Conference 7.286::sports_90

    I know this is kind of off-the-wall, but is it true that Gene Autry
    makes severals million dollars per year on royalties for "Rudolph
    the Red Nose Reindeer?"  I think he wrote that song in the 30's.
    
    If this is true, should we all buy a 45RPM of the song and send
    it to Mark Langston?  :-)
    
    Bo

Gee Bo, we're off the subject already.

Yes, Autry also recorded the song, and it's the version you hear most
around this time of year.

I like the idea of sending them to Mark Langston...

Chainsaw

    Nope, You're both wrong. Langston's not the gu to BLAM. Autry's
    the guy with the red nose ;)
    
    Ras III

    I dunno, Howard Cosell's nose is pretty red.

ITEM:  KC Royals trade Leibrandt and Lueckens for Atlanta 1B Gerald Perry.

	Good move by the Royals. Trade one of their worst pitchers and
a reliever made expendable by the acquisition of Davis, get a guy who
will let Brett DH, and who is well suited to turf-hitting, who they
can probably rely on for 5 years at 1B. Their starters are now
Saberhagen, Gubicza, Gordon, Davis, and Dotson or Aquino, with 
Farr, Montgomery(unhappy), Davis, the Dotson/Aquino non-starter, and
Terry Leach in the bullpen...  Eisenreich probably not the classic
leadoff/CF they would like, and Frank White's bat is definitely slowing
down, but with Jackson, Tartabull, Seitzer, Brett, Perry, Stillwell taking
up the slack, it's a pretty good lineup..

	Jim M

    .7
    
    That leaves them with no Lefty starter and one lefty on the staff
    Davis.

    With Whitt going to Atlanta, who'll be the Blue Jays' starting catcher
    in 1990?
    
    
    py

    re .9
    
    They will platoon Borders and Greg Myers.  Unfortunately, the better of
    the two is Borders but he will only play against the lefties.
    The Jays had a deal with Detroit sending Whitt there but only gave
    Whitt 24 hours to make a deal with them.  Whitt wanted more than 1 year
    and a guarantee of playing time.  The Tigers only offered 1 year. 
    Whitt was told he would be the 3rd string catcher and occasional DH in
    Toronto.
    
    pete

    
    Errgh!  ANyone else still getting disconnected form sports?
    
    re a couple back:
    
    Not having a lefty starter may not hurt KC.  Oakland played without
    one for much of last year.  I still like the A's starting 5 a tad
    better than KC's.
    
    Bruce

>    I still like the A's starting 5 a tad better than KC's.

Bruce,

Who are the A's starters ?  Davis was one of them.  And Curt Young
certainly can't be thought of as a lock for one of the spots.
Seems like Moore, Stewart and Welch for sure...after that....

And any team that features Rich Dotson as one of the starters
can't have that good a staff :).  And how will Storm do in KC ?
Is Gordon for real ?  Gubicza and Saberhagen are great...after
that...

Seems like Cal has the most reliable starters in the division.


Joe

    re .13:
    
    My guess is that ex-Cub Scott Sanderson will take Davis' place in the
    rotation.
    
    As far as Storm Davis goes, I expect him to have the same decent W-L
    record/mediocre ERA he had with the A's.  Royals' Stadium is a good
    pitchers park, and with the addition of Mark Davis KC now has a deep
    bullpen (M. Davis, Montgomery, Farr).  Given this, I can't agree with
    those who say Storm's numbers will hit bottom because he's leaving
    Oakland.
    
    
    py
                                           

    
    The A's staff looks to be : Stewart, Moore, Welch, Todd Burns,
    Sanderson.  I like Welch better than Gordon (I think he may be a
    Flash in the pan 8^) ),  Burns over Davis, and Sanderson over Dotson.
    
    Storm benefited tremendously by the depth of the A's bullpen.  He
    owes Gene Nelson and Burns quite a bit for coming in in the 6th
    or 7th and keeping the games close for Eck.  I don't think KC's
    pen is quite as deep or that it is managed the way LaRussa managed
    it for Davis.  Storm's ERA was also quite high for pitching in Oakland.
    He benefitted quite a bit from the A's offense, and KC's offense
    is a notch below that.
    
    I agree that the Angels have the best starting staff in the division. 
    How well their relievers and their offense do could decide the AL West.
    
    Now that Molitor has signed maybe we will see a flurry of trades
    by the teams that missed out on signing him.  I know Cal. is looking
    for some more offense.
    
    Bruce     

    Yount has re-signed with the Brewers.  Details of the contract weren't
    available, but rumor has it that is was $9+ mil for 3 years.

    Is Curt Young all but gone as a starter?
    
    

    
    Curt was all but gone, I just wish he'd Willie out of Oakland. 
    8^)
    
    Seriously, he looked terrible in most of his starts last year. 
    If he wasn't a lefty, the A's would have dropped him.
    
    Bruce

    Who did the Tiger's beat in the ALCS in '84
                Orioles                     '83

    re .19:
    
    Definitely know that the Orioles beat the White Sox in '83; almost
    positive that it was Detroit over Kansas City in '84.
    
    
    py

1980	Kansas City over New York, 3 games to 0
1981	New York over Oakland, 3 games to 0
	  New York over Milwaukee, 3 games to 2
	  Oakland over Kansas City, 3 games to 0
1982	Milwaukee over California, 3 games to 2
1983	Baltimore over Chicago, 3 games to 1
1984	Detroit over Kansas City, 3 games to 0
1985	Kansas City over Toronto, 4 games to 3
1986	Boston over California, 4 games to 3
1987	Minnesota over Detroit, 4 games to 1
1988	Oakland over Boston, 4 games to 0
1989	Oakland over Toronto, 4 games to 1

    re: -1
    
    Paul,
    
    In the AL East anything is possible.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    While down visiting my folks for Christmas last week I pulled out
    some old cassette tapes I had made as a kid.  One night in September,
    1974 I taped the ninth inning of Nolan Ryan's third no-hitter, when
    he beat the Twins 4-0.  There were some interesting things related
    to that game and others going on that night.  In that game, Ryan
    had 15 K's and 7 walks.  He struck out Eric Soderholm to end the
    game, but only after Harmon Killebrew had been sent up to pinch-hit
    with two out.  Harm ended up walking.  That game made Ryan's record
    22-16 and was his 26th CG out of 41 starts!!
    
    On the scoreboard show, I remember Phil Niekro pitched a three-hitter
    to improve his record to 19-11 for Atlanta, Daryll Evans hit his
    25th HR.  A guy named Carter hit his first HR for Montreal, Luis
    Tiant won his 22nd game, Richie Zisk hit his 22nd HR for Pittsburgh,
    Mike Cuellar won for Baltimore as Boog Powell HR'd, Gaylord Perry
    pitched for Cleveland, rookie Dennis Leonard won for KC, Lou Pienella
    HR'd for the Yanks, Billy Williams for the Cubs...
    
    It was great!  Then, I'm playing the other side and the tape starts
    getting mangled.  :*O  ACK!  I'm hoping to save it, but it's a cheap
    old tape.  If I do, I'll be sure this time make a copy right away!
    
    
    Spud                       

    Another note I've been wanting to add is my admiration for Jim
    Eisenrich.  About a week ago he was voted the Royals MVP, edging
    out Bo by a vote.  Eisenrich has made a great comeback and deserves
    the honor.  He led the Royals in average, doubles, steals? (he had 27)
    and played all three OF positions very well.  He wasn't even sure
    he'd make the team at the beginning of the year, but found himself beating
    out Willie Wilson as the starting CF.  
    
    In the article I was reading about this, his mom was saying that
    Jim was always happiest when he played baseball.  When he was going
    through his problems, he couldn't even enjoy that.  When he left
    baseball, he returned home to St. Cloud, MN to play amature ball.
    There he led his team to the championship with a .625 average.
    Since joining the Royals, his family and friends come as a group to 
    see him play whenever KC is in town.  In one game this year, Jim hit
    a homer that led to a Royal win and the group was up cheering crazily. 
    His mom said to herself, as she watched Jim cross home plate with a big
    smile, "Thank God, Thank God."
    
    Anyone who saw what he went through as we did, can only feel the
    same.
    
    
    Spud    

    I'm sorry but I don't know what Jim Eisenrich suffered. Could you
    please fill me in so I can better understand his accomplishment?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ted.

    The story of Jim Eisenreich's illness goes back several years.
    
    I believe he came up with the Minnesota Twins way back in the early
    1980s.  Soon afterwards, they had to start taking him out of ballgames
    because he was shaking and twitching out of control.
    
    There were all kinds of amateur diagnoses made.  A lot of folks said it
    was "stage fright" or "shell shock".   This went on for several years. 
    Some of the treatment he got from the fans was pretty brutal.  Lots of
    teasing and taunting.
    
    Finally, it looked like his career was over.  No firm diagnosis was
    made and he couldn't play.
    
    I don't know the details but he was finally diagnosed with an illness
    called Tourette's Syndrome (I think).  It's a muscle and nerve
    disorder.  It's got nothing to do with "stage fright".   He's on the
    proper medication now and he had a tremendous year for the Royals last
    year.
    
    Great human drama story.   Betcha one of the networks will make a TV
    movie out of it.  You know, the kind of movie that always seems to have
    a lightweight actress like Lindsay Wagner in it.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Thanks Bob. I saw a documentary by the BBC about a teenage boy who
    also suffered from Tourette's. Like Eisenrich, this boy had the
    shaking and twitching but he also had the problem of not being able
    to control his language. He would blurt out the blue-est language
    you ever heard. He knew he was doing it but couldn't stop himself.
    The camera actually showed him biting his lip to try to stop himself.
    
    Even in this day and age it's amazing how many ignoramous' will
    still make fun of someone with a disability.
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    Good luck to Eisenreich again next year.
    
    Ted.

    Good note, guys.  Can any of us imagine the absolute raw guts that
    Eisenrich needed when he went on the field during that time?  That
    took a heck of a lot of courage.
    
    I'm sure we can all imagine what kind of garbage and crap he heard
    during that time, considering that most of us have been to a major
    league game at some time.  Them animals are everywhere.
    
    Lee
    
    Good luck to Eisenrich.
    
    

    I believe that Chris Jackson, the superb guard out of LSU, suffers
    from Tourette Syndrome also.
    
    Redmen Phil
    

    It is Tourette's Syndrome that Eisenrich suffers from.  He takes
    medication that keeps it under control and appears fine now. 
    
    Jim did come up with the Twins in 1982 and started in CF.  That
    was the Twins first year in Dome when they started usually eight
    or nine rookies.  He started out well and was the ideal leadoff
    hitter.  He posessed (as he does now) a strong arm, speed and an
    aggressive bat.  Early in the season he started removing himself
    from ballgames.  He would tense up and come running off the field.
    I remember one game in Detroit where he had an exceptionally long
    at-bat.  He kept fouling off pitches, maybe 10 of them.  With each
    pitch he seemed to get more and more worked up.  He would step out
    and try to take a deep breath, but that wouldn't help.
    
    At first he was examined by the team doctor, then several other
    doctors.  His teammates didn't really know how to react, but did
    support him.  The manager Billy Gardner also supported him, but
    it seemed like he got tired of the situation and eventually didn't
    want to deal with it.  Finally Jim left the team to try and deal
    with and work out his situation.  
    
    It's great to see that he's made it back.  In fact he recently has
    become engaged, so things have really turned around for him.  Thanks
    to the KC Royals for giving him the chance, but I feel a little bad
    the Twins didn't hang with him a little longer.
    
    
    Spud

    
    	Seems to me there was an incident in Fenway with Eisenrich. 
      His disorder caused him to twich and hyperventalate quite
      noticeably. The fans in the bleachers from what I remember 
      really got on his case and made a mock of this guy and really
      harassed him, I don't recall exactly what they did but it did
      make the headlines.
    	He is a classic example of following your doctors advice,
      taking your prescribed medicine and it seems to have worked
      in his best intrests. Something Oil Can should have learned.
    

    Yeah, the Fenway Faithful really blew that one.....  :-(
    
    Eisenreich spent at least parts of two or three years 'recovering',
    until he got it under control with the proper medication.  Thought I
    read something that he was hitting .47x in semi-pro ball in his home
    town (St. Cloud, MINN??)..
    
    -- dg

    GHJGGGJKG
    

RE:    <<< Note 4.34 by WCSM::PCOX >>>
>>                                   -< YULK >-
>>    GHJGGGJKG


ASDKLIOUWQL ASKA ASI SZX.C/VL ASDOF ASLDF AQw er adslfkh  OAwerfa;<sdlo.
DSDKA CAPS ALSDKFAS LOCK FJFJFJFJ SHOUTING.  AL;KSRTU SL;L;DFGHJ ALSKD.

j.

    Re: .33  dg
    
    He actually hit an amazing .625!
    
    The Boston incident was probably the worst with fans, but there
    were problems in a couple of other ballparks as well.
    
    
    Spud

    	The Boston fans were a disgrace that day.
    
    				/Don

    I remember reading about it and seeing it on the "sports hi-lites"
    that night on the sports report. It is truly of of the worst showing
    of Boston sports fans in the history of the Red Sox.
    
                        REK

	According to AP, the Strike is OVER! 
	If I get more details tonight, I'll put them in...

	Jim M

	Details so far:

	4 year agreement
	100,000 minimum salary
	55 million in pension benefits
	17% of 2 years players eligible for arbitration

	Important stuff:
	Camps open officially Tuesday, March 20th. Pirates, Mets, and
	Orioles probably open Monday.
	First exhibition game - Monday, March 26th
	Season starts - Monday April 9th
	Schedule - tentatively 158 games, final 4 games being
	negotiated - possible added thru doleheaders, possibly
	adding time to end of season...

	Jim M

    
    
    YAAAAAAAHOOOOOOO!  
    
    or should I say, WAAAAAAAAAHHHHOOOOOOO!
    
    

Strike -- when she outright says no.

Lockout -- when she doesn't say anything, but she's wearing
	   a chastity belt.


'Saw

au contraire

Strike -- When she won't put out.

Lockout -- When she puts you out.

Mike JN

    furthermore....
    
    Doghouse -- Strike and Lockout, both, in the same week.
    
    H'awk
     

    	Roger Clemens is wearing the number 16, Jim Rice's number this
    spring training.  Appropriately, he refuses to talk to the press
    about it.  One of the Red Sox trainers told the press Roger's doing
    it out of respect to Jim Rice.  Who's going to wear Bob Stanley's
    number?  Bill Buckner?          
    
    				/Don

       that's 14 /Don.
                                  Denny

    Think hockey, /Don.  Neely is GOD, not Clemens.

>Hey!  I just heard that Roger Clemens will be wearing Jim Rice's size 16
>underwear this year.  Is this true?

A reporter stuck a live microphone in Clemens face and asked him about
this BVD brou-ha-ha.  Clemens, although officially not talking to the media
was heard to mutter, "This is definitely not my underwear."

More later, as the story develops.

Dan

    I believe he also uttered the immortal words:
    
    "Uh-Oh Fart....Uh-Oh Fart"
    
    JoJ

ROGER CLEMMONS IS GOD AND WOOD NOT WER RICE UNDERWHERE ANYWAY
WHATIS YUR PROBLEM PAL ROGERS' GOT TOO SY YUNG AWARS AND TWOENTY
HOF K'S STRICKOUTS IN THE HALL FO FAM SO HE IS NO TOO BLAM!!!!

JIM RICE IS A STIFFF AND ROGER WOLUD NOT WERE HIS NUMBER FOR ANYEE
REESON.

BILL BUCHNER SHULD NOT BE PLAYYING FOR THE RED SOCKS BECAWSE HE
STINSK AND IS TOO OLD BUT RMEMEMBER ONE MAN IS TNO TWO BLAM!!!!

    Rumors are flying that the Angels are trying to make a deal with the
    Yankees for Dave Winfield.  A California scout has been sent to the
    Yankee training camp.  The Angels are looking for some run production
    and a right fielder.  The Yanks are looking for pitching.  Witt's name
    is coming up as the main bait for Winfield.  There are still questions
    over Winfield's health, however.

    
    I thought Winfield got traded to the Brewers?
    
    The plot thickens Fay Vincent say ole Spleenbender deserves to be 
    scrutinized for his dealing with Scarpia...
    
    Seems the FBI has a tape of Scarpia talking about his $50,000.00
    a year job "What a job, 50K to destroy your best ballplayer"...
    
    George still maintains it was charity....
    
    Can the commissoner kick an owner out of the league? I doubt it but
    possibly he can force him not to have any dealing with the players?
    
    More importantly can he keep the owner's mouth shut?
    
    mike

The Lee Smith rumor mill is still churning as well... 

Besides the neverending Atlanta rumors, Minnesota's name has
come up as well.   Here's a simple deal that could be made in
five minutes and help both teams:

	Lee Smith for Gene Larkin and a prospect.

Larkin can play 1B, is a switchitter I think, and is a decent line-drive
type hitter who can produce runs.   He's stuck behind Hrbek and the logjam
in RF with Randy Bush, etc.

I don't have 1989 numbers, but Larkin played 60 games at 1B in 1988 with
a .994 fielding percentage.

    >The plot thickens Fay Vincent say ole Spleenbender deserves to be 
    >scrutinized for his dealing with Scarpia...

Do it, Fay, do it!  Make him sell the team.  At least, suspend
him for 6 years!  Do something!!!

Dan

Reinstate Shoeless Joe!!!

    For all you baseball purists....I saw where Fay hisself would like
    to see the DH abolished....
    
    Claybone

Reinstate Shoeless Joe!

	Personally I think the Sox will end up trading the best reliever
they have right now (Lee Smith) for peanuts.  They never should've gone
after Jeff Reardon.  They should've fired Joe "Rain Man" Morgan because
he can't handle a pitching staff, and he didn't know how to use Lee Smith.
And they should've gone after a starting pitcher, hell even the manchild
Storm Davis would look good on this staff.  But the Sox did sell lots of
tickets so we can all pack Fenway this summer (and pay outrageous money
to park) and watch this team monotonously muddle through yet another season
of mediorcrity.  How this team picked up Tony Pena is remarkable.  It 
must've been a mistake.  Does anybody else think the Sox management is
starting to sound like the Yankees when talking about how Wes Gardner,
Wes Hetzel and [name your choice] will win 15 games this year?  Gardner
couldn't win 15 games in three years!

				/Don

           <<< OURGNG::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< OURGNG::SPORTS - Digital's daily tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 3.26                Official National League topic                 26 of 26
FDCV07::GARBARINO                                    18 lines  30-MAR-1990 07:48
                       -< Another fallacy laid to rest. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For all the NL supremists out there, USA Today had an interesting little
graph yesterday re: the AVE OF distances in the MLs:

	Left	left-center	center	right-center	right
	----	-----------	------	------------	-----
NL	333	375		404	375		333	symetrical ?
AL	327	380		406	379		322
	---	---		---	---		---
NL-AL	+6	-5		-2	-4		+11


Realistically, we're talking NO DIFFERENCE over-all.  But specifically,
the NL parks are longer down the lines, but shorter in the middle.

So much for the "smallness" of the AL parks.


Joe

    Your use of dasticticks reminds me of the stat man who drowned in
    a lake that averaged 3" in depth.
    
    In other words, what you're saying is out of context and bogus.

    	put them DASTISTICKS in the HALL OF FAME!!!! (right next to
    babe's picture would be appropriate) 8^)

>    Your use of dasticticks reminds me of the stat man who drowned in
>    a lake that averaged 3" in depth.
    
>    In other words, what you're saying is out of context and bogus.

C'mon man, don't be cute and don't whine with all your childish
"dasticticks" b_llshit...give me INFORMATION to support your belief
that NL parks ARE bigger than AL parks.  Prove the claim you appear
to be making !

NLers claim that AL parks are "tiny", and therefore contribute to
more runs scored, more HRs, poor offensive philosophy (ie: wait for the
3-run homer) etc.  USA Today printed average ballpark dimensions for
both leagues.  Are they wrong ?  Are there a few 600' parks (and the
rest 200') grossly distorting the "average" park size ?

I'll bet there are about as many AL parks larger than the ave. as
there are smaller than the ave.


Joe

    JOe,
    
    It seems to me more homers are hit down the line than to dead center
    or the alleys.  Therefore, it makes a big difference, with the little
    dink shots in the AL.
    
    JD

    >>It seems to me more homers are hit down the line than to dead center
    
    It SEEMS to you? OK, you've stated your opinion. Not necessarily fact.
    
    The AL/NL park effect debate was effectively closed by Joe's note. You
    can't argue those facts that Joe presented. 
    
    The NL'ers are full of crap as usual.
    
    JoJ

>>>Is this
>>>word meant to represent a steaming loaf of fecal matter
    
    Normally, yes. But let me try to make this clearer to ya Frankie_Baby.
    
    The self_proclaimed_baseball_purists (a.k.a. NL fans or SPBP for short)
    have been whining for years that the lack of offensive production
    (translation: proliferation of Boring One Run Games) as compared to 
    the AL's exciting brand of baseball is due to the fack that the AL has
    the DH and the AL has smaller parks. 
    
    Additionally, the SPBP's claim that the NL game is more of a "thinking
    mans" game because managers have to make the tremendous decisions about
    whether or not to allow their weak hitting pitcher whiff or to put in a
    guy who can hit the ball 450 feet when the winning run is on second.
    
    In reality, all of the SPBP's assertions are false. And Joe pointed out
    with facts that the NL parks are not larger than the AL parks. 
    
    Since the DH argument has been won by the AL'ers, and the difference in
    thinking between the two leagues has been proven false by Tony LaRussa,
    Joe has effectively killed the last great debate by proving that the
    NL'ers are once again full of steaming loaves of fecal matter.
    
    OK Frank?

    Wardle-vane,
    
    All Joe did was put in Dastistiks (tm) - how bout posting some numbers
    of homers down the line for each league.  I like both leagues, but
    face it - Fenway is 315 to left, and what, 298 to right, Yankee
    is what , 290 down the line.  dinky shots.
    
    
    JD

    First of all, JD, how many of those dinky shots do you think YOU can
    hit? ZERO BABY.
    
    How about YOU post the number of homers hit down the line in each
    league....it was your assertion that Joe's numbers prove nothing, not
    mine.
    
    JoJ

    JoJ babe,
    
    Naw - let Joe back up his facks(tm) - the distances he listed dont
    prove a damn thang.
    
    JD

>    Naw - let Joe back up his facks(tm) - the distances he listed dont
>    prove a damn thang.

Hey JD, I don't have to prove anything.  Based on average park dimensions,
there is no significant difference in the size of NL parks vs. AL parks.
I made no conclusions about HRs or runs scored, etc...only that based
on dimensions, the 2 leagues average the same size parks.  I also stated
that the NLer's perception that there's more offense in the AL because
there's smaller parks over there is INCORRECT.


Joe

    Ya know what Joe, it really doesn't matter what percentage of HR's are
    hit down the line. Most are not hit off the foul pole. Usually the are
    hit to left or right field, but not necessarily on the line. So in all
    likelyhood, by the time they get 20-30 in from the foul line there
    isn't any difference at all between parks.
    
    JoJ

JoJ -

Fine answer....  But, with all these "Baby"s flying around, we're gonna
have to start calling you JoV....

I like SLOF... Sounds kinda like a mountain man wif no teef trying to
say Sloth, one of the 7 Deadly Sin (along wif Dopey and Sleazy....)

'Saw

    AL bigots,
    
    	Just quoting the *average* dimensions isn't good enough.  What's
    	the standard deviation?  I'll bet the NL standard deviation is
    	smaller thus causing the NL batters to consistently have to hit
    	the ball farther for a home run.  
    
    	298 in Fenway?  290 in Yankee stadium?  Geez, we play slow-pitch
    	softball on longer fences than that!
    
    Claybone

I like both leagues, and I've never really gotten into the mega-datisticks
that try and assess things like the average length of infield grass
vs ball-velocity vis-a-vis the latent rotational torque of today's
ball in influencing the ability of a utility infielder to hit a home run
when it's needed....;^)

One thing I like about any given ball park is it's character.  This
is an intangible that really has nothing to do with a game, but 
enhances the experience for the fan.  Fenway park has a lot of character.
There's nothing like a hotdog and a beer in Fenway on a nice afternoon.

My dad says the old Yankee Stadium was the same way, and I have friends
who swear you can see ghosts of the old days in Wrigley field (except
when they have the lights on ;^))

So, personally, I don't give a hoot about line length or whatever.
As long as the beer is cold, the dogs good, and the players play the
game......

Take me out to the (non-datistikal) ballgame
'Saw

>    	298 in Fenway?  290 in Yankee stadium?

Yankee Stadium doesn't have a 290 line in either field.

    Hey Joe, thanks for correcting that. 
    
    Clay is a Red Man chawing Alabamy that's talkin' out his ass. He's also
    a hog lover which is why he wanted Arkansas to win. 
    
    JoJ

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Re.87
    
    Claybone, 
    
    We're not getting personal here, ARE WE?????
    
    JaKe, aka Rich JACOB
    

    anyway, how can I walk a mile when my ass is tied to a tree.
    
    I'm not that elastic!!!!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

Jake...

I didn't mean you, unless you're older than Jesus!  8^)

I meant the dude in the Bible.  Now rumor has it that he stuck
around for a long time, and became the Amazing Rubber Man, in 
the old Superheroes comics...

After that he lost some of his zip, gained weight, and is now
the Michelin Man....

HTH,
'Saw

    Note that I should really admit it,  BUT
    unfortunately I do bear at least a minor resemblance to the Michelin
    Man, but I'm working on losing that right now.
    
    JaKe
    

    How many times do I have to tell youze guys....SKOAL!  As in a peench
    between the cheek and gum, as in worm dirt, as in cricket sh*t, as in
    dip snuff!
    
    I ain't from 'Bama neither.  I was born in Arkansas.  SoooooooooooEEE
    EEEEEEE PIG!  My pa happens to work at the U of Alabama and that
    coupled with Bear Bryant being *GAWD* causes me to root for the Tide.
    
    I was on Letterman on Feb. 29th.  I'm surprised you guys missed it!
    
    JD said 290 and nobody refuted him so I took it as fack(tm).  It's
    still somewhere  close to that down the right field line.....
    
    Claybone

    C'mon Clay, how could you be from Arkansas...? You cain read and write!
    
    JoJ

Yeah, Clay, if you was from Arkansas, you'd be married to yer sister...;^)

Seriously, it's nice to find another Tide supporter.  I like 'Bama, and
I ain't even from down there.

There was a dude in here (fergit his name) who was a big Auburn fan, 
but I think he went back to school...  (or is that skoal?)

latered,
Chainsaw

    Frank, you like every team...BABY!
    
    And, Clay is from Arkansas....just check out the peench between his
    cheek and gums....he ain't got no got no teef. Plus, the 6 fingers on
    each hand are a dead give away.
    
    haw haw haw....
    
    JoJ

Vane BABY!

I don't like every BABY team.  I don't like the Yankees baby! 8^)


Six fingers on each hand?  Golly, Sgt Carter, sound like my cousin
Goober....8^)

Oh yeah, JoJ, the Jest sip through a straw 8^) <---- time twenty


'Saw

>>Oh yeah, JoJ, the Jest sip through a straw 8^) <---- time twenty
    
    
    Frankwa....they do not.
    
    JoJ

    JoJ -- do so ;^)

Claybone....

Do your ears stick out?  8^)   

Or should it look like this:     ^
                                 8^)
                                 v

'Saw

    re: Frankwa....
    
    No they don't.
    

    Sure they do!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey Jake...we'll be saying that about PittsburgH very soon with Walton
    controlling the offense.
    
    The 3rd and 25 draw has moved west to PittsburgH, enjoy it. And enjoy
    counting how many times Joe picks his nose per game.
    
    JoJ

    Alright you guys, back on topic....:^)
    
    Haha, beat ya to it Jeff!
    
    Claybone

JoJ --

You guys still have Tony Hard, uh, er, Easy-on...  It's awful hard to
win games when your QB wears a dress and bites ankles....

Hope this helps 8^)
'Saw

    re-.1
    'Saw   Sounds like a good description of Bernie Kosar, too!!
    
    Re-a few
    JoJ,
    
    The 3rd and 25 draw will be nothing new to the Steelers.   The only
    plus to the situation is that Walton is only the OC and not the Head
    Coach.
    
    Steelers will be 1st or 2nd in the AFC Central this year.  either
    10-6 or 11-5.
    
    JaKe
    
    ?????Back on topic, er, um, uh, just what the hell is the topic in here
    anyway???????????????????????
    

    Jake, Frank, Clay...etc....you are all a bunch of heiny-holes
    
    
    JoJ

    JoJ
    
    @#$%$ &{()*}# !@#$% **(^& in your %$#@ ^&*( >?"|:}{ !@@#$!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

Cute JoJ...

"Heiny-hole"...I kinda like it...

'Saw

    Surprised no one mentioned this here yet - Mark Langston and Bobby
    Witt combined on a no-hitter vs. the mighty Seattle Mariners lasted
    night.  It was Langston's firsted start as an Angel.
    
    JD

    	Bill Buckner had an inside the park homerun last night...

    	...and hell froze over also.

    Ryan is now 7 wins away from 300 career wins.
    
    He has allowed one or fewer hits in a record 17 complete games. 
    It was his 58th shutout, the 200th time he has K'd at least 10
    batters, and the 24th time he has whiffed at least 15.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Both NL and AL umpires have been ordered to crackdown on the oversized
    gloves starting today.  Umpires will be equipped with tape measures to
    make sure that gloves are no larger than 12" from heel to tip.  
    Most outfielders use 14" gloves.
    
    pete 

    What's the word on White Sox's 3B rookie Robin Ventura?  He was
    starting until a few days ago.  The box scores I saw only showed
    1 hit this season.  Is he having trouble adjusting to the majors?
    
    inquiring cowboy

    Will someone provide me with some background information on Cecil	
    Fielder for the Detroit Tigers?
                                                      WILL THE THRILL
    

    WTT,
    
    	He was playing in Japan prior to coming back to the States.
    	That's about the extent of my knowledge of him other than
    	he can really swat homers.
    
    Claybone

    Before going to Japan, Fielder was with the Toronto Blue Jays.  He
    platooned for a while with Fred McGriff at 1B but McGriff won the
    starting job full time, so Fielder went to Japan last year.  The Tigers
    signed him as a free agent this past spring.
    
    
    py

    Cecil fielder played for the Toronto Blue Jays in 1987. He hit 14
    homers in 82 games that year, but was a platoon player in 1988. It
    seemed that it would stay that way. So, he decided to play in Japan
    to become a everyday player and to work on his hitting. As we all know
    it worked. He leads the league with 12 homers and 28 rbi's. Roger Maris 	
    watch out!!!. He is only 26 years of age.
    
                                                    WILL THE THRILL

    
    And I got him in my Rotisserie League at the absolute minimum
    after bad-mouthing him all through Spring Training :-) :-)
    
    						Roland
    

    Roland,
         You got a good pick!! How much did he cost you. I know you got
    him at a good price. I'm trying to find his rookie baseball card,
    before it goes up. I hope he has a great season for you.
    
                                                WILL THE THRILL 8^)
    
    

    
    Will,
    
    	Based on the $260 per 23 players model, I got him for $1.  It
    really was more out of desperation than anything - everyone else's
    corner slots were filled, I was low on money, and I thought he'd
    be a stiff, even though I knew he had power.
    
    	Of course, at this point in time, I say that I just showed
    incredible foresight. :-)
    
    	It would be interesting to hear what the Detroit fans think
    of him.  From what I've heard and seen, calling him "Fielder" is
    kind of an oxymoron.
    
    						Roland
    

    I thought the same thing, still, not convinced it will last, and just
    depressed what he's done the last 3 games meant going 0-3 in the
    standings.... sigh...

    re:126
    Cheer up guy!!!! At least you found a young power hitter. If you think
    the Tigers can't use him. I'm sure the Brewers can find good use for 
    him. I'm sure he'll hit 30 or more homers this year for the Tigers.
    Cecil is doing his job so far this season. Detroit's problem is in 
    there pitching staff, not with Cecil Fielder. Have a little faith.
    
                                                WILL THE THRILL
    		

    Does anyone know the status on Ben Mcdonald of the Orioles? I haven't
    seen him around lately. What's his era and win/lost record.
                                     
                                             WILL THE THRILL
                               

    	Have Ben and Ron ever been seen together???   Hmmm.. I wonder.

    re .128:
    
    Ben McDonald has been on the DL since the start of the year; he pulled
    a muscle in his side during spring training when he tried to field a
    ground ball.  Ben is currently on rehab at triple-A Rochester; he is
    expected to start one more game there before returning to the Orioles.
    
    
    py

    RE:128
          Thanks for the information bud!!!!!!!!!!
    
                                             WILL THE THRILL
    

    It was a grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat throw.  Not to take anything away from
    Bo, but how old is Fisk, 72?
    
    	--dan'l

    
       Karen,
          Last I heard, he had invoked the dreaded 10/5 rule and nixed
      the deal.
      
      Bull~
    
      

    He's a drip.  Does he get along with George so well that he wants to
    hang around NY?  What's Ras think about this??  (-:

    re .137:
    
    >          Does he get along with George so well that he wants to
    >  hang around NY? 
    
    On the contrary, I think Winfield is refusing to go just to piss off
    George...
    
    
    py

    re: Fielder  I do, and I want to believe it, but I've seen it before
    with these guys and then they wilt and die.  He might hit 30 this
    year, but Trammell almost did it 2 years ago and now what?  Last year
    it was Whitaker... I think Fielder's the next one...
    
    Pitching is bad too. Surprised they didn't go after Flanagan.  He'd
    fit the mold of an old-broken down pitcher...

From:	HARBOR::WEEKS "Patty Weeks ML01-2/C30 223-7587  22-May-1990 1044" 22-MAY-1990 10:42:05.35
To:	@BOOP,JACKSON
CC:	
Subj:	FWD: GOTTA LOVE IT...




	TORONTO (UPI) -- Some baseball fans think the Toronto Blue Jays'
retractable roof SkyDome home should be renamed SexDome after fans
watched a couple make love in a hotel suite that overlooks the playing
field.
	Tuesday night, during the team's 4-3 loss to the Seattle Mariners,
those with binoculars could see an older man and a buxom, blond woman
having sex in their suite.
	Although the lights in the suite were off, the couple's room was
illuminated by a bank of television lights in the SkyDome.
	The incident Tuesday follows one several weeks ago where a male
guest in the hotel, built into the SkyDome itself, masturbated in the
window of his suite in front of thousands of Blue Jays fans.
	Police went to his room but no charges were filed because he
thought the window was fitted with one-way glass, SkyDome spokesman
David Garrick said.
	``A lot of the guests think it's one-way glass,'' Garrick said.
	``We're looking at putting tent cards in the rooms telling them
it's not and getting them to sign waivers when they book in,'' Garrick
said.
	Garrick said such behavior isn't condoned because ``we bill SkyDome
as a family place.''
	The SkyDome -- Toronto's $500 million sports and entertainment
facility opened last spring with the world's first fully retractable
roof -- has a 350-suite hotel built into its north end. About 70 of the
suites, which cost more than $600 a night during peak periods, overlook
the playing field.
	Garrick said the couple had finished by the time police arrived
Tuesday. Garrick said he didn't know if police told the couple what many
in the crowd had seen.
	Metro Toronto police Sgt. Brad Brigham said people who perform sex
acts in SkyDome hotel suites witnessed by those in the stands could face
criminal charges of performing an indecent act, which carries a maximum
penalty of six months in jail and or a $2,000 fine.
	However, to be convicted, the accused would have to be intending to
offend those they knew were watching, Brigham said.





    

    It was probably Bob Uecker.
    
    Mark.

"Ned Coleman and Phil Rizzuto here from the Skydome.  We're about to
get ready for the 6th inning here in Toronto, and I'll tell you
Scooter, it's been a tight one so far"

"Right you are, Ned, it's been nip and tuck all the way"

"Well, here's our man, and you know, this hitter is one of the purest
hitters in baseball, preferring only to use a woody, and not aluminum"

"Right you are, Ned...He's stepping into the box now.  You know, Ned,
I can't tell if his woody is laquered all the way or not..."

"Here's the pitch.  Oh, it's wide and outside.  Ball one.  The windup
and the pitch...  Oh, oh, Scooter, it looks like he's got all of
that one...it's going a LONG ways...  that could be outta here...."

"Holy Cow Ned, just look at that thing...."

"It's a home run, yes a home run for the guest in Room 602...."

"Holy Cow Ned, I've never seen anything like that...."


"Well, folks, this is Ned Coleman for Phil Rizzutl here at the SkyDome.
We'll be back for the start of the bottom half of the 6th inning after
these messages...."

    
    Saw, you got the words to the baseball interlude in the middle of
    "Paradise by the Dashboard Lights"?
    
    Dickster
    

    Stop right there.
    
    	(bom, bom, bom)
    
    I gotta know right now.   Before we go any further.  Do you love me? 
    Will you ever leave me?   Will you make me so happy for the rest of my
    life?  Will you make me your bride?  Will you make me your wife?  I
    gotta know right now.  Before we go any further.  Do you love me?  Will
    you love me forever?
    
    Let me think on it.  Baby, baby, let me think on it.
    	.
    	.
    	.
    So, now I'm prayin' for the end of time to hurry up and arrive ...

    
    bob,
    
    you beat me to the punch.. great song....
    

    Yeah, I knew that, Steven.
    
    Still I thought that the lyrics of Ellen Foley and Meatloaf would be at
    least slightly entertaining.   Baby, baby, let me sleep on it ...
    
    Trivia question ...
    
    What television show did Ellen Foley use to have a role in ???   The
    show is still active today but her character was replaced by another
    actress a few years ago.
    
    Anybody ???
    
    Bob Hunt

    No, Steven ...
    
    I gotta know right now before we go any further.
    
    Bob Hunt

    	Meatloaf was a Yankee fan and a Phil Rizutto fan.  He asked
    Phil to record the piece for a song he was doing and Phil obliged.
    Rizutto didn't know what context it was going to be used in and
    was quite embarrased when the song was released.
    
    				/Don

She was the lawyer on Night Court before being replaced 
by Markie Post.

She's on VH-1 now.

Mike

    I'd kick neither Ellen Foley or Markie Post out of the rack.
    
    Mark.

    I'd kick neither Ellen Foley or Markie Post out of the rack.
    
    Mark.

   Agreed!  and her name was Billie something.....I liked her character
   better than Markie's, but definatelty prefer Markie's titles....

:^)

mike

    Correct.
    
    Ellen Foley was the blond lawyer opponent to Dan Fielding (John
    Larroquette) on "Night Court".  Markie Post assumed her role after a
    year or two.
    
    As for Rizzuto, he's an idiot if he ended up embarassed by the
    "Paradise" segment.  He's an idiot regardless but that's another story.
    
    Let's see now.  Back then up and coming rock musician asks me to record
    a baseball "broadcast" segment describing a young player making his way
    "around the bases".   He wants me to say things like "Boy, this kid can
    really fly." and "I think he's gonna make it." and so forth.
    
    Do I detect a sexual theme here ???   Nah.  I'm too stupid to realize
    it.   This young man named "Meatsomething" isn't going to use my
    "broadcast" out of context, is he ???   Nah, can't happen.
    
    Wake up, Phil.  The "basepath" is one of the oldest sexual metaphors
    going.
    
    Bob Hunt

>>    I'd kick neither Ellen Foley or Markie Post out of the rack.
    
>>    Mark.
  
    Well I would,
    
    But only if it was nice soft carpeting and lots of room on the floor
    that we were moving too!!!!!!!
    
    
    JaKe
    

            <<< HARBOR::SHPLOG$DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RED_SOX.NOTE;1 >>>
                             -< Red Sox.... 1990 >-
================================================================================
Note 13.1135                     TRADE RUMORS                       1135 of 1135
TOLKIN::HAUER                                        10 lines  29-MAY-1990 14:54
                       -< GREENWELL'S HISTORY THIS WEEK >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    New trade rumors heard today on ESPN,Greenwell,Hetzel,and Barrett to
    the Indians for Maldonado and Swindell.Or Greenwell,Gardner and Keiker
    to Houston for Scott and Glen Davis.Also possible was Greenwell and 
    Barrett to Montreal for Raines and Martinez with a PTBNL.They say
    Gorman will trade Greenwell by friday.
    
    
    K.H. 
    
                                         

    re .159:
    
    Why would Montreal need Marty Barrett when they've got a top contender
    for NL Rookie of the Year at 2B in Delino DeShields?
    
    I'll believe this when I see it, not until....
    
    
    py

Oui,,,

THey still have the premier shortstop in Baseball SPike Owen playing for them...


Metz


:-)

    And don't they still have Tom Foley?  A good utility infielder?
    I know they got rid of Rex tHE Wonder Dog Foley but I think they
    still have Foley, I mean they go rid of  Rex the Wonder Doc Hudler
    and still ahve Foley, DeSheildes, and Owens.   Dum deal.  The only
    good Barrett is Rona, and she's not very good.
    JD

    re JD:
    
    Yes, Montreal still has Tim Foley, but he's seen little action lately.
    
    
    py

    pssst.....Ryan pitched number 6 last night.
    
    Mark.

    Yep, 14 K's, 2 BB"s beat the A's 5-0.  Unreal...
    
    JD

    And, he's either 44 or 45 years old, the oldest player to ever throw
    a no-hitter.  He's got more than Sigh Young.
    
    Lee

Radio reported him at 43 this morning.

Oldest to throw a no-hitter, and only pitcher to ever do it
on three different teams...

Congrats Nolan!  Just 2 BB away from a perfect game....

'Saw

    Did anybody catch ESPN lasted night?  When the show came on,
    they said Ryan had a no-hitter through 4.  Then towards the
    end of the show, they said Gallego had broken it up in the 6th!
    THEN, Claybone picks up the paper this morning and saw the
    headline about the no-hitter.........Claybone then mutters
    to hisself, "Self, WTFO!".  A little creative scorekeeping
    mebbe?
    
    Claybone_the_baffled

>    Did anybody catch ESPN lasted night?  When the show came on,
>    they said Ryan had a no-hitter through 4.  Then towards the
>    end of the show, they said Gallego had broken it up in the 6th!
>    THEN, Claybone picks up the paper this morning and saw the
>    headline about the no-hitter.........Claybone then mutters
>    to hisself, "Self, WTFO!".  A little creative scorekeeping
>    mebbe?
 

	Yea...when I read the first note in the baseball conference about the
no-no I thought it was a mistake.  That Nolan had probably pitched his 200th
one hitter.  

mc

       ...and remember this wasn't the Yankees or some other loser team, it
    was the A's he no-hit!
                                        Denny

    It was the As, but Joser and McGwire weren't in the lineup FWIW....
    
    Claybone

    a no-hitter is tough to do regardless of who the team is!

    	Nah, it tweren't tainted.  They probably woulda wiffed 4
    	times each to give Ryan 22 strikeouts instead of 14.  I
    	looked in the box score and didn't see any errors on the
    	Texas side which tells me that the scorekeeper didn't
    	change anything......those guys at ESPN musta been trippin'.
    	What're you feeding those guys up in Bristol Frankwa?  ;^)
    
    	Claybone

    Gallego (sp?) drew a walk.  Perhaps ESPN meant to say the perfect game
    had been broken up?

Well, I didn't want to say anything before this, because I didn't
want you all to exploit me, but I've been close personal friends
with Chris Berman for a long time.  In fact, I knew Chris back when
he had a lot of hair.

At any rate, Chris gets the very same mushrooms from me that I send
out to some of you.  In fact, from time to time I let Chris read this
file.

He got the biggest kick out of our Bermanicknames topic, and he
said that most of us were right on the money concerning the names
we picked for ourselves....

At any rate, I'll pass along the congrats to him from you guys, 
and tell him that you like the way they're sportscasting on 
'shrooms.

And remember:

	tell them a hookas smoking caterpillar has given you the call....


FrankWa

>>    It was the As, but Joser and McGwire weren't in the lineup FWIW....

Why?  Did you want him to get the AL strikeout record in addition to the
no-hitter?

j.

    Jeff,
    
    	Sure!  I also read where Lansford wasn't in there either.....
    	but they let him pinch hit.
    
    Mac,
    
    	Could be but I coulda swore it was *no-hitter* and not *perfect
    	gamme*.........I could be wrong...........I was wrong once....:^)
    
    Claybone

    	The National is reporting that George testified that the reason
    he paid Mr. Spira the 40K was to prevent his family from harm and
    to prevent Spira from spilling the beans on Lou Piniella's gambling
    habits.  I guess if Spleenbender goes down he's taking a former
    manager with him.
    
    				/Don

    At least report the facts, the spilling the beans was only on
    Piniella's betting at the horse track, which though it might not
    be good press is legal.  
    Does anyone find it ironic that if Piniella was such a horse
    player the Reds would have known this and not hired him after
    the Rose scandal.  I think Goerge is making a big deal over 
    nothing.
    
    Jimbo

(Hey Jimbo...long time no note....) 8^)


I liked the way the guy put it on ESPN last night.  He likened it
to one of those old submarine movies where the submarine is getting
the depth charging to end all depth chargings, and they get the 
idea of shooting a couple of bodies out the torpedo tubes to 
make the Japs think that they've gotten the sub. 

He said that the body George shot out the tube was Lou Pinella.
(Guess it didn't work too well....)

'Saw

    Here come the O's.....

    I rate this period as one a the proudest moments ever in Baseball
    History. 
    
    Think about it: Baseball like any game has had its ups and downs.  This
    is especially true the last 20 years or so since the television producers
    started with their meddling.  And other rotten things have beset baseball
    too:
    
    1. A felon was allowed to buy the game's greatest franchise.
    
    2. That felon was allowed to purchase a couple a Titles with American
       Taxpayer cash.
    
    3. New Yorkers, never too proud to endure a little good old fashioned
       socialism, cheered this felon on anyway.
    
    4. Then the felon (who later went on to squander his daddy's fortune)
       fired the guy who spent this money wisely for him so's he was able
       to win these Titles.
    
    5. Convinced at this stage of his life that he had brains (O, Fresh Eyes!)
       the convicted felon then took direct control over the franchise, and
       promptly ruined it.
    
    6. Then the convicted felon managed to form a_unholy alliance whereby
       the ALmost team in the country's 3rd largest market in effect was
       turned into a big league farm club for *his* "team."
    
    7. Too busy to remember to bribe the pseudoconservative RayGun like he
       did the pseudoconservative Tricky Dick, the socialist subsidies stopped
       and his daddy's company went broke.  Stupid but lucky, the team he 
       bought as a toy was now worth many times more than what he paid for it,
       so he propped up his daddy's now-bust company.
    
    8. Then he got the billion dollar TV contract, but refused to spend-to-win
       like he did when he won those first honorless Titles in the 70s, his
       lawyers telling him to hold off till the threat of revenue sharing 
       blew over.
    
    9. But he couldn't wait, so he welshed on the collusion plan that all his
       peers kept their word on, but still the team slid into the toilet!
    
    9. Things weren't all bad, though.  His bribe-giving socialist gig started 
       up again, this time through the U.S. Representative from Tampa and the
       Secreatary of the Navy, and he won a big contract even though he was
       by a wide margin the high bidder!
    
    9. But oooh, another turn for the worst, he caught caught BRIBING again.  
       No, word ain't out on the bid-rigging gig (yet).  The felon has been
       cold-busted paying a gangster to help him welsh a signed contract, in 
       so doing left himself - and the entire game of baseball - wide-open to 
       extortion by this gangster.
    
    9. But lucky for the convicted felon (the socialist-felon, not the gangster-
       felon) is close personal friends with our fine objective new Commish who
       must decide whether to throw the socialist-felon outta the game.
    
    I look for Fay Vincent to slap the socialist-felon on the wrist Dean Smith-
    style, and a year or so later to suddenly purchase the the ex-billionaire
    Donald Trump's palatial Palm Beach pad.
    
    MrT (capitalist & true baseball fan)

    Oh, I forgot the whole point:
    
    	The New York Yankees are now the worst team in baseball, and 
        are a team some consider the most laughable ever, given the
    	amount of money spent on them, the Henderson "trade," etc., 
        and given the CLOPsterism and all the front-office high-jinks.
    
    Couldn't happen to a nicer "team."
    
    Hip!  Hip!  Hooraaaay!
    
    MrT 

    Not to mention that they can't even win their own no-hitters ...
    
    Bob Hunt

    I only caught about 2 minutes of last night's Rangers-Yankees game,
    where the Yanks just scored 2 more to make it 5-2.  I had no idea what
    inning that was, but I don't imagine that the Rangers came back to give
    Ryan his 300th.  And, judging from the lack of replies in here about
    Nolan, he didn't get it, right?  What was the final?
    
    During that little blip that I saw, the announcers kept harping on
    Ryan's back condition.  Which made me think (the unthinkable), will he
    not win his 300th this season, or ever?  I mean, it's possible, given
    his age and the fact that he does have a bad back.  Yeah, he's done
    some incredible things again already this season, and I'd bet that he
    will get #300 soon, but I'm a little worried about the guy.  You know
    he wants it bad.  He's gotta be under tons of pressure, unlike the 299
    wins before.  The added stress does not help the back (I can attest to
    that).  I just want to see the guy get his 300.......
    
    Hawk

    Ryan was taken out of the game after Bob Geren singled up the middle
    driving in runs 4 and 5.
    
    Mark.

Hawk,

He didn't get it. He came out in the 8th losing 7-3. Texas came 
back and score in the bottom of the 8th and make it 7-4. Rag came 
in for the 9th and I dozed off (yankees will do that to ya) with 2 outs,
one on, and the score 7-5 in the 9th. Incaviglia up. 

Woke up to find the score tied going into the 11th.

Don't know who won...

daryll

NEW YORK                                    TEXAS       
                  ab  r  h  bi                            ab  r  h  bi
Sanders cf         6  1  2  0               Pettis cf      2  1  1  0
Tolleson 3b        0  0  0  0               Baines ph      1  0  0  1
Sax 2b             5  0  1  1               Espy cf        2  0  0  0
Azocar rf          4  0  2  0               Franco 2b      5  1  2  0
JeBarfield rf      1  0  0  0               Palmeiro 1b    6  3  3  2
Velarde lf         1  0  0  0               Sierra rf      5  1  1  1
Nokes dh           3  1  0  0               Incaviglia lf  4  2  3  4
Balboni dh         1  0  0  0               Daughrty dh    5  0  0  0
Maas 1b            5  1  1  1               Stanley c      5  0  1  0
Leyritz rf         5  1  1  0               Buechele 3b    5  1  3  1
Kelly cf           3  2  1  1               Huson ss       2  0  1  0
Geren c            5  1  3  4               JoRussell ph   1  0  0  0
Espinoza ss        4  0  0  0               Green ss       1  0  0  0
Totals            43  7  11  7              Totals        44  9  15  9
New York                        100 202 020 00-- 7
Texas                           200 000 113 02-- 9
        E--Green, Kelly. DP--New York 1. LOB--New York 8, Texas 8.
2B--Azocar, Buechele 2. 3B--Sanders. HR--Maas (7), Kelly (5), Geren
(7), Incaviglia (16), Palmeiro (11). SB--Azocar (1), Incaviglia (2),
Sanders (7), Sax (24). S--Espinoza. 
                                 IP H R ER BB SO
        New York 
LaPoint                           6   9   3   3   2   6
Mills                           1-3   0   0   0   1   0
Cadaret                         2-3   0   0   0   0   0
Roseanne Barr                     3   4   4   4   1   2
Leiter (L 0-1)                  1-3   2   2   2   0   0
        Texas 
Ryan                              8  10   7   7   3   9
Rogers (W 4-5)                    3   1   0   0   1   5
        LaPoint pitched to 2 batters in the 7th. 
        WP--LaPoint, Righetti. T--3:56. A-- 41,954. 
        Umpires--Home, Hendry; 1b, Kosc; 2b, Morrison; 3b, Joyce. 
        (Compiled by The MLB-IBM Baseball Information System. Copyright
1990 MLB.) 

    Rags came on in the 8th and gave up a run.  I don't know who pitched
    the ninth for the Yanks, but the Rangers scored another and then Pete
    Incaviglia hit a 2 run homer with 2 outs and 2 strikes to tie the game. 
    Rangers won in the 11th.
    
    The longball killed Ryan last night.  Geren, Kelley, and Maas all
    homered.
    
    The Yanks can't even lose properly.  They spoil Ryan's chance at #300
    and then lose anyway.  For the record, Ryan hasn't lost to the Yanks
    since 1977.  During that time he has 7 wins and 3 no decisions.
    
    Ryan's next chances at 300 are next week in Milwaukee, or the start
    after that against Toronto in Arlington.

    George Brett hit for the cycle last night.........
    
    Claybone

    I don't know if it's been posted in here yet, but Nolan Ryan won his
    300th last night.
    
    					Steve

>    I don't know if it's been posted in here yet, but Nolan Ryan won his
>    300th last night.
    
 
texas won the ballgame 11-3. Ryan pitched 7 2/3 innings. When he was lifted
the score was 5 to 3 mainly because of 2 errors by Franco in the eight inning.
He struckout 8 gave up 6 hits 2 walks and 1 earned run during that time...

mike

    
    Late in the game they focused in on some guy in the stands who
    proceeded to futz with his nose, and then decided to go ahead and
    shove his whole finger up there in front of a national audience.
    I was rollin' 'cause they just kept the camera on him.  I don't
    know who it was, but I'm sure it wasn't Joe Walton.
    
    Boy, this guy won't be able to go out in public after his friends
    send him a zillion copies of the videotape.
    
    Dickster
    

    It was a disappointing finish, but exciting none-the-less.
    
    Actually, Nolan worked 8 2/3 innings.  He pitched ~145 when he was
    lifted.  The Brewers were rallying, thanks to 2 errors that inning by
    Julio Franco.  The Texas manager said enough was enough, Nolan had
    thrown too many pitches already, and wanted to preserve the win for
    him.  Score was 5-3, 2 men on, and 2 outs.  No further runs scored that
    inning.  Brewers fans gave Nolan a great ovation as he walked off the
    mound.  They booed the decision to take Nolan out, and the announcer
    were all over Franco for the dumb errors that led to Nolan's
    earlier-than-should've-been exit......
    
    In the ninth, however, the Ranger got a lead-off homer, 6-3.  Then,
    they loaded up the bases and Franco popped a Slammer to kind of save
    his hide.  Don't know where the 11th run came from.
    
    Very little hullabaloo at the end of the game.  Nolan walks out onto
    the field as Brewers fans again cheer him wildly.  Nolan simply waves
    his cap once as he walks off, then does a quick and simple tv
    interview......
    
    Hawk

    Dickster, I saw that!  What a riot!  And the camera just kept right on
    him!  It was an incredibly feat too!  First the guy uses the tip of his
    pinky.  After he realizes the size of that baby, he switched to his
    index, really jamming that appendage up there, giving it a few
    gyrations all the while!  I was rolling, and thinking of ::SPORTS!
    
    Before anyone chastizes me, this is sports-related.  It happened during
    a ball game, a historic one at that!
    
    No offense intended for public nose-pickers, appendages, and gyrators.
    
    Hawk

    
    The HoF induction ceremony is coming up.  I know of two players
    being inducted Joe Morgan (Reds 2B) not the Sox manager and Jim
    Palmer.  Is anyone else going into the Hall?
    
    /pjb

    I'm sorry, you're right, 7 2/3.  I forgot that they don't play 10
    innings anymore.....  :-)
    
    Hawk

The nose picker was Neil Bush wasn't it?

daryll

    Yes, I was just reminded by a fellow noter offline that it was indeed
    Bush's son "digging for gold"!  HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
    
    Hawk

It looks like Ben McDonald may be the real thing for the Orioles... Won
his third straight decision last night, I believe.

Watch out for the O's.   They might just sneak in there.   

    
    I heard Neil Bush had an F.D.I.C agent with him to blow his nose
    and clean off his finger.
    
    
    F.D.I.C. = Flagrant Digital Insertive Cleansing
    
    Dickster
    

    I thought it was George W. Bush (seriously)  I was almost on the
    floor...

    (continuing the nasal maintenance rathole)
    
         During the classic Borg-McEnroe Wimbledon final a few years back,
    the camera focused on John McEnroe Sr who was also probing the nasal
    cavity.  The camera stayed on him for a few moments before Bud Collins
    quite eloquently commented...
    
    
         "Nice backhand"

    
    Did anyone see the replay of the Mariners pitcher getting hit with
    a line shot off of the bat of Gaetti?  For those of you who didn't
    the ball hit him in the forehead.  After hitting his forehead the
    ball bounce into the stands down the third baseline.  He was down
    for 5 minutes, taken to the hospital for tests and released.  He
    will not miss his next start.

    I saw that two or three times.  But did you see it with the audio
    playing?  The crack off Bill Swift's forehead was louder than the one
    off Gaetti's bat!  Apparently is OK and was released from the hospital. 
    
    	--dan'l

Taking this rathole out of the Big East topic...

>HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Thank you, Fay"                   20 lines  14-AUG-1990 07:36
>                      -< The eye is a more perfect stat >-

It sure is... if the eye is:

	a) trained to know what it's looking at
	b) sees a large sample of all the players involved
	c) is not blinded by bias beforehand

>    It is kind of funny.  I'm getting a good chuckle out of it now.  James'
>    range factor is necessarily incomplete when it comes to describing a
>    player's range, but it is not a bad stat to start off with.

	So then if two players have nearly identical range factors, how
	do you determine that one has far better range than the other?
	The all-knowing eyeball test?   

>  You're touting it as gospel since it backs your man Wade, and I feel confident
>    you wouldn't have brought it to the light of day if it offered contrary
>    information.  

	You're wrong.   I don't seek these stats out of the blue.  Someone
	makes a claim, and then rather than just relying on my own biased
	view, I try and track down some numbers that support it or refute
	it.  In Wade's case, the numbers always seem to be there and the
	Boggs-bashers are left with the hollow park-effects, selfish, 
	no-power, blah blah blah chant.   

	And I know you've just been too busy lately to comment on Wade's
	success in the 3 spot... right?
    
>    BTW, Santos and Brett don't belong on any list of the greatest fielding
>    3B of the modern era, but since you are content with an incomplete
>    stat, it's not surprising that the results you rely are faulty.

	So who did Brett pay off to get all those Gold Gloves... and,
	gee, those AREN't awarded based on fielding percentage or range
	factor... They're awarded using the eyeball test.  

	Where do you place Brett and Santo?  I never saw Santo play,
	but I think Brett was easily one of the best 3B in his prime.
	Boggs is on the level below that.
    
>    Using Range Factor as the only tool to describe range is like using On
>    Base Pct. as the only tool to describe offense.

	So where's the other tools?  And who uses OBA as the sole tool
	to describe offense?   How did a discussion on defense turn into
	offense?  {I guess the same as how a discussion of Henefeld turned
	into a discussion of Wade Boggs}
	
	Fielding, to me, can be measured by range and accuracy.   Range
	equals the number of balls got to, accuracy equals the number
	of plays successfully completed.    Defense also includes the
	proper positioning depending on the batter/situation.  That 
	positioning has a direct effect on RANGE.    So maybe the 
	difference between Boggs and Gaetti is Boggs gets better position
	before the pitch and Gaetti has better reaction after the pitch.
	What's the difference in terms of balls played?

	I think some of you are defining range as how far can a player
	leap and how quickly.  It may look good, but it's the same as
	being in the right position in the first place.

    In his prime, George Brett was a *great* third baseman.  Perhaps only
    Graig Nettles was the better American League third sacker through the
    mid-late 1970s and into the early 1980s.  I liked George Brett better
    because he was a superb hitter and he just *looked* like a ball player.
    
    Mike Schmidt was better than all of them.  One of my friends back then
    tried real hard to convince me that Ken Reitz was better than Mike
    Schmidt.  Hoo boy, my side hurt for months from the laughter.
    
    Schmidt and Brett were the marquee names in the 1980 World Series.  Can
    it really be 10 years ago ???
    
    Bob Hunt

	>So then if two players have nearly identical range factors, how
	>do you determine that one has far better range than the other?
    
    A far more practical question is: if two players have nearly identical
    range factors, should we assume that they have nearly identical range? 
    The answer is no.  Range factor represents the balls played without any
    account for the balls hit in that direction, with the grand assumption
    that it all evens out.  It's a poor assumption.

	>You're wrong.   I don't seek these stats out of the blue.  Someone
	>makes a claim, and then rather than just relying on my own biased
	>view, I try and track down some numbers that support it or refute
	>it.  In Wade's case, the numbers always seem to be there and the
	>Boggs-bashers are left with the hollow park-effects,
    
    You are being self-contradictory.  On one hand you're making a show of
    using an incomplete stat to support your own views of Boggs.  On the
    other hand, you're scoffing at an extremely revealing stat (home and
    away offensive stats) because it directly contradicts your claims.
    
	>And I know you've just been too busy lately to comment on Wade's
	>success in the 3 spot... right?
    
    You tell me: did the Red Sox extended homestand dovetail with this or
    what?  It's more of the same, as 1990 is more of the same, as 1991 will
    be.  Fenway Park is the Wade Boggs legend.  If he played in any other
    park there's probably be 3 notes in 5 years on Boggs, and they'd be
    from the home town fans complaining about his lack of range.
    
	>So who did Brett pay off to get all those Gold Gloves... and,
	>gee, those AREN't awarded based on fielding percentage or range
	>factor... They're awarded using the eyeball test.  
    
    So now you're advocating this method, even though it has steadfastly
    ignored Boggs?  I've already explained this.  Brett was a (the)
    prominent hitter in the game.  In the post-Nettles period, there were
    no great defensive 3Bs, and Brett had improved enough to warrant the
    award in a weak field.  Had he not been such a great offensive player,
    All Star, etc., the award may havemoved around a bit more.  Yeah, he
    was always a cut above Boggs, maybe two cuts considering Boggs was so
    dreadful for his first few years, but I think Gaetti and Ventura (from
    what I've seen) are a cut above where Brett was.
    
	>So where's the other tools?  And who uses OBA as the sole tool
	>to describe offense?   
    
    No one should use OBA to describe offense alone, just as no one should
    use Range Factor to describe defense.  But exactly one of us has made
    that error.
    
    A better analogy is that Range Factor is to describing defense what
    counting base hits is to describing offense.
    
    Unfortunately there are no good tools to accurately describe defense.  I
    would suggest the following as a start:  Count every ball hit to the
    right of the SS - i.e. even the ones he makes the plays on going to his
    right to eliminate his range as a factor.  Really count errors (not
    the Fenway style).  COunt the plays made on hit balls (not assists,
    not putouts, but balls caught off the bat - throwing one away
    shouldn't effect the range.  A first and second, pitcher to third force
    shouldn't effect range.  A man thrown out at third stealing shouldn't
    effect range.  Divide plays made by balls hit and you will get an
    approximation of range regardless of the pitching staff, ball park
    shape, etc.  There is still no accounting for grass vs. turf.
    
    Obviously, I differ from yours and James' view that range is just
    counting the plays made.  I think an accounting of opportunities must
    be done for an added dimension.  And it's one I realize will not be
    done.
    
	>I think some of you are defining range as how far can a player
	>leap and how quickly.  It may look good, but it's the same as
	>being in the right position in the first place.
    
    No, Boggs is no Ripken in terms of positioning.  He almost never moves
    out there, and doesn't even have the confidence in his own quickness to
    play in unless there's an obvious bunt on.  I don't know why his Range
    Factor is higher than his skills would indicate, but I believe it could
    be due to opposing teams loading up with righties against the Sox
    traditionally because of the Wall, and aside from Clemens, Lee Smith
    and Calvin Shiraldi, there have been few quality fastballs thrown, so
    Sox pitchers may get pulled more often than average.
    
    Again, there isn't a better judge of defense than the eye.  It's
    subject to its own set of flaws, but I prefer it to incomplete stats.
    
    Dan
    

   > Fenway Park is the Wade Boggs legend.  If he played in any other
   > park there's probably be 3 notes in 5 years on Boggs, and they'd be
   > from the home town fans complaining about his lack of range.
    
    Listening to Dan speak of Wade Boggs being fortunate in having Fenway
    as his home park, you'd think that is the sole reason Boggs is one of 
    the game's greatest all-time hitters.  The fact is, Boggs has a .322
    lifetime average AWAY from Fenway.  It is true he benefits from Fenway
    to an extent, but it is also true that the majority of MLB players have
    a higher average when playing in their home park.
    
    					Steve

Dan, you forget to factor in percentage of body fat, and bone structure.

A short squat 3B would have less range than a long, lanky 3B, especially
in the diving aspect.

And now TAKING MY TONGUE OUT OF MY CHEEK, I truly think the best 3B
I've seen (excepting maybe Schmidt) was Brooks Robinson.  I wasn't
even an Oriole fan, yet I *loved* to watch the guy play.....

'Saw

    I was watching ESPN Sunday, and they did a little piece on Fred Lynn.
    It was pointed out that he had a lifetime .350 BA at Fenway Park, and
    that the trade to the Angels probably cost him a shot at the HoF.
    
    Funny, but I've never heard anybody in here scream "park effects", or
    overrated when it came to Lynn.
    
    Why ?

    I think the lack of screaming about park effects or overrated as
    applied to Lynn has to do with the fact that he is likable (or seemed
    to be to me) while Boggs is not.
    
    Park effects have shown fairly consistently that most Red Sox hitters
    are overrated because Fenway does inflate batting averages, but Red Sox
    pitchers are underrated because Fenway also inflates runs allowed and
    earned run averages.  This is sort of useful knowledge to know for the
    Red Sox and all teams attempting to trade with the Sox.
    
    John  

>    <<< Note 4.224 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Go Brewers! I'm getting thirsty!!" >>>
>                    -< Lynn used to *love* Tiger Stadium! >-

That game in his rookie season {1975} when he hit three homers and another
ball off the fence at Tiger Stadium made him an instant hero.

He may have been fragile, but he played CF like he was born there.  He
can be on my team any day.

Speaking of H.O.F., Sports Illustrated's baseball column had a breakdown
of current players' chances at the Hall.  They only looked at players who
had at least 12 years under their belt, I believe.    

Definites included:  Nolan Ryan, Rickey Henderson, Ozzie Smith , George Brett,
and Carlton Fisk {I think}.

	It'll probably be another rathole, but Ozzie Smith doesn't deserve
	inclusion in that group, in my mind.   Maybe in the group below due to
	his less than stellar batting for most of his career.  

Borderlines included: Dave Winfield, Robin Yount, Gary Carter

Consideration:  Dwight Evans, Dale Murphy, Andre Dawson

Anyone else remember who was on the lists?  If I were ranking them in
terms of first-ballot, unanimous selection appeal, I'd put them at:

	Henderson, Ryan, Brett, Fisk, Winfield, Yount, Smith, Evans, Dawson,
	Carter, Murphy

>>I liked George Brett better because he was a superb hitter and he just 
>>*looked* like a ball player.

As opposed to Kirby Puckett, who is a superb hitter and he just *looks* like a
ball.

j.

    >...Boggs is one of 
    >the game's greatest all-time hitters.  The fact is, Boggs has a .322
    >lifetime average AWAY from Fenway.  
    
    That's a fact which I've brought to this notesfile many times.  Don't
    spring it out here like it's some skeleton in my closet!  And the rest
    of his stats are extremely revealing also.  We're talking a .322 hitter
    with one other benefit he brings to his team: he walks a lot.  That's
    it.  No power, no ribbies, dismal slugging pct.  And if the last few
    years are an indication, he's getting worse.  If such a hitter were on
    the White Sox instead of the Red Sox, he'd be virtually ignored, and no
    phrases like "game's greatest all-time hitters" would have ever been
    tossed around.
    
    >It is true he benefits from Fenway
    >to an extent, but it is also true that the majority of MLB players have
    >a higher average when playing in their home park.     
    
    What are you, a propoganda machine?  He benefits from Fenway a *GREAT*
    extent, one of the highest I've ever seen.  And when we take all MLB
    players and compare home and away, the difference is negligable
    (something like .264 to .265).  The two concepts don't belong in the
    same sentence.
    
    Dan

    >Funny, but I've never heard anybody in here scream "park effects", or
    >overrated when it came to Lynn.
    
    Well, it's been done, and you've missed it.  The reason it's not a
    recurrent theme is because even Boston fans had to acknowledge that a
    huge chunk of Lynn's greatness was the park, and even those that didn't
    want to admit that were silenced by the hard facts of his stats after
    he left cozy Fenway.
    
    Dan

    Already in:
    
    Nolan Ryan, George Brett, Carlton Fisk, Rickey Henderson, Ozzie Smith.
    
    On the Doorstep:
    
    Robin Yount, Gary Carter, Dave Winfield.
    
    Borderline:
    
    Dwight Evans, Eddie Murray, Alan Trammell, Bert Blyleven.
    
    Not There:
    
    Andre Dawson, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy.
    
    Dan

oh how i miss these replies:


WHAT U MEAN KNOW CLEMENS HE GOT 2 SY YUNGS 20KS BRETT DOSN;T!!

DON'T BLAM ME 

sorry ralph, wherever you are

>            <<< Note 4.230 by HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Thank you, Fay" >>>

Thanks, Dan.

>    Borderline:
>    Dwight Evans, Eddie Murray, Alan Trammell, Bert Blyleven.
>    Not There:
>    Andre Dawson, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy.

I'd order these guys:

	Murray, Parker...gap...Evans, Dawson...gap...Murphy,Trammell,Blyleven

Parker will be hurt by the drug incidents.  Like Pete Rose, he shouldn't be.

    >>...Boggs is one of 
    >>the game's greatest all-time hitters.  The fact is, Boggs has a .322
    >>lifetime average AWAY from Fenway.  
    
    >That's a fact which I've brought to this notesfile many times.  Don't
    
    It may have been a fact that you've acknowledged, but I seriously doubt
    it's one you'd have presented voluntarily.  I'm not much of a stat
    hound but I wonder how many other players in Boggs' era have as high an
    average?
    
    					Steve

    One thing to keep in mind about Dale Murphy is that he's won *TWO*
    consecutive NL MVP awards, 1982 and 1983.   That achievement, among
    others, has helped other National League players make the Hall.
    
    Examples are Ernie Banks, Joe Morgan, Roy Campanella, and others.
    
    Roger Maris and Hal Newhouser also won consecutive AL MVP awards but
    that hasn't swayed the Hall voters to date.
    
    Admittedly, Murphy has declined in recent years but he may also be
    overlooked because of the dismal Braves teams he played on.  Ernie
    Banks may be the best comparison.   Banks played for some horrible Cubs
    teams but got the double MVPs and hit over 500 dingers.   I'd venture
    to guess if Murphy got close to 500, he'd merit a shot at it.
    
    Of course, with his recent trade, I'm looking forward to his next 100
    or so dingers.
    
    Parker is borderline but he has surprised me with his longevity.  I
    thought he was washed up when he left the Pirates but he's now on his
    fourth team and still playing very well.  Of course, the DH helps him
    immensely.
    
    Fisk is a cinch.  An amazing player.
    
    Bob Hunt

    In the SI article, they also gave reasons why they rated players
    as they did, and gave examples.  I was surprised to see Gary Carter
    as a virtually in type guy.  I feel he deserves it, when comparing
    him to other catchers.  If Ozzie Smith goes in, then so should the
    Scooter and Mark Belanger, but that's another can of worms.  
    
    Evans is intriguing - never a 'star', but consistently good numbers.
    How much he benefitted from Fenway, I'll never know.   My complaints
    with Dewey have been he usually has a horrid start (or it seems
    like he does...), and I don't think he's been a great team guy,
    but those are personal observations.   My guess is he'll possibly
    get close, but it will depend who is up for election at the same
    time.
    
    It's possible that a lot of the guys on the possible and not there
    lists will be eligible at the same time - causing many votes to
    be split, and resulting in few, if any, getting the necessary number
    of votes.
    
    Dale Murphy will only make it if he makes a serious rebound over
    the next few seasons.  He's played his way out of serious HOF
    contention.
    
    JD

    re .229
    
    Dan, Lynn also said that he deliberately changed his stroke to fit the
    Green Monster, so it shouldn't be too suprising that he had problems
    after he left Boston (although at least 70% of the majors would love to
    have had his problems), a swing is a really touchy thing ... and of
    course when you mention Fred Lynn, you have to mention the fact that he
    was good for 130 games a year or so ....
    
    It really cracks me up to see you rail against a player who takes
    advantage of his ball park. Lynn did. Hell, more Yankees than I (or
    you) care to count learned to take advantage of the short porch at
    Yankee Stadium. So why not give credit where it's due ?
    
    As for Boggs, the facts show he could hit just about anywhere for
    average. End of subject.

    
    re .230
    
>    Already in:    
>    Nolan Ryan, George Brett, Carlton Fisk, Rickey Henderson, Ozzie Smith.
 
    Ryan's last 5-8 years has earned his entrance, ditto for Fisk,
    otherwise, I'd have to think on it.
    
    As for Ozzie Smith, he has been the premiere SS of his time. And he has
    been a far superior offensive player to Belanger and others. As some of
    you have said, if he gets in, perhaps Rizzutto should be as well, but
    that's not the issue.
    
>    On the Doorstep:   
>    Robin Yount, Gary Carter, Dave Winfield.
 
    Yount has been a very consistent player for 15 years, and if he can
    come up with a couple more MVP type years, he'd be a 1st year lock. It
    looks like he'll be the next player to rack up 3,000 hits. Winfield has
    always been a favorite player of mine, and Carter may make it, but I
    don't know if he really was that great for all that long (I may be
    wrong). He looks a lot like the Fisk of 1985, who didn't really have
    big numbers, but he compiled it by staying productive for a longer
    period of time than most players.
       
>    Borderline:   
>    Dwight Evans, Eddie Murray, Alan Trammell, Bert Blyleven.
 
    If Winfield makes it, Evans probably should, even though he wasn't much
    of a hitter earlier. Evans showed the rare talent of becoming a much
    better hitter as he got older, and he'll wind up with some impressive
    numbers. And he had no peers in right field for a decade. Murray was
    never appreciated in Baltimore, when Cal Ripken was the deity. I hope
    that he can put together a few more seasons like he's having this year
    in LA. Blyleven doesn't deserve to make it. I have a diffcult time
    seeing Alan Trammell in the HoF right now.
       
>    Not There:    
>    Andre Dawson, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy.
 
    Dawson has had a few great seasons, but in many others (often because
    of injuries), he had good, but not great seasons. His career numbers
    are OK., but are they really HoF material ? Of course, if his 1991-93
    seasons are like the one he's having in 1990, he might make it.
    Instead, we might ask, "What If Andre had two good knees ?"
    
    Parker won't lose points because of the drugs (I hope). I'd take away
    points because he positively stunk up the joint in Pittsburgh because
    of drugs. After his MVP year (1978 ?), the 1980-84 Dave Parker was a
    medicore player. (I remember Parker saying later that he had no
    regrets, and that drugs didn't effect him on the field. Bulls**t Dave.)
    His real rebirth came in his hometown of Cinncinnati, and he has been a
    force ever since. But I think his non-performance during his peak years
    will wind up costing him, and that will be a shame.
    
    DrM

  >                                         If he played in any other
  >  park there's probably be 3 notes in 5 years on Boggs, and they'd be
  >  from the home town fans complaining about his lack of range.
    
    One exception to this, Dan.  If Wade had played for the Yankees,
    there'd be several notes in here on how he is the next Mickey Mantle.
    
    Bruce

    	Bob, the DH kept Parker's career going.  Doc, I thought Ryan was
    awesome on some bad Angel teams in the 70's.  If Andre Dawson had
    played his entire career in Wrigley he'd be a cinch for the Hall.
    
    				/Don

Re:.228 

>    No power, no ribbies, dismal slugging pct.  

Dan, I don't know how you rate slg. pcts., but I'd put Boggs in
at least the respectable category.  I've included the career leaders
for the Red Sox through the '89 season, as a reference.

Bob


Red Sox Slugging Pct. Leaders (thru '89) (CAPs = Active Sox player)

Williams     .634
Foxx         .605
Lynn         .520
Rice         .506
Stephens     .492
T.Conigliaro .488
Cronin       .484
Speaker      .482
Fisk         .481
BOGGS        .480
Jensen       .478
D.EVANS      .477
R.Smith      .471
Yastrzemski  .462
Doerr        .461
Jensen       .385

    
    For the life of me, I can't see Wade's average as being "park affected"
    at all. (At one time he claimed "pork affects", but that's history
    now.)
    
    He hits to left, but doesn't reach the wall all that often, and
    gets maybe one dinger a year over it.  Remember too, that the wall
    forces the defense to play in a little closer, and the alleys are
    cut down in Fenway.  The guy gets a ton of hard ground ball singles,
    too.  The guy may be a little shy of 200 hits by the end of the
    year, and I'll opine that given a large park and a pool table surface,
    he woulda had 'em.
    
    Dickster
    

    
    Yeah, and *every* park oughta be surrounded by walls right up the
    the foul lines so we don't have to watch fifteen foul pop outs in
    every game.   How boring....almost as boring as watching pitchers
    trying to hit fer cripessakes. ;-) wink wink nudge nudge.
    
    Dickster
    

    Cain't believe Midnight's commentary on Big Dave.  Doc, may I posit
    a crapulous critique in response?
    
    - If it was so obvious that Parker's on-field performance was affected
      by his coke snorting, then why was his case used as a lever to
      subvert our Constituional right to privacy as a way of ensuring MLB's
      success in the face of these contracts they insist on signing with
      little or no performance contingincies?
    
    - Big Dave is one of them regrettable water buffalos who had a "great"
      late career cuz of the Designated Geek.  In the days of yore, the 
      days of real baseball, Dave woulda been quietly farmed out to peddling
      used cars or insurance in the best tradition of Our Nation's Pasttime.
    
    - The HoF by definition is strictly based on performance.  No player 
      should be blackballed because 'Merica is going through a period when
      it hates its Constitution and feels that celebrity behavior is more
      important than substantive accomplishment.  In other words, Pete and
      Dave shouldn't be penalized for living amidst NeoConMen, Banana 
      Republicans, and buppies.
    
    MrT

    >Dan, Lynn also said that he deliberately changed his stroke to fit the
    >Green Monster, so it shouldn't be too suprising that he had problems
    >after he left Boston (although at least 70% of the majors would love to
    >have had his problems), a swing is a really touchy thing 
    >
    
    What, you're makng excuses for Fred Lynn now?  He didn't stop hitting
    because his swing was messed up.  He stopped hitting because he stopped
    playing 80 games a year in a Park which severely inflated his stats. 
    This is elementary stuff.
    
    >It really cracks me up to see you rail against a player who takes
    >advantage of his ball park. 
    
    You have missed the boat.  I rail against Boggs for the attitude he
    takes to the game (play for stats); I rail against Boggs for his
    shortcomings as a player; I rail against people who blindly compare
    Boggs to other players based on the severely distorted raw stats.
    
    WHen you understand that, you'll see how silly your note was.
    
    Dan

    >One exception to this, Dan.  If Wade had played for the Yankees,
    >there'd be several notes in here on how he is the next Mickey Mantle.
    
    Nah, we'd be saying things like, "Christ, even Celerino Sanchez woulda
    had that one!"
    
    Dan

>Dan, I don't know how you rate slg. pcts., but I'd put Boggs in
>at least the respectable category.  I've included the career leaders
>for the Red Sox through the '89 season, as a reference.
    
    Thanks for the list Bob, but I was referring to his stats when he
    doesn't play in Fenway.  His career "away" SP is around .400, which
    doesn't earn many HoF votes for 3Bs.
    
    Dan

    re .245
    
    I noticed how you distorted my note, and you have raised the art
    selective perception to new highs.
    
    Try following your own advice about sticking to the subject, and reread
    my note, and I might give you a reply (God knows why you deserve one).
    
    re T
    
    T, I don't exclude Parker for his drug use per se (if you removed your
    head from your plate platform, you'd know that I'm all for inducting
    Jenkins), but for the fact (REREAD the note) that he was a medicore
    ball player his last 4 years in Pgh., and FWIW, it was probably due to
    his drug use. Plain and simple, Parker wasn't good enough, long enough
    for the Hall.
    
    Doc

    >Try following your own advice about sticking to the subject, and reread
    >my note, and I might give you a reply (God knows why you deserve one).
    
    Since your last reply was chock full of misrepresentation of the real
    issues and what I have said in regards to them, you have not left me
    hugry for more, and I will decline your humble invitation.
    
    Dan

    >but for the fact (REREAD the note) that he was a mediocre player
    
    >plate platform
    
    I reread the note and the only *fack* that I got out of it was 
    how utterly mediocre the NOTE is!
    
    Mediocre mediocre mediocre medicore mediocre !!
    
    You proved nothing on a factual basis.  No dastisticks (tm), no logic,
    no theoretical basis, just mouf-farts blown from the that overactive
    orifice acting as front man for those guiltless windbagged leather
    lungs you dare call a soul:
    
    You explicitly stated that Pete and Dave should be marked down for 
    having been bad boys.  But you never explained where the HoF was turned
    from serving as a players pantheon into serving as dogooder's dorm.
    I also notice that you've gotten purty facile with them unconstitutional
    drug tests, sold your own out is it?
    
    DrM's Theory of Moral Action in Action: Wade Boggs cain't ever be 
    considered for the Hall of Fame cuz he couldn't keep his johnson parked
    in the garage when it came to that restricted access highway we know as
    marriage.
    
    Khomeinism in action, perhaps?
    
    I demand a_apology for your plate platform slur, Midnight.  Now!
    
    MrT

    I'll give you 8 points for the "plate platform" comment, Doc, but this
    gem from T has to rate a 10!
    
    >You proved nothing on a factual basis.  No dastisticks (tm), no logic,
    >no theoretical basis, just mouf-farts blown from the that overactive
    >orifice acting as front man for those guiltless windbagged leather
    >lungs you dare call a soul:
    
    					Steve

    re .252
    
    You lose again, Midnight.
    
    Next time, pick on somebody your OWN damned size.
    
    Peter Pan, maybe?
    
    Haw haw haw haw....
    
    MrT

    I see that Mr. Selfish played in Oakland last night despite a broken
    toe.

    I see that Mr. Selfish played in Oakland last night despite a broken
    toe.


   which Mr. Shelfish? in either case Boggs is chasing his 8th 200 hit
   season and needs the AB's. If he was leading the league in hitting
   and had about 25 more SINGLES he'd have sat. If we're talking about
   his highness he's after a new contract in a new town so he's after
   big stats this year now that he's pitching up to his potential.
   he also probably pitched cause he knew Henderson and Jose weren't
   in the lineup....

 mike

    re -1
    
    And it Boggsd didn't didnt play it would have been because he doesn't
    hit well in Oakland.  Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

    re .253 (Mr T-ball)

>    You lose again, Midnight.
 
    Again Kemosabe ? Wake up T-boy. I've never lost and never will. 

    And if you keep bugging me, I'll have to slap you down again. And once
    again, I'll do it with a maximum of efficiency.   

    Face Da Facks, you Mr T, have become a caricature of yourself, nothing
    more than a Schneider with a Gluteus Maxmius Implant ....

>    Next time, pick on somebody your OWN damned size.
 
    Perhaps you're right, picking on you is a little like slapping
    Steinbrenner or Dukakis, there is no challenge anymore ....
       
>    Peter Pan, maybe?
 
    Who would know better than you, MrT(inkerbell) ?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!
       
    Dr Midnight

    re .251
    
    T, you still did not apologize for misrepresenting my note. 
    
    And that sir is, a violation of your parole. I think your are
    dangerously close to returning to the SPORTS courtroom.
    
    And then it took 31 words to somewhat counter my 2 word assault.
    
    Doc Wapner

    re .250
    
    Still waiting for your reply Dan ....
    
    As usual (Namath, the Knicks, etc), when the facts are against you, you
    run like Sugar Rim Lennid (tm) and stake a hollow claim to 'victory'.
    
    Shameful.
    
    The Doc

Dr Midnight counterattacks.  Looks reminiscent of the Iraqi tanks
rolling into Kuwait....

Film @ 11

    >T, you still did not apologize for misrepresenting my note.
    
    Wrong culprit, Doc.  When we talk misrepresentation (whether
    creative misreading or flat-out fibbery), we talk Schneid.
    
    I was the one who pointed out your self-contradiction on the
    Dave and Pete matter.  You sound more and more like Clarence
    Pendleton every day.  
    
    Personally, I don't care about Pete's greenies or his greenbacks
    or Dave's flared nostrils or even about Wade's chimichanga.  HoF
    measures on-field fame, not laying Puritanical lame, the two ain't
    the same, it's all in the game, not in the frame, nor in the shame,
    the dame, or the fame, and that you'd make the false claim that 
    anything else is the case is just plain lame !!
    
    >a violation of your parole... dangerous close to returning to the
    >SPORTS courtroom.
    
    Those hollow halls that reverberate with so much contempt?  Fine,
    last time in I a nailed a Criminal Insanity onto ACCrook and 
    thoroughly impugned the credibility of his earnest plodding unindicted
    co-conspirator.  
    
    You seem to've forgot: I wasn't on trial there, Chris Knorr's crossed
    fingers and twisted mores were!
    
    MrT

    
    >    the same, it's all in the game, not in the frame, nor in the
    >    shame,  the dame, or the fame, and that you'd make the false claim that 
    >    anything else is the case is just plain lame !!
         
    The pain of the inane, falls mainly from the insane.
    
                         -Rexter Harrison
    

>    Face Da Facks, you Mr T, have become a caricature of yourself, nothing
>    more than a Schneider with a Gluteus Maxmius Implant ....
    
    Nice shot Doc!

    Midnight, I'll put up with just about any form of insult, but comparing
    me to the weasling wheedling Schneid is NOT a "nice shot," it's simply
    a *cheap* shot.
    
    That was uncalled for.  I expect a_apology.  Either make a clean breast
    of it Doc or I directly compare you to CRUNCH::CATALANO and/or Chris
    Knorr pronto...
    
    MrT 

    Oooohhh, I'm skeered ..... :-)

    >"Clean breast" ? A Freud-T-ian slip perhaps ?
    
    *You're* the one who's persists in talking about my bubble-like
    derriere.  
    
    Look, Midnight: Piece!  (Imagine me holding up the two-fingered "V-
    for-piece" hippie sign to you.)
    
    Talk about my butt, badmouth my thinking, demolish my arguments -
    but pu-leeze, don't, you, EVER, NEVER, even THINK, about comparing
    me to *him* again.  
    
    How long cain you go.
    
    MrT

    >Talk about my butt, badmouth my thinking, demolish my arguments -
    >but pu-leeze, don't, you, EVER, NEVER, even THINK, about comparing
    >me to *him* again.  
    
    Right, that would be like comparing Quayle to Kennedy, and that old
    fart from Texas slapped Danny-boy down when he tried that trick.
    
    Dan

    Gee, I only get a chance to get in here once a week and I can always
    count on Wade Boggs being the center of controversy.
    
    For once and for all I think it should be acknowledged that Boggs is a
    great natural hitter. Sure he benefits from Fenway Park just like Maris
    benefitted from the Stadium. Just like every National Leaguer who plays
    so many games on rugs. 
    
    If Boggs had one great year then I would say he was  Fenway hitter
    only. But he isn't a Norm Cash who hit .362 one year and came back to
    earth for the rest of his career. Cash surely benefitted from Tiger
    Stadium and that one year was a fluke heavily influenced by his home
    park.
    
    Should we chastise every player of the pre-multi park era for playing
    half their games in a unique park? Should Wille Mays have some gleam
    scrapped from his halo because of the short porch in the Polo Grounds?
    Should we take away the legitimacy of Whitey Ford because he pitched in
    Yankee Stadium for half of his games?
    
    Wade Boggs is a great hitter and is smart enough to adapt to any park
    given time. If he were traded to Oakland I think he would still be a
    .350 hitter with less doubles. The guy may have the personality of a
    frog but he is a student of the art of hitting. Any guy who, up until
    this year, was just as dangerous with the count 0-2 as 3-1 is a master. 
    
    And, about his defensive ability. I don't recall Eddie Matthews being a
    gazelle arounf 3rd. Boggs has limited range but also has good hands and
    an adaquate arm. His forte is hitting but he doesn't cost his team
    games in the field. Great hitters and fielders like Robinson and
    Schmidt are rarities. I wouldn't be fool enough to claim that Boggs is
    in the same league with those two with the glove. But he can hit the
    ball more consistently then those two.
    
    {Personally, my favorite 3rd baseman ever was Cletis Boyer, Ken's
    brother. Couldn't hit worth a lick but was a veritable vacuum cleaner
    at the hot corner.}
    
    One final thing. If some folks are still inclined to think that the
    ONLY reason that Boggs has had 7 200 hit seasons in a row is Fenway
    Park then I also better hear, at the same time, that Roger Clemens is
    the best pitcher in baseball!
    
    Rich
    

    Welcome back, Rich.
    
    >If Boggs had one great year then I would say he was  Fenway hitter
    >only.
    
    >If he were traded to Oakland I think he would still be a
    >.350 hitter with less doubles.
    
    Year in and year out with exactly one exception over the course of his
    career, Boggs has done most of his business at Fenway.  What sort of
    statistical analysis are you using to make these fantastic assumptions?
    You can't just wish this stuff away, though from reading through these
    notesfiles over the years, it's not like Boggs' fans haven't been
    trying.  Very hard.
    
    The statistics exist, and they show, as clear as can be, that he owes a
    ton of his success to the park.
    
    >Wade Boggs is a great hitter and is smart enough to adapt to any park
    >given time.
    
    Not true.  Boggs was an immediate success in Fenway, from his rookie
    year onward.  He's a better hitter in the majors than he was in the
    minors, which I reason is because he didn't get to play half his games
    in Fenway in the minors, *even though the pitching is obviously better
    in the majors*.
    
    I know of no evidence to support your assertion.  But there is always
    blind faith...
    
    Dan

            <<< Note 4.270 by HOTSHT::SCHNEIDER "Thank you, Fay" >>>
               -< .320, no power, no speed, avg. defense != HoF >-
    
    Where's the .320 come from, Dan?  Do the members of the Baseball 
    Writers Assoc. only use "away" averages, home runs and RBI's when 
    making their Hall of Fame selections?
    
    					Steve 

    re .270
    
    So Boggs faces better pitching in the majors, hits .340+ lifetime, and
    he's still not a great hitter.
    
    Dan, if Boggs is such a stiff, why can't other hitters do the same
    thing ?
    
    And I noticed that the minute I brought up the park effects of Yankee
    Staidum, you resorted to T-illiogic (tm). Are you willing to try again,
    puny man ?
    
    

    re .271
    
    And Dan, how many other players can hit .320 on the road ?
    
    Leave it to Schnied to somehow belittle a .320 BA into insignifgance.
    
    Doc
    
    p.s. Namath threw 50 more INT's than TD's ....

    >Where's the .320 come from, Dan?  Do the members of the Baseball 
    >Writers Assoc. only use "away" averages, home runs and RBI's when 
    >making their Hall of Fame selections?
    
    In comparing players, it is more accurate.  That is what the Hall of
    Fame is about, comparing the players and weeding out all but the best.
    
    Dan

    >And I noticed that the minute I brought up the park effects of Yankee
    >Staidum, you resorted to T-illiogic (tm). Are you willing to try again,
    >puny man ?
    
    Doc, this is baseball.  Judging by your recent replies, I think it's
    over your head.
    
    Dan

    Hi Dan - Always enjoyed a good retort with you.
    
    Actually, Wade Boggs has expressed anger at the Sox in the past for NOT
    bringing him up to the majors sooner because of his excellent success
    in the minors. Selfish person that he is, he feels the Sox
    unwillingness to promote him sooner will cost him down the road in
    career hits. Although I have no stats at my fingertips, I believe his
    minor league BA at AAA was in the .340's. The Sox were reluctant to
    bring him up because they said he couldn't field worth a damn. It was
    never a question of his hitting ability. That is why so much is made
    about the work he has done on his fielding..
    
    My point about Boggs' ability to adapt is valid, IMO. He clearly proved
    this in the minors when he had his high average at McCoy Stadium which
    does not have the cozy WALL Fenway does.
    
    Boggs has something like a .350 lifetime average at Anaheim. How can we
    explain that? Boggs hits well in Detroit. How do we explain that?
    
    By stance is that Boggs is a smart hitter. A very smart hitter. He saw
    Fenway, his eyes bulged at the prospect of the Wall. He took advantage
    of it by developing an inside out swing. If you will recall, the vast
    majority of Boggs' hits in 1983-1985 were up the middle. By the end of
    '85 he developed a penchant for going to left. From that point on his
    Fenway average strated to skew higher than his away average. 
    
    Since he plays half his games at Fenway, what's wrong with him
    tailoring his swing for the park? If was so damned easy, why don't all
    the rest of the Sox have .350 lifetime averages? It takes an excellent
    hitter to take advantage of the situation. Boggs is an excellent hitter
    who is making the most of a good situation.
    
    Rich
      

    You guys ought to give up trying to convince Dan that Boggs is more
    than just a .320 road hitter.  Face it -- save your breath.  At least
    the rest of us know that there is more to it......
    
    -- dg

    re .276
    
    An excellent reply Rich.                   
    
    However, that was probably a little too much logic for Danny - don't
    expect any hint of agreement or concession.
    
    Altering one's swing is an incredibly hard thing to do. It's hard
    enough to GET into a groove, be it inside-out, pull hitter, whatever.
    And many hitters will refuse to even try to change, for fear they'll
    lose what they have. You see it in baseball, fast-pitch softball,
    anywhere, on any level from Little League to the majors.
    
    For a hitter like Boggs to be able to change his swing and produce like
    he has is really remarkable.
    
    Once again, Dan - you make a big deal out of Boggs exploiting the
    Monster. Just remember that Fenway's right and right center field is
    deeper than many ball parks. Why hit *into* extra outs ?
    
    And Dan, why don't we talk about some of your Yankee idols who have
    inflated their stats by making use of the short porch in right ?
    
    Doc

I don't think it's the closeness of the wall that makes Boggs a better hitter.
How many hits does he get off the wall each year?  Twenty?  Twenty-five?  And
how many of those would have been hits anyway?  Half?   I have no problem 
knocking off 5% of Boggs' hits to balance out the Fenway advantage.

What the wall does do for Boggs, I think, is provide the best hitting
background possible, thus allowing him to exploit his ability to see the
ball and make contact.    

Oh yeah, last night, Sean McDonough mentioned that selfish Wade has been
looking for the walk much less since he was moved to the 3 spot.    Does
anyone know about when that move was made?

    It was about 20 games or so ago Doug. I remeber in last week's Hearld,
    an article pointed out that Wade had driving in 19 runs in 18 games 
    since being moved into the #3 spot. Meanwhile, he was on his usual 100+
    walk pace before the move, now that's in question.
    
    Gee, it looks like another piece of ammo for the Boggs-bashers could be
    headed out the window.

    Going into the series with Baltimore, Boggs was 6-8 with 14 RBIs
    with the bases loaded since moving into the number 3 spot.  I say
    bench 'im.
    
    Mark.

                        G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR  RBI  BB  SO    BA   SP   RP
Wade Boggs 7/27-8/17    17  76   7  30  39  9  0  0  13   6   6   .394 .513  20

13 RBI's in 17 games projects to 125 in 162 games...

Actually, if all that entered into the Hall of Fame voting was 
statistics, and manipulation of them to adjust all players against
some heretofore undefined norm, then why even vote?

Let's just have Fay buy a Cray, get a shitload of the hottest software
engineers around, and start building an AI based expert system which 
will make the HoF picks.

You could crank in all of the eligible players, factor in how many
should enter each year, and then let the Cray do its thing.

After a while some names would pop out and those would be your
inductees.

'Course, it wouldn't count the intangibles like heart, and love of
the game.  You know, those little things that make a man like Yogi
Berra, who runs like he's carrying a stove, make it to the majors.
But hey, those are minor points...

'Saw

    Dan has made the argument before that Boggs is not the ideal hitter for
    #3 in the lineup and I still tend to agree with him.
    
    Guys like Kirby Puckett, Dave Winfield, Joe Carter....these guys go up
    hacking with the bases loaded trying to knock in more than 1 run by
    forcing a walk.
    
    I will acknowledge that Boggs is, uncaharacteristicly, taking more
    hacks lately than he did before. But we all have to admit that Boggs
    was very content in the past to work a walk with the bases loaded and
    down by 3 than he is now.
    
    Perhaps he really covets the idea of being a run producer. However, I
    believe that management points to his RBI stats everytime his contract
    comes up so that may be the motivating factor.
    
    To be fair, perhaps he sees that he can be of more value by hitting for
    RBI's vs walking for them - as the #3 hitter.
    
    In any event, the Red Sox win with the way he's playing now.
    
    Rich
    

    re .284:
    
    Boggs might also be "taking more hacks" this year because HR totals for
    the rest of the Sox team are down significantly.  In the past, Wade
    could take his walk or single to left and count on one of three or four
    heavy HR hitters that followed to knock him in; that's not the case
    this season.
    
    
    py

    So where is Dan coming in to say "Boggs is hacking more now 'cause he
    needs 56 more hits in the next 41 games to reach his selfish 200"...
    
    :-)  :-)
    
    -- dg

being a bogg's basher i have to submit the following theory:

	-- he has no chance for the batting title, but he still has a 
	   chance at 200 hits, thus he doesn't want to settle for walks.

just my anti-boggs biased opinion.

even with all this extra hacking (someone posted his recent stats) he still 
hasn't hit a homer in this stretch.  For a guy that is that gifted as a hitter,
with all that bat control, I still don't accept his low home run totals as 
anything but selfishness (fear of popping out?)

he's a great hitter, boy that hurt to say that, but until he can generate some
power when needed i won't acknowledge him as a superstar, or even a team leader.

    >I believe his minor league BA at AAA was in the .340's.
    
    I don't have his stats handy either, but I feel certain you over-
    estimate them.  His minor league achievement in batting average was
    much lower than his major league achievement.
    
    >My point about Boggs' ability to adapt is valid, IMO. He clearly proved
    >this in the minors when he had his high average at McCoy Stadium which
    >does not have the cozy WALL Fenway does.
    
    There is more to Fenway's reputation as the best hitter's park in
    baseball than the WALL.  Foul territory, good hitting background,
    pitchers pitching affected by the WALL.
    
    If you have Boggs home and away minor league stats, post them... they
    are not as impressive as you seem to believe.  He had a good average in
    his minor league career, probably around .320 or so. 
    
    And he has not shown any abilty to "adapt" to Fenway as has been
    insinuated here.  His home average over the years has fluctuated, as
    one would expect, but has not shown any upward trends.  So while he may
    have changed where he hits the ball (in my eyes nowhere near as
    dramatically as you have put it) his success remains unchanged.
    
    >Boggs has something like a .350 lifetime average at Anaheim. How can we
    >explain that? Boggs hits well in Detroit. How do we explain that?
    
    You pose these as if they are difficult questions which breaks the back
    of my argument.  They don't.  Since Boggs has shown that he can hit
    .380 in Fenway and .320 on the road, do you expect him to hit exactly
    .320 in every other park besides Fenway??  Just as every other batter
    in baseball history, different parks mean different things to different
    hitters.  The effects of a hitter being benefited in Boston, Anaheim and
    Detroit are not unusual.  This is explained by both random fluctuation
    and advantages derived from the park.
    
    An honest assessment of Boggs home and away stats over the course of
    his career - some 4500 at bats by now, so no one can claim the sample
    size is too small - leaves an inescapable conclusion.  I have stated it
    before and you know it well.  It may be "your opinion" that somehow
    these stats are wrong, but I prefer being armed with the facts.
    
    Dan

    How many home runs did Ty Cobb hit? How many HR's did Pete Rose hit? 
    Sorry, Peter, but homers are not the barometer, to me, of a great
    hitter or, for that matter, run producer.
    
    As far as having good HR hitters behind him, the Red Sox of the
    mid-80''s to now have NOT been a very good HR hitting club. Could it
    have had something to do with Hriniak? Other than Greenwell for 1 1/2
    years and the steady 20 or so HR's from Evans, the Red Sox of Boggs'
    time has not been a real terror for smashing them over the Wall.
    
    BTW - as far as Fenway or Wrigley being a HR paradise, anmy guesses at
    which park is yielding the most dingers this year? No, it's not
    Atlanta, either.
    
    Would you believe Riverfront in Cincinnati?
    
    Rich
    

    >You guys ought to give up trying to convince Dan that Boggs is more
    >than just a .320 road hitter.  Face it -- save your breath.  At least
    >the rest of us know that there is more to it......
    
    Don's right.  You really should give up.  The stats say he's a .320
    road hitter over his entire career.  I refuse to believe he's more just
    because in all your opinions he'd "adapt".  If he was going to "adapt",
    he would have already done it by now.  He's had hundreds of at bats in
    every AL park, and if anything he's adapting into a worse hitter
    outside of Fenway Park.
    
    Dan

    I don't know, Dan. I believe you are comfortable with the facts you
    have amassed and I can live with that. I also am of the belief that
    Boggs is one of the premier hitters of all time (belongs in the same
    category with Cobb, Hornsby, Rose) and no argument about the "Fenway
    Effect" will deter me from this position. Pitched balls travel at the
    same speed in Fenway that they do in LA. A poll taken of players say
    that the favorite AL park is KC and LA is the favorite one in the NL.
    If Fenway was such a hitters' paradise, why didn't they pick it?
    
    In addition, for every hit Boggs got as a result of the Wall, small
    foul ground and good backround, he may have lost the same number
    because of the natural turf, no? Would a hitter like Boggs gain more by
    playing on a rug? 
    
    I am not trying to change your mind, Dan. After 4 years in here, I know
    better than that. But I've been watching baseball for *^&% years now
    and to watch a guy with Boggs' talents is truly watching an artist at
    work. 
    
    Rich
    
    
    
    

    
>    As far as having good HR hitters behind him, the Red Sox of the
>    mid-80''s to now have NOT been a very good HR hitting club. Could it
>    have had something to do with Hriniak? Other than Greenwell for 1 1/2
>    years and the steady 20 or so HR's from Evans, the Red Sox of Boggs'
>    time has not been a real terror for smashing them over the Wall.
    
 
 GYMED RICE????

mike    

    Mike, Rice was not the power hitter he once was from 1984 on.
    
    Coincides with Boggs emergence in the AL
    
    Rich
    

    >In addition, for every hit Boggs got as a result of the Wall, small
    >foul ground and good backround, he may have lost the same number
    >because of the natural turf, no? Would a hitter like Boggs gain more by
    >playing on a rug? 
    
    It's quite measurable.  The answer is no.
    
    The day may come when Boggs does sit next to Cobbs, Hornsby and Rose,
    he can have Rose for all I care, and the information flow in baseball
    today can't be applied to Cobbs and Hornsby.  But in my knowledge of
    the history of baseball, there was no dispute that Ty Cobb was the best
    player of his day, and that Rogers Hornsby was the premeire hitter of
    his.  I don't think even you or many other of the "Wade can do no wrong
    Club, Doug Ross, pres." has ever been the best player on the league or
    even on the team.  If I am to believe the story I've been told by his
    obviously deep and loyal fan club, I would find it strange that such an
    alleged great player does not seem to make the impact that great
    players of the past have.  For instance, check the MVP voting.  Even in
    positively his best year, 1987, Boggs was virtually ignored.
    
    So that day may come when Boggs name get uttered in the same breath as
    Cobb and the Rajah.  In my view it will be a grave injustice, and one
    where there is a mountain of information proving the gravity of it.
    
    Dan
    

    Dan - Firstly, I have NEVER - repeat - NEVER belonged to the "Wade
    Boggs can do no wrong" club. I have avered all along that Boggs is a
    great hitter...PERIOD.
    
    He is not a great RBI man, he is not a great fielder, he is not a great
    baserunner. He will never be in the same class as Cobb when it comes to
    baserunning and team leadership. He will never match Hornsby's run
    production and defense. But, when it comes to swinging a stick at a
    pitched ball and having said ball drop in where no other players with
    gloves can catch it in the air, Boggs belongs with Cobb and Hornsby.
    
    Since he has garnered >200 hits for 7 straight years, he is not a flash
    in the pan. He is consistent as hell. I would not want my son to grow
    up and be the type of man that Boggs is. I wouldn't care to invite him
    to dinner. I wouldn't really care to talk hitting with him (give me
    Williams any day for that conversation). He is arrogant and
    self-centered. But I cannot deny him his due as a great hitter of
    thrown baseballs.
    
    And, by the way, how to come to the conclusion that Boggs would not
    gain anything by playing on turf? How is it measurable? Being a spray
    hitter I would think many of his singles would have gotten to the wall
    in Busch, Three Rivers or Toronto.
    
    Gee, this sure is fun, huh?
    
    Rich
    

rich,

armas, and esasky were no sloches; the sox more times than not have been near 
the top in hrs.  


i admit that i'm a boggs basher.  your point about homers being insignificant 
for greatness status though i don't agree with.  it will always be a blemish
for him, just like not achieving 100 rbis in a season was for carew.  agreed
boggs, like carew was, is great at laying the bat on the ball.  however, in 7
years i don't have a sole image of boggs swinging for the fences when the team 
needed a homer, and not a single or walk.  

i'm not denying that boggs is great,  but somehow i have this feeling that 
if someone ever comes along and gets 200 hits for 7 seasons boggs will be 
all but forgotten.  


i have more images of dave henderson winning games than i do of boggs

    You're right Peter.  Baseball needs more Dave Kingmans.

    >And, by the way, how to come to the conclusion that Boggs would not
    >gain anything by playing on turf? How is it measurable? Being a spray
    >hitter I would think many of his singles would have gotten to the wall
    >in Busch, Three Rivers or Toronto.
    
    Stats, stats, stats.  He's got a career of stats which testifies that
    he hits higher on grass than on turf.  I can show you the numbers on
    Monday, if you like.
    
    Dan

    >You're right Peter.  Baseball needs more Dave Kingmans.
    
    If you weren't being so parochial about it, you could see that he was
    saying that analysts shouldn't ignore a player being a zero in the
    single most important offensive category (if winning games is your
    bag).  But most analysts who analyze Boggs using opinion, supposition
    and biased assertion instead of fact do this very thing.
    
    Peter mentioned Dave Henderson, not Kingman, who I agree is a more
    valuable player in terms of winning games than Boggs is.  Ignore
    fielding.  If you take Henderson's .265, 20, 90 and willingness to
    respond to situations, and put it in Boston's lineup instead of Boggs
    .320, 5, 50, Boston will win more games.
    
    Dan

    As Ted Williams has said, the toughest thing to do in sports is hit a
    baseball.  Never mind finding the holes for base hits.
    
    It is quite clear that Wade Boggs has been more consistent than anyone
    this century at getting base hits.  And he may be on the verge of
    doing something nobody else has done in the history of the game.  These 
    hits may ONLY be singles and doubles, but it is a feat that's never
    before been accomplished.  Dan can say all he wants that he benefits
    from a good pitching background, minimal foul territory, pitcher's fear
    of the wall, etc., but HE CONSISTENTLY GETS HIS BAT ON THE BALL like
    nobody else in the game.
    
    He may very well be a self-centered jerk, but I don't go to the park to
    play psychologist, although I do love watching him frustrate pitchers
    by fouling ball after ball off until he gets his pitch.
    
    					Steve

    >It is quite clear that Wade Boggs has been more consistent than anyone
    >this century at getting base hits.
    
    Steve, if you don't like to play psychologist in the park (and when do
    I ever bring up his being a jerk, etc?) maybe you can play one here and
    so a little self-analysis.  Does it bother you that your statement
    above is contrary to the facts?
    
    Dan

    Dan, maybe Steve needs to analyize you and find out why you like to
    hear yourself talk .... because you've been refuted 1,000 times in this
    topic and others, yet your pride won't let you see the truth.
    
    re Boggs/Turf
    
    Be *very* careful with the Turf/Grass BA's. Boggs plays 81 games a year
    in his home park on grass. Moreover, most of the AL parks are grass,
    not the funny stuff, so it's very possible that he could have a higher
    grass BA, but can we really make the assumption that Boggs' BA wouldn't
    be higher if he played on turf regularly, given that he probably has
    twice as many AB's on grass (at least !) as opposed to turf ? I think not.
    
    Try again Danimal ....
    
    Doc

    >Dan, maybe Steve needs to analyize you and find out why you like to
    >hear yourself talk .... because you've been refuted 1,000 times in this
    >topic and others, yet your pride won't let you see the truth.
    
    Only in your mind, Doc.  I'm sure Steve can speak for himself.  You go
    on with your fantasy.  The rest of us will keep talking baseball.
    
    >can we really make the assumption that Boggs' BA wouldn't
    >be higher if he played on turf regularly, given that he probably has
    >twice as many AB's on grass (at least !) as opposed to turf ? I think not.
     
    You think not!  There's a good one.  Leave the statistical analysis to
    people who know what they are talking about.  You have successfully
    demonstrated that you do not.  Batting average is a percentage.  The
    raw number of at bats no difference once there is a decent sample size.
    
    Dan

re; .302

sorry but i can't resist.  look who's talking concerning liking to hear 
himself talk!  what's the team du jour?

>    on with your fantasy.  The rest of us will keep talking baseball.
    
    Is that what you call it?  Sounds like 'talking trash' to me.

    Being away at school for 22 weeks, damned if I forgot my stat books. So
    I must refute some assertions from the gut. 
    
    The Doc (or was it Steve) isn't far off when he talks about Boggs being
    the best in this century. To put it bluntly, the only other player to
    garner more than 7 straight 200 hit years in a row was Wee Willie
    Keeler back in the 1890's. Nobody in the 20th century has amassed as
    many hits as Boggs has in 7 straight years.
    
    Think about that statement a little. Nobody in the 20th century has
    done what Boggs has done. And if he manages 200 hits this year, only
    one other man in the history of mankind can lay claim to his
    accomplishment.
    
    Now, I certainly do not consider Boggs a diety. And there are many more
    players I would rather have on my team than Boggs. Consider McGwire.
    The guy is hitting .217 with over 30 HR's and over 90 RBI's. I'd take
    him anyday. Ditto Dave Henderson or Carney Lansford. Negative on
    Canseco, though. A bigger head never existed. (unless you believe the
    stories Jim Bouton tels of Williams and Mantle)
    
    Rich
    

    Dan,
    
    My statements about him being self-centered and so on, were to point
    out that he is not the consumate team player, and to also point out
    that I do not think he is anyone to look up to (thus I don't consider 
    him some type of deity).  Of course, this is my opinion.
    
    About the statement I made conserning him being more consistent than anyone
    this century at getting base hits, maybe I need a lawyer here to reword
    that sentence.  I meant (and I'm pretty sure Willie Keeler played in
    the 1890's) he's already done something that nobody else this century
    has been able to accomplish, which was the feat of 200 hits in 7 straight  
    seasons.  As you know, he could be the first in baseball history if he 
    turns the trick again this season.
    
    					Steve

    The Blue Jays won the coin flip yesterday for the right to host the
    one-game playoff (if needed) between the Jays and Red Sox.  The game
    would be held on Thursday, October 4th, at 1:05 PM Eastern time, unless
    a playoff is also needed to determine the NL East champion.  In that
    case, starting time for the AL East playoff would be 7:05 PM.
    
    
    py

       According to the Sports guy on one of the local stations last night,
    George Brett has decided to take a seat because "I'm ahead and he
    (Ricky Henderson) should have to catch me."
                                    Denny

    	I've always respected Brett, but this is a chickensh*t move.

>    	I've always respected Brett, but this is a chickensh*t move.

	Agreed but Wadey the Wimp made it fashionable so now everyone's
        doing it. Hey McGee changed leagues to protect his for petesakes..
     
   ;^)

    
    Wade always had the injury to fall back on, Brett has out and out
    admitted that it is because of the batting race. 

Yeah, but Brett doesn't play for Boston... that's the difference.

    
    So Brett is honest and Boggs isn't... what's the difference.  This
    year Boggs got injured, but instead of helping the team and resting
    he's in the line-up because of the 200 hit fiasco... the definition
    of team player NOT WADE BOGGS!
    

> Yeah, but Brett doesn't play for Boston... that's the difference.

  exactly! you guys are already making excuse for ole Boggsie who did
 this gig more than once...

 mike

    
    Brett's taken this thing to the blatant extreme.  Alex Johnson was
    criticized for sitting down for one game in 1970 to win the batting
    title against Yaz.  Brett sat out two games this past weekend against
    lefties Finley and Langston, took the collar against a rookie righty on
    Sunday and then decided he'd better sit the rest out.  He's probably
    been huddled in the clubhouse with a television set monitoring Rickey
    Henderson's every move so that he can get himself in there if need be.  
    Henderson will surpass Brett with either a 2-for-2 or 3-for-4 game 
    this afternoon.  I hope he does it.
    
    Yes, Brett is having a great year personally, but Kansas City has been
    beset with problems of this sort, so I'm little surprised that
    management and the fans are putting up with this.  The fans are the
    ones cheated, missing out on the opportunity to see a great star 
    going for a batting title *on the field*, where it should be won. 
    
    glenn

    re .314
    
    I'll assume you're pulling a Caso with grammar, because Wade has been
    playing for a few weeks now on a pretty aggrvating injury. And he lost
    his chance at 200 hits a couple of weeks ago (to be realistic). 
    
    As for his "selfishness" - who are you going to put at third in his
    place ?
    
    Last question (general) :
    
    Why is it that when Boggs is near 200 hits or some goal, it's a fake
    injury that he's using as an excuse ?
    
    But this year, he has an injury (and 184 hits) and everyone thinks that
    the injury is real, and he's being selfish ?
    
    You bashers need to make up your minds !!!!

    
    Midnight, don't bring logic in here.  Take that kind of thinking over
    to the BASEBALL conference...
    
    Say one thing for Boggs: despite all the fussing over his late season
    injuries or fakery thereof, he's been an extremely durable player.  
    As great a hitter as he is, the same cannot be said of Brett.
    
    glenn
    

    re: Brett
    
    Of course, that's compared to say, oh, Willie McGee in the NL right?
    What do you think about that?  Oh yeah, he's got enough AB's, he
    qualifies to win, right?  What's the difference with Brett then?
    I hope he gets it.  It would be different to have someone win it
    in the 70's, 80's and 90's.  And not letting Rickey win it *might*
    open it up for Cecil winning MVP if he can #50 tonight...

    
    I think there's a little bit of difference between sitting it out and
    being traded by your team.  I don't believe that McGee asked to be
    traded so that he'd win the NL batting title.
    
    glenn

According to Spud, Brett has pinch hit today and has a SF....

daryll

    Numbers being what they are, I feel Fielder will have a good chance if
    he hits #50 tonight.
    
    Voters being what they are, Gruber may get it if Toronto wins the
    division and Kelly does something dramatic to help.
    
    Without either of those two, Rickey will probably win it.
    
    Welch will probably get the Cy just 'cause it's tough to overlook the
    time Clemens lost and the fact that Welch won 27.  If Welch had stopped
    at 24 or so, Clemens would have had a better chance.  Eckersley and
    Thigpen (105 saves between them!!) surely will factor in there
    somewhere.
    
    -- dg

    	Ricky Henderson is the MVP, plain and simple.  Being on a great
    team should not hurt his chances.  27 wins just about guarantees
    the Cy Young for Welsh, but I think Stewart and Clemens are better
    pitchers.
    
    				/Don

    Cecil whacked TWO last night!  51 homers!
    
    Congrats, Walt!  
    
    Lee

    	Why?  Walt didn't do anything!  CONGRATS Cecil!

    >Wade always had the injury to fall back on, Brett has out and out
    >admitted that it is because of the batting race. 
    
    Personally I wasn't pleased that Brett did this, and thus I was glad
    that he came back last night to play and win it right.  But I'd rather
    hear that he's sitting out to win it than hear him make up an injury as
    an excuse and try to flim-flam the public.
    
    Dan

    Can anyone tell me where the integrity chart is?  I wanna look up
    some players.
    
    Lee

    Tom Brunansky of the Boston Red Sox was named the AL player of the
    week.

    >Can anyone tell me where the integrity chart is?  I wanna look up
    >some players.
    
    I keep it here on my office wall.  Feel free to ask.
    
    Dan

	So how much are the Integrity stats skewed by Park Effects???? :-)

JimH

    Yah, Dan's integrity chart hangs on his wall right next to his mind
    reading Yankee cap.

    ><<< Note 4.326 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Dockers... Pants for |CENSORED|s" >>>

    >	Why?  Walt didn't do anything!  CONGRATS Cecil!
    
    Who do you think bought the Stump, slasher?  Don't worry, it's amazing
    what the promises of an autographed /Don workout video can do.  I
    told Stump if it worked for him, it might work for Alvaro Espinoza...
    Oh /Don, can you sign some tapes for me?  I need it for some guy
    I know...
    
    -Walt
    

    I don't like what Bret did, but, he did have more at bats, games
    played, and hits than Henderson....
    
    JD

             <<< Note 4.336 by MPP6::CHILDS "You talking to me?" >>>
                    -< HTH last H for Hurt naturally  ;^) >-


 Well as much as it pains the faithful, it should be reported that BoB Welch
 won this year's CY YOUNG award for the Almost League. Clemens was a distant
 second....

 mike

    
    MrT should be reporting in soon....

>>	Detroit signed Tony Bernazard (why?)

Because anyone who has played a year in Japan is now projected as the next
Cecil Fielder.

    Probably as Fryman insurance if they deal Whitaker.

    Just heard on ESPN that the Orioles have signed Dewey Evans to a
    1 year contract.
    
    Also said was the Sox are now the front runner in signing Welch,
    I think they should sign Clemens before they go throwing a 4yr
    14 mil contract at Welch....where is their heads????????
    
    Signing Roger Clemens should really be their #1 priority.
    
    
    Tom

>    Also said was the Sox are now the front runner in signing Welch,
>    I think they should sign Clemens before they go throwing a 4yr
>    14 mil contract at Welch....where is their heads????????
>    
>    Signing Roger Clemens should really be their #1 priority.
 

	Why can't the pursue Welch while talking to Clemens.  What do you want?
Them spending all their time trying to sign Clemens while every other team
is at the winter meetings trading and talking to free agents.  Then in 
two or three weeks after they've hammered something out with Clemens (which
is not guarenteed to happen) look and see who is left for free agents.  Not
a good idea in my book.

Mike

    I have to disagree with you Tom.  The Red Sox SHOULD go after Welch
    before signing Clemens.  First, it shows Roger that they are changing
    their old outdated manners and trying to build a winner.  Second,
    Roger stated that he wanted to pitch for a contender, if they get
    Welch, they are well on their way to this objective.
    
    No, I'd have to say that signing Welch first would make the signing
    of Clemens easier and you can sign Clemens next week, you can't
    sign Welch next week.
    
    The Wizard

Re:.345

>                      First, it shows Roger that they are changing
>    their old outdated manners and trying to build a winner.  

  I don't see much change.  Let a good pitcher go via free agency,
sign a free agent pitcher. 

>                                                             Second,
>    Roger stated that he wanted to pitch for a contender, if they get
>    Welch, they are well on their way to this objective.

  Signing Welch offsets the loss of Boddicker. It won't make the 1991
Sox any better than the '90 Sox.
    
Bob

 Signing Clemens would be crazy on both sides of the table. From the soxs'
 perspective if he truly is a head case then they should let him go. Also
 if he reverts to be an 18-12 pitcher he'd have to lower his demands somewhat.
 He could blowout his arm with his style. 

 On Roger's side of the table he'd be crazy not to try free agency with the
 spirialing cost of business, if he has another year like this one he could
 go wherever he wants for whatever he wants. Even an off-season wouldn't 
 hurt him in the free agent market because they just brush it off. Only
 gamble he has is injury...

 personally I hope he stays I mean who would I have to pick on and joust
 with you guys about if he was gone?

 mike

    
    
    Every player is a gamble...You can never tell if someone is going to be
    hurt!  Look at Esasky...If the Sox sign Clemens and Welch, they will
    have 3 proven starters...If Harris and Dopson come back, they will be
    able to match any pitching staff in the AL East.  What they need is
    speed and power...Butler and Clark could very well fill those roles.  I
    really think that IF they can sign those players, they will be alot
    better off than last year!  Just one man's opinion though...
    
    
    Jim

    re: a couple back
    
    If the Sox sign Welch, and the Earth DOESN'T blow up, then he will 
    certainly compile better stats than Bods (I'm a Bods fan, too, and I
    don't think that Welch will pitch as well as he did in Oakland, either,
    away from his fave catcher and coach, but he STILL will outperform
    Bods.)
    
    It's interesting: on the one hand, I think that signing Welch will help
    Clemens, for the reason described.  On the other hand, if I was Roger,
    or his agent, I'd be thinking, sh!t, even the cheapskate Sox paid $11m
    for an (older, I believe, and IMO not as dominating) pitcher, I wonder
    why I could get nexted year?
    
    And if the Sox sign Jack Clark, and I'm Roger, I'm saying, whoa, there
    really WAS collusion before - I should get $100 million!  (Remember,
    that's Roger's ego talking :-)...
    
    At least they're keeping the Hot Stove League interesting this year!
    
    ML
    
    As a public service announcement, USA Today has a list of all free
    agents and their known status.  (Of course, I prefer, Paul Goguen's
    listing of player movements in BB_STATS, myself, but the two together 
    are a great combination, 'specially for Rotis. players).
                 

Re:.349

>    If the Sox sign Welch, and the Earth DOESN'T blow up, then he will 
>    certainly compile better stats than Bods (I'm a Bods fan, too, and I
>    don't think that Welch will pitch as well as he did in Oakland, either,
>    away from his fave catcher and coach, but he STILL will outperform
>    Bods.)

  Welch is just a consistent 15 game winner (he's only won as many as 17 
the last 3 years of a 13 year career. His best pre-Oakland win total was 16 
once, and 15 twice in ten years for the Dodgers).  This year was obviously 
an aberration in his career (which he's going to cash in on in a very large 
way). He had the best of everything this year, better than average run 
support, while playing for one of the best all around teams, who play in 
a pitchers park, backed by one of the best bullpens in the league.  Would 
he have won 27 games for any other team?  No, and he couldn't have won 20 
for the Sox, pitching in Fenway, with a mediocre bullpen to back him up.

  If Welch does sign with the Sox, look for Boddicker to compile better
stats. If they both pitched for the same team, their stats would be very 
similar.

Bob
 

    After Clemens' comments about Welch during the ALCS, it'll be REAL
    interesting to have them as teammates!
    
    Mike

    Tony LaRussa has said that he would like to have Clemens on his team -
    this was after the ALCS.
    
    It's amazing what can happen to rivalries/hostilities when players
    become teammates.

    re .352
    
    Perhaps a glass of Texas Buttermilk!
    
    I'll get the recipe and put it in here for the sports in the crowd.
    
    Bob V.
    

    
    The only ones from Texas who drink buttermilk are steers and... oops,
    gotta go, I got a phone call.
    
    Dickster
    

>  Welch is just a consistent 15 game winner (he's only won as many as 17 
>the last 3 years of a 13 year career. His best pre-Oakland win total was 16 
>once, and 15 twice in ten years for the Dodgers).  

	Sure 27 wins was an aberation but how many consistent 15 game winner 
are there in the league.  Take a look at how many pitchers have won 15 or more
the last three years.  It's not a hughe list.

>    
>    It's amazing what can happen to rivalries/hostilities when players
>    become teammates.

	just ask Chries Nilan.

mc