Conference vmsnet::car$note:carbuffs

    I'm trying to find out the correct way to wire a GM alternator with a
    built in regulator.  This car originally had an external mechanical
    regulator; somewhere along the line, someone tossed the regulator and
    installed a later model alternator with a built in regulator.  There
    are 3 connections: One stud to connect the battery charging line, and a
    plug in 2 wire connector with a red and a white wire.  I am not sure
    what the red and white wires are for.  Whoever installed it just looped
    the red wire around and connected to the stud for the battery lead,
    then the white one dissapears into a hacked up wiring harness going to
    somewhere that I have not yet determined.  The thing works, but I don't 
    get it, that red wire just doesn't look right to me.  Why would they 
    put two connections on the alternator that both go to the same place?
    I am getting ready to make an entirely new wiring harness for the
    engine compartment, since every single wire has been cut up, and many
    are just twisted together and taped.  I did manage to obtain a
    schematic, but since the alternator is not original, the schematic is
    of no help for this part.  I was just going to go buy a single wire
    chromed alternator to simplify the matter, but my parts budget is
    getting strained, so I will have to make due with what I have.  So, can
    anyone explain the two wire connector to me?
    
    Dave

These are called "remote sensing" regulators.

Of the two pins, the one farthest away from the output stud is the remote 
sensing reference voltage pin.  In a factory installation, this would be 
connected to an insulated post on the firewall that serves as a junction 
between the battery cable (on the starter solenoid) and the alternator 
output.

You can accomplish nearly the same effect by simply jumpering this pin to 
the alternator output.  You will, however, be seeing a voltage that's a bit 
higher than what you would had you used the longer length of wire found in 
the factory setup.  BTW, this factory wire is fairly heavy (usually at 
least 12 ha) so that there are minimal losses.

The pin closer to the alternator output stud is your exciter signal 
connection and runs into the cabin where it's connected to the ignition 
switch.  Do NOT connect this wire to the same post as the distributor or 
you won't be able to shut the engine off once it's running as this wire 
will be "fed" by the alternator as soon as the field becomes excited.

FWIW, "one-wire" alternators eliminate this exciter wire, jumper the other 
terminal and cut in at low rpm.  This was done to minimize sparks in bilges
.  i.e. they're marine voltage regulators.

You wanna turn the thing into a 1-wire?  install the marine regulator.

any questions, phone me

    re .246
    
    the two (red/white) are they in a plastic female connector? 
    
    in most reg/built-in alternators...red-is the return charging line to the
    battery, the white is to your alt gauge/light depending in your
    instrument panel....
    
    -rich
    

    80+% of the newer GM alternators will run just fine with only the big
    terminal connected to the battery, forget the other two.
    
    I have one truck connected this way and onother connected with a light
    bulb in series with one of the terminals and the ign switch.
    
    The only disavantage with using it as a one wire system is that you
    need about 2000 RPMs to get it to 'kick' on aftger starting. Once it
    has done that, it runs like normal.
    
    I got this info from the alt rebuilder in town
    
    Steve

    Thanks -3.  The only thing I'm still a little confused about is that
    white wire that runs into the bulkhead connector on the firewall to
    somewhere under the dash.  Sounds like this is supposed to connect in
    series with the ALT light to the ignition switch, do I have this right?
    
    Skip's reply also reminded me of something that I failed to mention
    earlier.  The output line is a scrawny little thing, looks like maybe
    16 guage wire. I knew this wasn't right the second I looked at it.  I'm
    surprised that the thing never went up in smoke!  All of the engine
    compartment wiring is a total disaster, that is why I just decieded to
    throw the whole harness away and make a new one. 
    
    Dave

    
        Dave....get Skip's book.  Its priceless and has saved my butt a few
    times.
    
    -john

    what book???
    

    >> what book???
    
     How to do Wiring....by Skip Readio. Its sold through Classic
    Motorbooks catalogue. Or maybe you could contact Skip directly.
    My personal opinion is that Skip probably forgot more about automotive
    wiring systems than most people will ever learn.
    
    -john

    
    	That's not saying much for Skip's memory, that's for sure.
    

    
        Shawn...you hose-head, only you could screw up a compliment.
    
    -john

    
    	Oh, I see what you mean now.
    
    	Silly me!!
    

    I'll 2nd the book.  If only I could get some help from the folks on
    the cover I'd be in bizness doncha know.
    
    MadMike

    Hey Skip, I didn't realize that you were an author.  Where can I get a
    copy of your book?  It sounds like something that I could really use at
    this point (and MadMike has me curious about the cover!).
    
    BTW, I found a greasy 25 year old Chilton's manual in the debris in my
    garage that I forgot that I even had.  I opened to the unit section on
    starting and charging systems, and there it was; a complete diagram of
    how my alternator is supposed to be wired.  I couldn't make sense of
    how the idiot light works, but at least now I'm sure of what goes
    where.
    
    Dave

    Slabo! You sturing the pot agian?:)

    
        here's a piece of comedy to lighten your day.
    
    Back around last August when Skip's book came in the mail, My 16 year
    old daughter grabbed the book after I put it down and said Skip Readio?
    Hey...ain't he the ZZ-TOP guy? And I'm like no, He's a guy that I usta
    work with at the training center. And then she says...well I remember
    his picture and when I saw the cover I figured he was a member of the
    band.
        That put everyone in the room on the floor laughing!
    
    -john
    

1984 Cadillac: faulty charging system

Configuration:

	#2 terminal is connected to output post via 10g wire. (This
	   was the original configuration, he bought the car used
	   several years ago).
	#1 terminal is connected to brown wire attached to ignition.
	Output post connected to positive battery post.

	Ignition on - engine off, the alternator (charging system) light 
	is on. Battery surface charge at 13.5v
	Start the engine, the light goes out, and voltage rises to 14.5

Symptom:

	If a load is put on the alternator, such as turning on the
	headlights or heater fan to high, the voltage drops quickly
	to 13v then moving slowly to 12v (alternator appears to stop
	charging and car is running off the battery). 
	
	There are two behaviors that occur when the load is removed.
	Sometimes, the voltage slowly works its way up to 14.5v (alternator 
	working).
	Sometime the voltage stays low. In this case, pulling the alternator 
	harness results in increased engine speed (alternator was generating
	a load on the engine but not putting out current). Reconnecting the
	harness results in 14.5v (immediate) and reduced engine speed (due 
	to increased engine load) .

	When the voltage drops to 13 or less, the alternator light in the dash
	does not illuminate.

	Original and several rebuild alternators exhibit the same properties.
	The original battery, while not very old and testing good, was 
	replaced with a new one.

My involvement:

	I got a call from my brother who was having difficulty with this
	car. When I got there, I found my brother replaced the alternator
	clip and connectors due to the old one being frayed and broken.
	These clips were also making a poor connection, which I fixed.

	We had run a separate connection between the battery and the output
	post to eliminate the possibility of bad connections or broken
	cable to the battery.

	The story is consideralbly more invloved than this, but I'll spare
	the readers the details (my brother made a few mistakes along the
	way). He has swapped out several (4?) alternators all with the
	same symptoms.

	What is the cause and/or how do I diagnose/fix the problem?

	Doug.

	

>	If a load is put on the alternator, such as turning on the
>	headlights or heater fan to high, the voltage drops quickly
>	to 13v then moving slowly to 12v (alternator appears to stop
>	charging and car is running off the battery). 

Where are you measuring the voltage?  Across the battery or by reading the 
grossly inaccurate dashboard gauge?

>	There are two behaviors that occur when the load is removed.
>	Sometimes, the voltage slowly works its way up to 14.5v (alternator 
>	working).

Probably the indicator circuit or the firewall plug

>	Sometime the voltage stays low. In this case, pulling the alternator 
>	harness results in increased engine speed (alternator was generating
>	a load on the engine but not putting out current). Reconnecting the
>	harness results in 14.5v (immediate) and reduced engine speed (due 
>	to increased engine load) .

That says the alternator's working

>	When the voltage drops to 13 or less, the alternator light in the dash
>	does not illuminate.

The system's probably fine, the gauge has a high resistance in it's feed 
wire.

>	Original and several rebuild alternators exhibit the same properties.
>	The original battery, while not very old and testing good, was 
>	replaced with a new one.

Why were they replaced?  Because the gauge read low or the battery actually 
went dead?

>	I got a call from my brother who was having difficulty with this
>	car. When I got there, I found my brother replaced the alternator
>	clip and connectors due to the old one being frayed and broken.
>	These clips were also making a poor connection, which I fixed.
>
>	We had run a separate connection between the battery and the output
>	post to eliminate the possibility of bad connections or broken
>	cable to the battery.
>

Sounds like you've got the problem fixed, you just have to get a more 
accurate way of measuring the voltage.

What's the voltage across the battery when all this monkeybusiness is going 
on?

	

> Is there even a problem?
>Why were they replaced?  Because the gauge read low or the battery actually 
>went dead?

His wife got towed home with a dead battery. The charging system wasn't doing
its job.

>Where are you measuring the voltage?  Across the battery or by reading the 
>grossly inaccurate dashboard gauge?

The voltage is read at the battery terminals with a battery load testing unit.
(verified with a smaller automotive meter)

>Probably the indicator circuit or the firewall plug

???  I don't understand this ...

>That says the alternator's working

 Well, yes. but not until you disconnect and reconnect the harness does it
 come back. What we don't understand is why it stops providing amperage after
 a load is applied. To recap, the load is applied and voltage will hold
 for wnywhere between 5 and 40 seconds, then drop off (immediate) to 13v
 and slowly drop from there. I'm assuming at this point the car is running
 off the battery (as later test would show the same behaviour without the
 alternator connected).

>Sounds like you've got the problem fixed, you just have to get a more 
>accurate way of measuring the voltage.
>What's the voltage across the battery when all this monkeybusiness is going 
>on?

 I could only wish it were true :-(
 I've never seen this behavior before. I've seen alternators working hard
 but I've never seen them cut out under load. Since several have had
 the same behavior it is hard to believe the alternators would be
 at fault. 

 These are 100amp alts BTW.


 Doug.


> The system's probably fine, the gauge has a high resistance in it's feed 
> wire.

  There is no gauge. Just a 'charging system' idiot lamp.

>
>The voltage is read at the battery terminals with a battery load testing unit.
>(verified with a smaller automotive meter)
>
well, that eliminates the factory voltmeter

>>Probably the indicator circuit or the firewall plug
>
>???  I don't understand this ...
>

poor connection through the firewall.  dash gauges aren't accurate when the 
firewall plug is corroded.

>>That says the alternator's working
>
> Well, yes. but not until you disconnect and reconnect the harness does it
> come back. What we don't understand is why it stops providing amperage after
> a load is applied. To recap, the load is applied and voltage will hold
> for wnywhere between 5 and 40 seconds, then drop off (immediate) to 13v

Yes, but you said that the engine sped up when you removed the plug.  This 
indicates that the alternator was dumping current somewhere.  Whether you 
were measuring it elsewhere is another story but for the alternator to load 
the engine down to the point where you notice a difference in the idle 
speed, the thing's gotta be working overtime.

Perhaps the electric defrost isn't shutting off or the starter solenoid's 
shorted or the electric heated seat's not shutting off or.........


> and slowly drop from there. I'm assuming at this point the car is running
> off the battery (as later test would show the same behaviour without the
> alternator connected).

You're bleeding off the surface charge during that initial load test time 
then the battery drops slowly after that.  Whether the alternator's 
connected or not, you'll get pretty much the same indication on a battery 
that's been subjected to a recent charge. ...even with the engine shut off.

    could there be a 'lump' in the wire you remove and replace to
    cause the charge to come back?  I have seen a similar problem 
    where the 10 gague wire was corroded 'inside' the shield plastic
    about two feet from the connector...... this was a real difficult
    fix in an 82 rivera. Many many times to the shop for electrical
    problems.. 
    
    chet

    
    Well, this has certainly been a frustrating effort
    and a learning experience.
    
    It turns out we did everything correctly and the alternator 
    was working fine.
    
    The problem was belt slippage. As the load increased the
    belt slipped more and more. Reving the engine did not
    result in increased alternator speed. We did not notice
    this.
    
    Well Duh! you might say. But the alternator belt was
    brand new and had been tighten correctly upon installation.
    How can a new belt slip? It can't.
    
    The alternator belt was attached to the fan pully. The fan
    pully was driven by a belt that went around the crank and
    the air pump. This is the belt that was slipping. The greater
    the load on the alternator, the more the fan belt was slipping
    and not allowing the alternator to accelerate.  No matter
    the speed of the engine or the alternator load, the slipping 
    belt did not make a sound.
    
    And we know that even the slipping belt was grabbing fairly
    well since removing the alternator load would result in 
    significant increase in engine idle. We were operating at 
    the margins.
     
    Bottom line. The original alternator was probably fine
    and the car could have been fixed for $6 instead of $150
    had the correct diagnosis been made.
    
    At least the electrical harness is cleaned up :-)
    
    My brother can be found at a Lowell pub tonight 'celebrating'.
    
    Doug.

    If the belt is slipping, it'll glaze and turn shinney.  (sp?).
    Also, I'd think that if any oil, grease or other gunk is close to
    or in the pulley grooves, that'll lube up the belt enough to make
    it slip.
    
    Checking/cleaning the crankshaft pulley may be in order since this
    pulley is usually close to sources of crud. (the ground)  :^)
    
    MadMike

There wasn't any lube involved. Just an old belt that had loosened up
JUST enough to make the problem appear like something else ...

If it had only squealled, even a tiny bit  :-/

I'm glad it wasn't MY money :-)

Doug.

    My F150 is still having the problem of the battery draining overnight.
    I've been spending all my free time working on it (about 10 minutes 
    every other week).  I threw an ammeter on the truck this past weekend
    and pulled every single fuse under the dash, one at a time.  None of
    them changed the current draw by more than 1 milliamp.  I'm measuring
    about a constant 400 milliamp draw.

    My question:  What is a reasonable current draw for an 89 Ford vehicle
    when everything is off?  I expect the next step will be to check all of
    the fusible links and electrical connections down near the starter to
    see if I'm bleeding off the extra current with a highly resistive
    connection somewhere.  I've been keeping the battery charged by 
    disconnecting it if it will be sitting for more than 12 hours between
    uses.  This can't be good for the truck.

    Cheers,
    --Dave

                            
    Dave,
    
    I don't know if you have an electric fuel pump but...
    
    A friends T-bird had a problem with the fuel pump circuit/relay
    draining the battery in much the same way. If worse comes to worse,
    I have had good luck at Marlboro Auto Electric (Rt. 85). I've sent a few
    others there as well. No complaints...
    
    /Charlie  

    re: .269
    
    FWIW (maybe nothing, but that's what you're paying for my opinion
    anyway 8^):
    
    JC Whitney stocks a device that reportedly will automatically disconnect
    the positive line from the battery to the rest of the vehicle if it
    detects the battery growing weak while the vehicle is off. (Basically
    the same as you disconnecting the battery cable, but without you
    needing to remember to do it).  You supposedly press a button on the
    device to reinstate the power connection so that you can start the
    vehicle.
    
    Obviously, the REAL answer is to find and fix the drain (as you intend
    to do).  But, if the answer is not forthcoming, this may (or may not)
    prove to be a useful gizmo for you.  I think it cost around $30 or $40.
    
    -- Russ

    while on the subject of kludges, er, temporary fixes....
    Try jegs or summit for cheaper prices, there is a "master disconnect"
    switch,   "click", no drain on battery (no radio, clock, etc...).
    
    Or you can get this thing called "the battery buddy".  Sounds cute,
    but it keeps your battery fully charged while it's sitting in the 
    garage or driveway.
    
    MadMike

    Not a good idea on some of the newer cars to disconect the battery... 
    The engine and/or transmission computers lose all their stored info,
    and have to recalibrate when they get power back. This can take
    anywhere from a few miles to a week or two, depending on which car and
    systems it has....
    
    On an older car, go for it...
    
    Chris
    

    I am not shure what you have done to this pont but I would pull the 
    neg. battery wire off the battery and put a 12vdc test lite in series.
    If the lite lights than you have a current draw.
    Now you can pull fuses to see which component is bad.
    some devices such as radio memmory and ecm will have a current draw
    but this is a milliamp and is insignificant.
    
    I have seen that when a regulator in the altinator goes bad it will
    charge the battery when it is running but will discharge the battery at
    rest. good luck!!!!
    						Jack

    You also could have a leaky diode in the alternator. The alternator
    always takes a very small amount of current and will eventually run
    your batter down.
    
    Steve

    >Not a good idea on some of the newer cars to disconect the battery...

    Yes I know they lose all the stored stuff.  But they also lose it if
    the battery goes dead when I don't disconnect it.  Besides, I expect the
    truck is just not running/shifting optimally.  I was more worried with
    the stress on the computers/electronics of constantly disconnecting
    things which expect to draw continuously.  I'm not too worried about lost
    settings.

    >RE: FABSIX::J_KASPER
    Take a look at .269 to see the recent tests I ran.  Pulling fuses had no
    effect on current draw.

    >You also could have a leaky diode in the alternator.

    I was worred about the alternator a couple of months ago because I
    thought the chardging voltage was kind of high (14.5 - 15.3).  I took
    it to an alternator shop and had it bench tested.  It has the integral
    regulator.  Everything tested fine and they told me the charging voltage
    is within spec.  They did mention the brushes were starting to get low
    and wearing a slight groove, but that I still had some life left in it
    before I needed to replace it.  So that is probably ruled out.

    If my driveway dries a bit this weekend, perhaps I'll crawl under the
    truck and mess around with power connections near the starter.  I
    appreciate all the suggestions.

    Cheers,
    --Dave

    Found the problem discussed in -1 and other previous notes.  My battery
    had been going dead if the truck was not driven for 24+ hours.  It 
    turned out the fuel pump relay was stuck closed.  I couldn't hear the 
    fuel pump from the front of the truck.  But this weekend I had a friend
    standing on the side of it while I was messing with it.  He happened to
    hear the fuel pump cycling when I was connecting and disconnecting the
    battery.  Verified it with voltmeter.  $15 later and its all set.

    Cheers,
    --Dave

    
    re: turned out the fuel pump relay was stuck closed
    
    From .270 (6-Feb)
    
    > I don't know if you have an electric fuel pump but...
    
    > A friends T-bird had a problem with the fuel pump circuit/relay
    > draining the battery in much the same way.
    
    Dave, please listen closer next time or we'll have to start SHOUTING at
    you! :^). Glad to hear you're all set...
    
    /Charlie

    '82 Celebrity, 4 cyl, 2.5L
    
    SYMPTOM:	For a few weeks now, it has been acting like the battery is a
    		tad low on startup:  starter cranks kind of slowly, but it
    		always starts up.  Recently, it has been acting even worse:
    		crank is even slower, and lights in car visibly pulse with
    		the turning starter.  Acts like a battery holding a
    		marginally functional charge.
    
    		Also, OCCASIONALLY, "Volt" idiot light will come on when
    		car is initially started.  Accelerating the engine a tad
    		will cause the light to go out -- it will not come on again
    		while the engine is running.
    
    		Once car is running, there is nothing that indicates that
    		there might be a problem.
    
    CHECKED:	Cleaned battery cables at battery post end.
    		Analog voltmeter shows about 12V at battery when car is
    		off, about 14.5V when car is running.
    		Battery cell levels were topped off.
    		Alternator belt was tightened.
    		Battery itself is about 18 months old.
    
    TO DO:	Will check and clean cables at starter end.
    
    What else should I be looking for?  What other tests might be
    appropriate here?
    
    It looks like the battery has sufficient charge, which sounds like the
    battery and alternator should be okay, no?
    
    If it isn't crud on the starter end, what's next?  Test the starter?
    Check for bad wiring?
    
    Suggestions gratefully accepted.
    
    -- Russ

    
    	Take a voltage reading at the battery in the morning, after the
    	car has been sitting all night.  This is a better indicator of
    	what sort of shape the system is in.
    
    	If you check it when the car is running, you're basically meas-
    	uring the output of the alternator.  If it's any consolation, the
    	alternator is probably fine since 14.5 sounds good.
    
    	But your battery might be failing under load, for some reason.
    	Or a short somewhere in the electrical system [bare wire hitting
    	the chassis, for example] is dragging the battery down over night.
    

    I could be starter brushes, dirt/crud inside starter, I didn't see in
    your note anything about mileage on car or starter, or if the starter
    has been worked on or replaced.

    Just tested the voltage with the digital multitestor (car has been
    sitting all night; ignition off).
    
    Voltage across battery terminals:	12.72V
    Voltage across starter terminals:	12.72V
    
    Suggestions?
    
    -- Russ

    re: .281
    
    Starter condition and history is unknown.  I got this car about 18
    months ago.
    
    Any suggestions on how to test/what to look for?
    
    -- Russ

    o The battery cables themselves could be corroding inside, peel back
      some of the insolation from the battery end and look for green dust
      or flakes.  I had this once, I cut off about three inches of cable
      and redid the end and all was fine.
    
    o Battery could have a internal short, not enough to notice with
      volt meter but enough to not let it provide the amps needed to
      turn the started well.  I don't know the proper name for this
      condition.  Many autoparts store have a battery tester that
      will this for free, hoping to get your business if the battery
      is bad.
    
    Rob

     Try this,  cold start from overnight parking,  jump the battery with a
    known good one, start the car, if it cranks over well, it is probably
    not the starter.  If it still starts hard, it is probably not the
    battery.
    
     You may need to see what the starter draws in amps while cranking the 
    engine over.  If it is out of spec. then repair/replace the starter.
    
     Your local garage can do this test, a battery condition test, and a
    alternator test in a short period of time with one tool (meter) 
    

    
        A dead battery will read somewhere around 12V but WILL NOT rotate
    the engine. I have 2 such batteries in my garage. A voltage test is
    worthless. You need to check current draw as a more accurate test.
    You also need to do a current load test on the alternator. This will
    avoid the unnecessary swapping of parts.
    
    -john

    Just put the voltmeter on the battery *while* cranking; if it drops
    below 9V you need new battery

>>Just put the voltmeter on the battery *while* cranking; if it drops      
>>below 9V you need new battery
    
    That test is good and works perfect; However it assumes you have a
    charging system in perfect condition. The stated value of 12.7
    something after sitting overnight, really ain't so good. I would expect
    13.2-13.5 after sitting for a week! Heck, the battery in my boat has
    not been charged for more than a month and the digital battery
    condition meter still reads 13.6V
    
    -john

    I'm running out the door, but here's the scoop on what I've done:
    
    	o  Cleaned the starter electrical connections and the ground at
    	   the engine block.  Found that the positive starter electrical
    	   post was loose!  Tightened everything down.  No difference.
    
    	o  Tried jump starting with another car -- no noticeable
    	   difference, although I may try this again tomorrow morning with
    	   the 82 is cold again.
    
    	o  An analog voltmeter on the battery during a crank seemed to be 
    	   bouncing down as low as 9 or 9.5 volts, but no lower that I
    	   could see.  I may also try this again tomorrow.
    
    Gotta run.  Thanks for all the help so far!
    
    -- Russ

    I had the exact same symptom on a crappy old Dodge I owned several
    years ago.  It turned out that the rear main engine bearing was leaking
    and the flywheel flung lots of oil into the starter, which got
    all over the brushes.  I took the starter apart and degreased it, then
    reassembled  and reinstalled it.  The engine cranked over like new
    after that.  
    
    Dave

    I have a Delco alternator, 
    The front of the case has 2 bolt holes in it.  The rear of the case
    is attached to the thing with 4 screws.  In a nutshell, I want to
    rotate the front of the case 180 degrees, to swap the location of the
    bolt holes.  Is this OK?  Or is all the internal crap lined up
    a certain way that this'll ruin it?
    
    MadMike

    
    	A real man doesn't think twice about taking things apart.
    
    	8^)
    

    I think you can do that IF you can get the bolts out (steel bolts into
    alu housing with no anti-corrosion stuff)
    
    Steve

    re: my weak start issue
    
    Well, I pulled the good battery from my '88 Celebrity and put it into
    my '82 (after inserting a couple of charging posts in the side to make
    the connections compatible).  It does no better than the original
    battery.  In its own vehicle, it cranks like a charm, and the battery's
    specs are even better than the one I'm using in the '82.
    
    Unless someone else has a good working premise, I guess my next task
    will be to pull the starter and try to clean out its interior (per the
    earlier suggestion around .290 or so).  If that fails, Pep Boys has one
    for $50 with trade.  I'll think I'll call Trak Auto, too.  I seem to
    recall them saying that they'll test starters and alternators for free. 
    If their starter prices are competitive, that might be the way to go.
    
    -- Russ

re -.291

On GM altenators rotating the front of the housing is standard procedure. Just
be carefull, the comutator brushes are spring loaded in plastics sleeves. If you
pull the front of the case forward, the brushes fall off other the stator(?) and
when you pull the front back in, you snap the plastics sleeves.

So, if you pull the face forward and the pulley is on, the armature will follow
the face and the brushes will pop out. You then need to pull the brushes back in
before pushing the armature back in.

re -.294

I don't know where you are located but Dracut Altenator in Dracut (duh) MA does
a good job testing and rebuilding.

If the start is NOT that hard to get too, it would not be a bad preventitive
maintenace to clean it up anyway. If you do take it out, take the cap of the
solenoid, lossen the large copper lug that main power comes in on and rotate it
180 degrees so that the wear spot no longer touches the contact, and you have
fresh meat for the next 10 years of use.

roger

    To hold the brushes in, push them waaayy in and use a round toothpick
    inserted thru the holes in the back of the housing and over the contact
    area of the brush to hold it. Works quite well, though not as nice as
    the older GM starters where you pushed the brushes back until they went
    off the pusher arm that would them jam them in the out position. After
    it was assembled, you just reached in with a finger and flipped the
    pusher and let it assume its normal pushing position
    
    Steve

    re: .295
    
    I'm in Maryland, so I'm afraid I can't use the reference (but perhaps
    some other DIY'er might).
    
    But, yes, the clean-up attempt appears to be the next thing to do.  I
    hope to give it a look on Sunday.  Both Pep Boys and Trak Auto say
    they'll test the starter for free (which I may need to do if cleaning
    doesn't do the trick).  Pep Boys has a replacement for $50 while Trak
    has a rebuilt AC Delco for $79.  Considering the age of this car, the
    $50 deal looks appealing if a new starter is required.
    
    Thanks again!
    
    -- Russ

re the hard to start with strong battery problem:

even before you pull the starter, check the complete circuit, from
battery to starter and back to battery.
on some cars, the starter is grounded to the frame and there is a
separate frame to engine ground strap.  those connections can get corroded.

Related to .298:

My beater Ramcharger has (I have yet to fix it) problem where its hard to 
kick over.  Since it has a rather old looking battery I usually assume it
needs a jump.  

Turns out that a previous owner felt the need to splice into one of the 
leads into the starter relay and did to seal the splice location.  This is 
slowly turning a white/green color.  When the truck does not turn over, I 
wiggle the wire a little - and POOF it starts right up.   Some day I'll fix it.

bjm

    Well, on Sunday I pulled the starter out of the '82.  After scraping
    off enough gunk from the outside of the unit to verify that it was
    indeed a starter motor and not a giant lump of oil & grime, I proceeded
    to take the motor partially apart.
    
    I pulled off the frame and field assembly and removed the armature.
    I cleaned the exteriors with brake cleaner (didn't know what else to
    use, frankly) and carefully cleaned the inside surfaces (where
    accessible) with a cloth soaked in the same cleaner.
    
    This is the first time I've opened a starter, but the brushes looked
    like there was still a decent amount of material left on them.
    
    I cleaned it up, reassembled it, and bolted it back into the car.
    After tightening everything up, I turned over the engine and it the
    starter zoomed to life!  Praise God!  I had fully expected this to be
    an exercise in futility which would result in a trip to Pep Boys and
    the loss of $50 for another starter motor.
    
    Question: is any lubrication required in the starter?  I saw no signs
    grease or graphite anywhere.  The Clymer's manual had no information on
    lubrication.
    
    So, unless something gives out, it looks like I have a working starter
    once again!
    
    Thanks for all the assistance!
    
    -- Russ
    
    [FYI: I bought a Clymer's manual for this car at a used bookstore for
    $4.  I find that it provides a nice supplement for the Haynes manual I
    already had.  Each one has its benefits.  The Clymer's manual showed a
    NICE exploded diagram of the starter motor components.]

    I was right!  Glad to hear cleaning worked for you.  BTW, there should
    be a bit of lube in the bushings, but when oil gets all over the
    brushes and stuff it is a problem.
    
    Dave

    	Ok, here goes,
    	86 mitsu pickup.
    	The alt/battery let go,  I replaced the alt and battery.
    	The battery lite on the dash stays on, any idea's as to why?
    	There is a few other problems that i haven't figured out yet.
    	The directionals don't work, nut the hazards do. There was
    	a pigtail for a trailer on the truck, i removed it do to the
    	mikey mouse install of the splicer and cables.  Does anyone
    	have an idea as to where the flasher is located for the 
    	directionals is?
    
    
    dave
    thanks in advance

Hello,

I've read thru most of this note but I still have a couple of
questions.

My son's car (1981 Volvo 240) will not charge the battery.  The 
voltage across the battery terminals drops continuously while
the engine is running (faster when you rev it up).

I'd like to check the alternator directly to ensure that it's not a
wiring and/or fuse problem.  So, yesterday I found that the
alternator has three electrical connections coming out of it:

1. a short green wire connected to the engine block
2. a light guage white wire disappearing into a wiring harness
3. a heavy guage (8 or so) red wire disappearing into the same
    harness

I disconnected the two non-ground wires and started up the
car.  Using my multimeter I connected the positive lead to
the white wire post and the negative lead to ground and got
a reading of 14.4 volts.  The other post gave me 25 and
appeared to be still climbing when I broke the connection.

Is the correct way to test the alternator directly and if so are 
these the readings I should expect ?  I've been told that this
alternator has an internal voltage regulator (fwiw).

Thanks for any help,

Peter.

What is the normal output for a 6v generator?  I'm getting 6.8/6.9 volts
out of the generator on the '24 and I just want to make sure this is proper.
Should the output go up as the revs increase?  Should I see the same voltage
at the battery when the car is running?

Thanks
Dave

The output will increase as the engine revs.  That was the drawback with 
the generator that contributed to it's quick replacement by the alternator. 
 The alternator was capable of providing higher voltage at lower speeds.

Depending on the generator, you'll see anywhere from 5.5 or so volts all 
the way up to close to 9 volts out of a generator if you lock the regulator.

re: .303

Well, no responses ...

Is it because my questions make no sense, are in the wrong note, or have
already been answered elsewhere ?

I really did read every response in this string and didn't find what I
needed.  Is it here or elsewhere ?

Thanks,

Peter.

How old is the battery?

If you have a bad cell or two the voltage will drop, if it even gets 
that high to begin with.

    A friend of mine takes 6 volt (antique) generators and adjusts the volt
    reg with a lab supply so that it will output 12 volts. In this way, the
    original look of the engine etc is preserved. The possible danger is
    that if you don't halve the current, you are asking for up to twice the
    wattage
    
    Steve

I bet that makes the radio play really loud, eh?

Naa, it just speeds up all the songs and makes the DJs sound like they've
been inhaling helium....

Dave

re .307

Hi,

I'll assume you're replying to my .303.  Thanks.

The battery looks pretty old (it came with the car and we really have no 
idea).  Would a bad cell or two cause alow voltage reading across the 
battery terminals even when the car is running ?

On a trickle charger it comes right up to ~14.5 volts...

Any idea if my testing of the alternator is correct ?

Thanks again,

Peter.

I can't help any on the alternator connections ... sorry.

I just had a battery problem with my Sundance [Duster 3.0] ... the 
alternator would bring the system up to about 14 volts, but as soon 
as I shut the car off the system would "die" and the car wouldn't 
start.  I'd jump it, start it, shut it off, and the same thing would 
happen.  I even trickle-charged it for about 7 hours one day with the 
same result.

So I replaced the battery, and all is well.

The weird thing is that the battery died literally overnight.  I 
drove it on a Saturday night, parked it at 1AM Sunday, and it cranked 
over but wouldn't start at 5:30PM that same Sunday.  No warning of 
trouble when I drove it Saturday night, either ... just refused to 
start on Sunday.

When the car is running, a working alternator is basically pumping 
out the voltage that you see ... so that 14V is the output of the 
alternator as defined by the voltage regulator, and not the battery.
The battery is basically there to start the car after you turn it 
off.

As it gets old and outlives its usefulness, it loses the ability to 
hold a charge.

    
    I have sen a situation where a battery died after running over a 
    really rough road for a couple miles....many bumps and an old battery.
    The plates get crap on em as they wear, and the bumpy ride helped them
    shake loose the sediment and it shorted a cell out.....  
    
    chet
    

Interesting.

I didn't drive anywhere that night that I hadn't driven before.

    Just a comment - don't run the alternator open circuit.  This is 
    the single biggest mistake part-time mechanics make with newer 
    electrical systems.  If it wasn't bad when they started, it soon is.  
    I don't know the design of your particlar system (internal/external 
    control circuit, etc.), but it's just not good practice to remove 
    leads with the battery in place and/or run the vehicle with leads 
    disconnected.
    
    I would -
    
    1.  Charge the battery off the vehicle and then load test it.
    
    2.  Put it in place in the vehicle and measure the voltage across 
        the battery.  Should be about 13 v +/- .2 or .3.  
    
    3.  Start the vehicle.  Measure the voltage across the battery.  
    	Should be in the range of 14.2 v +/- .2 or .3.
    
    4.  Next steps depend on the location of the regulator. 
    
    Or remove the alternator and take it to a real auto parts place 
    which will have a tester and will usually test it for free.
    
       	Bill
    

    
    The battery is the capacitor in the system. Disconnecting the
    alternator from it while running is inviting trouble.
    
    Doug.

re: .315, others

Thanks for the help so far...
    
>    1.  Charge the battery off the vehicle and then load test it.

Local repair shop said battery was loading ok.
    
>    2.  Put it in place in the vehicle and measure the voltage across 
>        the battery.  Should be about 13 v +/- .2 or .3.  

That part is ok
    
>    3.  Start the vehicle.  Measure the voltage across the battery.  
>        Should be in the range of 14.2 v +/- .2 or .3.

Never gets that high.  The voltage immediately starts dropping while I
watch.  This is why the local repair place said the alternator has no
ou output.  But since I don't want to start replacing parts virtually at
random (ir, the alternator) I wanted to find out definitely if it was
the alternator or a crappy wire in between.
    
>    4.  Next steps depend on the location of the regulator. 

Keep on getting differing opinions here.  Any way for me to tell from the
wiring leaving the alternator ?
    
>    Or remove the alternator and take it to a real auto parts place 
>    which will have a tester and will usually test it for free.

Ok, I finally got the repair place to admit that this was the only (?)
way to check the alternator itself.  We'll do this today.
    
Thanks again,

Peter.    

    
    what about a leaky starter solenoid?
    
    keep on the list in case all else is proven good.
    
    chet