Conference ssdevo::4wd

    re .251
    
         4.0 six in a wrangler and your parents thought is was
    underpowered?   Must have been running on cooking oil, or your Dad is
    related to Tim Allen on Tool Time... ;>)    . My sister's old boyfriend 
    had one that I took out on a twisty road and just about soiled myself 
    as it had way too much power for such a small wheelbase.
    
    
          I have the same engine with the auto in a much heavier Grand
    Cherokee, and it has plenty of pep. But I also have the trailering
    package with higher number diffs and use good gas.
    
          And you do want a straight six as they usually provide better
    torque off the line, which is what a 4x4 needs.  I've pulled one too
    many 4 bangers/v6s out of deep sand when they overreved the mills to get
    some horsepower, while my straight six lunged us all right out of
    there.

    Rachael,
    
      I opted for a used 94 4.0 liter automatic when there were no sticks
    to be found anywhere, (and the only hope of getting a six cylinder from
    the factory was to buy a Cherokee.....this was in late 1994). I've
    never been dissapointed. This jeep is nowhere near sluggish. It's got
    so much low end torque that it really surprised me the first time I
    drove it. The only complaint I have with the automatic is that it would
    be nice to have an overdrive or fourth speed for highway driving. 
    
       Go for the 4.0 liter Wrangler, you won't be dissapointed! I'd buy
    another in a heartbeat....
    
    

OK,
	Here's the plan so far:  

I'm buying:

Wrangler Sport (that's 4.0L)
Dana 44 with Trak-loc axle
The "D" package (full sized spare, engine compartment light, larger gas tank,
tilt steering, intermittent wipers,some other stuff)
Rear Window Defroster
Hard Top
Vinyl seats (so when I do all this robust 4-wheeling I can hose the thing down)
Bodyside steps (protect against dings)
Tow hooks (cause they're cheap, else I'd go aftermarket.  $40 MSRP)
Standard

I've heard convincing arguments for an automatic, but I just don't like driving
them and won't get one.

I am considering AC.  It costs $746/878 (invoice/list, Edmunds) and I don't like
it.  I don't have it now in my CRX and I don't miss it.  I'm not worried about
resale because I don't intend to sell this ever, and if I do, well, tough.  I'm
conservative about my future regarding my 401K, but not this.  However, it's
nice about once a year when I have to dress up in the summer, so I will think
about it.  I get $400 rebate as a recent college grad (I knew that six years of 
night school was good for something) so maybe I'll blow it towards AC.

I'm planning on keeping the back seat in just long enough to give my friends a
ride, then take it out.  Not having had one in 8 years, I doubt I'll miss it

I don't think this thing will run 170,000+ miles without a problem like my CRX
has, but it seems like it will do OK.

I'm thinking of offering some dealer to pay invoice and require $1K for my
(worthless, must be wholesaled) car.  Then they can talk me up a few hundred and
it will be OK.

I have a few things going on right now in other circles which will be resolved
in the next few weeks, then I will be ready to shop.


Rachael

    RACHE,
    
    Not to talk you into the AC but it's ALWAYS going to make the car 
    worth MORE MONEY...even if you end up JUNKING it.
    
    The slightly extra weight on the front wheels will actually ADD to 
    front end tracking and traction in 4WD.
    
    Plus the comfort is always there when you need it...especially roving 
    around in cities or further South in the Summer.  AC also helps your
    system remove humidity from the interior and off the windows about 
    10 times faster in humid Spring/Fall conditions than with conventional 
    systems. 
    
    Think of it as an investment... you're blowing only 1/2 of what you'd 
    spend on an automatic tranny and you'll even get some of it back when you 
    dump the vehicle.
    

Well,
	
	The AC is still in question.  I might buy it for that once a year when
it'd be nice, like going to a summer wedding in my girliest outfit.  Also, I am
concerned about the melting temperature of the ole' boyfriend, who is generally
a lot warmer than I am.

	Does anyone know for sure what they mean by the heavy duty suspension? 
The Jeep salesman said it was just better shocks, in which case I wouldn't
bother buying it now.  I'd like to know for sure that it's not different springs.

	Also, I don't see a heavy duty cooling option to buy.  Anyone see
anything for that?

Thanks,

Rachael

    1 thing to think about. The 1st time you need a clutch, Unless you do
    this yourself, it is going to cost you about the same as that automatic 
    is adding to the price. But you will lose some of the engine braking 
    with the slush box.
    
    Been there, done that, etc...
    
    No reason the Wrangler will not go 170K. I had 140K when I sold my old
    Jeep, and it was running fine. If you believe this, then you have to say
    "Man, at an avg of 40 mph, it is going to take a loooooooooong time to
    put 170,000 miles on it by myself". So you might as well make it 
    comfortable. And you can divide that extra 2 grand over 8-12 years and
    it comes up peanuts.
    
    Check to see if they have a trailering package, that will get you the
    heavy shocks, cooling system, alt, and battery. Best to check the Jeep
    Home page or the Edmunds home page as all that info is there.

re:  several

I am getting a standard because I'd rather drive one, not for price.  

I've been going over Edmunds and the Jeep web pages.  I haven't seen anything
for a towing package.  Has anyone else bought one on the new vehicle?  The
Sahara version of the Wrangler is beefier, but it's too expensive for me.

Also, regarding an earlier note on EPA estimated MPG.  I know they're not
accurate.  But, I've always found my milage to be higher.  I couldn't tell what
was meant in the note mentioning this.  Does a Jeep usually do worse than the
estimate?  Or will it follow the driver, and probably do better with me driving
it?

Thanks,

Rachael

    re: .260 by RICKS::BERMAN
    
    Hi Rachael,
    
    I tend to get EPA estimated MPG or better as well.  I wouldn't worry about
    that.  Your good driving habits will carry through.
    
    I also prefer a standard transmission.  Unfortunately for me, I think
    towing packages tend to favor automatics.  I don't know how it is on
    the Wrangler.  On the Cherokee Sport back in '94, towing package ==
    automatic.
    
    I'll second/third the other comments about air conditioning.
    
    Anytime you're ready, we can do a Rachael's Jeep christening off-road
    trip.  :-)  Maybe in the spring?
    
    Cheers,
    
    /Bill

re -.1

Hey Bill,
	
	Sure, a Spring trip sounds great.  You'll have to wrestle Sassy for the
passenger seat, though.  Maybe we can go and pick up a rugby game while we're at
it, since you've been dying to play.

	
Rachael

 Heavy duty shocks are substantially stiffer, and make for a much rougher
 ride.  They are not better shocks, but are just heavy load.  Ditto for
 heavy duty springs.  

 Bruce 

    Rache,
    
    If you get AC you automatically get:
    -heavy duty cooling pkg (big/clutch fan & big radiator)
    -heavy duty/high output alternator
    -higher rate front springs
    
    That takes care of THAT.
    
    As for heavy suspension, there are usually 2-3 `grades' of `heavy
    duty'...
    Cheap trick...stiff shocks
    Better trick... stiff shocks and heavier F & R sway bars
    Best trick... stiff shocks, heavier sway bars, stronger springs
    Trailer pkg... = Best trick WITH a hitch.
    
    The higher the "trick" level, the rougher the ride... your choice,
    your liver and kidneys... 
    
    This is NOT a joke... long distance bike riders who know what they are
    DOING always wear a kidney belt to keep from shortening the useable life 
    of their innards by constant jiggling. 
    
      Regards,
    

You guys have me almost convinced to buy AC.  I really would rather live without
it, but it's probably worth it to be nice to passengers who were not brought up
in hot and humid Maryland summers.  I just hope I don't go soft because of it.

Do I have to have it serviced every year or something if I buy it?

Rachael

    re: .265 by RICKS::BERMAN
    
    >> turning soft
    
    You?  I rather doubt it.  I don't think I can play rugby on the same
    field as you.  You can put me on the sidelines with the sissies.
    
    >> AC service every year?
    
    Probably not.  Mine's going on 3 years without service.  I'll probably
    get it checked out this spring in preparation for my x-country trip to
    Colorado.
    
    >> .262 - Sassy
    
    No way I'll be in the same vehicle.  I'm a control freak and must drive
    my own.  ;-)  Besides, how else can I get some video of your Jeep? 
    (as if a done deal)
    
    Have a good weekend everybody,
    
    /Bill

The strongest argument against a stiff suspension for around town use is
the prevalence of speed bumps.  Suspensions are generally optimized for
one wheel hitting an object, not both wheels on the same axel at the
same time.  Speed bumps are designed to give drivers of soft suspension
vehicles a good cramp in the neck for awhile.  Many drivers of the stiffer
suspended vehicles are being injured and crippled by those speed bumps
from compression of the vertebrae in their necks, the symptoms are very
much like carpal tunnel and just as debilitating.

Well, Mom and Dad test drove another Wrangler this weekend, and a RAV4.  Dad
says about the RAV4 "You can't take it off-road, not even a little bit".  (Dad
is a bit of a perfectionist.)  Mom liked it.
	
They were both much happier with this Wrangler and think something must have
been wrong with the other one that they drove.  Mom said they had trouble going
from 4WD to 2WD in the other, and  had to back up to do it.  (That's supposed to
be bad for some reason?)  The one they drove this weekend had plenty of power.

The dealer (in Santa Monica) outright lied to my parents and told them they
couldn't even order a Dana 44 axle.  They used to be on hold, but haven't been
for a while.  M&D think he just wanted to sell the Jeeps on the lot.

I'm thinking of shopping for real in  about three weeks.

Thanks for all the help so far.



Rachael

Hey, uh, what are the windows made out of in the hard-top?

I tapped on one yesterday and it seemed like plastic, but so did the
door-window, and I know that one is glass.

Thanks,

Rachael

OK, I ordered the Jeep this weekend.

The 1997 Wrangler Sport (ie 6 cylinder)

with the convenience package (25D,) A/C, hardtop, rear defroster, Dana 44 axle
with Trak-loc, bodysides steps, and front tow hooks.  The tow hooks were cheap
enough not to bother with after-market.

Thanks for all the advice.

I paid $250 over invoice.  I know that I could have driven a tougher deal, but I
don't mind giving the dealer some amount of money.  I just didn't want to get
fleeced.

I got my numbers from Edmunds.  I had to do some extrapolation, as the MSRP had
gone up since Edmunds was published.  The numbers were very accurate.

Rachael