Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    	In what?
    
    Claybroon

Ah yes, the Pathetic 10.   Highest ranked football team was $#9.  Went
2-4 in bowls, including choking on 4 that they were favoured in.

A persusal of College Hoops finds the highest ranked team at
Number 12.

Haven't seen the Volleyball rankings, perhaps the Pathetic 10 roolz
there.

JD

    Arizona squeaked by ASU last night 91-87 here in Tempe.  ASU blew a
    13pt second half lead.
    
                   W  L   
    Arizona        5  0
    Oregon St.     4  0  - picked by PAC coaches to win the conference
    California     3  1
    UCLA           2  2
    USC            2  2
    Arizona St.    2  3
    Stanford       1  2
    Washington     1  2
    Washington St. 0  3
    Oregon         0  4

    After being picked by the PAC coaches to finish last in the conference,
    ASU has quietly taken over 2nd place halfway into the schedule. 
    They're a small team, but have a lot of offensive weapons.  They are
    2nd in the nation as a team in 3pt%.
    
    They're led by Stevin "Hedake" Smith who is:
    
    - 1st in 3ptrs pg at 4.7     (NCAA)
    - 1st in scoring at 21.1 ppg (PAC)
    - 3rd in steals at 3pg       (PAC)
    - 10th in 3pt% at 40.3%      (PAC)
    - 10th in assists at 3.9pg   (PAC)
    
    Coach Frieder, who is not known for strong coaching abilities, should
    be a lock on PAC-10 COY.  Frieder, who also coached the NBA's Gary
    Grant (LAC) and Rumeal Robinson (NJN), says Smith is one of the best
    guards he's ever had.
    
    Mike

             Conference  Overall
                   W  L   W  L
    Arizona        8  0  14  2
    Arizona St.    6  3  12  5
    Oregon St.     6  3  10  8
    Washington St. 6  3  12  6
    Washington     5  4  11  7
    California     4  4  10  6
    UCLA           4  5  14  7
    USC            4  5  11  7
    Stanford       1  8   6 15
    Oregon         0  9   7 14

    Arizona St. has won the PAC-10 Wrestling title (again!).  The Sun
    Devils are #4 in the nation and also have the winner of the NCAA
    Wrestler of the Year.  The national tournament is in Ames, Iowa (Iowa
    St.) from March 18-20.  Oregon St. was ranked #13 in the nation and
    will also be in the tournament.  
    
    ASU has the #1 ranked wrestlers in the 126 and 167 pound classes as well 
    as the #7 in the 134 class.  These 3 are also All-Americans.  Shawn 
    Charles and Ray Miller (2 #1 ranked wrestlers) are attempting to become 
    ASU's first 4-time All-Americans.
    
    Five of the 6-PAC baseball teams are ranked in the top 20: Arizona
    (5), Arizona St. (9), Stanford (10), USC (12), and UCLA (16).  Only Cal
    is unranked.  "Baseball America" calls the 6-PAC the top conference in
    the country and 25% of the periodical's top 100 college prospects for
    the 1993 draft are in the conference.  The 6-PAC has provided the
    national champion an unprecedented 22 of the last 45 times.  Since the
    conference formed in 1979, 5 different teams have won the national
    title.  
    
    Current Basketball Standings:
                   W  L  
    Arizona       13  0 
    Arizona St.    8  5 
    UCLA           8  5 
    Washington St. 7  6 
    Oregon St.     7  7 
    California     6  6 
    USC            6  7 
    Washington     6  7 
    Stanford       2  10 
    Oregon         2  12 

>    Five of the 6-PAC baseball teams are ranked in the top 20: Arizona
>    (5), Arizona St. (9), Stanford (10), USC (12), and UCLA (16).  Only Cal
>    is unranked.  "Baseball America" calls the 6-PAC the top conference in
>    the country and 25% of the periodical's top 100 college prospects for
>    the 1993 draft are in the conference.  The 6-PAC has provided the
>    national champion an unprecedented 22 of the last 45 times.  Since the
>    conference formed in 1979, 5 different teams have won the national
>    title.  


     That must be five different teams, not five different schools.
     neither USC nor UCLA have been to the CWS in that period of time.

     79: CSF      80: Arizona    81: ASU      82: Miami     83: Texas
     84: CSF      85: Miami      86: Arizona  87: Stanford  88: Stanford
     89: Wichita  90: Georgia    91: LSU      92: Pepperdine

    I checked my sources and that should've read "national bids".

	Mike!

  I would check my source again. I know for a fact the Univ. Of Texas of the SWC
has made at least 25 bids for the CWS title which does not include those of A&M 
and Arkansas.

 Cadzilla  

> I would check my source again. I know for a fact the Univ. Of Texas of the SWC
> has made at least 25 bids for the CWS title which does not include those of A&M 
> and Arkansas.
    
    I think he got the first part right; since 1947, five current Pac-10 
    schools have won 23 NCAA titles: USC 11, Arizona 6, Stanford 2, Cal 2, 
    Arizona St. 2.  In that span, successful as they have been, Texas has 
    won it all only twice.
    
    Of course the fact that Mike H's favorite school (the University of
    Spoiled Children) won almost half of all the Pac-10 NCAA titles before 
    the Arizona schools even joined the Pac does not deter him from
    capitalizing on the conference's good name, if it can enhance Arizona's
    reputation in any way... ;-)
    
    glenn
       

    ...and ASU was won a lot more than USC if you count the WAC years,
    despite only winning 2 (as much as Texas) since joining the PAC in
    1979.
    
    Forget Texas anyway, I'm talking conferences as a whole.  Nobody
    compares to the PAC in baseball (and other sports too).
    
    Mike

        
    >                 -< put that in yer pipe and smoke it >-
    >
    > ...and ASU was won a lot more than USC if you count the WAC years,
    > despite only winning 2 (as much as Texas) since joining the PAC in
    > 1979.
    
    Negative.  ASU has won four times, period (make the count I gave
    earlier Arizona 4, ASU 4-- not 6,2), and only once since they 
    joined the PAC.  They can't and never will be able to touch the 
    immortal Rod Dedeaux' record at USC.  I was counting *all* titles for
    the five schools, regardless of former conference affiliation.
    
    Aw fergit it, why don't we just say that in wrestling, baseball,
    football, you name it, the Pac-10 wins almost every title, every year,
    with the Arizona schools having the greatest influence toward those
    totals.  In the rare event that a non-Pac-10 team does manage to win 
    something, let there be a national celebration!
    
    glenn
                                                              

	My mistake my assumption was that a trip to the CWS was a bid
for the title. UT has made at least 25 trip to CWS and has won 4 not two.
If I'm not mistaken UT won the first two in 47,48 again in 75 or 76 and 83.


 Cadzilla  

	My mistake my assumption was that a trip to the CWS was a bid
for the title. UT has made at least 25 trip to CWS and has won 4 not two.
If I'm not mistaken UT won the first two in 47,48 again in 75 or 76 and 83.


 Cadzilla  

    Looks like I'll have to check the bookstore to see if they have an
    official sports almanac.

    
> 	My mistake my assumption was that a trip to the CWS was a bid
> for the title. UT has made at least 25 trip to CWS and has won 4 not two.
> If I'm not mistaken UT won the first two in 47,48 again in 75 or 76 and 83.
    
    Yep, you're right, I didn't go back far enough; Texas won two in
    1949-50 (not the first two).
    
    What, Mike, you don't believe me that ASU hasn't won all these
    dozens of wrestling amd baseball titles you've imagined?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    
              

    
    	My high school baseball team went on a road trip to Nebraska.
    	While in Omaha, we caught the champeenship game between USC
    	and ASU.  This was '78.
    
    	ASU had all the horses (Hubie Brooks at SS, Sal Bando's little
    	brother Chris, and Bob Horner at 3rd).
    
    	USC thrashed 'em.
    
    	Horner's one of the very few guys (nowadays anyway) who stepped
    	right up to the majors after college.  Didn't Reggie Jackson 
    	also go straight to the show from ASU?
    
    Claybroon

>    	Horner's one of the very few guys (nowadays anyway) who stepped
>    	right up to the majors after college.  Didn't Reggie Jackson 
>    	also go straight to the show from ASU?
    
    Yup.  Others include Rick Monday, Barry Bonds (Bobby too, I think),
    Odibe McDowell, Floyd Bannister, and many others...

    ASU will have to settle for the NIT once again.  They host Georgetown
    in the opener on Thursday night.

    Ya know I was resting post-schusshing  in WP when I heard a medley
    of Paul Revere and the Raider hits that was most satisfying. Until
    I heard the last one which wa a Mark Lindsday solo that rankled.
    About that time, I hoid that the Wildcats had pulled a Mama Cass.
    Then I put the song and the team together,"Overrated".
    
    MikeL
    

Thanks MikeL for putting some laughter in my day!

The Crazy Met

    Wasn't that a "weak sister conference" team that ELIMINATED Duke?
    
    Wasn't that a "weak sister conference" team that threw a MAJOR scare
    into Michigan?

>    Wasn't that a "weak sister conference" team that ELIMINATED Duke?
     Yes, it was.
    
>    Wasn't that a "weak sister conference" team that threw a MAJOR scare
>    into Michigan?
     Yes, it was.

See Mike that is why Cal's win was called an upset. That is why
a UCLA win would have been called an upset.

The Crazy Met

    Yeah but a weak sister conference team shouldn't even be on the same
    floor as the Big Guns of the NCAA, never mind competing with them, and
    God forbid, beating one of them.
    
    As for the Mildcats(tm), local reports state that when the Santa Clara
    upset was announced at the ASU Activity Center (last Thursday night
    during the ASU-Georgetown NIT game) the Uncontrollable Laughter beat
    the Cheers 53%-47%.
    
    Mike

Well since they let teams like Rider and Eastern Carolina in I guess
they figure they need ot let in teams from the Pac-10 as well.

The Crazy Met

    But those teams didn't beat anyone significant, if at all.  They were 
    trounced.

Lets see, Princeton lost to Georgetown by 1 point as a #16 seed; if the
ref in that game had any guts he would have called the foul on Georgetown
as time was running out and awarded Princeton 2 foul shots. Penn didn't exactly
get trounced by UMass.

One of the greates things about the NCAA tournament is that major upsets
happen every year, and near upsets occur all the time.

    Georgetown was in the NIT where everyone had a winning record.

re: .34

Mike I'm referring to the Georgetown - Princeton game in the NCAA 3 years
ago, not this years NIT.

The Crazy Met

    	From what I've heard on television, quite a few teams in the
    NIT have a "whining" record too.
    
    				/Don

    Tommy, you're correct, but folks in here claimed that Arizona built
    their record and ranking on a bunch of "Tijuana School for Wayward
    Girls"-type schools.  Under assumptions like that, Michigan and Duke
    should've blown the doors off of UCLA and Cal.
    
    Maybe the conference was a wee bit tougher than given credit for.  
    
    Mike

re: .38

That logic just doesn't work. Arizona could have indeed built a record against
a bunch of "Tijuana School for Wayward Girls"-type schools. And any one
of those schools could then have played a top team tough - it happens. It
does not prove that the teams that played above their heads are that good.

The Crazy Met

    Then the inverse of the logic doesn't work either.  Afterall, who is to
    say when and where a team plays over their head?  Cal happened to beat
    Arizona very easily in Berkley a couple weeks ago.  
    
    Mike

>> how long can upset-minded play be sustained?

For a college hoops answer see NC State in 1983 and Villanova in 1985.

The Crazy Met

    Ok so 3 weeks.  Cal shouldn't have beaten Duke then.  They've been playing
    that way longer than that.

>> Ok so 3 weeks.  Cal shouldn't have beaten Duke then.  They've been playing
>> that way longer than that.

Could also mean they were playing patsies from the Pac-10 before the NCAA
tournament and then got hot.

The Crazy Met

    I always thought Duke was a bunch of patsies.

>> I always thought Duke was a bunch of patsies.

Then that makes Cal's win even less impressive.

The Crazy Met

> I always thought Duke was a bunch of patsies.

Then that makes the rest of the field that lasted 2 years even less
impressive.

Cal has been playing well the last couple of weeks - 10 or 11 games.
Their win over Duke is an upset, however, in terms of how the teams were
seeded as well as their national ranking. FWIW, it was also a_upset in
terms of the betting public who settled for Duke as a 7 point favorite.

TTom

yeahbut...

This Duke team is not what they were earlier in the season. I think Duke
peaked at or about the time they beat Michigan. After that, the chemistry
fell off and then Grant Hill was hurt. They never returned to the early
season form.

The other thing to consider is that Duke finished 3rd in the ACC so this
isn't about the best that the ACC could offer versus a_also ran PAC10
team. Didn't Cal finish second?

Laettner was a great, if not likeable, college player. The jury is out on
how good he is in the NBA.

TTom

Laettner could be Duke's latest version of Danny Ferry. heh heh.

The Crazy Met

    TCM, we agree again.  Shaq should've went to Barcelona.

> TCM, we agree again

Please don't say that so loud :-)

The Crazy Met

    OK
    
    TCM WE AGREE AGAIN!

    UCLA didn't win, so what's the discussion... Michigan was considered
    the weakest #1 of the 4, and turned it on when they needed to.  But
    they still lost... Their best team couldn't beat Santa Clara.

>    UCLA didn't win, so what's the discussion... Michigan was considered
>    the weakest #1 of the 4, and turned it on when they needed to.  But
>    they still lost... 
    
    The 2nd place team (actually UCLA, Cal, and ASU were all tied for 2nd)
    from the "weakest" major conference shouldn't even given Michigan a
    game.  That's the discussion!  Is the PAC underrated or is Michigan
    overrated?
    
    >Their best team couldn't beat Santa Clara.
    
    For clarity's sake, their best regular season team.  In retrospect,
    even that may not be true.
    
    Mike

    	Shaq should've went to Barcelona, but so far Laettner is no
    Ferry.  He would start on the Celtics (for what that's worth).
    
    				/Don

    Yo,
    Some_a_the Slac10 post-season success is obviously due to late season
    peaking. All of which is anathema to consistent_regular_season_success_
    but_no_end-of_year_peaks_cuz_a_it_upsets_The_System_UNC_apologists.
    
    MikeL
    

	You wonder where all these writers are that were criticizing the
California administration after they fired Lou Campenelli.  Cal to me
looks like the class of the PAC10 so how bad a move can it be when you
get rid of a guy who's got such a talented team underachieving?

				/Don

We all know that the only reason that Cal beat Duke was cuz Dale Brown
said the Duke would blow em out. The PAC10 should hire Dale to predict
their season and they would be fine.

In any case, back to a question that Mike asked: Yes, I think that
Michigan is overrated. They have the talent which gives them the rankings
but they have a major attitude - or lack therein - problem. They seem
more interested in ending the season so they can sign on with the NBA
than actually focusing on the game at hand. Unfortunately for the rest of
the remaining field UCLA probably woke them up and will at least give
Fischer something to preach about.

TTom

    
    To answer Mike's question, Michigan is definately overrated.  Each of
    the starting five has a lot of talent and can do a lot for your team,
    but Michigan is not a TEAM.  They are a bunch of individuals playing
    the game of basketball.
    
    Marc
    

    Ok, I understand now.  Michigan = '84 L.A. Lakers

    BTW - I never updated the National Rasslin' Rankings.  
    
    1. Iowa St.
    2. Oklahoma St.
    3. Penn St.
    4. Arizona St.
    
    ASU finished with 5 All-Americans and 2 individual national champs.

    Well, well, well.  Guess what conference had the most members
    represented in the NFL draft this year.

    
    
    
    Is Brock still coaching at ASWHO?  If he is they still stink no
    matter what there record.
    
    Jerry
    I used to live in Tucson and still follow the CATS.

>                                 -< UA ROOLZ >-
    
    Especially in hoops!  {insert hysterical laughter}

>    Is Brock still coaching at ASWHO?  If he is they still stink no
>    matter what there record.
    
    Yup, and the UA is always looking up to the top at them.

    
    > Is Brock still coaching at ASWHO?  If he is they still stink no
    > matter what there record.
    
    Brock's still there, but they lost their longtime pitching coach in a
    bizarre shoplifting scandal.  Mike H can supply the details...
    
    glenn
    

    So the Pathetic 10 must be filled with inept coaches.  All that Pro
    Talent and can't even get teams in da Top 5....
    
    JD

>    Brock's still there, but they lost their longtime pitching coach in a
>    bizarre shoplifting scandal.  Mike H can supply the details...
    
    Actually it wasn't a shoplifting scandal, more along the lines of
    indecent exposure.
    
    JD, maybe you're hip to the new math, but when I went to school #2 was
    in the Top 5.

    	Hey JD, take a gander of how many ND players went in the draft
    and ask yourself why that team wasn't #1. 
    
    				/Don

    
    Mike -
    
    What Pathetic 10 football team was #2??
    
    JD

    /er,
    Ya don't have to axe. I'll tellya. With allthe potential #1's at skill
    positions, I soitanly thought last year was ND's bested chance at
    numero uno. All ya gotta remember is early-year setbacks. Wif TopGun
    (Mirer) and Battering Ram(Bettis) having mediocre to terrible games
    agin Michigan and Stanford, with s=credit due to those teams, #1
    thoughts were almost gonzo. No solace to moi, but they sure looked
    impressive to end the season at #4.
    
    MikeL
    
    Yo, Heiservane. What's this with all the ASU adolation again?
    Seems that whence they lost to ND early in the year, you was giving
    up the ghost. Done tol' ya that ASU would recover. 
    
    

    JD, you didn't specify football and I assumed you meant either
    basketball or baseball since those seasons are current.

Some PAC10 baseball players were drafted by the NFL?

TTom

    Nah, must have been basketball..
    

    Wasn't Reggie Jackson drafted by the NFL?

    Dave Winfield was... but he went to a Big-10 school...

    Didn't Danny White play baseball too?

    Kenny Lofton went to U of A...

    Well Mike, you was a crowing about da NFL draft, so I assumed you'd get
    the connection.
    
    JD

    
    Bullwinkle went to WassaMatter U.
    
    
    ;^)
    

    
    I was pretty sure Reggie was a 10th or 11th round pick.  He played
    football for ASU his sophmore year, I think.
    
    brews

      I went to ASU to chase girls around (sin city).  I wasn't drafted
    by the NFL though.   My speed was questionable according to scouting
    reports.
    
      Tim

re: .86

Does that mean you weren't fast??

re: WassaMatterU

I always preferred the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople

The Crazy Met

    
    ASU came from 9 strokes back on the lasted day (yesterday)to win the 
    NCAA golf title.  Who was the team that choked?
    
    Arizona!  No surprise at the choke!

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A r i z o n a             S t a t e               U n i v e r s i t y

      No I wasn't/am not.  Something about going thru the motions...
    
      Tim

    Can any of you PAC-10 folks give me an update on Kentucky's latest
    addition?  He's Mark Pope from the University of Washington.  Pope, at
    6'9, decided to transfer to UK after Washington's head coach left.  
    
    Pope, who just completed his sophomore season at UW, was named the
    PAC-10 freshman of the year in 1990-1991.
    
    Thanks - Bob

Pope was a much heralded recruit when he signed w/ the U-dub. He along
with some other dude that graduated this year was supposed to turn the
program around. They didn't.

He was supposed to be the next coming of Detlef Schrempf. He isn't. He's a 
tall guy that can play a little offense and a little defense. He'll be a decent
7th or 8th man for Kentucky but he won't be eligible until the 94-95 season.

He's nothing to get terribly excited about.

He left after they let go coach Nance who had problems with different players
on the team and had been accused of racism. 

Metz

    ASU wins their first PAC baseball title since 1988 by sweeping Arizona
    over the weekend.

    3 of the college baseball polls rated ASU #1 going into postseason
    play.

    Gee, someone must have snarfed them...

>                   -< So many nights, I sit by my window... >-
    
    that's not Axx Sxxxxx!  That's Dxxxxx Bxxxx!  next thing you'll be
    singing Axxxxxxx songs!

    I know, but I only know so many Air Supply lyrics...

    Where's JD when you need him?
    
    Loved that little blurb I saw in both Boston papers regarding Bill
    Walsh's blasts towards UDub and subsequent apologies to Don James and
    the Washington AD. Seems that Walsh called UDub a "rogue" operation
    only interested in football from its athletes and not giving a darn
    about academics. 
    
    His follow-up apologies were an obvious pc cover-up. HAHAHA
    
    Won't take much more time for Walsh to quickly surpass UDub as the
    best in the Pac10, USC's hope for a Mike Garrett/John Robinson
    Trojan rejuvenation notwithstanding.
    
    John McKay's wqorst fears coming true... the Radcliffe of the PAC 10
    (McKay's words) dominating like the 20's and 30's.
    
    MikeL
    

    Break those chains that bind you...
    

    Number 100... happy happy, joy joy...

    
    I had to laugh last night when my brother's girlfriend, a ASU alum
    visiting from Tempe, told me that Arizona St's return to the CWS was a
    moral victory in itself because only in the past year has most of the 
    athletic department gotten out of jail...
    
    glenn
    

    Actually, ASU sports are experiencing a_re-emergence since I first step
    foot on campus last summer.

    Any word out west yet RE: preseason football rankings??

So when ASU doesn't win the Pac-10 will Mikey properly put an entry into
the Crow note??

The Crazy Met

    at this rate, I won't be noting in here much longer.

Its hard to find sympathy when you bring things on yourself.

The Crazy Met

    Nobody deserves that kind of treatment regardless of what I did (which
    was nothing really).  Many even stated it's BENEATH SPROTS.

    
    	Beneath SPROTS?  Can't happen!  :*)
    
    Claybone

Mike H -

Be a man.  Go and check archives from years back - maybe RUBY:: days.  There were
multiple JD notes giving me crap  "JD's nightmare note" and others.  Stuff was worse
than what you got.   But I was main enough to laugh it off and keep on going.

People in glass houses and all that...

JD

    Many?

    real main's don't write sappy, whining "crow" notes to appease people
    that don't know how to root for a team.

                 
    > real main's don't write sappy, whining "crow" notes to appease people
    > that don't know how to root for a team.
    
    You mean like abandoning a team and saying "it's over" when they drop a
    couple games?
    
    glenn
    

    Hmm, many folks here still root for the Red Sox despite all the heart
    break. At least one of us roots for the Mets even though they are
    stinkin' it up bigtime. I don't see the Pitt fans chanign who they're
    rooting for. Of course I have notcied one person who has changed some
    allegiances from the Celtic to .. oh never mind.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Why don't we all drop this manure.
    
    MikeyH has his convoluted reasons so why don't we respect them and
    let him continue to fall on his sword which he will do unaided
    by us.
    
    MikeL
    

    Where is JD when 'ya need him??
    
    UW was put on 2 years probation by the NCAA, this include no Bowl
    games for 1993 and 1994 seasons, no TV appearances for 1993.
    Their footbal coach resigned.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Don James = rat deserting a sinking ship

    It was the harshest punishment the PAC's ever handed down.

  What exactly were they(UW and coach James) guilty of ?

	Keith

    Paying players, giving meals to recruits, other things...
    

    
    Although I think James has a legitimate beef (they got hit harder than
    Clemson did, for *much* less), I can't see how he can justify in his
    mind that it is ok for him to leave his recruits, after saying the
    PAC10 was being unfair to his players.
    
    brews

    I too question James' decision to leave under these circumstances,
    it does seem like he is deserting the ship.
    
    And I raised me eyebrows at the severity of the PAC10 sanctions,
    especially since UDUb seems like a first-time offender who
    cooperated. 
    
    What gives up in Wash.??
    
    MikeL
    
     

>>>    What gives up in Wash.??
    
     Billy Jo 50K? Jobs that didn't exsists and the other previously mentioned
 charges. James knew and he condone it IMO. Now he cries he's clean and
 cooperated give me a break.....
    
     

    So what's the scoop with Southern Cal this year.  Are they worthy of
    the 8.5 points they're giving away against UNC this weekend?  Seems
    kindof steep for two (2) teams ranked almost the same in preseason
    polls.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Thanks mike,
    I was lookin' fer the Seattle spin!!   8^)
    
    MikeL
    

Since this is the biggest media story out here since the latest sinking of the
floating bridge I'll fill y'all in on the details and then what the punishments
were and then the media, university and my reactions to the whole deal...

The details are...

QB Billy Joe Hobert solicited and then accepted $50k in loans during 1992. It
was discovered during the '92 season. Hobert was declared ineligible and the
PAc 10 looked into the situation and decided that UW didn't have to forfeit any
games he appeared in.

Then the media (who were previously UW football lapdogs) actually started
looking into the program and uncovered some more dirt like improper recruiting
contacts by some boosters, UW players getting payed more for summer jobs than
other employees and getting free meals, UW players getting cheap cars loans w/
no visible method of payment.

The UW investigated and the PAC 10 investigated. They never found that the
coaches had any direct involvement in these wrongdoings and that it appeared to
be the acts of over zealous boosters.

The PAC 10 decided on the following punishments....

No bowls games for 2 years, reduced scholarships by 30 this year and 25 next,
Not elegible for PAC 10 title and (this is the one that sticks in the craw of
many) they were allowed to play on TV but all revenue went into the PAC 10
coffers (no mention of what it was to be used for).

The reaction by the university ( persident through AD through coaches through
players) was to have a press conference and then whine about how the penalties
were too severe. The coach of the Huskies Don James resigned saying that it was
the strongest possible statement he could makes about how the PAC10 was
treating the UW unfairly and if that's how they presidents of the other
universities were going to insult his character ( he thinks the penalties were
to harsh because the PAC10 committe thinks he and his staff were in on
everything) then he'd resign....

Here are my feelings on the matter...

First of all too much is being made of it. The Media is overreporting this
thing. It's not like the university isn't allowing students to graduate it's
simply the football team isn't going to the Rose Bowl for 2 years...

I'm disgusted with the representatives of the University and the whining they
are doing on TV. Instead of being petulant and complaining about the penalties
they should have said something like this; "We screwed up, here are the
penalties, we think they are too harsh but will abide by them. Here is what we
are doing to make sure this never happens again." Then they should have
proposed an alternate plan where the TV money they were going to rake in would
have gone to something constructive instead into the general coffers of the
PAC10. They might have considered working on the graduation rate of the
football players as well.

I'm disgusted with the PAC10. It's pretty obvious that the other member schools
were getting tired of being pounded by Washington in the past 5 years and saw a
way to hurt the program for a significant amount of time. The penalties are
pretty harsh compared to what the NCAA has handed down to other programs that
have flagrantly broken the rules. Despite what Mike Heiser blabbers The
University of Washington is a football power that the rest of the PAC10 fears.
The PAC10 is acting like some bad cops after busting a pimp by saying "We
caught you, we know you're bad but because you make us so much money we'll
leave you on the street to prostitute yourself for us. Just don't stop the $$$$
from coming in." The whole deal with Tv being allowed but the cash going to the
PAC10 stinks to high heaven.

I'm sure the networks are happy and disappointd at the same time..Happy because
the annual UW vs. Michigan matchup in the Rose Bowl was really getting old and
tv ratings for the big daddy were slipping...Sad because there isn't anybody
else in the PAC10 that has a real shot at a national title year in and out and
having a potential national title winner in the bowl games is what it's all
about. 

I'm mostly disgusted with Don James. For a man that's always preached about
overcoming the odds and never quitting he certainly turned tail and split at
the first sign of bad times. If he really cared about the kids he recruited he
would have stuck it out and tried to teach them to be the best football players
they could be during this time. The grand show of resigning didn't accomplish
one damn thing except make him look guilty and like a quitter.

I'm not on the side of the university in this issue. I find it hard to believe
that a program with, I guess, 1 coach for every 10 players didn't know that
guys with no support and fresh out of the LA projects were showing up at school
with brand new camaros and monster trucks. I find it hard to believe that some
coach didn't overhear in the locker room that guys had summer jobs where they
didn't do any work. I think that if you dug hard enough you'd find this in
almost any program though. 

The botom line is, they got caught, they should shut up and do the time and get
a program in place that makes sure these infractions don't happen again. The
football program brings in $24 million into the Udub every year. With that sort
of scratch they could afford to make sure they followed the rules.

Metz

    
    I do agree that regardless of the extent of the penalties and whether 
    they were deserved or not, that it's a major conflict of interest to 
    have the presidents of the other Pac-10 schools voting on Washington's
    fate.  They can talk all they want about resolving their problems
    internally so that they don't have to go up to the big boys (the NCAA),
    but that only holds water if you can honestly say that these presidents
    are detached and objective authorities (i.e., there are no money
    interests at stake).  And I don't think that proposition has much
    credibility...

    glenn
    

    For any of you doubting Waugamain's claim that fellow PAC-10 presidents
    have no vested interest in this ....
    
    Cain anybody guess where Washington gets all its best players?!
    
    
    
    California, that's where.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    The penalty that stood out the most was the scholarship reductions.
    
    What is the correct # per year ( I've seen a couple of figures)?
    
    Yup, having the PAC10 officials decide UDub's fate is just like
    having Internal Affairs at each PD. And that doesn't exonerate Wash.
    
    I suppose thwe UDub faithful can't wait for Bill Walsh and the Stanford
    Cardinal to visit... after the Genius accused James of running a
    rogue operation..
    
    Vewy interesting..
    
    MikeL
    

I doubt that James will coach again. He termed his resignation a retirement
instead of as a resignation for a reason.

He's no spring chicken and he's a pretty principaled guy. He said in a radio
interview yesterday that he wouldn't coach again. I think he made the wrong
decision by quitting but he isn't a larry brown type who resigns for a better
position. He did it to make a statement...

Washington has the option to resign from the PAC10 if they want to...

Maybe they should move to the Big10 (11) or shudder...join the big east :-)


Metz


 

    
    I agree with Metz that the other schools appreciated the opportunity
    to even things out with UW, and ASU had a major hand in this.  From
    what I read, the PAC10 officials seemed upset that UW showed little
    remorse, and that affected the size of the penalty.
    

    Re: -1
    
    I don't know about that Brews.  ASU had an official that chaired the
    committee.  I don't know enough about the chairperson's
    responsibilities to say ASU had a major hand in the decisions.

From JD - I know you all wanted to hear what he had to say about UW's
recent woes (excerpts with permission):
-------------------------------------------------------


I've read with great interest the recent woes of
the flagship of the Pathetic 10 - UDub, and could
only smirk when the great holy man, Don James,
resigned in disgrace.  He looks like Left Dizzle's
dance partner.

I imagine that all of those in SPORTS that poo-pooed
my expose' of the wrongdoings of the Huskies footaball
program and thought I was on some sort of vendetta
against them and the great state of Wishington, have
already entered notes asking for my NOTES spirit to
forgive them.  Once again, I was proven right.

My inside source, a coach at UDub (track), had told me
about the 'dub's footaball practices....I knew that
they would come tumbling down.  Now, if they were
real mainly there, they'd renounce their tainted
trophy and resign themselves to playing in that
gutter league of rogues, miscreants, and rejects from
Dexter Manley's School of Speed Reading.   If Stanford
ever left the Pathetic 10, the GPA of the league
would fall to around 0.

>Dexter Manley's School of Speed Reading.   If Stanford
>ever left the Pathetic 10, the GPA of the league
>would fall to around 0.
    
    note as long as I'm in the PAC-10 it won't.

    Ouch!
    
    USC takes it on da chin, 31-9 to the previously underachieving Heels.
    McFadden breaks ankle. Johnny Rob needs Tums.
    
    MikeL
    

    {my paraphrase of the Arizona Republic's version}
    
    1. Arizona - the favorite to win the conference.  7 defensive starters
    return to one of the nation's toughest defenses.  Their schedule is
    favorable since they don't play the Huskies and they play the Trojans
    in Tucson.  The question marks are they have a new offense (they trashed 
    the option and entered the '90s) and have a first-year QB.  Rob Waldrop
    (NG) and Sean Harris (ILB) are candidates for national honors.
    
    2. USC - the Trojans have 18 returning starters and John Robinson back as
    coach.  They have 2 glaring weaknesses though: their schedule and lack
    of team speed.  In addition to playing the Wildcats in Tucson, they
    face the Huskies in Seattle.  The defense figures to be one of the
    conference's best and will use a new 4-man front.  The starting and
    backup QB's return.
    
    3. Washington - UDub lost 7 defensive starters and a QB before the NCAA
    sanctions came down.  Damon Huard (soph) and Eric Bjornson (jr) are the
    leading QB candidates.  They will have a frontline returning 4 starters
    to work behind.  They also still have Napolean Kaufman.  Despite 3
    successive Rose Bowl appearances, consensus was they were starting to
    slip back into the rest of the PAC before being penalized.  Personally,
    I think they'll be more motivated with something to prove.  Only time
    will tell if that's enough against the rest of the improved teams.
    
    4. ASU - several publication picked them to finished 2nd, but could really
    figure into the Rose Bowl race if they stay healthy.  The Droods lost 5
    starters on offense, 6 on defense, plus their kicker and punter.  That
    might be offset since Coach Snyder has had 2 full springs and a full
    season to implement his system.  Grady Benton, the all-time efficiency
    record holder for freshmen, gives the Droods a stable QB situation
    (unlike last year).  Mario Bates (leading NCAA rusher before injury
    last year) and George Montgomery are coming back from knee surgery.  If
    they return to form, the Droods could have the best running tandem in
    the conference.  4 starters return on the offensive line.  The
    defensive line is a question mark and has to be rebuilt.
    
    5. Stanford - Cardinal have 6 starters returning from offense,
    including their QB, and should score lots of points.  They will need
    it though because of their defense.  7 defensive starters will have to
    be replaced.  3 linebackers and 3 of the 4 secondary-men.
    
    6. Oregon - Ducks return 7 each on offense and defense.  The writer
    claims that taking the PAC title or a bowl berth aren't unrealistic for
    the Ducks.
    
    7. UCLA - Bruins were to have 8 defensive starters returning until
    Bruce Walker (NG) had a problem with the law.  He'll miss the season. 
    Only 5 offensive starters return, none at QB.
    
    8. California - the Bears have lost their 1,000-yard rusher (Russell
    White) and 1,000-yard receiver (Sean Dawkins) but retain their QB.  
    
    9. WSU - for a change, the Cougars will emphasize defense this year. 
    They return 9 defensive starters and only 2 on offense.  The new QB was
    Bledsoe's backup for 3 years and knows the system.
    
    10. OSU - the Beavers return 36 of the 44 players on last year's
    roster (16 starters - 8 on each side of the ball).  They are still
    considered young, but improving.

If Beano Bryant gets reinstated I'd have to argue that a backfield of Bryant
and Kaufman is hands over anything else the PAC10 has to offer in the running
department.

UW will win with offense this year instead of defense. They have a formidible
front line for run offense and some great backs. 

After last night I'd have to rate USC a little lower than #2 in the PAC10.

It will be a dog fight between Stanford, Arizona and Washington.

I'd like to see Stanford in the Rose Bowl myself...A school with real
academics...


Metz

    Well according to this writer, Stanford will be the PAC version of the
    old Denver Nuggets.  They had a great defense last year, but lost all
    their linebackers and most of their secondary.  The Washington-Stanford
    game should be interesting, given all that Walsh said about the Husky
    program last season.
    
    Mike

    
    Mike, Montgomery is fone for the season (again).  Broken foot or
    something...
    
    brews

    when did that happen?  I thought he was just going to miss a few weeks.
    tough luck.  He didn't have a healthy season his whole collegiate
    career.
    
    BTW - ASU is #30 in the latest polls.

    If USC is supposedly the 2nd best team in the PAC-10 is anybody in here
    worried that the league but be down (*WAY* down) this year, after
    getting thumped by non-football power North Carolina in their own back
    yard??!!
    
    BTW, who's the idiot in the AP poll who gave Stanford a #1 vote?!  Git
    real, bub.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

USC is coached by John Robinson. The man invented the term underachievement in
pro football (you know who invented it for College hoops) and he will carry the
tradition back to USC.

USC will not end up #2 in the PAC10 this year.

The PAC10 will be down from the last 2 years. It's quite evident that the
balance of football power has shifted from the PAC10 to the Florida schools.

If the ACC and the PAC10 had a series of games the ACC would back out of it as
fast as they have the ACC-Big East challenge after getting thier heads handed
to them for a couple of years.

Metz

    > If the ACC and the PAC10 had a series of games the ACC would back out
    > of it as fast as they have the ACC-Big East challenge after getting
    > thier [sic] heads handed to them for a couple of years.
    
    Don't let facts get in your way Metz.  The BigEast coaches decided on
    canceling the ACC-BigEast Challenge, and if you're even trying to
    suggest that the BigEast has been superior to the ACC during the span
    of the BigEast-ACC Challenge you oughta have your head examined.
    
    BTW, I'm not conceding the point that PAC10 Football > ACC Football. 
    Clearly FSU is greater than whoever is the PAC10's best.  Meanwhile the
    ACC's 2nd best spanked the PAC-10's 2nd best *badly*, on PAC-10 turf no
    less!
    
    Overall Metz, from top to bottom, your note 37.148 was a horrendous
    effort.  [sorry]
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

>    Clearly FSU is greater than whoever is the PAC10's best.  Meanwhile the
>    ACC's 2nd best spanked the PAC-10's 2nd best *badly*, on PAC-10 turf no
>    less!
    
    Chris, just because *1* reporter picks USC to take 2nd in the PAC, does
    not mean they deserve it.  Most preseason publications picked ASU to
    take 2nd in the PAC, yet this guy picked them 4th.
    
    You're riding an awful lot on this *1* guy for your wishlist.
    
    Mike

    Whatever Mike.  The point is I don't think there's any reason for ACC
    fans to concede that PAC10 football > ACC football.  Not anymore.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Maybe not to the Ivy League, but to the PAC there's no question.  UNC
    beat one of the PAC's weakest teams.  The better team's in any
    conference will beat the lesser teams in the PAC (or any conference).
    
    Mike

We all know that it was the ACC that womanly backed out of the big east - ACC
challenge to go schedule more cupcakes like Hofstra and the University of
Myrtle beach...

When FSU schedules and beats the top teams of the PAC10 then we'll declare them
better. Ya see FSU has a bad habit of groping for the chicken bone when they
play in the big games (wide right), although I'm sure you know all about that
feeling. Until they actually win the mythical they'll remain a paper tiger and
the darling of the pre-season pundits.

I doubt the ACC (as a whole conference) could even be considered even with the
Big 10 (11) much less the PAC10 and are far short of the conference of the
state of Florida.


I will say that the ACC has the most rabid college football fans going for it
though...even if they are cheering for an inferior product...

Metz

    This resembles the East vs. West NBA debate, Donks vs. Brownies, Wilt
    vs. Russell, etc.  All we have to do is ask how many national football 
    championships has the ACC won.
    
    BZZZT!  The answer is 0, but thanks for playing.

    > how many national football championships has the ACC won.
    > BZZZT!  The answer is 0, but thanks for playing.
    
    First Metz incorrectly tells us that everyone knows the ACC dropped out
    of the BigEast-ACC Challenge.  Completely and 100% false.
    
    Next Mike tells us the ACC has won 0 Titles, an error I might even be
    able to accept had the conference not won for 20 or 30 years.  In fact,
    GaTech shared the national Title in this decade!!! Haw haw!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    BTW, Clemson won a Title in the 80's (forget the exact year) as well.
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111

    How cain youse guys start this argument already?
    Exactly 2 college football games have been played this year.
    
    To draw any conclusions this early is premature. And I don't see
    how past performance has anything to do with this year. New players,
    new teams.
    
    BTW, is there any ACC-PAC10 matchups remaining for the year?
    
    MikeL
    

>                        -< I'm dealing with amateurs.  >-

Knorr knoweth what he hath spoketh!

Fellas, usually you don't have to have many - if any - facks for a_LDUC
but when you really don't have any it's best to keep the content
non-factual. No ACC Football Titles. Goodun there.

Now as to the ACC-Big East festivities, there's no doubt that the ACC was
better conference in the years that the games were played. Now, from the
other side, the Big East did win more of the actual games played in this
preseason non-thriller. 

To the issue of why it was dropped, evidently it was taking too much
outta the Big East beating the ACC early cause as a league they always
seem to fade down the stretch of the season. 

TTom

>    Next Mike tells us the ACC has won 0 Titles, an error I might even be
>    able to accept had the conference not won for 20 or 30 years.  In fact,
    
    Okay, I took a shot and was wrong.  I couldn't remember any off the top
    of my head.
    
>    GaTech shared the national Title in this decade!!! Haw haw!!!
    
    In football?!  '93 was Alabama, '92 was Miami, '91 was Washington.  I
    thought Nother Shame was in '90.
    
>    BTW, Clemson won a Title in the 80's (forget the exact year) as well.

    Clemson?!  You have to rely on Clemson for this?!  The team that
    schedules Sisters of the Poor, Tijuana School for Wayward Girls, North 
    Texas State, and has the refs in their pockets?!  Golldang, Chris.
    
    Mike

    
    	They shared the title with the CU Buffs.  The Buffs won the AP
    	and the Yella Jackets won the coaches poll (UPI?).
    
    Claybone

    Isn't the AP poll the one that also honors teams on probation?

>    Isn't the AP poll the one that also honors teams on probation?

Probably can't go to far with this slur cause Ga Tech wasn't and ain't on
probation. As for being honored this way, I think Washington ably
represents the PAC10 in the current AP poll. At last glance all the
ranked ACC teams are also in the coaches poll.

And still the lack of knowledge continues to be blatantly, nay proudly,
displayed.

TTom

    Tom, it means that their poll has less integrity.  

    
    Mike,
    
    	Re-read .159.  Ga. Tech. was ranked #1 in the *UPI* coaches
    	poll.  CU was ranked #1 in the AP (the one that you say honors
    	teams on probation).  CU wasn't and isn't on probation.  Much
    	to my chagrin (being a CU fan), I put more weight in the UPI
    	poll.  FWIW.
    
    Claybone

I guess than ACC CRisp was wrong in his initial statement that the ACC was a
weak sister football conference. I mean having a national champion in the 90's
and another in the 80's must mean that ACC football is a powerhouse conference
that should be expectd to whomp the likes of a bad USC team.

So, what's the point? other than the fact that crisp's initial statement was
false..

Metz

    Keep on spinnin', Mike.

    Could someone post some preseason rankings for the PAC?  Don't care what
    source. Not much in the way of PAC 10 news up here (Ottawa)... 

    re: .-1
    
    Check out 37.142 for one ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Here's the latest AP poll.  
    
1. Florida State      (2-0)  
2. Alabama            (1-0)        
3. Michigan           (1-0)       
4. Miami              (1-0)              
5. Texas A&M          (1-0)          
6. Syracuse           (1-0)         
7. Florida            (1-0)           
8. Tennessee          (1-0)           
9. Nebraska           (1-0)            
10. Colorado          (1-0)         
11. Notre Dame        (1-0)          
12. Washington        (1-0)            PAC-10           
13. Arizona           (1-0)            PAC-10
14. North Carolina    (2-0)          
15. Penn State        (1-0)        
16. Ohio State        (1-0)      
17. Oklahoma          (1-0)        
18. N. Carolina St.   (1-0)    
19. South Carolina    (1-0)      
20. Brigham Young     (1-0)  
21. Clemson           (1-0)     
22. Georgia           (0-1)            
23. Stanford          (0-1)            PAC-10
24. Baylor            (1-0)        
25. Boston College    (0-1)            
26. Arizona State     (1-0)            PAC-10

    The Droods totally embarassed the Utah Utes on Saturday night, 38-0. 
    ASU is now ranked #24 in USA Today/CNN and #26 in the AP.  The only
    downside was that they lost their best linebacker, Justin Dragoo, for
    the season to a knee injury.  ASU travels to Louisville this weekend.
    
    The defense, who lost 7 starters, was most impressive.  The Drood D had
    3 INT's, 2 FR's, 6 QB sacks, and 9 tackles for a loss.  They allowed
    256 total yards on offense, but no sustained drives and only 3.8 yards
    per offensive play.  It was Utah's first shutout since 1983, a team
    that prides itself on an explosive offense.
    
    Here is how the PAC's defensive fared in week 1 (except USC which has 2
    games under its belt):
    
    Team                    Offense           Defense       Difference
    Washington              500               274           226
    Arizona State           447               256           191
    Oregon                  393               202           191
    USC                     399               289           110
    Arizona                 251               153            98
    Oregon State            329               249            80
    California              410               374            36
    UCLA                    374               410           -36
    Stanford                274               500          -226
    Washington State        220               453          -233

>     Arizona State is listed in my paper as "among others receiving 
    
    BC was #25 with 116 votes.  After that it goes:
    
    26. Arizona State - 94 votes
    27. Wisconsin       93
    28. USC             59
    29. Memphis State   57
    30. San Diego State 53
    31. Auburn          22
    32. Georgia Tech    18
    33. West Virginia   18
    34. California      16
    35. Virginia        15
    36. Louisville      13
    37. Hawaii          12
    38. Michigan State  12
    39. Mississippi      8
    40. UCLA             8
    41. Rutgers          5
    42. Texas Tech       5
    43. Fresno State     4
    44. Indiana          3
    45. Iowa             3
    46. Kansas           3
    47. Mississippi St.  2
    48. Texas            2
    49. Washington St.   2
    50. Oregon           1

    
    I think Mike was a little to shy to talk about this, but ASU is the
    leader in the PAC10 in one thing:
    
    
    
    _SIX_ ASU coeds were named to Playboy's Girls of the PAC10 pictorial. 
    
    Just some more of the many titles ASU has to be proud of.
    
    brews

    Brews, in case you don't know it, that's a bi-annual event on campus.  I
    got to meet some of the contestants last year.  PB recruits every
    spring *AND* fall on campus.
    
    And judging by campus scenery, I'm not too shy to say I'm not
    surprised.

Not too good for the PAC 10.

In games that mattered, they went oh-fer against the Big10, losing to
Penn St and Ohio St, respectively.

In games that are supposed to be mismatches, mighty Arizona edged 
Pacific, rated Stanford barely beat San Jose St and Oregon was a little 
better thatn Montana.

Cal looked good, at least in the second half and Washington St mauled 
Montana St to keep some respectability.

TTom

    
    This looks like a down year for the PAC10.  Given Washington's
    troubles, USC's and UA's slow start, ASU may have a chance to win it.  
    
    
    brews

    Big11 has 5 teams in the top24... (UPI) - #8,11,14,22,24T
    Pac10 has 5 teams,#15,19,21,23,24T...

    So 3 Big11 teams are rated higher than the top team in the PAC10.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    And once the inter-conference play begins, we'll see a quick drop in
    both numbers.

It doesn't matter who wins the PAc-10 this year. The winner will get crushed in
the Rose Bowl. OSU showed that the top teams in the Big11 this year are going
to be better than the top teams in the PAC10. 

OSU went over,under and through the Huskies. When the huskies played a 4 man
front OSu ran for huge chunks of yardage, when the huskies tacked the front
line OSU threw very effectively. The defensive front line of OSU easily stacked
up a highly regarded O-line of washington and allowed no running room.

Personally I think only a good option team would move the ball against the OSU
defense. Gotta make those big boys run side to side and hope you can beat them
to the corner. 

I think the other top team in the PAC10 (Arizona) would have a tough time
moving the ball against this defense and I think OSU has a sophisticated enough
attack to score points against the swarm defense...

If you don't have cornerbacks that can cover mano-a-mano then any 9 man front
defense is going to get burned by a decent passer.

When does OSU play Michigan? It should be a great game....

Metz
 

    ASU had the week off.  They play in Louisville this week.  

    What happened to Bret Powers at OSU?

    re:.180
    
    Ohio State and Mich. play the last game of the year, whenever that is.

Whoa Nelly. that's going to be humdinger....

Especially if it's for the rights to the Rose bowl (which I think it will be)


Metz

>Whoa Nelly. that's going to be humdinger....

Speaking of Keith Jackson, we were discussing on Sunday how upset he got
with the Michigan return man who didn't field the punt at the 10, and
ND downed it.

I've never heard him get that worked up!


Do you think Keith will be doing the Rose Bowl?


'Saw

    
    	I don't know there "Frankaroo" but I sho hope so...
    
    Claybone

He is a classic, isn't he?

    Paybacks are brutal and ASU sure got their's from Louisville on
    Saturday.

    
    
    Boy Stanfud sure pulled one out of their behind vs CU didn't they?? Great 
    game better outcome.

    Missed the game, how does the Cardinal look?
    
    Good offense, porous defense??
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
    Stanfuds offense looked very good , the defense looked ...well not so
    good. Things should get better in that they only have a a few starters
    back from last years team, They also have 2 or 3 true freshmen starting 
    on D. The way I see it it will be a tough year with the schedule they
    have left. Also the player have to be able to read to go to Stanfud.
    BIG disadvantage there.

    Thanks Ron,
    
    Thank BillW fer the win fer me willya. Can't let ND git any urges
    towards overconfidence when they visit the Farm in a coupla weeks.
    
    
    MikeL
    

>     Since when does "a few" equal five. I guess that that sparklin'
>     ND math in action. This obsession with the past is a tad frightenin'
    
    Probably since "every Phoenix player" equals 2.

    OK why did this inane discussion end up in the PAC 10 note?
    
    Mac, did you make a moving mistake?? 8^)
    
    

    
>>     Since when does "a few" equal five. I guess that that sparklin'
>>     ND math in action. This obsession with the past is a tad frightenin'
>>     too. Let's point to sumpin' FSU did six or more years ago 
    
    OK let's git back to the near past if you want to patently ignore the
    not too distant past. OK how;a about looking at FIVE years ago, when
    the mighty Fauxnoles garnered the "toughest" schedule three times.
    
    Refer to note 22.155m,
    1989, no problem with dat year. Tough schedule (overall). Where did FSU
    finish? Remember that the '89 Irish finished #2, having played *8*
    teams who went to bowl games, beat then #1 CU in the Orange, lost only
    to to Miami, who had a weaker schedule than ex-Pres Ford in 1977. But
    dat's life.
    
    '90, major FSU opponents; Georgia Southern, Tulane, Va. Tech,
    Cincinnati, Memphis St. oooooooo, all_a_college_football's a-shudderin'
    
    '91, BYU ( gee are they tough fer FSU but "weak fer ND"),Tulane,
         Western Michigan (really..),Va.Tech(must be one of them
         time-honored traditional slugfests in the bar), Middle-Tennessee
         St(no comment),Louisville(boy that Schnellenberger cain recruit
         in Franklin Counnty), and I'll even giveya on probation South
         Carolina.
    
     '92 First ACC schedule, we're all a-tremblin'....
          Duke (nuf said), NCState(cake sorry TTom), Wake(cake), UNC(cake)
          Maryland(cake), Va.(yep,cake). 
    
    Man, can BB fool Jeff Sagawin... or payin' them off. B*llbustah
    schedule indeed...
     
    
   >> or how Miami 
   >>  got a thug rep before the current administration so that we won't have
   >>  to admit that both programs is better than ND, have been for awhile and
   >>   will continue to be as long as Lou "Little 'uns" is a-coachin' and a-
   >>  tarnishin'.

    Let's leave Miami outta this. They have enuf trouble graduating half
    their athletes, forget disciplining them.  No and I won't adnit both
    "programs are better than ND's. Mebbe footballplayingwise)maybe), but
    not program-wise. Big distinction. 
    
    
   >> And ND has scheduled tough opponents forever... 
  
    True statEment. No denying it, thankee/
    
  >>    And patsies too. On a regular basis. FSU plays a tougher schedule than 
  >>    ND. Period. End of discussion. Point to the Parseghian era if'n you want
  >>    but the facts is there. 

   Don't have to point to Ara. As I said, no program will schedule a
    suicidal year. Point to the Navy's NU's, MSU's (??, gee, even mighty
    FSU scheduled them), but are they worse than Middle=Tennesse St.,
    duke, furman, wake forst, cincinnati, ga. southern, ad nauseum.
    I think not... You can't admit to or ignore the stench from " Under
    the Tattered Teepee". 
    
    
>>      BTW - Good luck against the mighty Boilermakers.
    
  Thanks, we'll need it.
    
    
    MikeL
    

    Arizona's "weak" offense puts up 30+ vs. USC.  Too bad U dub's not on
    the schedule this year....make it much more interesting.
    

      ASU had a great showing;^)

                                   
    Is Bruce Snyder still happy with his "career move"?  Or was the pursuit
    of his personal financial goals quite enough for him, thank you?  ASU
    walloped by the heavy underdog Oregon State Beavers.  Ouch...
    
    glenn
    

    And ASU has a tough game at Wash St. coming up.

    If they can't beat the Beavers, every game will be a tough one.  I
    guess their defense can't handle the wishbone.

    It was announced yesterday that BC will be coming to the Suns' arena to
    play ASU next month.  That may prove to be interesting in here.
    
    As for ASU football, stick a fork in them.  The hated Mildcats appear
    to be the only PAC team that will make some noise outside the
    conference.

    Arizona reaches #7 with a fortunate 27-24 escape of Stanfuhd at
    Tucson.
    
    UA ought to send Stenstrom some flowers for his "gift" near the
    end of the game.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Stenstrom has been hit in the head too many times the last few years.

    Yo Ron!!
    
    Whar's your game report from ND-Stanford?? (especially the halter
    tops!)
    
    MikeL
    

If the Danny White playing for Arizona is the best they can do for Qb's than
don't count on too many Phoenicians playing QB in the NFL any time soon. If
Arizona is the best the PAC10 has to offer this year look for the BIG 10 to be
all over them in the rose bowl.  I don't think I've ever seen a team with a
more miserable offense in the catbird seat for the Rose Bowl. 

Despite the 9-6  score the defense wasn't that great either. WSU moved the ball
pretty effectively on them all day both running and passing despite having
their 2nd and 3rd string QB's playing musical chairs because the 1st stringer
is out with a broken collarbone. WSU had a last chance FG shot but it sailed
wide..lucky for the  kicker he's the coaches son...

OSU, Penn State and even Michigan would crush the best in the PAC 10 this year.

BTW - It looks like the Rose bowl might matter after all with OSU ranked #3 in
the country. If they win all their games they'll be ranked #2 after the loser
of FSU - Notre Dame drops in the polls. Then you'll get a #1 vs. whomever and
OSU vs a PAC 10 chump in the Rose...and another what if scenario? and another
MNC....

Metz

    I think the new Dan White is an out-of-stater.
    
    ASU looks to be revived with their new, true freshman QB.  He was a
    Parade H.S. All-American from Idaho.  He led ASU to a 38-30 win over
    Stanford up in Palo Alto.  A win badly needed by the Droods.
    
    Here's to ASU beating those Mildcats!
    Mike

    Yea Arizona has dodged some major bullets at home vs. middle-of-the-
    road conference foes.
    
    And I'm pickin' the winner of the PSU-MSU game to go to the Roses.
    Penn St's "D" will slow down the Buckeyes enough to defeat them
    even in Columbus and Michigan will dump the Bucks in Ann Arbor.
    MSU could be ther sleeper. The Illini might hold the trump card
    tho. PSU better be careful with the Illini. Does MSU play Illinois?
    
    Anyhoo, ah believe it's Penn St- UA in da Roses.
    
    MikeL
    

    Good point about UCLA. I forgot about them.
    I assume they play Arizona somewhere down the line...
    But watch USC upset the UCLAns
    
    MikeL
    

                                               
>    I think the new Dan White is an out-of-stater.
    
    Believe it or not, he's yet another Penn State QB transfer, although
    he's from San Diego originally, I think...
    
    Is this vaunted UCLA the same team that struggled mightily with the 
    mighty Oregon St. Beavers this past weekend?  By'not'e is back with 
    the Buckeyes and so is their offense.  I don't think they'd have much
    trouble with whomever the Pac-10 sends, although for coaching reasons
    the team I'd still most fear is Stanford.  They're not that good, but
    head-to-head Bill Walsh could have Coach Cooper's jockstrap pulled up
    and over his head by the end of the game... 
    
    glenn
      

    UA plays UCLA this weekend.
    
    With Illinois winning in Ann Arbor this past weekend and Arizona
    beating the Illini earlier in the season I think conference
    parity has been demonstrated.
    
    As far as UA squeaking by some marginal competition in the past two
    weeks, they tend to play well and surprise people when playing top
    teams and play below their potential during should be cakewalks.  Case
    in point - last season almost beating then ranked #1 Miami in Miami,
    beating #1 Washington and then losing to the AS "who" slumdogs to end the
    season.

>    teams and play below their potential during should be cakewalks.  Case
>    in point - last season almost beating then ranked #1 Miami in Miami,
>    beating #1 Washington and then losing to the AS "who" slumdogs to end the
>    season.
    
    ...for the 3rd year in a row and at home.  Would make me sick if I was
    a Mildcat feign!
    
    UCLA is a 7 point favorite over the Mildcats for this weekend.  UCLA
    has the best receiver in the country in JJ.
    
    The PAC could realistically end in a 3-way tie, but that would also
    give UA the edge since they've *NEVER* been there:
    
    UCLA will beat UA.  UCLA already has 1 PAC loss, but will probably get
    another from USC.  UA will get their first loss this week and their 2nd
    from ASU.  WSU has 1 already and will lose to UCLA next week.
    
    Go Droods!
    Mike

    I didn't say "marginal", I said "middle of the road" opponents.
     
    
    Who is the home team , UA or UCLA? My money goes with the home club
    in this case. UA gits it done in Tucson, and I believe that UCLA
    can hold court in LA
    
    MikeL
     

    I'm pretty sure it's in LA given the spread.  About time too, UA has
    been squeaking by marginal teams at home for the last month.

UA vs UCLA is on ESPN - 10:30PM Eastern Sat. night.

The Crazy Met

    UCLA is still a 5 pt. favorite.  They should cover against the
    Mildcats.  UCLA's offense is good enough to score a few touchdowns
    against UA's defense.  UA doesn't have the offense to keep up.  JJ
    Stokes is gonna have a field day.
    
    ASU is gonna beat UA too.  As long as the Bruins don't lose at
    Washington St. or USC, they're Rose Bowl bound.

    Can someone in here tell me how to pronounce By'not'e??
    Is that the approriate place for the apostrophe?? Where's the
    Cadet when you need him?
    
    I'm takin' PSU over the Bucks as ah told Waugamain. However, he's
    in major Holtzian denial/sandbaggin'... 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    
    >  I won't be the least bit surprised if OSU loses to a PSU team that
    >  pretty much has no offense. 
    
    I'd like to believe so because it's certainly no mismatch, but I do 
    think that the Buckeyes are the superior team this year.  But then
    again, I don't think PSU would have much trouble with the Pac-10 rep to
    the Rose Bowl either, nor would Michigan or Michigan St...
    
    glenn
    

    	The UCLA Broons will crush whatever team the Little 11 sends to the
    Rose Bowl.
    
    				/Don

                                     
    > There's an old saying in boxing that styles make the fight and UCLA's
    > style (should they make it) is perfectly suited to take advantage of
    > a bunch of defenses geared to stop smash mouth teams.
    
    You might be right about the other teams but I do think that Penn
    State would not match up badly against UCLA.  I think Michigan
    demonstrated that the best way to beat this PSU defense is on the line
    of scrimmage, which is also what Ohio St. will attempt to do tomorrow.  
    In the past, the Big-10's biggest problem in the Rose Bowl has been, as 
    you say, adapting to the passing game.  PSU has not had that problem
    with its defensive coaching preparation against passing teams in the 
    bowls even after playing smashmouth all year long-- just ask Miami.
    I know that the Big-10 has the reputation, but I cannot believe that
    just because they joined the conference that there's some kind of 
    mysterious force that will render a couple of great defensive coaches 
    in Paterno and coordinator Jerry Sandusky useless.  Of course, they
    could have problems scoring points regardless of whom they're up
    against-- my originally stated concern about this team before the
    "sandbagging" claims poured in...   
    
    glenn
    

>    afford to get in a shootout with UCLA. UCLA's biggest problem will be 
>    getting there, if they do they'll win it.
    
    Is that because of the PAC being the superior conference or UCLA
    shooting themselves in the foot?

probably UCLA does not match up well with some teams in the PAC-10

The Crazy Met

>   Of UCLA's remaing intra-conference games, one is tomorrow's matchup 
>  with first place Arizona and the last game of the season is against
>  bitter rival USC and the Rose Bowl berth when go to the victor or at
>  least USC can end on a positive note (for them) by sending UCLA to a
    
    UCLA has to play at Washington St. next week.  WSU has a top-ranked
    defense (2nd against the run) and could also knock them off.  UA
    squeaked by WSU last week.
    
    It's UA's Rose Bowl to lose at this point.  UCLA already has a PAC
    loss.
    
    Mike

For either the PAC-10 or Big10 to win the MNC, they gotta make sure both
Arizona and Ohio St remain undefeated, have the winner of the ND-Florida
St game lose their bowl, the loser of ND-FSU must look bad in beating
Nebraska, and Alabama must lose to Florida.

Then, Ohio St must win the Rose Bowl. Arizona winning won't get it done
and in fact there's almost no scenario that has Arizona winning the MNC.
It's a combination of looking bad even though they're winning as well as
the heavy influence TV on the eastern vote. The Rose Bowl would be the
first national telecast for Arizona.

TTom

What you need is the winner of ND-FSU to be beaten by somebody with a
loss.

Ideally, what you'd like to see if'n you're rooting Ohio St on is for ND
to beat FSU. Then FSU beats Florida, who beats Alabama in the SEC
championship. Then Florida, now with 2 losses, beats ND.

In this scenario, however, that means the FSU would have 1 loss and if'n
they pulverize the Huskers like they usually do, they just might win the
whole thang anyhoo. Especially if'n FSU doesn't lose too badly to ND.

Another way it might happen would be for FSU to beat ND but lose to
Florida.

In any case, it's a real stretch to have Ohio St win the MNC and like I
said afore, I don't see Arizona winning it in any case. I could be wrong
and certainly I'm open to suggestions but I caint see it.

TTom

    If OSU is undefeated and FSU, NU, ND all lose one or more games then
    they could very well in the MNC. Just remember BYU won it when they
    played a real cupcake schedule - but they were undefeated.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

If'n Florida St and Notre Dame each finish with 1 loss - 1 loses to the
other and the other loses presumably on New Year's - they're still going
to get a lot of votes especially if'n FSU loses at ND and wins the rest.

But you're right, the Buckeyes will get some votes if'n they go
undefeated which'd mean they have to win this weekend versus Penn St,
then at Wisconsin (if they got anything left) and then at Michigan
(ditto). They'd still wanna play and beat a_undefeated Arizona, though.

TTom

    Yes, I don't see an undefeated Ohio St. (especially) or Arizona not
    getting the MNC if everyone else has one loss.  Alabama with one tie
    *might* win over Ohio St. depending on how the games go, but even
    that's not a lock.  The coaches' poll especially is unlikely to go
    against an undefeated team as history shows that this feat is highly 
    respected by fellow coaches, almost regardless of strength of schedule.
    
    Besides, for either Ohio State or Arizona, finishing undefeated would be
    a legitimately impressive accomplishment, which is why I don't see it
    happening.  Too many bumps in the road to go for each team...
    
    glenn
    

The sprotswriters will simply vote for whomever has the best record on January
2nd.

If the winner of the ND-FSU game loses on bowl day and OSU goes undefeated
during BIG10 play and wins the rose bowl over an inflated PAC10 opponent then
they'll win the MNC or you'll have another split champion...

I really doubt that a #3 opponent will leap over OSU into the #1 slot unless
they drub the #1 team (FSU or ND) and OSU looks bad winning the Rose...

You gotta remember who gets to do the voting. The Big 10 coaches will surely
vote for the undefeated champion of thier conference esp if everybody else has
1 loss. There are enough votes out there that simply look at record to give OSU
the MNC easily if they win them all...

Metz

Metz

In your scenario, what about Alabama finishing the season with 1 tie,
beating Florida or whoever for the SEC and then beating the undefeated
winner of the ND-FSU game?

You gotta beleive the Tide would get a bunch of votes.

And anyhoo, we all know that if'n Ohio St is undefeated going into the
Rose Bowl they'd be favored and ergo have no chance or winning.

TTom

Won't happen....Bama ain't that good this year...However....You are right in
that they certainly would warrant MNC votes for beating Florida and one of
ND-FSU. 

But OSU is currently ranked higher than Bama and inertia is in their favor...

Metz

    Yep, while the Big-10 is demonstrating with each passing week some 
    serious top-to-bottom depth which will likely land six teams in bowl 
    games, in the Pac-10 it looks like all UCLA with everybody else far below
    (when you consider that the Big-10 outperformed the Pac-10 head-to-head
    in early non-conference play, and the Pac-10's uninspired non-con play
    in general).  It's hard to believe that the UCLA team I saw Saturday 
    night lost to a powerful but one-dimensional team like Nebraska, much 
    less California at the start of the year.  Of course it only takes one 
    team and not an entire conference to win conference bragging rights in 
    the Rose Bowl, and UCLA certainly looks like a team capable of doing that, 
    especially under home field playing conditions.  Ohio State was similiarly 
    dominant and completely unbeatable within the physical play required by 
    the wet and snow Saturday in Columbus, but while they have boatloads of
    talent at the skill positions their QBs have not been sufficiently
    tested under pressure.
    
    It should be a hell of a game, provided both teams hurdle all remaining
    roadblocks...
    
    glenn
     

    Glad to see UCLA dominate the Mildcats like predicted.  I was even more
    thrilled to see ASU finally return a spanking to UDub.  What would be
    even better is this scenario:
    
    - WSU beats UCLA next to put UA back in the hunt for the Roses.
    - ASU knocks UA out of the Rose Bowl, extracting sweet revenge.
    - UCLA beats USC the final week to go to Pasadena.
    
    Mike

    I'm not quite certain how OSU can be called one-dimensional. I'd put
    By'not'e, Harris, and Cothran against any running back corps in the
    country. I'd also stack Joey Galloway up against any WR, including
    Stokes and Derrick Alexander. I do believe that Cooper is not utilizing
    him as much as he could - but hey, who throws the ball up 3 TD's with
    running backs like that? Hoying is slightly better than adequate -
    which is sufficient with a burner like Galloway running the patterns.
    
    They should win out easily - but I'll be rooting for the Badgers this
    weekend.
    
    Murph
    

UCLA is not as good as they looked Saturday night - every break went their way.
They are also much better than they looked in their first 2 games.

The Crazy Met

    
    	Sometimes being one dimensional is no big deal.  Just ask
    	Bama!
    
    Claybone

UCLA still has a tough time on the offensive line when they play big strong
defense instead of speed defenses like Arizona and Washington. Believe me you
OSU has a big strong defensive line that will put pressure on the QB without
resorting to the blitz. 

UCLA has a great offensive coordinator though. He's always been able to spot
holes in a defense and design a game strategy to it.

I think the  question will boil down to...will UCLA see the ball enough times
to let their offense put points up on the board. OSU has an offense that is
fully capable of 12 minute drives time after time. If they don;t make mistakes
they win....It's called NFC east football...UCLA plays AFC football and you see
how many super bowls it's gotten the AFC lately...

Ball controll, no mistakes and a good defense usually wins over flashy offense..

Metz

Glad for at leat 1 decent team in the PAC 10 this year...

>they win....It's called NFC east football...UCLA plays AFC football and you see
>how many super bowls it's gotten the AFC lately...
    
    ...or how many Rose Bowls the Big 10 has won lately...

    
    > I wouldn't fancy their chances against the 'Noles or the Irish but
    > they are every bit as good as they looked Saturday night and better.
    
    I was impressed too, but the question is how is it that just one week
    before the Arizona game UCLA went well into the 4th quarter at Oregon 
    St. tied 17-17 (before winning only 20-17)?  I understand the emotions 
    of college football and all that, but it seems as if UCLA has had a few 
    of these types of efforts and they haven't come exclusively at the 
    season's start, when the Bruins fell to 0-2 (the same thing happened in 
    a win against Stanford).  Which UCLA team will show up on any given week?
    
    Another thing that is somewhat consistent with TCM's "every break went 
    their way" comment is the fact that UCLA leads the country in net 
    turnovers (takeaway/giveaway) which continued through the Arizona game.  
    That's a very important number to be on the plus side of and is an 
    indication of an opportunistic defense, but it's also a highly variable 
    factor that you can't always count on, because it usually says as much 
    about the competition's carelessness with the ball as your defense.
    Can UCLA win if an opponent like Ohio State takes care of the ball?       
    
    glenn
    

    Who cares about the Broons!  How about that whippin' the Droods laid on
    the little Husky Puppies on All Hallows Eve!  The Droods sacrificed
    lots of pups on Saturday!

    Yea,
    
    UDub is taking its licks this year. I guess all that emotion to
    win one fer ol' Don James just couldn't last....
    
    MikeL
    

    After blitzing Cal 41-0, ASU still has an outside shot at a bowl (Alamo
    or Freedom).  They are now 4th in the PAC.  Now that they appear to
    have their act together, it would be great if they could start the
    season over.  Tough game this week: UCLA at L.A.  We'll see what
    the new Droods are made of.

    I'll find myself in the odd position of rooting for ASU this weekend
    vs UCLA.  If the 'Devils can get by, we'd have the most interesting
    UA-ASU matchup in years!!!
    
    
    Got down to AZ stadium this weekend to see the Cats school Oregon. 
    Defense slacked in the 2nd half.  Chuck Levy ran the offense
    well...better than what I've seen of White.

    I'm surprised ASU is 11 point underdogs to UCLA this weekend.  They not
    only stopped the Bruins no-shutout 20-year streak last year, but have
    really been playing great of late.  Unlike UA, ASU has an offense *AND*
    a defense.

Arizona St has definitely turned it around with 3 pretty impressive wins.

Maybe the spread is 11 cause they beat the Bruins lasted year. Sometimes,
revenge is a major factor.

TTom

    >Arizona St has definitely turned it around with 3 pretty impressive wins.
    
    Thanks for the apology, TTom.  And you thought I didn't see that
    "underachieving" slam last week.  Jake Plummer is quite the QB.  You
    can hardly knock a guy that throws a 79-yard TD bomb on his first snap
    from scrimmage.  The Droods have their traditional long-ball capability
    back.  Last year, they only had 2 pass-plays over 50 yards all season. 
    Plummer has had 6 by himself in the 3 games he's started.  In addition,
    the deep threat has opened up the running game again.  The Droods have
    been well over 100-yards rushing in the last 3 games.  This former
    Parade H.S. All-American and ASU have a bright future ahead of them.
    
    Nothing would please me more for ASU to win their final 2 games.  It
    would keep the Mildcats out of Pasadena in sweet revenge.  It will also
    allow the UCLA-USC rivalry to decide who goes to the Roses.  Finally,
    at 7-4 and 3rd or 4th in the PAC, the Droods would be bowl bound.
    
    Mike

    Any details on this guy?
    
   clarinews@clarinet.com articles by Nov 1-5, 1993:

--------
Subject: Patriots sign guard Doug Skene
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 20:18:44 EST
 
	FOXBORO, Mass. (UPI) -- 
    ...
	The 1-7 Patriots also signed rookie defensive end Bryan Hooks, a free
agent out of Arizona State, and assigned him to the practice squad.
    
    Speaking of Arizona Atheletes, the Pats cut former AU LB Chris
    Singleton.

>    Speaking of Arizona Atheletes, the Pats cut former AU LB Chris
>    Singleton.
    
    ...and Miami picked him up before the ink dried on the newspapers.

    Met Singleton's ex concubine this weekend.  She said he *hated* NE and
    has wanted to leave for a while.

    So noone has any info on Bryan Hooks, eh?

    another team that has an upset shot this weekend: ASU.  UCLA's starting
    QB, Wayne Cook, has been in the hospital all week with kidney problems
    (bruised).  They finally let him out yesterday, but he's still
    urinating blood.  It sounds like it would life-threatening for Donahue
    to play him.  Their backup isn't nearly as good.

In lasted week's game, the UCLA backup played almost 3/4 of the game.
While he may not be as good as Cook, he did fine enough to wooop
Washington St.

TTom

    ASU showed some mercy on those Bruins last Saturday night.  Though the
    hottest team in the PAC won 9-3 over the #10 team in the country, the
    score could've easily been 19-3 in favor of ASU.  The Droods FG kicker
    hit the crossbar in the first half and they also drove to the UCLA 15
    with 2 minutes left.  Instead of embarassing them, they downed the ball
    to run out the clock.  This disappointed me tremendously ;-)  UCLA only
    crossed midfield once all day (to score their FG) and that happened
    late in the 3rd quarter.  The mighty Drood defense scored on an INT
    return as well.
    
    If we pummel those Mildcats and USC wins, ASU takes 2nd in the PAC and
    will go to the Bowl Coalition.  As it is, they're a lock on the Freedom
    Bowl.  The Mildcats choked their way out of the Roses again.  We did
    them a favor too by taking out UCLA, but the only PAC team to never
    play for the Roses will continue with that label.
    
    Mike

    Noone in the PAC-10 knowing who Bryan Hooks is has me wondering whether
    Hooks is a real nobody or if anyone in the PAC-10 topic knows anything
    about the PAC-10.

    Yep, the Cats pulled off a choke worthy of Lute Olsen this week!  I think 
    the Roses are still reachable if USC beats UCLA and UA wins (PLEASE,
    GOD!!) against the Scumdevils.  Gotta admit though...ASU *IS* on a tear!

>    Yep, the Cats pulled off a choke worthy of Lute Olsen this week!  I think 
>    the Roses are still reachable if USC beats UCLA and UA wins (PLEASE,
>    GOD!!) against the Scumdevils.  Gotta admit though...ASU *IS* on a tear!
    
    Nope, the Mildcats are completely out of the Rose Bowl picture with
    that loss.  USC only has 1 PAC loss, UA has 2 now.  If both win, USC
    goes.  The Battle of L.A. decides the Rose Bowl contestant.
    
    UA will probably end up in the Alamo Bowl again.

    re .269
    
    Bummer.  This means there's only one game left in the season!  Where
    is it gonna be played this year, Tempe or Tucson?

USC is cannon fodder for Ohio State in the Rose Bowl. You'll see carnage not
witnessed since Ben-Hur. The PAC 10 is having avery down year..I don't know if
they are once again leading the college world as it strives to resemble the NFL
 in parity or if all the teams are just having a bad season.

Not a team in the PAC 10 deserves to be in the top 10....only an  upset over 
Ohio in the rose should vault any of them into it.

Mike, Why do 'Zona teams only come on in the 2nd half of the season? Arizona 
did it last year (best team int he PAC 10 at the end of the year)  and ASU
seems to be doing it again this year....

Metz

    The Mildcats have to come to Tempe for the BIG GAME!
    
>Not a team in the PAC 10 deserves to be in the top 10....only an  upset over 
>Ohio in the rose should vault any of them into it.
    
    I'd like the current Droods chances against teams 5-10.
    
>Mike, Why do 'Zona teams only come on in the 2nd half of the season? Arizona 
>did it last year (best team int he PAC 10 at the end of the year)  and ASU
>seems to be doing it again this year....
    
    I don't think that's the case.  UA started slipping late last season
    too and then ASU knocked them off in Tucson.  ASU finally got their
    offensive line down so that they could run the ball and added a
    blue-chip QB to boot.  Mario Bates has averaged 150 yards per game
    during the streak.  He passed 1000 against UCLA and is the first Drood
    back to do that in 7 years.
    
    Mike

    1st - Rose Bowl        (USC-UCLA winner)
    2nd - Bowl Coalition   
    3rd - Freedom Bowl
    4th - Alamo Bowl

    I noticed while at school today that the Mildcat faithful are at it
    already.  The big "A" on the mountain next to Sun Devil Stadium has
    already been painted blue & red.  It's bad enough they have to come
    here to play the hottest team in the PAC, now they went and PO'd the
    whole school.

    The difference is UA students are bright enough to do it without being
    caught!

    ...but the "#1 defense in the country" isn't smart enough to hold a 20-0 
    lead in the final quarter.

    
    	Ya'll sure are thin skinned down there in the desert Mike.
    
    	Just count yourself lucky you don't play Colorado School of
    	Mines.  They dynamited the pillars in front of some of the
    	Colorado College buildings back a few decades ago!  Had a 
    	bunch of halftime brawls where they were only broken up by
    	the two teams running out onto the field.  The good ole days
    	I guess.
    
    	Mines and CC was the oldest rivalry west of the Mississippi
    	until CC decided they couldn't hang a couple of years ago.
    
    Claybone

    >    	Ya'll sure are thin skinned down there in the desert Mike.
    
    we're not thin-skinned.  I know it's all in good fun, but UA is still
    going down.

    Well it was *almost* a perfect weekend!  
    
    - The Wolverines completely abused the Buckeyes.  Bret Powers must wish
      he stayed at ASU now to play backup here.  Ha Ha!
    - Boston College brought Nother Shame back to reality.  Lou was right
      all along.
    - Miami lost.  Always adds to your day.
    - The Suns continue their winning ways.
    
    The only drawback to the whole weekend was UCLA beat USC, which
    prevents my Droods at a shot at 2nd in the PAC.
    
    Nothing would be finer than having a perfect week with these scenarios:
    
    - ASU whips up on Nogales Tech and hopefully meet Michigan in the
      Freedom Bowl.
    - The Boomer Sooners do us all a favor in embarrassing the Huskers
      *BEFORE* they get to the Orange Bowl.  Sure would clear up the polls.
    - BC beats West Virginia.
    - FSU beats the Gators to set up the title bowl here in Tempe.
    - The Fish beating Dallas on Turkey Day
    - ...and the Suns and Celtics continuing their great starts.
    
    would be a beautiful world,
    Mike

    If Cornhuskers and WVU both lose then it's probably
    back to FSU and ND in the Fiesta Bolw.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>    If Cornhuskers and WVU both lose then it's probably
>    back to FSU and ND in the Fiesta Bolw.

And of course UA beat ASU.

The Crazy Met

    Yeah kudos to UA.  They now lead the rivalry by 10 W's.  The first half
    was great, but ASU couldn't continue their running success in the
    second half.  ASU is the only team to rush for over 100 yards against
    them in the last 2 seasons, and they've done it twice.

    Like I said elsewhere, congrats to UA.  I'll take my heaping of
    Nogales-styled Cat Crow.  After the first half, the second half was a
    major letdown.  UA finally figured out how to stop ASU's rushing
    attack.  
    
    UA vs. Miami in the Fiesta Bowl is still a possibility.  No word yet on
    ASU's bowl hopes.

	So which bowl is ASU going to ?

    
>    Yeah kudos to UA.  They now lead the rivalry by 10 W's. 
    
    What?!  You mean the school that has no football tradition, no great
    NFL alumni, no fictionalized press guide actually leads this rivalry 
    by 10 wins?
    
    glenn
    

    ASU and Cal are tied for 4th in the PAC.  It's up to the Sun or Alamo
    Bowls who to pick.

>    What?!  You mean the school that has no football tradition, no great
>    NFL alumni, no fictionalized press guide actually leads this rivalry 
>    by 10 wins?
    
    Glenn, the rivalry is 89 years old.  They padded their wins early in
    this century when ASU was an agriculture school.  ASU has been
    dominating the series since 1950 when Whizzer White (Danny's father)
    helped turned the school's football program around.  ASU is 30-12-1 vs.
    UA since then.

      ASU don't deserve it...

>    ASU and Cal are tied for 4th in the PAC.  It's up to the Sun or Alamo
>    Bowls who to pick.

     The Alamo Bowl picked California.  I believe ASU has been left out of
     the bowl picture.

    
    ASU ended the season 6-5, Cal was 8-4.  Although both were tied in the
    PAC, Cal is the logical choice.  
    
    Now if someone could explain the logic (without using the term TV) hou
    Arizona is in the Fiesta Bowl, after having played only 1 top 25 team,
    and losing that game, I'd be greatful.
    
    brews 

    Oh well, maybe next year.  They controlled their destiny and blew it,
    even if they beat Cal 42-0.
    
    ASU's hoops team is really banged up, but managed to beat BYU by 15 on
    Saturday night.

	re.290


  Which Whizzer White are you refering to. The only Whizzer White that comes
to note is Byron White aka Whizzer White Univ of Colorado 1938 later appointed
supreme court justice by Kennedy in 1961.   

  Is this some Arizona folklore? ,another Heiserism or just plain BS?

  Cadzilla2

    Whizzer White is Danny White's father (ex-Dallas Cowboy QB).  I don't
    know how he got the nickname, but that's what they've been calling him
    around here for at least 50 years.  He played at ASU in the late '40s.

    
    There is two.  That's why you often hear Byron "Whizzer" White.  ASU's
    is Wendell "Whizzer" White.
    
    brews

Thanks for the clarification brews

  The guy from Coloradi wus "Whizard White". Since he wus a scholar and
  a supreme court justice, the nickname fits.

  Now why is this guy from ASU called Whizzer ?

	Keith

>  The guy from Coloradi wus "Whizard White". Since he wus a scholar and
>  a supreme court justice, the nickname fits.
>
>  Now why is this guy from ASU called Whizzer ?
    
    Naw, the legendary "Whizzer" White is indeed Byron White of Colorado,
    college football HOFer and Supreme Court justice.  In 49 of 50 states 
    when you speak of "Whizzer" White, they know who exactly you're talking 
    about.  In Arizona, it's "Danny White's father" White, first name not
    immediately memorable, he of the, er, conveniently "borrowed" nickname...
    
    glenn
     

 >   Now why is this guy from ASU called Whizzer ?
    
    
    Mebbe he's a big beer drinker?
    
    brews

    Arizona passes it's first test this season by beating 10th ranked
    Oklahoma State.  Looks like the new fast break, stop and pop Wildcats
    could do more damage than previously thought.
    
    Also, it was good to see Santa Clara pester someone else!!

    Arizona State falls to Boston College in hoops action.

    I didn't see or listen to the game since I was out of town, but I heard
    the score was 74-70.  ASU is really banged up with only 8 in uniform.

    
    #16 UA knocked out #10 ASU in the NCAA Wimmens Volleyball tourney.  ASU
    had beaten UA twice thised year in PAC10 play, including a 5 game set
    won by ASU in the final game 24-22.  The star of the match was ASU's
    Leanne Shuster who was named 1st team all PAC-10 (Leanne undoubtably
    gets her inspiration from her sister because she is on my coed team).\
    
    brews

    Volleyball is a girly-mon sport brews.
    
    Take up somefin' mainly like soccer.
    
    GOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLL
    
    MikeL
    

    ...and you should see some of the girlys that play it...

    No MikeL, you got that all wrong.  It's
    
    GGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    HTH
    
    NAZZ

    I just hope ESPN has that guy doin' some of the World Cup games.
    When he stretches that one syllable out for 30 or 40 seconds, it gives
    me goosebumps!
    
    NAZZ

    I just heard today that ASU will be returning 16 of 22 starters next
    season.  It will be Snyder's litmus test since it's his 3rd year and
    he'll have his system and recruits in place.

    In what?  Soccer?  Thought they start 11...
    

    soccer is for volleyball players.

Article: 315
Path: pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball.college,clari.local.illinois
Subject: Northeastern Illinois 78, Arizona State 75
 
	TEMPE, Ariz. (UPI) -- Marcus West pumped in 24 points and Ulysses
Moran added 19 points and 11 rebounds Saturday night to spark
Northeastern Illinois to a 78-75, second-half comeback victory over
Arizona State.
	West also collected eight assists in running the Golden Eagles
offense, which outshot Arizona State 42 to 40 percent. Reggie Smith
added 16 points and grabbed 10 rebounds for Northeastern Illinois.
	Stevon Smith led the Sun Devils with 22 points and Isaac Burton added
21.
	Arizona State led 41-35 at the half, but the Golden Eagles then came
alive, hitting 18 of 33 shots in the second half for 54.5 percent. The
Sun Devils didn't respond well to the challenge, going cold at that
juncture. They shot only 33.3 percent in the game's late stages.

    Did the Big 10 lose one?

Michigan St. lost.

The Crazy Met

    
    >                     -< PAC gets an A in bowling >-
    
    You don't get no "A" if'n you don't win the Grandaddy.  Arizona, the 
    team you love to hate MikeH, did themselves proud, but a couple of 
    early yawners by Cal and USC against the likes of Iowa and Utah don't 
    make up for dropping the Big One.  Least that's what Big-10 feigns have
    always been told over the years for their troubles in the Rose... 
    
    glenn
     

    Great holiday season for Arizona sports.  UA's *ripping* of Miami in 
    the Fiesta Bowl was significant for the following;
    
    	o Proved AZ best in PAC in '93
    
    	o Brought national recognition to UA's football program.  Could
    	  bring better recruiting classes.  Could this be the birth
    	  of a new tradition, an AZ football powerhouse??  
    
    	o Along with the attention AZ has received in the B-ball world for the
    	  past few years this establishes UA as the premier sports school
    	  in the state.  ASU will live in the shadow of the 'cats for
    	  years to come!!!!
    
    
    In hoops, the 'cats lose by one to Kentucky on a last second tip-in. 
    Good loss though, could give them the toughness they've lacked come
    tourney-time.
    
    Took they're revenge on Michigan though, spanking 'em by 25!!
    
    Oh....to be a Wildcat!

    Anyone know the date of the first UA-UCLA basketball matchup??
    
    Also, where did Arizona end up on the UP coaches poll??
    
    It's tough to keep up on PAC sports in Eastern Canada!
    
    Thx.

    I think it's Jan. 20 (or 24th) at the Poly Pavilion.

Can somebody on the left coast hep me w/this?

I heard somewhere that Kamal(sp) Hamilton is a highly recruited
high school running back.  His father Ray (Sugar Bear) Hamilton
played for the Pats in the 70s and is now an assistant with
the Chargers/Rams/Raiders.
I went to college with Ms Hamilton.  Most of us took the Green
Line to school.  She drove in from Weston in a BMW.  Brought the
kid along sometimes.  Cute little dude, wider than he was tall
at age 3.
dr.a

    What happened??

re: .326

kinda obvious what happened if the author of .325 did not post
a score.


UCLA won, fairly easily.

The Crazy Met

    TCM, repeat after me:  UA = Arizona, ASU = Arizona State.
    
    I could care less what UCLA does to UA as long as they beat them
    Mildcats.  UCLA did hammer ASU by 17, but the Droods hammered USC by 30
    to take the southern Cal. split.

    And Droods=ASU?   UofA?  I'm guessing it's not Bruins...
    

    Droods are Debils.  Ain't nuthin but felines in that faux pas border
    town known as Tucson.

    "I like this list, I know that.  I told them I believe they all will
    play in a Rose Bowl.  That's a pretty powerful recruiting statement
    isn't it?" - ASU Coach Bruce Snyder
    
    ASU signed 25 players: 4 - RBs, 5 OL, 6 DL, 9 DBs, and 1 QB.
    There are some decisions still pending so it can improve.  Scouting
    services rated ASU's class 2nd best in the PAC (I think Washington was
    #1, Arizona #3) and in the top 25 in the country.  The QB is a 6'7" 
    blue-chip player from California (21 of the 25 are from there, 4 locals).
    
    Go Droods!
    Hize

>    There are some decisions still pending so it can improve.  Scouting
>    services rated ASU's class 2nd best in the PAC (I think Washington was
>    #1, Arizona #3) and in the top 25 in the country. 
    
    Everything I've seen has had USC at the top of the Pac-10, and very
    near the top for the entire country...
    
    Boston College was ranked at #12 by SuperPrep, FWIW.  They did finally 
    nail down that kid Scott Mutryn, the nationally #1-rated QB from Cleveland.
    
    glenn
    

>                -< Pressure's on Snyder, he better produce... >-
    
    yeah, he finally has nothing but his own recruits now.  

>    Everything I've seen has had USC at the top of the Pac-10, and very
>    near the top for the entire country...
    
    Yeah that's who it was.  The local paper said Tennessee was #1 and USC
    #2.  ASU was behind them in the PAC.
    
    MoD

    Local media made sure yesterday that everyone knew ASU wasn't being
    investigated.  The problem is all the collateral damage done around the
    country.  It will make recruiting tougher since everyone won't print
    a retraction after the initial shock.

    With ASU's performance over UA on Saturday, it makes you wonder what
    would've happened if they showed that intensity and effort all season
    long.

    
     Yeah, it might make you wonder that or it might make you wonder
    if UA really deserves a 2 seed. The answer of course is NO. But
    Chappy is right, the West is easily the weakest grouping but that's
    not exactly a new thing.

Lasted year the East was the weakest group.

The Crazy Met

>    BTW, Cal and UCLA are major disappointments....
>    
>    Frank Mendez
    
    yeah Frank, Arizona (of all teams) has somewhat redeemed the conference
    from yet another pathetic showing.  Washington St. lost to B.C. but
    that isn't that shocking.  ASU deserved to be there more than WSU
    anyway.  Most PAC fans knew they were better.
    
    However, if you look at it like the handicap horses (if beaten they're
    measured by how the victor performs afterwards), the UCLA didn't do too
    badly.  Tulsa has shown that they are't a fluke.  There just is no
    excuse at all for Cal.
    
    Mike

    Jason Kidd has announced a press conference for this Wednesday.

   <<< Note 37.338 by FRETZ::HEISER "can you see who I am thru those eyes" >>>

>    yeah Frank, Arizona (of all teams) has somewhat redeemed the conference
>    from yet another pathetic showing.  Washington St. lost to B.C. but
>    that isn't that shocking.  ASU deserved to be there more than WSU
>    anyway.  Most PAC fans knew they were better.
    
     Most of the people on the Pac-10 mailing list were thinking WSU to be
     better than ASU at the end of the season.  Perhaps you mean most PAC
     fans in Arizona.

>     Most of the people on the Pac-10 mailing list were thinking WSU to be
>     better than ASU at the end of the season.  Perhaps you mean most PAC
>     fans in Arizona.
    
    WSU didn't do as well in the conference and had a weaker
    outer-conference schedule.

   <<< Note 37.341 by FRETZ::HEISER "can you see who I am thru those eyes" >>>

>>     Most of the people on the Pac-10 mailing list were thinking WSU to be
>>     better than ASU at the end of the season.  Perhaps you mean most PAC
>>     fans in Arizona.
>    
>    WSU didn't do as well in the conference and had a weaker
>    outer-conference schedule.
>

     WSU and ASU had the same record in the conference, and WSU came on
     strong after a dismal 0-4 (0-5?) start in the conference.  WSU was
     definately playing better basketball at the end of the season, with
     wins over Cal and Stanford (the other contender for the 4th PAC-10
     NCAA spot) at the end of the season clinching the spot for the Cougars.

     ASU played well against Arizona, but didn't peak in the second half
     of the season like WSU did.

    The PAC 10's record since the NCAA tourney expanded has got to be
    abysmal. What makes it even worse is the amount of high seeds the
    conference is able to garner. 
    
    It's about time West Coast basketball is recognized for the pathetic
    thing it is. 
    
    Everybody is amazed at UCLA's 12 year run between 1963-4 and 1974-5,but
    in the majority of them UCLA only had to win two games against the likes
    of the Big Sky,WAC and PCAA to reach the final four .
    
    If the NCAA had been 64 teams with non-geographical regions,I doubt
    they would have won more than 5 (still a great record).

    At one time during the weekend, the only teams around that live west of
    the Missouri river were Boise St. and Arizona.

    PAC-10 in NIT:  all three teams lose in first round.
    PAC-10 in NCAA:  three of four teams lose in first round.
    
    'Nuff said.
    
    NAZZ

    >    PAC-10 in NIT:  all three teams lose in first round.
    
    To be fair, ASU had to play BYU on their homecourt.  

    re: Mike
    
    What does your P-name mean?

re: .347

do you HAVE to ask??? :-(

The Crazy Met

    ASU continues their rain delayed regional today.  They're down 3-0 in
    the 2nd.  The team is trying to give Coach Jim Brock something to
    remember.  If you've seen him lately, you probably know he's fighting a
    losing battle with cancer.
    
    Mike

    ASU now losing 5-2 in the 5th

    The Eastern Carolina Catamounts now lead ASU 6-2 in the 6th.

If'n it's Carolina and the Catamounts, it's Western Carolina.

TTom

    Yeah Tom, sorry about that, you're right.  WC now leads ASU 6-4 in the
    bottom of the 7th.

re: Western Carolina.

They're one of my accounts. Nice school. Beautiful country, in the
highlands of NC's Blue Ridge Mountains.

TTom

    ASU now leads WC 7-6 in the 8th.

    ASU Coach Jim Brock died last night.  He left behind a 23-year legacy
    at Arizona St., including 11 conference titles and 2 World Series
    Championships.  He had also coach 168 players that signed pro
    contracts, with 63 reaching the MLB level.
    
    Other notable achievements:
    
    - only coach in baseball history to have won national titles at the
      American Legion, Jr. College, and NCAA Division 1 levels.
    - Coached Mesa Community College to national titles in '70 and '71 and
      was the Jr. College COY both seasons.
    - PAC-10 COY 5 times in the leagues 16 years and won the conference in
      '81, '82, '84, '88, and '93.  Missed being the first team to repeat,
      since ASU last did it, this season by 1 game.
    - He won 1100 games while with ASU, ranking him 7th on the all-time
      NCAA Division 1 list.
    - Average 47.8 wins per season, 2nd best in NCAA history among coaches
      with at least 1000 wins.
    - National COY in '77, '81, '84, and '88.

>    ASU Coach Jim Brock died last night.  He left behind a 23-year legacy
>    at Arizona St., including 11 conference titles and 2 World Series
>    Championships.  He had also coach 168 players that signed pro
>    contracts, with 63 reaching the MLB level.
    
    Damn.  RIP, Coach Brock.  It just doesn't seem that it could be a complete 
    coincidence that Brock made it through to the final week of his team's 
    season before passing away.  You know that these guys will never forget
    his impact on their lives...
    
    glenn
    

    Arizona was picked by the PAC coaches to win that conference.  USC was
    #2, UCLA #3.  ASU was picked #7.
    
    Rumor has it that SI has picked Arizona as #1 for their NCAA preseason
    issue.

    Kudos to UDub for bringing some respectability back to the PAC.

Hey, Mike,

Oregon prevailed against mighty Iowa, too.

TTom

	No word on the mighty Colorado State Rams defeating Arizona?  CSU
	is 6-0 and ranked in the top 15 for the first time in umpteen years.
	I did a "dir/ti=PAC" and saw the first note.  "The best conference in
	the land" or something like that.  Looks like the WAC has taken that
	over, right Heiser?

	Kevin

     Arizona used to play in the WAC.....or was that Arizona St?

>    <<< Note 37.364 by ELMAGO::BENBACA "No QUANTUM leap for Albuquerque!" >>>
>
>     Arizona used to play in the WAC.....or was that Arizona St?


	I think both of them did.

	Kevin

ASU and UofA both moved from the WAC to the PAC in about the 1977-1978 
time frame.

    Don't be knockin' me about some team from Mexico.  ASU is the only
    PAC-10 team in AZ.  Nice come from behind win over Stanford last
    weekend for the young Droods(tm).

    
    UA suffers from the disease the NU used to have whenever they played a
    ranked team.  Lookit the creampuff, made for #1 schedule they had/have.  
    They coulda had a cakewalk ala BYU to the MNC, and blew it.
    
    brews
    
    

    ASU became the first team this season to score over 10 points against
    Washington St.  Too bad the 21 points were still a TD behind the
    Cougars.  

    That was quite a nice whuppin' the Droods handed BYU up in Utah.
    
    And the Nogales Tech Cats lose AGAIN!

    
    	So who is going to the Rose?  Oregon?  Quack!
    
    Claybone

    Oregon goes if they don't lose again.  They play ASU this week.

>    Oregon goes if they don't lose again.  They play ASU this week.

Not true. Oregon has to win all of its league games and Washington St has
to lose at least 1. The Cougars beat them mighty Ducks in their
head-to-head battle.

Right now, in alphabetical order, the top o' the PAC looks like:

	Arizona		4-1 lost to Oregon
	Oregon		4-1 lost to Washington St
	Southern Cal	4-1 lost to Oregon
	Washington St	4-1 lost to Arizona

Kinda nice and in the family, eh?

TTom

    Arizona will play USC in Southern Cal within the next couple weeks.

Oregon seems to have the easier road just looking at them compared to
Washington St.

The Ducks play Arizona St, at Stanford, at Oregon St.
The Cougars play Southern Cal, at Oregon St, Washington.

TTom

   Let's see, Oregan and Penn State in the Rose Bowl..

   This is definately a game that the whole country wants to see in the
   Grandaddy of all bowl games. Ticket scalpers will surely get top dollar
   for tickets.....

   NOT.

	Keith

>   Let's see, Oregan and Penn State in the Rose Bowl..
    
    Might be more exciting than that Nebraska-Colorado rivalry, Keith...
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    	C'mon Keith, any team who's fans attend the game with duck
    	call in hand is a fun team.  Quack!  :*)
    
    Claybone

  You guys are right, the Lions chasin the Ducks in the Rose bowl will be 
  some spectacle. Should we just call it the game of the century now or
  wait until they play it ?

	Keith

>  You guys are right, the Lions chasin the Ducks in the Rose bowl will be 
>  some spectacle. Should we just call it the game of the century now or
>  wait until they play it ?
    
    Well, I'll enjoy it, even if Penn State does fall out of voting favor.  
    I'm one of those countless tens of millions whose sanity is questioned 
    every year when the Rose Bowl puts up the highest TV ratings (the Fiesta 
    Bowl is only occasionally a better game anyway) of all the bowls.  Joe
    Paterno finally going to the Rose Bowl will be a special event, and
    new teams in PSU and either Oregon (last Rose Bowl 1958) or Wash St (1931) 
    will bring fan presences to match Wisconsin's last year.  The game may 
    well be a blowout but going in it's not going to be that much less 
    interesting than any of the other projected games with the exception 
    of Nebraska-Miami. Florida-Notre Dame? Texas-Alabama? Colorado-Florida St? 
    In any case, no one is getting what they _really_ want, the MNC bowl...
    
    glenn
    

    Enjoy it while you can.  The Droods are gonna own it next season.

  Yea, I'd love to see the Lions and Huskers mix it up also. It would be a
  monster event for college football and TV entertainment. Unfortunately, we 
  gotta live with the status quo. 
  
  BTW, if'n the Ducks make it to the grandaddy of all bowl games, I'll pick 
  PSU by 10. When I say 10, I mean 10 touchdowns.

	Keith

    USC is probably playing the best ball right now in the PAC.  They would
    still probably lose to UCLA though, as pathetic as they are this year.

    
    Trojans wil go to the Rose Bowl, you heard it here first.
    
    Go Coach Robbie !
    
    - acp

    re.386
    And get KILLED by Penn State!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

I kinda of think that the winner of the USC-Arizona game this weekend will
wind up in the Rose Bowl.  Whoever it is will be whupped on, but I think that
PSU vs Arizona would be the closest (best) game.  Of course I'm still hoping
for Arizona to be primed to go, having only to beat ASU turkey weekend, and
then...  revenge time.  :)

Greg

	So which of the two, Stanford or Oregon State, is going to beat
	Oregon ?  If Oregon wins out, they go to the Rose Bowl.

	Where are Oregon's last games played?  And are you sure that 
	if Oregon and Arizona both win out, that Oregon has more 'points'
	than Arizona?  

    
    It's being widely reported that Oregon now controls its own destiny-- 
    I assume because of the head-to-head sweep Oregon owns against USC and 
    Arizona.
    
    glenn
    

    
    	I see Ice is still stinging from that whuppin' PSU laid on 
    	his Buckeyes...
    
    Claybone

	Oregon owns head-to-head against both Arizona and USC.  Contrary
	to what was published earlier, the "points" system applies in a
	3-way tie only if one team does not have a win against both the other
	teams (i.e., each team was 1-1 against the other two, or if two of
	the teams did not meet each other).  This doesn't apply, since Oregon
	has played and beaten the other two.  Oregon travels to Stanford, then
	plays OSU at home.

Re: -.1

Thanks for clearing that up.  I was under the impression that it was 
simply; first conference record, then points system, and then head-to-head.
I should have known that nothing is that simple...  Oregon is the team
to beat. 

    I happened upon the Sports Illustrated College Preview and it had
    Arizona as pre-season #1 and no mention of Oregon anywhere.  Oregon
    State was mentioned at about #50.
    
    Personnally I'd like to see these webbed, wonders of the west and root
    like hell for them against the Nittany Lions 

            
>    Personnally I'd like to see these webbed, wonders of the west and root
>    like hell for them against the Nittany Lions 
    
    Oregon's defense has come together and really does appear to be
    semi-legitimate, as good as anybody else's out in the wild Pac-10, 
    possibly including Arizona's much-hyped Desert Swarm.  That's the 
    kind of team it'll take to beat Penn St, one with a strong defense.  I 
    think Penn St will get such a test next weekend in Illinois, where
    if they don't prepare themselves better than they did against Indiana 
    (it showed early, before Penn St wore the Hoosiers out) they could get
    beat.  That game might be an indication of what the Rose Bowl will look
    like; whether a low-scoring team with a strong defense can hang in
    there...
    
    glenn
    

    I was thinking Oregon would coast through the next two games and get
    that trip to the rose bowl but after seeing what Stanford did to
    Washington it may not be that easy.

    Arizona chokes away the Roses again.

    And what happened to the Sun Devils this week???
    

    they were trounced by UCLA.  

    Kareem is rumored to be a candidate for the vacant USC coaching job.
    
    ASU has a good shot at a 20-win season this year.  They'll face a good
    test in the Maui Classic next week.

    That's an awfully big spread in the UA-ASU game.  I'm not sure UA could
    handle all 15 of those points.  They couldn't even handle a dozen roses!
    
    ASU pasted Texas A&M in the Maui Tournament yesterday, 103-73.  They
    get the Michigan-Tulane winner next.

Wow.  It's been awhile since I've been optimistic about a Sun Devil
team, but Frieder's squad looked good last night.  It really is the
healthiest team he's had since his arrival.  A bit of a scare when
Mario Bennett went down after an inside pass/jam, but it was only a
slightly sprained ankle... thankfully not the ACL revisited.

Tonight will be a test against the Terps, Bennett was the largest starter
last night at 6'9".  After tonight, their toughest non-conference opponent
is OSU w/ Big Country here in Tempe.

For us, just making the dance would be an improvement... but dawn may be
rising.

    They didn't just beat Michigan, they *TROUNCED* the #13 Wolverines
    79-62!!!  Maryland beat Utah 90-78 to setup the championship game
    tonight at 8pm (MST).  Should be a good game against Joe Smith & Co. 
    Indiana is fighting it out for 4th against Tulane.
    
    The first half ended with ASU-Michigan tied at 38.  The Droods came out
    in the second half with a full-court press and went on an 13-0 tear and
    never looked back.  
    
    ASU is now 4-0 lifetime vs. Michigan (3 in hoops and the '86 Rose Bowl).
    
    Mike

    Should be a good game tonight.  Utah looked good until Van Horn(?)
    fouled out.  Smith low couldn't be stopped.
    
    Finally a Terp team to cheer about (this year)!
    
    UMDan

 Should be a good game tonight. I haven't seen ASU yet but the turnovers
 they've been causing certainly stick out and grap you. Marland looks 
 great though. They'll be right there with the dreaded Tarheals for the
 ACC crown. In fact I agree with Doug that they'll win it.

 mike

    
    
      Mike....
    
      Nothing about the UA ASU game on Friday?  Maybe you should do the
    Droods a favor and explain to them that there is 4 quarters in a game
    not 3. :*)
    
    Jerry

    Yeah they lost, but did very well for a 15pt dog.  I said a week ago
    that they would cover.  The football team finished with its worst
    record in decades.  Fans half-expected it though.  With the recruits
    coming in and the experience this young team now has, next year should
    be a blue chip year.
    
    But how about the Drood hoopsters!!!  They spanked Michigan and
    Maryland last week to win the Maui Tournament.  They've come out of
    nowhere to #13 in the new USA Today poll!
    
    Mike

   >  With the recruits    coming in and the experience this young team now
   > has, next year should    be a blue chip year.
    
    and you accused me of wishful thinking?  THis team is in trouble for a
    couple years, I think.  Snyder will start looking for a new job by this
    time next year.
    
    brews 

    I don't think so Brews.  They have barely a handful of seniors starting
    on both sides of the ball.  Everyone, including the media, was saying
    in August to write off this season because next season will be the team
    to watch.
    
    Mike

    
    Yabbut, they didn't beat anyone, and didn't look good in their losses
    (except maybe the UA loss, but everyone now knows how overrated they
    were).  
    
    brews

    They pasted BYU in Utah when they were ranked.

	Looks like Bill Walsh is out at Stanford, by his own choice apparently.

	Kevin

    His players had a meeting with the AD and revolted against him.  They
    didn't like the direction Walsh was taking the program.

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A r i z o n a             S t a t e               U n i v e r s i t y

You mean the hoops team that lost to New Mexico. Choke would be a better
description.

At one point, with the scores in the 60s, them ASUers were up by 6. About
1 minute later they was down by 6. After being favored by 4 or so, they
went on to lose 87-71.

Dean, and his ilk, woulda been proud of this fold.

TTom

    The Pit is never an easy place to win and I believe NM is ranked as
    well.  ASU will remain in the top 20.

>    The Pit is never an easy place to win and I believe NM is ranked as
>    well.  

As someone in here likes to write, bzzzzt, wrong answer, but thanks for
playing. New Mexico is at the very bottom of other teams receiving votes.
Perhaps, in a manner of indistinction, you are thinking of #21 New Mexico
State?

And oh yes, the Pit is the place for any Pack fans. Site of Jim Valvano's
miracle of '83.

> ASU will remain in the top 20.

They are currently at #16. 

TTom

    NMS is ranked, but NM only received 6 votes for a ranking.

Hey, we caint have any of this cordial apology stuff here in SPROTS.

I demand a_apology for apologizing.

TTom

    Okay Tom, sorry.
    
    How's this?
    
    F O A D!

    I happened to watch the ASU-New Mexico game, and it was a very
    entertaining contest.  ASU led by as many as 14 in the first half, but
    the Lobos made a nice run to close to within a couple of baskets at
    halftime.  Second half is back and forth until with about 9 minutes
    left, NM coach Bliss gets T'd up after one of their players gets pushed
    OB and there is no call.  The Pit goes ballistic, the team gets
    psyched, ASU hits one FG in the next 6 minutes, and  the Lobos roar
    to the victory.
    
    ASU seemed to tank it once they lost the lead, and Frieder had no clue
    how to stop the bleeding.
    
    NAZZ

    Super Mario got mauled quite a few times too without a call, but that's
    par for the course in the Pit.

    Nice whine Mike!
    
    NAZZ

    I wasn't whining, Silver Fox, I was relating reality to ya!

    Da Droods move up 3 spots in the polls to #13 without even playing a
    game!  Maybe we should take the rest of the season off and we'll be in
    the top 5!
    
    Drood wrasslin is #5 in the country.
    
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A r i z o n a             S t a t e               U n i v e r s i t y
    

dru-id (also Dru-id) n.  [Lat. druides, druids, prob. of Celtic orig] A member
  of an order of priests in ancient Britain and Gaul who appear in Welsh and
  Irish legend as prophets and sorcerers.


I can see the relationship to the Celts... but being a newcomer to this 
esteemed forum, I missed how it got connected to the Sun Devils.  Is it
a Heisermainism?  Please help.

    Droods were devil worshipers.  I think 'Sawmain came up with it during a
    Halloween debate years ago.

>    Droods were devil worshipers.  I think 'Sawmain came up with it during a
>    Halloween debate years ago.


Yes.

Actually, the evolution came from the Halloween debate, combined with
a veiled reference to the proscribed "Dwarf Tossing" topic.

I wrote something about little lawn statues for Halloween, and I remember
using the term Droods.  Kev or Jake asked if the statues could be tossed,
something like that.

Then Denny Rieu starting using the term a lot, and the rest was history.

Since the Arizona team is nicknamed Sun Devils, Mike calls them the Droods....


'Saw

  >> Droods were devil worshipers.  

     They were? I think you're wrong (again).
    

Yeah, didn't the Druids have something to do with trees and whatnot?

    Droods were extreme pagans into witchcraft and blood sacrifices - from
    animals to humans.  They sacrificed to Samhain, which is Satan.

    I don't know where you are looking it up but Caesar simply classified
    the Druids of Gaul and Britain as religious ministers of the Celts.
    
    They of course had to be eliminated when Christianity spread thru the
    area.  The classification of devil worshippers was applied to the early
    christians.
    
    There is a order of druidry in England and this Country but it is a
    charitable organization.  Tree worship shouldn't be knocked unless
    you've tried it.

    Bill, don't get wierd on us now.

    
    They'll be lucky to get a #4, Mike.  They gots one more loss a-coming.
    
    brews

    
    and I hit it right on wif my prediction!!, baby!

    Oregon is continuing it's outstanding year in sports by making the
    tourny for the first time in 30-something years.  Let's see if they can
    win the first game Thursday against Texas.  I'll be rootin' for 'em!
    
    Glen.

    So much for that prediction, Mike.
    
    FINAL SCORE:  Maimi (Ohio) 71, Arizona 62
    
    NAZZ

    
  >> Mario's line was 39min, 16pts, 4asts, 8rebs.  Not too bad for being
  >> double and triple teamed all night (which they couldn't do if ASU had
  >> an outside threat).
    
     Not bad numbers but not super and certainly much less than ASU needed.
     The double and triple teaming must have happened after CBS cutaway
     because from what I saw Bennett was just up against superior talent.

    How did Antoine Walker look,do?  Pitino hadn't used him much prior to
    lastnight and I didn't stay up for either game.

>    Congrats to the best team in the land from the toughest conference in
>    the land!

UCLA did a great job and deserves to be called the best in the country.
But the rest of the Pac10 lived down to its reputation.

>    Congrats to the best team in the land from the toughest conference in
>    the land!

And this from a guy who lives in Arizona.

TTom

You mean the team that you don't go watch but nonetheless claim as yours?

TTom

    Although it was a well officiated game and well played by UCLA much of
    their success did depend on the officials interpretations fitting in
    with UCLA strategy.  What was virtually a home court for the Bruins
    obviously didn't hurt.
    
    I happen to agree with the way officials called the game but two areas
    were judged in UCLA's favor (this is only second half viewing): 
    
    		Zidek used the Wooden patented method of two hands up
    vertically to stop Corliss and when Corliss went into the hands no
    whistle was blown (a lot of "good" no whistles).
    		Bailey especially among others was very agressive on the
    offensive boards and there were several no calls (over the back) (not)
    made.
    		The Arkansas attempt to draw offensive charges also went by
    the boards.
    
    In another venue with different officials UCLA would have been made to
    adapt and Zidek especially would be given the Camby treatment(Ryan was
    at it again in glove - did he see the UMass - OSU game?)

What Zidek was doing was perfect, and he should never
be called for it.  It's called the "principle of
verticality".  The defensive player is entitled to the
space directly above him.  I'm sure the explanation is
a little more detailed than that, but that's the gist of
it.

Even after a stinker of a shooting day on his part (every
day is a bad shooting day for me), I'm still a big Corliss 
Williamson fan.

It was pretty refreshing to sit down, watch a *big* basketball
game, and have it cleanly decided without too much controversy
about the refereeing.  There was absolutely no doubt as to who
the better team was, especially given that UCLA didn't have
their starting point guard.

Roland

    Get this....UCLA attempted 7 treys.......Arkansas attempted 28.

>                          -< This May Tell the Story >-

>    Get this....UCLA attempted 7 treys.......Arkansas attempted 28.


That, and the fact that Corliss Williamson sucked.

>    ASU was picked to finish 9th in the PAC this season, ...

By whom? You wouldn't be sandbaggin us there, Mike, now would you?

Who's picked to win the PAC?

TTom

>    Everyone seems to think that
>    Robinson has restored USC to glory.

  He's done a great job of recruiting the last couple of years. But there
  are lingering stories about some of the recruits and maybe USC being
  under investigation. The rumor is that one or more recruits paid 
  other people to take the SAT test and then signed their name at the bottom.

  Who knows how all of this will shake out. 

  USC has the talent but so far it hasn't translated into restored glory.

	Keith

>    In celebration of the 20th anniversary of being robbed of the MNC, the
>    '75 team had a reunion with Coach Kush.  This year's Droods dumped
>    their old WAC nemesis in the process, BYU.

     Unless you think BYU was deserving of their title, ASU was a deserving #2.

>    In celebration of the 20th anniversary of being robbed of the MNC, the
>    '75 team had a reunion with Coach Kush.

How many of them did he hit?

    
    	Kush is lucky one of his *men* didn't crappie flop his skinny
    	little butt.
    
    Claybone

>    ASU was the only undefeated team in '75 and should've been the champs.

Papa Joe and Penn St used to sing this tired litany until he bellied up
to the bar and actually won one.

>    Kush hit all of them.  If you've played football and was never hit by
>    the coach, your team probably was just as lousy and unsuccessful (i.e.,
>    losers).  It takes men to play a men's game.

I guess beating kids is a time honored tradition out there. So Mike, are
your kids losers or do you beat 'em?

TTom

    >   Kush hit all of them.  If you've played football and was never hit by
    >   the coach, your team probably was just as lousy and unsuccessful i.e.,
    >    losers.  It takes men to play a men's game.
    
    THIS IS TOTAL AND COMPLETE BS. A coach (or any adult) that has to rely
    on hitting anyone to get there message across is a loser. You can yell
    and scream at people but to rely on physical violence proves to me that
    this person is not a good coach. If my college coach punched me I would
    have hit him back. Kush was a loser.
    
    Mike

>    ASU was the only undefeated team in '75 and should've been the champs.
    
     So then you do think BYU earned its national title as well.

     '75 ASU didn't play anyone until they won in the Fiesta Bowl.

Mike,

I heard this in a blurb on ESPN. Unbelievable!~

As for having assistant coaches that relate to the players, that has been
a trend for quite a while at most places. Hail, even Dean has Phil Ford
on the bench, although his primary role seems to be placating Vince
Carter about why he's on the bench.

TTom

 
     >> The women should have equal humiliation.
    
        And this would accomplish exactly what?

Mike,

Aren't these guys - at least some of 'em - on the Prop48 or whatever
program?

TTom

    
  >> They receive the same blemish that the players now live with, the
  >> humiliation from the media, and possible school rejection.  This is an
  >> equal rights society and in too many cases like this the males receive
  >> 100% of the blemishes.
    
     In this case the males were monumentally stupid and are paying the
     price. Give me about twenty pounds of diced onions and I might be
     able to work up a tear for 'em. The players had their fun, got caught 
     and are paying the price. Too bad. Publishing the girls names wouldn't 
     get them tossed out of school. They ain't in school and they don't ex-
     actly sound like Radcliffe material. It might cause them some humil-
     iation but I'd hardly call that justice. The best thing that could 
     happen is that someone in the future will be faced with a similar 
     situation and remember these three clowns from ASU and then do the 
     right thing. It's unfortunate but the players put themselves in that
     situation. Of course, it's always easier to blame someone else.
    

    >>  Sure the players were stupid, but their mates were too.
     
        So they should be made to wear the scarlet letter? These
        players aren't 'sacrificial lambs'. You might argue that
        the legal charges being dropped should get the same amount 
        of press as the charges being brought but these guys broke
        several sets of rules and now it's up to the university
        to determine the extent of their punishment. Humiliating 
        a couple of girls isn't going to serve anyone. That's just 
        being vindictive.
    

    
>    Then what should be done to make sure the girls don't make the same
>    mistake again as well?
    
    Perhaps a public relations campaign on the vices of hanging around
    Arizona State athletes.  I'd suggest a motto of "Keep Your Daughters
    'way from the Droods!"
    
    On a related note, I saw where Nebraska Marty's bud, the totally 
    completely reformed, retrained and refitted Christian Peter got 
    hisself into another sexual scrape, and pleaded co contest (nolo
    contendre, or maybe nolo comprende, is apparently the Husker fight
    song now).  Of course Peter has no remaining eligibility, so it's
    okay for Dr. Tom to morally condemn him...)
    
    glenn
    

    
>    Today was media day for the PAC in L.A.  preseason picks of note are:
>    
>    1. USC
>    2. ASU
    
    Which only means that once again ASU will fail to meet
    ex-pec-torations...
    
    glenn
    

Nah, that's UA, Glenn.  ASU has done better than expectorated the last 
couple of years.