -< I thought it was Csonka? >-

 
I was, but it seems more manly with a Cz, you know....

8^)   

5.200z instead of just s, what a difference in my life....SASE::SZABODonkFever-CatchIt,OrScratchYourAss!Thu Jan 11 1990 11:478
    Yeah, my lasted name used to be Sabo, in the days when I always wore
    lace.  Then, I decided to be manlier, and I added the `z'.  Now I shave
    my legs with Chainsaw's axe and I line my lace underwear with
    sandpaper, 60 grit.
    
    HTH.
    
    Hawk
5.201?WCSM::SPINICCIThu Jan 11 1990 20:111
    What about Jack Youngblood or Jim "Hacksaw" Reynolds.
5.202SIOG::EGRIFri Jan 12 1990 06:538
    An All-American middle linebacker from Penn State back in the late
    60s went by the name of Steve Smear. My favourite is still the one
    that appeared in a previous note, Steve Stonebreaker, he was a
    linebacker with the Colts in the 60s.
    
    What about Jim Kiick who ran in the Csonka backfield.
    
    Ted.
5.203He's done it again!RAVEN1::B_ADAMSI begin my new life Feb.11th 1990Sat Jan 13 1990 09:5212
    
    	Ex-Bengal Stanley Wilson was arrested Friday night for scuffling
    with police officers and possessing drug paraphernalia. This arrest
    comes only after a couple days that Wilson accuses two other teammates
    of joining him the night before the Super-Bowl in doing Cocaine. 
    	Around 1:30 a.m. Deputies found Wilson's car in the middle of an
    intersection. Deputies spotted a pipe in the middle of the seat. Wilson
    got out of his car and scuffled with police. The case is to be
    presented Monday.
    
    B.A.
     
5.204Phoenix' Neil Lomax has retir Sat out 1989.Needs hip.HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERSome folks trust in reasonWed Jan 17 1990 01:571
    
5.205SALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Wed Jan 17 1990 10:172
       Lomax also has the last 2 years of his contract 'guaranteed'.
                                      Denny
5.206FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Jan 17 1990 10:3636
    Regular Season records during the eighties:
    
    San Francisco	104-47-1
    Washington		 97-55
    Denver		 93-58-1
    Miami		 92-59-1
    Chicago		 92-60
    Raiders		 89-63
    Rams		 86-66
    Cleveland		 83-68-1
    Cincinnati		 82-70
    Giants		 81-70-1
    Dallas		 79-73
    Seattle		 79-73
    New England		 78-74
    Minnesota		 78-74
    Pittsburgh		 77-75
    Philadelphia	 76-74-2
    Jets		 73-77-2
    San Diego		 72-80
    Buffalo		 69-83
    New Orleans		 67-85
    Kansas City		 66-84-2
    Green Bay		 65-84-3
    Phoenix		 62-88-2
    Houston		 62-90
    Detroit		 61-90-1
    Atlanta		 57-94-1
    Indianapolis	 54-97-1
    Tampa Bay		 45-106-1
    
    John
    
    PS - Someone contacted me in mail yesterday with a question about
    the Bills at Patriots game in November.  Please send mail again.
    I no longer have your mail address
5.207NFC East , division of the 80sLUDWIG::JAMESThu Jan 18 1990 02:0411
    re -1
    That means the NFC East is the toughest division of the 80s
    NFC East had 80% of the teams above .500 during the eighties.
    AFC Central had 75%
    AFC West had 60%
    NFC West had 50%
    AFC East and NFC Central had 40%.
    
                                Steve J.
    
    P.S. Plus those four teams all participated in Superbowls.
5.208Minor but satisfying nit ...SHALOT::HUNTThirtysomething Mutant Ninja DaddyThu Jan 18 1990 02:2422
5.2093 championship losses in a row, thanks for the memories Bob ;^)CNTROL::CHILDSHockey's Human ZamboniThu Jan 18 1990 11:161
    
5.210sorry for the misinformationLUDWIG::JAMESThu Jan 18 1990 21:143
    Thanks for the correction, Bob.
    
                              Steve J.
5.211All-Madden teamTRNING::ALLERTONI hear thunderMon Jan 22 1990 14:434
    
    Can anyone out there post the selections to the All-Madden team?
    
    Steve
5.212REFINE::ASHEWalt's Wackos: 1989 FFL champions!Mon Jan 22 1990 20:2014
    Guess...
    
    P - Cunningham
    Special teams - Meggett, Wolfley, Reyna Thompson
    QB - Majik, Elway, Montana
    RB - Craig, Rathman, N. Anderson, O. Anderson, Humphrey, Hilliard
    WR - Sharpe, Rice, the Wash. posse,forget the rest
    OL - Slater, McDaniel, Newberry, couple of others
    
    DL - Marshall, Millard, Doleman, Hampton
    LB - Taylor, Banks?, Harris, Swilling, R. Jackson, V. Johnson, Haley...
    DB - Griffin, Lott, Dennis Smith... forget the rest..
    
    Gee, think the Broncs would be on there if they weren't in the 'bowl? 
5.213UNXA::ADLEREd - VAX System V OperationsMon Jan 22 1990 20:252
    Madden changed his mind on Elway when he saw him step off the plane
    in New Orleans wearing a double-breasted suit.
5.214All Madden RosterJUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokTue Jan 23 1990 13:3149
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!ames!ncar!boulder!tigger!rsk
From: rsk@tigger.colorado.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football
Subject: All-Madden Team List
Keywords: Madden, NFL
Message-ID: <15936@boulder.Colorado.EDU>
Date: 21 Jan 90 23:22:35 GMT
Sender: news@boulder.Colorado.EDU
Reply-To: rsk@tigger.colorado.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Organization: University of Colorado at Boulder
Lines: 37
 
The concentration of NFC players may be explained by reference to one
of the criteria for selection: Madden stated that he had to see the players
in a game this season.  Since Madden works for CBS, which covers NFC
games, it is not surprising that only a handful of AFC players made the team.
 
Offense
 
Quarterback: Joe Montana, 49ers; John Elway, Broncos; Don Majkowski, Packers
Running back: Dalton Hilliard, Saints; Neal Anderson, Bears; Bobby Humphrey,
	Broncos; OJ Anderson, Giants; Roger Craig, 49ers; Tom Rathman, 49ers.
Tight end: Keith Jackson, Eagles; Donny Warren, Redskins
Line: Keith Kartz, Broncos; Randall McDaniel, Vikings; Tom Newberry, Rams;
	Nate Newton, Dallas; Jackie Slater, Rams; Jim Lachey, Redskins;
	Stan Brock, Saints
Wide Receiver: Jerry Rice, 49ers; Gary Clark, Redskins; Art Monk, Redskins;
	Ricky Sanders, Redskins; Sterling Sharpe, Packers
 
Defense
 
Line: Reggie White, Eagles; Jerome Brown, Eagles; Richard Dent, Bears;
	Leonard Marshall, Giants; Chris Doleman, Vikings; Keith Millard,
	Vikings; Dan Hampton, Bears; Greg Kragen, Broncos
Linebacker: Lawrence Taylor, Giants; Pat Swilling, Saints; Ricky Jackson,
	Saints; Vaughn Johnson, Saints; Tim Harris, Packers; Leslie O'Neil,
	Chargers; Kevin Greene, Rams; Charles Haley, 49ers; Matt Miller, 49ers
Corner: Jerry Gray, Rams; Don Griffin, 49ers
Safety: Chet Brooks, 49ers; Tim McDonald, Cardinals; Dennis Smith, Broncos;
	Ronnie Lott, 49ers
 
Special teams
 
Punter: Randall Cunningham, Eagles
Kick Returner: Dave Meggett, Giants
Kick Blocker: Ron Wolfley, Cardinals
Kick Coverage: Rene Thompson, Giants
 
Referees: Jim Tunney, Ben Dreith
5.215MADden DOG!COOKIE::MJOHNSTONO Ye of little face!Tue Jan 23 1990 13:597
You forgot:

Mascot - Cleat (Rottweiler) Phil. bEagles

	They had a film clip of him eating a sofa

Mike JN
5.216GENRAL::WADEThe 68 Jets, 88 Dodgers, 89 Broncos!Thu Jan 25 1990 14:0931
 	We have reputations elsewhere........
    
    Claybone
    
>                   STKCSC::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]NFL.NOTE;1 >>>
>                          -< NFL - American Football >-
>================================================================================
>Note 146.14                     NFL rules changes                       14 of 15
>STKSMA::AHLGREN "No commercial potential!"           20 lines  25-JAN-1990 09:27
>                         -< A word from your sponsor. >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    RE: .8
    
>    I should actually delete this note because it violates the conference
>    rules, but I will let it stay due to two things. The information
>    that is in the note has been commented, and the abuse wasn't directed
>    to a particular person.
    
>    THIS MESSAGE IS FOR ALL:
    
>    One of the objectives with this conference was to discuss football
>    at a higher level than the one in SPORTS. During the last part of
>    this season I've seen the quality of the discussions detoriate.
>    This conference should discuss football in a civilized manner without
>    either people- or team- bashing. 
    
>    Could everybody PLEASE try to keep it that way, and that we next
>    season raises the discussion to the level it had last season.
    
>    Paul.
>    (Mr Moderator.)
5.217AXIS::ROBICHAUDLDUC::SPORTS-TheMiamiHeraldOfNotesThu Jan 25 1990 14:462
    
    
5.218COOKIE::MJOHNSTONO Ye of little face!Thu Jan 25 1990 15:007
5.219COMET::MONTGOMERYThe Greek,Cosell,P.BowlenThu Jan 25 1990 16:398
5.220GENRAL::WADEThe 68 Jets, 88 Dodgers, 89 Broncos!Thu Jan 25 1990 19:4021
Anybody else hear this?  I guess you were wrong Mikey C......
    
Claybone
    
    
            <<< COMET::COMET$DISK6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COLORADO.NOTE;5 >>>
                                 -< Colorado >-
================================================================================
Note 1060.37                 FORTY NINER fans unite!                    37 of 37
BSS::JSANDERS "Bart Simpson for Class President"      9 lines  25-JAN-1990 14:40
                             -< What's the deal ? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I just heard that 3 quarterbacks have tested POSITIVE for drugs and
    Elway was NOT one of them.... The three named were Montana, Kelly,
    Marino. This would not keep Montana from the Superbowl however it would
    keep him from the Probowl. Anyone else here this on the radio ?????

    Go Broncos

    			-Flash

5.221QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceThu Jan 25 1990 19:564
     I can beleive Joe Montana on Coke.....  Just look at 
    the little girly mons eyes sometime.
    
    Big Game
5.222GENRAL::GIBSONThu Jan 25 1990 20:322
    
    Hunter just spiked his Pepsi, just like he did to D.C's mayor.
5.223Anything to sell newspapers.....SASE::SZABOFri Jan 26 1990 11:246
    So what if they take a few puffs or a few toots?  Don't bother me in
    the least, and my kids won't be effected by it as long as the media
    shuts up.  And, it obviously doesn't affect the on-field performance. 
    Well, Kelly maybe.  :-)  So, what's the big deal?
    
    Hawk
5.224GENRAL::WADEThe 68 Jets, 88 Dodgers, 89 Broncos!Fri Jan 26 1990 12:0111
    ESPN made the story, that was aired by a D.C. tv station, look 
    pretty hoaky.  It appears to me they were just trying to up
    their ratings.
    
    Hawk, for one thing, it's illegal.  Another thing is the league
    rules prohibit this.  If it were true, these guys would be putting
    money into the supplier's hands to make another shipment with.  One
    day, part of one of these shipments may make it to your kid.  The
    media isn't going to shut up either, true or not.
    
    Claybone
5.225SASE::SZABOThu Jan 25 1990 15:0413
    Claybone, you're absolutely right, the media won't shut up about these
    things.  I still maintain that what a person does in the privacy of
    their own home and on their own time is their business, regardless of
    what "league rules" are.  The time is coming where DEC will have their
    own "league rules" controlling our actions away from the workplace. 
    Will you agree with and abide by them?  Heck, many of us get upset at
    what can or cannot be said in SPORTS, which, by the way, has "league
    rules" governing it.........
    
    Don't take this as "picking on you", Clay.  You just happened to reply
    to my reply......  :-)
    
    Hawk
5.226Figgers!SALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Thu Jan 25 1990 15:153
       According to Will McDonough it was 'a Denver telivision station'
   that put out the names of Montana, Kelly, and Marino.
                                  Denny
5.227Yes to testing !EARRTH::BROOKSRemember the Massachusetts 54th !Thu Jan 25 1990 15:2811
    Sorry guys, but if drugs affect the performance in the workplace,
    you should be tested. It obviously has an effect in athletic
    competition, so I'm in favor of testing. I feel that if I'm shelling
    out $$$ (big $$$ at that) for a NFL game, at least I should see
    athletes at their best, and not coked out. 
    
    Strictly from a business standpoint (owner's), if I invest millions
    in a player, I will do my damnest to protect that investment - even
    if it means saving a idiot from himself.
    
    Doc
5.228COMET::MONTGOMERYT full of it, Donk's Lose!Thu Jan 25 1990 15:308
>       According to Will McDonough it was 'a Denver telivision station'
>   that put out the names of Montana, Kelly, and Marino.
 

Why am I not surprised that it was a Donk T.V. station!!!!

Monty

5.229SALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Thu Jan 25 1990 15:333
       He also said someone else threw Jim Mcmahon's name into the mix.
    So we have 4 names and only 3 openings.
                                     Denny
5.231GENRAL::WADEThe 68 Jets, 88 Dodgers, 89 Broncos!Fri Jan 26 1990 15:1636
Hawk, it's a tough situation to say the least.  I think mandatory testing
is a presumption of guilt before innocence.  But, Dr. 00:00 does have
a point.  The owners invest alot of money in these guys to perform with
their bodies.  The owners probably sip champagne while watching them
perform too!  Sort of "do as I say, not as I do cuz I'm forking out
the bucks".

What do you do with guys like Ben Johnson?  He probably would not have
won those olympic races without the aid of steroids.  He could claim
"foul" because what he does in the privacy of his home is his business.
Do we have separate drug-aided/drug-free olympics?

On one hand, if you have mandatory testing at the workplace, people
will think twice before snorting that line which would decrease
demand.  I'm all for making it harder on the suppliers.  On the other
hand, I think people should be judged on performance alone.  If a
person abuses drugs, their performance will likely suffer.  If a 
person is busted by the cops for drugs, then the employer could deal
with them as they see fit.

I'm counting on me to educate my kid(s) about drugs.  Hopefully,
when he/they are confronted with the choice, he/they will make
the choice I consider right.  The people that use drugs are the
ones that cause our kids to have to make that choice.  The users
support the suppliers.

I hope DEC doesn't adopt a mandatory testing policy for it's
employees.  If faced with the decision to provide for my family,
or submit to a test............I don't know what I'd do yet!
I have nothing to hide, but I don't agree with the presumption
of guilt that the tests are based on.

Clay

ps  Sorry to ramble.  I didn't feel that you were picking on me
    either.
5.232It's twue, it's twueDEC25::MCFALLI'm Doomed, now Bo knows Diddely too!Fri Jan 26 1990 15:207
>     I'm surprised anybody believes it. (The McDonough article)

	It was reported on Sportscenter last night that the names
came from a Denver RADIO station, WBYG? Sports Radio or something
like tha, and that they came out in the morning.
    
Jim M
5.233COOKIE::MJOHNSTONO Ye of little face!Fri Jan 26 1990 15:5710
5.234GENRAL::GIBSONFri Jan 26 1990 16:1016
    
    Here here Mike!
    
    Clay,
    DEC has already instituted a drug testing program. It's not everyone,
    yet, but it is there. It is scarry as to how right Orwell was. "Give me
    your gun, boy", "pee in the jar boy", where's your papers boy"...
    What's even more scarry is that the silent majority is doing nothing to
    stop this BS.
    
    
    Nightline last night said all Denver TV and radio stations denied that
    they were the ones that named names.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.235QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceFri Jan 26 1990 16:1511
     I 3rd Mike Jn's comments.....   Hoot make some good points too.
    The Orwellien society is just around the corner.  I don't want
    anyone to think that I am supporting people doing drugs in the 
    work place or while they are behind the wheel of a car or at home
    for that matter.  But the one thing that I am in favor of is freedom
    of choice.  (See yesterdays Superbowl note)  
    
    Big Game
    
    Stop this shit before it gets out of control !
    
5.236GENRAL::WADEThe 68 Jets, 88 Dodgers, 89 Broncos!Fri Jan 26 1990 16:277
    Hoot, I was aware of that new policy that came down.  I was
    referring to an *all* employee policy.  I think it will take
    a mass movement by the testees (go ahead guys :^)  ) to put
    an end to it.  EVERYONE will have to unite to stop the testing.
    Where do I sign up?
    
    Clay
5.237SASE::SZABOFri Jan 26 1990 16:591
    One day, Clay, we'll all be filberts!  :-)
5.238COOKIE::MJOHNSTONO Ye of little face!Fri Jan 26 1990 17:245
5.239Sorry to hear about thatQUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceFri Jan 26 1990 17:325
    I think he ment the he didn't have any BALLS !!
    
    Oh well,  We all have our own cross to bare  .....  ;^)
    
    Big Game
5.240GENRAL::WADEThe 68 Jets, 88 Dodgers, 89 Broncos!Fri Jan 26 1990 17:353
    Teary_eye_ward!
    
    Claybone
5.241SASE::SZABOFri Jan 26 1990 17:366
    > we'll all be filberts....
    
    Ya see, Clay said something about us DECies becoming *testees*. 
    Testees..........filberts..........get it?  :-)
    
    Nevermind.
5.242CAM::WAYThe Saw is FamilyMon Jan 29 1990 10:2428
Re Drug Testing....

I have very mixed feelings on this.  Good points have been made by
all, and while I have very specific feelings on drug use, I have
some specific feelings on mandatory testing.

I am one of the staunchest supporters of my private life not being
controlled by my employer.  However I do feel that the employer
has a right to ensure that I don't come to work trashed.  I enjoy
drinking.  As anyone can tell you, I can exercise my elbow with the
best of them, but DEC does have a right to expect me to be sober
at work and when I come to work.  I don't think DEC has a right
to ascertain whether I drink during my off hours.

Drugs are a touchier matter...

Also, the drug testing procedures are not air tight.  People have 
tested positive who have never used drugs, and also, I'll be dam*ed
if I'm gonna have someone watch me pee into a bottle to make sure it's
my pee-pee.....

If anyone wants to know more about this testing stuff, I have a couple
of vaxmail names I can get you....send me some mail...

Sorry for the digression.


'Saw
5.243Yup, from this angle, it's definitely his pee-pee! :-) SASE::SZABOMon Jan 29 1990 10:467
    Chainsaw, I doubt that "someone" will be watching you pee to make sure
    it was your pee-pee.  In this day and age, it'll be on video tape for
    official review, sort of like instant replay in football!
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk
5.244CAM::WAYThe Saw is FamilyMon Jan 29 1990 11:066
One Hellacioius thought:

	John Madden, with telestrator in hand, doing a color commentary
	on someone whizzing in a cup...

Gawd, it *has* to be monday morning!
5.245Montana & Elway to miss Pro BowlAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacTue Jan 30 1990 11:304
    Both John Elway and Joe Montana will skip the Pro Bowl this year due to
    elbow injuries.  Montana's may require surgery.  Elway injured his
    during the first quarter of the SB when he hit the turf.  The injury
    wasn't serious and will probably not require surgery.
5.246Also outREFINE::MISURACABubbymania. Whatca gonna doTue Jan 30 1990 12:052
    Carl Mecklemburg (sp?) of Denver and John Taylor of SF will also miss
    the Pro Bowl.
5.247Kelly? Kosar? Brister? Marino? Bradshaw?SHALOT::MEDVIDSacrifice for a new nirvanaTue Jan 30 1990 12:219
    Rypien will replace Montana.
    
    Elway was already a replacement for Esiason.  Who will it be now? 
    Kosar won't play because of the injury (will he?).  Perhaps Kelly or
    Brister.  My money is on Bubby due to the popularity and respect he
    garnered during the playoffs.
    
    	--dan'l
    
5.248COMET::MONTGOMERYThe Denver VikingsTue Jan 30 1990 15:2011
   > Elway injured his
   > during the first quarter of the SB when he hit the turf.  The injury
   > wasn't serious and will probably not require surgery.

  Naw!~!!!  He was pullin his groin before the game and blew it all then!!!!!
;^)





5.249QUASER::HUNTERJack's Diner, No Brains, No ServiceTue Jan 30 1990 15:2513
    Monty...
    
     Sure is easy for you to come in here and SLAM(tm)
    the Broncos after they get blown out of the SB. I
    only have one question for you.  When was the last 
    time you could even root for the Faiders in post
    season play...   Been a while ain't it.  I got  $5.00
    thats says the Broncos finish ahead of the Faiders
    in the AFC again NEXTED(tm) season.   
    
    Quit being a JERK, Monty,
    
    Big Game
5.250JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokTue Jan 30 1990 15:3710
    John Taylor of SF and Mecklenburg (sp?) of Denver will also skip.
    Mark Rypien will replace Montana.  Rypien in the Pro Bowl?  What a
    laugher.  
    
    By the way, I read that Majkowski may not play in the Pro Bowl also
    because if he does not have a contract by Feb. 1 he will be a free
    agent and without a contract and the included insurance he will not
    play in Honolulu.  
    
    Charles
5.251LEVERS::STROUTknocking on heaven's door...Tue Jan 30 1990 15:425
    
    	Just one question... Who the HELL is Rypien??? :)
    Why not Everett??  Oh well...  yawn
    
    sean
5.252JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokTue Jan 30 1990 15:507
    I hope Everett if selected as a replacement will consider not going (or
    maybe he already refused, hence Rypien?), after being snubbed initially
    like that (ala Mailman's case).  Get Lomax, that'll be quite a way to 
    end a career.
    
    Charles
    
5.253COMET::MONTGOMERYThe Denver VikingsTue Jan 30 1990 16:0812
    
re:    Big Game


	Yeah it is easy because my team Won the big one 3 times!!!!!

But you have   "Big John" !!!! 8^))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))





5.254AXIS::ROBICHAUDMcComradeThu Feb 01 1990 08:575
    	I think the Pro Bowl should be cancelled due to lack of interest
    from both the fans and players.  I never watch this game, but would
    love to see it live!
    
    				/Don
5.255Reeves looking for a lobotomoyCNTROL::CHILDSBradshaw knows ElwayThu Feb 01 1990 09:2511
    
    Elway's bum elbow sounds like a cop out to me for his performance
    last sunday. I never saw him hit the turf that hard or come up favoring
    his elbow at all.
    
    I think Monty's has it right he blew it out in the bathroom. After
    seeing Janet though, I can't say I blame him for going that route..
    
    ;^)
    
    mike
5.256Odds on SB XXVPFSVAX::JACOBChuck U, FarleyThu Feb 01 1990 09:3027
    Here's the odds in yesterday's USA Today:
    
    49ers                3:1
    Rams                 6:1
    Giants               8:1
    Broncos,Vikings     10:1
    Eagles              12:1
    Bills, Browns,
          Bengals       15:1
    Saints, Redskins    20:1
    Oilers, Packers,
             Bears      25:1
    Steelers           100:1
    Chiefs, Raiders   1000:1
    Dolphins, Colts   5000:1
    Seahawks, Lions  10000:1
    Patriots, Chargers  100000:1
    
    Jets, Falcons, Cardinals, Bucs, Cowboys    1 million:1
    
    
    Hell, drop a buck on the last 5, you may get lucky.
    
    
    JaKe
    
    
5.257CNTROL::CHILDSBradshaw knows ElwayThu Feb 01 1990 09:508
    
    I'd rather drop 10 on the Lions and atleast have a chance, rather 1
    on the last five....
    
    Got to love the Steelers at 100-1. Atleast if they get there, they'll
    show up....
    
    mike
5.258CAM::WAYThe Saw is FamilyThu Feb 01 1990 10:175
Elway hurt his ebbo choking....

his chicken....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH(tm)
5.259Montana's Elbow will not require surgeryAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacThu Feb 01 1990 11:171
    
5.260RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOwow, it sorta snowed, kinda...Thu Feb 01 1990 11:338
    Want even a bigger laugh....Cunningham was selected to replace
    the Majic Man, and will start!  Talk about an undeserving selection.
    What a crock....
    
    How the hell is Everett not on the team?  And Rypien had a better
    year than the overrated Iggle.
    
    JD
5.261GENRAL::WADEI mean what you know....Thu Feb 01 1990 12:094
    Can somebody tell me the scores of the two games the 49'ers lost
    this year?  Thanks in advance....
    
    Claybone
5.262both at sfLEVERS::STROUTknocking on heaven's door...Thu Feb 01 1990 12:103
    
    	LA over SF 13-12
    	GB over SF 21-17
5.263LUNER::BROOKSRemember the Massachusetts 54th !Thu Feb 01 1990 13:138
    re pro Bowl
    
    Dave Kreig will replace Elway.
    
    Jim Everett was asked to play in the Pro Bowl, but has a disc problem
    in his back, so he decided to stay home. Rypian was a good pick.
    I think that the Posse (the Skins' WR's) should have gone. None
    of them will ....
5.264JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokThu Feb 01 1990 13:507
    Glad to see Everett bypassing a silly game like this.  The way the Pro
    Bowl is going, it may not last much longer.  Why don't they just have a
    All-Pro Golf Tourney or a Pro Bowl-ing Tourney in Hawaii instead?  Who
    needs a boring football game like that after one season?  Let's have
    some fun!
    
    Charles
5.265How 'bout a no time limit tug-of-war between the squads?AXIS::ROBICHAUDACC-ACrookedChrisThu Feb 01 1990 14:111
    
5.266With or without their wives?SASE::SZABOThu Feb 01 1990 14:371
    
5.267how about either a cqfc or an lduc36912::JACOBGo backoff in your own jack yardThu Feb 01 1990 15:261
    
5.268CAM::WAYVengeance is mine, sayeth the SawThu Feb 01 1990 15:426
How bout the seeing the Perdue Bowl instead...

That's where the Whole Turkeys take on the Perdue Parts team.  It
would be wild, wouldn't it?  Or would you all call fowl?

Chainsaw
5.269NFL NEwsRIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOBaseball,hotdogs,applepie,MrTThu Feb 01 1990 17:0629
    The Cowboys announced that they would not protect long-time 'boys
    Too Tall Jones, Jim Rafferty, and Everson Walls.
    
    The owner announced that Tom Landry will be put on the "Ring of
    Honor", but not right away, cause they don't want it to seem like
    a publicity stunt so soon after his induction into the HOF. (Whadaf*?)
    
    They also exercised their rights to all 8 draft picks in the H.Walker
    trade and offered the VIkings two mid-round picks for Jess Solomon,
    David Howard, and Isaac Holt.
    
    
    Former Bear RB Calvin Thomas, who served a 30-day drug suspension
    2 years ago, said he saw 4 teammates getting high on drugs just
    days before the 87 test.  Thomas said the players were steered clear
    of substance abuse problems with the aid of the team - help he claims
    he never received.  Bears management denies everything.
    
    Florida's Emmit Smith and Virgina RB Marcus Wilson will test the
    waters in this year's NFL draft (both are undergrads, BTW)
    
    Dan Reeves said he'll look into a reverse altitude theory suggested
    a few years ago by a fan to try to explain the Broncos routinely
    putrid play in the Super Bowl.
    
    Players started arriving for the NFL's version of the "Miss America
    Pageant" in Indianapolis.
    
    Sarge
5.270More NFL NewsAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacThu Feb 01 1990 17:2917
5.271COMET::MONTGOMERYCan Collie, Win Super BowlThu Feb 01 1990 17:339
    
>    Dan Reeves said he'll look into a reverse altitude theory suggested
>    a few years ago by a fan to try to explain the Broncos routinely
>    putrid play in the Super Bowl.
    
 I think that if he looked at the game films he would see that it his
own stupid play calling that resulted in PUTRID play.......

Monty
5.272RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOwho is Mrt's Rusty??Thu Feb 01 1990 17:508
    Also, on the PLan B front, speculation is that the Seattle Seahawks
    will not protect RB Curt Warner, who suffered through his worst
    year last year (personally, I feel the O-Line had a lot to do with
    it, though Curt has lost a step, and appear tentative at times -
    but he is a good receiver and my be worth a look-see)  The big question
    is if the Boz will be protected or not...
    
    JD
5.273Yo Groaner, LiteLocks ... got any room on the wagon ?LUNER::BROOKSDrM : The Conscience Of SPORTSFri Feb 02 1990 11:039
    re .271
    
    Realtively low ? Ha !
    
    Rozier was offered $160,000. He made over $600,000 last year. 
    
    And that's why the Oilers aren't going to win jacks--t !
    
    If this keeps up, I'm goona become a Clowns fan .... :-(
5.274Move to a REAL teamPFSVAX::JACOBGo backoff in your own jack yardFri Feb 02 1990 11:4411
    Hey Midracingstripeinyourshorts:
    
    Why in the HELL would you move over to the Clevescum Brown(spot)s(tm)
    when the up and coming Steelers will be the AFC team of the '90s???
    
    Bernie "Fudgepacker" Kosar and the skidmarks are going nowhere but to
    the bottom of the AFC Central.
    
    
    JaKe
    
5.275Plan B and Cowboy/Viking Trade NewsAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacFri Feb 02 1990 11:4620
    More Plan B news:  
    
    The Oilers will protect 4 of their running backs and release 2 tight
    ends.  They will be going more with the run and shoot offense, so they
    fell the TE won't be that important.  The amazing thing is that the
    despite going to a 1 back offense, they are keeping Highsmith, Pinkett,
    Rozier, and (forgot).  Perhaps they are keeping them to trade them
    rather than losing them for no compensation.  They also won't protect
    some of their starting OL.
    
    The Giants will not be protecting Morris or Anderson.  Other players
    expected to be free agents are QB Rutledge, NT Smerlas, and QB Kramer. 
    The head of the players union doesn't think there will be much action
    on the free agent front this year because the owners don't want to
    drive up salaries again.
    
    The trade for Herschel Walker is finally wrapped up.  The Cowboys will
    be keeping Holt et.al., have 3 of Minnesotas high round draft picks,
    and will give up third round picks in 1990 and 1991 and a 10th round
    pick in 1990.
5.276Little Deals Dept.MCIS1::DHAMELIs Nothing Sacred?Fri Feb 02 1990 13:028
    
    Doug Flutie has been left unprotected by the Patriots (something
    that can be said about all the Pats' Quarterbacks this season.)
    
    Just pick 'em up, and make your parade arrangements. 8^)
    
    -Dick
    
5.277Oilers will allways.........LUDWIG::WHITEHAIRLet it snow!Fri Feb 02 1990 14:547
    
    Mr Brooks...well...I guess we can fit you on, ya know, with all
    the Browns fans in this file....you never know...be sure to get
    a good seat.
    
    WOOF
    
5.278USRCV1::COLOTTIRThick as a brickFri Feb 02 1990 16:216
    The 4th Oiler RB is Lorenzo White. I can see them keeping Pinkett,
    Highsmith, and White. They should try to sign Rozier and trade him
    for a wideout for the run-n-shoot.
    			Raider_Rich
    
    
5.279what run-and-shoot?FTMUDG::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterFri Feb 02 1990 16:241
    
5.280GENRAL::GIBSONFri Feb 02 1990 16:3013
    
    Houston runs a variation of it at times.
    
    
    Guess who said he wants to be a RAIDER, other than half of the league.
    This guy is a conditional free agent. 
    
    
    None other than Don Majkowski. The RAIDERS are interested. He wants at
    least $2mil a year. Green Bay is expected to match any offer, though.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.281JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Feb 02 1990 16:482
    He's not worth 2 mill a year.  I hope I'm wrong but his magic will be
    gone soon.
5.282I like the run and shoot, but the Oilers aren't the team ...LUNER::BROOKSDrM : The Conscience Of SPORTSFri Feb 02 1990 16:5510
    The Oilers have too many good RB's to commit to a R&S. they should
    not do it. 
    
    SF used two backs and a TE pretty well, I'd say.
    
    Keep the diversification, and they should go to the Super Bowl,
    but they won't go anywhere by letting 3 backs go stale, instead
    of 2 .....
    
    DrM
5.284GENRAL::WADEI mean what you know....Mon Feb 05 1990 11:247
    Well, I guess we can see that there's no truth to the RUMOR that
    the nfc is better than the afc.  The pro bowl proved that.  The
    nfc had to rely on 3 defensive td's and even then, the afc would
    have won the game except for a bogus call which nullified an afc
    game-winning td.
    
    Claybone
5.285Super Salesman...FTMUDG::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterMon Feb 05 1990 11:2516
    I nearly lost my cookies last night when the sportscaster
    announced Jim Kelly's new contract.  
    
    Around $3.5M per year for 6 years????  I thought Elway
    was doing well at $2M but $3.5M?  Kelly may be one of
    the better QBs right now--when he's on....but I question
    his leadership.  Maybe the Bills think he's one and with
    that kind of $$$$ they apparently do.  They must be
    weeding out the real troublemakers and must think that
    Kelly is not one of them. (Remember all the bickering
    the whole last season?)  For that kind of money Kelly
    will have to produce or will be run out of town by the
    fans.
    
    Cowboy  (go Bills)
      
5.286FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Feb 05 1990 11:378
    The Pro Bowl is not indication whatsoever of which conference is
    better.  Half the players picked don't play and the teams play under
    a very restrictive set of rules.
    
    The Pro Bowl is no better an indicator of quality than the first
    preseason game of the year.
    
    John
5.287CAM::WAYRevenge is a dish best served cold...Mon Feb 05 1990 14:2411
An interesting remark by Tom Landry yesterday.

In a sideline interview on the Pro Bowl, he listed some 'dynasties'
that he thought of to compare to the 9ers.

He mentioned Green Bay first, then he also mentioned Pittsburgh.  
Then he said that when he first came into the league, Cleveland was
going strong...

FWIW,
'Saw
5.288Did the NFC walk it ????AYOV10::CAIRNSThis is ABSOLUTE REALITY !!Tue Feb 06 1990 07:459
    
    Can someone supply the score of the Pro Bowl for us here in the
    U.K. ?
    
    Also who scored the TD etc ...
    
    Many Thanks 
    
    Walker
5.289PFSVAX::JACOBBo Doesn't know ArbitrationTue Feb 06 1990 09:3211
    Final was 
    
    
    NFC     27
    AFC     21
    
    Don't know the other particulars, though.
    
    
    JaKe
    
5.290CAM::WAYTue Feb 06 1990 10:2527
Some highlights:

	
One NFC TD scored by Dave Meggat of the Giants, on a nice pass over the
middle from Randall Cunningham.  Later in the game Meggat was *wide open*
down the right sideline, but that stiff from Washington, Rypien overthrew
him!

Millard from Minnesota return a Dave Krieg (Seattle) fumble (WHAT ELSE?)
for a TD.

Tim Harris (Green Bay) made a diving interception of a Warren Moon pass.

Gray (LA Rams) returned a Warren Moon interception back for a TD...

Ronnie Lott (SF) had a clear int overturned on replay.  The refs, trying
to make a boring game more interesting decided they couldn't make a 
conclusion, on a replay where EVERY sane and rational person in America
(and probably quite a few irrational one too) could see that the ball
hit Lott on the ground, stayed on his leg, and then was grabbed by Lott.

The ball never hit the ground....he was jobbed by the instant replay(DORK)
ref....

Just some highlights...

Chainsaw
5.291Too smart to go with the JestSALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Tue Feb 06 1990 15:013
       According to Will McDonough Mike Holmgren will stay with the
    9ers.
                                      Denny
5.292Better action in the stands...LUDWIG::WHITEHAIRLet it snow!Tue Feb 06 1990 15:1211
    
    The best part of the pro bowl was in the 1st quarter.....
    
    Durring a break in the action...the camera went to the stands...
    
    They found two girls in bikini tops...one was pink and when the
    girl noticed that she was on camera, she started jumping and waving...
    not to mention.....B O U N C I N G !!!!!   WOW!  I COULDN'T BELEIVE
    IT.
    
    
5.293CAM::WAYTue Feb 06 1990 15:168
Damn!  Damn!  DamnDamn!

I *knew* better than to watch the f----ing hockey game first!!!!!


ARGGHHHHH!!!!!!

Chainsaw
5.294PFSVAX::JACOBBo DOESN'T know Arbitration!!Tue Feb 06 1990 15:2313
  
>>    They found two girls in bikini tops...one was pink and when the
>>    girl noticed that she was on camera, she started jumping and waving...
>>    not to mention.....B O U N C I N G !!!!!   WOW!  I COULDN'T BELEIVE
>>    IT.
  
    
    Hey Whitehead, In case you didn't notice, those two girls were Bernie
    Kosar and Matt Bahr.
    
    
    JaKe
    
5.295good game!!FTMUDG::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterTue Feb 06 1990 15:276
    Yeah, I got her on tape.  It gives me a warm feeling to see girls
    enjoying a game of football so much.  (I had to do an instant
    replay after my wife went to the kitchen).
    
    Cowboy (still suffering with this damned warm feeling)
    
5.296CAM::WAYTue Feb 06 1990 15:342
First it gets warm, then it gets blue...
You know what I mean, and they do too...
5.297It Died This YearCSC32::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German SheperdsTue Feb 06 1990 15:367
    At 9:24pm MST, on 4 February, the 1989 NFL season ended.....
    
    I think a moment of silence is in order.
    
    Live from Charger Central.....
    
    Glenn
5.298GENRAL::WADEI mean what you know....Tue Feb 06 1990 16:396
    re. .284 and .286
    
    	Damn!  And here I spent all kinds of money on bait and only
    	caught one...;^)
    
    Claybone
5.299SIOG::EGRIFri Feb 09 1990 12:1138
After reading bout Jim Kelly's contract, Joe Namath jumped into my head.
    Does anyone remember the name of the Jets owner at the time and
    the terms of Joe's contract i.e. the sum and length.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    The owner was Sonny Werblin.
5.300SALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Fri Feb 09 1990 12:263
       Wasn't it $400,000? Don't remmeber the other terms. But I remember
    he signed it right after his last (Bowl) game.
                                      denny
5.301Denver Dallas ConnectionAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacFri Feb 09 1990 14:162
    In keeing with recent history, the Broncos are looking at another
    old Cowboy.  Rumor has it that Denver is interested in Everson Walls.
5.302COMET::MONTGOMERYDonks=Dallas rest homeFri Feb 09 1990 14:562

5.303Back to J. KellyAIMHI::STEVENSONMontana Ends World Hunger-Film at 11Fri Feb 09 1990 14:5712
    If that was really true about the $3.5M/year for the next 6, sayyyy,
    that's pretty good!
    
    Imagine, then, what the Bills would be willing to pay a guy with more
    class who knew when to keep his mouth and ego more in check, and who
    didn't have a real knack for throwing 3 or 4 game-losing interceptions
    a season!
    
    Or, how much will they be willing to pay Frank Reich, the guy the
    majority of Bills fans voted that they'd rather see at QB!
    
    
5.304Joe the ThrowSHIRE::FINEUC1Mon Feb 12 1990 13:1921
    re .29999999
    
    Seems to me B'Way Joe signed for three years for a total of $427,000.
    
    Can't imagine what the extra $27,000 couldabin.
    
    BTW, I've seen lots of notes debating whether or not he was the
    greatest QB of all time or not.  Performance-wise I would say he
    wasn't, and that's probably easily proven.  The fact that he had enough
    plastic in his knees to make a car seat should be considered...
     
     In every other way, he was easily the most influencial player in his era:
     He lent credibility to the AFL, was a known boozer and woman-chaser
    which added the Playboy element to the game, and in an Ali-like manner,
    announced that there was no way that the Jets were going to lose that
    Super Bowl (everyone laughed at him) and they didn't.
    Some of the things he did really changed the game and it's image.  What
    other guys can we put in the same boat as he, Ali, Gretsky or Richard, 
    Mantle or Aaron??
    
    rick 
5.305NFL satelite blackout?SHALOT::MEDVIDNow it's ACID ROCKWed Feb 14 1990 11:5113
    I was talking to a guy in Pittsburgh yesterday who is helping us
    organize a Black and Gold club here in Charlotte.  He mentioned that
    the NFL is looking into taking games out of satelite transmission or
    something like that.  In fact, there are already law suits against the
    NFL filed in South Florida to prevent it from doing so.
    
    Does anyone know any more about this?  Is it a rumor?  If it's true, this
    would crush a lot of relocated people who want to watch their favorite
    teams.  I must admit that the Browns fans have the greatest followings
    in distant cities (probably because they all liked the Browns but hated
    living in Cleveland); the dawgs certainly wouldn't let this happen.
    
    	--dan'l
5.306CAM::WAYRegulators...Mount UP!Wed Feb 14 1990 12:0116
First off, perhaps I'm ignorant, but what's a Black and Gold club?

Second, I would think, and perhaps this is a too common sense approach
to this, but if the signal is being broadcast, it's a transmission
everyone should be able to receive...  I don't think the NFL is right.

The fools should realize that they'll have more fans if they leave it
as is.  Let's say I move to Seattle or Arizona or some place where
they don't show the Giants.  If I have a dish, and can grab the signal
from the Giants games, I'll be a happy camper.  If not, I'll probably
join a soccer league and play on Sunday afternoons...


I'm getting so I hate big-time sports! Why???? $$$$$$$

'Saw
5.307WHAT??? NO BROWNS GAME? NO WAY!ROULET::WHITEHAIRLet it snow!Wed Feb 14 1990 12:2423
    
    re: -2
    
    	Ok, here is the scoop as far as the transmission goes.....
    
    	Currently, ABC/CBS transmit on two transponders...Telstar 1
    & 2.  NBC transmits in the C-band...which has to be picked up
    by a different type of feed horn (on the dish)(cost-aprox 2 - 500.00).
    These transmitions are direct feed from the stadium and cann't be
    blacked out.  Other transmissions, say by super stations and large
    city ABC/CBS/NBC networks (ones that have commercials) can be 
    blacked out.  For instance....on transponder Satcom 4, ch 18, from
    Baltimore...black out most of their baseball transmissions for one
    reason or another.
    
    	So....Yes black-outs can and do happen, but, if you take the
    time and serch through the spectrum before actual game time...you'll
    probibly find the game you want to watch.
    
    	I'm not worried!
    
    	Hal
    
5.308Black and Gold ClubSHALOT::MEDVIDNow it's ACID ROCKWed Feb 14 1990 12:4112
    re: Black and Gold Club
    
    A Black and Gold Club is a Pittsburgh sports fan club.  If you haven't
    noticed, all professional Pittsburgh teams wear black and gold.  There
    are Black and Gold Clubs (sometimes under a different name, i.e. the
    Atlanta-Pittsburgh Club) all over the country.  They are called Black
    and Gold Clubs as opposed to something like the Charlotte Steelers Club
    so as not to be limiting to a specific sport.
    
    Thanks for the soap box!
    
    	--dan'l
5.309CAM::WAYRegulators...Mount UP!Wed Feb 14 1990 12:428
re .-1


Thanks Dan'l.  I didn't realize that they had such things...

learn something new every day....

Chainsaw
5.310SALEM::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Wed Feb 14 1990 13:093
       They stole their colors (black and gold) from the Broons.
    Especiall the Penguins, who did it a few years ago!
                                  Denny
5.311Pittsburgh Colors...a boring historyCOOKIE::SIMONWed Feb 14 1990 14:3826
    re: .310
    
    The Penguins didn't "steal" their colors from the Bruins; it goes like
    this:
    
    - The Steelers always wore some form of Black & Gold (with white)
    - The Pirates switched from black and white uniforms to modified black,
    white, with some gold in 1970 when they moved into Three Rivers; they
    modified the uniforms in the mid-1970's to the interchangeable black,
    gold, and white tops they wore through the 1979 World Series (and
    afterwards); the emphasis on the gold was partly due to the Steelers
    success in Pgh. and they (the Pirates) wanted the fans to identify with
    the winning Steelers.
    - During the 1980 Super Bowl (3 months after the Pirates had won the
    1979 World Series, the Penguins announced that they would switch from
    their blue and white uniforms to the black and gold ones for the same
    reasons the Pirates had; the Penguins wanted to be identified with a
    winning tradition and colors in Pgh.  In fact, the actual announcement
    was made during half-time of the Super Bowl when the network covering
    the game switched live to a group of 10 Penguins at a Mt. Washington
    restaurant/bar watching the game; a Penguins official announced at that
    time that the uniform switch would be made.
    
    Summary...while the Pens uniforms may be similar to the Bruins, they
    didn't "steal" the colors from Boston, but rather from the Steelers and
    Pirates.
5.312GENRAL::WADEI'm an excellent driver.....Wed Feb 14 1990 14:576
    'Saw,
    
    	Where is this wonderful place that doesn't broadcast
    	Giants' games!?   :^0
    
    Clay
5.313CAM::WAYRegulators...Mount UP!Wed Feb 14 1990 15:0519
Gee Claybone, I got mixed up.

It's not that they don't show Giants games.  They do, but they only
show three of them.

	Giants  16
	Broncos 13

	Giants  39
        Broncos 20

	Giants  14
        Broncos  7

Over, and over, and over again....

8^)

Chainsaw
5.314toooooooshay!GENRAL::WADEI'm an excellent driver.....Wed Feb 14 1990 15:141
    
5.315Every team in every sport should switch to black and gold.SHALOT::MEDVIDNow it's ACID ROCKWed Feb 14 1990 16:1619
    RE: .10
    
    The reply in .11 is correct.  However, when the Penguins did switch to
    Black and Gold, Boston protested saying that those were its colors. 
    The NHL laughed at the protest.  
    
    RE.11
    
    Didn't the Pirates have gold in their uniforms earlier than the 60s?  I
    thought I remember them having gold P's on their caps in the 50s (which
    is before my time so I can't be sure).  I know the Pirates once had sky
    blue in their uniforms, though I'm not sure when or for how long.
    
    Anyway, gold has always been a Pittsburgh sports color.  The Steelers
    and the Panthers both have had it since color-schemed uniforms came to
    be.  And, of course, one of Pittsburgh's many nicknames (both good and
    bad) is the Golden Triangle.
    
    	--dan'l
5.316AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacWed Feb 14 1990 16:593
    And then there is the case of the LA Kings forgoing the purple and gold
    (the colors normally associated with kings) in favor of the Raider
    silver and black.
5.317gold "P"COOKIE::SIMONWed Feb 14 1990 18:075
    re: .315
    
    The Pirates did have a gold "P" on the black caps they wore from the
    late 40's or 50's until mid-1970, so I guess technically they always 
    had some gold in their uniforms.   
5.318TransmissionBTOVT::AJA_MThe Pack is BackThu Feb 15 1990 12:3251
           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 5.307                     Official NFL topic                     307 of 317
ROULET::WHITEHAIR "Let it snow!"                     23 lines  14-FEB-1990 09:24
                     -< WHAT???  NO BROWNS GAME?  NO WAY! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    re: -2
    
    	Ok, here is the scoop as far as the transmission goes.....
    
>    	Currently, ABC/CBS transmit on two transponders...Telstar 1
>   & 2.  NBC transmits in the C-band...which has to be picked up
>   by a different type of feed horn (on the dish)(cost-aprox 2 - 500.00).
  
    This isn't the way it is nor has it ever been this way. CBS
    uplinks to Telestar 1 and 2, Comstar 4 and host of other SATELITES.
    During the football season if a certain NFC game can't be found
    on these Satelites than a search of Westar 5 or the Spacenet 1,2 or
    3 will cheer you up. ALL NFC games can be found on CBS Unscrambled
    except those games in which a AFC team is visting a NFC team. In
    this exception NBC has the broadcast rights and has in the past
    scrambled most of there Q band feeds. (BTW CBS and ABC broadcast in
    C BAND and NBC in Q band, NBC also has one C band transmission at
    Satcom F1R, transponder 8.) Q Band is kind of a option that you
    can purchase for your dish. If you got a Q band READY reciever
    than for a small fee of $500 you can catch all the AFC games that
    aren't scarmbled. (Last time I heard NBC was getting away from
    scrambling there football feeds.) For your money you get a duel 
    feed feedhorn and I believe two LNB's. 


  > Other transmissions, say by super stations and large
  > city ABC/CBS/NBC networks (ones that have commercials) can be blacked out.
    Probably the only time you'll ever see football game blacked out....
    is in the area of the game. You will never see this on Satelite.  
    Superstations only have rights to Pre-season games so I doubt
    you'd ever see a blackout.
        
  > Baltimore...black out most of their baseball transmissions for one
  > reason or another.
  
    HTS (Home Team Sports) is a scrambled network on Satelite. It can be 
    bought for around $15 bucks a week.  I doubt they've ever blacked out
    a sporting advent. There programing is much like Sportschannel, NESN,
    MSG, ESPN and others.
    


    Mark    
5.319Could you explain ?LUNER::BROOKSDrM : The Conscience Of SPORTSThu Feb 15 1990 15:009
    re .318
    
    Excusae me, but in Houston we used to get almost every football
    on CBS and NBC, except that sometimes we couldn't find Oilers games to 
    save our lives. And these would be the *home* games for Houston.
    
    Why was that ?
    
    Doc 
5.320PWRVAX::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Thu Feb 15 1990 15:584
       You said you could get football games in Houscum, that's why you
    couldn't get the Oilspots. Simple really.
       BTW, Home Team Sports carries Capitals, Orioles and Bullets games.
                                                 Denny
5.321Were they sell outs?SHALOT::MEDVIDNow it's ACID ROCKThu Feb 15 1990 16:137
    RE: .318
    
    Did you have a dish?  If you did, don't know why.  If you were just
    trying to pick it up off the local station, a game has to be sold out
    before it can be shown locally.  
    
    	--dan'l
5.322EARRTH::BROOKSDrM : The Conscience Of SPORTSThu Feb 15 1990 16:184
    No this was off the dish....one theory was that some games were
    transmitted via phone lines, hence no dish in the world would help,
    but I couldn't be sure. Could it be that another satillite had the
    games ?
5.323I'm no expert - I like playing around!ROULET::WHITEHAIRLet it snow!Thu Feb 15 1990 16:3629
    
    RE: Mark AJA, whatever.....
    
    	Geesh, can you get off my back now!  Holly cow, I never said
    that I was the expert.....as you are?
    
    	I don't want to get into a know it all match, but, all I said
    is that CBS and ABC transmit directly to Telestar...It is a direct
    transmit if you get no commercials, no anouncers, and you pick up
    the game 2 or 3 hours before game time.  This type of transmition
    can not be scrambled!  If it did, who would be able to use it?
    This is unlike the cable programs where the down link does the
    unscrambling.  
    
    	Reguarding the Super Stations....a mistake by me....I really
    someone would have gotten the idea.  Its the large city stations,
    ie; Boston, Chicago, LA, etc that actually transmit commercials
    that could scramble.  
    
    	Well then, I wonder what it means when I see
    
    		"BLACKOUT IN AFFECT FOR THIS PROGRAM"
    
    	Hmmmmm, It must mean that it isn't blacked out.?
    
    	In any rate, I really can't see the blackout that was mentioned
    really bothering many people.
    
    	Hal
5.324COMET::MONTGOMERYA BIG 8^)Thu Feb 15 1990 17:0214
Seem's that  I recall that next season the Networks are swappin games 
around....

The AFC West is going to be carried by CBS... we used to be NBC
The AFC central is going to NBC
and the AFC east.. who cares!!!  ;^)

I was thinking about a Ku band reciever but CBS can be picked up mostly
out west here by C band...

Does anyone know the exact Network coverage for next season????


monty
5.325Hmmmmm, NBC is the worst!ROULET::WHITEHAIRLet it snow!Thu Feb 15 1990 17:1018
    
    re:  Monty
    
    	Oh no, I certainly don't like the sound of that.  I hate NBC!
    I have to watch it on Satcom 2 (good reception but, they don't play
    the games every weekend) or I have to watch it on F1, as Mark said.
    The only thing wrong with this is that its soo low to the ground
    that I don't get very good reception at all, but, if I can't get
    the game anywhere else, I watch it with fuzz.
    
    	Mark, Ok, so I also got the C and the Ku band mixed up...but...
    what is the Q band???? 
    
    	Monty, How can you pick up Ku from a C band receiver?  Where
    do you find them???
    
    	Hal
    
5.326COMET::MONTGOMERYA BIG 8^)Thu Feb 15 1990 17:3918
    
>    	Monty, How can you pick up Ku from a C band receiver?  Where
>    do you find them???
    
 re:   	Hal
   
I was thinking of buying a Ku band reciever and feedhorn... I do not think
that you could change the feedhorn only since the I.F. freq is very
much different 70mhz as related to i think 200mhz or something like that...
Glenn would know more about this since he watches all the Chargers games...

Yeah... NBC really sips(tm) when it comes to coverage of games, I would
not wish any of their coverage on anyone but hey we won't have to put
up with them anymore...  for awhile....

monty
 

5.327AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacThu Feb 15 1990 17:443
    Are you sure about that AFC coverage, Monty?  I haven't heard anything
    about it.  Maybe some of the AFC west games will be on CBS because they
    will be playing NFC teams those days.
5.328PWRVAX::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Thu Feb 15 1990 17:543
       None of that stuff will be decided until the NFL signs a new TV
    contract.
                                             Denny
5.329GENRAL::GIBSONThu Feb 15 1990 19:165
    
    Correct, Denny. It is just speculation that the AFC will go to CBS and
    the NFC will go to NBC. I have also heard that ABC will give up Monday
    Night Football to NBC and pick up the AFC contract. Time will tell.
    
5.330Can't see CBS switching to the AFC.BTOVT::AJA_MThe Pack is BackFri Feb 16 1990 09:0616
    Anybody know what network had the best ratings???
    
    Hal, sorry if I sounded like I was riding you. This was not my
    intention. Q band is just a higher frequency that certain
    stations or networks use to transmit their programing. My
    Channel Master is Q ready. It will decode this frequency if
    I have the right set up outside. A couple of years ago I
    checked it out and it would of cost me $500.00 to have with
    my C band. If your reciever is not Q ready than it will cost
    a little more.
    
    The only thing I have ever seen Blacked out...was wrestlmannia stuff
    and some boxing matches however these can be bought and recieved
    with a dish.
    
    Mark
5.331No Officials Handbook, thoughFSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Fri Feb 16 1990 12:385
    I got a full set of the official NFL rules from Art McNally yesterday,
    so now I should be able to quote chapter and verse when a question
    comes up.
    
    John
5.332PWRVAX::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Fri Feb 16 1990 12:484
       John, cain you look up the section on the special rules favoring the
    Donks? Or is there an 18-page gap in the rules? I'll bet Art left that
    'secret' part out, didn't he?
                                      Denny
5.333Juniors Eligible for NFL DraftAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacFri Feb 16 1990 13:313
    The NFL has granted permission for juniors to enter the draft.  Major
    Harris has declared himself available.  Sounds like the talent in this
    year's draft got better practically over night.
5.334Get your picks quick...GOMETS::mccarthyMike McCarthy MRO4-2/C17 297-4531Fri Feb 16 1990 13:344
This year's draft is looking pretty good, but next year is going to stink
to high heaven.

Mike
5.335GENRAL::GIBSONFri Feb 16 1990 14:389
    
    Yep, Harris finally made it official. Hey Doc, it was reported last
    night on ESPN's Sportscenter that Harris ranks as "the 10th best QB in
    this year's draft". Apparently I'm not the only one that thinks he is
    highly over-rated. I don't think I can name 10 QBs that will be in this
    years' draft without looking them up.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.336PWRVAX::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Fri Feb 16 1990 14:392
       Major also advised Ware to come out this year.
                                                   Denny
5.337FRSBEE::BROOKSDrM : The Conscience Of SPORTSFri Feb 16 1990 14:549
    Tough decision for Andre. He he waits, barring injury, or a stinko
    senior year, he will be the top QB in the draft (knock on wood).
    
    However, he could be a 'slotted' player, if the rumors are true.
    
    There is definitely a lot of dollars riding on his decision, that's
    for sure. But will he get more if he leaves now, or waits ?
    
    Doc
5.338FREE::GOGUENI never saw a hearse pulling a UHaulFri Feb 16 1990 15:053
    Hmm, Harris and Ware -- and the Pats with the 3rd pick...........
    
    -- dg
5.339DEC in the NFLJUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Feb 16 1990 15:1762
    There is a cover story in the newest issue of Product Insight, a DEC
    product news magazine published by DEC, on DEC use in the NFL, titled
    in the cover, "Using a VAX Formation," and in the article "VAX Network
    Leading the League into the 1990s."
    
    The helmuts for 6 teams, Denver, Buffalo, S.F., S.D., Cleveland and
    Giants, were on the cover.  Four quotes from teams were highlighted in
    the article next to a picture of the teamss helmuts:
    
    "Football is still going to be football, regardless of computers, but
    we have become dependent on them for the success of our daily
    operations."  Troy Campagna, S.F. 49ers, information systems
    
    "Some reports that the computer can produce would take forever to do
    manually.  There's only one week between games and the coaches need to
    be prepared for every Sunday, so the reports are pretty important to
    them."  Ary Kalika, Denver Broncos, information systems
    
    "If we're on the road, we talk to another club over the network about
    accommodations, ticket requests, and even what the weather's like."
    Bill Consoli, L.A. Rams, information systems
    
    "The network has helped immensely.  It's much more reliable than the
    old (Western Unions's) TWX system.  The big advantage is that you 
    can go straight from doing something on your desk and send it 
    anywhere in the league."  George Hoffman, Cleveland Browns, 
    information system
    
    Some other interesting points:  The NFL makes info available to each
    club at the same time electronically so that the competitors receive it
    all at the same time.  A network extends across the country linking
    VAXes in each team's office and the league headquarter.
    
    Each team originally received one uVAX II but some have upgraded to
    uVAX 3600s.  "Some teams, such as the New York Giants and the Cleveland
    Browns, track players' weight patterns and training schedules; others
    like the Minnesota Vikings and the Los Angeles Rams, run sophisticated
    game analysis.  The NFL now invests close to a million dollars a year
    in Digital equipment and services."
    
    "Although the ALL-IN-1 messaging software carries memos more commonly
    associated with office information, the NFL uses the network for
    football activities.  Some of these include:
    
    * Exchange of player contracts
    * Balloting or Pro Bowl teams
    * Maintaining officials' schedules
    * Sharing of press releases
    * Processing Super Bowl information"
    
    "The main office conducts the NFL draft in April.  After a team
    representative chooses a player, the information is entered into the
    local VAXcluster.  A software program compiles facts about the player
    from the VAXcluster database, including college, position, personal
    characteristics.  The application formats the data and sends it out
    instantaneously to the 28 teams via the network."
    
    ....
    
    Check in our in your site library :) if you do not receive it directly.
    
    Charles
5.340Re:.-1JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Feb 16 1990 15:254
    Correction:  It was a Vikings helmut on the cover not a Charger's.
    They did it (also the quotes) according to who was in the playoffs.
    
    Charles
5.342AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacFri Feb 16 1990 16:512
    correction:  it's helmets not helmuts.  Helmuts are what are found in
    Cleveland's Dawg Pound ;^)
5.343helmets :) :)JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Feb 16 1990 17:131
    Yes, of course....
5.345Trademark Corrected - Sorry for the ErrorFSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Fri Feb 16 1990 18:1018
    I work pretty closely with the Patriots computer department in my
    statistician's job.  The MicroVax and ALL-IN-1 were a step out of
    the dark ages for the NFL.  Telex isn't much better than 19th century
    technology.
    
    We have a computerized stats system we've been using for the last
    5 seasons in parallel with our manual effort.  There was also a
    good system developed for the Bears that I saw when they came to
    play us in 1988.  The two best features of these systems have merged
    and a standard system was tested in the NFC Central this year. 
    After the success of its test at the Super Bowl, it looks like the
    NFC Central and AFC East will be the pilot sites for the system
    for next year.
    
    Unlike most years, it's going to be a busy off-season for me.
    
    John
    
5.346Whats in a NameCURRNT::ROWELLWCouchPotatoe? NotMe! PassTheBeer!Wed Feb 21 1990 12:573
    Can anyone tell me what the new name for the NFL conference is ?
    I seem to have some trouble accessing it.
    Thanks,    Wayne
5.347FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Feb 21 1990 13:053
    Same node as NFL, but it's now called AMERICAN_FOOTBALL
    
    John
5.348A little late for Packer fans.BTOVT::AJA_MThe Pack is BackFri Mar 02 1990 07:099
    The NFL has added TWO more wildcard teams to the play-off picture for
    next season. I expect one for the NFC and one for the AFC. It seems
    ABC signed a contract for around $900,000,000 that includes all
    Monday night games, plus one Super Bowl. They demanded more and
    the more appears to be at least one Wild card game a year through the
    years 90-94.
    
    The Pack
    
5.349CAM::WAYWith malice toward noneFri Mar 02 1990 10:2312
Speaking of the Pack...

I'm currently reading "Run to Daylight" by Vince Lombardi.

I would *highly* recommend this book to any football fan.  There
are few who will disagree with me when I say Lombardi was one
of the greatest coaches whoever lived, perhaps even the greatest
(although there are some who would debate that 8^))

Anyway, if you haven't read it, check it out...It's VERY interesting...

Chainsaw
5.350PWRVAX::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Fri Mar 02 1990 11:055
       They also added a week to the season so each team will get 1 week
    off. This will also limit the time between conference champeenships and
    the Super Bowl to 1 week instead of 2. This will play hell with fans
    trying to make arrangements to go.
                                       Denny
5.351Seven Blocks of GraniteSHIRE::FINEUC1Mon Mar 05 1990 12:4914
    re .349
    
    yup chainsaw,
    
    Run to Daylight is a good one.  
    
    Also of interest is the biography of Lombardi edited by Jerry Kramer
    called "Winning isn't Everything" (?).  It is basically a compilation
    of anecdotes from all his former collegues and players.
    
    I can never get over what a motivator Lombardi was.  He could get 'em
    believing anything....
    
    rick
5.352CAM::WAYUSS Spadefish, SS 411Mon Mar 05 1990 12:519
The neat thing Rick, is that so many of his former players who
have excelled in *life*, have attributed their success to
having played under Lombardi.

Not to get on a tangent, but I think it should be required
reading for all management types around here....

latered,
Chainsaw
5.353Run to DaylightROULET::BARBIERILord take my heart, for I cannot give it.Mon Mar 12 1990 16:3313
      Hi All,
    
        I read 'Run to Daylight' many years ago.  Yeah, that was
        a good book!  I still have it; I think it's a first printing.
        I've read the Kramer books too including Distant Replay.
    
        Lombardi sure was something.  It would be interesting how
        he would have adapted to the changing football player (how
        they are as people).
    
        Kramer wrote a book on Lombardi that was real good too.
    
                                            Tony
5.3547983::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Tue Mar 13 1990 09:475
       Instant replay has survived for another year.
       The Raiders are moving back to Oakland after their lease expires in
    2 years. Al Davis ends up stiffing Irwindale for $10million
    (non-refundable).
                                                 Denny
5.355GENRAL::GIBSONTue Mar 13 1990 13:283
    
    He didn't "stiff" anyone. There was never any committment to go to
    Irwindale. 
5.356what a guyHPSRAD::SANTOSA monster is being built.Tue Mar 13 1990 13:576
    Of course he didn't stiff anyone, and now that he has a handsome
    wallet he is going to fund an investigation into the "Immaculate
    Reception" play for the good of the league.

Chuck
5.357AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacTue Mar 13 1990 14:197
    The replay rule is still in effect with a couple of small changes.  The
    replay official will not be able to hear the broadcasters while
    reviewing the play in question.  All replays must be resolved within 2
    minutes.
    
    CBS will again be carrying the NFC while NBC gets the the AFC.  ABC,
    NBC, and CBS will each get a Super Bowl in the next three years.
5.358CAM::WAYTake her deep, rig for depth chargeTue Mar 13 1990 14:416
5.359COMET::MONTGOMERYA BIG 8^)Tue Mar 13 1990 15:057
    
>    CBS will again be carrying the NFC while NBC gets the the AFC.  ABC,


Double DAM!!!!!


5.360Gonna make the 2 minute drill last 2 minutes.SNDCSL::HAUSRATHWho,Stones in '89. Zep in '90Wed Mar 14 1990 16:2015
    
    I heard that in order to shorten NFL games to less than 3 hours the NFL
    was considering and/or had adopted the following changes:
    
    1)  Clock starts with the placement of the ball following out of bounds
        plays (don't know about incompletions)
    
    2)  Halftime reduced from 15 to 12 minutes.  
    
    #1 could sure have an impact on the end of half and end of game. 
    
    Has anyone else heard anything about these changes? 
    
    
    /Jeff
5.3617983::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Wed Mar 14 1990 16:274
       It just applies to 'some' out of bounds plays, the paper wasn't
    specific. It also excludes the last 2 minutes of the 1st half and the
    last 5 of the 2nd half.	
                                 DENNY
5.362FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Mar 14 1990 16:289
    I can tell you about the impact of the changes:
    
    1.  3 fewer minutes to complete the half-time summary
    2.  3 fewer minutes to hit the men's room and get a snack at half
    time before the second half begins.  And believe me, when you're
    rooted to one spot standing (like I am) for 3 hours with the only
    chance to take a break being halftime, 3 minutes is very significant.
    
    John
5.363AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacWed Mar 14 1990 16:406
    Right, 3 minute reduction in half time, the refs will signal the clock
    to start on some out of bounds plays when they decide that both teams
    look ready (with the exceptions Denny noted), there are also some
    changes about starting the clock after change of possession.  While
    they are going to enact these time saving changes, they will also be
    adding a few more minutes of commercial time.
5.364Why don't they just cut out the TV timeouts? 8^)AXIS::ROBICHAUDI cain't be bought...outWed Mar 14 1990 16:451
    
5.3657983::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Wed Mar 14 1990 16:483
       Sounds good to me slasher, 'specially when it's about 10 degrees out
    there.
                                       Denny
5.366CAM::WAYThis ain' no technological breakdown...Wed Mar 14 1990 17:1612
Personally, I think they should can that *&^*&%(%ing instant replay
rule.

Get the refs to be as good as the umps in baseball (who over many more
plays average approx 95% correct calls), get rid of the replay and
the pansy refs who are afraid to overrule.

Cut the TV timeouts.  I get sick of seeing 55 Subaru commercials in
a row during one quarter, and 55 Mich Dry commercials in the next.

JMHO,
'Saw
5.367Paul Tagliabuck?NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Mar 14 1990 17:2613
    
    Put another asterisk in the record books.  The new rule, yet another
    structural change, will result in fewer plays per game while commercial
    time-outs remain the same.  Changing the quarters to 13-14 minutes
    each would have the same overall effect.
    
    While I'm not big into TV cynicism (because I do enjoy watching sports
    on TV), the NFL's gall is incredible.  They've actually taken to
    changing the rules to correct a problem caused by instant replay and
    increased TV timeouts.  Am I allowed to bash Don Shula for this one? 
    
    glenn
    
5.368BSS::G_MCINTOSHWed Mar 14 1990 18:236
    I heard on KOA that while they're cutting time here and there, they're
    adding more commercials so they can make more money.
    
    Live from Charger Central...
    
    Glenn
5.369GENRAL::GIBSONWed Mar 14 1990 19:3916
    
    Rules reportedly being discussed:
    
    dump the in the grasp rule but defenders can't touch the QB after he
    throws the ball (closing one Pandora's box and opening another, how is
    	a player going to immediately stop when the QB releases the ball?)
    
    one foot inbounds for a legal catch (stupid! these are pros, keep it as
    	is)
    
    intentional grounding will be legal (stupid! if it is at any time.
    	there will no longer be any sacks, as soon as a QB is about to
    	go down he will throw the ball into the ground to not lose yards)
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.370anti-lock brakes Hoot! :^)GENRAL::WADEI'm an excellent driver.....Wed Mar 14 1990 19:531
    
5.371Marino wants out!FSCORE::PAVEZKAI didn't start the fire....did U?Thu Mar 15 1990 09:564
    Heard today that Dan Marino wants to be traded to one of 4 teams...one
    being Chicago.  He says he can't get along with Shula.
    
    pete
5.372GRANPA::DFAUSTNew Sears=Old K-MartThu Mar 15 1990 11:105
    Gee... From watching the NFL you would never know that intentional
    grounding wasn't legal.   :*}
    
    Dennis
    
5.373Dan Marino would look great in the Black & Silver!SASE::SZABOThu Mar 15 1990 11:334
    I wonder if Uncle Al will snatch-up Marino?  I could see this
    happening.......
    
    Hawk
5.374FSCORE::PAVEZKAI didn't start the fire....did U?Thu Mar 15 1990 11:3911
    re Marino
    
    The 3 other teams that he would accept a trade to are Indianapolis,
    Pittsburgh and the Raiders (wherever they may be).
    
    other news
    
    Eric Dickerson has been given permission to pursue a trade deal with
    the Giants or Redskins.
    
    pete
5.375Would make Chicago very tough next year.SNDCSL::HAUSRATHWho,Stones in '89. Zep in '90Thu Mar 15 1990 11:579
    
    re: Marino..
    
    Can't get along with Shula, but he want's to play for DITKA!  
    
    Boy that makes a lot of sense.  Has this guy taken one to many hits to
    the head or what?  
    
    /Jeff
5.376SASE::SZABOThu Mar 15 1990 11:593
    It's not so much that he doesn't get along with Shula, it's Don's son
    that Marino is at odds with.  And like any dad, he'll back his son
    first......
5.377GRANPA::DFAUSTNew Sears=Old K-MartThu Mar 15 1990 12:1611
    Don's son is now the Offensive Coordinator in Dallas, so I don't think
    that he is Marino's problem. 
    
    Another team in the rumor mill is Philadelphia, and they are talking of
    a Marino for Cunningham trade. I can't see either team doing it.
    Randall woudn't fit very well in the structured Miami offense, and the
    Eagles offense is shaped around the mobile QB, something Marino's never
    been accused of.
    
    Dennis
    
5.378AXIS::ROBICHAUDI cain't be bought...outThu Mar 15 1990 12:318
	You want to talk TV cynicism, how 'bout the extra wildcard game added?
ABC has to dish out more money for Monday Night Football even though the ratings
have dropped over the years.  ABC says to Mr. Tagliabue "Hey Tags we want 
sumpin' to sweeten da pot."  so the Commish says  "How 'bout a playoff game?"
ABC says  "That'll do 'er Tags.  Deal."   So we get another wildcard game.
Maybe it's just coincidence ABC is gonna do the game?  Naaah...

				/Don
5.379Is the list growing since he spoke?FTMUDG::REEDOklahoma State athletic supporterThu Mar 15 1990 13:374
    I heard Denver is another city Marino would play in.
    
    Cowboy
    
5.380Maybe Macho Man to do play-by-play (oooh yeah!)CAM::WAYThis ain' no technological breakdown...Thu Mar 15 1990 13:487
It's a proven fact that ABC MNF's ratings have dropped because USA
network is carrying "WWF Prime Time".  If ABC wants to up their
ratings, they should get Jesse The Body Ventura to do color for the
game....

You heard it here first,
Chainsaw
5.3817983::RIEUWe're Taxachusetts...AGAIN!Thu Mar 15 1990 13:593
       According to a Texas paper (Houston Post) Andre Ware has decided to
    enter the draft.
                                              Denny
5.382USRCV1::COLOTTIRBart,your alive,and buck naked too!Thu Mar 15 1990 14:144
    Hey Hoot- can you see Marino throwing to Swervin' Mervyn and
    Willie Gault?? We be jammin'!!!!
    			Raider_Rich
    
5.383AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacThu Mar 15 1990 14:256
5.384PFSVAX::JACOBChuck U. FarleyThu Mar 15 1990 14:2920
     <<< Note 5.375 by SNDCSL::HAUSRATH "Who,Stones in '89. Zep in '90" >>>
                 -< Would make Chicago very tough next year. >-

    
    >>re: Marino..
    
    >>Can't get along with Shula, but he want's to play for DITKA!  
    
    >>Boy that makes a lot of sense.  Has this guy taken one to many hits to
    >>the head or what?  
    
    >>/Jeff

    
    Nah, it's the result of too much nose candy during his college days
    starting to catch up with him.
    
    JaKe
    
    
5.385Huh?? What did I do NOW????TOLKIN::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Thu Mar 15 1990 14:461
    
5.386AXIS::ROBICHAUDI cain't be bought...outThu Mar 15 1990 15:194
    	Gee BigMac, it's good to see the league being honest about
    prostituting the extra playoff game for more money.  8^)
    
    				/Don
5.387More steroid testing?AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacThu Mar 15 1990 15:465
    Another proposition on the floor is to change the policy regarding
    steriod testing.  Instead of the one time, pre-season testing done last
    year, steriod testing will be performed on a random basis as much as 4
    times/year.  It is thought that this way it would be harder to mask the
    use of steriods from the tests.
5.388GENRAL::GIBSONThu Mar 15 1990 16:117
    
    RAIDER_Rich,
    You forgot about Tim Brown, Alexander and Dyal. Yeah, we can dream but
    I think that is about as far to reality as it will come.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.389BYE-BYE ERIC (yea, right)26695::MCCULLOUGHLindsey's dad - born 01/01/90Tue Mar 20 1990 18:077
    Eric Dickerson announced yesterday that he had lost his enthusiasm for
    the game, and was retiring.  He said his body couldn't take the
    punishment any more.
    
    Now the question is, will this work out as his ploy to get traded?
    
    =Bob=
5.390AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacTue Mar 20 1990 18:319
    Dickerson has said he will retire if Indy doesn't trade him.  He
    equated playing for the Colts with playing Russian Roulette - sooner or
    later he is going to die.  It was reported in today's Austin
    American-Statesman that the Oilers have been added to the list of teams
    he would like to be traded to.  I can't see this happening as Houston
    needs defensive help and doesn't know what to do with all of the
    running backs they have now.
    
    Irsay has said there is no way they will trade Eric.
5.391NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Mar 20 1990 19:226
    
    Irsay played that game before with John Elway and lost.  I think he's
    wiser (although maybe not smarter) now.
    
    glenn
    
5.392Dickerson is outta thereMURRI::ROBINSONknowledge is goodTue Mar 20 1990 20:029
    
    	Somewhere John Robinson is smiling....
    
    	I remember last year that Dickerson said something to the
    	effect of "John wanted to mess with me, so he sent me to
    	Indianapolis.  Well, Indianapolis is a great place.  I like
    	it here."
    
    	I guess not... 
5.3937983::RIEUIn search of...Mr Trout!Wed Mar 21 1990 10:133
       Irsay says if Dickerson quits he'll owe the Colts $1 million.
    Supposedly it's in his contract.
                                     Denny
5.394He caint, or I'll sue!!!!!!!!!!!RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYou find one in every car...Wed Mar 21 1990 12:237
    Hey, he caint retire, I own him in FFL_C, and as his owner, I refuse
    to let him retire.  If he does, Eric will hear from my attorneys.
    
    Hrumph.
    
    JD - Owner/Manager/Chief-Hokey-Fa-Nokey Pernicious Gits Football
    Club...
5.395FTMUDG::REEDGive smix smegma a chance....Fri Mar 23 1990 11:497
    Jim Kelly signed a 7-year $20M contract to be the highest paid NFL
    player.  Where does Buffalo come up with their big $$$?  If this
    sets a new standard for NFL players what would a real winner (Montana)
    sign for next time?
    
    Cowboy
    
5.396AXIS::ROBICHAUDDockers, pants for |CENSORED|sFri Mar 23 1990 12:0112
5.3977983::RIEUIn search of...Mr Trout!Fri Mar 23 1990 12:122
       Each team will get $30+ MILLION per year from TV.
                                    Denny
5.398OURGNG::J_WARDLEBetter get a T-O Baby!!!Fri Mar 23 1990 12:274
    Now Jim Kelly is not just the most overrated QB in football, he's the
    Most overrated overpaid QB in football.
    
    JoJ
5.399FTMUDG::REEDMember, Smegma Flickers AssociationFri Mar 23 1990 12:327
    Look for Thurman Thomas to ask for the big bucks next.  Isn't his
    contract a yearly setup because of his suspect knee?  He has reason
    for getting mega-bucks since his rushing/recieving yards were so
    impressive last year.
    
    Cowboy
    
5.400JULIET::MAY_BRWimp football rules!Fri Mar 23 1990 12:557
    
    Montana doesn't have to worry.  He jkust signed a deal with Sega
    for a football video game sponsorship for something like $5mil.
    He makes 3-4 times his salary in promotions now.
    
    Bruce
    
5.401AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacFri Mar 23 1990 15:113
    The Bills probably looked at the number of fans Kelly has been putting
    in the seats and decided to give him a cut.  Attendance in Buffalo has
    picked up substantially since Kelly was signed.
5.402TNT: NBA, NFL, what's next?AUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacFri Mar 23 1990 15:134
    It was recently announced that TNT would be carrying the NFL games
    instead of TBS.  Although TNT is available to fewer households, TNT
    uses local advertising thus is expected to be a better revenue
    generator than TBS.
5.403FTMUDG::DUGGANFri Mar 23 1990 15:195
    And, this forces a lot of cable companies to install TNT.
    
    I'd rather see a lot of cable companies dump TBS.
    
    ...mike
5.404GENRAL::WADEThat midnight train is whinin' low..Fri Mar 23 1990 15:555
    I may be wrong, there's always a first :^), but I don't recall
    ever having watched an NFL game that TBS (the Ted Turner station
    right?) aired.
    
    Claybone
5.405fans want FrankCNTROL::CHILDSOh well another quality lossFri Mar 23 1990 16:276
    
    but Mac, those same people who fill the stadium in newspaper poll
    last year vote by majority to give the job to Reich after his three
    game win streak.....
    
    mike
5.406GENRAL::GIBSONFri Mar 23 1990 16:594
    
    Clay,
    TBS just bought 8 Sunday night games for this coming season. Turner 
    then decided to show them on TNT instead of TBS.
5.407OURGNG::J_WARDLEBetter get a T-O Baby!!!Mon Mar 26 1990 12:039
>>    but Mac, those same people who fill the stadium in newspaper poll
>>    last year vote by majority to give the job to Reich after his three
>>    game win streak.....
    
    
    Yeah, but Mike, it's just like Giants fans that wanted Scott Brunner.
    Except Reich is good.
    
    JoJ
5.408good shot there partner! ;^)CNTROL::CHILDSBig Ten bounced by ACCMon Mar 26 1990 12:126
    
    Mac, stay in Texas will ya!!
    
    ;^)
    
    mike
5.409UPI: Mandarich says body built by desire, not steroidsJUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Mar 30 1990 14:1554
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!lll-winken!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football
Subject: Mandarich says body built by desire, not steroids
Keywords: college football, football, men's college, men's professional
Message-ID: <Umandarich_e1@clarinet.com>
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Codes: ysfcdxx., ysfpdxx., xxxxxxxx
 
 
	LANSING, Mich. (UPI) -- Former Michigan State tackle Tony Mandarich
has told a Lansing newspaper he built his massive body with ``desire''
and not illegal steriods as reported in the Detroit News.
	In Detroit, The News said Friday it stands by the original story
and disputed remarks by Mandarich in his interview with the Lansing
State Journal.
	In the March 21 story former players told the News steroid activity
was common during Mandarich's collegiate career, which peaked with the
1987 Rose Bowl season.
	``The article didn't surprise
Thursday. ``This will go on my whole career. It's like a plague that's
labeled me. I have no proof except for medical records. People think
there is no explanation for being 6-6, 300 pounds, strong and fast -- no
excuse for it unless you're supposedly taking drugs.
	``My answer to that is, what gets you there is desire, how badly
you want something.''
	Mandarich, now a player with the Green Bay Packers of the National
Football League, said he passed a steroid test several times while he
was at MSU.
	Mandarich also told the State Journal he did not learn of The News
story until a day after it was published. But the News said Mandarich
was given detailed accounts of the story several days earlier by his
agent, Vern Sharbaugh of Cleveland, and by the manager of an East
Lansing bodybuilding gym used by Mandarich.
	``We gave Tony Mandarich numerous opportunities to talk to us
before the story was published,'' Bob Giles, publisher and executive
editor of the News, said Thursday. ``We find it unusual that he waited
this long to say anything. We would invite him to sit down with our
reporters and go over the story line by line.''
	Jeff Case, a former Spartans player who said he had obtained
seriods from Mandarich and had been injected with them by Mandarich and
at least one of his roommates, called the News' story ``totally
accurate.''
	``There's no change in my mind whatsoever,'' Case said. 
	The News said its story was written after more than 100 interviews,
on and off the record, with players, coaches, parents, physicians and
police.
5.410UPI: Falcons might deal for WareJUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Mar 30 1990 17:4363
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football,clari.sports.top
Subject: Falcons might deal for Ware
Keywords: football, men's professional
Message-ID: <Ufbn-ware_e1@clarinet.com>
Date: 30 Mar 90 18:39:41 GMT
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	HOUSTON (UPI) -- Atlanta would consider trading the No. 1 pick in
the upcoming NFL draft to take Heisman Trophy-winning quarterback Andre
Ware, Falcons Coach Jerry Glanville said.
	Glanville said he will work out the former University of Houston
player in Houston next week. Ware is among 28 non-seniors coming out
early for the April 22-23 NFL draft.
	Glanville said he believes Ware is a certain early pick in the
first round.
	``I think somebody will want to move up to take (Illinois
quarterback) Jeff George, and we could still end up getting Ware,''
Glanville said in an interview published Friday in The Houston Post.
	The Falcons apparently have cooled on Alabama linebacker Keith
McCants, who had been considered the most likely No. 1 pick in the
draft.
	George, another junior coming out early, is high on the list of the
New York Jets and New England, which will pick second and third,
respectively.
	Glanville, who will install a red gun offense at Atlanta, is
interested in Ware because of his run-and-shoot background at Houston.
The two offenses are similar except for one aspect -- the quarterback in
the red gun operates from the shotgun.
	The Falcons, 3-13 last season, are in need of help on both sides of
the ball, although Chris Miller, a first-round pick in 1987, is
considered to be one of the NFL's rising young quarterbacks.
	Atlanta has three of the first 27 picks, with the first, 20th --
acquired from Washington in a 1989 trade -- and 27th, the Falcons' own
second-round selection.
	``Ware will be gone by our second pick in the first round,''
Glanville said.
	There are only 25 first-round selections this year because Dallas,
Denver and Phoenix made 1989 supplemental draft picks that cost them No.
1 selections.
	``I think this will be the greatest draft ever,'' said Oilers Coach
Jack Pardee, who coached Ware at UH and succeeded Glanville at the
Oilers' helm after last season. He has expressed interest in acquiring
Ware.
	``I'd be very surprised if Andre is still there when we get around
to pick,'' he said.
	The Oilers, with the 15th choice overall, need help most on
defense, but would be hard-pressed to pass up Ware as the ``best
available athlete,'' Pardee said.
	Ware threw for 4,699 yards and 46 touchdowns last season.
	Cody Carlson, the Oilers' backup behind quarterback Warren Moon,
does not have a contract for 1980 and has asked to be traded. The Oilers
did not make him eligible for Plan B free agency.
5.411UPI: Plan B signingsJUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokSun Apr 01 1990 18:51116
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (United Press International)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.football
Subject: NFL Plan B Free Agent Signings
Keywords: football, men's professional
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	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Team-by-team list of Plan B free agent signings
(player, position, former team):
                               _N_F_C
                             _A_t_l_a_n_t_a
	Jackie Cline, DE, Miami; Tracy Johnson, RB, Houston; Ronnie Lee, T,
Miami; Ben Utt, G, Indianapolis
                             _C_h_i_c_a_g_o
	Kurt Becker, G, LA Rams
                              _D_a_l_l_a_s
	Tommie Agee, RB, Kansas City; Louis Cheek, G, Miami; Terrence
Cooks, LB, New England; Antonio Gibson, DB, New Orleans; Rod Harris, WR,
New Orleans; Greg Johnson, G, Miami; Walter Johnson, LB, New Orleans;
Keith Jones, RB, Cleveland; Dennis McKinnon, WR, Chicago; Jay Novacek,
TE, Phoenix; Lybrant Robinson, LB, Washington; Tony Slaton, G, LA Rams;
Vinson Smith, LB, Pittsburgh; Anthony Spears, DT, Houston; James
Washington, DB, LA Rams; Mike Williams, WR, Detroit; Curtis Wilson, C,
New England
                             _D_e_t_r_o_i_t
	Mark Duckens, DE, NY Giants; William Judson, CB, Miami; Aubrey
Matthews, WR, Green Bay; Herb Welch, DB, Washington; Eric Wilkerson, RB,
Pittsburgh
                            _G_r_e_e_n_ _B_a_y
	Aaron Chubb, LB, New England; James Cribbs, DE, Detroit; Donnie
Dee, TE, Seattle; Paul Frazier, RB, New Orleans; Dale Hatcher, P, LA
Rams; William Harris, TE, Tampa Bay; Jerry Holmes, CB, Detroit; Flip
Johnson, WR, Buffalo; Shawn Miller, DT, LA Rams; George Yarno, C,
Houston.
                             _L_A_ _R_a_m_s
	Hank Ilesic, P, San Diego; Moe Milinichik, G, Detroit; Curt Warner,
RB, Seattle
                            _M_i_n_n_e_s_o_t_a
	Cornell Burbage, WR, Dallas; Ira Hillary, WR, Cincinnati; Shawn
Knight, DE, Phoenix; Robert Lyons, DB, Cleveland; Doug Marrone, G, New
Orleans; Harry Newsome, P, Pittsbrugh; Andy Schillinger, WR, Phoenix;
Adam Schreiber, C, NY Jets; Ken Stills, DB, Green Bay; Craig Wolfley, G,
Pittsburgh
                            _N_Y_ _G_i_a_n_t_s
	Howard Feggins, DB, New England; Bob Mrosko, TE, Houston
                           _P_h_i_l_a_d_e_l_p_h_i_a
	Harper Le Bel, TE, Seattle
                             _P_h_o_e_n_i_x
	Tracey Eaton, S, Houston; Bill Lewis, C, LA Raiders; Lorenzo Lynch,
CB, Chicago; Jeff Walker, DT, New Orleans.
                          _S_a_n_ _F_r_a_n_c_i_s_c_o
	Greg Cox, S, NY Giants; Hanford Dixon, CB, Cleveland; Wayne
Radloff, C, Atlanta; John Shannon, DT, Chicago; Fred Smerlas, NT,
Buffalo; Dave Waymer, DB, New Orleans
                            _T_a_m_p_a_ _B_a_y
	Adam Bob, LB, NY Jets; Evan Cooper, DB, Atlanta; Eric Everett, DB,
Philadelphia; Rodney Rice, DB, New England
                            _W_a_s_h_i_n_g_t_o_n
	Mark Adickes, G, Kansas City; John Brandes, TE, Indianapolis; Tom
Brown, RB, Miami; Brad Edwards, DB, Minnesota; James Geathers, DE, New
Orleans; Ron Middleton, TE, Cleveland; Walter Stanley, WR-KR, Detroit;
James Wilder, RB, Tampa Bay
	Don Smith, RB, Tampa Bay; Rick Tuten, P, Philadelphia
                            _C_l_e_v_e_l_a_n_d
	Mike Baab, C, New England; Raymond Clayborn, CB, New England; Larry
McGrew, LB, New England; Ken Rose, LB, NY Jets; Ralph Tamm, G,
Washington; Rhondy Weston, DE, Tampa Bay
                            _C_i_n_c_i_n_n_a_t_i
	Mike Barber, WR, Phoenix; Paul Palmer, RB, Dallas
                              _D_e_n_v_e_r
	Ty Allert, LB, Philadelphia; Lorenzo Hampton, RB, Miami; David
Little, TE, Philadelphia; Mark Mraz, DE, LA Raiders; Elliot Smith, DB,
San Diego; Chris Verhulst, TE, Houston
                             _H_o_u_s_t_o_n
	David Arnold, DB, Pittsburgh; Bernard Ford, WR, Dallas; Carl Harry,
WR, Washington; Terry Kinard, S, NY Giants; Leander Knight, DB, NY Jets;
Gerald McNeil, WR-KR, Cleveland
                           _K_a_n_s_a_s_ _C_i_t_y
	Jeff Donaldson, S, Houston; Peter Shorts, DE, New England; David
Ward, LB, New England; Frank Winters, C, NY Giants
                            _L_A_ _R_a_i_d_e_r_s
	Ron Brown, WR-KR, LA Rams; Ron Burton, LB, Phoenix; Joe Campbell,
LB, San Diego; Max Montoya, G, Cincinnati; George Streeter, DB, Chicago
                              _M_i_a_m_i
	Donnie Elder, CB-KR, Tampa Bay; Kerry Glenn, DB, NY Jets; Cliff
Odom, LB, Indianapolis; Tony Paige, FB, Detroit; Mike Reichenbach, LB,
Philadelphia; Karl Wilson, DE, Phoenix
                           _N_e_w_ _E_n_g_l_a_n_d
	George Adams, RB, NY Giants; Ernest Gibson, CB, Miami; Richard
Harvey, LB, Buffalo; Ilia Jarostchuk, LB, Phoenix; Damian Johnson, G, NY
Giants; Zeke Mowatt, TE, NY Giants; Bob White, C, Dallas.
                             _N_Y_ _J_e_t_s
	Glenn Antrum, WR, New England; Mark Boyer, TE, Indianapolis; Travis
Curtis, S, Minnesota; Pat Kelly, TE, Denver; Joe Kolhbrand, LB, New
Orleans; Trevor Matich, C, Detroit; Emanuel McNeil, NT, New England;
Brett Miller, T, San Diego; Tom Rehder, T, New England; Dave Zawatson,
T, Chicago
                            _P_i_t_t_s_b_u_r_g_h
	Billy Griggs, TE, NY Jets
                            _S_a_n_ _D_i_e_g_o
	Ronnie Harmon, RB, Buffalo; John Kidd, P, Buffalo; Joe Mickles, RB,
Washington; Bruce Plummer, S, Indianapolis; Mark Rodenhauser, C,
Minnesota; Thomas Sanders, RB, Chicago; Tom Toth, G, Miami
                             _S_e_a_t_t_l_e
	Dave Ahrens, LB, Miami; Rick Donnelly, P, Atlanta; Ron Heller, TE,
Atlanta
5.4127983::RIEUIn search of...Mr Trout!Mon Apr 02 1990 09:104
       Pats picked up Jamie Morris of Ayer, Mass. He was a Plan B from the
    'Skins. I watched him and Joe play in H.S. Jamie was better. Hope he
    gets to play more than on kick returns..
                                         denny
5.413Splain Dis PleaseSHALOT::MEDVIDhe buys love to sell tomorrowMon Apr 02 1990 09:2312
    RE: .410
    
    Somebody explain somethin'.  If Atlanta has cooled on McCants, and Ware
    is the man they want, why don't they just use their first pick to take
    him?
    
    Just don't seem logical to listen to all the other teams saying, "Well,
    he'll probably go mid-round."  If he's the guy you want, screw opinion
    and select him.  Why would you trade down and take a chance at missing
    him?
    
    	--dan'l
5.414FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Apr 02 1990 09:3113
    One reason is that teams rate players by best athlete overall and
    best player by position.  There's a school of thought that says
    you take the best overall player regardless of position, and if
    you have to reach down to get a player (such as the Falcons with
    Andre Ware), you aren't really getting full value for the pick.
    If Andre Ware isn't really the best football player in the draft
    and isn't going to go until later in the round, it makes more sense
    for the Falcons to trade their top pick to another team, try to
    get the pick that will allow them to get Ware for his true value
    and pick up some other picks besides.  Opinion has nothing to do
    with it.
    
    John
5.415Best Available NobodySHALOT::MEDVIDhe buys love to sell tomorrowMon Apr 02 1990 10:2815
    Yeah, I know all that.  But look at all the "best available athletes"
    that were washouts and all the great players that came as late-round
    picks.  That best available athlete stuff just doesn't pan out.
    
    Analogy:  Say I run a construction company and I have $30,000 to buy a
    vehicle.  I can use that money to buy a Cadillac or a Ford dump truck. 
    The Cadillac is the "best available vehicle" for that money, but the
    dump truck is what I need make my business successful.  If I know it's
    what I need and I'm convinced it's gonna make me successful, I gotta
    select it regardless of other available merchandise.
    
    Is that a fair analogy or am I mixing apples and oranges.  What do I
    know about business; I was an English major.
    
    	--dan'l
5.416CAM::WAYOutfielder in the BourbonMon Apr 02 1990 10:5310
Vince Lombardi was one of the big proponents of "get the best
athlete" in the draft.  I think he fared well with the philosophy.

Atlanta appears to need help all over, and at this point, I think
they should just grab whatever they can get with that first round
pick.  They'll be able to pick up a QB later on perhaps....

I may not know what I'm talking about either ;^)

Chainsaw
5.417FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Apr 02 1990 11:1310
    re: .415
    
    I don't agree with the best available athlete either but I do agree
    with getting full value for the pick.  If Andre Ware is in their
    judgment going to be available for a late #1 or later pick then
    they are foolish to spend the number 1 pick in the entire draft
    on him.  They should trade down and get some value for that pick
    in addition to drafting Ware later.
        
    John
5.418COMET::JOHNSTONnamby-pamby bedwetting WHAT?!!?Mon Apr 02 1990 11:1435
5.419GRANPA::DFAUSTNew Sears=Old K-MartMon Apr 02 1990 11:2013
    
    Did anybody listen to WFAN about 8 AM Sunday morning? They announced
    that the Jets had called an 8:30 pess conference to announce that they
    had traded Ken O'Brien & 2 first round draft choices to Miami for Dan
    Marino. They had folks calling in and sounding like they were going to
    jump out of windows. They finally announced that it was an April Fool's
    gag (as if that wasn't apparent), and then went on discussing other
    gags that were proposed but not implemented. Leading that list was the
    Knicks firing Stu Jackson. That one was discarded because it was too
    beleivable, will probably happen soon, and would not upset anyone.
    
    Dennis
    
5.420COMET::JOHNSTONnamby-pamby bedwetting WHAT?!!?Mon Apr 02 1990 11:3017
5.421NO joke!7983::RIEUIn search of...Mr Trout!Mon Apr 02 1990 12:273
       According to yesterdays Globe Toni Eason will probably be the Jest
    starter!
                                          Denny
5.422AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Mon Apr 02 1990 13:302
    The order you are chosen in the draft also has a lot to do with how
    much you will be paid.
5.423IAMOK::AHEARNRams vs. Bengals in SB XXVMon Apr 02 1990 13:4613
    RE: Atlanta and Andre Ware,
    
    I'm not sure why the Falcons are interested in Ware at all.  Not that
    he isn't a quality player, but so is Chris Miller.  Miller was a first
    round pick in what, '87?  I think they should trade down in the first
    round, but not to get Ware...to get extra picks, a veteran and help
    where they need it (DB, DL, OL.....even another RB)!!
    
    What are the chances that Glanville is using this 'interest' in Ware as
    a smokescreen?
    
    
    Nelly
5.424one ideaCNTROL::CHILDSPudgy's is BACK, free eats tonightMon Apr 02 1990 13:498
    
    My guess is that maybe they feel Miller is fragile Nelly....
    
    I can't recall him be healthy for a full season yet...
    
    mike
    
    
5.425Don't ask whySAGE::ROSSNoting Lambada-styleWed Apr 04 1990 12:475
Does anyone have any background information on a recent NFL player
named Quentin Walker?   Evidently, he played for the Cardinals for
2 years and then Tampa Bay for 1 before tearing an achilles tendon.

Graduated from Virginia, probably 5 years or so ago.
5.426But every word of this is true, no bullfeces, really!CAM::WAYOutfielder in the BourbonWed Apr 04 1990 13:537
I went to college with Quentin Walker.  He was a tuba player, and
he now manages Edwards Food Warehouse in Enfield, CT.

Somehow I don't think this is the Quentin Walker that you're interested
in....

Chainsaw
5.427FTMUDG::REEDOklaSt--#29 NCAA Wrestling ChampionshipThu Apr 05 1990 16:4214
    Satellite dish gurus:
    
    I hope to have a satellite system going before the nexted kickoff.
    Howsabout some input on where some of the NFL (and college) teams
    can be found.  Some of the info that would be helpful is:
    
    Is Ku band necessary?
    Which teams require a descrambler?
    Where are certain teams found? (Buffalo and Detroit in particular)
    
    
    Living too far from civilization for cable/network TV
    
    Cowboy
5.428FTMUDG::DUGGANThu Apr 05 1990 17:247
    Ku is neceassary for NBC (AFC) games, since they have been exclusively
    on Ku for about four years now.
    
    I don't know what bands are scrambled.
    
    ...mike
     
5.429Not sure a dish is all that helpful for footballSHALOT::HUNTA single ping please, Vasily.Thu Apr 05 1990 17:3784
5.430PFSVAX::JACOBJunkfergnoten ExtraordinaireThu Apr 05 1990 17:4110
    Re.427
    
    Buffalo can be found in Rich Stadium and Detroit can be found in the
    Silverdome, both 8 weeks out of each season.
    
    
    JaKe
    
    :-) :-) :-)
    
5.431FTMUDG::REEDOklaSt--#29 NCAA Wrestling ChampionshipThu Apr 05 1990 17:445
    Thanks for the good info!  Denver cable is lucky enough to get PSN
    an unscrambled sports channel that had lots of good games (mostly
    college) last year, BTW.
    
    Cowboy
5.432FTMUDG::REEDOklaSt--#29 NCAA Wrestling ChampionshipThu Apr 05 1990 17:462
    and thanks for locating Buffalo and Detroit!! 8^D
    
5.433Yo, honey, boot that gizmo, will ya ???SHALOT::HUNTA single ping please, Vasily.Thu Apr 05 1990 18:0325
5.434FTMUDG::REEDOklaSt--#29 NCAA Wrestling ChampionshipThu Apr 05 1990 18:1412
    We get the Denver VHF channels via attenna fairly well most of the
    time so wouldn't have to pay for those.  (Hey, FREE "BRONCO BEAT")
    
    re:PSN  
    
    This channel looked to have continuous college football games--much
    more than ESPN.  Then during other seasons the programming continued
    to look great.  Its hard to believe that its not scrambled.  I could
    survive on PSN and peanut butter sandwiches for years.
    
    Cowboy
    
5.435AFC = KUBSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsThu Apr 05 1990 18:187
    If you want to watch an AFC team (I'm exclusivley a Charger fan) then
    you MUST HAVE a KU system, since NBC broadcasts the AFC and NBC uses
    KU.  Specifically satellites K1 & K2.
    
    Live from Charger Central....
    
    Glenn
5.43629637::GAULKEThu Apr 05 1990 18:2115
    
    
      If I'm not mistaken, the 'Denver 5' feeds out The John Elway Show,
    The Dan Reeves Show, The Doug Moe Show, The Denver Huddle, and 
    highlights of the East Stands at Mile High being moved out for
    baseball. Round the clock.  
    
    
       Iy my opinion, the only good dish is one filled with eggs.
       Unscrambled, of course.
    
    
    Steven
    
    
5.437WXIA is NBC on CSHALOT::HUNTA single ping please, Vasily.Thu Apr 05 1990 19:0818
5.438And Paula Adbul could attract my "opposite" anydaySHALOT::HUNTA single ping please, Vasily.Thu Apr 05 1990 20:3514
5.439HKU is requiredGRANPA::DFAUSTDuke=Broncos of NCAAFri Apr 06 1990 11:0318
    
    To watch AFC football, you need KU band, simple as that. Although one
    NBC affiliate is C band, the backhauls for the most part are all KU
    band. Likewise, the backhauls for the NFC gmes on CBS are all on KU
    band and are in the clear. Last couple of years, the ESPN feeds for pro
    football have been screambledd using BMAC technology, which is
    incompatible with the VCII. I haven't missed an Eagles game the four
    years I've had my dish. 
    
    Baseball, however, is another story. The baseball backhauls are pretty
    much all scrambled in a manner that makes it unavailable to the home
    dish owner.
    
    For more information, try PEARL::SATELLITE, which has all kinds of
    Satellite TV stuff.
    
    Dennis
    
5.440The way it was in "89"BTOVT::AJA_MThe Pack is BackFri Apr 06 1990 12:089
    Re: -1 Just a nit but CBS games are C band. Although CBS does scramble
    it's regularing programing it DOES NOT scramble it's FOOTBALL FEEDS.
    So if your team is from the NFC your chances of watching 95% of the
    games is excellent. I watched 15 Packer games via CBS telecast and
    the other game I caught locally. (KC vs GB) I also watched all
    four pre-season games vis a station out of Green Bay. I live in
    Vermont. AFC is another story which has be stated in a previous note.
    
    The Pack
5.441FTMUDG::REEDOklaSt--#29 NCAA Wrestling ChampionshipFri Apr 06 1990 12:169
    Thanks for the response to my satellite question.  It looks like
    the best bet is to look for a C/Ku combination system and have
    the ability to see anything (atleast if its unscrambled).
    
    Servicemen are constantly moving out of Colorado Springs and are
    unloading their systems at give-away prices--usually $500.  I don't
    know how old/outdated some of this equipment is tho.
    
    Thanks again for the input, Cowboy
5.442BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsFri Apr 06 1990 12:3711
    Well Bob, you're right about a couple NBC affiliates out there, but I
    interpreted the question to mean that if you want to follow "your" AFC 
    team every week, then how do you do it.  And for that you need Ku band.  
    
    I watch the Chargers on either K1 or K2 every Sunday regardless of
    where they play or whom their opponent is.  They might be on the 2 NBC
    affiliates occasionally, but not week in and week out.
    
    Just a different slant:-)
    
    Glenn
5.443Trudeau blows a .1934180::HAASsame as talking to youWed Apr 11 1990 17:5615
Indianapolis Colts QB Jack Trudeau, who went to that Big 10 School 
Illinois, was arrested Tuesday on a charge of driving while intoxicated 
at Noblesville, Ind. Trudeau was stopped by police for speeding and 
erratic driving. He had a blood-alcohol level of .19%.

At this point let me make the following perfectly clear:

o It is not known if he was a victim of sexual harassment.
o The genders of the arresting [sic] policepeople [sic] was not announced.
o What is it with people in Indiana who tolerate such behavior.
o There is a_ill wind blowing for Illinois.
o This is definitely related to sports.
o I love all my neighbors.

TTom
5.444Mr.Moderator, could you move 5.443 please. Tanks.RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueWed Apr 11 1990 18:078
    With all due respect TTom I think this info belongs over in the Big 10
    note.  After all, if ex-ACC/Big10 coaches are to be held accountable,
    certainly the players are too.
    
    :^|
    
    
    - ACC Chris
5.445fyi...MSBIS2::ROBINSONmannish boyWed Apr 11 1990 18:3822
    re Trudeau
    
       For those of you who don't know how the blood-alcohol level
    works here goes... Assuming a 180 pound male, for every drink
    that you have (12 oz beer, 5 oz wine, 1 measured shot) your
    BAL goes up .02   After one hour, your liver metabolizes .02
    worth of alcohol.  So, if you drink one drink per hour your BAL
    would stay pretty close to .00  However, if you have a dozen drinks
    over the course of two hours, then your BAL would be .20
    
    	( .02 * 12 = .24  alcohol ingested - .02 *2 = .04 metabolized
    	alcohol for a net BAL of .20).
    
    This reading suggests that Trudeau had 12 in 2 hrs, 13 in 3, or 14 in 4
    etc...  Of course, people develop tolerances and a .10 on one person
    very well might not have the same effect on another.
    
    Just wanted you all to know because Mikey has to balance his books
    somehow and I wouldn't want any of you folks to have what happenned
    to Jack Trudeau (or worse) happen to you.
    
    Jeff 
5.446Goes without saying ...SHALOT::HUNTA single ping please, Vasily.Wed Apr 11 1990 18:455
Yes, obviously, now this means that all Big Ten quarterbacks are drunk.

Life in T-Land is wunnerful, ain't it ???

Bob Hunt
5.447GENRAL::GIBSONWed Apr 11 1990 19:3414
    
    Why do you guys let T make you look like fools?
    
    
    The instances he pointed out happened when said people were still
    there. Trudeau has been in the NFL for what, 4 years? I don't see
    any relationship between a guy getting arrested for drunk driving
    several years after he leaves school and a coach ordering his team
    to cover-up/suppress evidence in a cocaine death while still holding
    said coaching position for the school. Or point shaving, grade fixing,
    pay-offs etc. WHILE STILL AT THE SCHOOL.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.448not the caseAUNTB::HAASsame as talking to youWed Apr 11 1990 19:458
Hoot,

Thanks for the intervention but look closely at the Lefty Driessel note.
Apparently, this "incident" took place very recently, not at all

>    ... WHILE STILL AT THE SCHOOL.

TTom
5.449CAM::WAYThe Lesser BardThu Apr 12 1990 10:5134
One nit wif da BAL:

	There are of course variations which exist.  The variation
	exists due to individuals having different metabolisms.
	Thus, some guys at 180 who have x amount of drinks over
	y amount of time, might have a different BAL that another
	guy, same drinks, same time.

	
	Also, the way BAL is measured will greatly affect the reading.
	Your typical breathalizer test will give you one reading, but
	if a blood sample is used, the reading will be higher.

	They have a new "street" test now, that officers are becoming
	certified in.  Evidently they shine a light in your eyes
	like the doctor would and have you follow it, as the move it
	towards the outside of you vision limits (ie your left eye, they
	move it way left).

	As your eye reaches its farthest point of travel to the outside
	it will bounce a little, back and forth.  On a sober person, this
	occurs at about the outside limits of your eye travel.  The drunker
	you get, the shorter the distance before your eye starts to bounce.

	Really expert cops can estimate the BAL from where your eye starts
	to bounce.

	Also, used to be that if you claimed a head injury in an accident,	
	you got a ride to the hospital, a check up, and no blood test.
	Now, if they suspect you've been drinking, and you claim head
	injury, you're getting a test no matter what....

HTH,
'Saw
5.450BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsTue Apr 17 1990 11:5826
    I find it interesting how the flavor of a football team remains even
    though the owner, coaches, and general manager change.
    
    I'm specifically thinking about the Chargers and their inability to
    deal with and handle successfully controversies with peculiar, but
    gifted, players.  Never have they had a player, who had contract
    problems, or wanted to renegoitiate their contract, who they've
    successfully dealth with.  
    
    John Jefferson was off-loaded to Titletown.  Chip Banks to the
    Dickerson show.  Gary Johnson, Fred Dean, and Louie Kelcher to the
    49ers.  Jim Lachay to Redskins through Raiders.
    And now Gary Anderson....to....????  
    
    All these guys were talented players, but somehow, got bored with the
    Chargers and were shipped out of town.  
    
    The Raiders have always dealt successfully with players like this.  The
    Cowboys never have, and so on.  Yet this label sticks with the teams
    regardless of front office moves.
    
    I find it interesting and wonder why it is so.
    
    Live from Charger Central....
    
    Glenn
5.451JUPITR::MOKCharles P. MokFri Apr 27 1990 16:538
    Disgruntled Lion QB Chuck Long worked out in Indy and Foxboro then went
    to work out for the Rams.  Wouldn't mind to see Long backing up
    Everett, that will be a reunion of the 2 highest drafted QBs that year. 
    Long has been overshadowing Everett much of their Big Ten careers, up
    until draft day and up to today :)  And the Rams can use a capable
    backup which they do not really have for a while.
    
    Charles
5.452FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Thu May 03 1990 15:1040
    I got my mailing from the NFL yesterday so I have the complete schedule
    week by week and also for every team.
    
    The open dates are going to be rotated on a divisional business.
    The NFC West is off the weekend of September 30; NFC East, October
    7; AFC East, October 14; NFC Central, October 21; AFC West, October
    28; AFC Central, November 11 and last year's 5th place teams, December
    16.
    
    The Thanksgiving games are Denver at Detroit and Washington at Dallas.
    The Saturday games at the end of the season are:  December 15, Buffalo
    at Giants and Washington at New England; December 22, Detroit at
    Green Bay and Raiders at Minnesota (that night, ABC will televise
    Washington at Indianapolis since there will be no Monday Night game
    on Christmas Eve); December 29, Kansas City at Chicago and Philadelphia
    at Phoenix.
    
    The New England at Miami game is the only game of the season to
    be played on a Thursday night.
    
    The Sunday games are (in order) 9/9 Philly at Giants, 9/16 Houston
    at Pittsburgh, 9/23 Detroit at Tampa Bay, 9/30 Washington at Phoenix,
    10/7 Raiders at Buffalo, 10/14 Rams at Chicago, 10/21 none (replaced
    by 10/18 New England at Miami), 10/28 Cincinnati at Atlanta, 11/4
    Denver at Minnesota, 11/11 San Francisco at Dallas, 11/18 Pittsburgh
    at Cincinnati, 11/25 Seattle at San Diego, 12/2 Green Bay at Minnesota,
    12/9 Philadelphia at Miami, 12/16 Chicago at Detroit, 12/23 Denver
    at Seattle and 12/30 Pittsburgh at Houston.
    
    The Monday games are (in order) 9/10 San Francisco at New Orleans,
    9/17 Kansas City at Denver, 9/24 Buffalo at Jets, 10/1 Cincinnati
    at Seattle, 10/8 Cleveland at Denver, 10/15 Minnesota at Philadelphia,
    10/22 Cincinnati at Cleveland, 10/29 Rams at Pittsburgh, 11/5 Giants
    at Indianapolis, 11/12 Washington at Philadelphia, 11/19 Raiders
    at Miami, 11/26 Buffalo at Houston, 12/3 Giants at San Francisco,
    12/10 Raiders at Detroit, 12/17 San Francisco at Rams, 12/24 none
    (replaced by 12/22 Washington at Indianapolis) and 12/31, Rockin'
    New Years Eve in Nawlins as the Rams visit the Saints.           
    
    John
5.453Better not finish lastSHALOT::HUNTA single ping please, Vasily.Thu May 03 1990 16:2119
    I saw the schedule last week in the paper and the first thought I
    had after seeing how the OPEN DATE is rotated is "Thank God my
    team didn't finish in 5th place."
    
    Why make the 5th place teams wait until mid-December to get their
    week off ???  If anything, give them an open date in the middle of
    the season.   Assuming that the 5th place teams from last year
    won't be substantially improved next year, this means they'll be
    racking up their own sets of injuries while the higher placed
    teams will be getting their open dates first and healing their
    wounded.
    
    So, banged-up 5th place teams will be playing healed or healing
    higher placed teams.  Real fair.
    
    Of course, it's the Cowboys who are getting shafted so I'm not
    *too* broken up about it.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.454we can still beat the skin once a yearHPSRAD::SANTOSm&amp;m's are to hard to peelThu May 03 1990 18:208
    Bob,

    Open date at the beginning, end, or middle of the season doesn't matter
    for Dallas. We still have Thanksgiving day game tho' ya hoooo. One 
    Sunday night game with San Fran, great just great, a slaughter in front
    of the whole nation.

    Chuck
5.455CAM::WAYThere's no winners...only survivorsFri May 04 1990 10:1612
But Chuck --

Look at it this way.  For years when the Cowboys were good, we all had
to watch them slaughter our teams.  We got to see in GREAT detail the
way Roger would pick them apart in his two minute drill (arguable the
best two minute drill QB the game has ever seen).

Now, it's our turn.  I cain't help it if I get a visceral thrill watching
the Cowboys get beat up...8^)

Hope this helps,
'Saw
5.456HPSRAD::SANTOSm&amp;m's are to hard to peelFri May 04 1990 12:098
'Saw,

     I know all about pay back being a bitch :-). Besides I've always
     liked the 49ers, in fact they have always been my second favorite
     team the last 2 years. Bandwagon jumping is fun and easy too.

 Chuck

5.457CAM::WAYThere's no winners...only survivorsFri May 04 1990 13:3711
YOU AR TOO BLAM!!!!1 CHUCKVANE!!!

I don't bandwagon jump. 8^)

My two favs are the Giants and Packers.  We both know how the Packers
could handle the 'boys years ago.  Now, hopefully the Giants will
their chance 8^)

Cain't wait for football season....

'Saw
5.458Schedule?BELMNT::SCHWARTZBo knows VMSWed May 09 1990 14:322
    Can anyone post a complete 1990 NFL schedule?
    
5.459FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed May 09 1990 14:454
    Only if you give me an optical scanner.  I have it but it's too
    much typing, even for me.
    
    John
5.460Official Schedule for 1990RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOHomer,Plato,Voltaire,MilburyWed May 09 1990 14:5117
    1990 Schedule
    
    January
    February
    March
    April
    May 
    June
    July
    August
    September
    November
    December
    
    Hope that Helped
    
    JD
5.461COMET::MONTGOMERYBrowns Bite Donks 10/8/90Wed May 09 1990 14:5311
        <<< Note 5.459 by FSHQA1::JHENDRY "John Hendry, DTN 292-2170" >>>

   > Only if you give me an optical scanner.  
    
    I think this is a good idea!! After all Mr.Hendry does provide for our
    statistic habit!!! Any one out there got a spare one???


Monty
    

5.462ROULET::WHITEHAIRDon't just sit there.......Do it now!Wed May 09 1990 14:565
    
    	you forgot...
    
    	home			away
    
5.463CAM::WAYSeize the day!Wed May 09 1990 15:4211
John --

Send me a copy in inter-orifice snail, and I'll be glad to type it
in....

Send it to me @BMF....



Hep this schleps you all wonk,
'Saw
5.464LEVERS::STROUTno hero in your tragedy...Thu May 10 1990 17:024
    	Did someone mention that Seattle's Brian Bosworth has officially
    stated that he is done with football?  Well, I just did.
    
    sean
5.465Bosworth = a waste of Right GuardSASE::SZABOJust say YES to freakin' lunaticism!Thu May 10 1990 17:321
    
5.466LEVERS::STROUTno hero in your tragedy...Thu May 10 1990 17:341
5.467BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsThu May 10 1990 17:414
    He played things right tho.  He got his money, and is pretty well set
    for awhile.
    
    Glenn
5.468PFSVAX::JACOBJunkFergNotenerThu May 10 1990 18:205
    But for someone who was a legend in his own mind by his junior year in
    college, he didn't amount to even a SLOF in the NFL.
    
    JaKe
    
5.469CAM::WAYRiders for the FlagThu May 10 1990 19:047
Great use of SLOF(tm) there, Jake!

The Boz turned out to be the Bozo....

hahahahahahhahahahahhahahahaha(tm)

'Saw
5.470PARVAX::WARDLEYanks and Jets in 1990!Fri May 11 1990 15:583
    Yeah, and I'm sure he's crying all the way to the bank.
    
    
5.471McMahon backing up Cunningham? SHALOT::MEDVIDHouse music all night longTue May 22 1990 12:024
    The Eagles have offered Jim McMahon a contract and his agent said the
    possibility of singing with Philly is "intriguing."
    
    	
5.472Too Tall to retireAUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Tue Jun 05 1990 14:492
    Ed "Too Tall" Jones is expected to announce his retirement at a press
    conference later today.
5.473COBRA::DINSMOREMadonna and ASICS.. A WINNING COMBOTue Jun 05 1990 15:152
    think hes too tall to retire?? :)
    
5.474full speed ahead to the new eraHPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Tue Jun 05 1990 16:1811
    Glad Too Tall is going to retire instead of playing for peanuts for
    another team. Bill Bates is the only one of Landrys good-old boys to
    still be on the team and he won't make the final roster. Too Tall was
    a great one and should have a shot at the HoF. As Hollywood Henderson
    says "the girls at my parties loved Too Tall because he could go all
    night."
 
    Maybe the Giants could sign Too Tall, after all they did sign Everson
    Walls :-).

Chuck
5.475CAM::WAYBloomfield Brew CrewTue Jun 05 1990 16:456
5.476Troy find Walls and send someone deep on him.HPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Tue Jun 05 1990 18:009
>> And with the Giants Walls' career will finally attain full bloom 8^) 8^)

   'Saw,
   
     I only hope and pray that Walls will be the starting DB when the Giants
     play Dallas. We'll be able to score a few TD's for sure then :-).

   Chuck
5.477CAM::WAYBloomfield Brew CrewTue Jun 05 1990 18:125
Nah, because Troy will be spending a lot of time on his
derriere....8^)

latered dude,
'Saw
5.478FSHQA1::JRODOPOULOSTue Jun 05 1990 18:233
    'Saw, I have to respectfully disagree with you on the Aikman comment.
    Troy will blossom this year, he will finally have some receivers
    who won't drop everything in sight.
5.479GENRAL::GIBSONTue Jun 05 1990 19:3124
    
    Ralph Rotten update...
    
    Every other Tuesday The Rotten One now prints letters sent to him.
    Today there was a great one, too bad I don't have the thing with me.
    I will just have to put in the jest of it. 
    
    But first we need a little background. About a week and a half ago
    Ralph printed this gushing story on the bum Gerald Perry, just after he
    got out of a rehab clinic. He went so far as to say the Perry is a good
    guy, never mind his ever growing criminal record.
    
    This lady wrote that Perry is a scumbag and donk fans are sick of
    having to root for a team with him on it. That Denver should have
    gotten rid of the scuzball two years ago. Then she really started 
    ragging on Ralph about his "Perry is a good guy" comment. The best line
    was something like, "what would you say if he wanted to take your
    daughter out?" Then she told Ralph that he is probably a closet RAIDER
    fan, which Ralph vehemently denied by saying "heaven forbid". Thank God
    for that! Unfortunately, The Rotten One didn't reply to the daughter
    question.
    
     	                                           HOOT
    
5.480Ha!RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueTue Jun 05 1990 20:422
    
    
5.48115436::LEFEBVREHe lives in Mojave in a WinnebagoWed Jun 06 1990 14:484
    Ken Sims was arrested on cocaine charges.  According to yesterday's
    Herald, he'll be shitcanned by the Pats.
    
    Mark.
5.482MCIS1::DHAMELYa gotta aggregate yer SLOF's, manWed Jun 06 1990 15:1418
    
    Too bad about Sims.  A number one draft pick who never really lived
    up to his potential, although I'm not sure if he ever played a full
    season due to a variety of broken bones.
    
    I heard on the radio that he reported to camp very overweight (300+
    lbs.) and that a clause in his contract required him to stay in
    camp until he got into shape.  If that's true, he had no business
    going back to Texas.
    
    I also believe that this is the second time he was involved in some
    kind of drug thing.  Wasn't he mentioned in the drug investigation
    after the Pat's Super Bowl appearance?
    
    Another case of a player shoving a career up his nose.
    
    Dickster
    
5.483More on SimsAUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Wed Jun 06 1990 15:4130
5.484MCIS1::DHAMELYa gotta aggregate yer SLOF's, manWed Jun 06 1990 16:3618
    
    >    There was another person in the car when he was stopped for speeding. 
    > We haven't heard Sims' side of the story yet.    
     
    True, the details are still sketchy.  But I understand the packet
    fell out of Sims' wallet when he was getting his license out.
    
    Awfully nice of Kenny to keep his buddy's stash in his wallet for
    him/her.
    
    From the rumblings in the local press (for what they're worth),
    it does sound like the Pat's are going to give him the ol' Tony
    Collins heave-ho.  I'm not saying that's the right thing to do,
    but it does appear that the Pat's brass has already tried and sentenced
    him.
    
    Dickster
    
5.485I only get tanked up for the games...CNTROL::CHILDSEat Me, Beat Me, C'mon Mistreat MEWed Jun 06 1990 16:5010
 Stop it Mac, your slaying me ;^)

 If it was LT or some other second time offender you'd be leading the
 lynch mob, but he's a dam patsies so.....

 gives a whole new meaning to the nickname "Gameday"....

 mike    

5.486more on SimsMPO::GILBERTToo much month at the end of the moneyWed Jun 06 1990 17:5210
    
    It was revealed in today's Globe that this is not his second offense
    but his third. This was in a quote from an unnamed patriot official.
    That official was also quoted as saying that Sims' contract REQUIRED
    him to stay after mini-camp and work on strength and conditioning.
    When asked why no fuss was made when he didn't the reply was that
    the Pats aren't running a babysitting service. Also the league office
    stated yesterday that they would take a dim view of a Sims release
    strictly on the basis of drug charges until he is convicted.
    
5.487Will they REALLY dump him?GENRAL::GIBSONThu Jun 07 1990 17:2110
    
    Big Bubba Paris may be on his way out of San Francisco. His estimated
    weight is anywhere between 340 and 370 lbs.! Reportedly, the 49ers have
    told him to lose "considerable" weight or he is gone. 
    
    Maybe he should go see Bo. While at Michigan Bo kept him on a tight
    diet and work-out schedule and he stayed just under 300 while there.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.488JULIET::MAY_BRQUIET!!Thu Jun 07 1990 19:435
    
    Why not dump him?  I saw him a couple weeks ago, and he was huge!
    He wouldn't be missed.
    
    Bruce
5.489GENRAL::GIBSONFri Jun 08 1990 14:112
    
    He might have been huge but he also was very effective.
5.490JULIET::MAY_BRQUIET!!Fri Jun 08 1990 18:206
    
    I don't think he was that effective.  The year Montana went down
    with the bad back was because Bubba was repeatedly getting beat.
    He is a good run blocker, but I wouldn't trust him against the pass.
    
    Bruce
5.491BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsFri Jun 15 1990 13:178
    DULL...DULL...DULL!
    
    Hockey over.  Basketball over.  Baseball on (big deal until the CS). 
    No Football yet!   
    
    DULL...DULL...DULL!DULL...DULL...DULL!
    
    Glenn
5.492Run-down on each team.BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsFri Jun 15 1990 19:0077
    The July edition of "Inside Sports" give a run-down on each team. 
    Here's a capsule for each team:
    
    Bills:  The Bills peaked in the AFC game of 1988 and are on the way
    downhill now.  Even if Kelly delivers, the Bills may not be able to.
    
    Colts:  On the wire!  If George pans out, they'll do fine.  If
    not...watch out.
    
    Dolphins:  Complacent team that can't overcome mediocrity.
    
    Pats:  Rod Rust cannot make the Patriots shine again.  Sullivan may be
    gone too if the Pats miss the playoffs again.
    
    Jets:  They'll move up, but O-Line looks horrible.
    
    Browns:  Bud Carson is in "win-or-else" situation.
    
    Oilers:  Glanville had best personnel in AFC and couldn't deliver.  Run
    & shoot O and will show more heart.
    
    Steelers:  Walton as O-coordinator will help alot.  Noll letting go of
    O.
    
    Bengals:  Super Bowl bound.
    
    Broncos:  Closer to winning Super Bowl than most teams.
    
    Chiefs:  Okoye can take Chiefs only to wild-card round of playoffs.  No
    further.
    
    Raiders:  Time didn't pass the Raiders by, the Raiders spent too much
    of the late '80s just passing time.
    
    Seahawks:  Back up the truck; it's time to start over.
    
    Chargers:  Not far away from being over the hump.  If Tolliver pans
    out...
    
    Giants:  Don't get rid of Simms for another year.
    
    Eagles:  Cunningham's not as good as he thinks.
    
    Redskins:  Gibbs is hinting at retirement.  Manley won't regain former
    stature.  Who's the every-down back?
    
    Cards:  Terrible move by forcing Stallings out.  Bidwell needs serious
    management training.
    
    Cowboys:  Johnson's an excellent coach and should stick to coaching. 
    The Cowboys should bring in an experienced GM.
    
    Vikes:  Herschel can't put the Vikes over the top.  A QB can.
    
    Pack:  Not the team of the 90's.  Re: Mandarich - "No one is a bust
    after one year."
    
    Lions:  Run & Shoot isn't just a fad!
    
    Bears:  Hampton's absence has a dramatic impact!
    
    Bucs:  To be this bad takes bad trading, scouting, coaching, and
    contract negotiating - and the Bucs have it all.
    
    49ers:  Could make history and make it a three-peat!
    
    Rams:  Could be ready for ultimate level.  2nd best team in football.
    
    Saints: 87's 12-3 mark was a fluke.  The decline has been gradual, but
    definate.
    
    Falcons:  Glanville will turn them into nasty, hustling, gambling team.
    
    
    Live from Charger Central.....
    
    Glenn
5.493GENRAL::GIBSONFri Jun 15 1990 19:109
    
    I read some of it. I loved the wavering on the donks. The first line
    was one about being closer to winning a SB than most. Read further and
    they basicly say their OL, DL and D-backfield sux. Also that Elway "is
    not a great QB", that Bradshaw was right.(but we already knew that)
    Shoot, the only thing left is RB, Receivers and LB.
    
                                                   HOOT
    
5.494WMOIS::RIEU_DRead his Lips...Know New Taxes!!Mon Jun 18 1990 09:272
       ...seem to be right on the mark with the raiders too, eh HOOT??
                                             Denny
5.495GENRAL::GIBSONMon Jun 18 1990 14:073
    
    Pretty much. At least Al admitted he made the biggest football mistake
    he ever made and canned that stiff Shanahan.
5.496I.S. did a real number on CunninghamLUNER::BROOKSBy Any Means Neccessary - Any At AllMon Jun 18 1990 14:3713
    I read that article .... I.S. implied that Moon is not a Super Bowl
    caliber QB, and probably would be better off with another team.
    How ignorant can you get. 
    
    I'd like to ask a question of Bob Hunt (wherever you are) :
    
    The writer said that Cunningham is in love with himself, possibly
    lost some motivation after signing his contract, and shifts blame.
    It gave short shrift to his WR problems, and the offsensive
    coordination. 
    
    Have you heard any of these things on the Philly grapevine about
    Cunningham ?
5.497Randall CunninghamSHALOT::HUNTSend lawyers, guns, and money ...Mon Jun 18 1990 15:2180
5.498FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Jun 18 1990 15:267
    If I'm not mistaken, Randall is also the youngest sibling in his
    family.  His brother Sam who played for USC and New England is about
    14 years older than Randall.  I don't think he and Sam are at all
    close and I don't think he gets a lot of guidance from his siblings.
    That can't help either.
    
    John
5.499AXIS::ROBICHAUDBillLaimbeer-Poet,Scholar,AthleteMon Jun 18 1990 15:383
    	Randall also lost Mike Quick.  Probably for good.
    
    				/Don
5.500More ...SHALOT::HUNTSend lawyers, guns, and money ...Mon Jun 18 1990 15:5239
5.501Randall had better watch himself - when you're on top ...LUNER::BROOKSBy Any Means Neccessary - Any At AllMon Jun 18 1990 17:107
    Thanks fo the great notes Bob. I've heard of many of those same
    factors, on and off the field. But I'll let you read the I.S. article.
    (Or I'll enter it when/if I have the time.)
    
    IMO, it was a thinly veiled hatchet job. It was alos the same writer
    who took some nasty cracks at a few other players as well, and I
    doubt if it was warrented ....
5.502RC threw blind for 400+ yards ...LUNER::BROOKSBy Any Means Neccessary - Any At AllMon Jun 18 1990 17:125
    
    re Playoff games,
    
    I thought he played pretty well in the Fog Bowl ..... 
5.503GRANPA::DFAUSTSixers=Atlantic Div ChampsMon Jun 18 1990 20:5016
    re: Mike Quick
    
    I saw a report (last week I think) on Mike Quick and it said his
    recovey is ahead of schedule. He has started running on a track and
    should be ready when the season is over.
    
    As far the Eagle's receiver situation is concerned, Gregg Garrity and
    Ron Johnson will both be released before training camp, and two of the
    draft choices have been designated as the "starting" wide recivers.
    Buddy said that Mike quick will be given every opportunity to get his
    job back, but that the Eagles aren't counting on him being there.
    Carter is supposed to be the third down WR that will com in in long
    yardage situations.
    
    Dennis
    
5.504MCIS1::DHAMELThe killer awoke before dawn...Wed Jun 20 1990 12:2221
    
    I heard the PATS dumped Kenny Sims like a (large) sack of hot potatoes.
    they tried to work a trade, but there were no takers.  I'm sure
    there were no takers since it was clear the team was going to give
    him the heave-ho anyway.
    
    The "reason" was that he did not live up to his contract agreement
    to maintain his playing weight when he reported to camp (270 lbs.),
    and showed up in the "Fridge" rang of 130 lbs. or so.
    
    The news also reported that he had a $50,0000 bonus clause in his
    contract for keeping his weight down.  50 grand for losing weight??
    Hey, offer me fifty thousand clams to lose weight, and I'll say
    "How much do you want me to lose, when do you want it done by, and
    get me some Ultra Slim Fast(tm) and point me to the gym.  If you
    have the check with you, we'll go do liposuction this afternoon."
                                         
    Well, Ken, maybe "The Fat Boys" are looking for another member.
    
    Dickster
    
5.505MCIS1::DHAMELThe killer awoke before dawn...Wed Jun 20 1990 12:473
    
    -1  OOPS...the "Fridge" range is more like 330 lbs.
    
5.506AXIS::ROBICHAUDGeorgeForeman-NextHEAVYweightChampWed Jun 20 1990 13:571
    	I thought you meant one of those portable models Dick.
5.507FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Jul 02 1990 16:2331
Will McDonough was hypothesizing on the NFL's plans for expansion and realign-
ment over the next decade.  Chances are there'd be an expansion first and then
a realignment.

Apparently, the league plans to expand to 32 teams in 2 16-team conferences
with 4 4-team divisions in each conference.  This would make scheduling easy.
A team would play 6 games in its own division, 4 games from the other conference
with its division's partner for the year, and 6 other games in its conference.
A first place team would play the 3 other first place teams, a second place
team, a third place team and a fourth place team.  A second place team would
play the 3 other second place teams, a first place team, a third place team and
a fourth place team.  A third place team would play the 3 other third place
teams, a first place team, a second place team and a fourth place team.  A 4th
place team would play the 3 other fourth place teams, a first place team, a 2nd
place team and a third place team.  If I've done the math right, there's a bal-
anced schedule right there.

The realignment is the most interesting part.  McDonough said the alignment 
would be based on getting rid of the geographical anomalies first and then 
balancing off the TV markets between the AFC and NFC.  Most likely teams to
change divisions are Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, Kansas City, New Orleans, At-
lanta, Tampa Bay and Indianapolis.  Most likely conference swap is Buffalo to
the NFC East and Philadelphia to the AFC East.

Among the more likely expansion cities (my own opinion) are Baltimore, St Louis,
Jacksonville, Birmingham, Memphis, Oakland or Los Angeles (depending on what the
Raiders do) and perhaps either Honolulu or Montreal.  The expansion will shape
the alignment but things are going to be radically different in the future.

John
    
5.508Charlotte, too34443::HAASsame as talking to youMon Jul 02 1990 17:277
Put Charlotte on the list of "most likely". You could say that they
bought their way in a couple of years ago when they gave the NFL a very
large line of credit at one of the local banks - NCNB - for a strike
fund. Ever since then, the local media has been talking almost like they
expect us to get one of the expansion teams.

TTom
5.509Balt and St. Louis ??? I don't know ...SHALOT::HUNTSend lawyers, guns, and money ...Mon Jul 02 1990 18:0616
    Naturally, I'm biased towards a Charlotte entry as well but I can't see
    Baltimore and St. Louis as automatic locks for a new franchise.
    
    I would hope that one of the first things that an NFL expansion
    committee would discuss is past history.  Believe me, I have nothing
    against Baltimore and St. Louis but the fans did not exactly bust down
    their doors trying to get in.
    
    Yes, Irsay is a jerk for spiriting the Colts out of town in the dead of
    night and, yes, Bidwill is an idiot for leaving and then blatantly
    charging the sky-high ticket prices he charges in Phoenix.   But should
    those cities get a "sympathy" franchise to make up for it ???
    
    I don't necessarily think so ...
    
    Bob Hunt
5.510The world comes to AlabamaSHALOT::MEDVIDthe infinite complexities of loveMon Jul 02 1990 18:205
    I'm not sure, but I would suspect Birmingham to be out of the expansion
    picture since they are a city in the World Football League...right? 
    What other cities would this eliminate?
    
    	--dan'l
5.511maybe owners34443::HAASsame as talking to youMon Jul 02 1990 18:388
Memphis is also getting a WFL team. Whether this precludes NFL or if they
would roll in all into the same team is unknown by this noter.

The story line on St. Louis and Baltimore is that recent history suggests
that perhaps the lack of success in these franchise histories might be a
function of the owners. We shall see.

TTom
5.512RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOYAWN, another no-hitter, ho-hum...Mon Jul 02 1990 19:256
    I'm surprised no one mentioned Atlanta and Boston - neither one
    of these cities currently has a professional football team.
    
    ;-)
    
    JD
5.513FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Jul 02 1990 22:379
    I'd forgotten about Charlotte as an expansion site.
    
    I agree about St Louis, the football Cards didn't seem to be all that
    well-supported even when they did well.  I disagree about Baltimore. 
    Colts tickets were as tough to get as any in the NFL before Irsay took
    over the franchise.  They were extremely well supported and have a
    great tradition as well.
    
    John
5.514You may be right ...SHALOT::HUNTSend lawyers, guns, and money ...Mon Jul 02 1990 23:1818
    John,
    
    With your AFC East background, I would consent to your facts but I just
    don't recall the Colts drawing all that well in their bad years.  No
    doubt that they packed 'em in during the heydays of Johnny Unitas, Alan
    Ameche, Ray Berry, and such and then again during the Bert Jones years. 
    But did they really draw all that well when things weren't so rosy ???
    
    You are correct, though, about the 'tradition' of the Baltimore Colts. 
    One of the best themes running through "Diner", a great little movie
    from about 10 years ago that portrayed the young people who gathered at
    a small, late 50s Baltimore greasy spoon, was how one of the young men
    refused to marry his high school sweetheart until she could answer a
    series of Colts trivia questions.
    
    Talk about pressure ...
    
    Bob Hunt
5.515FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Tue Jul 03 1990 11:2024
    Bob,
    
    The Colts bad years really didn't start until Bob Irsay took over if I
    remember correctly.  I don't know how they drew from 1953-1956, when
    they started to get good, but from 1957 through the sixties and into
    the mid-seventies (when they were still good), Memorial Stadium was a
    guaranteed sell out all the time.  The Colts didn't get consistently
    bad until the late seventies and into the eighties, that was after Bert
    Jones was gone, when Tiger was firmly in control and Baltimore fans
    staying away from Colts games was a protest against ownership as much
    as it was a protest of bad football.  I'm convinced that had the Colts
    gotten bad under different ownership, the team still would have been
    supported and would probably still be in Baltimore today.
    
    Another thing about Baltimore is that there is still a Baltimore Colts
    Marching Band that is still active and in fact has gotten even bigger
    since the Colts left.  Contrast this to St Louis where there is almost
    no memory of the football Cardinals and in fact any references to them
    were booed when I made that trip with the Patriots last summer.  St
    Louis doesn't necessarily deserve a team but may get one (in defense of
    the St Louisans, their lack of fan support was probably anti-ownership
    as well) but I believe Baltimore deserves a team.
    
    John
5.516AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Tue Jul 03 1990 20:034
5.517BOFsSHALOT::HUNTSend lawyers, guns, and money ...Tue Jul 03 1990 23:054
    Good point.  The Jints fans are legendary in their suffering.  So are
    Iggles fans.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.518Still using instant replay?33328::BMCWILLIAMSImprovise if you have to ...Tue Jul 10 1990 13:287
Quick work-related (believe it or not) question:

What's the status of instant replay officiating for the 1990 season? Did the
league decide to stay with it or abandon it? 

Thanks,
Brian
5.519get rid of the dam thingCNTROL::CHILDSWhen the still Sea conspires...Tue Jul 10 1990 14:486
Instant replay is still intact but is now limited to 2 minutes. If the
replay booth doesn't overrule the call within two minutes than the call
stands....

mike
5.520Supp. DraftBUILD::MORGANTue Jul 10 1990 15:564
    Anyone hear who won the draft rights to Rob Moore in today's
    supplemental draft?  I think I read it was supposed to be at 1:00.
    
    					Steve
5.521FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Tue Jul 10 1990 15:595
    According to the Patriots conference, the Jets drafted Rob Moore.  That
    gives them Al Toon, Reggie Rembert and Rob Moore to go along with Jo Jo
    Townsell and whoever else they have at WR.
    
    John
5.522AXIS::ROBICHAUDGeorgeForeman-NextHEAVYweightChampTue Jul 10 1990 16:214
    	To bad the Jets don't have a quarterback to throw to all those
    talented receivers.
    
    				/Don
5.523Now if they just had a quarterback... ~/~.VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Tue Jul 10 1990 16:210
5.524Great minds think alike, eh Jeff?AXIS::ROBICHAUDGeorgeForeman-NextHEAVYweightChampTue Jul 10 1990 16:231
    
5.525You remember hurricane O'Brien, don't you?HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERand do the Mudshark, babyTue Jul 10 1990 16:234
    There are about 20 other NFL teams that would start Kenny O if they had
    him.  Yes, at quarterback, /Don.
    
    Dan, anticipating /Don's snappy comeback
5.526Shame on you, Don. I should set that hidden.VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Tue Jul 10 1990 16:260
5.527You added an extra zero on the number Dan...AXIS::ROBICHAUDGeorgeForeman-NextHEAVYweightChampTue Jul 10 1990 16:261
    
5.528darn, was hoping the Pats would get Moore...STAR::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasTue Jul 10 1990 16:296
    This certainly gives the Jets a first rate crew of WRs...any
    possibility that one of them might be put on the trading block to try
    and fill another need?
                          
    
    py
5.529Just don't pull a DallasHOTSHT::SCHNEIDERand do the Mudshark, babyTue Jul 10 1990 17:0322
    >This certainly gives the Jets a first rate crew of WRs...any
    >possibility that one of them might be put on the trading block to try
    >and fill another need?
    
    I doubt it.  Toon's still young (26,27).  He's much too good to trade
    also.  Rembert, tho' enormously talented, has some question marks
    besides being a rookie.  His college days didn't do the best job of
    preparing him.  Moore is very exciting, but again, just a rookie.  I
    can see a future planned around all 3, and from what I know about the
    rookies, they can be insurance for each other.
    
    The report on Moore is great speed (he timed "good" with a bad
    hamstring in rainy conditions - he says he has much better times),
    great hands, great patterns.  His leaping is extraordinary.  He was
    considered top 5 in the draft if he had come out in the normal phase.
    
    Perhaps they'd consider trading Rembert, but I wouldn't.
    
    Does anyone know if the Jets won the lottery for the right to draft
    Moore, or did another team, and then pass on him?
    
    Dan
5.530CAM::WAYCandy crunch courtesy of McMahonTue Jul 10 1990 17:3025
5.531MCIS1::DHAMELWhatcha doin'? Oh, noting much.Tue Jul 10 1990 18:4217
    
    "Hog" Hannah used to do some radio gab in Boston, and he used to
    talk a lot about how he paid his dues for the big money and the
    fame and the glory.  His legs and knees are shot, his back hurts,
    and his shoulder is at only XX percent of full usage.  Throw in
    some weak ankles, some scars, and some twisted fingers, and it is
    readily seen the permanent damage from football that these guys
    have to live with.
    
    I also understand that these guys have a notoriously short life
    span in relation to the general population, but some of that may
    be related to size alone.  I think those players who have been in
    the league for 5-plus years and do not have some kind of permanent
    damage are few and far between.
    
    Dickster
    
5.532SASE::SZABOTue Jul 10 1990 18:497
5.533FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Tue Jul 10 1990 20:234
    Dallas won the lottery and passed.  Atlanta was second and passed. 
    Jets were 3rd and took him.  Patriots were 4th.
    
    John
5.534CAM::WAYCandy crunch courtesy of McMahonWed Jul 11 1990 11:057
Actually, I think the damage comes from the amazing amount of physical
contact.  Montana, as a QB, would be immune to a lot of that, compared
to a lineman.

I remember reading somewhere that it's not unusual for a lineman to
come into the league at 6'5 and over the next 7 or 8 years be compressed
to 6'3...
5.535help please ...33328::BMCWILLIAMSImprovise if you have to ...Wed Jul 11 1990 18:004
When does the NFL 1990 regular season begin?

Thanks,
Brian
5.536FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Jul 11 1990 18:2317
    NFL regular season begins on Sunday, September 9 and runs through
    Monday, December 31 with the Rams at New Orleans.  This year's 16 games
    are being played over 17 weeks, each team has one week off during the
    season.  The Jets, Chargers, Cowboys and Bucs are off Week 14 (12/9),
    the NFC West is off Week 4 (9/30), NFC East is off Week 5 (10/7), AFC
    East is off Week 6 (10/14), NFC Central is off Week 7 (10/21), AFC West
    is off Week 8 (10/28) and AFC Central is off Week 10 (11/11).  The
    preseason begins with the Hall of Fame Game in Canton, Ohio on
    Saturday, August 4 (Bears vs Browns, I believe) and a game in Tokyo
    between Denver and Seattle.  The annual game in Wembley Stadium, London
    is on Sunday, August 5 between the Raiders and Saints.  Preseason gets
    underway in earnest the next weekend and continues through Labor Day
    weekend.  First round of playoffs is Jan 5-6, second round is Jan
    12-13, Conference Championships are January 20, Super Bowl XXV is in
    Tampa on January 27 and the Pro Bowl is in Honolulu on February 3.
    
    John
5.537Jim and Buddy together againAUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Wed Jul 11 1990 18:242
    The Philadelphia Eagles have signed free agent QB Jim McMahon as a
    backup to Randall Cunningham.
5.538PARVAX::WARDLEThe Tax man cometh..Jim FlorioWed Jul 11 1990 19:0422
5.539It ain't over til it starts!1DECXPS::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Fri Jul 13 1990 08:474
    Well, since you asked, the Jests season begins on Sunday, September
    9th in Cincinnati, and ends there that same day!!  :*)
    
    Lee
5.540FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Fri Jul 13 1990 11:017
    Jerry Seeman will be stepping down as an NFL referee after this season
    to replace the retiring Art McNally as NFL Supervisor of Officials. 
    Smilin' Jerry has been in the league for about 15 years and has been a
    referee since 1979.  He was the referee for Super Bowl XXIII in Miami
    between San Francisco and Cincinnati.
    
    John
5.541SASE::SZABOThings are picking up!Fri Jul 13 1990 11:0110
5.542give John an extra week to think about gaggingCNTROL::CHILDSjust lookin for some good clean funFri Jul 13 1990 11:325
 Yeah Hawk that two weeks has made all the difference in the world for
 the Donks....  ;^)

 mike
5.543SASE::SZABOThings are picking up!Fri Jul 13 1990 11:475
5.544CAM::WAYCandy crunch courtesy of McMahonFri Jul 13 1990 11:4730
< Note 5.542 by CNTROL::CHILDS "just lookin for some good clean fun" >
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Super tune, Mike.  That whole album is a bitchin' album.  The only
thing that would make it better were if Duane were with 'em.....


Re the Week off:

Personally, I like it.  I know that there's one Sunday during the
season that I can actually do something other than watch football.
I would never miss a Giants game...

I mean, it's funny.  When I was a kid, the nuns and priests always
told you how you had to go to Church every Sunday.  I thought that was
like a pretty big joke, kinda like the guys in Rotary, who couldn't
miss a meeting.

Well, I didn't care much about going to church, but I would NEVER miss
a Giants game....NEVER.

And it's the same now.  If the Giants are on, I'll find a way to watch
them.  Knowing that I have a Sunday in October where I can invite 
a pretty lady to check out the fall foliage, and do Sunday dinner, is
cool.

Course with my luck, it'd rain that day 8^)


'Saw
5.545CNTROL::CHILDSjust lookin for some good clean funFri Jul 13 1990 11:5810
        <<< Note 5.544 by CAM::WAY "Candy crunch courtesy of McMahon" >>>


>Super tune, Mike.  That whole album is a bitchin' album.  The only
>thing that would make it better were if Duane were with 'em.....


Saw, when did the Album come out? I know I need one bad!!!

mike
5.546CAM::WAYTreat me like the pig that I amFri Jul 13 1990 12:0111
Very recently.

I picked mine up last Sunday, in Sam Goody's at the Buckland Hills
Mall.  If they have it there, they've got to have it somewhere near
you....

Check out the title track 'Seven Turns' when you get it.  Dicky Betts
wrote it, and I kinda like it....

later,
'saw
5.547RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JOAnother awesomely beautiful dayFri Jul 13 1990 12:466
    Sam Goody?  Wasn't he a tight end for the Broncos, but moved to
    center when they signed Elway, but quit the team saying Mr. Ed's
    hoofs were too cold?  That Sam Goody?  I didn't realize he owned
    a record store.  My, how the might have fallen.
    
    JD
5.548CAM::WAYTreat me like the pig that I amFri Jul 13 1990 13:4511
Could be the same person, JD.

The store was decorated in an orange and blue motif, and most
of the staff was practicing the heimlich manuver on each other.

While I was there, a lady came in eating some chicken wings for
the KFC nexted door, and they threw her out... Only problem was
she was intercepted at the door....

Schlep this wonks your deen,
'Saw
5.549TC is a free agent. Anyone need a never-was?HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERAddress the ballFri Jul 13 1990 13:524
    Pat "Weasel-Face" Sullivan just said no to Tony Collins who wanted to
    re-establish his old connections with the Patriots.
    
    Dan
5.550In favor of the week off.CRBOSS::CLAYBROOKFri Jul 13 1990 14:5014
    I like the week off before the super bowl, not for the media hype, but
    the teams get to rest a little longer to get rid of all those little 
    nagging injuries. I read an article about them taking away the week
    and how it will effect the fans of the two teams going to the super 
    bowl. The article said that it is taking time away from them on
    preparing for trip, (season ticket holders that elect to go). You 
    find out your going one sunday and you've got to make all the
    arrangements and be there in about 5 days, it was a real interesting
    article, it had more set backs about it, it made a lot of sense.
    Also very interesting how the Jets are playing the Bengals first week
    of the season, since the Jets new coach was the Bengals offensive
    cordn. 
    
                                                    Dan
5.551HPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Tue Jul 17 1990 12:516
   Keith McCants signed with the Tamp Bay Buc's last week. I think
   he was the 3rd player taken over all. Don't remember the exact numbers
   of the contract but it sounded like they got him cheap, relatively
   speaking.

Chuck
5.552reply to .507WCSM::REIGELMANThu Jul 19 1990 18:02109
    
Here is something that I work on back in 1987 and now I see that the Will 
McDonough borrow my idea? I based my plans for expansion and realignment
of the NFL on Earl Weavers revised Major League Baseball. Also before St.
Louis became Phoenix. I didn't base this on TV rating either.


			The "Weaver Plan"
			Revised For The NFL

A plan on the same idea as Earl Weaver's for the NFL. This would mixed teams 
into geographic divisions but keep the AMERICAN CONFERENCE and the NATIONAL
CONFERENCE. The conferences would be broken into two divisions, EASTERN and 
WESTERN each with eight teams. The divisions would be farther broken into two 
conferences(like the old NFL). Keep the sixteen game regular season. Teams  
would play teams in their conferences twice and division opponents once (build  
in tie breaker for home field). This leaves six games free for the league to 
schedule.The playoff format could look one of two ways.

A. The conferences winners would play for the division titles. 
   The division winners would play for AFC and NFC titles.
   The AFC and NFC title winners would then play in the Super Bowl.
 

B. Teams finishing one and two in each conference would qualify for the 
   playoffs.(*)
   The first place team from one conference would play the second place team
   from the other conference but still in the same division. The conference
   winner would have home field regardless of their overall record.
   The winners would then play for the division championship.  
   The division winners would play for AFC and NFC titles.
   The AFC and NFC title winners would then play in the Super Bowl.
   
   (*)This could replace the wild card system now used. The problem that may 
      arise is teams with losing records or poorer records that another team in
      the other conference would qualify for the playoffs. Here is an alterna-
      tive plan that could be used. The conference winners and the next two 
      teams with the best records regardless of conference would qualify.  

Here is how the AFC and NFC would look under the "Weaver Plan"

				   AFC

		EASTERN DIVISION	          WESTERN DIVISION

Atlantic Conference Central Conference Midwest Conference Pacific Conference 
MIAMI		    BUFFALO	       CINCINNATI	  L.A. RAIDERS
NEW ENGLAND	    CLEVELAND	       DENVER	          SAN DIEGO
N.Y. JETS	    INDIANAPOLIS       HOUSTON		  SEATTLE	
EXPANSION TEAM (1)  PITTSBURGH	       KANSAS CITY	  EXPANSION TEAM (2)   


				   NFC

		EASTERN DIVISION	          WESTERN DIVISION

Eastern Conference Central Conference Midwest Conference Western Conference 
ATLANTA		   CHICAGO	      DALLAS		 L.A. RAMS
N.Y. GIANTS	   DETROIT	      NEW ORLEANS	 SAN FRANCISCO
PHILADELPHIA	   GREEN BAY	      ST. LOUIS		 EXPANSION TEAM (3)
WASHINGTON	   MINNESOTA	      TAMPA BAY		 EXPANSION TEAM (4)

Here is a list of prospective expansion teams
(1) BALTIMORE  (2) OAKLAND  (3) PORTLAND  (4) PHOENIX
Looks like a list of former USFL teams.

This mix of teams is set up into geographic divisions within a region. Natural
rivalries will be a by product of this. The owners might see a major beneficent
by cutting the cost of travel.This however didn't balance the strength of the
divisions or the conferences.


Here is a plan like Mr. Weaver's as we set up geographic divisions and align
teams regardless if they where in the NFC or AFC,but create a new AMERICAN
FOOTBALL CONFERENCE and NATIONAL FOOTBALL CONFERENCE. 
The schedule and playoff format could look the same as above.


				  NEW AFC

		EASTERN DIVISION	          WESTERN DIVISION

Northeast Conference Southern Conference Central Conference Midwest Conference 
BUFFALO		     ATLANTA	         CINCINNATI	    DALLAS
NEW ENGLAND	     MIAMI	         CLEVELAND	    DENVER
N.Y. JETS	     NEW ORLEANS         INDIANAPOLIS	    HOUSTON	
N.Y. GAINTS          TAMPA BAY	         ST. LOUIS(5)	    KANSAS CITY 

				   NEW NFC

		EASTERN DIVISION	          WESTERN DIVISION

Eastern Conference Central Conference Northwest Conference Southwest Conference 
EXPANSION TEAM (1) CHIAGO	      EXPANSION TEAM (2)   L.A. RAIDERS
PHILADELPHIA       DETROIT	      EXPANSION TEAM (3)   L.A. RAMS
PITTSBURGH	   GREEN BAY	      SAN FRANCISO	   EXPANSION TEAM (4)
WASHINGTON	   MINNESTOA	      SEATTLE		   SAN DIEGO

Here is a list of prospective expansion teams
(1) BALTIMORE  (2) OAKLAND/SACRAMENTO  (3) PORTLAND  (4) PHOENIX

*07/19/1990 Now I would add to expansion cities in this manner.
(1) BALTIMORE/CHARLOTTE
(5) Now ST. LOUIS becomes an expansion city with BIRMINGHAM and MEMPHIS added
    as possible sites for the opening in the new AFC Central Conference.  

JACKSONVILLE, MONTREAL, and TORONTO also as possible sites.


5.553FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Thu Jul 19 1990 18:588
    The only flaw in the plan is balancing the TV markets between the two
    conferences, and keeping teams in 2 cities (Giants and Jets, Rams and
    Raiders) in 2 different conferences.  That's an important principle the
    NFL must follow in its realignment, and which is why McDonough
    mentioned the possibility of the Eagles and Bills switching
    conferences.
    
    John
5.554NFL Byes for 9033945::HAASsame as talking to youFri Jul 20 1990 13:5435
Wk Team			Division
 4 ATLANTA		NFC West
 4 LA RAMS
 4 NEW ORLEANS
 4 SAN FRANCISCO

 5 NY GIANTS		NFC East
 5 PHILADELPHIA
 5 PHOENIX
 5 WASHINGTON

 6 BUFFALO		AFC East
 6 INDIANAPOLIS
 6 MIAMI
 6 NEW ENGLAND

 7 CHICAGO		NFC Central
 7 DETROIT
 7 GREEN BAY
 7 MINNESOTA

 8 DENVER		AFC West
 8 KANSAS CITY
 8 LA RAIDERS
 8 SEATTLE

10 CINCINNATI		AFC Central
10 CLEVELAND
10 HOUSTON
10 PITTSBURGH

14 DALLAS		NFC East
14 NY JETS		AFC East
14 SAN DIEGO		AFC West
14 TAMPA BAY		NFC Central
5.555NFL Schedule 9033945::HAASsame as talking to youFri Jul 20 1990 13:57244
		    1990 NFL Schedule

     wk date     time  visitor          HOME
     -- -------- ----- ---------------- ---------------
      1 09-09-90 13:00 seattle          CHICAGO
      1 09-09-90 13:00 tampa bay        DETROIT
      1 09-09-90 13:00 la rams          GREEN BAY
      1 09-09-90 13:00 minnesota        KANSAS CITY
      1 09-09-90 13:00 phoenix          WASHINGTON
      1 09-09-90 16:00 houston          ATLANTA
      1 09-09-90 16:00 indianapolis     BUFFALO
      1 09-09-90 16:00 ny jets          CINCINNATI
      1 09-09-90 16:00 pittsburgh       CLEVELAND
      1 09-09-90 16:00 san diego        DALLAS
      1 09-09-90 16:00 denver           LA RAIDERS
      1 09-09-90 16:00 miami            NEW ENGLAND
      1 09-09-90 20:00 philadelphia     NY GIANTS
      1 09-10-90 21:00 san francisco    NEW ORLEANS

      2 09-16-90 13:00 atlanta          DETROIT
      2 09-16-90 13:00 chicago          GREEN BAY
      2 09-16-90 13:00 new england      INDIANAPOLIS
      2 09-16-90 13:00 buffalo          MIAMI
      2 09-16-90 13:00 cleveland        NY JETS
      2 09-16-90 13:00 phoenix          PHILADELPHIA
      2 09-16-90 13:00 la rams          TAMPA BAY
      2 09-16-90 16:00 ny giants        DALLAS
      2 09-16-90 16:00 new orleans      MINNESOTA
      2 09-16-90 16:00 cincinnati       SAN DIEGO
      2 09-16-90 16:00 washington       SAN FRANCISCO
      2 09-16-90 16:00 la raiders       SEATTLE
      2 09-16-90 20:00 houston          PITTSBURGH
      2 09-17-90 21:00 kansas city      DENVER

      3 09-23-90 13:00 minnesota        CHICAGO
      3 09-23-90 13:00 new england      CINCINNATI
      3 09-23-90 13:00 san diego        CLEVELAND
      3 09-23-90 13:00 kansas city      GREEN BAY
      3 09-23-90 13:00 indianapolis     HOUSTON
      3 09-23-90 13:00 phoenix          NEW ORLEANS
      3 09-23-90 13:00 miami            NY GIANTS
      3 09-23-90 13:00 dallas           WASHINGTON
      3 09-23-90 16:00 seattle          DENVER
      3 09-23-90 16:00 pittsburgh       LA RAIDERS
      3 09-23-90 16:00 philadelphia     LA RAMS
      3 09-23-90 16:00 atlanta          SAN FRANCISCO
      3 09-23-90 20:00 detroit          TAMPA BAY
      3 09-24-90 21:00 buffalo          NY JETS

      4 09-30-90 13:00 denver           BUFFALO
      4 09-30-90 13:00 green bay        DETROIT
      4 09-30-90 13:00 tampa bay        MINNESOTA
      4 09-30-90 13:00 dallas           NY GIANTS
      4 09-30-90 13:00 indianapolis     PHILADELPHIA
      4 09-30-90 13:00 miami            PITTSBURGH
      4 09-30-90 16:00 cleveland        KANSAS CITY
      4 09-30-90 16:00 chicago          LA RAIDERS
      4 09-30-90 16:00 ny jets          NEW ENGLAND
      4 09-30-90 16:00 houston          SAN DIEGO
      4 09-30-90 20:00 washington       PHOENIX
      4 10-01-90 21:00 cincinnati       SEATTLE

      5 10-07-90 13:00 new orleans      ATLANTA
      5 10-07-90 13:00 tampa bay        DALLAS
      5 10-07-90 13:00 san francisco    HOUSTON
      5 10-07-90 13:00 kansas city      INDIANAPOLIS
      5 10-07-90 13:00 ny jets          MIAMI
      5 10-07-90 13:00 detroit          MINNESOTA
      5 10-07-90 13:00 seattle          NEW ENGLAND
      5 10-07-90 13:00 san diego        PITTSBURGH
      5 10-07-90 16:00 green bay        CHICAGO
      5 10-07-90 16:00 cincinnati       LA RAMS
      5 10-07-90 19:30 la raiders       BUFFALO
      5 10-08-90 21:00 cleveland        DENVER

      6 10-14-90 13:00 san francisco    ATLANTA
      6 10-14-90 13:00 houston          CINCINNATI
      6 10-14-90 13:00 detroit          KANSAS CITY
      6 10-14-90 13:00 cleveland        NEW ORLEANS
      6 10-14-90 13:00 san diego        NY JETS
      6 10-14-90 13:00 green bay        TAMPA BAY
      6 10-14-90 16:00 pittsburgh       DENVER
      6 10-14-90 16:00 seattle          LA RAIDERS
      6 10-14-90 16:00 dallas           PHOENIX
      6 10-14-90 16:00 ny giants        WASHINGTON
      6 10-14-90 19:30 la rams          CHICAGO
      6 10-15-90 21:00 minnesota        PHILADELPHIA

      7 10-18-90 20:00 new england      MIAMI
      7 10-21-90 13:00 ny jets          BUFFALO
      7 10-21-90 13:00 new orleans      HOUSTON
      7 10-21-90 13:00 denver           INDIANAPOLIS
      7 10-21-90 13:00 dallas           TAMPA BAY
      7 10-21-90 13:00 philadelphia     WASHINGTON
      7 10-21-90 16:00 atlanta          LA RAMS
      7 10-21-90 16:00 phoenix          NY GIANTS
      7 10-21-90 16:00 la raiders       SAN DIEGO
      7 10-21-90 16:00 pittsburgh       SAN FRANCISCO
      7 10-21-90 16:00 kansas city      SEATTLE
      7 10-22-90 21:00 cincinnati       CLEVELAND

      8 10-28-90 13:00 philadelphia     DALLAS
      8 10-28-90 13:00 minnesota        GREEN BAY
      8 10-28-90 13:00 ny jets          HOUSTON
      8 10-28-90 13:00 miami            INDIANAPOLIS
      8 10-28-90 13:00 buffalo          NEW ENGLAND
      8 10-28-90 13:00 detroit          NEW ORLEANS
      8 10-28-90 16:00 washington       NY GIANTS
      8 10-28-90 16:00 chicago          PHOENIX
      8 10-28-90 16:00 tampa bay        SAN DIEGO
      8 10-28-90 16:00 cleveland        SAN FRANCISCO
      8 10-28-90 20:00 cincinnati       ATLANTA
      8 10-29-90 21:00 la rams          PITTSBURGH

      9 11-04-90 13:00 new orleans      CINCINNATI
      9 11-04-90 13:00 buffalo          CLEVELAND
      9 11-04-90 13:00 washington       DETROIT
      9 11-04-90 13:00 san francisco    GREEN BAY
      9 11-04-90 13:00 la raiders       KANSAS CITY
      9 11-04-90 13:00 phoenix          MIAMI
      9 11-04-90 13:00 dallas           NY JETS
      9 11-04-90 13:00 new england      PHILADELPHIA
      9 11-04-90 13:00 atlanta          PITTSBURGH
      9 11-04-90 16:00 houston          LA RAMS
      9 11-04-90 16:00 san diego        SEATTLE
      9 11-04-90 16:00 chicago          TAMPA BAY
      9 11-04-90 20:00 denver           MINNESOTA
      9 11-05-90 21:00 ny giants        INDIANAPOLIS

     10 11-11-90 13:00 phoenix          BUFFALO
     10 11-11-90 13:00 atlanta          CHICAGO
     10 11-11-90 13:00 minnesota        DETROIT
     10 11-11-90 13:00 seattle          KANSAS CITY
     10 11-11-90 13:00 indianapolis     NEW ENGLAND
     10 11-11-90 13:00 tampa bay        NEW ORLEANS
     10 11-11-90 13:00 miami            NY JETS
     10 11-11-90 16:00 green bay        LA RAIDERS
     10 11-11-90 16:00 ny giants        LA RAMS
     10 11-11-90 16:00 denver           SAN DIEGO
     10 11-11-90 20:00 san francisco    DALLAS
     10 11-12-90 21:00 washington       PHILADELPHIA

     11 11-18-90 13:00 philadelphia     ATLANTA
     11 11-18-90 13:00 new england      BUFFALO
     11 11-18-90 13:00 houston          CLEVELAND
     11 11-18-90 13:00 san diego        KANSAS CITY
     11 11-18-90 13:00 detroit          NY GIANTS
     11 11-18-90 13:00 new orleans      WASHINGTON
     11 11-18-90 16:00 chicago          DENVER
     11 11-18-90 16:00 ny jets          INDIANAPOLIS
     11 11-18-90 16:00 dallas           LA RAMS
     11 11-18-90 16:00 green bay        PHOENIX
     11 11-18-90 16:00 tampa bay        SAN FRANCISCO
     11 11-18-90 16:00 minnesota        SEATTLE
     11 11-18-90 20:00 pittsburgh       CINCINNATI
     11 11-19-90 21:00 la raiders       MIAMI

     12 11-22-90 12:30 denver           DETROIT
     12 11-22-90 16:00 washington       DALLAS
     12 11-25-90 13:00 indianapolis     CINCINNATI
     12 11-25-90 13:00 miami            CLEVELAND
     12 11-25-90 13:00 tampa bay        GREEN BAY
     12 11-25-90 13:00 chicago          MINNESOTA
     12 11-25-90 13:00 atlanta          NEW ORLEANS
     12 11-25-90 13:00 ny giants        PHILADELPHIA
     12 11-25-90 16:00 kansas city      LA RAIDERS
     12 11-25-90 16:00 pittsburgh       NY JETS
     12 11-25-90 16:00 new england      PHOENIX
     12 11-25-90 16:00 la rams          SAN FRANCISCO
     12 11-25-90 20:00 seattle          SAN DIEGO
     12 11-26-90 21:00 buffalo          HOUSTON

     13 12-02-90 13:00 philadelphia     BUFFALO
     13 12-02-90 13:00 detroit          CHICAGO
     13 12-02-90 13:00 la rams          CLEVELAND
     13 12-02-90 13:00 kansas city      NEW ENGLAND
     13 12-02-90 13:00 cincinnati       PITTSBURGH
     13 12-02-90 13:00 atlanta          TAMPA BAY
     13 12-02-90 13:00 miami            WASHINGTON
     13 12-02-90 16:00 new orleans      DALLAS
     13 12-02-90 16:00 la raiders       DENVER
     13 12-02-90 16:00 indianapolis     PHOENIX
     13 12-02-90 16:00 ny jets          SAN DIEGO
     13 12-02-90 16:00 houston          SEATTLE
     13 12-02-90 20:00 green bay        MINNESOTA
     13 12-03-90 21:00 ny giants        SAN FRANCISCO

     14 12-09-90 13:00 phoenix          ATLANTA
     14 12-09-90 13:00 san francisco    CINCINNATI
     14 12-09-90 13:00 seattle          GREEN BAY
     14 12-09-90 13:00 cleveland        HOUSTON
     14 12-09-90 13:00 buffalo          INDIANAPOLIS
     14 12-09-90 13:00 minnesota        NY GIANTS
     14 12-09-90 13:00 new england      PITTSBURGH
     14 12-09-90 16:00 denver           KANSAS CITY
     14 12-09-90 16:00 new orleans      LA RAMS
     14 12-09-90 16:00 chicago          WASHINGTON
     14 12-09-90 20:00 philadelphia     MIAMI
     14 12-10-90 21:00 la raiders       DETROIT

     15 12-15-90 12:30 buffalo          NY GIANTS
     15 12-15-90 16:00 washington       NEW ENGLAND
     15 12-16-90 13:00 atlanta          CLEVELAND
     15 12-16-90 13:00 phoenix          DALLAS
     15 12-16-90 13:00 houston          KANSAS CITY
     15 12-16-90 13:00 seattle          MIAMI
     15 12-16-90 13:00 pittsburgh       NEW ORLEANS
     15 12-16-90 13:00 indianapolis     NY JETS
     15 12-16-90 13:00 green bay        PHILADELPHIA
     15 12-16-90 13:00 minnesota        TAMPA BAY
     15 12-16-90 16:00 san diego        DENVER
     15 12-16-90 16:00 cincinnati       LA RAIDERS
     15 12-16-90 20:00 chicago          DETROIT
     15 12-17-90 21:00 san francisco    LA RAMS

     16 12-22-90 12:30 detroit          GREEN BAY
     16 12-22-90 16:00 la raiders       MINNESOTA
     16 12-22-90 20:00 washington       INDIANAPOLIS
     16 12-23-90 13:00 la rams          ATLANTA
     16 12-23-90 13:00 miami            BUFFALO
     16 12-23-90 13:00 tampa bay        CHICAGO
     16 12-23-90 13:00 cincinnati       HOUSTON
     16 12-23-90 13:00 new england      NY JETS
     16 12-23-90 13:00 dallas           PHILADELPHIA
     16 12-23-90 13:00 cleveland        PITTSBURGH
     16 12-23-90 16:00 ny giants        PHOENIX
     16 12-23-90 16:00 kansas city      SAN DIEGO
     16 12-23-90 16:00 new orleans      SAN FRANCISCO
     16 12-23-90 20:00 denver           SEATTLE

     17 12-29-90 12:30 kansas city      CHICAGO
     17 12-29-90 16:00 philadelphia     PHOENIX
     17 12-30-90 13:00 dallas           ATLANTA
     17 12-30-90 13:00 cleveland        CINCINNATI
     17 12-30-90 13:00 indianapolis     MIAMI
     17 12-30-90 13:00 san francisco    MINNESOTA
     17 12-30-90 13:00 ny giants        NEW ENGLAND
     17 12-30-90 13:00 buffalo          WASHINGTON
     17 12-30-90 16:00 green bay        DENVER
     17 12-30-90 16:00 san diego        LA RAIDERS
     17 12-30-90 16:00 detroit          SEATTLE
     17 12-30-90 16:00 ny jets          TAMPA BAY
     17 12-30-90 20:00 pittsburgh       HOUSTON
     17 12-31-90 20:00 la rams          NEW ORLEANS
5.556Charlotte looking good33945::HAASsame as talking to youMon Jul 23 1990 11:547
NFL owners are set to confirm a plan for expansion for 1992 and 1993.
Supposedly, there is nearly unanimous agreement to expand and the only
issue is to reward franchises to some of the old cities - Baltimore and
St. Louis are being mentioned - or to some of the new cities, such as
Charlotte and Memphis.

TTom
5.557WMOIS::RIEU_DRead his Lips...Know New Taxes!!Mon Jul 23 1990 13:073
       Don't they have to get a collective bargaining agreement with the
    players before they cain expand?
                                   Denny
5.558FSHQA1::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Jul 23 1990 15:388
    65 year old NFL referee Ben Dreith has filed an age discrimination suit
    against the NFL in protest of his demotion from referee to line judge.
    Fred Wyant is also being demoted but there's no suit involved there.
    
    There's a weekly column in the Sporting News called The Quarterback
    written by Vito Stellino.  Further details are in there.
    
    John
5.559WMOIS::RIEU_DRead his Lips...Know New Taxes!!Mon Jul 23 1990 16:002
       We'd all be much happier if ol' Ben woulda retired in '75, eh John?
                                            Denny
5.560for any Cardinal fans out there, good luckPNO::HEISERlast dazeTue Jul 24 1990 16:588
    The Phoenix Cardinals opened up camped yesterday in Flagstaff, AZ.  
    
    DL Hairston (ex-Brown) was in camp.  Roy Green is expected to sign his
    contract and be in camp by week's end.
    
    Other than that it was non-eventful.
    
    Mike
5.561Cowboys' training camp newsAUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Tue Jul 24 1990 17:029
    Austin, TX is starting to be bad news for pro football players.  The
    Cowboys are now holding camp in Austin (so far it's rained for the
    entire camp - something about this black cloud that follows the 'boys
    around).  WR Kelvin Martin was arrested for speeding the other night
    (Ken Simms, ex-New England Pat was arrested for same a few weeks ago).  
    
    This part should probably go into the Joke topic, but:  While trying to
    outrun the cops, he headed for a parking garage.  The problem was, the
    garage he decided to hide in was the one for the APD headquarters.
5.56215436::LEFEBVRESleep Keeps Me AwakeTue Jul 24 1990 17:116
>        Other than that it was non-eventful.

    Just like the rest of the 1990 season.
    
    Mark.    

5.563Long term contractsCIM::BROWNWed Jul 25 1990 12:3713
    
    The Detroit Lions are having some trouble with some of their
    players currently under contract.  Jerry Ball and Lomas Brown
    want their contracts re-negotiated.  Ball has two years left on
    a 5 year contract and Brown has a year left.  I can't understand
    these players that demand long term contracts, they get them and
    in the middle of the contract they want to renegotiate them.
    
    The GM for the Lions said "Why bother giving players long term
    contracts if they do not live up to them."  Are any other teams
    having the same trouble as the Lions?
    
    /pjb
5.564MCIS1::DHAMELBeat the heat: Note nakedWed Jul 25 1990 13:1827
    
    When the party of the first part signs a contract with the party
    of the second part, both sides are taking some risk.
    
    The player's (talking foo'ball, bassetball, and bazeball too)
    production may tail off, and he's still paid the big bucks. Take
    Bob Stanley as an example, or Mark Langston, or Tony Eason, (although
    I believe the Pat's had an "out" clause somewhere with Eason if
    he were released.)  If the contract is guaranteed, the player wins
    and management loses.
    
    On the other hand, if a player continues to excell, and comparable
    players in the league are surpassing his take-home pay, this player
    feels like he's screwed.  Funny, but this same player felt he was
    screwing management when he originally signed his contract.  Management
    wins and the player "loses."
    
    The only way re-negotions will stop is if management in all sports
    decide that "enough is enough. You signed it.  You don't like it,
    don't play.  How would the players association feel if we asked
    certain players to re-negotiate down after an off year?  We'd be
    in court so fast...."
    
    You pay/accept the money, you takes yer chances.
    
    Dickster
    
5.565FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Jul 25 1990 13:2418
    Dickster,
    
    The difference between baseball and basketball vs football is that in
    the first two, most contracts are guaranteed.  In the NFL, very few
    are.  If a baseball or basketball player signs a long term contract and
    then turns into a dog, the team is stuck with him because the contract
    is likely guaranteed.  In football, since they aren't guaranteed, if a
    player starts playing lousy, it's see you later.
    
    In Eason's case, the team in effect had to pay him for half the season
    because he's a vested veteran.  NFL players accumulate pay at 1/16
    salary for each game they're under contract (active, inactive,
    developmental or injured).  A 5-year veteran gets half a season salary
    guaranteed if he's released before half the season is over.  After
    that, the team is only liable for each game he's on the roster.  There
    was no special out clause, he just didn't have a guaranteed contract.
    
    John
5.566QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Wed Jul 25 1990 16:5714
   Anyone had any word on whether or not they'll be allowing the teams to
   continue the developmental squads?

   I think it used to be up to six guys. I heard the players association
   was griping because pay for the D Squad was $1000 per week (for the
   weeks they are there... I think about 28 -32 weeks). The minimum for a
   rookie is $60K. I'd suspect the guys on the D Squad would like to tell
   the Players Association to put it where the sun don't shine (I hear
   people say that, and have always assumed they meant Seattle...
   HAHAHAHA  (tm)). They'd probably much rather be getting paid 28 -  32K
   to work on their game, than be getting whatever they might manage to
   earn in the real world.

   Mike JN
5.567FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Jul 25 1990 16:585
    The Developmental Squads have been discontinued, the teams will be
    allowed to have 45 men active for each game and 2 inactives per game
    for a total of a 47-man active roster.
    
    John
5.568Charlotte's planned stadium unvealedSHALOT::MEDVIDmuscle and hateThu Jul 26 1990 17:3019
    To answer the note in the Charlotte Hornets note, the Queen City seems to
    have come out the front runner in expansion into new markets.  About
    half the front page of the Observer today shows newly released
    architectural drawings of the proposed stadium.  Looks suspiciously
    identical to Joe Robbie Statium.
    
    The article quotes the Chicago Tribune as saying the NFL plans to
    expand by two teams in '93, one new market and one city that previously
    had a team and that the front runners seem to be Charlotte and St.
    Louis.  
    
    Even though the stadium is a copy, it looks like a beaut, especially
    with the ever-growing uptown area in the background.  Joe Robbie
    stadium sits out in the middle of nothing which kind of makes it look
    like a monster on the horizon.
    
    FWIW.
    
    	--dan'l
5.569More on the Queen City's NFL hopesSHALOT::HUNTWyld Stallyns RulesThu Jul 26 1990 17:4322
    The articles in today's "Charlotte Observer" went on to explain that
    the architectural design firm is the same one that designed Joe Robbie
    Stadium.  Hence the coincidence.
    
    Also, apparently the late Joe Robbie gave some advice to the Richardson
    Sports group that is looking to bring a franchise to Charlotte.  Robbie
    advised the group to design a 70,000 seat stadium instead of a 65,000
    seater.   With 70,000 seats, the stadium authority can bid for the
    Super Bowl.  65,000 couldn't, I guess.
    
    One other factor is in Charlotte's favor and that is the plans for the
    stadium call for mostly, if not fully private funding.  Baltimore, on
    the other hand, will use all public bond issue funds for a new stadium
    and thus can't break ground until a franchise is granted.   The
    Richardsons have said that they want to wait until a franchise is
    secured but the fact is they *could* start the construction whenever
    they want to.
    
    An NFL team in Charlotte would be wonderful.   I would line up for
    season tix in a flash.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.570Land is being cleared as we noteSHALOT::MEDVIDmuscle and hateThu Jul 26 1990 17:5914
>    Richardsons have said that they want to wait until a franchise is
>    secured but the fact is they *could* start the construction whenever
>    they want to.
    
    In fact, the city started clearing the land a few weeks ago so as soon
    as the papers are signed, the Richardsons will start digging and I hope
    the property value for my uptown condo will rise, not fall because of
    it.  That's what I was banking on when I bought the place a few months
    ago.  So you see, while I'm standing in line with Bob for tickets I'll
    be discussing either the great resale value I'll have or the biggest
    financial bungle of my young life.
    
    	--dan'l
    
5.571QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Thu Jul 26 1990 18:0010
   The paper today said a poll was conducted among EX-NFL  Quarterbacks
   inquiring as to who they would rate as the top quarterbacks among those
   currently in the league. In spite of such avowed Elway-haters as
   Bradshaw and Unitas (never forgave him re: Baltimore, so still has a
   stiffened appendage for Mr Ed) the results were:
   	1) Montana
   	2) Marino
   	3) Elway

   Mike JN
5.572RHETT::KNORRCarolina BlueThu Jul 26 1990 18:175
    At last!  An NFL team near my home!!! 
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
5.573I can think of others who are betterCNTROL::CHILDSand so castles made of sand...Fri Jul 27 1990 09:0921
>   The paper today said a poll was conducted among EX-NFL  Quarterbacks
>   inquiring as to who they would rate as the top quarterbacks among those
>   currently in the league. In spite of such avowed Elway-haters as
>   Bradshaw and Unitas (never forgave him re: Baltimore, so still has a
>   stiffened appendage for Mr Ed) the results were:
   	1) Montana
   	2) Marino
   	3) Elway

   Mike JN


What do expect from a Denver paper to say the bum came in last? :^) How a
QB who has thrown as many intys as TD's can be rated so high is beyond me.
Again I guess they just rated him for his athletic ability and not his actual
play calling or leadership abilities....

Anyways thanks for the laugh, Mike....

mike 
5.574QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Fri Jul 27 1990 13:5613
5.575CNTROL::CHILDSand so castles made of sand...Fri Jul 27 1990 14:358
 Tee Shirts have been ordered and hopefully will be done pretty soon.
 It might be a bit though as they realize that the game isn't until
 8/25 so they might get less priorities than other orders but rest
 assured they will be done and you'll get one, of course after I
 receive some moolha....

 mike
5.576PARVAX::WARDLEhave YOU been set hidden todayFri Jul 27 1990 16:383
    Hey gang...does anyone have the schedule of "by's" for this season?
    
    JoJ
5.577STAR::YANKOWSKASPaul YankowskasFri Jul 27 1990 16:474
    JoJ, the list of byes is in note 5.554.
    
    
    py
5.578JoJ, GREAT P-NAME!!!!!!CSTEAM::FARLEYHave YOU seen Elvis today??Fri Jul 27 1990 16:551
    
5.579Congrats JoJ I I'm really sorry about thisRSST6::RIGGENBurley from bikingFri Jul 27 1990 17:0317
1 09-09-90 16:00 ny jets          CINCINNATI
2 09-16-90 13:00 cleveland        NY JETS
3 09-24-90 21:00 buffalo          NY JETS
4 09-30-90 16:00 ny jets          NEW ENGLAND
5 10-07-90 13:00 ny jets          MIAMI
6 10-14-90 13:00 san diego        NY JETS
7 10-21-90 13:00 ny jets          BUFFALO
8 10-28-90 13:00 ny jets          HOUSTON
9 11-04-90 13:00 dallas           NY JETS
10 11-11-90 13:00 miami            NY JETS
11 11-18-90 16:00 ny jets          INDIANAPOLIS
12 11-25-90 16:00 pittsburgh       NY JETS
13 12-02-90 16:00 ny jets          SAN DIEGO
Week 14 nobody has a bye
15 12-16-90 13:00 indianapolis     NY JETS
16 12-23-90 13:00 new england      NY JETS
 
5.580they will still beat the Skins once this yearHPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Fri Jul 27 1990 17:348
      JOJ,

         Look up the Cowboy schedule. :-)

         Cowboys schedule == by for other team

      Chuck
5.581Charlotte and the Super BowlSHALOT::MEDVIDmuscle and hateSun Jul 29 1990 18:2939
>            <<< Note 5.569 by SHALOT::HUNT "Wyld Stallyns Rules" >>>
>                    -< More on the Queen City's NFL hopes >-
>
>    Also, apparently the late Joe Robbie gave some advice to the Richardson
>    Sports group that is looking to bring a franchise to Charlotte.  Robbie
>    advised the group to design a 70,000 seat stadium instead of a 65,000
>    seater.   With 70,000 seats, the stadium authority can bid for the
>    Super Bowl.  65,000 couldn't, I guess.
    
    I've been thinking about this.  There's just no way the NFL would award
    the Super Bowl to Charlotte.  I can think of two reasons:
    
    	- There's too much of a chance for cold weather.  During the
    	  Super Bowl this year the temperature was in the 60's.  But only a
    	  few days later it dropped into the 40's.  Personally, I think it
    	  would be kind of neat to play the Super Bowl in colder weather
    	  for once.  But unless this global warming stuff happens within
    	  the decade, the weather alone eliminates Charlotte.
    
    	- There's nothing to do in Charlotte, especially in the winter.
    	  Charlotte is a nice place to live, but I'd never want to visit
    	  here.  The beach is too cold so there goes that package deal.
    	  The mountains MAY have snow, but imagine someone coming from
    	  Denver or New England (unlikely, but just imagine); they'd
    	  laugh at what we call mountains.
    
    	  Perhaps everyone could take PTL tours or visit the empty
    	  Charlotte Motor Speedway.  
    
    	  Then again, was there anything to do in Pontiac in '82?
    
    I'd love to see Charlotte get the Super Bowl, but I just don't see it
    happening.  It's a good thing the NBA All-Star Game has other events
    beside the game itself.
    
    	--dan'l
    
    
    
5.582PARVAX::WARDLEhave YOU been set hidden todayMon Jul 30 1990 10:175
    Thanks Paul....I knew it had to be posted somewhere.
    
    Hey Jeff_on_Break (a.k.a. JoB), sorry for what? 
    
    JoJ
5.583Congrats JoJRSST6::RIGGENBurley from bikingMon Jul 30 1990 12:193
JoJ

I'm not sorry for anything. I just thought I'd apologize for no apparent reason.
5.584PARVAX::WARDLEhave YOU been set hidden todayMon Jul 30 1990 12:553
    oh, good...in that case, I'm sorry too.
    
    JoJ
5.585REFINE::ASHEZiggy piggy, ZIGGY piggy, ZIGGY PIGGYMon Jul 30 1990 16:421
    Have the Pats thoght about grabbing the Majik dude?
5.586.AIMHI::DONNELLYDare to be diffidentMon Jul 30 1990 17:154
    The Pats have stated that they are not interested in Majkowski.
    
         Too expensive.  Besides, "Tommy Hodson is our quarterback of the
    future."
5.587C-ya Mark WilsonEARRTH::BROOKSRubItUp/FlipIt/SlapItDown/OhNoooo!Mon Jul 30 1990 17:254
    re .586
    
    Or Micheal Proctor .... both looked awfully good in the controlled
    scrimmage against the Skins ....
5.588AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Mon Jul 30 1990 17:283
    The Oilers may be shoppping around for a backup QB.  Cody Carlson is
    holding out, and the others in camp did not impress against the
    Cowboys.
5.589whither the development squads anyhoo?AIMHI::DONNELLYDare to be diffidentMon Jul 30 1990 18:5915
    Guys like Michael Proctor are a good argument for the development
    squads.  From all reports, this kid has the talent but just needs more
    time/experience.  Even a team as lame as the Pats isn't going to throw
    him into the fray during a regular season game.  The development squads
    are a perfect way to bring along young players who can't crack the
    roster and I really don't understand why the NFL did away with them.
    They sure don't detract from the game, if anything the opposite is
    true.  With the extra week of TV revenue this year, it doesn't seem like 
    it would've been a financial decision.
    
    I remember Red Auerbach catching some flak a few years ago for his
    comments on the NBA having the best minor league system in sports - the
    colleges.  It seems to me that the the underlying reason behind ditching
    the D-squads might be based on this same kind of 'logic'.
    
5.590design a pay scale for the little bratsHPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Mon Jul 30 1990 19:1610
    The reason the D-squads where done away with is because the player
    union has a law suit against the owners pending. You see  min wage for 
    an NFL player is $60k a year (gave or take a grand) and the D-squad 
    players were getting paid $1K a month. Not bad for a player who might
    develope and get offered a contract. The coaches liked the idea, the
    D-squad players liked it, but the owners and union have a date in court
    and both sides wants there back yard clean for battle.

Chuck
5.591QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Mon Jul 30 1990 19:1810
   The players Union is making it sound like it's the cheap, scumbag
   owners, trying to screw the players.

   Actually, It's the head of the player's union, trying to make it look
   like he's done SOMETHING for all the money he gets. It was a boneheaded
   gripe. The D Squad was good for the Teams, and good for the `not ready
   for Prime Time players'. Dropping the D Squad was a Lose/Lose
   situation.

   Mike JN
5.592GENRAL::WADEMamatruckstrainsprisonraingettin'drunkMon Jul 30 1990 19:239
    
    	I thought it was $1000/week?  Even so, that's 26 weeks (worst
    	case) which works out to about $150K for the year for 6(?)
    	players.  Don't 2cd string O-linemen make that in their
    	rookie years?  
    
    	They shouldn't have done away with the D-squad.
    
    	Claybone
5.593FSHQA2::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Tue Jul 31 1990 11:189
>    The Oilers may be shoppping around for a backup QB.  Cody Carlson is
>    holding out, and the others in camp did not impress against the
>   Cowboys.
    
     Maybe the Cowboys will be able to pass Walsh on to the Oilers.  He
    probably is not mobile enough to play the run-and-shoot but they could 
    involve another team ( like the Vikings who have always shown an
    interest for Walsh).  The Cowboys could get a RB from the Oilers for
    the rights to Walsh.
5.594AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Tue Jul 31 1990 13:091
    re .593:  The Oilers want a seasoned veteran as a backup to Moon.
5.595HPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Tue Jul 31 1990 13:2310
    Why is a Cody Carlson holding out, whats his worth to any other team?
    He should be happy the Oilers want to him to be there backup QB. Oilers
    should traded for MacPherson(sp) from Philly. Is he available now that
    Philly has Jim McMahon?

    Cowboys want a defensive player for Walsh. They have enough in the back
    field with Terrence Flagler, Keith Jones, and Emmith Smith(if they can
    sign him).

Chuck
5.596FRSBEE::BROOKSRubItUp/FlipIt/SlapItDown/OhNoooo!Thu Aug 02 1990 22:1216
    re .593
    
    We don't need no stinkin' Heifers like Walsh !
    
    :-)
    
    Seriously, I think Carlson will stay an Oiler. Cody is a semi-local
    product (San Antiono Churchill H.S. and Baylor), and he still needs
    work. However, he also knows that barring serious injury, Moon is an
    All-Pro for the next 3-5 years.
    
    Cody should remember however, that R&S QB's take a lot of hits. Can you
    say Steve Young ?
    
    BTW, it doesn't take super mobility to be a R&S QB, Jim Kelly isn't all
    that nimble, and he didn't do too badly with the Gamblers ....
5.597McPherson an OilerAUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Fri Aug 03 1990 12:224
    Don McPherson of the Eagles was traded to the Oilers for a conditional
    1991 draft pick.  The Oilers now have their backup QB if Cody doesn't
    sign (last I heard they were $100K apart), and the Eagles don't have a
    QB holding out either.
5.5984 super bowl losses keeps you out of HoFCIM::BROWNFri Aug 03 1990 13:3118
    
    ESPN did a piece on the upcoming HoF induction ceremonies.  They
    were talking about the Vikings and the players from the late
    60's and early 70's not making it into the HoF.  They attributed
    them not making it into the HoF because of 4 super bowl losses.
    
    They put up the stats of Mick Tinglehoff and compared them to 2
    centers that are already in the HoF.  Mick had equal or more pro-bowl
    appearances.  Also Jerry Krause had more interceptions than Mel Blount
    who is in the HoF.  Two other players were mentioned and both of
    them aren't in the HoF.
    
    The end of the piece had the stats for Elway and Mecklenburg and the
    question are these stats good enough along with 4 super bowl losses.
    
    \pjb
    
    
5.599Same in other sportsSHALOT::HUNTWyld Stallyns RulesFri Aug 03 1990 13:4211
    This is the *exact* same argument I've been using for years in talking
    about baseball's Hall Of Fame.
    
    Jim Bunning's numbers are every bit the equal of Jim "Catfish" Hunter. 
    Yet, Bunning is out and Hunter is in.  Hunter pitched for the A's and
    Yankees and has a fistful of rings.  Bunning toiled for the Tigers and
    Phillies and has just a wedding ring, I guess.
    
    Not fair.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.600LAGUNA::MAY_BRFri Aug 03 1990 13:473
    re a couple back:
    
    Does someone actually believe that Mecklinberg is a HoF candidate? 
5.601the Duke hahahaaaaaCNTROL::CHILDSNo One Here gets Out AliveFri Aug 03 1990 14:416
    
>    Does someone actually believe that Mecklinberg is a HoF candidate? 

 No I don't but he certainly rates more consideration that Mr. Ed...

mike
5.602SHALOT::MEDVIDmuscle and hateFri Aug 03 1990 15:515
    Elway and Mecklenberg were not around for Denver's first Super Bowl
    loss.  I don't think it's fare to the old Vikes, but it's also not fare
    to Elway and company as a comparison.
    
    	--dan'l
5.603EARRTH::BROOKSRubItUp/FlipIt/SlapItDown/OhNoooo!Fri Aug 03 1990 17:464
    I'm not sure if Krause merits HoF consideration, I never thought of him
    as much of a DB (lousy tackler and hitter, no WR feared him), but if
    Tinglehoff, Yar, Marshall, Eller, Page, et al get the shaft, it really
    sucks ....
5.604SHIRE::FINEUC1Mon Aug 06 1990 04:3315
>>            <<< Note 5.599 by SHALOT::HUNT "Wyld Stallyns Rules" >>>
>>    Yankees and has a fistful of rings.  Bunning toiled for the Tigers and
>>    Phillies and has just a wedding ring, I guess.
  
Absolutely, Bob,

Indeed, those who achieve great things for lesser teams should get *more*
recognition instead of less, but....

I'm not very good in baseball, but the example which comes straight to mind
is Marcel Dionne who was a great star for the LA Hockey Kings, but was always
in the shadow of others because he played for a mediocre team.

rick ellis

5.605A few thoughts on the HOF inductionsSHALOT::MEDVIDmuscle and hateMon Aug 06 1990 10:1321
5.606WMOIS::JBARROWSCatch ya on the flip sideTue Aug 14 1990 12:1415
    Offensive linemen Louis Cheek of the Dallas Cowboys and rookie John
    Brandom of the Phoenix Cardinals were suspended for violation the NFL's
    policy on anabolic steroids and related substances.
    
    A statement by the NFL said the action was taken after the players
    tested positive in training camp physicals.
    
    Cheek and Brandom were suspended for the next 2 weeks.  If their
    systems are then shown to be clear, they can resume practicing and
    playing.
    
    They will also be suspended without pay and placed on the
    reserve-non-football injury list the first 3 weeks of the regular
    season.
    
5.608An interesting fact....CAM::WAYTake FiveTue Aug 14 1990 18:4415
Just a trivial little piece of information to chew on
in this day and age of the $4,000,000 Quarterback....

The winners share for the very first NFL championship game
was:


		$210.22  (Chicago Bears)

while the loser got the paltry sum of $140.22 (New York Giants)....


Take *that* Joe Montana!

'Saw
5.609???FDCV07::GARBARINOIraqnaphobiaTue Aug 14 1990 19:1414
>    Cheek and Brandom were suspended for the next 2 weeks.  If their
>    systems are then shown to be clear, they can resume practicing and
>    playing.
    
>    They will also be suspended without pay and placed on the
>    reserve-non-football injury list the first 3 weeks of the regular
>    season.

What does the above mean ?  In 2 wks they can come back and play in the
last preseason game, but then they're out again for the 1st 3 regular
season games ????


Joe
5.610WMOIS::JBARROWSCatch ya on the flip sideTue Aug 14 1990 19:184
    That's all there was in the paper....anyone else care to elaborate
    on the facts???
    
    
5.611PARVAX::WARDLEMania Month has arrived...Tue Aug 14 1990 23:498
    Does anyone know the status of Ickey Woods? Is he practicing?
    
    Also, is Kevin Mack expected to play for the Browns?
    
    One last one...Gerald Riggs of the Redskins, anyone know if he's
    healthy right now?
    
    JoJ
5.612HPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Wed Aug 15 1990 11:197
Joe,

    Cheeks and Brandon can not practice with there teams for next the 2 weeks
    (leave camp). If they still make there teams final roster they must sit 
    out the first 3 games of the season without pay.

Chuck
5.613HPSRAD::SANTOSGirl is your husband married?Wed Aug 15 1990 11:247
    JoJ,
      
       Riggs is healthy and ready to go, but alot of people think hes
       shot, not the back he use to be because of all the pounding he
       took while in Atlanta.

    Chuck
5.614Hail to the ... Fumble !!!SHALOT::HUNTWyld Stallyns RulesWed Aug 15 1990 11:4224
5.615Steve J. where are you? ;^)\]CNTROL::CHILDSNo One Here gets Out AliveWed Aug 15 1990 12:0713
>    I love it. The Skins have four aged and shot backs and three of them
>    cough it up.   Heaven.
    
 
 Got to agree with ya Bob. Now that Dallas is firmly entrenched in the
 cellar (hard to believe with Bidwell around someone in the east is worst
 than the cardinals) we have to vent all of our hatred toward the Skins.
 Can't believe that some rags actually pick them ahead of the Giants and
 the Eagles. Sure they won their last five games last year but against
 who? As for the Eagles while they're our main competition it's hard to hate
 a team with Buddy running show....

 mike
5.616More ...SHALOT::HUNTWyld Stallyns RulesWed Aug 15 1990 12:3012
5.617FRSBEE::BROOKSDowhatchalike, NoteHowYaLike ....Wed Aug 15 1990 13:0126
    re .614
    
    BAd note Bob. As usual. :-)
    
    First of all, Rigss (when healthy) sure as heck didn't run like a
    used-up RB last year. Didn't he run for 220 yards in that first game
    against the Skins ? In fact, prior to 1989 Riggs had a reputation of
    being very protective of the football. Don't ask me to explain last
    year. As for Kelvin, he's young, and hardly washed-up, but has proven
    pretty conclusively that he can not be a feature back for 16 games. 
    
    But if Kelvin gets 10-15 runs, and 6-8 catches, and he's deadly. 
    
    Byner has never been all that impressive to me when he was in
    Cleveland, he'll back up Bryant. And James Wilder was used-up at least
    2 years ago. And it's really sad that he wasted his best years with
    such a pathetic team in Tampa Bay.
    
    In any case, I see less as being more. No back will be asked to carry
    the ball 30 times, and hopefully this will kepp people healthy and
    productive.
    
    I'm willing to bet that His Rudeness would grab Riggs or Bryant in a hot
    second if he could.
    
    Dr M
5.618AXIS::ROBICHAUDGo Brewers! I'm getting thirsty!!Wed Aug 15 1990 14:297
    	Hey Middy, Riggs coughs it up more than an asthmatic in the
    L.A. smog.  Maybe if Cooke can convince Tagliabue to rewrite the
    schedule so the 'Skins can play all teams under .500 there'll be
    a parade in Washington in January.  Otherwise the 'Skins can plan
    vacations for the first of the year.
    
    				/Don
5.619More ...SHALOT::HUNTWyld Stallyns RulesWed Aug 15 1990 14:5021
5.620The Eagles should have drafted Johnny BaileyEARRTH::BROOKSDowhatchalike, NoteHowYaLike ....Wed Aug 15 1990 17:083
    Maybe so Bob, but Byers hasn't impressed many people as a ball carrier.
    He has no wiggle, no jukes. He's a Herschel Walker without the world
    class speed and power - and that's bad news.
5.621I'm still here, MikeLUDWIG::JAMESWed Aug 15 1990 21:159
    Riggs had about 700 yards in the eight games he played last year.
    That doesn't sound like a washed up back to me. 
    
    The reason the skins won their last five was that Rypien didn't
    fumble every time he was sacked in those games. His first 12 sacks
    of the season resulted in turnovers and the poor start.
    At the end of the season, the skins will definitely be in contention.
    
                                 Steve J.
5.622this is the year we see if Gibbs is a genuis or notCNTROL::CHILDSNo One Here gets Out AliveThu Aug 16 1990 09:1317
True enough Steve about the fumbles but old habits are hard to break. Also
given that this year, teams will not respect the Skins running game, DL's
and LB's will be letting it all out in pursuit of Rypien not a pretty
picture unless of course you're like me and despise the Skins. Also the
offensive line is in transission, the defensive line doesn't appear to
be anymore than Mann so I expect other teams to control the ball for long
periods of time and leave Mark and crew on the bench. 

How's Green doing has he made a full recovery? One thing though you still
got the best trio of receivers in the league always a threat to break one
so you'll atleast be competitive.

I forsee alot of games with both teams scoring 25 to 35 points and hopefully
the Skins on the wrong side of them...

mike
5.623LAGUNA::MAY_BRThu Aug 16 1990 14:003
    
    It will be interesting to see what happens to the 'skins OL without
    Bugel.
5.624re -2LUDWIG::JAMESThu Aug 16 1990 20:244
    The skins are very deep at offensive line. The defensive line,
    on the other hand, is very suspect.
    
                                 Steve J.
5.625Why the Chiefs?BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsFri Aug 17 1990 13:0331
    I have heard over and over again that the KC Chiefs are the "strength"
    of the AFC West and I don't understand it.  The publications I've read
    predict the Chiefs to be either 1st or 2nd in the AFC West.
    
    I am astonished with the credit the Chiefs are getting all of a sudden. 
    And I DO believe that they are a better football team now than they
    were a couple years back.  But where's the super strength?
    
    Defense is better w/Thomas as LB, and the secondary was great, but
    they're not 23 anymore.  The secondary is on it's way down, not up.
    
    The offense is summed up in 1 word - Okoye.  He's good too, but where's
    the qb.  
    
    Actually I think people are giving the Chiefs credit because they
    believe that Shottenheimer is some sort of genius, and I have yet to
    see it.  He's good..no question!
    
    So I sum up the Chiefs as:
    
    	* improving D
    	* solid coaching
    	* good running back
    	* declining secondary
    	* neither line is outstanding
    	* weak qb (ALOT of interceptions)
    	* fair passing game.
    
    They're a decent team, but not the "strength" of the AFC West.
    
    Glenn
5.626110% ;-)AIMHI::DONNELLYDare to be diffidentFri Aug 17 1990 14:1114
5.627KC is not a quality team yet ...FRSBEE::BROOKSIs my character enough 2 be ...Fri Aug 17 1990 17:3513
    re .626
    
    Sorry Glen, I know you like KC, but they can't cut it. I agree with
    Glenn Mac - there is no way that KC is that good - yet. Their defense
    is an above average outfit, but that also partly due to the running of
    Okoyae (sp) (the less time the defense spent on the field, the fewer
    points they can give up). Otherwise the O is too boring, predictiable,
    and the team is too damn young.
    
    I wouldn't be suprised to see KC backslide a little, before taking the
    next step up ....
    
    DOc
5.628MINN vs CLE?? (moved by mod)AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Mon Aug 20 1990 12:4717
SCARGO::MILLER                                        8 lines  20-AUG-1990 07:38
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Does anybody have the score form last nights game with
    the Browns?????
    
    
    
    
    
================================================================================
Note 337.1                       MINN vs CLE ???                          1 of 1
NISYSG::DODA "Holy War! Batman"                        1 line  20-AUG-1990 07:50
                 -< 3rd stringers slap Dawgs back to reality >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VIKINGS 23-20
    
5.629SEA vs IND (moved by mod)AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Mon Aug 20 1990 12:4912
SCARGO::MILLER                                        3 lines  20-AUG-1990 07:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Does anybody have the score from this past weekends game with
    Indy??????
================================================================================
DECWET::CROUCH "Grand marshall of the dork parade"    3 lines  20-AUG-1990 08:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Seattle               13
    Indy                  10
    Degree of Dullness   9.9
    
5.630McMichael to the Oilers?AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Thu Aug 23 1990 12:385
    Contract talks between McMichael and the Bears have broken down.  One
    of the sticking points was that McMichael did not want to pay the $42K
    in fines levied against him for holding out.  The Bears have given him
    permission to seek a trade.  Word has it that McMichael is talking to
    the Oilers.
5.631make him an offer he can't refuse8852::BROWNBombBombBomb,BombBomb IraqThu Aug 23 1990 12:598
    
    Yo 
    
    	Send that boy back down to Texas so he'll feel more at home knockin
    them QB's on their butt's
    
    Cadzilla
    
5.632McMicheal, Childress, Jones, Fuller ... YEAH !FRSBEE::BROOKSA radical thinker on a musical levelThu Aug 23 1990 16:331
    HOuston ... PLEASE don't $&*!%) this one up !!!!!!
5.633neone have scores for these games??CRBOSS::DERRYSkankin' to the beat...Mon Aug 27 1990 09:433
    Detroit  KC 
    Bears    Raiders
    Seattle  Bucs
5.634CAM::WAYBarely 17 and we were barely dressedMon Aug 27 1990 12:457
< Note 5.633 by CRBOSS::DERRY "Skankin' to the beat..." >
                    -< neone have scores for these games?? >-

    Detroit  35  KC       21
    Bears     3  Raiders  20  -- Alzado played, looked okay
    Seattle  Bucs   ???

5.635the last pieceCNTROL::CHILDSBart Gimble,Jerry Hubbard,Happy KineMon Aug 27 1990 13:1310
      <<< Note 5.634 by CAM::WAY "Barely 17 and we were barely dressed" >>>

< Note 5.633 by CRBOSS::DERRY "Skankin' to the beat..." >
                    -< neone have scores for these games?? >-

    Detroit  35  KC       21
    Bears     3  Raiders  20  -- Alzado played, looked okay
    Seattle  10  Bucs      3


5.636raiders are back!!!I HOPE....WLDWST::LSUSTAITAWed Aug 29 1990 05:1610
    hay dude the raiders and chicago game is false
     LA Raiders 20 Chicago bears 3
    
    
    
                                  good game for preseaaon 
                            they go at it in regular season 
                             this year.
                                              Raider fan !!!!!
        
5.637BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsWed Aug 29 1990 12:434
    It should be a typical Raider / Charger game this Saturday.  Will the
    Raiders win?......I dunno, don't think so.
    
    Glenn
5.638RAIDERS VS CHARGERS DUMB ?RSST6::RIGGENBurley from bikingWed Aug 29 1990 14:078
I couldn't imagine playing a division rival in the final preseason game. This 
would make me play more of the fence players and not give the starters much 
playing time. The rivalry between these teams will make for a interesting 
matchup. 
I heard the Raiders OL has not given up a sack this season. Will O'Neal or 
Seau get the first ?

Jeff
5.639BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsThu Aug 30 1990 11:317
    You're right Jeff.  Playing a divisional opponent in PreSeason is
    stupid, but having to play them in the final PreSeason game really
    sucks.  You have to be careful not to show them much.  Although with
    the Raiders is doesn't matter much since they're pretty much 
    incapable of mental retention. ~/~
    
    Live from Charger Central....Glenn
5.640Are the Networks whispering in his ear?!!!WMOIS::RIEU_DRead his Lips...Know New Taxes!!Thu Aug 30 1990 13:555
       We all know how they changed some of the rules this year to keep the
    games under 3 hours, right? Now the commish says they're moving along
    TOO FAST. He wants to go back to stopping the clock after all kicks
    like in the past.
                                          Denny
5.641AXIS::ROBICHAUDDinz welches again!Thu Aug 30 1990 14:264
    	Bring back the cheerleaders and the games can last forever as
    far as I'm concerned!
    
    				/Don
5.642WMOIS::RIEU_DRead his Lips...Know New Taxes!!Thu Aug 30 1990 15:183
       That's only because you're in the Front row. Ya don't have to worry
    about gettin' drool on the guy in front you!
                                        Denny
5.643OOPS::MACGREGORThu Aug 30 1990 16:283
    Could someone point me to the NFL.com file.
    
    The Wizard
5.645MCIS1::DHAMELPseudo nouveau paraquasi noterThu Aug 30 1990 16:347
    
    
    --------------------->
    
    You're welcome.
    
    
5.646OOPS::MACGREGORThu Aug 30 1990 16:5111
    >You're welcome
    
    Thanks.
    
    Perhaps I should have been a little more informative.  I meant the
    com file someone make that will show the up coming games, not the
    notes file.
    
    Thanks X 2
    
    The Wizard
5.647NFL TRAINING CAMP ROUNDUPBSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsFri Aug 31 1990 16:5580
	Football fans will have to make their halftime refrigerator runs a
little quicker this season.
	The NFL announced Thursday that halftime will be cut from 15 to 12
minutes this season and a modification in the timing procedure following
kickoffs that was adopted earlier this year.
	The modification, which reverts to the 1989 rule, now states:
Following all kickoffs, the game clock will start upon the snap of the
ball by the offensive team.
	The league had been experimenting with starting the clock when the
ball was spotted following kickoffs except in the final two minutes of
the first half and the final five minutes of the second half.
	NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, with the endorsement of the
Competition Committee and unanimous approval of the 28 NFL clubs, has
instructed Director of Officiating Art McNally to advise all league game
referees that the change will be in effect for the final 14 preseasons
games this weekend, the entire 1990 regular season, and all post-season
contests.
	The reinstated kickoff rule is expected to return an average of
three-to-six plays that were lost thus far during the preseason and to
bring total game time closer to the three-hour average that was the aim
of the original rules change.
	Two other new timing changes will remain in effect. Except in the
final two minutes of the first half and the final five minutes of the
second half, the game clock will start when the ball is spotted
following all out-of bounds plays and declined penalties.
	Tagliabue also stated that the 12-minute halftime intermission
adopted in March, will remain in effect, but that the teams will be
allowed one minute to clear the playing field before the 12-minute
countdown starts. An additional 30 seconds will be alotted in Cleveland,
Houston, the Los Angeles Coliseum, Milwaukee, Minnesota and Phoenix
because of locker room locations.
	At Suwanee, Ga. the Atlanta Falcons signed two second-year players
who had just been cut by other NFL teams -- nose tackle Shawn Lee,
formerly of Tampa Bay, and safety George Streeter, formerly with the Los
Angeles Raiders.
	Lee, a 285-pounder who appeared in 30 games with the Bucs over the
previous two seasons, was drafted by Tampa Bay in 1988 out of North
Alabama. Streeter, who played his college ball for Notre Dame, spent
last season with the Chicago Bears and signed with the Raiders in
February as a ``Plan B'' free agent.
	At Cincinnati, Heisman Trophy winner Andre Ware makes his NFL debut
Friday night when the undefeated Detroit Lions wrap up preseason play
against the Cincinnati Bengals.
	``Andre is going to play at least a quarter and probably a half,''
Lions coach Wayne Fontes said.
	Ware won the Heisman Trophy last season for quarterbacking for the
University of Houston. He ended his holdout Monday by signing a four-
year, $6.6 million contract.
	``I was getting antsy,'' admitted Ware.
	Running back Barry Sanders, won the Heisman Trophy two years ago at
Oklahoma State, will join Ware in the backfield.
	At Indianapolis, Harvey Wilson, a rookie safety for the
Indianapolis Colts, was arrested early Thursday and charged with drunken
driving.
	Indiana State Police said Wilson's 1989 Ford was seen making an
improper turn on Michigan Road about 2 a.m.
	Trooper Joe Dixon said a Breathalyzer test showed Wilson had a
blood alcohol content of 0.18 percent, .08 over the state's legal limit
of 0.10 percent.
	Wilson was scheduled to appear Friday in Indianapolis Municipal
Court.
	At Berea, Ohio the Cleveland Browns announced four-time Pro Bowl
linebacker Clay Matthews has agreed to sign a contract and would report
to the team Friday.
	The Browns will play their final exhibition game of the season in
East Rutherford, N.J., Saturday night against the Giants, but Matthews
will not be in uniform.
	Terms were not disclosed, but it was reported earlier that Matthews
would likely receive a better contract than the two-year, $1.8 million
deal the Browns gave Plan B free agent defensive back Raymond Clayborn.
	A salary higher than Clayborn's would make Matthews the second
highest paid player on the team, behind quarterback Bernie Kosar.
	At Miami, starting tackle Jeff Dellenbach, who has been holding out
since before training camp began, signed a two-year contract with the
Miami Dolphins, director of player personnel Charley Winner announced.
	Winner said, however, he could not report any progress with the
other Dolphin holdouts -- wide receiver/tight end Jim Jensen, guard Roy
Foster, linebacker Rick Graf and running back Troy Stradford. He said he
would continue to negotiate with the four veterans.

5.648Schedule NeededBSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsTue Sep 04 1990 12:423
    Who plays who this weekend?  Anyone have a schedule for Week 1?
    
    Glenn
5.649FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Tue Sep 04 1990 12:5229
    Sunday:
    
    Denver at Raiders
    Houston at Atlanta
    Indianapolis at Buffalo
    Rams at Green Bay
    Miami at New England
    Minnesota at Kansas City
    Jets at Cincinnati
    Phoenix at Washington
    Pittsburgh at Cleveland
    San Diego at Dallas
    Seattle at Chicago
    Tampa Bay at Detroit
    
    Sunday Night:
    
    Philadelphia at Giants
    
    Monday:
    
    San Francisco at New Orleans
    
    After watching the Falcons the other night, they look like an Oilers
    clone.  Same offense, same defense, same cheap shots, same loud mouths
    and penalty flags flying all over the place.  Black uniforms are nice. 
    Ugly outfits for the coaches - all black from head-to-toe.
    
    John
5.650Is Karlis Just Stupid?BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsWed Sep 05 1990 12:569
    What is it with Rich Karlis?
    
    He is holding out in Minnesota, so the Vikes picked up Igw...., the
    placekicker put on waivers.  Is Karlis just stupid or what?  He blew it
    in Denver, where he was a city-loved celebrity, and now he's pulling
    the same stunt in Minnesota.  Unbelievable.  I hope he doesn't get
    picked up by anyone!
    
    Glenn
5.652Not AlwaysPFSVAX::JACOBSend a selfabused stomped antelope...Wed Sep 05 1990 13:397
    >> Didja ever notice the best kickers play half their games in
    >> a freekin' dome?
    
    An exception to the above is Gary Andersen of the Steelers!!!
    
    JaKe
    
5.653BSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsWed Sep 05 1990 14:045
    Forget it Steven....the guys a jerk.  In fact, I have proof....even Jim
    Turner on KOA's Sports Talk said that this move was "not very bright". 
    He refrained from using the word stupid...but not me...STUPID!  :-)
    
    Glenn
5.654OddsBSS::G_MCINTOSHVom Hochland German ShepherdsWed Sep 05 1990 14:3918
    Odds for this weeks game:
    
    	DETROIT 6.5 over TB
    	CHICAGO 6 over Seattle
    	LA Rams 3 over GB
    	WASH 11.5 over Phx
    	Minn 1.5 over KC
    	BUFF 8 over Colts
    	San Diego 3 over DALLAS	
    	Denver 1 over LA RAIDERS
    	ATLANTA 1.5 over Hou
    	CINCIN 9 over Jets
    	CLEVE 3 over Pitt
    	Miami 1 over NEW ENGLAND
    	NY GIANTS 4 over Phila
    	San Fran 4.5 over NEW ORLEANS
    
    Live from Charger Central....Glenn
5.655$5 mil for 3 yearsWMOIS::RIEU_DRead his Lips...Know New Taxes!!Thu Sep 06 1990 10:142
       Larry Taylor resigned with the Jints.
                                                  Denny
5.656COBRA::DINSMOREIt was the blister.. honestThu Sep 06 1990 10:354
    thats Lawrence  denny.. :)
    
    dinz
    
5.657UNXA::ADLERRich or poor, it's nice to have money.Thu Sep 06 1990 19:573
    ... L.T. re-signed (not resigned) -- he's still playing for the Giants.
    
    /Ed
5.658L.T. STOOD UPLUDWIG::GARRYBring on the A'sFri Sep 07 1990 00:239
    L.T. re-signed because after shopping himself around the league
    (which the Giants encouraged),LT had a lot of teams interested in
    his services but not 1 team was willing to pay him what he wanted,
    so he put his tail back between his legs and accepted the Giants
    original offer.   If only ther sports would wake up and start 
    telling these guys to take what I offer or screw.
    
    
    Tom
5.659CSC32::SALZERFri Sep 07 1990 01:5128
     
    
    This is going to be a strange season.  The rule changes, the playoff
    format changes and the regular season schedule changes on top of 
    all the usual mind blow stuff should really make it ineresting.
     
    By all estimates the 9'ers have a lock on the NFC. That's a hard point
    to argue.  Many in the NFC like to point to NFC dominance, but the 
    truth of the matter is, there's the 9'ers then there's the rest of
    the pack.  Can somebody step up and stop them? Maybe the Rams? 
    Maybe the Eagles?  Somehow I don't see either of those 2 doing it.
    Minnie won't have the where-with-all but maybe somebody out of 
    nowhere like GB. Majic came back. What will that mean? Let's 
    get outrageous and call Detroit the big surprise of the 1990 season.
    Howz' Detroit in the NFC championship game sound? Sounds good to me.
    
    Things seem far less clear over in the AFC.  Cleveland probably will
    fade this season. I suspect a resurgence from Cinci. They don't ever
    seem to stay down long.  Then the Steelers could continue on the roll
    they left off on.  Maybe thge Raiders but I doubt that untill at least
    next year or the next.  The entire AFC East looks like easy pickings
    except maybe and I do mean MAYBE Buffalo. Everybody in this conference
    is aware that Denver is the team to beat once again. 
    
    This season seems like it should be filled with surprises more than
    any in the recent past.  Let's see what happens. 
    
    BoB
5.660COBRA::DINSMOREIt was the blister.. honestFri Sep 07 1990 09:426
    bob,
    
    ya forgot the giants....
    
    dinz
    
5.661CSC32::J_HERNANDEZWaiting for my Kuwaiti VacationFri Sep 07 1990 12:412
    IS Thurman THomas signed?
    
5.662POGO::REEDOklaSt--#29 NCAA Wrestling ChampionshipFri Sep 07 1990 12:452
    yes, last week
    
5.663FRSBEE::BROOKSI can make it 'mo better ....Fri Sep 07 1990 13:0831
    AFC East Picks :
    
    1. Buffalo - Because nobody else is any better.
    2. Miami - Sammy Smith and the beginnings of an above-avg defense.
    3. Pats - By default, and the fack that their defense will be the
    division's best by Week 12.
    4. Jets - Adjustment period will be painful, but there are tools on
    offense.
    5. Colts - Gave up too much in the George deal, and Dickerson will be a
    Falcon by week 8.
    
    Central 
    
    1. Houston - Will start slow, adjusting to R&S and 4-3, but will finish
    strong over lasted 10 weeks.
    2. Bengals - If healthy, could contend for it all, but defense leaves
    something to be desired.
    3. Browns - Needs lots of help.
    4. Steelers - Will backslide, passing game will be weak.
    
    West 
    
    1. Raiders - Return to Oakland will bring 3 extra wins.
    2. Denver -  Should win the division, but will find a way not to.
    3. San Diego - If Tolliver is for real, they may make the playoffs.
    4. KC - Overrated - stop Okoye, and most of the job is done.
    5. Seattle - Knox waited too long to use run and shoot.
    
    Wildcards - Cincy, Denver, and Miami
    Rookie Of the Year - Blair Thomas, Jets
    MVP - Warren Moon, Houston or Chris Okoye of KC.
5.664GET A LIFE WILLYA!ROULET::WHITEHAIRDon't just sit there.......Do it now!Fri Sep 07 1990 13:1317
    
    Brooks, you make me laugh!!!  Browns need lost of help......I surely
    question that remark!  
    
    Why do you say that???  The Browns have a much improved running
    game this year and have probibly the biggest front line in the AFC.
    The defense is practically unchanged except for the new hands at
    the corners but, really, they were getting old and it showed last
    year...thats why they are gone.  
    
    We have a new field goal kicker this year that has much better
    accuracy than the old one.  We lost three games last year because
    of missed field goals.
    
    Look for the Browns to win it all!!!
    
    	WOOF!
5.665Paul's picksSTAR::YANKOWSKASGo Rochester Red Wings!Fri Sep 07 1990 13:3114
    AFC Division Winners: Buffalo, Cleveland, Denver
        Wildcards: Jets (surprise!), Houston, Raiders
    
        Championship Game: Denver over Houston
    
    NFC Division Winners: Philadelphia, Minnesota, San Francisco
        Wildcards: Washington, Giants, Rams
    
        Championship Game: SF over Rams
    
    Super Bowl: Deja vu all over again, SF over Denver.
    
    
    py
5.666My choicesOOPS::MACGREGORFri Sep 07 1990 16:0483
AFC                                      

    East
    ----			W	L	Comments
    Miami Dolphins              9	7	Two victories over the Bills
    Buffalo Bills		9	7	Lose 3 games by less than 3 pts
    New York Jets		8	8	Non-traditional strong finish
    New England Patriots	6      10	Beats playoff teams only 8^)
    Indianapolis Colts		6      10	Dickerson is worth 2 games

    Central
    -------
    Cleveland Browns	       10	6	Consistency will win games
    Cincinatti Bengals		9	7	43-7 one week then 10-51 next
    Pittsburgh Steelers		7	9	Just an average team
    Houston Oilers		7	9	Beaten up in division
    
    West
    ----
    Oakland Raiders	       10	6	7-1 at home, wherever that is
    Denver Broncos	       10	6	Can't beat an NFC team 8^)
    Kansas City Chiefs		8	8	Okoye versus the West
    San Diego Chargers		7	9	Not much to be said about them
    Seattle Seahawks		4      12	Fallen from grace

	Denver     --
                     |- Denver 31-20 --
	Buffalo    --                  |
                                       |- Denver 28-24  --
	Cincinatti --                  |                  |
		     |- Miami 23-20  --                   |
	Miami      --                                     |- Raiders 23-17
                                                          |
		        Raiders      --                   |
                                       |- Raiders 17-14 --
			Cleveland    --
	

NFC

    East
    ----
    New York Giants            11	5	All round good team
    Washington Redskins		9	7	3-5 divisional play
    Philadelphia Eagles		8	8	Buddy loses three games
    Dallas Cowboys		5      11	Two victories over Phoenix
    Phoenix Cardinals		5      11	Should have stayed in St. Louis
    
    Central
    -------                              
    Minnesota Vikings	       10	6	Strong defense and explosive O
    Detroit Lions	       10	6	Suprise team of the decade
    Green Bay Packers		9	7	2-5 start hurts them too much
    Chicago Bears		8	8	repeat of last year
    Tampa Bay Bucceaners	5      11	Opponents average 34 points
    
    West
    ----                                
    Los Angeles Rams	       11	5	Finally win the division
    San Fransisco 49ers	       10	6	Everyone hunts them down
    New Orlean Saints		7	9	Back to their losing ways
    Atlanta Falcons		6      10	Next year they will be strong


	San Fran   --
                     |- 49ers 31-20  --
	Detroit    --                  |
                                       |- Minn. 24-21   --
	Green Bay  --                  |                  |
		     |- Minn. 21-17  --                   |
	Minnesota  --                                     |- Rams 31-17
                                                          |
		        Los Angeles  --                   |
                                       |- Rams 24-21    --
			New York     --
                                                                       

	BOREDOME BOWL

	Raiders		34
	Rams	        10

The Wizard
5.667FDCV07::GARBARINOFri Sep 07 1990 18:5619
AFC:		East - Miami
		Central - Cincinnati
		West - Denver

		Wildcards - Houston, KC, Buffalo


NFC:		East - Giants
		Central - Minnesota
		West - Rams

		Wildcards - SF, Phil, Was



Super Bowl:	Cincinnati vs. Giants   (pick 'em)


Joe
5.668GOLF::KINGRSave the EARTH, we may need it later!!!Sun Sep 09 1990 01:1111
    I DEMAND THAT BROOKS .663 GET DELETED BY THE MODERATORS OF THIS FILE!	
    
    I just got done reading the Friday's Boston Globe and I read the same
    stuff that "brooks" wrote in here also to the letter was was printed in
    the Globe. Brooks yuo have lowered yourslef before but at least give a
    little credit on who really wrote these comments you made.
    
    REK
    
    BTW, incase anyone wants I will make a copy of Friday's Globe just to
    prove my point.!!
5.669on my ownHBAHBA::HAASsame as talking to youSun Sep 09 1990 13:0125
late, but not too late:

	AFC EAST	AFC CENTRAL	AFC WEST
	--------	-----------	--------
	Buffalo		Cincinnati	Denver
	Miami		Pittsburgh	San Diego
	NY Jets		Houston		LA Raiders
	Indianapolis	Cleveland	Kansas City
	New England			Seattle

	Wild Cards:	Pittsburgh, San Diego, LA Raiders
	MVP:		Boomer Easiason

	NFC EAST	NFC CENTRAL	NFC WEST
	--------	-----------	--------
	NY Giants	Minnesota	LA Rams
	Washington	Green Bay	San Francisco
	Philadelphia	Chicago		New Orleans
	Phoenix		Detroit		Atlanta
	Dallas		Tampa Bay

	Wild Cards:	Washington, Green Bay, San Francisco
	MVP:		Jim Everett

TTom
5.670oh yeah 3 cheers for Neil AndersonCNTROL::CHILDSBubby's just another Momma's boy\Mon Sep 10 1990 12:0015

And the golden foot in the mouth award for the weekend again goes to Bill
Walsh. Walsh stated that John L. Williams of the Seahawks set goals for
himself of 800 yards on the ground and catching 75 passes. Bill said I
think he should concentrate more on catching 50 passes and getting 1200
yards on the ground because then the Seattle offense would be more effective.

To which Enberg said to him but what about Craig catching 75 pass or so a
year did that hurt frisco's offensive effectiveness?

Fortunately Walsh just kept his mouth shut and chewed on his boneheaded
statement....

mike
5.671CAM::WAYNever drew first when I drew first bloodMon Sep 10 1990 12:1312
Who were the stiffs doing the Giants game?  I got to the point where
I was ready to load the gun and drive to Jersey and storm the booth.

Unless Reyna Thompson has changed the pronounciation of this first
name from Re-nay to Ray-nah, they constantly screwed that up.  The
few broadcasters I know would have checked something like that
in their pre-game research...

Poor.  I was not impressed with the TNT coverage at all.....


'Saw
5.672BSS::JCOTANCHBring Back Gerry!Mon Sep 10 1990 12:184
    The play-by-play man was Skip Caray.  Don't know the color man's name,
    but he's a John Dockery sound-alike.
    
    Joe
5.673AXIS::ROBICHAUDNostra/DONusMon Sep 10 1990 12:204
    	How 'bout that Glanville?  Who was the "jerk" coach who ran
    up the score on SMU anyhow?  Hey DocM, do you know?  8^)
    
    				/Don
5.674He also QB the Rams for a timeCNTROL::CHILDSBubby's just another Momma's boy\Mon Sep 10 1990 12:405
Pat Hayden of Oxford U. and USC was the color man for TNT. I agree that he
was bad. Carey wasn't bad except for the dam corny jokes.

mike
5.675Living Color/Al Bundy betterHBAHBA::HAASsame as talking to youMon Sep 10 1990 12:419
Pat Haden did the "color" with Skip Caray.

I watched but didn't listen. Having a multiple TV facility installed in
my den, I watched and listened to Living Color and a 1 hour Al Bundy.
This is a setup I adopted when announcers started trying to become bigger
than the event. It is especially helpful for the ESPN games and filtering
Joe Theismann.

TTom
5.676FSHQA2::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Mon Sep 10 1990 12:428
    Skip Caray and Pat Haden are the TBS announcers.  In their first
    telecast, Skip had trouble spotting the ball.  It was between 2 yard
    lines and he couldn't figure out if it was the 21, the 22 or the 21 1/2
    and then wondered if anyone would write in and complain.  I didn't
    complain but I did quote him chapter and verse for the statisticians
    manual.  Wonder if he'll ever answer.
    
    John
5.677Give him Dad's glassesLAGUNA::MAY_BRMon Sep 10 1990 13:195
    
    I think it was Caray who said the ball was on the 25 when it was
    actually on the 15.  He made that same call on 3 consecutive plays.
    
    Bruce
5.678DECWET::METZGERHead Northwest young man....Mon Sep 10 1990 14:3116
Joe Walsh has stuck his foot in his mouth more than once. Last year he went on 
record by saying that the RUn and Shoot offense would never make it in the
NFl because you couldn't do enough things out of it. He said that you couldn't
run effectively out of it and yo uneed the run to set up the pass.

Lo and Behold but Barry Sanders leads the NFl in rushing that year. Now many
teams are switching either partially or fully to the run and shoot because
you can do so many things out of it. Walsh, however, continues to insist that
the run and shoot will never work and consistantly degrades it on the air.

The man could coach football but he is one stubborn, arrogant dude in the
announcing booth.


Metz
5.679I watched Homey the ClownSHALOT::MEDVIDShe's not a surfboard anymoreMon Sep 10 1990 16:214
    Is it just me or does Skip Carey sound like Fozzie Bear calling a
    football game?
    
    	--dan'l
5.680Here's Mr. Establishment talkin' 'bout what I did to Homey....REFINE::ASHEBases r loaded &amp; Casey's at bat..Tue Sep 11 1990 18:245
    Is it just me or does Pat Haden sound like Barney Rubble analying a 
    a football game?
    
    -Walt
    
5.681I hope so...CNTROL::CHILDStook all my money, wrecked my new carWed Sep 12 1990 11:046
 Walt, what happened to Homey? I missed it with TNT now having football on
 sunday nites. Is Homey and the gang moving to a different night this fall?

mike    

5.683FRSBEE::BROOKSI can make it 'mo better ....Wed Sep 12 1990 12:484
    re .668
    
    You can't be serious .... if you are incabale of original thought fine
    - but don't think that everyone else is the same way ...
5.684 :-) SASE::SZABOWed Sep 12 1990 13:025
    
    incabale- the process of being rendered useless due to hallugeons(tm).
    
    hope this helps.
    
5.685LAGUNA::MAY_BRWed Sep 12 1990 13:188
    re .684
    
    Wrong Hawk, and you of all people should have gotten in correct.
    
    incabale- n. Illegal in many states, it is the beer served
    while riding in a taxi cab.
    
    HTH 
5.686REFINE::ASHEBases r loaded &amp; Casey's at bat..Wed Sep 12 1990 14:0914
    Mike, it was a repeat, the last one of the season.  He had his own
    little carnival, dunking booth that wouldn't dunk, balloon dogs
    and a story of his dog "Palomine". (that was my favorite part).
    The Mr. Establishment ventriloquist dummy, it was pretty good, I
    hadn't seen that one before.
    
    They moved it to 8:00 Sunday, opposite America's home videos and
    (sigh) football on TNT... but with some of the games on, I don't
    mind missing the first 10 minutes of a game.
    
    I think the Emmy's are on this Sunday and the new ones start the
    week after...
    
    -Walt
5.687too bad...thanks Walt. agree I'll miss a few beginingsCNTROL::CHILDSLord she had a way to fool meWed Sep 12 1990 14:541
5.688Late PredictionsCSC32::GL_JOHNSONBo knows your wifeWed Sep 12 1990 17:1925
    AFC East                              	NFC East
    ---------                                   --------
    Buffalo                                     NY GIANTS
    Miami                                       Washington
    Indianapolis                                Philadelphia
    NY Jets                                     Dallas
    New England                                 Phoenix
    
    AFC Central                                 NFC Central
    -----------                                 -----------
    Cincinatti                                  Minnesota
    Houston               			Green Bay
    Pittsburgh					Detroit
    Cleveland					Chicago
    						Tampa Bay
    
    AFC West					NFC West
    -------- 					--------
    RAIDERS 					San Francisco
    Denver					LA Rams
    Kansas City					New Orleans
    San Diego					Atlanta
    Seattle
    
    						 glen j
5.689is cincinatti a new expansion team or new type of pasta?ROCK::GRONOWSKIthe dream is always the same...Wed Sep 12 1990 18:091
    
5.690AXIS::ROBICHAUDBatman is queerWed Sep 12 1990 18:183
    	Hey Glen, you cain't bet after the bell rings.  8^)
    
    				/Don
5.691EARRTH::BROOKSI can make it 'mo better ....Wed Sep 12 1990 19:1835
    My NFC Picks :
    
    East
    
    1. Washington - Skins have best offense in division, defense does
    better than in lasted two years.
    2T. Philly - Philly defense rises to new level, Cunningham threatens to
    run for 1,000 yards because of sorry passing game. Jackson misses 5-7
    games due to holdout.
    2T Giants - Hampton is RoY, Megget gives Giants big-play dimension that
    allows it to pull out several games.
    3. Dallas - This team is 2-3 years away from regaining former status.
    4. Cards - Decent defense, offense is pathetic.
    
    Central
    
    1. Vikings - Vikes finally get the ball downfield to AC and Co.
    However, Walker makes a bigger impact as a WR than a RB until week 9.
    2. Bears - Still strong enough to hold off challenges from other
    ballclubs in the Central - for now.
    3. Green Bay - They won 4 games in the last quarter. Few teams can be
    that lucky two years in a row. They may be a better team than last
    year, but have a worse record.
    4. Lions - Not ready to take off just yet. But Ware/Peete will put
    points on the board, and could finish third.
    5. Tampa Bay - Somebody has to take the cellar right ? Look for Reggie
    Cobb to impress a lot of people - that is, if Gary Anderson lets him in
    the lineup. I still think Vinny T has a lot to prove.
    
    West 
    
    1. Niners - Three-peat. Nuff said.
    2. Rams - Not enough head-knockers up front to win the NFC.
    3T. Saints - Mora had better find some good offense or else ....
    3T. Atlanta - In another division, they'd be playoff contenders.
5.692Hey Doc, you and Glen ever go to the track? 8^)AXIS::ROBICHAUDDockers...Pants for |CENSORED|sThu Sep 13 1990 10:271
    
5.693stupid question, intelligent answerCARP::SHAUGHNESSYtalk dirty to meThu Sep 13 1990 15:4814
    >is cincinatti a new expansion team or new type of pasta?
    
    Neither.  Cincinatti is Ohio's team, probly commanding even more
    loyalty there now than even the Buckeyes.  The Bengals are the 
    team, the players, the coach, the owner, the franchise, who belittled
    the Brownies last year and then stomped them to boot.  Hale, the
    Cat fans even outclassed the sorry gnaw boners.  No, Groaner, let's
    face up to facks her shall we: Paul Brown *is* the NFL, and he ain't
    in Cleveland anymore.  He took his class act south and he now has 
    one a the two best squads in football.  Meanwhile, the Brownies have
    a chicken-legged QB with a perm, a sidearm delivery, and a_abject 
    inability to get past Big John and the Broncos come Judgement Day.
    
    MrT
5.694hail the defending afc central cellar dwellers - hasbengals!ROCK::GRONOWSKIthe dream is always the same...Thu Sep 13 1990 16:447
    
    
    Are we talking about the chicken-legged QB who has brought 4 AFC
    Central titles to Cleveland in his 5 years in the league...  Alot
    more than Boomer's done for Cincinnati (other than Boomer's complaining
    and whining -> not winning)...
    
5.695Charlotte expansionHBAHBA::HAASsame as talking to youThu Sep 13 1990 17:1010
Speaking of expansion...

Last night, on the HBO NFL show, one of the guest - a media type from
Dallas, I think - was asked about expansion and listed Charlotte as being
by far the front runner for the franchise to be awarded to a "new" city -
one that hasn't had a team yet. Supposedly 2 franchises will be awarded:
one to a new city and one to a city that has already had a team but the
team moved. This would include St Louis, Baltimore and, now, Oakland.

TTom
5.696ZYGOTE::JACOBBald Head=solar panel 4 sex machineThu Sep 13 1990 20:276
    RE-.2
    Although Boomer has shown that he can get his team into the BIG GAME
    given the chance.  Unlike Bernice's always a bridesmaid never a bride.
    
    JaKe
    
5.697Browns following strong everywhereSNDBOX::HAUSRATHToo many projects, not enough timeFri Sep 14 1990 11:4813
    
    T, you're DEAD wrong about Cincinnati being Ohio's team.  This summer
    when I was visiting my sister in Dayton the local paper ran the results
    of an Ohio poll (taken by U. Cincinnati) on the popularity of the 
    Browns vs. the Bengals..  Turns out the Browns have a significant
    following throughout all of ohio, while the Bengals have little to none
    north of Columbus.  I forget the exact numbers but all told the 
    Browns fans outnumber the Bengal fans by something of the order of 2-1.
    
    Well then, maybe the Bengals are Kentucky's team..  but really, who cares
    about Kentucky! 
    
    /Jeff   
5.698CARP::SHAUGHNESSYHalasLombardiBrownWalshGlanvilleFri Sep 14 1990 13:1720
    Groaner, that knock-kneed chicken-legged QB with the perm and the 
    abject inability to overcome Big John on Judgement Day is hardly "le
    raison" the Brownies was able to lose all those big games, I'd say
    it was the D, no?  Isn't it true that the barely capable Bernie is 
    in fack a boat anchor around the ankles of what was once a fine squad
    (they're fading now), and that if they'd had a big-time QB instead of
    a_overrated homie they woulda made it to the Bowl, which ain't happened
    since kids hung out at drive-in restaurants and the numbers 283 and
    327 and 318 held special meaning.  
    
    We're in the fuel injection age now, Groaner, as in post-modern
    gridiron with new ideas and advanced techniques these are the '90s and
    the Brownies are looking more and more like a museum exhibit,
    especially with that guy who has the Johnny Unitas body but not ability.
       
    As for the Ohio Poll, sure they used to be the only squad in the
    Buckeye state and therefore have widespread support, but I'm sure if 
    you sorted out the septagenarians and older the Cats'd mop up big-time. 
                                                                 
    MrT                                                                    
5.699Bengals minus Wyche = division championshipSNDBOX::HAUSRATHToo many projects, not enough timeFri Sep 14 1990 15:3718
    
    re: .698  T, you're so full of it, it's pathetic.  
    
    I consider the current Brown's D to be far superior to any seen in the
    '80s .. with the exception of the corners.  As you've stated it was the 
    Defense which cost the Browns those 3 AFC conference title games, not
    the offense.. so what's the knock on Bernie?    
    
    As far as the current offense goes, they're loaded at the skill
    positions.. if the O-line comes around look out.  
    
    It's not that the Browns have lost anything since the mid-eighties, it's
    that the rest of the division has gained ground.  Cinci, Houston and 
    Pittsburgh have all made immense strides since '85.  With a tougher, 
    balanced, division there will be no free-bies this year (unlike every 
    other division in football).  I suspect 9-7 or even 10-6 will win it.
                         
    /Jeff
5.700inquiring FFLers want to knowSTAR::YANKOWSKASLittle roller up along first...Mon Sep 17 1990 11:074
    Anyone out there with a late paper have a Pitt-Hou scoring summary?
    
                          
    py
5.701CSC32::J_HERNANDEZWow, Good nyborg man.Mon Sep 17 1990 12:4220
    1st quarter 
    
    Pit - d. Johnson 26 yd int return (anderson kick)
    
    2nd quarter
    
    Hou - White 1 yd run (Zendejas Kick)
    PIt - FG Anderson 31
    
    3rd quarter
    
    Hou - Safety, Brister tackled in end zone
    
    4th quarter
    
    Pit - FG Anderson 27
    Pit - Woodson 52 punt return
    
    HTH
    
5.702QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Mon Sep 17 1990 12:4926
5.703unfortunately for me, Moon didn't score... :-(STAR::YANKOWSKASLittle roller up along first...Mon Sep 17 1990 13:234
    Thanks!
    
    
    py
5.705House of ConfusionSHALOT::MEDVIDfrom the bottom of my pencil caseMon Sep 17 1990 15:0814
    And if I didn't know any better, I'd say the refs were calling a pretty
    lopsided game against Pittsburgh.
    
    So let's see, someone from Houston pays off the refs and someone from
    Pittsburgh pays off the Houston receivers.
    
    That person from Pittsburgh should have used his money on buying a copy
    of the Time/Life Big Book "How to Be an Offensive Coordinator" for Joe
    Walton.
    
    Pittsburgh is in big trouble.  The D won't win it for them every week. 
    I'm just glad Houston is in their division.
    
    	--dan'l
5.706yeah, but...HBAHBA::HAASsame as talking to youMon Sep 17 1990 15:1210
I'll not refute your thesis about the refs, Dan'l. In fact, I'll go so
far as they had they may have had incentive$ to see how many flags they
could throw.

However, I disagree with the Woodson penalty. All he had to do was let
go, back off or almost anything else. He could have even tackled the guy
but to throw the guy down 10 seconds after the whistle is blown is at
best Stupid.

TTom
5.707Bad call: no, Consistent: NOSHALOT::MEDVIDfrom the bottom of my pencil caseMon Sep 17 1990 15:4513
    True.  I am looking at things through black and gold colored glasses.
    
    I guess my real feeling on that call is that I've seen a lot worse
    (especially from the Glanville Oilers) that never get called.  He
    didn't throw the guy THAT hard, but you are right, it did deserve a
    penalty by the book.  Trouble is, seems like different officials go by
    different books.  What gets allowed and what doesn't?
    
    Did you see Noll and Green on the sideline?  I don't think I've seen
    Noll that angry in 10 years.  And I've never seen a black man turn red
    with anger like Mean Joe did after that call.
    
    	--dan'l
5.708everybody's got a Holy GrailHBAHBA::HAASsame as talking to youMon Sep 17 1990 16:175
Noll looked like he was quoting Monty Python to the Ref:

	"I unplug my nose in your direction"

TTom
5.709 2-0's & 0-2's ELMAGO::CGRIEGORead Matthew chp. 24 Wed Sep 19 1990 15:2318
    So far, each division has one team that's undefeated.
    
    AFC East:     Dolphins   (vs. Giants)
    AFC Central:  Bengals    (vs. Patriots)
    AFC West:     Raiders    (vs. Steelers)                    
    
    NFC East:     Giants     (vs. Dolphins)
    NFC Central:  Bears      (vs. Vikings)
    NfC West:     49'ers     (vs. Falcons)
    
     I predict that after this weekend they will all still be undefeated 
    with the exception of the Giants (this was a tough choice, my heart
    says Miami, my head says Giants, I gotta follow my heart.). On the
    flip side, there are six teams without a win: Colts, Eagles, Chargers,
    Seahawks, Saints, and Oilers. And of them I think only Houston
    and New Orleans will win this weekend.    
                                          
    Carlos
5.710GENRAL::WADEBye bye Ms. American PieFri Sep 21 1990 15:535
    
    	ESPN reported that somebody had been banned for life because
    	of drugs.  I didn't catch the name.  Who was it?
    
    	Claybone
5.711Name escapesAIMHI::DONNELLYDare to be diffidentFri Sep 21 1990 15:581
    a DB for the Detroit Lions.
5.712Terry Taylor. 3 times on "substance".HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERNuke the New Kids!!Fri Sep 21 1990 16:061
    
5.713What a country!WMOIS::RIEU_DRead his Lips...Know New Taxes!!Fri Sep 21 1990 16:293
    'Banned for life', but eligible for re-enstatement nexted year. 
                                             Denny
    
5.714But then, maybe I'm Biase'dMILPND::VLASAKFlatliners for Mass...YES on #3Fri Sep 21 1990 16:503
    
    For a drug addict one year can be a lifetime!
    
5.715helpLUDWIG::GARRYBring on the A'sSat Sep 22 1990 02:186
    Speaking of the 3 time losers,when is Dexter Manley eligible ???
    
    Do the skins still own his rights???
    
    
    Tom
5.716EARRTH::BROOKSI can make it 'mo better ....Mon Sep 24 1990 11:252
    Yes, the SKins do, and Manley would be eligible by Week 10 or so of the
    season. I doubt that Wash. would take him back this season - if ever.
5.717ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYBush's lips: 'Know new taxes!!'Mon Sep 24 1990 12:4047
    Here's why the Vikings are overrated:
    
    Weak @QB		QBs are important.  Wade Wilson, as a QB, is
    			unimportant.  He's inconsistent, he gets happy
    			feet in the pocket.  He's not a smart QB, for
    			example, taking sacks instead of throwing the
    			ball out of bounds.  Doesn't audible well either.
    
    Defensive line	Word's out that there's more interest in piling
    			up sack dastisticks than winning football games.
    			Too many offsides, positively anemic versus the
    			run.  Yesterday, the Bares ran 19 straight runs,
    			and went over a quarter without even having to pass.
    			
    Running backs	Herschel Walker is the single most overrated player
    			in the NFL.  Won't break tackles, cain't cut, takes
    			chiken steps and is slow to the hole, keeps his haid
                        down so has poor field of vision, actively cooperates
                        in being tackled, cain't block.  FBs not known for 
     			blocking prowess.
    
    Offensive line	Pass blockers whose run blocking against good DLs is
                        bad enough to make incessant traps, screens, and draws
     			necessary to get RBs sprung.
    
    Play Calling	Few teams are more obvious than Minnesota.  They seem
    	                to be fixated on saying, "everybody thinks we need to
                        pass given the situation, so let's fool 'em and run!"
                        Trouble is, they've been doing this so long now that
                        everybody's hip to it and they stuff the play (remember,
                        their All-Pro OLs get little if any push on run plays)
                        and then they're stuck with obvious passing situations
                        which in the end means this team seldom gets over in
                        clutch situation.
    
    			Lost KC game by running 3rd best halfback to right
    			side with two All-Pros on left side.
    
    Punter		Punting has been a nightmare for the Vikings since
    			they stupidly let Greg Coleman (Vince Coleman's cousin)
			go.		
    	
    Linebacking		Good overall, but saddled with inordinate amount of
    			responsiblity for stopping run which hurts them on
    			pass defense.  Scott Studwell should retire. Today.
    
    
5.718Can't kick the ball when both hands are around the throatEARRTH::BROOKSTwo snaps, a twist, and a kiss!Mon Sep 24 1990 13:322
    Yeah, the winniong score was set up when Harry Newsome dropped the snap
    for a punt with :30 remaining ....
5.719ITASCA::SHAUGHNESSYBush's lips: 'Know new taxes!!'Mon Sep 24 1990 13:379
    Thankfully, Wade Wilson hurt his thumb on his throwing hand on the
    last play of the game and is out for at least a month.
    
    Wade is D-U-M-B !!
    
    The guy is slow.  He's made his millions, now it's time for him to
    step aside and let someone with a wider brain pan take the controls.
    
    MrT 
5.720Bring on Gannon!!!!!SALEM::DODANo scalping at Sinead O'Connor concertsMon Sep 24 1990 15:270
5.721FSHQA2::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Tue Sep 25 1990 12:4711
    Re: Mr T
    
    I agre with your assesment of the Vikings except for the RBs. Although
    Walker has not lived up to expectations look at his OL.  Without decent 
    blocking how many RBs can continue to break tackles ?  I still feel
    that Walker is a potent weapon that needs to be used to his full
    potential (20+ carries and 4-5 passes a game).  He was great in Dallas
    in running screen plays, are they doing that in Minn. aswell ?
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
    
5.722SALEM::DODANo scalping at Sinead O'Connor concertsTue Sep 25 1990 12:514
What's with John L. Williams? He didn't play at all last Sunday.

thanks
daryll
5.723CSC32::SALZERTue Sep 25 1990 15:1811
    J L Williams did in fact play last sunday but was ineffective
    rushing. He did catch about 6 passes for somewhere around 70 yards.
    Fenner picked up the slack in the rushing department for SEattle
    and until last night held week 3's most yards rushing leader.
    
    Wade Wilson underwent arthroscopic surgery today to repair 
    torn ligaments in his hand. Down time will be based on the
    outcome of surgery. 
    
    BoB
    
5.724When will they learn?33509::LAZARUSDavid Lazarus @KYO,323-4353Tue Sep 25 1990 15:205
    re: vikings
    
    The Vikings and Colts are two of a kind. When are these genius GM's
    going to learn that you don't mortgage your future for a once-great
    running back who has taken too many hits?
5.725AUSTIN::MACNEALBo don't know rugby!Tue Sep 25 1990 15:2517
    On substance abuse:  Clarance Kay is a 3 time offender, yet Tagliabue
    says he can still play.  Is the NFL saying no to drugs and yes to
    alchohol?
    
    On the run and shoot:  Interesting article in this weekend's paper.  It
    tended to agree with Walsh's assesment that it is not a pro-offense. 
    It is very good at exploiting weak defenses, but falls apart against a
    real D.  Even the Cougars with Andre Ware could not beat A&M or
    Arkansas.  The Detroit Lions, despite some impressive wins, was ranked
    24th or 25th in total offense last year.  They also were among the
    league leaders in turnovers and sacks allowed (they also couldn't get a
    full season out of their QB's).  The Houston Oilers, despite a 14th (or
    so) ranked offense last year, Warren Moon, and 3/4 premier running
    backs, have hired Jack Pardee and his run and shoot.  It looks like the
    Oilers were trying to fix something that wasn't broken.  With the run
    and shoot, the Oilers are turning over the ball more often and Moon is
    taking alot of punishment.
5.726AXIS::ROBICHAUDDockers... Pants for |CENSORED|sTue Sep 25 1990 15:297
    	RE: Substance Abuse.
    
    	Kay isn't outspoken like Manley so he gets a break.  If the
    NFL strictly applied the rules old LT would've been banned for life.
    
    
    				/Don
5.727LAGUNA::MAY_BRTue Sep 25 1990 15:434
    
    LT has only been caught twice.  
    
    
5.728CSC32::SALZERTue Sep 25 1990 15:548
    This Kay thing is really-really-really-really REALLY starting to 
    get real-real-real REAL old. The guy had a drug problem and 
    proved positive twice.  Keep in mind both offenses occured prior
    to the NFL having any policy on drugs or alcohol. That was 3
    or 4 years ago. Then he gets stoped for driving while IMPAIRED.
    Not drunk. Not under the influence. IMPAIRED.  You make the call.
    
    BoB   
5.729AXIS::ROBICHAUDDockers... Pants for |CENSORED|sTue Sep 25 1990 16:136
    	He got caught the third time Bruce when he was found off the
    New Jersey Turnpike.  The blood alcohol level is what got him off. 
    Supposedly just two drinks made him sick and that's why he pulled his car
    over.  It always struck me as suspicious.
    
    				/Don
5.730COBRA::DINSMORERodney Hampton...ROYTue Sep 25 1990 16:155
    well ya know  how those joisey  cops can be  /don
    
    
    dinz
    
5.731Alcohol in the system was it for White...SALEM::DODANo scalping at Sinead O'Connor concertsTue Sep 25 1990 16:225
Charles White was suspended because he tested positive for 
alcohol in his blood. He was banned for life. He wasn't even 
IMPAIRED. What's the difference?

daryll
5.732Kay is innocentRSST6::RIGGENBurley from bikingTue Sep 25 1990 17:0712
>>Charles White was suspended because he tested positive for 
>>alcohol in his blood. He was banned for life. He wasn't even 
>>IMPAIRED. What's the difference?


The difference is Charles White was either putting on his pads or taking 
them off when he was asked to supply a little sample to be tested. 

Clarence Kay's 2nd offense was botched "admitted by Pete Rozelle" 
The 3rd offense is very similar to LT's 3rd offense. 

Jeff
5.733CSC32::SALZERTue Sep 25 1990 17:566
    I see what the intent is here But what else did White do? White
    gets busted once for alcohol and is out and Kay isn't. Let's
    hear the rest of the story on White then compare to Kay's case to it.
    Nobody will argue  Dexter or LT's situation.
     
    BoB
5.734Kay was cleaner than the NFL....COMET::EDWARDSBroncos...one week at a timeTue Sep 25 1990 18:1013
Kay's first and second offense were PRIOR to the 3 strikes and you are
out rule.   Also, the second test was "botched" pretty badly.  Apparently
the NFL lab found it to be negative, held on to it for 2 weeks, then sent it
out to a different lab where it "turned up positive".  That is hardly the
kind of conclusive evidence required to take someone's job away.....

Also, Kay's "rehab program" apparently didn't prohibit alcohol, so he
wasn't in violation of his rehab ala Charles White....

	ed^2


5.736smile awayCNTROL::CHILDSLord she had a way to fool meTue Sep 25 1990 18:4314
Not much of a rehab program if it allows a person to drink. Bottom line
is a substance abuser will abuse any sunstance he puts in his body over
a given time...

and like Steven said he's a donk, that's all you need to know. Preferential
treatment by the refs, all of their tough opponents schedule at their home,
etc...

mike    
    
    
    

5.737FRSBEE::BROOKSTwo snaps, a twist, and a kiss!Tue Sep 25 1990 20:0344
    re .725
    
    Mac, I agree that the Oilers fixed something that wasn't broken. I have
    yet to figure that out - they had the potential for the NFL's most
    explosive balanced offense - great OL, very deep at RB (and the RB's
    on the Oilers are versitle as well) and WR - what more do you want ?
    
    I felt that they just needed to open up their offense more from last
    year - Glanville wanted to run the ball until the Oilers got behind.
    
    Now, I don't know what the hell is going on.
    
    As for the R&S in general, I say give it a chance. The Lions may not
    have ranked high in O last year, but it was better than they would have
    in a conventional offense. The Lions were so bad on O in 88 that the
    Vikes held them to THREE first downs on national TV. 
    
    Detroit could still use a couple of top-notch WR's - people seem to
    forget that most of their receiving corps are NFL rejects, and that
    Richard Johnson is probably the best of the group.
    
    As for the Coogs, I'd have to say (based on what you told me) that
    article was biased (did Walsh write it ?). The Aggies used a 1-5-5
    gimmick defense to contain the Run and Shoot. And frankly, that's only
    going to work once. The Aggies had 2-3 weeks off to prepare, and more
    importantly, had the personell who had the talent to make such a scheme
    work.
    
    The very fact that they resorted to such a unoradox D should be proof
    enough that the Run and Shoot is legit.
    
    [Aside : I give A&M full credit for comming up with that scheme.
    It was incredible.]
    
    As for the Arkansas game, the score was 45-39.
    
    Hardly what I'd call a strike against the R&S.
    
    While I have problems with the R&S, the article sounds to me like a
    typical NFL 'traditionalist' line of bull.
    
    Gotta run ...
    
    Doc
5.738I still think it is a viable offense in the NFL..DECWET::METZGERHead Northwest young man....Tue Sep 25 1990 21:1432
I think that it takes the R&S clubs a little longer into the season to get the 
offense into full swing. Anybody that saw detroit at the end of last season 
saw an offense that was in gear.

I think that the key to the R&S is finding the perfect QB. You need a QB that
can scan the entire field, make a decision and let fly in about 3-4 seconds.

from what I saw in the last Houston game Moon was taking too long to find
his receivers. He was mentally expecting the 5-6 seconds he had in the pocket
last year and the time just isn't there under the R&S. He'll adjust and start
finding his receivers quicker as the season gets further along.

Pinkett will finally find his niche in the R&S and be the starting back in 
a few more weeks. He catches passes better than white and I think he's a 
little quicker finding the holes than White also.

Neat concept of a 1-5-5 defense..I'd like to see that game on tape if at all
possible....

IMHO there are going to be 3 types of offense in the NFL in the 90's. The big
pig offensive line of the Bears, Giants and Skins who will try and run the
ball down your throats...stop the run and you win the game...

The controlled short drop passing game of the 49ers and Rams...If you can stuff
the receivers at the line than you can control the game...(good luck stopping
Rice or Taylor or Ellard)

The R&S...If you can get to the QB before he can get the ball off consistantly
then the turnovers start and the defense capitalizes.

Metz

5.739JUPITR::PARTEECharlie -- Lemieux est le mieuxWed Sep 26 1990 00:519
    
    
    4th kind of offense:  the powerful Steeler offense.
    
    It's called "the defense".
    
    
    Charlie
    
5.740Pheonix infoCSC32::S_CRONKFri Sep 28 1990 13:579
    This is from out of the blue....
    
    Does anyone down in Pheonix, if that is even possible, know who is
    starting at running back against Washington this weekend, don't
    ask why, and Jesse's reply to this, and I'm SURE he will, does not
    count for s^&*.  Fantasy Football roster releys heavy on this info..
    
    
    Desperate, Scott
5.741COBRA::DINSMORESee ya in Tampa in January!Fri Sep 28 1990 14:295
    I would  say Anothy Thompson   the rookie
    
    
    dinz
    
5.742JohnsonSHALOT::HUNTWyld Stallyns RulesFri Sep 28 1990 14:435
    I'd say that their other rookie running back, Johnny Johnson, would get
    the call.  He's second in the NFC in rushing yards right now and looks
    very good.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.743SALEM::DODANo scalping at Sinead O'Connor concertsFri Sep 28 1990 14:513
Johnson seemd to be getting the ball in Phoenix.

daryll
5.744**HELP**CSC32::S_CRONKFri Sep 28 1990 15:155
    What I was looking for was info on Flaggler, seeing all the rest of my
    no-goods are off this weekend due to this new schedule, also due to 
    other players in the FFL league stabbing me in the back with trades.
    
    -Scott
5.745Open Dates....is that like open marriages?ELMAGO::CGRIEGOIn God we trustTue Oct 02 1990 11:389
       Should be interesting to note how the Falcons, Rams, Saints
    and the 'Niners do this weekend, after their open date vacation.
    I think the the teams that have open dates this early in the season
    will be negatively affected, because the season just got going and
    all of a sudden, bam, you get a week off and you lose your momentum.
    While on the other hand, teams with open dates late in the season
    will benefit from a much needed rest. JMHO
    
    Carlos
5.746The Falcons and the Saints have momentum?SHALOT::MEDVIDTue Oct 02 1990 11:482
    
    	
5.747ELMAGO::CGRIEGOIn God we trustTue Oct 02 1990 12:141
    It might be negative, but to be sure, it is momentum.  ;-)
5.748Rozier Claimed by JerryHBAHBA::HAASsame as talking to youThu Oct 04 1990 10:134
Surprising no one, Atlanta has picked up Mike Rozier who was let go by
Houston earlier in the week. 

TTom
5.749CSC32::J_HERNANDEZOh God! I can't wake up!!Thu Oct 04 1990 12:132
    The week off will actually help the Rams cuz they got some guys who was
    hurt.
5.750BSS::MENDEZThu Oct 04 1990 18:487
    Jesse
    
    The Rams suck.  They need more than 1 week off to solve that problem
    hahahahahahaha
    
    Frank 9er Mendez
    
5.751on the sidelinesHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Oct 05 1990 10:316
Eric Dickerson's suspension has been upheld which means that he will be
activated Oct 17, one day after the trading deadline and would not be
eligible to play until the 21st against Denver. Along the way he'll lose
more than $600K.

TTom
5.752CSC32::J_HERNANDEZDahlingItsBettaDownWhereItsWettaFri Oct 05 1990 11:365
    Yo Mendez, your reply clearly shows that you are totally scared that
    the 'Niners will lose the division to the Rams. 
    
    
    
5.753A Sad DayFSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Thu Oct 11 1990 10:0414
    Dick Jorgensen, an NFL Official for 23 years and referee in the 1990
    Super Bowl, died yesterday of cancer in Champaign, Ill at the age of
    56.  
    
    I think it's kind of sad and ironic that he reached the peak of his
    profession in his final game and had only 9 months left to live after
    it.  Somehow, the poem "To an Athlete Dying Young" seems appropriate
    here.
    
    Through working closely with the members of the NFL Officiating Staff
    at Patriots game, I've developed a great deal of interest in the area
    and a member of the NFL Family is gone too.
    
    John
5.754SALMON::SHAUGHNESSYFactInAnalyzingTheoriesFairlyFri Oct 12 1990 15:1518
    RIP to Mr. Jorgensen.
    
    On a brighter note, Mike Linn has quit the Minnesota Vikings, leaving
    at a time, according to outspoken guard Dave Huffman, "that looks a 
    lot like a rat jumping off a sinking ship."  The sinking ship of course
    being the 1-4 Vikings, who have pretty much admitted to themselves that
    the Herschel Walker trade was perhaps the worst in league history.
    
    Jerry Burns finally worked up the courage to criticize Herschel.  No,
    not for going to the bobsled tryouts when he should be trying to improve
    his running, but for his listless blocking.
    
    But Linn's departure opens up the possibility that the new GM cain just
    admit that Herschel's not a first team player and let a better runner
    take his place as starter, thus giving them a better shot at winning 
    enough games to make the expanded playoffs.
    
    MrT
5.755Rankings (unofficial)PFSVAX::JACOBpms Band plays3WksBlues&amp;1WkRagtimeTue Oct 16 1990 00:2543
These are the Current Offensive and Defensive standings for the AFC.

Teams that have only played 5 games are denoted with an *.

Rankings in each category are in parenthesis.

OFFENSE            Rushing        Passing       Total        Yds per game
1.Houston           440 (11)      1850 (1)      2290           381.67
2.Kansas City       810 (1)       1286 (3)      2096           349.33
3.Cincinnati        584 (8)       1411 (2)      1995           332.5
4.Denver            744 (4)       1243 (4)      1987           331.17
5.New York          799 (3)       1143 (7)      1942           323.67
6.Seattle           703 (5)       1174 (6)      1877           312.83
7.San Diego         808 (2)        985 (12)     1793           298.83
8.L.A. Raiders      695 (6)       1076 (8)      1771           295.17
9.Cleveland         414 (12)      1188 (5)      1602           267.
*10.Miami           538 (10)      1005 (9)      1543           308.6
11.Pittsburgh       539 (9)        987 (11)     1526           254.33
*12.Buffalo         598 (7)        918 (14)     1516           303.
*13.New England     407 (13)      1002 (10)     1409           281.8
*14.Indianapolis    317 (14)       959 (13)     1276           255.2


DEFENSE            Rushing        Passing       Total         Yds per game
*1.Miami            412 (1)        870 (1)      1282           256.4
2.Pittsburgh        536 (4)        960 (3)      1496           249.33
*3.Buffalo          638 (8)        902 (2)      1540           308
4.L.A.Raiders       527 (3)       1072 (5)      1599           266.5
5.Houston           550 (5)       1058 (4)      1608           268.
*6.Indianapolis     513 (2)       1216 (11)     1729           345.8
7.San Diego         581 (6)       1175 (9)      1756           292.67
8.Cleveland         663 (11)      1098 (6)      1761           293.5
*9.New England      686 (12)      1136 (7)      1822           364.4
10.Kansas City      692 (13)      1147 (8)      1839           306.5
11.Seattle          611 (7)       1312 (12)     1923           320.5
12.New York         832 (14)      1175 (9)      2007           334.5
13.Denver           654 (10)      1413 (13)     2067           344.5
14.Cincinnati       640 (9)       1764 (14)     2404           400.67



JaKe

5.756GOLF::KINGRPREPARE to die earth scum!!!!!!!!!!!Tue Oct 16 1990 09:039
    I have heard of announcers commenting about players but I have never
    heard the whole booth trash a player like the MNF team go after Andre
    Waters of Philly last night. The replay people clearly showed Me.
    waters going after the knees of Minny players. Gannon was going out of
    bounds and good old Andre went right for his knees..

    Any other noters like to comment on this?

    REK
5.757No room for itSHALOT::HUNTNo. 1 Ranked Virginia CavaliersTue Oct 16 1990 10:2814
    I cringe every time I see slow motion replays of Andre Waters.   He
    tries so hard to convince people that he's being agressive and
    intimidating but the evidence illustrates otherwise, doesn't it ???
    
    On the majority of plays, he's doing the right thing.  You saw the
    Vikes' Hassan Jones forget about catching the ball late in the game
    when he *knew* Waters was around.  But those extra little "things" he
    does have got to go.   The pessimist in me believes that Buddy Ryan
    coaches this stuff.   The optimist believes that it's only one player
    taking notes.
    
    Pretty disgusting, isn't it ???
    
    Bob Hunt
5.758EDIT::CRITZLeMond Wins '86,'89,'90 TdFTue Oct 16 1990 10:4611
    	The Vikings' impact player, Herschel Walker, looked awful.
    
    	Chris Carter looked good. Can you imagine AC and CC on the
    	field together? Wowie Kazowie.
    
    	As previously mentioned, Waters looked like he was going
    	for the knees. Gannon shoulda kicked him in the head.
    
    	Referees made some bad calls.
    
    	Scott
5.759assistance requestedAIMHI::DONNELLYDare to be diffidentTue Oct 16 1990 11:313
    Does anyone happen to have/know the scoring summary from last night's
    game.  It's my week as statistician for our fantasy football league and
    I wasn't able to watch the game last night.  Thanks for any info... glen
5.760Scoring for last night's gameGOLF::KINGRPREPARE to die earth scum!!!!!!!!!!!Tue Oct 16 1990 11:4412
Phi FG Ruzek 38 yds
Phi Williams 19 yd pass from Cunningham kick failed
Min C.Carter 42 yds pass from Gannon Igwebuike PAT
Min Fenney 1 yd run Igweb PAT
Min C. Carter 78 yds pass from Gannon Igwebuike PAT
Phi FG Ruzek 30 yds
Phi FG Ruzek 29 yds
Min FG Igweb 33
Phi Barnett 40 yd pass from Cunningham Igweb PAT
Phi Toney 6 yrd run Ruzek PAt
Phi FG Ruzek 19 yds

5.761REFINE::ASHEHomey don't play that...Tue Oct 16 1990 12:20549
    Anyone have an update for this or know how I can get one?
    (courtesy Jeff Needle)
    
Thu Oct 04 17:30
NFL INJURIES 
* = new addition


TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS - Starting offensive guard Tom McHale
(strained knee) is on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the eighth game of the
season. *Backup offensive guard Carl Bax (suspended for first
three games after testing positive for steroid use) is eligible
to return to action. Deep reserve center Dan Graham (shoulder)
and deep reserve defensive back A.J. Greene (knee) are on the
injured reserve list and will miss the entire 1990 season. 

DALLAS COWBOYS - *Starting wide receiver Michael Irvin (knee) and
reserve cornerback Kenneth Gant (hamstring) were activated from
the injured reserve list Monday and are available for action.
Backup strong safety Stan Smagala (broken bone in forearm) was
placed on the injured reserve list and is expected to be
sidelined until at least mid-to-late November. Deep reserve
running back Judd Garrett (shoulder) is on the injured reserve
list and is not eligible to be activated until at least the sixth
game of the season. *Starting offensive guard Jeff Zimmerman
(knee) and deep reserve wide receiver Derrick Shepard (hamstring)
are eligible to come off the injured reserve list. Key reserve
running back Keith Jones (knee surgery), reserve safety Scott
Ankrom (arthroscopic surgery on left knee) and deep reserve tight
end Steve Johnson (knee) are on the injured reserve list and will
miss the entire season. *Reserve offensive tackle Louis Cheek
(tested postive for steroid use) was eligible to return from his
three-game suspension this week but was placed on the injured
reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the eighth game of the season. *Starting linebacker Jesse Solomon
is the team's remaining holdout. 

KANSAS CITY CHIEFS - *Starting halfback Todd McNair (shoulder)
and starting linebacker Derrick Thomas (bruised ribs) have both
been upgraded to probable for Sunday's game versus the Colts.
*Starting offensive guard David Lutz (knee) and backup free
safety Danny Copeland (ankle) are questionable. Backup halfback
Kenny Gamble (knee) is on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the sixth game of the
season. *Backup fullback James Saxon (ankle/shoulder), backup
linebacker Lonnie Marts (ankle), starting tight end Johnathan
Hayes (separated shoulder), backup offensive tackle Rob Woods
(foot), projected backup wide receiver Fred Jones (arthroscopic
knee surgery) and deep reserve defensive tackle Tom Sims (ankle)
are all eligible to come off the injured reserve list. Deep
reserve running back Ernie Thompson (neck) is on the injured
reserve list and will miss the entire season. Starting safety
Deron Cherry (knee surgery) is on the physically unable to
perform list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the seventh game of the season.  

INDIANAPOLIS COLTS - *Starting quarterback Jeff George (pulled
abdominal muscle) and starting cornerback Eugene Daniel (sprained
knee) are both listed as doubtful for Sunday's game versus Kansas
City. *Starting linebacker Jeff Herrod (pelvis), starting punt
returner/backup wide receiver Clarence Verdin (toe) and backup
free safety John Baylor (hamstring) are all questionable. Third-
string QB Mark Herrmann (separated shoulder) was placed on the
injured reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at
least the eighth game of the season. Backup tight end Eugene
Riley (ankle) is on the injured reserve list and is not eligible
to be activated until at least the sixth game of the season.
Starting running back Eric Dickerson (hamstring/disciplinary) is
on the reserve/non-football injury suspended list and must sit
out at least the first six games of the regular season. *Starting
linebacker O'Brien Alston (knee) is eligible to come off the
injured reserve list. Deep reserve wide receiver Reggie Williams
(knee) and deep reserve defensive back Ron Robinson (knee) are on
the injured reserve list and will miss the entire 1990 season. 

NEW YORK JETS - *Starting offensive tackle Jeff Criswell (jammed
neck) has been upgraded to probable for Sunday's game versus
Miami. Kick-returner A.B Brown (reconstructive knee surgery) was
placed on the injured reserve list and will be sidelined for the
remainder of the season. *Possible starting linebacker Alex
Gordon (hamstring), deep reserve running back Patrick Egu (broken
arm), deep reserve wide receiver Dale Dawkins (knee surgery),
deep reserve offensive tackle Scott Jones (foot) and deep reserve
offensive guard Dwayne White (back) are all eligible to come off
the injured reserve list. Deep reserve defensive backs Rich Miano
(knee) and Terry Williams (knee), and reserve tight end Pat Kelly
(knee) are on the physically unable to perform list and are not
eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of the
season. Backup defensive tackle Marty Lyons (tricep surgery) and
backup linebacker Troy Benson (neck) are on the injured reserve
list and will miss the entire 1990 season. *Starting defensive
end Paul Frase (thyroid disorder), who was placed on the non-
football illness list in the pre-season, has returned to practice
and may be able to return to action sometime this season.

MIAMI DOLPHINS - *Starting offensive guard Keith Sims (torn knee
cartilage) will undergo arthroscopic surgery Tuesday and will be
sidelined at least four weeks. *Starting wide receiver Mark
Clayton (ankle), starting nose tackle Brian Sochia (groin) and
backup wide receiver Fred Banks (foot) are all questionable for
Sunday's game versus the New York Jets. *Backup tight end Brian
Kinchen (hamstring) was placed on the injured reserve list
Thursday and is not eligible to be activated until at least the
ninth game of the season. Reserve nose tackle Shawn Lee (ankle)
was placed on the injured reserve list and is not eligible to be
activated until at least the eighth game of the season. *Starting
cornerback Paul Lankford (knee), starting linebacker Barry Krauss
(torn knee ligaments) and deep reserve offensive tackle Barry
Pettyjohn (knee) are all eligible to come off the injured reserve
list. Deep reserve defensive back Stevon Moore (knee) and deep
reserve cornerback Sean Vanhorse (foot) are on the physically
unable to perform list and are not eligible to be activated until
at least the seventh game of the season. Backup defensive end
John Bosa (knee surgery), deep reserve cornerback Donnie Elder
(hamstring), deep reserve tight end Warren Bone (knee), deep
reserve running back George Swarn (ankle), reserve offensive
tackle Dave Popp (knee) and reserve fullback Leroy Holt (neck)
are on the injured reserve list and will miss the entire 1990
season. Reserve safety Bobby Harden (shoulder) is on the
reserve/non-football injury list and is sidelined indefinitely. 

NEW ORLEANS SAINTS - *Deep reserve tight end Charles Arbuckle
(knee) was activated from the injured reserve list this week and
was placed on the Saints' five-man practice squad. Starting
defensive end Frank Warren (substance abuse) was suspended by the
league for one year on April 30th and will miss the entire 1990
season. Deep reserve center Todd Wheeler (knee) is on the injured
reserve list and will miss the entire 1990 season. *Starting
quarterback Bobby Hebert is the club's remaining holdout and may
soon be traded.

ATLANTA FALCONS - *Starting wide receiver Michael Haynes (ankle)
is probable for Sunday's game versus New Orleans. *Backup
offensive tackle John Hunter (hip) is listed as out. *Reserve
wide receiver Stacey Bailey (ankle) is questionable. *Starting
safety Tim Gordon (shoulder), deep reserve wide receiver George
Thomas (knee), deep reserve offensive tackle Reggie Redding and
deep reserve running back Mike Pringle (ribs) were all activated
from the injured reserve list Wednesday and placed on the
practice squad. Deep reserve wide receiver Kevin Simien (knee),
deep reserve running back Darren Norris (foot), backup linebacker
Galand Thaxton (ankle) and deep reserve wide receiver Titus Dixon
(knee) are on the injured reserve list and will miss the entire
1990 season. 

SAN DIEGO CHARGERS - *Starting free safety Vencie Glenn (head)
and starting defensive end Burt Grossman (shoulder) are
questionable for Sunday's game versus Pittsburgh. *Backup wide
receiver Nate Lewis (thigh) is doubtful. *Backup cornerback Joe
Fuller (hamstring) was placed on the injured reserve list
Wednesday and is not eligible to be activated until at least the
ninth game of the season. Starting defensive tackle Joe Phillips
(broken nose and facial fracture) was placed on the non-football
injury list and is expected to be sidelined until at least early
December. Starting line backer Billy Ray Smith (pulled stomach
muscle) is on the injured reserve list and is not eligible to be
activated until at least the seventh game of the season. Deep
reserve wide receiver Ron Heard (thigh) was placed on the injured
reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the seventh game of the season. Deep reserve defensive end Gerald
Robinson (knee) was placed on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the sixth game of the
season. *Starting offensive tackle Joel Patton (knee) and deep
reserve quarterback John Friesz (shoulder) are eligible to come
off the injured reserve list. Starting wide receiver Wayne Walker
(knee surgery), backup linebacker David Brandon (knee surgery),
reserve offensive guard Mike Simmonds (knee) and deep reserve
offensive guard Chris Goetz (elbow) are on the injured reserve
list and will miss the entire 1990 season.   

PITTSBURGH STEELERS - Starting cornerback Delton Hall (partially
torn tendon in left knee) is on the injured reserve list and is
not eligible to be activated until at least the sixth game of the
season. *Projected backup defensive end Craig Veasey (eye) is
eligible to come off the injured reserve list. Deep reserve
defensive end Karl Dunbar (foot) is on the reserve/non-football
injury list and is sidelined indefinitely. Backup center Chuck
Lanza (tricep surgery) and deep reserve center Gene Cullinane
(knee) are on the injured reserve list and will miss the entire
1990 season. 

SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS - *Starting wide receiver John Taylor (back)
is questionable for Sunday's game versus Houston. *Backup
cornerback Eric Wright (hamstring) has been downgraded to out.
*Starting linebacker Mike Walter (finger surgery) was placed on
the injured reserve list Monday and is not eligible to be
activated until at least the ninth game of the season. *Backup
defensive end Larry Roberts (shoulder) was activated from the
injured reserve list Monday and is available for action. Backup
defensive end Pete Kugler (sore shoulders) is on the injured
reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the eighth game of the season. Deep reserve linebacker Martin
Harrison (shoulder) was placed on the injured reserve list and is
not eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of
the season. *Projected backup wide receiver Ronald Lewis
(fractures in back) and backup fullback Keith Henderson (knee
surgery) are eligible to come off the injured reserve list.
Starting center Wayne Radloff (knee) and deep reserve offensive
tackle Dave Cullity (shoulder) are on the injured reserve list
and will miss the entire 1990 season. Deep reserve offensive
lineman Dean Caliguire (foot) is on the physically unable to
perform list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the seventh game of the season.

HOUSTON OILERS - *Starting offensive tackle Dean Steinkuhler
(elbow) is questionable for Sunday's game versus Houston.
Starting linebacker Lamar Lathon (arthroscopic shoulder surgery)
was placed on the injured reserve list and is not eligible to be
activated until at least the eighth game of the season. *Deep
reserve defensive back Dee Thomas (elbow) is eligible to come off
the injured reserve list. Deep reserve wide receiver Willie Snead
(ankle) is on the injured reserve list and will miss the entire
1990 season. Reserve safety Brett Tucker (knee) was placed on the
reserve/non-football injury list and is sidelined indefinitely. 

DETROIT LIONS - *Starting quarterback Rodney Peete (hamstring) is
expected to miss the next two-to-three weeks and will be replaced
in the starting lineup by Bob Gagliano. *Starting linebacker
George Jamison (bruised shoulder) is questionable for Sunday's
game versus Minnesota. *Starting free safety Bennie Blades
(bruised knee) is not on the injured reserve list but is listed
as out for Sunday's game. Starting defensive end Mark Spindler
(knee surgery) is on the injured reserve list and is expected to
be sidelined for the remainder of the season. Starting cornerback
Terry Taylor (tested postive for drugs/three-time offender) was
suspended by the league and is lost for the remainder of the
season. Starting linebacker Chris Spielman (right shoulder) was
placed on the injured reserve list and is not eligible to be
activated until at least the seventh game of the season. Deep
reserve cornerback Sheldon White (ankle) is on the injured
reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the sixth game of the season. *Starting cornerback William Judson
(knee), backup cornerback Bruce Alexander (knee), deep reserve
wide receiver Robert Claiborne (back), backup nose tackle
Lawrence Pete (neck), reserve quarterback Erik Kramer (shoulder),
deep reserve wide receiver Willie Green (ankle) and deep reserve
offensive guard Roman Fortin (shoulder) are all eligible to come
off the injured reserve list. Deep reserve defensive back Sherman
Cocroft (knee) is on the physically unable to perform list and is
not eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of
the regular season. Deep reserve offensive tackle Mark Nua (foot)
and reserve linebacker Rob Hinckley (foot) are on the
reserve/non-football injury list and are sidelined indefinitely.
Deep reserve offensive tackle Jack Linn (knee) and deep reserve
running back Kenny Dawson (hamstring) are on the injured reserve
list and will miss the entire season.

MINNESOTA VIKINGS - *Starting defensive tackle Keith Millard
(major reconstructive knee surgery) was placed on the injured
reserve list Tuesday and will miss the remainder of the season.
*Starting linebacker Mark Dusbabek (knee) is questionable for
Sunday's game versus Detroit. Starting quarterback Wade Wilson
(severely sprained thumb) is on the injured reserve list and is
not eligible to be activated until at least the eighth game of
the season. Backup fullback Alfred Anderson (knee) is on the
injured reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at
least the sixth game of the season. *Projected starting free
safety Ken Stills (leg), deep reserve offensive guard David
Huffman (knee) and deep reserve wide receiver Pat Newman (ankle)
are all eligible to come off the injured reserve list. Backup
wide receiver Jim Gustafson (nerve problem in neck) and reserve
running back Terry Allen (knee) are on the injured reserve list
and will miss the entire 1990 season. *Starting kicker Rich
Karlis and reserve running back D.J. Dozier, currently playing
baseball in the New York Mets' minor league system, are the
club's remaining holdouts. 

SEATTLE SEAHAWKS - *Starting offensive tackle Ron Mattes (pulled
abdominal muscle) is questionable for Sunday's game versus New
England. *Starting quarterback Dave Krieg (ribs) is probable.
Deep reserve offensive tackle Chris Dyko (ankle) is on the
injured reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at
least the seventh game of the season. Backup wide receiver Jim
Sandusky (knee) is on the injured reserve list and will miss the
entire 1990 season. *Starting middle linebacker David Wyman (sore
left knee), reserve offensive guard Warren Wheat (off-season
surgery on herniated disc) and deep reserve safety R.J. Kors
(knee) are all eligible to come off the injured reserve list.

NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS - *Starting quarterback Steve Grogan (back),
starting strong safety Roland James (groin), starting linebacker
Vincent Brown (foot), starting linebacker Andre Tippett
(hamstring), backup center David Douglas (knee) and backup
defensive end Sean Smith (back) are all listed as questionable
for Sunday's game versus Seattle. *Reserve tight end Lin Dawson
(ankle) was placed on the injured reserve list Wednesday and is
not eligible to be activated until at least the ninth game of the
season. Backup linebacker Richard Tardits (deep bone bruise in
leg) was placed on the injured reserve list and is not eligible
to be activated until at least the eighth game of the season.
Backup free safety Tony Zackery (dislocated right shoulder) is on
the injured reserve list and is expected to be sidelined until at
least the tenth game of the season. Starting offensive tackle
David Viaene (ankle) is on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the sixth game of the
season. *Starting offensive guards Sean Farrell (left shoulder
surgery) and Paul Fairchild (neck), projected starting tight end
Zeke Mowatt (hand), backup offensive guard Jon Melander (knee),
deep reserve wide receiver Michael Timpson (finger) deep reserve
cornerback Ventson Donelson (wrist) are all eligible to come off
the injured reserve list. Deep reserve defensive end Chris Gannon
(knee) is on the physically unable to perform list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of the
season. Deep reserve cornerback Ernest Gibson (neck) is on the
injured reserve list and will miss the entire 1990 season. 

CINCINNATI BENGALS - *Starting wide receiver Eddie Brown (knee
and ankle) is questionable for Sunday's game versus the Los
Angeles Rams. Former starting running back Ickey Woods (major
knee surgery) is on the physically unable to perform list and is
not eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of
the season. Woods is expected to be ready as soon as he is
eligible to be activated. *Backup wide receiver Reggie Rembert
(hamstring), starting offensive guard Bruce Reimers (broken
foot), reserve wide receiver Lynn James (ulcer) and deep reserve
offensive tackle Kirk Scraffold (knee) are all eligible to come
off the injured reserve list. Starting cornerback Eric Thomas
(knee surgery after getting injured in off-season basketball
game) is on the reserve/non-football injury list and will miss
the entire 1990 sesason. 

LOS ANGELES RAMS - *Starting cornerback Jerry Gray (knee) was
activated from the injured reserve list Monday and is available
for action. Deep reserve tight end Richard Ashe (stress fracture
of left foot) was placed on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of the
season. *Reserve wide receiver Tony Lomack (hamstring), deep
reserve tight end Jim Price (hamstring), starting linebacker
Larry Kelm (knee) and backup cornerback Daryl Henley (hip) are
all eligible to come off the injured reserve list. Reserve
cornerback Cliff Hicks (knee surgery) was placed on the
physically unable to perform list and is not eligible to be
activated until at least the seventh game of the season. Deep
reserve offensive lineman Rodney Lossow (knee) is on the injured
reserve list and will miss the entire 1990 season. 

GREEN BAY PACKERS - *Backup offensive guard Billy Ard (ankle) is
questionable for Sunday's game versus Chicago. Deep reserve
linebacker Bobby Houston (pneumonia) is on the non-football
illness list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the seventh game of the season. Starting free safety Chuck Cecil
(hamstring) was placed on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the sixth game of the
season. Starting cornerback Dave Brown (achilles tendinitis) was
placed on the physically unable to perform list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of the
season. *Backup defensive end Shawn Patterson (hamstring), deep
reserve wide receiver Erik Affholter (hamstring), deep reserve
defensive end Mark Hall (knee) and backup linebacker Bryce Paup
(hand) are all eligible to come off the injured reserve list.
Backup offensive tackle Mike Ariey (leg), deep reserve offensive
guards Charles Wright (knee) and Tony Smith (leg) are on the
injured reserve list and will miss the entire 1990 season.
*Reserve nose tackle Jerry Boyarsky has retired. 

CHICAGO BEARS - *Starting running back Neal Anderson (bruised
ribs) has been upgraded to probable for Sunday's game versus
Green Bay but he is far from 100%. *Starting wide receiver
Wendell Davis (hamstring) is questionable. Backup running
back/punt returner Mark Green (cartilage damage in left knee) is
on the injured reserve list and is not eligible to be activated
until at least the eighth game of the season. *Deep reserve
defensive tackle Terry Price (elbow), backup linebacker Dante
Jones (knee), backup wide receiver Glen Kozlowski (groin) and
deep reserve wide receiver Tony Moss (knee) are all eligible to
come off the injured reserve list. Deep reserve wide receiver
Cedric Tillman (shoulder) is on the injured reserve list and will
miss the entire season. 

LOS ANGELES RAIDERS - *Part-time starting defensive lineman Mike
Wise (ankle) and starting strong safety Mike Harden (neck) are
questionable for Sunday's game versus Buffalo. Starting
cornerback Garry Lewis (broken collarbone) was placed on the
injured reserve list and is not eligible to return to action
until at least the eighth game of the season. Starting tight end
Mike Dyal (hamstring) is on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of the
season. Starting defensive end Howie Long (broken toe on right
foot) is on the injured reserve list and is expected to remain
sidelined until at least the ninth game of the season. *Starting
offensive tackle Bruce Wilkerson (knee), backup cornerback Dennis
Price (collarbone) and backup wide receiver Mike Alexander
(hamstring) are all eligible to come off the injured reserve
list. Rookie defensive end Anthony Smith (major knee surgery) and
reserve offensive guard Newt Harrell (surgery for torn knee
ligaments) are on the injured reserve list and will miss the
entire 1990 season.  

BUFFALO BILLS - *Starting offensive tackle Will Wolford
(hamstring) and backup wide receiver Don Beebe (hamstring) are
questionable for Sunday's game versus the Los Angeles Raiders.
Backup linebacker Hal Garner (foot) and backup safety Dwight
Drane (ankle) were placed on the injured reserve list and are not
eligible to be activated until at least the eighth game of the
season. Reserve offensive guard Brent Griffith (back) is on the
injured reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at
least the sixth game of the season. *Projected starting fullback
Carwell Gardner (knee), backup offensive lineman Leonard Burton
(knee) and backup running back Eddie Fuller (knee) are all
eligible to come off the injured reserve list. Deep reserve
running back Robb Riddick (knee), deep reserve wide receiver
Deval Glover (ankle) and deep reserve safety Tim Smiley
(hamstring) are on the physically unable to perform list and are
not eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of
the season. Backup wide receiver John Kolesar (knee), deep
reserve running back Sean Doctor (dislocated shoulder), deep
reserve linebacker Wes Pritchett (shoulder), deep reserve running
back Eric Starr (knee), reserve defensive back Carl Mims
(hamstring), deep reserve defensive back Tom Gerhart (knee) and
backup kicker Kerry Brady (hip flexor) are on the injured reserve
list and will miss the entire 1990 season.  

CLEVELAND BROWNS - *Starting defensive end Tom Gibson (hernia
operation) was activated from the injured reserve list Wednesday.
*Starting quarterback Bernie Kosar (knee and elbow) and starting
running back Leroy Hoard (ankle) were upgraded to probable for
Monday night's game versus Denver. *Starting offensive tackle
Paul Farren (leg) is questionable. *Starting offensive guard Ted
Banker (knee), backup wide receiver Lawyer Tillman (stress
fracture in left ankle), backup cornerback Mark Harper
(shoulder), backup defensive end Rhondy Weston (knee), deep
reserve wide receiver Harlon Bennett (back) and deep reserve wide
receiver Mike Oliphant (hamstring) are all eligible to come off
the injured reserve list. Backup defensive end Andrew Stewart
(achilles tendon), reserve fullback Tim Manoa (dislocated elbow),
third-string quarterback Jeff Graham (shoulder), reserve safety
Kyle Kramer (shoulder) and deep reserve defensive end Marlon
Jones (broken foot) are on the injured reserve list and will miss
the entire 1990 season. Starting offensive guard Dan Fike (knee)
was placed on the physically unable to perform list list  and
will be sidelined until at least the seventh game of the season.
*Starting defensive back Frank Minnifield ended his holdout
Tuesday and rejoined the team. *Minnifield is presently on the
inactive list.

DENVER BRONCOS - *Starting defensive end Ron Holmes (buttocks)
and starting offensive tackle Gerald Perry (ankle) are both
listed as doubtful for Monday night's game versus Cleveland.
*Part-time starting free safety Alton Montgomery (groin), backup
running back Steve Sewell (ribs) and reserve linebacker Anthony
Thompson (ankle) are all questionable. Starting cornerback Tyrone
Braxton (surgery for torn right knee ligament) and backup tight
end Chris Verhulst (severe groin muscle tear) were placed on the
injured reserve list and are not eligible to be activated until
at least the eighth game of the season. *Deep reserve linebackers
Tim Lucas (foot) and Ronnie Haliburton (knee) and deep reserve
offensive tackle Brent Parkinson (knee) are eligible to come off
the injured reserve list. Starting defensive end Alphonso
Carreker (knee) is on the injured reserve list and will miss the
entire season. Backup offensive guard Monte Smith (accidently
shot himself in the foot) is on the reserve/non-football injury
list and will miss the entire season. Deep reserve cornerback Le-
Lo Lang (foot) is on the reserve/non-football injury list and is
sidelined indefinitely.   

NEW YORK GIANTS - *Starting wide receiver Odessa Turner (knee
surgery) was injured against the Cowboys, was placed on the
injured reserve list Monday and is not eligible to be activated
until at least the ninth game of the season. Starting kicker Raul
Allegre (groin pull) was placed on the injured reserve list and
is not eligible to be activated until at least the eighth game of
the season. *Starting tight end Mark Bavaro (sore ankle) missed
the Cowboys game but is expected to return for the Giants' next
game. Starting cornerback Mark Collins (ankle) is on the injured
reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the seventh game of the season. *Deep reserve defensive end Clint
James (hamstring) and reserve kicker Matt Stover (quad muscle in
right leg) are eligible to come off the injured reserve list.
Possible starting strong safety Adrian White (major knee
surgery), deep reserve defensive back Joe Fishbeck (bruised back)
and deep reserve defensive back Greg Boysaw (broken foot) are on
the injured reserve list and will miss the entire 1990 season. 

PHILADELPHIA EAGLES - Starting offensive tackle Matt Darwin
(twisted knee) was placed on the injured reserve list and is
expected to be sidelined until at least early-to-mid December.
*Starting linebacker Jessie Small (hip pointer) and starting wide
receiver Mike Quick (sore quad muscles) both missed the Colts'
game but are expected back for the Eagles' next game. Starting
defensive tackle Mike Pitts (knee surgery) is on the injured
reserve list and is expected to be sidelined until at least the
final few weeks of the regular season. Backup wide receiver Mike
Bellamy (groin) is on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the sixth game of the
season. *Deep reserve wide receiver/kick returner Anthony Edwards
(knee) and backup safety Kevin Thompson (surgery for dislocated
collarbone) are eligible to come off the injured reserve list.
Thompson is expected to be sidelined until at least the seventh
game of the season. Starting punter John Teltschik (knee
surgery), backup center John Hudson (knee), deep reserve
cornerback Otis Smith (appendicitis) and deep reserve linebacker
Eric Wainwright (leg) are on the physically unable to perform
list and are not eligible to be activated until at least the
seventh game of the season. Deep reserve linebacker Ron Moten
(knee) is on the injured reserve list and will miss the entire
1990 season. 

PHOENIX CARDINALS - Starting fullback Ron Wolfley (shoulder) was
placed on the injured reserve list and is not eligible to be
activated until at least the eighth game of the season. Starting
defensive tackle Bob Clasby (knee) was placed on the injured
reserve list and is not eligible to be activated until at least
the sixth game of the season. *Starting defensive end David
Galloway (ankle) and backup cornerback Stanley Blair
(arthroscopic knee surgery) are eligible to come off the injured
reserve list. Starting fullback Earl Ferrell (tested positive for
drugs), the team's leading rusher last season, has been suspended
for the entire 1990 season. Deep reserve wide receiver Darren
Flutie (fractured foot), deep reserve linebacker Reggie McKenzie
(knee), deep reserve linebacker Oliver Lawrence (ankle), deep
reserve running back John Burch (foot), deep reserve wide
receiver Bill Hess (hamstring) and reserve offensive guard Jeff
Walker (knee surgery) are on the injured reserve list and will
miss the entire 1990 season. Deep reserve offensive guard John
Brandom (tested postive for steroid use), a free agent who was a
longshot to make the team, is on the non-football illness list
and has been suspended for the first three games of the regular
season. 

WASHINGTON REDSKINS - Starting quarterback Mark Rypien (knee
surgery) will miss six-to-eight weeks and was placed on the
injured reserve list. Backup strong safety Clarence Vaughn
(sprained knee) was placed on the injured reserve list and is not
eligible to be activated until at least the seventh game of the
season. *Reserve offensive linemen Mo Elewonibi (shoulder) and
Ray Brown (knee), third-string quarterback Jeff Rutledge
(shoulder), deep reserve linebacker Jon Leverenz (hamstring) and
deep reserve wide receiver Stephen Hobbs (knee) are all eligible
to come off the injured reserve list. Projected starting
cornerback A.J. Johnson (major knee surgery) is on the physically
unable to perform list and is expected to miss the entire 1990
season. Starting offensive tackle Mark May (knee surgery) and
backup defensive tackle James Geathers (knee) were placed on the
physically unable to perform list and are not eligible to be
activated until at least the seventh game of the regular season.
Deep reserve quarterback Cary Conklin (knee), deep reserve
cornerback D'Juan Francisco (knee), deep reserve fullback Tom
Brown (knee), deep reserve wide receiver Charles Lockett (quad)
and deep reserve running back Reggie Branch (fractured ankle) are
on the injured reserve list and will miss the entire season.
Starting defensive end Dexter Manley (suspension for drug use)
will remain ineligible until at least November 18th.  

 
* = new addition

Compiled by Don Leventhal
    
5.762LAGUNA::MAY_BRalmost Ozzie #$%%#$@ GuillenTue Oct 16 1990 12:369
    
    I've never seen a team throw in the towel the way the Vikes did last
    night.  Once it appeared that the Eagles might come back, they quit.
    Jones should get reamed for the lack of effort on the pass attempt. 
    The last 4th down play was pitiful.
    
    What an ugly game, to boot.
    
    Bruce
5.763CARP::SHAUGHNESSYDeputy Andy keelt Laura PalmerTue Oct 16 1990 13:3536
    The Herschel Walker trade goes down as very likely the worst ever
    in NFL history.  It's no coincidence that Mike Lynn is skeedaddling
    before a_angry mob of Minnesotans string him up for this crime. 
    
    He made Jimmy Johnson into a genius, and singlehandedly assured the
    unlikable Cowboys of a quick rebuilding.  But Jimmy just did the 
    obvious: He took one look at Walker and saw that the main who speaks
    of himself in the third person isn't even among the 25 best RBs in
    the league.  So he goes out and gets 4 starters and 9 or 10 high
    draft choices and rids himself of a boat anchor in one easy stroke!
    
    Herschel cain't cut, break tackles, run routes, block, pick holes
    properly, get through the line, or fall forward.  I don't know of a
    single skill that Herschel has, except perhaps raw straight ahead
    speed, and even that is fading.  
    
    Herschel was never that good to begin with, and at this point he is
    very likely the absolute worst halfback in the NFL.  Burns benched
    him for one reason: The no-name substitute who filled in for him was
    a helluva lot better.
    
    As local writer put it, "Herschel is the only blocking running back
    with two TV shows and a $1.5 million dollar salary."  Another wrote,
    "here's a guy who hasn't lowered his shoulder to break a tackle since
    he's been with the Vikings, who assists in being tackled, who tip-toes
    into the hole looking to be lowered to the ground, and he's off trying
    out for a bobsledding team.  Maybe he should try and master football
    and earn his huge salary in the NFL before he tries sledding."
    
    And these were *before* last night's wretched but typical performance.
    
    3 rushes for 3 yards.  Not all that unusual.  Walker is aptly named, 
    although Herschel Faller would be better.  He cain't do no worse, cuz
    he *is* the worst!
    
    MrT
5.764FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Tue Oct 16 1990 14:2114
    Re:  Herschel
    
    Although I agree he has been extremely dissapointing, I did not see
    much evidence from the OL that they could create any holes for the RBs.
    After facing the defense one vs 2-3 it sure would get old.  If your
    teamates aren't trying why should you get killed or injured ?
    
    Re: Andre Waters
    
    The dirtiest player in the NFL.  I look forward to the day he gets an
    INT and really gets whalloped by an O Lineman the size of Blubba Paris.
    
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
5.765EDIT::CRITZLeMond Wins '86,'89,'90 TdFTue Oct 16 1990 15:187
    	John,
    
    	>> Blubba Paris
    
    	I know it was a typo, but what a Freudian slip. 8-)>
    
    	Scott
5.766CARP::SHAUGHNESSYDeputy Andy keelt Laura PalmerTue Oct 16 1990 16:5812
    I hear what you're saying, but no, Herschel just cain't run, Cowboy.
    
    He's been consistently outgained by other runners on the staff.  He
    hasn't shown a willingness to take on tacklers, and is tip-toeing
    into the hole.  The Vikes set up an I-back set for him this year and
    used it earlier on but he's so slow to the line that they scrapped it
    cuz he was being thrown for a loss so often.
    
    The man has no heart.  He's the easiest tackle this side of powder
    puff football.     
    
    MrT
5.767FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Tue Oct 16 1990 17:5915
    Actually the "l" in "Blubba" was not a typo.
    
    T, you are so right about him showing no heart.  This guy is an awesome
    athletic specimen (no offence to Bo) who can even do ballet, by he
    shows no interest in football.  
    
    He was tremendous when he first came to the Cowboys, but then everything 
    went downhill from there.  I do not think he really understood what it 
    meant to be on a losing team and his confidence is gone. He has caused
    a lot of trouble to the Vikings, esp among his teammates (reg. money)
    and Herschel is a nice guy who does not like to hurt people's feelings.
    
    Gotta go
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
5.768:^)PFSVAX::JACOBEverUseADictaphone..NopeJustMyFingersTue Oct 16 1990 18:038
    Re T and Herschel:
    
    You gotta admit though, Herschel seemed to know how to pitch the ball
    backwards on that Flea Flicker, didn't he.  Now there's a situation
    type player if I ever saw one.  
    
    JaKe
    
5.769EARRTH::BROOKSStraight - no chaser ...Tue Oct 16 1990 18:1010
    I can't believe that was Walker .... T, are you sure that wasn't you in
    his jersey ? 
    
    As for Mike Lynn, he had the audicaity to say that he would do the
    Walker trade again ....
    
    Well Mike, so would the Cowboys .....
    
    The NFL ought to make him stay in Minnesota until management can have
    the pleasure of firing the bum.
5.770CARP::SHAUGHNESSYDeputy Andy keelt Laura PalmerTue Oct 16 1990 18:3122
    You got a sharp eye, JaKe: The one thing Herschel did well yesterday
    was get rid of the ball.  But, after he got rid of it, did you see
    him being to begin falling into the arms of the DE who didn't even
    want him at that point, as if magnetically drawn by a need to be 
    softly lowered to the ground.  Then there was the runoff, where as 
    usual he didn't keep his haid up so as to pick his way through would-
    be tacklers.  Instead he slams into the back of a blocker, and of
    course does not even attempt to regain his balance but instead softly
    lowers his precious stud bod to the safety of the turf.  His best
    moment was on the kickoff where he showed his speed by running sideways
    out a bounds so as to not even have to, yes, softly lower his stud bod
    to the ground.
    
    >so management can fire him...
    
    Wake up call, Doc.  Mike Lynn controls the team and owns a major 
    minority portion of the stock.  Irwin Jacobs and Twins owner Carl
    Polhad bought up a bunch of stock years back in an attempted ouster
    and have been fighting Lynn in court ever since.  Lynn, to a large
    degree, is a_owner/GM, and answers only to the Board of Directors.
    
    MrT
5.771REFINE::ASHEHomey don't play that...Tue Oct 16 1990 18:369
    Anyone know the status of:
    Lawyer Tillman
    Chris Speilman
    Roger Craig
    Wade Wilson
    Mark Rypien
    (not necessarily on IR, but how many weeks until they return).
    
    -Walt
5.772CARP::SHAUGHNESSYDeputy Andy keelt Laura PalmerTue Oct 16 1990 18:537
    No Wade Wilson for another 3-5 weeks.  The cartilage on his 
    throwing thumb was very badly ripped so they won't bring him
    back early cuz it would be disastrous to his full recovery and
    anyway why bother the Vikes are smoked for this year.  My guess
    is that Wilson won't be back on the grid until late November,
    and could end up sittng out the whole year unless Rich Gannon
    starts improving.
5.773Walker is disappointing to say the leastRAVEN1::M_PHILLIPSFlirting With DisasterWed Oct 17 1990 00:507
    T, have to agree with you on the statments about Walker, He seems to
    not show an any interest in even trying to run.
    
    Waters is clearly trying to hurt someone and ruin their career. He will
    get whats coming to him sooner or later. What comes around goes around.
    
                                                            M.J.
5.774CAM::WAYBeaten like a redheaded stepchild...Thu Oct 18 1990 13:5048
This is a bit late, but someone mentioned Housman's "To An Athlete Dying Young"
in reference to the referee who died last week.

I just thought I'd put it in, because it says a lot about sports in general...




To an Athlete Dying Young
-------------------------

The time you won your town the race
We chaired you through the market-place;
Man and boy stood cheering by,
And home we brought you shoulder-high.

To-day, the road all runners come,
Shoulder-high we bring you home,
And set you at your threshold down,
Townsman of a stiller town.

Smart lad, to slip betimes away,
From fields where glory does not stay
And early though the laurel grows
It withers quicker than the rose.

Eyes the shady night has shut
Cannot see the record cut,
And silence sounds no worse than cheers
After earth has stopped the ears.

Now you will not swell the rout
Of lads that wore their honors out,
Runners whom renown outran
And the name died before the man.

So set, before its echoes fade,
The fleet foot on the sill of shade,
Adn hold to the low lintel up
The still-defended challenge-cup.

And round that early-laurelled head
Will flock to gaze the strengthless dead,
And find unwithered on its curls
The garland briefer than a girl's.

			-- A. E. Housman (1859-1936)

5.775Thought you'd want to know...HOTSHT::SCHNEIDERVoted for whatsisname...Fri Oct 19 1990 17:3748
    Yo MorT, didja see the latest on Herschel Walker?  It's in today's The
    National...
    
    Unhappy Walker wants ball more;  agent rips Vikes
    
    Herschel Walker criticized the Minn. Vikings' coaching staff Thursday,
    complaining about the play-calling and contending he still could be
    among the NFL's most productive players with more handoffs.
    
    The comments came complete with play-me-or-trade-me overtones.
    
    During the interview from his home near Dallas, Walker also said his
    benching during Monday night's loss to Phil. was embarrassing, and he
    hinted he might seek to leave the Vikings when his contract expires at
    the end of the season....
    
    Walker apparantly spoke out because of concern that his image is
    deteriorating.
    
    "Herschel would like to play several more years, but he doesn't want to
    play as a blocking back or with a team that uses him three times a
    game," agent..said.  "...He's tired of being a million-dollar decoy....
    it's been a bad trade for Herschel.  He's lost his confidence."
    
    Walker, 27, specifically denied he wants to retire, that he no longer
    enjoys playing football or that he is rich and worried only about
    avoiding injuries.
    
    
    "...it's frustrating.  There's been criticism of me, but these people
    don't have knowledge of the game.  THey don't know I'm touching the
    ball an average of three times a quarter.  Most running backs get a
    chance to play...I haven't stolen anyone's money."
    
    Walker ... is tied for 23rd in the NFL with 243 yards this
    season...Much of the blame for the disappointing season has been aimed
    at Walker.  He is averaging 11.5 carries and 40.5 rushing yards per
    game.  In Monday night's loss, he had 3 carries, 2 receptions and 7
    kickoff returns.  He lost 2 fumbles and was benched because Burns said
    he appeared "tentative" and shaky."
    
    Burns said the Vikings will reduce Walker's role... Fenney, Anderson...
    and Rice...
    
    "That would upset me," Walker said.  "It's upsetting to me not knowing
    what's going on."
    
    Ed Werder
5.776CSC32::SALZERTue Oct 23 1990 16:467
    Maybe it's just me. Has anyone else noticed a decline in quality
    officiating across the NFL?  Last night's game was delayed 10 
    minutes for them to figure out it was 3rd down not 4th.  Esiason
    should have caught at least 1 15 yard unsportsman like but they
    let him get away with it.
    
    BoB
5.777GRANPA::DFAUSTGo for 1000% moreTue Oct 23 1990 19:0717
    That's just an average game at this point. The Instant Replay guys
    don't seem to have a clue, routinely making the obviously wrong
    decision. When they do manage to get one right, the clowns on the field
    say they blew the whistle and nullify it anyway. The uneven level of
    officiating (one crew will through a personal foul flag at the drop of
    a hat, another will let "Norman" hop all over the place and show them
    up until the cows come home) tends to degrade the level of play from
    week to week. College officiating is just as bad. I don't know if there
    is a solution. I would think that a full time official, whose livlyhood
    depended on the quality of his work, might help, but I don't think the
    NFL will ever go for that. It appears that they're perfectly satisfied
    making horrendous calls and then calling coaches to appologize on
    Thursday. The Eagles coaches says he's gotten four calls like that so
    far this year. I guess that means the NFL doesn't feel they've screwed
    them twice so far this season.
    
    Dennis
5.778Inconsistency at its bestSHALOT::MEDVIDGroove is in the HeartWed Oct 24 1990 09:0913
    Just to enforce this inconsistency:
    
    Steelers DL Greg Lloyd gets a 15 yarder and is tossed from the Houston
    game after protesting a questionable touchdown call by jumping up and
    down twice and (perhaps) saying something to the official.
    
    Norman throws two absolutely immature, endless, crybaby tantrums
    pointing his fingers at the refs as if he's gonna get them (and once
    actually saying the F word too close to the official's microphone so it
    gets broadcast on national TV) over calls that were obviously in
    keeping with the rule book.  No penalty, no nothing.
    
    	--dan'l
5.779FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Wed Oct 24 1990 09:2242
    I've said this before ... the NFL will not and cannot go to full-time
    officials.
    
    The first reason is money.  Most of these guys have excellent other
    jobs and most of them would lose too much money if the NFL made them
    give up their full-time jobs.  The quality of the officiating would
    therefore go down as the NFL would have to hire dozens of less
    qualified officials to fill the slots that would be vacated.
    
    Second, with one game a week, there's not enough on-the-field action to
    keep these guys sharp.  The only way to stay sharp at officiating is to
    actually work under game conditions.  Unlike the NHL, NBA and MLB,
    where there are games constantly, NFL officials would have to officiate
    at practices.  NFL teams usually only have two days a week in long
    practices, rarely in pads, and never scrimmage during the season.  The
    situation actually gets worse as the season goes on.  So, that wouldn't
    help.
    
    Third, if you put the officials in classrooms for a few hours a day
    reviewing rules and situations, it wouldn't accomplish any more than
    what the officials are doing now, on their own.  Each official, from
    what I understand, spends a couple of hours every day on his own in
    rules review.  Each officiating crew spends a minimum of 8 hours a day
    working together the day before game reviewing the last game, reviewing
    a tape of special situations put together by the league, reviewing the
    commentary given to them by the NFL staff and so on.
    
    Fourth, unlike baseball umpires, the NFL has an observer plus the
    replay official at each game.  These guys undergo a lot of evaluation.
    
    I will agree with the following I've read, however.  Art McNally, NFL
    Director of Officiating, has been alleged to have kept several of his
    former colleagues on past their time.  When he retires at the end of
    the season (Jerry Seeman is taking over for him), it may mean the end
    of the line for some of the older officials in the league.  But there
    can't be a mass turnover - the difference between officiating college
    football and the NFL is night and day.
    
    There has to be an answer somewhere, but full-time officials aren't the
    answer.
    
    John
5.780SASE::SZABOWed Oct 24 1990 09:5812
    Rules, rules, and more rules, that's what's killed the game of
    football.  While it's easy to blam the refs, I can see where it's not
    their fault.  They're exposed too so many damn rules which, in turn,
    creates interpretational differences since no 2 situations are ever
    exactly alike.  The simpler the rules, the more easy the
    interpretation.  The fewer the rules, the less to interpret.  I'd say
    go back to some year when rules were much simpler and football was more
    enjoyable, say 1970, and use the rules that were in place then.  And, I
    know some will say that qb protection rules were too primitive then. 
    All I have to say to that is look at today's qb injury report......
    
    Hawk
5.781SHIRE::FINEUC1What the heck is a Pepere?Wed Oct 24 1990 12:1517
  Hawk

  You took the words right out of my mouth (fantastic networks, eh?).

  I was completely addicted to football until moving away in 1978.  Now I 
  get to see it once a year at most, and I can't believe how bloody long
  it takes to play a game now compared to then, and how complicated it's
  become.

  No wonder there's 7 or 8 officials on the field plus the cameras just to 
  control and interpret what's happening.

  So, while soccer seems out of date in it's (over)simplicity, football would
  look to a stranger like a game where you need lawyers on the sidelines 
  instead of coaches!

  rick ellis
5.782CAM::WAYBeaten like a redheaded stepchild...Wed Oct 24 1990 12:4713
>  So, while soccer seems out of date in it's (over)simplicity, football would
>  look to a stranger like a game where you need lawyers on the sidelines 
>  instead of coaches!

The solution to the dilemma of American Football vs Soccer?

Rugby.  As a forerunner of American Football, it has all of the action,
without the stoppage of play.  The action is non-stop for 80 minutes,
the scoring is easy to remember, there's no pads, and there's only
one ref, who is addressed as "Sir"....

JMHO,
'Saw 
5.783 :-), as usual..... SASE::SZABOWed Oct 24 1990 13:155
    'Saw, how's the rules in Rugby to interpret?  For instance, what's the
    ruling on the direction one must tape his ears (clockwise or
    counterclockwise?) and is there a limit as to the number of layers?
    
    Hawk
5.784A Simple Yet Complex and Highly Elegant SportCAM::WAYBeaten like a redheaded stepchild...Wed Oct 24 1990 14:3826
Actually, Hawk, there are no taping rules.  It pretty much depends
on whether you're left handed or right handed, how much your ears
hurt, and whether they've been bleeding lately ( a condition known
as "scrum-ear"....)

The rules of rugby are for the most part pretty simple to understand,
although like any sport there are finer points and interpretations
which can get complex.

There's no substition except for injury (only 4 allowed per game,
then you're playing down a man), the action hardly ever stops,
players are normally numbered according to position (at least in
Test matches anyway) and once you understand a few simple strategic
ploys (not nearly as many as you need for football) you can sit
down and watch and enjoy the game.

There's an elegance to the flow of the game as it progresses, and
the longer you watch the sport, the more you appreciate it.  The
expression "Rugby - Elegant Violence" isn't just something someone
made up.  It's pretty much right on....

Once I've got a couple of videotapes on hand, anyone is welcome
to come over to the house some Sunday afternoon, and suck
back some brews and watch some rugby....

fw
5.785Always practice safe scrumming! Cover those ears!SASE::SZABOWed Oct 24 1990 14:566
    > "Rugby - Elegant Violence"
    
    Reminds me of the /Don Elegant Workout video......
    
    Hawk
    
5.786SHIRE::FINEUC1What the heck is a Pepere?Thu Oct 25 1990 04:5511
  'Saw

Rugby would be great if it was only easy to understand when/why/what makes a
dead ball - i.e. end of a play, which is then followed by a scrum or a throw
in (or whatever it's called).   When watching it I also miss a forward pass
from time to time, but that's no big deal.

Otherwise, it's great to watch - especially those drop-kicks which are
obsolete in football now.

rick ellis
5.787CAM::WAYBeaten like a redheaded stepchild...Thu Oct 25 1990 09:1932
>Rugby would be great if it was only easy to understand when/why/what makes a
>dead ball - i.e. end of a play, which is then followed by a scrum or a throw
>in (or whatever it's called).   When watching it I also miss a forward pass
>from time to time, but that's no big deal.

Throw-in :== Line Out

Well, Rick, I'm no expert yet (Mac is, but he's not around) but while there
are a bunch of things that can stop play, there's a few common ones.

A knock-on:  when the ball goes forward off the hands or arms.  Drop a
             kick reception forward and it's a knock on too.

offsides:    Offsides happens when you are ahead of the ball or the
             last man to play the ball.  In rucks and mauls, you cannot
	     be behind a line drawn through the last foot of your
	     opponents (this prevents running around to the back of a
 	     maul and trying for the ball.)

reaching:    If a ruck has formed (man down, ball loose, team rucking over)
             a defender can't reach over to pick up the ball.

Play starts with a scrum, or sometimes a penalty....

>Otherwise, it's great to watch - especially those drop-kicks which are
>obsolete in football now.

We won our game with a drop-kick goal last Saturday!

fw

PS Probably should take this over to 6.*
5.788good ideaCNTROL::CHILDSNever, hear surf music again...Thu Nov 01 1990 11:358
 For those of you who didn't get today's National this quote from Rusty Hilger
 who was just signed on as a QB for the Colts:

 " My mom is making out my last will and testament now. I'll sign it, send it
 back and here we go."

 mike
5.7896984::MACNEALMac's Back in Mass.Wed Nov 07 1990 13:561
    re .788:  Rusty and Eric should get along just fine.
5.790CAM::WAYI ain't got time to bleedMon Nov 12 1990 14:2119
A minor nit I have with ESPN's broadcast....


Will someone please show Joe Theisman a tape of a rugby game?
This guy has said several times (in various broadcasts I've heard
him do) that a pileup of players resembles a scrum in rugby.

He did it again last night after Montana's QB sneak....

A scrum *never* looks like that, even when it collapses.  Rucks
do, if they collapse sometimes, but not scrums....  Scrums are
very symmetrical and the players are clearly discernable....

This analogy always bugged me before I started playing, but now
it bugs me even more....


Guess I'm just in a pissy mood today,
'Saw
5.791EDIT::CRITZLeMond Wins '86,'89,'90 TdFMon Nov 12 1990 15:348
    	Saw,
    
    	FWIW, why not send a letter to Theisman C/O ESPN.
    
    	It'll alleviate you tension over this and educate
    	the man.
    
    	Scott
5.792CAM::WAYI ain't got time to bleedMon Nov 12 1990 16:299
Gee Scott.  I never thought of that.  (Color me dumb!)

Actually, it might help.  I mean, very few people realize that
while rugby might look like absolute mayhem on the field,
there really is a purpose to everything that's going on.

I'll give this a try and see what happens.

'Saw
5.793SANDS::CRITZLeMond Wins '86,'89,'90 TdFMon Nov 12 1990 18:0514
    	Saw,
    
    	Back in 1989, a coupla months before the Tour de France,
    	I got the wild idea to send a letter to ABC and give them
    	some idea of what the noters in the CYCLING notesfile wanted
    	to see.
    
    	I don't know if it did any good, but we had a good time getting
    	all our good ideas out and onto paper. ABC's coverage was
    	better this year.
    
    	Maybe the letter helped.
    
    	Scott
5.794Pretty boy JoeCAM::MAZURIt ain't the meat, it's the lotion.Mon Nov 12 1990 18:254
    Hey Frank,
    
    I heard Joe T. on Sunday Night.  I think he said, "scruff" instead of
    scrum.  Dahhh.
5.795Jeez, just threw an "S"...should be signed 'SawCAM::WAYI ain't got time to bleedTue Nov 13 1990 11:0610
No, he was talking about rugby.....


And I think I will send that letter.  I don't know why I didn't
think of it myself.  After all, I'm sure ESPN is interested in
what the viewers think....

thanks for the idea,
'aw

5.796HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BOGUSS::ERICKSONWed Nov 14 1990 15:566
    Does anybody know the name of NFL notesfile? My notes were deleted
    and I don't remember that particular one.
    Thanks in advance.
             
    Blair the big 
    9er fan!!
5.797 Im back!!!BOGUSS::ERICKSONWed Nov 14 1990 16:217
    Rick,
    Thanks for the info on the nfl notesfile. I'm back in and ready
    to start more trouble!!!! 
    
    Blair.
    
    
5.798WLAF (not a radio station, but might as well be)SHALOT::MEDVIDtry me on, I'm very youThu Nov 15 1990 12:0615
    Well, pro football is coming to the Carolinas.  Along with Birmingham,
    New York, Orlando, Sacremento, San Atonio, and Montreal, the Carolinas
    were awarded a WLAF team yesterday.
    
    It's a pretty safe bet the team will not be located in Charlotte
    because:
    
    	- they want to preserve the Charlotte market for NFL expansion
    	- the existing stadiums in Raleigh and Columbia are twice the size
    	  of Charlotte Memorial Stadium
    
    Boy, I can't wait for that Carolina/Barcelona rivalry to begin.
    
    	--dan'l
    
5.799DEXTER is a ???OURGNG::RIGGENBurley from bikingTue Nov 20 1990 15:401
Who picked up Manley off the waiver wire today ???
5.800PhoenixMAXWEL::MACNEALMac's Back in Mass.Tue Nov 20 1990 16:494
5.801one of his old coachesUPWARD::HEISERTue Nov 20 1990 16:524
    Bugel had been saying for about the last week that he was VERY
    interested in him.
    
    Mike
5.802ROCK::GRONOWSKIthe dream is always the same...Tue Nov 20 1990 17:214
    
    Why Cleveland didn't pick him up and trade him to one of the teams
    that wanted him... I don't know...  makes no sense to me.
    
5.803MAXWEL::MACNEALMac's Back in Mass.Tue Nov 20 1990 17:233
    Paul, I don't think Cleveland had the chance.  Players must pass
    through waivers from the worst team up.  The Pats had first shot at him
    followed by the Cardinals. 
5.8041-11 woulda clinched it !EARRTH::BROOKSDetroit - no place for wimps !Tue Nov 20 1990 17:262
    If only Manley had come off waivers in another two weeks ... then
    Cleveland would have had the first chance at him ... HAHAHAHAHAA !!!!!
5.805ELMAGO::CGRIEGOTrust Jesus Tue Nov 20 1990 18:207
    Manley's football experience should help a relatively young Phoenix
    team, and provide some leadership. It's his off the field activities
    that might not be the greatest example to learn from, although
    hopefully he has sincerely put it all behind him. Which may not
    be as easy to do as to say.
    
    Carlos
5.806GRANPA::DFAUSTGo for 1000% moreTue Nov 20 1990 18:289
    re: a few back
    
    Another good reason that Cleveland didn't pick him up and then trade
    him is that the trading deadline was about a month ago. If he could
    have been traded, I feel pretty confident that the Redskins would have
    done just that.
    
    Dennis Faust
    
5.807ROCK::GRONOWSKIthe dream is always the same...Tue Nov 20 1990 19:498
    
    re: .803
    
    From the worst team up... Cleveland is tied for the 2nd worst record
    with the Cardinals, both at 2-8.  That is how they got Marcus Cotton.
    Both teams claimed him (the browns and the cards), and the Browns
    won a coin toss.  Is it official that Phoenix claimed him?
    
5.808exitKIDVAX::MBROOKSWed Nov 21 1990 11:426
    Accouring to the Natinal Sports Daily Phoenix has untill today to
    decide weather they want him or not.  Dont know why he went to phonix
    instead of Cleveland but as it sits now phoenix has him.  As far as
    his off field problems the guy has been clean for a year.  Id say hes
    over his problems.
    								Mike
5.809MPP6::CHILDSYou talking to me?Wed Nov 21 1990 11:4911
 Wrong Mike, Dexter unfortunately will have to battle his problem for the
 rest of his life. Substance abuse problems can be controled with proper
 maintance but they never ever go away. The fact that he has been cleam for
 year and is in a maintance program is great and definatley has earned him
 another chance but don't be fooled into thinking he's over his problem.
 It's a struggle he fights everyday....

 I wish him all the best...

 mike
5.810You said it all, Mikey...CRBOSS::DERRYGo Blue Devils!Wed Nov 21 1990 11:525
> It's a struggle he fights everyday....
  
  Ain't that the truth.


5.811Manley will be around 4-5 seasonsKIDVAX::MBROOKSWed Nov 21 1990 12:266
    Id Have to think that If you can stay healthy and drug free for a year
    then with a little mental strength you can stay drug free for every.
    All he has to do is want it bad enough...I think he will be a big
    help and stay clean and have about 4 or 5 good season left....
    
    								Mike
5.812Good luck DexterEARRTH::BROOKSDetroit - no place for wimps !Wed Nov 21 1990 13:0520
    re .811

    First, Manley went to the Cards because the head coach is Joe Bugel,
    who is a former assistant in Washington, and a big supporter of Manley.

    Secondly, it is easier to stay clean when there are no distractions,
    you're being monitored, et al. Manley knew he had to stay clean to get
    a second chance. 

    Now you're on the road, people aren't looking over your shoulder as
    much, and more importantly, your "friends" come looking for you. The
    ones who say, "Come on, let's have a few drinks and party !" God knows
    how many players have been nailed by that.

    The high-profile, high-pressure world of pro sports is NOT the best
    place for a recovering addict - many rehab specialists will tell you it
    is the worst place to be.  I hope Dexter has the strength, support, and 
    self-esteem to stay clean. He'll need all three.

    DrM
5.81316 years of cigarette addiction.......SASE::SZABOThe Beer HunterWed Nov 21 1990 13:248
    >struggle every day.....
    
    When I finally stopped smoking, I had to take the "every day" attitude,
    and I still struggle with it every day.  Today happens to be my 325th
    totally smoke-free day in a row, and I'm amazed that I'm able to say
    that.  Now, there's no way I'm going to break this kind of a streak!
    
    Hawk
5.814REFINE::ASHEB-b-b-baby, don't forget my lipsyncWed Nov 21 1990 13:266
    >Now you're on the road, people aren't looking over your shoulder as
    >much, and more importantly, your "friends" come looking for you. The
    >ones who say, "Come on, let's have a few drinks and party !" God knows
    >how many players have been nailed by that.
    
    Ask Bob Probert about that one...
5.815Who does the 3rd WC team play?SHALOT::MEDVIDIf I could be God tonight...Mon Nov 26 1990 13:198
    Would someone please explain or point me to the note explaining how
    they are going to work in a third wildcard team into each conference
    playoff.
    
    Does one of the division winners play a wildcard team the first week of
    the playoffs?
    
    	--dan'l
5.817CSC32::P_PAPACEKMon Nov 26 1990 13:3416
        
    The top two wild card teams play each other.    The 3rd wild card team will
    play the divisional champ with the worst record.  Today, that would mean 
    either the Packers or Redskins (both 6-5)? against the Bears (9-2).   
    
    The winners of each game would play one of the two division champs (SF
    or Giants).   The winners of theses games meet for the conference 
    championship.
    
    While we are on this topic, does anyone have the tie-breakers for wild
    card teams handy, ie; div record, conf record, head to head play etc. 
    With 3 teams now eligible, have the rules changed from last year.  
    
    Pat
      
    
5.818Some tidbits on the NFL situation.STARVU::MACGREGORThree time GutterBall champion!!Mon Nov 26 1990 14:53128
Order (as I remember it):

	Head to Head
	Division Record
	Conference Record
	Common Foes
	...
	...
	Points Scored
	Points Allowed


AFC
	Division Winners:
	----------------
	Buffalo		If they lose tonight Miami wins due to Head to Head 
			30-7 win for Miami
	Cincinnatti	Win division due to Head to Head 27-3 win over Pitts.
			if Houston loses tonight, otherwise... Houston because
			each have beaten one of the other two, Pittsburgh 
			drops out due to a 1-2 Division Record versus 2-1 for
			each of Cincinnatti and Houston.  Houston will have 
			a 5-2 Conference versus Cincinnatti at 5-3.
	Kansas City	Win division due to winning both Head to Heads with
			the Raiders

	Wildcards:
        ---------
	Miami		or Buffalo depending on tonights game
	Raiders		Best record of the rest.
	Cincinnatti     if Houston wins tonight, Pittsburgh if Houston loses
			tonight, due to the Head to Head 27-3.

	Outsiders:
	---------
	Houston		if they lose.
	Pittsburgh	If Houston wins tonight.
	Indianapolis	Lost to Houston beat Cincinatti
	Seattle		Lost to Raiders twice, split with Kansas City
	San Diego	Needs a miracle, lost to Cincinnatti, Houston, 
			Pittsburgh, Raiders, Kansas City

NFC
	Division Winners:
	----------------
	Giants          Sure is nice
                                     
	Chicago                      to not have to

	San Fransisco                               compute this section. 8^)

	Wildcards:
	---------                                       
	Philadelphia	Best record of the rest.
	Green Bay	Host wild card game against Washington.  Both are .500
			in their respectful division, but Green Bay is 5-4 .555
			in the conference and Washington is 6-5 .545
	Washington      No Head to Head game with Green Bay

	Outsiders:
	---------	
	Minnesota	Lost to both Philadelphia and Green Bay, but beat New
			Orleans.
	New Orleans	Lost to Washington and Minnesota.

REMAINING GAMES:    *'s mean against another possible playoff team in same
			conference

Buffalo		Miami		Cincinnatti	Pittsburgh	Houston
------		-----		----------	----------	-------
Philadelphia    Washington      *Pittsburgh     *Cincinnatti    *Seattle
*Indianapolis   Philadelphia    San Fransisco   New England     Cleveland
NY Giants	*Seattle	*LA Raiders	New Orleans	*Kansas City
*Miami		*Buffalo	*Houston	Cleveland	*Cincinnatti
Washington	*Indianapolis	Cleveland	*Houston	*Pittsburgh

Kansas City	Raiders		Seattle		Indianapolis
-----------	-------		-------		------------
New England     Denver          *Houston        Phoenix
Denver		Detroit		Green Bay	*Buffalo
*Houston	*Cincinnatti	*Miami		NY Jets
San Diego	Minnesota	Denver		Washington
Chicago		San Diego	Detroit		*Miami
                                                                              

	The current situation is:

	Buffalo		Win the rest and win the division outright
	Miami		Win the rest and win the division via Head to Head
	Cincinnatti	Win the rest and win the division outright        
	Pittsburgh	Win the rest and win the division outright
	Houston		Win the rest and win the division outright
	Kansas City	Win the rest and win the division via Head to Head
	LA Raiders	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Seattle		Needs help.
	Indianapolis	Needs help.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Giants		Chicago		San Francisco	New Orleans
------		-------		-------------	-----------
*San Francisco  Detroit         *Chicago        Dallas    
*Minnesota      *Washington     Cincinatti      LA Rams
Buffalo		Detroit		LA Rams		Pittsburgh
Phoenix		Tampa Bay	*New Orleans	*San Francisco
New England	Kansas City	*Minnesota	LA Rams

Philadelphia	Washington	Green Bay	Minnesota 
------------	----------	---------	---------
Buffalo         Miami		*Minnesota      *Green Bay    
Miami	   	*Chicago	Seattle		*NY Giants
*Green Bay	New England	*Philadelphia	Tampa Bay     
Dallas		Indianapolis	Detroit		LA Raiders
Phoenix		Buffalo		Denver		*San Francisco
                                   
	The current situation is:

	NY Giants	Win the rest and win the division outright
	Chicago		Win the rest and win the division outright
	San Francisco	Win the rest and win the division outright
	Philadelphia	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Green Bay	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Washington	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Minnesota	Win the rest and will guarentee at least a tie
			breaker with Green Bay, where both would have 
			split, have identical Division Records and 
			Conference Records.  15 point victory over Green
			Bay would clinch it I think 8^|
	New Orleans	Needs help                     
5.819CSC32::P_PAPACEKMon Nov 26 1990 15:047
    
    Thanks - now if you could only update this each week for the rest of the 
    season....
    
	
    Pat
    
5.820VAXWRK::NEEDLEMoney talks. Mine says &quot;Good-Bye!&quot;Mon Nov 26 1990 18:2270
NFL TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES TO DETERMINE POSTSEASON PLAYOFF QUALIFIERS

DIVISION TIES
If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same divi-
sion finish with identical best won-lost-tied percentage, the following steps
will be taken until a champion is determined.

TWO CLUBS
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, if applicable.
5. Best net points in division games.
6. Best net points in all games.
7. Strength of schedule.
8. Best net touchdowns in all games.
9. Coin toss.

THREE OR MORE CLUBS
Note: If one team wins multiple-team tiebreaker to advance to playoff round,
remaining teams revert to step 1 of applicable two-club format, i.e., either
in division tiebreaker or Wild Card tiebreaker. If two teams in a multiple-
team tie possess superior marks in a tiebreaking step, this pair of teams
revert to top of applicable two-club format to break tie. One team advances to
playoff round, while other returns to original gropu and step 1 of applicable
tiebreaker).
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
5. Best net points in division games.
6. Best net points in all games.
7. Strength of schedule.
8. Best net touchdowns in all games.
9. Coin toss.


WILD-CARD TIES
If necessary to break ties to determine the three wild-card clubs from each
conference, the following steps will be taken:
1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tiebreaker.
2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps:

TWO CLUBS
1. Head-to-head, if applicable.
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
4. Best average net points in conference games.
5. Best net points in all games.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best net touchdowns in all games.
8. Coin toss.

THREE OR MORE CLUBS
Note: If one team wins multiple-team tiebreaker to advance to playoff round,
remaining teams revert to step 1 of applicable two-club format, i.e., either
in division tiebreaker or Wild Card tiebreaker. If two teams in a multiple-
team tie possess superior marks in a tiebreaking step, this pair of teams
revert to top of applicable two-club format to break tie. One team advances to
playoff round, while other returns to original gropu and step 1 of applicable
tiebreaker).
1. Head-to-head sweep (applicable only if one club has defeated each of the
others, or if one club has lost to each of the others).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
4. Best average net points in conference games.
5. Best net points in all games.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best net touchdowns in all games.
8. Coin toss.
5.821PFSVAX::JACOBSports.note GetTogether '90, 12-8-90Tue Nov 27 1990 18:1112
    re.813  Hawk
    Keep at it, I quit July 1 1979 after 11 years on the cigs.  Was smoking
    between 2.5 and 4 packs a day and just said f##k it, and quit cold turkey.
    
    As per the NFL this week, a little tidbit of info nobodies put in here
    yet and this and a half a buck will get you a cup of coffee, but:
    
    All 6 teams that led their respective divisions as of Sunday morning
    were losers this weekend.  How often do you see that happen???????
    
    JaKe
    
5.822REFINE::ASHEb-b-b-baby... don't forget my lipsyncFri Nov 30 1990 12:133
    Anyone have an injury list online?  What's Johnny Johnson's status?
    
    -Walt
5.823UPWARD::HEISERFri Nov 30 1990 12:556
>    Anyone have an injury list online?  What's Johnny Johnson's status?
    
    Walt, he was on the TV news Wednesday night.  He's been practicing and
    says he wants to play.  Don't know what the coaches think though.
    
    Mike
5.824REFINE::ASHEb-b-b-baby... don't forget my lipsyncFri Nov 30 1990 13:005
    Yeah, he said that last week too... and he didn't play....
    Oh, well, looks like we might have to start Herschel and Cleveland
    Gary this week....
    
    -Walt
5.825doubtfulHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Nov 30 1990 13:474
Johnny Johnson is officially listed now as doubtful. That status can be
changed up through noon tomorrow, I believe. John Hendry would know.

TTom
5.826FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Fri Nov 30 1990 14:1319
    The status of probably, doubtful, questionable and out are supposed to
    be reported accurately because it theoretically prevents one gambler
    from getting an edge over another due to having inside information. 
    That is, it helps to remove the temptation for a club employee to
    provide "inside information."  
    
    Out means out.  Probable means the player is not 100% healthy but is
    likely to play.  Questionable means the player is hurt but his playing
    status is 50/50.  Doubtful means the player is hurt and is unlikely to
    play.
    
    Because Johnson is listed as doubtful now, it doesn't mean he can't
    play.  He can even be doubtful up until game time and still play.
    
    TTom, what you're probably referring to are the players who are put on
    inactive.  The team has up until an hour before game time to make that
    official, I believe.
    
    John
5.827can be changedHBAHBA::HAASBig Smile at the DrivethroughFri Nov 30 1990 15:2011
Thanks for the info, John.

I understood that there was a deadline to declare the official injury
status, over and above whatever they have to do about inactive players. I
guess it sounds like that player's injury status can be changed - upgrade
or downgraded - up to kick off.

I know when I played in Fantasy leagues, this was a major pain in
guessing who to start.

TTom
5.828Current standings and tie breaker rules!!STARVU::MACGREGORThree time GutterBall champion!!Mon Dec 03 1990 11:52178
AFC
	Division Winners:
	----------------
	Buffalo		10-2 Win division outright.
	Cincinnatti	 7-5 Win division outright.
	Kansas City	 8-4 Win division due to winning both Head to Heads 
			with the Raiders

	Wildcards:
        ---------
	Miami		9-3 gets to be host for wildcard game against...
	Raiders		8-4, but Raiders hold Head to Head advantage in case
			of a tie, due to MN victory.
	Seattle		6-6.  Houston lost to both of the other 6-6 teams, so
			they are out.  Pittsburgh holds a 4-5 Conference
			Record, while Seattle has a 6-4 Conference Record.

	Outsiders:
	---------
	Pittsburgh	6-6, beat Houston 20-9.  Lost to Raiders, Miami,
			and Cincinnatti twice.
	Houston		6-6, lost to Seattle 13-10 and Pittsburgh 20-9
	San Diego	6-7, needs a miracle, lost to Cincinnatti, Houston, 
			Pittsburgh, Raiders, and Kansas City

NFC
	Division Winners:
	----------------
	Giants          10-1, Wins division outright.
	Chicago         10-2, Clinched division.
	San Fransisco   10-1, Clinched division.

	Wildcards:
	---------                                       
	Philadelphia	7-5, Host wild card game against Washington due to
			a 6-3 Conference record versus...
	Washington      7-5, who has a 6-5 Conference record.  Split series
			with Philadelphia 13-7 :: 14-28
	Green Bay	6-6, Gets the nod over Minnesota due to a 5-5 
			Conference Record versus Minnesotas' 4-5 Conference
			Record.

	Outsiders:
	---------	
	Minnesota	6-6, Best record of the rest and on a roll.

REMAINING GAMES:    *'s mean against another possible playoff team in same
			conference

Buffalo		Miami		Cincinnatti	Pittsburgh	
------		-----		----------	----------	
Indianapolis    Philadelphia    San Fransisco   New England     
NY Giants	*Seattle	*LA Raiders	New Orleans	
*Miami		*Buffalo	*Houston	Cleveland	
Washington	Indianapolis	Cleveland	*Houston	

Kansas City	Raiders		Seattle		Houston
-----------	-------		-------		-------
Denver		Detroit		Green Bay	Cleveland
*Houston	*Cincinnatti	*Miami		*Kansas City
San Diego	Minnesota	Denver		*Cincinnatti
Chicago		San Diego	Detroit		*Pittsburgh
                                                                              

	The current situation is:

	Buffalo		Win the rest and win the division outright.
	Cincinnatti	Win the rest and win the division outright.        
	Kansas City	Win the rest and win the division via Head to Head.
	Miami		Win the rest and win the division via Head to Head.
	Houston		Win the rest and win the division via Head to Head.
	LA Raiders	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Seattle		Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Pittsburgh	Needs some help.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Giants		Chicago		San Francisco	
------		-------		-------------	
*Minnesota      *Washington     Cincinatti      
Buffalo		Detroit		LA Rams		
Phoenix		Tampa Bay	New Orleans	
New England	Kansas City	*Minnesota	

Philadelphia	Washington	Green Bay	Minnesota 
------------	----------	---------	---------
Miami	   	*Chicago	Seattle		*NY Giants
*Green Bay	New England	*Philadelphia	Tampa Bay     
Dallas		Indianapolis	Detroit		LA Raiders
Phoenix		Buffalo		Denver		*San Francisco
                                   
	The current situation is:

	Chicago		Clinched the division.
	San Francisco	Clinched the division.
	NY Giants	Win one more and win the division outright.
	Philadelphia	Win the rest and host wild card game.
	Washington	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Green Bay	Win the rest and will guarentee at least a tie.
	Minnesota	Win the rest and will guarentee at least a tie.
			breaker with Green Bay, where both would have 
			split, have identical Division Records and 
			Conference Records.  Comes down to common foes.



NFL TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES TO DETERMINE POSTSEASON PLAYOFF QUALIFIERS

DIVISION TIES
If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same divi-
sion finish with identical best won-lost-tied percentage, the following steps
will be taken until a champion is determined.

TWO CLUBS
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, if applicable.
5. Best net points in division games.
6. Best net points in all games.
7. Strength of schedule.
8. Best net touchdowns in all games.
9. Coin toss.

THREE OR MORE CLUBS
Note: If one team wins multiple-team tiebreaker to advance to playoff round,
remaining teams revert to step 1 of applicable two-club format, i.e., either
in division tiebreaker or Wild Card tiebreaker. If two teams in a multiple-
team tie possess superior marks in a tiebreaking step, this pair of teams
revert to top of applicable two-club format to break tie. One team advances to
playoff round, while other returns to original gropu and step 1 of applicable
tiebreaker).
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
5. Best net points in division games.
6. Best net points in all games.
7. Strength of schedule.
8. Best net touchdowns in all games.
9. Coin toss.


WILD-CARD TIES
If necessary to break ties to determine the three wild-card clubs from each
conference, the following steps will be taken:
1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tiebreaker.
2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps:

TWO CLUBS
1. Head-to-head, if applicable.
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
4. Best average net points in conference games.
5. Best net points in all games.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best net touchdowns in all games.
8. Coin toss.

THREE OR MORE CLUBS
Note: If one team wins multiple-team tiebreaker to advance to playoff round,
remaining teams revert to step 1 of applicable two-club format, i.e., either
in division tiebreaker or Wild Card tiebreaker. If two teams in a multiple-
team tie possess superior marks in a tiebreaking step, this pair of teams
revert to top of applicable two-club format to break tie. One team advances to
playoff round, while other returns to original gropu and step 1 of applicable
tiebreaker).
1. Head-to-head sweep (applicable only if one club has defeated each of the
others, or if one club has lost to each of the others).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
4. Best average net points in conference games.
5. Best net points in all games.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best net touchdowns in all games.
8. Coin toss.



5.829Just a wordCOMET::HANCOCKSMon Dec 03 1990 17:0113
    A few back::
    
    	Manely has come quite a ways for a man being on a drung addicition.
    On the news he has even started talking to children about what drugs
    can do to you.  If anyone thinks that he'll start his drugs again.
    maybe surprised that its harder to start back up after your career
    almost went down the tubes.  Whoever picks him up will have a pretty
    tough defense.  
    
    See ya
    
    The Bart....
    
5.830sex, drungs, and rock'n rollSHIRE::FINEUC1Tue Dec 04 1990 05:1912
re -.1
    
>>    	Manely has come quite a ways for a man being on a drung addicition.
                                                          ^^^^^
Bart,

You've definitely got a future in here.

;^{)
  
rick ellis  

5.831CAM::WAYYour house'll smell like Hurl WhiffTue Dec 04 1990 10:5315
5.832SASE::SZABOThe Beer HunterTue Dec 04 1990 11:098
    
    Drung = drug + hung?
    
    Are sufferers of WMD automatically exluded from being classified as a
    drung?
    
    Hawk
    
5.833my $ .02 worthCELTIK::JACOBHeya-Heya-Heya-HiyoTue Dec 04 1990 11:2311
>>               <<< Note 5.832 by SASE::SZABO "The Beer Hunter" >>>

    
>>    Drung = drug + hung?
    
    Hey Hawk, I think Drung is something like 
    
       Drug + Dung=Drung
    
    JaKe
    
5.834Wanted: Good Coach not looking for securitySHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterTue Dec 04 1990 13:129
    Tampa Bay fired Ray Perkins yesterday.
    
    I think Culverhouse may have one step ahead of Modell in the "I have no
    patience; I want to win now" style of ownership.
    
    They'll never build a winner with these types of coaching and player
    transitions.  They're biggest mistake was dumping Steve Young.
    
    	--dan'l
5.835Bring back McKay ???SHALOT::HUNTShoeless Joe Belongs In CooperstownTue Dec 04 1990 13:378
    Of course, Ray Perkins didn't exactly win the award for most brilliant
    coaching move of the year by benching his ultra-sensitive fledgling
    young quarterback for two weeks, either.
    
    Just a couple of days ago, Perkins said he wasn't making any plans to
    quit.   Nice try, Ray.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.836Long time if he was in ClevescumCELTIK::JACOBHeya-Heya-Heya-HiyoTue Dec 04 1990 14:118
    Hey Dan'l--
    
    But wasn't Perkins at Tampax Bay for 3 years, which would be like 20
    years for a Clevescum coach.
    
    
    JaKe
    
5.837GRANPA::DFAUSTGo for 1000% moreTue Dec 04 1990 19:5314
    About five weeks ago Culverhouse said that Perkins would still be his
    coach if he lost the rest of his games this season. Perkins goes on a
    four game loosing streak. Then when Perkins wins won he gets fired. So
    I guess you can take what Culverhouse said literally.
    
    On another note, Tom Brookshier (formerly of CBS, now does radio in
    Philadelphia) said that Perkins would be fired this week on Monday
    morning. When queried as to why he thought that, Tommy said that
    Culverhouse once told him that lossing games don't get coaches fired,
    empty seats do, in Hugh's opinion. When he saw Sunday's attendance in
    Tampa Bay, he knew Perkins was history.
    
    Dennis
    
5.838CNTROL::CHILDSU can be happy, if U have mind tooWed Dec 05 1990 10:037
 Heard on the radio this morning that Culverhouse has offered Bill Walsh
 a blank check to take over the team. This guy must want to win bad. I 
 sure hope Bill takes it so we can get him out of the booth. Bucs do have
 some good young talent so I think Bill just might be tempted...

mike
5.839timing is everythingMUSKIE::SHAUGHNESSYa Worthy pregame sandwich, sir?Fri Dec 07 1990 16:5319
    >I sure hope Bill takes it so we can get him out of the booth.
    
    R U saying that Walsh is a poor announcer?  If you are I disagree in
    the strongest terms.  Walsh, whatever you think of his personality,
    is a revelation behind the microphone.  Specifically, has anybody else
    noticed how he much he emphasizes timing?  "He passed that much too 
    late, and therefore ran out of sideline and allowed the safety time to
    recover and get back over," or "that pass should've gone out a beat later,
    just before the cut was made so that the DB couldn't tell where the route
    was going."
    
    Walsh knows the game cold.  Hearing him has finally let me understand
    what it is that the 49ers do on offense that distinguishes it so: The
    whole Walsh system is built on timing.
    
    No wonder the other teams haven't emulated the 49ers' huge success. 
    What could be harder to coach than perfect timing?
    
    MrT
5.840Good coach != good announcerDECWET::METZGERIt is happening again...Fri Dec 07 1990 17:0416
Walsh is a POOR announcer. He seems to forget that he isn't the head coach of 
the 49ers any longer. He continually throw the phrase "when I was with the 49ers"
Or "the 49ers did this". It's gotten to the point where I yell at the tv whenever
I hear him utter those words.

he might know the game inside and out but that doesn't make him a good 
announcer. 

Every 15 seconds the word forty-niners seems to come out of his mouth....


Ugh,


Metz
5.841Walsh Sipped HARD in the boothCELTIK::JACOBWe all become forefathers, by and byFri Dec 07 1990 17:185
    
    
    
    JaKe
    
5.842his voice grates on me tooMPP6::CHILDSU can be happy, if U have mind tooFri Dec 07 1990 17:3010
I agree with you T, that his knowledge of the game is good and insights
are refreshing at times but the fact that he always refers to the Niners
and repeats questionable coaching moves over and over and over and over
and over again remove any shine from what good work he does do. Perhaps
if he didn't work with einberg who feed him so many questions that allude
to Walsh's former greatness he might be better and speak less of the Niners.

mike    

5.843When he really waxes eloquent, the topic is Broadway JoeHOTSHT::SCHNEIDER$80,000 + a Chevy BlazerFri Dec 07 1990 18:083
    But ya gotta love the fact that Walsh admires Namath as much as I do!
    
    Dan
5.844CSC32::J_HERNANDEZGreenpiece,WhatALeprechaunGetsFri Dec 07 1990 19:045
    I hate listening to "Joe Montana this, 49er's that" but I like
    listening to him cuz he has more depth than other football announcers.
    I can tell, cuz when my girlfriend would be over, the stuff he said
    would go right over her haid, whereas the ABC guys talk on a
    flag-football level.
5.845Hmm, things are getting wierd.STARVU::MACGREGORThree time GutterBall champion!!Mon Dec 10 1990 11:54181
AFC
	Division Winners:
	----------------
	Buffalo		11-2, Win division outright.
	Houston		 7-6, Win division due to Pittsburgh having 1-3 Division
			 Record, and Houston beating Cincinnatti in Head to Head
	Kansas City	 9-4, Win division due to winning both Head to Heads 
			 with the Raiders

	Wildcards:
        ---------
	Miami		10-3, gets to be host for wildcard game against...
	Raiders		 8-4, but Raiders hold Head to Head advantage in case
			 of a tie, due to MN victory.
	Cincinnatti	 7-6, Has a 6-3 Conference Record versus Seattles 6-4
			 and Pittsburghs' 5-5.

	Outsiders:
	---------
	Pittsburgh	7-6, beat Houston 20-9.  Lost to Raiders, Miami,
			and Cincinnatti twice. 
	Seattle		7-6, beat Cincinatti, Kansas City twice, San Diego,
			and Houston.  Lost to Raiders twice and San Diego.
	San Diego	6-7, needs a miracle, lost to Cincinnatti, Houston, 
			Pittsburgh, Raiders, and Kansas City

NFC
	Division Winners:
	----------------
	Giants          11-2, Clinched division.
	Chicago         10-3, Clinched division.
	San Fransisco   12-1, Clinched division.

	Wildcards:
	---------                                       
	Washington      8-5, Host wild card game against Philadelphia.
	Philadelphia	7-6, Gets the nod over the rest due to record.
	Green Bay	6-7, Has a 5-5 Conference Record, versus Dallas at
			5-6, Minnesota at 4-6 and New Orleans at 4-6.

	Outsiders:
	---------	                                                  
	Minnesota	6-7, beat New Oleans and Green Bay, lost to Philadelphia
			and Green Bay.
	Dallas		6-7, beat Washington and New Orleans, lost to 
			Washington and Philadelphia.
 	New Orleans	6-7, lost to Minnesota, Washington, and Dallas.

REMAINING GAMES:    *'s mean against another possible playoff team in same
			conference

Buffalo		Miami		Cincinnatti	Pittsburgh	
------		-----		----------	----------	
NY Giants	*Seattle	*LA Raiders	New Orleans	
*Miami		*Buffalo	*Houston	Cleveland	
Washington	Indianapolis	Cleveland	*Houston	

Kansas City	Raiders		Seattle		Houston
-----------	-------		-------		-------
*Houston	*Cincinnatti	*Miami		*Kansas City
San Diego	Minnesota	Denver	       	*Cincinnatti
Chicago		San Diego	Detroit		*Pittsburgh
                                                                              

	The current situation is:

	Buffalo		Win the rest and win the division outright.
	Cincinnatti	Win the rest and win the division outright.        
	Houston		Win the rest and win the division outright.
	Kansas City	Win the rest and win the division via Head to Head.
	Miami		Win the rest and win the division via Head to Head.
	LA Raiders	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Seattle		Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Pittsburgh	Win the rest, Cincinnatti loses one, they win the
			division outright.  If Cincinnati wins the rest and
			Seattle loses one, they get a wild card.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Giants		Chicago		San Francisco	Dallas
------		-------		-------------	------
Buffalo		Detroit		LA Rams		Phoenix
Phoenix		Tampa Bay	*New Orleans	*Philadelphia
New England	Kansas City	*Minnesota	Atlanta

Philadelphia	Washington	Green Bay	Minnesota	New Orleans
------------	----------	---------	---------	-----------
*Green Bay	New England	*Philadelphia	Tampa Bay	Pittsburgh
*Dallas		Indianapolis	Detroit		LA Raiders	*San Fransisco
Phoenix		Buffalo		Denver		*San Francisco	LA Rams
                                   
	The current situation is:

	Chicago		Clinched the division.
	San Francisco	Clinched the division.
	NY Giants	Clinched the division.
	Washington	Win the rest and host the wild card game.
	Philadelphia	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Green Bay	Win the rest and will guarentee a wild card.
	Dallas		Win the rest and Green Bay loses one, they get a wild
			card slot as long as Minnesota doesn't win all of their
			games, otherwise...
	Minnesota	gets the wild card slot because tie breakers will be
			tied all the way until points against conference foes,
			where Minnesota has scored more points.
	New Orleans	Win the rest and have Green Bay, Dallas, and Minnesota
			each lose at least one game.
                                                   

NFL TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES TO DETERMINE POSTSEASON PLAYOFF QUALIFIERS

DIVISION TIES
If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same divi-
sion finish with identical best won-lost-tied percentage, the following steps
will be taken until a champion is determined.

TWO CLUBS
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, if applicable.
5. Best net points in division games.
6. Best net points in all games.
7. Strength of schedule.
8. Best net touchdowns in all games.
9. Coin toss.

THREE OR MORE CLUBS
Note: If one team wins multiple-team tiebreaker to advance to playoff round,
remaining teams revert to step 1 of applicable two-club format, i.e., either
in division tiebreaker or Wild Card tiebreaker. If two teams in a multiple-
team tie possess superior marks in a tiebreaking step, this pair of teams
revert to top of applicable two-club format to break tie. One team advances to
playoff round, while other returns to original gropu and step 1 of applicable
tiebreaker).
1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within division.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within conference.
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
5. Best net points in division games.
6. Best net points in all games.
7. Strength of schedule.
8. Best net touchdowns in all games.
9. Coin toss.


WILD-CARD TIES
If necessary to break ties to determine the three wild-card clubs from each
conference, the following steps will be taken:
1. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tiebreaker.
2. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps:

TWO CLUBS
1. Head-to-head, if applicable.
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
4. Best average net points in conference games.
5. Best net points in all games.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best net touchdowns in all games.
8. Coin toss.

THREE OR MORE CLUBS
Note: If one team wins multiple-team tiebreaker to advance to playoff round,
remaining teams revert to step 1 of applicable two-club format, i.e., either
in division tiebreaker or Wild Card tiebreaker. If two teams in a multiple-
team tie possess superior marks in a tiebreaking step, this pair of teams
revert to top of applicable two-club format to break tie. One team advances to
playoff round, while other returns to original gropu and step 1 of applicable
tiebreaker).
1. Head-to-head sweep (applicable only if one club has defeated each of the
others, or if one club has lost to each of the others).
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.
4. Best average net points in conference games.
5. Best net points in all games.
6. Strength of schedule.
7. Best net touchdowns in all games.
8. Coin toss.



5.847Hoping for a dallas berthVLNVAX::MBROOKSMon Dec 10 1990 13:2810
    Wouldnt Dallas be first in line for Wildcard infront of minn (behind
    only gb).  Dallas has a 5-6 conferenc record and Minn has a 4-6 ????
    
    GB has a tough schedule ahead and no appearent QB (leader)  Dallas
    may still sneak in here, I think it will come down to the PHilly VS
    Dallas game........2 weeks should tell the picture although Im sure
    it will go into the last week of play before all the berths are in
    place.....I for one like the new playoff scheme, I division winner
    with a 14-2 record will now get a bye in the first week where as a
    division winner who squeaks in has to play an extra game........
5.848STARVU::MACGREGORThree time GutterBall champion!!Mon Dec 10 1990 14:246
    Yep, Dallas would indeed be in front of Minnesota.  Got temporarily
    confused by the fact that the 5th place teams (last year) play 14
    conference games and not 12 like the rest of the league, so I figured
    them to finish 6-6 each.
    
    The Wizard
5.849CAM::WAYA ruck is a scrum for 2Mon Dec 10 1990 15:0520
Well, for the very first time yesterday I heard a sportscaster
make a rugby reference in relation to a football game that was 
somewhat accurate.

I can't really remember if it was Greg Gumbal or if it was Chris Berman
on the NFL Prime Time show, but they were showing the final inty that
Phoenix made.   The sportscaster calls the runback and then says,
"And here's where the rugby game breaks out".

A series of laterals, which moved towards the sideline, and resembled
the series of passes the backs (scrum half to fly half to center) usually
make once the ball is out of a ruck or scrum, occured as the Phoenix
defense sought to keep advancing the ball.

(sigh) Out of such madness and chaos a shining moment of elegant
beauty appeared...

'Saw


5.850OURGNG::RIGGENBurley from bikingFri Dec 14 1990 14:394
Has anybody got a Injury report on Christian Okoye ?


FFL'er need to kill DiNz's Littleton Loonies. 
5.851exiBSS::G_MCINTOSHULTRIX NETWORKS, CSC/CSMon Dec 17 1990 12:544
    How many yards rushing did Thurman Thomas or the Bills get on 
    Saturday?
    
    Glenn
5.852REFINE::ASHEI want to sway atop the Empire St. BuildingMon Dec 17 1990 13:071
    Not enough to over take Butts...
5.853GOLF::KINGRMy mind is a terrible thing to use...Mon Dec 17 1990 13:343
    Thomas got 21 rushes for 60 yards and 4 passes for 65 yars.
    
    REK
5.854GOLF::KINGRMy mind is a terrible thing to use...Mon Dec 17 1990 13:343
    Bills 25 rushes for 65 yards...
    
    REK
5.855What goes around ... CSC32::GL_JOHNSONMommy, what's a Funkadelic?Mon Dec 17 1990 18:5324
    
    	Anyone else notice how the 'elite' teams of the '70s have 
    become competitive again.  The RAIDERS and Dolphins will be back in
    the playoffs for the first time since '85; the same will be said for
    Dallas should they win their two remaining games.  The Steelers are
    in a position to basically control their fate, and thus, should join
    the party also.  The Vikings certainly have the personnel to be among
    that list, but have done the massive el foldo for the season.
    
    	It's almost reminiscent of the old days, when the fledgling AFL
    was regarded as vastly inferior to the NFL.  Though the NFC has 
    dominated the last 6 SB's, the AFC has just as many 10+ victory teams
    this might be the year that one of them breaks the NFC stranglehold
    on the SB.  These last 2 weeks will show which of the top 4 AFC
    teams(KC, RAIDERS, Miami, Buffalo) has the best shot.
    
    RAIDERS         Kansas City      Miami             Buffalo 
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    @Minnesota      @San Diego       @Buffalo          Miami
    San Diego       @Chicago         Indianapolis      @Washington
    
    
    						 glen j.
                                                        
5.856BSS::JCOTANCHCU: Back-to-Back Big 8 ChampsMon Dec 17 1990 19:468
    
>    	Anyone else notice how the 'elite' teams of the '70s have 
>    become competitive again.  The RAIDERS and Dolphins will be back in
    
    Hey Glen, 'Dolphins' is the one that should be in all caps. :^)
    
    Joe
                                                            
5.857SASE::SZABOTue Dec 18 1990 11:3020
    Watching last night's game, I came remembered a question that I've been
    wondering about a long time now.  (John H. can answer this, I'm sure).
    
    Why is it that, when a running back/receiver/whoever with the ball
    lunges forward for that extra 2 yards, but the ref spots the ball at
    the point where his knee contacts the playing surface, but then, if the
    player breaks the plane of the goal line with the ball before his knee
    touches say the 1, it's a td?  Ok, the td part I understand, but case
    in point was last night in the 1st quarter, Rathman finishes a strong
    rush by lunging forward and raising the ball above his head for that
    extra yard.  His momentum forces his arm and the ball to touch the
    surface before his knee hits, a good 2 yards behind the ball.  Yet, the
    refs spotted the ball where his knee hit.  Were the ref's right in
    placing the ball 2 yards back where his knee went down?  I say no,
    since the ball went down before his knee, it should've been spotted
    where the ball went down.  So, what's the right call?
    
    IMHO, I think the ref's spot the ball back too far most of the time.
    
    Hawk
5.858FSOA::JHENDRYJohn Hendry, DTN 292-2170Tue Dec 18 1990 11:4311
    The TD call is obvious.  I have seen plays where a player has been in
    the end zone, caught the ball, was tackled but never got the ball in -
    no TD.  If the ball breaks the plane of the end zone prior to the knee
    being down, then it is a TD.
    
    I have to look at my rulebook to see what the ruling is on spotting the
    ball.  Intuitively, I would think if the ball hits the ground before a
    player's knee does, then the spot should be where the ball touches
    instead of where the knee touches - but I have to check to be sure.
    
    John
5.859DECXPS::TIMMONSI'm a Pepere!Tue Dec 18 1990 12:4313
    Good question, Hawk.  I've always wondered about that.  Some nights, I
    can't sleep because of that damn question.  I even joined the Navy
    because I couldn't find anyone in civilian life who could answer it for
    me so I thought I'd ask the fleet.  Not that you'd notice, but I've
    missed many a meal because I was so engrossed in this question that I
    didn't even feel the hunger pains.  I passed up two promotions when I
    realized that I didn't have time to do both a new job and also ponder
    this question.  Why, you even got John Hendry to where he has to check
    his rule book!
    
    Congrats, Hawk!
    
    Lee :*)
5.860Rollward.SASE::SZABOBraccae tuae aperiuntur!Tue Dec 18 1990 12:526
    Wise ass!  :-)
    
    Oh, and about missing many a meal, LeE, I'd think the opposite is a bit
    more accurate.......  :-)
    
    Hawk
5.861Credit the Chainsaw for my p_name!SASE::SZABOBraccae tuae aperiuntur!Tue Dec 18 1990 12:577
    And, btw lEe, my p_name applies to you.  I wouldn't leave my office if
    I were you, until I deciphered what the heck it meant.  I'll give you a
    clue- it's in Latin.........
    
    :-)
    
    Hawk
5.862QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Tue Dec 18 1990 13:0425
My guess... gleaned from mucho observation.

If the knee goes down and the player falls backwards - spot at the place
the knee went down.

If the knee goes down and the player falls forward - spot at the place
where the players chest is (line across the armpits). Unless he falls
forward across the goal line. It also depends on the speed of the play.
When most players go down, it's not in slow motion. They're usually
falling forward and the time between knee touch and the rest of the body
hitting the ground is very small. So it goes at the chest area, but when
I've seen situations where the knee is very obviously down first, and
then the player sorta lunges forward, they spot it at the place where
the knee went down.

Even if the ball is held out and touches first, it goes at the chest
area... the goal line is the only place where it is effective to hold
the ball out, because it's the only place where position of the ball
(plane of the goal) has any importance. All other circumstances depend
on the position of the body of the person with the ball.

This may not be how the rule books say it, but it's how the refs
interpret it, because I've noticed no deviations in many years.

Mike JN
5.863Exackly the way I see it, Mike JN. Congrat's!SASE::SZABOBraccae tuae aperiuntur!Tue Dec 18 1990 13:201
    
5.864QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Tue Dec 18 1990 13:5211
5.865You see them give credit for stretching for 1st downs, tooNAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Dec 18 1990 14:319
    
    The ball should always be spotted at the position of *the ball* no
    matter what caused the player to be ruled down-- his knee, body, arm,
    whatever.  It's the ball that counts.  If the refs moved the ball
    back to where the knee touched, they must not have gotten a good look,
    or thought the knee touched earlier than you did...
    
    glenn
    
5.866ACTING::MACGREGORThree time GutterBall champion!!Tue Dec 18 1990 16:3329
    Here is some useless information for the football nut.  Here is
    a list of teams that "mathematically" can make the playoffs.
    
    Buffalo
    Miami
    Indianapolis
    Pittsburgh
    Houston
    Cincinatti
    LA Raiders
    Kansas City
    Seattle
    
    NY Giants
    Washington
    Philadelphia
    Dallas
    Phoenix (I think)
    Chicago
    Tampa Bay
    Green Bay
    Minnesota
    Detroit (I think)
    San Fransisco
    New Orleans
    
    If that isn't parity, then there is no such thing.
    
    The Wizard
5.867QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Tue Dec 18 1990 16:3411
5.868Football is second hardest sport to make playoffs inVLNVAX::MBROOKSTue Dec 18 1990 16:5412
    -2,  Out of 28 teams in football as of this year 12 teams will make
    the playoffs, thats about 43%.  Compare this to basketball where 16
    of 27 teams make it (about 60%) and 16 out of 21 in hockey (76%) the
    only sport that its tougher to make the playoffs is Baseball, who I
    think has it to hard but thats just my oponion.  Still less than 1/2
    the teams make the playoffs and the wildcard teams as well as the 
    division winner with the least wins has to play an extra round.  I
    would say that football has the best and fairest playoff scheme to
    date.  I would like to see basketball cut it down to 4 teams but that
    will never happen.  Maybe with all the teams being added to sports
    over the next 5 years it wont be quite so bad...Unless they make even
    more teams eligable for the playoffs. (oh boy what a mess)...
5.869ACTING::MACGREGORThree time GutterBall champion!!Tue Dec 18 1990 16:588
    That's nice, but what that has to do with my reply about parity
    is beyond me.  I'll I was saying is that the NFL was successful
    in its goal of getting most of the teams into the hunt right up
    to the end (read parity).  Of course, if the current records were
    from last year you'd be looking at the NFC spots being clinched
    instead of 13 out of 14 teams "still in it."
    
    The Wizard
5.870"What goes arou..." I say they never leftELMAGO::CGRIEGOTrust Jesus Tue Dec 18 1990 17:5222
-
   > 	Anyone else notice how the 'elite' teams of the '70s have 
   > become competitive again.  The RAIDERS and Dolphins will be back in
   > the playoffs for the first time since '85; the same will be said for
   > Dallas should they win their two remaining games.  The Steelers are
   > in a position to basically control their fate, and thus, should join
   > the party also.  
    
     While it's true that none of these teams have won the SB in recent
    history (last time was the Raiders in '83), they have all been 
    competitive. Miami, Pittsburgh and the Raiders are still the three
    NFL teams with the best interconference records over the two decades.
    If Miami could translate its regular season success against NFC
    clubs into SB supremacy, the Dolphins would need more trophy cases.
    Nobody comes close to their amazing .818 success ratio (prior to this
    season) (54-12) against the NFC. The Raiders are 47-23-1 in that
    span, the Steelers 44-24, while Dallas is the NFC leader in
    interconference play at 42-25.
          
    
    His kinglyness,
    Carlos
5.871Moreover, why do players stretch for the first if not allowed?NAC::G_WAUGAMANTue Dec 18 1990 19:1314
    
> Gotta disagree. I almost NEVER see credit given for stretching the
> arm/ball out for the first down. It is an extreme rarity, and I would
> have to call it a blown call.
    
    Maybe they don't always give the player his full forward advancement of
    the ball (because of the reasons given: the ref is concentrating more 
    on the body to see when the player is down, the play is moving at full 
    speed, etc.), but it wouldn't be a blown call.  Why do you assume there 
    is a different set of rules for the end zone than any other place on
    the field?
    
    glenn
     
5.872QUASER::JOHNSTONLegitimateSportingPurpose?E.S.A.D.!Wed Dec 19 1990 13:1124
5.873*Forward* progress is the difference here...NAC::G_WAUGAMANWed Dec 19 1990 15:1830
> If a player stands on the 1 foot mark of the DEFENSIVE end zone, and
> stretches the ball backwards over the Goal, it is not a safety. Depends
> where HE is.

    Well, this much is obvious.  The rule we're discussing is ball
    placement based on *forward* progress.  This example is backward
    progress, I guess, something that doesn't exist (unless you count
    stepping out of the back of the end zone for an automatic safety,
    regardless of the position of the ball).
    
> Similarly, if a player stands inbounds, and stretches the ball out of
> bounds, the ball is INbounds. depends where HE is.

    Again, that's not forward progress.  The ball broke the plane of the
    sideline, an undefined event in the rules.  If a player stretching 
    for the end zone hooks the ball around the end flag and then steps out 
    of bounds at the one, it's a touchdown because the position of the 
    ball is of importance, not the position where he stepped out.  
    
> Also first downs. The position of the ball is not the deciding factor,
> it is the position of the player.
    
    I guess we need a rule book to clarify for certain.  I always thought
    that it was the ball that determines the extent of a player's forward 
    progress, with the plane of the end zone just being a particular 
    extension of that rule, not an exception.
    
    glenn
     
5.874HelpCELTIK::JACOBBut I don't have $10,000!!!Thu Dec 20 1990 19:037
    Does anybody have a listing they could post in here of the complete
    AFC-NFC Pro Bowl selectees?????????????
    
    Thanks
    
    JaKe
    
5.875AFC Pro Bowl OffenseSHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterFri Dec 21 1990 09:2712
    
    QB: Warren Moon, Houston; Jim Kelly, Buffalo
    RB: Thurman Thomas, Buffalo; Marion Butts, SD; Bobby Humphrey, Denver;
    Bo Jackson, Raiders
    WR: Andre Reed, Buffalo; Anthony Millder, SD; Drew Hill, Houston,
    Ernest Givens, Houston
    TE: Rodney Holman, Cinc; Ferrell Edmunds, Miami;
    G: Bruce Mathews, Houston; Mike Munchak, Houston; Steve Wisniewski,
    Raiders
    T: Anthony Munoz, Cinc; Bruce Armstrong, NE; Richmond Webb, Miami
    C: Kent Hull, Buffalo; Don Mosebar, Raiders
    
5.876NFC Pro Bowl OffenseSHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterFri Dec 21 1990 09:3311
    
    QB: Joe Montana, SF; Randall Cunningham, Phil
    RB: Barry Sanders, Detroit; Neal Anderson, Chicago; Earnest Byner,
    Washington (bet Cleveland's happy about that); Johnny Johnson, Phoenix
    WR: Jerry Rice, SF; Andre Rison, Atlanta; Sterling Sharpe, GB; Gary
    Clark, Washington
    TE: Keith Jackson, Phil; Steve Jordan, Minn
    G: Randall McDaniel, Minn; Mark Bortz, Chicago; Guy McIntyre, SF
    T: Jim Lachey, Washington; Jackie Slater, Rams; Lomas Brown, Detroit
    C: Jay Hilgenberg, Chicago; Bart Oates, Giants
    
5.877AFC Pro Bowl DefenseSHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterFri Dec 21 1990 09:399
    
    DE: Bruce Smith, Buffalo; Greg Townsend, Raiders; Jeff Cross, Miami
    DL: Michael Dean Perry, Cleveland; Ray Childress, Houston
    OLB: Derrick Thomas, KC; Leslie O'Neal, SD; Cornelius Bennett, Buffalo
    ILB: John Offerdahl, Miami; Shane Conlan, Buffalo; David Little, Pitt
    CB: Rod Woodson, Pitt; Albert Lewis, KC; Kevin Ross, KC (could have
    fooled me after the game against Houston)
    S: Steve Atwater, Denver; David Fulcher, Cinc; Dennis Smith, Denver
    
5.878NFC Pro Bowl DefenseSHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterFri Dec 21 1990 09:4410
    
    DE: Reggie White, Phil; Chris Doleman, Minn; Richard Dent, Chicago
    DL: Jerome Brown, Phil; Jerry Ball, Detroit
    OLB: Charles Haley, SF; Lawrence Taylor, Giants; Pat Swilling, New
    Orleans
    ILB: Pepper Johnson, Giants; Mike Singletary, Chicago; Vaughan Johnson,
    New Orleans
    CB: Darrell Green, Washington; Carl Lee, Minn; Wayen Haddix, Tampa
    S: Jowy Browner, Minn; Ronnie Lott, SF; Mark Carrier, Chicago
    
5.879Special TeamsSHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterFri Dec 21 1990 09:4714
     AFC
    
    Punter: Rohn Stark, Indi
    Placekicker: Nick Lowery, KC
    Kick returner: Clarence Verdin, Indi
    Special teams: Steve Tasker, Buffalo; players to be named later
    
    NFC
    
    Punter: Sean Landeta, Giants
    Placekicker: Morten Andersen, New Orleans
    Kick returner: Nel Gray, Detroit
    Special teams: Rena Thompson, Giants; players to be named later
    
5.880OK except for the special teamsSHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterFri Dec 21 1990 09:518
    All in all, I think that's a very fair list.  How Gary Anderson is not
    the AFC kicker is beyond me.  The guy is the best in NFL history.  If
    he was kicking in a dome 8 games out of the year he'd have unbelievable
    percentages.
    
    Isn't Landetta hurt?  Isn't Matt Bahr kicking for the Giants?  
    
    	--dan'l
5.881Raul on IRWFOV12::MORRISONRipped my mind on the jagged skyFri Dec 21 1990 10:206
    --dan'l
        Yes, Matt Bahr is kicking for the Giants, but you're thinking 
    of Raul Allegre. Landetta is the Giant's punter, not placekicker.
    
    Bull~
    
5.882Guess I should read my own notes more carefully!SHALOT::MEDVIDNovember spawned a monsterFri Dec 21 1990 11:021
    
5.883Not badSHALOT::HUNTShoeless Joe Belongs In CooperstownFri Dec 21 1990 11:2919
    The Pro Bowl results came out pretty well in terms of overall fairness. 
    Of course, you can always expect pretty good results like these when
    the coaches and players do the voting.
    
    With my admitted Eagles bias, I am somewhat disappointed that Keith
    Byars didn't make the team.   He's having a monster year in both
    catching passes out of the backfield and knocking linebackers on their
    butts.    One reason you can point to for his omission is that there
    isn't really a position for him on the Pro Bowl roster.   The running
    back slots are taken up by the rushing leaders, not the pass catchers. 
    Perhaps this has to change over time.
    
    And Bo Jackson may very well be the athlete of the century.  I read
    where LT said he was tired of going to Hawaii every year after the long
    season.   LT ought to try Bo's schedule if he thinks he's tired.  Bo
    will have only about 3 or 4 weeks off before he has to report for the
    Royals' spring training.
    
    Bob Hunt
5.884COMET::WADESanta Claus is coming to town!Fri Dec 21 1990 11:477
    
    	In my orange-tinted opinion, Mike Horan (Denver punter)
    	got hosed.  He was leading the AFC, and I think the league,
    	in net average.  Of course, I'm sure all of those who voted
    	took 10% off of his average to compensate for altitude :*).
    
    	Claybroon
5.885EARRTH::BROOKSHappy Kwanza, Merry Xmas et al !Fri Dec 21 1990 12:016
    
    Actually Claybroon, punter Greg Montgomery of Houston got hosed. He is
    a full yard ahead of his competition in punting, both in gross and net
    average. Trouble is, Houston has been so devastating in the Run N
    Shoot, he doesn't have quite enough punts to qualify among the league
    leaders.
5.886MPP6::MACNEALHappy Holidays, Y'all!Fri Dec 21 1990 12:241
    Joe Montana was named as SI's Athlete of the Year.
5.887With a Don King Chia Hula Pet on the dash!SASE::SZABOBraccae tuae aperiuntur!Fri Dec 21 1990 12:273
    I bet Joe gets a car from SI shaped like a sneaker phone!
    
    Hawk
5.888I love it when an underdog sticks it to themUPWARD::HEISERwhen the reign comes downFri Dec 21 1990 16:594
    I love how Phoenix's only player to get picked is their lowest paid
    player on the roster ($85,000/yr).
    
    I hope Johnson wins RoY too!
5.889FSOA::JRODOPOULOSHey Mon, How Many Jobs You Got Today ?Thu Dec 27 1990 15:249
    I can not believe that no Dallas Cowboy was picked for the Pro Bowl.
    Novacek (TE) should have been a lock, considering that he leads all TE
    in receptions, and yardage.  Eugene Lockhart (LB) was overlooked again
    as were Nate Newton (OL), Ken Norton Jr. (LB), and Isaac Holt (CB).
    How can a team go from the league's worst record in 1989 to competing
    for a playoff spot in 1990 and not have a pro bowl player selected is a
    joke.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
5.890MPP6::MACNEALPapa MacThu Dec 27 1990 15:285
    re Cowboys & Probowl:
    
    Considering that the Cowboys seem to be putting in a good *team* effort
    and they are staffed by a bunch of youngsters, it doesn't surprise me
    too much that they don't have an All-Pro on the squad this year.
5.891LAGUNA::MAY_BRMaster of the UniverseThu Dec 27 1990 20:0112
    
    Novacek would be little more than a role player on many teams.  He is a
    decent receiver (looks better when compared to what Dallas has) but is
    a poor blocker.  That's why he was let go by Phoenix.  Norton has a
    long way to go before he is up with some of the top LB's in the NFL. 
    Unfortunately he plays a position that is very strong right now in the
    NFL.
    
    The Pro Bowl recognition comes from years of performance, not just one
    decent year.
    
    Bruce
5.892RTE3::WENTZELLLately it occurs to me...Fri Dec 28 1990 09:2512
    
    >The Pro Bowl recognition comes from years of performance, not just one
    >decent year.
    
    
Do you mean in theory or in practice?  I always thought the Pro Bowl was just 
what you say it isn't in theory, but in practice may have become a game just 
for the big names.  Aren't there at least a few rookies who get there??

I'd like to see what the NFL o-fish-u-ly outlines as the guidelines.

Scott