Conference 7.286::red_sox

  Columbus touched up Jeff Suppan for about 5 runs yesterday pitching for AAA
Pawtucket. Actually it wasn't as bad as it first looked, he gave up something
like 2 runs through 6 innings then gave up 3 in the 7th. 

  As of 1:18 today Columbus leads Pawtucket 2-0 with Mimbs pitching for
the PawSox.

  George

  Jeff Suppan got hammered pitching for Pawtucket yesterday. Something like 7
runs in 7 innings. 

  According to the Boston Globe we probably won't be seeing Brian Rose on the
big league club this year. Seems the Red Sox were late signing him after the
'94 draft so as a result if he stays in the minors he won't have enough time to
be eligible for the expansion draft this winter. From what they said it sounded
like he would be eligible if they brought him up. 

  Carl Pavano and Saddler are eligible. Pavano is scheduled to finish his rehab
in Ft Meyers and will probably go to Pawtucket. Saddler seems to have started
hitting. He's playing 2nd base just about every day. 

  George 

    re:666.1 who is this guy Mimbs?
    
    Bill		

  There seem to be two Mimbs at the upper levels of pro ball. There's a Michael
Mimbs playing for the Phillies, it's probably not him. 

  Then there is a Mark Mimbs who was a Non-roster invitee to the Red Sox Camp
this spring. He's probably the same Mark Mimbs who spent last year with the AAA
Albuquerque Dukes of the Pacific League. That's the Dodgers AAA team. Here's
how that Mark Mimbs looked mid season. For some reason I didn't pull any
numbers after that. 

                                  W  L    ERA   G SV  IP     H   R  ER  BB  SO
   *Mimbs, Mark              .... 5  6   5.25  25  0  97.2 112  70  57  27  81

  George

    
    As a matter of fact, and from the FWIW category, when Shawn got to play
    w/ the BIG boys Mark Mimbs was one of the two Sox pitchers he got a
    hit off of...Maddox was the other.
    
    Ed
    p.s. Don't ask how the boy is doin'...it ain't good...off to another
    slow start.  The only category he's leading the league in right now
    is KO's.

  Well Carl Pavano finally pitched for Pawtucket last night. I'm pretty sure
it was his 1st outing. Anyway he got hammered, 4 innings, 11 hits, 10 earned
runs.

  Oh well, he is coming off some sort of rehab and it was one of if not his
first start at that level. On the plus side he had 2-3 K's and only walked a
couple.

  Rose had another good outing over the weekend, he seems to be coming along
pretty well.

  George

    
> On the plus side he had 2-3 K's and only walked a couple.
    
    George, you're really stretching it when you point out a 1/1 K/W ratio
    as a plus side... B^)
    
    Joe

  I think it was 2 walks, 3 Ks in 4 innings.

  Point is, a lot of guys getting hammered in their 1st game at the AAA level
would have panicked and completely lost the strike zone. He seems to have
stood in there and took his beating without losing his cool.

  George

	Yeah.... he kept his control so good that the ball flew right down the
middle of the plate! :-)

  Hey, give the kid a break. It was his 1st time out.

  I bet he does better as the summer goes along.

  George

    
    
       Can't do much worse...

    
    
     Now Chappy leave George alone.  According to all reports Pavano will
    be a mainstay in the Sox Championship rotation in the year 2000. 

  Here's what Stats Inc's Scouting Notebook has to say about Cal Pavano:

  "After getting himself into much better shape over the off season, Pavano
   became one of the game's best pitching prospects last year. He throws a
   90-MPH sinking fastball and a good offspeed pitch. His control is remarkable
   as is his durability. He's looked upon as one of the jewels of the Boston
   system, and he'll be called up as soon as he shows he's capable of handling
   the jump."

  George

  Brian Rose pitched another gem for Pawtucket going 7 innings giving up 5
hits, one run, 7 KOs, not many walks.

  George

  Well he did come around. Cal Pavano pitched 6 innings for Pawtucket yesterday
allowing only 3 hits, 1 run with no walks and 6 KOs. 

  That's more like it,
  George

  Just pulled these from the net: Pawsox Pitchers:

                                       PAWTUCKET RED SOX   
                                  W  L    ERA   G SV  IP     H   R  ER  BB  SO
    Blais, Mike              .... 1  4   6.00   8  0  12.0   7  11   8   8   9
   *Grundt, Ken              .... 0  0   2.79  13  1   9.2   7   4   3   3   8
    Hudson, Joe              .... 1  0   2.19  12  1  12.1   9  10   3  12   8
    Lacy, Kerry              .... 1  1   5.59   9  5   9.2  12   7   6   6   7
    Mahomes, Pat             .... 0  0   4.50   1  0   2.0   2   1   1   3   3
   *Mimbs, Mark              .... 3  4   4.89   7  0  38.2  42  26  21  19  38
   *Orellano, Rafael         .... 3  2   4.54   6  0  35.2  29  20  18  18  22
    Pavano, Carl             .... 1  1   7.80   3  0  15.0  18  13  13   3  14
    Peterson, Dean           .... 0  0   0.00   1  0   1.0   0   0   0   1   1
    Rose, Brian              .... 5  0   2.08   7  0  52.0  43  13  12  13  26
    Suppan, Jeff             .... 3  1   4.54   6  0  39.2  34  21  20  12  26
    Valdez, Carlos           .... 0  0   5.63   9  0  16.0  15  12  10  15  12

  Suppan seems about due to pitch. Pavano had that one bad game, he must have
had another but hopefully he's come around now. Even through the bad time he
seems to have kept his control and 1 KO/Inning. Now he's getting guys out as
well.

  Take a look at Rose, 5-0, 2.08 ERA. He's not a fastball pitcher so you don't
get the Ks but he does seem to be effective.

  George

  Here are the hitters:

                                PAWTUCKET RED SOX   
                                      AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
    Benjamin, Mike, SS           ... .244  78   6  19  3  0  2   8   5  14   3
    Bennett, Gary, C             ... .159  44   3   7  1  1  0   4   4  14   0
   *Carey, Todd, 1B              ... .172  93  10  16  4  0  5  19  10  20   0
    Hyzdu, Adam, OF              ... .282 110  17  31  2  0  6  22  16  38   4
    Malave, Jose, OF             ... .257 101  21  26  5  1  4  15  15  14   3
    McKeel, Walt, C              ... .292 106  14  31  8  0  4  15  12  19   0
   *Nixon, Trot, OF              ... .163  86  10  14  0  0  2   8  14  17   3
    Pozo, Arquimedez, 3B         ... .220  91  13  20  4  0  8  15   7   8   1
    Rodriguez, Tony, SS          ... .284  81   9  23  5  0  1   7   8  17   3
    Sadler, Donnie, 2B           ... .155 103  16  16  1  0  3  10  18  29   4
   #Tavarez, Jesus, OF           ... .297  91  23  27  2  2  2   8  16  14  11
   *Williams, Juan, OF           ... .184  49   7   9  3  0  1   5  11  23   1

  Adam Hyzdu seems to be the real thing. I remember seeing him play for Trenton
last year, he was doing well there and now he seems to have adjusted to AAA.

  Walt McKneel finally started hitting last year in AA and has kept it up. He
can catch or play 1st. At 25 he's a little old to be considered a hot prospect
but Stats Inc figures him to have a shot at doing well in the majors and
figures him at least as the Red Sox back up catcher. 

  Hard to say what's up with Sadler and Nixon. Their BB:SO ratios don't look
that bad. Sadler's is a little weak for a guy without power but Nixon seems
to understand where the plate is. Now if only he'd hit the ball.

  As for the other guys who seem to be doing well in Pawtucket, Jesus Tavarez
was a backup defensive outfielder for the Marlins last year. He's 26. Tony
Rodriguez is also 26 but probably doesn't have much of a major league future.

  George 

                                       AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
    *Nixon, Trot, OF              ... .163  86  10  14  0  0  2   8  14  17   3
    
    How come Trot Nixon's stock has slipped so far??
    Is he battling injuries, or has he reached a plateau on being
    abe to hit AAA pitching?
    
     2
    b

>    How come Trot Nixon's stock has slipped so far?
>    Is he battling injuries, or has he reached a plateau on being
>    abe to hit AAA pitching?
    
    If the minor-league numbers are to be believed, he's never been able to 
    hit professional pitching, at least not well.  He did have the back 
    problems, but after 4-5 years now, I've pretty much given up on him
    being the hitter that the Sox felt he'd be, drafted #7.
    
    glenn
    
    

  It may well be that the back injury messed him up. Then again some prospects
just don't develop the way others do.

  There is one bright spot, last year in AA he struck out a lot. This year he
seems to have better command of the strike zone. Maybe they have him working
specifically on watching pitches rather than trying to hit although it seems
that type of exercise would take place below the AAA level.

  George

    Well the infrequent times I've seen him on tv either at a 
    Paw-Sox game, or when he came up last fall (he did stop up
    for a short while last fall didn't he?), he seemed like the
    slim-build. Is he swinging from the end of the bat, or is
    there a possibility that a hitting coach hasn't tried suggesting
    things like using a lighter bat, (and he's refusing suggestions
    like this, with the stock answer..."my swing isn't any different
    when I was in High School, and I'm not physically stronger, so
    why should I change my bat weight?"). AA pitching isn't severely
    different from very top level quality High School pitching, but AAA is
    a lot different.
    
     2
    b
    PS: BTW who's the hitting coach at Pawtucket?

                     
>    AA pitching isn't severely
>    different from very top level quality High School pitching, but AAA is
>    a lot different.
    
    I'd dispute that.  AA pitching is orders of magnitude closer to AAA
    than high school.  Even low-A ball pitching is well well above high
    school pitching.  Unless by "top level quality" you mean the 1-2 
    pitchers from the league that will ever see any pro ball, much less
    AA.  There are only ~300 pitchers in each of MLB, AAA, and AA; about 
    a thousand total.  That's a very small talent pool.
    
    Lots and lots of great high school hitters wash out in low A ball.
    It's not unusual.
    
    glenn
    

    I read somewhere that approximately 2% of the players who sign a
    professional baseball contract ever make it to the major leagues.  And
    that includes those very marginal players who might make it up for the
    proverbial cup of coffee at the end of a season.  That's a lot of
    players churning around at the lower levels of baseball.  Dennis
    Livingston was a local pitcher [Reading?] who was a very high draft
    choice of the Dodgers.  I think he made it as high as AAA, but his work
    ethic didn't carry him through to the show.  Last I read, he was a
    house painter.
    
    	Ted

    I seem to recall very poor numbers by Fred Lynn at the same age
    although Fred posted a poor senior year at SC and a low b.a. at AAA.
    Then he lit up spring training in 1975.

>    I seem to recall very poor numbers by Fred Lynn at the same age
>    although Fred posted a poor senior year at SC and a low b.a. at AAA.
>    Then he lit up spring training in 1975.
    
    I don't know what Lynn did at AAA (can find out though) but he was 
    only 23 when he lit it up in 1975.  The Trotster is already 23, and 
    apparently headed nowhere fast, with much more pro experience under his
    belt than Lynn had (and college ball was frowned on in Lynn's day more 
    so than today).  Problem is, with hitters, great late-bloomers are 
    almost entirely non-existent (even the late MLB starters like Boggs 
    were held down for other reasons, like defense), and Nixon's pro track 
    record is not good.
    
    glenn
    

	Well, I seem to remember Carlton Fisk as being a very poor .200 hitter 
in AA ball.  Got better in AAA ... and developed into a great hitter in the 
Pros.  A lot of pitchers in A and AA ball are still Throwers NOT Pitchers. 
Hitters are in the same catagory.  As you advance, you must get more 
intelligent in your hitting or else you are just hitting the pitchers pitch 
(even if it's a stike) more times than not. You must know your limitations as 
a hitter (what type/location you hit for power - what consistently gets you 
out - what the pitcher throws well/not well) and apply that thinking to every 
AB. I don't think Trot's got that down yet.  A lot of guys who were great 
hitters in High School and College have gotten by on physical skill only and 
for some that's enough (Case in point - Jim Rice).  99% of the rest of them 
need to apply their brains as much as their brawn.  A great example of that 
would be Paul Molitor (Twins) .... also, read Ty Cobb's book.  Cobb's 
intelligence was as much a factor in his greatness as his intensity.  He was 
an incredible processor of information and used it to his advantage.  Trot may 
have the physical skills but he doesn't have it upstairs and he doesn't seem 
to be able to take coaching.  Too bad.

	Chuck

    
    
      Carl Pavano latest line....
    
    
     5 2/3 IP
     7 hits
     5 runs
     1 K
     2 BB.....
    
    George must have forgotten to post this.....:

  Oops, Chap forgot to mention that he got a W in that game.

  One of those slugfests. He's young, he probably lost his concentration.
In general, Suppan, and Pavano are up and down a bit while Rose continues
to pitch really well. The coaches seem to have them all working on things
and they all seem to be progressing. After all for Pavano who's coming off
an injury and Rose this is their 1st shot at AAA. Give'em time.

  George

    >I'd dispute that.  AA pitching is orders of magnitude closer to AAA
    >than high school.  Even low-A ball pitching is well well above high
    >school pitching.  Unless by "top level quality" you mean the 1-2
    >pitchers from the league that will ever see any pro ball, much less
    >AA.  There are only ~300 pitchers in each of MLB, AAA, and AA; about
    >a thousand total.  That's a very small talent pool.
      
    That's what I'm referring to, the 1-2 pitchers in a HS league who made
    all-scholastic, all-this, all-that. The ones who individually stand
    out. These are the "naturals".
    The rest, as you mention, and I agree are just fodder compared
    to even "A" ball.
    
     2
    b

 >   That's what I'm referring to, the 1-2 pitchers in a HS league who made
 >   all-scholastic, all-this, all-that. The ones who individually stand
 >   out. These are the "naturals".
 >   The rest, as you mention, and I agree are just fodder compared
 >   to even "A" ball.

It's a lot tougher than even that.  I was an all-state miler in high school 
and was often asked if I'd ever run in the olympics.  I'd say sure; if 
about 5000 other guys all got hurt right around the time of the trials.

In major league baseball there are 300 pitchers (or at least so called 
pitchers).  Being generous I'll say they are all from the US and they range 
in age from 23 to 37 (or they cover 15 years).  That means there are about 
20 pitchers from each high school class (300/15).  There are probably 1000 
all-league pitchers each year  (50 states x 10 leagues x 2 pitchers).  1 
in 50 all-league pithcers make it.  1 guy from every 2 states makes it a 
year!  Most folks don't get how tough a climb it is.  

So at AAA or better there are twice as many folks so we're up to one guy a 
state.  These guys are 6-sigma types; even Ricky Trilick!

Greg

    I don't see every game but Trilecek wasn't that bad.  He always came in
    with that face (Barnicle actually complimented him) and attitude.  I
    wish him well and think he'll do well.
    
    Greg, anything under 5 minutes is terrific but when you throw in the
    Kenyans, North Africans and Europe... isn't 5k a little low :-)

  Jeff Suppan has found the touch once again. He pitched a 7 inning complete
game shutout for Pawtucket yesterday, 1st game of a double header. I think
he gave up 3 hits, walked one.

  George

    
> Jeff Suppan has found the touch once again. He pitched a 7 inning complete
> game shutout for Pawtucket yesterday, 1st game of a double header. I think
> he gave up 3 hits, walked one.
    
    Bring him up.  Starting or long relief, there's plenty of work, plenty
    of innings.  The pressure level is down, might as well come back up and
    learn against the best.
    
    I expect this recall any day now...
    
    glenn
    

  I'm guessing you won't see Suppan in the Majors until they feel he's ready
AND have a spot for him as a regular starter. With Avery coming back late next
week that doesn't leave much room. 

  If no one goes down long term I think the only way Boston will see Suppan is
if they move Hammond and Wasdin to the Bull Pen and bring him up to pitch as a
5th starter. Even then they'd probably try to pick a time when the schedule was
tight with makeups and double headers and he'd get regular starts.

  George

  Another good outing for Pawtucket last night by Jeff Suppan. Something like
seven innings pitched, as many hits, not many runs.

  In general Pawtucket's look'en pretty good. It's hard to get reports on AA
Trenton but from the looks of their record they are doing really well.

  Here are the AAA pitching stats from USA Today's WWW page. Pavano seems to be
improving. Those numbers look kind of grim but he has pitched better his last
couple times out. 

                                   PAWTUCKET RED SOX   
                                  W  L    ERA   G SV  IP     H   R  ER  BB  SO
    Blais, Mike              .... 1  4   5.54   9  0  13.0   8  11   8   8  10
   *Eshelman, Vaughn         .... 0  1   4.95   5  1  20.0  19  11  11   7  18
    Hudson, Joe              .... 1  0   1.65  16  4  16.1   9  10   3  14  10
    Mahomes, Pat             .... 1  1   6.00   4  0   9.0   9   6   6   7  10
    Meacham, Rusty           .... 1  0   0.00   2  0   1.1   2   0   0   0   1
   *Mimbs, Mark              .... 3  5   4.91   9  0  47.2  54  33  26  24  44
   *Orellano, Rafael         .... 3  2   4.34   8  0  47.2  35  26  23  29  30
    Pavano, Carl             .... 3  1   6.26   5  0  27.1  33  20  19   6  23
    Rose, Brian              .... 6  0   1.88   9  0  67.0  57  16  14  13  36
    Suppan, Jeff             .... 4  1   3.52   8  0  53.2  43  22  21  15  34
    Valdez, Carlos           .... 0  0   4.87  13  0  20.1  18  13  11  16  17

  And the hitters:
    
                             PAWTUCKET RED SOX   
                                      AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
    Benjamin, Mike, SS           ... .245 102  11  25  4  0  4  11   7  19   4
    Bennett, Gary, C             ... .186  59   4  11  1  1  1   5   6  18   0
   *Carey, Todd, 1B              ... .167 120  12  20  4  0  6  21  11  29   0
    Hyzdu, Adam, OF              ... .273 139  21  38  3  0  7  25  21  47   6
    Malave, Jose, OF             ... .281 139  34  39 10  1  9  28  20  21   3
    McKeel, Walt, C              ... .254 142  18  36  9  0  4  16  20  24   0
   *Nixon, Trot, OF              ... .154 117  15  18  1  0  4  15  21  20   3
    Pozo, Arquimedez, 3B         ... .258 128  21  33  7  0 12  29  11  17   1
    Rodriguez, Tony, SS          ... .275 109  13  30  5  0  1   8   8  20   4
    Sadler, Donnie, 2B           ... .222 144  25  32  4  1  5  16  27  40  10
   #Tavarez, Jesus, OF           ... .244 135  30  33  3  2  3  11  20  22  15
   *Williams, Juan, OF           ... .208  72  11  15  3  0  3   9  16  29   1
  
  And here's AA Trenton. At 27-17 they are 1st in their division, 2nd overall
behind the Marlin's AA squad. Anyone know anything about these guys?

                                       TRENTON THUNDER     
                                  W  L    ERA   G SV  IP     H   R  ER  BB  SO
   *Barkley, Brian           .... 5  1   5.53   9  0  55.1  58  34  34  25  44
   *Betti, Rick              .... 1  0   3.71  13  1  17.0  11   8   7   4  13
    Farrell, Jim             .... 4  3   5.96   8  0  48.1  56  34  32  19  30
    Fernandez, Jared         .... 1  2   5.22   9  0  58.2  65  40  34  38  36
   *Gonzales, Frank          .... 3  1   4.38  13  2  24.2  25  13  12  13  14
    Haynes, Heath            .... 1  1   2.36  14  2  26.2  26   8   7   8  26
    Hecker, Doug             .... 1  0   1.80   2  0   5.0   3   1   1   5   4
   *Mahay, Ron               .... 2  2   4.50   4  0  20.0  16  12  10   5  23
    Munro, Peter             .... 4  2   4.34   9  0  56.0  50  28  27  17  50
    Peterson, Dean           .... 1  1   5.09  13  1  23.0  27  13  13  11  26
   *Ramirez, Felix           .... 0  0   7.62   3  0  13.0  15  13  11   2   6
    Tweedlie, Brad           .... 3  2   2.45  18  2  18.1  10   6   5  16   9
    Yennaco, Jay             .... 0  2   7.36   2  0  11.0  17   9   9   5   7

                             TRENTON THUNDER     
                                      AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
   *Abad, Andy, 1B               ... .304 135  31  41 11  0  6  17  28  24   2
    Borrero, Richie, C           ... .221  68   9  15  3  0  0   5   2  17   1
    Brown, Randy, SS             ... .305 154  28  47  7  4  8  38  13  41   3
    Bryant, Pat, OF              ... .272 125  24  34  6  0  6  24  17  20   4
    Coleman, Michael, OF         ... .327 147  26  48  5  2  9  29  20  33   8
    Correia, Rod, 2B             ... .342 152  30  52 14  1  6  25  15  21   3
    Depastino, Joe, C            ... .228 101  23  23  5  1  4  22  14  17   1
    Derosso, Tony, 3B            ... .203  79  15  16  5  0  3   8  10  29   3
   #Fuller, Aaron, OF            ... .268 149  34  40  5  2  2  21  29  28  18
    Gibralter, David, 1B         ... .308 120  27  37 12  1  8  29  16  25   1
    Jackson, Gavin, SS           ... .270  74  12  20  4  0  1  11  13   9   1
    Merloni, Lou, 3B             ... .352 145  23  51  8  2  4  24  14  26   1
    Ortiz, Nick, 2B              ... .286  77  14  22  7  0  4  15   5  16   1

  George

  Brian Rose won another one. I think that's 7. He gave up 6 hits and 3 runs
in 7 innings.

  The Globe is saying Jeff Suppan may come up and start Saturday in New York.
Wadsin pitched 3 innings in relief yesterday and Steve Avery seems headed
to Florida for Rehab so they are running out of starters.

  George

    
    .35
    
    	Thanks for the stats, George...
    
    	Rose, Suppan and Pavano look to be big league material...with
    Pavano you have to look past the ERA.  What strikes me is the 3.83
    strikeout to walk ratio.
    
    	Colemans stats at the AA level caught my eye as well...where did he
    come from???  I haven't heard a thing about him...
    
    Rick

    Coleman is a CF who turned down a football scholarship from Alabama to
    sign with the Sox. He's on a pace for at least a 20 sb/20 HR pace. He's
    another legit prospect.
    
    Mike

                                    
>    Coleman is a CF who turned down a football scholarship from Alabama to
>    sign with the Sox. He's on a pace for at least a 20 sb/20 HR pace. He's
>    another legit prospect.
    
    Yeah, Michael Coleman is fast becoming the Sox' best everyday playing 
    prospect.
    
    It occurs to me that per billte's complaint that the Sox aren't
    properly building a team where they should be, i.e. up the middle, 
    that Duquette's top draft picks and/or prospects in his tenure with 
    the Sox have been Garciaparra (SS), Sadler (2B), Coleman (CF), and
    starting pitching.  If anything, the Sox' system is lacking for 
    hitters.  Maybe even desperately lacking...
    
    glenn
     

    I don't think the Sox have a pure power hitter in the system although
    Cole Liniak may turn out to be. Michigan probably has the most hitting
    prospects of all the team although I like Trenton's hitters. I agree
    that the Sox are building strength up the middle in the Minors
    especially at SS. That is something DD likes to do is pick SS. Usually
    in HS and colleges is where you find the best fielders and atheletes.
    And if you look at the Red Sox with Cordero, Naehring, and Valentin all
    coming to the majors as SS you can see why. They usually can adopt to
    other positions. Also Sadler was a SS until this year. 
    
    Mike

  More word that Jeff Suppan is headed to the majors. Rumors seemed to have
been confirmed that he'll joint the big league club in New York and pitch
Saturday.

  The Boston Sports press is at it already. Larry Whiteside had some phrase to
the effect that Suppan's would have the responsibility of improving the
pitching staff. At this point they should be thinking development. 

  Another decent outing by Pavano. Seven shut out innings then he gave up two
runs in the 8th that tied the game. The Pawsox won in 10.

  George 

    Suppan will be moving up and pitching this weekend for Boston. 
    Pavano pitched last night for the PAWSOX and won 3-2. he went 7-2/3 
    giving up 2 runs 0 ER, 5 hits, 2 Walks, 4 k's.
    
    Mike

    
    
    
         Speakin of Free Agents??? (You mean we weren't) Interesting
    reading in the Herald today on how Justice and Grissom both have no
    trade clauses in there contracts they just signed, but that no_trade
    clause is just to one team. THE BOSTON RED SOX!!!
    
         It seems the word is already out. Free Agents are not gonna come
    while Dan the Man is in charge. 
    
         It takes more than a good farm system to win a championship. Any
    comments George?????
    
    
    
    Chap

  I believe about half of what I read in the Boston Globe. I believe nothing of
what I read in the Boston Herald and in fact refuse to allow to darken my door
step. In any event I find it hard to believe players would include teams like
Boston in a no trade clause while at the same time being willing to go to a
team like the Phillies.

  And even if that clause does exist all that means is that players don't want
to get sent to Boston before Duquette has finished his rebuilding project. Once
the players start coming up and show some signs of big league talent players
will be more than willing to come to Boston. 

  It's all a matter of timing. For a player who's at his peak and wants a World
Series win, the time to get on a winning team is now. Signing with a rebuilding
team is just a waste of your last few really good years. On the other hand for
fans, rebuilding is worth the wait since it's rebuild or get nothing at all.

  George 

    
    
         Believe what you want to believe George but the Herald has the
    quotes. Now they may not be the Harvard Chronicle you read but I
    believe them before you.
    
    
    Chap

 C'mon, boys...let's take it easy now.

    Funny Marquis signed a contract back when the players were on Strike
    with Boston. The contract was voided later. 
    Since then the Sox have not tried to sign any player who required Draft
    choice compensation. This is why they now have Nomar, Rose, Reitsma,
    Jenkins and the other first and second round picks. I believe this year
    they have 1 #1, 1 sandwich pick between the first and second round and
    2 #2 picks. 
    
    I do agree with Chappy that they need more then rebuilding the farm to
    become a serious contender. Right before the Braves started to win they
    picked up Terry Pendleton, Otis Nixon and a few other veterans to get
    them over the hump and to provide veteran leadership. I believe that in
    three years the only veterans from this years team to still be in Boston
    will be Naehring, Gordan and Cordero. 
    I do think Mo will ask to be traded and he'll get his wish before next
    year and the Sox will get compensated fairly. As will Valentin. Unless
    they suddenly do a Pittsburgh Pirate thing and dump all veterans
    they'll need some experiance players to help out. That means Free
    Agency and trades. Mo could bring in a lot as could Valentin. The Sox
    could stick Sadler and Jefferson in there places and be as competitive
    as they are now.
     
    Mike 
    

  As I said, it makes all the sense in the world for veterans to want to go
somewhere else right now. It will be 2-3 years minimum before the farm team
starts cranking out players and they are ready to play. Figure next year will
be the rookie year for Pavano and Rose, the following year for the guys in
Trenton then they need a year or so under their belt before it will be time to
start bringing in the veterans. 

  At that time the situation will be different. If veterans around the two
leagues see the Boston rookie, 2nd, and 3rd year players playing well and see
1-2 veterans get signed then they will know Boston has rebuilt and is ready to
try to win. Out of the corn field they will come.

  On the other hand if that crop of rookies flops then it will be more time
until the next wave hits and the veterans will probably want to go somewhere
else. In either case right now it's way too early for some veteran who wants
a World Series ring to sign with Boston.

  George

NO NO NO. You don't understand. As Justice and Grissom go, 
everyone goes. Is that the point you're trying to make here 
Chappy? That because two ballplayers have no trade clauses for the Red 
Sox, that every other free agent in baseball is not interested in 
signing with Boston? 

It's almost admirable how you never let logic stand in the way of 
a good rant. almost.

daryll

    Only one thing is totally clear: Boston in no way, shape or form would
    want either of the two.
    
    Grissom is like that girl friend of your old girl friend.  Everyone
    extols her virtues while always willing to give her up to the next
    taker.  But Cleveland is stuck.
    
    Speaking of So's Justice seems to have come around quite a bit after
    disposing of his ex, was that Halle Berry or whatever he was "married"
    to?

    
    .47 I see where Terry Pendelton provided the Braves with veteran
    leadership in 1991, but not Otis Nixon, who set a great leadership
    example by getting suspended for cocaine abuse.
    
    	It doesn't really surprise me that the two players have no-trade to
    Boston in their contracts, judging by the animosity between Eric
    Goldschmidt and Duquette.  It amazes me that the players are letting
    their lives being run by agents and lawyers who are all in it for
    themselves...if you want to find out what's wrong with the game, start
    right there, AGENTS and LAWYERS.

  Actually this is being over blown. The Globe had an article about Grissom
as well. Seems what this is all about is some personal beef between Grissom
and Duquette when Grissom was playing for the expos. Justice just went along
with what his team mate told him. 

  George

    
    Grissom's overrated, he hasn't been the same since he left the Expos. 
    I was down at Spring Training in Florida when the trade was made. 
    During an interview, John Scherholz said that another reason that they
    made the trade (besides contracts), was that Grissom wasn't in talent
    what they thought they were getting when they acquired him from
    Montreal.  They saw Lofton as a much better player, who would create
    the runs lost through the loss of Justice's power.
    
    The bottom line is if you win, anyone will want to play for you...just
    think that it was only 5 years ago that many players had Cleveland on
    their "never to be traded" list.
    
    This whole thing goes to show how far the press will go to make a
    mountain out of a molehill, and how gullible people can be to think
    that it's such a big deal.

    
    While Lofton's _not_ creating the runs lost via Justice, Tucker is,
    so that's a wash.  But Grissom really isn't great anymore; he's
    average, and by the end of his contract will be severly overpaid.
    
    Justice might last out his contract; it's not a risk I'd take,
    though...
    
    Joe

    I'd still like an explanation for why Marquis Grissom (along with 
    John Wetteland and Sammy Sosa-- damn that would have been nice) 
    signed that contract to play with the Sox (under Duquette) just two 
    short years ago, in 1995.  All of this after this supposed "bad
    experience" with Duquette while in Montreal.  I don't expect an 
    explanation from Dan Shaughnessy, although he probably doesn't even 
    remember it happened.
    
    glenn
    

    re .55,
    
    	Maybe there agents gambled that the new collective bargaining
    agreement would not make them free agents. Thus, making the contracts
    null and void. In the process it set the market for what type of money
    the players would get the following year, when they were free agents.
    	I believe the sox also signed Kevin Appier during that same period.
    If only they were declared free agents. The Sox would have filled all
    of there needs at the time, CF, RF, starter, and closer.
    
    Ron

    Glenn,
    If I'm not mistaked the two players have the same agent as Shane Mack.
    The agent wants the Sox to trade or release Mack and is upset with DD
    for not getting it done.
    
    Mike

    
    
    
    
        Brian Rose's stats yesterday......
    
    
    6 ip
    8 h
    7 r
    3 bb
    3 k
    1 hr
    
     And btw George it was a loss.

Thanks Chap. You ever going to answer Glenn or me? What exactly 
is your point in mentioning that Grisson and Justioce have no 
trade clauses to Boston in their contract.

I mean you _do_ have a point don't you? Or am I just expecting 
too much here?

Thanks,
daryll

RE   <<< Note 666.58 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "NEW YORK YANKEES WORLD CHAMPS" >>>

>        Brian Rose's stats yesterday......
    
>    6 ip
>    8 h
>    7 r
>    3 bb
>    3 k
>    1 hr
    
  One day back in the early 60's the Dodgers had a double header scheduled.
They were pretty confident going in but by the end of the day they had lost
both half of the twin bill.

  The two losing pitchers? Sandy Koufax and Don Drysdale.

  Brian Rose is now 7-1. How many Yankee pitchers are as good as 7-1?

  George

    Sounds like the next Aaron Sele!!!!!
    
    
    	Yankees RULE!!!!
    
    
    	D.C.

    
    Are the yanks still in the wild card spot, or if the season ended today
    would they be watching from home?

  More likely he's the next Jeff Suppan. He's got a 90mph fast ball but he
needs work on the curve.

  Still he's only 21 so there's plenty of time.

  George

    Uh...can we dispense with the "we're better than..." and "I'm
    more right than you..." dialogue please? :-) I really think we 
    can demonstrate a little higher level of maturity.
    
     2
    b

  Brian Rose is getting back on track. He went to 8-1 pitching about 7
innings, 2 runs, etc. Last year he tailed off toward the end of the season
in AA. It will be interesting to see what he does this time around.

  I believe Pavano is up next. Here are a couple other pitchers in the BoSox
organization that Stats Inc said to watch. James Farrel seems to be struggling
a bit at AA Trenton but Juan Pena is 2nd in strikeouts in the Florida State
league which is high A ball.

    Trenton
    PLAYER                        W-L ERA  IP    H BB  SO
    James Farrell                 4-5 5.35 69.0 78 23  45

    Sarasota 
    Pitcher                       W-L   ERA IP   H  BB  SO  
    Juan Pena, Sar                4-5  2.53 78  53  20  76  

  George

    Pena is one of the Red Sox top prospects. Baseball America had him in
    the Sox top 15 prospects. I believe he's only 19 years old. The two
    pitchers to watch in Trenton are Yannaco and Munroe. They both are
    highly thought of.
    Tomorrow is the Amatuer draft. If the Sox have done their homework and
    get lucky they should get a few good players I think they have their #1
    pick (17th) 2 picks between the first and second rounds and 2 second
    round picks. 
    
    Mike

  Numbers for Yannaco and Munroe in AA Trenton:

                                  W  L    ERA   G SV  IP     H   R  ER  BB  SO
    Munro, Peter             .... 5  3   3.91  11  0  69.0  58  32  30  24  62
    Yennaco, Jay             .... 2  2   4.85   4  0  26.0  28  14  14   9  18

  George

    I was wrong about the Red sox picks. They only have one pick between
    round one and two. Baseball America's current issue does a nice job
    with the draft. 
    
    Mike

  The Carl Pavano watch continues. Yesterday he went 8 innings against the O's
AAA franchise Rochester which is the best team in the International League
and only gave up 3 earned runs on 10 hits. He had 5 K's with only 2 walks.

  George