Conference hbahba::cam_sports

Here! Here!  Thanks George.

-Andy (just visitin')

    Thanks George.
    
    I am optomisitc about the Braves chances - good pitching, clutch
    hitting (won 28? games during their last at bat this season), and being
    rested.
    
    Oh yea.  I turned down an opportunity to buy WS tickets about a month
    ago ($120 for two) due to financial reasons.  However, given my W-L
    record with the Terps when I attend their games here vs GA Tech, my not
    attending any games will definitly help the Braves.
    
    Braves in 6, with this WS probably being one of the best ever.
    
    UMDan
    

Should we rename notes to be:

	Seattle/Milwaukee Brewers Note
	St. Louis/Baltimore Orioles Note
	Brooklyn/LA Dodgers Note
	NY/SF Giants Note
	Washington/Texas Rangers Note 
         (isn't there also a Washington/Minnesota Twins tie-in here?)
	LA/California Angels Note

Once we finish, we can then move on to the NFL notes...

  For the Braves franchise this is their 15th National League title. They have
two World Series championships, the 1st in 1914 when Boston's "Miracle Braves"
came from last place in mid summer to win the pennant and swept the Athletics
in 4, the second in 1957 when the Milwaukee Braves behind two shutouts and a
third win pitched by Lew Burdette beat the Yankees. 

  In 1948, 1958, 1991, and 1992 they won the Pennant but lost the Series to the
Indians, the Yanks, the Twins, and Jays respectively. The other 8 National
League pennants came in the 19th century before the "Modern World Series" in
years when winning the N.L. pennant meant you were the baseball champion. 

  This team has gone by several names. When the N.L. reorganized in 1876 the
Harry Wright's National Association team joined the National League as the
Boston Red Caps. Around 1880 they became known as the Boston Bean eaters, a
name they kept through 1906. From 1907 to 1910 they were known as the Doves,
they were the Rustlers in 1911, and in 1912, the year Fenway Park was built and
the cross town A.L. Red Sox beat the N.Y. Giants in the World Series, this team
became known as the Boston Braves. The name was taken from the Boston social
club to which the new owner, James Gaffney, belonged. 

  In 1952 with attendance sagging despite a trip to the World Series 4 years
earlier the Braves left Boston for Milwaukee. Bill Veck Jr was threatening to
move his St. Louis Browns club back to Milwaukee to take advantage of their new
stadium but the Braves beat him to the punch becoming the 1st major league team
to move to another city in 50 years. After 12 year in Milwaukee the team moved
once again to Atlanta and for the last 30 years have been the only major league
baseball team in the South. 

  In just 2.5 days another big chapter will start to get written in this club's
120 year history and fans are hoping for a happy ending.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George 

RE            <<< Note 247.3 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's pancake time!" >>>

>	Seattle/Milwaukee Brewers Note
>	St. Louis/Baltimore Orioles Note
>	Brooklyn/LA Dodgers Note
>	NY/SF Giants Note
>	Washington/Texas Rangers Note 
>         (isn't there also a Washington/Minnesota Twins tie-in here?)
>	LA/California Angels Note

  That's

	Milwaukee(Brewers)/St.Louis(browns)/Baltimore Orioles 
        Washington(Senators)/Minnesota Twins

and you forgot

        Philadelphia/K.C./Oakland Athletics
        Baltimore(Orioles)/N.Y.(Manhattan Highlanders) (Bronx) Yankees

  George

I know that at the HoF the teams are listed by "franchise" -- In other words,
the Minnesota Twins have the Washington Senators championships listed on their
placard in the "locker room" exhibit.


We don't need to change note names, but I see no problem with listing the
Braves history.

My father used to watch the Braves players come up through their farm club
in Hartford -- the Hartford Chiefs, and saw Preacher Roe pitch.  (I think it 
was Preacher -- the was also a Schoolboy Rowe and one was a pitcher and one was
an infielder, but I think Preacher was the pitcher....)


'Saw

|>	Washington/Texas Rangers Note 
|>         (isn't there also a Washington/Minnesota Twins tie-in here?)
|
|        Washington(Senators)/Minnesota Twins


The Washington Senators left sometime in the 60s to become the Minnesota
Twins.  They were the Washington Senators of

	"First in War, First in Peach, Last in the American League"

fame.

Sometime later, a new Washington Senators club was formed.  This club moved out
of Washington and became the Texas Rangers.

I miss some of the old clubs, especially the Senators...Loved watching Frank
Howard play.  He was one of the biggest men I'd ever seen in sports....


'Saw

    Well George beat me on the A's and his other additions are before my
    time.  George has anyone chronicled the Boston Braves - I'm actually
    interested in the 1946-52 period and somewhat interested in the
    succeeding National League years '53-60 afterwhich they stopped
    contending.
    
    And Roland, baseball is easy - if you try tracking the movements of the
    nba and nfl you'll go crazy (eg Arizona nee St Louis nee Chicago nee
    ??? Cardinals/?Staleys).

    Schoolboy Rowe was a pitcher for the Tigers and held the record for
    consectutive wins at one time (16).
    
    And that's first in peace.  Peach?? - he was first in hitting.
    
    Howard played for the second coming of the Senators, the first version
    had a lot of good players (Killebrew,Camilio Pascual, Pedro Ramos).

RE                       <<< Note 247.8 by AKOCOA::BREEN >>>

>    George has anyone chronicled the Boston Braves - I'm actually
>    interested in the 1946-52 period and somewhat interested in the
>    succeeding National League years '53-60 afterwhich they stopped
>    contending.
    
  Most Baseball Encyclopedias have all the stats through that period. There's a
book called the Baseball Chronicle that lists major league baseball highlights
from 1845 until the time it was published a few years ago. 

  Other than that I don't know but you might look, or have a friend look, in
the "Braves Store" in Atlanta's Omni center. As with everything else in that
building including CNN it's something of a tribute to Ted Turner but there is
some neat Braves stuff. If they don't have stuff about the pre-Atlanta years
it's only because they are trying to forget the Braves past. Of course there
are those of us who won't let that happen :*)}

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

>    Braves in 6, with this WS probably being one of the best ever.
    
    Better make it 7, then.
    
    
    The Atlanta Braves were one of the very first teams to go bigtime
    corporate.  In spirit they bear as little resemblance to the Boston
    or Milwaukee Braves as to the Memphis Chickashas.  On top of that,
    Atlanta is the yuppie capital of the New South.  Tommy has regaled
    us with his description of Indians' fans but for sheer bandwagoning
    ability Atlanta fans make Cleveland's look like weekend-only pikers
    (Chris Knorr confirmed this for us).  Cleveland fans have been 
    desperate for a winner but at least have appreciated _that_; in 
    Atlanta attendance plummeted when mere pennants weren't enough.  And 
    we haven't even gotten to The Chop.  The whole thing is just one big
    nauseating Ted and Jane love-in.  Go Tribe.
    
    glenn (still bitter over 1991, 1992)
     

>    And that's first in peace.  Peach?? - he was first in hitting.
    

Typo. 

Fingers got hungry I guess....

I'm sure that's what they were saying in 1954 too....8^)

RE                     <<< Note 247.11 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN >>>
>           -< Braves sold their roots to the Devil Down in Georgia >-

    The Atlanta Braves were one of the very first teams to go bigtime
    corporate.  In spirit they bear as little resemblance to the Boston
    or Milwaukee Braves as to the Memphis Chickashas.  

  You are right, they were one of the 1st teams to go big time corporate, but
they did that back in 1876 when they jumped from the amateur National
Association to the professional National League. And as for yupies, what can be
more yupie than a social club (except perhaps the y for young)? The very name
"Braves" comes from a club that was a beehive of the rich elite of the day. 

  The Braves were one of the 1st teams to go pro, they are named after a
social club, they were the 1st team to leave town and break the 50 years of
stability in Major League baseball, and they were the 1st team to seek their
fortune in the South. Being an aggressive cooperate entity is a Braves tradition
and to me that's a whole lot better than teams like the Pirates and Brewers
who simply cry about their financial fate rather than doing something about
it.

  I'll take Barberella and the Sea Captain over Bud "save us from ourselves"
Selieg any day. They are a competitive team, they are a competitive company,
and have been so for much of their 120 year history.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

> I'll take Barberella and the Sea Captain over Bud "save us from ourselves"
> Selieg any day. They are a competitive team, they are a competitive company,
> and have been so for much of their 120 year history.
    
    Is this a Braves-Brewers all ex-Milwaukee Series?  I didn't think so.
    Cleveland's is a small-market Success Story to all Success Stories.
    And they didn't have to punk out of town in the middle of night to
    do so...
    
    glenn
    

  Unlike the Braves, The Indians never had to compete financially with another
major league club and they have always played in a proven major league market.
When the American League was formed in 1901 they effectively had exclusive
access to their market handed to them. The National League shut down their
Cleveland franchise in 1899 just before the Indians started so there was no
competition for the Indians financially.

  Going where the market tells you to go is good business and it's a lot more
of the American Spirit than Bud Selig crying in his beer and threatening to
take his ball and go home because everyone refuses to play his way. 

  The Braves have been on the leading edge as a Cooperate entity since they 1st
joined the National League in 1876 and they continue that tradition today. They
are my kind of team. 

  GO BRAVES!!!   
  George 

    >> Tommy has regaled us with his description of Indians' fans but 
    >> for sheer bandwagoning ability Atlanta fans make Cleveland's look 
    >> like weekend-only pikers

       It's really a shame that someone has to win. One of the biggest 
       lowlights in recent sports history was phony-assed Jane Fonda
       peering skyward with hands clasped seeking divine intervention
       during the '92 World Series. If that didn't trigger your gag
       reflex nothing will. Toss in the moronic tomahawk chop, the
       fact that for the longest baseball in Atlanta was as unpopular
       as baseball in Cleveland and it's almost enough to make you
       root for the Indians inspite of Groiner.
    

    Another strike against Atlanta: "Hootie" is singing the national
    anthem before Game 1.  Ugh.
    
    
    glenn
    

	Cal Ripken, Jr., is throwing out the opening pitch in game 1.

RE         <<< Note 247.19 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Plan 9 From Outer Space" >>>

>     If anybody ever had exclusive access to a market it was the Braves
>     and their hold on the entire South. The team that Ted Turner bought 
>     just for cheap tv programming was *it* in pretty much the entire region
>     south of Virginia and the only thing that kept them from cementing a
>     hold on it was college football and their own ineptness.

  What are you talking about? The Braves are not complaining about financial
problems, they seem to be doing fine.

>       Toss in the moronic tomahawk chop, 
    
  Funny you should be complaining about that Tommy. The Braves tomahawk chop
is an infestation that comes straight from College Football. It was a disease
that was passed on to Dieon Sanders by the Semino fans and he gave it to
the Braves fans. It's a wonder they aren't doing it in San Francisco.

  BOOM boom boom boom BOOM boom boom boom 
  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

  >> What are you talking about? The Braves are not complaining about 
  >> financial problems, they seem to be doing fine.

     A better question is, what are *you* talking about? No one said the 
     Braves were complaining about financial problems. You're confused. The 
     WS is between the Braves and the Indians. You may want to write that
     down. You keep dragging in the Brewers and Bud Selig and every one but 
     the Indians to justify your rooting for the Braves. If you want to 
     talk about having an exclusive hold on a market/region (and you were)
     then you're talking about the Braves and the South.

  >> Funny you should be complaining about that Tommy. The Braves tomahawk 
  >> chop is an infestation that comes straight from College Football. It was 
  >> a disease that was passed on to Dieon Sanders by the Semino fans and he 
  >> gave it to the Braves fans. 

     I'm an FSU fan. I know where the Chop comes from. It's still idiotic.

  >> It's a wonder they aren't doing it in San Francisco.

     I'm sure you know of some historic connection between the goldminers for 
     whom the 49ers are named and the tomahawk so give us your best Cliff
     Claven imitation and tell us all about it.

    
    

Boy, you guys are hilarious!  Keep 'em coming...

-Andy (just visitin')

RE         <<< Note 247.23 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Plan 9 From Outer Space" >>>

>     A better question is, what are *you* talking about? No one said the 
>     Braves were complaining about financial problems. You're confused. The 
>     WS is between the Braves and the Indians. You may want to write that
>     down. You keep dragging in the Brewers and Bud Selig and every one but 
>     the Indians to justify your rooting for the Braves. 

  Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, no it is not me that's confused, as usual you are the
one that is confused. Check the title of this topic. It's not the 1995 World
Series note, it's the Braves note.

  The conversation about Selig had nothing to do with the World Series. It was
in response to Glenn saying that he didn't like the Braves in general because
they were a bunch of yuppies that had gone Corporate.

  I was just responding that in general they have always been financially
motivated, since the beginning, and that this is nothing new. And I went on
to say that to me taking your future in your own hands and doing something
about it is better than whining and crying like Bud Selig. 

>If you want to 
>     talk about having an exclusive hold on a market/region (and you were)
>     then you're talking about the Braves and the South.

  Again you are quoting me out of context because you jumped into the middle
of the debate without reading what had been said before. The gist of that
discussion was that Glenn was bashing the Braves because they had to move
and the Indians did not. I was saying that it is not a good comparison because
the Braves had to share the Boston market with another baseball team where as
the Indians did not have to share the Cleveland market with another team since
the NL Cleveland team had folded in 1899.

>     I'm sure you know of some historic connection between the goldminers for 
>     whom the 49ers are named and the tomahawk so give us your best Cliff
>     Claven imitation and tell us all about it.

  Actually it is you that is giving us a Gilda Radner imitation and now that
you have been filled in on what we are really talking about you can slip in
a "Never Mind".

  George

	After reading the latest string in here,  does anyone
	else visualize Point-Counterpoint with Sununu and that
	skinny fella thouwing verbal jabs at each other?


	billl

That skinny fellow reminds me of Mike Emerick, the weenis hockey announcer.

    Trying to keep up with the bantering of sprot's version of the Kramdens
    is pretty tricky.  It took me a second when George said "funny you
    [Tommy] should complain about the chop then I remembered tb is a Fla.
    state fan and was surprised that George would have picked that up.
    
    But then George carried the Deion - chop analogy to San Fran forgetting
    that Deion and the 49ers are history - but wait, he's still a Giant so
    the analogy still holds.  So I rebate the point I had deducted George.
    
    This is your Sprots umbrage umpire saying "Later fans" and remember
    
    Have indicator, Will arbit

  
   >> It was in response to Glenn saying that he didn't like the Braves 
   >> in general because they were a bunch of yuppies that had gone Corporate.

      Yes, you are confused. Yuppies don't 'go corporate'. They are by def-
      inition corporate. Yuppy meaning Young Urban Professional. The ref-
      erence to yuppies was about Atlanta being the yuppie capital of the 
      New South.

   >> The gist of that discussion was that Glenn was bashing the Braves 
   >> because they had to move and the Indians did not. I was saying that 
   >> it is not a good comparison because the Braves had to share the Boston 
   >> market with another baseball team where as the Indians did not have to 
   >> share the Cleveland market with another team since the NL Cleveland 
   >> team had folded in 1899.

      The Braves were sharing Milwaukee with whom? If any team ever had a 
      reason to move it was the Indians what with their park and their woeful 
      attendance for much of the last 30 years. That they didn't is a bit of 
      testimony of the loyalty of the owners to their fans and their city. 
      Franchises moving is a fact of life in sports in the '90s. It's where 
      the really big money is. But it does my heart good when I see owners 
      who don't resort to blackmail or cities that don't cave into it.
      It's funny though that you back Kraft when he begs for a new stadium
      but rag all over Selig when he does the same thing.
    

    
	>> After reading the latest string in here,  does anyone
  	>> else visualize Point-Counterpoint with Sununu and that
	>> skinny fella thouwing verbal jabs at each other?
    
           Please delete if deemed inappropriate:
    
    
    
 
 
 Jane, you ignorant slut.  Bagged out, dried up, skunk meat like you
and Michelle Triolla know the rules.  If you want a contract, sign on the
dotted line.  Oh, but let's all shed a tear for poor Michelle Triolla. 
There was only testimony that she had sexual intercourse over 40 times with
another man while living with actor Lee Marvin.  But I suppose that sort of
fashionable promiscuity means nothing to you.  Someone like you, Jane, who
hops from bed to bed with the frequency of a cheap ham-radio.  But hell hath
no fury like a woman scorned, and Michelle Triolla like a screeching,
squealing, rapacious swamp sow is after actor Lee Marvin's last three million
dollars.  I guess what you and Michelle are saying is, that when you're on you
backs, the meter is running.  Well please spare us gals, and tell us the rates
at the top.  Then we can choose which two-bit tarts and bargain basement sluts
to shack up with.
 
 
      

    
    I think ole George will have Tommy rooting for the Indians before the
    day's out......
    
    ;^)
    
    

Tommy, I'm ROLLING!

That made my afternoon....

RE         <<< Note 247.29 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Plan 9 From Outer Space" >>>

you have a remarkable ability to argue hard against things I never said with
the appearance that you are arguing with me. Two cases in point: 

>      Yes, you are confused. Yuppies don't 'go corporate'. They are by def-
>      inition corporate. Yuppy meaning Young Urban Professional. The ref-
>      erence to yuppies was about Atlanta being the yuppie capital of the 
>      New South.

  I never said anything about Yuppies going corporate.

>      The Braves were sharing Milwaukee with whom? 

  I never said anything about the Braves sharing Milwaukee with anyone.

>If any team ever had a 
>      reason to move it was the Indians what with their park and their woeful 
>      attendance for much of the last 30 years. 

  Maybe so I'm not arguing about that either. But by comparison the Braves had
it much worse. In Cleveland it appears that just winning was enough to bring
the fans to the park. In Boston the fans didn't come to see the Braves even
though they had just been in the 1948 World Series. So they moved to Milwaukee
where the city had just built a bran new 28,000 seat stadium and there were
no other baseball teams with whom they needed to compete as they had in

  <cup hands> B-O-S-T-O-N, not Milwaukee <cup hands> B-O-S-T-O-N.

>      It's funny though that you back Kraft when he begs for a new stadium
>      but rag all over Selig when he does the same thing.

  Again big difference. When Selig didn't get his way he shut down all of
baseball canceling the end of the season in an unprecedented move. Kraft
is making no where near that type of threat.

  George

RE                      <<< Note 247.28 by AKOCOA::BREEN >>>

>    But then George carried the Deion - chop analogy to San Fran forgetting
>    that Deion and the 49ers are history - but wait, he's still a Giant so
>    the analogy still holds.  So I rebate the point I had deducted George.
    
  No I didn't forget about Deion and the Cowboys. I was referring to the fact
that last year with the football season in full swing and Deion in S.F. we
didn't see the Chop.

  Deion just got to Dallas so it's not clear if they will chop or not. Most
likely they will not. As I recall the reason the Chop started in Atlanta was
that actual Semino fans who had chopped for Deion in college were at the
Braves games chopping for Deion. Then other Braves fans started chopping for
Deion, then other Braves fans started chopping all the time.

  Most likely the Dallas / Fort Worth area doesn't have a lot of Semino fans
or if they do they know better than to chop. If they did they'd probably get
scalped by a former Aggie fan.

  George

    
    there is no such thing as a Cowboy fan. there are only fair weather/
    good time charlie type fans who root for the Cowboys.......

  
      >> As I recall the reason the Chop started in Atlanta was
      >> that actual Semino fans who had chopped for Deion in college 
      >> were at the Braves games chopping for Deion. 
    
         You recall wrong. Football allegiances in the South run deep.
         Especially in Atlanta, Ga. You're either a G Tech fan or a
         Georgia Bulldogs fan. There ain't no FSU fans. Deion may have
         started it with the Braves fans but it probably caught on 
         because they are the *Braves* and a tomohawk is their logo.

>      Yes, you are confused. Yuppies don't 'go corporate'. They are by def-
>      inition corporate. Yuppy meaning Young Urban Professional. The ref-
>      erence to yuppies was about Atlanta being the yuppie capital of the 
>      New South.

  >> I never said anything about Yuppies going corporate.

      Yes, you did. In note 247.35 you said,"The conversation about Selig had 
      nothing to do with the World Series. It was in response to Glenn saying 
      that he didn't like the Braves in general because they were a bunch of 
      yuppies that had gone Corporate." Glen never said that, you did.


>      The Braves were sharing Milwaukee with whom? 

  >> I never said anything about the Braves sharing Milwaukee with anyone.

      No, you said that it wasn't fair to compare the Braves to the Indians
      because the Braves had to compete with the Red Sox and that's why they 
      moved. My questions is and was, "Yeah, so why did they leave Milwaukee?"
 

>      It's funny though that you back Kraft when he begs for a new stadium
>      but rag all over Selig when he does the same thing.

    >> Again big difference. When Selig didn't get his way he shut down all of
    >> baseball canceling the end of the season in an unprecedented move. Kraft
    >> is making no where near that type of threat.

       Nice try but in 247.17 you said, " Going where the market tells you to 
       go is good business and it's a lot more of the American Spirit than Bud
       Selig crying in his beer and threatening to take his ball and go home 
       because everyone refuses to play his way. " Note the present tense
       "crying" and "threatening". An obvious reference to Selig's threat
       to move his team if he doesn't get his way. Either practice your 
       lawyerspeak a little more , George because you ain't very good at it 
       yet or take a stand and stick to it.
    
    

T>>      It's funny though that you back Kraft when he begs for a new stadium
T>>      but rag all over Selig when he does the same thing.

G>>  Again big difference. When Selig didn't get his way he shut down all of
G>>baseball canceling the end of the season in an unprecedented move. Kraft
G>>is making no where near that type of threat.

George, Selig didn't shut down all of baseball because he didn't get a
new stadium in Milwaukee...

RE         <<< Note 247.39 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Plan 9 From Outer Space" >>>

>         You recall wrong. Football allegiances in the South run deep.
>         Especially in Atlanta, Ga. You're either a G Tech fan or a
>         Georgia Bulldogs fan. There ain't no FSU fans. Deion may have
>         started it with the Braves fans but it probably caught on 
>         because they are the *Braves* and a tomohawk is their logo.

  No, you are wrong. The Semino chop came to the Braves with Deion.

  George

RE         <<< Note 247.40 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Plan 9 From Outer Space" >>>

  Tommy, I no longer have any idea what you are talking about. The way you have
twisted my words around and taken them out of context is ridiculous. I'm not
going to try to chase your ideas down to try to see which one is a distortion
of which thing I said. 

  My points are that

    1). The Braves did not just start acting like an aggressive company from a
        financial point of view when Ted Turner bought them, it's been
        something they've been doing since 1876. 

    2). I favor that method of running a team over Bud Selig's style of crying
        poor, taking his ball, and going home. 

  That's it, that's all I'm saying. All this stuff about the Brewers being in
the World Series, two teams at once in Milwaukee, and the rest is a result
words being taken out of context.

  Now if you want to debate one of those points fine. If you want to debate
something else, then find someone else to fight with, I'm not interested.

  George

    No Selig shutdown baseball because his kind of market (it was believed)
    could not compete with the big market teams under the system baseball
    was being played under 1981-1993.  This of course is patent nonsense
    but at least is the consensus (I'd hope) of what the 1994
    shutdown/strike was all about.
    
    Selig has also manipulated Milwaukee into financing a new stadium; a
    move (again consensus(again I'd hope)) unrelated to shutting down
    baseball.
    
    Now George has 1 clear position and one I'm not sure about.
    
    1. George M. clearly says if Milwaukee/Pitt/Seattle can't support big
    time baseball the team should get out and go elsewhere.
    
    2. Clear.  George wants an indoor stadium in Boston where he can take
    the tee, watch the game in January in a tee shirt and after the game
    take a short walk to ???(sorry I'm out of touch but if you're up in
    Lancaster NH try Ol' Susannahs and interject a lot of ahyaps to fool
    the locals) after the game.
    
    Not clear.  If Flaherty won't build it, George should Kraft take his
    football elsewhere?
    
    	Tommy is that your question to George?
    
    Your friendly arbiter
    
    b'ar bumpin billte

>      Yes, you did. In note 247.35 you said,"The conversation about Selig had 
>      nothing to do with the World Series. It was in response to Glenn saying 
>      that he didn't like the Braves in general because they were a bunch of 
>      yuppies that had gone Corporate." Glen never said that, you did.
    
    That's true, I never said that.  After George said that I had, I
    thought I did, but then I went back and checked, and no, I hadn't
    said that.
    
    "Glenn doesn't like the Braves in general" would suffice.  There's
    a whole bunch of reasons.  A once upright Vegas boy like Greg 
    Maddux turning into a yuppie gone corporate is only one of them.
    
    glenn
    

>         You recall wrong. Football allegiances in the South run deep.
>         Especially in Atlanta, Ga. You're either a G Tech fan or a
>         Georgia Bulldogs fan. There ain't no FSU fans. Deion may have
>         started it with the Braves fans but it probably caught on 
>         because they are the *Braves* and a tomohawk is their logo.

  >>  No, you are wrong. The Semino chop came to the Braves with Deion.
    
      After you get done crying in your Bosco about your words being
      taken out of context (they weren't unless using direct quotes
      can be considered "twisting". I'll just take it as your little way
      of crying, "Uncle!") read my last sentence. Reading comprehension
      ain't your strong suit, George.
    
    
      
    

	Actually, as an Atlanta resident at the time, I can tell you that
	the Atlanta Journal-Constitution did some research into the "chop"
	during/after the 1991 and concluded that the Atlanta fans use of the 
	chop had nothing to do with Deion Sanders; it was not introduced by 
	him, nor by FSU fans/alums.  In fact, it may have (to some degree)
	preceeded him to Atlanta.

    
    re.38
    
    MikeyC, Stick that fair weather s*&t in your ear. This fans been there
    since Eddie Lebaron got beat out by Mt. Vernon's favorite son Dandy Don,
    35 years and seven Super Bowls ago.
     
    
    
    George.  It's Seminole not semino
    
    OBTW!!  Cowboy fans don't need no stinking chop!!!
    

RE                     <<< Note 247.11 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN >>>

  Let's try again. In this note Glenn said:

>    The Atlanta Braves were one of the very first teams to go bigtime
>    corporate.  In spirit they bear as little resemblance to the Boston
>    or Milwaukee Braves as to the Memphis Chickashas.  

  This is the statement with which I disagree. The Atlanta Braves bear a
strong resemblance to the Boston and Milwaukee Braves for "go[ing] bigtime
corporate". The Boston/Milwaukee Braves "went bigtime corporate"

  - when they jumped from the National Association to the National League
    and started paying their players in 1876.

  - when they broke 50 years of major league stability and moved to Milwaukee
    in 1952.

  - when they left Milwaukee to go find their fortune in the South in 1965.

  That's it.  

  Glen then said:

>On top of that,
>    Atlanta is the yuppie capital of the New South.  

  To which I pointed out that the name "Braves" was taken from a boston social
club which was the yuppie equivalent of the day. 

  Glenn then said:

>The whole thing is just one big
>    nauseating Ted and Jane love-in.  

  To which I said that I liked Ted and Jane's aggressive corporate attitude
better than Bud Selig's cry in his beer take my ball and go home approach.

  Notice I said nothing about the Brewers in the World Series, nothing about
two teams at once in Milwaukee, nothing about Kraft and the Patriots. Nothing
about the nature of Yuppies.

  Glenn then said:

>Go Tribe.

  TO which I say

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

>  - when they jumped from the National Association to the National League
>    and started paying their players in 1876.
    
    I'll bet _that_ made the front page of the Wall Street Journal.  The
    Boston Braves were smalltime non-corporate, inception to rejection.
    Unchallenged in that regard, by everyone but the St Louis Browns.
    
    Good Time Charlie the Cowboys Fan... I like it.  Is that the idiot
    in 'boys' garb who burns the other team's pennants?  Didn't see too
    much of that clown during the 1-15 season, either.
    
    glenn
    

      >>> As I recall the reason the Chop started in Atlanta was
      >>> that actual Semino fans who had chopped for Deion in college 
      >>> were at the Braves games chopping for Deion. 
      >>
      >>   You recall wrong. Football allegiances in the South run deep.
      >>   Especially in Atlanta, Ga. You're either a G Tech fan or a
      >>   Georgia Bulldogs fan. There ain't no FSU fans. Deion may have
      >>   started it with the Braves fans but it probably caught on 
      >>   because they are the *Braves* and a tomohawk is their logo.

True, football allegiances do run deep in Atlanta, but not nearly so deep 
for the "local" teams as in the past.  Alot of Atlanta's residents are
transients; many attended nearby educational institutions such as Alabama, 
FSU, Clemson, Georgia Southern, etc.  You are sorely mistaken when you 
state "You're either a G Tech fan or a Georgia Bulldogs fan."  Granted, 
they do have the highest percentage of fans here, but not nearly as high 
as once was.

   >> "Glenn doesn't like the Braves in general" would suffice.  There's
   >> a whole bunch of reasons.  A once upright Vegas boy like Greg 
   >> Maddux turning into a yuppie gone corporate is only one of them.

I have never regularly followed this conference and, until recently, have
visited only a few times, so I cannot say I have followed past strings
Glenn may have posted about the Braves in general or Greg Maddux 
specifically.  That said, I am somewhat taken aback by the above statement
and would like to ask for perhaps some clarification.

Of all I have read and heard by, and about, Greg Maddux, I can only say
I believe him to be one of the (if not *the*) most "upright" member on
the team.  The guy's probably a shoe-in for his 4th Cy Young award, and 
yet is so low key and un-assuming it is ridiculous.  I realize that he
may not be liked by everyone (who is?) but, IMO, he's probably one of 
the most likeable guys on.  I guess I just don't get it...

-Andy

    
    Hang in there Andy, you'll get it......  ;^)
    
    Glenn, that bozo's name is Gay Ray...........
    
    A little touchy there Cad???? 
    
    mike

RE                     <<< Note 247.50 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN >>>
>                      -< This could be the new junk note >-

>>  - when they jumped from the National Association to the National League
>>    and started paying their players in 1876.
>    
>    I'll bet _that_ made the front page of the Wall Street Journal.  The
>    Boston Braves were smalltime non-corporate, inception to rejection.
>    Unchallenged in that regard, by everyone but the St Louis Browns.
    
  In fact the controversy over paying players was a major part of baseball in
the 1870's. There was a large faction supporting the National Association who
felt that baseball should remain an amateur event. When the Cincinnati
Redstockings c. 1869 started paying players they were able to skim off the
cream of the crop and they built a team that was practically unbeatable. It was
the major sports controversy of the day.

  Over the next few years the National League of professional players emerged
and it was the end for the National Association. Some National Association
teams like the Knickabockers decided not to go pro and folded, others like the
Boston Red Caps (the Braves), took the plunge and jumped over to the National
League. 

  As for being small time, the Braves practically owned the National League
from 1876 to 1899 winning the pennant 8 times so that was hardly small time. 

  The Braves Franchise was there at the start when professional baseball was
founded. They took a leadership position, dominated the league, and have been a
major trend setter throughout the 120 year history of Professional Major League
Baseball. 

  They are America's team, 

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

>  They are America's team, 
    
    And you've just summarized the "anti" argument better than I could
    have ever hoped to...
    
    
    glenn
    

    
    Why does someone always seem touchy when they reply to the insults of
    others? Mikey stick that touchy up there too. Being probably the only
    lifelong Cowboy fan in here I get a little tired of that BS. But what
    can you expect when so many of you have been cheering for losers for so
    long you have nothing better to do than belittle those rooting for 
    winning teams. 
    
    
    The mans name is Whistling Ray, and for my money he can go home and
    take his whistle with him. 
    
    
    Super Bowl trip #8 to Pheonix just around the corner. 
                           

So Cad, let's talk about how long you've been a Cowboy fan....

What year did you start liking them?  "All my life" is a very relative
term.   Lots of folks I know who like the Cowboys have liked them "all their
life", but the funny part is that the started liking them when it was the
fashionable thing to do.

I'm not putting you down or insulting you or anything, but when I started
watching Football, the Cowboys were not America's Team and I was wondering if
you were watching them then too.....


Just tryin' to get the fax....8^)


'Saw

  What are the Cowboy's doing in the Braves notes file?

  I suppose we should qualify this and say the Braves are America's Baseball
Team to keep those cowpolks in their own file. 

  One day 9 hours to go:

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

    
    I started in 1960 in the Cotton Bowl 1-13 I was 11 at the time. Eddie
    Lebaron ( Atlanta's GM) the 5ft 6in QB was at the helm. They had drafted 
    Dandy Don from SMU and Bob Lily from TCU. They had there best draft in 65 
    when Staubach and Morton came along. Starting in 65 they went to the 
    playoffs for straight 20 years. No team has ever matched that record. 
    
    I do consider that a lifelong fan, since I've been there for the
    life of the team. I was a Giants fan before the Cowboys.
    
    

>
>    
>    I started in 1960 in the Cotton Bowl 1-13 I was 11 at the time. Eddie
>    Lebaron ( Atlanta's GM) the 5ft 6in QB was at the helm. They had drafted 
>    Dandy Don from SMU and Bob Lily from TCU. They had there best draft in 65 
>    when Staubach and Morton came along. Starting in 65 they went to the 
>    playoffs for straight 20 years. No team has ever matched that record. 
>    

You know, Cad, up through this point I was startin' to like you.  You're older
than me, you've known some LEAN times with the Boys, which puts you head and
shoulders above all the Johnny_Come_Lately_Cowboy_Faux_Fans.....  You know
football from when Men played it....  (I started watching football in 1965/66
or so)


>    I do consider that a lifelong fan, since I've been there for the
>    life of the team. I was a Giants fan before the Cowboys.

This is the part that kilt me though.  8^)

I can almost see it, wherein Landry left the Giants coaching staff to
coach the Cowboys, and let's face it, Landry was brilliant and is just a notch
below the exalted Lombardi in my personal Pantheon of Football Gods.....


Well, I'll tell you what Cad, you've earned my respect......


'Saw
    
    

    
    Thanks Frank, It's appreciated.

	If'n there's any single reason why I abhore the Braves
	and the Cowboys, it would be the self-appointed titles
	of "America's Team" they've bestowed upon themselves.

	I figure there's more Americans who refuse to jump on
	their respective bandwagons than there are those who've
	been sucked in.


	billl

  Are you sure they are self appointed?

  Nick-names come from all sorts of places.

  In the case of Atlanta the name may come from the fact that many American
League regions see the Braves as their 2nd team due to Turners TBS "Super
Station". They are America's team because that's the area in which they are
seen.

  George

    
    Bill,
    
      How many times do we have to go through this BS. NFL properites gave
    the Cowboys that name, not the Cowboy orginization. Americans love
    winners. When your in the playoff's 25 of 35 years you gain fans from
    all areas.  You also gain people that can't stand the sight of you.

    
    
        Isn't there a commercial on TBS that states watch America's team
    play vs ??????? this thursday night?
    
       Sounds pretty self appointed to me.

>       Sounds pretty self appointed to me.

It is.  They've been doing it since TBS became a superstation.  The
Braves were losing 90 games a year and calling themselves America's Team.

    
      Yes, TBS has advertised the Braves as 'America's Team' since I 
     first got cable. And that was back when their only bright spot 
     was Dale Murphy and they were about as much America's team as
     they were Bolivia's. It was a little marketing ploy that prob-
     ably played well down South where they were the only baseball
     game in town but it came off a little hokey up here in Red Sox
     country. 

  If you can't stand marketing, tell me you always eat generic cereal. This is
a team that knows how to make money and has been doing things to make money
since 1876. If other teams worked as hard at thinking of ways to bring in cash
they probably wouldn't be such a mess.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George 

    >> If you can't stand marketing, tell me you always eat generic cereal. 
    >> This is a team that knows how to make money and has been doing things 
    >> to make money since 1876. If other teams worked as hard at thinking of 
    >> ways to bring in cash they probably wouldn't be such a mess.

       I don't see where anyone said that they 'can't stand marketing' just 
       the self-appointed title 'America's Team'. They weren't. Aren't. And
       won't ever be. As for knowing how to make money. That ain't the Braves. 
       Turner made his money in cable TV not in baseball. You may have heard
       of CNN, TNT, TBS, etc. The Braves are just cheap programing like 
       Andy Griffith reruns. 
    

>  If you can't stand marketing, tell me you always eat generic cereal.

Correct on both counts.  Well, not exactly - I eat generic cereal about 70%
of the time.  I'm not awake anyway, and am just trying to shovel something
into my stomach...

>
>  If you can't stand marketing, tell me you always eat generic cereal. This is
>a team that knows how to make money and has been doing things to make money

Believe it or not, I do.

I figure why pay more then $4 a box for General Mills Honey Nut Cheerios when
I can buy America's Choice (fergit what they call them) for $2.50.  Same thing
with Oatmeal.  Quaker is $3.50, America's Choice is $1.99.

Now, of course, I don't know if America's Choice is a self appointed name or
whether The Grocery Consortium gave the name to Waldbaum's....



'Saw

So, George, what's your answer to this wave of generic cereal eaters??? :-)

> Now, of course, I don't know if America's Choice is a self appointed name or
> whether The Grocery Consortium gave the name to Waldbaum's....
    
    My guess is that Waldbaum's is just being very pretentious in speaking
    for all of America (we don't have no stinkin' Waldbaum's up here),
    but like the Dallas Cowboys they'll cop a plea and blame it on the
    Consortium.
    
    Funny how the Cowboys are part of NFL Properties when they want to
    be, and have no use for them when they don't...
    
    glenn
    

  I'm having a real hard time seeing what's the big deal with giving yourself
a nick-name. So big deal some P.R. guy came up with a name and they stuck it on
their program. So what? Somehow I feel there's something else that's getting
people pissed off about the Braves, there's too much heat here for it to be
nothing more than some marketing gimmick.

  Marketing aside, this team was born and raised in Boston, lived in Boston for
76 years, and as far as I'm concerned they are still as much a Boston team as
the Red Sox who have only played here about 20 more years than the Braves. 

  But then if others want to root for Groner's team, that's fine. Makes for
more excitement.

  Only 1 day 6.5 hours to go,
  GO BRAVES!!!!
  George

I don't like the Boston Redsocks because they have a self-appointed name 
of the "Bo Socks".  Good team but they weren't, aren't and never will be 
Bo's Socks. :-)

-Andy

RE           <<< Note 247.72 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's pancake time!" >>>

>So, George, what's your answer to this wave of generic cereal eaters??? :-)

  Personally I like my Kellog's Frosted Flakes. The Tiger is right, they are
Grrrrrrrrrrrrate!. Worth the 50c or what ever.

  George

>  Marketing aside, this team was born and raised in Boston, lived in Boston for
>76 years, and as far as I'm concerned they are still as much a Boston team as
>the Red Sox who have only played here about 20 more years than the Braves. 

 Yabbut, George, you actually grew up, raised a family, and retired from your
 first job back when the Braves were in Boston.  Most of us weren't yet born
 when they moved to Milwaukee.

  Actually I was born the year the Boston Braves were in the World Series.

  But was it 1914, or 1948? You'll only know by sawing me down and counting
the rings.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

>  But was it 1914, or 1948? You'll only know by sawing me down and counting
>the rings.

I'd enjoy the opportunity... :-)

America's Choice used to be something different until very recently, but I
can't remember what.  Basically it's the store brand.

I think Waldbaum's (Food Marts, and Edwards Food Warehouses) are local to this
area.

Just like we don't have Safeway, or Star Markets.  


'Saw

	or my favorite...Piggly Wiggly


	billl

  What a weekend for the Braves!!!!! 

  Maddux pitched a gem Saturday going all the way for a complete game. Huge
home run by the "Crime Dog" Fred McGriff. 

  Sunday Glavine pitched well enough, coming up with big strikeouts at key
times and keeping the Indians off their timing. He and the bullpen kept the
Braves in the game long enough for the offense to generate a few runs and for
Wolhers to slam the door in the 9th for the save. This time it was the young
guys, Chipper Jones and Javy Lopez who drove in the runs when they were needed.

  It was fun listening to Bob Costas fail miserably at trying to bury the
Braves past in Boston. After going on at length about how the Braves never won
since moving to the south and using what ever skill he had to avoid mentioning
where they had moved from he got tripped up trying to talk about the Indians
past. When he came to their last championship it was "against the ... uh ...
ooops ... The uh Braves ... when they were in ... uh ... Boston".

  Bummer seeing Jeff Blauser ineligible for the series.

  My prediction is that this will be the series in which Chipper Jones emerges
as a house hold name.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

>  It was fun listening to Bob Costas fail miserably at trying to bury the
>Braves past in Boston. After going on at length about how the Braves never won
>since moving to the south and using what ever skill he had to avoid mentioning
>where they had moved from he got tripped up trying to talk about the Indians
>past. When he came to their last championship it was "against the ... uh ...
>ooops ... The uh Braves ... when they were in ... uh ... Boston".

Costas emerges from behind a grassy knoll to character-assassinate the
Braves - film at 11...

You're too funny, George.  If he trips over his tongue while doing a promo,
does he hate the product?

  It wasn't a promo, it was at the beginning when they were talking about the
history of the two teams. The way Costas was talking about the Braves you would
have thought they were an expansion team until he stuck his foot in his mouth. 

  He had just talked about how the Braves had never won and how the Indians had
gotten swept in '54. He then went back and tried talking about how "of course
the Indians had won a couple times earlier, once in '20 and once in '48 when
they beat" ... who? You mean this isn't an expansion team?

  No mention of the Braves wins in 1914 and 1957 or word one of how they owned
the National League in the 19th century, so it was fun to see him trip over
his own words.

  2 down, 2 to go, GO BRAVES!!!!!
  George

  That was quite a pickoff play engineered by Javy Lopez. The network did a
pretty good job of catching his signal to Pena for a high inside fastball and
his throw down to 1st. And what a throw, right on the money. 

  That was a boost for Lopez, he'd been having problems with guys running on
him all night, sometimes not even attempting a throw. 

  Lofton continued his aggressive running throughout both games. Seems he's
a bit too aggressive. He's gotten away with it so far, wonder if his luck will
hold or if he'll run them out of a big inning at some point? Either way, he's
an amazing player.

  George

    
    Costas has a better knowledge of baseball history than almost all
    other national broadcasters put together.  He just correctly 
    recognizes Boston's influence on this Braves' franchise, as, uh,
    negligible.
    
    Good to hear Joe Morgan in the booth.  Even with Uecker's occasional 
    histrionics ("oh, that's plenty of horse there, Bob, he can carry 
    you" ;-), these guys are all over Michaels/Palmer/McCarver.  Must
    be something about ABC, because like with the MNF team, these guys
    suffer from the "just won't shut up" disease with the trivia and 
    stats.  A lot of people like Tim McCarver for some reason, but with 
    all the bad puns, jokes and meaningless asides he's just got to have 
    one of the poorest senses of humor ever heard in a broadcast booth.
    
    Javy Lopez impresses the hell out of me.  Everyone knew he could
    hit, but the defense was supposed to be a question mark.  Give 
    Bobby Cox the nod so far for managerial decision of the Series on
    that called pickoff play in last night's game.  Someone in that
    dugout was paying attention to Ramirez' "cheating", and they 
    caught him.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
      First of all Chipper Jones has been a hosehold name for about
    two years.  Watched him hammer Clemens in a rehab start last year.
    If nobody knew about him prior to the series everyone knows about
    him and his herpes now.  (For Imus listeners).  Secondly don't count
    out the Tribe yet.  Yea they have Smoltz going in game 3 but he can
    be on the wild side and if he has an off night forget it.  I also
    guessing that Cox goes with Avery in game 4, he hasn't pitched well
    all year and could get lit up.
    
    Jerry

    >> He just correctly recognizes Boston's influence on this Braves' 
    >> franchise, as, uh, negligible.
    
       No kidding. Other than George, no one cares what the Braves did
       in the 19th century. In Boston, damn few care what they've done
       in the latter part of the 20th. 

  Well you can't have it both ways. Sure, the 1914 Boston Braves that swept the
Athletics in 4 and the 1957 Milwaukee Braves that beat the Yankees have nothing
to do with todays Braves. Likewise the 1920 Indians who beat the Dodgers don't
have anything to do with this Indians team either. For that matter, the 1948
and 1954 Indians don't have anything to do with this team but people talk about
them all the time. 

  All sports is frivolous. By definition it is frivolous. So implying that
I'm being frivolous for taking about the "Boston" Braves is meaningless. 

  I'm a Boston Braves fan! I'm a RABID Boston Braves fan!! And the fact that
they pack their trunks and move once in a while means nothing!!

  They are the BOSTON BRAVES and they'll always be the BOSTON BRAVES!!. And
I want to see them WIN THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!

  GO BRAVES!!!!!!
  George 

    
    	You'll need a time machine to watch the "Boston Braves" win
    	a world series.........
    
    Claybone

In his post-game discussion last evening, Costas said it was an almost 
certainty that Cox will pitch Avery in the 4th game.  Personally, I 
believe that, while Cox may indeed start Avery game 4, I do not believe
he will if they loose game 3 (JMO).

-Andy

  Cox said he'll wait until they get to Cleveland to decide. Today will
be Maddux's day to work and they'll watch him and see how it goes.

  One thing going for Maddux is that in spite of pitching a complete game
his pitch count was low. He only needed something like 96 pitches to get
27 outs on Saturday.

  Regarding Avery, it's true he had a bad year but he seems to have come
around. He pitched well his last few times out this year. Also he's done
well in post season in the past.

  Of course he's more of a fast ball pitcher and it's the junk that Maddux
and Glavine throw that seems to be causing more problems for the Indians.

  George

    
    Maddux is a lock for game 4 having faced only 29 batters in game 1
    he should be rested enough to hold the Indians again. I would not give
    the tribe a chance to get back into it by pitching  Avery after the
    difficult year he's had up to this point.

    I disagree.  I would give Maddox his normal rest which I assume is four
    days.  To move him up would be a mistake and if that game was lost it
    would put unnatural pressure on the entire rotation.  If the Braves
    simply didn't have a pitcher nearly of Avery's caliber I'd consider it
    or if Avery was right handed.  Perhaps I just like Avery.  I'd go with
    him period at this point, certainly in a 3-0 situation.
    
    In fact at 3-0 I think the only way to blow the series would be moving
    Maddox up.
    
    But that's the beauty of sports, especially baseball.  Entirely
    different points of view.

  If they are up 3 zip it probably doesn't matter much what they do. They could
pitch Avery on Wednesday and if he wins fine, sweep. If not they have the top 3
pitchers in their normal rotation. 

  The question is what happens if Smoltz loses and the series is at 2-1. Then
Wednesday becomes more important. The temptation would be to use Maddux but if
they do and he loses because he's not ready, that leaves them all tied up
having to decide if Glavine and Smoltz should go on short rest. 

  Of course I'll bet that Kennedy and Penella would love to have been in
Cox's shoes 2 games up on the Indians wondering if they should bring back
Maddux on 3 or 4 days rest with Glavine and Smoltz in the wings.

  George

    
> The question is what happens if Smoltz loses and the series is at 2-1. Then
> Wednesday becomes more important. The temptation would be to use Maddux but if
> they do and he loses because he's not ready, that leaves them all tied up
>  having to decide if Glavine and Smoltz should go on short rest. 
    
    At 2-1, this should be a no-brainer, go with Maddux.  The guy has
    not been stressed a bit over the entire postseason, and as pointed
    out his effort in Game 1 was light.  He's one of the best pitchers
    in baseball history and he literally toyed with the mighty Indians
    in Game 1.  Maddux in 4, Maddux in 7 on three days' rest again if 
    necessary.
    
    glenn
    

    Well in 1964 Mauch needed one more victory to clinch the pennant (or so
    he thought) and brought Bunning back with short rest and lost.  He then
    did the same with Bennett, another loss and the rest is history.
    
    I have a feeling like I did with the crazy met and the rangers - devils
    series.  Therefore I predict... if he pitches Maddox out of turn,
    disaster.  Just like my world series bets (which fortunately are
    imaginary).

  Both pitchers were getting generous calls in Game 1.

  Didn't Maddux pitch game 4 in both rounds of playoffs on 3 days rest?

  At any rate, Glenn is right, unless he's got some physical problem if the
series is 2-1 they should go with Maddux.

  If it's 3-0 any strategy will do.

  George

    
    Groaner  
    
       If you'll check it out. He had a AL ump in game 1. The ump last night
    was NL. I cant believe this, but I agree with George, both pitchers got
    a few calls in game 1.

    I believe the NL ump had home plate for game 1.  In the past they'd
    alternate each game, which is most likely what they're doing still.
    Both umps were consistent for all pitchers.  As a matter of fact, I saw
    Martinez throw an outside fastball to David Justice in Game 2, that 
    wasn't even close.  All you can ask is for the ump to be consistent.
    
    I thought the biggest key of Game 1 was when Hargrove chose to play
    his infield at DP depth with the bases loaded, nobody out, and a 1-1
    score in the bottom of the seventh.  What the hell was he thinking!  It
    wasn't as if they were exactly teeing off on Maddux and were about to
    bust out and score a bunch of runs.  As it turned out, Vizquel booted a
    grounder and was the beneficiary of a bad call by the second base ump. 
    Now if you want to talk about bad calls there's a perfect example.
    The key thing about the play besides Cleveland getting a gift, is that 
    one run scored and it had to give Atlanta a huge lift.  If they hold 
    Atlanta in that situation it's a different ball game, but hey it's
    always easier to make the call when sitting in your living room!
    
    					Steve

	Whichever team is the home team has the HP umpire from their league in
	game 1, then the umpires rotate positions, so:

	Game 1:  HP NL, 1b AL, 2b NL, 3b AL, lf(?) NL, rf(?) AL
	     2:     AL,     NL,   AL,    NL,       AL,       NL
	     3:     NL,    AL,    NL,    AL,       NL,       AL
	     4:     AL,     NL,   AL,    NL,       AL,       NL
	     5:     NL,    AL,    NL,    AL,       NL,       AL
	     6:     AL,     NL,   AL,    NL,       AL,       NL
	     7:     NL,    AL,    NL,    AL,       NL,       AL


	Regarding the comments about Lopez' defense:  I don't think NL
	observers question whether Lopez is a good defensive catcher; he is.
	But, the Braves staff is so poor at holding on runners that he rarely
	gets a chance to throw out runners.

    well I'm not sure if Vizquel had fielded that grounder cleanly he'd
    have had a dp but a good chance - so where's the criticism of Hargrove?
    Sounds like he made the right call - pulling the infield in can result
    in big innings.  DP depth is very common.
    
    I saw another criticism of Lofton "almost" making the 3rd out at 3rd
    base - I don't comprehend this type of critique but it was Shaughnessy
    so perhaps that says it all.
    
    The only Hargrove criticism I'd listen to is not walking Lopez to pitch
    to 8 and 9 hitters.  This is the more sophisticated n.l. mindset (non
    dh) as opposed to 6th grade education needed for the double switch.
    
    By the way, Avery is a definite for game four regardless of tonight's
    outcome [Glenn!].

RE                      <<< Note 247.105 by AKOCOA::BREEN >>>
    
>    I saw another criticism of Lofton "almost" making the 3rd out at 3rd
>    base - I don't comprehend this type of critique but it was Shaughnessy
>    so perhaps that says it all.

  I'm not sure but I think the criticism had something to do with the Indians
being down at least 2 runs. If that were true then the only way they would
catch up would be if something happened that would have brought Lofton in from
2nd anyway (i.e. at least another hit to the outfield). 

  In other words, his run "didn't count", which is TV announcer slang for "it
counts, but you need more offense after this guy anyway so he's better off
not taking chances and running them out of the inning".

  George

    
    these announcers and writers are so by the book it's rediculous. Don't
    they realize the emotional advantage of the type of play Lofton made?
    
     mike

    
    It's a unwritten rule. You never make the first or last out at third.
    With two outs Lofton made a stupid play. Luckily the throw was off or
    the game would have been over on that bonehead play.

    
     unwritten rule. Is that like double secret probation????
     I'd rather see an agressive play than by the books anyday...
     it's only baseball, it's not like it's basketball or football.
     when it's all said and done who really cares?????
    
     mike

    re: Lofton
    
    Dumb play.  The meat of the order was coming up.  If McGriff makes a
    decent throw, the game's over.
    
    re: Hargrove
    
    Let's just say if that were my decision, I'd try to cut the run down 
    at the plate when you're facing a pitcher like Maddux.
    
    I was also cursing Hargrove for pulling Hershiser, only to find out 
    the following day that he asked out.  That's why baseball's the
    toughest game to manage, everyone thinks they're an expert!
    
    					Steve

>    I thought the biggest key of Game 1 was when Hargrove chose to play
>    his infield at DP depth with the bases loaded, nobody out, and a 1-1
>    score in the bottom of the seventh.  What the hell was he thinking!  It
    
    Tough call there, Steve.  Nobody out it's very tough to play the 
    infield in and think you're going to dodge the bullet _twice_, when
    the hit brings in multiple runs (1st-and-3rd would be a little
    different).  As it turned out, they got exactly the play they wanted, 
    but Vizquel booted the ball.  And the Indians did pick up that 2nd
    run they would have needed...
    
    glenn
    

    And he wasn't out, that's the point.
    
    Once teams get throwing the ball around anything can happen.
    
    The opposite of this is having the pitcher pitch from a full windup
    with two out and a man on second and a two run lead.

    
>    By the way, Avery is a definite for game four regardless of tonight's
>    outcome [Glenn!].
    
    Wow.  Since I'm pulling for the Indians, I'm all for it...
    
    
    glenn
    

>    Once teams get throwing the ball around anything can happen.
    
    Well, they can throw the ball around all they want, they're still
    not going to give up the tying run.  ;-)
    
    There's no "emotional advantage" to having that run score.
    Statistically, believe it or not, it's been shown that you're 
    better off having that guy still on third dancing around while
    the next batter is up.  With a guy like Maddux on the mound, 
    though, it doesn't make much difference.
    
    glenn
    

	I'm all for agressive baseball, but that was a
	grandstand play by Lofton.  He got REAL lucky.


	billl

    On Lofton's play- dumb play period. If he's safe, so what. If he
    scores, so what. If he's out, game over. Upside potential = 0. Downside
    = catastrophy. Stupid.
    
    On Avery- Indians fans better not get too excited. Avery shut down the
    Reds in Game 4 to close them out. He's always pitched well in the
    postseason, and his last four outings were very good. The real key for
    the Braves is to win at least one game in Cleveland. If Smoltz and
    Avery fail, they have a fully rested Maddux whose current road winning
    streak is a major league record. Avery was told before the Series that
    if the Braves won both games in Atlanta, he was pitching game 4.
    
    Like somebody else said, the worst thing to do is try to shorten the
    rotation. Beating the Braves 4 out of 5 is extremely difficult if the
    starters are fully rested.
    
    As a RON usually, thanks to all for the last thirty or so replies. It's
    nice to read some comments about baseball instead of the inane drivel
    that occupied the vast majority of the first eighty replies to the base
    note.
    
    Chris

  Who ever pitches for the Braves will have to adjust to having a DH in the
lineup. No letup in the 9th slot.

  The flip side is that Klesko will probably DH for the Braves with Devereaux
or Dwight Smith playing the outfield. I'm curious as to what they do with
the lineup. Lemke was moved from 8th to 2nd when Blauser went down. I wonder
if they will have Devereaux/Smith hit 2nd, move Lemke back to 8th and Belliard
to 9th. Devereaux is a .299 hitter but strikes out twice for every time he
walks.

  George

    George,
    	They are starting Polonia and batting him second.

    Klesko to DH and bat 7th, Polonia in left to bat 2nd. Cox picked
    Polonia due to his recent AL experience and the fact that he has played
    
    

There's not much to choose from between Polonia and Klesko in left.  At
least Polonia gets to the ball quickly so he can wait longer before making
the error...

>    Cox picked
>    Polonia due to his recent AL experience and the fact that he has played

Having played the game is always helpful... :-)

On a more serious note:

I haven't gotten to see any of the Series to date - was Glavine really, really
solid, or are the Tribe really in a team slump?  (I know better than to ask
if Maddux was solid.)

I'm not sure that I'd play Polonia in left over Devereaux.  Devereaux is much
more solid defensively, and even though he's slower and K's a lot, he has a
lot more power, and they could hit Lemke 2nd and put Devereaux further down in
the order.

    
    Glavine admitted in the postgame interview that he did not have his
    good stuff. His fastball had no movement, but his changeup was working
    and took him out of the any serious trouble. He had a few 3-1 counts
    and go the batter to pop out or dribble an infield out. 
    
    In the early innings he let his fastball get up. Murray made him pay
    for one. The rest got by the Tribe. From the third on the change was
    his main pitch. In the first 15 innings of the series the Inidans had
    five hits. Five hits given up by your first two starters is a managers
    dream. 
    
    The Braves Bullpin will be the difference from the previous years
    playoff teams. The past years they had been close only to have the
    reliever's give up the winnings runs. 

RE           <<< Note 247.120 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's pancake time!" >>>

>I haven't gotten to see any of the Series to date - was Glavine really, really
>solid, or are the Tribe really in a team slump?  (I know better than to ask
>if Maddux was solid.)

  Glavine is never really solid. He slips some junk in here, tosses some junk
in there, really winds up and FIRES, THE BATTER SWING, oops it was the circle
change ... here it comes ... here it comes ... the batter is trying to untwist
... here it comes ... fllluuuuump into Lopez's mit.

  The announcers keep talking about how he's off his game but he gets the
batters timing so goofed up that no one seems to be able to take advantage of
the fact that he's "not pitching well". 

  George 

                  
> I haven't gotten to see any of the Series to date - was Glavine really, really
> solid, or are the Tribe really in a team slump?  (I know better than to ask
> if Maddux was solid.)
    
    Glavine was not that sharp.  A little wild by his standards, and no,
    the Indians did not take full advantage.
    
    Ask Chappy, Polonia is a stiff in all regards.  Including experience.
    Edge: Indians.  I think the Indians are going to win tonight, then
    shell Avery, and we'll all be second-guessing Bobby Cox come Thursday
    morning... ;-)
    
    
    glenn
    

>    Ask Chappy, Polonia is a stiff in all regards. 

I don't need to ask Chappy.  I've got eyes... :-)

Polonia is a much better Rotisserie player than a real baseball player.
Good (yet empty) batting average, lots of steals, poor defense.

    
    
       Oh yeah Polonia is definitely a Stiff. And he is not a defensive
    replacement!!!

  What a game!

  The Tribe is back in it now, down 2-1 with Avery on the mound you'd have
to say they were favored to tie it up at 2 each.

  Both teams should have tired closers at this point. I wish Cox would stop
using relief pitchers in the World Series who had failed in the American League
earlier in the season. First Reardon, now Pena. I had this sinking feeling
when he came in that it was all over.

  Game 4 tonight, Avery v. Hill

  GO BRAVES!!
  George

  People seem down on Smoltz right now which is to be expected but I wouldn't
count him out for the series. If he came back and pitched a Gem in game 7 it
wouldn't be the 1st time he's come back and pitched well. 

  As for what will happen, who knows. All of these games have been extremely
close and many have been decided by balls that did or did not go over a wall,
guys diving and either making a catch or just missing.

  If one thing seems obvious it's that these teams are both the best in their
league and they are evenly matched. If the Tribe wins tonight this could go
down as one of the greatest Series ever.

  George

>  People seem down on Smoltz right now which is to be expected but I wouldn't
>count him out for the series. If he came back and pitched a Gem in game 7 it
>wouldn't be the 1st time he's come back and pitched well. 

 That's true, Smoltz is the kind of pitcher who could throw a 4-hitter in
 game 7.  Then again, he might give up 5 in the first.  He is not one who
 will do well when he doesn't have his good stuff, unlike Maddux or Glavine
 who can and do win when they don't have everything going for them.

  Smoltz has always had strange mental problems with regard to pitching. They
even use to have his shrink go to games back around '91. 

  For some reason he use to have this habit of always giving up runs after his
team had scored runs. But he had no problem in high pressure situations if the
other pitcher was getting his guys out. 

  I guess the problems have changed now. Hopefully it's nothing more than
getting his slider across the plate and he'll work it out before he has to go
again. That is hopefully if you are a Braves fan.

  George

    It appeared to me that last night's umpire wasn't calling the low
    strikes or corners.  He *was* calling the high strike.  Smoltz looked
    pissed a couple of times when he didn't get what he thought were
    strikes.  I don't know if this was a factor in his not being able to
    throw his slider for strikes, but it could have been a mental thing,
    knowing his history.
    
    					Steve
    
                             

    
    I like the move Bobby Cox made pulling Smoltz out for the sidewinder
    Clontz. He comes in flips a few up there, nice little grounder to
    second flip to short and the pitchers best friend the ole 4-6-3 DP.
    
    At that point I thought the Braves might come back, and the did.
    Hargrove leaves Nagy in to long, gets two guys on and makes his second
    mistake. Assenmacher, Braves get two more runs, Traverse!sp lets
    Deveraux get a single to take the lead. Wohlters amd Mesa keep it 
    tied for the next 5 or 6 outs. 
    
    Cox brings Pena out of the pin, Game over.  You would think he would
    have learned his lesson with Pens in the past.

  Well the lesson he had learned in the past was that Pena could work as a set
up man and get them to Wohlers. Same with Greg McMichael, he had a 2.800 ERA on
the season. 

  I think Joe Morgan (was it him) said it quite well, the numbers these guys
put up, both pitchers and hitters, are averages and they are established over a
season in which they play a lot of guys that are no where as good as these two
teams.

  Any pitcher facing the Indians or Braves batters is going to get hit more and
any hitter facing the Indians or Braves pitcher is likely to get shut down
unless, of course, he's got his stuff working like Maddux or he's got a fire
light under his arss like Lofton does. 

  George

  Last night the Braves took a 3 games to 1 lead in the best of 7 World Series.
If they win one more they become the Champions of baseball for the 1st time
since 1957.

  But as the saying goes, it ain't over yet. In 1958 the Braves had the Yankees
down 3 games to 1 with Lew Burdette scheduled to pitch game 5 and Warren Spahn
scheduled to pitch game 6. They lost both those games, Lew Burdette came back
in game 7 and the Yankees beat him to win the series.

  Another more recent example was in 1979 when Baltimore had the Pirates
"fam-i-ly" down 3 games to 1 only to let it slip away. In game 7 Baltimore
coach Earl Weaver used just about his entire pitching staff in the 9th inning
including Dennis Martinez but the Pirates scored the go ahead run and won the
series in 7.

  Last night's 9th was nail biting time. It looked like a done deal when they
started the bottom of the inning with a comfortable 5-1 lead and Mark Wohlers
on the mound but when Manny Ramirez homered, someone doubled (was it Paul
Sorrento?), and Alejandro Pena started warming up in the bull pen I started
getting the same feeling I had during that almost unmentionable Red Sox World
Series loss back in '86.

  But then Pedro Borbon came in, struck out 2 batters and David Justice made a
great catch on a deep Kenny Lofton drive to right to end the game. What a
finish.

  Maddux goes for the Braves tonight against Hershiser. I'd give the edge to
the Braves but not by a lot, this Indians team is capable of getting to anyone
if they've seen him long enough. Tonight will be the Braves best shot at
winning the championship. 

  It will be Glavine for the Braves if they need game 6 but I believe that
Smoltz will get the call if they go to game 7. Yes he pitched a couple bad
innings but he's had more good innings than bad throughout the year and he's
still a great pitcher. If he can get control of his slider he'll be a totally
different pitcher than we saw Tuesday. 

  George

    Some thoughts from an Atlanta resident and fan -

    - Talk shows yesterday were killin' Cox about why he was starting Avery
    and not Maddux.  This brilliant decision is now being universally
    praised:-)

    - The local paper and talk shows (and from what I can tell, even those in
    Cleveland) are getting on Hargrove's case big time.  From playing the
    infield back, pitching to Lopez, etc., he's making Cox look like a
    genius.

    - I, like a lot of fans (IMO) are cautiously optimistic.  It ain't over
    till the last out, and any team is capable of getting to any pitcher,
    but I feel good about Maddux.  How's Hershiser?  He pulled himself from
    game one, how's his health?

    - I DO NOT need to sit through another ninth inning like last nights. 
    Fortunately Wohlers didn't stay out too long, and Borbon came in and
    looked great.  Not sure if Wohlers could pitch tonight either.  He had
    good velocity (the paper said 97, 98 and 99 mph on the first three
    balls), but just didn't "have it".

    Looking forward to tonight.

    UMDan 
    

>    - The local paper and talk shows (and from what I can tell, even those in
>    Cleveland) are getting on Hargrove's case big time.  From playing the
>    infield back, pitching to Lopez, etc., he's making Cox look like a
>    genius.


Well, the Series ain't over, but the talk on WFAN yesterday afternoon was that
Hargrove is finding out that managing in July is a little different than
managing in October.


>    - I, like a lot of fans (IMO) are cautiously optimistic.  It ain't over
>    till the last out, and any team is capable of getting to any pitcher,
>    but I feel good about Maddux.  How's Hershiser?  He pulled himself from
>    game one, how's his health?

Well, UMDan, I agree with your statement about the last out.  As a Red Sox fan,
I can only state to you four numbers: 1 - 9 - 8 - 6....

Wait till the boys are sippin' their champagne before you open yours -- that'd
be the best bet!


>    - I DO NOT need to sit through another ninth inning like last nights. 
>    Fortunately Wohlers didn't stay out too long, and Borbon came in and
>    looked great.  Not sure if Wohlers could pitch tonight either.  He had
>    good velocity (the paper said 97, 98 and 99 mph on the first three
>    balls), but just didn't "have it".

Wohlers had to be a bit tired, no?


'Saw

    

  You'd think Wohlers would have been tired and maybe he was. The funny part is
that he had his velocity. I think he was ok but he was just being Wohlers. It's
not at all uncommon for him to blow away several guys then give up a long ball.

  The Indians have some great hitters and sooner or later 1 or 2 guys are going
to catch up with one of those 99mph fast balls and crush it. Just like George
Brett getting a hold of that Goose Gossage fast ball in the ALCS back in, what
was it, 1980? Upper deck, K.C. went on to the World Series.

  George

	Typically the Wohlers fastball has quite a bit of movement on it.
	Last night, although he was in the 97-99 mph range, his pitches
	did not have any movement at all.

    
> Well, the Series ain't over, but the talk on WFAN yesterday afternoon was that
> Hargrove is finding out that managing in July is a little different than
> managing in October.
    
    You know, I'm getting tired of the criticisms of Grover.  He's _not_
    managing any differently than he did in July - he is _not_ a
    brilliant in-game manager, and never has been.  He still does silly
    things like hit Vizquel #2 and bench Thome for Espinoza, and still
    believes heavily in platooning pitchers.
    
    Hargrove's success has always been in (1) player development, and
    (2) team building.  The unfortunate possibility is that the
    Indians _might_ need a different manager now, though I'd rather
    they stick with Hargrove.
    
    Joe

Hey Joe, I was just tellin' ya what they said on the radio.

>> Well, the Series ain't over, but the talk on WFAN yesterday afternoon was that
>> Hargrove is finding out that managing in July is a little different than
>> managing in October.
>    
>    You know, I'm getting tired of the criticisms of Grover.  He's _not_
>    managing any differently than he did in July - he is _not_ a
>    brilliant in-game manager, and never has been.  He still does silly
>    things like hit Vizquel #2 and bench Thome for Espinoza, and still
>    believes heavily in platooning pitchers.

     And that's the point.  Managing in the World Series is different than
     managing a team with a double-digit lead in July, but Hargrove hasn't
     caught on to that fact yet.  It may be great to handle a pitching staff
     in July, trying to build confidence, etc., but when you are in the
     World Series (and for all we know, it might be Cleveland's only series
     appearance this decade), you have to do all you can to win it, and that
     implies some decent managing moves.

>He still does silly things like hit Vizquel #2

I don't think this is that silly.  I say this, however, while not being
privy to his strikeout numbers.  But if he's good with the bat and can
handle hitting with Lofton dancing around on the bases, I'd say he's a
pretty *good* guy to have at #2.  Who would you rather have?  Carlos "swing
if it's in the stadium" Baerga?  He can hit, but he's not a good #2 man.

    
>    Hargrove's success has always been in (1) player development, and
>    (2) team building.  The unfortunate possibility is that the
>    Indians _might_ need a different manager now, though I'd rather
>    they stick with Hargrove.
    
    But seriously, Joe, how different would this ballclub be in 
    departments (1) and (2) if they had a different manager than
    Hargrove?  I know about not questioning success, but the GM
    Hart is really the man.  We're talking about some awesome 
    talent, plus the very shrewd acquisitions of veterans Hershiser
    and Martinez for this season.  In-game managing is what it's
    all about for championship-caliber-talented teams.  There isn't
    much else.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    The man makes the same mistake two games in a row. Left the starter in
    to long and put Assenmacher in to recover. The Braves had Assenmacher
    on there staff for some time. He's the last guy I would put up. Next he
    follows with Traverse, this is the same guys that got spanked the night
    before.
    
    Cox went with Wohlers again, found out he had no movement and pulled
    him out for Borbon. The Indians had not seen Borbon and he sealed the
    win on three batters, starting with no outs and a man on.
    
     

    
    
    Groaner
    
    
      Assenmacher is a stiff.   He's blown the last two oportunites he's had to
    keep the game in the state it was in when he entered. 

    
>>    Hargrove's success has always been in (1) player development, and
>>    (2) team building.  The unfortunate possibility is that the
>>    Indians _might_ need a different manager now, though I'd rather
>>    they stick with Hargrove.
    
>    But seriously, Joe, how different would this ballclub be in 
>    departments (1) and (2) if they had a different manager than
>    Hargrove?
    
    That's a fair question; it is my belief that they would be a
    _much_ different team.  Without a manager who excels in
    player development, I'm not convinced that Belle (in particular),
    Lofton, Ramirez, or Thome would be where they are today.  Heck,
    I think on many teams Belle isn't just a headcase, but is out
    of baseball by this point instead of the subject of MVP arguments.
    
>    I know about not questioning success, but the GM
>    Hart is really the man.  We're talking about some awesome 
>    talent, plus the very shrewd acquisitions of veterans Hershiser
>    and Martinez for this season.
    
    Yes, Hart's done (generally) a very good job.  But there are
    managers who bring along young players well (like Hargrove),
    and those who don't (I suspect Pinella might be one).  Hart
    deserves a lot of credit for setting the table...
    
>    In-game managing is what it's
>    all about for championship-caliber-talented teams.  There isn't
>    much else.
    
    I disagree.  Without the other aspects, you have one or two shots,
    and that's it.  If you aren't building a sense of teamwork, you're
    going to watch some players you want to keep depart; if you aren't
    developing the young players, you aren't going to cope with the
    passage of time.
    
    And, IMHO, Hargrove's in-game managing _isn't_ horrible.  He's not
    great - he does make mistakes - but he's not bottom of the barrel,
    either.  And he has a _heck_ of a record - take a look as his
    minor league managing career sometime.  With little talent to
    speak of, he _consistently_ won in the minors.
    
    No, Grover's not the best manager in the majors.  I think Showalter's
    better, LaRussa is generally excellent, and there are a few others
    with more impressive accomplishments than Grover.  But if I'm Hart,
    Grover's my first choice to continue running the Indians.
    
    Re: Vizquel in the #2 hole.
    
    Put Thome there.  Why put one of the best OBP players in baseball
    _after_ the big RBI guys, instead of in front of them?
    
    Re: Frank
    
    I didn't mean to imply that you were criticizing Grover - I'm just
    tired of the criticism being thrown at him by the same reporters
    who were picking him as MoY just a few weeks back...
    
    Joe

RE: #2 hitter

>    Put Thome there.  Why put one of the best OBP players in baseball
>    _after_ the big RBI guys, instead of in front of them?

It's entirely possible that the factors I mentioned before might bother
him tremendously.  I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that Thome has a
healthy (but not exorbitant) amount of Ks in spite of the stellar OBP - 
Vizquel's OBP isn't as good, but he might be better at moving Lofton, et al,
into scoring position for the big RBI guys.

I doubt Thome has had to worry too much about the distraction of Eddie Murray
trying to steal a base from his current lineup slot.

You follow the Tribe far more closely than I - I'm not trying to convince you
that you're wrong, just that there's more to life for a #2 hitter than OBP.
(Although his OBP *is* important.) 

Re   <<< Note 247.146 by OLD1S::CADZILLA2 "Im gonna boogie till I go Blind" >>>

>      Assenmacher is a stiff.   He's blown the last two oportunites he's had to
>    keep the game in the state it was in when he entered. 

  But in game 4 or 5 of the ALCS he came in for a pivotal situation and got the
meat of the Mariners order out with runners on base that could have blown the
game wide open. How could they have known he wouldn't be able to do the same
thing here? 

  George

RE                      <<< Note 63.1603 by AKOCOA::BREEN >>>

>    For the third or fourth time, I attended a Braves game in 1952 at old
>    Braves field.  My main thought at the time was "for this I missed going
>    to Fenway?"
    
  Since I was only 4 I was a bit too young to go to games back then, what
was it like going to a game at Braves Field? Why was Fenway better?

  George

    It's all images George.  I did want to go because I'd been to Fenway
    and this was new.  The day was cloudy, my Fenway games were sunny. 
    Fenway had Ted, the Braves had Sam Jethroe.  Maybe Sam went hitless
    that game but I had his card and he was rookie of the year in 1950.
    
    Of course Ted struck out in the first game I went to at Fenway; "So,
    what's the big deal!  DiMaggio (Dom of course) had a few hits and a
    terrific catch in center, why isn't he the star?"  Pitying looks from
    the older fans.

  So what was the field like at Braves Stadium? Did it have any quirks like the
Fenway's wall or was it pretty symmetric? 

  I imagine it wasn't very big. I read once that one of the big attractions
of Milwaukee was that they had just built a bran new 28,000 seat stadium. Were
there seats all around?

  George

    Obviously, Maddox just didn't have it last night.  In retrospect, it
    was a good thing he didn't go in Game 4.  A performance like last night
    would have tied the series at 2, with Glavine going in Game 5 against
    Hershiser.  It could very easily have been the Braves facing
    elimination instead of the Indians.
    
    Is it likely that Cox will tinker with his lineup?  I've seen quite
    enough of Rafael Belliard to say the least.  Talk about an anemic bat. 
    This Mordecai (sp?) kid can't be any worse can he?  At least he has a
    chance of making contact with the pitch.  Belliard can't even get down
    a bunt.  I also wonder if we'll see Klesko and Justice switch positions 
    in the lineup.  McGriff isn't getting much to hit with Justice hitting
    behind him.  It seem to me at this point that Klesko and Jones are
    Atlanta's two most dangerous hitters.
    
    					Steve

    One more question that needs to be asked.  Will the Atlanta fans take
    their thumbs out of their bums and make some noise this weekend?
    
    					Steve

    I gotta belive that the stadium will be rockin' Saturday night.  While
    the city does not apperar to be as caught up in the Series as in years
    past, it's my opinion that there are a lot of fans (like myself), who
    are sitting at home on the edge of our seats hoping that the Braves
    win.  Once they do, the place will explode.
    
    And I agree that maybe Belliard needs to sit down.  Used to be he hit
    the ball once in a while, now he looks lost.
    
    I like tommorow's matchup a lot more than Game 7's (if necessary).
    
    UMDan

  Looks like I won't need to clip my fingernails for some time to come, this
one looks like it's headed down to the wire. So far they are right on track to
repeat 1958.

  Up 3 games to 1 the Braves sent out their Ace just like they sent out Lew
Burdette against the Yankees in '58 and he got pummeled. Well OK, not pummeled
like guys get pummeled during the regular season but he obviously wasn't the
same guy who pitched Game 1. 

  Were those two home runs at the end of the game huge or what? Both of them
crushed, tape measure jobs. And the two line drives snagged by the pitchers
were something else as well. Both cases of sticking out a glove then finding
"lookie at what I've got here".

  Right now I'd say odds are slightly in favor of there being a game 7 on
Sunday night, the Indians have started to hit. 

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

	Has anyone done a calculation of the "ex-Cubs factor"
	yet?




	billl

RE: Braves fans

There were reports on this morning's radio that there were in excess of 1,000
(perhaps 2,000) people at the airport this morning to greet the Braves as 
they arrived at approx. 2:30am.  If I was to speculate, I would expect the
stadium to be rocking Saturday (and Sunday if they get that far).

I said early on this will go 6 games.  I still feel this way; I think Saturday
will be judgement day!

-Andy

    
>	Has anyone done a calculation of the "ex-Cubs factor"
>	yet?
    
    Well, we've got Greg Maddux for one, and that stiff Paul "always 
    walk the first batter for good measure" Assenmacher as another.
    Somehow that doesn't seem a wash (although after last night the
    gap has closed).
    
    Oh yeah, the Braves also have Dwight Smith.  Maybe last night _was_
    the beginning of the end...
    
    glenn
    
    
    glenn
    

	> Braves 2, Indians 1


	This explains a great deal regarding their recent
	problems in the WS.


	billl

    George I was very young, probably 7 when I went.  Braves field had a
    "jury" box in right field, held 28k and had a small but raucous, loyal
    following who as you know never stopped following.  I have friends and
    relatives still cheering the Braves on after all these years.
    
    I still think ol' Bobby Cox has a big decision Sunday night, I just
    don't think Glavine will win Saturday.  Smoltz will have the freshest
    arm and the Indians if they get to Sunday will have had plenty of
    lefties to get used to.  It would be hard not to choose Avery to save
    the bacon, though.

	Congrats to the Indians fans for the Tribe victory last night.
	[Haven't had a chance to get in here today yet.]  Cleveland had
	their most productive night of the series last night, in my mind,
	making necessary adjustments and doing a good job at hitting,
	with the Belle 1st-inning HR and Sandy Alomar's hits being a
	good sample of that.

	Keys to the Indians victory last night:

	Cleveland hitters seemed to adjust after a dismal performance against
	Maddux in game one.

	OTOH, Maddux had probably his next-to-worst game of the season, in
	terms of control.  For example, I believe I heard that Maddux had not
	walked two batters in the first inning as a Brave.  He was constantly
	behind in the count, which is extremely rare for him, and unfortunately
	with the type of game he pitches, he has to be getting strikes early in
	the pitch count.  [Note, even the announcers remarked that he was quite
	efficient when ahead in the count, even last night.]  While he will
	have no other opportunity to prove it in this series, I suspect that
	if he made a third appearance against Cleveland, his pitching would be
	more like game 1 than game 5.  Even so, 4 runs on 7 hits in 7 innings
	kept the Braves close, and is as good as most pitchers would do in a
	7-inning stint against Cleveland.

	Probably the two key plays of the game, as it turned out, were pitches
	Orel might liked to have had back.  Bases loaded, one out in the
	sixth, tie game at 2, Polonia (already having homered), hits a shot
	but right at Vizquel, who turns the DP.  Top of eighth, lead runner on
	for Atlanta, Grissom hits another shot (hardest hit of night for
	Atlanta, except for Klesko's bomb) up the middle, and Orel happened to
	catch it at the end of the webbing in his glove, and threw out Mike
	Mordecai at first for the DP.  Had either hit been in a slightly
	different place, the Braves might have gone to extra innings, but that's
	baseball.

	Jose Mesa wasn't that impressive to me the other night (3 innings,
	2 innings with runners in scoring position, the other had the lead
	runner on but got the DP).  Last night he was less impressive, giving
	up a long fly ball out to Chipper Jones, the single to McGriff,
	Justice's weak grounder, then a blast by Klesko to bring the Braves
	within one, before Lemke fanned to end it.  The lest handed bats still	
	seem to be getting around on Mesa.

	I suspect Cox will be second guessed a lot on bringing in Clontz to
	pitch the entire eighth, but who else was there ?  Wohlers and Pena
	weren't up to it, and McMichael had pitched 2 innings yesterday plus the
	day before.  Probably Cox should have had Clontz pitch to Belle, and
	had Borbon come in for Murray and Thome, but after Belle whiffed, he 
	gave Clontz a shot at Murray, and Eddie grounded out weekly, so he 
	figured that Clontz had good low stuff, and gave him a chance to get
	Thome.  That had to have been the longest home run in a W.S. game in
	a long, long time.

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                    Boston Braves, World Series Champs


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                    Milwaukee Braves, World Series Champs


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                    Atlanta Braves, World Series Champs


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  George                           111111111111

  Hey, I'm not the 1st one to say it. Someone else said it earlier, "if you go
back to the old system", Boston wins. 

  NBC finally gave credit where it was due and pointed out that the Braves are
the 1st team in Baseball to win a championship in three different cities.
Thinking back I was wrong earlier, it was Al Michaels, not Bob Costas who
seemed to be implying that the Braves were an expansion team. Glenn's right,
Costas knows baseball.

  Also, the South finally won, congradulations to the people in the Atlanta for
their first championship in any of the big 4 sports. 

  George 

	Morris certainly wasn't as sharp in his victory as Glavine was on
	Saturday.  Can't say about Lew B.

	The one Cleveland hit was a bloop single.  There was only one really
	hard hit ball, Lofton's leadoff fly ball in the first.

                           HOW SWEET IT IS!

    An amazing combined one-hitter, along with Justice's solo HR mad for
    quite the exciting night.  Justice had to do something or risk getting
    run out of town for the comments he made on Friday.  Oh well, all is
    forgiven.

    Couple of points -

    I think Cox's move to keep Belliard in the game was validated by the
    first play of the ninth inning.  Getting Lofton out was HUGE.  I did
    not want to see him on base at all.

    Glavine pitched the finest game of his life.  Vindication for him in a
    way as he started the season by getting boo'ed for being the player rep
    during the strike.

    Cox finally gets all of the second guessers on the call in shows off
    his back.  I believe that his coaching decisions helped the Braves more
    than Hargroves helped the Tribe's.

    Good pitching will beat good hitting.  Count on it.

    Atlanta finally gets a World Championship in a Major Sport.  The glow
    of victory is always sweet to bask in.  Parade starts at noon, but not
    sure if I'll be able to get there.  Maybe close to 1 million people
    there.

    Gotta go out and get my souvenirs soon.  Probably scarf up some
    T-shirts and hats.

    It's a great Monday.

    UMDan

    Dave Justice for Pres.
    	He would do alot better then Clinton.

    Baseball cards?
    	I am looking for Atlanta Cards and /or stuff because I have over 4K
    Atlanta cards I have been collecting them since 1989.  I am also
    looking for other items, because I also have towels, signed baseballs,
    posters, hats and autographed baseball cards of the starting pitchers
    and I am looking to expand my collection.  If interested in trading (
    Different teams) not Atlanta or cash or questions.
    Please write CSLALL::Bergeron or  Scott Bergeron @WOO

RE    <<< Note 247.166 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "the dream is always the same..." >>>

>    What does 
>    > "if you go back to the old system", Boston wins.
>    mean?

  Just what it says.

  George

  Read the title, under the old system the Braves were in Boston.

  The Braves have now evened up the score from 1948 when the Indians beat the
Boston Braves in 6. The Braves and Indians have now each beaten each other
once in the World Series and are 6-6 overall in World Series games played head
to head.

  Guess they'll have to do it again to break the tie.

  George

  Multiple choice:

    The team that won the World Series was founded and played for 80 years in:

      A) Cleveland
      B) Boston

  The Braves were born in Boston, played in Boston for 80 years and are named
after a Boston social club. So now they live in Atlanta, do you disown your
children just because they leave home to go seek their fortune elsewhere? 

  Boston / Milwaukee / Atlanta Braves, World Series Champs
  George

    
    	George I would be willing to bet that most people in the US could
    care less that the Braves ever played in Boston. I also doubt that most
    of those people ever knew they played in Beanburg 50 years ago. 
    
    
    The Atlanta Braves, not the Milwaukee Braves or the Boston Braves won 
    the 1995 World Series. Neither of those cities had anything to do with
    the Braves winning this series.  

    The listed attendance for 1952 was 280,000 or 3000 per game for 77
    home dates.  There were doubleheaders on most Sundays so I'll make that
    3500 per game.  I can't really believe that figure, sounds like someone
    was pocketing a lot of cash.
    
    I believe the washington redskins football team also played in Boston
    but I've found scarcely any of those fans in my travels, maybe one.

  I can see two lines of reasoning that make sense.

  1). None of the teams today have much of anything to do with the past. The
      only existing teams that have really won the World Series in baseball
      are the Atlanta Braves and maybe the Toronto Blue Jays and Twins to some
      extent. Most other teams who have won in the past have long since fallen
      apart and have only a handful of players left from their championship
      years if any.

  2). History matters and today's team does have something to do with teams
      from the past. The Indians won in 1920, and 1948 and the Braves won in
      1914, 1957, and 1995.

  Take your pick. If you are arguing the 1st point fine, the Red Sox, Indians,
Yankees, A's, Dodgers have never won. But if history counts and teams are
related to those that went before, then the Braves who were born in Boston,
moved to Milwaukee, and now live in Atlanta won in 1914, 1957, and 1995.

  George

  You are ducking the question. Take your pick, do you believe

  1). Today's teams have nothing to do with teams that won with different
      players just a few years ago or

  2). Today's teams are linked by history to the past.

  This is a question Groner will never answer because if he picks 1 then he
can never again make a big deal about how his team won in 1948 and the the
Sox haven't won since 1918 but if he picks 2 then Boston's team just beat
the Indians.

  George

>  2). Today's teams are linked by history to the past.

   The 1995 World Champion Atlanta Braves are linked to Boston in the
   same degree that a person, horribly abused as y a child, then removed
   from the custody of the parents for the good of the child, legally
   adopted by another set of parents, is related to the original birth parents
   when the "child" makes good at the age of 55 or 60.

   That's the kind of relationship this is, and the one George holds dear
   to his heart.

  I think it's really nuts to put restrictions on what reasons are valid for
being a fan. If I want to think of baseball teams in historical context and if
I want to be a Braves fan because they came from Boston, where is the law that
says I can't do that? 

  And if it's frivolous to feel that way then fine, but answer me this, do you
really think you are any less frivolous for being a fan of a team who's owners
you never met and who's players come from all over the country just because you
grew up in the same town where they now play? 

  George 

  So fine, you're a Braves fan.

  The only reason for being a fan is entertainment and if you're entertained
more by being a Braves fan than by being an Indians fan, why not. Welcome
to the club.

  George

  Ok fine, welcome to the club anyway.

  George

    >> George I would be willing to bet that most people in the US could
    >> care less that the Braves ever played in Boston. I also doubt that most
    >> of those people ever knew they played in Beanburg 50 years ago. 
    
       You could change "most people in the US" to "most people in Boston"
       and be on very safe ground. George's little stance is clearly a
       case of consider the source.

>  I think it's really nuts to put restrictions on what reasons are valid for
>being a fan. If I want to think of baseball teams in historical context and if
>I want to be a Braves fan because they came from Boston, where is the law that
>says I can't do that? 

 No one says you can't do that.  But, you should recognize that just because
 you feel it is a valid reason (and it may be valid for you), it is possible
 that everyone else in the entire world thinks it is a crazy reason, and that
 it is without any reason.  Doesn't mean you can't hold that opinion.

 And we can ask TTom, but I do think there are laws here in the south that
 cover the specific circumstances you describe.

>  And if it's frivolous to feel that way then fine, but answer me this, do you
>really think you are any less frivolous for being a fan of a team who's owners
>you never met and who's players come from all over the country just because you
>grew up in the same town where they now play? 

 Actually, I have met Ted Turner.  So far as you know, maybe that is the reason
 I am a Braves fan, because I pity any player who has to deal with the man.

 And, yes, BTW I do think it is less frivolous, FWIW.

    And to complete this mess why doesn't someone bring up Figure Skating!
    
    Last I heard the Braves were NOT flying up to Boston to attend the big
    rally at Feniel(sp) Hall.
    
    The tema that won is Atlanta's tema, the team that has been here for
    30 years, when at times nobody watched them (a la Cleveland), and at
    times when the world watched them (WS and Aaron's 715).  If you want to
    call them the Boston etc. Braves, fine.  Your opinions are your own
    treasures.  No one in Atlanta thinks of them as Bostons team, just as
    no one in DC thinks of the 'Skins as Bostons team.
    
    The Braves won, they beat Cleveland (who hit .179), end of story.  I'll
    just have to see if Time-Warned can keep this team together, which is
    highly unlikely given that the payroll would have to go to about $60M.
    
    UMDan

    
>   The 1995 World Champion Atlanta Braves are linked to Boston in the
>   same degree that a person, horribly abused as y a child, then removed
>   from the custody of the parents for the good of the child, legally
>   adopted by another set of parents, is related to the original birth parents
>   when the "child" makes good at the age of 55 or 60.
    
    So, genetically, scientifically, it can be proved that the Braves
    belong to Boston.  Everything else is highly subjective... ;-)
    
    
    glenn
    

    Well there's nothing that New England folks are not but stubborn.  So
    when all the Boston Braves fans that never went to Braves games so the
    team was not actually playing in braves field anymore where they never
    went to anyway, there was no reason not to continue rooting "in
    absentia" which was situation normal for them anyway.
    
    So the team they never saw in Boston nor Milwaukee moved to Atlanta -
    they still rooted if they rooted for any baseball team.  When they
    finally showed up on tbs these "fans" finally were seeing this team on
    tv after all these years minus two world series and two playoff games.
    
    George is not the only one, I guarantee you that but I have strong
    doubts about Philadelphia As fans and St Louis Browns fans existence.
    
    In fact I fear an epidemic of lifelong "Braves fans" coming out of the
    greater Boston woodwork.

    As for feeling sorry for players that have to deal with Ted Turner,
    don't. You might not like the man, but the players do. He is one of the
    most generous owners (he can afford to be) when it comes to players
    salaries. He is also possibly the most hands off owner of a sports 
    franchise in the US. Schuerholz, Aaron, etc. run the Braves. Ted is
    basically a rich fan. If Steinbrenner, Schotz, etc. ran their clubs
    the way Turner does, they might have more success.
    
    Chris

    
>    As for feeling sorry for players that have to deal with Ted Turner,
>    don't. You might not like the man, but the players do. He is one of the
>    most generous owners (he can afford to be) when it comes to players
>    salaries. He is also possibly the most hands off owner of a sports 
>    franchise in the US.
    
    Ted really learned his lesson here and has completely changed his
    act.  He used to be one of the most obnoxious, meddlesome owners
    in sports.  Notorious for getting tanked up and going down into
    the dugout to harass the players.  Even making himself the manager
    that one time in a publicity stunt.
    
    I just don't understand what happened to Jane.  Most people didn't 
    like her politics, but that's no longer the issue.  At some point 
    she was labotomized and turned into a lovesick puppy dog.  All
    that hanging all over Ted during the game is nauseating.
    
    glenn
    

  Considering Ted's success with his hands on approach to winning the America's
Cup it may have made sense for him to try running the team. And you can't say
for sure he wouldn't have succeeded, he was forced out of the dougout by either
the Commissioner or NL President, I forget which, before we ever found out
how well he could have done.

  Say what you will, the guy's done rather well. He built a big enough fortune
starting back with his bill board company, then succeeded at defending the
America's Cup, he was the 1st guy in decades to create a major TV network that
could compete with the big three, he married a movie star and now he's won with
the Braves. I can think of guys who have done worse.

  George

>  Considering Ted's success with his hands on approach to winning the America's
>Cup it may have made sense for him to try running the team. And you can't say
>for sure he wouldn't have succeeded, he was forced out of the dougout by either
>the Commissioner or NL President, I forget which, before we ever found out
>how well he could have done.
 
 Ted meddled very directly with the Braves until 1986, and believe me, he was
 not very successful.  However, he yielded the reigns to Cox and Schuerholz
 (and Kasten, but he deserves no credit here) and the Braves organization has
 since turned around.

 The earlier comment was made somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and he does pay his 
 players fairly well, but he is not the kind of guy who just goes out and
 acquires the biggest name free agent he can (not at this point); rather, he
 has gone after lesser free agents (Bream, Belliard, Pendleton - at the time
 a BIG risk) generally, although they spent to acquire Maddux.  They have a
 big payroll because they have quality players (as opposed to what Boston has
 done in the last 10 years, prior to 1995).

Saturday's Game 6 came on the night that we'd had a party scheduled for some
time.  It was pretty neat, though, because we had the party going upstair on
the drill floor in the Armory, while the game was on downstairs in the enlisted
lounge.

My dad and my mom were our guests, and we'd been getting score updates all
night long.  Long about the 7th, my dad couldn't stand it any more and went
down to the lounge.  

When he didn't come back for a while my mom, naturally, became concerned, kind
of along the lines of "go down there and make sure your father's not drinking
the bar dry."  My dad was never a heavy drinker, and rarely drinks these days
at all, so my brother and I get quite a kick out of mom's worrying...

Well, I headed down there, and it was a bunch of old guys, sitting on bar
stools, watching the TV with an intensity that I don't usually see from old
guys.  I mean, most old guys I see are pretty unflappable.  These guys were
INTENSE.  Turns out that most of them had actually seen the Braves play at
Braves Field at some point or other...   I watched the end of the game with
them.  Man, what a moment.

Needless to say, they were all pretty happy campers, and for a few moments I
felt like a kid again, when I'd used to sneak partway down the stairs at night
to listen to the big folks talk...clearly not a part of what was going on, but
experiencing that little thrill of being in the edge of it....

Dad got a nice victory drink when we got back upstairs, and Mom didn't complain
about that at all.....

'Saw

  In just a few days the Braves will start a World Series defense for the 3rd
time in their history and the 1st time in Atlanta. 

  The team will be going with pretty much the same squad that we saw in the
World Series with the exception that 3B Chipper Jones may be sidelined for a
few days due to having his knee scoped. He says he's ready to play but Bobby
Cox is saying they will be cautious. This is the other knee, not the one that
side lined him for the entire 1994 season.

  Mike Mordecai and rookie Tony Graffanino are candidates to play third while
Jones is out. 

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

    George, 
    
    Have you checked out the www.fastball.com page yet?
    
    UMDan

  I got an error accessing it yesterday. I'll try again today. I've had
good luck with the U.S.A. Today Braves Web Page. They are reporting that
there is still a question on Chipper Jones and that the last roster spot
will go to either RHP Mike Bielecki or RHP Joe Borowski.

  George

    Chipper's not going to start, and they won't pick a pitcher until the
    last minute.
    
    They're calling for temps in the mid 60's, clear, no rain.  Perfect day
    to hand out WS rings, raise a banner and watch a game!
    
    UMDan

    Aren't the Redsox in Atlanta tomorrow for a game, George, just like
    the old Boston Redsox-Boston Braves pre-season games which they'd have
    in Boston.  In those days the season didn't start until about the 15th
    (perhaps to take the sting out of filing date).
    
    Belinda says he hates Florida and wants to travel with the team to
    Texas, Mitchell on the other hand would just as soon hang around down
    there and work in his new bats.

  There does seem to be a new tradition brewing where the Red Sox stop off in
Atlanta to play the Braves just before the season starts. Of course it could
look more like Pawtucket v. Richmond than Boston v. Atlanta. 

  George

  Minor league information is beginning to trickle in. It appears that Braves
super prospect 18 year old Andruw Jones is already playing for the Braves top A
team the Durham Bulls and the good news for Braves fans is that it also appears
that he's figured out A ball pitchers. Here are his stats so far.

                                      AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
    Jones, Andruw, OF            ... .345  29   8  10  1  0  2   5   8   9   1

  If he keeps this up he may get promoted to AA Greenville but then again maybe
not. The Braves don't like to rush prospects along but seem to like to advance
them one year at a time. At least that's what they did with Chipper Jones and
Javy Lopez. 

  My guess is that around the turn of the century the Braves will have Jones
and Jones batting in the number 3 and number 4 spots. 

  George

    
    9 strikeouts in 29 AB?
    
    George, you realize this means he's hitting .500 when he puts the ball
    in play, don't you?
    
    As much as I like Jones, that number worries me a bit.  Not as much as
    the other numbers excite me, but still...
    
    Joe

Joe,

He's all of 18/19 years old, playing in single A.  There's time for the plate
discipline to develop...

-R

  But notice he's also had 8 walks during that same amount of time. Yes his
strike outs are high but his BB:SO ratio looks good for someone his age.

  It appears he's only had one or two at bats where he was put out by someone
other than the catcher. His on base percentage is something else. 

  Of course the sample size is small, it will be fun to see what he does as
he comes along.

  George

    
    Don't misunderstand - I'm not knocking him.  I think he's the best
    prospect in baseball right now, and awfully close to ready for the
    majors.
    
    The 9 K's are just the one (potentially) worrisome note on an otherwise
    incredible line - that's all.
    
    Joe

  I hear yeh. I think however we'll have to wait a while to see him play big
league ball. The Braves seem to like to have guys advance one level per year.

  If they keep to that it would be

    AA Greenville in 1997
    AAA Richmond in 1998
    Atlanta in 1999

  Still he'd be 21 years old.

  George

    How do you guys get stats for A players?  I'm curious because my wife's
    cousin was drafted by the Angels last year and I'd like to keep an eye
    on him.  Thanks, Steve.

    BB weekly or Baseball America if you want to buy a magazine. Baseball
    America covers the minors in more depth.
    
    Mike

>    How do you guys get stats for A players?

First, lay the entrails of a goat on your keyboard... :-)

RE                     <<< Note 247.210 by PCBUOA::MORGAN >>>

>    How do you guys get stats for A players?  

  More minor league info at:

    http://web.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sbm.htm

  Or start at the top of the usatoday baseball home page at:

    http://web.usatoday.com/sbfront.htm

  George

  In spite of yesterday's extra inning loss, Boston's old team is move along
at a good clip. With Jeff Blauser on the DL a couple of new guys from AAA
Richmond are getting a chance in the big leagues, infielders Ed Giovanola
and Tony Graffanino were recalled last week.

  Mark Lemke has also been bothered by a hamstring but he's continued to play.

  Ed Perez has replaced Charlie O'Brien as back up catcher and Jason Schmidt
is the new 5th starter but other than that they are pretty much the same team
they were last year.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

    
    
    
        You forgot to mention that Ryan Klesko is playing like Babe Ruth!
    
    
    Chap

  Hey, don't blame me, I was only 4 years old.

  Still, the Atlanta Braves consider their years in Boston and Milwaukee to
be an important part of their history so I don't see any reason why Boston
fans can't think of the Braves as an important part of our history.

  George

    >> Still, the Atlanta Braves consider their years in Boston and 
    >> Milwaukee to be an important part of their history so I don't 
    >> see any reason why Boston fans can't think of the Braves as an 
    >> important part of our history.
     
       A city with 360+ years of history shouldn't and doesn't even
       consider the Red Sox an "important part of our history" much
       less a team that hasn't played here in 40 years. 

    
    George are you still trying to hook beantown into last years Atlanta Braves
    WS championship? Do you think the people in Milwaukee are still calling
    themselves  Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves fans? I dooonnnn't thinnnkkk 
    sssooo. 

    
    
       Betcha he can get alot Lamer!!!  ;-)

Re        <<< Note 247.218 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>       A city with 360+ years of history shouldn't and doesn't even
>       consider the Red Sox an "important part of our history" much
>       less a team that hasn't played here in 40 years. 

  You must not be from around here. People in Boston are very passionate about
the Red Sox and definitely consider them part of Boston history.

  But as far as the Braves go, if the Atlanta Braves still consider their years
in Milwaukee and Boston an important of their history why should people in
Boston not feel Braves are part of our history? 

  George

    
>  But as far as the Braves go, if the Atlanta Braves still consider their years
>in Milwaukee and Boston an important of their history why should people in
>Boston not feel Braves are part of our history? 
    
    Perhaps because they _weren't_ an important part of Boston's history
    even when they were in Boston?  Sure, they're a footnote, but who
    cares?
    
    Does St. Louis go around bragging about the Browns?  Or K.C. about
    the Athletics?
    
    Joe

    History is relative.  As soon as George gets around to writing his 
    tome (no I didn't misspell Jimmy, Groaner) on the history of the city 
    of Boston (God help us all), he can include the 1995 World Series 
    Championship as one of its shining moments, and declare victory.
    
    glenn
    

  Hey, what's wrong with the 1914 World Series. That was a championship the
team won while they were playing here in town.

  But you still haven't answered my question. If the Atlanta Braves still
consider their years in Boston and Milwaukee to be important, why shouldn't
people in Boston still consider the Braves to be important?

  George

    
>  Hey, what's wrong with the 1914 World Series. That was a championship the
>team won while they were playing here in town.

    Yeah, and the Rams won in 1945 in Cleveland, and the Browns in 1943?
    in St. Loius.
    
>  But you still haven't answered my question. If the Atlanta Braves still
>consider their years in Boston and Milwaukee to be important, why shouldn't
>people in Boston still consider the Braves to be important?
    
    The Braves consider their years in Boston an Milwaukee to be important
    because it allows them to claim additional championships, etc.
    
    Boston has no such reason to claim the Braves; they've had plenty
    of success over the years, and the Braves were an extremely small
    part of that success.
    
    Few people cared about the Braves when they were in Boston; moving
    away no doubt lowered that number even further.  The Braves didn't
    have a particularly historic stay in Boston.  It would be more
    surprising if Boston pointed to the Braves as a key piece of their
    history than it is that they don't.
    
    Joe

  The Braves had a very successful stay in Boston. They practically owned the
National League in the 19th Century. George and Harry Wright who ran the team
from the start probably had about as much impact on professional baseball as
anyone else who has ever been involved with the game. They were instrumental
in starting professional baseball in the 1st place and played a major part
in restructuring the National League in 1876 when it was falling apart.

  They are a major part of baseball history and baseball is a major part of
Boston history. I don't see how their team could fail to be seen as significant.

  But as for the Atlanta Braves, no it's not just the championships, they
regard players on those teams to be a part of their history.

  George

    
    This makes about as much sense as all the Indian tribes in America
    claiming the Indian's and the Braves as their teams. Or all if the 
    catholic priests claimed the SD Padre's or the Mudhen's in Toledo!!

  No, big difference. It's more than just the name, the Braves still consider
the actual players who played in Boston and Milwaukee to be part of their
history. 

  For example, what would happen if some young kid came up from Richmond and
asked to wear number 21? What do you suppose they would tell him and why?

  George

    >> For example, what would happen if some young kid came up from 
    >> Richmond and asked to wear number 21? What do you suppose they 
    >> would tell him and why?
    
       I have no idea. I've lived in Massachusetts my whole life and in 
       Boston and Worcester for extended periods. Maybe the Clinton public
       schools failed me by teaching me about the Tea Party and the Boston
       Massacre and Bunker Hill and Old Ironsides and never once mentioning 
       number 21 for the Boston (I'm guessing) Braves.

  No doubt some obscure player from the past who had no impact on the game,
right?

  We sure knew about him out in Western Massachusetts. Don't they give kids
no learn'en in Boston?

  George

>    That should say "You must not be from around here.  People in Boston
>    are very passionate about the Red Sox *WHEN THEY ARE WINNING* and 
>    definitely consider them part of Boston history."
>    
>    See RED_SOX notesfile for details...  sox tickets being sold at an
>    alarming rate.
    
    See Cleveland attendance, 1960-92 for details.  Tribe tickets not
    being sold at an alarming rate, because no one bought them in the
    first place...
    
    glenn
    

    The Braves consider the "other" cities only when mentioning players
    from other eras.  No one down here considers them the
    Boston/Mil/Atlanta Braves any more than the Redskins are considered the
    Boston(?)/Washington Redskins.  If you are going to consider all of the
    other cities that a team was a part of, be consistent and do it for all
    sports/teams/cities.  
    
    UMDan

    
    
    
      This is the Braves note Paul take it elsewhere. :*)

    
    
         Ah George. Western Mass all my life never heard of #21?
    
    
    Chap

I think one reason why Boston doesn't claim the Braves is that when they were
in Boston, from everything I've heard, there was not a big line of demarcation
between Braves and Red Sox fans.

My dad would root for both -- partly because the Braves had a farm team down
here in Hartford -- but also because when he was in town he'd go to whichever
team was home.

In other cities, say Chicago, you're either a White Sox fan or a Cubs fan.

When the Braves left the folks just started going to Fenway.


JMHO,
'saw

    
>         Ah George. Western Mass all my life never heard of #21?
    
    I wear #21.  Roberto Clemente (and Roger Clemens) once passed 
    through Western Mass, I've heard...
    
    glenn
     

  If someone comes up to the Atlanta Braves and wants the number 21 they won't
let him have it because that number is retired. It belonged to someone who
never played for the Atlanta Braves.

  Hint. He fed up two rather significant pitches to Willie Mays that went for
home runs. First back in 1951 when Mays 1st came up he was hitless in his first
15 or so at bats but he finally got his 1st hit, a home run off #21 for the
Boston Braves. 

  Then as the story goes near the end of his career, #21 of the Milwaukee
Braves got hooked up in a pitchers duel with Juan Marichal that went extra
innings. Again he fed up a pitch that Willie Mays hit for a home run and the
Giants beat Milwaukee 1-0. 

  Despite those two flaws, he had one of the most remarkable careers in
baseball history playing for the Boston and Milwaukee Braves but for some
reason another team, the Atlanta Braves seemed to have retired his number even
though he never played for a major league team in Atlanta.

  George

Well, I've got a woodie now.

|>         Ah George. Western Mass all my life never heard of #21?
|    
|    I wear #21.  Roberto Clemente (and Roger Clemens) once passed 
|    through Western Mass, I've heard...
    

Glenn, isn't that just a bit pretentious?  8^)


Seriously, I used to wear #3.  They wouldn't give me #13, and #9 was taken.


btw, how's the arm?

     

    
    
        Sorry, Glen I knew you wear #21. Christ I got your baseball card
    right in my desk. Man my memory has gone since I reached 30....
    
    
    Chap

    
    George,
    
    While I was pointing at a specific measure (pennants) by which it's
    better for the Braves to point to all of their history, it's equally
    valuable for the Braves to point to other aspects of their history -
    players, records, etc.  Not to do so would be rather foolish of them,
    though other teams do split between overall records and records in
    current location.
    
    But asking why Boston doesn't consider the Braves of historical
    importance still strikes me as an inane question.  Sure, they're
    a piece of Boston's history - the Browns are part of St. Loius'
    history - heck, the Pilots are part of Seattle's history.  But they
    aren't a part of Boston currently (the Red Sox not only are still
    in Boston, but have been in Boston longer overall than the Braves
    were), which is of foremost importance when discussing items of
    such historical unimportance as sports franchises.  And they weren't
    particularly notable for their accomplishments while they were
    here (Harry and George Wright _aren't_ famous for their association
    with the Braves/Red Caps - they're famous for their association
    with the Red Stockings - heck, Harry played a grand total of two
    games for the Red Caps, and while the team did well the first few
    years he managed, they fell apart shortly thereafter).
    
    I'd bet there are 100 times as many people who root against the
    Braves because of Jane Fonda than there are people who root for
    them because they once played in Boston.
    
    Joe

    
> Glenn, isn't that just a bit pretentious?  8^)
    
    I never claimed to be a Warren Spahn (that'd be a good fit for 
    Breen, though).
    
> Seriously, I used to wear #3.  They wouldn't give me #13, and #9 was taken.
    
    Wouldn't give you #13?  Who'd you play for, the Hartford Catholics? ;-)
    Mazeroski's #9 usually is one of the first taken...
    
> btw, how's the arm?
    
    In great shape, finally.  As with most of the other previously unused
    muscles.  But I'm going to be moving over to 2B when our #1 pitcher
    isn't hurling, because he's got the kind of arm where a little snap,
    and bam, the ball's to first.  I don't, not in that class.  So it
    should be the best of both worlds, because the 2B has much more fun
    on the double play.  One thing I can guarantee is that I'll be 
    getting dirty...
    
    glenn
    
                                                       

|> Glenn, isn't that just a bit pretentious?  8^)
|    
|    I never claimed to be a Warren Spahn (that'd be a good fit for 
|    Breen, though).

8^)

    
|> Seriously, I used to wear #3.  They wouldn't give me #13, and #9 was taken.
|    
|    Wouldn't give you #13?  Who'd you play for, the Hartford Catholics? ;-)
|    Mazeroski's #9 usually is one of the first taken...

No, it was a fire department team -- superstitiuos bunch.  When we were given
ID numbers they were in the 500 range, but they would not issue 513.  Go
figure.

    
>    In great shape, finally.  As with most of the other previously unused
>    muscles.  But I'm going to be moving over to 2B when our #1 pitcher
>    isn't hurling, because he's got the kind of arm where a little snap,
>    and bam, the ball's to first.  I don't, not in that class.  So it
>    should be the best of both worlds, because the 2B has much more fun
>    on the double play.  One thing I can guarantee is that I'll be 
>    getting dirty...
    
Watch out for flying spikes. ....    
                                                       

RE       <<< Note 247.244 by ROCK::HUBER "From Seneca to Cuyahoga Falls" >>>

>(Harry and George Wright _aren't_ famous for their association
>    with the Braves/Red Caps - they're famous for their association
>    with the Red Stockings - heck, Harry played a grand total of two
>    games for the Red Caps, and while the team did well the first few
>    years he managed, they fell apart shortly thereafter).

  Same team. Harry and George Wright started Boston's 1st National League
franchise and used both names, Red Caps and Red Stockings. Later they became
the Beaneaters, then the Braves, B's, and Braves again. Same team. I believe
the reason Harry retired as a player after 2 games was because he was injured
right around the time the team started playing. 

>    I'd bet there are 100 times as many people who root against the
>    Braves because of Jane Fonda than there are people who root for
>    them because they once played in Boston.

  That's a bet I'd take. While there are many radio call in type red necks out
in the Massachusetts burbs and in some of Boston's neighborhoods such as the
South End there are probably as many anti-war type liberals in town that would
be Braves fans because of Jane Fonda. Once they cancel out, the Braves fans
remain. In fact just this weekend I bumped into an old guy with white hair
wearing a Braves jacket who claimed to have been a Braves fan since way back
when.

  George

                                              
> Watch out for flying spikes. ....    
    
    Yeah, I know.  In this league you can still wear metal, and may
    be one of the few holdouts this side of pro ball.  Wish I still 
    had a pair, but they gave out some time back.
    
    glenn
    

  >> That's a bet I'd take. While there are many radio call in type 
  >> red necks out in the Massachusetts burbs and in some of Boston's 
  >> neighborhoods such as the South End there are probably as many 

     As a former South End resident I can tell you that you really don't
     know Boston very well if you expect to find many red necks there. 
     It's about as diverse a community as you're likely to find in the
     entire city. It's heavily Hispanic and black on the lower Roxbury
     side and yuppieville on the Back Bay side and with the largest
     gay population in the city. You also don't know Boston very well
     if you think that anyone under fifty years old really cares about
     the Braves anymore than any other successful pro franchise. Sadly
     enough the Yankees have a bigger following around here. 
    

    Tell you what, George, I'll read all of the Braves reports in the local
    fish wrapper for the next several weeks (I usually read them anyway). 
    If the words "Milwaukee" or "Boston" appear I will post them here, in
    total, in context.  
    
    Did Bostonians celebrate the Redskins's Super Bowl victories?
    
    UMDan  

    
    >Did Bostonians celebrate the Redskins's Super Bowl victories?
    
    Being a Raider fan and one who hates the Donks, yes I did celebrate one
    of Washington's super bowls 8^)
    
    Marc
    

RE        <<< Note 247.249 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove" >>>

>     You also don't know Boston very well
>     if you think that anyone under fifty years old really cares about
>     the Braves anymore than any other successful pro franchise. Sadly
>     enough the Yankees have a bigger following around here. 
    
  Well you are wrong there. I'm under 50, I live in Boston, and I care about
the Braves. And since they've retired the number of a guy who never played
in Atlanta it appears that they feel the connection to Boston and Milwaukee
as well.

  George

RE     <<< Note 247.250 by ODIXIE::ZOGRAN "Atlanta, Home of the WS Champs" >>>

>    Tell you what, George, I'll read all of the Braves reports in the local
>    fish wrapper for the next several weeks (I usually read them anyway). 
>    If the words "Milwaukee" or "Boston" appear I will post them here, in
>    total, in context.  

  You still haven't told me why Atlanta retired Spahn's number if they
don't feel he played on their team. Every time a kid comes up from Richmond
and asks for number 21 he's told no, he can't have that number on today's
Atlanta Braves because of someone who played in Boston and Milwaukee.
    
>    Did Bostonians celebrate the Redskins's Super Bowl victories?
    
  As a matter of fact yes. When I was living out in Framingham there was
a huge Redskin contingent. Every time our apartment building had a superbowl
party when the Redskins were playing there were guys there with Redskin
shirts and hats cheering for the team.

  George

> You still haven't told me why Atlanta retired Spahn's number if they
> don't feel he played on their team.
    
    You're absolutely certain that Spahn's number wasn't retired in
    Milwaukee?
    
    For what team did Spahn last throw a pitch?
    
    
    
    glenn
    

    Well George's right the original, never-changed-allegiance Braves fans
    do exist, I know several and yes they all surely are over 50 and of
    no-account, obviously.  Tommy's also right the actual support of these
    rabid braves fans was never thru the turnstiles as witness the 272,000
    final 1952 attendance figure.
    
    I do think to link into this Boston Braves chain you should either be
    an original or be linked by blood to one of these originals.  Or simply
    be a Braves fan and call it an added incentive that they once played in
    Boston.

RE      <<< Note 247.254 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    You're absolutely certain that Spahn's number wasn't retired in
>    Milwaukee?
>    For what team did Spahn last throw a pitch?
    
  The Giants.

  In spring of 1964, Warren Spahn was sold outright by the Milwaukee Braves
to the Mets. He was later released by the Mets and played for the Giants before
retiring.

  About a month after Milwaukee sold Spahn to the Mets they asked permission
to move to Atlanta a year early but were turned down by the owners. They
played their final year in Milwaukee without Spahn then in 1965 moved to
Atlanta.

  George

    My tenure in the Braves front office was not long enough to provide
    input into the retirement of numbers:-).  I do not know why they
    retired Spahn's, and I doubt that any minor leaguers have entered
    therapy due to the fact that they didn't get to wear #21.

    In the future, shall we call the 'Skins the Boston/Washington Redskins?

    On another note, although I do not agree with Ted's political leanings,
    as an owner he's someone who I actually respect.  During the Braves 15
    inning game on Sunday he and Jane were there and they sat through the whole
    thing.  They even led the crowd in a stirring rendition of "Take me out to
    the ballgame" during the 13th inning stretch.  Any owner who stick it
    out that long ain't all bad.  BTW, the owners "box" is not a luxury
    suite, it's on the field next to the Braves dugout.

    UMDan
    

    
    George 
    
    	Did you learn to beat dead horses while living in western mass?

>>(Harry and George Wright _aren't_ famous for their association
>>    with the Braves/Red Caps - they're famous for their association
>>    with the Red Stockings - heck, Harry played a grand total of two
>>    games for the Red Caps, and while the team did well the first few
>>    years he managed, they fell apart shortly thereafter).

>  Same team. Harry and George Wright started Boston's 1st National League
>franchise and used both names, Red Caps and Red Stockings. Later they became
>the Beaneaters, then the Braves, B's, and Braves again. Same team. I believe
>the reason Harry retired as a player after 2 games was because he was injured
>right around the time the team started playing. 
    
    Sorry, I was unclear.
    
    Harry and George Wright are most famous, IMHO, for their association
    with the _Cincinnati_ Red Stockings.
    
    They both went on to play with the National Association _Boston_
    Red Stockings, and then the National League Boston Red Caps.
    (BTW, Harry's two games for the Red Caps were in different seasons.)
    
    The history of the Braves...
    
    braves               nl      boston red caps, 1876-1882
                                 boston beaneaters, 1883-1906
                                 boston doves, 1907-1910
                                 boston rustlers, 1911
                                 boston braves, 1912-1935
                                 boston bees, 1936-1940
                                 boston braves, 1941-1952
                                 milwaukee braves, 1953-1965
                                 atlanta braves, 1966-1993
    
>>    I'd bet there are 100 times as many people who root against the
>>    Braves because of Jane Fonda than there are people who root for
>>    them because they once played in Boston.

>  That's a bet I'd take. While there are many radio call in type red necks out
>in the Massachusetts burbs and in some of Boston's neighborhoods such as the
>South End there are probably as many anti-war type liberals in town that would
>be Braves fans because of Jane Fonda. Once they cancel out, the Braves fans
>remain.
    
    Why do they cancel?  I was only referring to the number who root
    against the Braves because of Fonda - not in any way to those who
    root for them because of her...
    
    Joe

    
    
    
          I'm from Western Mass And I've never seen a dead horse. George
    are you now from Boston or Western Mass??
    
    
    Chap

    
    
    And why do all the youngsters ask for #21?

RE           <<< Note 247.255 by AKOCOA::BREEN "You never can tell" >>>

>    I do think to link into this Boston Braves chain you should either be
>    an original or be linked by blood to one of these originals.  Or simply
>    be a Braves fan and call it an added incentive that they once played in
>    Boston.

  Ok how about this. My older brother was a Milwaukee Braves fan back in the
50's. We came from a rural neighborhood in a small town in Western Mass and
most of the other kids were older than he was. They were all Red Sox fans but
half were also Giants fans and half were also Braves fans. That's just the way
it was with our neighborhood, you had one AL team and one NL team. 

  Well my brother and I went over to the neighbors every Sunday to play
baseball. There were two brothers there and two more brothers came from up the
street. Sometimes there were others but that was our basic core. We'd divide up
into two teams of 3 (one brother each) and their father would pitch for both
sides. For the most part the guys my brother played with were Braves fans
because of the Boston Braves and Warren Spahn and the guys I played with were
Giants because they liked to go down to Pynchen Park and watch the AA
Springfield Giants and we were fans of Willie Mays. 

  But despite the hard fought battles in that cow pasture between the Hatfield
Giants and the Hatfield Braves, we were all behind either one of those teams
when ever they got into the World Series because as much as we loved our Red
Sox and bickered about the Giants and Braves to a man we all hated the Yankees.

  So when I moved to Boston it brought back all those memories of being Giants
and Braves fans as a kid. It brought back all those memories about how "down
town" they were basketball fans but out in the real country we followed the
true sport which was Baseball and we knew there was a National League and we
knew the teams that had played around us before moving west where as the down
town kids knew only of the American League and the Red Sox. 

  Of course we followed the Sox but we were fans of Spahn and Sain, of Mays and
Marichel and having National League teams to cheer for set us apart from the
rabble down town. It made our rural fields and woods baseball country, true
baseball country like they never knew down in the burbs where we all went to
school. 

  We loved our Sox, we loved our Giants, we loved our Braves and anyone else
who could beat the Yankees and we always will, no matter how old we get no
matter where we go. It was the National league that set us apart from down
town and those Sunday afternoons were some of the best days of my life. That's
what I think of when I think of the Giants and that's what I think of when I
think of the Braves. Coming to Boston and seeing "Braves field" was like making
a pilgrimage to Mecca. Even if it's in ruins it's a link to my past and it's
something that will always mean Sunday afternoons as a kid playing ball with
the guys next door.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

    
    
        Thats OK Fenway is in Ruins too.

RE       <<< Note 247.260 by ROCK::HUBER "From Seneca to Cuyahoga Falls" >>>

>    Harry and George Wright are most famous, IMHO, for their association
>    with the _Cincinnati_ Red Stockings.

  Sure, they were part of the 1st professional team when they lived in
Cincinatti. But then they moved to Boston and were instrumental in helping
professional baseball and the National League get started in 1871. I believe
those were also Red Stockings years when they played in Boston with Al
Spalding. 

  Then they were a major part of the reorganization of the National League in
1876 after it almost fell apart. Spalding went on to Chicago to play and to
form a sports equipment company with his brother but the Wright brothers stayed
in Boston and ran the Red Caps. They had their share of success then after
a few down years the team came back as the Beaneaters to win 5 more N.L.
Pennants in the 1890's.
    
>    Why do they cancel?  I was only referring to the number who root
>    against the Braves because of Fonda - not in any way to those who
>    root for them because of her...
    
  Well as far as I'm concerned they don't even count much less cancel. The old
Braves fans are fans because they love baseball. If someone wants to hate a
baseball team for political reasons then who gives a rip? 

  George

  You guys never heard of Warren Spahn?

  You never heard guys talking about the days of "Spahn and Saine and a
  day of rain"?

  Must have been a College basketball game on that day.

  George

    Spahn and Sain and pray for rain

  I've heard that both ways, "pray for rain" and "a day of rain".

  George

    
    	The Atlanta Braves link to Boston, is exactly the same as
    the Baltimore Ravens link to the Cleveland Browns. Will a
    Baltimore Raven ever where Jim Browns uniform #? Paul are you now
    a Baltimore Raven fan?, or are you waited for the Expansion Cleveland
    Browns to start playing in X amount of years?
    
    Ron

    
    George,
    
    The National League started in 1876; the National Association
    in 1871.  The former is _not_, as a rule, considered a "major
    league"; stats from that league are not held in the same regard
    as the American Association or even the Players League.
    
    And I'll say this - when I hear the names Harry and George Wright,
    it certainly isn't Boston I think of - it's Cincinnati, and the
    great Red Stocking team on 1869.  It's similar to pointing to Ruth
    as a member of the Braves - sure he played for them, but his fame
    is as a Red Sock and (particularly) Yankee.
    
    w.r.t. The Modells...
    
    I won't speak for Paul, but...
    
    1) IMHO, the Browns tradition did not leave town with the team.
       I certainly hope the expansion team to be respects the retired
       numbers of days past; I expect they will.
    
    2) I will root fervently against the Modells against anyone.
    
    Joe
       

RE       <<< Note 247.274 by ROCK::HUBER "From Seneca to Cuyahoga Falls" >>>

>    The National League started in 1876; the National Association
>    in 1871.  The former is _not_, as a rule, considered a "major
>    league"; stats from that league are not held in the same regard
>    as the American Association or even the Players League.

  No, I don't think that's quite right. I believe the "National Association of
Professional Players" or some such thing started in 1871. The "National
Association" was an amateur league that started much earlier with teams like
the New York Knickerbockers. 

  At 1st the pros were quite successful and when they bought all the best
players from the National Association, the amateur league folded up. But then
by about 1875 the pro league fell into chaos and they decided to reorganize and
start it up again as the National League. 
    
>    And I'll say this - when I hear the names Harry and George Wright,
>    it certainly isn't Boston I think of - it's Cincinnati, and the
>    great Red Stocking team on 1869.  It's similar to pointing to Ruth
>    as a member of the Braves - sure he played for them, but his fame
>    is as a Red Sock and (particularly) Yankee.

  Except that Ruth was in his last year and did practically nothing as a
Brave. By contrast the Wrights helped to start a league back in 1876 that 
is probably the oldest and most successful professional league in existence.

  As for that 1869 undefeated Red Stocking team, contrary to other claims it
left town after a year or so and has little relationship to the 1871 Cincinnati
Red Stocking team that started there the under new management. 

  It would probably be more accurate to say that today's Braves are the oldest
professional team in baseball. They are the team that Harry Write started back
in Cincinnati 1869, moved to Boston in 1871 to play in the National Association
of Professional Players. It was the same bunch of guys who formed the Red Caps
in 1876 and played in the 1st national league game in Philadelphia that
spring. It was then that same team that played in Boston for 76 years then
moved to Milwaukee and Atlanta as the Braves. 

  That Reds team in Cincinnati today was just part of the effort to form the
National Association of Professional Players back in 1871 and compared to the
Braves they are little more than yet another expansion team. :*)} 

  George

    
    
    Bill you beat me to it.

  Of course today it would be Spahn, Saine, and 3 days of rain.

  George

    After seeing Johnny Sain's named spelled correctly twice why do you
    insist on the E at the end.  Or shouldn't I ask - I'm a leftie so
    quirks are something I have a lot of patience with.
    
    The post war braves induced a ton of passion in Boston but somehow it
    was never truly reflected in the box office.  Probably the small field
    and no parking had something to do with it.  Attendance, after a surge
    in the post-war started dropping in the 50s and I don't think even the
    Redsox got back to 1 million until around 1958.
    
    Perini should have got a leg up and built a two sport stadium out in
    the burbs like in Norwood.  But Boston and vicinity is a sports "talk"
    town not a sports "see" town.  And it's gotten worse and we're now one
    of the lowest rated sports areas in the country albeit with the best
    coverage.  Except hockey and to some extent baseball where by stopping
    the slide last year Duquette saved the demand for the scarce seating.

	I think it's just a quirk, billte.  Kinda like Tommy and
	his insistance on dropping the h in Pittsburgh.

	Who says these two don't have a good deal in common?!



	billl

  You know they are running out of ideas when they start picking on spelling.
Paul I can understand, he's a Rotisserie stat man and spelling errors bring
back memories of rerunning weeks of stats.

  As for Boston, attendance has been outstanding lately at Fenway Park. The
reason the Braves left was that people were going to Fenway to see Ted Williams
and other AL stars of the time, not because Boston is a "talk" only town.

RE National Association

  I looked it up, the original name for the National League when it was 1st
formed in 1871 was the "National Association of Professional Baseball Players".
The "National Association" was the amateur league that was started earlier
and ended around that time.

  After the Cincinnati Reds of 1869 folded the people trying to start the
Boston franchise in the new pro league hired Harry Wright to come run their
team. He did and with his brother George went on to run the team through
the years of the pro association and into the start of the National League
years. 

  In the winter of 1875-1876 the pro league reorganized as the National League.

  George

    
>RE National Association
>
>  I looked it up, the original name for the National League when it was 1st
>formed in 1871 was the "National Association of Professional Baseball Players".
>The "National Association" was the amateur league that was started earlier
>and ended around that time.

    George,
    
    The name by which the NAoPBP is commonly known, though, is the
    National Association.  Check out the Baseball Encyclopedia; the
    NAoPBP is commonly referred to as the National Association.  When
    I refer to the National Association, I'm likewise making reference
    to the NAoPBP.  Sorry for any confusion this caused.
    
>  After the Cincinnati Reds of 1869 folded the people trying to start the
>Boston franchise in the new pro league hired Harry Wright to come run their
>team. He did and with his brother George went on to run the team through
>the years of the pro association and into the start of the National League
>years. 

>  In the winter of 1875-1876 the pro league reorganized as the National League.
    
    I'm not arguing any of that; my arguments are:
    
    1) Harry and George Wright are best known for their association
       with the Cincinnati Reds, not for their association with the
       NA Red Stockings or NL Red Caps.
    
    BTW - for anyone interested in the beginnings of pro baseball,
    "If I Never Get Back" by (I believe) Darryl Brock is a quite
    enjoyable read; it's historical fiction, though, which might bother
    some purists.
    
    2) The National Assocation (by which, again, I mean NAoPBP) is not
       recognized as a major league.  The Braves may trace their roots
       to the NA Red Stockings, but IMHO the more appropriate point for
       any team to trace to is 1876 (NL) or 1901 (AL).
    
    Joe

RE       <<< Note 247.281 by ROCK::HUBER "From Seneca to Cuyahoga Falls" >>>

>    2) The National Assocation (by which, again, I mean NAoPBP) is not
>       recognized as a major league.  The Braves may trace their roots
>       to the NA Red Stockings, but IMHO the more appropriate point for
>       any team to trace to is 1876 (NL) or 1901 (AL).
    
  Joe, I think we are close but we are just arguing over semantics. It's not
that the NAoPBP was not a major league, it was. I believe the reason the
reorganization of 1876 is recognized as the beginning of the National League
for stat purposes was that the NAoPBP was so chaotic between 1871 and 1876 that
the stats would not be reliable. 

  As for the caliber of play, for all intents and purposes the players involved
after 1876 were the same guys that played in 1875 and in many cases there was
little change on the teams themselves. Many of the players might not even have
been aware of the importance of the reorganization.

  Regarding the name National Association, that's fine if your Encyclopedia
wants to call them that because they obviously decided not to get involved with
the amateur league but that league certainly was the major league of it's day.
Again, it was not the caliber of players that was different, all that changed
was that in January of 1871 the NAoPBP changed one rule to allow players to be
paid. The rest of the rules they lifted directly from the amateur National
Association. 

  As for the Wrights, remember them as you will but if you look at the bigger
picture what they contributed in general was the switch from amateur to
professional baseball for the top players in the game. They started with one
team in Cincinnati that played a ton of amateur teams, then they went on to
Boston where they had a major part in helping get the 1st pro league started
and they were still major figures helping to turn the 1875 failure into the
1876 success that became the National League. To me it seems like one big
effort of which they were a major part. 

  George 

>  Joe, I think we are close but we are just arguing over semantics.

How are you dealing with this, George?  It's new ground for you...

RE  <<< Note 247.283 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's Baseball And You're An American" >>>

>How are you dealing with this, George?  It's new ground for you...

  First, what does this question have to do with sports?

  Second, what are you talking about?

  George

    I only mentioned the Sain vs Saine since I had replied with the correct
    one.  If you were going to misspell I'd have thought Spahn would have
    been the tough one.
    
    On the Boston Braves attendance.  My point and I'm basically supporting
    your argument that there truly are many former Boston Braves fans who
    have continued to follow the team.  The problem is where were they when
    the Braves needed them.  And the answer I suggest is that while there
    were this fanatical bunch of Braves fans who still can't understand why
    the Pole never canonized Tommy Holmes the Sunday fans all went to
    Fenway.
    
    And as modern entertainment dictum states: It's the casual fans that
    make or break you.

  Not only was attendance low, but it was low after they had just gone to the
World Series.

  No doubt attendance was what got them looking around but another factor was
that Milwaukee, where the Braves had a minor league team, had just built a new
stadium and Bill Veck Jr. was chomping at the bit to move the St. Louis Browns
back to Milwaukee into that stadium. The Braves used their minor league team to
block the Browns move but then they had to "use it or lose it" so they chose to
head out west without waiting around to see if the Boston crowds would return.

  Had Milwaukee not just built that stadium or if the Browns had beat them to
it, the move probably would have been delayed and Hank Aaron would have become
a major Boston sports hero. Those two World Series with the Yankees in '56 and
'57 would have made Boston fans forget about the Sox and Braves field would
have been packed.

  But it wasn't to be. Now only the Right Field Pavilion and ticket office
remain and B.U. dormitories occupy the spot where the Grandstands once stood at
Braves field. Their ticket office is now the B.U. Police station. But every
now and then I go sit in the Right Field Pavilion and think about what it
would have been like to see Hammer'en Hank, Eddie Mathews, Warren Spahn and
the rest play in Boston.

  Oh well, at least I got to see the Braves play in Fulton County Stadium.
Maybe once interleague play starts I'll get to see them when they return to
Fenway Park. 

  George

    Speaking of attendance, now that the Atlanta Braves have won it 
    all, Atlantans seemed bored by it all, staying away from games in 
    surprisingly high numbers.  The "New Atlanta", with its hoity-toity
    Olympic Games and big money (not to mention large population), may 
    just be one of the worst baseball cities ever, when you look at the 
    Braves' entire history there.
    
    The Bravos reportedly didn't even sell out Opening Day, or maybe only
    on gameday at best...
    
    glenn
    

  Maybe it's a one year thing. The fans might be getting caught up in the
hoop-la surrounding the Olympics. 

  But as my brother said last fall, after winning one each World Series in
Boston, Milwaukee, and Atlanta maybe the next Braves team to win the World
Series will be the 2040 Space-Station Alpha Braves. 

  George

    
    	It could be that the fans don't want to deal with the traffic and
    other nuisances created by the construction going on for the Olympics.
    
    Ron

    >Speaking of attendance, now that the Atlanta Braves have won it 
    >all, Atlantans seemed bored by it all, staying away from games in 
    >surprisingly high numbers.  The "New Atlanta", with its hoity-toity
    >Olympic Games and big money (not to mention large population), may 
    >just be one of the worst baseball cities ever, when you look at the 
    >Braves' entire history there.
    
    >The Bravos reportedly didn't even sell out Opening Day, or maybe only
    >on gameday at best...
    
     ...and the horse you rode in on.  And describing the Olympics as
    hoity-toity (?) smacks of jealousy.  The worlds attention will be
    focused on Atlanta in July and August, and we are damned proud of it. 
    Boston gets mentioned internationally when a plane skids off a runway
    (maybe).

    The Braves attendance is down this year (you want me to argue against
    facts?), due in part to the Olympics competing for the sport dollar,
    the stadium is not readily accessible by mass transit
    and they have screwed up the parking with the Olympic construction.

    I was at opening day and froze my ass off.  It was not packed, but it
    was officially "sold out".

    UMDan  

>    The Braves attendance is down this year (you want me to argue against
>    facts?), due in part to the Olympics competing for the sport dollar,
>    the stadium is not readily accessible by mass transit
>    and they have screwed up the parking with the Olympic construction.
    
    Attendance was down last year too, and the year before that (before 
    the strike).
    
    Damned right I'm jealous.  In Boston we'd kill for a baseball team 
    like that, and the ballclub would upstage the Olympic publicity,
    I guarantee it.
    
    glenn
    

    
>    Yeah, and Red Sox attendance figures are soaring...
    
    Right there with Atlanta's, at ~30,000, despite the worst-to-first
    contrast, and Atlanta's "bad" weather...
    
    glenn
    

    But aren't the Braves really a Boston team, I mean, you know,...:-)
    
    (The equine carcass is now just dust, hooves and teeth!)
    
    UMDan

    
      If the Braves played in Boston they could sellout every game
     in a 55,000 seat stadium. No problem. It's just a great base-
     ball town. A lousy football town and an even worse basketball
     town but a great baseball town. Atlanta on the other hand is a 
     lousy baseball town. Need we drag out film of the stands in the 
     mid '80s to reinforce that point?
    
      As for the Olympics being in Atlanta? It's a shame. It's a shame 
     that the Olympic committe sold out for the big bucks instead of
     doing the right thing and staging the 100th year anniversary of
     the modern Olympiad in Athens like they should have.
    

    And in Athens you wouldn't have a hotel room, working telephones, state
    of the art venues, etc.

    As for the Olympic committee selling out, everything that the IOC
    Selection team seems associated with is a massive bribe receiving effort. 
    They get their asses kissed more than Madonna in the Bull's locker room.

    Atlanta was the first city to ever get the Olympics on their first try. 
    If the IOC was concerned about history they would have awarded it to
    Athens.  They weren't so they didn't.
    
    UMDan

RE<<< Note 247.294 by ROCK::GRONOWSKI "SPORTS 1995 NOTY & RED_SOX Most Knowledgeable Noter Award!" >>>

>    Boston had a team like the Braves, they didn't support them... they
>    left.  

  The 1952 Braves were nothing like today's Braves. If 1948 was "Spahn and Sain
and pray for rain", by 1952 it was "Spahn and Crandall can't find the handle".
Veteran Johnny Sain had gone in a trade to the Yankees for a rookie named Lew
Burdette and no one knew yet that he'd come back to be a Yankee killer half a
decade later. 

  They were a team with tons of potential and some amazing guys coming along
but who knew? The townies had Ted Williams playing on the other side of Kenmore
Square and they weren't about to spend time going to watch the Braves. 

  Bummer, if not for that minor league team that they used to get into that
new stadium in Milwaukee the 50's would have been something else in Boston.
Think about it, both Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron should have been Boston heros
but we let them both slip away.

  George

    
           I find these baseball history lessons to be the most
          fascinating reading there is other than the back of
          a bottle of floor cleaner.

  Hey, at least when I put on my cap and gown and they handed me my degree I
moved on and put my College years behind me.

  George

    
    	Groaner watch day 1, in regards to the question posed in .272
    
    Ron

    In 1952 the Braves didn't have Ted Williams to compete with, he was
    flying with the Marine Corps and John Glenn in Korea.  The Redsox had
    only Billy Goodman left from the good teams of 46-51 plus Parnell and
    Kinder.  They went to a youth movement and Dom DiMaggio said hello Tom
    Umphlett good bye Sox and wasn't heard from again until he helped Billy
    Sullivan buy the Patriots.
    
    I doubt the sox drew 700,000 that year.  Maybe they were saving their
    money to see Harry Agannis play football or go dancing at the Totem
    Pole.

  Well if the players weren't there because the war was on then it was hardly a
representative year. That wouldn't mean that Boston was not a baseball town. 

  George

    Not that many players missed because of the "police action".  Pulling
    Williams back into the Corps was probably partly political.  Hell it
    may have put some pressure on Truman to end the war earlier.  One other
    player involved was Johnny Antonelli who when he finally got out of the
    service found he'd been traded from the Braves to the Giants.
    
    

    
    Interesting piece of data...
    
    Remember "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain?"
    
    In 1948, when the Braves went to the World Series, Spahn and Sain had
    a combined winning percentage of .591.
    
    The "rain" had a winning percentage of .598.
    
    Interesting, no?
    
    Joe

  Could be that those were the two guys most people saw as capable of having
20 win seasons. It makes sense that to win the National League pennant you'd
need more than 2 pitchers, even with only 7 other teams in the league.

  George

    
    But George, for most teams who make the world series, their best
    two pitchers pitch _better_ than the rest of the team.
    
    It's just rather ironic that a team famous for having only two starters
    in fact had a better record with other pitchers.
    
    Joe

    Spahn's record of 15-12 was unusual for him.  The saying came in during
    the pennant rush when they got all the innings out of the two.  I
    suspect Spahn may have had a period of arm problems that year from
    which he rebounded.  He also was changing over from a power fastball
    pitcher to a complete pitcher.

  Remember, they didn't have the same type of statistical analysis back then
that we have today. Also the Braves had been so terrible for so long most
people probably didn't know the team very well. 

  They probably knew that Johnny Sain was the old veteran that had been with
the team for a while the press had time to tell them about the new kid, Warren
Spahn. They were the ones capable of racking up 20 win seasons. 

  Even in '86 a feeling developed among some that Boston only had 2 pitchers.
Remember "Clemens and Hurst then expect the worst"? Well as it was, Oil Can
Boyd and Al Nipper had a lot to do with why that team won the division and was
able to go on to the World Series. 

  George

    
> Remember, they didn't have the same type of statistical analysis back then
> that we have today. Also the Braves had been so terrible for so long most
> people probably didn't know the team very well. 
    
    What kind of statistical analysis do you need to know that a guy was
    15-12, or to calculate winning percentage?  My guess is that a hell
    of a lot more people knew what winning pct was (not to mention how to
    divide) than today...
    
> They probably knew that Johnny Sain was the old veteran that had been with
> the team for a while the press had time to tell them about the new kid, Warren
> Spahn. They were the ones capable of racking up 20 win seasons. 
    
    The "old veteran" was in his 3rd full season...
    
> Even in '86 a feeling developed among some that Boston only had 2 pitchers.
> Remember "Clemens and Hurst then expect the worst"? Well as it was, Oil Can
> Boyd and Al Nipper had a lot to do with why that team won the division and was
> able to go on to the World Series. 
    
    Boyd had a good season.  Nipper was sub-.500 for a very good-hitting
    team, and basically sipped, especially in the World Series.
    
    glenn
    

      <<< Note 247.311 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    What kind of statistical analysis do you need to know that a guy was
>    15-12, or to calculate winning percentage?  My guess is that a hell
>    of a lot more people knew what winning pct was (not to mention how to
>    divide) than today...

  Ok then if so many people knew about this winning percentage, why the
saying "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain"? Maybe they were not the analysts
you think them to be.

>    The "old veteran" was in his 3rd full season...

  To many people who had just become Braves fans after a decades long losing
spell that might as well have been an entire career. 

>    Boyd had a good season.  Nipper was sub-.500 for a very good-hitting
>    team, and basically sipped, especially in the World Series.

  We were not talking about the World Series, my point was that both guys
contributed to getting the team their division title and no matter how you
slice it "Clemens and Hurst then expect the worst" was not representative
of the '86 Red Sox.

>                 -< George Maiewski, Cult Boston Historian... >-

  Glenn Waugaman, declaring victory on a note that is weak at best.

  George

RE      <<< Note 247.313 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    Kind of like how the last few Braves' seasons have evolved into a 
>    lifetime for you... 

  No, I've been reading about the entire history of the team, not just the
last few seasons. I've put notes in here about how the team was started by
Harry Wright back in 1871, how they won NL Pennants in the 19th century, how
the 1914 Miracle Braves came from last to beat Connie Mack's A's in 1914
as well as modern times.
    
>what of the Braves' glorious history in Boston, 
>    given this gross ignorance on the part of their fans?

  What about the gross ignorance of fans who bought into "Clemens and Hurst
then expect then worst"? Just because part of the sports press plays up to
casual fans that doesn't mean there are not good fans as well.

>    	Spahn, InSane
>    	And inane George's reign

  Maybe you can tell me, exactly what is your problem? All I said was that I
liked the Braves in part because they once played in Boston and that brought on
a landslide of cynicism. 

  Cynicism is usually a way that people who can't deal with their feelings hide
their anger. Fine I have no problem with that but what I would like to know is
what is this anger really about? All I'm asking is why would anyone get so
upset just because I said I liked the Braves for an unorthodox reason? 

  Abuse is not going to make me go away. The more I get the more I feel
determined to know just what sacred cow I've accidentally turned into
hamburger. 

  George

           
> What about the gross ignorance of fans who bought into "Clemens and Hurst
> then expect then worst"? Just because part of the sports press plays up to
> casual fans that doesn't mean there are not good fans as well.
    
    That is not gross ignorance.  In fact, that is a nice, tidy assessment
    of the 1986 Red Sox' pitching staff, which was basically .500  
    when Clemens and Hurst didn't pick up a decision, in spite of the 
    league-leading offense.  The assessment was doubly true in the
    postseason (could "expect the worse" have even dared to portend the
    exploits of one Calvin Schiraldi?).
    
    As for "Spahn and Sain", billte gave a perfectly reasonable explanation
    for the fans' slogan, which is basically that they were smart enough to 
    realize that Spahn was a great great pitcher and an innings horse who 
    just didn't get the support that season, and that Sain was the best 
    pitcher in the league that year bar none, again based on more than 
    straight W-L pct.  No convoluted reasoning around how people didn't
    know how to divide in 1948.  Mr. Huber only posted the fact under the
    category of "interesting trivia" in the first place (I think, at
    least).
    
    glenn
    

RE      <<< Note 247.314 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    The assessment was doubly true in the
>    postseason (could "expect the worse" have even dared to portend the
>    exploits of one Calvin Schiraldi?).

  If one of those three batters had gotten just a bit under one of those hits
and popped it up, Calvin Schiraldi's statue would be standing in Fanuel Hall 
right next to one of Johnny Mac. Schiraldi got the closer job done during the
season which helped the Sox win the division but he'll always be remembered
by Red Sox fans for that one bad inning.

  Do you really think that if Ray Knight had popped up due to a bad swing on
his own part that Schiraldi would be remembered in Boston the way he is today?

>    As for "Spahn and Sain", billte gave a perfectly reasonable explanation
>    for the fans' slogan, which is basically that they were smart enough to 
>    realize that Spahn was a great great pitcher and an innings horse who 
>    just didn't get the support that season, and that Sain was the best 
>    pitcher in the league that year bar none, again based on more than 
>    straight W-L pct.  

  That explains why they liked Spahn and Sain but it doesn't explain why they
didn't like the rest of the pitching staff.

  George

    
>    Mr. Huber only posted the fact under the
>    category of "interesting trivia" in the first place (I think, at
>    least).
    
    Technically, "interesting piece of data", but still.
    
    I agree completely with the idea that the fans _knew_, logically,
    that the success of the Braves was largely tied to Spahn and Sain;
    the rest of the staff was clearly somewhat better than they were
    given credit for, but I suspect that the largest factor was poor
    run support for Spahn and Sain.
    
    Joe

    
    
        If Mookie would have hit that one up just a little more like you
    say it woulda got Billy Buck in the Nads!!!
    
    
    Chap

  No doubt, but he would have kept it in front of him, flipped it to Bob
Stanley covering and on they would have gone to the 11th. Who knows how it
would have come out, I think the odds would have been against the Sox. 

  But if Ray Knight had popped up, Johnny Mac, Calvin, and Buckner would have
their likeness cast in bronze right along side Red at Quincy Market and no one
would be talking about what a terrible reliever Calvin Schiraldi turned out to
be. He'd go down in Boston history as the relief pitcher who had the most
important win in Red Sox history. 

  George

    
    Food for thought:
    
    I don't know how the pitchers of old did things, but today team A puts
    their best pitcher against team B's best pitcher.  Logic says that a
    pitcher in this situation might only win 50% of their games.  However,
    if the same pitcher was put against the #4 pitcher, that individual
    might win 75% of the games.
    
    W-L alone is a useless statistic.  You need to have a complete
    understanding of the pitcher (ie, what was the ERA)
    
    Marc
    

    
    >>But if Ray Knight had popped up, Johnny Mac, Calvin, and Buckner
    >>would have
    
    Now Buckner would have a statue, too?  Why not Stanley as well?
    Why not the entire 1986 Boston Red Sox team, standing there at Quincy
    Market (Stanley closest to Boston Brownies), forever preserved in
    bronze?
    
    Dave

  First World Series win since 1918? They may have just put the whole team
in bronze.

  George

  The Andruw Jones watch continues and it appears that the Braves top prospect
is doing well for the Durham Bulls in high A ball.

                                      AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
    Jones, Andruw, OF            ... .301  73  23  22  4  0  5  12  23  20   1

  Will they move him up to AA or bring him along a level a year? Hard to
tell. The Braves seem to have some good players at both the AAA and AA level
whom they are trying to develop and the Major League club seems pretty well
set. 

  George

Just to follow up the discussion of the 1948 Braves (and my respect to
George for not responding in kind to the name calling), here are the
data for the most frequently used Boston pitchers, from The Baseball
Encyclopedia:

PITCHER		G	IP	W	L	SV	ERA

Sain		42	315	24	15	1	2.60
Spahn		36	257	15	12	1	3.71
Voiselle	37	216	13	13	2	3.63
Bickford	33	146	11	 5	1	3.27
Barrett		34	128	 7	 8	0	3.65
Hogue		40	 86	 8	 2	2	3.23
Shoun		36	 74	 5	 1	4	4.01

What distinguishes Spahn from the "two days of rain" more than anything
else is innings.  They all pitched in approximately the same number of
games, but only Sain and Spahn gave them innings.  It suggests Billy
Southworth was doing a first rate job handling his staff.

Spahn and Sain were each in their third full season in 1948; at the time,
you'd have been forgiven for thinking Sain had the brighter future.  He'd
won 20 three times (20-14, 2.21; 21-12, 3.52; 24-15, 2.60), where Spahn,
four years younger, was still figuring things out (8-5, 2.94; 21-10, 2.33;
15-12, 3.71).  But Sain retired at 38 after 11 seasons (1955), after which
Spahn had another *seven* 20-win seasons.  He retired at 44 in 1965 and
was elected to the Hall of Fame, but incredibly not until 1973.

As for Andruw Jones, patience.  He's still fanning too often.

Steve

    What name calling?  Must have missed it.  Steve you missed your big
    chance when in Boston to go to Dorchester or even Brighton and drop
    some gem like "Holmes was really out at second on that pickoff, we
    really got a break there. Too bad we couldn't solve Lemon" and get an
    all day discussion of the Boston Braves.  1948 for the Braves was like
    the battle of Mouldon for the English they just kept talking and
    replaying it for years.
    
    Boston is probably the only nearly English city in America and it has
    odd characters and odd behavior and celebrates same.  George's position
    on the Braves/Atlanta thing is fairly legit in those parts.

>                                             Steve you missed your big
>   chance when in Boston to go to Dorchester or even Brighton and drop
>   some gem like "Holmes was really out at second on that pickoff, we
>   really got a break there. Too bad we couldn't solve Lemon" and get an
>   all day discussion of the Boston Braves.

Sounds like a grand time.  Filed away for the next visit.  Of course, I
was a pretty little fellow in 1948.  The only thing I remember being aware
of was Stan Musial hitting .376 and slugging .702, with me trying to tune
in KMOX when the sunspots were right.
    
>   Boston is probably the only nearly English city in America and it has
>   odd characters and odd behavior and celebrates same.  George's position
>   on the Braves/Atlanta thing is fairly legit in those parts.

I've supported George's position from the beginning.  After all, I'm from
a city that has seen plenty of teams move in and out:  Dodgers, Angels,
Rams (both ways), Raiders (ditto), Lakers, Clippers--it's LA's only mass
transit system.  Incredibly, the only indigenous team in Los Angeles is
the Kings.  And they don't play within the city limits, which the late
unlamented Sharks of the WHA did.

Boston appeals to me for a lot of reasons, but I can't say that it feels
in any way English to me, despite the remnants of Colonial architecture.
The only place I've ever been in North America that felt even remotely
English was Ontario, Canada.  Societies evolve with astonishing rapidity,
and we and the English have become as different as our languages.

Steve

  Another outfielder in the Braves organization went down with a season ending
injury. According to the Richmond Braves Web page AAA prospect Damon Hollins
will need surgery to shorten the ulna bone in his wrist which healed too long
after an injury he sustained during highschool 6 years ago. It was causing him
pain when he swung the bat. 

  Also prospect Wonderful Mounds seems to have disappeared from the stats for
the Braves AA Greenville farm club. I can't find any word anywhere on what
happened to Mounds. Anyone have any info? 

  George 

    >>Also prospect Wonderful Mounds
    
    My mind is not thinking about baseball when I see this names. This name
    should be in Demi Moores new movie!!
    
    Mike
    

    
    >>Also prospect Wonderful Mounds
    >
    > My mind is not thinking about baseball when I see this names. This name
    > should be in Demi Moores new movie!!
    
    It's better than that, even.  The guy's real full name is actually
    Wonderful Terrific Monds (not Mounds, as in Demi's, but we've already
    done the "beat up on George for his 'typos' thang"), and he's either
    a WTM, Jr., or more the more stately WTM III.  I believe one of his 
    predecessors played in the Negro Leagues or some such.  The original 
    WTM was named as such because he was the first boy in the family after
    10 tries or so, as his parents were sexist.
    
    Couple of years ago, at least, Wonderful was regarded as a top
    prospect.  Maybe he's fallen from grace and is now only "Marginally
    Adequate" Monds...
    
    
    glenn
    
    

      Aren't Demi Moore's "mounds" fake?
    
      Tim

    
    
    
      > Also prospect Wonderful Mounds seems to have disappeared
    
    
      And reappeared at the Fuzzy Grape last week with shows at 2, 4, and
    8 daily.

    
>    Couple of years ago, at least, Wonderful was regarded as a top
>    prospect.  Maybe he's fallen from grace and is now only "Marginally
>    Adequate" Monds...
    
    Still looks like a _reasonable_ prospect to me; he's only 23, and
    played OK in AA last year.  Maybe "Reasonably Above Average" Monds...
    
    Joe

>      Aren't Demi Moore's "mounds" fake?

I don't know. She's sported a pretty good set as long as she's been
around. Her earliest display was in _Blame it on Rio_ where a lot of
young ladies saunter around nekid on top.

There is a rather short list of things that I think should be banned.
Being basically a libertarian, I'd have no problem with complete anarchy.
But as long as there is a government I think they should do their job and
ban the following:

	Fake Mounds
	Artificial Turf
	Designated Hitter

That's about it for me.

TTom

RE       <<< Note 247.331 by ROCK::HUBER "From Seneca to Cuyahoga Falls" >>>

>    Still looks like a _reasonable_ prospect to me; he's only 23, and
>    played OK in AA last year.  Maybe "Reasonably Above Average" Monds...
    
  He was hitting around .308 at AA Greenville 6 weeks into the season so I
guess he was still doing ok but then he suddenly disappeared from the stats
without showing up at AAA Richmond or single A Durham or Macon. 

  That would happen if he went on the DL but I didn't see anything listed
so I was wondering if anyone knew where he went?

  George

>But as long as there is a government I think they should do their job and
>ban the following:
>
>	Fake Mounds
>	Artificial Turf
>	Designated Hitter

Why should you care about the DH - you don't even like baseball!

    
>There is a rather short list of things that I think should be banned.
>Being basically a libertarian, I'd have no problem with complete anarchy.
>But as long as there is a government I think they should do their job and
>ban the following:
>
>	Fake Mounds
>	Artificial Turf
>	Designated Hitter
    
    Of those three, I think Artificial Turf should be the most clear cut
    case.  The other two have _some_ supporters, at least, but the only
    good thing I've ever heard said about artificial turf is that it's
    good for the marching band.
    
    Other additions I'd make to the list:
    
    Domed Stadiums
    Neutral Site Super Bowls
    Use Of Civic Funds To Lure Away Teams
    Art Modell
    
    Joe       

I don't like MLB and am so-so on AAA but the minors I like. Hail I even
go to see 'em. There's a_outside chance that I can catch a Charleston
Alley Cats game thised weekend at beautiful Watt Powell Park, with real
grass.

I don't know if'n their mounds are fake, though.

Abolishing fake turf and the DH would really help out.

>  "It's Baseball And You're An American"

One thing I do like about MLB is the ESPN commercials with Abe and that
other guy. 

TTom

TTom

On a Braves telecast early this month, one of the announcers stated that, over
the past three seasons, only seven pitchers have managed a .500 record, 150
innings pitched, and an ERA under four in each of those seasons.  Two of them
are National Leaguers, Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine.  The others:  Dennis
Martinez, Alex Fernandez, Jack MacDowell, Kevin Appier, and Randy Johnson.

The 150 innings looks easier than it is, given the shortened seasons of
1994-5, but even so, I find this pretty shocking.

Steve

    .332
    
    >      Aren't Demi Moore's "mounds" fake?
    
    Yes, she had the thre'penny bit implants a few years back. 
    
    
    CHARLEY

    
  >> Her earliest display was in _Blame it on Rio_ where a lot of
    
     She wasn't in that movie. See her in St Elmo's Fore and see her 
     now. The difference is marked.
    

>  >> Her earliest display was in _Blame it on Rio_ where a lot of
>    
>     She wasn't in that movie. See her in St Elmo's Fore and see her 
>     now. The difference is marked.

Oh tommy, where fore art thou.

 [Internet Movie Database]   Cinema check 

                            BLAME IT ON RIO (1984)
                                       
USA 1984 Color

   
   
   rating rating rating rating
   4.9/10 (262 votes)
   
   Produced by: Sherwood
   Genre(s)/keyword(s): Comedy / romance / farce
   Certification: Germany:16 / USA:R
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Additional Information (click an icon)
   
   plot-summary laserdisc rating locations business 
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
          
   Directed by
          Stanley Donen
          
   Cast (in credits order) probably complete
          Michael Caine .... Matthew Hollis
          Joseph Bologna .... Victor Lyons
          Valerie Harper .... Karen Hollis
          Michelle Johnson .... Jennifer Lyons
          Demi Moore .... Nicole Hollis
          Jose Lewgoy .... Eduardo Marques
          Lupe Gigliotti .... Signora Botega
          Michael Menaugh .... Peter
          Tessy Callado .... Helaine
          Ana Lucia Lima .... Macumba Lady #1
          Maria Helena Velasco .... Macumba Lady #2
          Zeni Pereira .... Mother of the Bride
          Eduardo Conde .... Singer in the Club
          Betty Von Wien .... Isabella
          Nelson Dantas .... Doctor
          Thomas Lee Mahon .... Lorenzo
          Victor Ham .... Bernardo
          Jane Duboc .... Singer in the Cafe
          Romulo Arantes .... Diego
          Giovanna Soore .... Astrid
          Grupo Benzala .... Capomirata
          Angelo Mattos .... Dancer
          
   Written by
          Larry Gelbart
          Charlie Peters
          
   Cinematography by
          Reynaldo Villalobos
          
   Music by
          Ken Wannberg
          
   Film Editing by
          George Hively
          Richard Marden
          
   Produced by
          Stanley Donen
          Larry Gelbart (executive)
          Robert E. Relyea (associate)
          
   Other crew
          Chuck Finch (gaffer)
          
  LINKS WITH OTHER MOVIES
  
   remake of
          Moment d'Egarement, Un (1977)
          
   
   
    _________________
   
   
   Cast your vote for Blame It on Rio (1984) (1=awful, 10=excellent)
   
__1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9__10__

   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Search-Help-Index
   
   
   Copyright 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

    Demi Moore was Michelle Johnson's friend in that movie, so she
    naturally took a back seat, so to say, to Michelle's attributes.
    
    BTW, whatever happened to Michelle Johnson?
    
    NAZZ

 


Michelle Johnson from the Miss State WWW



Michelle Johnson's biographical information.

There's also a combined view of the filmographies below.

The IMDb has filmographies for Michelle Johnson in the following
categories:
   Actress Miscellaneous crew 



Actress filmography
    1. Illicit Dreams (1994) .... Melinda Ryan 
    2. Incident at Deception Ridge (1994) (TV) 
    3. Menendez: A Killing in Beverly Hills (1994) (TV) .... Lisa 
    4. Body Shot (1993) .... Danielle/Chelsea 
    5. Death Becomes Her (1992) .... Anna 
    6. Dr. Giggles (1992) .... Tamara 
    7. Driving Me Crazy (1992) .... Ricki 
      ... aka Trabbi Goes to Hollywood (1992) 
    8. Far and Away (1992) .... Grace 
    9. Her Final Fury: Betty Broderick, The Last Chapter (1992)
      (TV) .... Special Appearance 
      ... aka Till Murder Do Us Part II (1992) (TV) 
    10. Woman Scorned: The Betty Broderick Story, A (1992) (TV)
      .... Linda 
      ... aka Till Murder Do Us Part (1992) (TV) 
    11. Blood Ties (1991) (TV) .... Celia 
    12. Genuine Risk (1990) 

    13. Jigsaw Murders, The (1988) .... Kathy DaVonzo 
    14. Slipping Into Darkness (1988) 
    15. Waxwork (1988) .... China 
    16. Beaks: The Movie (1987) 
    17. Werewolf (1987) (TV) 
    18. Gung Ho (1986) .... Heather 
      ... aka Working Class Man (1986) 
    19. Blame It on Rio (1984) .... Jennifer Lyons 

    20. "Love Boat, The" (1977)TV Series 
    21. Journey Among Women (1977) .... Biddie 



Miscellaneous crew filmography
    1. Chasers (1994) (hair styles) 
    2. Radioland Murders (1994) (key hairstylist) 
    3. Super Mario Bros. (1993) (key hair styles) 

    4. Abyss, The (1989) (stunts) 

                      

Search-Help-Index 

Copyright 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

I think it was more of a case of Michelle standing out and front of
Demi...

Here's Michelle's bio. It looks like she shoulda stuck with taking her
clothes off.

 [Internet Movie Database]   Search for movies with costars  

                               MICHELLE JOHNSON
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Michelle Johnson's biographical information.
   
   There's also a combined view of the filmographies below.
   
   The IMDb has filmographies for Michelle Johnson in the following
          categories:
          Actress Miscellaneous crew
          
   
            __________________________________________________________
          
          
          Actress filmography
          
         1. Illicit Dreams (1994) .... Melinda Ryan
         2. Incident at Deception Ridge (1994) (TV)
         3. Menendez: A Killing in Beverly Hills (1994) (TV) .... Lisa
         4. Body Shot (1993) .... Danielle/Chelsea
         5. Death Becomes Her (1992) .... Anna
         6. Dr. Giggles (1992) .... Tamara
         7. Driving Me Crazy (1992) .... Ricki
            ... aka Trabbi Goes to Hollywood (1992)
         8. Far and Away (1992) .... Grace
         9. Her Final Fury: Betty Broderick, The Last Chapter (1992) (TV)
            .... Special Appearance
            ... aka Till Murder Do Us Part II (1992) (TV)
        10. Woman Scorned: The Betty Broderick Story, A (1992) (TV) ....
            Linda
            ... aka Till Murder Do Us Part (1992) (TV)
        11. Blood Ties (1991) (TV) .... Celia
        12. Genuine Risk (1990)
            
        13. Jigsaw Murders, The (1988) .... Kathy DaVonzo
        14. Slipping Into Darkness (1988)
        15. Waxwork (1988) .... China
        16. Beaks: The Movie (1987)
        17. Werewolf (1987) (TV)
        18. Gung Ho (1986) .... Heather
            ... aka Working Class Man (1986)
        19. Blame It on Rio (1984) .... Jennifer Lyons
            
        20. "Love Boat, The" (1977)TV Series
        21. Journey Among Women (1977) .... Biddie
            
   
          
            __________________________________________________________
          
          
          Miscellaneous crew filmography
          
         1. Chasers (1994) (hair styles)
         2. Radioland Murders (1994) (key hairstylist)
         3. Super Mario Bros. (1993) (key hair styles)
            
         4. Abyss, The (1989) (stunts)
            
   __________________________________________________________
   
   
   Search-Help-Index
   
   
   Copyright 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

 


Demi Moore from the Miss State WWW



Additional Information (click an icon)





Demi Moore's biographical information.

There's also a combined view of the filmographies below.

The IMDb has filmographies for Demi Moore in the following categories:
   Actress Producer 



Actress filmography
    1. Hunchback of Notre Dame, The (1996) (voice) .... Esmeralda 
    2. If These Walls Could Talk (1996) (TV) 
    3. Juror, The (1996) .... Annie Laird 
    4. Striptease (1996) .... Erin Grant 
    5. Undisclosed (1996) 
      ... aka G.I. Jane (1996) 
    6. Now and Then (1995) .... Samantha 
      ... aka Gaslight Addition (1995) 
    7. Scarlet Letter, The (1995) .... Hester Prynne 
    8. Disclosure (1994) .... Meredith Johnson 
    9. Indecent Proposal (1993) .... Diana Murphy 
    10. Few Good Men, A (1992) .... Lt. Cmdr. JoAnne Galloway 
    11. Butcher's Wife, The (1991) .... Marina 
    12. Mortal Thoughts (1991) .... Cynthia Kellogg 
    13. Nothing But Trouble (1991) .... Diane Lightson 
    14. Ghost (1990) (C:GGN) .... Molly Jensen 

    15. We're No Angels (1989) .... Molly 
    16. Seventh Sign, The (1988) .... Abby Quinn 
    17. About Last Night... (1986) .... Debbie 
    18. One Crazy Summer (1986) .... Cassandra 
    19. Wisdom (1986) .... Karen 
    20. St. Elmo's Fire (1985) .... Jules 
    21. "Master, The" (1984)TV Series .... Holly Trumbull 
    22. Blame It on Rio (1984) .... Nicole Hollis 
    23. No Small Affair (1984) .... Laura Victor 
    24. Parasite (1982) .... Patricia Welles 
    25. Young Doctors in Love (1982) 
    26. Choices (1981) 

    27. "General Hospital" (1963)TV Series .... Jackie Templeton
      (1983) 



Producer filmography
    1. If These Walls Could Talk (1996) (TV) (executive) 
    2. Now and Then (1995) 
      ... aka Gaslight Addition (1995) 
    3. Mortal Thoughts (1991) (co-producer) 

                      

Search-Help-Index 

Copyright 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

  Well I guess we've got this technology down.

  :*)}
  George

And a tip o' the hat for pointing me to it, George.

Movies and titles are on the list of things that they shouldn't ban.

TTom

    re: .340
    
    Did you say check out Michelle's Johnson or check out Michelle
    Johnson's?

    Wonderful Monds III update - he's on the DL, and has been for about a
    month, with a broken wrist.
    
    UMDan
    
    (but keep up the mounds discussion!)

  Any word on how long he'll be out?

  George

    Dear Moderator,
    
    Will you please change the lame title of this note to "Atlanta Braves".
    
    Dan

  Sounds kind of restrictive. When we're talking about Wonderful Monds we're
talking about the Greenville Braves. 

  George

    
    yes George, but the Greeenville Braves are still in existance not a
    ghost or has been team. I would ask the noting public to vote. 
    Do we use the correct name of George's lame name?

      How about "the braves"?

    Re: Wonderful Monds - I believe that he is out for the season.  An
    article in yesterday's paper about the recent Braves drafts says he was
    having a good year until the "season ending injury".
    
    Anyone have any information regarding the expansion draft this year? 
    How many players you can protect, the rules, etc.?
    
    UMDan

  The two new teams don't play until '98 so if they go by the same system they
used last time the expansion draft won't be held until after the '97 season.

  Last time each team was allowed to protect 15 players.

  Thanks for the info on Monds.

  George

As far as I'm concerned, George created the topic and that gives him the
right to name it, subject only to the general P&Ps applying to noting.

Steve

THe expansion teams don't get to have the expansion draft until nexted year. 
 The Dbacks draft 30th thised year.

brews

        <<< Note 61.2230 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Did ya notice that when Smoltz won his 14th in a row he beat a team
>record held by a guy who played for Boston? Aught-two or something like
>that.

  I remember seeing something about that back when he was round 10 wins. One of
the Braves announcers said that the old record was for consecutive wins without
a loss or a no-decision. Smoltz ran off the 1st 10 of those wins in consecutive
starts but had a no-decision around the 11th start.

  But still the 14 wins in a row without a loss is an impressive record for
a guy playing for a team that has been around since 1876, with 30 some odd
years in Atlanta and 80 some odd years ... somewhere.

  George

  The Andruw Jones watch continues. The Braves 19 year old OF prospect Andruw
Jones has been promoted to AA Greenville and he is doing there was he was doing
at lower levels. 

                                GREENVILLE BRAVES
                                      AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
    Jones, Andruw, OF            ... .306 108  24  33  5  0  7  22  11  28   6

  That's a Runs created per game of about 8.5. Next year he should be coming to
Pawtucket with the AAA Richmond Braves.

  George

    
    
    
        Parade in October..

  Well, that may happen again in Atlanta anyway but any October parade for
a major league team with Andruw Jones will be a couple years off.

  Still he's moving right along, about 2 levels per year. That's pretty quick
for any team much less a championship team.

  George

>                               GREENVILLE BRAVES
>                                     AVG  AB   R   H 2B 3B HR RBI  BB  SO  SB
>   Jones, Andruw, OF            ... .306 108  24  33  5  0  7  22  11  28   6
                                                                    **  **

Very impressive, he's showing enough power that I'd overlook the strikeouts,
if it weren't for the walks.  The suggestion is still that he hasn't figured
out the strike zone.

I expect to see him in Atlanta by 1998 (or September 1997), but if this
isn't corrected, major league pitchers will have him for lunch with 58-foot
breaking balls.

Steve

    
    Mortgage the farm and take it to the bank, he's as close to the real
    deal as it gets...

RE  <<< Note 63.2659 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "Donnie Baseball Yankee HOFer!!!" >>>
>                 -< BREAKING/CRACKING.....ITS ALL EGGS TO ME >-

  I'm not talking about BREAKING/CRACKING. I'm asking you where did you see me
claim that Mercker almost cracked Atlanta's *** STAFF ***.
                                                -----
  Your note:

>RE  <<< Note 63.2654 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "Donnie Baseball Yankee HOFer!!!" >>>
>
>           You made the comment that he almost cracked Atlanta's staff.
                                                                  -----

  I never "made the comment that he almost cracked Atlanta's staff". What I
said was that Mercker almost broke into the starting ** ROTATION **. 

  Since Maddux was signed the Braves starting ** ROTATION ** as consisted of
Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and Avery. Those four guys pitch on a rotating basis
and if any one of them has his 4 days rest he goes even if it's the 5th man's
turn to pitch. The 5th starter is only a spot starter who pitches in the event
that one of the top 4 has not had his 4 days rest. He does not rotate with the
top four.

  George

    
    
      Didn't you say earlier that the top 4 had 28-29 starts with Mercker
    only having 26? Yeah that sounds like spot starting to me. I meant
    starting staff. Mercker was one of the 5 STARTERS last year. And no
    matter what spin control you try to use.......
    
    
        YOUR WRONG GEORGE.
    
        If you wanna know who your other players were on your favorite team
    last year send me mail and I'll help you out.
    
    
    Chap

RE  <<< Note 247.366 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "Donnie Baseball Yankee HOFer!!!" >>>

>      Didn't you say earlier that the top 4 had 28-29 starts with Mercker
>    only having 26? Yeah that sounds like spot starting to me. 

  '95 was an unusual year. They started late and didn't get as many days off so
the spot starter was needed nearly all the time. However the fact that the top
4 were all within 1 and Mercker was 2 or 3 behind shows that he was not
strictly in the rotation and was skipped when ever one of the big guns was
ready to go. 

>I meant
>    starting staff. Mercker was one of the 5 STARTERS last year. And no
>    matter what spin control you try to use.......

  Fine that's what you mean. I'm not arguing with that. But this LDUC started
because you were complaining about what I said. What difference does it make
what you meant?
    
>        YOUR WRONG GEORGE.

  No, I was right. Mercker was not part of the Braves starting rotation. Their
starting rotation for the last few years has been Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz,
Avery and those guys have compiled a remarkable record including not skipping
any starts for several years. They rotate. Their 5th guy just did spot starts
to give them a rest.
    
>        If you wanna know who your other players were on your favorite team
>    last year send me mail and I'll help you out.
    
  This of course is what this is really all about. You can no longer come out
and say I'm a band wagon jumper because I provided documented evidence of being
a fan back in '91 and you would look like too much of a fool advancing that
argument that "if you only put it in BASEBALL instead of SPORTS then you were
not really a fan".

  Give it a rest Chap, you know I've been a Braves fan. You were even playing
against my Braves in the SNAL.

  George

Stop wriggling, George.

    
    
       You give it a rest. The Braves had 5 guys in there Starting rotation
    last year. You don't pitch two less games and not be a regular starter.
    
    
         Just admit you don't know as much about baseball as you lead on
    that you do! In April you thought Kenny Rogers was still in Texas and
    you think Dave Winfield was the 2nd coming of Mr October.
    
         Of Course if you have 4 premier starters or three for that matter
    you are gonna pitch them whenever you can, but that doesn't mean the
    other two  or one are not in the starting rotation.
    
       BTW who's gonna break Babe Ruth's HR record???
    
    
    Chap

    
>       BTW who's gonna break Babe Ruth's HR record???
    
    His career HR/AB record?  Can't think of anyone likely to, though
    Mark McGwire might put up a fight if he hadn't played half his
    career in Oakland.
    
    Joe

    
    
       Oh that must have been the record George was talking about in the
    Spring.
    
    
    Chap

  Ok so let me review the latest line of logic from our own Flat Earth Society.

  I made the point that Kent Mercker was an enigma because he had a tremendous
year with the Braves but is really struggling with Baltimore. My point was that
he had done so well with the Braves that some people talked about him replacing
Avery while with Baltimore he has a 7+ ERA.

  As a side issue, Chappy pointed out that he and I disagree over the meaning
of the phrase "Pitching Rotation". I believe it's restricted to those guys who
the manager starts in rotation when ever they are ready, Chappy thinks it
includes spot or 5th starters. Fine, we disagree over this minor point which
by the way has almost nothing to do with this discussion.

  The conclusion that the Flat Earth Society has drawn form this is that I
should fess up that I know little about the Braves or Baseball in general.

  OAK KAY ... fine. That makes sense.

  George

    
    
         You didn't say replacing Avery. You said breaking into the
    starting rotation if I recall.
    
    
         Where did I ever say the Earth was flat. Or that I was in the flat
    Earth society.

       Nope nothing about Avery????
    
    
                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 63.2635                    CLEVELAND INDIANS                   2635 of 2654
CLUSTA::MAIEWSKI "Bos-Mil-Atl Braves W.S. Champs"    14 lines  22-JUL-1996 10:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Mercker is really an enigma. After his no-hitter back in '94 there were
people seriously considering the possibility of him breaking into the Braves
starting rotation, probably the toughest place to land a pitching job in the
last few decades. However with Baltimore he's gone nowhere falling off last
year and racking up a 7+ ERA and giving up a home run every 5-6 innings so far
this season. 

  The question is, which Mercker will show up in Cleveland. He seems to be
on the decline and at best you'd have to say he's had little to no luck in
the American League.

  Maybe the tribe is looking to steal pitching signals during the World Series.

  George

    Who wrote "The Village that Voted the Earth was Flat"?
    
    
    
    
    Rudyard Kipling.  Very funny little short story.  George's reference is
    pretty topical.
    
    I had hoped to this this "rotation" debate called a tie and you all
    moving on to the Olympics.

  Chappy, I'm really struggling here to decide if you are really that stupid
or if you are just pretending to be dense to pull my chain. Really I'm not
going to argue with you about this much longer. Here's one more attempt:

  No, I didn't say Avery. I said "Pitching rotation" implying the 4 man
rotation of Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and Avery. Most people understood what
I meant but you and one or two others didn't pick that up.

  It appears that the reason you didn't understand is that you and I disagree
over the definition of the term "pitching rotation". You feel it refers to
all the starters, I feel it only refers to those starters who actual pitch
in rotation and go when ever they are ready.

  Now if that's as far as it went, fine. We disagree over a minor point. What
I don't understand is why you are acting so dense that you can't see that we
have no major dispute over Mercker and none of this means anything about any
person's knowledge of baseball, it's simply a dispute over a minor point having
little to do with the discussion.

  You are acting like a member of the Flat Earth society.

  George

    
    
      Again I am not a member of that Society. I hope this helps.
    
    
       Secondly, Thanks I really appreciate being called stupid.
    
    
        Thirdly, The reason I kept this debate up was because from what you
    say you have never lost a debate yet in here. Well this time you flat
    out are wrong. You say most people agree with you. Who? Where are the
    notes? 
    
    
    Chap

  Ok, let me see if I have this straight. My point is that Mercker did well
last year and is doing poorly this year which would lead one to wonder which
Mercker will show up in Cleveland. 

  You and I disagree over the meaning of the phrase "pitching rotation". In
Atlanta's case I believe it only applies to Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and
Avery since they pitch in rotation and others do spot starts. You believe
it applies to all starters. This lead to a misunderstanding where you thought
I implied Mercker was not a starter for the Braves last year while I just
meant he was a spot starter who wouldn't go if Maddux or one of the other
3 was ready.

  You are angry because when I said LDUCs are caused by some people letting
emotions get in the way of logic you interpreted that as me saying I was always
right.

  You believe a conclusion can be drawn from all of this is that I don't know
anything about baseball and you resent being called stupid or a member of
the flat earth society.

  Is that about right? If so can we drop it now?

  George

    George, isn't there, truly, a Flat Earth Society?  It does truly exist
    if I'm not mistaken.  And doubtlessly it's darn hard to get into.
    
    Now that I think of it the Boers called themselves that in the sense
    that they were bible literalists and felt that the bible stated the
    earth was flat and therefore it was.  That specifically must have been
    what Kipling was referring to and his audience obviously knew that.

    
    
       Yeah George you better drop it. I don't think your foot could go in
    any farther w/o you needing dental work.
    
    
    Chap

RE  <<< Note 247.380 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "Donnie Baseball Yankee HOFer!!!" >>>

>       Yeah George you better drop it. I don't think your foot could go in
>    any farther w/o you needing dental work.
    
  Right Chappy, what ever you say.

  George

    
    
       Okie Dokie.

    
    How can you call a guy who traded Juan Gonzalez for Dan Gladden stupid?

  Speaking of the Braves pitchers, for the 1st time in a long time the big four
are starting to pick up injuries. Maddux had a foot problem around the time of
the all-star game and Avery is having some pain on his left side but he hopes
to make his regular start tomorrow. 

  Also, when #5 starter Jason Schmidt went on the DL they called up Brad
Woodall from AAA Richmond who has struggled a bit. I saw a rumor somewhere that
if they need him Terrel Wade might get a start here or there. 

  George

  The Andruw Jones watch continues. Last year at age 18 outfielder Andruw Jones
was selected as minor league player of the year. This year he played the 1st
half of the season for the Braves high A ball Durham Bulls. Along about the
all-star break he was promoted to the Braves Double A Greenville and then a few
weeks later got promoted again to AAA Richmond. As of Sunday Jones was hitting
.378 with 4 home runs in 10 games at the AAA level. 

  On Friday Aug 23 the Richmond Braves arrive in Pawtucket for a 3 game series
and the big question is whether we will be able to see him or if by then he
will be playing for Atlanta. 

  The Braves don't usually rush players along and speculation was that next
year he'd be in AA and the following in AAA but at the pace he's going by next
year he'll be playing in the all-star game. People are already beginning to
compare him to Griffey. 

  Between Andruw Jones and Jermaine Dye, David Justice might have a tough fight
next year if he wants his old job back with the Braves.

  George

Why would they not wait until the Sept call ups?

  The Braves are in a pennant race and they could use a really good right
fielder right away. Jermaine Dye is doing a decent job filling in for David
Justice by holding up his part of a platoon with Dwight Smith and others but if
this guy is ready to hit at the major league the way his AAA numbers project
then an argument could be made for calling him up today. 

  Most likely they will wait until September but they also might want to be
sure to call him up in enough time for him to make the playoff roster. He's
probably no worse than the 4th best outfielder the Braves have right now after
Marquis Grissom, Ryan Klesko, and Dye unless they want to play Chipper Jones
in the outfield and someone else at 3rd.

  There is also talk that the Braves might make a move and trade for another
outfield. Troy O'Leary's name has come up with respect to this a few times
but if Andruw Jones is ready, that might not be necessary.

  George

    
    re .386,
    
    	Players on the 25 man roster and the DL list as of midnight August
    31st, are eligible for post season play. So you usually see reserve
    IF and OF placed on the 15 day DL with strained hamstrings, with a
    pitcher taken there place. So come playoff time, you have extra
    pitching or bench help if you need it.
    
    Ron

    There is talk of bringing Jones up early, but nothing definitive. 

    Also, just heard on the radio that the Braves just traded a minor
    leaguer (Class A) to the Marlins for Terry Pendleton.

    Interesting move in that Chipper has pretty much sewn up 3rd base,
    unless the Braves are gonna pull a Ripken and put Jones at SS with TP at
    3rd.  Blauser is on the DL (and has made tons of errors this year),
    and Belliard couldn't hit it out of the infield from a tee ball stand.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see them make a move for a pitcher, though,
    given that Avery could only throw 4 pitches last night in a rehab
    assignment at Class AA Greenville.  After the 4th pitch the pain in his
    side returned and he left the game.

    UMDan

  Bobby Cox and the Braves management in general don't rush players along so I
can't think of many other reasons for bringing him up from Single A to AAA so
quick. Chipper Jones and Javy Lopez, for example, spent an entire year at AA
Greenville. That team flirted with some sort of record by being one of the few
AA teams to ever win 100 games. 

  So about the only reason I could see for rushing him along would be to get a
quick look at him in AAA to keep their options open for bringing him up for the
pennant race and playoffs if they can't make a trade that they like. True
Richmond was hurting for outfielders but normally the development of a guy
like Jones takes precedence over the win loss record of the AAA franchise.

  George

    Rumor is that TP will play 3rd, Jones will go to right.  Not a good
    move in my book, but I had to give up my GM job a while ago. :-)
    
    UMDan

    
    Not a good move at all; Dye hasn't been great offensively (.430 SLG,
    .304 OBP), but he's still quite a bit better than Pendleton (.357 SLG,
    .298).  And there doesn't seem to be any particular defensive gain.
    
    Now, moving Jones to _shortstop_ - that would make sense.
    
    Joe

    Jones will probably end up playing a little at both SS and RF.  If
    Blauser can't come back, look for him at SS, otherwise he'll be in
    right.  My guess is that he starts at SS tonight in Philly.

    UMDan

  During the game last night one of the announcers said he talked to Bobby Cox.
He quoted Cox as saying that Pendelton will be playing a lot of 3rd and that
Chipper Jones would be playing some short and some outfield. 

  Most likely the amount of right field Chipper plays will depend on who they
get to help out in right field. If Andruw Jones comes up and does well, if they
trade for someone, or if one of the guys there gets hot then Chipper will
probably stay at short. If Right field is a problem then we'll see a lot of
Rafael Belliard at short and Chipper in right. 

  Also they could be doing a lot of late inning moves when they are ahead
with Belliard coming into play short and Chipper going to right or 3rd. 

  George

>  During the game last night one of the announcers said he talked to Bobby Cox.
>He quoted Cox as saying that Pendelton will be playing a lot of 3rd and that
>Chipper Jones would be playing some short and some outfield. 

During the past off-season, Cox was quoted as saying that Jones was definitely
his best 3rd baseman, probably his best shortstop, and one of the best
outfielders.

The only downside I see to the trade for Pendleton is if the constant moving
from position to position somehow affects Chipper's offense.  Pendleton turned
it around the last time he went to Atlanta - it may happen again.  It's
amazing how much easier it can be to hit when there are good hitters around
you - the Marlins have had their offensive woes this year.

     Quote from Jones in the paper, who would prefer moving to right -

    "I can concentrate a lot more on my hitting if I'm playing in the
    outfield.  At shortstop there are a lot of things to think about."

    They still may need to pick up some pitching if Avery is out for any
    length of time.

    UMDan

>    Not a good move at all; Dye hasn't been great offensively (.430 SLG,
>    .304 OBP), but he's still quite a bit better than Pendleton (.357 SLG,
>    .298).  And there doesn't seem to be any particular defensive gain.
    
    Look for Pendleton to hit better than those numbers with the Braves,
    though...
    
    
    glenn
    

RE          <<< Note 247.396 by ODIXIE::ZOGRAN "Post-Olympics blues" >>>

>    They still may need to pick up some pitching if Avery is out for any
>    length of time.

  They may get away without a lot more pitching if Terrell Wade comes around.
The net had a story about how they worked on his mechanics and he started
pitching better. I think he goes tomorrow afternoon. We'll see how he does.

  Last night the bull pen did a pretty good job of handling the 2nd game of
the double header.

  George

    Having Maddux go all the way in the first helped the bullpen a lot. 
    They have been solid of late, but I still wouldn't be surprised to see
    them do something in the pitching area.
    
    UMDan

    
    Re: Pendleton's hitting
    
    Not _much_ better, though; he's dropped off a great deal (though not
    a surprising amount - basically what you would expect, given his age)
    since his two great seasons in Atlanta.
    
    It he slugs better than .400, or gets on base at better than a .320
    clip, I'll eat my hat.  If the Braves really wanted a 3B, why not
    Naehring?  (Unless, of course, he didn't clear waivers.)
    
    Joe

  The Braves would have had to give up quite a bit more than one low A ball
outfielder for Naehring.

  George

    The Braves will make a big mistake if they move Belliard out of
    shortstop.  The team is based on pitching and managers will get
    frustrated with a lack of offense but after watching the Braves from
    afar since 1991, they always seem to do better with Belliard than any
    other alternative.
    
    Any scout can watch Pendleton from behind the plate and know what he's
    capable of right now and if he's worth anything wouldn't even want to
    see the stat sheet.

>    TRIBE::HUBER

>    It he slugs better than .400, or gets on base at better than a .320
>    clip, I'll eat my hat.

There you have it, in writing.  The only thing left to decide is the hat
in question - one of those cheapo polyester things with the adjustable
strap, or the old-timey fitted wool blends.

RE                      <<< Note 247.402 by MKOTS3::BREEN >>>

>    The Braves will make a big mistake if they move Belliard out of
>    shortstop.  The team is based on pitching and managers will get
>    frustrated with a lack of offense but after watching the Braves from
>    afar since 1991, they always seem to do better with Belliard than any
>    other alternative.
    
  Jeff Blauser has been the Braves starting short stop for several years
including last year when they ran away with their division, were undefeated in
the playoffs and won the World Series. 

  Except for times when the real short stop was injured, Belliard has been
little more than a defensive replacement since he joined the team. 

  Chipper Jones was a regular Short Stop throughout the time he was in the
Braves minor league system. The teams he played on had fantastic win loss
records with him at short. 

  If they have someone else to play third makes much more sense to have Chipper
Jones play Short and rotate guys like Dye, Whiten, Smith in right than it does
to have Belliard play Short every day. And if they can come up with a better
right fielder then it makes even more sense.

  George

    
>    Any scout can watch Pendleton from behind the plate and know what he's
>    capable of right now and if he's worth anything wouldn't even want to
>    see the stat sheet.
    
    Well, the proof's in the pudding.  If Pendleton really _has_ something
    left, then the scout clearly did his or her job.  If, as I expect,
    Pendleton continues to play like he's washed up, then the stats (with
    appropriate adjustments - his stats will be somewhat better simply
    for playing in Atlanta, where the air's a bit thinner) will have
    been the better predictor than the scout.
    
    Joe

    
>>    TRIBE::HUBER

>>    It he slugs better than .400, or gets on base at better than a .320
>>    clip, I'll eat my hat.

>There you have it, in writing.  The only thing left to decide is the hat
>in question - one of those cheapo polyester things with the adjustable
>strap, or the old-timey fitted wool blends.
    
    No, it's not left to decide - I said _my_ hat.  I keep a chocolate-
    coated fedora for just such ocassions...
    
    Joe

>    No, it's not left to decide - I said _my_ hat.  I keep a chocolate-
>    coated fedora for just such ocassions...

Fair enough!  As long as it's just coated with chocolate, not entirely
chocolate.

    Belliard played short for much of 1991 when the Braves pitching gained
    the confidence to be the foundation for their success since.  The team
    never played better.  Very few managers have the guts to keep a
    Belliard type in the lineup for long periods (and I wouldn't play him
    much more than 120-130 anyway) but I've long observed that emphasis on
    defense over offense pays in the long run.
    
    And that's surely the case in reaquiring Pendleton where defense
    execution over any statistics is the key.

  I don't buy that argument Bill. I know you like to point to defense as the be
all end all to what makes pitching work but to say that one year of having
Belliard play behind them turned the Braves pitchers into a super rotation that
lasted half a decade is a reach. 

  Blauser took over as the regular short stop by about 1992 and held that job
until he started getting injuries this season. Throughout that time the Braves
dominated the National League.

  Chipper Jones was a regular full time short stop as he worked his way up
the minors and his teams consistently won. The AA Greenville team he was on
back around 1992 or 1993 had 100 wins which is remarkable for a minor league
team.

  He can do the job and he can do it better than Blauser. As for Belliard, if
having him play one season at short back in '91 gave the pitchers enough
momentum to dominate national league hitting for 5 years, then they can always
bring him in for an inning or two if the staff needs another nudge.

  George

    Well George the Braves loaded up quite a bit during that time with
    McGriff and Maddox being two prime examples.  Wasn't Belliard at short
    most of the post season last year?
    
    If the argument is "We play Blauser because he can give us 160 games at
    short and Belly is only good for 120 and has to be platooned anyway and
    we'd rather stay consistent and hope Jeff's bat makes up the diff" then
    I'll buy that.
    
    But it's a blessing for the Braves when Belliard is in there, per my
    observation.

RE                      <<< Note 247.410 by MKOTS3::BREEN >>>

>    Well George the Braves loaded up quite a bit during that time with
>    McGriff and Maddox being two prime examples.  Wasn't Belliard at short
>    most of the post season last year?

  Belliard only plays short when Blauser is injured. It's been that way since
some time back around 1992. I believe Blauser got hurt late in the season and
missed the end of the year but the Braves never start Belliard ahead of Blauser
if Blauser is healthy. 
    
  As for Blauser, when he was playing this year the Braves seemed a lot more
concerned about his bat than his defense but even hitting .248 he plays ahead
of Belliard except maybe when they need a late inning defensive replacement.

  George

    I know what the Braves management does vis a vis the pair.  My point is
    they are wrong and should play Belliard much more.  Part of the reason
    is my observation that they win more, all other things being equal with
    Belliard.  You may be right that the sample size is too small since
    1991 since they haven't played Belliard much since then.

  Oddly enough in the 115 games that Blauser played last year he only hit .211
where Belliard hit .222 in 75 games. However Blauser had 12 home runs and
generally hit for more power. 

  Sill Blauser seems to get the nod over Belliard when both are healthy. 

  One reason this would be hard to track down is that some times they both
play. Of those 75 games, Belliard had 40 at short and 32 at 2nd. Presumably
in the 32 games he played at 2nd Blauser was at short.

  George

What do these men have in common?

All are the illegitimate children of Bill Breen...


Billte, I'd buy your defense of Belliard more if you were talking about an
AL team.  Even with the Braves' pitchers being better hitters than other NL
pitchers, it's still almost like lining up two offensive ciphers in a row.

    am I the only one with a list of people that I like to watch.  Grogan's
    gone, Alicea is currently so far buried by LaRussa he's had to register
    with a-v, Rauf would have led any other Olympic team to a silver medal,
    O'Donnell will lead the Jets to more victories than both N.E. and
    perhaps Pitt.  Camby detractors puzzle me, on this one I should be
    called a front runner; the rest, hardly.
    
    So let's see some lists of people you turn on the tv to watch.

billte,

If'n Camby is the nexted superstar, I'll be the firsted to say I knew a
guy who knowed 'im when.

I got a list of people that I like to watch. I like 'em fine though I'd
never try to make a case for their relative merits. I'm prolly the
onliest guy in Charlotte who lists Zo a one of my main mains. But I'm not
gonna claim he's the bestest center in the league.

In football, I also follow Eric Kramer, he of Wolfpackdom. Again, I don't
think he's the top QB but it wouldn't surprise me to see 'im in the Pro
Bowl.

TTom

  You're doing really well.

  To answer your question, since this is the Braves note I turn on the Braves.

  Unfortunately I'll miss Tommy Glavine tonight because I don't get Sports South
but I should be home tomorrow afternoon to see Terrel Wade pitch on TBS.

  GO BRAVES!!!
  George

        Hot off the wire -

    Atlanta traded Mark Whiten to Seatle for a minor league pitching
    prospect and,

    Andrews Jones has been called up from AAA.  He may be in uniform
    tonight on the bench.

    Verrrrry Interesting

    UMDan

    Ttom I don't say any on my list except Camby are great stars.  In
    Alicea's case I simply said if they replace him with the likes of
    Cordero they'll go right down the shoot.  No one faults Belliard's
    defensive ability, the argument there is they'll go for offense over
    defense and I challenge that.
    
    Grogan > Bradshaw really ain't saying that much.  Even Aikman's far
    less overrated than Bradshaw was.  Finally Abdul-Rauf is a basketball
    watcher's dream - an all time master with the ball creatively.  The NBA
    or at least Denver may not be the best place for him.  Pistol Pete was
    in the same boat.

>    Ttom I don't say any on my list except Camby are great stars. 

I hear ya. I guess I should put some shrubbery around the words that
indicated that I follow plays almost without regard to how good they are.

TTom

OK, Karen - now name the ugly guys on TV that you'll watch... :-)

  Andruw Jones was called up Thursday and has started his march toward the Hall
of Fame. 

  I was home watching the game Thursday afternoon. Andruw Jones started in
right field and struck out swinging on 3 pitches his 1st two times up. The guy
is definitely not a patient hitter. 

  Third time up he fouled out to 1st, Fourth time up he popped to Right and the
5th time up he hit a sharp single to left. 

  On Friday he started his 1st home game in right field and hit a lead off
triple bringing his average up to .333 then hit his 1st major league home run
later in the game. Since then he's been right around .300. He came within a
couple feet of hitting a game winning home run in extra innings yesterday but
the wind held it up. On defense he has a cannon for an arm and never misses the
cut off man. 

  Andruw Jones has arrived. Now with Klesko, Grissom, A.Jones and Dye the Braves
not only have a great outfield, they have depth.

  George

    
    
      What do they do with Justice next year???

Trade him.  He's one of the most overrated players in the game - his 
publicity far outstrips his accomplishments...

    re. -1 - Trade him?  Rumors around town are that Justice has not been
    spending as much time rehabbing the shoulder as the Braves would like. 
    With Dye, Jones et. al. I don't think the Braves would miss him that
    much.  Also, if he's gone, his $ could be used to sign some of the free
    agent pitchers for next year.

    UMDan

  Baring injuries about the only way I see David Justice returning to the
Braves starting lineup would be if Grissom left and A. Jones moved to center
field. It's possible that if McGriff left, Klesko would move back to 1st and
Justice could play left field but I think McGriff just signed a multi year
deal. Even then he'd have to beat out Jermaine Dye. 

  The Braves also have outfielders Damon Hollins and Wonderful Monds in their
minor league system. Both were out with injuries last I heard but if they come
back healthy the need for Justice will diminish that much more. 

  Most likely Justice will end up elsewhere. 

  George 

    Hearing some interesting rumblings about a trade with the Pirates for
    Neagle, maybe involving Avery, (or Justice or both) and a couple of
    minor leaguers.  If Neagle doesn't make his scheduled start tonight
    look for him in a Braves uniform shortly.

    UMDan 

    
    
      Heard the same crap here.  Neagle is a solid LH pitcher Sox want 'em
    along with everybody else.  He'll never clear waivers.

I've heard the Indians are extremely interested in Neagle as well.

I'm sure the Braves are even more interested after he beat Smoltz last
night...

    Isn't interleague trading all done after July 31, regardless of
    waiver status?
    
    With all the talk of Neagle going to the Braves, you can be sure
    that he's already cleared the waivers...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Why do you think Albie Lopez is being show cased?  And yesterday's game
    certainly didn't hurt.

     As was mentioned earlier Neagle has already cleared waivers.

    The trade is rumored to be Jason Schmidt, Class AA 1B Ron Wright and
    Class AAA 3B/SS Robert Smith.  Wright is thought to be the best
    prospect behind Andruw Jones.  If the Braves get Neagle they can dump
    Avery who will be a free agent next year, while retaining Neagle who is
    signed through next year at $3M.

    According to the papers the Pirates are interested in Cleveland players
    Alan Embree and Julian Tavarez.  The O's are offering OF Jeffrey
    Hammonds, RH Jimmy Haynes and $1M.

    Stay tuned.

    UMDan

  Well they did the trade. Here's the way it's been reported in a couple places
now.

  PIT:  Traded P Denny Neagle to ATL for minor league 1B Ron Wright, minor
        league OF Corey Painter, and a PTBNL

  The Braves gave up a lot in Wright but with Fred McGriff at 1st and Klesko
having played 1st in the minors they have that spot covered. 

  Now the Braves, who have the best record in baseball, are even tougher. Looks
like they have about as good shot at a repeat as you can have in baseball. 

  George

>  PIT:  Traded P Denny Neagle to ATL for minor league 1B Ron Wright, minor
>        league OF Corey Painter, and a PTBNL

WHO is Corey Painter?

Sounds like the Pirates just didn't want to pay Neagle what he's worth in the
future...

The Braves biggest problem now is figuring out which three starters to use in
a playoff series.

Parade down Peachtree Street in October.  Richard Jewell as Grand Marshal in
a court settlement before he sues everyone in sight...

    Well San Diego is pretty solid although I don't know about the four
    all-star outfield.  They're set up pretty well for a four dh game world
    series though.  They're getting that pitcher back soon.
    
    Montreal and StLouis would test their defense and execution if either
    get to the playoffs.  No one would want to play Colorado.

    
>>  PIT:  Traded P Denny Neagle to ATL for minor league 1B Ron Wright, minor
>>        league OF Corey Painter, and a PTBNL
>
> WHO is Corey Painter?
>
> Sounds like the Pirates just didn't want to pay Neagle what he's worth in the
> future...
    
    That's part of it, but the trade still might make sense as Pittsburgh
    doesn't figure to seriously contend in the seasons in which Neagle 
    approaches free agency.  Ron Wright is supposedly a legit top
    HR-hitting prospect.
    
    Pittsburgh's been this route before; they parlayed John Smiley into
    Neagle amidst much protest at the time, and that trade worked out 
    very well.  But Neagle is a better pitcher than Smiley ever was, imo.
    
    The bad news is that Jim Leyland is all but gone to the Marlins
    next year...
    
    glenn
      

RE  <<< Note 247.435 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's Baseball And You're An American" >>>

>WHO is Corey Painter?

  Good question. I pulled the Braves minor league stats off the Web about a
month ago and I don't see his name at Richmond, Greenville, Durham or Macon.
Either they got him somewhere else, he was on the DL, or he was in short season
A-ball or the rookie leagues. I think he's an outfielder.

>Sounds like the Pirates just didn't want to pay Neagle what he's worth in the
>future...

  They got a lot in Ron Wright. Word was that he would have gotten a lot more
press if he hadn't been playing in the shadow of Andruw Jones. Big slugging
1st base type.

>The Braves biggest problem now is figuring out which three starters to use in
>a playoff series.

  They can go with a 4 man rotation of Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Neagle. In a
playoff that would have each guy going on 4 days rest. If Avery is available
he could go to the bullpen. Being a hard thrower with a 90mph+ fast ball he
might do OK working an inning at a time in relief. He gets in trouble when he
can't get his curve over the plate. For while I've been thinking he might have
a better future some day as a closer with some other team.

  George

    
    	The Red Sox were talking to Pittsburgh about Neagle. Pittsburgh
    wanted Nomar Garciapara and Carl Pavano, so DD said no thanks.
    
    Ron

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     28-Aug-1996 03:17pm EDT
                                        From:     owner-pirateball
                                                  owner-pirateball@www.pirateball.com@PMDF@INTERNET
                                        Dept:      
                                        Tel No:    

TO:  pirateball                           ( pirateball@pirateball.usaor.net@PMDF@INTERNET )
TO:  pirates                              ( pirates@MAIL.EWORLD.COM@PMDF@INTERNET )
TO:  ALEXANDER                            ( ALEXANDER@PIRATES.unknown@PMDF@INTERNET )
TO:  TKTOFFICE                            ( TKTOFFICE@PIRATES.unknown@PMDF@INTERNET )


Subject: Pirates Trade Neagle                                        


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 28, 1996

PIRATES AND BRAVES MAKE TRADE

     The Pittsburgh Pirates today announced they have traded left-handed 
pitcher Denny Neagle to the Atlanta Braves in exchange for minor leaguers 
Ron Wright, Corey Pointer and a player to be named later.  The announcement 
was made by Cam Bonifay, the Pirates Senior Vice President and General 
Manager.

     Wright, a 20-year-old, right-handed hitting first baseman began the 
1996 season with Durham (A) and batted .275 with 20 home runs and 62 RBI in 
66 games.  He was promoted to Greenville (AA) in late June, and batted .254 
with 16 homers and 52 RBI in 63 games.  In 129 minor league games this year, 
Wright has hit 36 home runs and has driven in 118 runs.  He was Atlanta's 
7th round selection in the 1994 June Free Agent Draft.

     The 20-year-old Pointer began his career as a catcher, but has since 
moved to the outfield. He batted .244 with 15 homers and 41 RBI in 72 
combined games with Macon (A) and Eugene (Rookie) this season.  The 
right-handed hitting Pointer was Atlanta's second round compensation pick in 
the 1994 June Draft, received from the Boston Red Sox for the loss of Otis 
Nixon.

     "The Pittsburgh Pirates are very happy that we could acquire three 
quality prospects for Denny Neagle," said Bonifay.  "We appreciate 
everything that Denny has done for our organization, and losing him will no 
doubt be a tough adjustment.  With these three young players, we will 
continue to look at building a championship caliber club in the future.  The 
Pirates wish Denny all the best with his new club."

     Neagle, who turns 28 on September 13, was acquired from Minnesota along 
with outfielder Midre Cummings on 3/17/92 in a deal for lefthander John 
Smiley.  The 1995 All-Star led the Pirates in victories (13) last year and 
has won a career-best 14 games this season.  In his five years with 
Pittsburgh, Neagle has gone 43-35 with a 4.02 ERA in 187 games (95 starts).


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>>    Pittsburgh's been this route before; they parlayed John Smiley into
>>    Neagle amidst much protest at the time, and that trade worked out 
>>    very well.  But Neagle is a better pitcher than Smiley ever was, imo.
    
    
      Actually the crown jewel of the trade was supposed to be Midre
    Cummings. Neagle was thrown into the deal.
    
    Actually the better  compparison  is in 1987 when the Pirates traded
    all-star catcher Tony Pena to St Louis for Van Slyke, Mike Lavaier
    (sp?) and Mike Dunne. That trade made the Pirates contenders in the
    early 90's.  Hopefully this trade will do the same.  Rumour has it in
    the 'burgh is the PTBNL is currently on the Brave's roster perhaps
    Justice? .
    

>    Actually the crown jewel of the trade was supposed to be Midre
>    Cummings. Neagle was thrown into the deal.
    
    True enough about Cummings, who has not panned out, and whose 
    prospects are fading at last check.  But Neagle was also a 
    highly-regarded pitching prospect already at the AAA level, not
    just a throw-in.  2-for-1 or 3-for-1 is the way to go...
    
    glenn
    

    The PTBNL is probably P Jason Schmidt who is currently on the DL and
    has to be activated prior to being traded.
    
    UMDan

  >>  The PTBNL is probably P Jason Schmidt who is currently on the DL and
  >>  has to be activated prior to being traded.
    
     The announcement said a "position" player which I thought would be a
    non-pitcher. I still think it is Justice.

    I'd seriously doubt it would be Justice. The only reason Neagle was
    traded was that the Bucs owner told the front office to cut salary for
    next year. Neagle has one more year at 3 mil. Unless Justice is a free
    agent at the end of the year and Pittsburgh would want the compensation
    draft picks I don't think it will be Justice.

It's Schmidt, as you all probably know by now.

Steve

  The Magic number for the Braves is down to 14. Although they lost to the Mets
yesterday, the Expos lost as well so the number came down one.

  The Braves have looked a bit ragged of late. Smoltz and Maddux are numbers
one and two in innings pitched so perhaps the starting rotation is a bit tired.
They also have guys they would like to rest but the feeling seems to be to get
the division clinched 1st, then take a bit of a rest.

  According to the announcers of yesterday's game, just about the entire Braves
line up is in a bit of a slump. Javy Lopez just got over a really bad slump
and seems to be hitting the ball well again but with 5 or 6 guys slumping it's
hard to win ball games.

  Oh well, better to get this over with now. With a bit of luck everyone will
start heating up again right around playoff time.

  George

    
    My fedora looks to be fairly safe...
    
    Joe

  Ouch, this hurts. The Braves have only won 2 of their last 10.

  This slump is far too close to playoffs. If they don't get things turned
around pretty quick they will be a long shot to make the N.L.C.S.

  If the Expos weren't playing a little ragged themselves I might be worried
about the division but the magic number has come down to 11 despite the poor
performance by the Braves.

  Next Tuesday after class I'm going down to "Braves Field" to have a chat
with those ghosts.

  BRING BACK WARREN SPAHN!!!
  George

    
> This slump is far too close to playoffs. If they don't get things turned
> around pretty quick they will be a long shot to make the N.L.C.S.
  
    Please... the Braves are still the odds-on favorite to win it all,
    even if this slump continues to the last day of the season.
    
    glenn
    

  Oh yeh, then why are my nails bitten down to the knuckles.

  GO BRAVES!!!!!
  George

    
  >> Oh yeh, then why are my nails bitten down to the knuckles.
    
     Because you don't know how to use a knife and fork?

        Re: The trade

    Do you trade Grissom for Lofton - absolutely.

    Do you trade Justice for Embree - the Braves would (and did).

    I'm not convinced, nor do I believe that the Braves were, that Justice
    "is back" and that he's healed 100%.  As has been said before, it's all
    about numbers.  The money that was freed up may allow the Braves to
    secure long term contracts with both Glavine and Maddux, both of whom
    are more important than anybody just traded.

    Reaction here is mixed, with most people agreeing with the trade.  Both
    players will be missed, especially Grissom, who is a solid citizen on
    and off the field.  I have heard that Lofton spends a lot of
    time with kids and is active in the Cleveland community, so I'm sure
    he'll continue that here.  Everyone is looking forward to his speed on
    the bases and in the field, and most people consider him an all around
    better player than Grissom.

    Justice had his share of supporters and detractors, but in general was
    liked by both his teammates and fans.  He'll be missed, particularly if
    he puts up pre-injury numbers in Cleveland.  On the other hand one bad
    slide or rip of the bat and....

    Interesting that the trade featured three individuals who had prominent
    roles in the '95 WS.  Justice hit the winning HR after ripping the fans
    for their lack of support.  Lofton made everyone in Atlanta bite their
    nails to the quick, hoping that he would not get on base and wind up at
    third on the first Wohlers wild pitch.  Fortunately (for Atlanta) he popped
    up.  Grissom caught a deep fly for the last out.

    The one aspect of the trade that should be interesting is that it will
    force Cox into a different coaching style, one more of a hit and run,
    advance the players type strategy as opposed to the get a 3 run dinger
    type of style.

    There are also strong rumors that this is not the last trade to be made
    this week though no details are available.

    UMDan                                  

    
>    I'm not convinced, nor do I believe that the Braves were, that Justice
>    "is back" and that he's healed 100%.  As has been said before, it's all
>    about numbers.  The money that was freed up may allow the Braves to
>    secure long term contracts with both Glavine and Maddux, both of whom
>    are more important than anybody just traded.
    
    The fact is, you could offer Dave Justice and his remaining $10M-$12M
    in guaranteed in salary all around baseball, and I don't think you'd 
    have many takers.  The salary consideration is very important.  So 
    while the Indians may do okay with this deal, imo they're taking on 
    most all the risk.
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn, how do you figure that the Indians are "taking on most all the
    risk"???  It seems obvious to most people that Lofton will walk at the
    end of the season, and that the Braves won't pursue him for the kind of
    money he'll get from Arizona.  If the Braves don't win it all this
    year, the front office will be under extreme pressure for giving up
    Grissom and Justice for nothing.  
    
    Is one year of Lofton worth it?  That's a major risk, and one the
    Braves are taking.
    
    NAZZ

>    Is one year of Lofton worth it?  That's a major risk, and one the
>    Braves are taking.
    
    I don't see it as a big risk, even assuming (as I am) that Lofton is
    headed for Arizona at the end of this year.  The Braves already wanted 
    Justice and his salary moved at almost any price, period, as they 
    don't even really need him.  They've improved their chances for this 
    season, imo, and they've improved their payroll situation so that they
    can deal with the other more important free agents in 1998.  So what
    did they give up, essentially?  One year of Marquis Grissom in 1998.
    Not too bad.
    
    On the other hand, in a season (1997) where they also have strong hopes 
    to win it all, the Indians are gambling that Grissom isn't too big a
    dropoff from Lofton, and that they get anywhere near their money's 
    worth from two years of Justice.  Then there's the matter of what
    the youngest, most unpredictable quantity in the deal, Embree, could 
    turn into (that's all upside for the Braves-- they just wanted Justice
    gone). 
    
    The deal could be even, or it could even come out slightly in
    Cleveland's favor, but it still seems to me that the big risk, the 
    potential for a crash-and-burn backfire, rests on the Indians' end.
    
    glenn
    

     -.1 seems to be the gist of a lot of the radio folks and fans.  There
    is no guarantee that Lofton will be around or that the Braves will have
    the $ to sign him after this year, and if they don't win the WS and
    don't re-sign him, then why the trade (other than to free up money)?

    While money talks is Lofton prepared to go to a 55 - 110 team next year
    (AZ)?  However, there probably is no shortage of teams willing to pay 8
    - 10 M for a superstar if the Braves can't re-sign him and he doesn't
    want to go to AZ.

    UMDan

  The Braves outfield of the future is Andruw Jones in center and Jermaine Dye
in right. Left field is either Klesko or if they need him at 1st they have
prospects in Wonderful Monds and Damon Hollins. If they don't work out or only
partly work out they can always sign someone to platoon or play full time when
the time comes. 

  As for 1st base if Klesko is needed in left and McGriff leaves Randall Simon
will be coming along. 

  Outfield and 1st base are not problems for the Braves. For the Braves to keep
winning the trick is to resign their core starters and hope they don't get old
too soon. 

  George 

    Embree is 27 and has never showed to be anything more than a
    hard-throwing Tony Fossas.
    
    I agree that from the Braves point of view, re-signing Glavine and
    Maddux is more important than keeping Lofton, and that for one year
    Lofton is a pretty good deal.  So getting rid of Grissom and Justice
    from that point of view makes sense.  But the risk still remains that
    if they do not win it all this year and they do not resign both Maddux
    and Glavine, this trade becomes one-sided.
    
    NAZZ

    
    And people wonder why they're called mediots...
    
    Karl Ravech writes (on ESPNet):
    
    "Lofton's speed gives the Braves about an extra run per game and the
    guy gets on base almost 15 percent more over the course of a season
    than Grissom."
    
    The difference in times on base was far smaller than that in '96;
    Lofton got on base 23 additional times, in about 10 more plate
    appearances.  He has had a bigger edge in the past, but is showing
    a clear trend downward, whereas Grissom's OBP is not so clearly
    deteriorating at this point.
    
    But the other statement - that's just incredible.  Lofton is worth
    162 runs/year _more_ than Grissom?  Now, even crediting Lofton with
    being better defensively (which, I should note, might be a stretch -
    the numbers point to Grissom, particuarly since '93), _and_ tying that
    whole difference to his speed, how in the _world_ is he going to be 
    worth 162 extra runs (or anywhere even remotely close)?  And that's
    supposed to be _ignoring_ his OBP advantage!
    
    On another front - did anyone else notice the unusal stats given
    for Grissom and Lofton (in particular) yesterday in the Globe?
    
    In the WS, Lofton had 1 HR, and 0 RBI.  This was my first clue
    something was up.
    
    In '92, Grissom managed an even more impressive feat - 33 HR,
    and only _6_ RBI.  Not bad, huh?
    
    Of course, he's also averaged about 30 HR/year for the past 5 years...
    
    Joe

    
>    On another front - did anyone else notice the unusal stats given
>    for Grissom and Lofton (in particular) yesterday in the Globe?
>
>    In '92, Grissom managed an even more impressive feat - 33 HR,
>    and only _6_ RBI.  Not bad, huh?
    
    Speculation was that they substituted doubles for HRs for Lofton
    and Grissom (but not Justice), but I don't think even that matched 
    up exactly.  Not to mention that in Grissom's case, the real HR 
    numbers are more interesting anyway.
    
    The Glob is notoriously bad with stats, and should never be trusted
    as a reference.  A while back Bob Ryan went on and on in a column 
    about Tim Wakefield's "very respectable" 4.15 ERA in 1996, with 
    accompanying stat box, when the correct, decidedly more mediocre 
    number was actually 5.14.  They've got dyslexic typesetters down 
    there or something...
    
    glenn
    

  With regard to the Globe, the guys doing the box scores and tables of stats
seem to do a better job than the columnists.

  Again remember, sports columnists are guys who are experts at knowing what
sports fans want to see and read. If they are experts on the sport they cover,
well so much the better but if not no editor is going to lose any sleep over
it.

  After all, they've got a business to run,
  George

    It's the tables, precisely that we're talking about and this one was
    terrible.  Columnists I agree should never be trusted about facts never
    mind the rest of the content.
    
    Maybe it was someone's first trip around the block with excel and got a
    couple of columns mixed up.
    
    The other glov thing is the daily invective against Duquette using
    everyone's favorite caiman-maven, Gumball Gimbel.  Cafardo sub Eddes
    seems to be hot on that trail.

    >>The other glov thing is the daily invective against Duquette using
    >>everyone's favorite caiman-maven, Gumball Gimbel.  Cafardo sub Eddes
    >>seems to be hot on that trail.
    
    Picked the wrong day to leave the decoder ring at home...
    
    UMDan
    

    Yeah, no kiddin', eh?  

    I was wondering the same, but I hate to pick on other
    "gray-haired blubbering idiots" too much.
    
    
    billl

    You're different, Billl.  You don't blubber.

    thanks, I think.
    
    
    billl

    Gumball Gimbel is a stat man hired by Duquette.  He keeps pet
    alligators in his Brooklyn apartment.  Caimans to be exact.
    
    Cafardo of the Glove (Boston Globe) covered the Redsox but (was)
    switched to football.  Possibly because of his invective against Dan
    Duquette.
    
    Gordon Eddes has taken Cafardo's place and started the Gimbel business.
    
    Got it?

    
    Billte, it would help the out-of-town folks a lot if you'd (tm)
    "Glove".  Putting initial capitalization on it might help, too.
    
    HTH...
    

 I understood him perfectly. scary isn't it?  

 ;^)

|
| I understood him perfectly. scary isn't it?  
|
| ;^)


Yeah, but then again, you've seen Moltie and the Barbarians....8^)

    Roland, in reality I just hit the 'v' instead of the 'b' and leave it.
    
    Dan that's "Glove" as in Bloody Glove.  Our local rag wins all sorts of
    awards for sports coverage but we see it slightly different around 
    here.

  As long as you stay away from the columns it's not that bad.

  Of course that's probably true for other papers as well. The way I look
at it, the regular articles are for news, the columns are for entertainment,
sort of like the funnies.

  As long as you think of it that way you keep things in perspective.

  George

    Braves traded Jermaine Dye and P Jamie Walker to KC for OF Michael
    Tucker and Infielder Keith Lockhart.  
    
    UMDan

    
    Why?  Dye is better than Tucker, and Lockhart is virtually worthless.

    Dunno, just saw it on the (Internet) wire.

    Is Lockhart better than Blauser?  This is a strange one indeed, as Dye
    was supposed to be part of their future.  

    Looks like Klesko stays in left and McGriff at first, unless there is
    another big deal coming down that involves McGriff and Blauser. 
    McGriff to reduce the payroll and move Klesko to first, Blauser to
    reduce the payroll and basically get rid of him (not many teams
    interested in him at his salary).

    The call in shows will be humming!


    UMDan

  Yuck what a terrible trade. Hope that's not real.

  With Dye you have a 1st rate right fielder who can play there every day.
Maybe a future all-star. One of the best arms in the league. Tucker is strictly
left field. And since he bats left he can't platoon with Klesko. 

  This makes no sense at all, not one of those 3 guys is in the same league
with Dye.

  George

                                                        
    Michael Tucker was at one time considered a phe-nom talent as a 
    lefthanded hitter.  I believe he started at SS in the minors, even.
    
    Maybe the Braves haven't given up on that curse of potential...
    
    
    glenn
    

  This in from WW.CNN.COM

  BASEBALL CITY, Florida (AP) --  Two days after a major trade that reshaped
their outfield and payroll, the Atlanta Braves sent outfielder Jermaine Dye and
pitcher Jamie Walker to the Kansas City Royals Thursday for outfielder Michael
Tucker and infielder Keith Lockhart. 

  The Royals announced the trade during an afternoon game against the Cleveland
Indians, who just received Marquis Grissom and David Justice from the Braves in
a deal involving Kenny Lofton on Tuesday. 

  Tucker started in right field for the Royals and was taken out after the
third inning. 

  Atlanta saved a total of $7.714 million in its trade with Cleveland, which
allows them to try to sign potential free-agent pitchers Greg Maddux and Tom
Glavine. This trade involving all low-priced players increases the team's
payroll a marginal $215,000 and its luxury tax $325,000. 

  Dye, 23, batted .281 with 12 homers and 37 RBIs last season filling in for
Justice, who missed most of the season with a shoulder injury. Atlanta's trade
of two-thirds of its outfield to Cleveland appeared to make room for Dye and
another talented youngster, Andruw Jones. 

  The Braves acquired Walker, a 25-year-old left-hander, from Houston in the
Rule 5 draft in September. He was 5-1 with a 2.50 ERA at Double-A Jackson last
year. 

  Tucker, 25, batted .260 with four homers in 62 games for the Royals last
season. Lockhart, 32, hit .321 with six homers in 94 games. 

  Here's what the "Scouting Report Note Book:1997 from STATS Inc says about
his defense and base running.

  "Despite above average speed, Tucker isn't a good baserunner; he continues to
run into outs on the basepaths. He also doesn't make use of that speed in the
outfield, often getting slow jumps on fly balls. His weak arm is best suited
for left field. Manager Bob Boone gave Tucker some time at first base, where
his inexperience showed, but he wasn't a bad first baseman."

  There must be a McGriff trade looming on the horizon. Otherwise the Braves
now have three 1B/LF types in Klesko, Tucker, and McGriff. 

  They must be dancing in the streets in K.C. What a terrible trade.

  George

    
    George,
    
    The trade's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.  Tucker
    has similar power, and gets on base _far_ more often - Dye does not
    seem to believe in taking a walk.  He is older, but he hasn't turned 27
    yet.
    
    Not that I'd necessarily make the deal, but in terms of the next couple
    of years, I'd rather have Tucker.
    
    Joe

  What good's a guy who gets on base if he tends to run himself into outs all
the time? Remember they don't have Jimy Williams coaching 3rd any more. 

  With Dye and Andew Jones you could play which ever one was hot every day and
platoon the other with Klesko. At least that's what they did last year. Then if
anyone goes down they have every position covered with a quality player.

  Now they have to hope Lofton and Andruw Jones can play center and right every
day or they end up with Danny Bautista or one of the rookies as a starter. And
where does this leave Klesko? 

  There must be another trade coming along. Either Tucker or Klesko must be
penciled in for playing 1st base every day. Again no platoon makes sense since
Tucker, Klesko and McGriff all hit from the left.

  I don't know, to me this looks like a move the 39 computer munks in San Diago
would make. You know it was K.C. that announced it, maybe before they took the
plunge the monks hacked into K.C.'s computer system and convinced them that
they were the Braves and wanted to give away Jermaine Dye for three beans and
a cow.

  George

>  What good's a guy who gets on base if he tends to run himself into outs all
>the time? Remember they don't have Jimy Williams coaching 3rd any more. 
    
    That's a correctable problem.
    
    While he wouldn't be my first choice, I wouldn't mind having Tucker
    as a starter for me...
    
    Joe

  I wouldn't mind Tucker as a starter either under most circumstances but if I
already have left handed left batters in left and 1st who are capable starters
there's no platoon that makes sense. 

  There's got to be another trade in the works, one that's a done deal except
for some i's or t's that need dotting or crossed. McGriff and someone
an AL team for a 1st rate short stop and something maybe.

  McGriff and Tony Graffanino to the Red Sox for John Valintin and something?
Mo could move to DH where he belongs.

  George

    
    WHY would the Sox want Tony G.?  He doesn't give them anything they
    don't already have in Jeff Frye.

    
> McGriff and Tony Graffanino to the Red Sox for John Valintin and something?
> Mo could move to DH where he belongs.
    
    The Sox aren't going to tick Mo off any more than he already is.  And
    they still need a decent OF about ten times more than any 1B/DH...
    
    glenn
    

    How many good lefthanded pitchers are in the National League and how
    often will the Braves be facing something like what Seattle and
    (formerly) the Yankees would throw?  I say this because it looks like
    the Braves now have a set outfield of Klesko,Lofton and Jones with
    Tucker as backup and McGriff now full time at first.  Agreed that
    they're stacked on the right side.
    
    I'd say they were done but their contenders will now want to stock up
    on lefties.

  Why trade Jermaine Dye for a backup? That makes no sense.

  They must feel Tucker is worth playing every day. There's got to be a
McGriff trade in the works.

  George

    No, they traded a guy who would be a backup for the Braves for two
    backup players which ostensibly provides depth.  A good question is
    whether Cox entirely approves.  With Dye on the team he has the
    decision to bench either Klesko or Jones to play him.  No decision now.

  There is a position between starter and backup/bench/pinch-hitter which
results from a platoon. Last year Dye was in a platoon with Klesko at the end
of the season.

  Now it wasn't a simple platoon at one position. When they needed the extra
right handed batter Dye played right field and Andruw Jones played left field.
When they needed the lefty Klesko played left field and Andruw Jones moved over
to right. However it was a platoon in that Dye or Klesko played depending on
who was pitching with Andruw Jones moving around so the Platoon guy would fit.

  Now there is no platoon option. It's Lofton in center and Andruw Jones in
right every day with three lefties, Klesko, Tucker, and McGriff fighting for
left field and 1st base.

  There's got to be another trade in the works. It's the only way this makes
sense.

  George