Conference hbahba::cam_sports

Amen Corner.....


I'm liking Freddie Couples, but a sentimental fav is Fuzzy Zoeller....


Should be a good time -- a few beers, some nice weather, and the
Masters on TV....


'Saw

    	The only thing good that ever came out of golf was the movie
    Caddyshack...
    
    				/Don

	Golf on TV!!???!!

	What sa matta, no rooms to watch paint dry in.

	ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


	billl

    This from a softball player...  ;-)
    
    Actually I find baseball (teevee) a very boring sport to watch, most of
    the time.
    
    But alas, when I was a young man, I used to think gold (teevee) was
    boring, but since I turned 30 last October, my views have changed...
    
    Jack, the golden bear, with his come from behind Masters win in
    86.  There ain't nuthin like it...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

 I do truly enjoy watching the Masters this is the Event for the PGA and 
the best thang that ever came outa Georgia. 

    
    actually this is neither a PGA or USGA event. It is strictly an
    elitist club inviting a few close friends for a friendly match! :^)
    

    Bernhard Langer runs away wif Masters on final 9, finishing at -11.
    
    JaKe
    

    Chip Beck, me favorite goofer, pulled a suck move on about 15 (par 5)
    when he laid up instead of going fer the green.  (Then he Hooved the
    green and over shot it anyway.)
    
    He coulda shot the green, gone fer an eaglet, and put Bernie within a
    stroke of losing.  The pressure combined with that damned putting grip
    may hav give Beck the tourny.
    
    I hate wimps whose names are pretty close to mine own...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    
    Hell, Dan Forskin...er...Forsman was what, one or two strokes behind
    Langer and then he gets to #12 and proceeds to drop two in Ray's Creek,
    and takes a freakin' seven on a par 3.
    
    At least it makes me feel better when I gets a 7 on a par 3, having
    watched a pro do it too.
    
    Now, If I could just rid meself of those 10's on the par 5's.
    
    
    JaKe
    

I couldn't believe that Beck listened to his caddy.  They were talking about
it, and the caddy says "Let's play safe and lay up".  And that's exactly
what Beck did.  I knew at that point it was over.

I can't stand Langer, but hey, the guy didn't self destruct and everyone
else was 8^)


'Saw
    

Now Saw, don't go BLAM(tm) the caddy for Beck being a Wussy. He's the pro
he's the one calling the shots. Just like most other American golfers
being second best all year long is better than winning occasionally.
Langer beat him at the thirteenth when he eagled to his birdie. Chip
just rolled over after that and conceeded. A truly disqusting performance.
It's too bad he didn't boggie out and loose second. Probably wears an
apron at home....

mike

>Now Saw, don't go BLAM(tm) the caddy for Beck being a Wussy. He's the pro
>he's the one calling the shots. Just like most other American golfers
>being second best all year long is better than winning occasionally.
>Langer beat him at the thirteenth when he eagled to his birdie. Chip
>just rolled over after that and conceeded. A truly disqusting performance.
>It's too bad he didn't boggie out and loose second. Probably wears an
>apron at home....

Oh, I wasn't BLAM(tm)ing the caddy.  Chip does have final say.....

If Couples wasn't having so much turmoil in his life, he would have
given old Bernie a run for his Deutschemarks....


I was pleased to see Fuzzy Zoeller up in the hunt for awhile, and I always
like to see southpaws (Russ Cochran) do well too.....


'Saw

    Mike and the Mad Dog on WFAN really gave it to Beck yesterday, calling
    him gutless and a coward, and his laying up a despicable act.  Mike
    correctly pointed out that Ken Venturi said on TV that Beck must be
    playing for second.  There's an old saying that's very true:  No guts,
    no glory.  Beck oughta learn that.
    
    Nice to see Mikkleson join Cochran on the tour so there's twoe lefties
    we can root for!
    
    NAZZ
    
    BTW, I've been playing a lot of Hole-In-One golf on Super Nintendo
    recently, since the golf courses around here won't be playable 'til
    June.  :-(  WHen I won a tournament, I got a check for $43,200,000!!!!
    Japanese makers of the tape must have been thinking in yen instead of
    dollars!

    I heard the conversation between Beck and Caddie, I think the caddie
    actually wanted Beck to shoot for it and Beck wanted to "play it
    safe and do the smart thing".
    
    I don't think "bold runs" are Becks strong points, I think he was still 
    willing to hope the Langer was going to blow up...  But still, The
    Masters?  I'da made a bid to win.
    
    Bum cost me $$$, too.  I had him and Sluman, and my friend with Jose-
    Marie and Payne Stewart squeked by me...  (Sluman bogied 18 for the
    final nail in the coffin...)
    
    Chip Bach (the one wif guts...)   ;-)

>    I heard the conversation between Beck and Caddie, I think the caddie
>    actually wanted Beck to shoot for it and Beck wanted to "play it
>    safe and do the smart thing".

Oh, okay.
    
>    I don't think "bold runs" are Becks strong points, I think he was still 
>    willing to hope the Langer was going to blow up...  But still, The
>    Masters?  I'da made a bid to win.


Anybody with half a brain could have done some simple arithmetic and
figured that it was now or never.  Go for it all.


I was extremely disappointed to see a 'merican settle for second best. 

    
>    Bum cost me $$$, too.  I had him and Sluman, and my friend with Jose-
>    Marie and Payne Stewart squeked by me...  (Sluman bogied 18 for the
>    final nail in the coffin...)

I got disgusted and turned it off!


'Saw

    What I mean't was, Beck is knows his game well enough to know a press
    by him might have cost him big time and he's steady his self and
    finish second.
    
    The guy is always in the top ten money winners for the year and never
    really big on the leader board.  (I can't remember the last victory
    he's had next to the Masters Par Three Tourny this year)
    
    He took second with some guys making a run.  I don't know how much
    money sole second gets, put I'll bet its better than a three way
    tie for third while there was a four way tie for second...
    
    Anyway.  Unfortunately for the guy, the mike picked up his chicken
    statement, and he overshoot the stupid green anyway.  (Even if he
    had gone for it, he couldn't have ended up worse, aside from a
    splash down)
    
    I think in his backswing, he thought "What AM I DOING?!?!?!?" and
    blew it...
    
    Bad move for his fans and his ability to pull in adverts...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

From Gen. George S. Patton


	When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble
	shooter, the fastest runner, the big league ballplayers,
	the toughest boxers.  Americans love a winner, and will
	not tolerate a loser.  Americans play to win all the 
	time.  I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost
	and laughed.  That's why Americans have never lost and
	will never lose a war, because the very thought of 
	losing is hateful to Americans.


'Saw

After several days of reflection - there is just no way to reconcile the
fact that this guy gagged......Chip Beck gets my vote for....

	WUSS  of  the  Year!!!!

There's a sports-talk radio station out here on the west coast that has a
feature each morning called "Stiff of the Day."  At the end of the year they
award the "Stiff of the Year" to the most deserving recipient.  I nominate
Beck for that award too.

Doug

    Is this the freakin' "GOLF" note, or should I start one fer just
    general BS on Golf???????????
    
    JaKe
    
    

>    Is this the freakin' "GOLF" note, or should I start one fer just
>    general BS on Golf???????????
>    
>    JaKe

Make it the golf note.
    
    

'Saw thats a damn fine executive decision :-)

The Crazy Met

>'Saw thats a damn fine executive decision :-)
>
>The Crazy Met

Well, I had thought about adding the line

	"So it is written, so it shall be done"

from that classic movie that was on a couple of weeks ago, but I decided
I didn't want folks to think I had delusions of grandeur or anything....


'Saw

'Saw you could have gotten away with that line from the Ten Commandments - and
besides look where it got Pharoh. Now some other moderators ...

The Crazy Met

    It is done...
    
    Chip_notBECK_Bach _GSH_

>    Chip_notBECK_Bach _GSH_


Chip, every time I see yer name there, it makes me think of Mr. Chickenshit
in the Masters....;^)


'Saw

The complete antithesis to Chip_I'd_Better_Lay_Up_To_Finish_Second_Beck,
won the GGO yesterday, in sudden death.

Rocco Mediate took home the trophy, beating some other dude (I've forgotten
his name already) on the 4th playoff hole.

Mediate was cool as ice in the playoff.  The two golfers tied the first
two holes, and Rocco was in trouble on the third, hitting into a fairway
bunker.  Using a 6-iron, he blasted it over the green on the 18th.

Coming out of the bunker, he said to Gary McCord of CBS, "did you see
how far that went"

The other dude missed a birdie putt, and Rocco made par to go to the
4th sudden death hole.

McCord and his cameraman stuck close to Mediate for the rest of the
playoff, Mediate joking and talking to him.   At one point, Mediate
said to McCord that he hoped it would be over soon because he had
a plane to catch.

Playing out of the first cut rough on the 16th fairway, Mediate's caddie
told him "Slow and go", and Rocco put it damn close to the hole.
The other dude left himself about 30 feet for a birdie.

The other dude missed, holed out, and Rocco made the birdie putt to win.



I WISH I could be as cool under pressure as the Rocco-man was yesterday!


'Saw

    
    Yabbut I gots a golf type question ta ask.
    
    Anybody ever use one of those "exploding" golf balls?  Ya know, the
    ones that when ya whack it with the club, they explode into a big puff
    of white smoke?
    
    Da reason I'm asking is my brother Brian (a "A" flight golpher) has
    once again challenged me to a "fun" game of golf and I mean to take it
    literally!  I figgure that even though he's giving me 2 shots per hole
    (4 par or more) and 1 shot on par 3's that if I plop one of these
    little beuties on him, his concentration should be pretty well history.
    
    Anybody ever tried 'em?
    
    I remain,
    a volume leader in golf!
    Kev
    

 They work great Kev. It's best if you can get somebody distract him on the
 tee after he's teed it up and make the change. The bigger the club the
 bigger the explosion....Even still they work good out on the fairways
 too. If I was you I'd bring a pocketfull with me and get him as often 
 as possible....

 ;^)

	Yeah Kev, make sure he is distracted, because if he holds it in his hand 
	he'll definitly notice the difference.  I replaced a friends golf ball
	with one of those beauties once.  You really have to see their face to 
	get the full effect.  We both laughed so hard we had to go into the
	clubhouse and have a couple a brewskis to relax again.  Neither one of
	us did very well the rest of the day.  Everytime we'd start our 
	backswing a chuckle would start up again. 


	billl
	

    
    Tanks Mikey but @ $3.95 a pocketfull would leave me a bit short
    of funds for the 19th hole!
    
    He's got this monster driver that he's always showing me.  Cain't wait
    to see his face after he tries a monster whack!  Anybody got a spy
    sized video camera?  
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    also wondering what store I saw them in?
    Kev
    

 
    
>    Tanks Mikey but @ $3.95 a pocketfull would leave me a bit short
>    of funds for the 19th hole!
    

	You could always make another bet with me to replenish those 19th
        hole funds..  ;^(

	I didn't realize they were so expensive...somebody else brought
        them when we used them...

 mike

    
    Yabbut #2 on the "gonna git my brother" campaign (still in development)
    is one of those golf balls with a weight wayyy off center so it rolls
    (wobbles) like a egg.
    
    Anybody ever been "gotcha'd" with one of those?
    
    I remain,
    still wondering where to buy them too!
    Kev
    

>    Anybody ever been "gotcha'd" with one of those?
    
Kev, 

The way I play golf, no one needs to "gotcha" me to get a laugh.

They just stand at the tee and watch.  Then we walk in the woods for
a while.  Then we find a ball (maybe mine, probalby not) and they watch
me damn near kill myself with a rebound back at my haid off a tree.

Then, after a fashion, we're on the fairway again, then in the woods.
Then pokin' around in the water.  

AFter a while, they're so tired from laughing that I win the match....
(NOT!)


'Saw    

	Finally, someone who plays golf just like me!  'Saw, maybe you should
	set up a "duffers" get together.  Considering the way we play you might
	better make it for a long weekend.  That way we can get all 18 holes in.


	billl

    This has potential... We have the annual golf tournament here for
    people who can't golf.  Pretty fun.  My highlight was a couple of years
    ago when I hit the rough off the 1st fairway on the first 3 holes.  It
    was ok on the first hole, but it was kind of embarrassing by the time
    I teed off the third.
    
    -Walt (who always wants a softball bat in case he needs it for drives.)
    

    

    re.35
    
    'Saw, you low handicappers bragging always pisses me off!!   (8^)*
    
    
    
    
    Hell, if ya pay $15 and shoot 75, it costs $0.20/stroke, but if ya play
    like me and pay $15 and shoot 100, it only costs $0.15/stroke.  I'm
    doing my part to help the freakin' economy.

    JaKe
    

    'Saw, you need a golf ball like the one my friend has.
    
    He was showing it to me the other day.  It beeps, it floats and it's
    bright red.  Impossible to lose.
    
    I thought I should buy some, so I asked him where he got it.  He said:
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    "I found it in the woods."
    
    
    Lee

    
    Yabbut it reems to me that *I* mentioned in the lasted edition of
    SPROTS that a golf tournament (or at least a golf fiasco) would be
    a lot of fun.  I'm all for it!
    
    Mid-to-late July seem like a good date for everybody?
    
    Heck, maybe some of the RON-golfers would also show up and then we
    could let them run it for us?  (Right BobF)  ;^)  ;^)
    
    Any nominations for a course?  Is Stow a good location?  It used to be
    a good course but I don't know anymore.
    
    I remain,
    initiallizing a social event?
    Kev
    

I live right next door to a golf course, so the 19th hole could be
located in my backyard.

Only problem is that if y'all came down and we went on the course,
they'd never let me back on.....ever....8^)


'Saw

    Yabbut not wanting to be a pernicular appendage, for all of us to make
    da trip down to Hebronville, it would be a bigtime trip so, for the
    pleasure of many, one must suffer.  Da vote (subject to further review)
    says you cain make da trip.
    
    Privately speaking (nobody but Saw should read thisted), I'll come down
    some day and mebbe you and me cain terrorize some worms and make
    divots.  Gotsa keep the groundskeeper employed doncha know.
    
    I remain,
    a terror on the links!
    Kev
    

>    Yabbut not wanting to be a pernicular appendage, for all of us to make
>    da trip down to Hebronville, it would be a bigtime trip so, for the
>    pleasure of many, one must suffer.  Da vote (subject to further review)
>    says you cain make da trip.

No problem.  I was just mentioning that I live next door to a golf
course.

Being at the southern end of the Great New England Sports Noting
Conglomerate I realized that it probably wouldn't be prudent (at this
juncture) to have a golf tourney is my area....

    
>    Privately speaking (nobody but Saw should read thisted), I'll come down
>    some day and mebbe you and me cain terrorize some worms and make
>    divots.  Gotsa keep the groundskeeper employed doncha know.
    
Privately replying (nobody but Kev should read thisted), okay.


'Saw    

    
    Yo, a golf tournament would be ideal!  Stowe is nice but expensive but
    it has two(2) 18 hole courses. OK, Kev, you're on!
    
    But looking at these here notes, looks like y'all are a
    bunch_a_duffers, not even qualified to be my caddy. Sheeit, I'll be
    waiting all day on the green while everyone's in the dang woods.
    Don't know if a player of my skill wants to be seen on the course with
    you Stooges(grab a bag of bats, killer)... Let me think on it...
    
    8^),
    MikeL
    

    Stow Acres is too nice for me... We stick to Stow Away....
    

MikeL,

Just drink your usual fifth of Jamieson's and you'll be all bLEARY-eyed
on the course.  It'll be like giving us a handicap.....8^)


'Saw


PS  Could I borrow some money from you for the greens fees?  My hands
    are having a hard time making it down to me pockets.....8^)

    Touche 'Saw, touche ( actually I'd prefer Bushmills)
    
    What, me lend money to Scotsman?? OK, but the typical usury rates are
    in order..... 50% interest compounded semi-daily for any Highlander!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

	Hey, speaking from the Northern end of the "Great New England Sports 
	Noting Conglomerate", I don't mind making the trip to Connetycut just
	so long as we can do one up here in Cow Hampshire, too.

	Come on yunz city dwellers, venture out and spell the clean air!


	billl

    
    I'd just as soon make it the 'Sawmill so I can have a place to pass out
    after chasing my beer, er I mean ball, around all day.  If you make it
    a Friday that beer chasing might go on for two days...  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

>    I'd just as soon make it the 'Sawmill so I can have a place to pass out
>    after chasing my beer, er I mean ball, around all day.  If you make it
>    a Friday that beer chasing might go on for two days...  ;-)
    
Well, I have plenty of floor space......8^)


'Saw    

    
    
          I'm in for this golf Idea guys. And living in Athol like I do
    Connecticut/Springfield is about as far as the Hudson area so I'd do
    a Connecticutt run. Plus I wanna see this!!!!!
    
    
    
    Chappy

>                 -< Hope theres no Chip Becks out there...... >-

I ain't no Chip Beck!

    
I'm ALWAYS an agressive golfer.  Why, on the par 3 3rd hole at Tallwoods,
which is a tee, a huge water hazard, and then a green, I never think
of laying up.   In fact, one time I managed *5* skips across the water
before my ball contacted the green.   Getting a 7 on that hole was
one of my BEST efforts....8^)


'Saw

    	Hey 'Saw since you live near a golf course we could just sneak
    on and nobody would know you're with us.  Would be cheaper that
    way too.  Personally I think a miniature golf tournament would be
    a more athletic endeavor.
    
    				/Don

We could get all liquored up and play some night golf.......

    'Saw,
    
    Do you have balls that glow in da dark?
    
    deening......
    
    I remain,
    rememberin when I met that blind guy with a 4 handicap who used to play
    at night too!  
    
    Kev
    

We're doing a little golf action here today to celebrate Pete Crouch's departure
to greener pastures. That is if the weather clears up..

Of course we're far too good to associate ourselves with hackers like you guys...
;-)

Metz - handicap in the low 3 figures....

	re: weather

	That's what you get for living in the "American Rain Forest", Metz.

	It's sunny  and clear here in New Hampshire.


	billl


	We now return you to your regular progam...

yeah,yeah, yeah.... but at least we didn't have snow in april....

Other than this month it was sunny from mid jan-march this year...however it's
been raining for almost every day in april...I've been cutting my lawn 2x a week
just trying to keep up with it...

I'd rather have drizzly and 45-50 in the winter than 0-20,clear and windy any
day...

75 and sunny from mid-june until mid october too...and no mosquitoes..

Metz

    
>>Only problem is that if y'all came down and we went on the course,
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I've "went" on just about any golf course I've played at.  Hell, it's
    hard to hold them rented beers in fer a whole 18 holes.  Watering trees
    is a sorta golfing tradition!!
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    >>       <<< Note 105.48 by CTHQ::LEARY "I don't do ND spandex" >>>
    >>                -< Izzat why yo' wallet's in yo' sock? >-

    
    >>What, me lend money to Scotsman?? OK, but the typical usury rates are
    >>in order..... 50% interest compounded semi-daily for any Highlander!
    
    >>8^)
    >>MikeL
    
    And this from the person who got all incensed and peaved because OJ
    Simpson made a joke about the Irish.  You Bloody Hypocrite!!!
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

MikeL and I were standing by the side of the road watching the Marathon
go by.   I saw several Irish runners go by, sunburned pretty badly in some
cases, and I said to Mike, "You can always tell and Irish runner".

Mike said to me "I don't see any Scottish guys out here"

I said "That's because you have to pay to run in the marathon."


Mike got a kick out of that.....


'Saw

    HAHA 'Saw,
    And remember JaKe, I've got Scottish ancestry also, so it's like
    poking fun at meself.. And let's not harangue OJ,... I've forgiven
    him in my heart... 8^)
    
    MikeL
    
    

    The (firsted) Chip_GSH_Bach, pre-bachelor party, golf tourney will be
    taking place at the Over_Look in Nashua/Hollis New Hampster at the
    (gulp) end of this month...

    Anyone ever play the 'Look?  Howisit?

    Chip_notBECK_Bach, esq.

>    Anyone ever play the 'Look?  Howisit?

Never heard of it, but let me give you some advice:

	Don't lay up!

8^)

    Not until after the wedding, eh?   ;-)

>    Not until after the wedding, eh?   ;-)

Well, not on the golf course at any rate....8^)

	Haven't played Overlook, but it sure looks nice from the road.
	
	Most of the courses up this way faired pretty well over the winter,
	what with all the snow cover we had.


	hth

	billl	

    Nick Faldo shot a 7 under par 63 to break the course record at the site
    where the British Open is being held (Royal St. George). This is a
    course where last time the BO was held there very few golfers broke par
    for 72 rounds.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>>    Nick Faldo shot a 7 under par 63 to break the course record at the site
>>    where the British Open is being held (Royal St. George). This is a
>>    course where last time the BO was held there very few golfers broke par
>>    for 72 rounds.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    The Crazy Met


	Wow! That's what I call a tournament! How long does this take anyway?


	billl

> >>    course where last time the BO was held there very few golfers broke par
> >>    for 72 rounds.
>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>    The Crazy Met
> 
> 
> 	Wow! That's what I call a tournament! How long does this take anyway?
    
    Ultragolf.  What a concept.  Three rounds a day for 24 consecutive
    days.  Separate the sheep from the goats.
    
    Sid

    Iron Man Golf is right nexted to Full Contact Golf in terms of 
    manly golf games...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Actually its was 24 rounds a day for 3 days non stop golf.  No Tee
    Times no yelling 4 allowed and no carts or caddies.. Just stroke
    stroke stroke and the first one to finish the 72 rounds wins :-)
    
    Hey sounds like how I play golf, whack, whack, whack (woops sorry)
    :-)

	Hey, Iron Man Golf, what a concept!!  We might even get Iron City Beer
	to sponsor it.  Sign me up.

	I wonder if this is considered "real" sport since the club and ball
	do all the work??  (Just kiddin' thar JD)


	billl

    
    Yabbut in fulfilling the need (known or unknown) to be kept abreast of
    sproting events, thisted weekend begins the Ryder Cup golf tournament.
    
    I think it's a bunch of 'mericans versus the Brits over in the isle.
    
    I remain,
    sayin "yer welcome" to those who said "thanks"
    ;^)
    Kev
    

    
    Actually, it's 'mericans vs. Europeans.  The Brits were getting their
    butts kicked regulary, so they opened it up to all of Europe. 
    Nicklaus' idea.
    
    brews

Article: 13115
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (JOHN SALVADO, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.sports.top
Subject: Watson snubs Torrance at dinner
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 10:47:24 PDT
 
	SUTTON COLDFIELD, England (UPI) -- The first note of discord at the
1993 Ryder Cup came about because of a signature -- or the lack of it.
	European Sam Torrance said Thursday he had asked American captain Tom
Watson to autograph his menu Wednesday night at a banquet given for the
competing teams. But, he said, Watson refused.
	``It doesn't bear talking about,'' Torrance said Thursday. ``I've
nothing more to say. I'll show you tomorrow (when the matches start)
what I think.''
	U.S. Open champion Lee Janzen responded to a request for his
signature by saying: ``We've been told not to. We'll do them if you send
them to our team room.''
	Those who had attended a number of the banquets held prior to each
Ryder Cup match could not recall such a refusal before.
	``When Sam came back from asking Watson, he told me he had never felt
so embarrassed in his whole life,'' said European captain Bernard
Gallacher.
	``I can't understand why they didn't want to do any signing. It
seemed to us the right and proper time to do it and at every Ryder Cup
I've been involved in (eight as a player and two as captain), autographs
have been signed.
	``The dinner menu cards are momentos for the people at the gala ball.
In my opinion, it's much better to sign them there than ask for them to
be sent to the team room.''
	Watson played down the significance of the incident.
	``It was an unfortunate incident,'' said Watson. ``I have to
apologize to Sam Torrance for not making it very clear about not signing
autographs. But the reason was that last night with 800 people there, if
we started signing autographs it would spoil the evening for my players.
''
	The autograph affair is the first discordant note to creep into this
year's Ryder Cup. After the hype at Kiawah Island two years ago, which
was promoted as, ``The War on the Shore,'' both Watson and Gallacher had
gone to great lengths to produce a harmonious atmosphere to the 1993
match.

Early results:

Europe 2:

Ian Woosnam/Bernhard Langer beat Payne Stewart/Paul Azinger 7 and 5

Nick Faldo/Colin Montgomerie beat Raymond Floyd/Fred Couples 4 and 3

USA 2:
Tom Kite/Davis Love III beat Jose Maria Olazabal/Severiano Ballesteros
2 and 1.

Corey Pavin/Lanny Wadkins beat Mark James/Sam Torrance 4 and 3

TTom

    	I think golf would be a lot more interesting sport if you could
    use the club on your opponent instead of just the ball.
    
    				/Don

How about a tag-team event. 

Just as Payne Stewart is ready to club Ian Woosman, Bernhard Langer comes
from behind and clubs Payne. Azinger jumps in and while he litigates with
the ref, both Woosman and Langer knock the begeezus outta Stewart.

TTom

    Anyone notice a common thread in /don's suggestions on how to improve
    on various sports?

The USA won today with some great individual play.  I believe the final
was 15-13.....

'Saw

    most interesting facet of ryder cup has to be the concessions and
    conceding of individual putts - thoroughly antiquates rc.
    
    the other interesting thing from yesterday had to be the coverage which
    is nbc+(europe) tv which = maddening.  another one of the traditions
    was u.s. dropping a player to match england injury (same in 91 but
    reverse - u.s. player injured in car accident).
    
    very rarely do professionals in any sport ever deeply care about what
    they are doing - old pennant races in baseball, pre 60s pro football? -
    to react so visibly to the pressure.
    
    it seems the home team in rc feels it the most. final match was
    europe's best vs u.s. best (ok debatable) but was n/a by 16th hole
    where azinger tied faldo after nick went ahead with a hole in 1 on 14.
    
    again, coverage was absolutely, brutally terrible.
    
    imo

    Chip Beck took two, lost zilch.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Actually, Azinger tied Faldo on the 18th, when he rolled in a 12 footer
    for the bird, but as was said the match was already over at that point.
    
    Nice job and terrific comeback by the 'mericans.  I thought they were
    toast after watching Saturday's morning matches.
    
    I too thought the camera coverage was awful.  Does anyone know if they
    use the BBC crew?
    
    					Steve

    yes, I think they use a bbc crew but the problem there is synchonizing
    coverage with description.
    
    But the main problem is endemic to the entire american approach to
    broadcasting an event which I perceive is as follows:
    
    	1.  Decide what Advertisers have money to spend.
    
    	2.  Decide what those who buy the advertisers product like to see.
    		1 and 2 here for brevity sake are for the sports divisions
    of the corps involved - say beer and network.  I'll use superbowl in
    this example.
    	3.  Now an upandcoming workaholic m/f with the title of producer is
    assigned a budget and staff and told to produce [the superbowl]
    
    	4  producer produces a project plan for crew inc broadcasters and
    tries to plan everything that will be seen and said.
    
    	5.  final product is dick enberg tossing cliche after platitude
    after moronic generalization over the event they have rehearsed
    regardless of what actually happens.
    
    Now for something like ryder cup, baseball pennant race they are
    clueless but still trying to follow the process - THEY CANNOT SAY
    ANYTHING that hasn't been discussed by the team beforehand.
    
    Incredibly an english ryder cup would be same camera along with 1/10
    the words and 5 times the information

    Whatever happened to the experiment that I believe was tried during a
    football game a  few years ago?  The one where the announcers said
    absolutely NOTHING for quite a long period of time.  
    
    I'd turn the TV down to stifle these guys, but I do enjoy the roar of the
    crowd.
    
    					Steve

    It was too boring to watch.

    A good team can make a game better.  A bad team annoys.

    
    
    	Yabbut maybe it was Tuesday nighty.  We had thisted tee vee show
    called Discovery 2000 on and one of the segments they had was all about
    getting 8-14% longer distances by (get this) heating yer balls!
    
    They tried to scientifically tell ya that by heating the ball to
    115-125 degrees, the ball's radiant heat "thins" the air in front of it
    and therefore there's less air resistance.
    
    Of course they had some shiller shsow ya the cylinder shaped heating
    tube and all ya gotta do is plug it in for about 8 hours.  Once
    properly heated, ya transfer the balls to a special insulated cylinder
    which they claimed would keep the balls hot for 3 hours or so.
    
    Of course, there was the obligatory "test" and they did show that the
    balls that were heated did go further.
    
    If ya can believe what ya see on tee vee, they said that this is
    perfectly legal, if ya heat them before ya get on the course!
    
    Soooo, all you duffers and cheaters, if ya want longer drives, heat
    yer balls before ya play!
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Jack_Nichelaus

    My Dad, when he was working, used to go golfing after coming home from
    work in the morning.  he worked goofy shifts for the railroad, mostly
    something like 10:30 pm to about 8 am.  
    
    One morning, he came home from work, and was getting ready to go
    golfing.  he had left his bag in the car the night before, and the temp
    was in the 30's, and the forecast was for the temp to go up to about
    45-50 degrees.  he took the balls that were in his bag, put them in a
    pan of water and put them on the stove to just "warm" them up, as the
    lasted note suggested.  Well, something happened in the basement, and
    he was working on that when my sister(about 16 at the time) called
    downstairs and asked why my dad was boiling his golf balls.  
    
    He came upstairs, shut the gas off under the pan, poured out the water
    and had a bunch of golfballs that woulda stopped dead on the hardest of
    greens.  Probably woulda stuck to the driver when ya hit it, too.
    
    He's taken a lot of harrassment about boiling his balls over the years.
    
    JaKe
    

Is Greg Norman the only guy in America to have choked more than Dean???
unbelievable yesterday. what a bonehead....

mike

    Bogied 4 out of the last 5 holes....
    
    REK

    For those on the edge of their seats...
    
    John Daly has been suspended for picking up last Sunday in Hawaii.
    
    Still not drinking but having a rough go of it - He's not in a sport
    where he gets paid whether he earns it or not (except for a nice chunk
    of appearance money/pro-am type stuff).
    
    Good Luck John - keep hitting it

Picking up what?

A girl, his ball, cocaine?


Enquiring and all that SLOF

'Saw

    HE had a couple of horrid holes in a row, and was in the middle of his
    third hole when he just picked up the ball and left the course,
    disgusted as all hell.  Guess it'll cost him some money now.
    
    JaKe
    

He  failed to put out after missing a birdie putt and then left the course and
was suspended for x number of tourneys. He says the pressure of staying sober
is getting to him but he isn't drinking again...

Best of luck to ya Big John...

Metz
  

    Just heerd on the radio that Paul Azinger has cancer, some sorta
    Lymphoma, and will miss the nexted 9 months of the Tour whilst
    undergoing treatment.  DOcs say that he has a 90% chance of beating it.
    
    JaKe
    

    	The other day, I heard Paul Azinger talking about the friendship
    	that he and Payne Stewart have. Azinger said that, after he had
    	made some big putt or something to be Steward, he walked in the
    	club house to find his shoes stuffed with bananas. Azinger knew
    	it had to be Stewart. So, the next day/tournament/whatever,
    	Azinger, playing behind Stewart, drained the drink containers
    	at every hole, and wrote on them "We need water, we're dying
    	out here" and signed it "Payne Stewart." Officials came up
    	later and asked Payne why he wrote on all the drink containedrs.
    	Payne was perplexed, then the light bulb came on. He said,
    	"Azinger really has my signature down." Azinger had said the
    	same thing.
    
    	Funny story; sad news.
    
    	Scott

Sounds similar (in a way) to what Karl Nelson had, but I don't like the
sounds of lymphoma.

Hopefully he'll take his time, get well, and then try and come back.

He's a local kid, from Rhode Island.....


'Saw

    In the shoulder.  They say its the type thats 90% curable.
    
    I like 'Zinger.  Best wishes to his quick cure.

Yesterday Johnny Miller became the first golfer ever to win Pebble Beach
in three decades, beating a host of other golfer (among them Watson)
by a stroke.

The weather looked really sh*tty and there was a veritable log jam in second
place.

Nice to see Miller win.....

'Saw

    
    
    	Yabbut donchas know that if ya wanna play 18 holes o' golf
    at Pebble Beach, ya fork over something like $225.00!!!!!!!
    
    YOWZA!!!!!!
    
    I remain,
    thinking I payed ~$130.00 for all of lasted year & 12+ outings
    Kev
    

   > Yesterday Johnny Miller became the first golfer ever to win Pebble
   > Beach in three decades, beating a host of other golfer (among them
   > Watson)by a stroke.
    
    Did everyone lose in the last three decades, or no one finished?  Am I
    missing something?
    
    brews  

Miller probably won in 1979 and 1980, by winning yesterday he won in 3 different
decades.

The Crazy Met

    I knew that, I was just MaBing(TM) 'saw.
    
    brews

more like an RCASO decoding ring.

The Crazy Met

    
     I wanna watch golf...I wanna watch 'left-right'..
    
       Let's watch both:
    
    
     Latest issue of Runners World Magazine has some info
    on the latest "left-right' golf championship.
    
      The winner ran an 18 hole course in 42 minutes while 
    shooting an 85 thereby giving him a score of 127.
      
      Second place covered the course in 40 minutes, but shot an 88,
    giving him a score of 128.
    
      Don't remember the names, numbers might be off to0 {but not much}
    
    
      
        
      

    Is this the gun control lobby's answer to the biathalon?

    well, they've teed off by now.  I didn't see Nick Faldo's name in
    pairings and he would be my pick.
    
    Watch out for Johnny Miller.  Couples is not playing.
    
    Another dark horse is John Daly

and though he is 50+ never, ever, ever count out Jack Nicklaus
at the Masters.

Sort of like Tom Watson at the British Open
Martina Navratilova at Wimbeldon
Chris Evert at the French Open

Some atheletes have events that they made their own and often have
one last surprise left.

The Crazy Met

after 3 straight 2nd place finishes in tournments he entered, I got to go
with the Fuzzman!!!!!!!

mike

	I'm with Mike.  Fuzzy is due!


	billl

    	Golf is about as much a sport as figure skating...

>>    	Golf is about as much a sport as figure skating...

 Slash, how can you say such a thing? You can't figure skate and drink
 beer at the same time (unless you want waste good beer or in your case
 cheap beer) but golf 18 holes, 18 beers is a perfect fit. If you can
 drink while you play it's got to be a sport, right?

 ;^)

 mike

    /don, at least you don't have some guy holding up a scorecard telling
    you how well he thinks you did.

I'm all for Fuzzy - one of the most personable guys on tour.....

>>    /don, at least you don't have some guy holding up a scorecard telling
>>    you how well he thinks you did.
    
  Well hold on a sec pardner..plenty_a_times my golfin' buds have put
    me down for an 8 when I definitely holed a 7...
    
    MikeL
    

    What happened, Mike?  Did they mark you down for artistic impression
    when you sliced a ball into one of their foreheads?

	The Fuzzter did not fare very well yesterday in the first round.
	He's 6 behind Larry Mize's leading 68.

	It's kinda heart warming for a hacker like myself to see these
	guys struggle a little.  Too often watching their shots is kinda
	like watching David Coperfield make an elephant disappear.  "How'd
	he do that?"


	billl 

Another favorite of mine, Ray Floyd, is doing well.  I think he's two 
back.


'Saw

    
    	Yabbut and John "crusher" Daly is also 6 back.
    
    Amazing how those guys can get a ball to roll backwards on a drive
    too!
    
    I remain,
    usually 6+ by the 3rd hole
    Kev
    

    
    
    	Yabbut here's a interesting bit of trivia (well maybe not).
    
    I believe that to keep the Augusta National Course so beautiful, it
    closes for 6 months each year (the summer) so the grass doesn't get
    burned out and trampled.
    
    It's a private club with a total membership of ~300 (who's net worth
    is ~10 Billion dollars)!
    
    I remain,
    unfortunately, not on their membership waiting list  :*(
    Kev
    

 

 something I'm sure we can all relate to from yesterday......

 15 th hole Payne Steward, plunks his second shot in the water, drops
 his ball, and proceeds to hit an easy 75 yard wedge, hits it to easy
 and plunks another one in the water....finishes with a 9 on the hole.
 
 as the Dew boys say:

 "been there. done that"........

 mike    

Article: 17408
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (Reuters)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc
Subject: Golf-Pairings for Second Round of the Masters Tournament
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 17:00:08 PDT
 
	 AUGUSTA, Ga. (Reuter) - Pairings for the second round of the
Masters Tournament Friday (players U.S. unless noted,
a-amateur):
	 8:30 (1230 gmt) Gay Brewer 84
	 8:38 Steve Elkington (Australia) 81, a-Iain Pyman (Britain) 82
	 8:46 Charles Coody 80, Anders Forsbrand (Sweden) 80
	 8:54 Blaine McCallister 79, Costantino Rocca (Italy) 79
	 9:02 Payne Stewart 78, Fred Funk 79
	 9:10 Jack Nicklaus 78, Peter Baker (Britain) 78
	 9:18 Arnold Palmer 78, a-Danny Ellis 78
	 9:26 Colin Montgomerie (Britain) 77, a-Jeffrey Thomas 78
	 9:34 Mike Standly 77, John Cook 77
	 9:50 Nolan Henke 77, Rick Fehr 77
	 9:58 Johnny Miller 77, Bob Estes 77
	 10:06 Craig Stadler 76, Billy Casper 77
	 10:14 Jumbo Ozaki (Japan) 76, Sam Torrance (Britain)
	 10:22 Nick Faldo (Britain) 76, Davis Love 76
	 10:30 John Daly 76, Ian Woosnam (Britain) 76
	 10:38 John Adams 76, Barry Lane (Britain) 76
	 10:46 Dudley Hart 76, John Inman 76
	 10:54 Loren Roberts 75, Tommy Aaron 76
	 11:10 Lee Janzen 75, Craig Parry (Australia) 75
	 11:18 Sandy Lyle (Britain) 75, Jeff Maggert 75
	 11:26 Mark O'Meara 75, Scott Hoch 75
	 11:34 Jeff Sluman 74, Mark Calcavecchia 75
	 11:42 Jose Maria Olazabal (Spain) 74, Fuzzy Zoeller 74
	 11:50 Nick Price (Zimbabwe) 74, Bernhard Langer (Germany) 74
	 11:58 Wayne Grady (Australia) 74, Dan Forsman 74
	 12:06 Grant Waite (New Zealand) 74, Scott Simpson 74
	 12:22 Jim Gallagher 74, Brett Ogle (Australia) 74
	 12:30 Ben Crenshaw 74, Ernie Els (South Africa) 74
	 12:38 Andrew Magee 74, David Frost 74
	 12:46 Billy Mayfair 74, Curtis Strange 74
	 12:54 David Edwards 73, Gil Morgan 74
	  1:02 Howard Twitty 73, Lanny Wadkins 73
	  1:10 a-John Harris 72, Hale Irwin 73
	  1:18 Jay Haas 72, John Huston 72
	  1:34 Jim McGovern 72, Bill Glasson 72
	  1:42 Chip Beck 71, Hajime Meshiai (Japan) 71
	  1:50 Gary Player (South Africa) 71, Brad Faxon 71
	  1:58 Corey Pavin 71, Russ Cochran 71
	  2:06 Greg Norman (Australia) 70, Ian Baker-Finch (Australia)
71
	  2:14 Vijay Singh (Fiji) 70, Tom Watson 70
	  2:22 Raymond Floyd 70, Seve Ballesteros (Spain) 70
	  2:30 Tom Kite 69, Tom Lehman 70
	  2:38 Larry Mize 68, Fulton Allem (South Africa) 69

	Kev, this reminds me.  When is that ::sprots golf tournament
	you was organizin'?


	billl

    I'll let youze guys know when the Worcester Rugby Open takes place. 
    It's a nice, inexpensive tournament that's usually held in June or July
    at Greenhill CC in Worcester.
    
    And no, it is not full contact golf.

    
    		Yabbut I heard that Paul Azinger, the golfer who dropped
    from the tour 'cause of bone cancer has apparently, with the help
    of chemotherapy, beaten it!
    	There's talk that he may try to re-enter the tour and defend his
    champeenship at the Pleasant Valley Open (or whatever they're calling
    it thisted year.
    
    I remain,
    still a duffer who ain't gotten out thisted year
    Kev
    

I thinks it's called "remission" not cured.

In any case, he looked good even though he was balder 'n a cue ball.

TTom

>In any case, he looked good even though he was balder 'n a cue ball.

That's why Daly shaved his haid -- so that Zinger wouldn't feel bad!

There's a bunch of school kids out in California that did it for a classmate...

fw

After my wife, Rhonda, became a Sinead-look-a-like I considered doing the
same thing, shaving my head, but she was dead set against it.  Something
along the lines of "your ugly enough now" was said, but I can't remember
the exact words.


billl

    
    	Yabbut 'zinger also told a crowd a story that went something like,
    "after all those years of seein bald guys dunk basketballs, I saw
    myself in da mirror.  Then I put on some sneakers, got my basketball,
    and whattya know?  I can dunk too!"
    
    He's a class act

Zinger is a local boy from Rhode Island, and I know he has relatives in
CT, because they always come out in force when he's in the GHO.


Bill, Rhonda was right.  Besides, bald women are tres sexy....


'Saw

    
>>That's why Daly shaved his haid -- so that Zinger wouldn't feel bad!
    
    Now they cain put there haids together and make an ass of themselves!!
    
    (8^)*
    JaKe
    

 He also told a story of when he started the chemo and the hair was coming
 out he was having a birthday party for his 8 year old daughter and he let
 her and all her friends pull it out for him........

 Great that he could take it that lightly put I still rather have played
 pin the tail on the donkey or if the girls for Melrose Place where there
 than Spin the Bottle..........

 mike who missing the wedding of the year, stuck here at work hoping
 Karen's tapping it for me..........

 ;^)

    New England Sprotsnoters mark you calendars for July 30th.  This will
    be the day of the annual WRFC Open.  All hackers are welcome.  Pick a
    partner, the tournament director will draw foursomes from the pairs on
    the day of the tourney.  

    What does WRFC stand for?
    
    NAZZ

>
>    What does WRFC stand for?
>    


Woostah Rugby Football Club....

    Who really, nah never mind... (smiley goes here).

    
>>    What does WRFC stand for?
    
    We Really F--K Cats
    
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

    Did we really need that?
    
    Mark.

no. 

so what?

The Crazy Met

    
    >>Did we really need that?
    
    >>Mark.
    
    The real question is, Do we really need YOU????
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

    Well, the U.S. Open starts here in the Pittsburgh area tomorrow at
    Oakmont Country CLub.
    
    Many of the pros are predicting high scoring, due to Oakmont's famed
    lightning fast greens.  Fred Couples said today that he pities anyone
    who leaves himself ABOVE the hole on the green, and doesn't sink the
    putt.  He said there is NO WAY to stop the ball anywhere near the hole
    on downhill putts.
    
    Many of the pros being interviewed after their practice rounds are
    being quoted as "hoping for rain" to slow down the slick putting
    surfaces.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    It's impolite to use the word "lightning" when talking
    about golf.
    

>    
>    It's impolite to use the word "lightning" when talking
>    about golf.
>    


Only if you're talking to Lee Trevino....

      My main man,  the Golden Bear is looking good after round 1.
    
      Tim

    On the 18th hole in the playoff, Loren Roberts is +3, Ernie Els is +4,
    and Clin Montgomerie is +7.  Don't know who won though.
    
    NAZZ

Is Roberts American?

    Yep - the only one of the three.
    
    NAZZ

>    Yep - the only one of the three.
>    
>    NAZZ

Good, I hope he won!

    are you sure it was the 18th whole, those are the same scores I got
    at 1:30 on the 12th ????
    
    Can someone verify the results ??? and who won ??
    
    							MaB

    	I've heard that Roberts and Els finished at +3, Montgomery at +7.
    Roberts and Els were teeing off at the 10th in a "sudden victory"
    playoff... 

    The winner is Ernie Els.
    
    Nazz

 I'm happy Els won it. He deserve it imo. Who cares what nationality a
 guy is? Unless of course it's those dirty Irish footballers beating
 on Italia........

 ;^)

    
    
       I here Roberts missed a 6 foot birdie putt on hole 10 that could
    have won it!
    
    
    Chap

> I'm happy Els won it. He deserve it imo. Who cares what nationality a
> guy is? Unless of course it's those dirty Irish footballers beating
> on Italia........


I always root for the 'mericans.....

         <<< Note 105.171 by CAMONE::WAY "Real men use iron sights" >>>

> I'm happy Els won it. He deserve it imo. Who cares what nationality a
> guy is? Unless of course it's those dirty Irish footballers beating
> on Italia........


>> I always root for the 'mericans.....


 WHY? especially let say it some guy you depise. Let's say it's Dan Reeves
 just for kicks. I mean you might root for him against George Young (or
 hope for lighting) but if it was Dan against anyone else on the planet
 from a different country why would root for Dan???????

 ;^)

    	Who cares?  Golf is soccer with sticks...
    
    				  /Don

Well, Dan Reeves isn't a 'merican.  No one like that could be 'merican....


I don't know.  I guess if it's a bunch of guys I don't know, I always
pick the 'merican, just like some folks always pick the underdog or
whatever.

Like if it was Roberts against the Shark, I root for the Shark.  Why?
Because I've followed him before and root for him.

But with unknowns I'll root for the 'merican.


And if it was George Young, I'm rooting a big ol vein-popping,
eye-bulging coronary.....8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

    
    
      Shut this conference down. Folks is apologising for cheering
     on 'mericans and they're talking up soccer mainly because the 
     players are cute. It's a good thing Hawk and T and the rest of 
     them ain't here to see this. Now I know what they mean in those
     B movies when they say that the living will envy the dead.

>I always root for the 'mericans.....
    
So you were rooting for the Rangers?
    

>So you were rooting for the Rangers?


More or less.  As I mentioned several times in the Ranger note, my dad
knows Dave Babych, so I wouldn't have been disappointed if the Canucks had
won, but I was pulling for the Rangers pretty heavily -- especially for
Brian Leetch.


'Saw
    

    well the u.s. open has always been an important event with me although
    my own golfing career has diminished thru overall lack of interest.
    
    I put it on tape but heard the final on the way home on eei of all
    places but
    
    when I ran the tape lo and behold they had pre-empted the PLAYOFF FOR
    THE U.S. OPEN for a lousy arraignment where even the lawyers were about
    to fall asleep, (o.j. was so sedated he truly was half-asleep)
    
    Who makes a decision like that and where are the Heidi people who did
    so much for sport viewing by initmidating networks for years by the
    violent response to its showing at the wrong time.

	Tom Watson was tied for the lead in the British Open as of the time
	I came in this morning.  Not bad for an old guy, huh?

	Kevin

    But how can you like the guy.  He's got a pile of that anti-charisma
    stuff somewhere at home.
    
    brews

  I just like to watch Watson hit the ball. He has that picture perfect smooth
swing that he learned from Byron Nelson back in the early 70's. When he was at
his peak he use to talk about what side of the cup he'd shoot for on his
approach shot. Other guys were just happy to get it close. 

  Remember that British open where he and Jack ran away from the field and were
tied going into the last hole? I believe that Jack got par and Watson ran in a
birdie for the win. That was quite the match.

  George

    
    
>>>    	Who cares?  Golf is soccer with sticks...
    
    				  /Don
    
    
    
    		Yabbut since ya brought it up Slasher, also over the
    weekend was the other exciting sprot of golf and it was the British
    Open.  Natcherally, just to help MrT in case he ever gets to read this,
    it was held over on the British Isle, pretty far away from New Orleans!
    ;^)
    
    	Oh yeah, some guy named Nick Price won it - I guess that makes him
    the MVP right?
    
    snort schelpp schnops!
    
    I remain,
    still a golf fuzzy thisted year (1x so far)
    Kev
    

Price sank a phenonmenal 40 footer to eagle and take the lead on the 17th.
You'll see that one on the highlight film for years.

My personal favorite, Fuzzy Zoeller did well, finish 4th or so I believe...


'Saw

    
    
    	Yabbut if Fuzzy's your favorite, I gotsa see if you pass the
    fan test.
    
    	What's Fuzzy's real name?
    
    I remain,
    loaded!
    Kev
    

>    
>    	Yabbut if Fuzzy's your favorite, I gotsa see if you pass the
>    fan test.
>    
>    	What's Fuzzy's real name?
    
If memory serves me correctly, it's Frank Urban Zoeller.  His initials
are F.U.Z, which is where the Fuzzy comes from.....


'Saw    

    I'm impressed 'Saw and I'm putting a prize in the mail for you tonight
    
    

>
>    I'm impressed 'Saw and I'm putting a prize in the mail for you tonight
>    

Well, we guys named Frank kind of tend to know who the other guys named
Frank are...

'Saw
    

    
    
    	Yabbut, speaking about being frank....
    
    I'm gonna be blunt on thisted one.  Ya see, there's some kind of PGA
    tournament going on at the Pleasant Valley CC in Sutton.  John Daly
    is the "big name" pro playing.
    
    Well, he's not playing anymore.  Yesterday he pulled out claiming
    "back pain".
    
    there!
    
    I remain,
    thinking the promoters are a bit upset
    Kev
    

    What an unbelieveable collapse at the US Women's Open by a Swede named
    Helen Alfredsson. Normally,I don't give a hoot about women's golf,but
    this woens' putting was absolutely mindboggling.
    
    Her first two rounds of 63 and 69 were a course record(-12) and after
    birding the 7th in the 3rd round she had moved to -13 and a huge lead.
    On the next hole,she had a four-footer for a birdie,but proceeded to
    miss badly and bogey and wound up missing all kinds of short putts on 
    her way to 76,followed by a 77 yesterday for an incredible 1 over par
    score which put her well back. 

David, you've got to play with those little girls of yours more - you 
definintly have too much time on your hands if you watch women's golf.

(insert smiley thing)

Actually, there was a girl who was paired with Alfredsson on Friday who
was quite attractive -- don't remember her name.

Why was I watching it?  Well, while Big John and I were in Eli Cannon's,
home of the 75 different beers and most excellent Jalapeno Pepper Bombs, 
(and also the only place in the area with hot sauces so hot they rate
a Biological Hazard warning sticker) they had it on ESPN.....


'Saw

    
    I see the admirable Paul Azinger makes his return to the U.S circuit
    today in the Buick Classic. Good luck to  him.
    
    Tony
    
    ps Nick Faldo will win it however!!!
    
    

    The winner will be the one who is putting best this week.
    
    For an American tour-stop tournement I doubt there is a player in the
    world who rates better than 7-10:1 odds.  Norman would be the best
    single one to pick but there are 100 PGA golfers today capable of
    winning a Buick Open, 60% of them unknown to the average fan.
    
    However, I would guess that 90% of the money would cover about 8
    golfers down at Nashawtuc this weekend.

    Anyone else catch the Tiger Woods story over the weekend?  This kid may
    be the next Nicklaus in the way he can dominate the sport.  I've been
    following him since he was about 15, and he is something.  On Thursdaoy
    or Friday of last week, he was 5 down after 12 holes vin the US
    Amateur.  He has just urned 18, will be going to Stanford thgis year,
    and is playing agianst the golf coach for the U of Fla.  The kid came
    back to beat him.  Yesterday he was 6 down and came back to win.  It
    was the biggest comeback in the history of the US Amateur.
    
    He is now the youngest ever to win  US Amateur and US Junior Amateur. 
    And he seems like a fairly normal kid.  Watch out for him in 3-4 years
    after he gets done with college.  We'll also get to see him at the
    MAsters, US Open, And British Open next year.  One of the best shot
    makers you'll ever see.
    
    brews

>> One of the best shot makers you'll ever see.

	Next to me, of course.


	billl

    He said shot makers, not shot chuggers...
    

	speakin a 'flushers', Don I thought of a great party hat for you.
	
	I'm sure you've seen the hard hats with holders on either side
	and tubing that comes down so you can drink out of the cans and
	keep your hands free.

	Well, your version would have the tubes coming down and into
	your nose.  That way the overflow will not be wasted.



	billl

btw those are really great hats.

The Crazy Met

    Stanford?!  He should've went to ASU where all the best golfers go.

    Stanford?!  He should've went to ASU where all the best golfers go.


Other than Phil Mickelson recently most ASU student are a bust on the 
pro tour.  

>Other than Phil Mickelson recently most ASU student are a bust on the 
>pro tour.  
    
    obviously you aren't including the wimmin!

    Didn't think he was eligible for the wimmin's tour...
    

    
      Academically speaking ASU is to Stanford as Bob's Television
     Repair School is to MIT.

Comparing Stanford to MIT is like Steak to Tofu. 

Jeff

    Tommy, you forgot to mention that Bob is an MIT grad.

    re: .207
    
    how did I get involved in this SDUC???
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
     re: .196   Tiger Woods
    
    >>  I've been following him since he was about 15..
      
    
      Don't your legs get tired?
    
    

    	For anyone interested in getting out to play once more thisted
    year, Don Goguen will be around next week and we're getting a few 
    guys together on Monday the 17th to play golf. Monday is the only
    day that he can make it. If you're interested in playing and bidding
    Don adieu before he moves to Pennsylvania, drop me a mail message.
    	Tentative site is Butternut GC in Stowe. The cost is $22 and NO
    carts are available there. I'd like to get an idea by Thursday so I
    can try and reserve a couple of tee times based on a head count. I'll
    try to get the starting times for around 10am...
    	Send this to anyone that may be interested.
    
    	Keith

  >  For anyone interested in getting out to play once more thisted    year
    
    Once more this year?  The weather's just turning nice now.  Once the
    #$@%$@#543ing overseeding gets done, it'll be perfect golf weather
    (except the prices will be too high).
    
    Tell Don I said "hi!"  He's one of the few noters who've had the extreme
    pleasure of meeting me in person.
    
    brews

    Say Hi to Don for me, too. 
    
    Lee

    Tell Goguen the Candlepin/10 pin/Duckpin debate is back on Sprots.  It
    ain't the same without him.
    
    RTG

    re golf discussion in the 'git tagether' note:
    
    I played at the new course in Salem NH last sunday.  It's called
    Campbells Scottish Highlands.  The course was short, about 6400
    from the blues, but was a real treat.  You do need to either be a
    mountain goat or get a cart, though.
    
    
    billl

>    I played at the new course in Salem NH last sunday.  It's called
>    Campbells Scottish Highlands.  The course was short, about 6400
>    from the blues, but was a real treat.  You do need to either be a
>    mountain goat or get a cart, though.
    
Plus they have bitchin' shirts!


Tell me they had heather on the hills, and I can die a happy man....8^)

     and while walking across the mersey you could hear the distant pipes
    
    
    
    billl

|Tell me they had heather on the hills, and I can die a happy man....8^)

I've had Heather on...

Ahh, never mind.

    
    Anyone watch the Phoenix open on ESPN right before the SuperBowl?  They
    spent quite a bit of time talking about John Adams, who's been on the
    Tour 17 years and hasn't won.  HE ended up in 4th place yesterday.  The
    guy lives in my neighborhood, just down the street!  I was talking to
    him about going fishing at our last homeowner meeting, he's big into bass 
    fishing.  His wife is also a babe.  The guy knocks the ball a mile.  HE
    ended up second in the longest drive contest to Daly.  
    
    brews 

	I havn't been able to access the Golf note since FEB 16th, I keep
	getting a "Remote node does not respond" or some such crap, whats
	going on, did they change nodes or something???

	Turk

Turk,

I just got in.

The conference is OPS5::GOLF. OPS5 may have changed it's address. I show
it at 9.860.

TTom

>	I havn't been able to access the Golf note since FEB 16th, I keep
>	getting a "Remote node does not respond" or some such crap, whats
>	going on, did they change nodes or something???
>
>	Turk


Maybe you misspelled Rocco Mediate's name or something?


8^)

    I was listening to Mustard in the kitchen sunday morning and some guy
    called in about noon and Craig says "Tell me you weren't out there
    today"
    
    Sure enough, eight of them teed off at farenheit 16 down in Bourne or
    Wallaston or somewhere.
    
    Myself, having mastered the game I only make an appearance now and
    then.  I do perhaps set one new record every outing...
    
    Most different manufacturers, clubs in one bag - about 8 different
    makes last I looked

>>The conference is OPS5::GOLF. OPS5 may have changed it's address. I show
>>it at 9.860.

	This was the crux of the problem, I'm in now..
	Thanks TTom

	Turk

>At least make it a 1-iron.  Even God cain't hit a good 1-iron.

  That old joke reminds me of one of my favorite moments in spectator sport. I
was at Pleasant Valley watching the pros and because it was a "designated
tournament" that year, everyone had to show up. You could get real close to the
action for most players but getting close up to Jack Nicklaus took some skill.

  I saw him and his army coming down the 15th and I headed up to the 17th tee
which looked over a slight dog leg right over water. I waited, watching a few
players hit and then the swarm came up toward the tee but I had my spot right
at the rope. 

  Then the crowd opened and Jack walked up onto the tee. It was just as if I
was in his group, he couldn't have been more than 8 feet away. He stuck his tee
in the ground with the ball up kind of high and Anglio handed him his 1 iron. I
couldn't believe how high he hit the ball, well up over the trees as it faded
around the dog leg and landed dead center in the fairway just short of the
green. 

  I guess you had to be there to appreciate how awsome that moment was but
it's something I'll never forget. As far as everyone there was concerned, we
had all just seen God hit a 1 iron.

  George

>
>  I guess you had to be there to appreciate how awsome that moment was but
>it's something I'll never forget. As far as everyone there was concerned, we
>had all just seen God hit a 1 iron.
>

My mom has a similar memory from the GHO one year.  She'd followed Fuzzy
Zoeller around (Francis Urban Zoeller in case anyone asks me again) and
he was in an even more jovial mood than usual this day, and at one tee
he walks over to my mom (who's pretty vocal most of the time) and tells her
he's not sure which club to use, does she have any suggestions?

She still loves to tell that story.....

For the most part, the pro golfers that I've come across have been
very friendly folks (except for Andy Bean who's a wise-assed b_____d)


'Saw

    By the way if anyone in here is interested I run a golf league on
    Tuesdays at Green Meadow and I hereby invite any of you to send me mail
    if interested.
    
    We should probalby have a golf outing some time this spring or summer.
    
    Billte

	Speaking of golf, the US Women's Open is being held in Colorado Springs
	at the Broadmoor this year.  Not a bad deal if you're working it.  I 
	have to work two equivalent days (out of seven) plus I have to buy a 
	shirt and hat (for $50).  For that, I get to watch the tournament the 
	other 5 days and I get a free round of golf at the Broadmoor.  The 
	round of golf is worth at least $100.

	Kevin
	

   > My mom has a similar memory from the GHO one year.  She'd followed
   > FuzzyZoeller around (Francis Urban Zoeller in case anyone asks me
   > again) andhe was in an even more jovial mood than usual this day, and
   > at one teehe walks over to my mom (who's pretty vocal most of the time)
   > and tells herhe's not sure which club to use, does she have any
   > suggestions?
    
    She shouldn't get so excitd, 'saw.  If anyone, she should know that
    anyone wth Francis as a first name never knows what the hell they are
    doing.
    
    brews

>    She shouldn't get so excitd, 'saw.  If anyone, she should know that
>    anyone wth Francis as a first name never knows what the hell they are
>    doing.
    
I dunno, I kind of like it.....  I mean, if his first name was Bruce, they'd
have to call him Buzzy.....8^)

    Billte, what are the tee times for your Tuesday league?  If I'm 
    still here in NIO (Salem) it would be tough, but if all goes 
    well, I'll be in a new job in MKO (Merrimack) by then.
    
    
    billl

    
    
     About 7 or 8 years ago at the Phoenix Open, I had a very good vantage
    point at the 10th tee. As Jack was getting ready to hit, about 30
    pigeons landed on the front of the tee box. He never said a word, he
    just stopped, looked at them like he was "Mother Nature", and they all
    took off. He then hit the ball dead center, about 290 out.
    
      What a guy!!
    
    

    My pick for the Masters is Davis Love who finally qualified by winning
    the New Orleans tournement last Sunday.
    
    Norman,Faldo,Price and Langer will be very tough.
    
    Daly skipped the TPC to gear up for this and his length has certain
    advantages.  Touch and nerve are questionable.

 yeah but wouldn't it be great if Tiger beat em' all?

 guys I'd like to see win: Mickelson (lefty) Jacobsen (nice guy) or Leeman
 cause he was so close last year. 

 mike

They changed the Masters this year.

You used to be able to just show up and watch the practice rounds on
Tuesday and Wednesday. Now you need a freakin ticket just to watch what
don't count. Supposedly, a great many people were turned away.

This used to be a fun thing to do. Go down and follow some of the current
greats as they banter and practice. I got to follow Daly a couple of
years ago and he was trying to figger out how to reach Amen Corner in 2
shots. The green has a steep slope down into a creek for those who
haven't seen the course. All his attempts ended up in said same creek.

Another story at thised year's Master is the appearance of amatuer champ
Tiger Woods. He played a practice round with Ray Floyd, Fred Couples and
Greg Norman. Woods supposedly was hitting his tee shots right up there
with all of 'em.

TTom

I like Mickelson, being a lefty myself.

I also like Ray Floyd, Jacobsen, and Payne Stewart....


'Saw

    
    	Paper says that Tiger Woods reach the 500 yrd Par 5 ? hole in 2
    during practice. He reached it with a driver, 9 iron, then sunk the
    putt for Eagle.
    
    Ron

I think it was the 15th. Supposedly, Tiger claims he can reach all the
par 5s in 2 shots.

But a word of caution for young Woods. The Augusta course is not hard
because it is long. Many golfers on the tour can reach these 5s in 2. The
trick is staying on the course, outta the water, etc. Daly is a good
example. He'll probably never win the Masters because he's such a big
hitter. A little bit off the straight and narrow is disastorous on this
course.

When asked about Tiger, Norman said that he's good enough to win!

TTom

 yes it was the 15 th playing 536 yards and he supposedly hit a 356 yard
 drive so 180 left is an awfully big 9 iron......

 Norman also said the Tiger was longer than him and that was because he was
 an old man....

 mike

    I left out (somehow) Ernie Els from that foreign group not to speak of
    Woosnam who's won before.  There's a few other English who can use a
    stick other than in a soccer riot.
    
    Woods is a phenom the only thing like him is Nicklaus himself who was
    runner up in the Open out of Ohio State.  Jack can't be completely
    discounted not Seve.
    
    Length is one of the necessities for the Masters but equipment has
    taken care of that for many pros.  Ability to putt on glass greens is
    #2 and finally as mentioned pure nerve which the foreigners have used
    to win 6 of last 7.

I just heard that Tiger Woods injured his back practicing today and had
to leave the course. Supposedly, it's not too serious, that he left as a
precaution and that he's expected to play tomorrow.

The thing that most of the golfers are talking about is the speed of the
greens. Daly is quoted as saying that the powers that be don't want to
see a bunch of double digit unders so they've practically polished the
greens rock hard.

TTom

    re rock hard greens:
    
    That's no problem for someone who never misses a putt.
    
    Not that I know anyone like that, though.
    
    
    
    billl

Perhaps the most misleading part of the course is the elevation changes.
If'n you've only seen it on TV, you caint see how the terrain varies.

And the whole course might have one square inch of flat greens.

TTom

    For anyone interested: the home page on the web for Masters coverage:
    
    http://www.cris.com:80/~Masters/
    
    
    	My choice: Davis Love III or Peter Jacobsen. Both playing well this
    year...
    
    Keith
    
    BTW, I'll tell REK that y'all said hi. Me and the missus be goin' out
    with thm on Saturday night.

Hey Keith,

As REK how his candlepin bowling average is doing these days.  Thx. RTG

>    BTW, I'll tell REK that y'all said hi. Me and the missus be goin' out
>    with thm on Saturday night.


Tell him I said I hope he gets a job in a vets office that only handles
dogs....8^)

 Of special note for amusement purposes only I think the odds on Els were
 12-1. Not bad odds. Even the favorite Nick Faldo was 7-1. 

 Daly was like 40-1. 

 mike

Great pairing: lasted year's winner Jose Maria Olazabal with Tiger Woods.

TTom

       
        OK I've Assigned each of the below players a number
     the first 14 people to send me mail gets one of them according to
    which mail message I get first (ie if Gary player was #5 the 5th mail
    message I get would get player) Its all luck!! I'll give the winner a 
    prize! Number 14 get the rest of the field....
	
	Nick Faldo		7:1
	Greg Norman		8:1
	Ernie Els		8:1
	Nick Price		10:1
	Ian Woosnan		10:1
	Davis Love III		10:1
	Fred Couples		12:1
	Bernhard Langer		15:1
	Corey Pavin		18:1
	Jose Maria Olazabal	18:1
	...
	Jack Nicklaus		250:1
	John Daly		500:1
	Tiger Woods		100,000:1

    
    
    Few more left boys lets go....

    I like Nick Price to win the MAsters, don't know why, though.
    
    brews

    
    
    2 more!!!

    Tiger Woods is listed at 1000-1 as far as odds go, but I'd love to see
    the kid win the thing.
    
    JaKe
    

    
      This be them...
    
        I gave Frank Way #14 because noone else was responding and I know
    he likes Mickleson (part of the field)
    
    1 Jimbo McKay        Davis Love III
    2 Tom Haas           Greg Norman
    3 Chappy             Corey Pavin  (sorry Karen)
    4 Mark Macdonald     Fred Couples
    5 Bill Long          Nick Faldo
    6 Mike Childs        Ernie Els
    7 Nazz               Nick Price
    8 Karen Derry        Ian Woosnan
    9 Mike Breen         Bernhardt Langer
   10 Steve Morgan       Tiger Woods
   11 Brews              Jack Nicklaus
   12 D.Zogran           John Daly
   13 Jake               Jose Maria Olazabal
   14 Frank Way          THE FIELD
    
         BTW I took the number right after Ttom. I wish he woulda
    waited one more so I could have got Freddy BOOM BOOM. :-) In other
    words before I started I said I would Take the corresponding number
    to Tom and if he didn't enter (I knew he would) it was gonna be after
    KD, I know she never misses a contest. :-)
    
    
    Chap

    
    Anyone wanna trade for a Golden Bear?

    I sure put the ol' KOD on Nick Price!
    
    NAZZ

I knew that Norman wasn't gonna get it done. I wished I'd seen that offer
to trade for Nicklaus.

In any case, here's the top of the leader board:

	David Frost		66 (-6)
	Phil Mickelson		66
	Jose Maria Olazabal	66
	Jack Nicklaus		67
	David Giliford		67
	Corey Pavin		67

and the rested in the pool:
		
	Nick Faldo		70
	Greg Norman		73
	Ernie Els		72
	Nick Price		76
	Ian Woosnan		69
	Davis Love III		69
	Fred Couples		71
	Bernhard Langer		71
	John Daly		75
	Tiger Woods		72

TTom

	When do they make the firsted cut?  Some of the 'front-runners'
	may be out of it then by the looks of things.


	billl

Billllll,

It's after the second round. In the firsted and seconded round, it's
pretty much pairings thrown together by the ruling powers. After that,
it's like the other tournaments where the bestest start lastest.

It'll be a real embarassment to those powers that be if'n the cut is a
negative number. They pride themselves on making the course ridiculously
hard and are quite sensitive about it.

TTom

    How does the Cut work, do the top X make it in or everyone who scores
    below Y makes it ???? They must have to cap the amount of people that
    go into the weekend due to time and TV coverage....
    
    								MaB

 yeah from watching on USA last night one can only imagine how tough it's
 going to be when the greens dry out. They hit balls on the 17th yesterday
 that still hit and rolled 40 good feet away from the pin even with the
 wetness..........

 mike

The way the cut works for the Masters is that they take the top 60, maybe
62 players and anyone else who is within 10 strokes of the leader.

I would expect that they will be "groom" the course to make sure that
yesterday's scores are not repeated.

TTom

	Looking at some of those greens I can't help but think of 
	that hole with the windmill that keeps hilling my ball.


	billl

 I wonder how they set the course up for the members? If I was a member I 
 sure want to play it with the same greens the pros do.......

 mike

> Title:  shoot 120 + everytime
 
	Mike, you say that like it's a bad thing :^(


	billl

re: 120

I try to get my money's worth when I play golf. I figger they charge
everyone the same my $/stroke is just better than most of 'em.

I've never played Augusta but I've played courses that have been used for
the Open and they definitely doctor them for the majors. The most
noteable differences are how close they cut the greens, where they seem
to love putting on pool table type surfaces, and how they cut the rough,
which is usually allowed to grow for the majors until you caint see your
own feet much less the ball.

But with any of these plans, when mother nature rains, they don't always
get the effects they want.

TTom

    I heard somewhere that after the Masters is over, the course is closed
    until the fall.  
    
    Really make ya want to become a member so ya cain't golf there during
    the summer, huh??
    
    JaKe
    

JaKe,

The way it works, if'n you got enough money and power to join, the lasted
thing you're worrying about is where to play golf. ;-)

TTom

Nice win by Crenshaw.  With the week he had, it was the perfect capper.

My man Phil played well, but not well enough.....


'Saw

    I guess I'm just not a 90's kinda guy.  I thought Crenshaw, who looked
    intense golfing, looked like a sap sobbing in his hands after sinking
    the putt on 18.
    
    
    billl

>
>    I guess I'm just not a 90's kinda guy.  I thought Crenshaw, who looked
>    intense golfing, looked like a sap sobbing in his hands after sinking
>    the putt on 18.
>    
    
If I'd buried my teacher, mentor, and best friend the day before the first
round started, I might have shed a few tears after winning it...

    >If I'd buried my teacher, mentor, and best friend the day before the
    >first round started, I might have shed a few tears after winning it...
    
    I didn't know that, but it still looked like a little show for the
    crowd to me.  Regardless, he played the last few holes like a man
    on a mission.
    
    Who was the guy who, after sinking the putt to win the Master, did
    the swan dive into the lake?  That was the balls!
    
    
    billl

    
    	Harvey Penick passed away on Sunday April 2nd. He was buried on
    Wednesday. Ben Crenshaw and Tom Kite were Pallbearers. Harvey Penick
    is the author of "The little red book". The best selling sports
    related book ever.
    
    Ron

        
    re. .276
    
    Wrong tournament regarding someone jumping into the drink after holing
    out and winning the trophy.
    
    		Jerr PateGary @ the TPC in Sawgrass, Fl - 1982?? 
    
    IMO - I dont believe that Ben Crenshaw is a showman in any way, shape, 
    	  or form. I think his emotion shown on # 18 after putting out was
    	  Truely genuine!
    
    THE MASTERS - A great tournament all around!
    
    
    		Ed
    

    Great tourney indeed.  Really like the coverage - minnimal ads (Caddy's
    and Travelers Ins. Co.), lots of shots from all over the field, not
    just finishing putts.  Great weather, but sort of expected scores to be
    higher (Didn't last years winner barely break par for the 4 days?)
    
    UMDan

    Okay, I guess it wasn't the Masters.  Whoever it was, "Jerr PateGary"
    doesn't ring a bell, and wherever it was, it was pretty funny.
    
    
    billl

    The only tourney I've seen live was a Pro Am in Pittsburgh in 1967.
    But why does the camera angle on tv always make it look like the 
    golfer's shot is heading dead right, an extreme slice?  However, 
    the ball mostly ends up right smack dab where they want it to go.
    
    Do they all draw the ball or is it just an optical illusion?
    
    
    billl

    
    re. .280
    
    Sorry about the Name. It was Jerry Pate 1982 TPC. I like that
    kind of spontaneity myself! 
    
    	Ed

>    Do they all draw the ball or is it just an optical illusion?
    
I think it depends on the shot and the golfer.  Some have consumate control
over that.

Some play (as the announcer will tell you sometimes) left-right or righ-left.


The last time I went to the GHO, I saw behind the first hole, and watched
everyone come through (then went home and watched the rest on TV).

The ball comes at you kind of straight, I'd say.  But then, too, those
were the approach iron shots on the par 4.

Cool stuff to watch.....


'Saw

    
    So does anyone have the top 10 leader board.
    
    Marc
    

    Thought it was great that Crenshaw won.  Davis Love III had some mean
    iron shots, though.
    
    RE everything looking like it's started way right
    The camera isn't all that far behind the golfer when he makes his
    shot(maybe 20 feet or so), and they have to use an extremely wide angle
    lens to get everything in, which gives a slight "fisheye" effect. 
    Therefore, with the camera positioned slightly to the right of the
    player, and behind him, it appears like the shot goes way right, when
    in fact, it is going fairly straight.
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schlepps
    
    JaKe
    

    Yeah I figured it was one of dem optical solution thangs.
    
    
    billl

    Now, when you consider yer and my golf games, everything DOES come offa
    the club way to the right.
    
    JaKe
    

    >><<< Note 105.288 by HBAHBA::HAAS "You ate my hiding place." >>>
    
    Great p-name, TTom.  That conjurs up all kinds of thoughts.
    
    
    
    billl

    Ttom, cain't get to ya thru mail, but I'm rollward over that one ya
    just sent me.
    
    JaKe
    

When I heard it I said to myself, no there's one that JaKe needs to hear.

Glad it worked.

TTom

    
    Couple random scores as of 1pm;
    
    Leaders	Price 		-2     on back nine
    		Mirchirson(sp) 	-2     on front nine
    
    	Couples		+6 maybe more
    	Els		+2     back nine
    	Tiger		+2 maybe +3    back nine
    	Watson		+1
    	Maggert		-1   F
        Haas		E or +1   F
    	
    Even par is doing great as only a couple golfers are under par.
    Maggert is the only golfer who has finished under par so far.
    
    Walta
    

>        Haas		E or +1   F

I was distracted and will do better tomorrow...

TTom

	From what I saw, this was a great US Open.  Great shot by Corey on
	the 18th.  They keep showing the great shot, but most of the time they
	don't mention that he missed the birdie putt.  Norman was through when 
	he bogied the 17th.  Bad shot (for him) out of the bunker.  He two
	putted to get the bogie to be two shots back.  He had a good putt on
	18 to save par but it was too late.  That course must be tough.  Also,
	while on vacation I had my best 9 hole score ever.  37 on a par 36.
	The course was short though, only 3000 yards on the front nine but I'll
	take it.

	Kevin

    Any news from Saint Andrews?  Arnold Palmer is out there this year on a
    special invite.  Not having heard any scores I'd say watch out for one
    of those Brits who we don't always hear about, though Colin Montgomerie
    should be well know by now.
    
    I don't see the Americans winning on this course although they've done
    the best job of mastering the new golf technology and making a comeback
    as a group.  Brad Faxon is always worth watching.

At lunch, I heard that Tom Watson was the leader in the clubhouse at 5
under with 2 other guys - never heard of either - were at -5 and
still playing.

TTom

Heard during lunch that Nicklaus had a TEN (ie: 10) on ONE HOLE !

Watson, Daly, Crenshaw, and Mark McNulty are tied at -5.

Jack did fire a 10 on a par 5 and finished with a 78.

Mike

	I saw the 10 for Jack.  Took him 4 (or 5) shots to get out of a bunker.

	Kevin

  The Golden Bear struggling in a trap and ending up shooting a 78 for the day
seems to me to be a lot like Noland Ryan getting shelled in his last game.
People get old and when they get old they don't do what they once could do.

  This is a cause for celebration?

  George

	Not a cause for celebration for me.  Actually, it's kinda sad in a way.
	I imagine it's awful tough to admit that you can't play with the big
	dogs anymore.  The fire is still there but the body isn't willing.

	Kevin

    
     yes it is imo. I never enjoyed watching Jack play. Imo he's always
     been stuck on himself and any misery he suffers out on the links
     is ok by me.....I see nothing wrong with wishing somebody bad during
     a sports endeavour. If I was rooting against him and he was suffering
     a personal crisis that wouldn't be cool. Talk about over playing the
     PC game. jeez...........
    
     mike

    well in the beginning there were two camps, palmer and nicklaus.  Those
    who like the drama of sports, the charge, the human failings and
    successes followed palmer.
    
    Those who like the mechanics or sport and like it reduced to numbers
    and rules liked Nicklaus.  Then one day Arnold couldn't win any more
    and there was only nicklaus.
    
    I've never been much of a nicklaus fan unless he's competing against
    the foreigners.  The I'll root for the U.S. guy even when I kind of
    like the other guy like Woosnam for example.
    
    Speaking of likable guys I was watching Feherty's antics and he is one
    funny guy even for a north irelander.  

    
    and Feherty is probably the nicest guy on the tour according to Dad.
    My Dad works the tourney at Pleasant Valley every year and says that
    he always says hi and tells a story or two. My claims Calcaveccia is
    the biggest jerk on the tour.........
    
    Right on Bill. I'm an Arnie man!!!!!!!!
    
    use to love to watch his weekly golf show......seems like him and
    Gary Player never lost as a team
    
    mike

  Well, I wouldn't call it a personal crisis since everyone gets old, but it's
not like Nicklaus is in his prime. I guess it says something if you have to
wait until an athlete is 53 or what ever he is to finally get your chance to
point and laugh when he has a bad day. 

  As for what he represents, to me he represents excellence. The Golden Bear
dominated his sport like no other competitor during this century. With about 20
major championships he's set a mark that's about as safe as any record in
sport. Second place is somewhere around 7. 

  I think Bobby Jones said it best when he said "the man plays a game with
which I am not familiar.". He was so far ahead of the next best player through
out his career that he was literally in a league of his own. 

  George 

I don't have a hard time with Nicklaus or Palmer.

I think that Jack should stick to the Senior Tour though, except for the
biggies.  He can't be competitive on both tours like, say, Ray Floyd.

Heard a sound bite from Arnie on the FAN at lunch, saying how he was flooded
with 30+ years of memories as he walked up 18 today.  He said all he could
think of was 1960.

Man, that must be SOME feeling.....


'Saw

    
    	Right on George....
    
    Claybone

    Yeh, that '54 chevvy had a beautiful, big back seat and P..., oh boy..
    
    Oh, you mean Arnold and the British open in 1960

    >  As for what he represents, to me he represents excellence. The Golden
    >Beardominated his sport like no other competitor during this century.
    
    ARe you talking about all sports, or golf?  Edwin Moses surely
    dominated his sport more than Nicklaus.
    
    >With about 20major championships he's set a mark that's about as safe
    >as any record insport. 
    
    You'll see someone win 21 majors before you see anyone pitch back to
    back to back no hitters in baseball.
    
    brews

    
     Heck if Norman wasn't such a choke artist he'd be halfway there 
     already. Nicklaus has been a joke on the PGA Tour since he won
     his last Masters in 86. So I only had to wait till 44 years old
     for a laugh.........
    
     mike

RE   <<< Note 105.312 by CNTROL::CHILDS "Watch out Big Brother's watching!" >>>

>     Heck if Norman wasn't such a choke artist he'd be halfway there 
>     already. Nicklaus has been a joke on the PGA Tour since he won
>     his last Masters in 86. So I only had to wait till 44 years old
>     for a laugh.........
    
  I disagree. How many guys over 44 have done better on the PGA tour than Jack
has done since reaching 44? Most guys who used their exemption to keep playing
were not even in contention for the cut much less making the cut and then
putting up a decent score. 

  From the day Jack played his 1st U.S. open as an amateur and gave Arnie a run
for his money at Cherry Hill through the mid '80s no one came close to playing
the same kind of game he played. It seems like something of a cheap shot to
beat up on him now because he had one bad hole at St Andrews. It makes about as
much sense as laughing at Bob Feller pitching in an old timer's game because he
can't bring the heat the way he once did. 

  George 

    >> It makes about as much sense as laughing at Bob Feller pitching in 
    >> an old timer's game because he can't bring the heat the way he once did. 
    
       Jack isn't play9ing in an old timer's game. Though he ought to be,

  So what? They do things different in Golf. 

  Because it is a game where individuals play against the course and the play of
a competitor does not depend all that much on what his opponent does, rather
than having old timer games they have made a provision where by the great names
of the past can just play along with the regular players. 

  It was just recently that Sam Sneed stopped playing every year in the
Masters and tons of great names from the past still do tee it up for major
tournaments. 

  The difference in Jack's case is that he is still able to make the cut from
time to time at an age where most guys are there just to spend 2 days waving to
the crowds without a thought of playing on the weekend. 

  George 

Well regardless, the last day for me was pretty exciting, watching Long John
win it.

The putt that Rocca made was a moment though wasn't it?  He duffs his approach,
and I'm saying, Jeez, just like me.  Then he makes the putt to recover.

But at that point, I thought that Daly had an advantage in the playoff.  He
seemed much more confident....


'Saw

    Well I had to leave just after Daly had bogeyed 16 and 17 and his drive 
    on 18 had him doing one of those Fehety things with his face.
    
    Nicklaus was all over him for using driver but it was putts and
    approach shots that had him in trouble.  I think John's philosophy was
    1.  Go with what brought you here (eg same clubs as previous three
    tries)
    2.	Try to drive past all those pot bunkers which were constructed with
    mere mortals in mind.
    
    And the philosophy of staying aggressive can't be too bad after
    watching a zillion football prevent defenses allow for a zillion
    comebacks.

	wherd da FLOG conference go?!?!

    KEPTIN::GOLF
    
    BTW on the Jack bashing. I never cared for the guy either, I was an
    Arnie fan, but one of Nicklaus' best comments was
    
    "For years people were wishing they could play like me and now they
    can."
    

 
 Masters Invitation List
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 The following players have been invited to compete in the 1996
 Masters Tournament, which will be held April 11th through 14th at
 the Augusta National Golf Club in Augusta, Georgia:
 
 United States Section (basis of qualification in parenthesis):
 
 Tommy Aaron (1)                       Tom Lehman (9,12,13)
 George Archer (1)                     Justin Leonard (10,12,13)
 Woody Austin (12,13)                  Davis Love III (11,13)
 Paul Azinger (4,9)                    Steve Lowery (10,12,13)
 Gay Brewer Jr. (1)                    Jeff Maggert (10,13)
 Mark Brooks (12)                      Buddy Marucci (5-b)
 Brad Bryant (10,12,13)                Billy Mayfair (12,13)
 Jack Burke Jr. (1)                    Mark McCumber (10)
 Mark Calcavecchia (12,13)             Phil Mickelson (9,10,12,13)
 Billy Casper (1)                      Cary Middlecoff (1)
 Charles Coody (1)                     Larry Mize (1)
 Fred Couples (1,9))                   Byron Nelson (1)
 Jerry Courville, Jr. (8)              Jack Nicklaus (1)
 Ben Crenshaw (1,9,13)                 Mark O'Meara (11,12,13)
 John Daly (3,4)                       Arnold Palmer (1)
 Ed Dougherty (12)                     Corey Pavin (2,9,13)
 David Duval (13)                      Kenny Perry (9,13)
 David Edwards (9)                     Henry Picard (1)
 Bob Estes (11)                        Loren Roberts (9,13)
 Brad Faxon (9,11)                     Gene Sarazen (1)
 Ray Floyd (1,9)                       Scott Simpson (13)
 Doug Ford (1)                         Jeff Sluman (10,11)
 Fred Funk (12,13)                     Sam Snead (1)
 Jim Furyk (12)                        Craig Stadler (1,11,12)
 Jim Gallagher, Jr. (12,13)            Payne Stewart (2,12,13)
 Bill Glasson (10)                     Curtis Strange (9)
 Bob Goalby (1)                        Steve Stricker (10)
 Jay Haas (9,10,11,13)                 Hal Sutton (12)
 Brian Henninger (9)                   Kirk Triplett (13)
 Scott Hoch (9,12,13)                  Ted Tryba (12)
 Ben Hogan (1)                         Bob Tway (10,12,13)
 John Huston (9)                       Duffy Waldorf (9,10,12)
 Hale Irwin (9)                        Art Wall Jr. (1)
 Peter Jacobsen (13)                   Tom Watson (1,9)
 Lee Janzen (2,9,10,12,13)             D.A. Weibring (12)
 Herman Keiser (1)                     Chris Wollmann (7)
 Tom Kite (2)                          Tiger Woods (5-a)
 Neal Lancaster (10)                   Fuzzy Zoeller (1)
 
  1 - Masters Tournament Champions (lifetime)
  2 - U.S. Open Champions (honorary, non-competing after five years)
  3 - British Open Champions (honorary, non-competing after five years)
  4 - PGA Champions (honorary, non-competing after five years)
  5 - (a) Current U.S. Amateur Champion
      (b) Runner-up to current U.S. Amateur Champion
  6 - Current British Amateur Champion
  7 - Current U.S. Amateur Public Links Champions
  8 - Current U.S. Mid-Amateur Champion
  9 - Top 24 players, including ties, in the 1995 Masters
 10 - Top 16 players, including ties, in the 1995 U.S. Open
 11 - Top eight players, including ties, in the 1995 PGA Championship
 12 - Winners or PGA Tour co-sponsored tournaments considered
      by the Masters Committee to be "major" events (excluding
      Team Championships), from the conclusion of the 1995
      Masters to the start of the 1996 Masters
 13 - Top 30 from the final 1995 PGA Tour Money List
 
 International Section:
 
 Ian Baker-Finch            Frank Nobilo
 Seve Ballesteros           Greg Norman
 Michael Campbell           Jose Maria Olazabal
 Alexander Cejka            Jumbo Ozaki
 Steve Elkington            Gary Player
 Ernie Els                  Nick Price
 Nick Faldo                 Costantino Rocca
 David Frost                Mark Roe
 David Gilford              Gordon Sherry
 Satoshi Higashi            Vijay Singh
 Bernhard Langer            Sam Torrance
 Sandy Lyle                 Ian Woosnam
 Colin Montgomerie
 
    

>Phil Mickelson (9,10,12,13)


My main main!

Southpaws rule.


'Saw

    To pick one golfer I'd go with Couples who is playing well again after
    physical,marital and mental problems - the latter simply the desire to
    win - held him back.  Norman is so overdue that they named a
    Continental Flight after him.
    
    The field is down to 6-1 even though a name golfer usually wins - Mize
    being a notable exception.  The Golden Bear had a very good weekend on
    the Seniors on a course not doctored for the senior set.
    
    Daly could be an interesting bet, his head seems about as straight as
    it's ever been, not saying much.  His 12 last weekend is four under my
    best at Trull's 15th.

Well my man got off to great start yesterday firing a 65 only to be overshadow
by the Dean Smith of golf Greg Norman who shot a 63. Fortunately for Phil, Greg
will comeback to earth sometime during the next 3 days so all he has to do is
stay consistent. Did anyone see Norman's ball hit a tree on the 16th? A great
second shot but I think someone kicked his ball backout into the fairway. ;^)
They were awfully generous with the pin placements yesterday. Hopefully they'll
make them much tougher today. I really don't think that a major should be won
by someone being double digits under par.

mike_who_can't_wait_to_get_home_for_second_round_coverage

You like Phil too?

Phil ROOLS!

    Mikey:
    
           Your man doesn't have the nads it takes to win a Major.
    
    This tournament belongs to Norman...he's long overdue.
    
    Since I'm hear till 5:00, I'll have to put a bug in Jim's ear
    
    regarding your SCOOTIN'!
    
    
    
    
                                 JS
    

    
    Yabbut,
    
    http://golf.com/tour/major/masters
    
    and I wanna see Tiger Woods (US Am champ) make a run for it but he's 4
    over par.  Anybody got an idea what "making the cut" for the weekend
    will be?
    
    I remain,
    wondering if the rooles on the PGA tour "require" only white balls to
    be used?  Cain they play with Orange/green/yeller?
    
    /kev
    

JJ go back to ron-nin will ya!!!!!!!!

;^)

Phil's going to win it. He was close last year and just missed taking out that
wimp Pavin at the US Open. He's due!!!!!!!!!!!

Us lefties got to stick together Saw. It's bad enough they discriminate against
us when it comes to equipment......

Yo Kev that URL you publish is useless. I couldn't get in. Perhaps it's to
full for anymore users. I've been trying to find one with updates on Alta
Vista but I keep getting deny access........

mike

compliments of: http://www.igolf.com/leaderboard/leaderm.html

 also if you have an "AOL.com" email address try 
 http://www.wrld.net/igolf/tm/tmentry.htm

 there running a contest for a free set of woods and irons by Taylor Made.
 the only restriction is you need an "AOL.COM" e-mail address............ 

Leading second round scores from the 1996 Masters.
Note, first round leaders tee off this afternoon.
As of 2:10 pm et
                                           2 Day
Name           2nd Round/To Par     Thru   Total
=====          ================     ====   ======
Corey Pavin         -6               18      -3
Fred Couples        -4               18      +2
Steve Stricker      -3               18      +5
Jim Furyk           -2               18      +2
Bernhard Langer     -2               18      +1
Tom Lehman          -2               18      +1
Sam Torrance        -1               18      +7
Tom Watson           E               18      +5
Woody Austin        +2               18      +9
David Edwards       +2               18      +9
Ben Crenshaw        +2               18      +7
Neal Lancaster      +2               18      +6
Sandy Lyle          +2               18      +5
Friday Tee Times:
 2:18 -  Brad Faxon 69, Nick Faldo (Britain) 69
 2:27 -  Lee Janzen 68, David Gilford (Britain) 69
 2:36 -  Bob Tway 67, Scott Hoch 67
 2:45 - Greg Norman (Australia) 63, Phil Mickelson 65

Mikey, 

I didn't know you were a southpaw too.

Awright!


Phil's gonna take it.  Norman'll choke like he always does.  I like Greg, but
Phil's my main main!

    
    	The way the Masters determines who makes the cut for the final
    2 rounds is simple, anybody who is within 10 strokes of the leader makes
    the cut. Ex. Fred Couples has already finished round 2 and is +2, the
    leader can't finish above -8, or Fred is out.
    	I personally would like Norman to shoot another 63 and go -18.
    Then have everybody else finish -7 or below. According to the rules,
    Norman would be the winner and wouldn't have to play this weekend.
    If Norman starts off hot, CBS will be sweating. Imagine if he shoots
    a 68 or 69 making him a -13, or -14 after 2 rounds. Only about a dozen
    players will make the cut.
    
    Ron

    You're only half right. There is another part of the rule that says
    something like " ..or the top 44 players, whichever is less".
    
    Chris

    oops- make that whichever is more.

    I think that there may also be a minnimum number that they take to
    the final round.  If Norman goes into a zone, shoots a 60 and ends up
    -20 and no one is -10 or better, he does not win by default.
    
    UMDan (pissed that they now have a ticket lottery for the practice
    rounds, and I haven't gotten to go in two years!)
    

    I don't beleive the 10+ stroke mark is etched in stone. 
    
    I think they can play with that number.
    
    If there aren't enough golfers in the field to make the tournament
    
    interesting, I'm pretty sure they expand the number to 11, 12....etc.
    
    I know they would not declare Norman the winner if he shot 62 today
    
    and nobody was within 10 strokes of him.

    Daly had a nice -3 and the double bogeyed 18.  Vijay Singh, Faldo are
    two f'rrners to be reckoned with.  Faxon is hanging in there.
    
    Norman is the LA Lakers of professional golf.  Nicklaus btw looked
    pretty good yesterday.  I'm betting no one runs away with this thing.
    
    Wind is everything at that course.

	Phil bogied the first two holes, Norman had a bogie and a birdie.

	Kevin

    Biggest choke job in Golf history.
    
    From being six shots ahead, Norman ends up Five shots behind Faldo,
    Masters champion for the third time, in a wretched days golf for the
    Australian. Although Nick is my top boy golfer, I had to feel some
    sympathy for Norman who seems destined to go down in history as a
    bottler of big tourneys.
    
    
    CHARLEY 

	As the final round was progressing, I kept rooting for Faldo because
	I wanted to see a good match.  Towards the middle, I was hoping that
	Norman could somehow hold it together.  9, 10, 11, and 12 really did
	him in.  After that, it was painful to watch if you were rooting for 
	Norman.  I'd love to play that course sometime, although I know it
	would never be possible.  Anyone have information on the Augusta
	National Golf Club?

	Kevin

The word "choke" is horribly overused in this conference, but I'd say it
applies here pretty well.

... I think Norman lost it from the start yesterday, long before the middle
holes. It was clear to me he was not in the same state of mind of the 3 days
before. He was helpless and probably dying inside. It was one of the most
difficult struggles I've ever watched. 

As much as many feel bad for Norman, you have to give Faldo credit ... he
played like a pro. You could tell that he felt bad for Norman as well.

I will say that he was a class act in defeat.

>  <<< Note 105.342 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's Baseball And You're An American" >>>

>I will say that he was a class act in defeat.


	As well as Faldo in victory.

	Kevin

I was hoping Phil would win.

Anybody but Faldo.

    
    	Yes, It was the biggest choke job in Masters history, not in
    golf history. Arnold Palmer blew a 7 shot lead with like 5 holes to
    play in a US Open and lost to Billy Casper.
    	As someone said this weekend, Norman is a millionaire 40 times
    over, yet can't get a $250 green jacket. He just didn't have the
    patience it takes to win the Masters. Only an IDIOT shoots at the
    pin on the 12th hole on Sunday, short right of the pin goes into
    Rae's creek 99% of the time. The only time I've ever seen a ball not
    go in the water, is about 4 years ago when Fred Couples won the
    Masters. 
    
    Ron
    

    >    Yes, It was the biggest choke job in Masters history, not in
    >    golf history. Arnold Palmer blew a 7 shot lead with like 5 holes to
    >    play in a US Open and lost to Billy Casper.
     
    
    I'm not that old;^)
    
    
    CHARLEY  
    

>Only an IDIOT shoots at the pin on the 12th hole on Sunday


I don't think you understand. Norman was not shooting for the 
pin on 12. He pushed that shot ... and pulled the shot on 16. Don't
think that pros don't also make mistakes. He was tight and not
in total control of his swing. 

If it makes you (and others) feel good to dump on him, at
least dump on him for the correct reason ... which is that
he was not able to perform under the pressure and probably
was actually playing too defensive ... and hoping shots would
go well rather than making them go well. 

    Din't Norman have some problems with the Wind Mill on 13. That seems to
    always eat me up too - the ball is going straight for the hole and BAM
    that stupid Wind Mill kicks it back. Oh well.......

    Jim Colbert of the senior tour agrees with .347. He was on ESPN on
    Monday morning and basically said the same thing. That he was very
    surprised Norman was shooting at the pin on every hole even while
    still leading the tournament. He felt if Norman had played a little
    more conservative on certain holes he may have calmed down and still
    won the thing. A think a lot of people would agree that Norman does
    not know how to play any other way but "very aggresive". That's how
    you can shoot a 63 one day and 78 a few days later. You live by the
    sword you die by the sword. If he could have switched the scores 
    around nobody would even remember the 78 but him....................
    I think the point .347 is making is that Norman didn't need to be 
    that agressive with a six shot lead and I agree.
    Norman in my opinion is still the best pro golfer out there today and
    really feel for the guy. 

    The Telegraph (British) put it this way:
    
    
        NICK FALDO, back to his best form of half a dozen years ago, won his
        third Masters title at Augusta National yesterday when, after trailing
        Greg Norman by six strokes overnight, he had a round of 67 to win by
        five shots from Norman, who had a 78.
    
    Not enough credit is given to Faldo who's 67 would have tied Norman if
    Greg had hit  73.  Norman has come from way back before but like
    Palmer 30 years before did not like playing with the big lead.  One
    could point to Mickelesen and Waldorf who both could not take advantage
    of Norman's problems on a course playing very tough.
    

    >    Yes, It was the biggest choke job in Masters history

	  
     In 1956 Jack Burke came from 8 shots back to beat Ken Venturi
     (then an amateur) and in 1978 Gary Player came from 7 shots 
     back. (notice Ken Venturi was awfully quiet and let all the
     others do the talking!!).

     11 shot difference though is what makes this one so painful!!

   
     can he ever win it?!?!?


     Joe

    .352
    
    I agree with this.
    
    To hit a 67, under that sort of pressure, considering the pin
    placements, when your opponents game is going down the can, is awesome golf.
    
    IMHO it was the best round of the tournament. 
    
    
    CHARLEY

    I don't think this was a choke job - a choke to me is a guy who leaves
    a 5' putt short on the 18th green to lose by a stroke.  This was a
    total collapse.  I like to reserve the word choke for those specific
    instances where the shot, swing, pass, or putt means the difference
    between victory and humiliation.
    
    NAZZ

To lead by 6 going in and loose by 5 isn't humilating? Especially when he still
led by 4 with 10 to play. He choked! 

I can see Nazz's point.

Assume you're a WWII fighter pilot.  You get your P51-D shot up over Germany
and you're flying back to England.

According to Nazz:

	A Total Collapse:   Halfway over France the entire plane starts
			    to disintegrate and you have to bail out and
			    get captured.

	A Choke:  	    You nurse it all the way home, but you auger in
			    on landing, keeling jo-self.

I still say he pushed the shot on the short par 3, just like Couples did
when he won. Couples was lucky and Norman wasn't. If you noticed the way that
green is shaped, the right side is farther away than the center or left.
So, if you pick a club for the center (over the trap) and push it, its in
the water. Faldo hit the perfect shot ... and I'd bet almost anything Norman
was aiming at Faldo's ball. They were tied at the time ... there was no
reason for Norman to risk going for the pin.


I don't understand why he tried to hook the ball on 16. A straight shot
at the back middle of the green feeds right down to the pin.

    Exactly, 'Saw!  A choke happens at that one point in time that
    separates winning from losing.  A total collapse (somewhat like the Red
    Sox this year, and in 1978, and in 1972, and in 1990) takes place over
    a series of events in more than one instance, like losing seven in a
    row in baseball, or going bogey, par, bogey, bogey, double bogey in
    golf.
    
    NAZZ

    1986	Buckner bends over but can't bend down
    1978 	Torrez feeds meatball to Buck <> Dent
    1972	Aparicio falls down rounding third and can't get up
    1946	Pesky holds ball, Slaughter keeps on going and going
    
    Gee does Madison avenue use Sox to get advertising ideas?

>    1946	Pesky holds ball, Slaughter keeps on going and going
>    
>    Gee does Madison avenue use Sox to get advertising ideas?

Heard an interview or read an article a whiel back that said it wasn't
Pesky's fault.  


'Saw

> Heard an interview or read an article a whiel back that said it wasn't
> Pesky's fault.  
    
    Revisionist history at its worst.  It wasn't totally Pesky's fault, 
    but he sure as hell didn't come up firing, either.  The film is there,
    for all to see...
    
    glenn
    

    Well Dom DiMaggio had been replaced by Culbertson who was a pretty good
    bridge player but not such a great cf.  Pesky just did what shortstops
    do; he waited until he saw Slaughter on the way home and then threw
    instead of immediately turning and throwing.  He couldn't hear anything
    with the crowd at St Louis.
    
    The play was talked about just like the Buckner play.

    
>    Well Dom DiMaggio had been replaced by Culbertson who was a pretty good
>    bridge player but not such a great cf.  Pesky just did what shortstops
>    do; he waited until he saw Slaughter on the way home and then threw
>    instead of immediately turning and throwing.  He couldn't hear anything
>    with the crowd at St Louis.
    
    All well and good, but I'm thinking, tie game, World Series Game 7, 
    bottom-of-the-9th, double into the gap (not single as has been
    mythologized), the gutsy, confident player comes up firing to home, 
    asking questions later.  There's no downside to making an accurate
    throw home, none whatsoever (advancement to 2nd is meaningless).
    
    glenn
    

    Well it was the last of the 8th and keeping the runner at first
    (Walker?) was critical and the cut off and throw to Pesky did initially
    do that.  It was scored a single and Walker or whoever hit it may have
    advanced on Pesky's late throw home.
    
    I agree with you Glenn except to point out the major league ballplayers
    generally were taught to do certain things and not to do others.  They
    were not to blindly throw [home] without seeing or hearing [of] the
    runner moving.  They are also taught (fe) to never take their eye off
    the ball in the outfield, thus collisions.

>    Well it was the last of the 8th and keeping the runner at first
>    (Walker?) was critical and the cut off and throw to Pesky did initially
>    do that.  It was scored a single and Walker or whoever hit it may have
>    advanced on Pesky's late throw home.
    
    No sir.  Bottom 9th, game over, scored a double.
    
    
    glenn
    

      Golf must be alot like baseball (-)

 here's the prices that JFK's club drew at the auction:

	Irons		$387,500.00
	Woods		$772,500.00
	Putter		 $65,750.00
			-------------
		      $1,225,750.00

	unblievable the prices this auction is getting. If these people want
	to throw their money around I'd be more than happy to take it off their
	hands. My main Rocket Roger was bidding on the Irons because the bag
	came with it but drop out of the bidding at $121,000.00. 

 mike

  Mike, I don't think they would give you their money.

  As the man said, "... your no J.F.K.".

  :*)}
  George

They're having the Paine-Webber Senior PGA event going on here this week. 

Wail, according to the media, the following really  happened.

Dick Rhyan, one of the entrants, hit his firsted tee shot. Then he rubbed 
his eye and noticed that one of his contact lens had popped out. He 
checked around on his shirt, his hand, the ground, etc. all to no avail. 
Figgering he'd lost it, he proceeded to walk to his ball.

He hit his second shot from the fairway. His third shot was a chip onto 
the green.

As he marked his ball and picked it up, he noticed that his contact was 
stuck to the ball. It was a disposable lens but Rhyan put the solution to 
it, washed it off and put it back in and played the remainder of the 
round.

FWIW, a_article about this in the local rag, placed neatly beside the ads 
for the nekkid women was titled, In Close Contact.

TTom

>As he marked his ball and picked it up, he noticed that his contact was 
>stuck to the ball. It was a disposable lens but Rhyan put the solution to 
>it, washed it off and put it back in and played the remainder of the 
>round.



My brother went to Gettysburg for part of his vacation.  He said they had some
cool artifacts in the Visitor's Center.  As he and I both have a fascination
with guns and things ballistic, he told me about a most incredible artifact.

One display is of two minie balls that were found on the battlefield.  Amidst
the thousands and thousands of rounds that were fired in those three days in
July 1863, these two minie balls just happened to collide in mid-air and fuse
together.

For some reason, your story of the prodigal contact lens reminds me of that.
Of ALL the places in the time-space continuum that lens could have been, it was
on the ball.

Now, that makes one wonder:

	o did the lens pop out on the backswing, and land on the ball
	o did the lens pop out on the follow through and connect with the
	  ball that was just starting its trajectory....


Somebody call Robert Stack.

    
    
       Or was it stuck on his pants and when he walked up to address the
    ball on the green did it fall off than?
    
    
    Chap

>    
>       Or was it stuck on his pants and when he walked up to address the
>    ball on the green did it fall off than?
    
    
Good point.

That li'l contact lens figured that that white golf ball was the guy's eye and
it just jumped to what it figured was "home."

    
    
      Its possible.            ITS POSSIBLllleee
    
    
    In my best Deputy Dog Voice

	Good weekend for golf.  Annika Storenstam wins the US Womens Open, 
becoming the 6th woman to win back to back Opens.  Saw her last year at the 
Broadmoor.  And in Ohio, Tom Watson wins for the first time in 9 years, taking 
the Memorial (Jack's tournament).  David Duval goes 5 under in the last 5 
holes, requiring Tom to par the last hole.  He birdies it to win by two.

	Kevin

    Nice to see that the top two finishers at the Women's OPen were two of
    the hottest babes on the LPGA tour!
    
    NAZZ

How can you say it's a good weekend for golf when Tom Watson wins?

A bad weekend of golf is better'n a good week of work...

    what you got agin Watson Brews????
    

He just doesn't have any personality, he's just boring.

brews

  Yeah, not much personality but he's got that great swing he learned from
Byron Nelson. 

  When Watson was at his peak he was one of the best golfers to play the game.
I remember guys doing interviews talking about how he was the only golfer who
not only talked about going for the pin versus going for the middle of the
green but he talked about what side of the pin he was aiming for. 

  He and Jack went head to head in one of the greatest British Open finishes
I've ever seen.

  George

    re: .383
    
  >When Watson was at his peak he was one of the best golfers to play the game.
  >I remember guys doing interviews talking about how he was the only golfer who
  >not only talked about going for the pin versus going for the middle of the
  >green but he talked about what side of the pin he was aiming for. 
    
    Huh?  I assure you that every player on every tour (PGA, LPGA, Nike,
    Senior, etc.) are aiming for a specific portion of the green on every
    single approach shot they make.  Furthermore, they all have the ability
    to consistently hit those spots.  If they couldn't, they wouldn't be on
    tour for long.  What separates the players is the short game, mainly
    putting.  This has been the monkey on Watson's back for a long time.
    
    Dan

RE                     <<< Note 105.384 by LEXSS1::MURPHY >>>

>    Huh?  I assure you that every player on every tour (PGA, LPGA, Nike,
>    Senior, etc.) are aiming for a specific portion of the green on every
>    single approach shot they make.  

  Yes, that's what I said. However in this interview the announcers was saying
that he was surprised that even when Watson went for the pin in a difficult
location he was still concerned with which side of the pin he hit. He said
that other golfers were only concerned with a particular side of the pin
on an easy pin placement.

>                      -< Where do you get these things? >-

  I think it was CBS.

  George

>  I think it was CBS.

Prolly Ben Wright, in between doing tequila shooters and sharing his
thoughts on how women's breasts and sexual preferences are hurting the
game.

TTom

>>  I think it was CBS.
>
> Prolly Ben Wright, in between doing tequila shooters and sharing his
> thoughts on how women's breasts and sexual preferences are hurting the
> game.
    
    What's so bad about tequila shooters?  ;-)
    
    
    glenn
    

>    What's so bad about tequila shooters?  ;-)

Nothing. Same for breasts and sexual preferences.

I like 'em all.

TTom

    Watson's big problem was from 6' in.  The rest of his short game was
    pretty good and he's one of the top fairway players in the history of
    the game.  Unquestionably 50% of the American tour becomes a putting
    contest and with 100 odd of them capable of winning in anyone week a
    Watson can indeed go decades without a significant win.

Continuing fallout from WhiteWaterGolf:

Supposedly Clinton achieved a life long goal and major woody when he shot 
a 79 the other day playing golf helping OJ find the killer.

Or did he.

It turns out, that ol' Bill has been exaggerating a bit again. On the 
18th, he refused to accept a gimme, putted in anyway and missed it, 
taking a 43 for the back nine. He scored a_undisputed front nine 36.

Wail, it turns out, the rules say a gimme may not be refused or withdrawn 
so it looks like he really shot a 78.

In any case, I think D'Amato needs to look into this whole sordid 
episode.

TTom

Why does it bother me that a sitting President has enough time to practice
enough to shoot a 78?

Golfing while President is a time honored tradtion.

Besides, he was playing with a lawyer, a marketing guy, and real estate
guy.

I'm sure that ever thing he talked about with these guys was for the good
of the country...

TTom

    
    
        Maybe he got good before the presidency.

    At least he's not sitting around.  I didn't notice the President out at
    Ponemah Green btw or are you saying he shot "78" (btw Ttom, in golf the
    lower the score the better) at a regulation course.  Hell I'll shoot 78
    at some of these meadows.  I would've done it two weeks ago if I had 5'
    gimmees.
    
    And I think the rule on gimme's is for match play.  Perhaps they were
    playing a match; the lawyers vs the humans.

>    Ponemah Green 

Is that more of the "din't inhale" fiasco?

I thought it was Ponemah Red, like the song...

    No Ponemah is the local par 3 plus one par 4 total for nine of 37 maybe
    38.  Actually it's not that easy since the greens are bunkered pretty
    tight if if most are grass bunkers.  NH is pretty flush with reasonable
    shape (if not price) public courses.

  U.S. OPEN -- FIRST ROUND
    NAME                   SCORE     HOLE

 1. Woody Austin            -3        14
 1. Payne Stewart           -3         F
 3. Michael Campbell        -2        15
 3. Curt Byrum              -2        10
 3. Paul Goydos             -2         9
 3. Lee Janzen              -2         F
 3. Daniel Forsman          -2        13
 8. David Berganio          -1         F
 8. Bob Ford                -1         F

Purse: $2.4 million
Site: Oakland Hills Country Club, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan
Par: 35-35=70
Yards: 6,974
  

	http://www.oaklandhillsusopen96.com

	Kevin

thanks for the pointer.

I noticed that UNISYS is sponsoring the "real-time scoring" and has both
Stewart and Austin in the clubhouse at -3. Tiger Woods is -2 after the
tenth.

        <<< Note 105.399 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>
                             -< a tip o' the hat >-

>thanks for the pointer.

No problem, TTom.  I also noticed that Kirk Triplett is through 18 even up.  I 
always liked that guy (last 4 years at least).

Kevin

Tiger took the pipe and finished at +6.

He did have a couple wicked nice shots when he was hot though.....

    I may have forgotten to mention the Jumbo Ozaki often does well early
    at these opens.  I see Faldo has adopted the Daly 0-iron.  Wetness
    softened greens but must have made the rough difficult.

Tiger got boned!~

He landed on the green with a drain pipe between him and the hole. He
asked for relief, got none, made a bad chip and the wheels came off.

Quadruple bogie, going in the water twice on the same hole...

However, it was said that he won the driving battle against John Daly.
Woods had the longest drive of the day on one of the par 5, hitting it a
whopping 340-350. 

And speaking of Daly, he did his schtick thing with Chris Berman on his 0
iron. Daly and Berman discussed the merits of shovels (lot of loft one
way and negative loft the other), hockey sticks (needs work, can't
control slice) and a two-by-four (perfect, zero loft).

TTom

    Actually, Woods hit a 391 yard drive on one of the holes.  Daly hit a
    350 yard 0-iron on the 10th.  Both were wind aided.  Daly won out on 
    overall average distance, and more importantly, score.
    
    					Steve

	Meanwhile, Greg Norman was 4 under today and is 1 under for the 
tournament.  3 under still leads it.

Kevin

    
    
        I saw him hit an Eagle on the Par 4 16th today at lunch. Real good
    shot!!

Man do I hate golf tournments where both Norman and Nicklaus play you'd think 
they're the only golfers on the course. Fortunately I love to see the best
struggle so I watched yesterday. I wouldn't even wanna think about playing 
that course. They could cut the rough down to 1/4' and I still wouldn't
consider it. I can miss 100 yard wide fairways never mind 24 yards wide....

Quite a finish. Those that choke, choke again.........

mike

Tell da truth, mike.

Here's the leaders coming into the final stretch of the whole ecnhilada
and NBC is showing this crap about Jack Nicklaus. I din't mind spending
some time on Norma since he was actually part of the story but who give a
flip whether Nickaus comes back. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on
the way out!~

Lehman had a nice collapse and it was a good story having Steve Jones
win. Not bad as programmed sports go.

And I guess NBC would say they had a hice double yesterday with the Open
and the NBA finals.

Of course, they ran a distant second/third after the UAW-GM Teamwork
Poconos 500.

TTom

Jones lives in Phoenix.  However, NBC kept screwing up by saying he's from 
Colorado.

Brews

	Yabbut, he is from Colorado.  Yuma, to be exact.  His folks still live
	there.  Went to CU, was on the golf team.  Sounds like he's from 
	Colorado to me.

	Kevin

	

      Where the heck is Yuma, Colorado?  Must be one of them southeast
    melon towns?
    
      Tim

>       <<< Note 105.414 by THEMAX::JACKSON "Set the drag just right!" >>>
>
>      Where the heck is Yuma, Colorado?  Must be one of them southeast
>    melon towns?
>    
>      Tim

	Tim,  it's in Yuma county.
	HTH,
	Kevin

	Northeast part of the state.

      Thanks.
    
      As to Yuma Az, anything south of Phoenix is h#ll, and alot of Phoenix
    is too.
    
      So what was the high today, 110?
    
      Tim

Let me do this slowly.  He used to live in Colorado.  He is now from Phoenix.
When he gets on the plane and goes home, he goes to Phoenix.  

Actually, Arizona is the perfect hometown for a golfer.  When the weather is 
unbearable here, they are on the Tour.  When the Tour is over, they come here 
and play some of the est courses in the world.

brews

Din't Arizona at one time belong to Mexico? 'Nuff said, he's a mexican.

And Johnny Yuma was a rebel, he wandered alone.

I have no idea where Nick Adams is from, though.

TTom

Dang, I guess we're all either Injuns, Brits, Ruskies, or French, depending 
on where we live.  I think this is something for George and Groaner to 
straighten us out on.  

    
    
    Hey Mike go ask Mr. Gadasen (sp) if Pheonix was part a his big
    purchase.

Kenny Gattison played for the Bugs and now works in their front office,
having risen from the ashes in Orlando...

    
    
    
      Didn't think so.  My spelling stinks so sew me.

Congrats to my neighbor, John Adams.  Came in second at the FEDEX/St Judes 
Memphis open. Woulda been first, but John Cook was absolutely awesome all 
week, and won by six strokes, breaking a slew of records along the way.  

Adams finished at -19, not bad, and picked up $145K.  John is in his earlyv 
40's, and has never won on the Tour, despite playing on it for 18 years.  
He's been second a few times, and won about $400K last year.  He wasn't doing 
as well this year, and he had a bout with skin cancer, where he had to lay 
off for 3-4 weeks.  Skin cancer is a bad disease for a pro golfer, especially 
one who likes to fish when he ain't golfing.

brews 

Does his wife wear short shorts like that other neighbor's wife?

Not around me, but she is a looker.  On the otherhand, John is about 6'4 225. 
So I don't get caught looking.  He does NOT look like a golfer.  His kid and 
my daughter are friends.

brews

>Not around me, but she is a looker.  

	She must've heard of the notorious and brutal Bruce May
	charm, and she's avoiding the temptation....


>On the otherhand, John is about 6'4 225. 

	Ouch.


>So I don't get caught looking.  He does NOT look like a golfer.  

	Smart man.

>His kid and 
>my daughter are friends.

	Let's hope his kid is a girl, so that you don't have to go
	over to his house with any "complaints"  8^)

     >   Let's hope his kid is a girl, so that you don't have to go
     >   over to his house with any "complaints"  8^)

That don't make much of a difference these days.

Here's the list of who's in the PGA sorted by wins. The guys with 0s have
played in tour events and not won. Where nothing is listed, they haven't
competed as yet on the tour.

 PLAYER                     RESIDENCE                     WINS
 Jack Nicklaus              Muirfield Village, OH          70
 Tom Watson                 Mission Hills, KS              33
 Lanny Wadkins              Dallas, TX                     21
 Hale Irwin                 Frontenac, MO                  20
 Ben Crenshaw               Austin, TX                     19
 Hubert Green               Birmingham, AL                 19
 Tom Kite                   Austin, TX                     19
 Curtis Strange             Kingsmill, VA                  17
 Greg Norman                Hobe Sound, FL                 16
 Corey Pavin                Orlando, FL                    14
 Nick Price                 Orlando, FL                    14
 Craig Stadler              San Diego, CA                  12
 Fred Couples               Dallas, TX                     12
 Mark O'Meara               Windermere, FL                 12
 Paul Azinger               Bradenton, FL                  11
 Davis Love III             Sea Island, GA                 10
 Fuzzy Zoeller              New Albany, IN                 10
 John Mahaffey              Houston, TX                    10
 Larry Nelson               Marietta, GA                   10
 Mark McCumber              Jacksonville, FL               10
 David Frost                Dallas, TX                      9
 Jay Haas                   Greenville, SC                  9
 Payne Stewart              Orlando, FL                     9
 Hal Sutton                 Shreveport, LA                  8
 John Cook                  Rancho Mirage, CA               8
 Phil Mickelson             Scottsdale, AZ                  8
 Bob Tway                   Edmond, OK                      7
 Gil Morgan                 Edmond, OK                      7
 Lee Janzen                 Orlando, FL                     7
 Mark Calcavecchia          West Palm Beach, FL             7
 Scott Hoch                 Orlando, FL                     7
 Mark Brooks                Fort Worth, TX                  6
 Peter Jacobsen             Portland, OR                    6
 Scott Simpson              Kailua, HI                      6
 Steve Elkington            Sydney, Australia               6
 D.A. Weibring              Plano, TX                       5
 Jim Gallagher, Jr.         Greenwood, MS                   5
 Nick Faldo                 Surrey, England                 5
 Steve Jones                Phoenix, AZ                     5
 Tom Purtzer                Scottsdale, AZ                  5
 Brad Faxon                 Barrington, RI                  4
 Dan Forsman                Provo, UT                       4
 David Edwards              Edmond, OK                      4
 Larry Mize                 Columbus, GA                    4
 Bernhard Langer            Anhausen, Germany               3
 Billy Mayfair              Phoenix, AZ                     3
 Ernie Els                  Johannesburg, S. Africa         3
 Fred Funk                  Ponte Vedra Beach, FL           3
 John Daly                  Orlando, FL                     3
 John Huston                Palm Harbor, FL                 3
 Kenny Perry                Franklin, KY                    3
 Loren Roberts              Memphis, TN                     3
 Mike Hulbert               Orlando, FL                     3
 Tom Lehman                 Scottsdale, AZ                  3
 Vijay Singh                London, England                 3
 Billy Andrade              Bristol, RI                     2
 Ian Woosnam                Oswestry, Wales                 2
 Jim Furyk                  Manheim, PA                     2
 Mark Wiebe                 Denver, CO                      2
 Phil Blackmar              San Diego, CA                   2
 Rocco Mediate              Ponte Vedra Beach, FL           2
 Steve Stricker             Edgerton, WI                    2
 Wayne Grady                Queensland, Australia           2
 Bob Estes                  Graham, TX                      1
 Bob Lohr                   Orlando, FL                     1
 Brad Bryant                Winter Garden, FL               1
 Duffy Waldorf              Valencia, CA                    1
 Grant Waite                Palmerston, New Zealand         1
 Jay Don Blake              St George, UT                   1
 Jeff Maggert               The Woodlands, TX               1
 Jeff Sluman                Chicago, IL                     1
 Jim McGovern               River Edge, NJ                  1
 John Morse                 Casselberry, FL                 1
 Justin Leonard             Dallas, TX                      1
 Paul Goydos                Long Beach, CA                  1
 Paul Stankowski            El Paso, TX                     1
 Russ Cochran               Paducah, KY                     1
 Scott McCarron             Rancho Murietta, CA             1
 Steve Lowery               Orlando, FL                     1
 Ted Tryba                  Orlando, FL                     1
 Tim Herron                 Wayzata, MN                     1
 Willie Wood                Edmond, OK                      1
 Woody Austin               Tampa, FL                       1

 Brandel Chamblee           Scottsdale, AZ                  0
 Chris Tucker               Charlotte, NC                   0
 Colin Montgomerie          Walton-on-Thames, England       0
 Costantino Rocca           Bergamo, Italy                  0
 Craig Parry                Kardinya, Australia             0
 David Duval                Ponte Vedra Beach, FL           0
 David Ogrin                Garden Ridge, TX                0
 Doug Martin                Edgewood, KY                    0
 Emlyn Aubrey               Princeton, LA                   0
 Frank Nobilo               Aucland, New Zealand            0
 Glen Day                   Little Rock, AR                 0
 Greg Kraft                 Clearwater, FL                  0
 Jesper Parnevik            South Palm Beach, FL            0
 Joe Ozaki                  Chiba, Japan                    0
 Joel Edwards               Irving, TX                      0
 John Adams                 Scottsdale, AZ                  0
 Jumbo Ozaki                Chiba, Japan                    0
 Kirk Triplett              Nashville, TN                   0
 Lee Rinker                 Beavercreek, OH                 0
 Lennie Clements            San Diego, CA                   0
 Marco Dawson               Lakeland, FL                    0
 Mark James                 Ilkley, England                 0
 Mark McNulty               Sunningdale, England            0
 Michael Bradley            Valrico, FL                     0
 Michael Campbell           Wellington, New Zealand         0
 Miguel Angel Jimenez       Malaga, Spain                   0
 Mike Brisky                Orlando, FL                     0
 Mike Taylor                Gastonia, NC                    0
 Patrick Burke              Azusa, CA                       0
 Peter Senior               Narangba, Queensland, Australia 0
 Robert Allenby             Melbourne, Australia            0
 Sam Torrance               Wentworth, England              0
 Tommy Nakajima             Narita City, Japan              0
 Tommy Tolles               Flat Rock, NC                   0

 Alexander Cejka
 Bill Israelson
 Bob Boyd
 Bob Ford
 Brian Watts
 Chris Anderson
 Dan Bateman
 Eddie Terasa
 Eric Booker
 George Bowman
 Howard Clark
 Jeffrey Roth
 John Bermel
 John DeForest
 John Nelson
 John Reeves
 Ken Schall
 Lonnie Nielsen
 Michael Caporale
 Mike Burke Jr.
 Per Ulrik Johansson
 Perry Arthur
 Phillip Walton
 Robby Ware
 Ron Philo Jr.
 Satoshi Higashi
 Steve Schneiter
 Stu Ingraham
 Walt Chapman

Wow, clearly shows how good Jack was/is. Does the 70 include seniors
wins?  

I don't think so, I think it's just for the PGA/Tour.

I think Sam Snead still holds the record for tour wins, though. Does
anyone know if'n this is the case?

TTom

From the Web:

PGA Tour sponsored events:

81 - Sam Snead
70 - Jack Nicklaus
63 - Ben Hogan
60 - Arnold Palmer
52 - Byron Nelson
51 - Billy Casper


Nelson won 11 tournaments in a row, and 18 overall in 1945.
The next longest winning streak is 4.

Thanks, Mike.

Jack has been phenomenally successful and along the way pissed a bunch of
people off. A variety of reasons are given, ranging from he was better'n
Arnie to his voice that resembles Aunt Bea to his endearing habit of bad
mouthing the other players under the guise of critical opinion.

Ol' Sammy on the other hand is ever one's  friend.

Arnie, of course, walks on water.

TTom

    Well Slamm'n Sammy got his first job up in West by God.  He was a
    pretty good all around athlete albeit a hot head.  He's somewhat known
    for letting slip a bunch of tournements that he could've won, inlcuding
    a US Open or two which incredibly are not among his 81.  I'd say he
    contended for so many that Mr Bell decreed he'd have to lose a few on
    mistakes just as he won a few via mistakes.
    
    I see lefty Mikkelson is doing pretty well on that right to left
    Valhalla course situated in O' My God (were in) Kentucky.  And finally
    speaking of Kentucky meaning horses, Cigar goes for the record at Del
    Mar Saturday and will surely get Citation's consecutive skein.

ol' Sammy has had a_off-again, on-again relationship with the Greenbrier
in White Sulfur Springs.

While on the tour, he always listed it as his home course. However, he's
been asked to leave more'n once.

TTom

	How about Tiger Woods winning his third US Amateur title?  He's the
	only one to do it.  He's playing in Milwaukee this weekend.  My bet is
	that if he wins it he'll turn pro.

	Good weekend for Phil Mickleson.  Wins the World Series of Golf.  He's
	won over $1.5M this year.

	Laura Davies wins some LPGA tournament.  Nabs an extra $100K from the 
	sponsors by winning this tournament and any other tournament prior to
	this one.

	Someone won the Bay Bank tournament on the senior side.

	Kevin

    Jim Dent, with a birdie on the lasted hole, won the Bank of Boston.
    
    Woods was incredible.  He shoots 75 in the morning, goes five down,
    then shoots 65 in the afternoon to force sudden death.  And the Scott
    kid, only 19 and going to be a sophomore at Florida shot 2-under for
    the afternoon, so he didn't choke at all.  
    
    NAZZ

re: Tiger Woods.

The onliest problem he has about turning pro right now is that he's never
done any good on a tour event. Mickleson, another hot shot amateur, won
on the circuit afore turning pro. Others have as well.

I don't think that Tiger has to win one but he needs to look better'n he
has up to this point.

BTW, ya gotta feel for the guy who lost. He had a 2 shot lead with 3
holes and took the gas pipe, hard.

TTom

    I think Tiger is going to go pro before the tournament coming up.  It
    would make no sense to not take the money.  I don't know about limits
    to sponsor exemptions but most tournaments will be glad to let me in.
    I believe he will have to go to the qualifying school to get his
    "card".  If he failed there then he'd have to take exemptions and hope
    to win a tournament.
    
    Ttom, that Scott didn't choke he lost to eagles and birdies.
    
    And Tiger's old man is keeping a low profile these days, kudos to him.

I'm not trying to be too hard on Scott but it appeared, at least in the
eyes of this noter, that on the lasted three holes of regulation, he got
a little tight. Up to that point he was more than holding his own. Woods
got hot and there went his lead.

TTom

I disagree.  

Scott played some fine golf, and he just plain slugged it out.  Woods was
just a bit better yesterday.

I would have preferred seeing Woods go shake hands with Scott (forget his
last name) before hugging Mommy and Daddy, but hey, these are just kids
here we're talking about....

Also, in this day and age of trash talking and in your face, I was really 
wicked pleased to see Scott remind Woods to replace his ball marker after
it was moved a clubhead off of Scott's line.  Woods had clearly forgotten
and was about ready to play from the wrong position.  That mistake would have
cost the tournament.   That's the kind of sportsmanship I like.


'Saw

> That's the kind of sportsmanship I like.

I noticed and applauded this.

TTom

 They should have played 18 more today. Woods has incredible talent but I don't
 think he has the poise yet for the pros. But if Nike was offering 5 to 10 
 million to go pro I might even wear those things they pass off as shoes...

 mc

>
> They should have played 18 more today. Woods has incredible talent but I don't
> think he has the poise yet for the pros. But if Nike was offering 5 to 10 
> million to go pro I might even wear those things they pass off as shoes...
>


I never used Nike, preferring to run in New Balance for years and years.  For
all those years, my buddy Chris, the marathon runner, tried to get me to
switch to Nike Air whatever.  Never did.

Then one day I needed new running shoes.  A pair of Nike Air Pegasus were
on sale.  Picked them up because the particular store didn't have the model of
New Balance I usually used.  Best damn pair of shoes I've ever run in.

But of course, the thing is "they work for me."  I know people who swear by
Avia, or Asics or Brooks.  I can't wear those without beating the s___ outta
my shins or ankles...  Go figure...


Yesterday was great golf.  Watching my man Phil do his thing, then watching
the country's two best amateur's slugging it out.....


'Saw

    I hate Nike and everything they stand for.  Nike is the worst of
    corporate America.  Make your shoes overseas in sweatshops with workers
    getting 30 cents an hour, and sell them over here for $120 a pair. 
    That's just great - keeps Americans from getting manufacturing jobs,
    and creates a market through their advertising for these overpriced
    shoes to people who can afford them the least - kids.  Nike makes the
    tobacco advertisers seem like amateurs.
    
    I will NEVER, EVER wear a pair of Nike shoes.
    
    NAZZ
    
    BTW, the scumbag president of Nike tailed Tiger every day ofthe
    tournament with his entourage, waving a $25 million offer in his face. 
    Tough money to turn down.

 How's that make you feel Saw???

 ;^)

mc

>
> How's that make you feel Saw???
>
> ;^)
>
>mc


Like I'm going to keep on running in my Nikes.   If my knees and ankles are
sore, I'm not going to give much of a s___ about folks working in overseas
sweatshops.  For my money right now, for my running style, and for my
physiology, Nike's are the best bet.  


Hell, the company WE work for manufactures most of its stuff outside the 
US.  Only problem is, we're not doing well enough for the Capo de tutti Capi
to chase anyone with a check....;^)


8^)

	'Saw, I tried running in all kinds of shoes.  Knees and ankles were
	always sore.  I gave up running and took up bicycling.  Lots more
	fun (for me) and no sore knees or ankles.  Plus you can do it 
	everyday.  I'd run for two days and then have to take off a day or two
	just to let my old bones recuperate.

	Kevin

Well, fortunately for me, I'm not in that particular situation.

For years people have said to me "You should swim" or "You should bike".
Well, I must be some kind of nutcase, cause I like to run, and it works well
for me.  I like being in the pool, but I don't like swimming laps.

However, being a big boy (225+) I do have to be careful not to wear a pair of
shoes too long after the shock absorption is gone out of it.  In New Balance,
if I was running regularly, that was about six months.  I could tell by the
feel when it was going, and retired the shoes to become "wear arounds."

These Nikes have been good so far, and more comfortable.  I have no groaning
in any joints since I've been wearing them, and that's a good thing.

As Fred Dryer incessantly said in that show "Hunter":  works for me.....

	Well, Tiger Woods has turned pro.  Nike has already given him $38M
	to wear their hats and shirts (I guess).  My guess is that Tiger 
	doens't make the weekend.

	Kevin

... some golf company is givin him a potful to use their clubs.

All afore winning nothing on the tour.

    Kevin I'd take you up on that one and add "I bet he wins or is in top 3
    before the end of the year".
    
    He is that good as Billy Andrade said yesterday.  In some of the tour
    stops his length (pure) off the tee will give him more of an advantage
    than in the Masters and Open where Greens skills and accuracy
    respectively are the advantage.

>    ... and add "I bet he wins or is in top 3
>    before the end of the year".

Sounds like some serious p-name wagering material, there.

Can I get in?

	O.K. Bill, I'll take you up on the first offer, though not on the 
	second.  My thinking is that there will be so much pressure on him
	out of the gate that he'll have a hard time adjusting (especially now
	that he's playing for money).  He seems like a kid who has a good head
	on his shoulders so I think he'll adjust pretty quickly, just not in
	the first week.  Also, I think it was mentioned in here, there's a
	hell of a lot of difference between match and medal play.  Tiger's
	got the match play down, let's see how he handles medal.

	Kevin

    Ttom,
    	Kevin is an honorable man and merely bets he won't make the cut.
    
    What's your take.  If you're like Waugaman and Long you'll say "I bet
    you even that he wins the tournament outright".
    
    Even though I think that's exactly what he'll do one of these weeks.

>    Even though I think that's exactly what he'll do one of these weeks.

That's the proposition that I'm interested in.

I believe you put it as win or in top 3 this year.

I hereby honably profer a p-name wager, choosing the he-won't-do-it side
of the assertion.

TTom

    Okay one for this weekend, Tiger makes the cut says me vs Neuzil (he
    don't).  Not a bad bet, Tiger is probably all worn out.
    
    And one for the rest of the calendar year that Tiger gets 1,2,3 in some
    tournement considered on the tour or close enough.  This with Ttom who
    don't no nutt'n 'bout golf, nohow anyways.

>don't no nutt'n 'bout golf, nohow anyways.

Yeah but I can hold my own on the beer drinking and cart careening...

Years ago, a bunch of buddies and I would go out on a golf outing, one day in
the spring, one day in the fall.

We would break almost every rule of golf etiquette and get silly and stuff, all
the while drinking ourselves into oblivion.  After we were out of sight from
the club house, we played as an "eight-some."

Mandatory things that MUST be done at some point during the round:

	o Hockey game on the tee.  Goals were the ladies tee, and the
	  white tee.

	o Simultaneous tee-off, eight men lined up at the white tee.

	o Lay other clubs out on the green to "funnel" the ball into
	  the hole.

	o Beat the living you-know-what out of the carts.

	o Drink at least one beer per hole.
	
The best one EVER though was one year on the 17th hole, my buddy just decides
to drive the cart into the pond.  Just starts back on the fairway, and drives
it as fast as he can into the pond, jumping out at the last second.

We finish the round, and head back to the clubhouse.  My buddy says to the guy
at the counter:  "Had a problem with the cart on 17, so we left it there."
Guy says "What was the problem."  My buddy says "Brakes...."


Needless to say that was in my wild younger days.....


'saw

    
    Just saw an interesting commercial during lunch.  It focuses on Tiger
    Woods and his accomplishments.  Points out that he shot in the 70's
    when he was 5.  Shot in the 60's when he was 8.  Won his first junior
    championship at 15.  Played in the Nilson Open at age 16.  Won his
    first amateur championship at 18.  Played in the Masters at 17.  Only
    person to win 3 amateur championships.  THEN points out that he is
    still not allowed on some course because of his color.
    
    Marc
    

	Well Bill, I was wrong.  Tiger made a respectable showing in the GMO 
and made the cut.  Now, what was the bet?

Kevin

    
    	I believe Tiger finished at -7, with the leaders being at -19. So
    he was 12 shots back and not even in the top 30. He did have a hole
    in one on Sunday.
    
    Ron

 The tv boys were saying 60 million dollars in endorsements over the next
 5 years. Tough to be 20 and set for life............

 the hell with karate my son's taking golf lesson............

 ;^)

 mc

    Kevin,
    	How about "Mel Triplet is my all time sports hero"

	Bill,

	You got it!  Now, I get the Triplet part, but who the hell is Mel 
	Triplet?  Onliest Triplet I know is Kirt (k)?

	Kevin

    Mel was a fullback on the Giants now coached by one of your all time
    favorite people.  You must be rooting something terrible for the
    Giants.
    
    

Wail, thised is about as fast I as ever got off a still running 
bandwagon.

Put me down as officially already tired of Tiger Woods.

Firsted, lest it be left unsaid, this has nothing to do with his 
obviously gifted prowess on the links.

This has ever thing to do with all the hype.

So now, it turns out that ol' Tiger is whining about the Pro-Am. 
Evidently, the cameras bothered him. Too many unruly fans who don't have 
the proper reverance for something or other, I guess.

So like Michael Jordan, I've moved him over to those superstars that I 
endure and otherwise have little or no respect for.

Way too much hype for me, thank you very much.

TTom

  >> This has ever thing to do with all the hype.
    
     We built him up and now we must tear him down. "Hype" to
     me implies that he's overblown. Not this kid. He comes back 
     from 67th place to make a tourney of it on the last day and
     it's hype? I guess tearing down celebrities really has become
     out national pasttime.

    It's not his game that's the hype.  It's his marketing.  It's making
    him the savior of golf (and of Nike, for that matter).  It's the
    raising of Woods to a mythical, god-like status.  And it's him being
    able to do and say whatever he wants without criticism because he is
    Tiger Woods, icon.  His whining about the spectators, who pay
    specifically to see him, is unseemly.  His concentration looked OK to
    me when he birdied all those holes on the back nine Sunday.
    
    NAZZ

pretty much standard fare here.

Tommy/George says: this is what you said.
Tommy/George says: this is what that means.
Tommy/George says: this is why that's wrong.

Of course, usually the sylogism goes sour at or about premise 1.

Hype can be inapropriate without regard to relative merits of talent,
performance, proficiency, etc.

Michael Jordan is arguably the best player ever. Without a doubt he's at
least the best player in the 90s. I'm sick of his hype to. I'm not going
to buy his cologne. I'm not going to see _Space Jam_. And I watch a whole
lot less of him and the Bulls than I would without all his hype.

I am grateful for one thing concerning both Woods and Jordan. At least
Dick Vitale doesn't broadcast golf or NBA.

As for tearing down anyone, I hardly think I'm in the position or power
to do that and that is not my intention. I'm sure that Tiger, like
Jordan, will have a long and prosperous sprots career even though I'm
already sick of hearing about him.

TTom

  Hey, Tommy and I haven't had an LDUC in this particular note for a real long
time. Of course if that's what's needed it could be arranged.

  For the record, anyone know what Tiger actually said and what actually
happened? Seems premature to condemn him without the facts.

  George

    I'm happy for Tiger.  Seems like good people.

  Woods tries to deal with being center of attention
  
   Fans have shown few limits in their quest for information about
   getting closer to Tiger Woods.
   
   One fan last weekend at the Pebble Beach Pro-Am wondered if players
   break for lunch.
   
   The answer is no.
   
   But if fans want to grab a hotdog and a beer while Woods makes the
   turn that's all right. But please don't throw a beer can if he makes a
   hole-in-one.
   
   That happened in Phoenix 10 days ago.
   
   Nor is it nice to take a picture when he's in his backswing, which was
   the case at Pebble Beach.
   
   ''They're learning,'' said Woods of spectators who have flocked to PGA
   Tour events to see golf's latest phenomenon.
   
   ''It's good they're out watching me play, getting to know me. But it's
   as if you went to a basketball game, and you'd never seen one before.
   You wouldn't know what to do.''
   
   In Phoenix an estimated 120,000 spectators came to the third round.
   
   ''They'd had a few (drinks),'' said Woods, 21. ''They made some noise.
   But they never really yelled during my swing.''
   
   Last weekend an estimated 45,000 fans came in each of the final two
   rounds. Paired with actor Kevin Costner, the whole tournament was a
   trying experience for Woods.
   
   ''Kevin Costner was fun to play golf with,'' said Woods, ''but
   unfortunately we brought a lot of people to watch.'' The situation
   eased a bit for the final two rounds at Pebble Beach, but the first
   two rounds at Spyglass and Poppy Hills were noisy and distracting.
   
   Over and over Woods heard the click of a camera while executing his
   swing or trying to putt. Because the Pebble Beach Pro-Am is played
   through Sunday, the tournament is the one event on the PGA Tour in
   which spectators are allowed to bring cameras for each round of play.
   
   ''Tiger is a big name,'' said Mark O'Meara, who beat Woods and David
   Duval by a stroke. ''People don't understand they should wait until
   after a player finishes his shot to take pictures or make noise.''
   
   Woods played the first two rounds 2-under par, but adjusted for the
   weekend to play the last two 17-under.
   
   ''A lot of people want that one shot,'' said Woods. ''Unfortunately,
   it's at my expense. People forget that there are pros playing, trying
   to make a living.''
   
   Woods left Monday for Thailand, where he'll play this week in the
   Asian Classic before going to Australia. His next Tour event is the
   Nissan Open, Feb. 27-March 2 near Los Angeles.
   
   He said Sunday that the health of his father, Earl, who is considering
   heart surgery, would determine if he played the Nissan.
   
   As for returning to the Pebble Beach Pro-Am next year, he said,
   ''We'll see.''
   
   By Jerry Potter, USA TODAY

    And that thoughtful, understated commentary is "whining".
    
    Good grief.  As a golfer he is nothing short of phenomenal.  It's not
    just the talent but his competitiveness.
    
    He also sounded concerned about his crowds affecting the play of other
    golfers.
    
    One thing that makes it so tough is that there is nothing standing in
    the way of talent making it to the tour as my ol' pond hockey buddy
    Allen Doyle so aptly represents - a guy who worked a driving range,
    read books, practiced and practiced and at age 46 got on the tour and
    won.  And these guys can come from any spot on the planet.

OK. Since pro golf is obviously for sissies. I guess I should take back
that whining part. 

80,000 people can stand up, cheer otherwise root loudly while some 19
year old kid attempts a free throw for the national championship.

But the PGA better make sure no one farts while Tiger is in his
backswing.

TTom

    
      TTom, I think you ain't showing the proper reverence
     for the Golden Child and Supreme Savior Of Golf As Viable
     Network Programming. 

    I'll take Tiger Woods over Greg Norman anyday!

    Ttom, golfers seem to overdue it like tennis players on the sound
    business.  Part of the problem is the extreme quiet prior to the shot.
    But Tiger is not different in the slightest in this regard to Hogan,
    Palmer, Nicklaus or even, all readers please bow, Bobby Jones.
    
    Golf is a difficult sport as I've said (watch the other athletes in
    general try to play it) and it took me years to master it, myself.

    
  >> and it took me years to master it, myself.
    
     That subtle Breen humor.

    Have to side with Tiger on this one.  I've been to several tournaments
    and most pros are very tempermental about noise during their backswing. 
    I saw one female professional golfer explode at a professional
    photographer who clicked a picture of her while standing over a putt
    (she wasn't in her backstroke yet).  
    
    Most of these people following Woods are new to golf and don't yet
    understand accepted practice on a course.  I think Woods understands
    this and the fact that this comes with all the hype around him.  He was
    just stating this can be distracting for him and other players.
    
    
    Dan

    
    	Well he shot a 63 and a 64 during the weekend, so it couldn't have
    bothered him that much. I didn't see Thursday and Friday's rounds so
    it might have bothered him a little shooting 70 and 72.
    	I personally liked what he said when he was asked about finishing
    2nd. This is a direct quote, "2nd Sucks, I enter every tournament to
    win."
    
    Ron

Wail, I took this whole matter under advisement lasted night.

I finally got up with ol' Tiger. He tells me that I took him way outta
context and missed the bigger point of it all which is that he's very
intense and might come off badly from time to time.

The clincher was that he personally promised me that he'd never hawk a
cologne. No Jordan, here.

I'm off the Tiger is a whining jerk bandwagon.

TTom

When the Tiger phenomenon was in its infancy several years ago, I was
fascinated.  Young kid setting the world on fire, and he didn't falter as many 
would do.

But lately I too have tired of the hype.

The kid is a marvelous golfer -- no doubt about that.  But what set me off was
the big contract with Nike before he proved himself on the tour.  I had no
doubts that he would do well on the tour, but the big Nike and other hype
rankled me.  

Nicklaus proved himself, and before that Palmer.  

So, I have tired of Tigermania.  Would have preferred to hear him say "No
excuses" when he came in second, but perhaps that is not his style.


Anyway, I still pull for my main main, Phil Mickelson...


'Saw


PS  Golf is abominably hard, but it's probably one of the best sports that you
    can start young and carry with you into advanced old age.

  Lots of guys have put together a few hot seasons. I remember a few years when
it was Lee Traveno and Jack, then there was Johnny Miller and Jack. Then there
was Tom Wiscoff and Jack. Then Raymond Floyd and Jack. Then Tom Watson and
Jack. 

  There were only a few guys like Bobby Jones, Sneed and Hogan, Player and
Palmer, dominated the game for most of there career. Then of course in a league
of his own there was Jack Nicklaus who as Bobby Jones said "plays a game with
which I am not familiar". 

  The test for Tiger now will be to see if he's a flash in the pan or if he
stands the test of time. He needs about 40-50 tour wins and 8-10 majors to
join the list above and another 10 majors after that to top Jack. Who knows,
maybe he'll do it and maybe he won't.

  We'll see,
  George

    Well you're right 'Saw, Tiger is soft.  He dropped out of a pro-am in
    Thailand merely because of food poisoning on top of no sleep for 22
    hours on top of extreme heat and humidity.  Merely going 12 of the 18
    holes after the food poisoning in a meaningless exhibition shows lack
    of grit.
    
    And of course there's his quitting and excuse-making at Pebble Beach.  
    Sure he was distracted and made a mild comeback with the 63 on Saturday but
    thinking his excuses were enough he faltered with a 64 and could have
    tied it if his 270 yard approach on 18 had been closer or if he hadn't
    wimped out on the 30 foot putt for eagle.
    
    He's just a quitter and an excuse maker and never will amount to
    anything on the tour.  Over hyped as a golfer too, I once made a 30
    foot putt, it's not that hard.
    
    Billte

 any lack of respect I had left for Tiger was obliterate earlier this year
 at the Mercedes. For those not familar with the situation, it was a one hole
 shootout on a par 3 for the title, Lehman went first and put his ball in the
 water going for the pin which was tucked in the left hand corner of the green
 near the banking leading to the drink. Naturally the talking heads went on and
 on how Tiger would be 20 feet or so right in the middle of the green, no way
 he flirts with diaster on the left. He proceeds to tuck it 4 feet behind the
 pin and draw it back inside of 18 inches. Toss all the crap you want out about
 no pressure, he's set for life etc but the kid flat out plays every shot as
 if his life depended on it. More heart than any 30 guys out there.

 mike

    
    >> But what set me off was the big contract with Nike before he proved 
    >> himself on the tour.  
    
       I don't get this at all. At all. Nike offers the kid $30 million and 
       he's supposed to turn it down. We may be experiencing the equivalent
       of seeing Babe Ruth as he evolves into a legend and all people can
       do is nitpick him to death. I guess that's life in the 90's. 

agreed Tommy you can't fault NIKE for saving themselves 20 million or so
dollars it would probably cost them today if they just started negotiations.

When Bill Breen made his predictions about the kid I figured he was blowing
smoke. For once anyways Bill was right. Make it twice he was right about
Moltie......

super duper noty darkhorse

RE   <<< Note 105.526 by PECAD8::CHILDS "Steelers get a pants-down spanking" >>>

>Toss all the crap you want out about
> no pressure, he's set for life etc but the kid flat out plays every shot as
> if his life depended on it. More heart than any 30 guys out there.

  Back when Johnny Miller was having his 2-3 year flirt with greatness the
other golfers would say that he could go out and shoot a 64 any day he chose.
He was the one guy who actually played the ball straight instead of playing a
draw or a fade. Then for what ever reason his hot streak ended and he went into
the books as a good player who had a hot streak but not one of the greats of
the game. 

  Lots of guys go for the pin on one hole of one tournament and come up look'en
good. Question is, will there be a day when someone talks about the great round
he had to win his 10th major or his 50th tour win?

  As for records that stand as of today, Jack's around 20 majors, Sam Sneed has
about 86 tour wins and no one has ever won the modern grand slam. As I recall,
Harry Vardon has about 6 British Opens, Jack has about 5 Masters and the record
for U.S. Open and PGA titles may be a bit less. He's got his work cut out for
him if he wants to go down as one of the greats. 

  Go get'em Tiger,
  George

    re: .524
    
    > Lee Traveno 
    > Tom Wiscoff  
    
    What tour did these guys play on?
    
  
    > The test for Tiger now will be to see if he's a flash in the pan or if he
    > stands the test of time. He needs about 40-50 tour wins and 8-10 majors to
    > join the list above and another 10 majors after that to top Jack. Who knows,
    > maybe he'll do it and maybe he won't.
    
    It's statements such as these which show your ignorance of the game.  How 
    many of these players won 3 US Amateurs as Tiger did?  The answer is none. 
    Not all the players mentioned have even met the above criteria for a great 
    player. He has two wins within his first 10 events on tour.  He's
    beaten Davis Love and Tom Lehman in playoffs.  He has consistently
    finished in the top 10.  This guy is the real deal.  The other tour
    players see this and say it.  I'm not surprised you can't see this.
    
    Dan  
    

 I believe Miller got the yipees and can't putt anymore. Hubert Green same
 thing. Another mulitple winner who died an even quicker death was Wayne
 Levi. Sure lots of guys goes for the pin on one hole but he goes on every
 hole period. Under the circumstance though there are very very few who would
 have gone for the pin with their opposision in the water. Lehman and Daly
 are the only other two I can thing of that would. Sure he has a long way to
 go to pass Jack and the others but if he wants to he should be able to because
 more than 90% of the guys out there are there for a good paycheck first a
 win second..........

RE                     <<< Note 105.530 by LEXSS1::MURPHY >>>

>    It's statements such as these which show your ignorance of the game.  How 
>    many of these players won 3 US Amateurs as Tiger did?  The answer is none. 

  What about Bobby Jones? I'm sure lots of other golfers on the tour could
win U.S. and British Amateurs if they qualified. These days those tournaments
are basically college kids and guys who haven't gotten their touring card yet.

>    Not all the players mentioned have even met the above criteria for a great 
>    player. He has two wins within his first 10 events on tour.  He's
>    beaten Davis Love and Tom Lehman in playoffs.  He has consistently
>    finished in the top 10.  This guy is the real deal.  

  Right, and all those other guys I mentioned had hot streaks where they put
up numbers like this over a 2-3 years period. Question is, can he do it for
the long term like Jack, Sam, and the other greats?

  George

I never said Tiger was soft, so Billte, stop putting words in my mouth.

All I said was I objected to the Nike deal when he was still, in my opinion, an
unproven entity vis-a-vis the PGA tour.  Should Woods have turned it down?  No,
why turn down all that money.  

But how many athletes have we seen come out of college and/or amateur ranks
on fire, only to flash out in the pros?


Actually, it's a sign of the times that money is what makes it all run.

    No you didn't and the words weren't singularly directed at you.  There
    is a widespread Tiger thing going on, a negativity thing and my reply
    was a response to that.  My thoughts on Tiger are just my own personal
    observations, opinion and gut feeling just like with Kaspar and
    O'Donnell.  But here I just happen to have a great horse.
    
    But basically that reply was to the Tiger Woods detractors of the world
    at large and just to show no hard feelings I thought maybe you'd take
    it to your editor and have it published.  I'll split royalties.

Bill Breen, you are TOO funny.  8^)


Looked for old Molty recordings the other night in Media Play but no luck.  8^)

    re:<<< Note 105.532 by CLUSTA::MAIEWSKI "Braves, 1914 1957 1995 WS Champs" >>>
    
    
  >What about Bobby Jones? I'm sure lots of other golfers on the tour could
  >win U.S. and British Amateurs if they qualified. These days those tournaments
  >are basically college kids and guys who haven't gotten their touring card yet.
    
   BS.  We're talking three consecutive US Amateurs here.  Do you know why this
   tournament is so difficult to win than other events?  It's because it's
    match play.  That's why the consecutive wins are all that more
    impressive.  I assure you there are not 'lots of golfers on tour' who
    could win three straight.  Your statement demeaning the magnitude of
    this event shows your ignorance on golf.  Ever hear of Jay Sigel?
    
    
    Do you play the game?  Do you follow the tour?  Your statements sound
    as if you look up names and facts in some digest and regurgitate them
    here. 
    
    
    Dan

    
    >> Your statements sound as if you look up names and facts in 
    >> some digest and regurgitate them here. 
    
       That would pretty much explain that wild wild spiel about the 
       Atlanta Braves being as much a Boston team as the Red Sox which
       he backed up with a lot of completely irrelevant facts about
       the Braves' history.

RE                     <<< Note 105.536 by LEXSS1::MURPHY >>>

>   BS.  We're talking three consecutive US Amateurs here.  Do you know why this
>   tournament is so difficult to win than other events?  It's because it's
>    match play.  That's why the consecutive wins are all that more
>    impressive.  

  First of all, I'm not saying that Tiger is not having a hot run. However if
you look at how well U.S. Amateur winners do in the Masters I think you can
see clearly that it's not the event it was back in Bobby Jones day. Most guys
who are hot enough to win the U.S. Amateur are playing well enough to go pick
up their Pro card and start making money. It is quite possible that had someone
like Johnny Miller or Ray Floyd decided to stay an amateur 3 more years they
could have picked up some U.S. Amateur wins.

>    Do you play the game?  Do you follow the tour?  Your statements sound
>    as if you look up names and facts in some digest and regurgitate them
>    here. 
    
  I am not the least impressed by your constant barrage of ad hominem arguments.
Simply stating your opinion followed by claims that your opponent doesn't know
what he is talking about is an extremely week form of argument most often
practiced by someone who's side of the debate is going down in flames.

  If you really feel you are holding up your side of the debate, why not leave
your opinions of me and my knowledge on the subject out of this and stick to
the facts.

  George

RE            <<< Note 105.537 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Bang! Bang! Bang!" >>>

>       That would pretty much explain that wild wild spiel about the 
>       Atlanta Braves being as much a Boston team as the Red Sox which
>       he backed up with a lot of completely irrelevant facts about
>       the Braves' history.

  My claim is that Tiger woods is one of many golfers who are on a 2-3 year
hot streak. Maybe it will turn into a great career like Jack, Arnie, Hogan,
etc, and maybe not. Then again maybe like Johnny Miller or Ray Floyd he will
be a really good golfer but won't rack up the kinds of numbers the really greats
have.

  Help me here, I'm working hard now to see how the Braves and Boston fit into
all of this or how my opinion of what baseball team I like to cheer for will
determine how many major titles Tiger Woods picks up over the next 15 years
or so.

  George

    
    >> It is quite possible that had someone like Johnny Miller or Ray 
    >> Floyd decided to stay an amateur 3 more years they could have 
    >> picked up some U.S. Amateur wins.
    
       This sounds just like the incredibly weak argument that if Wilt had
       been on the Celtics he'd have won as many rings as Russel did. What
       Russell and Tiger did had never been done before and is an accom-
       plishment of such magnitude that it will probably never be done
       again. S lot of things are "quite possible" but few of them are
       likely. It's you that has the weak argument, George. Murph seems to
       know his golf.

someone mentioned he's the real deal...  truer words were never spoken...  the
kid is destined for greatness.

I don't remember when any other young golfer has been under such intense
scrutiny... even Daly wasn't and look what happened to him...  At 21 I think
he's handling the pressure quite well.

he's got a focus and I don't see him losing it...

Fra

  Back in Bobby Jones day, had anyone won three U.S. Amateurs in a row it would
have been an amazing accomplishment. Back then Golf was coming out of the
period where it was still a gentelman's game (read rich man's game). It was
only beginning to be taken over by the pros so a lot of top golfers still
qualified as amateurs. 

  Today that is not the case. The best golfers turn pro which rather thins out
the competition at the U.S. and British Amateurs. That's why they have been
replaced by the Masters and PGA as grand slam events. Just take a look at how
the U.S. Amateur champion normally does at the Masters the following year and
you can see how they don't measure up that well to the guys on the tour. 

  Now I've agreed that Tiger is having a really hot spell so for a golfer who
is capable of dominating the pros for 2 or 3 years to pick up 3 straight U.S.
Amateurs just doesn't seem like all that big a deal. Fine accomplishment, sure,
but does it mean he's a lock to move from the Johnny Miller / Ray Floyd group
of pros who dominate the tour for 2-3 years to the Arnie / Jack group who rack
up 50 tour wins and 10+ major championships? Hard to tell. Maybe, maybe not.

  George

    
    	Tigers mystique started when he was 4 years old and was swinging
    a golf club. Its not that he won 3 U.S. Amateurs in a row, or that he
    won 3 U.S. Junior Amateurs in a row. Its that he won SIX titles in a
    row.
    	As with any sport is is hard to compare athletes from different
    generations. Bobby Jones played golf when golf was not that popular
    in the U.S. in terms of #'s of people playing. Today in Tiger's
    generation there are more people playing, but the equipment is also
    better.
    
    Ron

    
>    As with any sport is is hard to compare athletes from different
>    generations. Bobby Jones played golf when golf was not that popular
>    in the U.S. in terms of #'s of people playing. Today in Tiger's
>    generation there are more people playing, but the equipment is also
>    better.
    
    OTOH, in Jones' day amateur status still implied higher-caliber golf, 
    compared to the norm, as more golfers retained amateur standing well 
    into their careers.  Woods' accomplishments as an amateur are 
    outstanding but when it's all said and done it'll be how he does 
    as a pro that is remembered (and deservedly so).
    
    glenn
    

 Bingo Tommy the comparision to Russell is perfect. I can easily picture
 Tiger fillin the bowl before a round at Augusta while the majority of
 these Yahoos are primming themselves in a mirror or gabbin on a cellular...

Mike,

I thought it was Chief who liked fillin the bowl.

I din't know ol' Bill was into potage as well...

TTom

RE   <<< Note 105.546 by PECAD8::CHILDS "Steelers get a pants-down spanking" >>>

> Bingo Tommy the comparison to Russell is perfect. I can easily picture
> Tiger fillin the bowl before a round at Augusta while the majority of
> these Yahoos are primming themselves in a mirror or gabbin on a cellular...

  No, the comparison is not perfect.

  The topic I've been discussing has to do with whether or not there is enough
evidence today to say that Tiger Woods will be one of the all time greats like
Jack, Arnie, Sneed, or Hogan who racked up major wins throughout their career
or whether he will be one of the guys who ran off a hot streak and dominated
the tour for 2 or 3 years then melted back into the pack being a good but
not great player.

  Comparisons to Russell shed no light on this discussion. There is nothing
you can say one way or another about Russell which will prove conclusively
whether or not Tiger Woods will win 10 or more major tournaments and become
an all time great golfer.

  George

    George,
    
>    Do you play the game?  Do you follow the tour?  Your statements sound
>    as if you look up names and facts in some digest and regurgitate them
>    here. 
    
    
    I did not make ad hominem attacks on you.  I simply asked you two
    questions, then stated my opinion of your writings on golf.  I still
    would like to know the answer to the questions.  Also, do you know who
    Jay Sigel is?  Do you know the inherent difficulties of winning a match
    play tournament vs. a medal play tounament?
    
    Dan    
    

    
      Sound like valid questions to me.

> ... There is nothing you can say ...

Nor is there anything you can say that will prove anything conclusively.

TTom

    >> There is nothing you can say one way or another about Russell 
    >> which will prove conclusively whether or not Tiger Woods will 
    >> win 10 or more major tournaments and become an all time great golfer.
    
       There's nothing anubody can say that will prove conclusively
       blah blah blah. Time will tell. But your statement that x, y or 
       z golfer could have done what Tiger did smacks of the same limp-
       ness as the Wilt could have done what Russell did argument.

    
    
        George what color is the sky in your world??

RE                     <<< Note 105.549 by LEXSS1::MURPHY >>>

>    I did not make ad hominem attacks on you.  I simply asked you two
>    questions, then stated my opinion of your writings on golf.  I still
>    would like to know the answer to the questions.  Also, do you know who
>    Jay Sigel is?  

  These arguments most certainly are ad hominem. Think about it, the topic is
whether Tiger Woods will dominate the tour for 2 or 3 years like Johnny Miller
or Ray Floyd then go back to being a good but not great golfer or whether he
will win 10+ majors, 50+ tour events and establish himself as an all time great
golfers like Arnie, Jack and the others. 

  What possible answer could I give to those questions which would shed any
light on this argument? Those questions and answers only talk about the person
debating, not the topic of the debate itself, hence from a logical point of
view they are considered ad hominem arguments. Arguments that attack the
debater rather than the points put forward by the debater. 

>Do you know the inherent difficulties of winning a match
>    play tournament vs. a medal play tournament?
    
  Again what I know or don't know has no impact on the question of whether Tiger
Woods is going to be an all time great but even so this is irrelevant. If it's
hard for Tiger to win then it's hard for anyone else who is trying to beat him.
Point is, 

  1). He wasn't playing against the best golfers when he won those matches
      because they were pros and ineligible to play.

  2). I've already agreed he's having 2-3 great years, the question is will
      he go on to have a great career spanning a decade or more.

  George

    
    	Tiger is reportedly getting 480K appearance fee for playing in the
    Thai tournament. The tournament itself only has a prize fund of 300K.
    Tigers mom is from Thailand, thus reason Tiger is over there.
    
    Ron

RE            <<< Note 105.552 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Bang! Bang! Bang!" >>>

>       There's nothing anubody can say that will prove conclusively
>       blah blah blah. Time will tell. But your statement that x, y or 
>       z golfer could have done what Tiger did smacks of the same limp-
>       ness as the Wilt could have done what Russell did argument.

  No, here again you don't understand what's being discussed.

  Putting Chamberlain on a different pro team is not the same as talking about
what would happen if a pro golfer were allowed to compete against amateurs in
a U.S. or British Amateur.

  The point here is that just because Tiger Wood proved he could beat amateurs
three times in a row, that does not shed light on whether he will be able to
beat pros in major tournaments 10 or more times over a 15 year period.

  The level of play at the amateur level of golf is not up to the standards
of guys on the PGA tour and hasn't been since early in the century.

  George

Is the role of ref diff'rent in match play than in stroke play?

And I din't know Chamberlain was a golfer. Doesn't surprise from the
athletic ability but it's just one of those time things. He's got his
quota of wimmin per day and all that to deal with...

TTom

    George Humor Us and please just answer the questions. Inquiring minds
    want to know!

  >> what would happen if a pro golfer were allowed to compete 
  >> against amateurs in a U.S. or British Amateur.

     Er, correct me if I'm wrong, Sandy, but if a pro golfer were
     allowed to compete against amateurs, it wouldn't be much of an
     "amateur" tournament. 

  >> The point here is that just because Tiger Wood proved he could 
  >> beat amateurs three times in a row, that does not shed light on 
  >> whether he will be able to beat pros in major tournaments 10 or 
  >> more times over a 15 year period.

     That's pretty much stating the obvious. Again, only time will tell.
     Thus far he has managed to do what no one else has and that's the 
     point.
    
    
    
     BTW - George, do the guy the courtesy of answering his questions.

yes there is imo which may not agree with your opinion (some surprise there).
both men have that internal drive or desire if you prefer to win every 
game they play every tournment they enter. That's the comparision I'm talking
about. 

TTom, Russ was know to puke before the big games. That's the bowl I be talking
about but I think you already knew that and was making a hahaha

mike

    
    As Snead and even Palmer would readily admit, winning today is not like
    winning in the 40s, 50s and 60s.  Then they had less than 20 real
    contenders in any tournament.  Today any of 200 can win and a Faldo or
    Norman would tell you that contending (the latter can't comment on
    winning a Master) for a Master is easier than Greensboro the following
    week with the Furyks and Duvals and even Allen Doyles.
    
    Somebody made an excellent point about the technology and equipment. 
    Special teaching pros are another factor.  Greatness can probably be
    gauged today by number of Ryder Cups qualified for, two or three majors
    and 10 or more tournament wins.
    
    Tiger is one of the first true exceptions to come along since Watson in
    the 70s and that includes Norman,Faldo,Couples and 8-10 other
    outstanding, historical world class golfers who cannot dominate.  Tiger
    himself is pretty humble about the challenge ahead of him.
    
    

    
    Interesting comments coming from Ken Venturi on Sunday during the ATT.
    HE mentioned that in his day during the 50's and 60's the loft of his 5
    iron matches the loft of todays 7 iron (plus or minus 2 degress). It
    sure is an indication of how drastically the equipment has changed over
    the last few decades.
    
    				- Ed 

    -Tiger has won six consecutive USGA National Championships for his
    age/status. No other golfer in history has ever come close to that
    whether professional or amateur.
    
    -As a 14 year old, he beat 16 year olds at the national level. That is
    an incredible accomplishment in any sport.
    
    -He earned $1m in his first nine tournaments. The next fastest was 27.
    
    -He won 3 of his first nine tournaments as a pro. Only one other golfer
    has done that. Snead - I think - won 3 of his first 8.
    
    -At the age of 20, he has accomplished far more than any other 20 year
    old golfer in history.
    
    If he gets run over by a banana truck tomorrow, he will still go down
    in history as one of the greatest golfers ever. 
    
    Chris 

RE            <<< Note 105.559 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Bang! Bang! Bang!" >>>

>     Er, correct me if I'm wrong, Sandy, but if a pro golfer were
>     allowed to compete against amateurs, it wouldn't be much of an
>     "amateur" tournament. 

  Exactly my point. So arguing that Tiger Woods' 3 U.S. Amateur wins shows
that he will dominate the pro tour over the next decade or so instead of
dominating for 2-3 years doesn't make much sense.

>     That's pretty much stating the obvious. Again, only time will tell.

  Also my point. That's why I'm so surprised that when I entered a note with
that as my major point, someone said my comment was an example of how little I
understood the game. 

>     Thus far he has managed to do what no one else has and that's the 
>     point.

  That's a point although I believe that if you look at Jack's amateur record
it would stack up pretty well against Tiger's. The U.S. Amateurs looked pretty
good, how did he fair in the British Amateur?
    
>    BTW - George, do the guy the courtesy of answering his questions.

  Once I'm clear that he understands that they have nothing to do with this
debate I'll be happy to answer his questions.

  George

    George,
    
    Let's try this again.  There was a discussion going on about Tiger
    Woods merits.  You made statements about Woods, the US Amateur, and
    the measurement of golf greatness which I found less than insightful. 
    This showed me a lack of feel and knowledge of the game on your part. 
    I was asking these questions to determine your qualifications for
    making golf commentary.
    
    Simple as that.
     
    Dan

RE                      <<< Note 105.563 by NIOSS1::REEVE >>>

>    If he gets run over by a banana truck tomorrow, he will still go down
>    in history as one of the greatest golfers ever. 
    
  I doubt it. When you look at Sam Sneeds 86 tour championships, Jack's 20 or
so Majors those are amazing accomplishments. 

  Lots of kids rack up great numbers against amateurs as they are working their
way up to the pros and some even have a quick start. No doubt seeing that
increases the probability they will go on to have a great pro career but some
just never make that final step. 

  As I said, Jack has about 20 majors and the other top guys in the game are
around 8-10 each. I'd like to see how he does over the next decade going head
to head with the pros every day before I decide he's one of the greatest ever.

  Also, what's the story with the British Amateur? Did he play there or not?

  Didn't Jack win both the U.S. and British Amateurs and take Arnie to a
playoff round in the U.S. Open before turning pro? If so, then he's got some
accomplishments as an amateur that no one's mentioned for Tiger. 

  George

RE                     <<< Note 105.565 by LEXSS1::MURPHY >>>
>                         -< What makes you an expert? >-

  None of us are experts. This is an employee interest file in which fans and
those interested in sport participate.

>    Let's try this again.  There was a discussion going on about Tiger
>    Woods merits.  You made statements about Woods, the US Amateur, and
>    the measurement of golf greatness which I found less than insightful. 
>    This showed me a lack of feel and knowledge of the game on your part. 
>    I was asking these questions to determine your qualifications for
>    making golf commentary.

  And this is practically a text book definition of ad hominem argument. Ad
hominem argument says that "you are wrong because you are not qualified to
debate this issue" rather than pointing out the flaws themselves in an argument.

  What difference does it make what my qualifications may be? If I am as
unknowledgable as you say I am then all you have to do is present your
arguments and let them stand against mine instead of making claims that I am
wrong because I'm not qualified to debate. 

  If you have some evidence that I am wrong and Tiger Woods' 3 U.S. Amateurs
mean there is no chance he will fail to win 10+ majors and dominate the pro
tour for the next decade then go ahead and make your case. Stop worrying about
me and stick to the issue.

  Simple as that.
     
  George

    >> Tiger Woods' 3 U.S. Amateurs mean there is no chance he will 
    >> fail to win 10+ majors and dominate the pro tour for the next 
    >> decade then go ahead and make your case.
    
       Can you point to where someone said anything remotely resembling
       the above? You can't because no one did. You're basing your long
       rambling argument on nothing.

See also: CRD vs MLK day debate.

re:CLUSTA::MAIEWSKI

>  Exactly my point. So arguing that Tiger Woods' 3 U.S. Amateur wins shows
>that he will dominate the pro tour over the next decade or so instead of
>dominating for 2-3 years doesn't make much sense.

if you cannot see the potential of this young man, and are basing all your
conclusions on his amateur accomplisments only, then you have no foresight.
Just the fact that he's been in the hunt at every pro event this year speaks 
volumes for his potential... to say that he's just a flash in the pan and will
probably be no better than a johnny miller 2-3 year player is ludicrous.

This kid has breathed some life into golf...  I'll Venture to say that unless 
he gets hit by a bus, he'll probably be the greatist to play the game.

Even the pros are saying they've never seen anything like him.

Fra

RE            <<< Note 105.568 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Bang! Bang! Bang!" >>>

>       Can you point to where someone said anything remotely resembling
>       the above? You can't because no one did. 

  In my note that's about what I said. Murf pointed to my note and said it
showed that I lacked insight into the game.

>You're basing your long
>       rambling argument on nothing.

  Tommy, you got away with that for a while but if you will notice people are
on to you. When you and others match me note for note it is not my long
rambling argument, it is our long rambling argument.

  Be a man and own up to your contribution to our LDUCs.

  George

    

    George,
    
>  If you have some evidence that I am wrong and Tiger Woods' 3 U.S. Amateurs
>mean there is no chance he will fail to win 10+ majors and dominate the pro
>tour for the next decade then go ahead and make your case. Stop worrying about
>me and stick to the issue.
    
    This may be your issue, but it is not the one I am debating.  You made
    statements which demeaned Woods 3 consecutive Amateur wins and the US 
    Amateur tournament.  You also stated what your measurement of golf
    greatness is.  I found them all to be uninformed.  This raised a
    question with me about whether you had a true feel for the game.  It
    sounded to me as if you were regurgitating information.  
    
    I asked you questions about whether you played, you followed the tour,
    if you knew who Jay Sigel was, and about match play vs. medal play.  If
    you answered them I (and others) could make a determination about your
    true knowledge and feel for the game.
    
    Dan

RE   <<< Note 105.570 by ALASKA::LAFOSSE "WHEN THE BULLET HITS THE BONE..." >>>

>if you cannot see the potential of this young man, and are basing all your
>conclusions on his amateur accomplisments only, then you have no foresight.

  Show me an note where I ever said Tiger Wood has no potential.

>This kid has breathed some life into golf...  I'll Venture to say that unless 
>he gets hit by a bus, he'll probably be the greatest to play the game.

  That's exactly what they said about Johnny Miller when he broke the record
at the U.S. Open back around '72. Of course they also said it about Jack
when he almost took away Arnie's only U.S. Open win at Cherry Hill and that
time they were right.

  Hey, I hope he does live up to the potential and walks away with 25 majors
over the next 2 decades. All I'm saying is that thus far it's only potential.
It's not time to vote him into the hall of fame yet.

  George

  >> In my note that's about what I said. Murf pointed to my note 
  >> and said it showed that I lacked insight into the game.

     I think Murph was being kind. What your note showed wasn't
     lack of insight but out and out ignorance. Tiger has been
     in the national spotlight since he was three, won the national
     juniors three years straight, the national amateur three years
     straight and has had the greatest career start of any pro ever
     and you say time will tell if he's just a "flash in the pan".
     A "flash in the pan" those were your words. Get a grip.

  >> When you and others match me note for note it is not my long
  >> rambling argument, it is our long rambling argument.

     George, count lines and notes and I ain't even close to you.
     No one is.

    The British Amateur hasn't been a factor since Jones time.  Granted
    there surely are some talented British Amateurs but the overall volume
    of talent would make not only the U.S. Amateur but several regional
    amateurs more significant.
    
    Jack did play in the Walker Cup on the winning side in a very
    competitive series of matches.  This is 8-10 top amateurs of England
    and the U.S. in match play.
    
    Don't forget the ncaa championship, a very tough tournament to win
    which a lot of top pros have never won.
    
    And Murph, although Sigel went from top Amateur play including several
    championships directly to the Seniors as one of the top golfers, Allen
    Doyle, a Walker Cupper, final four of Amateur but never a winner went
    to the regular pro tour, has won and been reasonably successful.

RE            <<< Note 105.574 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Bang! Bang! Bang!" >>>

>Tiger has been
>     in the national spotlight since he was three, won the national
>     juniors three years straight, the national amateur three years
>     straight and has had the greatest career start of any pro ever
>     and you say time will tell if he's just a "flash in the pan".

  Go look at the records of most athletes who make it to the world class
amateur or pro level and you will see athletes who dominated their sport
from an early age. As I'm sure you know most guys sitting on the bench on
the larger college teams were probably starters in highschool and stars in
junior high.

>     George, count lines and notes and I ain't even close to you.
>     No one is.

  Count insults Tommy and I'm sure you would blow everyone off the map.

  George

RE                     <<< Note 105.572 by LEXSS1::MURPHY >>>

>    I asked you questions about whether you played, you followed the tour,
>    if you knew who Jay Sigel was, and about match play vs. medal play.  If
>    you answered them I (and others) could make a determination about your
>    true knowledge and feel for the game.
    
  For the record I played a fair amount of Golf during the 70's and 80's. In
the early 70's I'd play on weekends and after school. In the mid 70's I played
in the Mass. Mutual Golf league. On one occasion I won my division. It was a
B flight where we shot around 100-110. During the late 70's I played in the DEC
Golf League in New Hampshire. One year my partner and I came in 2nd in the A
flight. I was still a B flight golfer but he was an A flight so we had to play
that division. I was notorious for "using my strokes" to win holes. In the mid
80's I played as an alternate in the DEC league at Stow. 

  During that time I watched Golf a lot on TV and subscribed to Golf Digest.
In the late 80's I slowed down and in the 90's I pretty much stopped playing
and watching golf on TV. I started moonlighting teaching Computer Science
classes at B.U. and moved into Boston which made it hard to get to the course
nights and evenings. Then with TBS and ESPN I started watching a lot more
baseball and had a lot less time to watch Golf.

  I don't know who Jay Sigel is but I do know the difference between match
play and medal play. In general I find it easier for a B flighter to play match
play since you can use your strokes and you can forget about that occasional
hole where you really blow up. All my league play including the trophy I won
at Mass Mutual was match play.

>    This may be your issue, but it is not the one I am debating.  You made
>    statements which demeaned Woods 3 consecutive Amateur wins and the US 
>    Amateur tournament.  

  I don't think it's demeaning to point out that most of the great golfers are
not eligible to play in the U.S. Amateur or that it's no longer considered a
grand slam event. I understand that it's still the highest level of amateur
play and some of the kids with greatest potential participate. Many of those
kids turn out to be good enough to take the final step and play on the tour
against the guys who really are the greatest players in the game. 

>You also stated what your measurement of golf
>    greatness is.  I found them all to be uninformed.  This raised a
>    question with me about whether you had a true feel for the game.  It
>    sounded to me as if you were regurgitating information.  

  I don't believe that I am the only person who feels that those golfers
who dominated the game throughout their career winning 10+ majors and 50+
tournaments are the great players of the game. Golf Digest often prints
those tables and their writers point to being on those lists as great
accomplishments.
    
  George

    >Lots of kids rack up great numbers against amateurs
    
    I wonder how many "lots" is?  Okay George, name *5*.  Surely you can do
    it, right.
    
    marc
    

re: Show me an note where I ever said Tiger Wood has no potential.

I never said that you did...  I made an observation based on several notes that
you had written where you don't give him the credit he deserves. 

> My claim is that Tiger woods is one of many golfers who are on a 2-3 year
hot streak.

>he will be a really good golfer but won't rack up the kinds of numbers the
really greats have.

>Most guys who are hot enough to win the U.S. Amateur are playing well enough to
go pick up their Pro card and start making money.

>I'd like to see how he does over the next decade going head
to head with the pros every day before I decide he's one of the greatest ever.

a shoe salesman from siberia can make that kind of observation after seeing the
kid tearing up the circuit for 10 years...

This kid is coming into the pro's in a class by himself, past or present.
with the caliber of players in todays game he's in with the cream of the crop.
period...

RE     <<< Note 105.579 by CSC32::MACGREGOR "Colorado: the TRUE mid-west" >>>

>    I wonder how many "lots" is?  Okay George, name *5*.  Surely you can do
>    it, right.
    
  Well, when Roger Clemens was in school he did really well. Dominated College
baseball down in Texas winning a championship. Same with Calvin S. There's two.

  Willie Mays once said that when he was in highschool he was a star at
everything, baseball, football, basketball. There's three.

  Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were both stars in College. What do you bet they
were stars in highschool as well. There's 5.

  In fact I bet if you look at the school records of just about every pro
athlete or world class amateur you will see someone who did really well in
sports. Most likely they were considered a star in highschool and most in
college as well.

  George

RE   <<< Note 105.580 by ALASKA::LAFOSSE "WHEN THE BULLET HITS THE BONE..." >>>

>> My claim is that Tiger woods is one of many golfers who are on a 2-3 year
>hot streak.

  ... which he is. This does not preclude him from extending it and having
a great career but it doesn't guarantee he will have a great career either.
Maybe he's Jack, maybe he's Johnny Miller.

>he will be a really good golfer but won't rack up the kinds of numbers the
really greats have.

  You took this out of context, put back the rest of the sentence.

>>Most guys who are hot enough to win the U.S. Amateur are playing well enough to
>go pick up their Pro card and start making money.

  This is true and more often than not this happens.

>>I'd like to see how he does over the next decade going head
>to head with the pros every day before I decide he's one of the greatest ever.

  This will tell the tale. Maybe he'll make it and maybe he won't.

>This kid is coming into the pro's in a class by himself, past or present.
>with the caliber of players in todays game he's in with the cream of the crop.
>period...

  He dominated the kids in grade school, he dominated at the college and
amateur level, and he's off to a hot start in the pros. Now there's a story
we've never heard before.

  Fact is this is nothing new. Some of those guys make it and some don't.

  George

    
    In case you forgot George, this is the Golf Topic.  Magic, Bird, etc.
    did not play golf in the amatuer ranks.  Not only that, but it is YOUR
    argument that I'm using against you (remember Wilt and Russell).
    
    The challenge remains:  Name 5 kids in the amateur ranks that have done
    what Tiger has done.
    
    Marc
    

RE     <<< Note 105.583 by CSC32::MACGREGOR "Colorado: the TRUE mid-west" >>>

>    In case you forgot George, this is the Golf Topic.  Magic, Bird, etc.
>    did not play golf in the amatuer ranks.  Not only that, but it is YOUR
>    argument that I'm using against you (remember Wilt and Russell).

  Wilt and Russell were part of Tommy's argument.
    
>    The challenge remains:  Name 5 kids in the amateur ranks that have done
>    what Tiger has done.
    
  No one has done what Tiger has done at the amateur level however that alone
does not prove that he will turn out to be one of the all time great golfers.
Maybe he will continue over the next decade and end up winning 10+ majors,
50+ tourneys and join the ranks of Arnie, Jack, and Bobby Jones. 

  Then again, maybe like so many other athletes that were stars as kids and
had some good luck their 1st year or so he will fade back into the pack and
have a good but not great career.

  He certainly has the potential to be one of the greats and I hope he makes
it, but he's got to show he can play consistently against the best in the
game before I'm ready to say he's gone from the Johnny Miller / Ray Floyd
level of really good player to the Jack and Arnie level of all time great.

  George

Uh, the fact that you're using Bird, Magic, Clemens, and Mays as 
examples certainly helps your case doesn't it. Those guys never 
,aside from a couple "hot" decades, did a damn thing in the pros. 

Keep it, you're on a roll.

daryll

You guys are truly killing me.  I mean it.  I'm ROTFL here....

RE        <<< Note 105.585 by SALEM::DODA "Apparently a true story...." >>>

>Uh, the fact that you're using Bird, Magic, Clemens, and Mays as 
>examples certainly helps your case doesn't it. Those guys never 
>,aside from a couple "hot" decades, did a damn thing in the pros. 

  Ok, good point. So how about Doug Flutie, Greg Phalen, and the other four
guys that played for Michigan State in the NCAA final game with Magic Johnson?

  Those are guys who no doubt were stars in highschool and were stars in
College as well but never made much of a splash in the top levels of pro
sport.

  George

RE            <<< Note 105.586 by CAM::WAY "and keep me steadfast" >>>

>You guys are truly killing me.  I mean it.  I'm ROTFL here....

  And this is the main reason we do all this, out of respect, admiration, and
<choke> <choke> appreciation for our leader, our moderator, our <choke> <choke> 
hero.

  <choke> <choke> WE LOVE YOU MAN!!!!! <choke> <choke> <choke> 

  George

Which reminds me.....


Chances are high, in fact approaching a certainty, that this office (well, our
group's presence in Rocky Hill) is going to end in mid-April.

That being the case, these systems will be moved up to ZKO -- so expect that
there will be some downtime at that time, or slightly before that time....


'Saw

  So are you come'n up to ZKO 'Saw?

  Long drive from Conn.

  George

re:

>  He dominated the kids in grade school, he dominated at the college and
>amateur level, and he's off to a hot start in the pros. Now there's a story
>we've never heard before.
>
>  Fact is this is nothing new.

you make this statement,  then in your next reply contradict yourself.

re:

>  No one has done what Tiger has done at the amateur level...

The kid is top notch. period.

Fra

It's Heisman George. Heisman.

were not talking about other sports, were talking golf.

and yes, it certainly was a contradiction.  in one breath you elude that the kid
is merely average, and that his accomplishments are nothing new.  then say no
one has done what tiger has at the amateur level...  if thats not a
contradiction, I don't know what is...

Fra

George,  where'd your reply go??? hmmmm

Fra

  Geeze, hang on a bit. I'm working on it.

  Here we go ...

  That is not a contradiction. While no one has won the exact pattern of
golf tournaments that Tiger has won, there have been many athletes who have
dominated their sports as they were coming up through the school and amateur
levels.

  Some went on to prove they were the best of the best, others became regular
players at the pro level, some struggled at the pro level, some washed out.
Doug Flutie won the Heisman but really struggled in the NFL before finding
a place to play in Canada. Then who was the quarterback, John Huert(?) who won
the Heisman and and signed with the Jets the same year as Joe Willie? He
never made it at the pro level either.

  I'm really surprised that I'm getting such an argument about this. Lots of
guys

  - really excel at the top amateur levels below the pros but stumble or
    actually fall trying to take the next step to the pros.
  - Others make that step then fail to make the next step to all-star.
  - Other's make that step but fail to make the next step career all-star.
  - And of course a few actually make that final step to the hall of fame
    by being a dominant player for their entire career.

  Am I really the only guy who believes this? 

  George

I liked it better the first time. Hinesman has a ring to it.

RE   <<< Note 105.593 by ALASKA::LAFOSSE "WHEN THE BULLET HITS THE BONE..." >>>

>and yes, it certainly was a contradiction.  in one breath you elude that the kid
>is merely average, and that his accomplishments are nothing new.  then say no
>one has done what tiger has at the amateur level...  if thats not a
>contradiction, I don't know what is...

  No, I never said the kid was average. World class amateur stars are not
by any means average. What I'm saying is that just because you make the
world class amateur level that does not mean you are a lock to make the
steps to pro, all-star, hall of famer.

  Maybe you will make all of them, maybe some of them, maybe none of them.

  George

lets forget about the amateur level stuff for now...  he's won 2 or 3
tournaments (sorry, I can't keep track anymore, and been in the top ten in every
one he's played since going pro...  is this the sort of thing that sounds like
average to you coming from a 21 year old pro??

and yes it was a contradiction...

> Now there's a story we've never heard before.   Fact is this is nothing new.

then 

> No one has done what Tiger has done at the amateur level...


the defense rests your honor...

Fra

RE   <<< Note 105.598 by ALASKA::LAFOSSE "WHEN THE BULLET HITS THE BONE..." >>>

>lets forget about the amateur level stuff for now...  he's won 2 or 3
>tournaments (sorry, I can't keep track anymore, and been in the top ten in every
>one he's played since going pro...  is this the sort of thing that sounds like
>average to you coming from a 21 year old pro??

  I can see where you are having problems. When you read my notes you see what
you want to see, not what's actually there. Show me any place where I said
that Tiger was "average". And please, don't cut a few words out of the middle
of one of my sentences and quote it out of context like you did below. In fact
I specifically spelled out in the last note that I did NOT feel that World
Class amateurs were "average". 

> Now there's a story we've never heard before.   Fact is this is nothing new.
 and 
> No one has done what Tiger has done at the amateur level...

  You have put so little context in this that who can tell what you think it
means. What story? What is nothing new? Without knowing that, how do you know
if it contradicts anything?

  If you go back and read the rest of what I actually wrote you will notice
that the "story" I was referring to was athletes who excelled at the amateur
level then failed to become hall of fame pros. 

  For an example of that, look at what people are saying about Roger Clemens.
Lots of people in this file agree that he was dominant in College, agree that
he was not only an all-star but perhaps the best all-star in baseball for 4-5
years but they claim that because he didn't keep that up throughout his career
he's not a hall of fame player. They say he has more to prove.

  All I'm saying is that might happen to Tiger and it might not. What I am
hearing is no, because of his amateur record he's a lock to be an all time
great. He can't tail off after 4-5 years like Clemens and become a really good
but not great player.

  George

George,

you'll notice that I did cut out the whole paragraph the first time, and with
each new note I kept shortening it... call me lazy.

Lets try this one more time...

>  He dominated the kids in grade school, he dominated at the college and
>amateur level, and he's off to a hot start in the pros. Now there's a story
>we've never heard before.
>
>  Fact is this is nothing new.

then in another note you say:

>  No one has done what Tiger has done at the amateur level however that alone
>  does not prove that he will turn out to be one of the all time great golfers.

While you never said he was average, you did elude that he was just another 
amateur like everyone else, and that this was nothing new...  Fact is, your
wrong.  It is something new!  You yourself even said that no one has done what
he has at the amateur level.  I may be wrong here but i'm willing to bet that
no-one has come on the pro circuit in the past and done as well either...  

Ya, your right... he may never be the greatist player to play the game, but He
has the most potential of anyone before him to accomplish just that.

He's no flash in the pan, and certainly not a Johnny Miller.  Let's stick to
Golf...  your comments about pitchers and quarterbacks is irrelavant.  


Fra