Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    Depends on the criteria involved.  Sounded like most of the people on
    the list were in the last 10 years.
    
    My top 10 (subject to debate, no particular order)
    
    Ali
    Curt Flood  (especially given today's expected announcement)
    Billie Jean King
    Joe Namath
    Bird/Magic
    Jordan
    Mickey Mantle
    Willie Mays
    Wayne Gretzky
    John Wooden
    
    second 10 includes
    
    Jack Nicklaus
    Palmer
    Russell
    Wilt
    Lombardi
    Chris Evert
    Arthur Ashe
    Jimmy Connors
    Montana
    1980 US Olympic Hockey team

    	Greg Lemond

    Eh, here's the second 20
    Vasily Alexeev
    Jim Brown (should be moved up)
    Gordie Howe
    OJ Simpson
    Nolan Ryan
    
    Tommy Smith/John Carlos
    Martina Navratilova (probably moved up too)
    Joan Benoit
    Edwin Moses
    Julius Erving
    
    Ken Dryden
    Willie Shoemaker
    Greg Lemond
    Alexander Belov
    Bobby Fischer
    
    Reggie Jackson
    Roger Bannister
    Jackie Joyner-Kersee
    Dan Gable
    Joe Greene

    
    
    Bobby Fischer?   I didn't know Chess was a sport?  :-)
    
    
    
    Chappy

  How about Joe Cronin? He was influential on several levels. Same with Connie
Mack. And Jessie Owens shook up the world a bit back in 1936. So much for white
supremacy. 

  Babe Ruth was probably the most influential player in baseball. He came along
at a time when baseball was in real trouble. Fans were really turned off by
the Black Sox scandal and were skeptical about the integrity of the game. Ruth
provided a type of excitement that rose above that and turned the game into
what it is today. Or I should say what it was going into the strike. 

  George 

    List is for the last 40 years...
    

    	I would be surprised to see Russell make the list.  He was a
    black player in the late 50's early 60's who told society's racists
    to kiss his butt.  Many of the old time sportswriters still hate
    his guts which is why you still see articles that claim it was a
    "myth" that Russell was better than Chamberlain when it really counted.
    
    				   /Don

    From your list
    
    Ali				Me
    Curt Flood  (especially given today's expected announcement)  Or McNally
    Billie Jean King		5
    Joe Namath			10
    Bird/Magic			3
    Jordan			15
    Mickey Mantle		20
    Willie Mays			after Aaron who sb in 6
    Wayne Gretzky		9
    John Wooden			?  Sort of an insiders choice.  For all the
    					WRONG reasons Smitty probably had
    					the greater impact(stalling,flopping
    					intricate recruiting rules - admin >
    					tech skills)
    Johnny Unitas would be in top 10 and #1 for football because 1958 game
    put pro football on the map; Brown was merely top athlete of his time
    (with Russell and Mays).
    
    Roger Bannister should have been seriously considered for top 15 as he
    put Sports Illustrated on the map.  Also, I agree with SI's selection
    of Secretariat.  Another that I would mention is Doc Councilman of
    Indiana swimming who changed this sport.
    
    
    Palmer,Russell Lombardi in top 7; Wilma Rudolph perhaps in top 10
    
    second 10 includes
    
    Jack Nicklaus
    Palmer
    Russell
    Wilt
    Lombardi
    Chris Evert
    Arthur Ashe		He would be my other tennis pick
    Jimmy Connors
    Montana		yep
    1980 US Olympic Hockey team
    
    Bobby Fischer belongs in top 25 but I'll drop chess if everyone agrees
    to disinclude figure skaters (Tonya?)
    
    Sports Illustrated seems to be taking influence (Mark McCormack) and
    notoriety into great account.  One figure who was the center of much
    national interest was Boston's John Thomas who dominated the high jump
    (pre-flop) and then lost to two Russians in Rome in 1960.  Perhaps that
    wasn't two inch headlines in Denver but it was around here.

RE            <<< Note 183.9 by 25022::BREEN "It IS necessarily so" >>>

>    Bobby Fischer belongs in top 25 but I'll drop chess if everyone agrees
>    to disinclude figure skaters (Tonya?)
    
  Not a chance. Peggy Flemming is definitely in my top 25.

  After the plane crash in 1960 that wiped out the entire U.S. figure skating
team people were saying it would take more than a decade for the U.S. to
rebuild but she finished in the top 10 in 1964 and blew away the competition in
the 1968 Winter Olympics.

  She had a lead coming out of school figures, built it up with her short
program and won the long program going away with perfect 6.0s for artistic
impression. Flemming had a lot to do with the Winter Olympics becoming a major
TV sport and ranked right up there as one of the baby boomer icons. 

RE 40 years.

  Hmmm, 40 years. I guess that rules out Chicago pitcher Al Spalding who really
tore up the National League back in the mid 1870's. He and his brother also had
some luck selling sports equipment. Someone once said that he was pitching
during Custer's last stand but I don't think he was. I believe he pitched the
day before and a couple days after. 

  Ali is near the top of my list. He brought boxing back from near death and
for a while it was actually a popular sport. I'd put Jack Nicklaus ahead of
Arnie. For years Jack dominated a game that's almost impossible to dominate
even for a short time winning something like twenty major championships. Next
guy on that list is somewhere down around eight.

  George

    The Arnold Palmer - Jack Nicklaus rating would typify what SI is doing
    with this list.
    
    Palmer had the greater impact or influence, perhaps the most of anyone
    but Nicklaus was the greater golfer.
    
    And, George if you promise not to tell anyone, Peggy Fleming was on my
    short list too.

    I think Marilyn Monroe should be in the top 5.  

    What, no K.C. Jones?  You gotta be kidding me.  Surely he should
    replace Magic in the Bird/Magic pairing! 
    
    Ken

    While I agree that Gretzky has the best instincts I have seen demonstrated 
    in any of the "flow-type" games (hockey, basketball, soccer) and 
    unbelievable peripheral vision, I think Bobby Orr was a more complete 
    and influential player by virtue of his position as a defenseman.

    Clark

    You won't get much argument from these parts, especially from those who
    saw Orr and again especially the pre-bad knees Orr.
    
    When SI puts Mark McCormack in its top 40 (top 15?) I guess they want
    you to buy the magazine to figure out what their criteria is.  Gretzky
    is probably the most famous hockey player of the 40 years if "famous"
    is defined by stopping a rap-mouthing, cleft-headed young individual
    and asking them to "name a hockey player!"
    
    I read McCormack's Palmer book (some not all; had to stop) and it was
    about the worst of the genre ever printed - haven't thrown it out yet,
    available to the first fool who wants it

    	One wonders if OJ would have been chosen had he not been
    	implicated in his ex-wife's death.
    
    	I told my daughter last night, Lemond has to be on this list.
    	Number 38.
    
    	Scott

Re.

 > One wonders if OJ would have been chosen had he not been
 > implicated in his ex-wife's death.
   
I think rushing for 2,000 yards in a season might have had something
to do with it.

Ken 

  O.J. was the greatest running back of all time. Jimmy Brown was great but he
always had a good offensive line and Dr Frank Ryan at QB to keep the line
backers honest. O.J. did it with some really terrible teams. 

  He also ranks high with his promotion of the sport (the Arnie/Babe factor).
He created a lot of excitement, even when he was up in Buffalo, which had
a major impact on the game.

  George

I agree that OJ would have been higher, were it not for 
the recent developments.  He was a great natural 
running back on a par with Jim Brown.  Brown was more of
a trail blazer for the league and his race.

Of course the most gifted of them all was Gayle Sayers,
who was number {mumble-mumble}, down the list because of
his short career.

=Bob=

    Jimmy Brown was the more dominant runner and had less need of a great
    offensive line (his was excellent, so was buffalo's).
    
    He transcended the skill level seen up to that time with his
    combination of power and speed.
    
    There are combinations of power and speed today (a certain ex-raider
    now cal. angel comes to mind) but in 1957 he was Ruthian.

Brown's the Main Main.

To appreciate his performances, you really need to look at his per game
stats. Brown played in a_era with 12 games per season. Now we have 16
games. 

Also, in regard to the "no good defenses" during Brown's career, one
might refer to the discussion a little while back over in the Giants
topic. Now tell me there weren't good defenses.

TTom

    I'm a sicky today, and just got the mail.  My SI with the top 40 just
    arrived.  From their list:
    
    1	Ali (Whom else?)
    2	Michael Jordan
    3	Roone Arledge
    4	Jim Brown
    5	Billie Jean King
    6	Pete Rose
    7 	Marvin Miller
    8	Bird & Magic
    9	Arnold Palmer
    10	Mark McCormack
    11	Carl Lewis
    12	Wayne Gretzky
    13	Pete Rozelle
    14	Martina Navratilova
    15	Hank Aaron
    16	John Wooden
    17	Secretariat
    18	Joe Namath
    19	Dr. Harold Gores (Inventor of Astroturf)
    20	Jack Nicklaus
    21	Bill Russell 
    22	Howard Cosell
    23	Joe Montana
    24	Paul Bear Bryant
    25	Roberto Clemente
    26	Olga Korbut
    27	Arthur Ashe
    28	Richard Petty
    29	Bill Rasmussen (Founder of ESPN)
    30	Pele'
    31	Bobby Orr (He got robbed! shoulda been much higher)
    32	Sugar Ray Leonard
    33	Jim Fixx
    34	Nolan Ryan
    35	Peggy Fleming
    36	Don King
    37	Dr. Robert Jackson (Brought arthoscopic surgury from Japan to North
    			    America)
    38	Greg Lemond
    39	Gary Davidson (Founder of ABA, WHL, and WFL)
    40	Julius Erving
    
    
    	I find it interesting to note how many people made the list that
    made money from the game but didn't play.  Especially the number of 
    them.  I'm also very surprised that Wilt Chamberlain didn't
    make the list.
    
    t

>>    36	Don King

	Just goes to show you that not all infulence is positive!


	billl

    
    
    
    	I can't beleive they put a HORSE on the list!!!
    
    	Nexted thing you know Mr. Ed will be listed as one
    of the most influencial figures in Hollywood history!!!
    
    JimH
    

    
    
    With painfully few exceptions (Pele, #30!!) this is purely a North
    American listing.
    
    Where are the Russian hockey players (Tretiak)? Why not George Best
    in soccer instead of Joe Namath? Same type of individuals with similar
    effects on their respective sports.
    
    

RE           <<< Note 183.21 by HBAHBA::HAAS "Sorry, wrong species." >>>

>Also, in regard to the "no good defenses" during Brown's career, one
>might refer to the discussion a little while back over in the Giants
>topic. Now tell me there weren't good defenses.

  I think it's more a case of the Browns having a good offense. Jimmy Brown
had a great quarterback in Frank Ryan, who in turn had great receivers. They
also had a really good offensive line. I remember the last few years there
was a half back named Green or Greene, I forget which, who also got a lot
of yardage. That was one tough offensive unit with or without Brown.

  By contrast, what kind of team did O.J. have around him? They were somewhere
between terrible and bad yet he still ran pretty much were he wanted when
he wanted.

  O.J. was definitely better than Brown,
  George

  Why does Billie Jean King rate so much higher than Martina Navratilova with
Chris Everett and Graf not even on the list. They each dominated their own time
period and of the 4 it would seem that Navratilova kept it going the longest.

  Was that match with Bobby Riggs really that big?

  George

RE                <<< Note 183.25 by TOOK::HALPIN "Jim Halpin" >>>
    
>    	I can't beleive they put a HORSE on the list!!!
    
  Each year SI names a sportsman of the year. Is this a list of those winners
or is it suppose to be the 40 most influential over the 40 year time period? 

  There's a big difference. For example, if during a 40 year period you have a
number of top contenders competing at the same time one of them might get left
out and someone not as good might make it during an off year when no one really
great was competing.

  In any case, if this is a list of the 40 end of the year winners than that
would explain the horse. The year that Secretariat won the triple crown he
was named SI sportsman [sic] of the year. 

  George 

    I haven't read the article yet, but how can Secretariat be on that
    list and not Flipper.
    
    Jimbo

	And don't forget Lassie and Rin Tin Tin!



	billl for REK

    
      OJ was *definitely* better than Jim Brown? No way. OJ
     was fortunate enough to play against some pretty awful
     AFC and specifically AFC East teams and to play for six-
     teen games a season. We in New England were fortunate(?) 
     enough to see him log 200 yard game after 200 yard game 
     against the Pats including a 253 yard effort that is still 
     the record. Those Pats teams  stunk. OJ was fast and could 
     cut. Jim Brown was fast and  could cut and could bowl people 
     right over. OJ was the best of my generation, Jim Brown was 
     the best ever.

  The Pats were not the only team in the division. Miami and Baltimore had
some pretty tough clubs back then. And he also played against other teams
in the conference like Pittsburgh.

  I remember one pro bowl game where he and Franco Harris were the two starting
running backs. They ran where ever they wanted when ever they wanted and the
NFC pro bowl defense could hardly lay a finger on them.
  
  George

    
      You're talking about a Pro Bowl game behind a Pro Bowl offense. 
     During the regular season he got to run roughshod over the stanky,
     Pats, the just as stanky Jets and a declining Baltimore team. Not
     to say OJ wasn't great because he was but it's Jim Brown then OJ
     and Walter Payton and then another larger group.

    I can't believe there was no mention of #4  Bobby Orr,he changed the 
    way the game was played!!!!
    
                          JC

  And there were no bad teams in Brown's day? As I recall the Eagles and
Stealers were generally a joke and the Cardinals and Redskins rarely put up much
of a fight. About the only tough team he played was the Giants.

  Also, the longer season worked against O.J. more than in his favor since he
got beat up more than Brown did. O.J. always played a 14 or 16 game season but
Brown only played a 12 game season and one playoff game. They usually didn't
make it to the final. That's 2-3 less poundings a year for Brown.

  And of course there's always the point that training methods and talent
pools generally improve with time which means that the guys O.J. played against
were probably bigger, stronger, and faster than the guys Brown played against. 

  George 

Bobby Orr was on the list -- mid 20s I believe....


I personally think Jim Brown was a better runner, period.   I also think
that Walter Payton and Gale Sayers were better than OJ.....


JMHO,
'Saw

    	The year OJ ran for 2,000 yards, 500 of them came against the
    woeful Pats.  That's 25% of his season total!
    
    				   /Don

  And when Brown got his yards, how many came against the woeful Eagles or
Steelers? 

  Many of the high individual scores recorded by athletes over the years have
come against other weak teams or players. What makes a difference is that O.J.
got his yards with almost no support while Brown did his running behind a 1st
rate offensive line against a defense that always had to worry about Frank Ryan
connecting with a number of 1st rate receivers.

  I'm trying to think of the names. Wasn't Paul Warfield a receiver for the
Browns back then?

  George

    I'd swap Fischer with Richard Petty. He should have been in there. 
    Pele too.  I wasn't old enough to experience Flemming's impact.
    
    
    I put Namath in because if the Jets lose that Super Bowl, the chance of
    a merger with the AFL goes way down.  The Jets' win made the AFL legit.

  For Race Car drivers A.J. Foyt might be up there ahead of Richard Petty.
Petty was pretty much limited to NASCAR but Foyt drove just about everything
and I believe he has the record for most Indy wins.

  Then of course there was Formula I driver Jimmy Clark who was probably the
greatest driver that ever lived.

  I'm curious about the question I asked before, is the SI list just a list
of the 40 yearly winners or is it suppose to be the 40 best regardless if
they were ever named SI sportsman of the year?

  George

    
      George, Brown didn't get to play the Eagles and Steelers
     twice a year. I remember the two games where OJ chalked
     up over 500 yards rushing total. As a Pats fan it was em-
     barassing and not because OJ was a great runner but because 
     we stunk. OJ didn't come along far enough after Brown for there
     to be a huge difference in the size and speed of the defenders.
     If Brown hadn't retired, their two eras could have overlapped.
     OJ just got to play against a more diluted talent pool. And 
     when teams prepped for the Browns the one goal was to stop
     Brown not Frank Ryan. I'm sure Huber or Groaner or even Hal
     could elaborate more on Brown's greatness but I got to see
     OJ twice a year and he was a great one but he didn't do it
     alone and he did some of it against pretty mediocre comp over
     a 16 game schedule.

    Well maybe im biased because I didnt get to see any live action games
    of brown or oj but you also have to remeber this little unknow unliked
    Running back by the name of Eric Dickerson.  Many people talk about Jim
    brown getting his yrds in a 12 game season etc but even the great Jim
    Brown took 98 games to reach 10,000 yrds, Dickerson did it in 91.
    
    Dickerson would have surpased/broke all the rushing records had he not
    went after the big bucks in Indy.  I think peopel are right Indy cursed
    themselves when they moved.  They didnt accomplish anything with Eric,
    and then Drafted Jeff George, again did squat.  Judging by this track
    record Faulk is in for some trouble times.
    
    I dont know how many years Payton ran but Dickerson retired with 13,259
    yrds in 11 years, not too shabby... He rushed for 7 consecutive 1000
    yrd seasons, and I beleive still holds the single season rushing record
    with 2100 ?  Not sure if his record for 12 100yrad games in a season
    was tied or broken recently....
    
    Many people didnt like him, but when you talk about the greatest RB of
    all time I think Dickerson (Being #2 alltime) has to be considered in
    there with the best of them...
    
    								mab

What about Knute Rockne. Please has to be in the top 10. Reinvented football as we
know it today.... 



Mike

        <<< Note 183.42 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>And 
>     when teams prepped for the Browns the one goal was to stop
>     Brown not Frank Ryan. 

  No this is not right. Frank Ryan was 1st rate quarterback and the Browns
passing attack was not something that a team could just ignore.

  The Browns were able to run over just about every team in the NFL because
they attacked from all directions. About the only team in the Eastern
Conference that could beat them was the Giants and that was because the Giants
had the best defense in the league and an offense that was almost as good. 

  How did it go, something like:

  Eastern Conference    Western Conference
  ------------------    ------------------    
    Giants              Packers
    Browns              Colts
    Steelers            Rams
    Eagles              '49ers
    Redskins            Cowboys
    Cardinals           Vikings
    Lions               Bears

  They were divided into 2 divisions each but I forget how that worked.

  They played 12 games. So what was it, each team in your division twice?
I forget. But in any case the bottom line was that Jimmy Brown played against
the Giants and a lot of weak teams because the Packers, Colts, and Bears were
in the other conference. 

  George

    During the 50s the two major networks, cbs and nbc carried the giants
    and the browns on sunday.  New England consisted of mostly Giant fans
    but some stubborn Brown fans too (usually ex Boston Braves
    contrarians).  Of course the Browns were the perennial champs of the
    first half decade.
    
    I rarely watched the Browns whose quarterback by the way was Milt Plum,
    the prototypical browns quaterback (stats but can't do it in the big
    games).
    
    Jimmy Brown dominated the way an overgrown, stayed back a few years
    kid, often dominates playground games in grammar school.  The Giants
    stopped him by making Plum beat them and Brown the coach not being able
    to adapt to their tactics.
    
    But nothing in all of sports in the 40 years SI talks about tops those
    big Browns - Giants games from 56-63 including one or two playoff
    games.

      Swap Lions and Cowboys and you're all set!
    
      Kudos to Dickerson.  The guy was amazing.
    
      Its hard not to say Brown was CLEARLY the best.  5.1 yards/carry
      over a CAREER.
    
      By the way, Bo Jackson's yard/carry his last year was something
      ridiculous like 5.8.  (Unreal.)
    
                                                  Tony

    
      Thank you, Bill. George's assertion that teams prepped for
     the Browns QB and not the great Jim Brown is ridiculous beyond
     compare. 

RE        <<< Note 183.48 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>      Thank you, Bill. George's assertion that teams prepped for
>     the Browns QB and not the great Jim Brown is ridiculous beyond
>     compare. 

  Tommy your a riot. I take your plea for someone to argue your point as an
admission on your part that you have no clue as to what you are talking about. 

  I watched those games as well, I saw Frank Ryan play, and you'll notice that
no one will touch my point that the Giants were the Browns only competition.
The way you guys are talking it's as if the Browns played the Giants 12 times a
year. They didn't, they played those other teams who were for the most part
pathetic.

  Brown played against cream puff defenses just about every week,
  George

  I sure am glad to see "The Great One", Roberto Clemente, included in
  SI's list. Still have his poster hanging on my wall.

	Keith

    George,
    	Ryan came along after Plum and for the most part those years in
    which the Giants fell back in the pack and the Cowboys and Browns
    contested.
    
    	I would not push Jimmy Browns greatness on his mid 60s career.  His
    dominance was '57-63 and he was at his peak the day he stepped on an
    nfl field.  In fact his most memorable game was the '57 sugar bowl
    where he simply ran amok.
    
     	I think the Browns actually won the nfl championship over the colts
    in the only pre merger final lacking giants or pack from 58-66.  You
    probably did see a more balanced attack and a less dominant Brown, sort
    of the OJ of the late 70s.  He was about ready to retire, still a great
    athlete but not what Tommy and I are talking about.

    >> Tommy your a riot. I take your plea for someone to argue your 
    >> point as an admission on your part 

       Nope, George. No admission of anything just kudos to Bill for
       injecting some truths into the discussion. In reality, OJ wasn't
       all that much better than Tony Dorsett or even Emmitt Smith and
       Barry Sanders. Brown, on the other hand, was a player on the order
       of a Lawrence Taylor in the way he could force the opposition to
       revolve its game plan around him and still not stop him. But I 
       take your position as being on a par with your complaints about
       parking during BC games.
    

RE        <<< Note 183.52 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>       Nope, George. No admission of anything just kudos to Bill for
>       injecting some truths into the discussion. 

  Tommy, do you or do you not know what you are talking about? If you do,
why do you have to rely on someone else to make your point? Why not just
admit that you don't know all that much about this topic and are basically
rooting against me in this debate.

  George

 Count me in with Billthe and Tommy. Brown was simply the most magnificent
 back to ever play the game. Forget your creampuff teams etc cause both
 camps have them. Forget the 12 games vs 16 games argument. Alls I know
 is that no one man ever tackled Brown. It took half the team to get him
 down. You could contain him for 45 mintues and the last 3 minutes he's
 break off 2 80 yards sweeps to break your heart. He also punished
 defenders for tackling him. Moves, speed, power, brains and a joe cool
 attitude, he had it all........

 mike

RE                       <<< Note 183.51 by 25022::BREEN >>>

>    	I would not push Jimmy Browns greatness on his mid 60s career.  His
>    dominance was '57-63 and he was at his peak the day he stepped on an
>    nfl field.  In fact his most memorable game was the '57 sugar bowl
>    where he simply ran amok.
    
  Ok, but the question still remains, who was his competition? I know from
watching the games of the early '60s that the Giants and Browns were the only
strong teams in the conference. I said "Eastern/Western" yesterday and it may
have been "American/National" but the point still remains, during the early 60s
that conference was the Giants, Browns, and a bunch of weak teams. 

  And from what I remember from looking at the record books the late 50s was
all Giants and Browns as well.

  Besides the Giants, who did Brown play against that was all that great? Ok,
the Sugar Bowl, lots of guys have one great game, but besides the Giants what
NFL defense did Brown face that was all that tough? The Packers, Colts, Bears,
and Vikings were in the other Conference.

  George

RE     <<< Note 183.54 by CNTROL::CHILDS "Everybody knows this is Nowhere" >>>

>Alls I know
> is that no one man ever tackled Brown. It took half the team to get him
> down.

  Tell that to Giants center line backer Sam Huff. The word was that if he felt
Brown was going to reverse his direction he'd deliberately send the rest of his
team the other way so he could take him one on one. That probably an
exaduration but he definitely held his own against Brown. 

  And then there was one time that Brown broke free in the back field with the
announcers yelling "no one can stop him now" and suddenly down he went with no
one in sight. When he got up there underneath him was the number 20 and the
flattened out form of Jimmy Patton, the giants weak side safety. 

  Those Giants/Browns games were among the greatest matchups of all time.

  George

    Didn't anybody else do their own list?  I'm sure most of ours are
    better than whatever SI could come up with!
    
    Remember the criteria:  most infulential over the past 40 years.
    
    1) Muhammad Ali - an obvious pick
    2) ESPN - they've changed the life of every sports fan for the better
    3) Magic Johnson - won everywhere, an ambassador for the game
    4) Marvin Miller - changed baseball forever
    5) Michael Jordan - maybe the best who ever played
    6) Carl Lewis - greatest, most versatile track man ever
    7) Larry Bird - helped raise pro basketball to unheard of level
    8) Jim Brown - best running back ever; left at height of his skills
    9) Bill Russell - consummate winner; made defense fashionable
    10) Hank Aaron - battled racism as well as Babe Ruth
    11) Red Auerbach - won more titles than any pro basketball coach
    12) John Wooden - won more titles than any college basketball coach
    13) Joe Namath - his guaranteed victory legitimized the AFL
    14) 1980 US Olympic Hockey Team - "Do you believe in miracles?  YES!"
    15) Roberto Clemente - humanitarian and superstar
    16) Billie Jean King - made women's tennis acceptable to the masses
    17) Bob Cousy - was Magic before Magic ever played a game
    18) Arthur Ashe - class personified, opened up his sport to minorities
    19) David Stern - made basketball marketbale around the world
    20) Pete Rozelle - brought pro football incredible strength
    21) Bobby Orr - only bad knees prevented him from immortality
    22) Al Davis - "Just win, baby" became an All-American phrase
    23) Ozzie SMith - reinvented the shortstop position
    24) Rollie Fingers - the father of modern relief pitching
    25) Dick Butkus - made middle linebacker the position we all loved
    26) Lawrence Taylor - the best ever at what he did
    27) Julius Erving - excitement, style, and above all, class
    28) Jackie Joyner-Kersee - best at what she does, and for a long time
    29) Martina Navratilova - perserverence allowed public acceptance
    30) Joe Montana - best quarterback ever
    31) Johnny Unitas - previous best quarterback ever
    32) Dick Fosbury - invented the modern high-jump technique
    33) Willie Mays - made center field the glamour position in baseball
    34) Wayne Gretsky - not called "the Great One" for nothing
    35) Pele - showed the US what soccer was about 
    36) Arnold Palmer - turned the US into a golf-crazy nation
    37) Nolan Ryan - fastballs forever
    38) Sergei Bubka - Mr. pole vault
    39) The 1967 "Impossible Dream" Boston Red Sox - nuff said
    40) Don King - made boxing what it is today - a boring cesspool
    
    NAZZ
    

 Geez isn't anybody allowed to stretch the trooth a little. Sure occasionally
 one man did tackle Brown. Huff's winning the battle against Brown one on one
 is a figment of the NY Media and Huff's imagination. I was and still am a
 Giants' fan and I know that Huff had success against Brown but Brown also
 chew up and spit Sam out on many occasions.........

 mike

    >> Tell that to Giants center line backer Sam Huff. 
    
       "Center line backer"? You're the one who hasn't got a clue, George.
        There ain't no such thing as a "center line backer". Hahaha. It's
        middle linebacker, George. Stop embarassing yourself and stick
        manly sports like figure skating because you obviously don't even
        know the basics about football. I bet you think quarterback is change
        for a dollar. I'm beginning to think this is just you looking for an 
        argument. Did you even know who OJ was before he was took that lei-
        surely cruise on national tv?
     
    >> The word was that if he felt Brown was going to reverse his direction 
    >> he'd deliberately send the rest of his team the other way so he could 
    >> take him one on one. That probably an exaduration but he definitely 
    >> held his own against Brown. 

       Yes, George, that's a very big "exaduration" (whatever the heck that
       is). Holding your own against Brown was like holding your own against
       Wilt and keeping him down from amazing to phenomenal.
    

RE        <<< Note 183.59 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>       "Center line backer"? You're the one who hasn't got a clue, George.
>        There ain't no such thing as a "center line backer". Hahaha. It's
>        middle linebacker, 

  Duck and weave, duck and weave. Since you don't know anything about this
issue pick on my language. Hey, won't be long before I make a spelling error
maybe you can get some mileage out of that.

  Lighten up Tommy, no one knows everything. Why not just admit that you don't
know anything about football from this period and let those of us who actually
watched the games argue this out. Either that or go do some research and join
the fight on the issues rather than meaningless nit picking details.

  No, Jimmy Brown was not a better running back than O.J. because I said center
instead of middle. That has nothing to do with this debate.

  Meanwhile back to the topic, I'm still waiting for someone to name a few good
team besides the Giants that Jimmy Brown had to face on a regular basis.

  George

   re .57
    
    Well, that's much better than SI's list IMO. But I'd drop the
    '80 Olympic team and the '67 Sox both exciting teams but what
    exactly did they contribute? I'd also lump Bird, Magic and Stern
    together because they all helpoed make basketball more marketable.
    I'd also drop Ozzie Smith, Dick Butkus and Lawrence Taylor because
    if you're going to start picking the best at particular positions
    then you'd need a list of about 100 which probably still wouldn't
    be long enough. In place of those I'd put:

      Vince Lomabardi - the biggest influence on football coaches 
                        at all levels.

      Roone Arledge - thank you for spanning the globe and all the
                      technological advances.

      Roberto Duran - arguably the greatest fighter of the last forty years.

      Willie Mays - arguably the best baseball player ever.

      Olga Korbut - captured our hearts and brought gymnastics into the
                    spotlight.

      Tommie Smith, John Carlos, and mumble mumble mumble - for better
                    or worse solidified the postion of athlete as spokesmen
                    and social activist. As a young black kid in the '60s
                    the sight of their raised fists on the Olympic podium
                    sent chills down my spine.

    >> No, Jimmy Brown was not a better running back than O.J. because I 
    >> said center instead of middle. That has nothing to do with this debate.

       It has alot to do with the debate. You don't have the numbers to
       back up your position and now it's revealed that you don't even
       know very very basic football positions and yet you'll try and argue
       that OJ was better than a man generally acknowledged as the best
       football player ever. Pardon me if I think your credibility stinks.
    

RE        <<< Note 183.62 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>       It has alot to do with the debate. You don't have the numbers to
>       back up your position and now it's revealed that you don't even
>       know very very basic football positions and yet you'll try and argue
>       that OJ was better than a man generally acknowledged as the best
>       football player ever. Pardon me if I think your credibility stinks.
    
  Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Nit, Nit, Nit, Pick, Pick, Pick.

  Tommy, name a team tough team Brown had to play against on a regular basis
besides the Giants.

  George

  On another note, who ever built the Astrodome had an impact on sports. Same
with the guys who gave us the DH in baseball. It may have been infamous rather
than famous but it was still an impact.

  George

When O.J. played, there were 14 games in the season, not 16.

Ken

    	Great defenses when Brown played?  The Colts, Lions and Eagles
    come to mind right off the top of my head.
    
    				   /Don

    
    
       A friend dropped off the current issue of SI and here 
      are some *FACTS* on Jim Brown:
    
        o His career average per carry was 5.22 yards.
    
        o He led the league in rushing 8 of his 9 years.
    
        o In 9 years he never missed a game.
    
        o In his final season, he had 1,544 yards. 5.3 yards per carry and 
          17 touchdowns.
    
      As for Sam Huff, he has a scar on the bridge of his nose from a 
      collision with Brown. His nose was crushed by the force of his
      helmet crashing down on it. Two of his teeth were shattered.
      Huff doesn't remember a thing about the collision. "I woke up on
      the trainer's table," he later said.

    what tough team did OJ run against george????
    

RE              <<< Note 183.68 by 30008::ROBICHAUD "CasinoMania" >>>

>    	Great defenses when Brown played?  The Colts, Lions and Eagles
>    come to mind right off the top of my head.
    
  The Colts were in the other Conference. From what I remember of the early
60's, the Eagles were terrible and the Lions were not much better.

  George

 The Steelers and Raiders come to mind and maybe Miami during OJ's time.
 Of course he didn't play against either the Steelers or the Raiders twice
 a year..........

 I'm a USC man and love OJ but Brown was in his own class..........

 mike

RE              <<< Note 183.68 by 30008::ROBICHAUD "CasinoMania" >>>

>    	Great defenses when Brown played?  The Colts, Lions and Eagles
>    come to mind right off the top of my head.
    
  The Colts were in the other Conference. One of the most famous NFL
Championship games was the one in the late '50s when the Colts went for it and
made it on 4th down and long against the Giants and set up the winning
touchdown. I think it was a draw play to Lenny Moore. At any rate, the Browns
wouldn't have played the Colts all that much. 

  And from what I remember of the early 60's, the Eagles were terrible and the
Lions were not much better. 

  Hey, I'm not saying that Brown wasn't great, he was. And he did play against
some good teams. But there were some really awful teams in that conference as
well so just because O.J. got to play against the Pats that doesn't diminish
his accomplishment. Jimmy Brown got to play against some pathetic teams as
well. 

  George 

    
     Let's see some OJ numbers to back up these assertions, George.
    There always were and always will be weak teams in the league
    and if anything OJ played against weaker defenses with the advent
    of the league expanding via the AFL merger and other peripheral
    leagues syphoning off talent. No let's see something beyond fairy
    tales of the immense bravado of Sam Huff and the word of Mr. Center
    Linebacker. You're alone in your belief of Simpson over Brown - defend
    yourself properly. You haven't to this point.

RE                       <<< Note 183.70 by BSS::MENDEZ >>>

>    what tough team did OJ run against george????
    
  Dalphins, Steelers ...

  Wasn't O.J. playing for the Bills during Miami's perfect season? If so then
he played against the no name defense. I'm pretty sure he was playing for the
Bills then because I remember seeing him and Franco Harris in the probowl after
one of the Steelers Superbowl wins and the Steelers had their good years after
the Dalphins. 

  George

RE        <<< Note 183.74 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>No let's see something beyond fairy
>    tales of the immense bravado of Sam Huff and the word of Mr. Center
>    Linebacker. You're alone in your belief of Simpson over Brown - defend
>    yourself properly. You haven't to this point.

  Ok Tommy, but since I asked 1st you answer 1st.

  Tell me about the tough teams Jimmy Brown played against other than the
Giants.

  George

    
    
         What were the average weights of the Def lines and Linebackers
    when Jim Brown Played compared to when OJ played?
    
    
    Chap

    re .76
    
      I thought as much, George. 
    
      And yes, OJ did play for Buffalo the year that Miami had their 
     perfect season. I'd think that you'd know that much about the guy 
     that proposing as the greatest running back ever but apparently
     not. And no, the Steelers were in a separate division so OJ didn't 
     play them very often. The other great AFC team at that time was 
     Oakland who was also in another division. In OJ's division were  
     the Dolphins who were incredible for about a three or four year
     stretch but that's about it as players departed for other teams and
     leagues, the Pats who were worse than anything Brown could have 
     faced, the Jets who were pretty awful as well and the Colts whose
     glory days went with Don Shula to Miami.
     

  The bottom line is that both O.J. and Brown were great running backs, both
had one or two really tough opponents in their division and a few more tough
teams around the league. And both played some games against some really weak
teams as well. 

 Other factors seem to even out, Brown played a shorter season and didn't get
beat up as much but by O.J.'s time the talent was spread out a bit more. 

  I give the edge to O.J. because the teams he played for were ok to poor while
some of the Browns teams that Jimmy Brown played on were pretty good. Hey, it's
a subjective call. Like I said, both were great running backs.

  George

|        What were the average weights of the Def lines and Linebackers
|    when Jim Brown Played compared to when OJ played?
  
Good point, except the bigger is not necessarliy better.  The differrence is 
that the linemen, and particularly the linebackers, are better athletes today.

Thsi whole thing is a tough call.  I tend to agree that Brown was better than 
OJ, but not as by the huge margin some seem to think.  Also there is no way you
could rate Sayers higher than OJ.  Sayers was the most talented of all, but his
career was so short that you couldn't compare.

=Bob=

 > And from what I remember of the early 60's, the Eagles were terrible and the
 > Lions were not much better. 

Couldn't let this go by.....

Can you say Chuck Bednarik???? Probably the greatest 2-way player ever. And
the Lions had a guy named Joe Schmidt.....

I saw both Brown and OJ play, and Brown was better by far. Brown was like
Larry Bird - he seemed to move in slow motion, but nobody could catch him.
He would disappear into a pile, you'd be getting up to head for the fridge,
and the pile would move and JB would sorta stroll out the back and take off,
he was amazing. Brown and Bednarik were the greatest players I ever saw.

josh

Didn't Bednarik play mostly in the 1950's??

The Crazy Met

  Of course comparing Brown to O.J. is probably not the best comparison to make
since Brown was more of a fullback and O.J. was more of a half back. Yes, Brown
would plow into a pile and keep going but that's what fullbacks do. Halfbacks
try to run around the pile rather than through it.

  George

|  Of course comparing Brown to O.J. is probably not the best comparison to make
|since Brown was more of a fullback and O.J. was more of a half back. Yes, Brown
|would plow into a pile and keep going but that's what fullbacks do. Halfbacks
|try to run around the pile rather than through it.

However, each of them was the primary ball carrier for their team, os it is a
valid comparison.

  Well, it is until you say that Brown was better than O.J. because of his
ability to squirm through a pile and come out the other side. That's just not a
half back's job. 

  Also if your primary ball carrier is a fullback rather than a halfback you
run a different set of plays. 

  It's an ok comparison but not a great comparison.

  Now Jimmy Brown to Franco Harris, that would be a good comparison.

  George

    
      George sounds like he's starting to wane a little bit.
     Brown didn't just plow people over, he could outrun and
     out quick them too but he loved contact. The reason he
     threatened to come back when Franco Harris was approaching
     his record was that he had little respect for Harris. Brown
     said that he watched Harris run out of bounds too often when
     defenders were closing in. Brown said that just because he 
     had the ball didn't mean that he couldn't be the one dishing
     out the punishment instead of receiving it. I've read a bio-
     graphy and an autobiography of his and he was unique, one for
     the ages. OJ was great but Brown is universally acknowledged
     as not just the best back ever but the best football player ever
     period.
    
     re Chuck Bednarik
    
      Ask Frank Gifford if he knows Bednarik. Old Chuck came pretty
     close to decapitating Frank and saving MNF viewers twenty years of
     Gifford's inanities.

  No, I'm not waning at all. I saw them both, they were both great, I think
O.J. was better for the reasons I've given. If you feel otherwise fine. 

  But now that you mention it, Frank Gifford should definitely be on that list.
He was an outstanding flanker back for the Giants and while other's have come
and gone he's the one guy who's lasted on Monday Night Football pretty much
from the start. 

  The Giants got some big yards with Y.A. Tittle to Frank Gifford on a crossing
pattern. He'd go in some pretty thick traffic and come up with a shoe string
catch.

  Del Shoffner always seemed to work the sidelines and run the deep stuff. If
only he had held on to that ball in the Bear's endzone during that ice bowl
NFL Championship game ...

  George

  So what? Why do you insist on making my noting style a big issue?

  Will you get off my case? I'm sorry that you got embarrassed by making a
strong claim about something when you knew nothing about it but that's not my
fault, now leave me alone and stick to discussing the issues. 

  The topic here is SI's top 40 sports figures and how we feel about those
people (and the horse), it's not a topic about my noting style.

  George

    Nazz,
    
    I like your picks, but they're obviously NE biased.  Some of them
    are fine,but that many Celtics don't belong in the top 40 of all
    sports.  From the looks SI just did individuals, not teams.  The
    67 Dream Team?  They didn't even win a pennant and what influence
    did they have over, for example, the 69 Mets?   Lewis was versatile,
    but for me, Moses was the most dominant I can think of for the longest
    period of time.  
    
    Tommy, the 80 hockey team influenced patriotism beyond belief when it
    was needed.  Plus, ever team after it is still compared to it, so it's
    still fresh in people's minds, almost 15 years later.  That's why I
    put in on mine.

   >   Ask Frank Gifford if he knows Bednarik. Old Chuck came pretty
   >  close to decapitating Frank and saving MNF viewers twenty years of
   >  Gifford's inanities.

As usual, Tommy gets right to the point ;). If Bednarik ever failed on 
the football field that was it. He put Giff out of the game, so I guess
he figgered that was enough, but if he had known the future he woulda
kilt him fer sure. 

josh

    	I know that Bednarik played on the Eagles team that won the
    1960 NFL title.  The Chicago Bears had some pretty good defenses
    in the late 50's early 60's also.
    
    				   /Don

>> But now that you mention it, Frank Gifford should definitely be 
>> on that list.

   I think that you'd be hard-pressed to find a spot on the 40 most
   important/influential sportscasters of the last forty years for
   Frank let alone a spot on something as all encompassing as the 40 
   most important/influential sports figures. Frank hasn't been anything
   but third banana on MNF for twenty years and the next revelatory
   thing that he says will be his first. OJ better than Jim Brown?
   There *is* small room for argument. But Frank Gifford over Curt Gowdy or
   Jim McKay or Vin Scully or Johnny Most or a host of others? No way.
   
    

  Gifford is a hall of fame football player and he's gone beyond being a color
commentator. He did play by play back in the Meridith/Cossell days and he's
made an impact announcing other sports as well, notably the down hill at the
Olympics. 

  And where other guys have come and gone, he's the one guy that's always been
associated with Monday Night Football which is one of the all time institutions
in American Sport. 

  True Curt Gowdy did go national but I doubt many people outside of Boston
remember him all that well. He is mostly remembered as the Red Sox announcer
that made the big time. And while Johnny Most was probably the greatest Celtics
fan of all time, he's pretty much local. 

  I agree that Jim McKay deserves consideration. Vin Scully? I don't know, some
times I like him, some times he drives me nuts. I thought that he and Joe
Garigiola did a terrible job with the '86 world series, they pretty much phoned
it in. 

  I'll never forget Scully's irritating voice after the game 6 wild pitch:
"Mitchel scores, the game is tied!!!". Yuch!!!, the worst moment in sports. Ok,
that wasn't his fault but they did do a pretty poor job overall. 

  George 

    Before 1967, the Red Sox drew flies.  I loved to sneak down to the box
    seats from my $1.50 grandstand seat, and I'd have my pick of locations,
    as long as the ushers weren't jerks and kicked us out.  Usually they'd
    just move you back to your old seat, but once my two friends and I got
    escorted out of the park in the second or third inning of the second
    game of a doubleheader, for throwing popcorn at the head of this old
    guy in the first row!
    
    Anyway, the 1967 Red Sox were the most influential team in New England
    sports history, because they changed the perception of baseball in this
    region, and began a one-sided love affair (fans love Sox, Sox love to
    break fans' hearts) that continues to this day.
    
    As for Olga Korbut, she never won my heart.  That ugly little pipsqueak
    was a freak of nature, much like Manute Bol.  I refuse to watch any
    event where alleged adults compete at under 100 pounds.  even flywight
    boxers weigh more than that!
    
    NAZZ

>> Gifford is a hall of fame football player 

   Are you positive? I was aware that he was a good football player but
   I didn't think he was a Hall Of Famer.

>> and he's gone beyond being a color commentator. He did play by play back 
>> in the Meridith/Cossell days 

   Frank's main qualities have always been that he was a likable, inobtrusive
   guy. Meredith and Cosell were the show back then, Dierdorf and Michaels are
   the show now.

>> and he's made an impact announcing other sports as well, notably the down 
>> hill at the Olympics. 

   He made an "impact"? Might that not be a little strong. Given that he isn't
   fully qualified to examine the technical aspects of the sport, the most he 
   could do is announce who's up next, point out the obvious and prod whoever
   is analyst. Which is pretty much what he does on MNF maybe even more than
   what he does on MNF. I don't think that you could find four sports fans that 
   remember Frank Gifford for his downhill announcing.
    

re: Gifford as a player.

My research says he was a product of NY hype.  He was
very good, but not great.

Regardless, he is in the Hall of Fame.

I'm not a big Gifford fan.  While he is in the HoF, I can't see him as
being one of the most influential sports figures of the last 40 years.


JMHO,
'Saw

    
    
    JaKe
    

The entire issue of OJ vs Jim Brown has been settled. Jim Brown was
better. He said so.

In fact, said that OJ did drugs and that gave him another side.

Brown was interviewed over the weekend by ESPN. Some other thoughts:

 o He likes Jerry Rice and has no problem with him having the TD record.
	He says he likes the 49ers, mentioning their tradition with
	Joe Montana and current players such as Rice, Steve Young and
	John Taylor.

 o He thinks Eric Dickerson coulda broke all running records if he had
	concentrated on playing instead of his contract disputes over
	more money.

 o He thinks some players transcend their era. Among those mentioned 
	were Montana, Ray Neitschki (sp?), Sammy Baugh, Sterline Sharpe
	and Andre Rison.

 o When asked if he could play in today's game, Big Jim said that it
	would be a piece of cake.

TTom

>
> o He thinks some players transcend their era. Among those mentioned 
>	were Montana, Ray Neitschki (sp?), Sammy Baugh, Sterline Sharpe
>	and Andre Rison.
>

Nitschke.


hth,
'Saw

    For the job McKay's done on Wide World of Sports, he deservers it over
    Gifford.  The 72 Olympics was TV Sports ugliest memory, but McKay
    handled it with class and dignity.  That's part of why Arledge made
    the list.
    

>    For the job McKay's done on Wide World of Sports, he deservers it over
>    Gifford.  The 72 Olympics was TV Sports ugliest memory, but McKay
>    handled it with class and dignity.  That's part of why Arledge made
>    the list.


For me, McKay's reporting of Munich, and Al Michaels reporting of the
World Series Earthquake, were two very important moments in sport, and 
I felt their broadcasts transcended sport.

Arledge took a concept on a network that was struggling, and parlayed it
into a wonderfully long and prosperous thing.  Wide World of Sports was
one of the most innovative things in all of television.


'Saw
    

  Regardless of his stats Gifford was an impact player for the Giants. Del
Shoffner would rack up yardage running down Y.A. Tittle's long bombs, but it
was Gifford that went into the traffic up the middle and came up with passes
for critical yardage on 3rd down. 

  My brother and I were big Gifford fans long before he stepped up to a mic. I
always felt he deserved to be in the hall of fame. 

  George 

> Anyway, the 1967 Red Sox were the most influential team in New England
> sports history

exactly, regional, not national or global.

The Crazy Met

    
    	Where's Red Auerbach on the list????
    
    	As for the other arguements, Jim Brown was the greatest, with
    Walter Payton 2nd...OJ was all for OJ and his stats, he could have
    cared less if the Bills won or lost.  
    
    	Gifford's an NFL butt-kisser like Will McDonough, which is the only
    reason the two of them have prominent roles on NFL telecasts...Gifford
    adds zippo to MNF and Will "the Pats are going to St.Louis" McDonough
    gives info that's a week old on his NFL live gig.

                     <<< Note 183.107 by BUSY::RSTPIERRE >>>
                              -< Where's Red???? >-

    
    >	Where's Red Auerbach on the list????
    
      Absent, where he belongs.
    
    Mark.
    

    
    107.  Yeah, right....

    The question isn't best ever. It's most influential.  What kind of
    influence did he have?  More than Russell?  He put the team together,
    but I don't know if you can call it "influential".
    

I agree that Red shoulda been on this list. He has been very influential
in the development of the NBA.

I also notice that there's only a couple of coaches on this list. Wooden
and The Bear. 

I guess the Wooden > Dean debate has been settled. 

TTom

    IMHO, the argument thus far "who is the best running back ever" must
    consider Earl Cambell.  In his prime, he is the only peer to Jim Brown.
    Forget OJ.  But the great Jim Brown, over nine years, is peerless while
    Earl had a 3-4 year run during which he flirted with greatness,
    (remember the Monday night games?). 
    
    Jim is the man, the best, and belongs in the Top 10, let alone the Top
    40.  Earl is #2.
    

    If your talking about impact on the sport one played, Wilt has to be on
    the list. Numerous rule changes (3 seconds in the lane, changes in
    offensive goaltending and free throw shooting rules, widening the lane)
    were made to try to shut down Wilt, with VERY limited success. Russell
    was a very good player who had a fabulous supporting cast, but Wilt
    changed the game.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
      During last night's MNF broadcast that was billed as Emmit Smith
     vs. Barry Sanders, they showed a graphic of the running backs who
     reached 7,000 yards in the fewest games. Jim Brown was second fastest.
     Earl Campbell was first. I did not see OJ Simpson in the top seven.

  O.J. didn't have the offensive line that others had nor did the Bills have
the passing game to keep the defense honest. 

  I was browsing in a book store and I looked it up. The Browns were near the
top and often on top of their Conference for all of the late 50's and early
60's. Jimmy Brown was always surrounded by a good team. 

  George 

    
    >> O.J. didn't have the offensive line that others had nor did the 
    >> Bills have the passing game to keep the defense honest. 
    
       I have a book at home with a picture of a smiling OJ surrounded
       by his linemen the year that he broke 2,000 yards. The caption
       reads, "OJ thanks his hardworking linemen." (Hokey, I know). 
       Even someone with an ego as big as OJ's knows that you don't rack 
       up 2,000 yards all by yourself. He had a very good line.
    
    

RE        <<< Note 183.116 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>The caption
>       reads, "OJ thanks his hardworking linemen." (Hokey, I know). 
>       Even someone with an ego as big as OJ's knows that you don't rack 
>       up 2,000 yards all by yourself. He had a very good line.
    
  Just because a back is smart enough to spread the credit around that doesn't
mean they deserve the credit. Obviously it was in O.J.'s interest to give them
as much motivation and praise as possible. He was hardly an objective critic. 

  I've seen coaches call their own championship team a bunch of no talent
clowns (and worse) after a loss, does that mean they really didn't have
talent? I'm not calling players and coaches liars, but let's face it, coaches
and players say what they have to say to get the most out of their players
and team mates.

  George

    I thought Dickerson was first...
    

I recall Dickerson being first as well...

    
    	OJ was the best college back I ever saw, dominated games. I think
    if you look into it his O line at Buffalo has some pro-bowlers, Reggie
    Mckenzie (sp), etc.....his first few years in Buffalo weren't that
    great.
    	The best pro-back I ever saw was Sayers even though his time was
    limited. I never got to see Brown play so I cannot judge him. There's
    some great backs who never played for great teams so like anything else
    it's just someones opinion.
    
    	Wasn't there a back who was traded for 7 players or so to the
    Rams (way back? Someone out there must know.... 
    
    	Put Barry Sanders on a great line......

   >> Wasn't there a back who was traded for 7 players or so to the
   >> Rams (way back? Someone out there must know.... 
    
      Ollie Matson.
    
      And yes, Reggi Mackenzie was a Pro Bowl tackle for the Bills back in
      OJ's day. They also had several other very good lineman and a good
      QB in Ferguson as well as a good blocking fullback in Roosevelt
      Mumblesomething. OJ was not a one man team by any stretch of the 
      imagination.
    

    
    
    Roosevelt Leaks from U of Texas a year or two prior to Earl Campbell
    
    
    Cadzilla2

    
    
 >> Roosevelt Leaks from U of Texas a year or two prior to Earl Campbell
   
    That was him, a great blocking back. The Bills also had a very good
    QB in Joe Ferguson. 

    
    	.121  The blocking back for OJ was Jim Braxton, who rused for 100+
    in the same game that OJ went for 250, against the Pats in 1973.
    	      We all must remember that the big change in OJ's career was 
    when Lou Saban took over, and let the Juice run 30-40 times a game. 
    Much like John Robinson, who did the same for Dickerson....

I remember Roosevelt Leeks playing for the 
Colts, and Braxton blocking for OJ.

      I've only read up to .73, but I don't think the Eagles were
      always bad defensively.  For example, they won the NFL 
      championship in 1960 by beating the Packers.  

Yeah, they had the DB, I forget his name.

He used to be paired up with Pat Summerall before Madden, but CBS got
pissed at him.  I don't think he made a racial remark (at least if he
did I don't remember it being as bad as Cosell's monkey comment or
Jimmy Greek's thigh comment), but I could be wrong.

Anyway, he was a DB for the Eagles and I think (not sure, but think) he
was on the championship team......


'Saw

Tom Brookshire

><<< Note 183.128 by SCOONE::MCCULLOUGH "Hakuna Matata - means no worries..." >>>
>
>Tom Brookshire

Thanks =Bob=!

That was starting to bug me and I was starting to get antsy because I
couldn't remember....


'Saw

    OJ had some great offensive lines.  McKenzie has been mentioned
    but they also had Joe DeLameliure (sp).  If you recall the offensive
    line was called the Electric Company and OJ supplied the Juice.  The
    debate is interesting but I think it is pretty clear that Jim Brown
    was the best back ever.  On an aside Rice may go down as the best
    football player ever.
     

    
        The Bills had a very good tight end back then, too. Does
       anyone remember who it was? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

      I'm now onto .97!
    
      Gifford was not always a flanker.  He became a flanker thanks
      to Chuck Bednarik.
    
      When Lombardi was the offensive coordinator for the New York
      Giants, he made Gifford a 'triple-threat' halfback (running,
      catching, and throwing).  Lombardi went on to do the same 
      thing for Hornung.
    
      Neat story I heard on Bednarik.  I guess one time Chuck Noll
      knocked him out in a game.  Bednarik told Noll he would get 
      back at him.  Apparently, after a game, he cold cocked the 
      back of Noll's head with an elbow which knocked Noll clean 
      out!!
    
      Incidentally, I think the whole weight of players thing can
      be a little exagerrated.  Only because they were different times
      and part of the difference is due to conditioning/weightlifting/
      steroids.  Jim Brown also lacked the regimented programs these
      others have had.
    
      One other thing...we keep talking about who played against who.
      That's a pretty meaningless stat unless we can see how they did
      against what specific team.  How many yards would O.J. gain against
      Miami?  How about Brown against the Giants?
    
      My inkling is to take Brown in a heartbeat over Simpson.  But, my
      favorite will probably always be Sayers.
    
      By the way, I started watching football at the age of 9 in 1967.
      Saw a couple games in '66.  But, I've read some and seen film and
      stuff.  I had most of the Punt Pass and Kick library!  Great reading
      for a kid!!
    
                                                     Tony

      up to .117...
    
      The Bills line stunk up the joint in Simpson's early years.  The
      electric company didn't come into being until some years later.
    
      Man, I like a good argument, but the bias rings loud and clear.
      C'mon Tommy, I agree with ya!  But, maintaining the Bills always 
      had a good line weakens the credibility of your overall argument!
    
      THE LINE STUNK AND THE BILLS WERE THE PITS!!!
    
      The Browns were always a fine team when Jim Brown played for them.
      Besides Ryan, Collins was also a fine player on offense.
    
                                                     Tony

|      The Browns were always a fine team when Jim Brown played for them.
|      Besides Ryan, Collins was also a fine player on offense.
 
Was Paul Warfield the other WR, or did he come in later?

Gene Hickerson played right guard I beleive.

   >> Neat story I heard on Bednarik.  I guess one time Chuck Noll
   >> knocked him out in a game.  Bednarik told Noll he would get 
   >> back at him.  Apparently, after a game, he cold cocked the 
   >> back of Noll's head with an elbow which knocked Noll clean 
   >> out!!
    
      Football was a much tougher, grittier sport back then. In Brown's
      autobiography, he said that after a play he'd be at the bottom of 
      the pile and guys would be biting him, gouging at his eyes or 
      twisting his ankle. After Sam huff tried to wrench Brown's ankle
      after a play Brown went up to him and said, "I expect that from
      everyone else but Sam, you're better than that." Brown said that
      Huff never did anything dirty again.. 

  There were also some runners that could make it as a unit. Franco Harris and
Rocky Briar (sp?) worked well together. Also Larry Zonka, Jim Kick, and Mercury
Morris from the Dalphins. Smashing their way to an undefeated season was a
major influence on the sport.

  George

Rocky Bleier.   Vietnam vet who had a severely wounded foot, and they
figured he wouldn't ever walk again, never mind play football.   One very
gutsy guy.



Meantime, while we're talking about all the greats, one person who amazes
me is Jackie Slater of the LA Rams.   Here's a guy who plays in The Pit,
at offensive tackle, and he's quietly put in 19 seasons.

Can you imagine that -- 19 years of line play.  That's an accomplishment
in my book....


'Saw

    
    > Football was a much tougher, grittier sport back then.
    
    But one thing that works against Brown in a comparison of eras was the
    relative dearth of black players of his day, even compared to when
    OJ hit his prime and certainly to today.  Almost all of the players 
    came from the colleges, and that's where the bottleneck existed, as the
    few who made it such as Brown had to go above and beyond the call and
    even then catch some major breaks along the way.  In Brown's case the
    big break was being taken in by the family of a prominent physician and 
    Syracuse alum.  Generally I don't like to take a player out of his time 
    when making comparisons, because it's unfair to the older players who
    could have just as easily taken advantage of the modern advances in
    training techniques as today's, but when so many potentially great 
    athletes were excluded on a basis that had nothing to do with talent or 
    training it should be accounted for.  Considering the overwhelming
    representation of black players in today's NFL, I'd say that this
    factor is even more significant than in the very same valid arguments
    in baseball around the records of players like Ruth/Cobb/etc.
    
    I'd still rate Brown ahead of OJ, I think, but I'm not so sure I'd
    automatically place him above a Walter Payton or a Barry Sanders from
    today.  And yes, I think that Jerry Rice has as good an argument as
    anyone as the greatest football player ever, to the extent that such
    arguments are practical.
    
    glenn
    

 >     Football was a much tougher, grittier sport back then. In Brown's
 >     autobiography, he said that after a play he'd be at the bottom of 
 >     the pile and guys would be biting him, gouging at his eyes or 
 >     twisting his ankle. After Sam huff tried to wrench Brown's ankle
 >     after a play Brown went up to him and said, "I expect that from
 >     everyone else but Sam, you're better than that." Brown said that
 >     Huff never did anything dirty again.. 

What a rivalry that was. Remember how JB got up reaaalll slooowwww after
every play? The rest of the pile would be back in the huddle already, JB
would lie on the turf for a minute, sorta get to his knees, look around,
get up, shake his head, look dazed, walk back to the huddle just in time
to line-up. This was smart football - you never knew if he was hurt cuz 
he always acted as if he could hardly walk, then he would *explode* 
through the line and you'd think, "well, i guess he's ok..."

josh

    Paul was a younger brother of Jack Seymour one of the greatest college
    football players of all time at Notre Dame and a prominent member of
    the most heralded college game of my lifetime, Michigan State vs Irish
    in 1966.
    
    Seymour (Paul) seemed to save his best games for the Pats and at 6'5,
    250 with talent would've made Jimmy Brown a 200yd /game average.

    Re: DB turned CBS announcer 
    
    what was Irv Cross?

    re: -1
    
      I thought the same thing Mike.  Its just an odd coincedence.
      Both Tom Brookshier and Irv Cross were Eagle DB's who made
      it to CBS Sports.
    
      One other thing I like to do is to not forget the real oldies.
      I'll bet Jim Thorpe was a good football player.  Same with
      Bronco Nagurski, Don Hutson, Ernie Nevers, Red Grange (at 
      least so they say).
    
      Roosevelt Leaks.  Hadn't heard that guys name in a long time.
      Same with Gene Hickerson.
    
                                                 Tony

    The broadcaster in question is definitely Brookie. He was in the TNT
    special on the NFL (he's no. 40 on the Eagles, trying to tackle Jim
    Brown) and was a member of the 1960 champion Eagles. He has since had
    his number retired by the Birds. His career ended when he broke his leg
    in a game in 1962 (I think). A Joe Theisman type injury - the bone was
    sticking in the mud. Additional irony, Brookie's spot in the lineup was
    taken by Irv Cross.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

I had completely forgotten about Irv Cross.  I liked Irv too.  I wonder
what happened to him.   Maybe HBO's NFL show should do a segment on him.....


'Saw

    Last I heard, Irv was still a stock broker in Philadelphia.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

SI NEGLECTED TO PICK THESE 15

By  Bruce Keidan

from The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9-22-1994


        Fourteen people and one animal unjustly omitted by Sports Illustrated
from its list of 40 individuals said by the magazine to have exerted the
most influence on sport since 1954(listed in no particular order and 
numbering 15 iun total becuase this is how old I am in dog years):

1.  Vince Lombardi--Not for building a football dynasty in Green Bay, and not
for his pithy philosophy of life("Winning isn't everything, it's the only
thing.")  Selected because of his game plans.  under Lombardi, the Packers 
had only four plays:  sweep left, sweep right, fullback up the middle, 
and a pass to Max McGee.  Most of the time, you knew which one was coming.  
Lombardi liked it that way.  He reasoned there was nothing more 
demoralizing than knowing what your opponent was about to do and being 
unable to stop it.  This strategy was later emulated by President Clinton
in making public every detail of his Haitian invasion plan before sending 
his troops in.

2.  Terry Bradshaw--The first bald former football player to appear in a 
Burt Reynolds movie without a toupee.  Thus far, Burt Reynolds has resisted 
the temptation to be the second.

3.  George Foreman--Muhammad Ali was No. 1 on SI's list, but George is more
of a household name.  At least in the Foreman household.  George has 11 sons,
all named George.  No one knows his daughter's name, Georgette prehaps?  
Gerogia?  Girl George??

4.  Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding--I know what you're thinking:  "Why
them?  Why now?"  If SI can make Larry Bird and Earvin "Magic" Johnson a 
single entry, surely I can do no less for Nancy and Tonya, the co-stars of
the greatest soap opera in the annals of figure skating.  Turns out it's a 
tossup which one we like less, the conspirator or her victim.

5.  Brian Bosworth--Not just because he turned out to be an $11 million bust,
thus helping hasten the advent of a cap on salaries for NFL rookies.  But
also because there was a time when every third boy between the age of 12
and 17 wore his hair styled in a "Boz," the look he popularized.  Bosworth
now support himself by impersonating an actor in bad motion pictures.

6.  Bo Jackson--SI must have been out of town when this guy was an all-star
in football and baseball.  Bo knows speech impediments.  Bo knows hip replace-
ment surgery.  But Bo knows NO limits.

7.  Ralphie the Buffalo--Either you have beasts on the list or you don't.  
If SI can choose Secretariat, I nominate the University of Colorado football
team's mascot.  Ralphie III is a credit to her species.  She is also politically
correct.  And she is exceptionally smart and well behaved.  Especilly in
comparison to some of the PLAYERS on the Colorado football team.

8.  Barry Bonds--Is YOUR autograph worth $7500 a month??  Is anyone else's
you know?  Barry's was.  He got a $7500 reduction in his spousal- and child-
support payments.  It lasted until the newspapers found out that the judge
sought and received Barry's autograph after the order was signed.

9.  Joe Paterno--When he seconded George Bush's nomination, Bush was 
elected president.  Then when he didn't, Bush was voted out.  What more can 
I say?

10.  Mario Lemieux--Just the sight of him holding a sand wedge is enough 
to reduce otherwise rational grownups into jabbering idiots who insist who 
insist golf ranks somewhere between full-contact karate and bungee jumping
in the toll it exacts on the body and the danger it represents to the
participant.

11.  Willie Cauley--Led the Big East Basketball Conference in time off for
good behavior this past summer, with 32 days.  Pitt declared him ineligible
at the point his arrests exceeded his scoring average.

12.  Andy Van Slyke--The Nostradamus of the Major League Players Association.
The day after he predicted there would be peace in the Middle East before
baseball players accepted a salary cap, King Hussein of Jordan phoned the 
Tel Aviv Hilton and made reservations for Passover weekend.

13.  Wilt Chamberlain--Still holds the single season scoring records for both 
the NBA and bachelors taller than 7 feet.

14.  John Fedko(JaKenote: Fedko is a local rather weird sportscaster)-- What
do you get when you cross a sportscast with MTV?  Tune in to WPXI(station he's
employed by) and see.

                                                Bruce Keidan



                                         
JaKe

re .146


>>4.  Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding--I know what you're thinking:  "Why
>>them?  Why now?"  If SI can make Larry Bird and Earvin "Magic" Johnson a 
>>single entry, surely I can do no less for Nancy and Tonya, the co-stars of
>>the greatest soap opera in the annals of figure skating.  Turns out it's a 
>>tossup which one we like less, the conspirator or her victim.

When did Kerrigan stop being America's Darling?  I remember watching a
Rangers game at Bruins just before the Winter Games, and they had some
sort of sendoff for New England competitors.  When Kerrigan came onto
the ice, the Garden erupted.

The Ranger announcer (the excellent Sam Rosen) noted that, after she was
attacked, both Mark Messier and Adam Oates wrote sympathy notes.

Has she not been forgiven for coming in second, or did I miss something?

Steve

She showed her true colors by being a bitch after she won silver, and 
then, as Disneyworld, she dissed Mickey Mouse.  

After that, it was history....

  Kerrigan will probably end up being well liked in the Boston area but nation
wide feelings about her will be mixed. Some see her as the sympathetic victim,
others see her as the "Why me" whinner who picked on Oksana about her weeping,
criticized the Mouse, and left the Olympics early. 

  In reality it appears that she is a whinner but then when she whinns she
generally calls it like it is. Baiul is a weeper, it was corny to wear the
medal riding a fake fire truck down a fake street, and it would have been
stupid for her to ignore the death threats and march with Tonya in the closing
ceremony when 2/3rds of the U.S. team had already left. 

  On the up side, she'll no doubt continue raking in the bucks for some time to
come. Her deals with Disney, Rebok, and Revelon are holding up and she packs
them in at the ice shows. 

  George 

After lasted nites BASEBALL I realized that Satchel Paige was left
off this list. Inexusable. Unacceptable. His influence was HUGE!!!!

- In the black community he was a symbol of success that inspired
millions.

- Even the white culture was affected  - "Don't look back..." and
other quotes of his have become standard pieces of American Culture.

- He was the greatest pitcher ever. No question.

josh

    Impact was huge, but most of it was after 1954, when SI started.  Not
    a bad pick though...
    

Josh, if you're interested in looking into Negro League baseball in more
detail, I warmly recommend John Holway's _Josh and Satch_ as a starter.
Holway is author of a number of books on the subject, but this is the
most accessible.  The other title character is Josh Gibson, who played
with and against Paige, and died tragically young.

Did they mention in the program that in 1965, at the age of 59, Paige
pitched three scoreless innings for the KC Athletics (1 hit, 0 W, 1 K)?

It is not hard to make a case for Paige as the greatest pitcher of all
time, nor is it hard to make a case for putting an asterisk before any
MLB record set before 1947 as having been achieved against inferior
competition.

Steve

    	RE: Vince Lombardi...
    
    	He did not say, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
    
    	He said something like "Winning isn't everything; the desire to
    	win, that's the only thing."
    
    	Big difference.
    
    	Scott

  Actually I think that Lombardi gave variations on the speech on different
occasions. Once I heard a tape of him giving that speech at rookie camp. If he
did that for one bunch of rookies then he probably did it at the beginning of
other seasons as well. 

  The version I heard went something like "Even at this level you have to block
and tackle. Blocking and tackling are the fundamentals of the game. If you
block and tackle you will win and in this league winning is everything." 

  Think the rah rah type of speech you would expect a coach to give a bunch
of rookies before sending them out to spend the day slamming into those sleds
and I think you should get the drift of the tone behind those words.

  George 

Probably the definitive work for Lombardi Philosophy (which is really
pretty applicable to life too) is his book "Run to Daylight".

If you have never read it, pick up a copy, and learn from it.

One thing about Lombardi was that he taught his players more than football.
Almost every single one of his former players has been really successful
in life, and they attribute a lot of that to the philosophies that Lombardi
taught them.


One thing that I thought was so cool about Lombardi was his offensive 
approach.  Everyone in the world knew that they'd run the Power Sweep
or throw the McGee or stuff like that.  They knew it was going to happen,b
but the Packers executed so well that they were, for the most part,
unstoppable.   That's a cool thing.

	"Here's what we're going to do against you.  Try and stop us"


Inexorable.  That's the word I'd use to describe it.....


'Saw

    I'm surprised that SI left off Roger Bannister who helped launch SI
    with his 4 minute mile business in 1954.
    
    Celtics were another team with limited plays but excellent excecution.
    
    The Megesey book and Lombardi books came out about the same time with
    two totally different views of pro football.

I remember posting a reply in an internal conference for our group some
years ago.  In it, I briefly discussed what it seemed the kernel of 
Lombardi's philosophy was to me.   I found it, and pulled out that
part:



Vince Lombardi, in his book "Run to Daylight" speaks often of a "single-minded
purpose".   Lombardi's concept of single minded purpose was envisioning the way
a play or game-plan looked when it was perfectly executed, then stopping at
nothing until what was actually executed matched his  vision.  He abhorred
distractions along the way.



'Saw

In "Run to Daylight" Lombardi claims to have never said "Winning isn't
evertything, it's the only thing".  He claims the appropriate quote was
something like "Winning isn't everything, it's how you react to 
losing".  Interestign to note that in all his time as a head coach he 
only lost one championship game, his first.  He obviously learned from
the experience.

Lombardi demanded more from his players than anyone else, but rewarded
them by building their self-image through winning.  As Saw said, this
prepared miost of his players for future success.

=Bob=

In regard to that Championship loss (to the Eagles I think) he said something
like "we didn't lose, we just ran out of time...."

He hated to lose....


'Saw

Lord Acton did NOT say "Power corrupts.".

Humphrey Bogart did NOT say "Play it again, Sam."

Vince Lombardi did NOT say "Winning... is the only thing."

But that's how it was reported.  Nice to be able to have confidence
in your daily paper, isn't it.

Steve

    
      And Charles Darwin never said "Survival of the fittest."

    Next thing you know is that you guys will be saying George Washington
    never chopped down that cherry tree.
    
    Mark.

      My single favorite baseball player is Satchel Paige.  It was
      pure bliss watching Ken Burn's baseball thing where they showed
      the old black leagues.  Satchel sure seemed like the best to me.
    
      I'll have to get that book on Satchel and Josh Gibson.
    
      I read all the Lombardi books.  The Packers really were such a
      combination of fine coaching and talent.  Man, they were loaded.
      One of my favorite stories was when Lombardi first talked to the
      Green Bay Packers.  He held up a football and said, "Men, this
      is a football."
    
      Max McGee replied, "Slow down coach...you're going too fast!"
    
                                                     Tony

>
>Lord Acton did NOT say "Power corrupts.".
>
>Humphrey Bogart did NOT say "Play it again, Sam."
>
>Vince Lombardi did NOT say "Winning... is the only thing."


That goes along with:

	Discretion is the better part of valor 

Which is from Shakespeare, but written differently.


Bogart's line was something like

	Play it, Sam.  

It followed that wonderful line

	Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world,
	she walks into mine.

Then he tells Sam

	If she can take it, so can I (pause to pour more Scotch).
	Play it, Sam....



Forrest Gump did say

	I gawta pee



'Saw

    
>      My single favorite baseball player is Satchel Paige.  It was
>      pure bliss watching Ken Burn's baseball thing where they showed
>      the old black leagues.  Satchel sure seemed like the best to me.
    
    It's interesting; I was talking to my mom about Satchel Paige on
    Sunday, and she was telling me what a disappointment it was to
    see him pitch as a rookie.  He came to the Indians with as much hype
    as Doby did; given that build up, his performance, however impressive
    given his age, just wasn't what my mom had hoped for at the time.
    She's really enjoyed seeing, in retrospect, the skill that led to
    the hype.

    Joe

Perhaps I'm going against the grain here, but I think that no way could
Paige carry Bob Gibson's jock.

Paige had some cute philosophies and stuff, and I never saw him pitch, but
as I kid I FEARED Bob Gibson....


'Saw

re: Cassablanca

Bogart also did say:
"You'll thank me someday.  Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but
 someday, and for the rest of your life."

But my favorite Bogie line remains from "The Petrified Forest", when
Duke Mantee said: 
"I've spent most of my life life on the run, and it looks like 
I'll spend the rest of it dead".

re: Paige and Gibson
We never saw Paige at his best.  There was no television in his 
heyday.  He was such a admirable sort, that I choose to beleive 
that he was as good a pitcher as he was said to be.

Gibson, on the other hand, had a very visable career.  To me he was 
something of a dying breed.  A ballplayer who was so totally focused
on winning that it consumed him on the field.  Beign a Red Sox fan, of
course, I hated Gibson for leading the Cards over the Sox in 1967, but 
in retrospect, I really wish there were a few more Bob Gibsons playing
today.

=Bob=

>Bogart also did say:
>"You'll thank me someday.  Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but
> someday, and for the rest of your life."

Yeah, that's a GREAT movie.


>But my favorite Bogie line remains from "The Petrified Forest", when
>Duke Mantee said: 
>"I've spent most of my life life on the run, and it looks like 
>I'll spend the rest of it dead".

I've never seen that one.

I've also got to see the entire Key Largo.  I've seen bits and pieces.

And of course The African Queen is stellar.  The scene where he is
in the water, pulling the boat through the marsh is so powerful....



>Gibson, on the other hand, had a very visable career.  To me he was 
>something of a dying breed.  A ballplayer who was so totally focused
>on winning that it consumed him on the field.  Beign a Red Sox fan, of
>course, I hated Gibson for leading the Cards over the Sox in 1967, but 
>in retrospect, I really wish there were a few more Bob Gibsons playing
>today.

Oh, I hated that in 67, no doubt.  Bob Gibson broke my heart.  But,
like you, in retrospect, I had the opportunity to see one of the greats
play the game....


'Saw

    
>    It's interesting; I was talking to my mom about Satchel Paige on
>    Sunday, and she was telling me what a disappointment it was to
>    see him pitch as a rookie.  He came to the Indians with as much hype
>    as Doby did; given that build up, his performance, however impressive
>    given his age, just wasn't what my mom had hoped for at the time.
    
    Didn't Paige rip off a fairly impressive winning streak with a couple
    of shutouts in the 1948 pennant drive?  As I recall, it was Bob Feller 
    (who continues to sound ungracious about the talents of black players
    of the era, as he did at the time) who had his lunch handed to him 
    in the World Series, with the supporting cast including Paige taking up
    the slack to bring home the championship.  Granted, Paige didn't pitch 
    at a stellar level for much longer after that, being over 40 years old.
    
    I wouldn't downplay Paige's talents in a comparison with Bob Gibson's.
    Paige pitched at a top-notch level for damn near 25 years, and white 
    America only saw the tail end, which wasn't too shabby even at that.  
    Gibson didn't break through to greatness until he was almost 30 and 
    had "only" about a 10-year period at the top.  So it's really just an
    impossible comparison, in more ways than just the opportunity to be
    seen and appreciated.
    
    glenn
       

    
>    Didn't Paige rip off a fairly impressive winning streak with a couple
>    of shutouts in the 1948 pennant drive?
    
    I _thought_ he was used mostly in relief in '48; that's certainly how
    my mom remembers him being used.  She probably only saw him once or
    twice, though...
    
>    As I recall, it was Bob Feller 
>    (who continues to sound ungracious about the talents of black players
>    of the era, as he did at the time) who had his lunch handed to him 
>    in the World Series, with the supporting cast including Paige taking up
>    the slack to bring home the championship.
    
    Yup.  Feller's World Series numbers are not impressive.
    
>    Granted, Paige didn't pitch 
>    at a stellar level for much longer after that, being over 40 years old.
    
    Can you imagine Nolan Ryan first getting the chance to pitch in the
    majors at 42, or however old Paige really was at the time?
    
    Joe

re: Feller

I noticed his attitude also.  Then again, all I've heard out 
of him in recent years is groussing about a variety of topics.
He acting like a bitter old man.  Doesn't he do Indians games
on television?  

=Bob=

    
    re: Feller
    
> Doesn't he do Indians games on television?
    
    No; never has that I can remember.
    
    Joe  

|> Doesn't he do Indians games on television?
    
|    No; never has that I can remember.

Am I thinking of Herb Score?

    
    Likely, yes.  Score's done the radio games for years...
    
    Joe

    Satch is better on guitar than he is playing baseball!

>
>    Satch is better on guitar than he is playing baseball!
>

But he was GREAT on trumpet too!

      Satchel Paige estimated that he pitched ~2500 games and won
      2000.  And this was a league whose all stars typically beat
      the major league all stars.  
    
      Sure they played a lot more games, but man, to win 2000 games!!!
    
                                                 Tony

I met Feller at a convention last year.  He was signing autographs while
dressed in his Indians uniform.  He looked pretty ridiculous.  I went up
to him and shook his hand and told him I had read about him and saw him
on ESPN.  He just grumbled and asked if I want an autograph.  I said no,
I just wanted to say hello, he just kind of blew me off.  I mean, he wasn't
getting paid per autograph.  What a d**k.

Paul

    
    I think that Feller was also one of the people who made racist comments
    concerning Robinson when he came up. I'm sure it was in the 7th inning
    segment of Baseball by Ken Burns when he mentioned some of the views
    of white major league players.

>>    Didn't Paige rip off a fairly impressive winning streak with a couple
>>    of shutouts in the 1948 pennant drive?
>    
>    I _thought_ he was used mostly in relief in '48; that's certainly how
>    my mom remembers him being used.  She probably only saw him once or
>    twice, though...
    
    Okay, for the record, after turning 42 "officially" on July 7 (I'd 
    take that as a minimum; he would then have started pro ball in 1924 
    at 17, as it's doubtful that even Paige could have done so at 13, 
    based on the phony 1910 birthdate), Paige debuted in the majors on 
    July 9.  He pitched in 21 games, started 7, hurled two shutouts and 
    finished the year with a 6-1 record and a 2.48 ERA.  Considering 
    that the Indians won the pennant in the famous one-game playoff with 
    Boston, I'd say that it's likely Cleveland would not have won in 
    1948 without him.  Pretty damned impressive for at least that first 
    year of 1948, I'd say.
    
    As it was, Paige retired with a 3.29 career ERA pitching through the
    age of 47 (not counting those 3 shutout innings he tossed against the
    Red Sox in 1965 at the age of 59-- as I recall hearing it, Yaz got the 
    only hit, a single).
    
    Paige once struck out 22 batters in an exhibition against major-leaguers
    in 1932 (not a strikeout era).  In his younger years, he was not the 
    crafty junkballer of his later days...
    
    glenn
    

Re last dozen or so:

Satchel Paige            PAIGE, LEROY ROBERT
                         B. July 7, 1906, Mobile, Ala.
                         D. June 8, 1982, Kansas City, Mo.
                         Hall of Fame 1971.

             W   L  ERA   G  GS  CG   IP      H   BB   SO  ShO
1948 CLE A   6   1 2.48  21   7   3   72.2   61   25   45   2
1949         4   7 3.04  31   5   1   83     70   33   54   0
1951 StL A   3   4 4.79  23   3   0   62     67   29   48   0
1952        12  10 3.07  46   6   3  138    116   57   91   2
1953         3   9 3.53  57   4   0  117.1  114   39   51   0
1965 KC  A   0   0 0.00   1   1   0    3      1    0    1   0
-------------------------------------------------------------
  6 yrs.    28  31 3.29 179  26   7  476    429  183  290   4

Doesn't EVERYBODY keep a copy of the Baseball Encyclopedia in
their office???

Steve

    To offset SI's 40 most influential, inspirational and 
    innovative sports figures of the past 40 years, 
    one of their writers, Rick Reilly picked 40 for
    the Dark Ages.  This is for the 40 least 
    important figures over that period.
    
    40	Renee Richards
    39	Leroy Neiman
    38	Gerry Faust
    37	ESPN2
    36	Rosie Ruiz
    35	Quintin Dailey
    34	Arazi
    33	Victor Kiam
    32	LaRue Martin (#1 NBA pick in '72 over Bob
                     McAdoo, Paul Westphal and Dr. J)
    31	Ickey Woods
    30	Rudy Martzke
    29	Laura Baugh
    28	Richard M. Nixon
    27	Eddie the Eagle
    26	The 3 "slobs" who got up and stretched at
        a U of Washington game starting the 1st wave.
    25	Jeff & Tonya Gillooly
    24	Ken Burns
    23	Alan Dershowitz
    22	Frank Kush
    21	The Stanford Band
    20	Ted Stepien
    19	Leon Lett
    18	Mark Gastineau
    17	Schottzie
    16	Tony Mandarich
    15	Morganna
    14	John Ziegler
    13	Rudy
    12	Fan Man
    11	Andre Ware
    10	Mario Mendoza
    9	Mitch (Blood) Green
    8	Vince McMahon
    7	Steve Howe
    6	Phyllis George
    5	Chuck Wepner
    4	Bobby Riggs
    3	Larry Brown
    2	Marv Throneberry
    1 	Brian Bosworth
    
    zamboni

    
    You know, this list is kinda fun...
    
>    38	Gerry Faust
    
Still coaching Akron, where the team has gone from OK to dreadful.  Worst
team in the NCAA.
    
>    31	Ickey Woods
    
I wonder what Ickey's doing these days.  It's weird, I was just thinking
about the Ickey Shuffle recently...
    
>    24	Ken Burns
    
At least he wasn't trying to be an important figure...
    
>    21	The Stanford Band
    
I always liked that moment.  Someone in the band should have tackled him,
though.  B^)
    
>    20	Ted Stepien
    
Ah, yes.  The real mistake on the lake...
    
>    10	Mario Mendoza
    
Not really fair, since he did make a significant contribution to the
game, unlike others on the list.
    
    
Joe

Hey, leave Marvelous Marv alone! :-)

The Crazy Met

    I'd add the following to that list:
    
    Chris Chelios
    George Steinbrenner
    The bozo who stabbed Seles
    Donald Fuerh (sp?)
    Fay Vincent
    Bob Probert
    St. John (3:16) :^)
    Buster Douglas
    Ralph Sampson
    Jerry Tarkanian
    
    
    Mark.
    
    

Gary Betteman
Bud Selig

The Crazy Met

    
    
    
    	What did Laura Baugh do to get on this list? I haven't heard of her
    in years????
    
    JimH
    

    
    >        What did Laura Baugh do to get on this list? I haven't heard
    >	of her in years????
    
    
    This is a tasteless pick in that she has fought a courageous battle
    with cancer over the last several years.
    
    I can't think of why she'd be picked other than in her younger days was
    very attractive and a good golfer at the same time.

 Maybe she treated the writer like Janey Pauley treated all they young
 buck Studs at IU that T was tellin' us about..........

 mike

    re: Laura Baugh
    
    According to the article:  "Hundreds of endorsements.  Zero LPGA wins."
    
    Laura isn't the same one who passed away from cancer recently, at least
    I don't think so....
    
    zamboni
    

    Yes, she is the same one.  Yes, she probably did get a lot of
    endorsements and dollars for her looks and personality.  If the writer
    wanted to compare a golfer with Shaquille O'Neil he should have tried
    Jan Stevenson.

	Ickey Woods is selling Cars in Cincinnati, he was on the news in the 
	preseason, for some tragedy or another.

	HTH 

	Turk

    
    Heather Farr is the woman golfer who recently passed away.  Laura Baugh
    was known for her nice set of personalities that she always carried
    with her on the golf course.
    
    brews

    Heather Farr's family is also having quite a time getting any medical
    bills paid by her former employer - PING.  They're in court over this
    now.

>               -< Don't tell me I mixed my heathers and baughs >-

Just don't let it happen again.  It's against all the horticultural
guidelines to do that.

If you mess up again, we'll have to confine you to the study of moss and
ferns for a while....


'Saw

    

    'Saw,
    	While I have your attention and since these days, where you are is
    as good a place as any...
    
    Wasn't there a character in Travis McGee stories by ???(there it goes
    again, a mind is a hell of a thing not to have anymore) named 
    
    		Max Meyer
    
    I noticed this is same, same name of one of our VPs

Since this is the topic on SI.  I thought I would put this in.  If it needs 
to be moved to another topic let me know.

I have the first SI cover that Micahel Jordan appeared on.  It is framed and 
autographed by him.  It is an authenticated memorabilia and has a serial 
number (there are only a few of these, I think 8 total.) I think this one is 
#4.  It comes in a nice memorabilia box.

It is worth $400, asking $350.

Contact: Xanadu::Moraros

It can be seen at ZKO.

This is NOT, I repeat NOT, the prize for winning the soon to come Nexted
Annual Bowl Contest.

TTom

    Aw c'mon ttom...spend some of that gamlin' money
    

Hey it all came in the mail just like its supposed to. I cashed 'em in,
quick. 

I used some of it, though. Mike Heiser was so lavish in his praise  of
Arizona State that I decided to make a small contribution.

Unfortunately, it wasn't tax deductible.

TTom

    TTom, SPROTS Best Sports Investor!