Conference vmsnet::car$note:carbuffs

    
    	The Plymouth Prowler is doing very badly in crash tests, so the
    	release might be pushed out until the fall so that they can work
    	on the structural integrity.
    

    
    
    ug!
    
    that was the feeling I got driving my 95 Neon Sport Coupe w/ the DOHC
    150hp 4cyl out to meet some friends Wednesday nite. I was cruising up 495 
    at about 90 and I thought I heard an odd clicking/vibration type noise
    coming from under the hood. I turned the cd player off and could here
    it especially when I was accelerating. I immediately pulled off the
    side of the road and popped the hood. I could not hear this problem at
    idle or even when I punched the throttle mechanism. I couldn't smell
    anything rubbing or burning and I checked the oil and it wasn't low or
    had a smell of burning??? so I hopped backed in and drove to my
    destination very tenderly. I could hear the noice espeically when the
    car was under load (higher rpms). I called Farina Chrysler first thing
    Thursday morning and they told me to come in. They took it for a ride
    then put it on the lift and came out with the diagnosis/estimate for
    repair! $1800 for new Pistons and bearings. Its seems as though one or
    more of the wrist pins are making noise. Now the mechanic said that
    this noise is something that could stay at exactly the same sound level
    forever for years or could get louder and eventually break and throw the 
    piston thru the block. I was just so shocked to hear this.
    
    	I'm very very very hard on the car. Its 20mnths old and has 48,000
    miles on it mostly highway and I drive very fast for long periods of time 
    and it does stay up in the 4-5k rpm range for extended periods of time. 
    But I paid extra attention to this car I put Mobil-1 in it every 4k and 
    threw a new filter in it every time?
    
    	Of course they haven't run into this problem yet , mainly because
    they don't have any Neon's with 50k on them yet. After blowing 2
    engines in my 84 + 86 Laser's (ok stop laughing at me!) I vowed to never 
    to buy another Chylser and like a smuck 10yrs later I did... 
    and it looks like a big mistake....
    
    doesn't it sound weird for a wrist pin to go before say a bearing or
    tappit? I'm just so pissed! I was planning on trading it in in June for
    a new 97 Grand Prix Wide Track with the 195hp 6cyl 3.8 but now I'm not sure
    what my options are...???
    
    any thoughts?
    
    Bill
                                                           

Well Bill, it seems that you are particularly hard on cars and you're most
likely getting the proper response from the Neon. Drive it hard, watch it die. I
would strongly question the $1800 smackers they want for the repair. See another
mechanic.

Jim

I would tend to beleive that this type of repair would be covered by warranty.
do you have the 7-70??

    
    Re -2
    
    Well its was $790 parts and $900 labor , there is no reason for them to
    replace one piston might as well do all??  and since this is a new car there
    are no rebuilt engines right now. I guess I could shop around for a used 
    engine from a wreck...but I'd suspect $500-900 for the engine and $500 for 
    my friend to swap it out?
    
    re-1
    
    nope, Chrysler now has a 3-36 bumper-bumper and 5/50 on rust and 7/70
    on anything Emmissions related
    
    Bill

    Bill,
    
    You must be doing something WRONG... I have been driving for longer
    than I like to remember and I have never NEVER had an engine go out.
    
    I have not babied the cars, My Lotus got Quaker State 40, and sometimes
    50 weight racing oil, and I ran it really hard.  My German Ford Station
    Wagon ran with the pedal on the metal on the autobahns all of the time.
    
    Maybe the MOBIL-1 Breaks down under heat loading like in a turbo and at
    high speeds.
    
    V-8, Straight sixes, fours, and fours with turbos, all going strong.
    
    Dave

    
    A loose wrist prin would not suddenly show up. It would start making
    slight noise and get worse with time. Same with a loose piston. A
    bearing would do the same thing. Since they said it was all of those
    things (very unlikely) it sounds as though they're diag'ing a complete
    motor rebuild hoping to get lucky and hit upon the source.
    My (notes diagnostics) would be none of their choices. Even though you
    are hard on the engine, the bottom end of most current cars are pretty 
    solid. You mentioned no noise at idle speed, what about when reving in
    nutral. If you had a failed piston/bearing/wrist pin, you should hear
    it when reving in nutral. My guess is its something unrelated the the
    engines lower end. 
    Its probably something vibration frequency related. 
    
    steve

    If you have a friend who can swap it out ($500 may be generous for
    this, but I don't know that car), I'd bet you could get an engine
    rebuilder to rebuild it for less than $1000 (probably far less, given
    that it cost me $1200 for a complete rebuild of a 3L v6 including
    pistons/rings/rods/bearings/oil pump/complete head rebuild)
    
    $790 for parts sounds WAAAY high..
    
    If you're gonna open up the engine, you really ought to take a close
    look at everything in there. 
    
    Even though you've beaten the crap out of that engine, I'd much rather
    have a good rebuilder do a rebuild on an engine that I know than take
    my chances with a boneyard engine. Finding a good rebuilder may be a
    problem, but they do exist. You can be fairly certain they don't work
    for a dealership (though the dealer may send it out to a decent
    rebuilder)
    
    ...tom

    as a postscrip to my note, you might want to have an engine specialist
    listen to it before you do anything. It could be a simple problem, but
    as another noter said, they may just be shotgunning it. (or, they may
    be clueless..)
    
    ...tom

    
    FWIW - My father had a small block chevy 8 cyl that fairly
    suddenly developed a nasty tapping sound under load only.
    Idle through 1/3 throttle was fine - but 1/2-full throttle
    made the noise surface.  Turned out he had a valve train
    problem.  I think a valve guide or two got real sloppy
    and was causing poor valve seating under load.  A little
    head work and he was good as new.  Funny thing was the engine
    had only 50-60K on it and was well cared for.
    
    He has a GOOD independent mechanic.  The dealer was less than
    helpful - and it wasn't covered under warranty.  Car's been
    fine for 10K miles or so.....
    
       Jim D.  (A mopar fan - over 300K miles on various mopar 
                4 cyls and no engine related problems yet.....)
    

    Do not go the rebuild route-Go with a factory short block.
    
    For a rebuild $1800 would be about right for a garage. A do it
    yourselfer can do a cheap job ~500-600, a good job for around $1000..
    Most garages will not rebuild, they will buy a mopar/ford/gm short block
    then swap everything else from the old engine. And if there honest, they
    will do a valve job on the old heads. This way they get a warrenty'd
    engine and no hassels.
    
    I'd get another opinion, I hav'nt seen a wrist pin go on a street
    engine? (well almost never)..
    
    JJ
     

    My old Mazda MPV had both a low end and top end problem over its
    life (different times).  The low end problem (piston slap due to
    slop in the pin area) had the sound noticible at idle, and it
    increased when revving out of gear.  The top end problem (inadequate
    lubrication to the valves) didn't show itself until under load -
    idle and revving in neutral and it was nice and quiet.  If your
    description is correct, then their diagnosis sounds 180 degrees
    off of reality.  Low-end problems are really noisy, especially if
    you stand under the car (while on a lift) while idling.
    
    andy
    

My poor Mopar got a bit over 190,000 before it threw a piston rod on Route 2 a
few weeks ago. Da poor ting...

BTW it was a 84 Caraven, 2.2 liter, 4 cyl

Jim

    
    	I just got my Duster back from the shop ... thermostat and cooling
    	fan fuse needed replacing.
    
    	Coincidence?  Or did the failure of one cause the failure of the
    	other?
    

      thanks for the notes    
    
    Well I'm pretty sure this thing just crepted up on me.... Because I'm
    very clear about how my engine sounds at idle or at 5000rpm @ 105mph
    and this little vibration/clicking is MOST evident in certain ranges of
    the powerband like when I'm driving and throttle up at the beggining of
    an new gear and I'm at 3500-4000k rpm...now at Idle no noise but when
    you rev it you can hear it when it starts to fall back down rpms a little.
    its most evident under load not when just reving so I don't thinks a
    vibration?
    
    as for what the dealer said is that it WAS atleast 1 wrist pin
    slapping/vibrating whatever ...and it may never get any worse.
    and you don't just change wrist pins you change the piston and bearing
    and you don't waste time changing one you change all four of them ...
    and this is a 4vavle per cyl DOHC engine? and as for the amount of abuse 
    its taken....all I can say is that most of the time I've got this car 
    running at 4000rpm or above......irrelavant of what gear I'm in....
    and I'm also a heavy down shifter..??? I just thought keeping fresh 
    synthetic oil in it and changing filters often would keep me safe until 
    50k even if I drive it hard.... well I missed it by a month or so!
    
    
    I'm just surprised that a wrsit pin would wear/breakdown before
    anything else?? my other mopar problems were bottom end bearings...
    because I ran a 1/2 -1qwt low on oil....those old 2.2 needed to be
    filled at all times...
    
    
    Bill
    
    btw: a new engine from mopar is $3300-$3500 installed

    Your oil change frequency is not the issue.  You should be able to
    drive like that for 5K or even 7.5k miles or more as long as you don't
    let it get low.  Those little engines are designed to rev high.  VW 
    engines for example are small displacement and are meant to drive at 
    autobahn speeds day in and day out.  I flogged my Jetta from day one
    for 10 years or so and replaced spun a bearing because I let the oil
    get low.  You may be more inclined to let your car run a little more 
    than most folks but that's about it.  If you were letting idle for 
    extended periods, going very shorts distances frequently, or lugging it 
    all the time, then maybe that would be abusive.  I'd be more inclined to 
    say it is the engine not being up to snuff or some other reason as 
    stated earlier.  Get a second opinion.  You car probably won't blow 
    up on your way home from work tonight so I wouldn't rush it.  
    
    Brian

    
    
    I Agree, the speedo says 125 and these cars are developed for europe
    as well and I'm sure its not odd to dirve like this in europe?
    
    I'm concerned that this is something deffective or like you said not
    upto snuff.
    
    as for the oil being low I have it checekd every other fill-up and I've
    never had to add more than 1/2 quart between oil changes.?
    
    I'll probably schedule someone else to listen to it next week.
    
    Bill

    re: Note 86.584 by ROCCER::WSWANEY
    
    Let's back up here a moment.
    
    Your engine is making a noise.  You beat on the car.  You're now
    discussing engines and money.  Meanwhile your car makes a noise and
    you beat on your car.
    
    Does your car run now?  It just makes a noise?  Sometimes?
    
    I've blown the snot out of a few engines and I ain't known to be a
    pussy foot either.
    
    What I would do right now:  ASSUMING THE CAR RUNS ok.
    Get a cylinder leak down test.  This will prove/disprove any internal
    engine problem.  Take the valve cover off and inspect the valve train
    for broken springs or pushrods/studs, or loose play or slop in the
    valvetrain.
    
    IF you have a busted wrist pin... IF... you will know it sooner or
    later.  Maybe later, much later.. pocket your money but be prepared
    for the engine to let go sometime.  If it lets go and ventilates the
    block, BFD you're pricing engines now anyway... at that time, buy
    another.    Like the mechanic said, it may never let go, so save your
    money.  If you drive the way you do, you still, on this engine, expect
    it to go kaput sooner or later.  Maybe sooner.
    
    This is the cost of speeding around town.
    
    MadMike
    

    
     
    -Your engine is making a noise.  You beat on the car.  You're now
    -discussing engines and money.  Meanwhile your car makes a noise and
    -you beat on your car.
    
    -Does your car run now?  It just makes a noise?  Sometimes?
    
    Yes the car runs now, and I really can't see any loss of power and
    I think the noise may be exactly as when I first heard it.
    
    
    
    -What I would do right now:  ASSUMING THE CAR RUNS ok.
    -Get a cylinder leak down test.  This will prove/disprove any internal
    -engine problem.  
    
    so a worn wrist pin will actually lose enough compression/performance
    to show up ?
    
   - Take the valve cover off and inspect the valve train
   - for broken springs or pushrods/studs, or loose play or slop in the
   - valvetrain.
    
    will do this weekend
    
    -IF you have a busted wrist pin... IF... you will know it sooner or
    -later.  Maybe later, much later.. pocket your money but be prepared
    -for the engine to let go sometime.  If it lets go and ventilates the
    -block, BFD you're pricing engines now anyway... at that time, buy
    -another.    Like the mechanic said, it may never let go, so save your
    -money.  If you drive the way you do, you still, on this engine, expect
    -it to go kaput sooner or later.  Maybe sooner.
    
    My feelings exactly , one question though... you mention BUSTED wrist
    pin. Couldn't it be just worn/sloppy right now and not actually broke?
    or is there no in between with a wrist pin?
    
    -This is the cost of speeding around town.
    
    I know but I thought PMing it often would keep my good for atleast 50k?
    
  thanks
    
    Bill
    

    Yep, I sidelined my 2.5 L turbo dodge spirit.  Wife drove it home, and
    I said, "When did it start KNOCKING?" she said, I do not know I was
    listening to the radio.  
    
    Well, one day about 2-3 months later, I get this wild idea, and remove
    the valve cover, and there it was, a cam hold down bolt was loose, I
    torqued that son down and it has been running fine for 30k plus miles.
    
    Have you ever overreved when down shifting?  That is one of the big 
    problems when you put a manual and a agressive driver together.  It
    should not be a problem, but I have overreved by accident, got lucky
    and did not have a problem, but I do not make a habit of overrevving.
    
    
    Dave

re: Note 86.601 by ROCCER::WSWANEY
    
}    Yes the car runs now, and I really can't see any loss of power and
}    I think the noise may be exactly as when I first heard it.
 
This is slightly scarey.  A broken valve train component will kill a cylinder
and you loose power.
   
{        
    -What I would do right now:  ASSUMING THE CAR RUNS ok.
    -Get a cylinder leak down test.  This will prove/disprove any internal
    -engine problem.      
    so a worn wrist pin will actually lose enough compression/performance
    to show up ?
}
Possibly.
The wrist pin will cause the piston to become cocked in the cylinder, causing
your ring seal to go down the tubes.  If a cylinder leakdown test identifies
a poor cylinder, you may have problems.    
A wrist pin should cause a "knock" noise.  Whereas a bearing usually makes
a metallic "ping".  A rattle like castonettes is valvetrain, usually.
(lifter or something).
You could have collapsed a lifter, at higher RPM it floats and rattles...

I sold an engine to someone who broke a wrist pin, it was mentioned in
::musclecars under the Big Block chevy note.  He identified some noise,
then did some prelim diagnosis before tearing down his engine.  Obviously,
he thought it was serious enough that he wouldn't drive (run) his boat.
If you're still tooling around town in this car, it may not be very serious.

A leakdown test will give you a good indication of what's up inside your
engine.  It's nice to know, especially if you beat the hell out of this
thing.

{
   - Take the valve cover off and inspect the valve train
   - for broken springs or pushrods/studs, or loose play or slop in the
   - valvetrain.
    
    will do this weekend
} 
   
Your driving habits point to early valve train failure.  Winding the hell
out of the engine is TOUGH on valve trains.
I've broken all sorts of valve train parts.  Pushrods, studs, springs...

{
    -IF you have a busted wrist pin... IF... you will know it sooner or
    -later.  Maybe later, much later.. pocket your money but be prepared
    -for the engine to let go sometime.  If it lets go and ventilates the
    -block, BFD you're pricing engines now anyway... at that time, buy
    -another.    Like the mechanic said, it may never let go, so save your
    -money.  If you drive the way you do, you still, on this engine, expect
    -it to go kaput sooner or later.  Maybe sooner.
    
    My feelings exactly , one question though... you mention BUSTED wrist
    pin. Couldn't it be just worn/sloppy right now and not actually broke?
    or is there no in between with a wrist pin?
} 
   
Busted/worn/sloppy, same thing.  If it was REALLY broken, the piston would be
on the ground now or would have smashed the **** out of your valves.  You'd
know it.  It could be "worn/sloppy" which to me is "busted", but you'd
probably know it.  It'll knock at idle.  Eventually it'll break and the
diagnostic process becomes simple.  Scoop up what's left and call the
hook.


    -This is the cost of speeding around town.    
    I know but I thought PMing it often would keep my good for atleast 50k?

You PM a fuel engine every 1/4 mile.  Sometimes it don't last that long.
You PM a stock car engine every 500 miles.  Sometimes it don't last that long.
You drive around like mario andretti this stuff can happen, at 10 miles
or 150,000 miles.  You just hope that the PM'ing you do gives your engine
a better chance to live a while.

Something I might do, is if you want to run your engine this way, get a 
mopar performance catalog and see if they make a stud girdle for your engine.
Driving like you do, this may come in handy, especially if you've busted 
something in the valvetrain already.  The girdle strengthens the valvetrain
and prevents stuff from bending/flexing and braking (as easily).

Stock engines are made for stock people, the design might lend itself towards
good high rpm applications, but BEFORE ANYONE does this, they'll strip and
blueprint the engine for that use.  Just taking an engine and beating the
hell out of it is a bad deal.  Have you done anything to the oiling system?
Do you have an oil pressure gauge?  Do you know if you're sucking up all the
oil out of the pan before it drains back?  Do you have an oil cooler?  These
are high rpm things.  Your stock engine isn't cleaned up to help the oil
drain back into the case, and it may not have a windage tray, and at high
rpm your oil may foam up and you screw up all sorts of things.  This stuff
happens.  If you have a turbo (you do?) this is even tougher on the oil.

"Racing oil" has anti-foaming agents in it so it doesn't bubble up.  My lt-1
would hit 8500 rpm.  I had EVERYTHING in it to assist with short bursts of
high rpm, except deep groove pulleys.  One day I stepped on it, tossed a
belt and blew the living sheet out of it.  $4500.  I got 7000 miles out of that
one.  Stuff happens.  I pm'ed the thing constantly.  You pays your money
and you takes your chances.  This engine was came with a guarantee.  Guaranteed
to Start.  Drive out of the shop and I owned it.


MadMike 
   

If you are going to beat on the engine, I would suggest buying a car and engine
that can take it.  Like -.1 says, stock engines are made for stock driving. 
However, there are a few stock engines out there that will take a lot of
pounding for a long time.  Mercedes, Saab, Volvo, Ford 5 liter, and VW can do a
good job at running hard and lasting. (keep in mind I'm a foreign car guy). 

As for your current engine, how handy are you with repairs?  You can probably
just drop the oil pan with the engine in the car and replace the pistons
and rods.  Dealerships do that all the time.

Jim

    Reading what other said, and what you (bill) said...
    
    My guess is you collapsed a lifter.  The dealer wants $3500 from
    you to fix the lifter.  Blame it on some internal spooky sounding
    thing.  (wrist pin).  plus bearings, rings, gaskets, cha-CHING....
                                                                      
    Also, like others said, if it was bottom end, you'd hear it,
    constantly.  Start the car and you'd hear it.  You don't.  You only
    hear it sometimes, upper RPM and under load... you've got valve train
    problems.
    
    re: the $500 labor.  Sit down and take a pill...
    if this deal is FWD be prepared for some serious labor unless you do it
    yourself.  You CAN take the engine out without removing the whole
    drive train, but it's a PITA.  
    
    Like I said, get the mopar performance catalog and ask some questions.
    If you're going to drive like this,  buy some insurance (oiling/valve
    train, clutch).  Oh ya, you're clutch ain't come apart yet, right?  And
    that sucker is pointed right at your crotch, eh?  Hopefully mopar has
    a good bellhousing to contain a wayward clutch explosion.  That'll ruin
    your day too.  Just some stuff to think about.
    
    MadMike
                                                                 

    
    
    well for performance, I've kinda been babying it, shifting early, keeping
    the rev's down, very limited down shifting , but I still put like 300
    miles on it this weekend and there were points were I was going easly
    85-100mph @ somewhere around 3750-4500rpm for atleast 30minutes....
    with no noticable differences..in sound or performance...
    
    i'm excited to hear that it may be something else like  something loose
    on the top end....
    
    this noise is something I just want to get rid of so I can trade it in
    or sell it. Its tough to sell a 20month yr old car with a strange
    engine noise....
    
    for sh*ts & giggles I added a $6 can of that engine restore and it did
    absolutely nothing..in regards to the noise...
    
    
    I really think you may be on to something with the top end because like I 
    said it doesn't make the noise all the time just in certain rpm bands
    ..and when it does I can make it go away by either letting off the
    gas a little or throttling a little more (or turning the CD player up!)
    
    so maybe this vibration thing might be happening...maybe I shook
    something loose, because it has a 6000-7000 red-line and it doesn't
    cut out electronically until 6500k and I've hit that point a few times
    moistly downshifting for a corner.
    
    i'm just surprised because this is the stock 150hp DOHC thast in the 
    ACR Neons that kick butt in the SCCA road courses and Solo events.
    
    and no oil guage, other than an idiot light( i hope) that never went
    on.. and it doesn't burn more than 1/2 qt per 4k....no aftermarket 
    parts at all except hi-po brake pads i needed to get... 
    there is a temp guage and even on long trips at high speeds with AC it 
    never goes up over normal driving?
    
    thanks for all the ideas.
    
    Bill 
    

I just thought of another idea.  Could you have a pebble lodged between 
the exhaust pipe or cat and a heat shield?  I had this on Hondas, Renaults,
and now Volvos and it only makes a strange noise at certain RPM bands.  A
casual rocking of the exhaust with your hand will not find it.  You have to
remove the pipe or cat and shake it to hear the pebble rattling.

Jim