Conference hbahba::cam_sports

>Wow - that's *three* teams out of the Final Four that are lacking the
>requisite respect!

What has Pitino won?

TTom

The NCAA has a history of this kinda thing where the apparent 2 top teams
play each other in the semis only to play the winner of the "B" bracket.

For instance in 83 it was Big Bad Louisville vs Phi Slamma Jamma in the
semis while lowly NC State played lowlier Georgia. 

That's sorta like thised year. And the Kentucky-UMass winner better watch
out just like Houstin din't.

And oh yeah, what has Calipari or Pitino ever won...

My best guess is that a large amount of the missing respect is being
stored at Dean Smith's house.

TTom may also be correct in that some of it may also be at Rick "Brylcreem"
Pitino's house.

Wail, I aint got nothin against ol' Rick Pitino. Sure I mostly expected
him and Calipari to start swapping spit during their interview yesterday
but that was more a case of CBS searching for a clue than anything else.

How's this for lack of respect: As coaches go, I rate the final 4 coaches
as:

	Beoheim > That guy from Miss. St > Calipari > Pitino

TTom

  Arithia Franklin gets R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

  George

I don't know much about Arithia but Aretha Franklin was actually born on
this day in 19 and 42.

TTom

    
    > Here's respect:  Let's fast-forward to the obvious of who the 2 best
    > teams are and let UMASS and Kentucky play each other for the title.
    
    How is it obvious that Kentucky is one of the best when 2 of the
    other three teams in the FF have beaten them already.
    
    I'm sick of all this "Why aren't UMASS/Kentucky playing in the Final?"
    and "They should reseed the Final Four" talk, and will have a hearty
    laugh when the SU/Miss St. winner takes it all.
    
    - Sean

      re: -2
    
      Aren't you the guy that predicted that Georgetown would win?
      I'll give you some slack.  Although you seemed totally sure
      of yourself, I'll assume you were certain the margin of victory
      would be a single point.
    
      On that basis, you were only off by 25.
    
      You haven't bought any bridges lately, have you???

Are you guys talking respect or college hoops.  If you're talking college
hoops, why pray tell did you waste my disk space with new topic on it?  


8^)

    	Don Corleone had respect before both Otis Redding and Aretha
    Franklin.
    
    				  /Don

    Wrong - first it was Otis, then Aretha, then Godfather.  I think the
    years are 1965, 1967, and 1972.
    
    NAZZ

>Wail, I aint got nothin against ol' Rick Pitino. Sure I mostly expected
>him and Calipari to start swapping spit during their interview yesterday

The good thing about Kentucky-UMass as a semifinal is that one of these
abhorrent slicksters doesn't even make it to the Championship Game.

The bad thing about Kentucky-UMass as a semifinal is that one of these
abhorrent slicksters does.

    
    yabbut the good thing could be that Boeheim beats one of 'em... :^)
    

>    yabbut the good thing could be that Boeheim beats one of 'em... :^)

Stop being a tease, Sean.  I don't even want to think of the joy that
would bring.

    RE:  271.15-17
    
         And you guys wonder where Nazz's "irrational contempt for the Big
    East" comes from.  Last time I looked, Coach Cal was 7-2 versus the BE
    with both losses coming when half his team were retreads from the Ron
    Gerlufsen era.  But it is becoming more and more obvious by the year
    why the BE will go to extraordinary lengths to duck his teams.
    
         HTH.
    
    Russ

    
    Syrcuse is not UConn - they went head to head with UMass early
    on in Hawaii.  So did BC.  Both lost, but they didn't duck the
    challenge.
    

        The only, ONLY Big East team not to duck UMass during the Calipai
    era has been Pittsburg.  Calhoun ended a 100 game series that began in
    1907, BC was shamed by Ted Sarandis into playing in the Fleet Center
    (the other BC matchup was by chance in a Holiday Tourney), Syracuse
    has played UMass twice, in the NCAA's and in an 8 team Holiday Tourney,
    and Georgetown, of course, played UMass last weekend in the NCAA's.
    
         I do give BC credit for agreeing to continue the Fleet Center
    matchups, but only after much prodding from the local media and Bob
    Marcum.
    
         Let's get the facts straight.
    
    Russ

>                -< The BE has rarely played UMass willingly!!! >-
>         Let's get the facts straight.

Be careful here Russ.  Other than BC and UConn, do you *know* that
Cal-abhor-i has tried to schedule other BE schools ?  Syracuse has no
reason to duck UMass.  They don't duck the A-10 in general, as Temple,
LaSalle, St. Joe's and GW have all made trips to The Dome in recent years.

And for the record, my comments on Johnny Slickmeister have nothing
to do with the A-10, which I have a healthy respect for (while still
believing it's a notch below the BE).  I started to dislike Pitino
when he started to look like Larry Brown, only with a snake-oil
shpeel.  I started to dislike "Coach Cal" when I noticed he looked
like Pitino...same shpeel.

    
    Just because coach Cal shows up, all these big league teams
    are supposed to take on UMass - you have to earn those games,
    and coach Cal has with SU and BC.
    
    Tell me that if BU all of a sudden gets a new coach, Calipari
    will schedule games with them "just in case" it turns out that
    the new coach will be successful and Cal can't be accuse of
    "ducking" BU (or whatever little school is making the move
    to the big time).
    
    Things take time - UMass is there - stop the martyr bit.
    
    - Sean

         Come on guys, Calipari has 10 non conference games to work with
    every year.  He calls on ALL of the major conferences for games.  He 
    rarely recruits nationally, getting 90% of his recruits from 
    Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and 
    Maryland.  Given his marketplace for athletes, which league do you 
    think he called first?  I'd be willing to bet that he's been calling 
    Syracuse, St.John's, Villanova and Georgetown for years!
    
         Has he "earned" big games?  I believe only UConn has a better record
    over the past three or four years.  What criteria does the Big East
    require before it will schedule a non-conference "big game"?
    
    Russ 
        

    The criteria is called "Money talks, basketball walks".  The Big East
    was set up to take advantage of an accelerating market spawned off the
    interest Magic and Larry drew in 1979.  Everything fed off the other:
    the big tv contract fed the recruiting fed ncaa success fed image fed
    the next big contract.  Note that word image.  Did I say the word pie.
    The BE wanted a very big piece.
    
    UMass is not only a basketball rival but a big money rival.  They had
    to do it the very hard way but now they're two away from having DONE
    it, baby.  It's going to be just as difficult to schedule UMass in the
    next five years as it has been the BE darlings.
    
    Oh did the word Appearance Fees get mentioned?

>    I'd be willing to bet that he's been calling 
>    Syracuse, St.John's, Villanova and Georgetown for years!

Meaning that you're as much in the dark about it as the rest of us...

>    over the past three or four years.  What criteria does the Big East
>    require before it will schedule a non-conference "big game"?

Whoa Russ, when I see Kentucky and Arizona on the SU schedule, ducking
BIG games doesn't come to mind.  UMass isn't the only big game in town.
Let's see how "big" they are when they lose their starting frontline
after this season.

Cal-abhor-i is on the front page of USA Today, and is quoted as saying,

	"It's not life and death !"

There's an article inside, and here are some quotes I enjoyed:

	"I don't *know* if making the Final Four has any significance.
	 IT DOESN'T TO ME.  If it did, I'd be sitting on the rims after
	 beating Georgetown."

	"I'm teaching life skills and keeping winning and losing in
	 perspective."

	"We're still little UMass....Until we win a national title, this
	 is going to happen.  Respect is earned, and we haven't earned it
	 yet."


This guy's mouth runs so fast he doesn't even hear his own contradictions.
He should watch tape of his sideline antics, if he really believes he's
got a handle on winning and losing.  Or get John Chaney's thoughts on the
matter.

I wonder how he works his outside contracts into his "life skills" lectures ?

Is anybody out there, who's not a UMass alumnus, buying what this guy's
peddling ?

>	"I'm teaching life skills and keeping winning and losing in
>	 perspective."

Too bad his guys can't read.




>	"We're still little UMass....Until we win a national title, this
>	 is going to happen.  Respect is earned, and we haven't earned it
>	 yet."

Lou Holtz of the east.


>I wonder how he works his outside contracts into his "life skills" lectures ?

In very small, easily understandable words.


>Is anybody out there, who's not a UMass alumnus, buying what this guy's
>peddling ?


I'm not.

But it's not a UMASS thing either.  Donyell Marshall went to the NBA.  I have
friends from UCONN who know him -- Donyell is dumber than a stump, but worse,
never tried very hard (and wasn't pushed) because he figured he'd burn up the
NBA.  

I think the biggest life skills lecture of all would be to take gander at
someone like Donyell ("Don't you know who I am, I'm the most famous person in
this state" -- exact quote) Marshall and his NBA career.  One can only hope
that Donyell has a good accountant putting that money away someplace where he
can't blow it all.....


'Saw

    I'm not an alumnus, but have lived in Mass. my whole life.  Apparently
    you guys are just envious of the guy.
    
    He's teaching kids all about hard work, team work and academics.  Three
    of the most important aspects of life.  Dispute this with real numbers 
    instead of your own personal opinions and maybe you'll have an audience.
    
    He had the best player in the country collapse for reasons unknown. 
    For all we know Marcus Camby could be like a son to him.  You don't
    think that puts winning and losing in perspective?  Do you think Red
    Auerbach or Larry Bird would give up their rings if Reggie Lewis could
    have his life back?  IT'S A *GAME*, NOTHING MORE!
    
    					Steve

         The Big East Anti-Christ received kudos from St.Joe's Coach
    Phil Martelli for bringing his team to the Garden last night to cheer
    on Hawks in the NIT, and for speaking to the St.Joe's team before
    the game.
    
         The ESPN announcers also mentioned that Coach Cal was asked on
    at halftime, but declined, "wishing to keep the focus on St. Joe's on
    their night".
    
         Joe and Roland, your parochial spin on the above?
    
    Russ
                                                          

    
    	Maybe Coach Cal is worried about the one glaring stat that sticks
    out. In the history of the NCAA, no champion has won more then 36 games
    in a season. Umass will have to be 37-1 in order to win the
    championship.
    
    Ron

>         Joe and Roland, your parochial spin on the above?

Russ, as Agassi says, "Image is everything".  As he rushed to The Program's
bedside in Buffalo, he made sure he said, "I'd do this for any of you
guys"....   :^)


Hey, Steve, I'm glad you set us straight with all your facts and figures
in support of Coach Cal.  I've checked you in at:  "non-UMass alumnus,
believes everything coach says".

And no, I'm not *envious* of Calipari.  Why would I be ?  I'm not a
struggling Div 1 coach with a losing record.  And the coach for my
favorite school has taken a bunch of nobodies (save John Wallace)
to the same place near-god Calipari has taken UMass.

I dislike guys like Calipari, Pitino, Holtz because to me they aren't
what collegiate sports are all about.  They profess to be, with all
these "life skills" and "we've had a great season even if we don't
win it all" comments, yet everything about them says they're not.
Calipari has been quoted as saying, "Marcus will be better off
returning to UMass next year."  Pitino encouraged an underclassman
to turn pro so he could get him out of the way of some stud he just
recruited.  The kid didn't even get drafted by the NBA.  And we all
know the story of Holtz' telephone call to that kid who chose Fla St
over ND.  These guys are out for themselves, PERIOD !  Anyone who
believes otherwise is a fool.

>         Joe and Roland, your parochial spin on the above?

How did I get included in this one?

And "parochial" coming from you makes me smile... :-)

    My spin would be
    
    	Did St JO's win by a point?

    
      UConn fans and Syracuse fans ragging on Calipari. It couldn't
     be that you're jealous, boys, could it? Of course not, it's 
     just a difference of opinion. Never mind that UConn, who laugh-
     ably actually thought that they had a shot at the national title,
     got the dog snot slapped out of them by MSU and now has to watch
     the hated Minutemen of UMass get the national spotlight in prime-
     time in the game that everyone is calling The Game Of The Year.
     Get a nice comfy chair, fellas and watch how the game should be
     played. Or better yet have your women teach you. But you Husky fans 
     aren't jealous. And Tammi Faye Baker is a natural beauty. As for the 
    'Cuse fans, who knows what the hell they're thinking. They'll even rag 
     their own coach down until he gets 'em to the Final Four then he's 
     Clair Bee, Red Auerbach and John Wooden rolled into one. Let him lose 
     another game though and he's a bum and he always was and always will be. 
     Coach Cal ain't perfect. No doubt about it. But he does seem to be
     genuinely concerned and affectionate towards his kids. He doesn't
     tolerate nonsense or a lack of discipline. His kids aren't going 
     to solve world hunger or win any Nobel Prizes but neither will
     Coach Cal ever tolerate a Lawrence Phillips or Christian Peters.
     If he can get his kids to graduate, keep their noses clean and 
     get to the Final Four now and then, it's enough for me.

>    
>    He had the best player in the country collapse for reasons unknown. 
>    For all we know Marcus Camby could be like a son to him.  You don't
>    think that puts winning and losing in perspective?  Do you think Red
>    Auerbach or Larry Bird would give up their rings if Reggie Lewis could
>    have his life back?  IT'S A *GAME*, NOTHING MORE!
>    
>    					Steve

Oops, I think we hit a nerve.


More novocaine please, Nurse.....


;^)

>    As for the 
>    'Cuse fans, who knows what the hell they're thinking. They'll even rag 
>     their own coach down until he gets 'em to the Final Four then he's 
>     Clair Bee, Red Auerbach and John Wooden rolled into one. Let him lose 
>     another game though and he's a bum and he always was and always will be.

Wrong.  He's a bum even if they win it all.

Did Clair Bee go on to star in "The Andy Griffith Show"?

>      UConn fans and Syracuse fans ragging on Calipari. It couldn't
>     be that you're jealous, boys, could it? 

Nope.

To illustrate my point I used a UConn alum.


>     Never mind that UConn, who laugh-
>     ably actually thought that they had a shot at the national title,
>     got the dog snot slapped out of them by MSU 

If they hadn't have believed all the hype about them, and played their game
they would have won that game.  As it was down the stretch the just didn't
get it done.  Don't give me all that crap about a better team.  UConn shot
32% from the floor.  If UMASS shoots 32% from the floor they lose that game
also.

>and now has to watch
>     the hated Minutemen of UMass get the national spotlight in prime-
>     time in the game that everyone is calling The Game Of The Year.

I don't hate the Minutemen.  I just don't like them.


>     Get a nice comfy chair, fellas and watch how the game should be
>     played. Or better yet have your women teach you. But you Husky fans 
>     aren't jealous. 

No, why would I be jealous?  Jealous implies that my life focuses around
a bunch of guys who are taller than me and much better than I at putting a 
round ball into a hoop with a net.  Sorry, but it doesn't.  It'd be nice
if UCONN was in the Final Four, but I'm not losing sleep over it, nor am
I drooling with anticipation.  I have more important things to worry about, 
and even if UCONN had made the final game, I wouldn't be able to watch it 
anyway.

As for the women, what's wrong with that?  I think that Auriema is a better
coach than Calhoun anyway....  When everything is on the line he always seems
to keep his troops calm and rallies them.  Calhoun hasn't yet been able to do
that in the big game.  

And why take a shot at the school because the Women won that national title
instead of the men?  


>     Coach Cal ain't perfect. No doubt about it. But he does seem to be
>     genuinely concerned and affectionate towards his kids. He doesn't
>     tolerate nonsense or a lack of discipline. His kids aren't going 
>     to solve world hunger or win any Nobel Prizes....

Amen, but I hear Marcus is doin' real well in that Music Appreciation class.


>     Coach Cal ever tolerate a Lawrence Phillips or Christian Peters.

That's where we agree.  No doubt about that.

But let's face it, and this was the point of my original premise.  ALL of these
programs are about big business.  

>Did Clair Bee go on to star in "The Andy Griffith Show"?


No, but her son Spelling went on to national fame....

>Hey, Steve, I'm glad you set us straight with all your facts and figures
>in support of Coach Cal.  I've checked you in at:  "non-UMass alumnus,
>believes everything coach says".
    
    Don't put words in my mouth.  I don't believe *everything* that anyone 
    says.  Myself included!
    
>These guys are out for themselves, PERIOD !  Anyone who
>believes otherwise is a fool.
 
    I don't know about Lou Holtz or Rick Pitino (and I would doubt it's true 
    about them as well), but I honestly don't believe John Calipari crafts 
    his every move to benefit himself and only himself.  If a Lou Roe, Harper 
    Williams, or Derek Kellogg told me otherwise, I'd believe them.  If I'm 
    supposed to believe it just because you say it, Joe, then I'd be a fool.
    
    					Steve

  >> If they hadn't have believed all the hype about them, and played 
  >> their game they would have won that game.  As it was down the stretch 
  >> the just didn't get it done.  Don't give me all that crap about a better 
  >> team.  UConn shot 32% from the floor.  If UMASS shoots 32% from the floor 
  >> they lose that game also.

      It ain't "crap", Saw. I could see that loss coming a mile away
      and said so more than once. Travis Naught is a major league stiff 
      and Moron Scheffer had one big game in him and he used it up before 
      UConn fell to MSU. MSU, btw, went into the tourney with a win over 
      Kentucky. You may have heard of Kentucky. MSU *did* have something to 
      do with UConn only shooting 32%. The better team won. UConn and their 
      fans were living a big lie if they thought that they really had a shot 
      at the title.


   >> And why take a shot at the school because the Women won that national 
   >> title instead of the men?  

      Aren't you the guy that was calling the men basketball players "freaks"? 
      What's that make Cara Wolters or even Rebecca Lobo? Women's basketball 
      is duller than a very dull thing but I guess if your men's team is
      a constant course of disappointment you need something to cling to.



    

    >Women's basketball is duller than a very dull thing
    
    
    Tommy, sounds like you're ready for writer's camp.  Those metaphors
    need stretching.

>      UConn fans and Syracuse fans ragging on Calipari. It couldn't
>     be that you're jealous, boys, could it?

I've picked on this guy since he started making a face for himself.
I've stepped it up recently 'cause he's in the spotlight now and
giving more evidence of why I don't like his type.

And wasn't it you Tommy who was picking on Pitino yesterday for
doin' the CYA-thing by saying he'll be satisfied with their season
even if they don't win ??  Well, your buddy's quoted saying the
same thing on the front page of USA Today.  They're cut out of the
same mold.  If you can get beyond that, because he's with your school,
fine.  But don't expect people not associated with UMass to not see it.

My criticism has not been aimed at the team's performance...in fact
I clearly stated (Monday ?) that they should win this thing with the
defense that they play.  I admire the intensity with which they play,
and respect that they've only lost one game all year.  But I'm hoping
they lose, and that has more to do with their coach than anything else.

|   >> And why take a shot at the school because the Women won that national 
|   >> title instead of the men?  
|
|      Aren't you the guy that was calling the men basketball players "freaks"? 
|      What's that make Cara Wolters or even Rebecca Lobo? Women's basketball 
|      is duller than a very dull thing but I guess if your men's team is
|      a constant course of disappointment you need something to cling to.

Yep.  All them tall people are freaks.  But most of the women aren't freaks.

Actually, what I notice when I watch basketball and compare men versus
women (and it's really rare that I watch either) I've noticed the women shoot
more, and the men jam more.

To me, shooting is more interesting than jamming.  

Of course I have to be completely honest, and say that somewhere in my youth
that was misspent reading and playing baseball and football and soccer, I
failed to become enamored of putting a round ball into a round hoop ten feet up
on a wall.  I honestly have to say that I have very often found basketball
itself to be, in your words, duller than dull.

I can't see what the big hype is about the NCAA tournament, or the NBA's
upcoming playoffs.  I just can't.  

Some people enjoy it, I have mild interest from time to time.


Yes, it's nice when your school wins a national title.  It would have been nice
for the men to go to the final four.  I don't believe they had a shot at all
the marbles, but I fully expected them to make it to the final four this year.

As for the women, hey, I've got no gripe because their women.  At least their
sport keeps score and isn't judged, which is more than I can say for figure
skating and pixie-gymnamstics.

Oh yeah the names' are Knight and Doron.  I believe I've done fairly well
refraining from calling Mr. Music Appreciation, Marcus Gumby, and the squid man
Calimari.  8^)


'Saw
    

    
    	John Calipari, Jim Boeheim, Jim Calhoun, Rick Pitino etc... 
    (Anybody who coaches at a Division 1 school, that has full scholorships)
    are all out for one thing and one thing only, and that is WINNING.
    
    
    Ron

    There is no way I'm getting into this LDUC, but I want to point out a
    couple of factual errors made along the way:
    
    1) Pitino may indeed have pushed Roderick Rhoades out the door, but the
    kid do not go undrafted by the NBA.  He pulled his name out of the
    draft, and transferred to Arizona State.  He sat out this year, and
    will play his senior season there next year.
    
    2) Calipari jeopardized his chance to win the national title last year
    when he kicked Michael Williams off the team.  If he had pulled a Tom
    Osborne, Williams could have been the difference in getting to the
    Final Four, especially considering the injury to Edgar Padilla that
    caused him to miss the Oklahoma State game.  But Calipari didn't do
    that.  He did what he thought was right, and ultimately may have cost
    UMass the national title last year.
    
    NAZZ

Swarmy, dude, swarmy.

But, the Osborne metaphor don't play. Williams shoulda beat up some girl
and then there'd be a real bad_apple to bad_apple comparison.

TTom

    >> -< A couple of facts in the swarm of rhetoric >-
    
    >> 2) Calipari jeopardized his chance to win the national title last year
    >> when he kicked Michael Williams off the team.  If he had pulled a Tom
    >> Osborne, Williams could have been the difference in getting to the
    >> Final Four, especially considering the injury to Edgar Padilla that
    >> caused him to miss the Oklahoma State game.  But Calipari didn't do
    >> that.  He did what he thought was right, and ultimately may have cost
    >> UMass the national title last year.
    
       That ain't fact that's pure conjecture and wholely without found-
       ation at that. Williams was as good a shooter in the clutch as anyone
       you're ever likely to see but he was half the reason UMass needed
       clucth baskets in the first place. A completely erratic player 
       who certainly wouldn't have stopped Big Country from abusing
       Camby or allowed UMass to beat a loaded UCLA or even to get to 
       the title game. When he left Roe and Camby among others expressed
       relief because he was disruptive on the court and off.
    
    

>    	John Calipari, Jim Boeheim, Jim Calhoun, Rick Pitino etc... 
>    (Anybody who coaches at a Division 1 school, that has full scholorships)
>    are all out for one thing and one thing only, and that is WINNING.

Amen, Ron.  The difference is I don't think I've heard Bummer and Calhoun
claim otherwise.

RE           <<< Note 271.45 by CAM::WAY "There's the devil to pay!" >>>

>As for the women, hey, I've got no gripe because their women.  At least their
>sport keeps score and isn't judged, which is more than I can say for figure
>skating and pixie-gymnamstics.

  Oops, the horses are getting restless. Looks like they are in for another
beating from the anti-figure skating group.

  I wasn't going to say anything about this but since you brought it up, the
Boston Globe reported that B.C.'s coach felt the outcome of last weekends UMASS
Georgetown would depend on how the game was called. He said that if they "let
them play" it would be to Georgetown's advantage because they are physical and
aggressive where as if they called the game tight it would be to UMASS's
advantage. Hmmm, The NCAA coach who took Bobby Knight out of the big dance
saying that basketball games can be won or lost depending on how the officials
call the game. I guess basketball isn't really a sport after all. 

  George

>    	John Calipari, Jim Boeheim, Jim Calhoun, Rick Pitino etc... 
>    (Anybody who coaches at a Division 1 school, that has full scholorships)
>    are all out for one thing and one thing only, and that is WINNING.

      That's an incredibly cynical point of view that I don't happen
      to share. Bobby Knight, John Thompson and even Calipari don't
      take a completely Machiavellian approach to the game. They do 
      care about their kids and they do care that they get an education. 
      If as you say coaches are just about winning then the Jerry Tarkanians
      would be the rule and not the exception. And they aren't the rule.
      Boeheim and Calhoun may not be the kind of self-promoters that
      Calipari is but their attitude towards their kids isn't very
      different. Their attitudes towards money is a different story.
    

    re .51
    
     Give it a rest, George. Stop with the pavlovian response every time
    someone so much as mentions figure skating in a negative light. It's
    not like 'Saw mentioned how the Globe article about Michele Kwan win-
    ning whatever figure skating title she just won started with a para-
    graph about makeup and hair and other superficialities and how critical
    they were to her success. 
    
     As for O'Brien's comments it was about "advantages" not about deciding
    the actual outcome. How games are reffed has an impact in every sport
    (small strike zone/ big strike zone, protect the qb/ let 'em play) though 
    it doesn't necessarily effect the final outcome and it certainly didn't 
    effect the outcome of the UMass-Georgetown game.

RE         <<< Note 271.53 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>     Give it a rest, George. Stop with the pavlovian response every time
>    someone so much as mentions figure skating in a negative light. 

  Ok let's see, are you the pot and am I the kettle or is it the other way
around? If there's a rule up there your note violates it before the photons are
dry. My policy in this file has been and will be that I never discuss figure
skating unless someone else brings it up, but I won't sit buy and watch cheap
shots without a response any more than you would.

>     As for O'Brien's comments it was about "advantages" not about deciding
>    the actual outcome. How games are reffed has an impact in every sport
>    (small strike zone/ big strike zone, protect the qb/ let 'em play) though 
>    it doesn't necessarily effect the final outcome and it certainly didn't 
>    effect the outcome of the UMass-Georgetown game.

  Fine, same thing in figure skating. The recent World Championship came down
to Kwan v. Chen Lu because they both skated perfectly clean and technically
difficult programs. Funny how Kwan who won landed 7 triples while Chen Lu
landed only 6. As for Ito, she got wiped out because she blew her triple /
double in the short program resulting in a mandatory deduction and stumbled
through the long program. 

  Same thing with basketball and figure skating,

    - The outcome depends mostly on how well the competitors perform.
    - The way the officials call the game has an impact on the outcome,
      sometimes decisive.
    - Both sports have major contributors recently saying that the way
      officials call the competition determines the result, Kwan for your
      side, O'Brien for mine.

  And for what it's worth, the Globe did report O'Brien as saying that the
way the game was called would be decisive.

  George

    
      I'm sorry I fell asleep in the middle of your note. You were
     saying...?

RE         <<< Note 271.55 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

1).
  >      I'm sorry I fell asleep in the middle of your note. You were
  >     saying...?

2).
         Say I have an antique bridge in New York that I will sell you real
         cheap.

3).
         No problem, the check's in the mail.

4).
         Honest, the dog ate my homework.

  George

Heard that Kwan was getting better reviews lately because she had 
been working on her make-up. I am NOT kidding.

What a sport.

RE   <<< Note 271.57 by SALEM::DODA "Workin' on mysteries without any clues" >>>

>Heard that Kwan was getting better reviews lately because she had 
>been working on her make-up. I am NOT kidding.

  Right, and I heard O'Brien say that the way the UMASS Georgetown game would
go would depend on how the officials called the game.

>What a sport.

  Ditto.

  George

Pitino on Calipari:

	"This is the only guy who gets away with telling his team that
	 *nobody* thinks they're any good.  If I ever said that I'd be
	 laughed at."


Calipari on Pitino:

	"This is opposite week for Rick.  Whatever he says, the opposite
	 is true.  If he says we aren't very deep, that means he thinks
	 we are.  If he says they're going to play zone, that means they're
	 going to play man."

George,

It was a quote from Kwan herself. She said that in order for her 
to move into the upper echelon she'd have to work on improving 
her make-up and attire.

daryll

    >> Right, and I heard O'Brien say that the way the UMASS Georgetown 
    >> game would go would depend on how the officials called the game.

       Jim O'Brien was flat out wrong because it was a physical game and
       yet UMass flat out smoked 'em in the second half.

RE   <<< Note 271.60 by SALEM::DODA "Workin' on mysteries without any clues" >>>

>It was a quote from Kwan herself. She said that in order for her 
>to move into the upper echelon she'd have to work on improving 
>her make-up and attire.

  Well, I haven't seen the "quote", only paraphrases of the quote and it's
not clear in what context that quote was given. I'd be curious to see exactly
what she said.

  In any case, she's been using the same makeup and costume for this entire
season and she just won the World Championship last week by skating a better
program than runner up Chen Lu from China so I guess that even if she said that
she was wrong. 

  Likewise, the Boston Globe said this past weekend that O'Brien had gone on
record saying that the way the UMASS - Georgetown game was called would
determine who won. He said if they let them play Georgetown would win because
they were more physical and aggressive and if they called the game close UMASS
would win.

  I tend to believe O'Brien, he's the coach of the fantastic B.C. Eagles who
for the 2nd year in a row played way above themselves and registered another
big upset in the big dance.

  George

RE         <<< Note 271.61 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>       Jim O'Brien was flat out wrong because it was a physical game and
>       yet UMass flat out smoked 'em in the second half.

  So what? Kwan was flat out wrong because despite using the same makeup she
won the world championship.

  Can't have it both ways Tommy, either a simple quote possibly taken out of
context is proof your event is not a sport or it is not. Make up your mind.

  George

    <<< Note 271.62 by CLUSTA::MAIEWSKI "Bos-Mil-Atl Braves W.S. Champs" >>>

>  In any case, she's been using the same makeup and costume for this entire
>season and she just won the World Championship last week by skating a better
>program than runner up Chen Lu from China so I guess that even if she said that
>she was wrong. 

Right and it's this costume that she was talking about. You will 
excuse me if I choose to believe Kwan over you. It's a 
credibility thing...

daryll

    Georgetown tried to play physical but the refs didn't let them.  In the
    second half the Hoyas couldn't make a basket and UMass couldn't miss
    for a four or five minute stretch which resulted in a 15 point deficit
    that Georgetown never could close.
    
    O'Brien probably thought that the talent level of Georgetown was better
    than it was and it was exposed pretty good.  The type of mugging that
    Georgetown would have needed has no place in college basketball but
    occasionally is allowed.
    
    O'Brien was probably thinking of last years OSU-UM game in saying that
    officiating could beat UMass.  It will be very, very interesting to see
    which officials do the Kentucky game - I'm guessing Big 10 which should
    be to neither teams advantage.  Finally everybody talks about the
    seeding but isn't getting the two teams together on Saturday night in
    prime time perfect for the NCAA - Monday night traditional can get
    ratings on it's own.

    >> Can't have it both ways Tommy, either a simple quote possibly 
    >> taken out of context is proof your event is not a sport or it 
    >> is not. Make up your mind.
    
       I don't know what the hell you're talking about and I'm sure
       that you don't either. You keep gravitating back to this is
       or isn't a sport thing like a four year old to his blankie.
       I don't care what you choose to call a sport. Can I make that
       any plainer? And I'm baffled as to why you even care if folks 
       don't consider figure skating a sport. As for Jim O'Brien, he
       had his opinion about how the UMass-Georgetown game would play 
       out and he was wrong but that's ok because he's a fine basketball 
       coach but he's no Nostradamus. Kwan, her coach and a number of 
       folks in figure skating circles were quoted in Monday's Globe as 
       saying that her makeup and costume were critical to her success. 
       You can find the Globe and see for yourself. Don't take my word 
       for it. I guess they were right because she just won some sort of 
       championship.
    
    
       BTW - BC didn't have and big upset in the big dance for the "second 
             year. They weren't in the dance last year.

RE   <<< Note 271.64 by SALEM::DODA "Workin' on mysteries without any clues" >>>

>Right and it's this costume that she was talking about. 

  First it's makeup, then it's the costume, make up your mind.

  I believe that this whole thing is in reference to the fact that Kwan changed
not only her makeup and costume but the whole approach to pulling together her
long program. Before she was just a little kid going through the motions of
stringing one move together with the next, this time she put together a
complete package which helped with the artistic presentation score. It involved
not only her appearance but every aspect of her program. 

  Sill, she could win without skating a clean program which she did. She skated
a perfect short program completing all the compulsory elements and landed
all 7 triples in her long program without a flaw. Had she fallen on just one
all the makeup in the world wouldn't have prevented Chen Lu from walking away
with the gold medal. 

  No one's arguing that the way the judges call the program or referees call a
basketball game doesn't affect the outcome. They do. And likewise, if Marcus
Camby decided that the only way he'd play basketball was if he didn't have to
tuck in his shirt, that would probably impact UMASS as much as Kwan's makeup
would impact her program, maybe more.

  George 

RE         <<< Note 271.66 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>       I don't know what the hell you're talking about and I'm sure
>       that you don't either. You keep gravitating back to this is
>       or isn't a sport thing like a four year old to his blankie.

  Woops, someone's flying upside down again. This remark flies in the face
of the fact that every single time this topic has come up it's been the
anti-figure skating crowd giving in to it's favorite obsession. Again,
what's the general rule here, it's all right for the prosecution to present
a case but it's not all right for the defense to answer? Boy am I glad you
didn't write the Constitution. Instead of British Common law we'd have Tommy's
Kangaroo Court law.

>As for Jim O'Brien, he
>       had his opinion about how the UMass-Georgetown game would play 
>       out and he was wrong but that's ok because he's a fine basketball 
>       coach but he's no Nostradamus. 

  Well, now Bill is saying that he was right and that the refs did prevent
Georgetown from playing that type of game. I think I'll believe O'Brien and
Bill.

  George

    <<< Note 271.67 by CLUSTA::MAIEWSKI "Bos-Mil-Atl Braves W.S. Champs" >>>

 > First it's makeup, then it's the costume, make up your mind.

  Go back and read .60 again George. try reading for 
  comprehension this time. Look up "attire" in your Websters if you 
  need to.

  Thanks for playing.

    I think O'Brien's comments make for a valid discussion about the ncaa
    tourney.  Comparing basketball officiating with figure skating
    officiating is not valid because in the latter only the "officiating"
    counts and in the former there is a publicly displayed points system
    which is the only thing that counts.
    
    I was hoping to get officiating and its effects talked about for
    college basketball and I thank you for introducing O'Brien's comments
    to back me up since they were identical to mine posted earlier.  I
    personally have noticed some naivete about the effects of officiating
    which is pushed out by college basketball public relations but is not
    held to my knowledge by anyone knowledgable within the game.
    
    Finally though for the record:  The only sport, even given the above,
    which is less affected by officiating than college basketball is major
    league baseball.  The sport closest to figure skating on the chart is
    your own darling, NBA Basketball in which right now only 1/2 the teams
    could stay on the floor with Mass and Kentucky (in large part due to
    injuries).

  >> Again, what's the general rule here, it's all right for the 
  >> prosecution to present a case but it's not all right for the 
  >> defense to answer? 

     George, care to point out where anyone in this string has said
     figure skating was not a sport? For someone who is awful quick
     to dispense legal opinions (generally wrong ones at that) you
     play awful fast and loose with the facts. No one said figure
     skating wasn't a sport precisely because you'd launch into
     your same boring tired-ass spiel. 
    

RE         <<< Note 271.71 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>     George, care to point out where anyone in this string has said
>     figure skating was not a sport? 

  This round started here.

>           <<< Note 271.45 by CAM::WAY "There's the devil to pay!" >>>
>    :
>    :
>As for the women, hey, I've got no gripe because their women.  At least their
>sport keeps score and isn't judged, which is more than I can say for figure
>skating and pixie-gymnamstics.
>    :
>    :


  Knowing not only that I would launch into my "boring tired-ass spiel" but
that also you would be unable to resist joining me with your "boring tired-ass
spiel" our moderator himself seems to have decided to wake up this file with
our favorite debate.

  More than likely he's got a bet with the moderators of Woman's notes that
his notes file can fill up an RA90 quicker than theirs can.

  George

   >> our moderator himself seems to have decided to wake up this 
   >> file with our favorite debate.
    
      I see nothing in Frank's quote about what is or is not a sport.
      This file was awake and lively with a discussion of the best 
      event on the American sports calendar. If you felt some sort 
      of obligation to perk it up you needn't have. So let's talk
      sports and can the discussion that no one cares to hear for
      the umpteenth time.
    

      Just thought to jump in with my $0.02...
    
      George, trying to use your O'Brien argument is a tad weak when
      UMass won the game by 24.  I would think it sort of works against
      you.
    
      Figure skating/gymnastics, I believe, are more subjective.  No one
      has claimed any sports are without subjectivity, the question
      is the extent.  I don't know how many times I have seen figure
      skating where the eastern bloc officials seemed to score differently
      than the western bloc officials.  I feel like the French black woman
      usually gets screwed (regardless).
    
      But, degree of subjectivity of scoring does not, imo, imply the 
      degree to which something is or is not a sport.
    
      I (for one) can't help but consider a full twisting double back on
      floor or a triple twist on ice skates fine examples of athleticism.
    
    						Tony

RE         <<< Note 271.73 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>      I see nothing in Frank's quote about what is or is not a sport.

  And the majority of things I've said in this string are not about what is
or is not a sport. Once again you are doing selective reading seeing only
what you want to see.

>So let's talk
>      sports and can the discussion that no one cares to hear for
>      the umpteenth time.
    
  If no one wants to hear it, why do people keep bringing it up? If no one
wants to hear it, why do you feel obliged to match me on this topic note for
note? To me talking about figure skating is talking sports. Do you feel
otherwise?

  George

>      I see nothing in Frank's quote about what is or is not a sport.
>      This file was awake and lively with a discussion of the best 
>      event on the American sports calendar. If you felt some sort 
>      of obligation to perk it up you needn't have. So let's talk
>      sports and can the discussion that no one cares to hear for
>      the umpteenth time.


Tommy's basically right on this one.

We were talking about my personal opinion of the relative ranking of sports,
in general, and specifically as it relates to the UCONN Lady Huskies.

In my personal opinion, in terms of PERSONAL ENJOYMENT, I rank women's
basketball in the middle of my ranking, somewhat lower than men's, but above
sports that are judged subjectively.

I did not say figure skating or pixie-gymnastics were not sports, only that
they are subjectively judged.


That being said, Tommy you ought to get a kick out of the sign spotted in
Gampel the other night -- which actually has the Athletic Dept scrambling so
that a "we are united" front is presented to the public.  The sign
said:


		UCONN:

		  Where men are men, 
		  but the women are champions.


Made me smile at any rate.


'Saw
    

    Frank, George got himself into a bind earlier when he compared ncaa
    basketball to an nba minor league which put him in the position of
    defending the nba as high quality sport (by default).  Then when he
    came up with the idea of defending figure skating by comparing it to
    "real" sport he couldn't use the best example, the nba, but instead had
    to attack college basketball again, which he likes to do because he
    knows how much most of us like it.
    
    To top it off he uses a Jim O'Brien quote which in essence was a
    sophisticated, basketball insider line which was way over his head (as
    evinced by his using it to buttress his figure skating = college
    basketball argument).  The correct analogy would be to say that if a
    panel of figure skating judges were partial to athleticism then a Tanya
    Harding would have an advantage vs a skater looking to emphasize
    aeshetics to a different panel.

RE           <<< Note 271.76 by CAM::WAY "There's the devil to pay!" >>>

>I did not say figure skating or pixie-gymnastics were not sports, only that
>they are subjectively judged.

  ... and all I did was to point out that basketball is subjectively judged as
well. To me if you lose a game because a judge gave you a 5.4 when you felt
you should have had a 5.6 or if you lose a game because a ref should have
called an offensive foul on the guy who bowled you over instead of calling the
foul on you and sending him to the line it's the same thing. You still lost
because of someone's opinion. 

  However in both sports that's the exception not the rule. More often than
not the officials get it right and the competitor who did better wins.

  George

RE            <<< Note 271.77 by AKOCOA::BREEN "You never can tell" >>>

>    Frank, George got himself into a bind earlier when he compared ncaa
>    basketball to an nba minor league which put him in the position of
>    defending the nba as high quality sport (by default).  

  Interesting note Bill, you've claimed victory on a number of points that
were at best left in dispute. First, I'm not in a bind. I still believe that
College Basketball is minor league basketball. That's where development takes
place for players going on to the NBA. The fact that the rules are a little
different means very little. Eventually everyone agreed with my point that
NBA teams were better than College teams. I don't see how that puts me in
a bind.

>Then when he
>    came up with the idea of defending figure skating by comparing it to
>    "real" sport he couldn't use the best example, the nba, but instead had
>    to attack college basketball again, which he likes to do because he
>    knows how much most of us like it.

  Ok, finally the gloves are off. No doubt this is a direct claim that figure
skating is not a sport. I admire the stones you have to admit that rather
than chipping around the edges like Tommy and Frank then claiming that they
never intended to say that. But you are wrong about my reasoning. I used
O'Brien's remark because it was available and matched Kwan's remark.

>    To top it off he uses a Jim O'Brien quote which in essence was a
>    sophisticated, basketball insider line which was way over his head 

  Now your stones have turned to solid brass. "I win, you lose, because you
don't know what you are talking about". Nice try, I admire that.

>The correct analogy would be to say that if a
>    panel of figure skating judges were partial to athleticism then a Tanya
>    Harding would have an advantage vs a skater looking to emphasize
>    aeshetics to a different panel.

  Well in fact Harding never lost an event when she successfully landed her
triple Axel. She won the National Championship the last time she competed
and in the Olympics she was down around 7th or 8th because she missed several
elements in the compulsories, and then in the long program she popped her
triple Axel and missed several other jumps. Had she skated both programs
clean and landed her triple Axel she probably would have won a medal. 

  George

  >> and all I did was to point out that basketball is subjectively 
  >> judged as well. 

     No, you got all defensive because of Frank's comment and went
     into your usual diatribe and concluded with "I guess that
     means that basketball isn't a sport either" and started 
     that same old mess all over again. It was *you* who first
     said anything about what is or isn't a sport not Frank not
     Tommy but you.

  >> To me if you lose a game because a judge gave you a  5.4 when you 
  >> felt you should have had a 5.6 or if you lose a game because a ref 
  >> should have called an offensive foul on the guy who bowled you over 
  >> instead of calling the foul on you and sending him to the line it's 
  >> the same thing. You still lost because of someone's opinion. 

     Calls rarely decide basketball games. You'd probably couldn't name 
     three that were decided in the manner that you described. On the 
     other hand, every single skating contest is *SCORED* according to 
     someone's opinion. And that's not necessarily a bad thing - boxing 
     matches are often decided the same way. It just leaves the door
     open to differences of opinion based on personal preference. When 
     you toss in makeup and costume as important factors it becomes all 
     the more farcical.

     
    

RE         <<< Note 271.80 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

  Beat that horse Tommy BEAT it ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  Beat that horse Tommy BEAT it ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  Beat that horse Tommy BEAT it ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"

  Bleat on about how figure skating is not a sport by using code words like
"farcical" then deny you ever made that claim. Then BEAT that horse:

  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"

  Enter 6 dozen more notes about figure skating then claim no one wants to hear
about it then BEAT that horse some more: 

  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"
  ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena" ** THOMP **  "WHHHEEEEEEEeeeeeeeena"

  George

    Believe it or not my adjective "real" didn't have to do with figure
    skating but to try to contrast it.  I put the quotes in to show it was
    subjective.  Yes, my note could be used as a classic example of begging
    the question but in this case the quotes were to avoid that.
    
    And you had a reach in logic in using my agreement on O'Bie's quote to
    bolster the skating vs basketball argument.  I obviously couldn't
    disagree since he virtually verbatim said what I said elsewhere but
    equating college baskets has subjective officiating, figure skating
    has.. therefore the two are the same will make Aristotle very angry.

   >> Bleat on about how figure skating is not a sport by using code 
   >> words like "farcical" then deny you ever made that claim. 

      The scoring for amateur boxing especially at the Olympic level
      is even more farcical than the scoring in figure skating. In fact,
      you'd be hard-pressed to dream up a worse system. That doesn't 
      mean it isn't a sport. You really need to move past this, George.
      Think of your happy place or something.
    

    
    >Calls rarely decide basketball games. You'd probably couldn't name
    >three that were decided in the manner that you described.
    
    Tommy, I think I have to agree with George on this issue.  Finding
    three games that were decided by an officials subjective (right or
    wrong) decision happen all the time and you know it.  For proof I point
    you to the LAST THREE games for the Nuggets.  
    
    Two of the three games decided by a shot put up with less than 1 second
    on the clock (did the player beat the clock or not - that is
    subjective whether you want to believe it or not), the last game had a
    Nugget player shoot a 3 point shot that was changed to a 2 point shot
    (and correctly so) during the next time out.  Result was overtime
    instead of a win.
    
    There are probably (my guess) over 100 games every year that are
    decided by a refs decision.  How many games have been won this year by
    a last second "dribble this way, dribble that way, step, step, step,
    scores" when it is clearly a traveling call?  The ref subjectively
    decided NOT to call the travel.
                                                
    Marc

    I'm sorry I have to be the one to do this.  Everybody run for cover in
    a different note, quickly!
    
           George,
    
    Figure skating is NOT a sport!
    
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

  Ok, new day, no snow, let's move on to something else.

  George

I wish MrT was still around sometimes.


Speaking of "Respect"  I gots a question:


	WHAT THE HECK ARE THE LYRICS IN THIS SECTION:


	R-E-S-P-E-C-T, found out what it means to me,
	R-E-S-P-E-C-T, take out ____________________


I should would LOVE to know....


thank you,
'Saw

    HEY MAN IF YOU DON'T HAVE RESPECT WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING
      WITH YOUR LIFE.
    

>                       <<< Note 271.89 by POLAR::WIENS >>>
>                          -< RESPECTFULLY YOURS !!! >-
>
>    HEY MAN IF YOU DON'T HAVE RESPECT WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING
>      WITH YOUR LIFE.


What on earth are you shouting for?