Conference 7.286::red_sox

    
    	How is Cordeiro as on OF?
    
    	Hopefully at least as good as Canseco is as a pitcher.  8^)
    

| <<< Note 660.1 by BUSY::SLAB "Great baby! Delicious!!" >>>

| Hopefully at least as good as Canseco is as a pitcher.  8^)

	He is.... when he was in Montreal he hurt his shoulder throwing when
playing the outfield. :-)

The move of Valentin to second, Garciapara to short and Cordero to left was 
pretty easy to predict.  Duquette gets downgraded for not handling this over 
the winter.  Cordero would have played all winter in left field instead of 
second base and Valentin would being playing second base instead of holding 
press conferences in the parking lot.  Duquette needs a little less of the 
"I'll show X who is boss" and more development of his people skills.

Jim

    Why is the call Duquette's ?   The team has a new manager and he should
    be the one to decide who plays SS and who doesn't.  In case nobody has
    noticed, Duquette is slowly changing the entire character of the team
    .... from a slow AL model to a more well-rounded NL type.  This is what
    the fans wanted and what Harrington brought Duquette in for ...... as a
    season ticket holder, I support the plan.  It takes time.  The farm
    system was in shambles.  IF the team is not a contender in '98, then
    I'll be concerned ....... but it sure seems like we're going in the
    right direction.
    
    
    greg

  I agree with greg. It's the manager, not the GM who decides where guys play.
Jimy Williams said the job of SS was JV's to lose and it appears he lost it
to a better player.

  If they can get him to play 2nd, fine. If not then ship him out and get
someone else.

  Hey, maybe they could sign Roberto Alomar when his contract runs out.

  George

    So what did Valentin say at his press conference?
    
    I figured he'd say something like.....
    
    .....SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

    
    	Valentin wants a contract extension in exchange for playing 2nd
    	base, or he wants to be traded.
    
    	Geez, was "will play SS" in his contract?  I mean, I feel bad
    	that he isn't going to play his preferred position, but give me
    	a break ... if they paid me $3.75M for a year I'd settle for a
    	3rd-string pinch runner.
    

 Grab your glove, Johnny, and get out there and play ball..



 Sheesh..

                                                                       
>    	Geez, was "will play SS" in his contract?  I mean, I feel bad
>    	that he isn't going to play his preferred position
    
    I don't.  I understand why he isn't the happiest about it, but even
    Valentin shouldn't be too put out about it.  He hasn't been benched.
    He's still a starter, and essentially the "worst" thing he's been 
    told is that there is a better defensive SS available, while 
    management feels he's still the best 2B available to the team.  
    All very reasonable.
    
    Anyone with a valid, fair contract (which Valentin has) that chooses
    to sit rather than play every day is totally missing the boat, imo.
    
    glenn
    

    re .9
    
    I totally agree, Glenn.  Valentin should stop pouting and play ball.
    I can't believe these guys .... like a previous noter said, if we got
    paid the money they did, we'd be happy being 3rd string bat boys !!
    For chrissakes, the guy has been told how much they value his defense
    (not sure I agree) and that he's still going to be a starter.  They
    need his bat more in the lineup than his glove (imho).  He gets a little
    too nonchalant (sp ?) on routine grounders for my liking.
     
    By the way, Valentin's press conference (what a joke) was scheduled for
    12 Noon.  Did anybody hear what he really had to say ??  Earlier today
    I read something in the Globe where Valentin's agent (Dick Moss) said
    Valentin might sit out the rest of spring training and more if he
    didn't get a new/extended contract.  What a nerve .... give me a 
    *&%$#% break !!!
    
    DF
                                                 

  Does anyone really think Valentin is seriously considering not playing ball?
To me this looks like a typical labor/management negotiation with a worker
making a threat to get something he wants.

  What makes anyone think this is "pouting" and not negotiating?

  George

According to ESPNET, Valentin has changed his mind and decided to return to 
the Red Sox to play second base.  He'll start practicing at second on Tuesday.

He's still ticked off and said that if he isn't traded he'll become a free
agent after his contract runs out next year.

Crybaby!

Dan

  Get down on them grounders, Johnny!

    
    I, too, have to agree with those in here who have said that Johnny
    V should put on his glove and trot out to second base.  As you well
    know, I'm a big Valentin supporter, but I can't go along with his
    latest stance of play me at short, extend my contract, or trade me.
    Heck, he's in the starting lineup, isn't that enough?  Give me a
    break, Johnny.
    
    Lou
    

  The 11th commandment, "If thou art a ball player, thou must never complain".

  Imagine, an employee expressing dissatisfaction with an order given to them
by an employer. What IS this world coming to?

  George

	For what Val has done for the team, he has every right to complain. I
forget the guys name, but they do have someone ready to take over 2nd in the
minors. That will likely happen next season. So then Val will be displaced yet
again. So for him to push for a contract extension makes perfect sense.
Otherwise, what kind of future does he have with the team? 

	The front office has a lot to learn about employee relations. They
aren't going to keep good players here if they keep treating them the way they
are. Can someone who has been handed the shortstop job for him to lose in
spring training really lose it after 6+ games? Gee.... and Cordero just
happened to lose his spot after 6+ games, and Reggie Jefferson lost an outfield
spot, etc...etc... 

	This was going to happen from the get go. The front office screwed with
many players to make them think something good will happen, when the end result
is nothing good has become of it as it only took 6 games for all three players
to fail. Uh huh......



Glen

> This was going to happen from the get go. The front office screwed with
> many players to make them think something good will happen, when the end result
> is nothing good has become of it as it only took 6 games for all three players
> to fail. Uh huh......
    
    It's not that obvious to me.  First, Jimy Williams has never seen any
    of these players.  Second, Cordero went and screwed up any chance at using 
    him at 2B to start the season by immediately getting hurt.  I can see 
    where that plan might have been given a real chance (however ill-fated), 
    but with Cordero injured there is now no further time to waste on the 
    possibility.  
    
    Valentin wasn't going to like this any more had it been announced in 
    the off-season.  And Valentin's future *with the Sox* is at least as 
    good if he's at 2B than SS, and most likely better (Donnie Sadler 
    could need as many as two more years, Garciaparra is supposedly 
    ready now).  This is about John Valentin's marketability period-- 
    but unfortunately John Valentin is bound by the Players' Agreement 
    like everyone else, and doesn't get to call the shots until after 
    this season (and he's not the kind of player that merits a big-money
    longterm extension at age 30, not after last year).  Until that time 
    it's the manager's duty to put the best field on the team (which 
    could even eventually mean putting Val back at SS; it's not a 
    perfect world).
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn, are you talking about Cordero getting injured last year,
    or did he sustain an injury this spring? I haven't been tracking
    the Sox spring training closely this year, so must have missed
    hearing about yet another injury to Wil Cordero, the latest player
    to come along in the "glass" mold of Tim Naehring. :-)
    On Valentin playing 2b, I think John could have done a far better
    job of preparing himself for this possibility, during the winter.
    For heavens sake John, put the glove on, go out there, and play ball
    and stop this posturing. Oh, and BTW, put me on the list of people
    who too thinks that the Duke has to learn a few more inter-personal skills.
    
     2
    b

	Well, I for one am happy about this move since I've been a big
	Garciappera booster since early last year when Val (along with 
	everyone else on the team at the time) looked totally disinterested
	in playing defense.  

	Re: Val's marketability. This is a true statement Glen.  If Val does 
	some soulsearching he should recognise that there is a glut of good
	young SS's in the game right now, all of whom are better defensively
	than he is.  His advantage is with the bat.  He is a 15-20 HR / 35-40
	Doubles a year hitter within the confines of playing 80 plus games at
	Fenway Park.  He's no astroturf infielder, at least at SS.  His real
	position appears to me to be 3rd base.  With the injury history of 
	Nehring I'd say he gets quite a few starts at 3rd.  His best bet is
	to prove himself there, put up some eye-opening offense stats, and	
	test the free agent market at the end of
	his current contract.  I like Val - but I like Garciappera better and
	I like Nehring at 3rd better than Val.  Another option - get a one
	year extension on his contract and start picking up a 1st baseman's
	mitt and wait for the Mo Vaughn fallout to eventually occur.

	Regards,

	Chuck

| <<< Note 660.17 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN >>>


| It's not that obvious to me.  First, Jimy Williams has never seen any
| of these players.  Second, Cordero went and screwed up any chance at using
| him at 2B to start the season by immediately getting hurt.  

	Cordero played winter ball at 2nd. They knew from the beginning if he
could or could not play.

| Valentin wasn't going to like this any more had it been announced in the 
| off-season.  

	Stringing along a player is like a boss stringing you along for a
promotion. It just isn't cool. How one feels after being strung along is
exactly how Valentin feels. The gm screwed up yet again.

    re: .17
    
    Glenn, once again you beat me to the punch when you say the Valentin
    situation could not have been handled properly last fall. Some of
    the radio dinks on WEEI yesterday said they thought Duquette and/or
    Williams handled this poorly, I disagree. (Jeez, with those guys on
    Ordway's show they either hate or sympathize with the players based on
    whatever way the wind is blowing-- like most of the media.  I also
    think they have an axe to grind with Duquette because he doesn't kiss
    any of the media boys' butts !!)
    
    Anyway --- as Glenn said, how can the Manager (not Duquette) make any
    decisions on positional players until he can first watch them play in
    practice and in games ?                                        
    
    Look, most of us (at one time or another in our lives) do things we
    don't WANT to do.  We p*ss and moan about it awhile, get over it and
    go do it !!
    
    Valentin might be a decent guy with good intentions, but he sounded like
    an absolute buffoon yesterday in his news conference when he asked to
    be traded (basically because he is not getting his way).  Sorry Val, I
    can't see your point and I have no sympathy for your "plight".
    
    I applaud the Red Sox front office (and Jimy Williams) for trying to do
    the right thing and improve the current make up of this team.  It's all
    the other moron owners (like the ones who are paying Bonds $12M/year)
    who are continuing to ruin it for the teams who are trying to act
    responsibly !!
    
    Spoiled players are the by-product of idiotic owners !  All these
    players have to do is cry loud enough, ask to traded or threaten to sit
    out and the owners cave in and come up with the megabucks.
    
    The baseball ticket at $15-20 is still a "reasonable" value for most
    average fans.  If teams keep caving in to players demands, we'll be in
    an NHL/NBA (and to some extent an NFL) situation pretty soon where the
    REAL FANS will be priced out of the market and will not be able to
    afford to see games live anymore.  Anybody you know paying an average
    of $45-$60 a ticket on a regukar basis to go see games at the Fleet 
    Center ?? If so, don't you ever ask yourself why ???
    
    It's no wonder I love high school sports so much.
    
    Nobody asked -- just my opinion !  I apologize for the extra rambling.
    
    DF
                     

 most of the players seem to be on the mgmt side, at least for the way
 the whole thing was handled.



 Jim

    
    
      Not really sure who started the string about Jimy Williams making this
    decision on his own is crazy.  This is an organizational decision.  A
    good one if you ask me.  Was it top down/bottom up who knows but Williams
    did not make this on his own.  Donnie Sadler has all the tools to be a
    very good 2B'man but he has to get his on base % up and stop swinging at
    bad pitches.  This will come and I believe he is for real.  Not now or
    possibly even next year given he has to learn a new posistion but he will
    be a solid ML'er.  Back to Val, he is my personal fav on the team and I
    doubt this incident will change that.  He does want to play short even
    though he says it don't matter but the bit about the contract extension
    is true.  They ponied up the coin and years for Naerhing so a 3yr contract
    extension for Val should not have been a problem.  He is the second best
    hitter on the team and I think he has a real beef with Dopey Dan.  If DD
    don't watch it the two best players on this team will be gone in the prime 
    of their careers.
    
    Jerry
     

BTW, Valentin was fined $500 for missing yesterday's workout.

Burns

    
    	Valentin wanting a contract extension for moving to 2b is
    ludicris. Valentin does not become a FA until after the 1998 season.
    So he has this year AND next season, before becoming a FA. The Red Sox
    do not give long term contracts to people who are arbitration eligible.
    They might have broken that twice in the last 10 years (Clemens,
    Vaughn). IMO you don't break it for a John Valentin. Valentin plays
    this season at 2B and goes to arbitration next season. If Valentin
    changes his mind in the next year, he will sign a long term contract
    with the Sox. If not he gets traded during the winter and before the
    trading deadline next season.
    
    Ron

The key to understanding Jon Valentin's reaction is realizing what
it takes to make it in the big leagues. Major league players are highly
competitive, very focused, intense, and self-confident. Players without 
these qualities don't make it. So, Valentin being asked to move over
to 2B goes against everything in his nature and everything he has work for
in his career.  It is easy for arm chair athletes to say, "for $4M he should
shut up and play", but it is a perspective an athlete rarely sees.

Management certainly could handle player relations better.
    

    Why does DD owe any player anything? All players have a contract which
    they either signed (no guns assumed pointing at their heads) or were
    awarded through arbitration. If JV has a good year he'll negotiate with
    DD for a raise for next year or go to arbitration and get awarded a
    figure set by an arbitrator. When next year is over he can file for
    free agency. This is the system JV and the players wanted. 
    Why must DD renegotiate? JV friend Naehring was quoted as saying
    it was better for the team for Nomar to play SS. What DD is trying to
    do is get players that have to compete for their jobs. What is wrong
    with that? Fans have bitched and moan about players salaries and LTC
    that create complacency. DD is trying to control a payroll and win
    games.  
     
    Mike

>    Valentin wanting a contract extension for moving to 2b is
>    ludicris. Valentin does not become a FA until after the 1998 season.
>    So he has this year AND next season, before becoming a FA.
    
    This being the case, Valentin will be 32 by the time he's a free agent.
    You don't extend that kind of player.  Get past the ego and the agent 
    whispering in your ear, and even for the player that should be easy 
    enough to see.  It's just common sense.
    
    Duquette might not be the most personable guy around but some of the 
    raps he's gotten from the players have been a joke.  For the most part
    he's taken the heat standing up with maybe at most a sarcastic comment
    tossed back.  He's basically remained above the fray.  Look at the 
    principals in the whining: Greenwell, Canseco, Clemens.  Except for 
    Clemens these are players who didn't have a leg to stand on.  But 
    even Mo Vaughn who has been misguided in the past for sticking up for 
    the likes of Greenwell basically said something to the effect of "I 
    hope your attitude is in the right place when you come back, Val".
    
    A few of these players have far outdone the "bad old Sox" of 25-cab, 
    star treatment fame (late 1970s) in the level and the audacity of their 
    complaining.  The big difference being that those players were winning 
    a few games here and there...
    
    glenn
      

| <<< Note 660.27 by CSLALL::BRULE "Spring Training is here" >>>


| What DD is trying to do is get players that have to compete for their jobs. 

	Mike, do you really think Val competed for short? Or do you think he
was moving to 2nd anyway?

    
> | What DD is trying to do is get players that have to compete for their jobs. 
> 
> 	Mike, do you really think Val competed for short? Or do you think he
> was moving to 2nd anyway?

    Sure he has ... in 4? years in the majors he has shown quite clearly
    his hitting ability and fielding ability.  It should be pretty clear his
    relative strengths in regards to range, foot quickness, and quickness. 
    Hi ability to move to 2B or 3B should be pretty easy to guess.
    
    Norma is the tougher call.  There is plenty of evidence of his
    defensive ability as a SS which apparently is clearly superior to 
    Valentin's.  The question is can Norma hit major league pitching?
    
    I think the move was a good thing; I think it could have been handled
    better.  I do not think extending Valentin was necessarily the way to
    go.  A player's prime years are from 26-30 generally and Val will be a
    free agent at 32.  I wouldn't be big on tying up someone 3 years from
    now who is not a franchise guy who will be 32 then.
    
    Greg
    
    

    The Redsox had to play their best shortstop and simply couldn't wait. 
    Wally Pipp was a pretty good first baseman, so what.  Many good players
    have been displaced by better ones.

    Yes Valentin competed for SS. People have had a good look at him the
    last few years and he is one of the top 5 offensive SS in the AL. He
    now will be a top 5 offensive 2B. Garciaparra has more range and a
    better arm then Valentin. Valentin is probably an average defensive SS
    and will probably be an average 2B defensivly. The team is a lot better
    defensivly with this setup. Garciaparra will add 20 SBs and hit 15 -20
    HR's if healthy all year. 
    
    Mike

    With Garciaparra, Valentin, Naehring, and Frye for 3 positions the Sox
    really have excellent coverage.  All can play short or 2nd with varying
    degrees of quality. If Naehring goes down, we may discover Val is the
    best 3B on the team (excluding the clubhouse factor)!

    
    	I personally think the Sox planned on Valentin playing 3B once
    Nomar was ready and have Cordero play 2b. Giving you Vaughn ,Cordero,
    Garciaparra, and Valentin as the infield.
    	Two things back-fired on DD's plan. Cordero can't play 2b and
    Tim Naehring was unbelievable at times at 3B.
    	As far as Donnie Sadler and 2B. He was playing SS then he played
    CF, then back to SS, Now he is at 2B. He needs some seasoning at
    AAA at 2B. Another case of raw talent/speed. However he is short, only
    5'6". Also can he hit?
    
    Ron

    
    >The Redsox had to play their best shortstop and simply couldn't wait. 
    >Wally Pipp was a pretty good first baseman, so what.  Many good players
    >have been displaced by better ones.
    
    Actually, I don't think this is quite a fair statement.  Valentin's
    clearly the better SS _today_.  Garciaparra could become the better
    shortstop (overall, that is; I'll assume that his defense really is
    better).  It's therefore a very reasonable move - but one should still
    expect better performance from Valentin this year, at least.
    
    Joe
    

    I agree, Ron.  The obvious plan was Valentin at 3B, but Naehring
    continues to get better and is a fan favorite.
    
    Sadler's numbers at AA 1996 -
    
    .267 AVE  454 AB  68 R  121 H  20 2B  8 3B  6 HR  46 RBI  
    .323 OBP   38 BB  75 SO  34 SB  8 CS
    
    79 games at ss with 26 errors!
    30 games at of with 1 error
    
    Sadler's numbers at A 1995 -
    
    .283 AVE  438 AB  103 R  124 H  25 2B  8 3B  9 HR  55 RBI
    .392 OBP   79 BB  85 SO  41 SB  13 CS

    
>    It's therefore a very reasonable move - but one should still
>    expect better performance from Valentin this year, at least.
    
    But Garciaparra could be expected to deliver a better defensive
    performance at SS than Valentin did last year, and that's pretty much
    all that matters here (I think Valentin is perfectly capable of playing 
    a decent defensive 2B-- just like Jody Reed did).  Both bats will still
    be in the lineup, and I think Garciaparra can hit at least as well as
    Frye will, if not Cordero (who is rapidly evolving into a full-fledged
    enigma).
    
    glenn
    

    
    	I think pretty much anybody can hit as well as Frye does.
    
    	Garciaparra is much better offensively.
    

    
    >	I think pretty much anybody can hit as well as Frye does.
    
    Actually, Frye isn't a useless hitter - he gets on base.
    
    >	Garciaparra is much better offensively.
    
    Maybe.  If he hits like he did (in very few at bats) in '96, sure.
    If he hits like he did in 95, Frye's probably better offensively.
    
    Joe

    Sadler had a very good fall in the Arizona league. I think he was
    voted the 7th highest rated player in the league which is filled
    with many top AA and AAA prospects. Garciaparra was rated the 2nd
    best 2 years ago. (Behind Derek Jeter) Sadler is short but has a
    powerful upper body. He turned down a football scholarship at an
    SEC school as a running back.
    
    Mike

    Tracking the Redsox last year was pretty easy.  Until Frye showed up,
    and to some extent the outfield was settled, the Redsox were 10-15 games
    under .500.  The hidden factor from what I can gather was Valentin. 
    The other factor in disguise was that they actually had solid pitching
    (for example Wakefield I'm sure now was consistently good all season
    long and a barometer of the defensive weaknesses of the Redsox).
    
    With Valentin out of the lineup and even Steve Rodriguez replacing him
    the defense stabilized.  With Valentin in the lineup the Sox could
    never win the entire year of 1996.  I have no idea what seems to have
    caused the Valentin collapse.  Game observation, not consistent, showed
    a severe lack of range on Valentin's part.
    
    This is just the way I make my conclusions not having a lot of faith in
    statistics, current style or otherwise.  From my observations, ss
    surprisingly is not a position that effects the won loss record like
    second base and centerfield.  Probably because it is so intensely
    scrutinized and rarely does a Valentin slip in.

    I read in Sunday's paper that Rudy Pemberton has been announced as the
    starting right fielder.  O'leary actually played a game in center field
    to give Pemberton additional time in right.
    
    Rumor is the Sox are trying to deal Stanley.  I'm not sure what he'd
    bring, other than some prospects.  That's probably not a bad thing, the
    Sox have a bunch of players in camp, and somebody's gonna have to go.
    
    Also mentioned, not so much as a rumor, but speculation, was that
    Gordon might be offered around to see what he'd bring.
    
    	Ted

 I'm having a heck of a time getting excited about the pending season

I guess maybe I'm not a very good judge of SS talent, but the little I've
seen of Nomar so far has not really impressed me.  People say he has a
stronger arm than Valentin, but when I've seen Nomar, he seems to throw
nonchalantly to first, sort of sidearm, just fast enough to get the
runner.  I guess there's nothing wrong with that if you can do it
consistently (to save your arm a bit) without screwing up, while still
having the gas when you need it.  Was it Mark Belanger that tended to
have that style?

Anyway, I'm not sticking up for JV, I think he should just suck it up and
play 2nd.  I think he will have plenty of opportunity to play SS this year,
anyway.  I don't think NG is going to be the immediate superstar everyone
seems to be anticipating.  Last season I was surely more impressed with
his bat than his glove.  I hope I'm wrong... I probably am.

Dick

    I saw Garciaparra play in person last season (late) and one thing
    impressed me .... he has a cannon for an arm ....... I saw him make
    several throws which were the hardest throws from a Red Sox player I
    can remember since Scott Cooper ...... I also remember seeing
    Garciaparra play SS for Georgia Tech in the college w/s ........
    tremendous range ......... don't base your judgement on a few spring
    training games, give it a couple of months ....... this is baseball,
    where the duration of the season and sheer number of games needs to be
    taken into account.
    
    
    greg  

    Did anybody else read todays Globe article on this guy Mike Gimbel?
    He apparently has sold the duke on his stats approach to evaluating
    players. He has this thing called RPA (run production average).
    The idea apparently is that every player is responsible for a
    certain number of runs, both for and against his team. Add the
    for and against numbers up for a player and you have his RPA.
    The players are then ranked according to position. Now I don't
    have a lot of general interest in this level of detail other than
    a very casual awareness, but how does Gimbel's approach differ
    from how Bill James used to do it?
    Now I know how the "micro-managing" aspect of Duquette's persona
    evolves. Apparently Kennedy didn't think much of Gimbel's approach
    and had said as much to Duquette more than once.
    Now here's a real kicker to save for lster retrieval....
    Jimy Williams was quoted as not being a big fan of numbers. Yesterday
    Williams and the rest of the coaching staff, was asked to meet 
    with Gimbel. The meeting apparently lasted 45 minutes. After the 
    meeting Gimbel conceded that the coaches wern't too receptive,
    especially to his suggestion that they consider making Valentin the
    leadoff hitter. What's this guy Gimbel smoking? Valentin leadoff?
    Wow! now that's one to remember! :-)
    
    
     2
    b

 I think I'm going to wait a while for my annual NESN sign up this year.

    I saw that article this a.m.
    
    Apparently, Gimbel started this statistical
    analysis when James no longer published his 
    statistics.  Or at least started publishing
    his information.  I don't remember if it said
    how long he's been doing this work.
    
    The article said that Gimbel supplies that
    information for every player at every level
    of the game.
    
    The article also pointed out how other baseball
    men, like Weaver and LaRussa, rely heavily on
    statistics and have for years.
    
    And, this was my favorite, Gimbel said that the
    Sox will trade Valentin, but no club has given
    the Sox a decent offer..based on his statistics.
    
    

    The catch is, Gimbel's numbers for Valentin's career may somehow show
    that the Red Sox will score more runs if he leads off, (in some strange
    way I suppose that could be ture) but all of Gimbel's statistics on
    Valentin are for NOT leading off.  There is no evidence that the
    numbers will hold up if and when he does lead off.
    
    The logic is flawed.

  Well, it depends on what he's doing with the numbers. Maybe it doesn't matter
if he doesn't have numbers for him leading off. 

  If you look at JV's stats, he hit 0.296 and his walk to strike out ratio was 
63:59. That means he gets on base a lot and doesn't strike out much which is
what you want in a lead off hitter. 

  Now old time baseball types will say he's not fast enough and doesn't steal
bases but most statistics seem to show that it's more important to have someone
on base when a guy gets a hit than it is to have a fast guy who doesn't get on
as much but steals an extra base here and there. In other words, unless you
have someone taking 70-80 stolen bases, stealing is over rated.

  As for Duquette, he should listen to both types of advice, from stat guys
and from tobacco chewing coach type guys. You need both types of information
to get a complete picture. There's no evidence that he's not doing that.

  George

    Be careful. Mike Gimbal and Joe Huber have never been seen together. 
    Rumor has it Joe (mike) was seen in Logan airport heading "south" last
    week.  :^)  :^)
    
    Mike

                                   
>    What's this guy Gimbel smoking? Valentin leadoff?
>    Wow! now that's one to remember! :-)
 
    I believe the thinking is that at least Valentin gets on base (~.400
    OBP over the past three years, and not because he's being pitched 
    around to a great extent), while the Sox don't really have anyone else 
    who can be considered a legitimate leadoff man by comparison (in fact
    with the likes of Tinsley, Hosey, Frye and such, they've had one of the
    worst leadoff slots in baseball for a few years now).  In 1995, when he
    was last healthy, Val pretty quietly stole 20 bases too.
    
    It's not too outrageous.  Hey, even Dwight Evans led off for the Sox
    for a couple seasons, for the same reasons.
    
    On the whole, I'd say that the article overstates this Gimbel's
    influence though.  With his supposed insider comments on Valentin's 
    imminent departure via  trade, he may have a bit of an ego too...
    
    glenn
    
    
    glenn
    

| <<< Note 660.47 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Give the world a smile each day" >>>

| I think I'm going to wait a while for my annual NESN sign up this year.

	Jim, my parents live in Berlin MA. They get NESN FREEEEEEE!!!!  I was
watching a sox game with my dad this past weekend. How I wish it were free,
period!

| <<< Note 660.50 by CLUSTA::MAIEWSKI "Braves, 1914 1957 1995 WS Champs" >>>

| If you look at JV's stats, he hit 0.296 and his walk to strike out ratio was
| 63:59. That means he gets on base a lot and doesn't strike out much which is
| what you want in a lead off hitter.

	I would think that number would be better for a number 2 hitter. High
onbase % for the leadoff man, but low strikout ratio for #2 who is going to get
his share of swinging at bad pitches during steal attempts.

    Somethings for Gimbel to think about:
    
    Many games, I'd guess half are decided in the 7th and on.  Many by a
    single run.  Plays that are made both on offense and defense often
    decide them.  The Redsox from 1959-66 usually couldn't execute these;
    from 1967-80 they generally could, since then it's been sporadic with
    the Barrett years mostly good, the Remy and post Barrett years
    sporadic.
    
    The other factor is what I'd call a regression factor.  That is how the
    team does with certain players in certain positions.  Managers probably
    pay too much attention to this by moving players around to find a
    combination that works.  It seems to be workable for a team like the
    Redsox with consistent (if not great pitching), stable factors like
    Vaughn, and the movement they've had a ss,sb and cf (and c) in the past
    few years.  It would appear doable to multiply regress this for the
    games that Gordon,Clemens and Wakefield pitched last year by wins/who's
    in the lineup.
    
    Finally there is the lefty/righty factor so despised by the Gimbels and
    others.

    
    I guess this is the "Gimbel lock of the year".
    
    Marc
    

RE: 660.49
>  There is no evidence that the
>  numbers will hold up if and when he does lead off.

>  The logic is flawed.

  This is my contention that his logic may be flawed enough that Duquette
  may not be able to see the woods for the trees in this.

RE: 660.50
>  As for Duquette, he should listen to both types of advice, from stat guys
>  and from tobacco chewing coach type guys. You need both types of 
>  information get a complete picture. There's no evidence that he's not 
>  doing that.

  I certainly hope that this is the case and that he is providing 
  moderate suggestion to Williams to listen to Gimbel, take it into
  account in situations where the information may be relevant, but
  that overall he (Williams should trust his own judgement).

RE: 660.51
>  Be careful. Mike Gimbal and Joe Huber have never been seen together.
>  Rumor has it Joe (mike) was seen in Logan airport heading "south" last
>  week.  :^)  :^)
 
   Too funny! Got a chuckle over that one! :-)

RE: 660.52
>  On the whole, I'd say that the article overstates this Gimbel's
>  influence though.  With his supposed insider comments on Valentin's
>  imminent departure via  trade, he may have a bit of an ego too...
    
   This is what struck me too about these quotes of Gimbel. It wouldn't
   surprise me if he hasn't been dragged into the Duke's office and 
   gotten a strong word-lashing on these type of "cavalier" comments.

RE: 660.55
>  Finally there is the lefty/righty factor so despised by the Gimbels and
>  others.

   While I don't vehemently despise the lefty/righty factor, I do feel
   that it is overstated & overemphasized to a modest degree. With a 
   postage sized strike zone these days, the lefty/righty factor is 
   overly done.
   If the strike zone was larger, then I would think the lefty/righty 
   thingy would play a larger sphere of influence. I'll of course add
   the caveat that there are exceptions to the degree to which this factor
   can play an influence depending on the opposing pitcher.

   2
  b

>>  On the whole, I'd say that the article overstates this Gimbel's
>>  influence though.  With his supposed insider comments on Valentin's
>>  imminent departure via  trade, he may have a bit of an ego too...
>    
>   This is what struck me too about these quotes of Gimbel. It wouldn't
>   surprise me if he hasn't been dragged into the Duke's office and 
>   gotten a strong word-lashing on these type of "cavalier" comments.
    
    There's more.  From today's Globe:
    
    Gimbel reiterated that Valentin will be traded.  "We're just trying to
    do the best by John.  And we're trying to get equal value."
    
    Gimbel said Duquette instructed him that in the future, he should clear
    all interview requests with a club spokesman.  But that didn't keep him
    from holding court with media members for almost an hour.
    
    
    glenn
    

    >>                                             But that didn't keep him
    >> from holding court with media members for almost an hour.
    
    Sounds like Mr. Gimbel is a typical gadfly, and now that he has
    been let out of the bag from behind the scenes, he's going to
    be a continuous source of irritation to Dano-the-Duke.
    
     2
    b

    it is a sad state of affairs......
    
    
    
    Gumball headlines the Sox news again today!  Evidentally his NYC
    residence was raided by police seizing alligators, iguanas, and
    turtles.

Having an obscure stats man provide the best copy from spring training is 
not a good sign.

I hope to sell most of my season tickets before the start of the season 
before everyone figures out what kind of team Mr. Duquette has "built".

Jim

    From everything I've heard and read about Gum-ball, he's a
    true gadfly, and on top of all these pet fetishes of his,
    he has a football field sized ego. The first and latter attributes
    are truely a dangerous PR liability for Dan-O.
    Watching Lobels show lasted night suggests to me that the local
    media isn't finished with this one just yet. I think they will
    milk this one for every bogus stat they can that they can spin
    around on Dukey as being a bad GM decision this coming season.
    
     2
    b

    re: Gimbel notes
    
    B-squared hit the nail on the head in note .62.  This whole mess is
    just another episode in the local media's never ending quest to expose
    Dan Duquette as a numbers crazy geek who (in their collective opinion)
    is not a MLB caliber General Manager.
    
    I think this is all a sham and just another slam the local press is
    putting on DD because they just don't like him ---- period.  He doesn't
    have regular "personal" news conferences with them, he doesn't make
    himself available to them and the biggest reason they don't like
    him ---- he doesn't kiss their &*%$#@ butts like Lou Gorman and his
    predecessors did !!!
    
    I like Duquette's approach and I believe it will work, for the long
    term.  The Shaughnessies and Gerry Callahans of the world just won't
    leave it alone !!
    
    DF
    

yeahbut they didn't give Lou a break even if he did do a lot of bending over.

Let's face it, the Boston media are just after dirt.  "Let's see what we can
dig up today."  Hey, this Gumbel guy did not just show up in Ft. Myers!  He
has been with the Red Sox for A COUPLE YEARS!   Now Edes happens to meet him
and decides he's a twerp and it's a slow news day and BINGO!  Instant
noteriety.

BTW, where did they dig up Edes anyway, and what happened to Cafardo (who was
not necessarily better...they must give these guys a dirt-digging test before
they hire them).

Burns

                                      
> BTW, where did they dig up Edes anyway, and what happened to Cafardo (who was
> not necessarily better...they must give these guys a dirt-digging test before
> they hire them).
    
    Cafardo moved on to cover the Patriots.  There were definitely some 
    personality problems there between him and the Red Sox management; it
    showed in his writing, and he probably did the right thing
    professionally by leaving the beat.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    The Braves have traded Grissom and Dave Justice to the
    Indians for Kenny Lofton!
    
    CF

    
    
    There will be a 10:00 AM press conference to announce this...

    Lofton and Alan Embree

Well.... I'd say that the Braves made out better for this season, but after
this season not sure how well off they will be.

  Long term Andruw Jones should be there regular centerfielder and Jermaine Dye
should own right. They have prospects coming along in the outfield and 1st base
so which ever works out best, Klesko can play what's left. 

  For the Braves the future depends on how well they do at retaining their
core pitching staff and how well those guys age.

  George

    FORT MYERS, Fla. -- As if losing Roger Clemens wasn't enough,
     now Boston Red Sox fans are facing the prospect of -- gasp! --
     moving to the National League. 
    
     Red Sox CEO John Harrington, who's also the head of baseball's
     realignment and expansion committee, said Tuesday he would "have
     an open mind" about leaving the AL if the major leagues realign after
     the 1998 season.
    
     "The fans wouldn't like it and I can understand that, but for the good
    of
     the game I could be convinced," Harrington said, adding that it isn't
     likely to happen. "But I think it would take a lot of selling for us
    to
     leave our relationship with the New York Yankees."
    
     The loss of the team's biggest rivalry would be just one of the
     traditions abandoned if the Red Sox ended their charter membership in
     the AL, which was formed in 1901. But moving to the NL would put
     the Red Sox in new rivalries with teams in bigger markets, and that
     would translate into more money.
    
     HARRINGTON'S COMMITTEE HAS CONSIDERED several
     proposals that would have a team change leagues for the first time
    this
     century. And the Boston boss said he wouldn't take the Red Sox off
     the table.
    
     No team can be forced to change leagues over its objections.
    
     "Over half of the clubs have indicated they'd be open to switching
     leagues," Harrington said. "I told them I'd have to have an open mind,
     too."
    
     On another matter, Harrington conceded he was bothered by the
     emergence of statistical consultant Michael Gimbel, a computer guru
     and New York water bureau worker who claimed that he was behind
     many of the team's recent acquisitions.
    
     "Some things have to change," Harrington said, adding that Gimbel's
     future role had not yet been addressed. "He had one view and Dan
     (Duquette, the general manager) had another view of his role and
     contribution to the team."
    
     GIMBEL, WHOM DUQUETTE COMPARED TO eccentric
     recluse Boo Radley from "To Kill a Mockingbird," told reporters last
     week that he is the "power behind the throne." Although he denied any
     of his recommendations have backfired, he raised eyebrows by
     claiming that Baltimore second baseman Robert Alomar is overrated
     defensively and Rob Deer is a more productive hitter than Ken Griffey
     Jr.
    
     Although Gimbel is listed in the team's media guide and has been on
     the payroll since Duquette arrived in 1993, he was little-known by the
     team before meeting with the coaches last week.
    
     Manager Jimy Williams said he listened, but didn't expect to follow
     many of Gimbel's unconventional recommendations. But some players
     and coaches were incensed that the team was listening to a man who
     claimed proudly that he didn't watch games. 
                                                            

 who the heck is running this outfit?  Abbott and Costello?

    This whole thing is really minor ..... it's been a slow spring as far
    as news goes out of spring training ...... Williams hasn't said or done
    anything controversial/the Valentin affair has blown over/there're are
    no Jose and/or Roger and/or Gator stories to follow ....... this is it 
    folks ....... they gotta write about something ....... P.T. Barnum
    was right !!
    
    Don't get too worked up over it .......
    
    greg

    And they won a game finally today, 7-2 at Bradenton over the mighty
    Pirates.  Now off to Las Vegas and points west.

  Greg is exactly right. The image given by the reporters is much worse than
reality.

  Let's face it, writing about developing rookies in an attempt to build for
a future several years away is not going to sell papers to the general public.
What market there is for that type of copy is already owned by USA Today
Baseball Weekly, Sporting News, etc.

  George

    
> Greg is exactly right. The image given by the reporters is much worse than
> reality.
    
    Gordon Edes is the guy whose initial introduction of David Justice on 
    the subject of the recent blockbuster trade was as "Halle Berry's 
    ex-husband".  These daily notes columns have become a major 
    name-dropping and gossip thing...
    
    glenn
    

Who is Halle Berry (other than DJ's ex-wife)?

Burns
 

 Phew...I thought I was the only one who didn't know who she is..

>> Phew...I thought I was the only one who didn't know who she is..

	She is a very attractive actress ...

    
    	Yes, very.
    
    	She was in "Executive Decision".  Oh, she was the "real" mother
    	of Isaiah in "Losing Isaiah" also.  And the dancer/actress [or
    	whatever her character did] in "The Last Boy Scout".
    

    Where did Edes come from?
    
    Mike

    
    	As for all this talk about Gimbel, the fact that he's bragging
    about being the "brains" tells me he doesn't know squat about baseball,
    after all, he doesn't watch games.  He goes by his one stat...which for
    anyone who ever tried to evaluate a horserace, dograce, or baseball
    game knows won't work.  An infinite amount of factors go into
    determining the outcomes of these events, and are based on individual
    trials...so when you take one stat that is based on multiple trials, it
    will invariably be wrong.  For instance, the #1 box at the dograces
    over a years time at most dog tracks will win the most races...but if
    you bet the dog in the #1 box every race, over time you will lose.  All
    that matters is that matchup, depending on that situation, at that
    time.  Every independent trial is different...
    	Get Gimbel outta there!!!!
    

  What do you mean when you say Gimbal goes by one stat? 

  In statistics there are good stats and bad stats. Something like dogs running
out of the #1 spot would be a bad stat because it doesn't take the dog into
consideration. However if you like young pitchers who throw 90mph+, strike out
about one batter per inning pitched and keep walks down, those are good stats. 

  I remember a few years back when the new baseball stats were 1st being
discussed Pete Gammons tried his hand and came up with a stat showing that when
Wade Boggs got a hit his 1st time at bat he had a relatively bad year but he
did better when he made out his 1st at bat of the season. Now obviously that
was bad statistics. He picked numbers that were coincidence and not likely to
repeat.

  On the other hand, rookies who go through the minors with good BB:SO ratios
are generally guys who know the strike zone. Those guys have a better chance
of working out.

  George

    Catching: Bill Haselman, who once challenged the Dallas Cowboys' Troy
    Aikman for the quarterback job at UCLA, is a good athlete and a sound
    defensive catcher whose offense came to life last season (.274, up 31
    points). He throws out 29% of basestealers, including 58% in September.

    In case anyone is interested the Sox open tonight in Anaheim with
    Gordon.
    
    Here's a quote from Dan the man in the Herald(Maserotti): "We knew when
    we signed him that his thorowing was short, he's doing some exercises
    that may help him".
    
    	The subject none other than his starting centerfielder that DD
    signed for 1.85 mil.  This guy simply will not learn.
    
    Good luck Sox.

    The lineup shown in the Globe has Cordero playing LF.
    On Cordero playing CF, I think this would be somewhat of
    a mistake. I don't know Cordero to be capable of covering
    a lot of grass, but perhaps they've found out that Mack
    isn't much better, so maybe they are going to plan on swapping
    the two of them depending on the park they're playing in.
    
    
     2
    b

	Bragg should be in center LONG before Cordero....

>>    Here's a quote from Dan the man in the Herald(Maserotti): "We knew when
>>    we signed him that his thorowing was short, he's doing some exercises
>>    that may help him".

I saw this in the Herald but it was referring to Shane Mack, not Cordero.
Mack's arm is sore and he is going to have trouble throwing until it heals.
I think that .86 was saying that if Mack can't play center then who does,
Cordero?  

db

RE           <<< Note 660.89 by DRAGN::BOURQUARD "This is not here" >>>

>I think that .86 was saying that if Mack can't play center then who does,
>Cordero?  

  Bragg. He can run forever and he's got a cannon for an arm. While he was
still with Seattle I went to a Mariners game at Fenway. Bragg took a fly ball
on the warning track and Reggie Jefferson tagged up at 3rd and headed home.
Granted Jefferson's not exactly the fastest guy on the team but still it took
a strike from the wall to get him out and that's what Bragg threw.

  The guy's an awsome outfielder. Problem was, playing next to Griffey he
looked average.

  George

>> it took a strike from the wall to get him out and that's what Bragg threw.

George, are you saying he missed the cut-off man?  Sounds like a sign of
inexperience to me!   :-)

Dan

    
    	Maybe he threw it through the cut-off man's glove.
    
    	They don't make those gloves like they used to, you know.
    

  It was a rope that the cut off man could have handled easily. One hop to
the catcher and Jefferson was history.

  Bragg is a really good outfielder. He's been able to hit in AAA and has
had a few hot streaks in the majors but so far he's been unable to show
consistency at the plate against major league pitching. But at .261 with 10
homers and a Runs Created per Game of 5.170 he may be coming along well enough
to hold down centerfield part time. 

  George

    The Red Sox are among the teams in the bidding for right-handed pitcher
    Rolando Arrojo, the latest
    Cuban defector available in a free agent auction.
    
    The Red Sox sent scouts to the Dominican Republic to see Arrojo, the
    ace of the Cuban national
    team until he defected just before the Atlanta Olympics. Agent Joe
    Cubas ran into some difficulty in
    establishing residency for Arrojo, a precondition for Arrojo to become
    a free agent, but finally did
    so in Costa Rica.
    
    The Red Sox submitted their offer Wednesday (April 16) for Arrojo, who
    was scouted by 19
    teams, and Cubas is supposed to narrow the field to a handful of
    finalists this weekend. There has
    been speculation that it may take as much as a $5 million bonus to sign
    Arrojo, but General
    Manager Dan Duquette said he thought Arrojo will be a "reasonable"
    signing.

 I was on vacation for the last couple of weeks, much of which was spent
 on Amtrak trains, the rest spent in non Red Sox territory.  As a result
 I only saw brief snippets of the Johnny Pesky banished from the dugout
 story..what was that all about?



 Jim

  Nothing. Just the Boston Sports press bashing Dan Duquette to create a story.

  For the last few years Pesky has been in uniform in the BoSox dugout doing
things like hitting flies before games. The Red Sox (not clear who) decided to
move him back to the front office where he's been for years. The press spun it
as an insensitive move against the aging former BoSox star by the cold hearted
Dan Duquette even though it's not clear if Duquette was involved. 

  Lost in the confusion was the fact that no Red Sox management has seen fit
to retire Pesky's number since he retired so I guess he's not that big a star.

  George

    
    Whether or not Pesky's number has been reired is irrelevant....only 4
    have been retired.  Pesky has been an icon at Fenway for years now, and
    is one of the most loved Red Sox players ever.  But I agree with you
    otherwise, George.....not a big deal, and perhaps not even to Pesky
    himself, but the press has had a field day.
    
    Dave

    
    
    
      Red Sox have certian criteria to retire a # George.  Hall of Fame,
    spend whole career as a Sox ect.  Pesky is not in the Hall thus his
    number is not reitired.  DD may turn out to be a good GM but this 
    could have been handled differently.  Although I do thing Shaughnessy
    made a bigger deal out of it than it really was.  But don't kid
    yourself, DD did have something to do with it.

    
>    Red Sox have certian criteria to retire a # George.  Hall of Fame,
>    spend whole career as a Sox ect.
    
    Actually, just "most" of his career as a Red Sox, or 10 years, I forget 
    which.  Joe Cronin, infamous Sox yes-man manager and GM, didn't start 
    with the Sox (Senators), nor did he have his best years with them. 
    But some have alleged that the number-retirement rules were tailored
    to allow him into the select club.
    
    glenn
    

    If it was DD's motivation to kick Pesky out, it could have been handled
    better by doing it last fall.
    
    If Jimy's motivated the boot, there is not much else that could have
    been done. 
    
    
    What motivation would DD have anyway? Save on laundry? Sunflower seeds?
    The only way I can think that it was DD's doing is if Pesky was
    fueling the player revolution.  More likely it was Jimy's doing - just
    not one of his buddies.

RE      <<< Note 660.98 by AD::HEATH "I killed a 6 pack to watch it die" >>>

>Although I do thing Shaughnessy
>    made a bigger deal out of it than it really was.  But don't kid
>    yourself, DD did have something to do with it.

  I don't believe for a minute that if Jimy Williams had wanted to keep Pesky
in the dugout Duquette would have forced him out. More likely it was the other
way around.

  Regardless of the current rule for retired numbers, what I'm saying is that
if the team wanted to recognize Johnny Pesky they there are lots of ways to do
it besides giving him a consolation prize sitting in the dugout. 

  That rule of having to play what ever years on the Sox and making the hall of
fame to get your number retired is not a constitutional amendment. Tom Yawkee
(who probably created that rule), Jean Yawkee or John Harrington could have
changed it with a pen stroke to retire Pesky's number if they felt he deserved
the honor but they didn't. So why should Jimy be stuck with him taking up a
seat in the dugout? 

  George 

Geez, they named a foul poll after him!  What more do you want?

Dan

    
    
     re Glenn....
    
      Point well taken, most of their career.
    
     re George..
      
      Go pound sand I'm not gonna argue with you.

    If it was DD's motivation to kick Pesky out, it could have been handled
    better by doing it last fall.

Well, it actually happened early in spring training as I remember the story. 
It's just that the press didn't hear about it till a couple weeks ago. It's just
like the stat guy...they suddenly hear about it so it is "current news".

Burns

    It's amazing how far the Globe has gone downhill the last few years.
    Their columnists, (Ryan, Shaugnessy and McDonough) are vindictive SOBs.
    Shaugnessy is the worst. He'll rip the hell out of people and when he's
    proven wrong he never admits it. It appears that if you don't feed them
    morsals of info your the target of his next column. For all of the BS
    they wrote about DD this year only Gammons has admitted that this year
    Sox are hard working, scrappy and gee even have some talent. Edes
    appears to be out of the Shaugnessy mold.
    
    Mike

RE      <<< Note 660.103 by AD::HEATH "I killed a 6 pack to watch it die" >>>

>     re George..
>      
>      Go pound sand I'm not gonna argue with you.

  The old take your ball and go home trick.

  George

    
    
      No its the ole "Why waste my time with you." trick

  Right, you start an argument with me specifically by name, call me an
apologist, slip in a political comment about the President (what ever that has
to do with baseball I don't know), I respond and you are wasting your time.

  I suppose if you are out to diss Dan Duquette and Bill Clinton and are not
interested in any form of debate you are wasting your time. 

  Excuse me, next time I'll try to remember that points of view that don't help
you advance your agenda are not welcome. 

  George 

    
    No, George, because your argument changes from note to note, you write
    that "what I meant was this" in one note, where in your previous note
    there was nothing closely resembling "what you meant."  It gets
    frustrating for someone to try to reason (or debate) with someone who
    refuses to concede a point, or to even stick with the same point,
    period.
    
    Just an observation.....you just like to debate, its not clear that you
    have any point of view at all.
    
    Dave 
                                  

RE                <<< Note 660.109 by AWECIM::RUSSO "claimin!" >>>

  You are not reading carefully. If you will notice notes .96 and .101 are
consistent.

  In note .96 I argued 

    1). that Pesky had been in the dugout only a few years and it was not
        clear Duquette was responsible for kicking him out. I suggested

    2). that they could retire Pesky's number if they wanted to honor him
        but no Red Sox management has seen fit to do that.

  In note .101 I argued that

    1). it was unlikely that Duquette would have thrown him out if Jimy wanted
        him there. That builds directly on 1. above adding the part about
        Jimy Williams

    2). they could change the rules on retired numbers if they wanted to in
        order to honor Pesky. That builds directly on 2. above adding only the
        part about how they are not bound by the old rules regarding retired
        numbers.

  The two notes are almost identical except that the 2nd answers some of the
complaints against the 1st. How can you say I'm not sticking with the same
point? Also having given two similar notes with the 2nd shooting down the
arguments against the 1st, why should I concede any points?

  George

>    2). they could change the rules on retired numbers if they wanted to in
>        order to honor Pesky. That builds directly on 2. above adding only the
>        part about how they are not bound by the old rules regarding retired
>        numbers.
>
> The two notes are almost identical except that the 2nd answers some of the
> complaints against the 1st. How can you say I'm not sticking with the same
> point?
    
    Because point 2) above is totally and completely irrelevant, way way
    way off the beaten path, and just plain silly.  If this _were_ actually
    in some kind of real "debating" contest, where anyone cared, this kind 
    of total non-sequitur would land you in last place.
    
    To wit: neither Johnny Pesky nor anyone else has ever said that he was 
    looking to be "honored", by a number retirement or anything else.  In 
    fact, Pesky feels that his work with the team was genuinely helping the 
    ballclub.  In the opinion of some players including Mo Vaughn, he has 
    done that.  Your answer of, "well, they could have changed the rules
    and retired his number but no one has asked that" has rightfully left
    most of us scratching our heads and pondering "huh?".  And that's 
    before it goes on and on, round and round, in mind-numbing futility.
    
    glenn
    

RE                     <<< Note 660.111 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN >>>

>    Because point 2) above is totally and completely irrelevant, way way
>    way off the beaten path, and just plain silly.  If this _were_ actually
>    in some kind of real "debating" contest, where anyone cared, this kind 
>    of total non-sequitur would land you in last place.
    
  Wrong again since both guys complaining also made comments about retired
numbers. In fact that's the only thing they talked about in their notes. So
if discussing retired numbers lands you in last place I've got company from
the two guys complaining the most.

  In fact, there was another guy who made a comment about retired numbers
with regard to Joe Cronnin. Now who was that. Hmmmmmm. Looks like last place
is getting to be a real crowd.

  George

> In fact, there was another guy who made a comment about retired numbers
> with regard to Joe Cronnin. Now who was that. Hmmmmmm. Looks like last place
> is getting to be a real crowd.
    
    Sorry, George, but I prefaced my information-only note with the
    following:
    
>      -< Just an FYI-- none of this has anything to do with Pesky issue >-
    
    That couldn't be more clear, but then again, details and facts and the
    like have never much mattered in these so-called "debates".
    
    glenn
    

  I'm still not on my own. Find a line like that in the notes of the other
two guys.

  And to top that all three of you have trashed this note by making it an
LDUC into my debating style. What does that have to do with the Red Sox 1997
season? Show me the disclaimer for getting into that.

  George

	The baseball season has truly begun. George is getting trashed. Ahhh...
smell that fresh spring air! :-)  

  Yes, hope springs eternal.

  George

    
    My comment about retired numbers was that I felt it was "irrelevant." 
    So, it was a non-comment on retired numbers, a dismissal at best.
    
    Therefore, I have no share or complete ownership of last place inthis
    "debate."
    
    Anyway, the Boston press is probably disappointed that the Red Sox seem
    to be a fundamentally sound team that is better than expected.  Gives
    them less fuel for the fire.  I can only imagine, because I just
    haven't read any of the papers in a long time.
    
    Dave

  No one has last place in this debate. All the views expressed on baseball
and baseball players have some merit.

  As for the press they won't miss a beat. If the Red Sox have a good run they
start hyping the blazes out of the team getting everyone pumped up. If the Red
Sox have a bad run they start bad mouthing the players, coaches, managers and
everyone else they feel some reader would love to see trashed. They know their
game, they know how to sell papers.

  George

   I read that he'll still be able to hit for fielding warm ups before
the games , in uniform, but will not be able to hang out in the dugout
during the game. So, what's the big deal?



    Lil Ed

    I know it's early in the season, that he hasn't been around the league
    once BUT it looks like Nomar will make the biggest impact on the Sox
    of any rookie they have had since 1975. It's great to see a prospect
    live up to his billing.
    
    Mike

    BOSTON - Right-hander Rick Trlicek was traded from the Boston Red Sox
    to the New York
    Mets on Monday for right-hander Toby Borland. Borland, 27, was 0-1 on
    13 relief appearances
    with the Mets this year. Acquired by the Mets last November from the
    Philadelphia Phillies, Borland
    has held opponents to a .220 average, with right-handed hitters batting
    .200. He was 7-3 last
    season with a career-high 69 relief appearances. He made his major
    league debut in 1994 after a
    season with Triple-A Scranton Wilkes-Barre. Trlicek, 28, was 3-4 in 18
    games with the Red Sox.
    He had 18 walks in 23 1/3 innings with a 4.63 ERA. He joined the Red
    Sox at spring training after
    spending part of last season with the Mets. He also played for Boston
    in 1994. 
    
    

	Ok.... what is wrong with Borland that the Mets haven't told us? He
seems too good to be true.

    The Sox now have a bullpen with a combined era of somewhere
    in the stratospheric 5.xx numbers. They have guys setting up the
    setter-up guys. It's a shambles. The regular players are now
    being expected to answering questions from the media with answers
    such as what Tim Naehering and Mo said recently. Tim said something
    to the affect that:
    "No player on this team is going to say something negative about
    another. This means no hitters are going to say anything bad
    about pitchers, and no pitchers are going to say anything bad
    about hitters. If this starts to happen, it will not be tolerated."
    Mo, when asked if he could pitch, would only say, "No way, I have
    enough problems as it is, doing what I'm supposed to be doing."
    It looks like the media is hoping some regular slips up and says
    something off the cuff about the bullpen. I think that Jimy for
    now has them under control, and they won't give the media what they
    want.
    I reall hope that the Duke has something in mind, because if they
    continue to flounder like this, they aren't going anywhere except
    to stay right where they are mired.
    This motley crew has not shown anything worthy of justifying sitting
    through a game irregardless of whether it's on TV or even at the
    ballpark. I haven't yet watched a game from start to finish this year,
    as too often I end up shaking my head at their inept defense, inept
    bullpen, or whatever, and either turn the channel, or shut off the
    TV. I don't anticipate Borland will be a huge improvement.
    
     2
    b

RE                    <<< Note 660.123 by NETCAD::BATTERSBY >>>

>    I reall hope that the Duke has something in mind, because if they
>    continue to flounder like this, they aren't going anywhere except
>    to stay right where they are mired.

  I think he does. Suppan, Pavano, Roes, Wadsin, Pena, Farrel, Rogers, the
minors are loaded with pitching prospects. If they get 2-3 starters out of
that bunch then sign another one they should be in good shape. Once you have
the starting rotation down it's not that hard to come up with 2-3 decent
pitchers for the bull pen.

  Trick will be finding or signing a closer,
  George

    
    
       If memory serves me correctly Borland gets arm burnout fast every
    year. He starts out good but fizzles big time down the stretch. 
    
    
    
    
    chap

    
    	Interesting stat is that Sox starters are only averaging 5.1
    innings per start. So your looking at 3, most times 4 pitchers a game
    for the Sox.
    
    Ron

    Last night is the low point of the season. Toby Borland couldn't throw
    strikes and noone could hit. But the worse part is that Nomar pulled a
    hamstring. I can not believe this pitching staff is as bad as it is.
    Why cann't Major League pitchers throw strikes? Suppan could be up by
    the weekend. And if this continues Rose and Pavano will be up by
    August.
    On another subject Mo's name is starting to creep into trade
    discussions. USA Today has reported that he may be headed to the Angels
    for Jim Edmonds and others. Gammons had something about him maybe going
    to the Astros for Bagwell. Bagwell told Gammons "Ask Nomar if he'll
    give me my #5 back when I go home to Boston". I'd assume they'd start
    putting Valentin on the trading Block. 
    
    Mike

  I doubt the pitchers in Pawtucket are the answer. As Gammons pointed out,
even the best pitchers coming up from AAA normally take a few years before they
can dominate major league hitters. Glavine and Smoltz are often used as
examples of guys who took a couple years to really get cranking. 

  Oddly enough, Steve Avery was one guy who came up and blew away major league
hitters in the regular season and playoffs when he was about 3 years out of
highschool but then maybe he should have taken longer. He seems to have lost 10
mph off his fast ball and is no longer the pitcher he was when he 1st came up. 

  I still believe the plan is in place and the BoSox team you see out on the
field today is a place holder. Last year the front of the wave was in Trenton
at the AA level. This year they are at AAA Pawtucket. Priority with the young
pitchers seems to be development rather than trying to patch holes in the make
believe team currently playing at the major league level. 

  Maybe we will see Jeff Suppan but if we do it will be because they feel he's
come to the point where the majors will be the best for his development. As for
Pavano and Rose, this is their 1st year of AAA, I doubt you will see them
before September call up time. And with Rose there's the thing about protecting
him from this winter's expansion draft. 

  Yes it's painful but think long term. The team stinks but the organization
is headed in the right direction.

  George

    
    
    
    :-)

    >On another subject Mo's name is starting to creep into trade
    >discussions. USA Today has reported that he may be headed to the
    >Angels for Jim Edmonds and others. Gammons had something about him maybe
    >going to the Astros for Bagwell. Bagwell told Gammons "Ask Nomar if he'll
    >give me my #5 back when I go home to Boston"
    
    Does Jim Edmonds pitch? I know Jeff Bagwell doesn't.
    Why does Gammons in his infinite wisdom (that's a crock I know),
    think that trading a 30+ HR hitter for a non-pitcher like Bagwell
    is going to help the Sox pitching staff woes???
    
    I'd suggest first thinking about bringing back Fischer (the pitching
    coach the Sox used to have who worked well with Clemens and the other
    Sox pitchers). I don't have the warm fuzzies at all with the current Sox
    pitching coach.
    
     2
    b

RE                    <<< Note 660.130 by NETCAD::BATTERSBY >>>

>    Does Jim Edmonds pitch? I know Jeff Bagwell doesn't.
>    Why does Gammons in his infinite wisdom (that's a crock I know),
>    think that trading a 30+ HR hitter for a non-pitcher like Bagwell
>    is going to help the Sox pitching staff woes???

  He doesn't. Most people watching the team closely know that the solution to
the pitching problem is working it's way up the system.

  Also, these trade rumors are almost always based on rumors which have no
relation to any discussion going on between General Managers of different
teams.
    
>    I'd suggest first thinking about bringing back Fischer (the pitching
>    coach the Sox used to have who worked well with Clemens and the other
>    Sox pitchers). I don't have the warm fuzzies at all with the current Sox
>    pitching coach.
    
  Fischer already has a job. I think he's working for the AAA Richmond Braves.
According to the Globe he showed up at Pawtucket a week or so back and said
hello to Pavano and Rose.

  George

I don't buy the idea that there is a grand new plan to build this team 
up from the minors and that we are just a few years from really competing 
for a championship.  I've heard this before.  Kevin Morton was going 
to be great.  Frankie Rodreges (sp?) who was the best natural baseball 
player that the Red Sox scouts had ever seen, could throw 90+ mph from 
the hole as a shortstop, hit over .500 in college with lots of homeruns,
decided to pitch because that was the quickest way to the majors.  And
let's not forget Trot Nixon who was going to be with the Red Sox in 
September of the year after high school.  Truth is that it is almost 
impossible to tell who is going to be really good in the majors.  This 
is the same plan that every team in MLB has.  If we have pitchers that 
are leaders in AAA, then they seem great candidates for pitching in 
Fenway in the coming weeks (not years).  I don't think the organization 
is heading in the right direction given how players have been managed 
over the last couple of years.  This team is not far from looking like
last years Detroit Tigers - after all, we have a good start at it by 
being in last place.  We need to face that this is not a good team, that 
our GM plays more hunches than Joe Morgan, that the owners will not 
spring for big bucks for star players, that Mo and Valentin may be 
traded away for God knows what and that the best thing we have is the 
park that the team plays in (and who knows what kind of a replacement 
this organization will build or when it will happen).

Jim (not-feeling-too-good-about-this-team-this-morning)

RE                       <<< Note 660.132 by STAR::EVANS >>>

  Not to despair, things are not as bleak as they seem.

>Kevin Morton was going 
>to be great.  Frankie Rodreges (sp?) who was the best natural baseball 
>player that the Red Sox scouts had ever seen, could throw 90+ mph from 

  All teams have some prospects and under Lou Gorman there were a few guys
who came through the system. Look at Mo, an A.L. MVP.

  What's going on now, however, is different. Dan Duquette, who built the
best minor league organization in the National League now has both his AAA
and AA teams winning and the system is loaded with pitching prospects. It's
not just 1 hitter and 1 pitcher, it's a bunch of them.

>Truth is that it is almost 
>impossible to tell who is going to be really good in the majors.  This 
>is the same plan that every team in MLB has.  

  Yes, this is true. Difference is, Duquette showed in Montreal that he can
really make it work and from what I see in Pawtucket and Trenton it appears
he's done it again.

>If we have pitchers that 
>are leaders in AAA, then they seem great candidates for pitching in 
>Fenway in the coming weeks (not years).  

  Why? Duquette doesn't give a rip if the team wins this year. Three years from
now how will the Red Sox be better off if the kids struggled as major league
relievers or pitched as starters in AAA 3 years ago? Who will care about 1997
in 2001? Do you feel cheated today because Nomar wasn't rushed to the majors in
1995? In 2001 will you still be pissed off that the team stunk in 1997?

  Of course not and Dan Duquette knows that very well. Lou Gorman said on a
Post Game show once that he wasn't willing to take the heat that would come
from losing while building an organization from the bottom up. Turned out he
lost anyway. At least now we have a plan in place and if you look at the minor
league stats you can see it's not just 1 hot prospect/year, he's got a bunch of
talent coming along. 

  Bide your time, make a trip to Rhode Island, catch the Thunder at Norwitch
or Portland. The kids are come'n.

  George

    Whether you admit it or not most of the best teams in baseball are
    built from the farm up. Yankees, Braves, Indians, Dodgers,
    Mariners, Rangers all have had major infusions of talent from their
    Minors. In the last 4 years the Red Sox have not had a single player
    advance through the minors to help them except Nomar. They have not
    developed any pitching that has helped except Sele (and that help is
    not great). Go back and look at the above teams and look what they have
    added. You bring up the flunkies that didn't make it. Well 6 years ago
    Mo, Valentin and Naehring were all highly thought of prospects that did
    pan out. A lot of people in baseball think highly of the Sox farm
    system. These are people who should know more then any of us what the
    Sox have. Baseball America had the Sox rated 4th best in MLB.
    Right now the Sox have more pitching prospects in AA and AAA then just 
    about anyone. Other then Sadler most of the top position players are in
    AA or A ball. 
    Whether we like it or not the farm system is the only way the Sox are
    going to get better. Fenway park is a financial albatross on the
    organization. Unlike the other teams with new stadiums the Sox can at
    the max afford 35-40 mill per year in salaries. 
    
    Mike

    
>I don't buy the idea that there is a grand new plan to build this team 
>up from the minors and that we are just a few years from really competing 
>for a championship.  I've heard this before.
    
    ...in Atlanta and Cleveland and Los Angeles and...
    
>    Kevin Morton was going to be great.
    
    Pitchers are a risky business anyay - to get one who works out, you
    probably want to start with 3-4.  But Morton's minor league numbers
    didn't point to likely success.
    
>     Frankie Rodreges (sp?) who was the best natural baseball 
>player that the Red Sox scouts had ever seen, could throw 90+ mph from 
>the hole as a shortstop, hit over .500 in college with lots of homeruns,
>decided to pitch because that was the quickest way to the majors.
    
    And he still might succeed in the majors, even though he hadn't even
    mastered AAA when he was brought up - which seems to be a very
    dangerous manuever.
     
>      And
>let's not forget Trot Nixon who was going to be with the Red Sox in 
>September of the year after high school.  
    
    Based upon fabulous play in high school, which _is_ too low a level
    to judge reasonably (which is why scouts who can pick out high
    schoolers with real talent are in high demand).
    
>    Truth is that it is almost 
>impossible to tell who is going to be really good in the majors.
    
    That all depends upon when you look.
    
    For pitchers, it's just hard, I agree. There are things to look for
    (low hit & walk rate, strong arm, and high strikeouts), but there
    are injuries even where teams are careful, and a history of pitchers
    suddenly finding it at age 30 (look at Doug Jones' career sometime).
    
    For hitters, however, it's not that hard once they've reached AA.
    Much moreso than pitching statistics, hitting statistics _can_ be
    reasonably estimated based upon minor league performance.
    
    Joe

 I wonder if NESN will go "free" for the rest of the year like Sports Channel
 did.  


 Jim

I already get NESN for free, as well as SC, ESPN and ESPN2.

But nobody asked me, so I'll go away now.

    
    
        Who sings that song....
    
       Dreeeeeeeeeeammmmmm
     Whenever I want you all I got to do is dreeeeammmmmmmm?????
    
    
    
    Chap

    Roy Orbison

	What is funny about all this is that just a few years ago people were
complaining about spending all that cash on players that just didn't have good
careers in Boston, or were on the downside of their careers when we got them.

	Now it is the, "We need help now" attitude. Why go out and get some
real players when there isn't enough money to pay for them all? Lets see, we
need starting pitching, we need a bullpen. After that is said and done, our
team will contend. How much would all that cost? Would it make much sense to
make a trade for someone now who will probably be a free agent at the end of
the season? Oh.... add in we need a manager, a defensive catcher to replace
Hassleman (make him the dh and boot Stanley), and what are you left with? Too
many holes to fill for this season. 

	I think the best thing to do is to bring up the talent from the farm
system. Not all at once, but as time goes on during the season. See what Jimy
can do with them. If he can do something, then maybe keep him around for the
length of his contract. But this year is a scrub as we have zero pitching. 



Glen

    
    
>        Who sings that song....
    
>       Dreeeeeeeeeeammmmmm
>     Whenever I want you all I got to do is dreeeeammmmmmmm?????
    
    
    
 The Everly Brothers

    Vaughn for Bagwell ??     I'd make that trade in a second.  The problem
    is, Mo's not exactly a NL player now is he ??
    
    
    
    greg

    
    	ANY minor league player in the Boston farm system. Who is NOT
    eligible for the expansion draft next season. Will NOT be brought up
    to the major leagues this season. Brian Rose can win 20 games this
    season in Pawtucket and you won't see him in Boston. You bring up Rose
    and you have to protect him. Which leaves someone else available for
    the expansion draft.
    
    Ron 

    I would trade Mo for Bagwell, too.
    
    About Sele..the more he pitches, the
    worse he looks.  He came up with such
    high hopes and runs hot and cold.
    
    He seems to lack some mental toughness.
    How old is he now, anyway?  Perhaps
    he still has a lot to learn???
    
    The Sox are a wash this year, which is OK.
    I agree that DD is doing a very credible job
    with the minor leagues.  Isn't it about a 5-7
    year process to develop minor leaguers who
    will eventually make it at the major league
    level?
    
    I was reading a baseball magazine on a recent
    plane trip; the author of the article talked
    about DD in Montreal, and how he did there what
    he is trying to do in Boston.  However, because
    Montreal is not a baseball town on the scale
    of Boston, it wasn't as necessary to LOOK competitive
    while building the franchise.
    
    

    ;141 is right.  I was thinking of "In Dreams"(I walk with you..I talk..)
    
    And let's give equal time to Bobby Darin's 'Dream'n(I'm always dreaming)
    
    Chappy wasn't this the wrong place to ask that
    
    George, what some of us are saying is build a foundation of players who
    will execute defensively on which to develop the pitching.  Braves fans
    should recall that it was the several months of Belliard at ss that
    coincided with the turnaround of Smoltz,Glavine in 1991.

    >Chappy wasn't this the wrong place to ask that
     He's just being a Yankee Fan. 

RE                      <<< Note 660.145 by OK4ME::BREEN >>>
    
>    George, what some of us are saying is build a foundation of players who
>    will execute defensively on which to develop the pitching.  Braves fans
>    should recall that it was the several months of Belliard at ss that
>    coincided with the turnaround of Smoltz,Glavine in 1991.

  Bill, I believe you are the only one who holds to the notion that as goes
defense at 2nd base so goes the team. Now if you believe that, fine. Maybe some
day you will take over as GM, get a team full of Rafael Belliards who hit a
combined .162, throw batting practice from the mound but never let a ball slip
through the middle or right side and your guys will win it all. 

  But until that revolution comes, the best GMs are the ones who use the old
method of concentrating on hitting and pitching and create a steady supply of
that type of talent in their farm system.

  Dan Duquette has a track record of being able to do that. He did it in
Montreal and from the looks of Pawtucket and Trenton he's doing again for the
Red Sox. At least let's give it a chance before we declare it a failure. If
that doesn't work, then maybe it will be time for the Belliard revolution.

  George

Bobby Darin did "Dream Lover", didn't he?

 Yes.

    
>    Vaughn for Bagwell ??     I'd make that trade in a second.  The problem
>    is, Mo's not exactly a NL player now is he ??
    
    Same here.  In a heartbeat, without hesitation.  I'd even think about 
    the trade for Edmonds.  Especially if Mo's true sentiments are that 
    he is unhappy and wants out after 1998.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
        Mike B was right!!!  :-)
    
    
        BTW YOU ARE NOT GETTING BAGWELL FOR VAUGHN!!!!
    
    
            Talk about overhyping your own players.
    
    Chap

>                  -< I'll get creamed by Glenn for that last >-
    
    You're right...
    
>    George, what some of us are saying is build a foundation of players who
>    will execute defensively on which to develop the pitching.  Braves fans
>    should recall that it was the several months of Belliard at ss that
>    coincided with the turnaround of Smoltz,Glavine in 1991.
    
    While Belliard joined the Braves in 1991, there was no turnaround for
    Smoltz; he had a better year in 1990 than 1991.  Glavine's 1991 was
    a breakthrough, but it's continued ever since, even though Belliard
    was only at most a part-time starter in 1991 and 1992 and a defensive
    replacement ever since.  He's never been a major factor.  Far and away
    most of the innings at SS have been put in by Jeff Blauser who has 
    never made anyone's A or even B list as a defensive shortstop.
    
    Every pitcher needs his defense and bad defense kills, but there are
    still such things as quality pitching and lousy pitching.  The Red 
    Sox' pitching currently stinks, defense aside.
    
    glenn
    

    
>        BTW YOU ARE NOT GETTING BAGWELL FOR VAUGHN!!!!
>        
>        Talk about overhyping your own players.    
    
    Bagwell was one of our own players.
    
    Get ahold of yourself, Chappy.  When half the deals made today are
    done just as much for payroll considerations as for on-the-field
    reasons, anything can happen.  Look at the Braves getting Kenny 
    Lofton.  Something like that never "should" have happened.
    
    glenn
    
  

    I don't think you'd get Bagwell for Vaughn but you may get Bagwell and
    Hudek for Mo and Valentin. 
    What I'd really like to know is why did Bagwell say to ask Nomar for #5
    when he came home to Boston? Is there something up? 
    As far as trading for Edmonds and not pitching what pitching is out
    there to trade for? People want alot for pitchers. 
    
    Mike
    

    
    The Vaughn for Bagwell trade talks include other players..6 or 7 total
    from what Peter Gammons mentioned and it was something like Bagwell
    Reynolds and 2 other guys for Vaughn, Valentine and Slocomb or ????
    
    Califonia trade was Vaughn and Mack for Edmunds and 2 others....
    
    But its all rumors,  also heard FLorida is calling on Vaughn but 
    for what or who is unknown.....
    
    When you shit the bed this early, they'll probably try to trade the 
    whole team......start from scratch like the Celtics and Bruins.
    
    /Westy
    
    
    

There's a thought ... maybe trade The Red Sox for The Bruins.

    No George and Glenn, if I was doing a rebuild I'd zero on on three
    positions: cf,ss and catcher.  At the point of contention I would
    absolutely insist on a second baseman who had experience with the
    double play and could be depended on to execute in the clutch.
    
    Smoltz had to overcome a problem of getting frustrated by mistakes
    whether his own, his defense or umpires.  If you look up 1991 you will
    see that Belliard started for about three months while Blauser was out
    and during that period the Braves moved into series contention with the
    Dodgers.
    
    You both are absolutely right.  I'm not sure I see a single GM today
    using the time tested methods I'm suggesting to build a team the way
    Mack, Rickey, Stengel and others did.

    
    	For what its worth the Sox lead the league in double plays turned.
    The positive is that Nomar and Val are a pretty good combination. The
    negative is that the Sox have let so many runners on base, they should
    be leading the league in turned DP's.
    
    Ron

    The immortal Toby Borland was designated for assignment. You know
    things are going bad when you have to admit the Mets got the better of
    the Trilicek trade.
    
    Mike

    Yo Glenn,
    
    I agree about that Lofton trade but I fell off the chair when I heard
    Kanas City let Michael Tucker go....they'll regret that deal for years
    to come.
    
    Maj

RE                      <<< Note 660.160 by DONVAN::SCOPA >>>

>    I agree about that Lofton trade but I fell off the chair when I heard
>    Kanas City let Michael Tucker go....they'll regret that deal for years
>    to come.
    
  Right now the deal stinks for K.C. but I still believe that in the long
run Jermaine Dye will come around. He was playing really well for the Braves
last year. Maybe his slump has to do with being bumbed out over not being
on a championship team or maybe it has something to do with his injury.

  In any event he's an excellent outfielder with a cannon for an arm and he's
shown he can hit major league pitching. Stats Inc has him listed as a future
all-star.

  Dye will be back,
  George

So who is the guy playing ss last night?  Is Nomar down?

Burns

<<< Note 660.162 by skylab.zko.dec.com::FISHER "Gravity: Not just a good idea.  It's the law!" >>>

>So who is the guy playing ss last night?  Is Nomar down?

  Mike Benjamin has been starting at Short in Pawtucket most of the year.
Now he's up, Rodriguez is playing Short for Pawtucket again.

  George

    
    Cleveland was really hurt by the Lofton deal (who is a free agent at
    the end of the year, and going to walk).  Justice is only hitting 
    .371 with 13 HRs and a high .400 OBP.  Grissom is struggling.  I
    bet no one will say Grissom is the better CF now (remember the 
    ridiculous biased discussions during the series - Lofton is the best
    and everyone knows it).
    

  As long as Justice stays healthy he's a really fine power hitter. He had some
really good seasons for the Braves. 

  He does seem to be a risk, however, to end up on the DL. Nothing like Canseco
but it happens.

  George

    Not realizing that it was just temporary I was looking at the Cleveland
    lineup the other day that had him hitting 7th.  The first six were not
    on the team that went to six with Atlanta.
    
    Hart is quite the aggressive GM.  He has just signed his new core
    through the millennium specifically Justice and Thome.
    
    No commentary here I really don't follow Cleveland closely enough. 
    Joe, Groaner any thoughts on all this?

Regarding Lofton being the best centerfielder, 
I'll take Junior Griffey over Lofton.

Jim

    
    
       I wouldn't trade Bernie for Lofton.

    
>       I wouldn't trade Bernie for Lofton.
    
    I wouldn't either.
    
    I think we're hearing less and less from the Groaner as the 
    once-untouchable John Hart continues to make questionable moves.
    
    We're not hearing much about how great Cleveland's pitching is, 
    either.
    
    
    glenn
    

    Griffey is (arguably) the best player in baseball ...... I wouldn't
    trade him for Ken Lofton either ........ but after Junior, Lofton has
    got to be the best CF in the game ....... Bernie Williams is a fine
    player, and underrated IMHO, but Lofton is a terrific defensive player
    and has better overall offensive skills than Williams.
    
    greg

    
    
        How does Lofton outrank Bernie?
    
          SB's yes.
        But Bernie has more power and hits for average he's been over .300
    for the past three yrs, .355 this year. Plus he is great defensively.
    Lofton may have the slight edge defensively but SLIGHT.
    
    Chap

    Lofton vs. Williams ....... it's very close ....... both are great
    defensively ....... both can run, although one steals many more bases
    and creates more havoc on the bases ........ one has more power .....
    both hit for average ........ very close ........ I give a slight edge
    to Lofton, but I'd love Bernie to be on the Sox ........
    
    
    greg

    Lofton is the premier leadoff hitter in baseball.  Lofton consistantly
    steals 60-70 bases compared to Williams's 15-20!  Williams had a great
    year offensively in '96, but typically he has only hit 10 more
    homers than Lofton.
        
    I'll take Lofton over Williams any day.   And maybe Lofton over
    Griffey depending on the makeup of the rest of the team.
    

    <---- RE: .174 brings up an interesting point in comparing
    Lofton & Williams. Apparently Williams bats 3rd and Lofton
    leads off. Now seeing that Lofton's power numbers aren't 
    all that far away from Williams's power numbers, I'd give
    Lofton the edge simply because leading off he isn't expected
    to put up the power numbers he does. Whereas Williams being
    in the 3rd spot in the batting order is expected to put up
    power numbers. One has to wonder how Williams might do if
    he was on another club and batting leadoff. Also, if Lofton
    was on another team and was hitting 3rd, would he equal the
    numbers Williams is putting up?
    
     2
    b

    
>    <---- RE: .174 brings up an interesting point in comparing
>    Lofton & Williams. Apparently Williams bats 3rd and Lofton
>    leads off. Now seeing that Lofton's power numbers aren't 
>    all that far away from Williams's power numbers, I'd give
>    Lofton the edge simply because leading off he isn't expected
>    to put up the power numbers he does.
    
    Conversely, Lofton is a leadoff hitter, so he should be expected 
    to get on base more often.  He doesn't (hasn't, the last two years).
    Nor are his power numbers close to Williams' over the past two
    seasons.
    
    Except for steal bases, Williams does it all.  Throw in the fact 
    that he's a year-and-a-half younger, and I'll take Bernie.
    
    glenn
    

    
     
    BATTERS        BA   SLG   OBA   G  AB   R   H  TB 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO SB CS  E
    Williams     .344  .548  .434  46 186  41  64 102 15  1  7  34  32  22  7  4  1
    Lofton       .364  .451  .415  45 195  37  71  88  7  2  2  19  17  29 14 10  1
    
    
    He are this year's stats, FWIW.  Note that once again, even with
    Lofton enjoying a monster season with the .364 average, Williams is 
    still getting on base more often, and has even scored more runs than
    Lofton.  The power numbers aren't close (~100 point advantage in 
    slugging percentage, same as in 1996).
    
    Bernie Williams is still one of the most unheralded players in 
    baseball, an amazing feat given that he plays in New York _and_ 
    just had a great postseason on a World Championship team.
    
    glenn
    
    

    
    Lofton is way better than Bernie Williams.
    Hart traded Lofton because he had one year left with Cleveland, and it
    was a very good move.  When the season's over and Glen is rooting for
    *his* new team (cuz the sox are tanked) and Cleveland is the playoffs
    we can talk again.

    
    
       Go Glen!!!!

    
    Oh boy - lots of opinions to throw in...
    
    The Justice signing was questionable.
    
    The Grissom signing was simply poor; not that he's going to be
    overpaid, particularly, just that I don't want the Indians to be the
    ones paying him.
    
    The Thome signing is terrific; it makes up for the other two.
    
    The pitching will come around; it's not likely to be the best in the
    league again this year, though; too many off seasons and too much
    aging have taken care of that.
    
    Bernie Williams is, at this point, more valuable than Lofton.  Hate
    to say it, but Chappy's actually right.  B^)
    
    Lofton would in fact be someone I'd _avoid_ signing right now.  All
    indications are that he's going downhill (not surprising, since he'll
    turn 30 by the end of the month); only his average is really still
    up this year, while he continues to walk less and get caught stealing
    more.
    
    Griffey is more valuable than either, though despite great improvements
    defensively he's still not the equal of either in the field.  But
    that bat...
    
    Joe

    Joe,  by "more valuable" do you mean in rotis baseball?  Lofton can
    shake up an opposing pitcher and motivate his own team in the way that
    Ricky Henderson used too.  True, a three run homer by Williams or
    Griffey can shake things up a bit too!  But, there are more players
    that can hit a homer than there are scary lead-off hitters.

    
    
        Ask Maddux,Glavine,Hill,Pavlik,Smoltz,Mussina and Erickson how much
    Bernie shhok things up last year.
    
    
    
    Chap

RE: .180

Hey, what's wrong with being 30?

I'M not old yet, and I'm 30.  8^)

	Just don't look in that mirror, slab! :-)

RE   <<< Note 660.182 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "NEW YORK YANKEES WORLD CHAMPS" >>>

>        Ask Maddux,Glavine,Hill,Pavlik,Smoltz,Mussina and Erickson how much
>    Bernie shhok things up last year.
    
  If you are talking about his post season performance, that wouldn't say much.
The way hitters run hot and cold all they could say for sure was that he was
blazing hot for about three weeks. 

  Now if you were to ask the A.L. pitchers about how Williams played during
the entire season then you would get a better picture of his overall ability.

  George

    
>    Joe,  by "more valuable" do you mean in rotis baseball?
    
    No, just more valuable.  Williams gets on base more, hits for more
    power, and might even by this point be better defensively (Lofton once 
    was incredible defensively, but he's noticably slipped a notch).
    
>    Lofton can
>    shake up an opposing pitcher and motivate his own team in the way that
>    Ricky Henderson used too.  True, a three run homer by Williams or
>    Griffey can shake things up a bit too!  But, there are more players
>    that can hit a homer than there are scary lead-off hitters.
    
    If both have equal secondary effects, what does it matter?
    
    Joe

    >If both have equal secondary effects, what does it matter?
    
    Good point. I thought about it over the weekend and changed my
    mind. My point was that Lofton's skills are more scarce so he is
    more valuable. But, 45 dingers wins more games than 60 steals so who
    cares?  Junior is more valuable.  If Williams puts up another year
    like '96, I'll agree there too.

Of course if Junior stays on his current homerun pace, he will 
break the all time record for homers in a season (which is 
certainly better for putting people in seats than stealing 
bases).  I like the way Griffey plays the game.

Jim

    
    	Last time I ckecked, he and Martinez projected out to about 64 HR's
    	for the year.
    

    
    Currently, Griffey is averaging a homer every 8.61 at bats.  So it
    would take 525 at bats to get to 61 homers.  He is getting 4.04 at bats
    per game.  So the remaining 525-198=327 at bats would take another 81
    games.  Not bad considering that there are 112 games left.
    
    He is WAY over the 61 homer pace.  He is on pace to hit 75 homers.  No
    way will he keep that pace up.
    
    Marc
    

    
    	All I care about is if and when someone reaches 55-58 HR's. That
    other teams continue to pitch to the player and don't intentionally
    walk them. Yes, there will be appropriate times to walk a player. I
    would hate to see a 2 out bases empty walk. If a record is going to be
    broken, let it be broken.
    
    Ron

    Maris had two records to chase, 60 in 154 games and 61 in 162 in 1961.
    He had his 59th with a game to go but couldn't get #60.  I was actually
    at Fenway in one of the final 8 games where he had a shot at either 60
    or 61.  I remember thinking I should get over to that corner of the
    right field grandstand between the foul pole and the bleachers.
    
    I believe Halberstam recorded that Maris felt some pitchers worked
    around him but others challenged him.  It was a Redsox pitcher Stafford
    who finally gave up #61 at the old Stadium.

              
>    I believe Halberstam recorded that Maris felt some pitchers worked
>    around him but others challenged him.  It was a Redsox pitcher Stafford
>    who finally gave up #61 at the old Stadium.
    
    Stallard, Tracy.  I believe Stafford pitched for the Yanks.
    
    Maris was in one of the best-protected positions in history and I 
    don't think there was too much pitching around him.  Griffey's in 
    a damned good spot, too.  I don't think unjustifiable intentional 
    walks will be a problem.  There is more shame in that in giving up
    the dinger, the fans know it and will let the pitcher hear about it.  
    What you will see is pitchers bearing down as not to be The One, but 
    that shouldn't come into play until around #60, at least.  
    
    If anything I'd think Griffey would be having more trouble with 
    being pitched around now, when the games still "count" for so many
    teams.  He's not having a problem getting enough good pitches to hit, 
    apparently.  Another thing in Junior's favor is that he's a pretty
    good bad-ball hitter as these things go (as opposed to a Frank 
    Thomas, where if he were challenging the record, would undoubtedly
    stand up there and take balls an inch off the plate, per usual).
    
    glenn
    

    
    	I think there's probably some "prestige" in being able to say that
    	you gave up a record-breaking HR ... no?
    
    	I mean, it's not like you gave up the record-breaking BB to the
    	guy [since all he had to do was stand there and watch bad pitches
    	go by] ... he actually had to jump on a pitch and knock it out of
    	the park, which takes at least some skill.
    

    Tracy Stallard not the Yanks Stafford.  Don Schwall was another of
    those Pavanos and Roses we had in those days.  What with an emphasis on
    slugging and eschewing of team defense none of them had much of a
    chance.
    
    Mantle had the famous quack needle that took him out the last several
    weeks leaving Maris to fend for himself.

    
    I rented Ken Burns "8th inning" of Baseball last night, which covered
    the 1960s, including Maris breaking the Babe's record.  Pretty sad that
    in hindsight, Maris regretted breaking the record because it caused him
    mostly grief.  The cruelest thing was the commisioner suggesting that
    an asterisk be put next to his name because of the longer season.  Did
    that asterisk get put there after all?  Pretty sad.....
    
    Dave

    
    	The 154/162 thing is a tough call.  On one hand, a season is a
    	season, and he did indeed break the season record for HR's.  On
    	the other hand, it took him eight more games to do it.
    
    	154/60 = 2.57 games between HR's
    	162/61 = 2.66 games between HR's
    
    	Ruth would have projected out to 63 HR's, had he had the chance.
    

    They started late in warmer weather, generally about 4/15.  They played
    11 home , 11 away against all seven other teams.  Travel was by train
    and to make up for extra days traveling they played a lot of double
    headers.  Ed Lipp has a book with the breakdown of Ruth's homers, I
    don't know how he did on double headers.
    
    I would guess all things considered that 60 in a 162 season today is
    about equal to 60 in 1927.  Expansion is equaled by some tough budgets
    for the Browns, Redsox etc. which meant some weak #4,#5 starters. 
    Lights vs day games seems to be a wash.
    
    I don't know how many other teams carry one lefthander but if that
    shortage pertains to most of the league that could be a great advantage
    for Griffey.  Junior does hit his share off lefty mistakes though.
    
    The absence of the true beanball could be a factor except beanball
    usage seemed to be cyclic.  That may have been a factor in other cases
    not Griffey vs Ruth.  I'd watch out for Bell, Thomas and maybe even Mo
    getting hot.  McGuire too.

 
>    I would guess all things considered that 60 in a 162 season today is
>    about equal to 60 in 1927.  Expansion is equaled by some tough budgets
>    for the Browns, Redsox etc. which meant some weak #4,#5 starters. 
>    Lights vs day games seems to be a wash.
    
    Most of all, the game was just completely different.  As late as 1928
    (in fact in both 1927 and 1928), Ruth and Gehrig were the only players
    in the AL to hit over 20 home runs.  Ruth didn't see the kind of 
    fastballs and hard breaking pitches that Maris had to deal with in 
    1961.  Ruth would not have survived two at-bats in 1961 with that 
    46-oz bat he wielded, but in 1927 he was just one of a very few to
    take great advantage of the kind of pitching he was up against.
    
    As far as I'm concerned, until that circa-1930 offensive boom died 
    down, you're talking about whole different environment for hitters.
    No need to even get into the travel, day/night game issues...
    
    glenn
    

    Well they didn't have several inside the park homeruns every day.  The
    outfield defense has just become horrific what with these Duquette
    style GM's and their Gimbel counters saying "more offense, damn the
    defense".  In fact wasn't it you Glenn who said "Every team has a
    Pemberton".

>    Well they didn't have several inside the park homeruns every day.
    
    Please... that was a one-time, never-see-it-again-in-our-lifetime
    aberration.  There were many more ITPHRs in days gone by.  And what
    does it have to do with the quality of pitching as concerns balls
    flying over the fence, where no one can catch them (the essential 
    substance of the Ruth/Maris debate)?  Just check out the old films,
    with a vintage Burleigh Grimes lobbing up the old shine ball at 
    75 mph...
    
>    The
>    outfield defense has just become horrific what with these Duquette
>    style GM's and their Gimbel counters saying "more offense, damn the
>    defense".  In fact wasn't it you Glenn who said "Every team has a
>    Pemberton".
    
    If such a thing could be determined, I'd bet every penny I own that 
    outfield defense is better now than in Ruth's day (again, not that 
    it has any relevance). But we're talking about 1961 in any case, the
    prime of your life ol' man... ;-)
    
    If I made such a quote it was that just about every team has one
    Pemberton in the OF, i.e. left field, though.  He's a serious liability 
    in RF.  But in Ruth's day, they wouldn't let Pemberton on the field 
    not because he couldn't hit, catch or throw well enough but because
    he was black.  Another serious factor overlooked...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn you are absolutely,dead wrong.  Outfielders were ten times better
    on average but only went down hill big time from the 70s on.  The
    reason: too many players learning the game in the minor leagues when
    prior to 1970 there were hosts of minor leagues, sand lot leagues, city
    leagues etc.
    
    Getting the blacks in helped a lot and led to the National League from
    1955-1970 being the best baseball of all time but then the blacks
    switched to basketball en masse or football.  Look at Michael Jordan;
    he hardly played any baseball at all as a kid, it's obvious.  Most of
    his white counterparts the same.
    
    If there's any hope for your argument it's in the latin American
    players that constitute of 1/3 of the players today.  They learn the
    game like the American kids did prior to 1970 with games going on from
    April to October all day and night.
    
    I absolutely guarantee you that I can watch any game any night and see
    a half dozen mistakes (double if it's the Redsox) that would not have
    been tolerated even by the 1965 Redsox never mind teams in the 20s and
    30s where you could find 1000 outfielders from Worcester to Cape Cod
    and Maine,NH and RI that could play 154 games and not have a fly ball
    drop over their head like a saw this morning, sans comment, on ESPN
    review of a play.  Hell the Redsox won a game the other night because
    the Whitesox CENTERFIELDER didn't know how to come in on a soft liner.
    
    I would put George Yardley into a 1997 NBA game before I'd attempt to
    get half these guys into Connie Mack's outfield without giving the old
    guy a heart attack.

RE                      <<< Note 660.200 by OK4ME::BREEN >>>

>    Well they didn't have several inside the park homeruns every day.  The
>    outfield defense has just become horrific what with these Duquette
>    style GM's and their Gimbel counters saying "more offense, damn the
>    defense".  In fact wasn't it you Glenn who said "Every team has a
>    Pemberton".

  Just as an aside, when Braves Field was first built back in 1915 they moved
the fences out really far, almost back to the RR tracks, because the owner
at the time liked inside the park home runs.

  George

>    Glenn you are absolutely,dead wrong.  Outfielders were ten times better
>    on average but only went down hill big time from the 70s on.
    
    Just like the rest of the world...
    
>    I absolutely guarantee you that I can watch any game any night and see
>    a half dozen mistakes (double if it's the Redsox) that would not have
>    been tolerated even by the 1965 Redsox never mind teams in the 20s and
>    30s where you could find 1000 outfielders from Worcester to Cape Cod
>    and Maine,NH and RI that could play 154 games and not have a fly ball
>    drop over their head like a saw this morning, sans comment, on ESPN
>    review of a play. 
    
    Yadayadayada... I thought we resolved this the other day.  Take the 
    dropped-fly ball comment up with Fred Snodgrass' surviving relatives...
    
    glenn
    

    Fred Snodgrass wasn't using a fishing net like these guys.

    And I'm still waiting for a pre-1970s-era-rationalization for that 
    boner Pesky pulled in 1946...
    
    glenn
    

  Holding on to the ball while Enos Slaughter scored from 1st?

  George

    Being only 39 I cann't remember the 60's (hell a lot of 45-50 year olds
    cann't remember them for differant reasons) but I do not think the
    talent levels have dwindled in the past 25 years. There were great
    teams, good team and lousy teams now and then. There was a lot less
    foriegn and black players playing then. As much as people complain
    about Little league and such there are a lot more kids playing AAU, and
    other Regional tournaments, there are more baseball camps, more formal
    training and more outside competition between now and the 70's when I
    grew up. Right now if you want to play a higher competition then your
    local Litttle League or Babe Ruth League you can go and find an AAU
    team to play on. Kids in the North can play 50-60 games a year and kids
    in the South can play all year round. So today's top youngsters are
    playing more games then 35 years ago. 
    TV I think also has changed peoples perceptions. Maybe 5% of the nation
    in the 30s ever saw Babe Ruth play. People's impressions of them were
    molded by radio, newspapers and myths. Today 95 % of the nation can
    watch hundreds of games a year and you can actually see how good
    someone is. 
    
    Mike

    
    
    
      This has to do with Pesky holding the ball...  Now being only 32 I
    wasn't there so this is information that has been told to me by two
    people my Dad and my Father-in-Law whom never new each other but both
    who heard it/read about have told me the same thing.  Pesky did not
    hold the ball.  Dom Dimaggio (sp) went down hurt early in the game and
    was replaced by some guy whose name I can't remember anyway it was a
    hit and run and when the centerfielder fielded the ball he played it
    into the infield but not crisply, to make matters worse Pesky had his
    back to the play and didn't see Slaughter goin like a bat outta hell
    'round third.  This CF'er didn't let Pesky now Slaughter didn't stop,
    the play being in front of him should have.  So Pesky didn't know 
    until he turned back to the play, and that was all she wrote.  Game 
    over Sox loose Sox loose.  Not sure why Pesky was the goat guess cause
    he was the one left holdin the pea but that the way it goes.
    
    Jerry

    These things seem to happen all the time.  I'm listening to Satuday's
    game and what do Trupe and Castig start talking about but all the
    inside the park homeruns and how in their opinion it signifies the poor
    outfield play.  How emphasis on hitting leads to poor defenders allowed
    out there.  Gammons the next morning talks about how bad Oakland's
    outfield defense it.

    In year's past teams would keep a top defensive outfielder who might
    not be a good hitter, Rick Miller comes to mind but there were a lot,
    but today especially in the AL people are always looking for a bat. 
    They would then substitute late in the game if they were ahead. 
    About Cordero in the 9th. He is one of the top 3 Red Sox batters from
    the 7th inning on especially with men on base. I thought for sure he'd
    at least get a Fly ball out of it. 
    Also is it time to try Lacy as a closer? He pitched great until he ran
    out of gas in the 15th. Heathcliffe needs to get straightened out or
    traded.
    
    Mike

    
    	DD forced Jimy Williams into pitching Lacy way too long. DD won't
    release Shane Mack, and he won't send Mike Benjamin down to AAA.
    Benjamin is out of options and would have to clear waivers, which he
    won't. Since other teams were interested in trading for him. So the Sox
    have 2 players on the roster doing nothing. Leaving Jimy Williams with
    only 10 pitchers on the roster. You can get away with that in April,
    but not in June. The Sox have only 1 or 2 days off, from now until the
    all-star break. Do to early season rainouts. Get rid of Mack and
    Benjamin and bring up 2 pitchers.
    
    Ron

    Frye got up 2 or 3 times yesterday after pinch running.  Was Jefferson
    available?
    
    	Ted

The Enos Slaughter "Dash to Home" play was talked about often in 
my house because my parents went to the game that day at the old 
Sportman's Park in St. Louis.  Jerry has much of the basic story in 
his note.  Slaughter did score from first on a double to the gap.  My 
parents gave me their ticket stubs from the game and I once went to 
a baseball show where I had Slaughter autograph the stub.  I had 
the chance to ask Slaughter about the play.  He response was very 
interesting.  I'm sure Slaughter is asked about this all the time,
but before he'd answer, he wanted to know if I knew what day of the 
week that they played that game.  I answered "Tuesday" and he looked 
a little startled as he gave me his view on what had happened.
  
Earlier in the game, the third base coach held Slaughter at third 
when he thought he could have scored.  In the dugout with the score 
tied, the manager told Slaughter that if he thought he could score 
then he should go for it.  In the bottom of the eighth, he was 
was on first base and running with the pitch when a ball was hit to 
the gap.  He ran through the third base coach's hold sign to score 
with the throw not even being close.  Slaughter did say that most 
published photos of the play have the wrong picture since the throw 
came in up the third base line and NOT up the first base line as 
shown in many pictures.  My father had played semi-pro baseball 
for ten years.  He thought that the play to throw Slaughter out 
at the plate would have been a play that he could have made and 
one that Pesky should have made easily.  My dad had good seats 
to see the play behind the dugout on the third base side.  He thought 
that Pesky had trouble getting a good hold on the ball since he 
hesitated (maybe even twice) before he made a late, wide throw to 
home.  I have seen written statements by Slaughter that were the 
same as what he told me.  I have never heard Pesky's account of 
what happened and understand that he doesn't want to talk about 
it any more.  My mother remembers a friend of theirs who went with 
them to the game and had bet a lot of money on the Red Sox who said 
that he would never eat a baked bean again in his life.  For a 
generation, the Pesky play was "the play" until Fisk and Buckner 
added a couple of memorable plays during our lifetimes.

Jim

> He thought that the play to throw Slaughter out 
> at the plate would have been a play that he could have made and 
> one that Pesky should have made easily. 
    
    Absolutely.  But you don't even have to have been there to offer at 
    least some judgment of the play, because the film exists.  Pesky clearly
    holds the ball.  Now billte has offered the reasonable judgment that
    the Sox as a team were not communicating, but even then, to my mind,
    Pesky has to be thinking of coming up and firing, even if Slaughter
    had held.  That's the winning run in the bottom of the 8th inning of
    Game 7.
    
    My point in this last go-round was that even if Pesky wasn't totally
    at fault, and he probably wasn't, it was still a major blunder by the
    heroes of billte's era, which may have cost the Red Sox the World 
    Series (I've also made the point that Ted Williams' outfield misplay
    in the final series against the Yankees in 1949 might have cost them
    the pennant, but by this point he's got his hands tightly clasped 
    over his ears and it's "I can't hear youuuuu" ;-).  These kind of 
    fundamental mistakes simply didn't happen in the 1940s and 1950s
    in meaningless regular-season games, much less in the World Series,
    so I'm told.
    
    I have heard Pesky discuss the play in recent years as the wave of
    sentiment has turned in his favor, but that kind of talk is pure 
    revisionism.  The play was a mistake...
    
    glenn
    

  Of course Pesky holding the ball didn't prevent the Red Sox from scoring more
runs that game, nor did it prevent the pitchers and defense from keeping
Slaughter off 1st base in the 1st place, nor did it have anything to do with
the other 3 games they lost. 

  I agree with Glenn's main point that there have been bad plays throughout the
history of baseball but in general I've never understood why one guy should be
blamed for losing a World Series when it takes 4 games and a minimum of 27 outs
per game for a team to get eliminated.

  George 

    
    	OK, so it's Boston vs. Atlanta in game seven, and the two teams
    	have split the series thus far by winning three games each by a
    	score of 1-0.  There have been no errors committed in any of the
    	previous six games.
    
    	Bill Buckner lets a ball roll through his legs in the bottom of
    	the ninth, and the runner ends up on second base.  A single to
    	the gap and the run scores ... series over.
    

    
    >OK, so it's Boston vs. Atlanta in...
    
    Well obviously Boston wins the game, whether or not the Braves win 8^)
    
    Marc
    

    
    Jimy doesn't have 10 pitchers on the roster.  IMO he has just 9,
    because I wouldn't bring in Slocumb even to mop up in a blowout
    loss.  Wasdin pitched a scoreless 8th, giving up a hit and striking
    out one.  Why wasn't he allowed to pitch one more inning to pick up
    the save, if we are so low on pitchers?  Because of the "Larussa
    Rule"...you've got a "closer" so you have to use him in save
    situations.  Yeah, our "closer" has the following stat line:
    
    App W L ERA  IP    H  CG  ER BB SO  HR  Sv
    
    24  0 2 7.89 21.2 32   0  19 22 13   2   6
    
    That's 32 hits and 22 walks in 21.2 innings!  That's 54 baserunners!
    It's high time to give up on the idea of Heathcliff as a closer.
    Just another DD move that didn't work out.  Send him to Pawtucket
    and bring back Joe Hudson or anyone else.  If you can find another
    clueless GM, trade Slocumb away for good World Series tickets.
    
    Lou
    

    
    	How many blown saves does Slocumbe have this year?
    
    	The difference between Williams and LaRussa is that LaRussa had a
    	closer that could get people out.
    
    	Maybe we could trade Slocumbe to Oakland and buy him back in five
    	years or something.
    

RE      <<< Note 660.217 by BUSY::SLAB "Audiophiles do it 'til it hertz!" >>>

>    	OK, so it's Boston vs. Atlanta in game seven, 

  Or it would have been except that Cleveland beats the Red Sox in the last
American League playoff game and then goes on to beat the Braves in 6 in the
World Series. 

  At least that's what happened the year I was born and it's been down hill
ever since.

  George

    
    
    Don't know the exact number of blown saves, but I think the Sunday
    Globe lists them in their expanded player stats.  Anyway, yesterday
    marked the 13th game the Sox have lost after leading or being tied
    after six innings.
    
    Lou
    

    > except that Cleveland beats the Red Sox in the last American League 
    > playoff game
    
    No, there was one more after that albeit a division playoff game.  It
    was the first, too.  Several pennants since 48 decided on the last day
    or the second to last day (Milwaukee-Baltimore;Detroit-Toronto).
    
    Then again there's 1972 and Aparicio's fall rounding third.

    I too think it's time to deal Slocumb. And they can ship Eshelman with
    him. If he wasn't a lefty he'd be in AA. The thing that ticks me off is
    that in Pawtucket Hudson is pitching well. The Sox bullpen has improved
    quite a bit with the additions of Wasdin and Lacy to the pen. If
    Brandenburg is healthy then he'll help out. 
    
    Mike

    Slocumb will probably come around later, when the games don't matter,
    like last year.  Hold onto him and then deal him for a marginal 
    prospect, as opposed to the bag of (used) baseballs we'd get now.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
       I got home after the 6th inning on Sunday when Boston was up 4-2. I
    and my significant other were into every pitch. Well after Wasdin shut
    us down in the 8th I say to my wife I hope they bring in Slocumb in the
    9th, well she says isn't he there closer? I said yes but he Su%%s. Well
    after the Sox got out in the 8th nature called, while I was in there
    she yells to me Hon you got your wish HS is in the game. Well after he
    struck out Jeter to get out #1 she looked at me puzzled. I than told
    her to give him a minute. :-)
    
         She thought I was a Psycic!!!!

    Well, you and well, 600K Sox fans got that, well, right.

  This year's stats on Heathcliff Slocumb:

  BOS Red Sox Pitchers W  L   G GS CG GF SH SV   IP    H   ER HR  BB  SO
  Heathcliff Slocumb   0  2  24  0  0 18  0  6  21.2  32   19  2  23  14

  They say he's got good stuff but look at the walks. That's really terrible.
An average pitcher gives up about a hit/inning, and in a closer you like to
see at least 1 K/inning and hardly any walks.

  George

    
    	Yup, an average of about 2.5 baserunners/inning.
    

    
    	Sox are toast, 15 games out with no evidence of being able to climb
    out of the cellar. Talk is turning to Wild-card contenter but I fear
    this is just a way to keep sportscasters busy.
    
    ed

  The BoSox were toast before the season began.

  Look to the South. Pawtucket is 2nd in their division about tied for 2nd
in the International League. Trenton is also near the top.

  Look West, the Michigan Battle Cats have some young players with some pretty
good stats.

  George

    
>    Sox are toast, 15 games out with no evidence of being able to climb
>    out of the cellar. Talk is turning to Wild-card contenter but I fear
>    this is just a way to keep sportscasters busy.
    
    Basically, yeah.  The Sox may be "only" 7-1/2 behind the Yankees 
    for the wildcard but they'd have to pass 3 of 4 of the solid teams
    of New York, Texas, Seattle and California (and even Chicago if 
    they get their act together as expected).  It's a virtual 
    impossibility.
    
    glenn
    

  According to the Globe some pitching may be on the way. Bret Saberhagen
has started pitching simulated games. He's still feeling some twinges so
they are taking it slow but he's coming along.

  With luck, maybe he'll be the Red Sox's Curt Schilling.

  Without luck he'll be back on the DL.

  George

 What's a "simulated game"?

  The pitchers throws 15 pitches, then sits down for some time, then throws
15 pitches, then sits down, ...

  George

    
>    (and even Chicago if they get their act together as expected)
    
    I'm not sure that's a reasonable expectation...
    
    Joe

    
    	When Slocumb pitches a simulated game, he throws 47 pitches at a
    	time, doing a 180-degree turn and looking into the outfield after
    	every other pitch, and then hits the shower.
    

	He was horrible last night. Time to make Lacy the closer and let
Slocumb become the long reliever. 

    AAAAUUUGGHH!!!!
    That about says it all from last night. Suppan pitches a solid game.
    Leaves after6 complete. Then the arson squad does it's thing. 
    Hatteburg had a big double and is starting to look more and more like
    the Red sox catcher of the future. This one was tough.
    
    Mike

 The scene in the dugout after the game said quite a bit about last night's
 game, particularly the shot of Mo.

    
    The Globe states that last night was Slocumb's 4th blown save in
    10 opportunities.  But I think I've discovered the problem!  In
    yesterday's paper they had an article on Heathcliff baby, with an
    accompanying mugshot.  While looking at the picture I suddenly
    realized that it wasn't Heathcliff Slocumb after all!  It was
    Damon Wayans!
    
    Lou
    

    What is the definition of a Heathcliff Slocumb?
    
    	Answer:  A gasoline and fire mix which will explode at any given
    		 moment scattering round white objects in many directions.
    			(NOTE: Usually uncatchable)
    

    Well, as one Boston TV station sports reporter is calling it...
    The "Yawkey Trust" does it again. It appears that Bob Lobel
    now refers to the Flops as the "Yawkey Trust" rather than as the
    Red Sox. His replay of the nights events were colored with the
    sound effects of sirens and alarms as Heathcliff pitched his
    way into a jam while the game drifted from the jaws of victory
    to the jaws of defeat.
    Shades of Jeff Reardon....Heathcliff is well on his way to equaling
    the level of incompetence that Reardon showed in the end.
    Looks like another chapter can be written for things related to the
    Curse-of-the-Bambino..... Closers will not fair well in Beantown.
    Somehow I have the feeling that either a few pitchers are going
    to get moved, or a certain pitching coach is going to get the axe
    before the All-Star break.
    
     2
    b

    
    The Indians have never lost to the Red Sox in the playoffs covering 50
    years of total post season dominance.

    
    	I think Lobel is refering to the team owners as "Yawkey trust". He
    was talking about it on Sports Final Sunday. He said the team will
    never get better as long as the "Yawkey Trust" is running things. They
    are running it as a business and are making money, why change things.
    As an example, he said Baltimore, which is winning, is losing money.
    
    ed

    
    I only wish that Digital stock would go up like Heathcliff's ERA.
    
    Lou
    

re .238:

Why in the world would you want Slocum as a long reliever?  He can't get
through ONE inning say nothing of 3 or 4!

Burns

    
    The latest numbers on our "closer"...
    
    App W L ERA  IP   H   ER  BB  SO  HR  SV
    25  0 3 8.34 22.2 35  21  22  13   3   6  (4 blown saves)
    
    35 hits + 22 walks = 57 baserunners in 22.2 innings.
    
    Lou
    

    Bob Lobel is a lightweight ...... all fluff and no content ...... if
    it's the fashionable thing to do (like dissing the Sox), he'll jump
    right on ...... but don't look for any original thought ...... as far
    as the pitching coach being canned ..... don't count on it; he's
    highly-respected and has solid history ...... he's part of the overall
    game plan, especially with the number of young pitchers that will be
    here over the next 2-3 seasons ...... Heathcliff may be gone, and
    forgotten.
    
    

RE<<< Note 660.244 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "If it was the bat and wind, why didn't Jimbo go deep" >>>

>    The Indians have never lost to the Red Sox in the playoffs covering 50
>    years of total post season dominance.

  There hasn't been post season league play for 50 years. Before '69 there
were no divisions and the only post season play was the World Series. Those
tie breaking playoffs have always been and still are part of the regular
season.

  George

    RE-1
    All I know is neither team has won a World Series in my lifetime
    although I can remember 3 World Series appearences by the Red Sox and
    one by Cleveland.  

    I don't think much of Lobel's personna either. I just thought
    his recent use of "Yawkey Trust" & the humorous presentation
    last night after Slocumb's latest failing was funny.
    On the future of the Sox pitching coach, I'll reserve further
    judgement on his competence.
    BTW, what is his "solid history"? Anybody got a profile on him
    & his past accomplishments? I don't remember seeing a line on him
    back in the winter when he was signed up.
    
     2
    b

| <<< Note 660.247 by skylab.zko.dec.com::FISHER "Gravity: Not just a good idea.  It's the law!" >>>

| Why in the world would you want Slocum as a long reliever?  

	Far fewer chances that he will come into a game that matters. 

    Take the "c" out of closer and you have s description of Heathcliff
    SLocumb.
    
    Maj

    I think Canseco pitched better than Slobumb!!!!!!
                                                    
             
    D.C.

    What is the fuss?  Slocumb is still better than Ken Ryan!
    
    
    Ryan '97    9.0 IP  14 H  12 ER  4 HR  4 BB  3 SO  12.00 ERA

    
    	Well, anybody could look good if you set the standard low enough.
    

    re: .256
    
    The season isan't even half over.
    
    ;^)

Ever since we traded Sparky Lyle to the NYY, we can't get relief
(although Steamer had his moments).

Blown 7-run lead. I had myself believing that this year's team was
better than last. Ha.........the pain is worse than ever.  Tell me
again how great the talent is down on the farm!
    

  It's there, it's down on the farm.

  The PawSox and Thunder keep on winning.

  Believe,
  George

    
    	But all that means is that they can play against farm team players.
    
    
    	Belief is a good thing,faith a better thing, but a good team would
    be the best.
    
    ed

RE            <<< Note 660.261 by 18656::NEUMYER "Here's your sign" >>>

>    	But all that means is that they can play against farm team players.
    
  That's half right. Some will top out at the AA or AAA level and won't make
it in the big leagues. Others will.

  The thing that is encouraging is that many of the more talented players are
still very young and are progressing quickly through the system. That increases
the probability that they will make it in the bigs.

  I'm optimistic. I think that around the 2001-2003 time frame the Red Sox will
have a really good team, maybe a great team.

  George

    
    
    :-)

  "He who laughs last ..."

  George

    
    
    
    ...was Harry Frazee!

    
    	Re. 262
    
    Wow, now its not wait til next year, its wait til 2001.
    
    I continue to go to Red Sox games because its the cheapest major league
    sporting event in town. I enjoy the day in Boston, and the peripheral
    goings-on as much or more than the game itself. But I'm tired or
    hearing all this praise of new coaches, new managers, new systems when
    we've seen squat so far. I'd like to hear "I told you so" after
    something good actually happens.
    
    ed

  It has already happened. Just check and see what's going on in Pawtucket and
Trenton. Show me a time before this year when both the AAA and AA franchises
were at the top of their leagues. Maybe it happened but I don't remember seeing
it before. 

  Dan Duquette has said time and time again that he's building up from the
minors. He has a proven track record of being able to do that. He's just about
finished doing it again for the Red Sox. What more evidence do you need that
the program is working? 

  George

    
    
        A world Championship somewhere he has Built?????

    
    
    	Re. 268
    
    
    	Good answer!
    
    
    ed

  Bad answer. He left just as the guys were coming up so we never got to see if
one of his teams could win. In '94 the Expos were one of the top contenders and
could have won just as easily as anyone else. Then in '95 someone else took
over and held a garage sale splitting up the team. 

  If he gets to finish the project here it will be the 1st time he's had a
chance to see it through. As for right now, if you look at the organization it
looks really good. 

  In any case it's easy to see why no BoSox owner has done what it takes to win
before. Lou Gorman as much as admitted that Boston fans would never put up with
a rebuilding project like they had in Atlanta and Cleveland because they can't
stand the necessary down years. Fortunately Dan Duquette doesn't give a rip
about the noise and knows very well that if they start winning no one will
admit they were not behind his plan from the get go.

  George 

    
    
    We've already had all the down years.
    
    	You said he's done it before,but you admit that other factors made
    the dream fall short. We've had the talent before, we've had winning
    teams before. I will not be optimistic until I've seen some proof. 
    
    ed

    Folks face the facts that the Sox need to rebuild (reconstruct). They
    are finally paying the penalty for neglecting their farm system in the
    late 80's and early 90's. The last HS pitcher they developed that made
    it in the majors for them was Bruce Hurst. Prior to this year they went
    4 years without a significant rookie. The Lou Gorman trades of Bagwell,
    Anderson, Schilling, etc to try and win in the late 80's have hurt. 
    Or how about letting Ellis Burks go for nothing. You cann't rebuild a 
    team in 2 or 3 years. They don't have the talent to trade to get a 
    few top pitchers. The organization won't go after free agents that will 
    cost them a lot of money and draft picks.
    What I don't understand is why any fan want to say forget about the
    minors. This is what got them to where they are today. Look at the 1975
    team. Most of it was developed from the minors. The same with the 78
    and 86 teams. Hell look at all the top teams in the majors. They all
    have strong minor league systems that they either can bring up and play
    or trade away for Major league talent if they need. While the Yankees
    have signed some free agents, the heart of their team was developed in
    their farm system and they traded even more prospects for the David
    Cones, Cecil Fielder,Iruba and others. This is what developing a farm
    system can do for you. Look at the talent the Sox have now. The only
    veterans who probably could get traded for top value are Valentin,
    Vaughn, Cordero, Naehring and maybe, maybe Gordan. And you couldn't get
    a top pitcher for any of them except Mo. 
    
    Mike 
      

 I'm reminded of the 2 vultures perched on a tree limb and one says to the
other "Patience my A**..I'm going to kill something"

    
    
       Wheres the Proof George?

RE            <<< Note 660.271 by 18656::NEUMYER "Here's your sign" >>>

>    	You said he's done it before,but you admit that other factors made
>    the dream fall short. We've had the talent before, we've had winning
>    teams before. I will not be optimistic until I've seen some proof. 

  Take a look at the 1st Dan Duquette prospect to come through the system,
Nomar Garciaparra. What's wrong with him? Would we all have been better off
if he had traded that draft pick back in '94 for someone like Kirby Puckett?

  At least Duquette is taking a different approach than the owners have taken
in the past. Since the 30's Tom/Jean Yawkee have always concentrated on getting
a few big hitters to create enough excitement to fill the small park. That
strategy has been failing for 3/4th of a century. Once every 10-20 years some
guys around those sluggers have career years and they make a run but they fall
off quickly. 

  By building up the organization Duquette is finally doing what teams like
the Yankees and Dodgers have been doing all along, creating an organization
that can develop talent.

  If we had a Haywood Sullivan type who was trading away prospects for guys
who could get us into 2nd place for a run at the wild card then there would
be cause for concern. At least what Duquette is doing is a formula for building
a champion. Whether he does it or not, at least for the 1st time since Harry
Frazee the Sox have a chance of developing a winning team.

  George

    
    	We've had a ton of good players, it still didn't win the Sox a
    ring.
    
    	You hold out hope, I'll just enjoy the games I go to and jump on
    the bandwagon when(if) they win it all.
    
         ed

    
    
       Who was it that Brought in Heathcliff?
    
    
    Chap

    
    	Just as an example it took the Atlanta Braves 6 years for a drafted
    pitcher to make it to the major leagues and 9 years for a positional
    player to make it. In the last couple of years, how many teams wanted
    Terrel Wade from Atlanta? Yet, had to accept other players instead. 
    	How many rookie of the year awards, have Dodger players won in the
    90's (3 or 4 in a row)? I like the approach DD is taken.
    
    Ron

    
    	Ken Griffey Jr. is on track to hit 71 HR's this year.
    
    
    	And why is there a Red Sox game going on now?  Day/night DH?
    

RE   <<< Note 660.277 by 16134::CHAPALONIS_M "NEW YORK YANKEES WORLD CHAMPS" >>>

>       Who was it that Brought in Heathcliff?
    
  According to Stats Inc, last year Heathcliff Slocumb was was 15 for 16 and
put up a .94 ERA in his last 22 appearances. That's not really that bad. In any
case Dan Duquette has been bringing in a lot of exciting but cheap individual
players to keep the crowds as happy as possible while the real team is being
rebuilt. Canseco is another example. 

  If that's all that was going on or if he was breaking the bank for guys like
that there would be cause for concern but he is not. The trick is not to find
just a few guys, the trick is to set up a system that supplies a steady stream
of guys and that's what a good farm system gives you.

RE            <<< Note 660.276 by 18656::NEUMYER "Here's your sign" >>>

>    	We've had a ton of good players, it still didn't win the Sox a
>    ring.

  Sure, over the years, but not all together.
    
  Every team has good players and the Red Sox have gotten lucky individual
years in the past and their reserves have had career years allowing the
occasional run at the title. Then next year the good guys would still be good
but the reserves would fade and the Sox would be back down to 3rd or 4th. 

  If you look at the Dodgers, Yankees, Braves, and Indians you can see where a
good farm system gives you a number of good players at once allowing you to
fill in with free agents and have several shots at the title instead of just
one. That dramatically increases a teams chances of winning.

  Also, if you have a pool of young talent you can control them for several
years before reaching free agency. Then you only have to go out and buy the
guys to fill in the holes. If you trade your prospects and draft picks for
veterans then you need to pay an entire team of high priced veterans. No one
can afford that, not even the Idiot.

  George

    
    	Since .280, happened to mention Jose Canseco somewhere in his note.
    The Sox are 2nd in the A.L. in HR's and RBI's from the DH spot. People
    were worried about the Sox not scoring runs when Jose left. Well there
    scoring plenty of runs, just giving up tons more.
    
    Ron

    How many world series have the dodgers won since there rookie(s) of the
    year's ???????????????Rookie of the year doesn't win title's
    I don't see any title'sin the last 11 years
    here w/ the exception of jeter last year
    
    
                       Rookie of the Year Award History
    
                   Year
                           National League
                                                     American League
                   1996
                           T. Hollandsworth, LA
                                                     D. Jeter, NY
                   1995
                           H. Nomo, LA
                                                     M. Cordova, MIN
                   1994
                           R. Mondesi, LA
                                                     B. Hamelin, KC
                   1993
                           M. Piazza, LA
                                                     T. Salmon, CAL
                   1992
                           E. Karros, LA
                                                     P. Listach, MIL
                   1991
                           J. Bagwell, HOU
                                                     C. Knoblauch, MIN
                   1990
                           D. Justice, ATL
                                                     S. Alomar, CLE
                   1989
                           J. Walton, CHI
                                                     G. Olson, BAL
                   1988
                           C. Sabo, CIN
                                                     W. Weiss, OAK
                   1987
                           B. Santiago, SD
                                                     M. McGwire, OAK
                   1986
                           T. Worrell, SL
                                                     J. Canseco, OAK
                                     

    For all those who don't think the farm system is important could you
    please explain to me why the Sox are in the condition they are in if
    the farm system isn't important?
    
    Chappy,
    Where would the Yankees be w/o Jeter, Petite, Williams, Rivera, Cone,
    Hayes? 
    
    Mike

    
    
        The Farm System is very important Even though Cone and Hayes did
    not come from our farm system....
    
       But you have got to do it both ways Farm system as well as FA. And
    Right now the "perception" is people don't wanna play for the Duke.
    
    
    
    Chap

    
>    I don't see any title'sin the last 11 years
>    here w/ the exception of jeter last year
 
    Justice has a title with the '95 Braves, Knoblauch with the '91 Twins, 
    and Canseco, McGwire, and Weiss with the '89 A's.   
    
    Joe
    

RE   <<< Note 660.284 by 16134::CHAPALONIS_M "NEW YORK YANKEES WORLD CHAMPS" >>>

>       But you have got to do it both ways Farm system as well as FA. And
>    Right now the "perception" is people don't wanna play for the Duke.
    
  Except for a hand full of guys who have personal beefs, the reason they don't
want to play for Duquette is because they know that Duquette is rebuilding for
the future. For a player there is no advantage to playing on that sort of team.
You are not going to win and when they are ready your contract will be up.
Better to wait and play for them later.

  Once the foundation from the farm system is in place then it will be time
to hire free agents and try to win. At that point the players will come because
the money and the commitment will both be here.

  George

| <<< Note 660.271 by 18656::NEUMYER "Here's your sign" >>>

| You said he's done it before,but you admit that other factors made
| the dream fall short. 

	Yeah.... people were greedy for money, Montreal is a small market
franchise, so the players went elsewhere, or were traded so Montreal could get
something out of the deal.


Glen

    Chappy,
    The point I was making was that Cone and Hayes came in trades for minor
    leaguers which is another way a top farm team helps. And the part about
    DD is less and less true. Justice admitted he didn't ask or know about
    the no-trade clause to the Sox. It was his agent's doing.
    Mike

    
    The truth came out about Grissom's beef, too.  Montreal under Duquette
    beat him in an arbitration case.  Sorry, that's the system.  Poor
    poor Marquis...
    
    The fact that the agent Goldschmidt is now applying this clause to the 
    contracts of other clients just goes to show that it's purely a grudge
    thing.  It only stands to hurt Justice is he does get traded to a 
    team he truly doesn't want to play for. 
    
    glenn
     
                            

       
    . The truth came out about Grissom's beef, too.  Montreal underDuquette
    .    beat him in an arbitration case.  Sorry, that's the system.  Poor
    .    poor Marquis...
      
    And then made a deal for him prior to the strike (or during).  Or
    signed him?

    They would be were they are right now NOT IN FIRST. it was
    Fielder,wettland,boggs,strawberry,gooden,and cone. Who won the series last
    year the others did help, but the majority was by the FREE AGENTS....
    
    That's what it takes to WIN today in EVERY sport...It's not the coach's
    its the FREE AGENTS let the other teams groom these players then sign
    them when they can't afford them if you don't spend the money to sign 
    quality players you will be in the situation the every BOSTON team is
    in (maybe not the Pats)Last place. you don't go sign the canseco's and 
    jack clarks Tom Gordon ect...(like the red sox do) but go after the people
    who are still a bit young and talented not washed up 35 + year old players
    who were good 3 years before you signed them..........
    
     DD,RED,AND HARRY ARE ALL OLD FASHION GET WITH THE TIMES AND SPEND SOME
     MONEY OR AS IN THE MOVIE JERRY MCGUIRE SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!
    
    D.C.