Conference vmsnet::car$note:carbuffs

    I'm surprised there isn't much in here about the new Pontiac Grand
    Prix, especially the GTP version. We're in the market for a new vehicle
    and have a 4 month old daughter, so a 4-door seems inevitable. Then I
    saw a '97 Grand Prix. Shazaam!!!! What a car! Then I stop by the
    dealership and they tell me that not only is it available with the 3.8
    liter V6 (which I drove and was pretty impressed with) but that it is
    also available with the SUPERCHARGED 3.8 liter V6 from the Bonneville
    SSEi. 240 HP and 280 Ft/Lbs of torque. Yowzah!!!!!
    
    I gotta have one. Unlike Slab, I actually think it looks better in the
    4-door version. It just seems to appear more balanced. The only
    complaint is the lack of colors. They make 'em in PURPLE but not in any
    shade of blue! The red one looks AWESOME but I'm concerned that it may
    attract the eye of the local constabulary just a bit too much. (Not
    that I'll be doing anything illegal with TWO-HUNDRED AND EIGHTY
    FOOT-POUNDS of neck-snapping TORQUE on tap in a 3,400 lbs car!!!) ;-)
    ;-) ;-)
    
    I knew that I'd use up that rebate that's been piling up on the GM card
    for the last few years sooner or later. :-)
    
    My biggest dillema is that I read a test report out on the web that
    quoted a Pontiac employee as stating that the engine can actually put
    out 300 HP, but the current tranny can't take that kind of power. He
    said they're "working on it". So I may hold off to see what the '98 is
    going to offer, if I can stand it that long. I'd just be bummin' if
    they announce an even nastier version before I've even made the 3rd
    payment on a new one!
    
    Anyway, it seems like a hell of a price for a great looking, awesome
    performing, family sedan. :-)
    
    Harry
    

    
    	Ick.  4-door?  Ick.
    
    	Did I say "ick" yet?
    
    	8^)
    

   re:-1

   Haven't seen the '97 Grand Prix, I take it.  It's to dream for in any 
   version.  To agree with Harry, a test drive and a little dickering will 
   prove this to be one of the sweetest values you will find.  

   Harry, did you check out the grey-green, or the new medium jade color?   

   Clark

    
    	I love the 2-door.
    

    .....and a lack of a 5 (or 6) spd.  

    
    
    Hey Harry,
    
    
    how's things out west these days....?
    as you can see I'm back @ DEC 
    ( atleast for now-subject to change without notice!)
    
    I've been debating to buy the 97 GTP coupe... for weeks...
    
    I test drove a GT and loved it so I know I'll love the GTP
    I got the catalog and video from the Pontiac web site within 3 days
    you might want to do that also...
    
    I read the same thing about the supercharged verison being able to pump
    out high 200's in horse power but they were limited in how they could
    control it (like you said tranny problems)
    
    
    My only concerns is one, my sh*t box mopar may not be a great trade-in
    at current moment, and I've about had it with taking the huge hit in
    depreciation on new cars.. I put so many miles on them yearly I tend to
    get rid of the 2-3 yrs and the value is just not there...
    
    so i'm checking my options for used 97 GP maybe later this fall I may
    find one or I've even been looking at the 95/96 Lincoln Mark VIII
    (don't snicker yet) this car is a mad machine 295hp, 0-60 in 7sec
     the cockpit is phenominal this car has everything...
    and its speed sensitive suspension is really cool...
    
    plus this cars listed high 30's low 40'k new and I can pick one up w/
    less than 25k on it for under $25k....so someone else took the hit on the
    depreciation and luxury taxes....
    
    
    Bill
                                                              

    >>.....and a lack of a 5 (or 6) spd.
    
    Yea...but who cares? Its gonna blow the doors off of 95% of all the
    other cars in a stpolight race.
       I think Harry ought to go to a Buick dealer and look at a Park Ave
    Ultra II. 280 HP 300 FT. Lbs. torque.
    I'm so goddam lazy, I wish my motorcycle had an automatic transmission.
    Hell...now that my teenagers drive, I let them take me everywhere and I
    just fall asleep.
    
    -john

    re .519
    Ummm... I believe the words "luxury taxes" can safely be categorized
    as "not applicable" in the Pontiac note.
    ;-)

    
    	That Lincoln Mark VIII is a beauty, Bill.
    
    	$25K sounds like a very good deal.
    

    
    
    I never even remotely thought of this car....
    
    I stereotypically threw it in the catagory of
    an Eldorardo...
    
    this is a really nice sports coupe!
    
    
    BS

      I was looking at the GTP and the Bonneville SSEi on the weekend
    and decided that if I was to get either it would be with the regular
    3.8. The loss of 4 MPG and the need to use Premium gas makes it
    much more expensive to run one up here in Canada where premium is
    45-50 cents a gallon more expensive than regular. 
       
      They are nice looking though....

>  Harry, did you check out the grey-green, or the new medium jade color?

Yep, that's the color we'll probably end up with unless the '98 is going to come
in blue or burgundy. I've about convinced myself to wait for the '98. There's a
chance it'll have more power, the new non-lethal airbags and might even come in
blue! :-)

>.....and a lack of a 5 (or 6) spd.

    The 1% of the time that a stick is fun doesn't make up for the other
    99% of the time that it's just a pain in the a$$. :-( Besides, I have a
    tendency to HAMMER on a stick, resulting in lots of broken parts,
    shredded clutch faces, etc. It's not pretty. There's just something
    about speed shifting. :-) :-) :-)

>how's things out west these days....?

They're pretty good, when I'm there. The program that I work for these days
keeps me living in various hotel rooms around the world. I usually only "visit"
Houston on the weekends.

>I got the catalog and video from the Pontiac web site within 3 days
> you might want to do that also...

Yep, I've already sent my request in via their website.

>My only concerns is one, my sh*t box mopar may not be a great trade-in
 >at current moment, and I've about had it with taking the huge hit in
 >depreciation on new cars.. I put so many miles on them yearly I tend to
 >get rid of the 2-3 yrs and the value is just not there...

If you're gonna trade that often, the financial beating can be severe. But I
tend to hang on to 'em for several years so I get my moneys' worth. I really
like the fact that I don t have to worry about constantly fixing a new one. Just
get in, turn the key and drive.


>I think Harry ought to go to a Buick dealer and look at a Park Ave
 >Ultra II. 280 HP 300 FT. Lbs. torque.

I looked out on their web page. They list the same specs as the Grand Prix GTP.
Supercharged 3.8L V6, 240 HP and 280 foot-lbs. Appears to be the same engine to
me. But the price is about $10K higher than the Grand Prix! 

    >The loss of 4 MPG and the need to use Premium gas makes it
    >much more expensive to run one up here in Canada where premium is

You have to look at it from the proper perspective. The other vehicle I was
considering is the 3/4-ton, 4WD, 454 powered Suburban. The fuel bill for a GTP
will be peanuts in comparison, even with the premium fuel price hit. (The TPI
383 in the ThunderTruck(tm) also requires premium fuel, to the tune of 13 MPG.
Filling up that 32 gallon tank puts some serious numbers on the pump!) :-(

Harry

>    You have to look at it from the proper perspective. The other vehicle
>    I wasconsidering is the 3/4-ton, 4WD, 454 powered Suburban. The fuel
>    bill for a GTP will be peanuts in comparison, even with the premium
>    fuel price hit. (The TPI383 in the ThunderTruck(tm) also requires
>    premium fuel, to the tune of 13 MPG.Filling up that 32 gallon tank 
>    puts some serious numbers on the pump!) :-(
 
     I see what you mean, that last vehicle would cost $78 to fill up
     here in Toronto  (ouch!)
     
     Compared to any of them a GTP would seem like an economy car.
    
    

I have a 5.7L newer suburban and a fillup can run between $47-$52US. I get more
remarks from the guy at the pump.

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

I meant to ask:

I have a 1994 Bonneville with 89K miles.  Well maintained at 
the dealer - had 30K and 65K full services, with GOF every 3K
in between.

Service engine soon light came on and stayed on a couple of days
ago, but hasn't come on in the past 2 days.  What might this indicate?
I plan on keeping the car for one more year.

Thanks - Mike
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    SES light is a catch all for a variety of problems which the computer
    has detected . Since it stayed on, a fault code should be stored and
    can be read out. The service manual interpretation of the code will 
    provide the LIKELY cause of the problem. At least it points you to the 
    sensor or sensors that the computer determined were out of range and 
    couldn't be compenated for. Sensors involved include Oxygen sensor,
    Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor, Throttle position sensor and
    a variety of others.
    
    Now if you don't have the service manual or know how to short out the 
    2 pins on the connector to have the fault code flash out let us know 
    now. Also let us know whether you have the desire to do this yourself
    OR if you were fishing for SWAGs on what it might be....
       Swapping parts on SWAGs gets real expensive so I wouldn't encourage 
    trying to fix it that way.
    
    		Dave          

I don't have the service manual, and I'm not a self-maintainer.  
If you were keeping the car for no more than one more year, how much
would you worry about this?  Is this something that would be caught in
the course of doing a tune-up?

thanks again - Mike
[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    You need to drop by a dealer or a repair shop that has the 
    mechanism to read what the error code was.  Once they read the
    code, then they can tell you if its a real problem or not.
    As was said earlier, it's a catch-all diagnostic light that
    can mean anything from a stuck-once-EGR-valve (that fixed itself)
    to a faulty piece of the emissions system that could shut down
    and leave you stranded.  Without knowing the code, it's a crap
    shoot.  Have a local garage read the codes and you can go from
    there.
    
    andy
    

    "Tune up" these days is a terrible expression. Mainly because price
    wars combined with fewer moving parts means a tune up on a 
    Bonneville with the 3.8 is a spark plug change and an air filter.
    Chances are, if you didn't tell them to check for "codes" they wouldn't
    look for one..YMMV.
    
    Anyway, the most likely spot you would get "found" is in emissions 
    testing. 
    
         Call the garage you usually do business with and tell them you
    had the "SES" light come on and think you may have a stored code.
    You would like them to read out the code and give you the diagnosis.
    Cost for a garage reading out the code and telling you what the
    computer thinks is bad varies but is typically $50 and up. The sensors
    are more expensive so you really want to be sure.
    BTW, if it's occasional now, it will likely be solid on and cause
    drive-ability problems within a year.
    
    	Dave  

    You can read the codes yourself using a paperclip and the instructions
    in 55.452.  It takes about 5 minutes and you don't even need to get
    grease on your hands.
    
    Once you have the code(s), enter them here and we can tell you what the
    code is complaining about.  Note that there may be many possible
    solutions to a given code, but at least you should get an idea of how
    bad it is (or isn't) from the code.  On a car of your vintage, I'd echo
    the earlier sentiment that it could easily be as simple as a sensor 
    failure.  But the first task is to read the code.
    
    If you feel up to it, give it a try.  It's quick and painless.
    
    -- Russ

I looked under the steering wheel per .452 - the only thing I found
appears to be a 16 pin thing - way down by the brake pedal.  Is this
what I'm looking for?  The light hasn't come on since Sunday.  Thanks 
to everyone for your help.

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    re: .535
    
    Since you're "blessed" with the 16 pin interface, you need a scanner to
    retrieve the codes (as far as I know, at least).  You'll probably need 
    to take it into a shop and have them do it.
    
    In your shoes, I'd consider having some place pull the codes for you
    and GIVE YOU THE ACTUAL CODE NUMBERS.  I'm sure they'll be happy to
    recommend some additional work as well  8^}.
    
    If you elect not to check the codes, you could begin to see performance
    degradation (or worse) if a sensor is going bad.  I'd suggest you at
    least call around for a good price for the specific task of pulling the
    codes.  It shouldn't cost an arm and a leg, although it probably won't
    be exactly pocket change.
    
    -- Russ

    re: I have a 5.7L newer suburban and a fillup can run between
    $47-$52US.  I get more remarks from the guy at the pump.
    
    Ya, like see ya in 2 or 3 weeks.
    
    I have a '90 burban with a 350 (5.7), with headers, I get about 17mpg.
    Not bad.  Expensive to fill, but then again, I don't have to stop every
    3 hours for gas if I'm going anywhere.
    
    Then again, I wouldn't want to make a habit of commuting in one either.
    
    MadMike

    It also occurs to me that some places may include the cost of pulling
    the codes into some service, like a computer-based engine analysis at
    ~$50 per hour.  That might be a reasonable use of funds.
    
    -- Russ

    re: the codes
    
    Here's what you do....
    
    Show up at the dealership service dept and say, hey, this "light came on".
    See if they'll dump the codes out in the parking lot (it's a SIMPLE
    thing to do and fast).   WATCH them dump the codes....
    
    Post what they are here.  The dealership will say "hmmm... 44 and 45
    and....  (gonna be expensive sucker).  Do you want us to fix your car?"
    
    No thankyou.  I'll get back to you.
    
    If your car ran rich/lean for a period of time, you're o2 sensor
    is probably bad.  Pop on down to your local shop and say "how much
    can you replace my o2 sensor for?"   Probably $25.
    
    Tune up = new spark plugs... for $350.  If you're "lucky", you might
    get new wires, distributor cap/rotor, and a filter or two...
    
    MadMike

    re: Note 55.538 by NEWVAX::PAVLICEK
    
    That's why you go to the dealer...  they're licking their chops to
    "help" you.  Once you got the number(s), screw 'em...
    
    MadMike

    Need to install a speed density update kit (PROM and DCAL) in a 1988
    Pontiac 6000. Looking for instructions.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Les