Conference 7.286::canine

    I have been trying very hard for the last 6 months or so to train a
    very difficult dog.  I have made some good progress, but there are
    still some things that I just can't seem to make her understand.  I
    got her so she now walks very well on a leash.  On the house, I can get
    her to sit and stay and come to me on command with no problem. 
    However, if I take her off of the leash outdoors, she just runs off.
    Over the weekend I took her to a large somewhat secluded field.  After
    walking her around a bit and making her heel, I unclipped the leash and
    tried it.  As soon as she is unhooked, she no longer listens to a word
    I say.  I ended up trying to get her back for almost half an hour.  In
    that time she ran across thin ice, almost ran out to the street (which
    was a long distance away) and then found a rotting animal carcass in
    the woods and rolled all over it.  I finally caught her by hiding
    behind a big tree and tackleing her when she ran by.  Then I had to
    take her home all smelly and give her a bath.  How do you make a dog
    listen once you release physical control (the leash)?  With my last dog
    it was simple.  Once she learned to heel, she always heeled, leash or
    not, until I told her that she could run around.  Even then she would
    stay near by.  
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    How old is this dog, and how old was she when you got her?  Is she or
    does she have ancestors who were sight hounds?  (Greyhound, wolfhounds,
    afghans, salukis, seem to need clearly defined boundries in my
    experience.)  Maybe working with her in a large ballfield or other area
    where there is a fence, but more space than in a yard on come, sit,
    stop might help.  From what you wrote, the trick one of my friends and
    I used on our dogs when they started roaming further afield when we
    took them off lead wouldn't help.  We hid from the dogs behind trees,
    bushes, rocks, in ditches and whatever when they would get beyond fifty
    feet from us.  They hang pretty close to us now, and always come when
    called, even with non-maskable interrupts like a cotton tail flushing.  
    
    meg

    Meg, 
    
    Nikki is (as far as I know) 15 months old now, and was 8 months old
    when I adopted her.  She came from a shelter and there was no
    background info, so I'm not totally certain of anything.  She is
    definately part German Shepard, but I don't know what else.  She has
    the typical German Shepard markings and big ears, but has a slightly 
    smaller frame a curly tail.  I don't think there is any hound in the
    mix.  
    
    I just don't have convienient access to a fenced field.  The
    field that I tried using is somewhat secluded; water on 2 sides, a
    strip of woods on one side, and some big rocks on the other, and it is
    larger than a baseball field.   I should add that she WILL listen if I
    have some sort of food with me, but without that, it is like I'm not
    even there.  I miss my Pit Bull.  She was absolutely the best dog I
    ever met.  I feel like I'm now dealing with her evil opposite.
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    We refer to that as the Sainted dog syndrome  ;-)/2  
    
    St Iris (my chow) "never" got into the kind of trouble that Sonja, the
    broccoli brained samoyed has.  12 years erased the memory of the $80
    pair of sandals belonging to a roomate she ate, the night she got into
    the fishguts and had digestive upsets all over the house, the time she
    ignored me to harrass a forest ranger on a mule, having to move the
    mailbox off the porch because the mailman surprised her when her sight
    was failing.... But I sympathize.  
    
    I guess the only thing to do would be maybe to try her out with making
    friends with a dog who doesn't freak out when off lead.  I think having
    taken walks with Cougar from a very early age is one reason Sonja
    "listens" and is actually better behaved off-lead than on.  Either that
    or it is the doggie pack I put on her and load up with rocks when she
    and I are out alone.  ;-)
    
    meg

    If she listens when you have food, use that to train her.  Call her
    everytime she gets a short distance away, give her a treat, let her
    wander off again till she's the short distance away again, call her and
    give her a treat, let her wander away again, etc.  Establish a certain 
    distance boundary, she'll start waiting for your call to get her treat.  
    Make it a game.
    
    In your case you might have to start in the house first, if you can't do 
    it outside, just to get her coming. Right now she thinks every time you
    catch her it's bad and she must avoid it, she needs to know you will
    just pet her and she can go again.
    
    This is also a good way to establish boundaries in the yard.  
    After a bit you start giving them food only some of the times 
    they come.  In time, coming when you call and staying in the boundary
    becomes a habit, they'll forget why they do it, they just do.
    
    Sharon
    

    And sometimes you simply cannot ever give them their freedom except
    in fenced in areas.  A flexi-leash will give such a dog a little more
    play, but keep them under control. 

    Leslie

    Try using a very long lead, maybe even a rope or long flexi-lead.
    
    Let her get about fifty feet away -- far enough where she thinks she's
    free and then call and gently tug her back. Hopefully you can condition 
    her into thinking that she is always under your control.
    
    Last resort may have to be an electronic training collar.
    
    Good luck,        
    James
    

    Thanks for the suggestions everyone.  I especially like the 50' rope
    idea.  I think I'll go buy some rope and give it a try.  I'd be willing
    to try almost anything at this point :^)
    
    Dave

    I think part of the conditioning involves the unclipping of the leash.
    My cairn KNOWS when I unclip that leash that she is free, free, free
    and she needs to make a break for it.  You might want to condition the
    dog against that action by clipping and unclipping the leash in a
    controlled environment, including the house. Also try having a back-up
    leash - unclip one but keep control of the other so if he/she bolts
    when the first leash is unclipped you've still got him/her on a leash.
    Some dogs simply cannot be trusted off-lead. My cairn is one of them.
    My shelties, however, never need a leash - they always stay exactly
    where they are supposed to be, directly behind and to the side. No
    training was ever needed. It's so helpful to have two of the three dogs
    stay where they are supposed to be, so I can concentrate on "Houdini".
    Sarah

Bottom line is, if your dog is not reliable off leash, you should NEVER let her 
off leash unless she's in a completely enclosed area.  Every time you let her 
off lead you risk her life!

Dogs know when they are restrained and when they aren't and their behavior will 
change.  Even with a flexi or long line, you will not build a reliable recall.  
The only thing that will build a reliable recall is if she WANTS to come to you 
more than anything else in the world, including running around like an banshee 
or chasing that squirrel.

You need to work on motivational recalls.  Start inside.  Make it fun.  You need 
to be willing to act pretty foolish during this, and to be very patient.  This 
won't happen overnight, so be prepared to work on it for quite a while, and then 
continue to work on it for the rest of her life.  Being off lead is a dangerous 
situation and you need to make 1000% sure that she will come when you call 
BEFORE you let her off lead in an open area.

Use food initially, or toys.  With the dog on leash, call her.  If she doesn't 
come, pull her gently toward you, and when she comes treat her and give her lots 
of praise.  After a number of repetitions of this, instead of pulling, just give 
her a quick check and when she turns her head to come to you, run backwards 
making the silliest noises you can.  She'll most probably chase you and when she 
catches you, crouch down with lots of pats, praise and treats.  Basically you 
want to turn recall into a chase game so that it's more fun for her to chase you 
than to do anything else.

Leave her on lead until she reliably turns and chases you.  You do this so that 
you can issue a quick check if she ever forgets.  Increase the levels of 
distraction.  At first just call her, then call her away from a person who is 
sitting on the floor talking to her, then call her away from a person who is 
teasing her with treats, then call her away from a person who is feeding her. If 
you can find heavier distractions than that, use them!!  When she comes away 
from everything reliably, take her off lead and keep practicing.

Change your location if possible.  Get her used to comming to you from a variety 
of distractions in a variety of locations.  Above all, continue to make it fun 
and rewarding for her.

Once you are 100% sure;  Willing to bet $1,000,000.00 on EVERY recall, only then 
should you be willing to let her off lead in an unfenced area.  You may never 
get there, but if you don't, don't feel bad.  This is deadly serious stuff for 
her and you owe it to her to protect her, since she really can't protect 
herself.

Good luck,
Dave

    
    This is what worked for us.  We adopted a abused Dal, who was kept on a
    6ft leash for the 1st yr of his life.  He never got walked or taking in
    a car, he just lived on a 6ft leash. Like any living thing, he would
    want to get off the leash and run free - when he did, he got beatten
    all they way back home  - so he learned not to get caught and not to go
    home.  When we got him, he vowed never to put him on a leash.
    
    I worked w/ horses, so I got a large Lunge whip.  When in the house I
    would stand far away from him and I would *crack* the whip so he could
    hear the snap - then I would give him a command.
    
    He got so that when ever he heard the snap, he would stop and listen to
    my command.  
    
    I then took him outside and right when I got him outside, I cracked the
    whip good (not hitting him and not close to him) He stood up and he
    listend.  I would keep asking for commands from him (sit, stay etc) and
    if he did not listen I cracked the whip.
    
    I only had to do this a few times, and never left the yard and I can
    take him and my Female anywhere and they stay right by me.
    
    I live in a small neighborhood and they houses are very close and
    people allways walk their dogs and my two just sit on the edge of their
    yard looking at them walk by.  
    
    Every few months if I notice they are starting to try and take
    advantage of me, I just bring out the whip and lean it against the car
    so they can see it - and that is all it takes.
    
    People allways stop by and tell me what good dogs I have.
    
    Lou