Conference hbahba::cam_sports

	The Mets kept their personel streak alive last night by loosing #23
	in a row!

	Even though the Bucs have faded into the "also rans" this year, there
	is pleasure to be taken in that the Mets are "never rans".


	billl

 Actually Bill, it's one of their pitchers strangely enough a guy by the
 name of _____ Young who has lost 23 games in a row.....

 mike

    Anthony Young.... SOunds like a pitcher the Red S*cks could use...
    
    REK

The streak he has tied is 80 years old.....


'Saw

    Anthony Young....
    
    The Stage Deli in Mainhatt'n_a_champeenship_in_years is gonna name a
    saingwich after Anthony. The YoungStuff... two pieces of rye with
    nothin' in the middle.
    
    BTW dese here Mets could use Richie Ashburn, Marv Throneberry, Don
    Zimmer, Eddie Bressoud and the rest of the '62 club. Better git em
    before the Red Soxd do..
    
    MikeL
    
    

-

Bill -

Actually these Mets remind me of the 60's Mets (pre 69) and
the woeful, woeful (did I say woeful?) mets on the 70's.

Almost comical.  Hopefully they'll smarten up and get back
to rebuilding their farm system. For years they produced good
players - especially pitchers - but have gone the free agent
route, while squandering the farm system.  

Glenn W. a while back put in notes about how the Mets were
ruined - and I agreed with him.   They had a strong, young
nucleaus, but they let it go the way of personality clashes,
etc.

The dismantling began when they ripped the soul out of the team
by getting rid of Mookie, Wally and Lenny.  They personified the
Mets.   My Mookie card is always on my wall - a reminder of 
another mistake the Mets made.

The constant shifting around of players screwed up HoJo, Elster (plus
his constant injuries) and Jeffries.

I hope they commit full time to rebuilding - and there is indication
they will.  I certainly hope they can offload a few players down
the stretch to a contender that needs a bat or an arm to make
the run - and get some PROSPECTS....

JD

    The Red Sox probably could use him.  Last I checked, his ERA was under
    4.00.. around 3.6+... less than guys like Bankhead, Dopson and Hesketh.

    Bring back George Theodore...

    Looks like Joe McIlvaine can have the GM's job if he wants it.
    He was being groomed by the Mets to replace Frank Cashen, but
    went to San Diego when he was offered the GM's job there.  He
    was fired this year, due in part to the cost cutting there.
    
    It's amazing that the Mets haven't won two in a row since the
    middle of April.  My reaction to the season has shifted from
    disappointment to the hope of deals to bring prospects in.
    Hopefully, the Mets can contend in a few years.  I don't expect
    them to be much better next year.
    
    Mike

    
    Re-hiring McIlvaine would be an excellent move.  I wish the Red Sox would
    do it.  The guy's taken a lot of heat in San Diego for acting as the
    ownership hatchet man but even in that role look at some of the steals
    he's pulled off (Sheffield, Plantier, Derek Bell) for young, useful
    players that a team could build on.  It's not his fault that the team
    is so financially strapped and/or greedy.
    
    Joe McIlvaine was one of the guys resposible for building the Mets up.
    Al Harazin did one of the worst jobs possible in his stead.  If this
    happens it is definite improvement.
    
    glenn
    

Agreed; getting McIlvan back would be a good idea. 

Just say no toe hiring Gorman - don't even think about it.

The Crazy Met

    Maybe there's an attempt to heiser(tm) except there's no claim for
    a championship pending...
    
    Had to try out my trademark, since the rights have been given to me.
    

Walt you should know better than to misuse a (tm).

The Crazy Met

    I said attempt, I didn't say it was a correct use...
    

Walt, incorrect use has been held by the courts as possibly invalidating
a trademark so you really should be more careful.

The Crazy Met

    I have the rights, I can abuse as I see fit.  I was merely pointing out
    that this was an invalid attempt to use the word...
    

    I did recommend to TCM via mail that he change his p_name.
    
    I suggested:
    
    "Mets in '98"
    
    The reply I got was NOT pretty.   (8^)
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
         Don't worry Jake, his P_name will be changing soon enough.
    HaHAHA...
    
    
    
    Chappy

    >BTW dese here Mets could use Richie Ashburn, Marv Throneberry, Don
    >Zimmer, Eddie Bressoud and the rest of the '62 club. Better git em
    >before the Red Soxd do..
    
    Actually, the 63 Sox did seize the opportunity and traded one Pumpsie
    "Israel" Green for Bressoud and the run for the '63 pennant.  And right
    into June those Sox contended with another bright hope one Dick sf
    Stuart's slugging leading the way.  They finished was down the pack and
    Dick and Eddie were soon sent packing.
    
    Of course along with the afore-mentioned Zimmer they grabbed another
    notable Met talent in the 80s to lead them to a dynasty.
    
    Lou Gorman
    
    

    Anthony Young loses his 24th consecutive decision breaking the ML mark.
    Mets lose 5-3.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    What's TCM going to do when the Mets finish behind BOTH expansion
    teams?

    
    
          He'll probably pull a "Heiser" (walts tm.)
    
    
    Chappy

Chappy, that last statement was libelous. Say what you will about my
rooting interests, but I have never pulled a Heiser or a Childs (tms)
when it comes to fulfilling p_name bets.

The Crazy Met

    
    
          I never said you weren't gonna pay up on your bet. I was just
    referring to when you were running your mouth off in the Yankee file
    trying to get a bet going cuz you figured you had an advantage cuz of
    the Expansion teams.
    
    
    Chappy

hmm, I'll have to take a look at those notes again.

The Crazy Met

Not throwing stones, just stating what seem to be the facts.

re: Mets - other than Fernandez they did not do much. Personally that
does not upset me at all. I'll make a p-name bet with anyone here that
the Mets will do better than the Yankee in 1993.

Of course now that I opened my mouth Gooden,Saberhage, HoJo,Bonilla,
Fernandez, will all be injured for 3 months :-)

The Crazy Met
    
    ____________________________________________________________________
    Sounds like mouth runnage to me!!!!!!!!
    
    Chappy

Oh ok thats what I had assumed.

Fine we're on. Only thing that counts is number of wins during the regular
season.  Good, now I have about 8 months to figure out the p-name that Chappy will
need to use for a month when the Mets clinch a better record than the Yankees.

The Crazy Met
    
    ______________________________________________________________
    
    And MORE!!!!!! You be the judge?
    
    Chappy

Well I wasn't that far off on the DL list :-(

thanks for reposting, I think :-)

The Crazy Met 

    How about that new movie coming about about the sixth grader pitching
    for the Cubs.  The commericial features the kid blowing one by Bobby
    Bonilla for strike 3.

>    How about that new movie coming about about the sixth grader pitching
>    for the Cubs.  The commericial features the kid blowing one by Bobby
>    Bonilla for strike 3.

The way the Met are playing.....


Nah, I won't be THAT cruel....


'Saw

    The Mucking Fets are on course to finish the season with a grand total
    of 47 wins.
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    Cain't resist
    
    JaKe
    

hmm, that many.  I guess the 1962 Mets must have had some long second
half losing streaks to finish with only 40 wins.

The Crazy Met

    So there I am, stuck in Pips-cats-a-way, with nuthin' to do.  So I tune
    into the Mets (Actually switching Mets/Yanks).
    
    That Florida-Tarp fiasco was the dumbest thing I've ever seen...  I was
    rolling in my room with laughter.
    
    Only in a Mets game...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    
    I caught it on ESPN this AM.  Only the MEts would be soo bad that they
    are 10+ games behind a team that cain't figure out how to get the tarp
    off the OF and onto the IF.
    
    brews

    The game was in Miami...
    

    
    Casey Stengel, when he was managing the horrible old Boston Braves some 
    40-odd years ago was quoted as saying to his barber: "Don't cut my 
    throat--I may want to do that later, myself." And that was 20 years 
    -before- taking over the '62 Mets.
    
    I wonder what ol' Case would do to revitalize things, were he alive and 
    willing to assume the reins of the current crop of Metropolitains ?
    
    I open this up for speculation, and start it off with three plausible 
    scenarios:
    
    1-Hire R.L. Miller (1-12) to be Anthony Young's personal pitching coach.
    
    2-Engage Marv Throneberry to conduct a series of positive thinking
    seminars.
    
    3-Begin a rebuilding program by hiring Choo-Choo Coleman, citing 'ya
    gotta start with a catcher, 'cuz ya need someone to catch the ball'.
    
    Kat
    
       

    They need Chico Escuela
    

    re-.1
    
    Ya know the other night, they were interviewing Carlos Garcias of the
    Pirates before the game, and with his accent, all I could thing of was
    Chico Excuela saying,  "Base-a-ball been berry, berry good to me."
    
    JaKe
    

	Paraphrasing Jay Leno on last night's Tonight Show:

	I saw another movie recently, Rookie of the Year.  It's about
	a young kid who breaks his arm, and when it heals abnormally, he
	has a major league fastball.  He signs with the Cubs.  Then he
	breaks his arm again, and can no longer pitch, so he signs with
	the Mets.

Met won lasted night - that's 3 straight!  Oh be still my fainting heart~  ;-)

Also, Bret Saber-Haven has hinted that due to all his injuries, etc., that he
may retire when his contract is up...

JD

    I saw that joke on Leno last night - I was rollin'!!!!!!!!!
    
    Jay had a little more pizzaz in his delivery - said somthing like,
    yeah, the movie ends on a sad note.  The kid hurts his arm, can't throw
    at all anymore, ... so he signs with the Mets!!!
    
    NAZZ                   

Of course, Hilman pitches 8 incredible innings and leaves with a 1-0 lead.
Franco gets the first 2 batters in the 9th, then gives up a walk, 2 hits and
the game is tied 1-1. Mets win in the 10th; Franco - the #$#&&** - gets
the win.

The Crazy Met

ps then again this was against SD which is almost like playing an 
expansion team.

    Any update on this Coleman-firecracker alleged incident?
    

LAPD is looking into it. I have not had a chance to read the NYT yet.
From what the announcers were saying, Eric Davis was in the car or cab
with Coleman and confirmed that Coleman threw the firecracker.

The Crazy Met

    
    Is Vince Coleman the biggest idiot in the history of baseball or what?
    Who would even *consider* doing something that stupid, much less
    carrying it out?  And this is not an isolated incident, either...
    
    glenn
     

agreed Glenn. A thoroughly idiotic thing to do.

now what was that about Clemens and getting thrown out of a playoff game :-) :-)

The Crazy Met

    This whole Coleman thing was obviously fabricated by the Boston media.

Mac, 'ya lost me there. Glenn understands exactly what the second line
was aimed at so I'm not real sure what the Boston media has to do with it.
So Mac, congratulations once again, 2 notes and twice they're tangents-R-us(tm).
Hey Mac is getting so good at this we should have him teach a seminar in
this. How about it, Mac, at the next get together??

The Crazy Met

ok, did anyone understand what Mac was trying to say in .48??

The Crazy Met

    
     re .51
    
     Yes.

                                                                        
> Mac, 'ya lost me there. Glenn understands exactly what the second line
> was aimed at
    
    Yes, and it comes dangerously close to a meaningless tangent because
    there is no similiarity to the cases (an apt comparison to Clemens'
    playoff blowup would be the George Brett pine-tar incident, where a
    player who was similarly unfairly ruled against by an umpire on the
    field of play threw a fit and "bumped" an umpire).  Now if you'd 
    mentioned Bayou Mama's, you'd at least have been in the neighborhood...
    
    glenn
    

I guess 2 :-) don't count for anything these days.
And Glenn it wasn't a case of comparing the incidents, but rather about
a "agreement" -well sort of-that you once proposed.

The Crazy Met

    Well, since TCM still doesn't get it, I'll try it once more, just for
    him:  Anything bad that happens in NY is obviously just a figment of a
    Boston reporter's imagination.
    
    My comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the Clemens comment.

Well Mac, this is one more time where we disagree - surprise, surprise.

The Crazy Met

> a "agreement" -well sort of-that you once proposed.
    
    Okay, now I gotcha.  But I told you-- a total, unqualified public
    condemnation.  Not just that "yes, Mets will be Mets" stuff I got
    before... ;-)
    
    glenn
      

Well, Glenn this time you get an unqualified condemnation of what Coleman
did. Mind boggling stupidity on his part.

The Crazy Met

    And TCM still doesn't get it.

Mac you are totally clueless, which is not uncommon,  to what Glenn
and I are discussing. Your notes in this context are total and
complete drivel and are a real waste of disk space. If you want to do
some serious and useful wasting of disk space go into the junk note 
and start us on the road to 10000 replies.

The Crazy Met

    There goes that testy Mets' fan again...

Mac, Mac, Mac, when will you learn that just calling someone testy won't
win you any arguments?? You're becoming almost as bad as MrT, but at least 
T-man had a flair and a way with words that made him worth reading.
Too bad notes doesn't have the equivalent of usenet's kill file.

The Crazy Met

Sorry folks no ESPN for me. this weekend

What did Coleman do ???

    Coleman was identified by Eric Davis of the Dodgers as having throw a
    firecracker at fans after a game @ Dodgers Stadium.  Three (3) people
    were treated for minor injuries including a:
    
    o 1-year-old girl (2nd degree burns to cheek & possible eye injury)
    o 33-year-old woman w/ history of vertigo (complaining of ringing
      in her ears)
    o 11-year-old boy (cuts on chin)
    
    Coleman had no comment other than "get out from in front of my locker"
    when he was asked about the incident prior to Sunday's game.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    I'm curious, as one who has had (as a youth of course) several
    firecrackers 'splode in my hands) the amount of damage to these folks
    certainly seem to be NOT from yer basic firecracker.  Is it possible he
    a) tossed more than one?  b) used something like a M-80 ?
    
    I remain,
    stunned that 1 firecracker cain do that!
    Kev
    

I was just going to say the same thing.

I had a fire-cracker go off in my hand one time and got a burn.  I also
had a bottle rocket take a chunk out of my hip, and never missed a stride.
(Neither pained me as much as the chunk of magnesium road flare that burned
me one time).

Vince had to have been packing some serious firepower there.....


'Saw

Have any criminal charges been filed?  If it was my one year old daughter,
I'd be camped out at the DA's office until something was done.  I
don't know what Coleman had in mind, but this goes way beyond a prank.


Jerry

    
      On this morning's Sportscenter, they quoted an LA police department
     offical as saying that it *is* being investigated and, if they find 
     the grounds for them, charges will be filed. Seeing as how Eric Davis
     already ratted him out, I'd say Coleman is screwed. 

    The kid who used to beat me up in Junior high was pranking with
    fireworks in High school.  He was gonna flush a M80 down the commode.

    He lit the thing, and a teacher walked in.  His immediate response was
    to hide the cracker behind his back.  Bad move.  Blew off most of his
    hand...

    Too bad, because I grew 7 inches in High School and was gonna get some
    pay-back outta that clowns arse...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

At my summer job during college, at the Waste Water Plant, we were always
horsing around (which was highly against the rules but we didn't care).

Most times it was water, but this one day one of the regulars had some
M-80s.   He had a bucket with him, and went into the garage area where a 
couple of guys were working at a work bench against the wall, backs to the
rest of the garage. 

He lit two of the M-80s, put them in the bucket and set the bucket in the
middle of the garage.   A bunch of the rest of us were outside.

Those two charges went off, and it was the biggest bang I'd ever heard.
We had two Vietnam vets who worked there, and one of them was walking across
the compound, and out of reflex, he hit the deck.  He said later it
sounded like a grenade.


Needless to say the guys in the garage couldn't hear too well for the
rest of the afternoon, and it was good that they were both young, because
it could have been heart-attack city.  

I'm glad I wasn't involved, other than knowing enough to be OUTSIDE
the garage.....


Nasty stuff,
'Saw

    The explosive that Coleman allegedly threw was cherry-bomb. Hopefully,
    the charges against him will be serious enough so that it will void the
    rest of his contract and the Mets can get rid of this cancer.
    
    I heard Coleman's favorite song is:
    
    Saturday in the Park,everyday's the 4th of July. )-*:

    Hey TCM, while you're off buying a clue, pick up some valium too.

Man, Vince Coleman just does not learn from stupid mistakes.

Back when he was playing for the Cardinals, he and several others from the team
were gonna fly down to New Orleans for Mardi Gras.  When he sent his carry-ons 
through the X-Ray machine, the security people noticed some firecrackers in one
of the bags.  They asked Coleman what they were for.

His response: "I'm gonna blow up the plane with them".  Dumb move.  He got to 
spend the next 8-10 hours with the Feds trying to pull his butt outta the hole
he put himself into.


He just doesn't learn...


jim()

    
     So much for Glenn Waugaman's argument that baseball players have
    to be smarter than other athletes. If Coleman was any dumber he'd
    work for the DMV.

    I know that Eric Davis is Vince's buddy, but even tho he fingered
    Coleman as tossing the firecrackers, I find his attitude odd as well.
    I guess that Davis made light (no pun) of the incident saying that
    "Vince just dropped them out the window, and I just laughed. I was
    brought up to laugh and joke when someone lights off firecrackers."
    I paraphrase.
    Well if this alleged incident is true Eric, I don't suggest you laugh
    when the bleep hits the fan.
    
    MikeL
     

    Didn't Eric_the_(formally)Red drive the get-a-way like a bat outta
    hell?
    
    Maybe ESPN was over reacting to the news...

    
    > So much for Glenn Waugaman's argument that baseball players have
    > to be smarter than other athletes. If Coleman was any dumber he'd
    > work for the DMV.
    
    Hey, I didn't say they had to be smarter, I said that they had to have
    a higher level of concentration than with some of the skills in other
    sports.  It takes some intense mental concentration to light a 
    short-fused cherry bomb and know exactly when to throw it for greatest
    effect...
    
    glenn
     

Clue? Isn't that a board game Mac? I stopped playing that a while ago. But
it probably is tough enough to seriously challenge your intellect. Maybe
for next Christmas I'll pick up a game for you; woops wait a minute, make
that Chanukah.


back to the Mets: One of the reasons that there was some doubt as to what 
happened was because the injuries that were sustained were not consistent 
with what a firecracker can do. A cherry bomb can do that kind of damage.
I didn't know about the incident going down to Mardi Gras. Dumber than I
thought.

The Crazy Met

    	Things ain't all bad for Coleman.  I heard he was contacted as
    being a possible spokesperson for the Firecracker 500.
    
    				/Don

>    BTW - for those that have had firecrackers go off in your hands:
>    You have to be smarter than a firecracker to throw it after it's lit.

The one I had had a quick fuse.  I lit it and was in my wind-up when it
went.  Fortunately it was only one of those little ones (ladyfingers???).


I did get hit with an errant bottle-rocket at 4th of July lakeside party
once.  We had about 70 tubes in the ground on the shore and we were 
using cigars to light the fuses.   Someone messed up BEHIND me, and the
dang thing went straight, hit my hip, deflected down, hit my calf, hit
the ground and skittered into the lake.   I was bleeding, looked down
and saw all body parts we where they belonged, and said "cool".

I did almost lose an eye once, and here's a word to the wise:  I was
back away at a safe distance.   It was one of those rocket pack things
where about a million rockets shoot out.   One of the little rockets
shot out and immediately went sideways.   Well, it was coming straight
for my head, and it was pure reflex, I moved my head to the side.   It
came by so close I had a little burn on my cheek.    


Needless to say, I give fireworks a fairly wide berth these days....


Saw

  I never did understand what the big thrill about firecrackers and such was.
  I mean, you light it, it burns down, it goes *BOOM*. Big damn deal. For that
  you pay money? I could see how it might entertain kids but grown men? The big
  fireworks like at the Esplanade on the 4th, I can understand. But firecrackers
  and cherr bombs?

Personally, I've always liked sparklers.  They are probably the prettiest
things you can get (except for some of the things that shoot into the
sky and make pretty colors).....


'Saw

    We used to terrorize milk boxes and mail boxes with M-80's.  Had an
    M-200 once and duct taped it to a tree that my Dad hated, thing had a
    trunk that was bout 4" in diameter, lit the fuse and ran like hell. 
    Thing went off and down came the tree, blew thru the trunk CLEANLY,  plus,
    some of my dad's neighbors came running out of their houses to see what 
    the hell happened, the thang was so loud.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    
    >>	Things ain't all bad for Coleman.  I heard he was contacted as
    >>being a possible spokesperson for the Firecracker 500.
    
    Yeah, but he's chartered to show up via an Allison Airlines Helicopter.
    
    (8^0
    
    JaKe
    

what's the deal with Saberhagen (sp?) and the bleach gun?  i heard on the news
this am that he loaded a water gun with Clorox and shot some reporter type on 
the back of the neck.  

can somebody fill me in?

jim()

    Oh those Crazy Mets.
    
    Anthony Young broke his streak of consecutive losses last night.  He
    gave up an unearned run in the inning he pitched but the Mets bats
    bailed him out in the bottom of the inning.

      Why would someone be left in the majors when they lose 20+ straight? 
    
    
     Tim

    I was wondering the same thing, 27 loses in a row ????  I could do
    better then that let me pitch 25 games, and maybe Ill get lucky and
    my team will score 30 runs the night I give up 29 :-)
    
    Everytime they ran a story on him losing #22, 23 etc I just couldnt
    beleive they kept him in the Big League ?????
    
    Oh its the mets..
    							MaB

Here's one example to back that up...
                            W    ERA  H+BB/IP    S   W   L    G  GS.....
Anthony Young      NYM      1   4.19  1.457      1    1  13   31  8  1 13   0   1   81.7   86   51   38   6   33   50
Ben Rivera         PHI      9   5.13  1.720      0    9   5   17 17  0  0   0   0   93.0  107   59   53   9   53   67
    

anybody read garfield the other day...

He was watching tv and two kids are behind him 
One says " He's watching his favorite soap opera"

Then they show garfield bawling...

The other says "yea, the mets"

  Vince Coleman's tearful apology at his news conference yesterday rang 
 very hollow to these ears. Especially because it was obvious that the words
 were not his own but those of some legal hack. And the bit about being "a
 loving father" ranked about an 8 on the puke-inductor scale. Yeah, Vince, 
 you're a father and a juvenile at the same time, you're two, two, two losers
 in one. Usually, I say being an idiot is in itself punishment enough but 
 in this case I think a bit more is called for. I say the Mets should play
 Vince and subject him to the ridicule of the fans. He should be made to 
 apologize face to face to the parents and grandparents of the child he in-
 jured. He should be made to do community service in a children's burn clinic.
 And then he should be taken outside and shot.

re: .93

Couldn't agree with you more.  The whole thang was so contrived, it reminded me 
of Sugar Ray's "tearful" admission of drug addiction to cover his own arse in 
divorce proceedings.

    .86 Welcome Jim!!
    
    I also would like to know what happened with this "bleach gun"
    incident.
    
    I heard something on the radio that Saberhagen denied shooting bleach
    at reporters. He did say that all he did was toss a firecracker
    underneath a table where some reporters were sitting. Jeez, that's
    all he did? What's wrong with these imbeciles? What's Dallas Green
    and the rest of the Mutts management doing?
    
    I think we ought to use Saberhagen and Coleman to test the "safety
    zone" of firecrackers, cherry bombs and M80's. Ya know, just how far
    away do you need to be so's you don't get injured when some jokesters
    decide to have some fun and toss these devices in the general vicinity
    of people. Just think of the humanitarian aspect of this...
    firecrackers, cherry bombs, M80's etc. can now have "officially tested"
    warnings on the labels. "Stand at least 100 ft away, etc". And I
    would go so far as showing documented pictures of Coleman and
    Saberhagen in the "after tested" mode. Really get the warning point
    across.. " This may happen to YOU if you stand closer than 100'"
    
    These men could totally change their image and help people.
    Who knows ther address of the Mets front office?
    
    MikeL
    

>    Who knows ther address of the Mets front office?
    
New York Mets
Shea Stadium
Flushing, NY 11368




It used to be in baseball that practical jokes were levelled at your
teammates -- the hot foot and things like that.  Now it is starting
to seem chic to do it reporters and even fans.

Deion dousing McCarver, Saberhagen with firecrackers.....

These guys ought to grow up.   Within the team it's one thing, which
I feel promotes team unity.  Outside of it, it's assinine....


Finally, one lawyer said the on TV last night that he couldn't imagine
the greats of the game ever doing anything like that.   From what I
understand Babe Ruth was always out to help little kids, not hurt them
with fire crackers....


'Saw    

  >> Finally, one lawyer said the on TV last night that he couldn't imagine
  >> the greats of the game ever doing anything like that.   From what I
  >> understand Babe Ruth was always out to help little kids, not hurt them
  >> with fire crackers....

     I saw/heard that guy say that. You can't compare Coleman to the greats
     of the game who by many accounts were no choirboys. If anything the to-
     day's greats (of which Coleman is not one) are better behaved than the
     old-timers because of the pervasiveness of the media.  What Coleman did
     stands on its own as an act of supreme idiocy.

    I personally have no problem with players nailing members of the media. 
    In fact, the thought of Saberhagen (if it was him) nailing one_a_them
    obnoxious, arrogant, self-important New Yawk media nerds' navy blue
    blazer with bleach is actually pretty dog-gawned funny.  When Deion
    dumped McCarver I was flat-out rolling in tears!  
    
    Gone are the days when the players used to be the stars.  Now during
    rain delays instead of highlight films of bygone stars we get to see
    the highlight reel from (I'm not making this up) ....
    
    Vin Skully.
    
    Yup, Vin was the only kid in his elementary school who wanted to become
    a sports broadcaster when he grew up.  Don't that just raise the
    goosebumps!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

In the old days the relationships between players and sportwriters was
different than it was today.  Sportswriters then (some of whom were far
better literary men than many sportswriters today) had the kind of
relationship with the players where they'd exercise some common sense
in what they printed.   

This let the players know that they did have a sense (somewhat) of
privacy.   Take for instance the case where one of the ballplayers
in the late 30s who went on a tour of Japan was actually a spy for
the US.  I'm sure that sportswriters of the day would have kept that
under their hat....nowadays I'm not so sure....

My personal opinion is that it takes more talent to be a sportswriter than
a sportscaster, and that there are very few sportscasters who are any good.
There are some, but on the whole......



As to comparing Coleman to the greats of the game -- no comparison at all.

There's no doubt that Ruth and others had their vices.  I'm sure that
Ruth socked many of his 714 with a hangover so bad it's a wonder he
could see the pitch.   

But I still think there is a difference between what a player of today
would do and a player of back then would do.....


Coleman did something totally stupid, and should suffer whatever consequences
the authorities see fit to impose.


'Saw

    Saw,  I believe you're referring to Moe Berg, a catcher with the Sox.  
    
    He spoke 11 languages, and was a covert member of the OSS.
    
    Tommie, how do you REALLY feel about Saberhagen and Coleman?  :*)
    I agree with you, they are a couple of fools in men's clothing.
    At a point in life, one has to start realizing that "pranks" can cause
    physical harm to people.  The firecracker should be pretty evident.
    In the case of the bleach, hitting someone in the eye could cause
    permanent damage.  They both acted like a couple of children, and
    should treated as such.  A public spanking is in order.  With a 36 oz.
    bat.
    
    Lee

    	My understanding of the Mets equivalent of the "Nixon Checkers'
    Speech" was that while Vince apologized he still doesn't admit to
    throwing the firecracker because if the LA Fire Department decides he
    threw an explosive he will fight the charges, but if they decide to
    push a lesser charge he will try to settle out of court with anybody
    who is filing suit.
                                                                       
    				/Don

The baseball column in yesterday's paper questioned Saberhagen's antics
with the bleach and the reporters, and asked

	What's next?  An appearance by Saberhagen in a Beavis and
	Butt-head video?

Saberhagen's picture appeared, beneath that was a picture of Beavis, and
beneath Beavis' picture was Butt-head.


Personally, I'm shocked at the slur on Beavis and Butt-head's character
by associating them with Saberhagen!


pretty po'd!

'Saw

    someone compared antics of players today vs media with yesterday.  I
    think it was pretty much accepted that you didn't mess with the press
    because of the job they could do on you in print - exhibit .-1
    
    Didn't Robert Parker have an antagonistic press player angle in one of
    his first Spenser novels?  The understanding was that the player was at
    the mercy of the veteran scribe which I thought was an exaggeration but
    to deliberately antagonize a reporter seems foolish.
    
    Of course those redsox who give the best copy (Clemens and Greenwell)
    also seem to have been favorite targets so perhaps players feel they
    have nothing to lose.   And McCarver hounded Sander's from his color
    postion during the rest of the postseason after the shower.
    
    b

Actually I thought McCarver was very fair about the play of Deon after the
shower. He could have really basted him repeatedly on TV but chose instead to
focus on the games being played and rarely mentioned Neon outside of the scope
of the game.


Metz

    I recall the game after the incident McCarver being over critical of
    Sanders.  The criticism was legitimate but may have not been mentioned
    if Deion hadn't acted stupid.  It may have been a baserunning error.
    
    b

    On my drive to and from Baltimore this weekend for the Sox-O's series
    the New York radio airwaves were filled with Mets' and ex-Mets' fans 
    describing how sincerely embarrassed and ashamed they were to be 
    rooters of this morally bankrupt team, as well as condemnations of the 
    spineless, gutless organization that the Mets' front office has become.  
    Since TCM no longer lives in New York, I think we should all encourage
    the use of this forum as an inadequate but modest confessional for him
    to cleanse his soul.  No thanks necessary, TCM...   
    
    Best comment I heard all weekend from a host on WFAN:  when is this 
    ballclub finally going clear the clubhouse of its cancers and do what 
    the *Boston Red Sox* have done in putting together a hard-working, 
    likeable team!
    
    glenn
    

   re. McCarver and the Neon Peon

   I remember this pretty much the same as Metz. In fact, I can remember
   being kind of impressed with the way McCarver put aside his personal 
   feelings and praised Deion when it was deserved. I don't know that I
   could have been as gracious.
    

I like McCarver as a broadcaster.  I've learned a lot of baseball from
listening to him.

Even if he had been a bit over-critical, which I don't think he was,
it would only be human nature.  

We sometimes lose sight of that I think.....


'Saw

    I am also fond of McCarver and liked him as a ballplayer and since my
    cousin Joe Gergen wrote it and an uncle of mine sends me everything Joe
    writes I've read his biography (amazing sentence this last - you have
    to be there).
    
    But I was looking for hyper-criticality from McC on Deion and thought I
    saw it but I am glad others didn't see it that way.
    
    The McCarver bio is practically a Gibson bio since his interraction
    with BG is the most colorful part.

    Glenn,
    
    I am touched that your are so thoughtful of others. Truly something
    special to read after being away for a few days.
    
    Now, would some one please clue me in on this Saberhagen thing - the
    bleach, I know about his firecracker incident.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Late news last night said the Vince "The Demolition Man" Coleman was
charged by authorities in LA with Unlawful Possession of an Explosive Device.
It's a felony charge.


'Saw

    A day or two after the firecracker - now M80 size + - someone
    sprayed reporters with bleach.  I don't think that they know
    who did it.
    
    Mike

    Yeah, it's amazing that this "firecracker" has gone from a cherry bomb
    to an M80 to an "explosive device" with several times the destructive
    force of an M80.  It can now be said that what Coleman did with "no 
    intent to harm anyone" could have quite literally killed someone, under 
    the right circumstances.  At this point I have to seriously question
    the man's mental stability.  Given what we've already heard about these
    prior incidents including Coleman being detained at the airport with
    fireworks, I'm wondering if the guy might be some kind of pyromaniac
    with a fixation on explosives or something.  Seriously.  This is that 
    far out there.
    
    glenn
      

Pyromania is a weird thing.

We learned a bit about it when I was in the fire dept.  We had (still do 
I believe) a bona fide, criminally insane arsonist living in the town.

It's a sickness, definitely, but the worst thing is that it is a sickness
which can be very detrimental to other people...

'Saw

    
    Take it easy on poor Vince.  Pyromania is a disease, which he may not
    have control over.  It's not like the guy is an admitted wife beater,
    or sumfin.
    
    brews

>    
>    Take it easy on poor Vince.  Pyromania is a disease, which he may not
>    have control over.  It's not like the guy is an admitted wife beater,
>    or sumfin.
    
No doubt, if it is pyromania, that he has no control.  However, firefighters
have a pretty dim view of them folks, even if they are sick....

'Saw

According to the article I read in the paper, the "firecracker" Coleman threw
was equivalent to a 1/4 stick of dynamite.

If I owned the Mets, I'd drop him off the roster and not pay him a cent.  
Let him take me to court to get the money out of me.

t

    
    I heard that an M80 has several grains of explosive, what he used had
    200-300 grains. Not something to be fooling around with.
    
    brews 

    
  >> Take it easy on poor Vince.  Pyromania is a disease, which he may not
  >> have control over.  It's not like the guy is an admitted wife beater,
  >> or sumfin.
    
     Brews, I take it your referring to Dallas Green's remark made in June
     that has a feminist group up in arms. Apparently, (for those who don't
     know) Grren said he copes with the Mets losing by beating his wife. A
     real class organization that you're a fan of there, TCM. 

    
    Oh Tommy you are so sly.  8^)
    
    Seriously, has there ever been a sports franchise in such miserable
    shape as the Mets are right now?  Even the A's of Finley's day were
    halfway respectable on the field, and weren't the subject of a daily 
    new off field embarassment.  It's been an incredible season for them.
    
    brews 

To quote Keith Obermann on last nights SportsCenter "and now for the daily
polic blotter, also known as the New York Mets."

Yeah it has been a tough year, but REAL fans take the bad with the good.

The Crazy Met

  Think we could have a "Pick The Next Mets Headline Contest"?

    Has anyone, in any paper, speculated on what Coleman may have been on
    that might have caused this behavior?
    
    Lee_for_you_know_who

re:.128

No speculation about alcohol, drugs, etc; mere idiocy can sometimes be
sufficient.

re:.127

That might be more appropriate for the Ask JaKe note.

The Crazy Met

I just heard that the Grucci's have offered Coleman a job if the
Mets release him.....

    I've noticed that the quarter sticks seem to be the new craze in
    fireworks; I have a neighbor who is fascinated with this junk and
    spending all sorts of $bucks on it.  At least he knows what it is and
    sets them off far away.
    
    although it doesn't change culpability I have to guess that ol' vinnie
    didn't know what he was doing.
    
    Now does a cool million to victims merit a reduced sentence ?  I would
    say let the victims decide?  But Vinnie needs a long period of
    counseling before he ever steps foot on a diamond again.  So does my
    neighbor.
    
    b

	re: Coleman explosive incident


	Is there a grassy knoll any where near where this happened?




	billl

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 32.212                *PITTSBURGH STEELERS NOTE*                 212 of 212
ACESMK::FRANCUS "Mets in '93"                        10 lines   9-AUG-1993 22:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Folks say this a few times and you'll feel much better:
    
    "it just doesn't matter"
    "it just doesn't matter"
    "it just doesn't matter"
    
    You should have the idea by now.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Found on USENET (slightly dated, but I hadn't seen it before):
    
    "Bret Saberhagen's actions are more a result of bad reading         
     comprehension than any malicious intent. He read in the            
     local papers that the Royals went on a winning streak after Hal    
     McRae 'blew up at the media'. Saberhagen simply skipped over the   
     word 'at'."                                                        
    
    Joe

    Any more on Saberhagen himself blowing up in the clubhouse?

    Heard he did it because the MEts' internal investigation found he was
    the guy who shot the bleach at the reporters, and that he was gonna
    have to face his punishment like a man (something heretofor unknown on
    the out of control MEts team).  He admitted to it yesterday.
    
    brews

 Yup, today's Globe says Saberhagen is gonna have to pony up one day's
 pay (approx. $15,000) to the charity of choice of the New York BB Writer's
 Assoc. and he will face suspension after he gets off the DL.

    
    AND on another front.....
    
    Mr. "Firecracker" Coleman was indicted/changed/somethingorother on a
    felony for tossing (as I heard it broadcast) a M-80 from the car.
    
    I remain,
    wondering what wudda happened if he dropped it on the carfloor and it
    'spolded?
    Kev
    

thats a start. they're still being too easy on him.

Imus in the morning: "Saberhagen was identified as the player who sprayed
bleach at the writers; also Coleman is turning himself over to authorities
in LA. 2 events that are marring an otherwise successful Mets season." Radio
in NY is getting more vicious than I remember in a while.

The Crazy Met

>>>	2 events that are marring an otherwise successful Mets season.

	What's wrong with this picture?????



	billl

You had to hear it - real heavy saracasm.

The Crazy Met

    Da hallunogenic 'schrooms must be going bad, billl
    
    
    hth
    
    I remain,
    wondering if da sawmain's gonna brew up a new batch sooM?
    Kev_for_dInZ
    

well waddya expect of a Pitt fan??

The Crazy Met

    
    So, can we now safely assume that Bret Saberhagen is a scoundrel, a
    baby, *and* a liar?  If he'd just stuck with the first offense, he
    might still have a few fans left in the world, like Chris Knorr...
    
    glenn
    

    >Radio in NY is getting more vicious than I remember in a while.
    
    
    Too much time spent hanging out with the MEts, perhaps?
    
    brews

re:.145

yeah that pretty much sums it up.

Even Coleman didn't blatantly lie - and lets face it what Coleman did
was much more serious.

The Crazy Met

    
>>Even Coleman didn't blatantly lie - and lets face it what Coleman did
>>was much more serious.
    
    NOw, how could COleman "blatanlty lie" anyways after Eric Davis
    snitched on him about 3 microseconds after the incident anyways??
    
    JaKe
    

JaKe your trust in people amazes me :-) Coleman could have still denied it.

The Crazy Met

	Hey Craze, ain't it about time you adjust that ludicrous p-name
	a yours insteada pi$$in' all over dem po Red Sox fans' parade.


	billl

tragic number for the p_name bet with Chappy - which was agreed to in
the YANKEES notesfile, not here, is about 25.

tragic number for Mets to be eliminated is closer to 20. 

So you'll see the Mets in '94 p_name before it has to change to something
else.

The Crazy Met

    Nothing said on Anus in the Morning surprises me.
    
    Lee

>    Nothing said on Anus in the Morning surprises me.
    
Is he back on the air?  He was in the hospital about a week ago and
they were going to be running "Best of" shows while he was recovering.

I'll listen to Imus any time....his guests are provacative and the show
is pretty informative....


'Saw

Imus was on even from the hospital but not for the whole show.
Yup he is back on the air.

The Crazy Met

	That magic number fer da Mets is 10.



	billl

    I wish TCM were around so's I could thank him personally for
    giving the thumbs up to Imus in the AM.
    
    Heard on Imus this AM as I was drivin' " And with the Phillies loss
    to the Rockies last night,, the new magic number for the Mets is
    76. Any combination of 76, wins by the Mets or losses by the Phillies
    will enable the Mets to win their first NL east crown since 1988.".
    
    
    HAHAHAHA. 
    
    MikeL
    

MikeL,

your welcome.

The Crazy Met

    
    
      Sure you got time to be in Sports While I'm drafting for ya.
    
    Why you little fu,&^%&& As&^^%^
    
    Chappy

    Another brilliantly inept display by the Mets in losing both games of a
    DH to Colorado. If the Mets are still mathematically alive in September
    I will be surprised.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

      Might as well put your calculator away now TCM.  Mathmatics won't
    help teams at the bottom of their divisions.
    
      HTH,
    
      Tim

    
    I doubt that the MEts have even a mathematical chance.  They may have a
    chance of catching the Phillies, but to do so, another team (St. Louis)
    would likely have win a few games that would eliminate the MEts.
    
    brews 

	Hey, TCM, that time of year you look forward to most is quickly
	approaching!  Guess that kinda 'splains your quiteness in here 
	of late.

	The bad news is that the Buccos will be done right about the same
	as the Mets this year.  (I know, it's all a matter of opinion.)


	billl

    
    Where's TCM?

 Ha!

    
    
    
             He must be getting his ne P_name ready.
    
    
    Chap

    See ::NYMETS note 253 - about 1AM last night
    see ::baseball note 16(I think) abotu 1AM last night.
    
    p_name has changed, but you've seen that already. See I don't
    have to use whatever abomination Chappy will come up with
    for my p_name for a while. Not sure what the commotion is all
    about.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Mets get no-hit by Daryl Kile of Houston, Mets actually score a run in
    the process.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    couldn't happen to a more deserving club, the Mucking Fets getting
    no-hit, that is.
    
    JaKe
    

    
            Hey  TCW
    
        METS lose 100  BaHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHH
    
    
            
    
    
                    Chappy

Mets lose 100. Anyone know which was the last team to lose 110 in
a season? It is unlikely, but the Mets could still attain that 
dubious mark.

The Crazy Met

and Chappy, 'ya lost that argument about 2 weeks ago.

Kev, Thanks for that p_name suggestion. I jus' love seeing 
Yankee fans in such a tizzy.

    
    
    
        I didn't lose no argument TCW. Your only 3 friends in the world
    came to your aid but that means squat.
    
    
      If you can't pay up like a man you say you are, just make bets with
    the little boys for Candy.
    
    
    Chappy

    Mucking Fets lost over 100 last in 1967.
    
    Don't know who lost 110, I think the Bucs lost 103 a few years back,
    but cain't pinpoint the year.
    
    JaKe
    

Bucs lost 100+ in 1986.

The Crazy Met

    It makes is so nice to know that it was the Bucs that handed the
    Mucking Fets their 100th loss lasted night.  Couldn't happen to a
    better bunch of f_ck ups that the Mucking Fets.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
       Me thinks he feels the Mets Suck.
    
    
    
    

Agreed with Chappy on this one: This year the Mets suck big time!

The Crazy Met

    
>>Agreed with Chappy on this one: This year the Mets suck big time!
    
    And lasted year, and next year, or TC(insert snappy initial here), do
    you think the Mucking Fets are suddenly going to turn into a bunch of
    choirboys and WINNERS in the course of one winter.
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
    
    Mucking Fets will finish 15+ gmaes below .500 nexted year, and then
    they'll hire Vince Coleman to manage, and to set up the fireworks
    nights.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    Firework nights  BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH   Rollward....
    
    
    TCW is just trying to. EASE HIS PAIN.
    
    
    Chappy

    Unlikely the Mets will be all that good next year, but thats baseball,
    or any tema sport for that matter. Teams go through highs and lows.
    
    Coleman and fireworks nights - I got a chuckle out of that one.
    
    Real nice to see the Yankee fans feeling the pain after their team
    teased and tantalized them all season long; heh heh heh.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    
       Better to be teased and Tantalized than to be spit on and fireworks
    thrown in your face.
    
    
    
    Chappy

> Kinda like the Mets fans trying to ease their pain by watching the
> Yanks slowly fall out of the pennant race.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!

The Crazy Met

    
    I'll try to contain myself and not harass you too much TCM of the fact
    that the Mucking Fets are most probably going to finish BEHIND both
    expansion teams
    
    ***NOT*****
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    What a sorry bunch of fire craker throwing, bleach spraying low
    lifes...Although they DO fit right in with the inhabitants of the city
    that the team calls home, New Yuck, NY.
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    What happens to them nexted year, TCM, do they hire the Rockettes and
    try to dance their way to the pennant????  They'll probably hire
    another nobody...er...make that "babysitter" with all the immature
    jerks they employ under the guise of players, and they'll end up
    something like 38-124 and I'll be in my glory.
    
    Have a nice day
    
    JaKe
    

    yup, it has been a real tough year. But real fans grit it out and wait
    for things to get better; I mean JaKe you were presumably a Pirates fan
    in 1986 when they lost more than 100 games.
    
    Not sure what the Mets will look like next year. My guess is they will
    go with a bunch of the younger players and keep some veterans like
    Gooden, Saberhagen, maybe Fernandez, Bonilla; also Gallagher, and Orsulak
    will likely be around. I hope they do not go after players like Will Clark,
    he wouldn't survive in NY more than a month. It is likely that .500
    next year will be a pleasant surprise.
    
    For the Mets not to finish with the worst record in baseball would take
    a minor miracle, but that has been the case for a large part of the
    season.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

				Top 10
			  New York Mets Excuses
			  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

10. All those empty seats are distracting.

 9. Part of a grand plan to make Florida Marlins overconfident next year.

 8. Pitchers on other teams throw the ball really fast!

 7. Two Words:
    Guaranteed Contracts

 6. Mistake to let Don Knotts bat cleanup.
    (Complete with disgruntled Don Knotts sitting in the audience)

 5. Play so much golf during the season, thought lowest score wins.

 4. Baseballs harder to throw than explosives.

 3. Drank slurpee too fast; Got a "brain-freeze"
    (Complete with Don Knotts drinking slurpee in audience, gets mad,
     stomps out)

 2. Didn't scratch themselves enough.

 1. No one named "Mookie"

Season is thankfully over. Mets couldn't even do pathetic properly. They
have no winning streaks longer than 3 games; then they go blow it by winning
their last 6 in a row.

The Crazy Met

      They helped the rockies get a better expansion record than florida...

what was the Mets record agains the expansion teams??

They won 4 of 5 to start against the Rockies but then got swept late in
the season in Colorado. Can someone post the records of Mets vs Rockies
and Mets vs. Marlins??

The Crazy Met

    -1,
    How the mighty have fallen. Graspin' for solace in W/L vs expansion
    teams..
    
    Tsk Tsk there Craze
    
    MikeL
    

    Mets were 6-6 against Rockies and 9-4 vs Florida. The only other season
    series they didn't lose was to the Reds(6-6).

MikeL you will notice I did not start the topic. More curiosity than
anything else.

The Crazy Met

    What is the #1 way you can tell you are on a bad date?
    
    You find yourself at Shea Stadium watching a Mets game.

Nah Mac, what you meant was you're at Foxboro watching the Pats play.

The Crazy Met

	I think Mac's definition hit the nail on the head.

	re Pats:
	I seem to recall seeing you at a Pats game there TCM.  I didn't even
	notice the rope burns on you from being dragged into Foxboro.

	billl

    Pats are admittedly rebuilding.  Mets are allegedly a dynasty.

Mets were allegedly a dynsaty - lots of unfulfilled potential in the 1985-1989
team.

The Crazy Met

Mac-on paper they were the best team in baseball for much of that time. They
did not win WS's and therefore were not a dynasty. You seem to be in 
permanent confused mode today; yeah I know so what else is new.

The Crazy Met

      The PAts have been re-building for the last 6-8 years...

    
    
         Mets sign Luis Rivera....
    
    Parade in March!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Chappy

ack!

Chappy, doesn't that mean that your rotis team gets first shot at him. heh!

The Crazy Met

    
    
        Nope come the 24th the Mets are back in limbo!!!!
    
    
    Chap

24th?? what happens then?

The Crazy Met

    
    
        I get a new Affiliate. Cuz da Mets SUCK!!!!
    
    
    
    Chappy

Met's broadcaster Bob Murphy won the Ford Frick Award yesterday, along with
the induction to the Broadcast section of the Hall of Fame that goes with it.

Murhpy has been a Mets broadcaster since the team started in 1962.  Prior
to that he had worked for the Red Sox and Orioles....


'Saw

    Yeah I grew up listening to Murphy. He went through a blah spell when
    he first moved to doing only radio (he, Kiner, Lindsey Nelson used to
    shift between TV and radio). But he really started getting it back
    after the first 2 years or so. A deserving honoree.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>>Murhpy has been a Mets broadcaster since the team started in 1962.  Prior
    
    Talk about being a glutton fer punishment!!!
    
    JaKe
    

>    Talk about being a glutton fer punishment!!!
    
On the contrary.  I think there is a certain angst that goes along with
being a Mets fan -- not quite the angst that is associated with the
Red Sox fans, but surely, those early years must have been very trying
and almost comical in some aspects.

For the most part since 1969, though, I think the Mets have fielded enough
comptetive teams to make it interesting....

'Saw

PS  I'm tempted to go back out to the HOF this year.  Last year, the
    Hall where the players plaques were was under renovation.....    

> For the most part since 1969, though, I think the Mets have fielded enough
> comptetive teams to make it interesting....
    
    Actually, 1969 and 1973 were the only times that the Mets really
    competed until 1984.  The rest of the time, especially the late
    70's, they were pretty bad.
    
    It wasn't so bad then, because as fans, we didn't expect anything
    from them.  It's tougher now because they had a level of success for
    a few years, and it looks like it is going to be a while before they
    get back.
    
    Mike

>    Actually, 1969 and 1973 were the only times that the Mets really
>    competed until 1984.  The rest of the time, especially the late
>    70's, they were pretty bad.
    
Oh, I'd forgotten about that.  I was mostly concerned with the Red Sox
during those years.....


'Saw

yup 1992 and 1993 were trying. All teams go through some down times.
1992 and 1993 were likely far more trying than the early years. 7 bad
years for an expansion team is not totally unexpected.


re: a few back - small nit

Mets were competitive in 1970 and maybe 1971 (don't quite remember though).

The Crazy Met

    The 1970 team was in the race until the end. 1971 was a Buc blowout.
    1972 team was in first until June when injuries to Staub and Koosman
    among others messed things up.
    
    The 1975 team finished 10 games above .500 and was in the race until
    early September.

1981 team (strike season) was close until St. Louis swept them in a 3
game series in late August(?) and then they went down hill very fast.

The Crazy Met

    
    
    Quick an alltime worse team!!!
    
    He He
    
    
    Chappy

    
    >>Quick an alltime worse team!!!
    
    Just insert last years roster in here.
    
    Vince Coleman gets the best arm when it comes to explosives, though. 
    New Yuck will probably HONOR him during a fireworks night this year if
    he's playing anywhere in the NL.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

Marvelous Marv was the worst 1B they ever had.

The Crazy Met

    
>>Marvelous Marv was the worst 1B they ever had.
    
    When did Hagler play fer NY?????
    
    JaKe
    

    Fat chance of him being in Shea Stadium this year, unless he attends a
    game there while KC is playing the YankMe's.  And then, he'd probably
    be firing M-80's outta the upeer deck and hit a pregnant lady er
    sumthin like that.
    
    Speakin a which, I was at a Pirate game about 10 years ago where some
    brain-dead a$$hole threw an M-80(mighta been a young Vince Coleman) and
    it landed right beside a pregnant lady, went off, and she required
    medical attention, and an ambulance ride.  Before they was ready to
    take her out, the PA announcer said if anybody could point out the
    person who threw the thang, they'd be awful grateful.  About 40 people
    stood up, and all pointed at the same jerk.  He tried to exit the
    section he was in to avoid the rapidly approaching security peoples,
    and about 10 people blocked his exit and made sure the stadium security
    got him.  Everybody was paying attention to this incident instead of
    watching the game, and the peoples who helped nab the jerk got a huge
    cheer from the whole joint(probably about 3200 people in them days).
    
    JaKe
    

    the over/under for Mets' wins in '94 is 74 wins.

    They might make it unless they deal Bonilla and Saberhagen for 
    prospects.  If they deal, take the under.
    
    Getting used to rebuilding,
    Mike

Yeah with the team the Mets have they could win 74, with a little bit of luck
maybe be a bit closer to .500.

After what went on last season, 1994 can only be better (I hope!)

The Crazy Met

    Saberhagen's been suspended by the team for 5 games.  Guess that means
    he's staying put.
    

    I thought the same thing.  Any rule against trading a suspended
    player, even if he was only suspended by his club, not the league?
    
    I think the Mets may hold on to Bobby and Bret and try to swing
    a deal with a contender during the season.
    
    Mike

    
    Hey TCM, are the Mets in denial or something?  Greg Olson, Luis Rivera,
    Bob Kipper, Kevin McReynolds, Glenn Davis?  Glenn Davis?  They've
    gotten rid of some major cancers but it looks like they're having great
    success at finding adequate replacements for the whirlpool baths and 
    disabled lists...
    
    glenn
    

    Most of the players the Mets have picked up are place holders until
    the farm system can produce some prospects.  The Mets don't really
    have anyone who can step up from Triple A and produce.
    
    McReynolds was picked up so the Mets could save face and get something
    for Mr. M-80.  If he can hit at all, look for him to be dealt to a
    contender.  If not, he'll be gone after the year.
    
    Mike

    SI (from my dr.'s office collection) had an article tracking the demise
    of the mets.  Reminds me of the Sox 46-51 contenders then a.l. cannon
    fodder in 52-66.

yup saw that article and agreed with lots of it. it was a few weeks back.

The Crazy Met

    Who were those guys they were throwing out in centerfield: Juan Samuel,
    Howard Johnson and then they whine 'cause viola doesn't win 30/year .
    
    Green was quoted as saying "back to defense".  So there is hope.
    
    What a farm system, what a tragedy.
    
    They may be rootable next year with the "buotofuocos" (did you catch
    that quote in the article?) gone.

    Couldn't happen to a nicer franchise (except maybe the Yankees).

    Mac is still upset about 1986. Guess when your team chokes, chokes, and
    chokes again 'ya gotta find consolation in another teams misery.
    
    1918! 1918! 1918!
    
    The Crazy Met
    

	Gooden suspended for 60 days for violation of his drug program

	Kevin

    They wouldn't confirm if he failed a drug test or refused to take one
    or ?????
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Back to the hoping for miracles p_name.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    That Bonilla is a class act, ain't he!

|    That Bonilla is a class act, ain't he!

What did he do now?

    
    
       He said any scabs will be found in the east River!!

yeah, I heard abous this.

Seems ol' Bobby, along with fellow Metster, John Franco, "threatened"
fellow union members with cement gollashes ifn' they break ranks and try
to play during the strike (assuming that it continues into nexted
season).

Do you think Bobby knows that he's losing more than anyone else is?

TTom

    
    Who'd have ever thought that it'd be someone from the New York Mets 
    to first use threats of violence?
    
    Still waiting for TCM's call for an unqualified disbanding of the
    franchise...
    
    
    glenn
    

    >> Who'd have ever thought that it'd be someone from the New York Mets 
    >> to first use threats of violence?
    
    >> Still waiting for TCM's call for an unqualified disbanding of the
    >> franchise...
    
       Ease up on TCM, he is still mad that the Mets signed the wrong BB
    from the Pirates. 8^)
    
    

 What I want to know is who let TCM vote on the AP? On the AP all-star
 MLB team cross league Brent Saberhagen received one vote for best
 right handed pitcher robbing Maddux of an unanimous vote........

 the rest of the team as I remember

	lefty pitcher  	Jimmy Keys
	releiever	Lee Smith
	ist		?????
	2nd		Carlos Bagerra
	ss		Cal Rypien
	3rd		Matt Williams
	out		Ken Griffey
	out		Albert  Belle
        out		????
        catcher		????

 I know Bagwell made it but I'll be damed if I remember his posistion...

 mike

    In your dreams Glenn. I'm still waiting for that comment you
    owe about Clemens getting tossed out of that playoff game.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Re .244
    
	1st		Jeff Bagwell
        out		Tony Gwynn
        catcher		Ivan Rodriguez
    
    Including Baerga, but not Lofton, was rather Silly...
    
    Joe

    
    
    I'll give you that Lofton is the best leadoff hitter in baseball.  I
    agree 100%.  But to put him in CF over Griffey would be a joke.
    
    Jerry

    
>    I'll give you that Lofton is the best leadoff hitter in baseball.  I
>    agree 100%.  But to put him in CF over Griffey would be a joke.
    
    I disagree.
    
    Lofton had a .533 SLG, and a .412 OBP.  He was 58/69 on stolen bases.
    
    Griffey had a .662 SLG, and a .393 OBP.  He was 11/14 on stolen bases.
    
    Griffey's defense has improved, in recent years, to the point that
    his lack of speed in CF doesn't hurt significantly; he's an average
    fielder.
    
    Lofton's defense has been worth, by one statistical count, 30 runs
    a year as compared to the average CF.
    
    Add it all up, and Lofton was more valuable than Griffey, and possibly
    more valuable than either Belle or Thomas...
    
    Joe

    
    ...not that I'd kick Griffey out of my outfield...
    
    Joe

    Can anyone tell me what the Mets are thinking?
    
    First, they trade their best upper-level OF prospect (Burnitz),
    and a decent young pitcher for three older, mid-level prospects.
    
    Then, they trade something for Harnsich, despite the fact that
    he might be a free agent (OK, this one isn't a bad move per se).
    
    Now they deal Quivilo Veras to the Fish for pseudo-prospect Carl
    Everett.
    
    Overall, it seems to hurt the team somewhat; more interestingly,
    it doesn't seem to make any sense.
    
    Joe

Wish I could tell you what the Mets are thinking. The Veras trade will
much too likely come back and haunt them. The Harnisch trade was not
a bad idea, depending which Harnisch shows up.

The Crazy Met

I was at the commissioning of the USS Hartford (SSN 768) on Saturday, and
one of the speakers was the Mayor of Hartford, Mike Peters.

Peters spoke, and a little later in the ceremony, the commanding officer
of the Hartford, Cdr. George Kasten, gave a speech.  To start his speech
he related the following story:


	A couple of weeks ago, Mayor Peters was allowed to go out
	on the boat for a tour and submerged exercise in the Long
	Island Sound.

	One of the fire control technicians was given a demostration
	when Peters took over the controls, reset the destination of
	the Tomahawk missile to New York City, simulated the launch,
	and then announced that since he had just destroyed Shea
	Stadium, the Mets would have to come and play in Hartford.

To the best of my knowledge, Peters is a Mets fan.

Anyway, hearing that story, all I could think of was TCM and the shock
he'd have felt if Peters really did that......


'Saw

> Anyway, hearing that story, all I could think of was TCM and the shock
> he'd have felt if Peters really did that......
    
    Not nearly the shock that you and the rest of Hartford would experience
    in having to control that threat to society then to be known as the 
    Conn. ('victed) Mets.  Latest revelation is that the Strawmain and 
    Hojo may be headed to the big house for their former misdeeds of
    ripping off poor innocent New York schoolchildren and failing to come
    clean with the IRS...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Why are people so awed by Ochoa?  He hasn't hit yet.  Yes, he could
    develop into a major league hitter, and his defense should be a plus -
    but playing in Shea, his offensive numbers could be really, really
    awful.  Buford's a 4th or 5th OF.
    
    Joe

The Mets' Asst GM says they're building speed and defense around their
young, promising pitching staff.  But you're right JoeH, there's no
power, and neither Ochoa nor Buford brings it.

    I caught some of the Mets games with the Dodgers. Their rookie SS
    Ordonez is the closest thing to a young Ozzie Smith that I've seen.
    This kid is going to take New York by storm if he keeps it up. 
    New Yorkers could be debating Jeter vs Ordonez like they use to debate
    Mays and Mantle. 
    
    Mike 

    
    Mike,
    
>    I caught some of the Mets games with the Dodgers. Their rookie SS
>    Ordonez is the closest thing to a young Ozzie Smith that I've seen.
>    This kid is going to take New York by storm if he keeps it up. 
>    New Yorkers could be debating Jeter vs Ordonez like they use to debate
>    Mays and Mantle. 
    
    Not to take anything away from Ordonez, but the young player on the
    Mets whom I find really interesting in Edgardo Alfonzo.  Ordonez can't
    hit (he'll have to learn how, as Smith did, to be the next Ozzie
    Smith), and Alfonzo can, but the _really_ interesting comparison is
    between their fielding.  Both played the same position (SS), for the
    same team (Binghamton), in the same year.  The numbers...
    
         Games  Chances accepted        Chances per game
    Alfonzo    78           395             5.06
    Ordonez    48           196             4.08
    
    Alfonzo had the same numbers in his previous two stops in the minors,
    is two years younger, and turned half again as many double plays per 
    game.
    
    But Ordonez looks good, and makes fewer errors, so Alfonzo gets moved.
    
    If it's my money, Ordonez stays in the minors until he learns to hit...
    
    Joe    

    Good point Joe. This whole Mets team reminds me so much of the 68-69
    Mets. Their piching staff in 3 years could be better then the Braves.
    Their young players have looked pretty good. This is just another team
    that has done it right by rebuilding through development. This year or
    next though they are going to need one or 2 big sticks to get to the
    next level.
    
    Mike

    I disagree entirely Joe.  If the Mets are trying to build a pitching
    staff they need the very best shortstop they can get, regardless of
    hitting.  Of course that won't do them any good without a second
    baseman and they probably don't want to bid Alicea.
    
    

    
>    I disagree entirely Joe.  If the Mets are trying to build a pitching
>    staff they need the very best shortstop they can get, regardless of
>    hitting.  Of course that won't do them any good without a second
>    baseman and they probably don't want to bid Alicea.
    
    My point was that Alfonzo might _be_ the best shortstop they can get
    _defensively_.  For the same team in the same year, Alfonzo was making
    one additional play per game; what more do you want a shortstop to do?
    
    Joe

    I thought you said don't play Ordonez until he hits better.  Naturally
    I'd go with the better fielding shortstop.  But that's still subjective
    despite the stats.  If someone who knows what he's looking at is
    watching they can tell whether he's doing it or not.

    
>    I thought you said don't play Ordonez until he hits better.
    
    I did.  If Ordonez starts hitting, then I play _both_ of them in
    the majors.  If he doesn't, I only play Alfonzo.
    
>    Naturally
>    I'd go with the better fielding shortstop.  But that's still subjective
>    despite the stats.  If someone who knows what he's looking at is
>    watching they can tell whether he's doing it or not.
    
    OK, please explain this one to me:
    
    How can a SS who makes more plays _possibly_ be better than one who
    makes fewer?
    
    There's lots of defensive stats which I'd agree are entirely arguable.
    But why should we believe the eye (which is most impressed by flashy
    plays) over the stats in this case?
    
    Joe

    
>    There's lots of defensive stats which I'd agree are entirely arguable.
>    But why should we believe the eye (which is most impressed by flashy
>    plays) over the stats in this case?
 
    Limited sample.  Plus, Ordonez was just over from Cuba, and quite 
    likely had some adjustment problems to his team's pitching staff,
    opposing batters, etc.  At the very least, it wouldn't surprise me
    a bit that the 1 play/game difference is deceivingly larger than 
    the real longterm difference will be, if any at all.
    
    On the other hand, New York is the Hype Capital of the World, both 
    Yankees and Mets, and Ordonez may just be another .220-hitting,
    flashy Mario Mendoza (they're always talking more about these 
    incredible acrobatic plays he makes rather than the more important 
    steadiness).  Frankly, this "Next Ozzie Smith" business reeks.  At 
    least we in Boston are showing a little more restraint in calling 
    Nomar Garciaparra the "Next Mark Belanger". ;-)
    
    glenn
       
   

    
>    Limited sample.  Plus, Ordonez was just over from Cuba, and quite 
>    likely had some adjustment problems to his team's pitching staff,
>    opposing batters, etc.  At the very least, it wouldn't surprise me
>    a bit that the 1 play/game difference is deceivingly larger than 
>    the real longterm difference will be, if any at all.
    
    OK, I'll buy that.  Alfonzo's numbers have been consistently this
    good, but it's possible Ordonez's real level of ability is higher
    than what he showed in Binghamton.
    
    In any case, I can't see any reasonable argument for Ordonez being
    in the majors when the Mets already _have_ Alfonzo.
    
    Joe

Don't know squat about Ordonez, but from what I hear he may be more of a
defensive SS, whereas Jeter is CLEARLY an offensive talent 1st, and defensive
2nd.

    Unless you have two shortstops on the same team alternating with the
    same pitchers and opposing teams those stats are a very basic guide but
    nothing more.  I would ask the question:  If you have both in camp and
    can actually watch both why would you even look at the stats.  The
    stats may have guided you into wanting to look in the first place but
    you can tell the range and the positioning is going to come from the
    Met's defensive philosophy and types of pitchers.

    
>    Unless you have two shortstops on the same team alternating with the
>    same pitchers and opposing teams those stats are a very basic guide but
>    nothing more.
    
    But that's almost _precisely_ what we have.  Alfonzo played the first
    2/3 of the year, Ordonez the last 1/3.  While the teams they played
    probably don't work out to be precisely the same, it's likely to
    be close enough that any discrepancies introduced are minor.
    
>    I would ask the question:  If you have both in camp and
>    can actually watch both why would you even look at the stats.  The
>    stats may have guided you into wanting to look in the first place but
>    you can tell the range and the positioning is going to come from the
>    Met's defensive philosophy and types of pitchers.
    
    Because the range _isn't_ dependent upon the Mets.  A player's
    defensive range is the _most_ important element, at least at most
    defensive positions.  Watching a player defensively you're likely
    to be more impressed by flash than range; I know I am.  Who doesn't
    enjoy watching the plays of the week on This Week in Baseball?  It's
    even the one part of the show my wife enjoys.
    
    Joe

    
    OK, enough's enough.
    
    You can now put me down as a fan of the Mets.
    
    They've got to get Dallas Green out of there, though, before he
    ruins _all_ of the young pitcher's arms.
    
    Joe

    
    Go Mets, what a team.  Bring Seaver in as the pitching coach!