Conference hbahba::cam_sports

>
>    So there is a Wesleyan topic but not one on the 16th/17th ranked
>    Boston College Football Eagles?
>    

Because Wesleyan ROOLZ, and BC, well, BC is just BC.....8^)


>    Unfortunately, B.C. plays ND and West Virginia the next two weekends,
>    to finish out the season 7-4 and out of the national rankings. Not
>    even Flutie could help them!

Yeah, even Wesleyan let down in the last two weeks -- losing to dreaded
Williams and to Trinity.....8^(

    Hey no double-reverse jinxes allowed!!
    
    Actually BC's defense in not as strong as last year's edition.
    I believe they can be run on... we'll see if there's a shootout
    in South Bend.
    
    GO IRISH
    
    MikeL
    

>
>    Doug Flutie is God.
>

Or was that Mick Jagger?

    BC just isn't a very good football team right now.  They don't belong
    on the same field as the Irish.  They'll be lucky to make it a game.

    	The heck with Da Eagles.  Get on that B.U. bandwagon before the IAA
    playoffs start.  Plenty of room still.
    
    				/Don

    BC might give up 100 points when they play ASU in 2 weeks at the Desert
    Classic.

    >  Will B.C. give up 100 points next two weeks?   
    
    Perhaps they will and still win both games.
    
    My scenario for this week is bc getting out to a 3 td lead and nd
    making the mistake of switching to the pass instead of using last years
    game plan of getting speed into bc backfield.
    
    I could see a 43-42 bc win in this one

    If BC can somehow stop NDs running game (which is nearly impossible)
    and force them to pass they have a chance for an upset. They have a
    high powered offense!! They'll need to jump on ND right away to have a
    good lead or else its over. They don't wan't to be behind on points
    with ND. Another thing is BC has to use there quickness against NDs big
    offensive linemen. This is where the big mismatch is for BC. NDs OL
    aren't only big but quick and thats where the game is won. Coughlin
    will have to have a miracle game plan for this game. But for those who 
    are counting BC out is like any other team that ND plays. How many other
    teams can play with ND?? I'd say not to many...BC is still one of the
    best in the country.
    
    
    
                            stig

    Believe me,
    Nobody from ND is counting BC out. Bank on it. Everyone knows what
    this game means for ND and BC. ND wins, it's in the drivers' seat;
    BC goes after #1.
    
    I know BC has a potent offense, but I'll be very surprised if they
    score 43 points.. ND's defense ain't exactly chopped liver.
    I envision a 34-21 type ND win. They have to be "on" tho.
    
    MikeL
    

    What he tells the media is one thing, his team another...
    
    He probably has legit concerns about BC, but he surely believes ND\
    will win. 
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
    Some thoughts from a die-hard bald eagle:
    
    	BC will not win this saturday against ND. Even if they catch ND
    napping and score alot of points, ND's offense is pretty potent, and
    they'll trade scores with ND getting the better of it. I'm hoping they
    play well and leave with their pride intact.
    
    	BC can, and I believe will, beat WVU at the Heights a week from
    saturday. BC totally, and I mean totally, dominated a Virginia Tech
    team that went into Morgantown and lost by a point 14-13 early in the
    season. The final BC-Virginia Tech score was something like 48-34. BC
    was up 28-7 before the half when a desperation pass set up a VT score
    to make it 28-14 at halftime. VT scored a meaningless TD against the
    second defensive unit with a minute and a half left in the game. VT
    could not stop BC at all, all day long.
    
    	So, I think BC ends the season at 8-3, with losses to Miami, ND,
    and North-&@#*ing-Western. That puts them in second place in the Big
    East and, if they don't get humiliated by ND, a pretty decent ranking
    at the end of the regular season.
    

    I pretty much agree.
    
    BC will keep it close. I'd give BC more of a shot if its defense
    were better. They're not bad but average and ND should move the ball.
    I like BC's offense, but I think they'll find it a lot tougher to
    move the ball consistently against ND than they've been used to.
    21 points for BC sounds about right. And I think they have a decent
    shot at West by Gawd Virginny.
    
    
    Any of you BC guys want to hep me get 50 or so tix to nexted year's
    Irish-Eagle match at the Heights??
    
    MikeL
    

    How tuff was it to move the ball?? At will. BC dominated almost all of
    the game. The got ripped up on some calls too!! The score should of
    been a lot worse. So, to those who missed the game don't let the score
    fool you!!! Great game plan by BC...
    
                         stig

    
    
    
    Boy, was I wrong. I never thought they'd move the ball like that! Shame
    on me......
    
    Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea MAXIMA culpa.
    
    Confiteor Dei omnipotenti,................
    
    When BC lost two of its starting DB's toward the end of the 3rd
    quarter, their strategy of forcing ND to pass the ball started to come
    back on them. I haven't enjoyed a football game this much in years.
    Holtz got what he asked for when he rubbed it in last year. I loved the
    onside kick as much as any play in the entire game....
    
    Great effort by ND to come back. Kinda what you would expect from them,
    though.
    
    A very happy bald eagle....
    
    

    What year is Foley in?

    
    Congratulations, don't enjoy it too long, remember you get WVU this
    Friday!!  I speak from experience!! 8^)
    
    The only call that I saw that BC got "ripped off" was the incomplete
    call on the touchdown. Definite touchdown. Other than that, what
    calls or non-calls did you see??
    
    I thought that onside kick call was brilliant. Same as last year's
    fake punt. Gee, wasn't the score 31-17 when the onside kick call
    was made? Think Tom was runnin' it up??
    
    Please think back to last year's game. BC couldn't have stopped BC
    High in that game. Freak occurance. ND did not run it up. It was
    37-0 at halftime, final was 54-7. If ND wanted to run it up, it
    coilda been 100-0.
    
    Now BC obviously used last year as a great motivational tool.
    They certainly controlled play. I honestly thought it was fat lady
    time for ND when it was 38-17. No team has come close to dominating
    ND for more than one quarter this year, never mind 3+ like BC did.
    
    Enjoy thw in, it was well deserved.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
    
    	Foley is a fifth year senior. As is Darnell Campbell.
    
    
    

    did ND make a 2 point conversion after one of the 4th q. TD's?
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    ND got the 2 point conversion to make the score 38-25 at the time.
    Next two TD's were followed by extra points.
    
    MikeL
    

    re 19
    
    The  obvious "intentional downing" call that wasn't called was
    pitiful!! Although, I don't remember if ND scored on that drive.
    
                         stig

    As well as the TD that didn't get called for BC...
    

    
    Are the representatives of the big bowls all not-so-secretly hoping for a 
    Mountaineer win this Friday or am I just paranoid?
    
    Happily_eating_crow_and_hoping_for_more!

    C'mon.
    
    That was not intentional grounding. That's the way McDougal throws 8^)
    Anyhow, it was obviously within legal (??) limits, Becton was at least
    within 8.12345678 yards of the pass...
    
    I mentioned the TD pass. Holtz was quoted at being a tad upset with
    the personal foul call. Says he looked at the film and saw nothing
    that warranted a flag ( supposed overcelebration). Overcelebration??
    
    Please...
    
    Back to the drawing board. Let's see, if OU dumps NU, UF dumps FSU,
    BC beats WVU by 1, er forget Auburn, ah, who does ND play for the MNC??
    
    
    MikeL
    
    

 >>   Back to the drawing board. Let's see, if OU dumps NU, UF dumps FSU,
 >>   BC beats WVU by 1, er forget Auburn, ah, who does ND play for the MNC??
    
    
 >>   MikeL
    
    2 out of the 3 isn't too unlikely IMO.  I predict a Florida win over
    FSU.  BC could certainly beat WVU.  That would leave Nebraska and ND
    for all the marbles in the Orange Bowl.  Of course if all three lost as
    in your scenario, I believe ND would face an extremely talented
    Tennessee squad for the title.
    
     - Bob
    

    Uh, ND might face Florida if FSU,NU,WVU all lose. Florid, especially
    if it beats Alabam in the plaoff (SEC).
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I like 'a's just fine. but working on a laptop
    with a wierd erase key, and well things fall through.
    Besides the Cadets haven't been getting much work lately.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Anyone catch Mike Barnicle's article in Tuesday's Globe?  JD would have
    loved it.
    
    (Copied without permission)
    
    
    		SPARE ME THESE BALDING EAGLES. 		Mike Barnicle
    
    
    OK, it was a wonderful victory Saturday when Boston College beat Notre
    Dame.  And it was a terrific thing to see a young man punch the
    football through the uprights at a moment when the pressure of the day
    and weight of tradition had to be a crushing burden for the lad to
    carry onto the field with five seconds showing on the clock.
    
    It was nice to see the quarterback perform well.  It was heart-warming
    to see this team win the respect stolen from them last year when Lou
    Holtz acted like a moron and ran up the score.
    
    No argument:  Tom Coughlin is a great coach.  No surprise:  His players
    looked, sounded and acted like well-educated, mature gentlemen when
    they could have gloated all over the Irish after knocking them from the
    No. 1 spot.
    
    And, yes, you're right:  It's doubtful you will ever see a football
    game - any athletic event, actually - as exciting as the spectacle
    shown over the weekend.
    
    But, for the love of Gawd, will these insufferable, red-faced,
    beady-eyed, ham-handed BC alumni ever shut up?  Are we going to have to
    listen to two decades worth of verbal replays from these loudmouths?
    
    In the corridor outside Boston Municipal Court yesterday it looked as
    if they were conducting tryouts for the Eagles' cheerleader corps. 
    Guys were pleading felons out at a record rate so they could rush to
    the hallway and yap about the game.
    
    You could not walk into a coffee shop without someone nudging you and
    asking, "How about them Eagles, huh?"
    
    How aboaut them?  They won.  They defeated Notre Dame.  Fine.
    
    They did not cure cancer, lower your water bill, pick up your mortgage
    for the next 10 years, pay your kids's tuition bills, feed the hungry,
    shelter the homeless or take care of every widow and orphan in the
    six-state region.
    
    Good grief!
    
    We are going to overdose on BC stories.  Why, they still show Flutie's
    pass once a month around here.  What do you figure the deal will be
    with the kick?  A 200-year telethon where the screen will be filled
    with obese guys in red and gold polyester whale slacks, yelling and
    cheering while the ball is kicked into the dusk, over and over and
    over.
    
    Harvard won the NCAA hockey title a few years ago.  And BU has just
    finished an undefeated football season.  Stories about those
    achievements weren't that easy to find in the papers.
    
    I repeat:  This has nothing to do with the football team's
    accomplishment Saturday.
    
    It was magnificent.  Fabulous.  Extraordinary.  Unexpected.  Marvelous. 
    Whatever.  You fill in the blank and the description will still not
    match the feat accomplished.
    
    No, mon ami, this has to do with the school alumni.  Why do so many of
    them act as if they had taken a fistful of dumb pills?
    
    Why are they so obnoxious?  Did they learn nothing from the Jesuits,
    who stress humility, independence and quiet discipline?
    
    No wonder they have a problem getting their stadium expanded.  They
    walk around masquerading as jerks.
    
    Why can't they be as generous in their outlook as the kids on the team? 
    All last week, most of the alumni shrugged their shoulders and prayed
    the score wouldn't be as lopsided as it was in 1992.
    
    I don't know of a single Double-Eagle, Triple-Eagle or Pocket-Eagle
    who figured Boston College was going to beat Notre Dame.  The only
    people who felt there was a chance at victory were in uniform.
    
    All of a sudden, though, about quarter past five Saturday aafternoon,
    the area was bloated with know-it-alls.  Guys who had this thing pegged
    all the way.
    
    And it only got worse as Sunday moved into Monday.  It's all anybody
    talked about downtown yesterday, and the talk was not especially nice.
    
    You would have thought the Notre Dame team comprised a pack of child
    molesters.  And that Holtz was a serial killer, perhaps Ted bundy's
    roommate, a guy who hung around with Jeffrey Dahmer, the man who gave
    David Berkowitz his first puppie, the fellow who stood on the grassy
    knoll with a rifle as Kennedy's car approached.
    
    Look, I'm pleased Boston College won.  I watched the game along with
    millions of others.  I found myself rooting for the team that was
    behind and when Notre Dame finally took the lead, I wanted the kid to
    kick the field goal.  No individual should have to fail in a public
    setting like that, and he did not.  Good for him.
    
    But, holy-moley, won't these Eagle lardheads give us a break and shut
    up?  I mean, if they keep this up there are going to be more West
    Virginia fans around here by the time Friday arrives than you'll find
    down in Cabin Creek."
    
    
    
    Lee
    
    
    
    

    	I have to agree whole-heartedly with Barnicle. It was a
    	great game. Period.
    
    	Now, let's get on with life.
    
    	Scott

    Aw, Barnicle's just sore about something that's always present with
    prideful alumni after such a game, no matter where you go.  Because it's
    so unusual, by Boston standards it may seem insufferable.  Try visiting 
    Alabama in November sometime.  At Auburn AL you can be sure that many
    folks didn't even bother going back to their jobs to do their
    celebrating this week...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    Mike Barnicle hasn't had an original thought in quite some time. He
    writes trite, inane, formula-columns which he aims at pleasing some
    and annoying many. He's a Mike Royko or Dave Barry wannabee.
    
    
    There is a class of BC alums (and many who never went there) whom Mike
    Shaughnessy aptly describes as "BC Room-Emptiers". Anybody who ever met
    one of them would appreciate his article, that's the style (formula) he
    employs without deviation.
    
    There has been an awful lot of media attention to BC's win. I
    understand that the New England Sports Museum want Gordon's kicking
    shoe for an exhibit. 
    
    The real losers in all of this are the BU Terriers, who's turnaround
    from a doormat to undefeated is remarkable. The haven't received
    anywhere near the amount of ink they deserve.
    
    Good luck to BU in the playoffs.
    
    

    Bu has received plenty of press coverage, it deserves congrats
    for its season, but BC is Dvision 1A football, the bigtime and they
    just knocked off #1 (sheeit) at home (double sheeit) to my alma mater
    (there goes MNC, triple sheeit), so let BC get the press, they deserve
    it. Helpin' their recruiting I hope.
    
    Listen, I'm a big college football fan (Div 1A), and even tho I was
    not pleased that BC dumped me Irish(quadruple sheeit), it's great
    that BC get the national exposure and drum up some Div 1A
    football interest around here. Plus the win over ND (quintuple? sheeit)
    just made a great rivalry till the year 2004. We'll be ready for
    y'all overconfident victorious bald eagles (sixtuple sheeit) nexted
    October.
    
    Barnicle can go to hail. There's yahoos who support every team.
    Why I mighta known a couple or three who supported my dashed Irish
    (septuple sheeit).
    
    Anyhoo, go BC, croak WVU!
    
    MikeL
    

   There was a time when Barnicle's column was one of the first
  things that I turned to in the paper. But nowadays I rarely
  even bother and when I do read his stuff, it's as if I've al-
  ready read the story before. And I have! He just rehashes the
  same stuff over and over. There's his "Billy Bulger isn't a bad
  guy" story, his "What a hick town Boston is" story, his "Life is
  cheap in <pick a section of the city>", his "Bumbling criminal"
  story, his "Bureaucracy in inaction" story, and his "point out
  the political hacks" story. And half the stuff usually sounds made
  up. Every once in awhile he tosses in one of those "I was just thinking" 
  columns that prove that he's really wasn't. The most annoying thing is 
  that he's a Worcester boy raised in Fitchburg who now lives in Acton 
  and tries to pass himself off as a grizzled veteran of Boston's mean 
  streets. His column ragging on BC fans is just a variation on his
  "What a hick town Boston is" motif. Give me Diane White over Barnicle
  any day.

    Tommy, you forgot his annual Boston Red Sox bashing article.

    well he doesn't sound to so far off on
    a bunch of those things, Tommy. He is wrong about Bulger.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

re: Barnicle

Couldn't agree with Mr. Brydie more on this one.  The first go-around on
his angles seems fresh, it even lasts through the second or third if he
comes up with somethiong new, but nowadays his stuff is boring, boring, boring.

Somewhere I heard (I think it may have even been in ::SPROTS) that the Globe
buys the syndication rights to Royko, and that Barnicle often steals ideas from
his work, unbenounced to the Boston audience.

Worse yet, I've heard him on the radion with Imass.

=Bob=

    Well, I'm a Barnicle fan 90% of the time.  The Royko story is untrue. 
    Barnicle was suspected once of plagiarizing one of Royko's stories, but
    it was never proven true or untrue.
    
    					Steve

    I really don't bother reading any of his articles. I don't let it run
    my life and the way I feel about BC's win. Let us all have a ggod time
    about  BC's year. I think its great!! It brings people and communities
    together. I'm having a great time talking about it. I can't wait until
    today's WV battle. It's gonna be a good one!!
    
                       stig
    

    WVU pulls it out in the end, 17-14.
    
    JaKe

    a sad,sad, day in history...
    
    
            stig

    
    Yabbut even though the final score says it all, I, in between chowing
    down Granma's most excellent food, was impressed/dissappointed in the
    3 failures to score when BC was in da red zone and the way that BC
    dominated UWV.
    
    I kept thinking how big BC cudda won by.....
    
    I remain,
    Porky_the_pigout_kid!
    Kev
    

    On to the CarQuest Bowl to battle the slumping 'Hoos.

    Where's Bob Hunt for this one?
    

    BC went out of there way at the end to avoid a tie and die trying for
    the win.  In fact on the last pass Foley could have completed it to
    about the 10 but instead through it in the end zone.  I believe that
    Coughlin, under the circumstances, simply didn't want to tie as it
    would avail bc absolutely nothing but ruin WVA.
    
    Now as far as I'm concerned ruining WV is fine and dandy and I would
    have preferred getting the ball down to 20 yard line and kicking the
    fg.  I thoroughly do not believe in this avoid a tie at all costs
    mentality being thrown around.  If I can avoid losing by tieing and it
    upsets the other team that's their problem.
    
    The problem with not taking the tie is bc dropped about 7 places in the
    rankings.

    The master plan was that only one (1) team could win this past weekend,
    and the Pats and BC figured it really belonged to BU.
    
    Lee

    
    So let me see, I forget... what bowl is BU going to again?

    the potatoe bowl????
    
              stig

    Back when Frank Leahy, one of MikeL's heros coached BC he was
    DeanHoltzing mightily when Idaho came to town and the Boston Globe had
    a banner headline reading
    
    	Leahy Fears Idaho
    
    The final score of that game was BC 70 Idaho 0.
    
    Ironic that another Boston College (Mac term) faces the mighty men of
    Boise.
    
    Of course Beaming Dean of the Chapel did Fear the Minutemen and rightly
    so - But that's another story

    
    Idaho has a very good team.  BU should be skeered.  I think Idaho won
    the NC (no NMC).
    
    brews

    OhOh,
    BostonCollege/BostonUniversity alert.
    
    Any self-respectin' Terrier fan would have yo' hide, brews, for placing
    that note in the den of their arch rivals(well in hockey and bar room
    brawls).
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
    C'mon Mikey, I was just responding to a previous note (is there a BU
    note?).
    
    brews  BU '75 (who gets tired of telling all the folks around here 
    "NO, it was not my alma mater that beat ND, BC is too skeered to play
    BU")

    I know you was a Masssachooosettter, and thus knew the BC/BU thang,
    jest givin' you a leetle merde.
    
    Speakin' of BU-BC.. Can anyone remember the last BU-BC football game??
    
    MikeL
    

  BC plays ND tonight. In basketball. ND basketball being the equivalent
 of Duke football, this game probably won't be pretty. Too bad BC don't
 play 'em in hockey and baseball then they could sweep 'em in the big
 four sports.

    Nah, BC wouldn't touch ND in baseball. Hockey and Bball yes.
    Prolly be 3 outta 4.
    
    ND's bball program's got only one way to go.. up. and it's a long
    way.
    
    MikeL
    

    
>    Nah, BC wouldn't touch ND in baseball. Hockey and Bball yes.
>    Prolly be 3 outta 4.
    
    I don't know about that, MikeL.  BC almost beat the Red Sox last year
    in Ft. Myers... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    	There are some American Legion teams that could probably beat the Red
    Sox.         
    
    				/Don

    
    
    I know they used to play in the fifties (yes, I'm that old). It
    used to be one of THE games in the Boston sports scene and I went
    to a few of the games. By the early sixties, the games had stopped.
    
    

    I went to a BC-BU game at alumni in 1962 and I do believe it was the
    last.  BU fielded competitive teams right up to about 60,61 then
    started to cut back. 
    
    BU did have some good teams in the 50s and of course had Harry Agannis
    in 52 therabouts.
    
    

    
    Read in the papers (forget which one) that B.C. signed the best 
    high-school qb in the country? (I forget the name).

    Thought I read they signed the top QB in Ohio. Not sure if that
    translates to best QB in country/best high school team.
    
    ??MikeL
    

	BC did get a verbal committ from the best QB in the country...I 
	don't remember his name, but he played for Cleveland St. Ignatius 
	who was ranked #1 by USA today in the high School Football poll.

	Official Signings can not be made until Feb 2.

	Dave

    As most of you know, Tom Coughlin has decided to take the Jacksonville
    Jaguars head coaching job. He notified AD Chet Gladchuck last night.
    
    Coughlin reportedly will be head coach, GM, director of ops, the
    whole magilla. Don't know the details, but I would imagine a
    mill or so per year are in order.
    
    I hope the BC program can find a capable replacement and keep things
    moving forward. 
    
    MikeL
     

    $5 million, 4 years?
    

    I'm not surprised that Coughlin got the job, but complete control?
    It will be interesting to see how he handles the GM role as well.
    
    Mike

$4 million for 5 years.

The Crazy Met

I can't believe that Jacksonville is giving him the whole tamale.  College 
coaches aren't always successes at the Pro level, never mind throwing in the
GM job as well.  He hasn't had any pro experience has he?  I wonder if they'll
move him to the field only once they start playing games.  Hat's off to Tom for
snagging the prize, but it's not the way I'd be spending my money if I was the
owner of the Jaguars.  

This will be a shock to the Jacksonville area.  I've out-laws that live there, 
and they were all pretty much counting on Jimmy Johnson coming to town.  I'll
be interested in hearing their opinions now.

Feel bad for the kids that just signed with B.C.   Wonder how many woulda
signed if they knew Coughlin was taking off?  They're all stuck too, thanks
to NCAA rules.

t

>He hasn't had any pro experience has he? 

As a head coach, no.

But he was on the Giants coaching staff under Parcells, if I remember
correctly.

He turned the Giants down when they offered him the top sport after they
canned Handley......


'Saw

    	I believe that Coughlin was an assistant coach for the Midgets.
    Smart move by Jacksonville to shun Holtz and take somebody who
    can coach.
    
    				/Don

    Has anyone heard whether or not Coughlin has any pro coaching
    experience?
    
    Mark.

    Has Mark said "Do me"?
    

    Dale Arnold almost made me barf when he said on WEEI this morning that
    Coughlin took the job because "it was the best thing for his family". 
    Yeah, right - as if his family had anything to do with it.  I'm sure
    I'd rather raise my family in Jacksonville - the drive-by shooting
    capital of the United States - than Boston.
    
    Coughlin took the Jacksonville job for one reason: to satisfy his enormous 
    ego.  The man wasn't satisfied with anything at BC, so he had his trained 
    dog Chet Gladchuk jump and fetch at every command, from a new weight room
    to upgraded carpeting in his office.  He fought hard to expand the
    stadium, which he got.  He then went out and recruited one of the top 
    incoming freshmen classes in the country.  Then he shows his true colors 
    and bolts.
    
    This is an incredibly classless act by a man hwo only is motivated by
    seeing how big he can inflate his own ego.  And there isn't a better way
    to feed it than get to set up your own NFL franchise from scratch.  Say
    what you want about a guy like Joe Paterno, but he runs a program the
    way it should be run, and has never put his own ego ahead of the
    university, even with the controversial move to the Big Ten.  Coughlin
    shoulda learned something from him.  Too bad for BC he didn't.
    
    NAZZ

  Geez, I'm kind of disappointed that he left B.C. as well, but I think you
guys are going a bit too far. Are you guys saying that every coach in the NFL
is selfish because he's not coaching college for less money or did Coughlin
violate some other unwritten rule?

  In general, when is it ok for a coach to move up from college to pro and when
is it not ok? Was Limbardi a sellout because he left his high school team in
New Jersey and went on to the Giants then the Packers?

  George 

    I'm another one that doesn't understand the uproar.  Granted, I know
    absolutely zilch about Boston College football, but it appears Coughlin
    made an upward move.  He got a great position with a new franchise and
    certainly won't be expected to win right away.  Given the fact that he
    also was named the General Manager, and I can certainly understand why
    he'd move on.  I can understand BC fans being upset because he's a good
    coach, etc., but it appears he made a fantastic career move.
    
    - Rope

    No, the thing about Coughlin is that he turned down other jobs in the
    NFL, including one of the top jobs around in the Giants, and gave every
    indication that he was at BC for the long haul.  They did everything
    for him that he asked, made him the highest paid person on campus, and
    he left them high and dry, breaking a very lucrative and long-term
    contract.
    
    Also, where does that leave the bumper recruiting crop he just signed?
    Many of these kids were coming to BC specifically to play for Coughlin.
    Now they're trapped in a situation that penalizes them because Coughlin
    took the money and ran.
    
    NAZZ

>    I'd rather raise my family in Jacksonville - the drive-by shooting
>    capital of the United States - than Boston.
    
    from what I hear, Boston isn't immune to gang activities.  I bet most
    people would rather live in Florida as well.  That's why the New
    England Snowbirds are always going there in the winter.

    
      It's the kids that Tom Coughlin has just recruited (and the rest
     of the BC players) that get the short end of the stick. I'm sure 
     most of them wouldn't have committed to BC if they knew Coughlin 
     was going to bail. TC doesn't owe BC fans or alums a thing but
     he really does have some sort of obligation to a bunch of kids 
     who made a major life decision based on what Coughlin told them.
     He's cast a cloud over the future of a lot of young kids.

    
    >> from what I hear, Boston isn't immune to gang activities.  
    
       Yeah, but Chestnut Hill is. 
    
    >> I bet most people would rather live in Florida as well.  That's 
    >> why the New England Snowbirds are always going there in the winter.
    
       Most people would rather have Florida's winter climate than ours.
       It's been so cold and snowy this winterthat grandfathers haven't been
       able to use their "When I was a boy stories" because  it's been
       as tough as anything they can make up.

    It sounds to me like Jville simply made an offer that "ol ed" couldn't
    refuse.  It may very well have been unexpected.
    
    bc has no gripes.  He has put them back on the map and left them a
    national power.  His nfl ambitions were public and bc could have kept
    bicknell if doing "the right thing" was their main concern.  But I
    doubt that bc people are going to have a big problem with this.
    
    There definitely is a problem with coaching staff's recruiting and then
    leaving.  But as long as coaches can be fired then they can take new
    positions and hs recruits must use caveat emptor.
    
    I wonder if Barry Gallup is going to be seriously considered for the
    job.  I believe he was runner up last time.

    Yeah, that's a really STUPID rule the NCAA has.  I'd say a good
    amendment to the rule would be to allow kids to transfer without
    penalty if a coach leaves their freshman or sophomore years.
    
    - Rope

  Ok I'm struggling real hard now to understand just how the kids are all that
bad off. As I understand it, most of them have no chance at the NFL. They get a
full scholarship (worth about 10 grand a year at B.C.) to go to a 1st rate
college, play football, get to be stars on campus, travel all over the country,
play on national TV, and generally get treated like gods for 4 years. 

  Because Conklin is not there, they might have to take their bowl game before
Christmas rather than on New Year's day. 

  Now why are the rest of us who had to work our way through college or end up
with 50K worth of College loans suppose to feel bad for these kids? I must be
missing something. 

  George 

    Re: Chestnut Hill
    
    of course that doesn't necessarily mean it will stay that way.  Over
    the last year, even the Compton gangs have realized the fruits of
    moving into Bel Air.

    I thought Coughlin turned the others down because he was just a coach
    there.  Here's he coach+GM.  Sounds good to me.  He did make a
    commitment to the school.  Couldn't the AD hold him to it if he wanted
    to?

    What a bunch a_whiners. 
    
    Tell me who wouldn't have left their current job for a 20-30% pay
    raise, a long term contract, and the chance to be a head honcho 
    (coach and GM) at the highest level of your profession?
    
    I agree with Tommy...the real kick in the pants are to those who've
    signed letters to BC.  He don't owe anyone else a damn thing.
    
    Mark.

>> Ok I'm struggling real hard now to understand just how the kids 
>> are all that bad off. As I understand it, most of them have no 
>> chance at the NFL. They get a full scholarship (worth about 10 
>> grand a year at B.C.) to go to a 1st rate college, play football, 
>> get to be stars on campus, travel all over the country, play on 
>> national TV, and generally get treated like gods for 4 years. 

   They won't be on national tv or stars on campus or treated like
   gods if they stink and they very well could. They're losing a
   big chunk of their offense to graduation as well as Coughlin.
   This year, for maybe the first time ever at BC, BC managed to
   get the kids that had ND, Miami, FSU, etc. on their list. He
   managed to get those kids because BC plays a pro-style offense
   and because BC (Tom Coughlin) beat ND on national tv. The program
   was viewed as comer. Now, Coughlin bails and will be taking the
   cream of his staff with him and BC and the future of its players
   is very uncertain. 

>> Because Conklin is not there, they might have to take their bowl 
>> game before Christmas rather than on New Year's day. 

   There's no law guaranteeing BC a bowl berth. Unless, they've passed
   it since Bicknell left.
    

>   They won't be on national tv or stars on campus or treated like
>   gods if they stink and they very well could. They're losing a
>   big chunk of their offense to graduation as well as Coughlin.
>   This year, for maybe the first time ever at BC, BC managed to
>   get the kids that had ND, Miami, FSU, etc. on their list. He
>   managed to get those kids because BC plays a pro-style offense
>   and because BC (Tom Coughlin) beat ND on national tv. The program
>   was viewed as comer. Now, Coughlin bails and will be taking the
>   cream of his staff with him and BC and the future of its players
>   is very uncertain. 

I couldn't have put it better myself Tommy......


'Saw    

  Ok, so they are not treated like gods on campus. They came for the type of
offense which they might not get, they don't get pampered etc. 

  I'm still trying to see the hardship here. They get to play football, they
get a free education at a 1st rate College, most likely they'll get some bowl
game but if they don't so what, more time to study for finals. 

  If you were saying it's kind of a tough break but they'll live then it sort
of matches what they've lost, but why are people talking like it's a big deal?
They still get a free ride at college but the football perk is a little tainted.

  So what? If that bothers these kids, then at lest they'll get a head start
on getting a life, where's the big loss?

  George

    Hello... anyone home?
    
    

   >> They still get a free ride at college but the football perk is 
   >> a little tainted.

      It's more than a little tainted. It's ordering prime rib and being
      served a frankfurter. It's not a tragedy on the scope of the LA 
      earthquake but it surely makes a huge difference to you when the 
      waiter puts your plate in front of you. Likewise playing for a sec-
      ond tier program versus a national power is sure going to make a big 
      difference to the kids who Coughlin sold on *HIS* program especially
      when they could have gotten that "free ride" to just about anywhere in
      the country but they chose BC specifically because Coughlin was there. 
      It wasn't that long ago that Coughlin turned down the Giants job be-
      cause he had 'unfinished business' at BC. I wonder if he told the
      kids that he recruited that same thing. 
    

well he beat ND and I guess that completed his business :-)

It is the system that is screwed up, not TC. As an earlier note suggested
it would make sense to allow freshmen and sophmores to leave for another
program, without the penalty of sitting out a year,
if the coach that recruited them left the job. Its the same kind of thing
where a coach leaves a program and then 2 years later it gets slapped
with probation.

The Crazy Met

  I understand everything you are saying, it's the intensity that I don't
understand. Sure, all of these kids may have been inconvenienced if B.C doesn't
come up with a good replacement coach. It would certainly deserve an "ah
shucks, missed a shot at the CarQuest bowl, have to settle for Liberty
(B.C was getting into Bowl games long before Coughlin came along).

  If people were saying "Too bad, looks like the program may not be as good and
some of the kids may be inconvenienced but at least they'll still get a good
education", then fine. I'll understand that. 

  What I don't understand is all the intense criticism. Name one thing of
significance that any of these kids will miss without this coach. So far all
I'm hearing about are perks like bowl games and number of wins, nothing
important like quality of education, opportunity to get a job after school,
etc. 

  George 

> nothing important like quality of education, opportunity to get a job after 
> school

When it comes to big time college sports programs that is a very naive 
assumption.

The Crazy Met

    Good morning?!

    George, we're talking football here.  Quality of education has nothing
    to do with it.  If these kids wanted an education in something besides
    football, they'd be going to Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc. (yeah, I know, BC
    is pretty well respected academically).  Going to a big time college
    program coached by a big time college coach greatly increases a players
    chances of being noticed on draft day.  The degree to which you are
    notice (i.e. how high you're drafted) will greatly influence the salary
    you will draw.

RE<<< Note 144.99 by METSNY::francus "/er's heroes:VictorKiam and PatSullivan" >>>

>When it comes to big time college sports programs that is a very naive 
>assumption.

  I don't doubt for one moment that many people in colleges have their
priorities wrong when it comes to college football. What I'm amazed by is that
those priorities seem to be out of wack out here in the real world as well. 

  As for the prime rib / hotdog analogy, I could see where that would be a
disappointment and I might be bothered by it for a whole day, but I doubt I'd
let it bother me a 2nd day, I'd just eat the dam hotdog. 

  I like college football. I like B.C. (my girlfriend went to school there and
we live about 2 miles away). It's a disappointment that they might not win as
many games and that the kids who play will have to grow up 4 years earlier, but
hey, college is suppose to prepare you for the real world and in the real world
you have to learn to deal with changing management. 

  If these kids learn to adjust with something like this that is not all that
important, maybe they will be ready for it when they encounter it in real life.

  George 

    re "intense criticism"; <> la quake.
    
    bc alumni are the crowd that poured beer and jeered and insulted Shawn
    Halloran because he wasn't Doug Flutie - but a darned good college qb.
    
    The only other "fans" that get that mean are Philly fans (pity the wild
    thing).
    
    Okay, maybe I got a little nasty in that '75 k-state loss at prov. but
    Zuff deserved it for not putting in sheehy.

RE             <<< Note 144.101 by 38346::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>

>    George, we're talking football here.  Quality of education has nothing
>    to do with it.  If these kids wanted an education in something besides
>    football, they'd be going to Harvard, Yale, MIT, etc. (yeah, I know, BC
>    is pretty well respected academically).  

  Mac, you're not following the conversation. This is not about football, it
started as a major coach bashing note because a guy quit to go get another
job. It never was a football discussion.

  George

It has nothing to do with our priorities. It has to do with the
reality of big time college sports and what recruits expect.

The Crazy Met

RE<<< Note 144.105 by METSNY::francus "/er's heroes:VictorKiam and PatSullivan" >>>

>It has nothing to do with our priorities. It has to do with the
>reality of big time college sports and what recruits expect.

  Ok, then I understand if they are disappointed. I'm glad they will get a
chance to see how life doesn't end because their football program is not what
they hoped it would be and that they've been mislead by all the fanatics who
have been telling them that football is bigger than life.

  Still my question remains, why bash the coach because he got a better job?

  So what if these kids who have been treated as gods since they were born
have to learn that life is tough 4 years earlier. At age 18 it will probably
be an easier lesson than it will be at age 22 when the NFL tells them to take
a hike.

  George

> Still my question remains, why bash the coach because he got a better job?

agreed on that; TC made the right decision for his career and I suspect
all of us make job decisions based mainly on is it good for us and not
on other factors.

The Crazy Met

  Well said,

  George

    Sounds like Mac watched that Jordan/Bird commercial and identified with
    Sir Charles the most...

    The bottom line is that BC was going to have t face this situation
    at some point no matter the coach. BC is not a nationallly-recognized
    major program yet and it runs the risk of losing coaches to
    better opportunity.
    
    It is *now* whether we'll see if BC can clear this last hurdle.
    It's time for the administration and AD to really continue their hard
    and positive work. Coughlin has laid the foundation.
    Here's hoping they succeed.
    
    BTW, the recruits will survive. 
    
    MikeL
     

    Hey, Life goes on. People come, people go...its how you adjust to these
    life changes that matters. I'm looking forward to what Coughlin will do
    in Jacksonville. I'm sure BC will get a good replacement...
    
                     stig

>  So what if these kids who have been treated as gods since they were born
>have to learn that life is tough 4 years earlier. At age 18 it will probably
>be an easier lesson than it will be at age 22 when the NFL tells them to take
>a hike


I don't think that's ever an easy lesson to learn.  It's no easier at 18
than it is at 22 or it is at 35 when an illustrious NFL career is over.
If it's all you've know, and all you've directed your life towards, it's
always tough -- even when you've prepared for it with other career training.

When the most intense thing in your life goes away, it's the most difficult
adjustment you can make.


It may be that the discussion started out as "why bash the coach for
taking a better job", but there's other issues here, quality issues, and
personally, Mac hit the nail on the head.  

It's not about a free college education, it's about football.  There aren't
many kids out there like the kid in "All the Right Moves" who wants an
engineering degree because he knows there's no 5'8" white cornerbacks in the
NFL.  Kids who were being recruited by BC had at least a chance at making
the big show -- and if they did, a free college education was not their
top priority.

It's their life, it's their way of defining who they are, and I can 
imagine the disappointment and feeling of not getting a fair deal.  It's
definitely ordering prime rib -- I wouldn't say they've gotten a hot dog
yet, but the order (and whatever they get) is going to be some time in
coming.....


'Saw

RE     <<< Note 144.112 by CAMONE::WAY "Horseshoes and hand-grenades, man" >>>

>It may be that the discussion started out as "why bash the coach for
>taking a better job", but there's other issues here, quality issues, and
>personally, Mac hit the nail on the head.  

  I agree completely, this is about other issues and I don't doubt that Mac is
a good carpenter. To an extent it is about football as well, and I also agree
that to these kids football is everything. We agree on all of those points. 

  Where I think we disagree is just how important these things should be to the
public in general. To me, football is a game, lots of fun. If your team wins,
that's great, if not, to bad dem's the breaks, but I'm certainly not going to
lose any sleep over it. If someone else thinks college football is the breath
of life itself fine they are entitled to their opinion but I'm free to
disagree. 

  College is a place to go to learn about life, about science, literature,
people, politics, football, living away from home, surviving on cafeteria food,
toga parties and the like. If it is seen by some as simply a minor league to
the NFL then those people should expect some disagreement when they criticize
coaches for not sticking to the hard core football line. 

  In the real world some times your life changes dramatically because someone
in management leaves. Some times it's better and some times it's worse. Better
to learn that lesson in a college environment than to get surprised by it in the
real world. 

  If there's a problem here, maybe it's that college kids are not allowed to
play where ever they like. I'm all for free agency at the college level, let
the kids go to school and play where ever they like, but to blame a college
coach for taking a once in a life time opportunity to build an NFL team from
scratch makes no sense to me at all. 

  George 

  By the way, prime rib is not good for you, too much fat, too much cholesterol.
You'd be better off if someone took it away and gave you a plate of baked
scrod with veggies and boiled potatoes :*)} 

    See, this is still the sticking point - whether it is a better job.
    
    I guess it's tough to define what "better" means.  Some would say that
    no pro job is as good as a college position.  People like Joe Paterno,
    Tom Osborne, the guy at UCLA, and countless others maintain high
    profile, high quality programs that turn out excellent student athletes
    and compete on a high level year after year.  That was allegedly
    Coughlin's goal at BC, and he was moving toward that goal.  He just 
    abandoned ship in the middle of the journey.
    
    Coughlin in the past 12 months had gouged BC for a contract extension 
    that made him the university's highest paid employee, a contact that
    was extended through the year 2000.  He made himself the focal point
    in the battle to enlarge the stadium.  He turned down countless other
    jobs, both college and pro.  He gave every indication every time he
    spoke on the subject that he had unfinished business at BC and would
    be there for the long haul.
    
    Jacksonville is a unique opportunity.  However, it is also an
    opprotunity to be a losing situation for several years.  For every
    Dallas, there is always a Tampa Bay or a Seattle.  The odds are against
    Coughlin becoming successful before he gets fired.  This reminds me a
    lot of the John McKay situation with the Bucs.  Total control.  Great
    football mind.  Got fired.  The same scenario is likely for Coughlin.
    
    NAZZ

    Coughlin is getting hammered in NY area for his inconsistent comments a
    year ago when he turned down the Giants. The bottom line is simple:
    
    If he had gone to the giants,he would have had to deal with George
    Young on a franchise with high expectations and mucho pressure.
    
    In Jacksonville-he is his own GM and had no expectations for several 
    years,plus great money. It's hard to imagine anyone in College turning
    that down.
    
    

>  Where I think we disagree is just how important these things should be to the
>public in general. To me, football is a game, lots of fun. If your team wins,
>that's great, if not, to bad dem's the breaks, but I'm certainly not going to
>lose any sleep over it. If someone else thinks college football is the breath
>of life itself fine they are entitled to their opinion but I'm free to
>disagree. 

It was never a question of how important it is to the public in general.
We were discussing how important it is to the kids who were recruited by
Coughlin, and had a certain level of expectation, which now has changed.

Personally, I don't think college football is the breath of life, but
if I was 18, had sweated my balls off since the 4th grade playing football,
was recruited to BC with a certain level of expectation surrounding that,
and then see the guy who recruited take a trip South, I might, and probably
would feel differently.


>  College is a place to go to learn about life, about science, literature,
>people, politics, football, living away from home, surviving on cafeteria food,
>toga parties and the like. If it is seen by some as simply a minor league to
>the NFL then those people should expect some disagreement when they criticize
>coaches for not sticking to the hard core football line. 

I've learned more about life since I got out of college than I ever did
IN college.  Had more fun too.

It is a minor league for the NFL -- if you want the harsh reality of it.
Look at it any way you want, but whether or not you choose to see them,
the warts are there...



>  In the real world some times your life changes dramatically because someone
>in management leaves. Some times it's better and some times it's worse. Better
>to learn that lesson in a college environment than to get surprised by it in the
>real world. 

What's to say that college football isn't the REAL world to these kids?
The REAL world is where you are NOW.  And it's no different a lesson in
college.  And it's not necessarily a lesson that makes you better either,
unless you're a person who chooses to accept whatever life gives you.

It's easy to talk about the real world, if you're here and now, and having gone
through college, but I have a bunch of friends who spent their college-aged
years in a place far more real than anything I've ever experienced, and who
never let me forget how lucky I am that a mistake I make here won't get me
killed....  It's all relative....



>  By the way, prime rib is not good for you, too much fat, too much cholesterol.
>You'd be better off if someone took it away and gave you a plate of baked
>scrod with veggies and boiled potatoes :*)} 

Guess you haven't seen any of those reports on the fishing industry lately....

Once in a while, prime rib is great, especially if you're celebrating
something.

'Saw

Right on the button, Dave.  Pretty much tells you what type of person TC is.

What I don't understand is why people expect a higher standard from people 
in sports.  Anyone in any other profession would take a job that gave them 
a 40% increase, given the opportunity, why not a football coach?

=Bob=

Re     <<< Note 144.116 by CAMONE::WAY "Horseshoes and hand-grenades, man" >>>

  I think we are closing in on where we agree and disagree.

>Personally, I don't think college football is the breath of life, but
>if I was 18, had sweated my balls off since the 4th grade playing football,
>was recruited to BC with a certain level of expectation surrounding that,
>and then see the guy who recruited take a trip South, I might, and probably
>would feel differently.

  Exactly, on this we agree. Where we disagree is that I see this as a problem
with the kids where by they have been taught to give football an inappropriate
amount of importance in their life. The sooner they get straightened out, the
better off they'll be.

>It is a minor league for the NFL -- if you want the harsh reality of it.
>Look at it any way you want, but whether or not you choose to see them,
>the warts are there...

  We agree here as well. Where we disagree is that I believe that is fine
except where it conflicts with other parts of the education experience. If a
kid goes to college expecting to be in a smooth running NFL minor league
program and gets his NFL training derailed because not everyone agrees that the
school exists to run the football program then tough luck. 

>What's to say that college football isn't the REAL world to these kids?
>The REAL world is where you are NOW.  

  Once again, no argument. It is real to these kids and for most of them that's
a problem because they are not good enough for the NFL. If a coach leaves and
they learn some of life's lessons in the controlled environment of education
then that's better than learning later. By "real world" I mean that part of the
world where what you do results in something real, not just a grade on a paper
or a win in a college football game. 

  George

  >> Exactly, on this we agree. Where we disagree is that I see this 
  >> as a problem with the kids where by they have been taught to give 
  >> football an inappropriate amount of importance in their life. The 
  >> sooner they get straightened out, the better off they'll be.
 
   And yet you think that college players should be free agents able to ply 
   their trade wherever they like? Pardon me, if I find your reasoning to
   be incredibly inconsistent. Football isn't that important yet kids should
   be able to jump from school to school just to play it where they like. If 
   football was so incredibly unimportant there'd be no scholarships, no big 
   stadiums, we wouldn't even be discussing this issue right now. As Mac said,
   these kids based their decision to go to BC in large part because of the
   football program. It's not mere coincidence that BC knocks off ND, wins
   a bowl game and then has its greatest recruiting class ever. BC has always
   been a good school yet they weren't getting these kids before. And it isn't
   necessarily a matter of wanting to make it to the NFL so much as being a 
   part of a winner with an opportunity to play for a national championship.
   That's something just about every athlete wants. They probably won't have
   that opportunity now. Is that a tragedy? No, not really. Is it unfair that
   they can't bail just like Coughlin did or that he isn't living up to his
   commitments? I think so. 
    

>  Exactly, on this we agree. Where we disagree is that I see this as a problem
>with the kids where by they have been taught to give football an inappropriate
>amount of importance in their life. The sooner they get straightened out, the
>better off they'll be.

And how would that differ from say a kid on a music scholarship?  Say someone
who has put hours and hours a week into playing the piano since they were
in 4th grade?




>By "real world" I mean that part of the
>world where what you do results in something real, not just a grade on a paper
>or a win in a college football game. 

How are those things not real?

Applying your logic, my friends who I mentioned before would say that your
world is not real, because all that you do makes money for someone else,
and what you do is measured in a performance review at the end of every
year.   Compared to their school of hard knocks, your world is no more
real than the one that means so much to these college kids.....

'Saw

RE        <<< Note 144.119 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>


>   And yet you think that college players should be free agents able to ply 
>   their trade wherever they like? Pardon me, if I find your reasoning to
>   be incredibly inconsistent. 

  What's inconsistent. I believe in individual freedom for things important and
not important. If a coach wants to go somewhere else and no contract prohibits
it, let him go. If a kid wants to go play somewhere else let him go. 

  In fact, it's because football is only one aspect of life that this should be
important. Say a kid playing in a big 10 football program decides after 2 years
of arts and sciences that he wants to specialize in physics and that another big
10 school has a better physics department. Why shouldn't he be able to go to
the school with the better physics program and still play football? 

  If someone in the drama club switched schools for a better English program
would he be prevented from playing Hamlet in the school play? If he had great
marks and had earned a National Merit Scholarship would he be denied his
scholarship in the new school? 

  Heck no, let people go where they want and do what they want, as long as they
don't break the law or breach a contract, what's the problem?

  Speaking of which, if the kids really depended on a particular coach being
there and signed with that understanding, they could always take it to court.
If the understanding was too vague to stand up in court, they they have learned
another valuable lesson, always get things in writing.

  George

RE     <<< Note 144.120 by CAMONE::WAY "Horseshoes and hand-grenades, man" >>>

>And how would that differ from say a kid on a music scholarship?  Say someone
>who has put hours and hours a week into playing the piano since they were
>in 4th grade?

  If someone has dedicated their life to music and earned a music scholarship
most likely they would have an easier time switching schools because there
are no rules against going to study music at a different school. Unlike
football, the people who run music programs believe in freedom.

  George

Boy George, you oughta run for President.  You could be the next
Horatio Alger.....

    Keep in mind that the reward Jack Bicknell got for loyalty to BC was a
    swift kick out the door.  It works both ways.
    
    My only gripe with the Coughlin issue is the fact that he didn't give
    Gladchek any heads up when he was contacted by Jacksonville brass 2
    weeks ago.  Other than that, I would have done the same thing.
    
    Mark.

    
    >> In fact, it's because football is only one aspect of life that 
    >> this should be important. Say a kid playing in a big 10 football 
    >> program decides after 2 years of arts and sciences that he wants 
    >> to specialize in physics and that another big 10 school has a better 
    >> physics department. Why shouldn't he be able to go to the school with 
    >> the better physics program and still play football? 

       Yeah, that's real life, George, a football player xferring to get 
       into a better physics program to better his chances at the Nobel.
       If a player wants to xfer because his coach bailed before his fresh-
       man year or the school is going on probation due to no fault of his
       own, yeah, let him transfer without penalty but I don't see how
       telling him he doesn't have to make a commitment and live up to 
       it, better prepares him for real life.

RE        <<< Note 144.125 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>I don't see how
>       telling him he doesn't have to make a commitment and live up to 
>       it, better prepares him for real life.

  It prepares him for real life in the United States and just about any other
free country.

  Like it or not, the way the world works is that if you don't have a deal in
writing, you have a shaky deal at best. People are pretty much free, in most
endeavors, to go where they want when they want, even pro sports.

  Commitment is not that significant any more. It's been replaced by a system
based more on flexibility and versatility.

  George

    I can't believe this debate. Coughlin's decision was a no-brainer. 
    All things considered(the BC program,his record,his offer,his
    expectations) he is making out like a bandit.
    
    Paterno would have given up far more to go to New England when offered
    that job in the 70's. MacKay gave up a great program to leave USC for
    Tampa. Those were two coaching legends who were offered less to give up
    more than Coughlin.

>       Yeah, that's real life, George, a football player xferring to get 
>       into a better physics program to better his chances at the Nobel.
>       If a player wants to xfer because his coach bailed before his fresh-
>       man year or the school is going on probation due to no fault of his
>       own, yeah, let him transfer without penalty but I don't see how
>       telling him he doesn't have to make a commitment and live up to 
>       it, better prepares him for real life.

Tommy, 

Don't you realize?  You've just entered The George Zone, where the illusion
of reality is defined by George.....


hth,
'Saw

>  Commitment is not that significant any more. It's been replaced by a system
>based more on flexibility and versatility.

Depends. 

Everything that I do here everyday is based on commitment.  In fact,
most of the things in my life right now are based on commitment.  And if
people who make the commitment don't honor it, or live up to it, the rest
of whatever group it is deals with that very quickly, very quietly, 
and very effectively.

'Saw

     <<< Note 144.129 by CAMONE::WAY "Horseshoes and hand-grenades, man" >>>

>Don't you realize?  You've just entered The George Zone, where the illusion
>of reality is defined by George.....

  If you can't beat him with logic, start the ad hominem attacks.

  A good argument doesn't make reference to the guy on the other side of the
debate.

  George

>  If you can't beat him with logic, start the ad hominem attacks.
>
>  A good argument doesn't make reference to the guy on the other side of the
>debate.

If you're looking for a good argument, go someplace else.  You'll never
find a good, or a fair argument in here.   

We'll attack everything about anyone in here, excepting perhaps their mothers,
and sometimes even that's not sacred....  Hell, even Ray Charles isn't
sacred....


'Saw

    Sorry, George, but even here, some logic and reason is expected.

    clarinews@clarinet.com articles by Mon, 21 Feb 94:

--------
Subject: Coughlin Named Jaguars Coach
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 94 17:10:21 PST
 
	JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) -- Last year, he had a chance to coach
one of the most prestigious franchises in sports -- the New York
Giants.
	Tom Coughlin said thank you very much, and stayed at Boston
College.
	Now, given the chance to coach the Jacksonville Jaguars, one of
the newest franchises in sports, Coughlin said thank you very much,
and jumped at the chance.
	``This is once in a lifetime opportunity,'' Coughlin said at a
news conference Monday. ``I have studied the opportunity in great
depth and look forward to the challenges of establishing a team
from the ground up.''
	Contract terms were not disclosed, although the Boston Globe
reported Monday that Coughlin will receive $4 million over five
years, making him the highest paid rookie coach in NFL history.
	Team president David Seldin would say only that the Jaguars have
a long-term commitment to Coughlin.
	Coughlin was offered the job Saturday and accepted it a day
later. He said he first talked with Jaguars officials about two
weeks ago, and ``I began to actively share their vision.''
	Coughlin promised to build a team of which Jacksonville can be
proud. The Jaguars begin play in 1995.
	``I don't believe in miracles,'' he said. ``I don't believe in
shortcuts.''
	Coughlin said he will move to Jacksonville as soon as he can
wrap up his work at Boston College. He said there is a ``good
possibility'' he may bring some of his Boston College assistant
coaches to the Jaguars.
	He said his first priority will be to hire a staff. He hopes to
have a scouting team in place for the 1994 NFL and college seasons.
	Coughlin's responsibilities go beyond coaching.
	``We will not have a general manager,'' said J. Wayne Weaver,
the Jaguars' owner, who added Coughlin and his staff will have
``strong authority in the player personnel area.''
	``You can't hold him to winning on the field and tell him who
his players are,'' Seldin said.
	Coughlin did not make any recommendations for his successor at
Boston College and said it would be difficult to talk to his
players Tuesday.
	In Boston, Chet Gladchuk, Boston College athletic director,
wasn't happy about Coughlin's move.
	``He did not fulfill his commitment to Boston College,''
Gladchuk said Monday.
	He said he hopes to have a new coach approved by the
university's president within four weeks but declined to identify
possible candidates.
	Boston College has a policy against disclosing contract
information. However, it had been widely reported that Coughlin
signed a new five-year contract at the end of 1993 with the school.
	Coughlin's hiring came as a surprise since his name had not been
mentioned previously. The Jaguars interviewed Minnesota defensive
coordinator Tony Dungy and Notre Dame coach Lou Holtz last week.
	Coughlin was 21-13-1 at Boston College in three years, taking
the Eagles to bowl games the last two years. He went 4-7 in his
first season after succeeding Jack Bicknell.
	His biggest triumph came in a game that cost Notre Dame the
national championship -- a 41-39 victory over the top-ranked Irish
last fall.
	Coughlin held assistant coaching jobs with the NFL's
Philadelphia Eagles, Green Bay Packers and New York Giants before
going to Boston College. He turned down the Giants coaching job,
saying he simply wanted to remain at Boston College
	The Waterloo, N.Y., native was a wing back on Syracuse
University teams that included future Hall of Famers Larry Csonka
and Floyd Little.
	His coaching career began at Rochester Institute of Technology,
where he was the coach from 1970 to 1974. He returned to Syracuse
and was offensive coordinator there from 1977 to 1979 before
becoming quarterbacks coach at Boston College under Bicknell in
1980.

>    Paterno would have given up far more to go to New England when offered
>    that job in the 70's.
    
    Whether you agree with his decision or not, Coughlin was not offered a
    better deal than Paterno was by the Patriots relative to the times.  
    Paterno was making about $25K/year when Billy Sullivan offered him a 
    million-dollar deal including an ownership stake in the Pats.  Paterno 
    even accepted the offer initially, then changed his mind in the middle 
    of the night only hours after telling Sullivan that he'd take the job 
    and would come to Boston to finalize the details the next day (of course 
    hours was all it took for Billy-- never one to control his emotions-- 
    to blabber to the entire world that he'd nailed down Paterno).
    
    At the time, Paterno did not have the financial security that Coughlin
    does now regardless of whether he had decided to go to Jacksonville or 
    stay.  This is as a result of the tremendous growth in sports since 1972, 
    college and pro.  In hindsight, Paterno made the right choice, but only 
    because of the resulting prolonged success of an upgraded program that 
    was no sure thing at the time.
    
    I'm not really upset that Coughlin has decided to leave.  That's life
    in the big city, and has become the norm in these type of deals.  But 
    nor will I ever again regard him as this classy individual that I
    thought him to be as late as one month ago, when he dispelled these
    rumors and reiterated his commitment to BC.  Likewise, I'm sure he'll 
    be able to go on without the support of New England fans.  I think the
    Ninj summed it up pretty well a long while back when asked what his
    reaction would be if John Calipari were to pack up and leave at the
    first better opportunity:  best of luck to you coach, and don't let 
    the door hit you on the way out...
    
    glenn
    

Penn State upgrading? Weren't they undefeated in 1969??

The Crazy Met

    
> Penn State upgrading? Weren't they undefeated in 1969??
    
    Yes, they upgraded.  They were undefeated in 1968, 1969, and 1973 but
    they weren't playing a bigtime national schedule and as a result they
    weren't winning championships.  When Paterno turned down the Patriots 
    he had been a college head coach for all of 6-7 years, and he was no
    sure thing to become a living, breathing institution at Penn State.
    Laugh if you must but Tom Coughlin's current situation at Boston College
    was not dramatically different.  He's that good a coach, and the
    program was growing in that kind of prestige.  Again, it's his choice to
    leave, and I would not condone any legal action or other pressures to try
    and stop him from going, but if you simply took the man at his word
    (without trying to subjectively interpret his intentions from his words
    in some kind of a career game), then he pretty much turned out to be a
    liar.  I don't know how else you'd put it.  I don't know, that probably
    puts him in the company of 95% of all coaches, but it's still true.
    
    glenn
    

thanks for the info. didn't know when Paterno got to Penn St. , etc.

The Crazy Met

  Way back in 68, the Steeler's also tried to lure Paterno into the
  NFL coaching ranks. When he turned em down, the Steeler's ended up
  signing some guy named Chuck Noll, who was basically an unknown 
  name at the time. He turned out to be better than average.

	Keith

    BC... Tied at 77 with Pit lasted night... Abrams misses two straight
    lay-ups... Then with 3 seconds left the inbound pass goes to Abrams..
    He takes a 25 foot-off-balance shot at the buzzer... Nothing but
    net....BC wins 80-77....
    
    REK

    Congrats to the academically-minded Boston College Eagles for being
    shut out in the Big East Academic football team.  Even Miami had one
    player on the team!  Guess that all goes with becoming a football
    powerhouse.
    
    My final say on Coughlin:  he did what he wanted to do and said the
    hell with everyone else.  His excuse for not meeting with his team on
    Monday and telling them as soon as possible was that Monday was a
    holiday!  Huh?  What's that got to do with holding a team meeting?
    Would the kids be too busy celebrating President's Day to hear about
    your plans to leave?  The man cares about one thing - his ego and using
    football to satisfy it.  B.C. should be glad to be rid of him and
    should look for a coach that will bring some integrity to the program
    as well as football expertise.  You can have both, ya know.
    
    NAZZ

    Ya know,
    
    Even thgough I disagree with the negative analysis of Coughlin, I gotta
    admit I'm getting a short chuckle outta this.. whatever happened to
    those few yahoos (radio, media, SPROTS) that canonized St. Tom (hello
    Dale Arnold) while making Lou Holtz out to be the second coming
    of Lucifer.
    
    MikeL
    

    Well Dale's still supporting him but the "yahoos" were definitely in
    fine form.  One guy said Coughlin was nothing but another Leahy which,
    mike, in inside-eagle-speak apparently is a gross insult.
    
    Personally Leahy is before my time but his were the last great bc teams
    until the flutie era.  It was BC and Gladchuck that made the decision
    to hire a guy who was looking to make a rep for himself so he could get
    a head job with nfl.  He then turned down jobs and was (apparent to
    me)ready to stay until a blockbuster came.
    
    I say, Thank you Tom for getting us back and beyond in football.  If
    you're a Leahy well some might not consider that an insult.
    
    And Mike, I would guess the reason Holtz turned down the jags was that
    they couldn't match what he was making at nd (reminds of why u of las
    vegas players never came out for the draft).
    

    NAZZ, I'm intrigued by the remarkable contrast in your opinions of Tom
    Coughlin versus Rick Pitino (considering his track record, doing to
    Providence *exactly* what Coughlin did to BC, even more blatantly if
    anything), and between Kentucky and Boston College in general.  There's
    not any partisanship at work here, is there?  ;-)
    
    glenn
     

    Actuaaly bill, I wouldn't have been surprised or upset if Holtz
    had taken the Jags job. The man has paid his dues sat ND and reset
    the program *honorably* The program will thrive which is my point
    with BC. I do understand the emotional reactions of BC fans/alums
    who feel that Coughlin let them down and had unfinished business
    at BC, but the foundation is there.
    
    My chuckle is not directed at the JoeAverage BC fan(remember I like the
    Eagles), but at those who canonized Tom prior to this and now want
    to crucify him. Arnold canonized him, and while he's not crucifying
    him, correctly IMO, states that Coughlin is honorable but the same
    as most college coaches which is *exactly* my point.
    
    Now about Leahy. I shake my head when the crusty old BC fans (not you
    bill 8^) cry that Leahy let them down. Bullnutrasweet. Leahy built
    BC into a national power, took them to a victory in the Sugar Bowl
    and set the foundation. He went back to his alma mater, Notre Dame,
    to fulfill a lifelong dream, to follow his old coach Rockne. He had
    an understanding with the BC administration. Shoot, if the old
    codgers want to blame someone, blame the then 1940's AD and
    administration for not seizing the reins and moving forward.
    That is *exactly* what Gladchuck has to do.
    Oh, and these old BC codgers don't say boo about Chet the Jet saying
    sayonnara to Tulane to return to his alma mater to fulfill a
    lifelong dream do they. 
    Neither man is/was wrong so the BC septos and octos should shaddap.
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S. Now glenn, Paterno don't get off so easy. We all know that Joe
    could not *fashion-wise* move up to hip NE in the early 70's.
    Boys' regular haircuts, flood pants, white socks and WWII glasses
    were just not de rigeur me friend.. Imagine the scandal. Joe
    woulda been platform-shooed outta town..
    
     

    Pitino made a huge mistake in going to the Knicks.  In retrospect, he
    knows it.  He was young, somewhat immature, and was lured back to the
    bright lights of home.  He is a New Yorker, you know.
    
    There is no comparison between what he did and what Coughlin did. 
    Coughlin is about 15 years older than Pitino was when he left
    Providence.  Coughlin is not from Jacksonville; in fact, he may never
    have been to that city before he went down to talk contract.  ALso,
    Pitino did not leave one of the best recruiting classes in the country
    for the Knicks.  He did not get Providence to enlarge its stadium, pay
    him more than anyone else in the university, upgrade its weight room,
    etc. etc.  
    
    In sum, Pitino did what he did partially from maturity, partially from
    a desire to go home, and partially to coach one of the true glamour
    franchises in sprots.  Coughlin had none of these reasons - his only
    reason, as I've stated before, was to satisfy his out of control ego.
    
    NAZZ

Nope Nazz, Pitino became incredibly attractive for a school like Kentucky in
part because he did a good job with the Knicks. Sure, they never were serious
contedners but he got them to the 50 win mark and used the 3 as a weapon
to compensate for weaknesses on the team.

The Crazy Met

    
    I respect your personal opinion on both of these coaches, NAZZ, and I 
    hear you about Pitino's move to the Knicks probably being a mistake.
    Everyone is entitled to a mistake, if this even was one.  Still, I 
    can't agree that the circumstances were that different from Coughlin's.  
    Feel free to set the record straight if I have any of this wrong, but I 
    distinctly recall that in the course of *one* short off-season, Pitino 
    went to talk to the Knicks (which was fine, no problem), came back to 
    Providence and signed a lucrative extension with the school saying that 
    that was where he and his family wanted to be, then changed his mind 
    within a month and left for the Knicks.  He didn't coach a single minute 
    for Providence under that new contract that he said was so personally 
    satisfying!  I enjoyed watching Providence basketball under Pitino and 
    I know I was very disappointed...  
    
    I feel the same way about Coughlin and the marked difference between his
    public statements and his actions.  The contract situations are
    similar.  I don't hold the stuff about the stadium and the facilities
    against him, though, because we'd both be kidding ourselves to say that
    Coughlin betrayed BC on those issues.  The adminstration wanted those
    upgrades with or without Coughlin.  They're not stuck with it; they're
    actually indebted to him for being successful enough so that they could
    force the expansion issue in the community.  If Chet Gladchuck utters 
    one peep about being stranded with the program upgrades that Coughlin 
    wanted, he truly is a hypocrite, because he wanted every one of them
    too.
    
    glenn
     

    C'mon Glenn.  You saying you've never changed your mind about an issue. 
    Let alone the fact it's a huge career decision!  Give the man a break,
    he's human!
    
    - Rope

    I agree with you re. Gladchuk and the general big-time improvements
    to the BC program.  And I agree that Pitino left Providence under less
    than ideal circumstances.  However, I must reiterate that Pitino was in
    his early 30s, not his late 40s like Coughlin.  And Pitino was going
    home to New York.  There is a great appeal to coaching the Knicks.
    
    The only appeal to Coughlin for coaching the Jaguars is that he gets to
    run the show, which he wouldn't have a chance to do with the Giants,
    for example.  This allows him to build a program in his own image,
    which probably is the only situation that could satisfy that massive
    ego.
    
    NAZZ

    
>    C'mon Glenn.  You saying you've never changed your mind about an issue. 
>    Let alone the fact it's a huge career decision!  Give the man a break,
>    he's human!
    
    Uh, I think I explicitly mentioned that, Rope.  I don't hate Rick
    Pitino, I really don't...
    
    glenn
    

    Nazz,
    	One point you're not addressing.  Ed came to bc and told gladchuck
    he would do his best to get bc back and hope his success would entice
    an nfl team to pay him the bucks.
    	Gladchuck and bc knew this.  Ed's (sorry I knew him before as
    Ed)/Tom's success finally translated to nfl riches.
    
    	The other point has to do with intentions.  I truly believe this
    jag offer was unanticipated and unprecedented.  I doubt that he ever
    talked to one recruit believing that he wouldn't be coaching bc next
    year.  His son was a junior at walpole and will have to go to a new hs
    football program in jville, that would indicate his desire to stay at
    bc for awhile.
    
    	Yeh, the bc alums are furious, I know that crowd very well, give me
    a umass alum anytime.  

    >> I don't hate Rick Pitino, I really don't...
    
    Okay, fair enough.  I've got an extra poster of him if you'd like then.
    
    :-),
    
    Rope

    Being mostly a RON, I must say something about this situation. I have
    been a season ticket holder for 7 or so years. I was optomistic when
    Coughlin was signed. I have sinced gained alot of respect for Coughlin
    and what he has done with the program.
    
    I agree with some of Nazz's comments, Coughlin could of at least met
    with his Team before announcing his New Committment. Thanks and SEE YA
    Tom.
    
    My only hope now is for BC to capitilize on Coughlin's recruiting,
    program and stadium upgrades and land a coach that is a good if not
    better than Coughlin.
    
    Dave (hoping I don't have to see the 80's Eagles Teams again)
    
    
    land a Coach that at a minimum is as talented as Coughlin.

    Unconfirmed report has Dan Henning as the new head football coach.
    
    
    
    Brian
    

    wasn't McPhereson in the running?

RE         <<< Note 144.156 by USPMLO::GILLIGAN "The skipper too...." >>>

>    Unconfirmed report has Dan Henning as the new head football coach.
    
  What's this guy's background? Where's he from?

  George

>  What's this guy's background? Where's he from?

You're shitting us, right?

Henning was a San Diego, and Atlanta, and was most recently employed
by the Detroit Lions, where he took the fall for Fontes this year......


'Saw

    
> Henning was a San Diego, and Atlanta, and was most recently employed
> by the Detroit Lions, where he took the fall for Fontes this year......
    
    I think he is also from New England originally; his brother is a 
    newscaster on one of the local stations (Channel 4?).  By college 
    standards, I think this guy knows what he's doing, technically.  You 
    never know about the desire to recruit successfully.  I could live with
    this... 
    
    glenn
    

RE              <<< Note 144.159 by CAMONE::WAY "Aces and Eights" >>>

>>  What's this guy's background? Where's he from?
>
>You're shitting us, right?

  I realize it's more common in this case to say something like "football is
not a sport", but when I don't know I'd rather just ask.

  :*)}
  George

Yep, local guy.  At least two brothers around.
John the newscaster and (mumble) who used to teach
government at Maynard High School and served as
chief public relations flunky for Wang Laboratories
in the late 80s.
dr.a

|>You're shitting us, right?
|
|  I realize it's more common in this case to say something like "football is
|not a sport", but when I don't know I'd rather just ask.

No, you're supposed to reply 

	"Do me"

or something like that....;^)



Anyway, Henning wasn't all that great if I remember, when he was 
in San Diego, and (I must be getting old, or have done too many drugs)
but wasn't Henning dumped in Altanta in favor of The Genius Gerry Glanville?


'Saw

  So how's his record in college?

  George

>  So how's his record in college?
>
>  George

I couldn't say off the top of my head, since I wasn't really aware of
Henning in the college ranks.  I first noticed him in the NFL.

I could try and look it up (too bad Ninj isn't around any more, he'd
know in a heartbeat).



'saw

    
    I don't think Henning was ever a head coach in college, at least not 
    in Division 1-A.  Came up through the NFL assistant coaching ranks,
    finally as an offensive coordinator (wasn't he with the Redskins at one
    point?) before becoming head coach.  If he actually does take in the BC 
    job, in a short while we'll probably know more about him than we ever 
    wanted to...
    
    glenn
    

    Wasn't he also a head coach for the St. Louis Cards?

    As heard on WEEI earlier this evening, Fr. Monan of BC announced,
    "On behalf of the University, I'd like to introduce the new
    head football coach at Boston College, Dan Topping."
    
    Sheesh, ah know they's scramblin', but hiring a_ex-Yankee
    owner cadaver is purty desperate....
    
    MikeL
    
    P.S. the above was no joke. Fr. Monan actually said that..
    

"I see only one problem for him (Dan Henning)
at Boston College.  He will never be able to
beat Notre Dame.  That only happens once.
Never again.  He must understand that."

			- Joe Theismann

I'm not much of a BC fan, but I'd love to see
Joe eat those words.

dr.a

great p-name Dr. A!!!!!!

;^)

If it's Henning it's a step backwards for BC imo. The guy's too old
for the NFL, how's he goign to relate to kids? He's not a strick disciplinarian
so he ain't going to get their attention. Too bad BC went for a name instead
of someone with talent.........

mike

    dr.a,
    I hope everyone realized Theisman was tongue in cheek. Didn't he
    once play for Henning at the Skins? Joe was just puttin' the sly
    whammy on him.
    
    And mike,
    You don't think Paterno's a disciplinarian? Guess again..
    I think Holtz did mighty fine at Arkansas and Minnesota also,
    bringing those programs back. If it's "just ND" how do you explain
    Faust?
    
    MikeL
    

    	Henning's Bio from the Herald
    
    	Born June 21,1942
    	Grad ge ated Bill & Mary 1964, Ranked 14th in passing yardage
    
    	Played for Chargers 1964 and 1965 .. finished career with Norfolk
    	of the Continetal league in 1967.
    	
    	Coaching Career
    	1968-70 QB and Receivers Coach Florida State
    	1971 Offensive Coor. Virginia Tech.
    	1972 QB and Receivers Huston Oilers
    	1973 Offensive Coor. Viginia Tech.
    	1974 QB and Receivers Florida State
    	1976-1978 QB and Receivers NY Jets
    	1979-1980 QB and Receivers Miami Dolphins
    	1981-1982 Top Ass. to Joe Gibbs Skins
    	1983-1986 Head Coach Atlanta Falcons
    	1987-1988 Top Ass. to Joe Gibbs
    	1989-1991 Head Coach San Diego
    	1992-1993 Off. Coord. Detroit Lions
    
    	No listing of his record as a Head Coach.
    
    	Later,
    		Dave	
    

 Mike, if you reread what I wrote, I stated that I thought that Paterno
 was a disciplinarian but I might be wrong, just covering my butt.

 You know how alot of folks can't say they're sorry, well that's how
 I feel about Holtz. He may have done good things at Arkansas and
 Minnesota but I ain't going to say nothing about it other than there
 were rumors of impropriaties. Sure they haven't been substantsiated
 but Jennifer Flowers rumors also disappeared quick too.......

 Ah yes Gerry Faust, the golden years of ND! I do miss em....

 mike

    Just curious,
    
    This is the last season for Fab Four (Curley, Abram, Huckaby, Eisley). 
    Except for Danya Abrams, I don't see anybody of impact for the
    next-year Eagles. Are they going to be "bad" again for another 3-4
    years? Who is coming next year? Any "big" prospects? 
    So, what is future for BC BB?
    
    Simon
    

	Next year will be the infamous "rebuilding" year for the Eagles ...
	but the future doesn't look bad at all.

	In addition to this years freshman Danya Abrams, BC will have
	highly recruited Chris Herron (sp) and Bill Curley's younger
	brother Mickey coming in as freshman, plus the BU transfer who's
	name slips my mind at the moment.

	I doubt (hope?) that they will not return to the days of when this
	senior class were freshman, but I wouldn't be expecting another
	20+ win season next year.

	Vinny

    The BU transfer's name is Bevan Thomas, a 6'8"'er who's supposed to be
    a player.
    
    Redmen Phil
    
    

    Thomas will be a pro - he's the real deal.  If he can stay eligible,
    he and Abrams will be an awesome forward duo.  The question is, can
    Paul Grant or Mickey Curley play center?  BC will be in transition
    nexted season, but should be strong for a couple of years after that.
    
    NAZZ

    Who would ever believe!! BC upsets NC...
    
                 stig

    Let me be the first to climb on board. Wish I was in New England to
    hear some of the comments: 
    
    UMASS and Providence (in that order) the regions darlings both go out
    quickly while the underacheiving bums from Chestnut Hill are now the
    darlings. Jump on board quickly. The plane for Miami leaves soon.

    Thanks,  just what we need.
    
    NOT!
    
    NOT!
    NOT!
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Seriously though. BC played an exceptonal game; the real irony of the
    bitching by UNC is that the flagrant foul is what revved them up and
    got them to a tie game. BC came through in the crunch.
    
    I know that it will be tempting for folks in NE to get caught up in the
    exctitement of a local team beating the odds. However, the next game
    BC plays is against Indiana; Indiana may not be as strong as they have
    been in the past, but they actually have a coach that can coach. I
    don't like Knight's style but he knows how to coach a team and win the
    real tight games. 
    
    If BC does get by Indiana and plays UConn all bets are off. When 2 Big
    East teams meet the odds and point spreads should be thrown away. That
    is the type of matchup that has the potential to rival some of the
    great NCAA tournament games of the past.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    
        I'm in!

    
      And people laughed when I picked BC to go to the title game...
    
     Granted they're a long way from playing for the title but I didn't
    pick BC *just* out of blatant homerism. The UMass team that went to 
    the Sweet 16, the BC that last went to the Sweet Sixteen and this year's 
    team that's in the Sweet 16 all have one thing in common and that's 
    that they are/were all senior led. That's was this year's UMass team's
    biggest detriment - no senior leadership.
    

>    Seriously though. BC played an exceptonal game; the real irony of the
>    bitching by UNC is that the flagrant foul is what revved them up and
>    got them to a tie game. BC came through in the crunch.
    
    The thing I didn't like about the play was that Abrams had a decent
    enough angle on Phelps and actually drove through the ball first. 
    Abrams was in good enough position to prevent the easy layup; the
    extra emphasis was unnecessary, and only served to fire a dead Carolina
    team up.  Still, because it wasn't a blindside job to the head, I
    didn't think it warranted an ejection.  I heard Stackhouse's complaints 
    about BC "cheap shots", but that one play was all I saw; BC generally 
    won the game outside with the 3-point shooting (until Curley stepped up
    big in the final minutes).  Also ironically, after BC finally squelched 
    the 14-point comeback run, it was BC that benefited from rough Carolina 
    play.  First the follow-up intentional foul to Abrams, and then that huge 
    huge play where Curley stood in and took one of Montross' extrananeous, 
    unnecessary (Montross was in no danger of losing the ball) elbows to the 
    chops.  BC regained possession, put Montross on the bench with 4 fouls
    (opening up the inside for Curley) and then converted to take back the 
    lead all from that one foul call.
    
    I couldn't believe that Smith didn't call a timeout earlier when BC 
    re-took that second 7-point lead late.  That was the point in the game 
    where I expected UNC to take control because of their depth and fresh 
    legs, but instead BC hit a couple of big hoops and a few dog-tired 
    Carolina players stood around before making some very bad shot decisions.
    I don't want to use it as another lame opportunity to bash Dean Smith
    (he did make some mistakes) but for most of this game not only did 
    Carolina appear uninspired (BC whupping them on the boards in the first
    half was a disgrace), but it also looked like they didn't know what 
    they were supposed to be doing half the time.  They never did really 
    pressure the 3-point shot even after they came out of the zone; if 
    Abram and Eisley hadn't cooled off on their own and started missing 
    them in the final minutes it might not have even been so close...
    
    glenn
    

	Except for the game's opening tip, which Curley didn't even make
	an attempt for, he just flat outplayed Montross.  Montross seemed
	to be out of position for practicly every rebound.  Great job of
	boxing out by Curley and Abrams the entire game.

	I picked UNC to loose in the next round against Indiana, but this
	will do nicely.


	billl

>    I don't want to use it as another lame opportunity to bash Dean Smith
>    (he did make some mistakes) but for most of this game not only did 
>    Carolina appear uninspired 

C'mon Glenn, we know you want to 8^) and why waste such a good opportunity.

Every one I know picked UNC to go all the way, and it's kind of neat
to see them go out early......


'Saw
    

    The NCAA torunament results have shown once again how meaningless these
    pconference tournaments have become. In fact the best results would
    have been obtained by betting AGAINST anyone who did well in the
    tourney and FOR anyone who did badly. Observe:
             Champion /NCAA wins                       
    Big 8-   Nebraska (0)
    Big East-Providence(0)
    SEC-     Kentucky (1)
    ACC-     UNC(1)
    A10      UMASS(1)
    
    Now look at these teams from the same leagues with number of conference 
    tourney wins. Of course all these are still alive.
    
    Big 8-   Missouri(1),Kansas(1)
    Big East-BC(0),UConn(1),Syracuse(0)
    SEC-     Arkansas(1),Florida(2)
    ACC-     Maryland(0),Duke(1)
    Great MW-Marquette(0)
    
    Add to that Michigan and Indiana from the big ten which stumbled badly
    down the stretch and Arizona from the Pac 10 which lost its last game
    and you get the picture. The end of season loss seems to remobilize the
    team for the NCAA's which are the only games that really count.
    
    
    Only Purdue and Lousiville were playing well at the end.

    
> Every one I know picked UNC to go all the way, and it's kind of neat
> to see them go out early......
    
    Well, like Billl, I had UNC going out before the Final Four, with
    UConn going in, so I certainly had no problem with the early exit.
    
    Make no mistake, this was not one of Dean's finer efforts.  Rooting for
    BC, I kept saying to myself, just keep moving the ball and looking 
    for the open three (and occasional resulting break-in to an open Curley)
    and nothing else; it's the *only* way you can beat a team this physical.  
    It took Dean the entire first half to figure that out and come out of 
    the zone, but even then UNC still did not defend the wide-open, no-rush, 
    easy-street 3-pointers the entire game (this is out of the halfcourt
    offense, not that fast break or anything!).  They could have painted 
    Jerrod Abram's footprints onto the court in that one corner and alerted 
    Dean that that's where he'd be spending most of his time, and it still 
    might not have sunk in... 
    
    glenn
    

>    down the stretch and Arizona from the Pac 10 which lost its last game
>    and you get the picture. The end of season loss seems to remobilize the
    
    The PAC-10 does not have a conference tournament.  They disbanded it in
    1990.  I agree with you though.  These conference tourneys only give
    bad teams another chance to get hot and increase the chance of injury.

    I did not mean to imply that the Pac 10 has a tournament,just that
    Arizona and Michigan stumbled the last week of the season at the same
    time the tourneys were ongoing.

    A tournament at the end of a season does not mean much... Nebraska
    won the big 8, UMass the A10, UNC the ACC, Hawaii the WAC, UK the
    southeast, Texas the SWC.  Guess what they all have in common?
    
    They have all left the big dance.  I am beginning to think that 
    tough regular season games prepares teams better than a season
    ending tournament.  Or maybe we just have parity in college basketball.
    
    BTW, Cal and UCLA are major disappointments....
    
    Frank Mendez
    

re: best season record.

Duke had the best regular season record in the ACC, Arkansas in the SEC,
Missouri in the Big8,  and BYU (I think) in the WAC - Hawaii was the 4th
seed.

TTom

    UMASS was the best in the regular and postseason but played the
    championship game at home. Texas won both titles in a hopelessly weak
    conference.
    
    The big conferences(ACC,Big East,Big 10 and SEC) all had different
    winners. There is no consolation when you lose in the NCAA round of
    32's. You are forgotten ,quickly.

I had UNC out in the round of 16; loss shouldn't hurt too badly.

The Crazy Met

   >> ...and BYU (I think) in the WAC - Hawaii was the 4th seed

    	No, New Mexico (UNM) had the best record in the WAC conference.
    They swallowed the olive against Virginia (choked).

    Well better late than never,
    
    BC starting 5 was on a par with NC.  Tarheel depth couldn't turn the
    tide.
    
    Danya's blow gave Curley a rest.  He mentioned later that Montross blow
    was another rest point.  Two tremendous second halves for Bill; he
    obviously has to pace himself a bit.  Have to go back to Bill Bradley
    for similar one man all around show.
    
    Eagles sure to have letdown and will not see the big coaching mismatch
    of Sunday.  But Dean had lost this team with the Frosh-Senior thing. 
    Wooden may have had the same problem with Walton's class except
    freshman weren't eligible then.
    
    WSU was a much tougher win.  NC was going nowhere (As is my contest
    entry with Temple over UMASS in final)

    I was thinking of Walton's freshman class that purportedly beat the
    Sydney Wicks varsity.
    
    Marques was one of the truly great talents ever, sans doubt.

    I think if BC can beat NC they surely can beat Indiana. NC has a lot
    more quickness...
    
               stig

  Sure B.C can win but they are not likely to win.

  Teams have good days and bad days. One big problem with the way that this
tournament is set up is that the single game format leads to far more weak teams
advancing than you would find in a 5 or 7 game format like they have in the
NBA. Things like luck and having a good or bad day plays a much bigger factor
and talent plays less of a factor than you would have with the long series
format.

  Still I hope B.C. wins,
  George

 >> One big problem with the way that this tournament is set up is that 
 >> the single game format leads to far more weak teams advancing than you 
 >> would find in a 5 or 7 game format like they have in the NBA. 

    That's not a problem, at least it isn't to basketball fans, it's part
    of the charm of the event. Being a figure skating fan (how sad), you've
    probably never heard of Cinderella crashing the big dance because in 
    figure skating the results are pre-determined with very little adjustment 
    made for actual performance. In the NCAA tourney, almost anything can 
    happen and often does including BC knocking off #1 UNC. 
    

While a 7-game series has it's good points, there is something about
a one-time, lay it all on the line, deal that is just too good to
pass up.

re: .205

BC's biggest problem against Indiana is that Indiana has a coach who
knows how to coach in and win the big games. UNC's coach has a dismal
track record in such games.

The Crazy Met

RE        <<< Note 144.207 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

> In the NCAA tourney, almost anything can 
>    happen and often does including BC knocking off #1 UNC. 
    
AND                   <<< Note 144.208 by CAMONE::WAY "Valor" >>>

>While a 7-game series has it's good points, there is something about
>a one-time, lay it all on the line, deal that is just too good to
>pass up.

  Yeah but the problem is that the excitement you guys are talking about is
artificial. Heck, if you want that kind of excitement don't even play the game
just have the two captains flip a coin. Who ever calls it right wins. 

  In the NBA you have just as much excitement seeing who wins the 1st game but
then they go on to play the rest of a grueling 7 game series that weeds out the
bad teams and lets the better team have a chance to win on talent rather than
on random chance. And if an underdog does get through it's because they deserve
to be there not just because someone got a hot hand and tossed in a few 3
pointers in the last 10 minutes of one game. 

  This format is fine for college basketball where gambling and giving the
cheerleaders and student body something to rah-rah about is a priority but for
a major league title like the NBA championship it's better to use a format that
picks a winner based on merit not dumb luck. 

  George 

>  Yeah but the problem is that the excitement you guys are talking about is
>artificial. Heck, if you want that kind of excitement don't even play the game
>just have the two captains flip a coin. Who ever calls it right wins. 


How is it artificial, George?   YOu wanna define that, or is this more of 
The World According to George stuff that we should just take on faith?

Have you ever played in a one-game win it all or lose it all game?
For that matter, have you ever played in any kind of a playoff series?

And what (I'm almost afraid to ask this) is different about a one-game
elimination game that is different from a 7th game?


Why not just have a best of 7 coin flips, George?  Better yet, why not have
Nancy and Oksana flip a coin.  Oh, I forget, the results of that "sport"
are predetermined......


'Saw

>                   -< Careful...George is stirring the pot >-

Or doing something else with it.....

    
    

RE                   <<< Note 144.212 by CAMONE::WAY "Valor" >>>

>Have you ever played in a one-game win it all or lose it all game?
>For that matter, have you ever played in any kind of a playoff series?

  Sure, who hasn't. My partner and I were in the finals for our flight in
the DEC golf league once. What could that possibly have to do with this
discussion?

>And what (I'm almost afraid to ask this) is different about a one-game
>elimination game that is different from a 7th game?

  There is luck involved in just about every sport. Two out, bottom of the 9th,
tying run on base, a towering drive coming down right at the wall, a gust of
wind blows out you win, the wind dies and it's caught on the warning path
you lose. Same gust nudges a hail Mary pass in the endzone toward the wide 
receiver or the cornerback. There's luck everywhere in sport.

  The more games you play, the more luck evens out and the more talent has
to do with who wins. Take the B.C. game, a couple kids got hot and hit more
3 pointers than they had ever hit before while NC went cold. Over a 7 game
series, luck would even out and the better team would have had a much better
chance of winning.


>Why not just have a best of 7 coin flips, George?  Better yet, why not have
>Nancy and Oksana flip a coin.  Oh, I forget, the results of that "sport"
>are predetermined......

  At least in Skating they have to skate on two different nights. It's still a
weakness and it would be better if they skated a few more times for each
championship but it's better than doing it all in one shot. 

  Of course with Skating we are talking about major league talent, the best in
the world going head to head, not AA level minor league basketball like the
tournament that's going on now.

  Oh well, the NBA's wrapping up, soon the real teams start to play.

  George

    
    
    	Yabbut George,
    
    Ya forgot one thang though, the NBA ain't real sport!  Why they
    themselves say, "It's FANtastic".  So, it's for the fans, not the
    competition.
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    a guy who just found $0.02 more in the floor
    Kev
    

|
|>Have you ever played in a one-game win it all or lose it all game?
|>For that matter, have you ever played in any kind of a playoff series?
|
|  Sure, who hasn't. My partner and I were in the finals for our flight in
|the DEC golf league once. What could that possibly have to do with this
|discussion?

Well, you spoke with such authority and expert opinion on the subject
I wondered if you had anything to back it up, or if it was more
World According to George.   

And of course, you confirmed what I suspected.

RE -.1 and -.2

  Good job of ducking the issue and relying on insults alone. I'd do it too
if I were in your spot. Your position is almost impossible to defend.

  Let me know if you want to resume the debate.

  George

    I agree that George is just trying to get someone's goat.  If he
    really meant what he said about the NBA, he wouldn't be looking to
    put 16 teams in the NBA playoffs and say that if, perchance, the #8
    team beat the #1 team in a best-of-five series, they "deserved" to
    advance.  No, he'd be saying let's just have the two conference
    champions play, since the 82-game schedule is better a determining
    the most talented teams.

    Still, the only people who are saying that the NCAA basketball
    tournament is "what is generally called the best event in sport"
    are college basketball fans and CBS.  I haven't heard that in this
    area, but perhaps the local media in some people's area are hyping
    this event based on the local pro teams having little hope in the
    near future.

>>								Over a 7 game
>>series, luck would even out and the better team would have had a much better
>>chance of winning.

   The better team should win anyway, regardless of how many games 
  are played. 
   

>>  At least in Skating they have to skate on two different nights. 

   In college ball, there's two halves. You make big adjustments.
   You also have timeouts, to make little adjustments.

>>  Of course with Skating we are talking about major league talent, the best in
>>the world going head to head, not AA level minor league basketball like the
>>tournament that's going on now.


   That't not true, on two points.

    First, skaters do NOT go head to head. Skaters go by themsleves, and
are scored on subjective criteria. This is not head to head competition.
     
    In addition, skaters that go early
 on the card are not given the scores they deserve, simply because 
"we have to save the high scores for the skaters that come later".

    On the second point, college hoopsters ARE the best in the world, albeit
at the level that they play at, i.e. age. 
  
    Question to you George: 

 How exciting would the NBA be to you if the rules were enforced?

>      I'd sooner try to teach a pig to sing than to debate with someone 
>    who that thinks that professional women's wrestling in Japan could be 

Probably have more luck, there Tommy.


And as to insults, George, your absurd assertions are insult enough......

a yes the contrarian point of view that we in ::baseball have
learned to "love" so well.

The Crazy Met

RE Byrds and Way

  I've always thought that College basketball was as much religion as sport. I
think we are seeing that proven before our very eyes. Just a hint that there is
something wrong with the format of the sacred NCAA torny and rather than a
rational discussion we get the faithful going ballistic. 

RE                      <<< Note 144.220 by CSC32::GAULKE >>>

>   The better team should win anyway, regardless of how many games 
>  are played. 

  Think for a minute. If that were true then every 7 game series would end
with a 4 game sweep by the "better team". In fact, luck, streaks, injuries,
strategy, and a whole lot more result in some teams doing better on one day
and worse on another.

  Over a 7 game series luck, strategy, and the lot average out and the better
team has a better chance of emerging. If they are tied after 6, then it
probably means that the teams are evenly matched and both teams deserve to be
in one final game. Who ever wins will have won 4 games, not just one.
   
> How exciting would the NBA be to you if the rules were enforced?

  I like the way they let the guys play but even if they called the games
tight I'd still like it better. If there's one thing the Dream Team proved
it is that regardless of the rules, the talent in the NBA is way ahead of
anyone else in the world.

  George

Wrong George. A 7 game series only means that the better team will have
a better chance to come out on top. But there are enough examples where
that is not the case. Saying that if they get to a game 7 the teams
are evenly matched is pretty bogus. 

And what the bleep does the Dream team have to do with anything? sure the talent
in the NBA far surpasses the rest of the world, but that doesn't mean that
16 teams getting in is legit.

The Crazy Met

    
    
    	Yabbut the Dream Team comment means SQUAT!!!!!
    
    The elite-of-the-elite of the NBA is better than the rest of the world.
    It don't say diddly.
    
    I remain,
    relieving my bladder for a moment
    ;^)
    Kev
    

RE Met,

  Met, I'm not sure who's note you read. I didn't say anything like what
you claim I said so I'm not sure how to answer you. Go back and read what
I actually wrote and let's debate about that.

RE                     <<< Note 144.227 by CSTEAM::FARLEY >>>

>    	Yabbut the Dream Team comment means SQUAT!!!!!
>    The elite-of-the-elite of the NBA is better than the rest of the world.
>    It don't say diddly.
    
  It depends. When I watch a sport, I like to see the best go against the best.
I believe that the Dream Team demonstrated that the NBA has the best players in
the world and if you watch something else you are basically watching minor
league basketball. 

  I'm sure it's interesting to someone and that's fine, but I'd rather watch a
big league game at what ever the sport. 

  George

> Over a 7 game series luck, strategy, and the lot average out and the better
> team has a better chance of emerging. If they are tied after 6, then it
> probably means that the teams are evenly matched and both teams deserve to be
> in one final game. Who ever wins will have won 4 games, not just one.

Direct quote from .225 and patently wrong. Teams have
one 7 game series that were not the better team. Sounds to me like
you are saying that if they are tied after 6 they are evenly matched.
Or am I misquoting you???

The Crazy Met

    
     George, you said *exactly* what TCM says that you did. Of course,
    what we're witnessing now is you executing a 'triple maiewski' which
    is why debating with you is a waste of time.

    Youse guys just had to fall for the bait didn't ya.....
    
    
    

    
     You're right, Frank. Besides, none of this has anything to do
    with the topic "Boston College".

RE              <<< Note 144.229 by METSNY::francus "Mets in '94" >>>
>                       -< should read "teams have Won" >-


> Over a 7 game series luck, strategy, and the lot average out and the better
> team has a better chance of emerging. If they are tied after 6, then it
       -------------------------------
> probably means that the teams are evenly matched and both teams deserve to be
  --------
> in one final game. Who ever wins will have won 4 games, not just one.

>Sounds to me like
>you are saying that if they are tied after 6 they are evenly matched.
>Or am I misquoting you???

  No, I am saying they have a BETTER CHANCE of emerging and that PROBABLY the
teams will be better matched if they go to 6 games.

  With a 1 game format there is LESS CHANCE of the best team emerging and
that there is LESS CHANCE of two teams playing one game for everything being
evenly matched.

  Read carefully,
  George

RE        <<< Note 144.230 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>
    
>     George, you said *exactly* what TCM says that you did. Of course,
>    what we're witnessing now is you executing a 'triple maiewski' which
>    is why debating with you is a waste of time.

  No, arguing with you guys is a waste of time. When all else fails the
Byrds and Way resort to "Up is down and down is up".

  Now without ducking, weaving or throwing up smoke screens of insults can you
argue against this or not? 

  - A 7 game series gives a much BETTER CHANCE of picking the better team than
    a 1 game series.

  - A "big game" is much more meaningful if it's a 7th game rather than if
    it's an only game because there is a much BETTER CHANCE that the teams
    are evenly matched.

  As such, the 1 game format of the NCAA basketball playoff is not as good a
format as the NBA championship playoff series since there is a GREATER CHANCE
that a team will advance due to dumb luck as B.C. did over NC and Maryland
did over U.MASS.

  Had those both been 7 games series, I DOUBT that the weaker teams would have
advanced. And if they had, I'd be MORE LIKELY to believe that they were for
real and deserved to advance. 

  George

	I guess it's getting late and I better head home, because what I just 
	read in 144.234 makes perfect sense to me.


	billl

    So the NCAA tournament is a sequence of one-game series, and that
    doesn't represent perfection.  So what?  By comparison, I'll take the 
    result of any *one* basketball game as more meaningful in itself than 
    the result of any 7-game baseball series, for example.  Established 
    talent wins that one basketball game at a higher percentage than
    the baseball series.  That's just the nature of the respective sports.
    Does that make baseball's playoff series and World Series some kind of
    cheap circus event?  (Don't answer that, Tommy ;-).
    
>    Still, the only people who are saying that the NCAA basketball
>    tournament is "what is generally called the best event in sport"
>    are college basketball fans and CBS.  I haven't heard that in this
>    area, but perhaps the local media in some people's area are hyping
>    this event based on the local pro teams having little hope in the
>    near future.
    
    Even basketball-head Bob Ryan wrote last fall that for pure sporting
    element, minus the hype and pageantry, that the World Series remains 
    the premier American sports event.  Obviously, that's just one man's
    opinion, and is not definitive by any stretch.  It just goes to show
    that there is no such general consensus, and that 9 times out of 10 
    such a claim resides with the individual's own preference (Ryan being
    that other 1 out of 10, perhaps), and not any kind of evidence.
    
    glenn
    

    And now back to our program...
    
    I heard that Indiana suffered an injury in the last game.  Will this
    hurt their chances against BC?
    
    Frank
    

   I'm not a fanatic, or a 'faithful', by any means.
   Normally, I would skip over a college hoops regular season game.
   But I really enjoy the NCAA tournament, because I like the sport
 itself, and because it's a do or die situation.


>>  Think for a minute. If that were true then every 7 game series would end
>>with a 4 game sweep by the "better team". In fact, luck, streaks, injuries,
>>strategy, and a whole lot more result in some teams doing better on one day
>>and worse on another.

    A 1 game playoff system doesn't allow for mistakes, and has no room 
 for slacking off.  A 1 game playoff system doesn't allow for a team to
 say "Well, we still have 6 games to go".  A multi game playoff system 
 allows for all of that, and more.

    A 1 game playoff system, and the bottom line as to why I'll sit
    and enjoy the NCAA tournament, is precisely the reason why
    you hate it. It allows the underdog to come up big. 
    
           
   I'm not disputing one playoff system is better then the other because 
 I can live with both of them. What I'm attempting to convey is why there 
 is so much more suspense and excitement (my opinion) in the NCAA
 tournament thann there is in a 7 game format in baseball.

   Hey, if you enjoy the >1 game playoff, good for you. I can appreciate
 both of them.

    I would doubt it at this time.  He found a way to beat Temple.  I look
    for a close game and an outcome dependent on how well focused bc can be
    for 40 minutes.
    
    They do tend to get a bit wild at times.  Big East plays rugged D like
    big 10.  This is best big 10 matchup for BC.  Conn is another good
    match and if Duke can get to final it would be another break.
    
    Then we'd have to pray for Syracuse whom we've beaten twice to prevail
    over ark-mich winner.

    I don't think it matters with 1 game or 7 games. Who wants it more is
    what it comes down to. Who will be more prepared. The coaches have to
    adjust quicker throughout the game not just each game (in a 7 game
    series). One game makes it more exciting. It's do or die...
    
                 stig

>  As such, the 1 game format of the NCAA basketball playoff is
> not as good a format as the NBA championship playoff series
> since there is a GREATER CHANCE that a team will advance due to
> dumb luck as B.C. did over NC and Maryland did over U.MASS.

If you define "not as good" as "greater chance that a less talented might
win" fine.  Can you respect anybody elses right to find charm in the fact
that underdogs sometimes win?  Can you respect any one elses right to find
drama and excitement in a one game and you're out format?  Did you watch
"Hoosiers" thinking that it's a damn shame that the kids from Hickory didn't
have to beat the "better" teams four out of seven?  Do you think that the
NFL playoff system is a "problem" because it's one and out?  Do you feel
sorry for the 1980 Soviet hockey team that was "better" than the U.S. hockey
team, but only got to play them once?

If it's "greater chance", not a certainty, why the silly analogy about
flipping a coin?  How do you know that they won due to "dumb luck"?  How do
you know they're not better?

>  Had those both been 7 games series, I DOUBT that the weaker teams would
>have advanced. And if they had, I'd be MORE LIKELY to believe that they
>were for real and deserved to advance.

How do you know who the weaker team was?  BC and North Carolina played once
and BC won.  What gives you the right to determine who "deserved to
advance"?  Can you respect anybody elses right to believe that a team
"deserves" to advance beacause they beat the other team in a one on one
game?

Clay

    
    Look folks, I'm a little behind on the topic, but can you keep the
    personal insults out of notes.  For a reminder, you may want to review
    note 2.* and specifically 2.5 I believe.
    
    Marc
    

  >  As such, the 1 game format of the NCAA basketball playoff is
  > not as good a format as the NBA championship playoff series
  > since there is a GREATER CHANCE that a team will advance due to
  > dumb luck as B.C. did over NC and Maryland did over U.MASS.

    Statements like this one, George are why you have no credibility.
    Maryland flat outplayed UMass for 40 minutes in every facet of the
    game. BC took it to UNC. All four teams knew what they had to do 
    and only two teams did it."Dumb luck" my eye. It takes six tournament
    wins to get the national title. You don't luck into six straight
    wins anymore than the Cowboys lucked into two straight Super Bowls
    with the NFL's one and done playoff system.

    

|
|  I've always thought that College basketball was as much religion as sport. I
|think we are seeing that proven before our very eyes. Just a hint that there is
|something wrong with the format of the sacred NCAA torny and rather than a
|rational discussion we get the faithful going ballistic. 
|

That's where your wrong, Georgie Boy.  I don't even really like college
basketball.  Ask Tommy, he'll tell you.

Rational discussion assumes something approaching rational thought,
which you've pretty clearly established in here isn't one of your
strong points.


|  Think for a minute. If that were true then every 7 game series would end
|with a 4 game sweep by the "better team". In fact, luck, streaks, injuries,
|strategy, and a whole lot more result in some teams doing better on one day
|and worse on another.

Yep, and if pigs had wings they might fly.


'Saw

|  No, arguing with you guys is a waste of time. When all else fails the
|Byrds and Way resort to "Up is down and down is up".

Georgie Boy, we're starting to notice a pattern here.   And it doesn't
have to do with me and Tommy.


|  Now without ducking, weaving or throwing up smoke screens of insults can you
|argue against this or not? 

Why would we?  It's all the World According to George, and quite frankly,
Louis Carroll did a far better job coming up with a far out world than
you have.


'Saw

	Sorry to intrude with basketball...

re .237

	Sherron Wilkerson's broken leg does hurt Indiana.  Wilkerson started
	12 games this year, and is their most consistent point guard at both
	ends of the floor.  With him out Bailey has to handle the ball more,
	and Todd Leary gets more playing time (not a plus).  How much the
	injury hurts probably depends on Bailey's health, though, as much as
	anything.  If he's in the 85-90 percent range he may be able to pick
	up the slack.  If he's not, it's likely they'll struggle.

tom    

Hmmmm.....

As a UCONN fan, and making some assumptions, I don't think I'd like to 
see a BC-UCONN regional final, because beating the same team three times
in one season is always tough.....


'Saw

  Wow, I guess college basketball is a religious issue to some. Maybe it is
appropriate to discuss this in the B.C. note. But others have well thought out
challenging questions so here are some answers. 

RE    <<< Note 144.241 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>

>If you define "not as good" as "greater chance that a less talented might
>win" fine.  

  Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I like a format where the more talented
team has a better chance of winning. Then if an underdog does win, I feel it is
more deserved. 

>Can you respect anybody elses right to find charm in the fact
>that underdogs sometimes win?

  Yes. I don't believe I ever said anything to indicate that others are not
entitled to their opinion or entitled to enjoy what ever sport they choose to
watch. I am simply expressing my opinion and preferences. 

>Can you respect any one elses right to find
>drama and excitement in a one game and you're out format?

  Same answer.

>Did you watch
>"Hoosiers" thinking that it's a damn shame that the kids from Hickory didn't
>have to beat the "better" teams four out of seven?

  No, I didn't watch Hoosiers.

>Do you think that the
>NFL playoff system is a "problem" because it's one and out?

  Yes it's something I've never been happy with but I don't see where they
have any choice. It would be impossible for them to play a multi game series.
They can't play more than once a week and the year just isn't long enough to
string it out over that many weeks. Unlike college basketball where there is
a choice, the NFL does the best they can with only format available.

>Do you feel
>sorry for the 1980 Soviet hockey team that was "better" than the U.S. hockey
>team, but only got to play them once?

  As a fan of the U.S. Hockey team I'm glad they won, but I would have felt
they deserved the gold medal a whole lot more if they had beat the Soviets 3
out of 5.

  George

    You have 1-2 playing in the Southeast and West championships on
    Saturday. 2-3 are alive in the east and 1-3 are alive in the Midwest.
    Looks pretty fair to me.

>>Can you respect anybody elses right to find charm in the fact
>>that underdogs sometimes win?

>  Yes. I don't believe I ever said anything to indicate that others are not
>entitled to their opinion or entitled to enjoy what ever sport they choose 
>to watch. I am simply expressing my opinion and preferences. 

>>Can you respect any one elses right to find
>>drama and excitement in a one game and you're out format?

>  Same answer.

Thank you.  Your replies come across quite differently to me.

I now know that you prefer a best of x format, and why.

Clay

    
     By George's reckoning, John Wooden was the luckiest bastard that
    ever lived.

    
>     By George's reckoning, John Wooden was the luckiest bastard that
>    ever lived.


	I know if Chris was here he'd agree with that assessment......

  ;^)

    On another BC note, congrats to AD Chet Gladchuk for stabbing hockey
    coach Steve Cedorchuk in the back, showing that 19 years of service
    to the school and turning the hockey program around this season with a
    vastly improved team, a great recruiting class, and the Beanpot title
    mean absolutely nothing when you work for a megalomaniac.
    
    NAZZ

    
    
    re about dumb luck ect...
    
     I always thought if you set a goal and attained that goal it was
    something you meant to do.  I would call that skill.  Now walking
    along the street and finding a C-Note thats luck.
    
    Jerry

>     I always thought if you set a goal and attained that goal it was
>   something you meant to do.  I would call that skill.  Now walking
>    along the street and finding a C-Note thats luck.
    
As would most other folks too.


Re Tommy:

	That's got me rollin' dude.... 

RE  <<< Note 144.254 by AD::HEATH "Have pitchers and catchers reported yet?" >>>
    
    
>     I always thought if you set a goal and attained that goal it was
>    something you meant to do.  I would call that skill.  Now walking
>    along the street and finding a C-Note thats luck.
    
  Ok, so explain why some teams that are more skilled don't win every game of a
7 game series? If this fatalistic view that the best team will find a way to
win every game is true, then every 7 game series should be a sweep. 

  Luck is always a factor in sports and the more games you play the more chance
it has to even out and result in a winner being selected based on skill, not
chance. 

  Fun is fun and you like what you like but all I'm saying is that with a multi
game format the better team will prevail more often than they will in a 1 game
format. I see that as a weakness to the NCAA tournament that would be easy to
fix. 

  It's not a great weakness, but it's enough of a weakness to say that the
tournament is not the greatest event in sports as some claim. It's a good event
but it has it's flaws.

  George 

    
      It's already been stated *ad nauseum* that the do-or-die finality
     of each and every game is part of the charm of the tourney. It's a
     weakness only to folks like yourself, George who seek to make NCAA
     bball over in the image of fantastikball even to the extent of sug-
     gesting free agency (sheer lunacy). Georgetown could have beaten 
     Villanova in a seven game series back in 85. Houston would have 
     beaten NC State in a seven game series a couple of years before 
     that. But they had one game to play and they knew that going in. What 
     resulted was one game pure drama and raw emotion that you don't get 
     each and every game of a seven game NBA series. There's nothing wrong 
     with the tourney in the eyes of millions of sports fans across the 
     country and to suggest that these college kids play an extra 20-25
     games to appease admitted non-fans like yourself makes no sense
     whatsoever. But to each his own. At least there isn't any question that 
     the game is even a sport.

About the only thing that I find exciting in a 7 game series is the
7th game, when the lowly and undeserving unskilled underdog has battled
with all the tenacity of a pit bull with it's jaws wrapped around your
scrotum, to hang in their with the more-skilled, more deserving
George_Favorite(tm).

Then, it all comes down to a one game, winner take all affair, that
anyone can win.   Momentum has a lot to do with it, and true, that's
been built up over the series, but I'd take the underdog with momentum
anyday, over the George_Favorite(tm).


And personally, I'd rather play the one-game elimination format because
you leave everything on the field, and realize that there is no
tomorrow.....


'Saw

>I see that [the one loss and out] as a weakness to the NCAA tournament that
>would be easy to fix.

And can you also see that your "fix" would become a "flaw" to many people?

Clay 

    
    
      In addition to the excitement that I enjoy with the 1 game
    playoff format, the very structure of the tournament 
    makes it impossible for a team to "get lucky" or "have a streak"
    and advance into the championship game, or even to the final 8.
    
      Simply MAHvelous!
    
    

  Great game. If it had gone the other way people would have been pointing to
the problems B.C. was having shooting foul shots but it worked out fine in the
end. 

  It would be nice to see B.C. play UCONN in an all New England Eastern
Regional Final. 

  George

    BC vs. Florida..what U-Conn???
    
               stig

    B.C., the last New England team.


        Who would'ah thought?


            GO B.C.!!!


    George

  Oh well, it was a good run. Better than most expected.

  George

    If they would have stayed with there game and swung the ball around
    like they did against NC and IU the they would be in the final 4. But, it
    was a good run for sure...Huckaby 1 pt???
    
                 stig

Interesting letter in yesterday's Boston Globe.

Seems the author had a real problem with the Globe's overexposure of BC 
athletics, at the expense of other division 1 programs in the area.  He 
feels that Northeastern, Boston University, and UMass are losing out on 
local talent because of the Globe's "boosterism".  

I dunno, is this a salient point, or sour grapes from a non-BC grad, who
has a real problem with them being successful?

Oh, BTW, the author of this letter was non other than... nah, I cain't say.

=Bob=

    Perhaps one of the most eloquent letters ever published by the Globe!
    
    NAZZ

    
      I read that letter, too. It sounded like a lot of sour grapes 
     over another successful BC season. Hahaha!

    Between 1968 and 1972 I worked at The Boston Globe including the City
    Room, the Wire Room, and the Sports Dept. 
    
    Those were the days of Cliff Keane, Ray Fitzgerald, Jerry Nason,
    Harold Kaese, and a few young kids named Gammons and Ryan.
    
    I can tell you firsthand that the guys in the Sports Department would
    fall over themselves to do a story on BC before any other Boston
    based college, be it BU, NU, Harvard, etc. I'd even go as far to
    say that Holy Cross had to take a back seat to BC.
    
    I think a lot of it had to do with quite a few BC Alumnis working 
    at the Globe, especially Ryan.
    
    If B.C. won the Beanpot we'd be talking front page material. If
    Harvard, BU, or NU happened to win the Beanpot then they'd get some 
    ink in the Sports page.
    
    A lot of us (copy boys/editorial assistants) saw this and were 
    ticked off that our colleges weren't getting the ink they deserved.
    
    I'm sad to say it's the same old story today.
    
    Maj 

    
    	Yabbut since I didn't see the Glob, care to share with us the 
    identity of the person who had his/her letter published?
    
    I remain,
    figuring it's the "lap sitting contest" king?
    Kev
    

    I won't say whether it was me or not, but I will say that the letter
    was an eloquent epistle, worthy of being included in ::SPROTS.
    
    NAZZ

  Question is, so what if the Globe is pro B.C.?

  "News Paper is Biased" is hardly a headline. Papers often back candidates
and have favorite types of stories aimed at what their readers want to read.

  George

    They are, always have been and always will.  Glob has bias in its non
    sport reporting.
    
    The point for the non-bc sports people is to tilt the bias.  There is a
    bias towards the big four professional sports and an overwhelming
    redsox bias.  Most of it is the glob management's assessment of where
    readers interest lies.
    
    I have heard that there can be a tremendous impact from a relatively
    few letters since writers don't get that many.
    
    One thing about umass is that they don't play in greater boston and
    another of the globe's bias is that they cater to boston proper (viz
    there almost complete ignoral of southern nh).

There are those that beleive that newspapers owe a service to their communities,
thus fair treatment to all those in their community.  I beleive that papers 
strive for this to a certain extent in their news coverage.  In recent years
the mix of what a paper prints definitely reflects the paper's viewpoint, but in
most decent papers, each indivigual piece will strive for some objectivity.

The person who wrote the letter Sunday obvioulsy beleives that the paper owes 
the other university in the community equal billing.  I personally feel that 
this is like anything else - driven by what will sell the most newspapers.  BC
was hot stuff a couple of weeks ago, thus the Globe pushed them.

=Bob=

    	Hey Nazz, so just how many Nazzes are there in Dracut anyhow?
    When's the next Celtics home game?  I want to tune in and see if
    Jackie McMullin goes over to Nazz and smacks him on the haid.  8^)
    
    				 /Don

    I told Jackie last Wednesday at the Celtics-Pacers game that I wrote the 
    letter, before I even knew they were interested in publishing it.  We
    discussed the basic issue, and she obviously disagreed with me, but she
    said she didn't have any problem at all with me writing the letter.
    
    NAZZ

    Last time I checked, Amherst was pretty far removed from the Boston
    community and the only other Boston college doing well sportswise in
    recent weeks was BU who got shellacked by Lake Superior State in the
    NCAA hockey championship.

    	Thanks Nazz, I'll skip tuning in then.  But you must admit that
    if she bopped you it would've been the most action seen at a Celtic 
    game this year.
    
    				 /Don

    What you folks need is something like the 'Massachusetts Times' that
    covers news of the whole state and not just the Hub.  The Globe always
    ignored everything west of Rt. 128 on the high school level too until
    central and western Mass. teams started whippin' up on those prima
    donas.

  The Boston Herald seems a little better at covering more than the big 4
sports but not much. The gamblers like the Herald because they seem to cover
horse and dog racing in detail but for regular news they are just as biased as
the Globe, usually in the opposite direction. 

  Papers are biased, always have been always will be. I'm surprised that this
comes a such a big shock to some people. And the fact that they cover schools
around where their readers live shouldn't be all that big a surprise either. 

  If someone wants to know what's happening in Lowel, they can buy a Lowel
newspaper. 

  George

    
      George, the letter, written by one Stephen Nazzaro (who he?), 
     concerned a specific article in the Globe concerning local re-
     cruits feelings towards BC after the Indiana victory. Mr. Nazzaro's
     opinion was that such an article could only help steer recruits
     towards BC. This Mr. Nazzaro is obviously an alum of a rival 
     college but I'm not and I tend to agree with the basic premise
     of the letter. We expect and get a definite pro-BC slant from
     the Globe but it is hardly the function of the Globe to act as
     a recruiting arm of the Eagles.

Hey George...Lowel(sic) has a newspaper????

    
    
    I thought the coverage that UMass got from the Globe was more than
    fair. They seemed to be overly sensitive to the UMass alums by having
    Bob (Hall of Fame) Ryan, ex of BC and The Heights, cover UMass for the
    short period of time they were in the tournament. I presume the Globe
    did this to keep all the UMass alums happy and to avoid having Ryan
    cover his Alma Mater and the conflict of interest that would accompany
    that.
    
    Let's face facts: If you were to list the top 15 sports highlights for
    the last twelve months, there would be at least four, maybe five that
    BC has provided. With the exception of the John Chaney/John Calipari
    disgrace, and the UMass vs. North Carlina basketball game, UMass has
    simply not done the job.
     
    Sour grapes on the part of UMass alums? You bet. I can't believe the
    depth of feeling some of these characters admit to having. It's a
    real shame, but they seem to define their sports existence by whom they
    hate. And, by the way, people don't go out of their way to hate the
    NJ Nets or Cleveland Indians of sports. They only hate the teams that
    are successful, teams that deliver.
    
    UMass has never won anything of note. They have no sports tradition
    whatsoever. Who cares?
    
    
    

RE        <<< Note 144.284 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>     This Mr. Nazzaro is obviously an alum of a rival 
>     college but I'm not and I tend to agree with the basic premise
>     of the letter. We expect and get a definite pro-BC slant from
>     the Globe but it is hardly the function of the Globe to act as
>     a recruiting arm of the Eagles.

  Hey, this is a free country, newspapers can print what ever they want. If
you don't like it, don't buy the paper. If you feel you can do a better job,
start your own news paper and take readers away from the Globe. 

RE Lowell

  It seems that Lowell is a big enough city to support a paper. If the people
in cities of that size won't support their own paper then I don't feel sorry
for them that the Globe and Herald are not printing their highschool sports
results. 

  George 

> Hey, this is a free country, newspapers can print what ever they want.

uh, not quite anything they want.

The Crazy Met

>  Hey, this is a free country, newspapers can print what ever they want. If
>you don't like it, don't buy the paper. If you feel you can do a better job,
>start your own news paper and take readers away from the Globe. 

Since it's a free country, if you don't like it, is it also OK to write a 
letter to the editor?

>RE Lowell

>  It seems that Lowell is a big enough city to support a paper.

There is a local paper, the Lowell Sun.  Also nearby Lawrence has the 
Eagle-Tribune.

Clay

    Hey, The Union Lair (leader) of New Hickshire has been print
    garbage for years.....
    
    REK

    Lowell Sun got into big-time trouble when they ran the following
    headline last Friday (Good Friday, btw):  "Rex had oral sex with
    youths"  This is regarding that computer whiz who was soliciting
    for child pornography through the Internet.  The Sun is usually 
    just slightly less conservative than the Union Leader (I suffered
    through five years in Manchester, so I know of what I speak!), and
    readers simply lambasted the paper for poor taste, and on Good Friday
    to boot.
    
    NAZZ

RE        <<< Note 144.292 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>


> >> Hey, this is a free country, newspapers can print what ever they want. 
>
>    Not unless the "newspaper" is the Weekly World News or its equivalent.
>    Otherwise they generally try and stick to the facts.

  Being biased in favor of a school is not really a violation of the facts.
It sounds like all they are doing is shifting those facts around for business
reasons by highlighting schools that are popular with the readers.

>    The day will never come where I or anyone else agrees with *everything* 
>    written in the Globe or any other newspaper. In this country, George we
>    have this nutty thing called "free speech" where we are permitted by 
>    law to voice a dissenting opinion. 

  That's my point. The Globe is free to highlight any school they like. The
implication that I'm criticizing is that some people are saying they have some
responsibility to balance their reporting on colleges to help keep recruiting
from being lopsided. I believe they have no such responsibility and I believe
I am free to voice or print that opinion.
    
>    There's a viable option. Can someone lend me $10 million just until I get 
>    up and running?
    
  Hey where's the old capitalist spirit? Imagine of Ben Franklin had taken
that attitude, there would have been no Poor Richard's.

  George

     >> Hey, this is a free country, newspapers can print what ever they want. 
    
    what in the world gave you that idea?  It's *almost* a free country
    now. 

    The point of my letter, which of course got hopelessly lost in typical
    ::SPROTS tangents and irrelevancies, was that the Globe was not
    reporting on a story, they were creating a story where none existed,
    and influencing high school athletes to attend Boston College.  Saying
    to a potential Division 1 athlete that Boston College has now become a
    nationally respected program that deserves the best local talent, and
    then asking that talent if they would now consider going to BC crosses
    the line from reporting a story to making up a story.  The paper should
    not serve as a booster for Boston College or any school.  Certainly
    they are free to cover what they want, and columnists can write
    whatever they please, but attempting to sell potential recruits on a
    particular school steps over the line.
    
    NAZZ

    I don't think the Globe created the part about BC being a nationally
    respected program.

  Was this a news story or a column? If it was in a news story then it would be
a little bit sleezy to be pro one school at the expense of another. Again not a
lot sleezy but a little sleezy. 

  If it was in a column, then I don't understand what the fuss is about. Guys
put all sorts of biased stuff in columns that have nothing to do with reality. 

  George 

    
    
    	It was a "story" not a column....
    
    

    
    Fact of the matter is that local talent does not stay local, with very
    few, very rare exceptions. Local basketball players and local football
    players very often go out of state to ND, Syracuse, Penn State for
    football, and Syracuse, Villanova, Georgetown, Temple, etc for
    basketball.
    
    The choices these kids usually make is not BC at the expense of UMass,
    NU, or BU. But Big-Time at the expense of local.
    
    The article may have overstepped its bounds and Nazz may have been
    entirely justified in taking such umbrage. But the intent of the
    article was really to ask these local kids if they would now consider
    staying home to play at BC, given BC's success in the NCAA's.
    
    If the article had not been aimed at BC, and if the timing were not
    right after UMass's failure in the NCAA's, would the letter have been
    written?
    
    
    
    

    "If the article had not been aimed at BC" of course the letter wouldn't
    have been written.  BC uses its influence within the Globe's sports
    pages constantly, but this article (not a column, as JimH noted) went
    well beyond their normal pro-BC slant into encouraging local student
    athletes to go to BC.  There is no way the story could ever have been
    written about any other local school.  I mean, I simply cannot in my
    wildest dreams imagine the Globe asking local hockey stars if they now
    wanted to go to BU because the Terriers made it to the NCAA
    championship game.  It would never happen, and of course it didn't.
    That thought never occurred at the Globe; only the BC boosterism.
    
    NAZZ

  So did this article give any factual information that was incorrect or make
any promises to kids if they would go to B.C. or was it more of a rah-rah home
team type of thing? Is there a breach of contract, a fraud, or some sort of
deception? If not then it sounds legal.

  Also, in what way could this be important? Other than who wins or loses a
basketball game does it matter where the kids go? Most of them are not going to
make the pros anyway and if they want they can get a good education at B.C. so
where's the harm if they go to BC instead of UMASS? 

  Last I heard the enrollment at UMASS Amherst was around 20,000 so what's
the big deal of 2 or 3 kids go to B.C. instead? They going to have to close
the Washington tower?

  George

Get off that "legal" kick. Lots of things are legal, doesn't mean
that everything that is legal is right.

Newspapers - in stories - are expected to present facts and whne statements
are added in by participants, statements from both sides. If a story is
blatantly one-sided with boosterism tossed in it is bad journalism. 

The Crazy Met

re: .301, .304

Yes, Nazz, bad example.  BU already gets the pick of the local litter of 
hockey talent.  Two of their leading players, Shawn Bates and Jay Pandolfo 
are the best Massachusetts public school players in a while.  BU gets more of 
their share of the best from the Catholic conference powerhouses; Harvard 
does somewhat better at recruiting kids from the Prep schools.  Of course 
they have competition from BC, Northeastern, UMass Lowell, and lately UMass 
Amherst, but BU wins most of the battles.  In fact my guess is that one of 
the reasons BC hired a high local profile hockey coach is because the were 
losing the local recruiting wars to BU.  

>So did this article give any factual information that was incorrect or make
>any promises to kids if they would go to B.C. or was it more of a rah-rah
>home team type of thing? Is there a breach of contract, a fraud, or some 
>sort of deception? If not then it sounds legal.

Nobody said anything about illegal.  Nazz made reference to the tone of the 
article being NCAA recruiting violations if done by the BC employees or 
representatives.

>  Also, in what way could this be important? Other than who wins or loses a
>basketball game does it matter where the kids go? Most of them are not going 
>to make the pros anyway and if they want they can get a good education at
>B.C. so where's the harm if they go to BC instead of UMASS? 

"Other than who wins and loses"?!?!  Welcome to the world of division 1 
basketball.  To college basketball coaches and fans, that comment is 
something like "Other than the fact that the patient might die, what does it 
matter if the test results were incorrectly interpreted?"  This issue is 
around recruiting BASKETBALL playing students, not just students.

>  Last I heard the enrollment at UMASS Amherst was around 20,000 so what's
>the big deal of 2 or 3 kids go to B.C. instead? They going to have to close
>the Washington tower?

Once again, the issue is around recruiting BASKETBALL playing students, not 
students. If those 2 or 3 kids are the best basketball players in 
Massachusetts, it is a big deal from a recruiting standpoint. 

Clay

    Just for the record what was the date of the original article?  Was it Ryan?
    Actually, I think I read it but didn't pay much attention. 
    
    As for the author, there appear to be two Nazzaros around the sports
    note files.  One is an incisive, knowledgeable, all-around sports-aware
    individual and there's another who finished in the bottom of the pack
    in the ncaa contest.
    
    
    Just kidding.  I hit a bc alum buzz-saw Easter with the anti-O'Brien
    venom full throttle.  I didn't make any points by emphasizing that it's
    ALL OVER.  O'brien WON.
    
    My theory is that Obie threw the dice and kited the BE Tourney gambling
    the whole thing on winning a few in the ncaas.  It looked bad when he
    drew NC but by winning that one and IU he won the jackpot and Chet and
    my brother in-law and the rest are stuck for 3-5 more.
    
    Bill

    
    
    When BC beat ND in football last fall, there was a similar article
    which asked local football players if they would consider BC over
    Syracuse and other non-New England teams. Anybody recall that?
    
    The article posed the question to the local kids, all of whom had been
    recruted nationally, if they would think about "staying home" and
    playing for a local Division 1 team. What's wrong with that?
    
    I agree that BU gets all the local hockey talent, so the same question
    posed to recruits about BU is not only not likely to happen, but really
    doesn't have much bearing on the discussion.
    
    BC grads don't dominate the local sports pages the way they used to. As
    a matter of fact, a few of the more prominent Herald writers are UMass
    grads (Gerry Callahan is one, can't remember the other).
    
    To be honest, Bob Ryan, who bleeds maroon and gold, was extremely
    complimentary to UMass, calling them "Your State U" on almost every
    occasion and damn near cannonizing Calipari before the tournament. When
    UMass underachieved in the NCAA's, nobody wrote the type of article
    about UMass and Calipari that Shaughnessy (Holy Cross) wrote about
    O'Brien after BC did the same thing in the Big East tournament.
    
    I think the press has been more than even handed when you consider that
    UMass hasn't delivered anything but disappointment in the NCAA's over
    the last two years.

RE    <<< Note 144.306 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>

>"Other than who wins and loses"?!?!  Welcome to the world of division 1 
>basketball.  
>Once again, the issue is around recruiting BASKETBALL playing students, not 
>students. If those 2 or 3 kids are the best basketball players in 
>Massachusetts, it is a big deal from a recruiting standpoint. 

  Oh now I get it. You are saying that because of this article, some kid might
go play basketball for B.C. instead of going to UMASS? What horror. What a
tragedy. Forget any chance of sleeping tonight. 

  College basketball recruiting has been disturbed, the rift in the Universe
will be felt galaxies away. The globe is doomed and we're not just talking
about the newspaper. 

  WHAT WILL THIS MEAN FOR BORIS YELTSON ... MORTON?

  George 

>The article posed the question to the local kids, all of whom had
>been recruted nationally, if they would think about "staying home"
> and playing for a local Division 1 team. What's wrong with that?
 
Interesting question.  Did the Globe ever ask any similar questions as to
whether the overall success of the UMass basketball program might encourage
nationally recruited kids to go the their state university?  After all, the 
BC victories were highlights of a good, but not great season.
 
>    I agree that BU gets all the local hockey talent, so the same
>question posed to recruits about BU is not only not likely to
>happen, but really doesn't have much bearing on the discussion.

Agreed.  But it will be interesting to see if BC starts to have more success
in local recruiting with a high profile coach, particularly if they start to
have more success.  Also, it would have been interesting if UMass Lowell had
made the final four (which they very nearly did), if that would have helped
them sign up local hockey talent.  Similarly, as the UMass Amherst program
build up, it will be interesting to see if they do well recruiting local 
talent against the more established programs.
 
re: 309

George, your note is rather amusing, coming from the guy who entered all 
those notes about the highly important topic of figure skating judging.

Nazz sent a letter to the sports editor of the Boston Globe.  He disliked an 
article, complained about it, and shared it with us.  He never said it was a 
particularly big deal in the universe.

Clay

RE        <<< Note 144.310 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>     Four days later, George figures out that everyone's talking
>    about recruiting. 

  No, George knew that everyone was talking about recruiting from the start.

  The point is that Division 1 college basketball may be very important to a
small group of fanatics year round but most people don't give a rip once the
office pools are over. 

  The Globe knows that and could care less if someone lies awake at night
worrying over what highschool player is going to play for what college. They
score much bigger points with their readers by cheering for the home team
which in this case would be Boston College.

  George

RE    <<< Note 144.311 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>

>George, your note is rather amusing, coming from the guy who entered all 
>those notes about the highly important topic of figure skating judging.

  What I think is a riot is the way certain guys blow a fuse over what is
essentially minor league basketball after making such a big deal of the fact
that I tried to explain how major league figure skating worked.

  I guess we all find ways to get our chuckles at each other's expense,
  George

>  What I think is a riot is the way certain guys blow a fuse over what is
>essentially minor league basketball after making such a big deal of the fact
>that I tried to explain how major league figure skating worked.

George, nobody blew a fuse.  Nazz wrote a letter to an editor. 

The "minor league" analogy is absurd.  How many minor league events have 
their championship games televised on prime time on a major network?

Clay

RE    <<< Note 144.314 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>

>The "minor league" analogy is absurd.  How many minor league events have 
>their championship games televised on prime time on a major network?

  So Rosanne is on a major network in prime time and Master Piece Theater
is relegated to PBS. Does that mean Rosanne is better?

  OOOOHH_saaCanYOU_SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECHHHCHEEECHCHHEECHCHCHHEEE!!!!!!!!!

  George

    George Maiewski, king of the non-sequiters.

  College Basketball, the sport of the real women on prime time TV

     An.Duh.Ruh.KETS ... RAD! GLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRAAACHEEEAARRRRRRRRR!!!!!

  George

>  So Rosanne is on a major network in prime time and Master Piece Theater
>is relegated to PBS. Does that mean Rosanne is better?

No.  Who said anything about "better"?

Popular?  Yes, that does mean that Roseanne is more popular than "Master 
Piece" (sic, Masterpiece) Theater.

Clay

Clay stop comparing apples and apples it makes too much sense :-)

The Crazy Met

RE    <<< Note 144.319 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>

>Popular?  Yes, that does mean that Roseanne is more popular than "Master 
>Piece" (sic, Masterpiece) [sic Mahstah Piece] Theater.

  So if it's claim to fame is TV ratings then College Basketball is the
Roseanne of minor league sports. 

  Duh Boms Buse Tin ... IIIN! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAEIRRREIRRREIRRRRRRCHERRCHERRR!!!!!!

  George

    Judging by the Women's NCAA hoops tourney, I think George is actually
    paying college basketball a compliment.  Afterall, he wouldn't be
    putting such a blatently sexist comment into a Digital notesfile, now
    would he?

  Terrific, now I'm being stalked by the P.C. police in the sports notes file.

  No, it has nothing to do with women's issues. Rosanne has been called a "real
woman's" program by TV critics as opposed to an artistic program because of her
earthy stile. 

  At any rate, it would appear that a few innocent barbs about college
basketball and the same people who criticize me for getting worked up about
skating go into hyper-freakout. 

  No matter how you cut it, college basketball is minor league basketball. The
NCAA Champions would probably have a tough time keeping up with the worst teams
in the NBA. I figure it's about the AA level.

  With Winter Olympic events not only are we watching the major leagues, it's
probably the equivalent of watching an all-star game since we see the top 20-50
athletes in each sport.

  George

>  At any rate, it would appear that a few innocent barbs about college
>basketball and the same people who criticize me for getting worked up about
>skating go into hyper-freakout. 

George, nobody's gone into hyper-freakout except you.  And who do you mean by 
"the same people".  If you mean me, you're wrong.  For the record, I like 
figure skating.  I'd be willing to bet that I've watched more of it than you 
have.  I just don't pretend that it is without faults, especially the 
scoring system, which leads many reasonable people (INCLUDING skaters) to 
have some of the same opinions that have been expressed here.  I don't care 
whether it's a sport or not, and I recognize that others may have different 
opinions. I don't treat every difference in taste or opinion as an argument 
that has to be won.

>   No matter how you cut it, college basketball is minor league basketball. 
>The NCAA Champions would probably have a tough time keeping up with the 
>worst teams in the NBA. I figure it's about the AA level.

Too bad your view of the world is so narrow that you have to analogize 
everything to baseball.  Some folks can enjoy many sports on many levels, 
including college.  And it's apparent that many others feel the same way, 
since there are far more viewers of college basketball than AA baseball.

And as for the Olympics, you are only partially right.  Alpine and Nordic 
skiing, luge and bobsled, speed skating, yes, you're probably right.  Figure 
skating, maybe -- the fact that Torvill and Dean won the silver this year but 
were not in the last two Olympics, says that you don't necessarily see the 
best figure skaters; Yamaguchi and Ito might not have won, but the both are 
still surely among the 10 best.  And as for hockey, I guarantee that of the 
teams were strictly "minor league."

Clay 

Clay    

>  No matter how you cut it, college basketball is minor league basketball. The
>NCAA Champions would probably have a tough time keeping up with the worst teams
>in the NBA. I figure it's about the AA level.

If this doesn't get Chris Knorr back into ::SPROTS nothing will.

TTom

RE    <<< Note 144.325 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>

>George, nobody's gone into hyper-freakout except you.  And who do you mean by 
>"the same people".  If you mean me, you're wrong.  

  No, not you. The usual figure skating critic of this file who loves to dish
it out but can't take the slightest slam against the "pure" sport, College
Basketball. 

>For the record, I like 
>figure skating.  I'd be willing to bet that I've watched more of it than you 
>have.  I just don't pretend that it is without faults, especially the 
>scoring system, 

  I don't either. Be careful not to mix up what I say versus what people claim
I say.

>Too bad your view of the world is so narrow that you have to analogize 
>everything to baseball.  Some folks can enjoy many sports on many levels, 
>including college.  

  So don't I. In fact I watched a good part of the NCAA tournament. Still it is
not above criticism as some in this file seem to believe.

>And it's apparent that many others feel the same way, 
>since there are far more viewers of college basketball than AA baseball.

  Minor league baseball is gaining very quickly in popularity and is now
popping up on cable channels. 

>the fact that Torvill and Dean won the silver this year but 
>were not in the last two Olympics, says that you don't necessarily see the 
>best figure skaters; Yamaguchi and Ito might not have won, but the both are 
>still surely among the 10 best.  

  Sure and when you watch the World Series or Superbowl you may be missing the
top few players as well, but at least you are watching teams made up of the top
several hundred. In college basketball you are watching teams made up from
players much further down the list.

  Now that's fine, but for me that means that College Basketball is not quite
the god send some people seem to feel it is. It has it's flaws.

>And as for hockey, I guarantee that of the 
>teams were strictly "minor league."

  This could change. The NHL is talking now of taking a break for the Olympics
so that players can participate in the games. 

  George

    Stop it, George!  You're killing me!

	Please avoid the brown acid.  Repeat, don't take the brown
	acid......

>  No, not you. The usual figure skating critic of this file who 
>loves to dish it out but can't take the slightest slam against
>the "pure" sport, College Basketball.

Oh, I see.  Then that explains why the sarcastic, childish Roseanne
references were in response to my notes.

>  Minor league baseball is gaining very quickly in popularity
>and is now popping up on cable channels.

Whether or not it is gaining in popularity is not the issue.  Does "popping
up on cable channels" approach the fact that the NCAA basketball
championships have been on prime time network TV for several years? 

>  Sure and when you watch the World Series or Superbowl you may
>be missing the top few players as well, but at least you are
>watching teams made up of the top several hundred. In college
> basketball you are watching teams made up from players much
>further down the list.

And once again you've evaded the point.  Is your statment that the "top
20-50 athletes in each sport" were at Lillehammer correct or not?

But since you brought it up, your analogy is flawed because it compares
team and individual sports.  The NFL playoffs DO include the best teams;
the Super Bowl is merely the last game of the playoffs.  Ditto the World
Series.

>  Now that's [college basketball not having the best players is]
>fine, but for me that means that College Basketball is not quite
>the god send some people seem to feel it is. It has it's flaws.

Nobody has ever claimed that college basketball teams are better than the
NBA.  You think it's a flaw.  Others don't.  Why are you so reluctant to
accept someone having an opinon that's different from yours?
  
Just to remind you, this latest string started by Nazz sharing a letter to
the editor.  Some people, like USCTR1::Barry did an interesting job of
discussing the OPINION expressed in the letter.  You discussed that he HAD
AN OPINION ("What's the big deal?) and how he EXPRESSED THE OPINION,
suggesting that instead of sharing the opinion with the Globe and us, that
he stop buying the Globe and start a rival newpaper, and bringing in red
herrings like the misleading discussion about whether or not the Globe had
done anything illegal.

Clay

RE    <<< Note 144.331 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>
                            -< Have a nice weekend >-

>Oh, I see.  Then that explains why the sarcastic, childish Roseanne
>references were in response to my notes.

  You obviously weren't here last week. You are making the mistake that I was
making of getting a little too serious about what is said in this notes file. I
had it explained to me by several noters including Mac the moderator that I
should not take what people say here seriously.

  Chill out, much of what is said here is nothing more than a gag. Just about
all of my NCAA criticism is just a jab to get Tommy cranked up. I've always
liked NCAA basketball I just don't like it as much as NBA basketball and I take
what chance I can to get back at Tommy for talking trash about figure skating. 

>Whether or not it is gaining in popularity is not the issue.  Does "popping up
>on cable channels" approach the fact that the NCAA basketball championships
>have been on prime time network TV for several years? 

  The point of my sarcastic Rosanne remarks is that popularity of network TV
does not equate with quality. There has been plenty of trash over the years 
on network TV so saying something gets good ratings is interesting but not
convincing.

>And once again you've evaded the point.  Is your statement that the "top 20-50
>athletes in each sport" were at Lillehammer correct or not? 

  Most likely they were. Yes there were skaters capable of skating better
than those at the Olympics if they were in shape for world class competition
but most skaters don't keep themselves in that kind of shape once they turn
pro.

  Remember the Duricil professional championship? Brian Boitano did a four
minute program just to get himself back in shape. And I noticed that when
Kristy Yamaguchi was doing a demo for NBC she did a double Lutz instead of a
triple, most likely because she's not in shape for the harder jumps. 

  In any case, what you are seeing at an Olympic event is probably the best at
the moment and 30 of the top 50 in terms of capability. Compare that to College
Basketball where you probably only have 1 or 2 of the top 200 if that. 

  When Duke won the NCAA a couple years ago Christian Latner was probably about
the best player in the final four. Where would he have come out compared to NBA
all-stars? Yeah he made the dream team, but was he really the 12th best
basketball player in the United States? More likely the token college player. 

  George

 >> Chill out, much of what is said here is nothing more than a gag. 
 >> Just about all of my NCAA criticism is just a jab to get Tommy 
 >> cranked up. I've always liked NCAA basketball I just don't like 
 >> it as much as NBA basketball and I take what chance I can to get 
 >> back at Tommy for talking trash about figure skating. 

    Then I guess the difference is that I'm completely serious when I say
    that ice dancing and figure skating aren't real sports and that the
    judging in both is skewed and preset. But it was nice to see you come
    clean, George.
    

RE        <<< Note 144.334 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>    Then I guess the difference is that I'm completely serious when I say
>    that ice dancing and figure skating aren't real sports and that the
>    judging in both is skewed and preset. But it was nice to see you come
>    clean, George.
    
  No, as I understand it you are just pulling my leg and are really an avid ice
dancing fan who has been known to buy flowers and throw them out on the ice
after skaters have performed while yelling things like "bravo" and "encore". 

  George

    Jorge, please go read a book.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark.

>       <<< Note 144.336 by CAPNET::LEFEBVRE "PCBU Product Management" >>>

>    Jorge, please go read a book.
>    Mark.

  Good gosh that was quick.

  George

>  The point of my sarcastic Rosanne remarks is that popularity of network TV
>does not equate with quality. 

Nobody has said anything different.  Why do you keep arguing that point?

>There has been plenty of trash over the years 
>on network TV so saying something gets good ratings is interesting but not
>convincing.

Saying something gets good ratings says it is popular.  Just as is says 
that women's figure skating is the most popular sport at the Winter 
Olympics.  And quite frankly, I could care less whether or not it is 
convincing to you.  

Clay

|>  The point of my sarcastic Rosanne remarks is that popularity of network TV
|>does not equate with quality. 
|
|Nobody has said anything different.  Why do you keep arguing that point?

George feels this driving need to either get the last word in, or keep
going until he's utterly ridiculous.  George doesn't care if he's right
or wrong, just as long as he can keep the argument alive.

RE    <<< Note 144.338 by GAVEL::PCLX31::satow "gavel::satow, dtn 223-2584" >>>

>>  The point of my sarcastic Rosanne remarks is that popularity of network TV
>>does not equate with quality. 
>
>Nobody has said anything different.  Why do you keep arguing that point?

  Yes, several people have said something different. I've been accused by
the local P.C. Police of making anti woman's issue remarks so I am just trying
to set the record straight.

>And quite frankly, I could care less whether or not it is 
>convincing to you.  

  Then why are you obsessed with arguing this point with me?

  George

RE          <<< Note 144.339 by CAMONE::WAY "The Old Man and the PC" >>>

>George feels this driving need to either get the last word in, or keep
>going until he's utterly ridiculous.  George doesn't care if he's right
>or wrong, just as long as he can keep the argument alive.

  So why is it then that just about every note I write is followed by one
of these ridiculous personal insult notes written by you?

  Perhaps the pot callith the kettle black.

  George

|>George feels this driving need to either get the last word in, or keep
|>going until he's utterly ridiculous.  George doesn't care if he's right
|>or wrong, just as long as he can keep the argument alive.
|
|  So why is it then that just about every note I write is followed by one
|of these ridiculous personal insult notes written by you?

Not every note.  Not just about every note.  Count 'em and prove what you're
saying.

It's no insult George. If I really wanted to insult you, I could do a much
better job, and there'd be no question in your mind that you were indeed
insulted.

Just calling them like I see 'em, kind of like those figure skating judges.

And if you go back and look at all your notes, I'm pretty much right on.


>  Perhaps the pot callith the kettle black.

Hardly.....

       <<< Note 144.342 by CAMONE::WAY "Smells like dead teen spirit" >>>

  So what's with you guys. Weren't you one of the ones to say I should lighten
up?

  I have to admit The Byrds and Way logic which is based on saying "George is
wrong" over and over while not adding anything to the discussion is pretty
funny. 

  George

|  So what's with you guys. Weren't you one of the ones to say I should lighten
|up?
|
|  I have to admit The Byrds and Way logic which is based on saying "George is
|wrong" over and over while not adding anything to the discussion is pretty
|funny. 

If this doesn't illustrate the point, I don't know what does....

Your first deadly assumption, as I've stated time and time again, is that
we're being logical.  I'm never logical, least of all not in Sports.

I can't speak for Tommy, but he's whipped you like a rented mule everytime
he's gone up against you....

If you want some logical debate so that you can get your intellectual gonads
off, you'd better look elsewhere than SPORTS.   If you want to deal with
illogic, POPB(tm), and lots of bullshit, why then, come in, sit down, pull
up a stool, have the barkeep draw you a tall one, and have at it...


'Saw

    
      George, you've entered 30+ replies to the "Boston College" note and
     no more than two of them have anything to with Boston College. So 
     think long and hard about who isn't adding anything to the discussion.

    George is doing just fine in the illogic department.

  ... Like I said,

  George

    Nazz, the real travesty wasn't that a Boston paper wasn't covering an
    Amherst school.  The real travesty is that while they devote alot of
    press to pretenders to the throne (aka the National Champeenship), they
    completely ignore a team that has been at the top or a runner up for
    the past 3 or 4 years -- the Boston College Women's Rugby team.  UConn
    and BC have been dominating East Coast Women's college rugby for years,
    and have been to the Final Four on several occasions, yet nary a word
    from the local press.

    
    
     
    I have never ever heard of a womans rugby team, and
    
    I have never seen a womans rugby team.
    
     

>     
>    I have never ever heard of a womans rugby team, and
>    
>    I have never seen a womans rugby team.
>    

Not new, just, as Mac said, not highly covered.  Over the past bunch of
years there have been certain trends in women's rugby which tends to 
cause male ruggers to be a bit more derisive of them, but on the 
whole, they play every bit as hard as the guys....

Rachael, if she were still in here, would give me an earful over all of that,
but it's not inaccurate....


'SAw
     

    As a matter of fact, Steve, there's probably a woman's rugby team near
    you.  
    
    The U.S. Women's National team is currently preparing to defend their
    World Championship.

    Yo Mac,
    I just saw a piece on one of the hour newsie-type programs about
    the Canadian women's rugby team being over in London for some
    tournament. Wonder if you slugs will be there at the same time..
    Mind your p's and q's laddie, cain't take no pride in boasting
    that you drank some woman rugger under the table,.. unless,,.
    nah never mind..
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
    Bob Ryan, ex of BC and the Heights, gave UMass a compliment the other
    day, saying the UMass/Maryland game was one of the best games in the
    recent tournament nad that Maryland, "could have beaten anybody that
    day, Duke, Arkansas...."
    
    Pretty biased, huh?
    
    

    
    Bryant College Women's Rugby post-match keggers were always better 'n
    the Men's team's.  :^)

>    
>    Bryant College Women's Rugby post-match keggers were always better 'n
>    the Men's team's.  :^)
>

I can imagine....

    
    Has anybody heard the reason for Foley slipping down to the seventh
    round?
    
    I understand that he was the tenth QB taken, behind folks from CW Post,
    Tulsa, the left-handed QB that BU played in the 1AA playoffs, and 
    some guy that Parcells drafted on the seventh round from Howard (Jay
    Walker....ya gotta like that name).
    
    
    
    

    
      The reason that I heard was that he's 6'1" and ran a realtively
     slow 40 (5.?). Those aren't numbers that warm a GM's heart although 
     you'd think his performance against ND would.

    I heard he was more like 5'11"..

    Mike Milbury resigns from BC!

    
    
      That was a long a successful career.  I heard some gibberish that the
    contract was not what they'd agreed on earlier blah blah blah.  Sounds
    to me like Mikey is of to Lawn Guyland.
    
    Jerry

    The guy never even signed a contract.  So he basically worked for free
    for two months, while living off the remains of his Bruins deal, which
    doesn't expire until July 1.
    
    Seems Mr. Ego, Chet Gladchuck, got his way with this coach before he
    really started.  When he lost the battle with O'Brien, you knew he
    wasn't going to let any more power slip from his grasp.
    
    NAZZ

    
>          -< Rampant ego remains unchecked - Gladchuck strikes again >-
    
    In spite of my ambivalent feelings at the time, I'm regaining respect
    for Tom Coughlin by the minute, though.  What was it Gladchuk said?
    Something about a sense of betrayal?
    
    glenn
    

    when this first happened I noticed some loose ends about control of the
    program; obviously mike wanted all of it and chet wanted ultimate
    authority.
    
    mike probably wanted "see me in three years to talk about the contract
    extension"
    
    Chet "I want weekly status reports"

    
    
    The Globe printed a letter to the editor from some of the BC trustees.
    It appears that Bob Ryan may have been guilty of creating the news by
    inferring that the trustees were "concerned" over Gladchuk and that he
    had been a frequent topic of conversation at the recent trustee
    meeting. The Globe letter denies this and characterizes Ryan's action
    as irresponsible.
    
    Based on that type of denial, Gladchuk's probably a goner, don't you
    think?
    
    Some of the things that have come out of this situation just don't sit
    well with me. The way the stadium expansion was handled was very heavy
    handed and amateurish. One "source" in several articles indicated that
    BC could have had the expansion and retained some level of good will in
    the neighborhood had they been more honest and up front. 
    
    The way Cedorchuk's dismissal was handled was unconscionable. You just
    don't reward loyal service by embarrassing an employeee (although this
    does sound familiar....) who simply can't cut it as the head guy. 
    
    I've also written in this notesfile that O'Brien isn't the best coach
    for BC, but he deserved better than Gladchuk's public comments
    following the Georgetown massacre in the BE tournament.
    
    Gladchuk is to be commended for bringing in top level coaching
    expertise in the case of Coughlin, Henning, and Milbury. If only he had
    some basic integrity and "people skills" to go with what appears to be
    a good judge of coaching talent.
    
    
    
    

    Waddya expect from a Globe columnist.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    What is the best way to get Boston College Football tickets?  I'm a
    "BIG" Notre Dame fan and would love to see them at the Hill on October
    8th.  Any help will be greatly appreciated . 
    
                                  BUCK
    
    
        

    
    
    
    Good luck.....
    
    Call 617-552-GoBC or 617-552-4622...
    
    The Season ticket pamphlet I received last month indicates that the
    only way to ensure you get tickets is to buy the whole package. They're
    really leveraging last year's game to fill the stadium this year. The
    home games this year are:
    
    	9/17 Virginia Tech Simmion Willis stymied by BC's tough, veteran
    			   secondary.....BC 42 VT 38
    
    	10/08 Notre Dame   ** No prediction...
    
    	10/15 Temple	John Chaney shows up and threatens to take on the
    			new coach on the block. Jimmy O'Brien comes down on
    			the field, pleads with John to relax and take it
    			easy. The ensuing fight is shown nationally at half
    			time with Craig James saying he had his money on
    			Obie all the time.......BC 35, Temple 10
    
    	10/22 Rutgers	Brian Fortay will be watching this one from a seat
    			in the US Courthouse in Miami, as his case against
    			Univ of Miami is shown on Geraldo, Opra, and Phil.
                        BC 27 RU 14
    
    	11/12 Syracuse  Coach Paul Pasqualoni is on the hot seat after
    			another poor season amid great expectations. No help
    			here. BC 27 SU 21.
    
     ** No prediction? Couldn't help myself. This game will be a bloodbath,
    	repleat with body parts strewn all over the field. Dockery will be
        there, as will Ms. Storm. Hell, they may even bring back Howard for
        this one. ND will arrive in town rated in the top three and looking
    	for revenge. BC will enter the game 2-1, after loosing the opener
    	at Michigan and burning to prove that last year's game was legit.
    
    	Holtz will tell the press that there's nothing special about this
    	game, except that this BC team is the best he's ever seen and every
    	bit as good as Lombardi's Packers. Lou will then win the toss, elect
    	to kick off, and will attempt an onside kick to open things up.
    
    	The game will come down to the wire. ND will prevail by a score of
    	38 to 36. Lou will win the game on, what else?.. a field goal with
    	time running out.
    
    
    
                                   
    
    

re: .369

NBC has rights to ND's home games; this game is at BC and will probably
be on ABC.

The Crazy Met

    will mcdonough had a column sat. and "setting the record straight"
    inferred (from conversations "over drinks") that what is being stated
    publicly by trustees and privately is not necessarily the same.
    
    but gladchuck will probably stay while he is bringing in revenue.
    
    then sunday I saw a mention that monan had tried to intervene directly
    with milbury to get him to reconsider.
    
    much of the hockey problem has to do with scholarships being all used
    up on players bc no longer wants

    
    
    The Sporting News issues a College Football preview magazine. It
    predicts that ND will finish atop the polls. It doesn't have BC in
    the Top 25, although it mentions that BC's offensive line is " a year
    away from being the top offensive line" in 1A, and notes BC's
    receivers, defensive backs, and linebackers in their top ten for each
    category. 
    
    Running back and the quarterback position seem to be the keys to how
    this team will play and where it will finish.
    
    
    

    All I know is that Michigan's gonna kick some eagle ass this year.
                                             Go blue!!!

    Where is that game and when?  It's at Ann Arbor, right?
    
    If wolverines are at all over confident they'll be joining their
    tarheel and irish sorrow sisters
    
    billtheeagle
    
    

    	RE:.373
    
    	Has Tyronne Wheatley graduated or is he back for another year
    	at the University of Michigan?  He is a talented back and exciting
    	to watch, it is just to bad he doesn't play for the Fighting Irish!
    	 

    the game is in Ann Arbour.

    
    It will be hard for BC to win up in Ann Arbour. 
    
    Tom Coughlin never liked to run up scores. So against teams like Temple
    they ran the ball whenever they got a big lead. Now, I agree with not
    running the score up, but the QB's for BC have never (not once) thrown
    a pass during a game situation, with the exception of Ryan, who got to
    play early in the ND game two years ago when Foley went out for a few
    minutes. Ryan will not start/play at Michigan.
    
    The key is the defensive line. If they can play tough, they'll make a
    game of it, but I doubt they'll win.
    
    In today's Globe there is an article on the BC hockey program. It's
    disturbing that the scholarship situation hasn't been resolved the way
    I believe it should be. If commitments were made, they should be
    honored. Period. Apparently Gladchuk is "negotiating" with the kids and
    their parents. Hope they get it in writing.....
    
    

    	The latest on Football Ticket availability. Every game with the
    	exception of Virginia Tech and Rutgers is Sold Out! There is
    	limited tickets left for those two games. BC sold 40,000 Season
    	tickets this year.
    
    	Later,
    		Dave

    
    Anybody care to post a BC '94 football schedule?
    
    N.B._in_L.A._where_we_get_to_watch_B.C._football_on_Pay-per-view_for_
    $9_a_pop_and_the_transmission_quality_is_LOUSY!

    Here's the BC schedule this year:
    
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	win over Army
    	win over Temple
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	win over Rutgers
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    NAZZ

    This might seem strange to say, because they may well get hammered in
    Michigan, but BC's defense will make them competitive this year. 
    
    We play a tough schedule. Miami, ND, Michigan, WV, Syracuse (we don't
    play UMass, though. I suppose we should...)
    
    They key games will be against Syracuse (at home), WV (away) and
    Va Tech (home). If they can win those games, they finish with a winning
    season.

    re .380  BC Schedule..here it is.
    
    Sept 3    @ Michigan
    Sept 17   Virg Tech
    Sept 24   @ Pitt
    Oct  8    Notre Dame
    Oct  15   Temple
    Oct  22   Rutgers
    Oct  29   @ Army
    Nov  3    @ Louisville
    Nov  12   Syracuse
    Nov  19   @ West Virginia
    Nov  26   @ Miami
    
    sometime in Dec against unknown opponent a bowl game
    
    Tom

    Didn't know they had bowl games for 2-9 teams!  I had to revise my
    prediction since an obviously knowledgable SPROTS noter informed me
    that Rutgers may be pretty good.  
    
    SO here's the updated BC schedule:
    
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	Win over Temple
    	LOSS
    	Win over Army
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    	LOSS
    
    Nice balanced schedule - four losses, then win-loss-win, then four more
    losses.
    
    NAZZ

    
    Re:
    
>    SO here's the updated BC schedule:
    
>    	LOSS
>    	LOSS
>    	LOSS
>    	LOSS
>    	Win over Temple
>    	LOSS
>    	Win over Army
>    	LOSS
>    	LOSS
>    	LOSS
>    	LOSS
    
    	Guess I'll save my $9, then. %^) FWIW, the L.A. Times has BC ranked
    20th.
    
         __
    N.B./in\L.A.
        \__/
    

    Tyrone Wheatly will be out of the BC game for Michigan with a 
    seperated shoulder in practice...
    
    FYI
    
    /W
    

    Shouldn't matter, Blue should roll...
    

    I was about to say, knock one of those Ls off Nazz's list.
    
    I'm tempted to fly out for the game...  How about passing the hat at
    the  OPP tonight
    
    I was all set for that but Mrs came up with a must attend elsewhere

Best BC will do this year is 6-5.

    
    
    Is Nebraska that good, or is WVU that bad? I was not at all impressed
    with the play of their QB, Boykin, but it's hard to make any kind of
    assessment when he's given no time at all to pass.
    
    The WV game last year was dominated by BC. BC lost, not because of a
    fumble late in the game by David Green, but because of Foley's poor
    play. WV has lost @27 seniors from last year. This may not be as tough
    a game as I originally thought.
    
    Looking forward to the game this week. Hope that Hartsell can do the
    job.
    
    

    WVU was lucky it was only 31-0, it should have been worse.

    Looks like the BC defense forgot to get on board for the Michigan game.
    Thank god they didn't have Wheatley...
    
    Poor tackling and too much time for Collins to find his receivers.
    That from a veteran defense that should have played better.
    
    On a positive note, Hartsell showed some poise for a sophomore in his
    first game. 
    
    They have a week off, no doubt to give the local spotlight to the UMass
    v Spiders game this weekend. Go Spiders.....
    
                                     

  Well Boston College is playing football again and because of it I have to go
get a blasted parking sticker to park my car in front of my house. 

  I live in Brighton (part of Boston) about 2 miles from the B.C main campus.
For the 2nd time in so many years the City of Boston has decided that all
Brighton residents will have to get parking permits to park on Brighton streets
so that they can tow away anyone parking for the game. 

  The thing that really sticks in my craw is that the stickers and regulations
only apply to game days. If they were giving us a shot at getting a spot in
front of our house year round fine but we have to jump through City Hall's
hoops just for game days only. 

  This sucks, down with college football, or at least B.C. should build a
parking garage (which is what this is all about, the local towns and cities
are trying to twist B.C.'s arm into getting their traffic problems under
control).

  George 

    Yup, I'd be slashing my wrists and guzzling Draino.  Sheesh, how do you
    get up in the morning?
    
    Mark.

  Well it is annoying. Would you be happy about getting a sticker to park in
your own neighborhood for a tow rule that was only in effect 6-8 days a year? 

  George

    
      Them Cuban boat people got nothin' on po' po' George Maiewski.
     I bet if they was to hear about your parkin' woes on them 5 days 
     o' the year, they wouldn't be so anxious to come to this cruel
     hard country with our draconian laws that only serve to demean
     and destroy the human spirit. You're an inspiration to us all
     George in how you persevere in the face of such indignity.
    

        <<< Note 144.398 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>
    
>      Them Cuban boat people got nothin' on po' po' George Maiewski.

  This is sort of like when your mother says not to complain about your food
because some poor kid is starving in some remote country. 

  The general theory is, no one has a right to complain about anything if
someone can be identified somewhere that has a worse problem than you have. 

  Ok, how long before tommy complains about something. You know I'm going to
remind him about his note when he does. In fact, I think I'll extract it and
save it right now. Anyone want to start a pool as to how long before I get a
chance to drag it out? 

  Hence forth it shall be known as the "Cuban Boat People Note". I'll use
it time and time again :*)}

  George 

  But did the "resident only" restriction only apply to game days or did it
apply to every day. We have to get these stickers to avoid being towed away on
GAME DAYS ONLY. The rest of the time anyone can park anywhere. 

  This practice exists because of a political squabble between B.C. and the
local towns around the school. Around B.C. the local governments are enraged
because B.C. keeps expanding it's stadium and selling more tickets but they are
not providing parking for the larger crowd. As a result, the city streets
around the stadium get packed with cars on game days. 

  As a response, the cities around the stadium (Boston and Newton) have set up
a zone in which you have to have a sticker or get towed away on GAME DAYS ONLY.
I don't believe you ever had that situation in the south end. 

  Now ONLY BECAUSE B.C. PLAYS FOOTBALL GAMES I have to go get a resident
sticker to avoid being towed from in front of my house ONLY WHEN THERE IS A
GAME. Unlike your south end sticker it does me no good on a Saturday night when
the neighborhood streets are packed with cars of people frequenting local bars
or attending local parties. 

  And the kicker is that since I live 2 miles from the stadium game parkers
almost never come near my house anyway. The jam up ends about 1.7 miles out.

  DOWN WITH COLLEGE FOOTBALL!!!

  George 

George why not destroy the house create a Parking garage charge $15/20 per
car and provide a shuttle service to the games,  and on friday nights 
you could double as a designated driver for the bar hopping crowd creating a 
safer environment for everybody in the long run. 

Do you have to go to city hall 6-7 times for this permit or just once ?

Jeff 

    
    
    
    	Just because the Boston & Newton 'pols are idiots, you want to
    get rid of college football???  Or am I missing something here?
    
    	If the resident sticker was required year-round, you'ld be
    happy. But because City Hall(s) is only requiring the stickers
    a handful of days each fall, just to stick it to B.C., you blame
    the whole thing on college football????
    
    	Better look arround George, I think somebody is wagging you
    by your tail!!!
    
    JimH
    

>>    	Better look arround George, I think somebody is wagging you
>>    by your tail!!!
    
>>    JimH

	That's a good'en!  I've got to try and remember that one.


	billl

Okay, I'm not familiar with the area you're talking about at all, but don't
you folks have driveways?

Even friends that I have that live in Hartford (like IN Hartford) have
driveways to put their cars in.

Granted, I've never been a city dweller, except when I lived in Paris, and
at that we had a parking space in a garage under the apartment building....


'Saw

    
    
      Folks, George is the guy who said "what's the big deal?" when it
     pointed out that Matt Williams, Ken Griffey JR. and Frank Thomas
     would all lose a shot at posterity because of the baseball strike.
     George also said "what's the big deal?" when it came to college
     athletes being replaced *at the college level* by pros. Nothing
     (apparently) is a big deal unless it directly affects George Maiewski
     no matter how minutely. Few things are simpler than going down to city
     hall and getting your parking sticker. It's not like the Registry Of
     Motor Vehicles. There usually aren't lines and when there are they
     *actually move*. It's much ado about less than nothing.

>Okay, I'm not familiar with the area you're talking about at all, but don't
>you folks have driveways?
    
    Are you kidding? You'bve been to Boston alot, Frank. You know what
    it's like to try and park for an event. Deeded parking spaces in Boston 
    can sell for as much as $30,000 depending on the location.

>    Are you kidding? You'bve been to Boston alot, Frank. You know what
>    it's like to try and park for an event. Deeded parking spaces in Boston 
>    can sell for as much as $30,000 depending on the location.


No, I wasn't kidding.  I wasn't sure if George lived in the city proper
or outside a bit or what.  I'm really not all that familiar with lots
of the areas.

I mean, I know that if I lived near Kenmore Square (one are I kind of know)
that I wouldn't have a driveway....

I also know that I don't like to drive in Boston, so I part way out at
Riverside Station and then use the T.

Wow, 30K for a parking space.  That's unreal!  8^)

    If George doesn't want to go to the trouble to get the sticker I'll
    gladly volunteer to take it off his hands, so that when MikeL and I go
    down for the Virginia Tech game in two weeks we can legally park on 
    his front lawn and urinate on his rose bushes.  This is the alternative 
    to restricted parking... ;-)
    
    Basically the same "problem" exists in George's beloved Fenway
    neighborhood (shut it down!) except that's it's magnified by about 
    100 times.  The whining from the BC neighborhood folks gives the 
    city Boston a bad name, imo.  It's a comparatively mild college-style
    atmosphere 6 times a year, fercryinoutloud...
    
    glenn
    

I need a sticker to go the dump.

It costs $40 a year, and if I take brush or other "special" waste in,
it will cost me an additional $3 per truckload.

I can get the sticker at the dump, during July only (once I've obtained the
first one, which I can get at any time)


The alternative would be to pay through the nose for residential trash
pickup.

I get the sticker.....


'Saw

 Alteast you got a DUMP!!!  

 mike

>
> Alteast you got a DUMP!!!  
>
> mike

Well, Mike, it's not the dump it used to be though.  It used to be a 
real landfill.  You'd take in your garbage, and then the town workers
who work there would drive the dump trucks up the hill, dump the garbage and
the bulldozer guy would plow it under.

Nowadays, and for the past few years, the garbage is put into trucks that
haul the garbage away to some other "real" landfill where the town pays
an exorbitant fee to dump it.  That's why we have dump stickers now and
it costs money.

I mean, if the Cubans knew that we didn't have real dumps, they'd stay
in Cuba, I'm sure.  But I know that down in Cuba the word is getting
around that in America they have real dumps.

I guess those Cubans don't know that they don't make dumps the way they
used to.....


'Saw


PS As part of my summer job in college for the Sanitation Dept in Glastonbury
   I would sometimes do vacation coverage at the dump.  I learned to drive
   the dump trucks and it made getting my Class 2 license for the Fire Dept
   much easier.   Plus, you wouldn't believe the babes that come to the
   dump in these skimpy little outfits in the middle of the summer.
   YOWZA.....

    It seems like the irony here is that it was George's neighbors who
    inisted on this sticker thing to stick it ot B.C.  So why blame B.C.
    and College football.
    
    Glenn you probably know already but Frank has a good point on the use
    of Riverside mbta with the Reservoir station not a tough walk.  I
    wonder how far this sticker madness / towing extends from B.C.
    
    And I'd definitely be wary of parking in Newton or Brookline.
    
    And finally I have to agree with the noter who pointed out the awful
    tackling by B.C. vs Michigan (perennially a great tackling team).  My
    wife is from a "blue" family but went green (msu) and hates the
    wolverines and concocted an excuse to drag me away at halftime.
    
    She finally confessed to having seen it coming and wanting to spare me.
    I thanked her.

>    wife is from a "blue" family but went green (msu) and hates the
>    wolverines and concocted an excuse to drag me away at halftime.
    


It's funny, but those are the same colours as Glasgow Rangers and 
Glasgow Celtic (the bes' fitba cloob in the worl', and ye can nae dispu'
tha' laddie).

Going "green" from "blue" would be tantamount to one of those Scottish
Protestants (a "blue" Ranger fan) converting to Catholicism ("green"
Celtic fans)


'Saw

    
    
    
       Ahhhhhhh yes!!!!!!!!!
    
         Goin to the dump to check out chicks.....
    
    
    Chappy

>       Ahhhhhhh yes!!!!!!!!!
>    
>         Goin to the dump to check out chicks.....
    

Chappy, I'm telling you, man, these were bored housewives whose husbands would
tell them to take the trash to the dump while they were at work.

These ladies would dress up in halters and hot pants, drive to the dump, 
and then ask me or my buddy Murph is we could help them remove the bags
from their cars and stuff like that....

At 18 years old, hormones charged and ready, and some of these early-30s
housewives knowing it, there was a large "Mrs. Robinson" potential.....


Ah, the halcyon days of my youth.....

RE       <<< Note 144.402 by OURGNG::RIGGEN "Networks Sales & Marketing" >>>

>George why not destroy the house create a Parking garage charge $15/20 per
>car and provide a shuttle service to the games,  and on friday nights 
>you could double as a designated driver for the bar hopping crowd creating a 
>safer environment for everybody in the long run. 

  No good, I thought of that.

  Zoning

  George

RE                <<< Note 144.403 by TOOK::HALPIN "Jim Halpin" >>>
    
>    	Just because the Boston & Newton 'pols are idiots, you want to
>    get rid of college football???  Or am I missing something here?

  You're missing something here.
    
  George

RE         <<< Note 144.405 by CAMONE::WAY "Pony Boy take me home..." >>>

>Okay, I'm not familiar with the area you're talking about at all, but don't
>you folks have driveways?

  Nope, no driveways. We live in the top half of a two decker, no driveway.

>Granted, I've never been a city dweller, except when I lived in Paris, and
>at that we had a parking space in a garage under the apartment building....

  I never saw so many cars parked on the sidewalk as I did in Paris. They have
special posts put up to prevent people from doing that in places. Of course
some of those little Mini Coopers sneak through anyway.

  George

RE        <<< Note 144.406 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>      Folks, George is the guy who said "what's the big deal?" when it
>     pointed out that Matt Williams, Ken Griffey JR. and Frank Thomas
>     would all lose a shot at posterity because of the baseball strike.
>     George also said "what's the big deal?" when it came to college
>     athletes being replaced *at the college level* by pros. ...

  Here's what you are missing. Push the button and zzzZZZING!

  ~/~
  George

>  I never saw so many cars parked on the sidewalk as I did in Paris. They have
>special posts put up to prevent people from doing that in places. Of course
>some of those little Mini Coopers sneak through anyway.

Yeah, I know.  Those little things are something else.  The cars that
cracked me up though were those really low-end cheap Renaults.  I think
their nickname is Deux Chevaux, but they look like a cross between a VW
beetle and a VW "Thing".....


'Saw

>>  >some of those little Mini Coopers sneak through anyway.

>>  Yeah, I know.  Those little things are something else.  The cars that
>>  cracked me up though were those really low-end cheap Renaults.  I think
>>  their nickname is Deux Chevaux, but they look like a cross between a VW
>>  beetle and a VW "Thing".....

>    Oct  8    Notre Dame
    
    Is this game on national TV?
    
    /N.B\

    Big-time BC-hater (and UMass grad) Gerry Callahan wrote a nice article
    in yesterday's Herald about a young boy fighting for his life against
    cancer. Seems the boy, Chris Sullivan, is a big BC fan and wanted very
    much to go to the BC/ND game. Apparently the people at BC have been
    very kind to the boy (aged 10) and will find a spot in a luxury box
    at Alumni Field for him on saturday.
    
    Nice article. The boy's favorite player is his namesake, DL Chris
    Sullivan (no relation).
    
    

    Did anyone get the final time of the kickoff, noon or 3:30?
    
    I'll put it on tape.  Be up in the mountains myself.

    Noon

    I see I.M. Getting-Rich likes  BC with the points.  I've been leaning
    that way.
    
    I had dinner down south and got an earful from an alum who purported to
    be speaking only for himself but it was obvious he was reflecting a
    more general alumni pitch.  That is, Henning is a stiff and BC's
    chances this fall are exactly as pictured by NAZZ.
    
    Of all the bandwagons, getting off the BC (Coughlin) wagon leaves one
    in the most jeopardy of being trampled.
    
    I think BC is going to win but this game will show what kind of team
    they have and will have (by the simple fundementals (or lack) of
    blocking,tackling and pursuit).

    
    
    You have to feel good about saturday in the way that Henning's team
    attacked ND. I have also heard of the grumblings of alums (and I wasn't
    all that sure myself) about Henning. You've got to admit that he's a
    different breed of cat. Much different from Coughlin and Bicknell. He
    may, however, just be ideally suited for the college game. We'll have
    to see.
    
    I have to admit I didn't think BC would win. I did think the game would
    be a lot closer than what many folks were predicting (the all-knowing
    Will McDonough was calling for another 54-7 game). BC now plays the
    soft part of their schedule with games against Temple, Army, Rutgers
    and Louisville up next. They could well be 6-2 by the time they play
    against Syracuse, which could be the game for third place in the Big
    East and an automatic bowl game. In any event, it should allow Henning
    to develop his QB against teams alot less threatening than ND,
    Michigan, and Va Tech.
               
    A lot of credit should be given to the new defensive coordinator, a
    Medford boy and UMass player and coach, Jimmy Reid. His defense is
    more intense and more effective than they were last year. Reid came in
    late, worked like hell, and got his team ready for a tough schedule.
                          

             
>    I have to admit I didn't think BC would win. I did think the game would
>    be a lot closer than what many folks were predicting (the all-knowing
>    Will McDonough was calling for another 54-7 game).
    
    ...and sarcastically a 24-10 Notre Dame win if ND decided to play the
    JV team.  I know many people hate Boston College for a number of
    reasons but when the locals start piling on with a vengeance like this
    I have no problem regarding BC as the likable underdog.  Things just
    keep coming up roses for BC in these huge games against national
    powers...
    
    glenn
     

    Re:  144.428
    
         Minor nit ..... Jim Reid was an All-New England defensive back at
    Maine.  Gee, I never thought I'd find something to like about the BC
    Athletic Program, but there is .... Coaches Reid and McGovern (also
    a former UMASS coach, and Holy Cross player), leading the defense ;^)!!
    
         Nice job by the Eagles!
    
    Russ

    
    Russ,
    
    There's hope for you yet. Since it's been at least two decades since
    BC played UMass in football, you may actually start to cheer for the
    locals by the turn of the century..
    
    The staff that Henning assembled in a short period of time has really
    come through for him. I could have sworn that Reid was UMass. I knew
    that McGovern was HC.
    
    Speaking of HC, they are really paying for the way they ran up the
    scores on their Ivy and Patriot League opponents four or five years
    ago. They clearly are not competitive with anyone outside of their non
    scholarship league and may not compete very well in-league.
    
    

> Ivy and Patriot League

All Ivy League teams are at .500 or better.
I'm not sure that has happened 4 games into the season in the last 50 years
or so - yeah I know the Ivy League was officially formed in the 1950's.

The Crazy Met

    Re:  144.431
    
    Mike:
    
         Nah, it will be a snowy day in Hades before "For Bahstahn" is ever
    sung by this voice.
    
         And it hasn't been that long since UMASS and BC met on the
    gridiron.  At least it hasn't been two decades.  Surely every Eagles fan
    knows the answer to the trivia question "Which college defense held
    Doug Flutie to his poorest passing day?"  Hint: the answer is not Penn
    State, Syracuse or Miami.  That's right, Nazz, early in Flutie's
    career, the Jim Reid coached UMASS defense held Flutie to something on
    the order of 120 yards passing, in a low scoring, BC victory.  Just
    thought you'd like to know.
    
    Russ

    
    Russ,
    
    Thanks for the data. Always looking to expand my sports knowledge.
    
    I had forgotten that BC played UMass during Flutie's years.
    
    Reid grew up in my old neighborhood in Medford. Those were the years
    when Medford had some fairly good football teams and, if I remember
    correctly, actually won the then "Class A" superbowl. I remember him for
    being a pretty tough athlete, but a little undersized. Don't recall
    how well he fared at UMass. However, I'm willing to be enlightened a
    third time today if you happen to know.
          

  Why would people dislike B.C.?

  In the Boston area they've provided about as much excitement over the last
decade or so as any local pro or college team.

  Nation wide I can see why Notre Dame might be a little miffed but they
haven't really done anything to ruin anyone else's season. Well maybe Miami
with that Hail Mary thing, but even Miami has a lot of former Massachusetts
residents.

  Great game, only one writer from the Globe predicted a B.C. win and several
were predicting ND by a lot.

  George

>
>  Why would people dislike B.C.?
>

It's just one of those teams you love to hate....

I personally dislike BC because of their kicker -- he's Richard Gordon's
son, and if he's as much of an ***hole as his old man.......8^)


'Saw

    
>  Why would people dislike B.C.?
    
    Parking stickers?
    
> I personally dislike BC because of their kicker -- he's Richard Gordon's
> son, and if he's as much of an ***hole as his old man.......8^)
    
    Well, with all due respect, this is about as far off the mark as you
    can get for a good reason to dislike BC.  In any of the interviews
    I've seen with Scott Gordon it's painfully obvious that the kid is 
    humble almost to the point of insecurity.  Basically about the only
    thing he's ever done of note (at least the only thing positive; there
    were a couple other major mistakes) was to beat ND with that kick, 
    and he's pretty much overwhelmed by it.
    
    glenn
     

  I've never heard much anti-B.C. talk from people in town. 

  Most people in Boston seem to be B.C. fans. Flutie is still pretty popular,
the press and media get pretty excited about both the football and basketball
teams and like I said they've probably created more excitement than any other
pro or college team both in football and basketball. 

  Where do you see this anti-B.C. feeling, the Boston area? New England? Around
the country? 

  George 

                     <<< Note 144.438 by HELIX::MAIEWSKI >>>

>  I've never heard much anti-B.C. talk from people in town. 
    
    Except from your tantrum last month regarding parking.
    
    Mark.
    
    

|  Where do you see this anti-B.C. feeling, the Boston area? New England? Around
|  the country? 

I will preface this by saying *this is not my feeling on the matter*,
but there are those around (good ol' JD among them) who feel that 
BC looks down their noses at everyone and everything to do with 
other insititutes of higher learning in the Boston area.  This snob
factor turns a lot of people off to the sports programs as well, 
even though there would appear to be little connection between 
the two.

I beleive JD's referance point stems from his time attending/competing
for Northeastern University in Boston.  I'd confirm it with him, but
he is in Germany thised week.

Personally, I have no particular axe to grind with BC, and in fact,
I'm glad that somebody brings "big time" college sports (yes, I
consider the Big East big time) to the Boston area.  I do, however,
have a hard time rooting for them this year, since their quarterback
is a product of the dispised Brockton High School football program.

=Bob=

>    Well, with all due respect, this is about as far off the mark as you
>    can get for a good reason to dislike BC.  In any of the interviews


I never said it was a GOOD reason, just a reason.

Actually, I've not liked BC because of the Big East hoops games against
UCONN.  I'm used to rooting against them.

But I was shooting for something more esoteric than that....8^)

RE         <<< Note 144.439 by 24661::LEFEBVRE "Jerry Garcia is GAWD!" >>>

>    Except from your tantrum last month regarding parking.
    
  Mark I'm curious, do you have a bet with someone where you bet that you could
enter notes into this file for five years without saying anything about sports?
No seriously, I've been watching, you never enter a sports related note, all
you ever do is complain about someone else's writing style. It's a joke,
right? How long do you have to go before you win your bet?

  Prove me wrong, say something, anything about B.C sports past present or
future. In fact enter a sports related note anywhere in this file. You can't
right? You'd lose your bet.

  For the record I was just pulling Tommy's chain about the stickers. Patty and
I have been big B.C. fans since we moved to the Chestnut Hill area 10 years ago
so she could go to B.C. Law. 

  We were in a bar watching the Miami game when Flutie threw the bomb, we were
jumping up and down in our living room after last year's kick and we were big
fans when they went further than any other area team in the NCAA basketball
championship.

  It's kind of fun living just off campus, there's lots of students, faculty,
and alumni around and every time they pull off one of these big wins everyone
goes nuts. 

  George

    
    I lived in Boston/Medford for the first 25 of my life. When I started
    working for DEC, my family and I moved to central Mass, where
    there are more than a few Holy Cross Alums (and wannabee alums) and
    alot of UMass alums. While I noticed that the Holy Cross people had a
    generally healthy attitude toward BC because of the longstanding
    rivalry, this was not the case at all with most of the UMass folks.
    
    People in my community, whom I would coach T-Ball or Girls basketball
    with and whom I considered friends, would, at the mention of BC, turn
    into wild-eyed, chest-thumping, knuckle dragging fiends. Weekends were
    ruined when BC won any national contest. Dogs were kicked, wives ignored,
    and children sent to bed early without supper.

    Fortunately, BC didn't win all that much in those days....
    
    As a BC grad, I couldn't understand. We really didn't care that much
    about UMass. I was genuinely disappointed when the Holy Cross rivalry
    died. But I honestly didn't even recall (as a recent note testifies to)
    that BC and UMass had played each other during the Flutie years. I
    thought the games had been dropped long ago. 
    
    There are other schools that feel that way around Boston, but they (BU,
    Northeastern, Harvard) beat BC probably more often than BC beats them
    in hockey. Hence, they don't appear to suffer from the same need to be
    considered on a par with BC. 
    
    Sadly, the approach that many UMass alums take in relation to BC
    cheapens their recent accomplishments in basketball. Comparing who
    a superior UMass team schedules to the teams a rebuilding BC team plays
    is odd. You don't hear too many BC football fans challenging the teams
    that ND schedules. And yet, ND's football program is a national
    standard.
    
    

    George, please reference my note this morning in the NE Patriots note
    regarding the line for Sunday's game against the Jets.
    
    You're welcome.
    
    Mark.
    
    

> We really didn't care that much about UMass

that probably got them more upset than anything else.

The Crazy Met

  It's funny, I went to UMASS Ahmerst and almost no one ever mentioned B.C.
That was back in the late '60's, early '70's. Greg Laundry was our quarterback
and we won all the time. The big rival was Maine and about all people cared
about was the Yankee Conference which at that time consisted of the 6 New
England State Universities. 

  Of course during that time everyone was thinking about Vietnam, marches,
student strikes, moratoriums, love in the sun and so forth so maybe we just
didn't have time to worry about B.C. 

  Maybe it's a Worcester thing that didn't get all the way out to Western
Mass.

  George

    
    
    I remember pulling for UMass in last year's NCAA's and having a
    neighbor look at me as if I were from another planet and ask, "Didn't
    you go to BC?" After UMass was eliminated, I asked the guy I coach with
    if he was going to watch the Indiana/BC game, with about as intense
    disdain as I could imagine, he said, "I went to UMass." Ooops...
    
    I sometimes (too often) respond to BC criticism in this notesfile by
    UMass alums by dumping on UMass. I really don't want to see UMass get
    beaten at all, unless they play BC.
    
    In reality, the UMass B-ball team is the only major team in the area
    that's likely to win much of anything this year, unless UConn
    surprises. BC and PC are rebuilding. I plan to turn on the tube when
    UMass plays and root for them.
                                       

    
        It's all the result of an inferioirty complex that
       alums from schools like Northeastern, UMass and BU
       feel towards BC. The other schools have had flashes
       of success and UMass has had a consistently good
       b-ball team under coach Cal but BC's win over UNC
       came during the tourner not at the beginning of
       the season like UMass' and it was BC who knocked
       off Notre Dame last year and this. I didn't go to
       either BU, BC, UMASS or NU and I'll root for any
       one of them but it's been BC that has given us the
       most reason to cheer over the past 15 or so years
       and that just rankles the alums from other schools.
    

    Also, a lot of this goes back even furthur to the Leahy era at BC which
    brought BC into the Boston Media spotlight with intense coverage at the
    perceived lack thereof of the other Mass. Schools.  Ironically, one
    school which never suffered media exposure because of BC's football
    prominence was Harvard.
    
    There certainly has been a perception for my many years of observing
    that BC is big time and the rest not.  And the previous noters are
    correct (that is I agree with them) about BC fans in generally simply
    not deigning to dislike UMass etc.
    
    I personnally will root like hell again this year for the red/oops
    minutemen especially against Arkansas, Maryland (oops ex BC coach
    there) etal.

    
>    Well, with all due respect, this is about as far off the mark as you
>    can get for a good reason to dislike BC.  In any of the interviews
>    I've seen with Scott Gordon it's painfully obvious that the kid is 
>    humble almost to the point of insecurity. 
    
    Er, make that David Gordon.  I knew that didn't sound right.  Scott
    Gordon is some NASCAR driver's brother, or something...
    
    glenn
    

  So it's rivalry. I guess that's ok, sort of like hating the Yankees.

  I think the reason I missed the anti-BC stuff was that I grew up in the
Western part of Massachusetts and commuted to UMASS Amherst. The people out
there don't think about B.C. all that much.

  To them B.C. is just another college that's far away. We didn't even watch
Boston TV, we watched Springfield and Hartford TV so we didn't see all the
Boston area press coverage of B.C. 

  Sounds like it's UMASS alumni from Boston and Worcester who are the most
anti-BC. 

  George

|  To them B.C. is just another college that's far away. We didn't even watch
|Boston TV, we watched Springfield and Hartford TV so we didn't see all the
|Boston area press coverage of B.C. 

There was very little press coverage of any college sports for many
years around Boston.  Very few casual/good sports fans cared about
the college game.  This is one thing I give BC credit for - they 
were the first to bring big-time college sports back to the area.

=Bob=

    I thought the track guy was Robbie Gordon.
    

    
    
       Is Ruth Gordon his mom?

>    I thought the track guy was Robbie Gordon.

Jeff Gordon

TTom

>                                  -< NASCAR? >-
>
>>    I thought the track guy was Robbie Gordon.
>
>Jeff Gordon

NASCAR is Jeff Gordon.

Indy Car racing has a Robbie Gordon I think.....


'Saw

    I thought he sang "Sundown".
    

    and not the two way guy from Holy Cross, right?
    

    That's enough Walt.  This is a family conference.

    No, that's the guy with the talk show who was in Watergate?  General
    Gordon Liddy of Sudan?
    

    When I was applying to colleges in 1967, I never even considered BC,
    even though I grew up in Roslindale (part of Boston for those
    unfamiliar with the area) and went to a catholic grammar school
    and Xaverian High.  I applied to three schools - UMass, Rutgers, and
    Cornell.  Cornell put me on their waiting list, and made me take the
    SATs again in my senior year.  I got 680 in math and 608 in english,
    but that wasn't good enough for Cornell.  So I went to UMass.  
    
    In my graduating class from high school, several marginal students went
    to BC, the only school that accepted them.  It was generally accepted
    that if you could afford the tuition, BC would accept you.  In fact,
    the captain of our football team flunked out of Wntworth, and then got
    into BC the next semester.
    
    In spite of that, many BC students and most alums felt they were better
    than anyone who went to a state school.  That was part of the problem
    I had with BC.  Unlike George, I felt a natural rivalry with BC in all
    sports, but especially basketball.  In Julius Erving's sophomore year,
    a couple of carloads of us went to BC to see the BC-UMass game.  Sadly,
    BC won, and we had to endure a year of taunting until the rematch, at
    the Cage.  We were there at 2:30 for an 8:00 game.  The gates opened an
    hour early to let all of us in, and they stopped letting people in by
    5:30.  Needless to say, the Cage was a madhouse, and we trounced the
    Eagles.  A most memorable game.
    
    Two years later in football, BC beat UMass 70-8.  As back as that score
    was, I remember BC trying an onsides kick up 56-0.  That's another
    reason why I hate them.
    
    Finally, the Boston Globe has always had an inordinate number of BC
    grads on the staff, and the pro-BC articles, extensive coverage, and
    lack of reporting of UMass events has always galled me.
    
    NAZZ

    Speaking of BC I listened to an interview with (Jim) Reid the defensive
    coach last night.
    
    Seems like the crew of them put together a pretty good plan but it was
    clinched by the inability of Powlus to make anything happen.

|    No, that's the guy with the talk show who was in Watergate?  General
|    Gordon Liddy of Sudan?

Did he make the canned vegetables "When it says Liddy's, Liddy's,
Liddy's on the label, label, label, you will like it, like it, 
like it on your table, table, table..."

  I don't think it's so much a matter of bias against UMASS that causes the
press to overlook their teams. Problem is that the main campus is just too
removed from the Boston area for their sports programs to catch much Boston
media or press attention. Providence is much closer to Boston than Amherst. 

  UMASS dominates the sports news in Western Mass. They are in what's called
the 5 college area with Amherst, Mt Holyoke, Smith, and Hampshire College and
even though there are colleges in Springfield (Springfield College where
basketball was invented and AIC), UMASS gets all the Springfield press and
media attention. 

  So I guess if you grow up out there you'd be more miffed at UMASS if you went
to Springfield College than you would be at B.C. while going to UMASS. 

  As for B.C.'s academic rating, I don't know about undergard but the law
school has a pretty good reputation. It's not considered as good as Harvard but
it's generally considered on par with B.U. Law and ahead of Suffolk and New
England Law. Northeastern Law is hard for most people to rate since their coop
program is so unconventional but most put it on par with B.U. and B.C.

  George

    Yeah, and they made that dessert stuff with the fruit topping and
    and syrup and all sugar.  I forget the name of it...

    	That's Libby's, not Liddy's.
    
    	I guess you knew that, though.
    
    	Scott

    I did... 

  The AP and USA Today / CNN polls have B.C at #22 and #23 respectively.

  Notre Dame seems to have fallen off both lists.

  George

    I'm pleased with Henning's approach in the game against Temple. When
    the score became 35-0, in came the people who will have to fill in
    should injuries to starters become a problem. It accomplished a few
    things: It gave back-ups a chance to contribute; Gave the coaching
    staff a look at these guys under live game conditions; and it allowed a
    Temple program which seems to be progressing to take something positive
    from the game. I'm not a proponent of running up the score. Winning by
    17 is as good as winning by 70 (which I believe could have been the
    score if the starters stay in).
    
    By the way, Will McDonough must have taken some heat for his absurd
    (and demeaning) prediction for the ND game. Claims he heard lots of
    BC alums "with whales on their pants" trashing ND and that BC should be
    thankful that ND played BC at all.
    
    Will predicted a 54-7 job if the ND varsity showed up and a 24-10 game
    "if the JV played."
    
    Earth to Will,....The trashing you heard was directed at you, not ND.
    If you can't take the heat when you're wrong (and looking foolish),
    don't say stupid things...
    
    

    
    
    BC is now 5-2-1, with 3 league games ahead. The first, against
    Syracuse, is a home game. The last two are in WV and Miami.
    
    Two wins and they're in a bowl. Wins against WV, the weakest of the
    three games, and Syracuse, who's defense may be overrated, are
    possible. Miami looks like they won't loose again this year.
    
    

    Gordon who will go down in BC history as the kicker of the winning
    field goal at Notre Dame last year had a terrible night missing four.
    
    He may, ironicly, be one of the worst field goal kickers BC has had.
    
    I wonder if Henning will stay with him.

    Okay, I'll put up a p-name vs tcm for Syracuse and Miami.  A split
    and no one wins.  BC loses two and yes, I'll suffer thru some Lou
    Little should've been president kind of thing

    ok billthe sounds like a fair deal. BC wins both and I lose.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    And if they lose both then I lose.
    
    If they split, there's always the bowl game that BC will probably play

  Assuming that B.C. loses to Miami and beats the other teams, what bowl
would they be looking at?

  Same question if they beat Miami.

  Can they get a bowl if they lose to Miami and one other team? If so, what?

  George

    
    
    Big weekend all around for local teams this weekend:
    
    	Pat over Vikes
    	BC destroys Syracuse
    	BU beats Div 1-A Army
    
    Two local college teams should be playing in the postseason, BC & BU.
    The BU program's turn around has been nothing short of remarkable. They
    had some bad luck in the 1-AA playoffs last year, but they appear to be
    peaking at the right time this year.
    
    BC's defense has gotten stronger and stronger as the season has
    progressed. If Henning hadn't substituted as liberally as he did in
    some of the games, the "D" would be rated higher than it currently is.
    By the way, I think Henning's substitutions were the right thing to do
    and will pay off in the future.
    
    Big game against WV in Morgantown. They've played well since their
    early season failures....
    
    

                                 
    Don't look now, but if Boston College can beat West Virginia and then 
    pull off the big-but-not-impossible upset of Miami, and if Florida as
    expected beats Florida St, I think BC would be in decent position to be
    selected as Nebraska's opponent in the Orange Bowl.  I think it'd be
    tough to draft Miami or Florida St. coming off a loss in their season
    finale, and BC would be right up there in the national rankings.  Still 
    a longshot, but just to outline the possibilities... 
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
         Trust me BC won't beat the Canes!!

>         Trust me BC won't beat the Canes!!

  Yea but Pitt almost beat the 'Canes last week and Pitt has a long way to go
  before it can be considered a good team.

	Keith

    
    RE:

    >     Trust me BC won't beat the Canes!!
    
    	I gotta go with Goliath plus the points for a mythical $250,
    	although I hate the 'canes almost as much as I hate the Dolphins.
    
    Does anybody know if either of these games are on ESPN (W.VA or Miami)?
    And what the starting times are?
    
    >       <<< Note 144.482 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "Lets Go Hoyas" >>>

    Great personal-name, BTW!!! 8^)

    we'll worry about miami after we survive morgantown
    
    this is a pretty good bc team but we've never had any luck down there

    	I am not sure about W. Virginia, I would guess a 12:00 ABC
    	Big East slot. The Miami game is going to be a 7:30 ESPN
    	game.
    
    	Dave

    
    	The BE game of the week was going to be ?/?. They are going to
    do a BE split and televise BC/West Virgina at 12:00 to certain areas.
    So people in New England will see the BC game.
    
    Ron

    
    There's talk of BC coming here for the Fiesta.  Either way, I'd guess
    now one lock for the Fiesta is Colorado.  Probably Colorado-ND  8^(
    
    brews

    Don't laugh about ND... I heard this am  on sports station that ND
    is the favorite to oppose the sec champion in the Sugar bowl.  I
    hope that ol Lou will just turn it down...(yeah right)  Come one Air
    Force stop them domed boys...

  So if B.C. is number 25 even with the loss this week and Notre Dame is not
even listed, why are the pundits predicting that Notre Dame will go to the
Cotton Bowl while B.C. gets the Aloha bowl?

  Has the Cotton bowl slipped that much in prestige or is there some bias here
as to who is the #1 Catholic school in the nation?

  Guess the guys up on Chestnut Hill will just have to beat Miami again to get
some respect.

  George

    If ND wins 7 games they are guaranteed a sopt - via the current bowl
    coalition - in the Sugar,Orange,Cotton, or Fiesta Bowl. Sugar and
    Orange select their opponents first since they will have higher ranked
    teams from the SEC and Big8 then the Cotton will from the SWC. However,
    ND was in the Cotton Bowl the last 2 years so I would guess they would
    opt for the Fiesta Bowl. If ND loses to USC (certainly possible) then
    I see Miami, Florida St., Colorado(?) as the opponents in the tope 3 bowls.
    Loser of Alabama-Florida likely in the Fiesta Bowl.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    The Globe noted today that BC has received "verbal commitment" from a
    defensive lineman from West Potomac HS in Alexandria, Virginia.
    
    The kid's name is Mike Willetts, 6'5" 262 lbs. He runs 4.9 in the 40.
    The size of kids in HS these days is amazing.
    
    Others interested in him were Syracuse, ND, Florida and Nebraska.

    
    The talk here seems to be centering on a hopeful Colorado-Florida
    matchup.  Cain't remember the last time I rooted for USC two outa three
    weeks.
    
    brews

    
>    The talk here seems to be centering on a hopeful Colorado-Florida
>    matchup.
    
    Florida St. maybe?  In spite of TCM's earlier comment, I believe that
    the Florida-Alabama loser is committed to the Citrus Bowl as the SEC
    runner-up...
    
    glenn
     

re: Citrus Bowl

yeah that is certainly possible. I lose track of all the permutations of
who goes where based on the bowl coalition agreement.
On the plus side at least matchups are not set before Thanksgiving and then
go to hell because a team loses a late season game.

The Crazy Met

  Miami didn't win this game, B.C. lost it. 

  How many times was a throw behind the runner or someone dropped the ball? If
Miami was the team with the bad day passing you could point to the fact that
their QB spent half the game sitting on his bee-hind but what was B.C.'s
excuse? 

  B.C. was ahead at the half and only down by 5 pretty late in the game but
they just threw it away. Too many turnovers and too many 3 downs and out left
the defense on the field far too much and Miami was eventually able to run up
the score. 

  If B.C. had played like they are capable of playing they'd be getting ready
for a New Year's day bowl game instead of heading for a vacation in Hawaii. 

  According to the Globe, they will probably end up losing money on the Aloha
bowl. They stood to make 2-3 million if they had landed a New Year's day bowl. 

  So who's back next year? Is this team headed up or down?

  George

>>  So who's back next year? Is this team headed up or down?

	Up.

	The strengths of this years Eagle football team are its
	offensive and defensive lines, and the majority of the
	lineman are underclassmen.

	They will lose some "big names" (like tight end Pete Mitchell), 
	but they will be returning most starters and they will not be 
	starting a freshman quarterback like they were this year.

	Look for another good, but not spectacular year next year. They
	have the big horses up front, but they need more consistent play 
	from the skill positions - Hartsell has to mature at qb, they need
	better play from the tailback (Green has made some big mistakes 
	this year - fumble against Rutgers, falling down on third and short
	against West Virginia) and the receivers have to hold onto the
	ball when they have a chance to make a reception.

	Vinny 

    
    Yeah, they beat Cal-Poly S.L.O. by about 19......
    
    and they lost to Miami.
    
    

	The Boston College hoops squad got a double dose of bad news
	last night ...

	- the inexperienced Eagles got spanked by the #8 Florida Gators    
	  in the Great Eight basketball tournament in Detroit .. the 
	  Eagles turned the ball over often, missed many layups and
	  generally showed their lack of experience ..

	- and, even worse, heralded freshman point guard Chris Herren
	  will be lost for the season due to ligament damage in his
	  wrist suffered in the Eagles win over Cal Poly SLO ..
	  his absence was one of the major reasons BC turned the ball
	  over so much against Florida ..

	Its gonna be a loonnnngggg year for the Eagles without a 
	good point guard running the show. It will also hurt in the long
	run as Herren will have to start from ground zero again next 
	year.

	Vinny 

         Tough break for BC regarding the loss of Chris Herren.  I am
    amazed that Jim O'Brien, a former PG himself, would allow his program
    to get into the position of having only one scholarship point guard on
    the roster.  He's loaded with small forwards, but now will have to rely
    on a freshman 2G (Woodard) and a walk on (Ryan), to handle the point.
    
    Russ
    

>>    I am amazed that Jim O'Brien, a former PG himself, would allow his 
>>    program to get into the position of having only one scholarship 
>>    point guard on the roster.  

	While it doesn't help this year, BC will have two scholarship
	point guards NEXT year .. Herren will be back and the Eagles
	have gotten a committment from James Penn out of Salem, MA
	(he is ranked in the top 100 recruits).

	This injury is really going to hurt the progress of this team,
	Herren will be a year behind in his development, Woodward will
	have to play out of position this year (then move back to off
	guard next year) and the whole team will suffer without a floor
	leader. (For comparison, look how much better Mashburn and Jackson
	are doing for Dallas now that they have a "true" point guard
	in Jason Kidd.)

	A tough time to be an Eagle fan ..

	Vinny

    From what I understand, Herren would be out 8-10 weeks with the
    surgery, but O'Brien wants to redshirt him and have him miss the entire
    season.  It is obvious O'Brien is already writing this season off, and
    hoping to get four full seasons out of Herren starting in 1995. 
    
    I have a real problem with O'Brien selling out the present for the
    hope of a better future.  Is this fair to the kid?  Is this fair to 
    the BC fans who have already purchased tickets for this season?  Is 
    it fair to his squad to tell them in effect that they have no chance 
    to succeed at all this season.
    
    If Herren can play by February, O'Brien should have the decency to let
    him play.  This crude attempt to mortgage the 1994-95 season is an
    affront to the players, alums, and fans of BC, and is disappointing
    from a basketball point of view.  I figured BC to win 17-18 games this
    year.  Without Herren, they'll be lucky to reach double figures.  If
    Herren returns in February, BC could be .500 and cause a lot of trouble
    in the Big East tourney.
    
    NAZZ

	Give it a break Nazz .. your anti-BC bias is getting tiresome ..

	You admit that Herren will miss about 8-10 weeks .. that takes
	us into February .. he will have missed more than two thirds of
	the Eagles schedule .. yet you want to throw him into the lineup
	for the final few games of conference play and the Big East 
	tournament, costing him a years eligibility for the sake of a handful
	of games .. that doesn't sound like smart thinking to me .. 

	*if* Herren were an upperclassmen, this may make sense, since a
	talented upperclassman could make a difference in the BE tourney,
	but he is a freshman who has played ONE game at the college level 
	(and he got injured in that game!) .. he is a good player, but I 
	doubt he could come in at the end of the season and be a savior ..

	O'Brien isn't doing anything wrong here, its just a bad break
	for Chris and the Eagles hoops team ..

	Vinny

    Actually I would question how useful Herren will be 5 years from now. 
    More and more I see kids maturing away from basketball during a long
    stay.  Herren would be better off getting in all the play this year and
    the next two and by that time another kid will have come along to start
    at point.
    
    Football is more often another point as bulking up is often necessary
    in addition to athletic skills.
    
    I can no longer see athletes hanging around college when they have
    peaked as athletes.  So often skills erode or the athlete walks thru
    his senior year (Eric Montross).  When they finally get to a pro tryout
    at the age of 23 they don't make it.

    
    
    Nazz,
    
    Your concern for BC fans and alums is touching. Really, I mean
    that.....
    
    

    
    	Chris Herren will have surgury next week. His arm will be in a cast
    up to the shoulder for 8 weeks. So he won't have the cast off until
    the first week of February. Give hime 2 weeks to get in shape brings
    you until the 3rd week of February. What does he have 1/2 weeks left
    in the season?
    
    Ron

    
    Yesterday's paper had a quote from O'Brien about discussing the
    redshirting decision with Herren and his parents, while acknowledging
    that if Herren does sit out all of this season, the real decision on the
    extra year is Herren's and doesn't come until he's a senior.  NAZZ has
    put a creative spin on this situation to say the least.  The practice
    of redshirting has been long debated and may be somewhat questionable 
    (I'll bet even UMass has done it! ;-), but redshirting when a player
    will miss almost the entire season anyway is just about the tamest
    application possible.
    
    glenn
    

  Another point to consider is his position. 

  A center or forward might be able to come back and be an impact player in a
few weeks, but a point guard will change the dynamic of the entire team.
Remember the years that Magic Johnson sat out most of the year then came back
for the playoffs? Most often, L.A. did worse than when he played the entire
season. 

  Even if they were a contender for the final 4, which they obviously will not
be, it's doubtful if he would help that much coming back in late February. 

  And some players do improve with age. I'll bet Michigan State would like to
have had Magic Johnson for a few more years and Michael Jordan would not have
sat out any extra years at N.C. 

  George 

    Sure Michigan State would have loved to have Magic for 2 more years and
    Dean the same but m & m would have wasted their time in college.
    
    Some players do improve even in their senior years some get worse. 
    BC's threesome of Eisley etco saw only Eisley continuing his
    improvements and contributions thru his senior year.
    
    Another part of the problem is in the recruiting.  High School seniors
    are smart enough now to pick programs where players are leaving.  But
    for example at North Carolina you had Rasheed and Stackhouse unhappy
    because Dean stayed with seniors.  Montross would have done Dean a
    favor by leaving early.
    
    But Montross seems to have bounced back and will be a good player for
    the Celtics if not a Mitch Kupchack.
    
    billte

    Hmmm - let me get this straight.  He tears the ligament last week,
    but he's not gonna have the surgery until next week?  I see.  Gotta
    let the wrist rest for 10 days so that the doctor can get a better
    whack at it!
    
    If they had any backup for Herren at the point beside this senior
    walk-on Ryan, then I can see giving him the year off.  But this is
    sacrificing an entire season.  Also, this is the third consecutive year
    Herren has been injured (stress fracture in leg, broken ankle before
    this).  There's no guarantee he'll be playing four years from now. 
    Heck, there's no guarantee he'll even be in school.  I seem to remember
    a few brushes with authorities in high school. 
    
    It would seem to me that the team and Herren would benefit from him
    playing as much as possible.  I would want him back ASAP and on the
    court.  The more he plays, the better off he and the team would be.
    
    NAZZ

    What the heck did you expect him to say?  He's looking to party without
    the responsibility of playing on the team.  This kid is a disaster
    waiting to happen, and this injury could push him down the fsat track
    to destruction.
    
    Why didn't he accompany the team to Michigan for the game?  Isn't he
    still part of the team?  Did Gladchuck need to save the $400 air fare?
    
    NAZZ

    
    I see.....The way to prevent this kid from becoming "the disaster" you
    speak about is to keep him on the team, even though he can't play. This
    will allow him to do what? To work out running or on stationary bike?
    He'll do that anyway, redshirt or not.
    
    To keep him away from "partying"? How ? If the boy's gonna blow it,
    hanging around a gym riding a bike until he can play (for 1-2 weeks) is
    not gonna make any difference.
    
    The people who seem so worried about Herren all seem to be UMass alums.
    Why? I doubt very much if it's altruism. Seems like a poorly disguised
    attempt to demonize BC (again), Nazz. If the boy fails, we all now know
    who's to blame. It's them damn Eagles. Them and the Globe, right?
    There's probably a course on that up in Amherst.
    
    On O'Brien's lack of point guards other than Ryan: This is exactly why
    alot of BC alums don't like Obie and were calling for his blood last
    year. With 2 exceptions in 9 years, he has not recruited. Period. The
    small forwards he recruited are all marginal Div 1 players at best: Keenan
    Jourdan, Kevin Hrabowski, Blackwell. (Bevan Thomas fell into his lap).
    The other players:
    
    		Paul Grant: A tall stiff who hasn't developed in 3 years.
    		Abram: Don't know how he got here. Pro prospect...maybe.
    		Piwerka (freshman): Too soon, but didn't look great v Fla.
    		Christiansen: Another stiff.
    		Ryan: Division III; tries hard. Would do well at Assumption.
    		Curley: (freshman): One of the two exceptions in 9 years.
    		Granger: as above.
    		Woodward: as above
    		Herren: as above 
    
    This is not a program. This is a couple (2) good recruiting classes in
    9 years.
    

    I kinda disagree about this recruiting class.  Granger, Woodard, Curley
    and Herren were all top prospects.  Thomas did fall into his lap as you
    say, but he also was very highly rated.  I will agree that O'Bie seems
    fixated with small forwards - why I don't know.
    
    Rumor I heard was SF Keenan Jourdan was going to be given a chance to
    play the point, so that Woodard can stay at SG.  According to a BC guy
    at the Garden Wednesday night, Jourdan was promised an opportunity to
    play PG when he was recruited.  The injury to Herren may be his dream
    come true.  Whether he can deliver is another matter.
    
    And yes, I do think Herren should remain with his team, practice and
    work out when he can, and get back in the line-up as soon as physically
    possible.  There's no question in my mind that would be best for the
    team and more importantly for Herren's future.  Although I must admit
    I'll enjoy wathing them go 8-20 this season.
    
    NAZZ

    
    8-20? You're being too kind. They may not win 8. Enjoy yourself.
    
    Keenan Jourdan is no more of a point guard than Demitrius Hill is. If
    that's the plan (I don't doubt what you're saying) then BC is in more
    trouble than they showed against Florida. I'd play Ryan over him. He's
    shown absolutely none of the physical pre-requisites you would associate
    with a point guard. He's big, slow, and generally lacks agility. 
    
    

    
    As much as I hate to say this, Nazz was right. I went to BC/Holy Cross
    at the Centrum and there he was, Keenan Jourdan, playing guard. Not
    point guard, but guard nonetheless.
    
    Interesting starting lineup: C: Danya Abrams
    				 F: Kevin Hrobowski
    				 F: Bevan Thomas
    				 PG: Woodward
    				 SG: Jourdan
    
    Grant and Ryan did not leave the bench. Mickey Curley was immense
    during a phase of the game when both teams traded baskets. HC could not
    defend him. He's so accustomed to having to work to get open that he
    fakes when he's open....
    
    Some observations: Woodward is going to be good. Played almost the entire
    game at point guard. Ditto on Curley; should have played more. Bevan
    Thomas scored 20 & defended Rob Feaster (Holy Cross' Big Dog) well.
    Danya Abrams had 14 boards.
    
    BC did not appear to be as disorganized as they showed against Florida,
    but this was HC, not a top ten team by any stretch. They will not,
    however, be a .500 team this year based on what I saw friday night.
    
    It's UConn tomorrow night. They'll loose by 15-25.
    
    

>>          <<< Note 144.499 by ILBBAK::SILVESTRI "I have no answers" >>>

>>	The strengths of this years Eagle football team are its
>>	offensive and defensive lines, and the majority of the
>>	lineman are underclassmen.

>>	They will lose some "big names" (like tight end Pete Mitchell), 
>>	but they will be returning most starters and they will not be 
>>	starting a freshman quarterback like they were this year.

	Need to down grade this slightly .. two of the Eagles best linemen
	(one on offense, one on defense) declared early for the NFL draft.

	Guard Greg Landry and defensive end Mike Mamula have made 
	themselves available for the draft. Wonder if Tom Coughlin will
	pick either of them up for Jacksonville (not with their first
	pick, but later on)?

	Vinny

	The Eagles doubled their number of conference wins Wednesday
	night by upsetting 20th (but falling fast) ranked Georgetown.

	BC is now 2-9 in conference play.

	Two keys to the victory:

	(1) BC did not turn the ball over as much as they have been
	    (they are -8 in turnover average in Big East play).

	(2) Georgetown was patehtic from three point range, going 6-36.
	    They were very poorly coached, as Iverson et al made no
	    attempt to feed the ball inside, they just continued to
	    jack up the outside bombs.

	*If* BC can continue to protect the ball like they did last night,
	they have a chance to make a run for an NIT bid. And watch out next
	year, when they actually have a point guard or two (Chris Herren
	returns and recruit James Penn arrives).

	BTW - Donya Abrams scored 29 points and grabbed 10+ bounds. The third
	      time this year he has scored 29 in a conference game. 

	Vinny

>	*If* BC can continue to protect the ball like they did last night,
>	they have a chance to make a run for an NIT bid. And watch out next
>	year, when they actually have a point guard or two (Chris Herren
>	returns and recruit James Penn arrives).

Vinny, don't do this to yourself.  They're 2-9 in the BE, and 8-11 overall.
They finish the season with 5 of 7 on the road (@SJU, @Pitt, @UConn, @Vill,
@SU).  They aren't going to win those last 3, so even if they go 4-3, that
gives them 6-12, 12-14.  Even the NIT won't take teams with losing records.

Be happy that Woodward and Granger and Jourdain have shown something...
reason for hope in the future.

    Scoonie Penn is strictly a shooting guard, even though he's only 5-9.
    I suspect O'Brien will play him there with Herren at the point.
    
    Can anyone explain to my why Bevan Thomas has done absolutely nothing
    at all this year?  I figured him to be a major league stud, not a major
    league bust.  Next to Othella Harrington, Thomas is the biggest
    disappointment in the Big East.
    
    NAZZ

    Nazz, everything I had heard was he's a stud also.  Obviously the
    year off had to have hurt him, more likely I just got sucked in and
    believed the press clippings without having seen him play.
    
    Jimbo

re:  Bevan Thomas

I've seen BC in person 4 times, and his strength is slipping into
rebound position and getting 'bounds and tips.  Other than that,
he's shown no other 'dimension' to his game.  Nothing defensively,
no ball-handling, no jumpshot.

    I thought bevan looked better the other night.  I'm now satisfied that
    he'll be solid if not spectacular.  Sort of a tweener between the rough
    and tumble (say Reid of Hoyas) type and a Moten type.
    
    And Mamula had a great football tryout and there's thought he may have
    moved to the first round.  Now if Parcells had him scouted here and
    hoped to grab him in the second that's history.
    
    For once the experts agree with what any fool could see was a great
    football player (who didn't make even 3rd team AA - that list has same
    value as the mnc).
    
    billte

    
 > And Mamula had a great football tryout and there's thought he may have
 > moved to the first round.  Now if Parcells had him scouted here and
 > hoped to grab him in the second that's history.
    
 > For once the experts agree with what any fool could see was a great
 > football player (who didn't make even 3rd team AA - that list has same
 > value as the mnc).
  
    No kidding. Folks were actually "shocked" at Mamula's performance in 
    the combines? Amazing. Anyone with two eyes could see that this kid
    was special. Boyd and Mitchell got all the press but it was always
    Mamula who had "A1 Stud" stamped all over him. Word is that he's
    moved into the first round that still means that he could be there
    when the Patsies draft. I really hope so.

    The question with Mamula wasn't his ability but the fact that he was
    playing DE at only 240 pounds.  He supposedly was going to have to move
    to ILB, which represented something (if not much) of an unknown.  Is 
    that where he was worked out at the combines?  
    
    glenn
    

    	Don't know how Mamula will stack up against NFL three hundred
    pound linemen, and if he ends up a linebacker the Pats are strong
    there already.
    
    				   /Don

    
    	Mamula weighed in at 248 at the combine. In some of the quickness
    categorys Mamula was .2 seconds faster, Then any other DL or LB. Mike's
    overall rating was higher than what Willie McGinnest received last
    year. Mike will hold another individual workout on April 1st in Boston.
    He has vaulted himself from a 3rd rounder to the 1st round in some
    Scouts minds. I look for him to get picked somewhere in the 20-40
    range. Which is late first/early second round.
    
    Ron

    
    	I bet Chad May considers Mamula a 1st rounder.....
    
    Claybone

    Mamula was no secret around Boston and had a fabulous game at N.D. in
    '93.  But no real national recognition.  I could never understand that
    except there were rumblings that he wasn't a great practice player and
    some hints that in less than big games he was inconsistent.
    
    Pat's at #16(am I right?) or thereabouts may be too low to grab him 1
    and too high as #2.  With the emphasis on pressure on the passer he may
    even be gone prior to the Pat's pick.
    
    Ironically as Mamula comes down the other guy (end-Mitchell) goes the 
    other way.

>    Ironically as Mamula comes down the other guy (end-Mitchell) goes the 
>    other way.
    
    For some inexplicable reason in the last two games of his career (the
    Aloha, then Hula? bowls), the normally reliable Pete Mitchell had a 
    hard time holding on to the balls thrown to him.  Hawaii humidity?
    
    glenn
     

I think the Pats may actually pick as low as 23rd...

  >> The question with Mamula wasn't his ability but the fact that he was
  >> playing DE at only 240 pounds.  He supposedly was going to have to move
  >> to ILB, which represented something (if not much) of an unknown.  Is 
  >> that where he was worked out at the combines?  
    
     Hadn't heard of Mamula playing inside before. That'd be foolish.
     This guy is an OLB/DE in the mold of a Kevin Greene. Excellent speed,
     quickness, strength, Ted Hendricks type arm length. I said somewhere 
     earlier that I'd have taken him over Simeon Rice if Rice had come out. 
     He's the best at his position that I saw all year. I'm just surprised 
     that the pros were surprised by him. 
    

  I never heard of Mamula or saw him play until the Aloha bowl. But after
  watching him maul Chad May and any offensive lineman who tried to block
  him, I was, needless to say, quite impressed. I agree, at OLB/DE, he
  could be a force and the steal of the upcoming draft. I'll be happy if 
  my Steeler's get him.

  In my book, he's a 1st rounder, no doubt.

	Keith

    	Can someone post the BC schedule for this season and any 
    	information regarding ticket sales and prices.  Since I can't
    	get any Pats tickets I figure I will take in a BC game.
    
    

    	BC Ticket Office (617)552-3000. I don't have a copy of the schedule
    	but the 1st home game I believe is Sept. 16th against Michigan.
    
    	Later,
    		Dave

    BC is kicking OSU's butt, oops I mean kicking off the schedule at the
    Meadowlands vs OSU in early September.
    
    BC sold out the season via season tickets because of Notre Dame but is
    pretty close to the same scarcity this year.  I do think that tickets
    will be available at the lesser games like Syracuse and Temple for
    people with season tickets not using them.

    BC's home schedule:
    	Sep 16  Michigan
        Oct  7  Pittsburgh
        Oct 14  West Virginia
        Oct 21  Army
    	Nov 11  Miami
    
    ****   All tickets have been sold out for the season . . . Maybe I will
    	   try Holy Cross now?

  What a disaster. Was this blow out what we should expect all year or 
should things pick up?

  George

    I, for one, enjoyed it immensely.  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

>  What a disaster. Was this blow out what we should expect all year or 
>  should things pick up?

C'mon George, you don't really think things will get any better than that, do 
you?

  Anyone see the game on ESPN last night against VT? B.C. looked a little
shaky and the running game seemed to favor VT with B.C. not being able to run
at all in the 1st half and VT seeming to run over the B.C. defense at will but
somehow they hung on for the win. 

  Most of B.C.'s scoring seemed to come on long bombs or fumbles run back by
the defense setting up short yardage followed by guys being wide open in the
end zone. Lots of penalties on both sides early on. 

  It was the 1st Big East game for both teams.

  B.U. opens at Villinova this weekend.

  George

Nice defense in the last few minutes though.  Bent but never broke.

I had it on with the sound down (was on the phone) so I don't know what
the talking heads were saying about it....

    BC didn't run the ball very effectively against VT, but they were happy
    to have been able to put up 20 points against a defense that was
    returning 10 starters from last year's defense.
    
    By the way, according to reports in both Boston papers (I didn't get to
    see the game), Tech actually was given 5 downs to score on their final
    drive, but BC held.
    
    Steve

>    By the way, according to reports in both Boston papers (I didn't get to
>    see the game), Tech actually was given 5 downs to score on their final
>    drive, but BC held.
    
Again, I had the sound down, but I was following it and I thought something
was unusual.

There was a play which I assumed was fourth down, and the BC defense jumped
up and down after stoping them.  I figured, okay, BC has it.   Then VT ran
another play.   

I thought I had just miscounted.


'Saw

    According to the papers, Tech has a first and ten play on which they
    went 8 yards - so it should have been 2nd and 2, but the officials
    moved the chains and set up a first and ten.
    
    Steve

Boy, I thought I was going nuts.  I thought that Tech
got an extra play too.

I was glad to see BC blitz a couple of times on that
final drive.  I think the rush got the the Tech QB
at the end.

Mike

    Nice win for BC.  Incredibly stupid play-calling by the VT coach.  They
    rolled the QB out all the way down the field and got him time to throw
    on just about every play.  They get to the 20, put him in the pocket,
    and he gets pressured and can't complete a pass. 
    
    And the play the scored the 80 yard TD on - the misdirection and the
    short toss?  Never ran it again!  Sometimes I just don't understand
    coaches.
    
    NAZZ

>    And the play the scored the 80 yard TD on - the misdirection and the
>    short toss?  Never ran it again!  Sometimes I just don't understand
>    coaches.

Yeah, when a play works you should keep running it until the defense
proves it can stop it.


re:  no BC running game

This will be interesting to watch.  BC has always had an effective running
game.  Was it VT's defense, or is BC's running game a problem this year ?

>> re:  no BC running game
>> This will be interesting to watch.  BC has always had an effective running
>> game.  Was it VT's defense, or is BC's running game a problem this year ?

	VT's defense ... they played an 8 man front most of the game ...
	they forced BC to pass ...

	Vinny

    BC displayed an effective running game against Ohio State - Justice
    Smith ran for over 100 yards.  Against VT he was held to just 47 yards
    on 23 carries.
    
    Steve

  B.C. doesn't seem to be doing much better than their professional
counterparts out in Foxboro. Off year it seems. 

  Who's next? Have the Eagles played Miami yet? They coming up?

  George

    
    Well, 2 teams from MA can still make the NCAA's, even if BC is on its
    way off the bubble.
    
    BU has a good shot at winning the North Atlantic Tourney!!
    
    I love the Globe, who can somehow figure that with even records, BC
    edges out PC for a NCAA bid at this point in time.  Even though
    BC has lost 3 in a row, lost to WV, and oh, by the way, did they
    really beat anybody good.  And even though PC has been cruising
    at the end of the season.  Eh well, it gives the paper something to
    whine about later anyway....
    
    - Sean

      >-< Well the real name of the paper is the Boston (College) Globe...
    
    You'd never know it by the coverage of UMass this year, right up there
    with Bird era Celtics and any era Redsox.
    
    I think Big East is getting six this year because nova,conn,gtown and
    even 'cuse bring up the whole conference.
    
    I'm in the minority that feels that some bubble teams are better off
    with the NIT - now Providence should be in the NCAA because they have a
    chance to get to the 16 or furthur - much stronger team than BC which
    relies more on coaching.

    Hi
      Any one out there have the 1996 Football Schedule for the eagles.
    

    I've got it.
    
    Loss
    Huge Loss
    Embarrassing Loss
    Loss (making progress)
    WIN! (vs Army or Navy or Temple)
    Loss
    Humungous Loss
    WIN! (vs Army or navy or Temple)
    WIN! (vs Army or Navy or Temple)
    Loss
    Disheartening Loss
    
    NAZZ
    

    >>            -< Deja vu all over again, Nazz - wrong again >-
    
    except they always seem to lose against West Virginia no matter what.
    8^)
    
    Let's go-o-o-o-o-o Mountaineers!

    Just callin' 'em as I see 'em.
    
    NAZZ 

You guys forgot to mention complaining about not being considered for a
bowl bid when they're at .500

    
    
    8/31   @Hawaii      W
    9/14    Va Tech     W
    9/21   @Michigan    L
    9/28    Navy        W
    10/5   @ W VA       W
    10/12  @Cincin.     W
    10/19   Rutgers     W             9-3  Cotton Bowl VS Ohio St???
    10/26   Syracuse    L
    10/31  @PITT        W
    11/9    Notre Dame  W
    11/16   Temple      W
    11/23  @Miami       L

    
    
      BC never beats WVA in Morgantown.  

    
       You beat me to it, Jerry. They also don't stand
      much chance of beating ND.

    
    
        Yabbut they haven't had much chance vs ND in the past 4 years
    either. But you are forgetting the LOU Holtz factor!!

Chappy, another thing that piqued my interest was that you have BC beating
VaTech.  How many players did Tech lose?  If the number wasn't large, I can't
see BC beating them.

>    9/14    Va Tech     W
>    10/5   @ W VA       W
>    10/12  @Cincin.     W

If BC wins 2 of the above they'll be doing great.

    I can't beleive my eyes note 144.564 B. C. 9-3 cotton bowl this guy
    must be a Yankee Fan. Navy will be a lost. Notre Dame will crush them. 
    West virginia will beat them and will rutgers and V.Tech.Miaimi another
    loss Michigan another lost.That is seven defeats.That puts them at 
    5-7 and no bowl Game.

    
    
       And Harry your a Season Ticket holder.  tsk Tsk Tsk....