Conference hbahba::cam_sports

Da Super Fans wanted Dikka to come back and coach Da Bulls....


(I wanna be like Mike.....Dikka!)


'Saw

    The Bulls maul the Mavs 123 to 88.
    
    Most boring game I ever tried to watch.  
    
    The Mavs redefine TERRIBLE.
    
    The Bulls are back to their winning ways, giving their starters a 
    rest on the road.
    
    3peat.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Power to you Chip, we had to move on when it was 30-12 in the 1st ...
    
    Mavericks have to be one of the worst all-time NBA teams this season.
    
    - acp

    Well Its time to concentrate on BBall now that FB is just about
    complete, just got the probowl left and then no more football until
    draft day...
    
    I took a look at the standings and the Bulls are doing ok, sitting on
    top of the central and have the #1 record in the east... BUT WHATS THIS
    there's 3 Big Bad Teams in the West Tearing it up all with better
    records then the Bulls (of course then I noticed that the Midwest
    Division has three Mirror Image teams, mirror image of the Patriots).
    
    Ok that can somewhat explain it...
    
    Ill try and keep a somewhat game to game update of whats happening in
    bulls land.
    
    Predictions:  Chicago VS Charlotte for the Eastern Division Title
    		  Phoenix VS Portland for the Western Division Title

    
    Obviously MaB recently made bail and has his parole officer's
    permission to note again!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

>    top of the central and have the #1 record in the east... BUT WHATS THIS
>    there's 3 Big Bad Teams in the West Tearing it up all with better
>    records then the Bulls (of course then I noticed that the Midwest
>    Division has three Mirror Image teams, mirror image of the Patriots).
    
    The Bulls record would be a lot worse if they were in the West.  Not to
    mention the fact they would have to go to Denver 3 times.  Need I
    remind you what happened the last time Chicago went there to play those
    "mirror image of the Patriots."

    They may not get Pax back this year.
    
    They have played rather uninspired ball, with one exception in Utah,
    lately, but are still on top of their conference.  I think Phil knows
    that they need some low time, and since they are not really hurt by it,
    unless home court advantage starts to slip away, this is it.  Keeping 
    the pace down now ain't a bad idea as they will just burn out come 
    playoffs.
    
    3peatin' is hard to do.
    

    Hey kath, you were close they let me get a terminal in my Cell
    (cubical-same thing).  The bulls are playing good enough to stay
    on top (thats all that matters).  Hey I picked up the paper yesturday
    and all 4 Expansion teams had won there last game, I thought it was
    all the same day but 2 of them were the late scores from the previous
    night :-).
    
    If the Bulls Played in the West, the West would have a few titles in
    the last few years, the afc I mean west has the weaker divisions
    therefore you have some teams with ballooned standings, except for
    Phoenix becasue they new enough to steal away a top EASTern player
    in order to put themself on top out there in the west.
    
    I wouldng mind seeing a Phoenix VS Chicago Finals, although I want to
    root for chicago to the bitter end I hate DYYNNAASSTEEESSS and think
    they should share the wealth, 2 in a row is enough.  The 80's was too
    much LA/BOSTON glad to see some new blood but Detroit got there's and
    then chicago so maybe its time for a West Win in the Finals (anybody
    except LA, Portland or Utah).
    
    								M.Air.B  

    I think Chicago has to worry about JD's pals before Charlotte. 
    Especially if Gill keeps slippin'...
    

    Knicks finally win a regular season game in Chicago; of course it
    does not mean quite as much with Jordan not playing. Ewing had a
    gigantic game, 35 of Knicks 104 in the 104-98 win. Win gave Knicks, for
    now, the best record in the East and a 2-1 season lead over the Bulls.
    Bulls have more home games remaining which should help them. Knicks and
    Bulls play one more regular season game - last game of the year at
    Madison Square Garden.
    
    Cavs beat the Bulls tonight in Chicago.
    
    Knicks lead Chicago by .5 games, 2 in the loss column. Cavs are 1.5
    games behind the Bulls. Team with the best conference record only has
    to play either the Bulls or Cavs, 2nd best team needs to play the #1
    and #3 team in back to back series (this assumes that form holds in the
    playoffs).
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Well the Bulls are playing pretty bad as of late, even with all there
    problems and the lack of discipline and terrible play there still where
    they should be, On Top.  Yes I know the Knicks are ahead of them, maybe
    the NBA is trying to put NY on top, nothing like making sure you take
    jordan out for a game against the Other top East team and in chicago,
    wouldnt want any other town to miss out on seeing jordan.....
    
    So just like last year one team gets a huge break and a win from the 
    Jordanless Bulls, ive grown to expect it now :-).
    
    Not to worry bulls fans, they will still end up ahead of cleveland, not
    that it matters in a 5 or 7 game series cleveland wont win 2 against 
    Chicago even if all 7 where played in cleveland.
    
    Bulls have  a home stretch coming up, plan on seeing them up 3+ games
    over cleveland and 2 up on NY in a very short period of time.
    
    Does Charlotte look good or what, still said that Miami is down in
    the dumps, imaging if Miami makes a comeback and joins Orlando and
    Charlotte in the Playoffs this year :-), could be some upsets in the
    makeing...
    
    							M.Air.B

    Jordan actually choose to miss this game... He could have appealed his
    suspension....

    REK

I heard Rod Thorn of WFAN, and Jordan can not appeal a suspension.  He
can appeal the fine.  Thorn said that they didn't want the players to 
be able to pick which games they would miss.

Mike

    Oh... I stand corrected...
    
    REK

    
    Man, did I hear you right???  No, No way!  This is certainly trash
    comming from your mouth.  The Bulls havn't been putting forth the 
    effort as they did in the past.  Don't look for the Bulls to be in
    first at years end or even the All Star break.  Cleveland is poised
    to take the lead.  As far as your remark about the Bulls winning a
    series if all games were played in Richfield....I honestly don't
    think so!  And...as far as Cleveland only winning a max of 2 games...
    ...I'm saving this note so that I can throw it in your face!  SLAM!
    
    
    		DAUGHERTY	PRICE	     NANCE
    
    			A L L    S T A R S
    
    	When was the last time 3 players from the same team made the
    		All-star game???
    
    	Certainly a team effort in Cleveland!  Not a one man show!
    
    
             o
    	Go CaVs!

>    		DAUGHERTY	PRICE	     NANCE
>    
>    			A L L    S T A R S
>    
>    	When was the last time 3 players from the same team made the
>    		All-star game???
>    
>    	Certainly a team effort in Cleveland!  Not a one man show!
    

And these picks are being panned by a lot of sportswriters.   The
general tone of the comments is

	"That three players would be picked from Cleveland just
	 shows the flaws in the All-Star balloting system and
	 how it really isn't representative of anything concrete"



Just fyi,
'Saw

    1991-1992
     Dumars	   Rodman	Thomas
    
    

    Chicago has not played up to there potential where as Cleveland is.
    So all chicago has to do is play there norm and theyll go on there
    normal average winning streak and put some distance between them and
    cleveland.  Chicago is sitting with the 3rd best record as of today
    but there 1.5 up on cleveland with a game in hand.
    
    And correct me if im wrong but Paxson (starter) is out for awile IR
    and both Grant and Cartwright (starters) are out as well (or at least
    1+ games).  So how would cleveland fair against Chicago with 3 of there
    5 starters out ????? (I know injuries are part of the game, but the
    bulls last 2 loses would have been wins if not for injuries or jordan's
    suspenion). Also I know grant/cartwright played in both loses but
    neither were at 100% (although I dont think cartwright has ever been
    100% :-)...)
    
    							MairB

    
>    And correct me if im wrong but Paxson (starter) is out for awile IR
>    and both Grant and Cartwright (starters) are out as well (or at least
>    1+ games).  So how would cleveland fair against Chicago with 3 of there
>    5 starters out ?????
    
    Well, we know how they faired with 2 of 5 starters out (both Nance and
    Sanders missed the game).
    
>    (I know injuries are part of the game, but the
>    bulls last 2 loses would have been wins if not for injuries or jordan's
>    suspenion).
    
    Using the same argument, the Cavs could be well ahead of the Bulls
    right now - every starter for Cleveland except Ehlo has missed time,
    not to mention Hot Rod Williams, who while not a starter is a vital
    player for the Cavs.  And the majority of Cavs losses have occured
    when a starter (particularly Price & Daugherty) has been out.
    
>    Also I know grant/cartwright played in both loses but
>    neither were at 100% (although I dont think cartwright has ever been
>    100% :-)...)
    
    Neither was Hot Rod, who had to start in place of Nance.
    
    Being as objective as possible, I believe that the Cavs would have a
    very slight edge over the Bulls head-to-head right now if both teams
    were fully healthy.  Wilkins has helped tremendously when the Cavs
    play teams with good 2's -and- 3's, like Chicago.
    
    However, the Cav's players do seem more susceptable to injury, and
    Daugherty isn't going to be 100% this year no matter what.  So if
    the Bulls can get their injured back, the have a possible edge.  If
    they stay ahead of Cleveland, it should be enough for them to win.  B^(
    
    Joe

    Re: players choosing game suspensions
    
    I think the suspension should be the next home game for that player. 
    The Dream Team players are the ones that put people in the seats. 
    The opposing fans that don't get to see these players often shouldn't
    be penalized for it.
    
    Perfect examples are Jordan's suspension in Phoenix last season, where
    he only appears once a year, and Barkley's suspension in Cleveland this
    season.  
    
    Mike

    
    	Thanks Joe, my sentiments exactly!  Lets not use injuries as a
    scape goat.  I haven't!  The Bulls are a washed up team and can't
    seem to keep the pace as they have in the past.  They are all tired.
    Maybe they are saving it for the playoffs but they haven't in the 
    past.  Cleveland's bench is one of the best in the league and that
    will carry them far into the playoffs this year.  I expect the bench
    to carry them into the big game this year.  Jordan is one frustrated
    guy this year.  Can't make the big shot when it is needed and this
    year...can't carry the team either.  Cleveland is one of the best
    in the league and it is time for a change.  
    
    	OUT WITH THE OLD...BULLS
    
    			IN WITH THE NEW....CAVS!
    
    
             o
    	Go CaVs!

>    past.  Cleveland's bench is one of the best in the league and that
    
    Yeah, especially that Mike Sanders!  Talk about striking fear into the
    hearts of the opponents!
    
>    to carry them into the big game this year.  Jordan is one frustrated
>    guy this year.  Can't make the big shot when it is needed and this
>    year...can't carry the team either.  Cleveland is one of the best
    
    I guess you missed the Utah game.

    I'd take the Knicks bench over anyone elses in the league....
    
    REK

    
    The best part about hearing all year long how Chicago, Cleveland, and
    Phoenix just can't be beat is that at least two of the three are going 
    to be going home empty at the end of the year.  That should be a cause
    for celebration in itself...
    
    glenn
    

There is something to be said for the Bulls expereince.  I personally think 
that offensively, Phoenix is pretty close talent wise, but the Bulls will 
likely have more poise in the playoffs.  As for the Cavs, they seem to ride 
emotion, and would be capable of beating anyone under the right circumstances.

BTW - Gentlemen, this ' is called and apostrophe.  For it's proper use, refer to
      the style section of a good dictionary.  Using apostrophies correctly can 
      be and uplifting, energizing expereince.


	The 'Cadet

    Well this years seeding will be very important compared to previous
    years.  The #3 Seed could be in for some real trouble, so If cleveland
    cant overtake Chicago in the standings they will likely see the likes
    of NY in Round 2 (of course there's along way to go) but I see Chicago,
    NY and Cleveland Finishing in the top 3 spots in the east.
    
    Chicago has not been playing up to there ability (everyone can see
    that).  Basically its hard to win a championship, and then to stay
    hungry and repeat is almost impossible, but to Threepeat, you need 
    incredible focus and talant, I think alot of the chicago players have
    lost that hunger, including Jordan.  There shooting percentage is down
    there losing at home too often there just out of sync.  But coming down
    the stretch they just may snap out of it and start getting hunger pains
    deep down inside, so watch out, they still have the Best Team in the 
    East and could still be playing in mid june this year :-)
    
    I myself would like to see Chicago end up with the number 1 seed (of
    course) and for Charlotte to make an incredible comeback and end up
    with the #3 seed.  NY wins there division plays and loses to Orlando
    in Round 1 :-) and Atlanta upsets Cleveland :-).  Orlando and Charlotte
    play in the second round :-).....
    
    								MairB

To quote a great fellow noter:

	Oh, forget it.

	the 'Cadet

>To quote a great fellow noter:
>
>	Oh, forget it.
>
>	the 'Cadet


'Cadet,

You can lead a noter to an apostrophe, but you can't make him use it.....


'Saw

    
> BTW - Gentlemen, this ' is called and apostrophe.  For it's proper use, refer to
                                                         ^^^^
    
    Geez Mac, he left you the hanging curve ball and you decide to chase
    the hard slider in the dirt...
    
    glenn
    

    Yeah Bob, you substituted "an" with "and" about 3 times in your last
    note.
    
    Mike (An_And Police)

We currently have an opening for Conjunction Police and Period Police.....


'Saw

    'Saw,
    
    Yabbut what happens if the Conjunction Police and the Period Police
    get together - especially at the wrong time of the month?
    
    What will we do if the Period Police is late, or worse, goes away? 
    What will the Police do if the period is missed?
    
    Do they know how to practice safe grammar?
    
    I remain,
    erring on the side of caution, I think....
    Kev
    

    
    >>What will we do if the Period Police is late, or worse, goes away? 
    
    Cry.  THis phenomenom is followed by a 9 month reign of terror by the
    SO.  Unstoppable by ANY police.  Massive consumption of weird craved
    comsumables.  Followed by the 2am patrol which gets ya up EVERY night.
    
    
    >>What will the Police do if the period is missed?
    
    Run the other way as fast as they can and for as long as they can!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    -1,
    Danke JaKe fer that late-night belly laff on this here busy night.
    Ah needed that.  Rollward!!
    
    MikeL
    

    Da Bulls have re-acquired Ed Nealy from Golden St. for a 2nd round
    pick.

    	2001, a draft odyssey.  The kid they're going to draft isn't
    even in high school yet!
    
    				/Don

    Well Neally is better then that last guy they picked up :-)
    
    Lets see at the 1/2 way mark the bulls were looking a little sloppy
    they had the 3rd or 4rth best record and were behind the Knicks and
    had Cleveland coming up there but, now at the 3/4 mark of the season
    (or just about) there looking a little bit better.  3rd best record
    overall but #1 in the east, 1 up on the Knicks and 2.5 up on cleveland
    Thats the good news, Plus the JordanLess Bulls won for the first time
    :-) over Dallas.... Jordan should be back real soon....
    
    Go Bulls....
    								MaB

fwiw: Bulls and Knicks have the same number of losses. Bulls have won
2 more games.

The Crazy Met

    Theyre still sitting with the 2nd best overall record, second only
    to phoenix.  Did NY beat the Lakers last Night ?????  Plus I think
    Chicago holds the Tie Breaker on NY right now ?  Will be intresting
    in the east....
    								MaB

Knicks beat LA 110-104 last night.

The Crazy Met

>    Theyre still sitting with the 2nd best overall record, second only
>    to phoenix.  

    Well if they had to lose I guess Id pick the Heat, Good Job hey
    Kath....Im still in shock, maybe my eyes and ears have deceived
    me :-)....
    							M_Air_B
    (Oh no Cleveland Gained a notch, NY takes over
     the Lead in the East)

  That was one heck of a game, M_Air...and the Bulls almost stole it at the
  end.  At least it will shut Scottie Pippen up for a while  :^)

  ears still ringing,
  Kath

    Bulls lose to the Pistons 101-99. Knicks beat Indiana by 30+.
    
    For now (season still has a ways to go) Knicks lead the Bulls by 1 game
    in the race for best record in the East; Knicks lead by 2 in the loss
    column, and have 2 games in hand.
    
    Should be a fascinating 20 or so games.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Whats happened to those bulls, its bad enough to lose to an expansion 
    team but Id rather lose to Dallas then Detroit :-).  Pippen, Jordan and
    Armstrong all had chances for the winning shot and all missed,
    armstrong's attempt was from 1/2 court at the buzzer.  Pippen stunk up
    the place shooting 6 - 16, they shot around 50% for the game and were
    playing catch up from the 1st qtr on, they had a small lead at one
    point but Detroit had this game from the get go.  I still cant believe
    they lost to 2 Non-playoff caliber teams in a 4 day span.  There a full
    game behind NY and only 1.5 up on cleveland, could be a tricky stretch.
    The only good news if even if NY finishes with the best record in the
    east Chicago will still host the Eastern Champ Series at home :-)
    seeing that both NY and Cleveland will lose in the first round :-).
    
    I like the Central as it stands today Chicago, Cleveland, Charlotte
    and Atlanta.  Now if NJ can take a dive to allow NY, Boston, Orl and
    Miami in the East the playoffs would be alot of fun in the east.
    
    Seems like the 3 expansion teams in the east should no longer be
    considered expansion teams now that they move out of the bottom
    ranks of the NBA.  The west still owns the worst teams in the NBA.
    
    							M_Air_B

    One more tid bit, Grant, Cartwright and Paxson (3 Starters) are all
    hurt right now.  The bulls have also had 3 times as many games missed
    this year by starters then all of last year....... I know injuries are
    part of the game, but its easy to see that a Healthy Bulls team would
    be up 6-10 games on NY :-)

Darn right injuries are a part of the game. Lakers had mucho injuries during
the 1989 finals. Thomas was injured in the 1988 finals. Bulls last 2 years have 
been mostly injury free; it all evens out.

The Crazy Met

    I think the bulls have to make some moves this year (and during the off
    season).  cartwright is a walking wounded and can no longer give any
    worth while playing time to the team, I can almost say the same for
    Paxson.  They need to add some more Youth to this team, I know they
    will never get a high draft pick because with jordan/pippen they will
    always make the playoffs.  Grant/Jordan/Pippen/Armstrong are the team
    with most of the others expendable, they need a Center ??? What/Who can
    they get what/who is available.  They may win the east a few more times
    but the west has 1 or 2 teams that just may be able to take the bulls
    out....
    								MaB

    Re: injuries
    
    Can't forget these crucial losses either:
    
    - Celtics frontline in '87 (still made it to the finals)
    - Bird in '85                   "             "
    - losing Tiny in the '82 Eastern Conference finals.
    
    Mike

    Pistons played without Aguirre...
    

    Bulls make a move to get back on top last night by dowing the Clippers
    at home, this puts them 1/2 a game behind NY and thanks to the Mighty
    Bullets there 2 1/2 games up on cleveland :-)
    
    BJ Armstrong had 28pts (5 more then Jordan)
    
    Miami downed Denver in OT and Play against Seattle tonight, should be
    intresting hey kath, considering that Orland plays at Houston.  Miami
    could be sitting 1 1/2 back after tonight, every game counts now...
    
    As it sits now Chicago would host Atlanta and NY would host Orlando,
    I see an upset in the making :-) Shaq dominates Ewing 3 straight games
    :-)......  
    
    Good job by BJ, I hope the bulls can put together a little streak, of
    course we know what NY did last year when they were sitting on top of
    the Atlantic Division (BIG TIME CHOKE DOWN THE STRETCH) :-)
    
    								M.Air.B

>    As it sits now Chicago would host Atlanta and NY would host Orlando,
>    I see an upset in the making :-) 
    
     I guess this is a concession that Chicago would be upset in the opening
     round by the currently red-hot Hawks.

.60 makes a good point. I would rather the Knicks did not face Orlando 
in the first round. Knicks should win, but Orlando plays them tough and
could make them work. Of course, I'm not sure I would want the Knicks to
face Boston or the Nets in the first round either. Atlanta would be nice.
Guess that means Atlanta needs to finish 8th.

The Crazy Met

    Actually that could happen, but I wouldnt bet on it, Would You :-)
    NY even if they end up winning the #1 Seed in the East dont have what
    it takes to go all the way.  I can honestly say that there's 3 or 4 
    teams in the east who could knock out NY.  And dont count Charlotte
    out of Round 2 just yet, they look pretty darn good.... Im counting
    on 2 upsets in the first round, and one could easily be Chicago....
    The East is more evenly matched up then the west, I just wish the
    east had some more patsy teams like the west so they could have
    ballooned records as well.  The worst team in the East has 17 wins
    the 2 worst teams in the West added together have 18wins, talk about
    some ballooned stats...
    
    If anyone wants to see why the west has 5 teams with .600 and better
    records all you have to do is look at the bottom 3 teams, theyve handed
    out a combinded 143 wins, the west has some really bad teams.  The east
    has 3 expansion teams, but the one with the worst record would be
    banging onthe Playoff door in the west (as well as the east).  Why
    couldnt Minny play in the east (Talk about some easy wins).
    
    Here's hoping PHilly and Milwaukee can pull out wins tonight... And
    good luck Miami...
    							M.air.B

No question that the East is a toss up this year. Chicago would still be
favored even if they did not get the #1 seed in the East. But as .63 points out
Orlando/Atlanta - hot as they are, Boston are all capable of pulling upsets
in the first round - especially since it is a best of 5.

I don't agree that the Knicks do not have what it takes to win it all. They
could just be on a hot streak, but they have really put it together over the
last 20 games. They are consistently scoring 100+ points a game while still
holding the opposition to under 100. A major factor is that they have to stay
healthy; then again most championship teams also happen to have very few 
injuries.

re: records

Phoenix's record is 4 games better than the Knicks. It is an interesting
speculation what the respective records would be if the Knicks got to play
Dallas and Minnesota more often. Phoenix is haveing a great season, but ... 

The Crazy Met

"That's going to be our cancer.  That's what will break us up as a team, when we
start thinking from a selfish, personal standpoint.  Look at the teams that have
been successful in the past, and why they came apart.  Contracts are where it
started.  I guess it's going to boil down to how well Jerry Krause (Bulls'
operations chief) can keep people happy."

- Michael Jordan on teammates, namely Horace Grant, politicking for big pay
  jumps.

    Well the Bulls are back were they belong, at the top of the east.
    Granted there currently tied with NY but if they can beat Philly
    tonight they will be .5 game up on NY.  They have a 4 game cushion
    on Cleveland (hopefully 4.5 after tonight).  
    
    Can someone post the late game results from last night (Sea VS Port
    and LAC Vs SAC) thanks.
    
    major Bummed over Miami's Loss last night, they need a W in a Big way
    over the Orlando Shaq's, oh well.  Tonight Miami plays at Boston :-).
    
    Bulls are hanging tough for the race in the east, its starting to move
    towards a 2 team race between NY and CHicago.  IF Cleveland falls any
    futher behind the can give up on the #1 Seed, I dont think NY and
    Chicago will both fold down the stretch.  Im not sure who holds the
    Tie Breaking edge between Chicago-NY-Cleveland (someone fill us in).
    But Chicago would play either Indiana or Atlanta, Id rather seem them
    play indiana, I hope Atlanta gets thru round 1 :-)...
    
    With how bad the lower teams are in the west the top 8 should be set
    next month :-)
    
    								MaB

Knicks still have a 1 game edge in the loss column and 2 games in hand.

Knicks currently lead the season series over Chicago 2-1. Last game
of the season is Chicago in NY - could be a doozey!

Knicks lead the season series with the Cavs at least 2-1, might even be
3-1 in which case they win that tie breaker. Not sure what the teams
conference records are.

The Crazy Met

Article 8536 of clari.sports.basketball:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Bulls' fan hits a long one for $1 million

	CHICAGO (UPI) -- For one fan at the Chicago Stadium on Wednesday
night, the Chicago Bulls' 119-92 victory over the Miami Heat was not the
highlight.
	Don Calhoun of Bloomington won $1 million when he sank a shot from
one foul line, across the halfcourt line and the second free-throw line
and through the hoop. The prize rides on a halftime contest at Bulls
home games.
	Calhoun was picked at random from the packed Stadium stands, given a
``Million-Dollar Shot'' T-shirt and handed a ball, as the Bulls looked
on.
	He backed away from the free-throw line, took a couple of half-
running steps and hurled the basketball overhand. It sailed through the
air and swished through the basket, as Calhoun jumped up and down, up
and down.
	``It's exciting, it's exciting,'' Calhoun said as he was mobbed by
the Bulls, who slapped high-fives with Calhoun and hugged him as the
crowd screamed.
	After the game, Bulls forward Scottie Williams told reporters he
thought it was great -- and an opportunity for him.
	``I was the first one up to him,'' Williams said. ``I wanted to ask
him if I could borrow $6,000 to pay my fine.''
	Before the game, the NBA fined Williams and several other Bulls and
Detroit Pistons players for their roles in a brawl that was triggered
when Bill Laimbeer slapped Williams on the head. Laimbeer drew a $12,000
fine and Williams got half that for retaliating.

Article 8619 of clari.sports.basketball:
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From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
Subject: Chicago Bulls: 'Million Dollar Shot' man will get his money

	CHICAGO (UPI) -- It will be the real thing after all.
	The Chicago Bulls, a restaurant chain and Coca-Cola Sunday guaranteed
the $1 million won by office supply salesman Don Calhoun in a ``Million
Dollar Shot'' contest. In a joint statement, the Bulls, Lettuce
Entertain You Enterprises and Coca-Cola Fountain said reports that
Calhoun would not receive the prize money for sinking an improbable, 78-
foot basket ``are, and always have been, completely false.''
	Local media reported during the weekend that American Hole 'N One
Inc., the insurance company that bankrolled the contest, was considering
disqualifying Calhoun because it learned he had appeared in basketball
games -- albeit less than a dozen times -- for Triton College, a junior
college in a western Chicago suburb.
	Under contest rules, the contestant could not have been a college,
semi-pro or professional basketball player. It is not known whether
Calhoun had ever been required to sign a statement declaring that he had
not played college or pro basketball.
	``It is unclear at this time whether the company that insured the
event will pay on the policy,'' a joint statement said. ``However,
regardless of its decision, Lettuce Entertain You, Coca-Cola Fountain
and the Chicago Bulls will honor the $1 million award and ensure that
this event has a happy ending.''
	Calhoun also appeared at the news conference, just one of many at
which he has appeared since becoming an instant celebrity with his
dramatic overhand throw during a third-quarter intermission in a Bulls-
Miami Heat game on Wednesday night.
	``I am most appreciative to the people at Lettuce Entertain You
Enterprises, Coca-Cola Fountain and the Chicago Bulls,'' Calhoun said. 
``I want to urge everybody to eat in Lettuce Entertain You restaurants,
drink plenty of Coca-Cola and cheer for a Bulls three-peat. It feels
good to trust in people. This has turned out to be a wonderful
experience.''
	Calhoun said he would not be quitting his job as a sales associate at
the Reliable Office Superstore in Bloomington, but he indicated he would
be throwing some work the way of the friend who got him the tickets to
the Bulls game.
	``No, I'm going to keep my job,'' Calhoun said. ``I'm going to see my
good friend who gave me the Bulls tickets. He's also an investment
broker.''
	He admitted that he had some doubts in the wake of the reports that
he might not be collecting the prize, ``even though I knew that the
three companies involved and myself would pull through.''
	A $5-an-hour office supply store salesman, Calhoun became an instant
celebrity and made the round of TV talk shows after sinking the basket.
He said workers at the office supply store in Bloomington were still
answering telephone calls, ``Hello, Reliable Office Superstore, home of
the Million-Dollar Shot.''
	The weekend reports that Calhoun might not be collecting his prize
apparently forced the hastily arranged news conference, which was set up
around noon Sunday.
	Prior to the news conference, a Bulls spokesman had said Calhoun 
``will be paid every penny'' of the money -- to be paid out at the rate
of $50,000 a year for 20 years -- no matter what the insurance company
decided.
	In a Chicago Sun-Times story Sunday, Bulls marketing vice president
Steve Schanwald conceded that the Calhoun story had provided more than
$1 million in publicity for the Bulls, the restaurant chain and Coke.
	He also denied said the miracle shot proved critics were wrong when
they claimed that the shot would never be made.
	The Chicago Sun-Times also reported Sunday it had learned Calhoun was
getting counsel from a Chicago attorney, who declined to be identified.
	``The first thing I've emphasized to Calhoun is that he make sure
that he gets the money promised him,'' the attorney told the newspaper.
	``We always wanted somebody to win this,'' Schanwald said. ``And the
proof is in the pudding. ... The news reports, the excitement during and
after the shot and the way people everywhere are talking it is
generating publicity beyond my wildest dreams,'' Schanwald said. ``Far
more than $1 million worth.''
	He said the Bulls had received calls from Japan, Germany, Australia,
Brazil, Italy and Poland for videotape of ``the shot.''
	``That shot was unbelievable,'' Schanwald said. ``It certainly will
be featured in our season's highlight film.''

    Just out of curiousity, what is the road record of the Bulls vs.
    Eastern playoff teams?  I have this much info...
    
               Overall      Road             Home
               -------      ----             ----
New York        1-2         1-0              0-2  
Cleveland       2-3         
Boston          3-1
New Jersey      4-0         2-0              2-0
Charlotte       3-1         2-0              1-1
Atlanta         2-2         
Indiana         4-0         2-0              2-0
--------------------------------------------------
               19-9         7-0              5-3

Whats up with Pippen? he looked pathetic in yesterdays game.

The Crazy Met

    Pippen is the James WOrthy of the East.    Magic made Worthy.  Jordan
    makes Pippen.  He's the most overrated player in the league.
    
    JD

   >> Whats up with Pippen? he looked pathetic in yesterdays game.
    
       You can say that again! 2 for 16 for a total of 4 points!
      Scottie is just plain intimidated by the Knicks. Different
      folks react differently to physical intimidation. Guys like
      Kevin Johnson have psychotic episodes when they feel the
      least bit threatened. Scottie, on the other hand, goes into
      a shell.

 I remember Rodman used to give him migranes..........

    I agree he's overrated, but to be fair, hasn't he been struggling with
    some leg injury?

    	You want to talk about pathetic?  How about the pass he tried
    to throw to an almost triple teamed Michael Jordan Friday night
    in Charlotte while Bill Cartwright was wide open and alone under
    the basket begging for the ball?
    
    				/Don

                   Overall      Road             Home
                   -------      ----             ----
    New York        1-3         0-2              1-1
    Cleveland       2-3         1-2              1-1
    Boston          3-1         1-1              2-0
    New Jersey      4-0         2-0              2-0
    Charlotte       3-2         1-1              2-1
    Atlanta         2-2         1-1              1-1
    Indiana         5-0         3-0              2-0
    --------------------------------------------------
                   20-11        9-7             11-4

                   Overall      Road            Home
                   -------      ----            ----
    Phoenix         1-1         1-0		0-1
    Houston         0-2		0-1		0-1
    Seattle         2-0		1-0		1-0
    Portland        2-0		1-0	        1-0 
    San Antonio     0-2		0-1		0-1
    Utah            2-0		1-0		1-0
    L.A. Clippers   2-0         1-0             1-0
    L.A. Lakers     0-2         0-1             0-1
    ---------------------------------------------------
                    9-7         5-3             4-4

    
    Only thing I like about Scottie Pippen is the fack(TM) that he always
    looks like he's got his face pressed up against a piece of glass.
    
    JD

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (ROBERT J. MURPHY, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
Subject: Bulls set for three-peat run

	CHICAGO (UPI) -- Steady or not, here they go.
	Bidding to become only the third team in history to three-peat as NBA
champions, the Chicago Bulls begin the second phase of a long journey
Friday when they host the Atlanta Hawks in their playoff opener.
	Despite a 57-win season, third best in the league, the Bulls' first
phase drew mixed reviews -- ``uninspired'' at times, lack of ``swagger,''
not as good and just plain ``old.''
	The next few games should shed light on Chicago's chances this
postseason, since the Bulls have talked about getting on with the
playoffs since training camp opened last fall.
	Can Michael Jordan & Co. turn it up and rekindle that trademark high-
pressure trapping defense and high-flying transition offense? In other
words, as fans and members of the media have inquired at times this
year, have the Bulls been holding something back so as to have enough
left for another stretch run?
	``We still have a lot of things we want to prove as a team,'' said
Jordan, who with a 32.6 points a game average captured his seventh
straight league scoring title. ``In some ways, it's harder getting here,
and now we're finding out it's harder trying to stay here.''
	``I think they're prepared, anxious and ready for the playoffs to
start,'' Bulls Coach Phil Jackson said.
	When last season concluded, the Bulls were last seen dancing atop the
scorer's table at Chicago Stadium, rocking to Queen's ``We are the
champions'' after beating the Portland Trail Blazers in the NBA finals.
	Afterward, Jackson called the 1991-92 run to the crown ``an odyssey''
compared to the Bulls' 1990-91 championship, which he termed ``a
honeymoon.'' If the Bulls manage to capture a third straight title, last
season's long strange trip will look more like a tip-toe through the
tulips.
	``A lot of people have jumped off the Bulls bandwagon and are writing
us off,'' reserve forward Stacey King said. ``We have a lot of character
and pride. We're going to go until we can't go anymore.''
	Chicago finished the regular season 57-25, tied for the third-best
mark in franchise history but 10 wins less than last year. The Bulls
finished behind only the Phoenix Suns and New York Knicks, although they
recorded a marked dropoff in just about every major statistical
category. They lost their final two games and three of their last five.
	Scottie Pippen, the symbol of this year's unsteady ride, was hampered
by injuries and inconsistency. Hobbled by a sprained ankle, Jordan's
fellow All-Star and U.S. Olympian completed the regular season with a
real clunker: a season-low 4 points on 2-of-16 shooting in 34 minutes
against the Knicks on Sunday.
	Pippen still is bothered by the ankle, former sharp-shooting point
guard John Paxson has admitted his surgically repaired left knee is
acting up again, and aging center Bill Cartwright's bones are creaking
louder than 63-year-old Chicago Stadium.
	But, after a summer of Dream Teaming in Barcelona, a criminal
gambling trial that tarnished Jordan's name, some bruised egos in
training camp, a heart attack suffered by assistant Johnny Bach, a trip
to the emergency room by general manager Jerry Krause after he thought
he was having a heart attack, another season full of here comes Toni
Kukoc rumors and 82 games of jockeying for position, the real season is
about to begin.
	``Everyone's glad the playoffs are here,'' Jordan said. ``This is
where the season is really made. Now is when the real fun begins.''
	``Now we can get down to business,'' Bulls foward Horace Grant added,
``and we're ready for it.''
	The Bulls are vying to become the first NBA club to three-peat since
the Boston Celtics ran off eight straight championships from 1959-1966.
Minneapolis was the only other franchise to win three straight NBA
titles from 1952-54.
	Chicago is the third team to make a three-peat bid in the past five
years. The Los Angeles Lakers won back-to-back titles in 1987 and 1988,
and the Detroit Pistons ran off consecutive championships in 1989 and
1990.
	When the Lakers finally fell in 1989, they were beaten by Detroit in
the finals. When the Pistons fell in 1991, they were beaten by Chicago
in the Eastern Conference finals. If the pattern continues, the Bulls
will be knocked off by the eventual NBA champions and, barring an upset,
they're headed for an Eastern Conference showdown with the Knicks, who
would hold the home-court edge.
	There's no doubt Jordan is ready. He always is. The question is
whether his teammates can lend a hand.
	``We have to find that fire again and keep it burning,'' Jordan said.
``Hopefully, being the underdog is enough to keep it burning.''
	Chicago, Atlanta and the rest of the NBA world will soon find out.

    Ive always said they should have traded pippen to a lottery team for
    there first found pick (If they could get that) and/or attempt to get
    a decent center, I wonder if Charlotte would have traded there 1st
    round pick last year for Pippen straight up before they knew where 
    they were seeded, I would have love to see Morning as a BULL.
    
    Bulls VS Atlanta should be a good series, Bad thing is I cant rally
    for an atlanta upset in the first round, I wish NY had to play a real
    team in the 1st round, oh well.
    
    	NY over Indiana (Cake Walk)	Charlotte over Boston (5)
    	Cleveland over NY (Cake Walk)	Chicago over Atlanta (5)
    
    	NY over Charlotte (6)		Chicago over Cleveland (7)
    
    			Chicago over NY (7)
    
    						M.Air.B

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Jordan: Come on in but don't bug me

	CHICAGO (UPI) -- Chicago Bulls superstar Michael Jordan throws open
the doors to his new restaurant -- the latest in a string of celebrity
eating establishments in the city -- on Friday.
	But he has put everyone on notice: don't ask him for an autograph.
	A basketball 25 feet in diameter and a huge picture of Jordan doing
one of his famous slam dunks will greet those arriving at the three-
story North Side eatery named Michael Jordan's Restaurant.
	Inside, diners can sample macaroni and cheese, a Jordan favorite
using the recipe of wife Juanita, and American fare including steaks,
chops, chicken and fish.
	Jordan even has a special enclosed area where he can dine privately
while looking out on the lower floors of the restaurant.
	``This is going to be a place where I can come and relax,'' Jordan
told a group of preview guests Wednesday. ``So don't bother me when you
see me here.''
	Jordan said that includes asking him for autographs.
	``With this restaurant, it's going to be a fun place to hang out, and
you'll see some of Michael Jordan's personality,'' Jordan said.
	Even the likes of Patrick Ewing or Charles Barkley are welcome,
Jordan said, ``unless they beat us that night.''

    Of course, why ask him when he can charge you for it at a show...

See some of his personality?

That ought to take all of about half an appetizer.....


'Saw

Come one, come all...

Come pay $35 and see We like mike...Come see some of the famous Jordan
personality...but don't bother the Michael...he's relaxing right now
but he could turn on you in a flash...

That's one place I'll avoid if I ever stay in Chicago for more than an hour.


Metz
 

    No excuses, they will attempt to three peat with what most of you
    call a one man team, no center, no supporting cast, no bench, etc.
    
    They are still the best in BBall today, untill someone beats them,
    it dont look like atlanta will do that, and we have to wait and see
    what cleveland teams shows up in round 2 if they get there.  Some
    people should only NOTE if they have something usefull to add.  I
    see the same sh$% from the same folks over and over about jordan, its
    pretty stale and old at this point.  Have you seen his new commercial
    yet, this is a guy with no free time in his life at all, always someone
    watching him, taking his picture asking for an autograph.  I hope I
    never run into him, becuase I would not be able to resist asking for an
    autograph or getting a picture, he deserves his privicy just like the
    rest of us, its just alot harder for him.  Maybe sometimes he acts like
    his Hugeness, his HIGH AIRNESS and even has his little spats of Wineing
    but dont we all.  Most people would take him on there team in a heart
    beat, and most people dream about having a life like his.  But its not
    all fun and games.... Oh well enouth babbling brooks, back to work,
    
    							MairB

>    Have you seen his new commercial
>    yet, this is a guy with no free time in his life at all, always someone
>    watching him, taking his picture asking for an autograph.  

Mikey has a choice of how he wants to spend his life.  Right now Mikey
is in pursuit of The Almighty Buck.  To pursue that means exposure, and
with exposure comes groupies, and vast multitudes of groupie like
folks being unable to resist asking for his autograph.   Mikey made the
choice and I don't feel sorry for him one teeny-weeny bit.



>I hope I
>    never run into him, becuase I would not be able to resist asking for an
>    autograph or getting a picture, he deserves his privicy just like the
>    rest of us, its just alot harder for him.  

Only because of the choices he has made.


>Maybe sometimes he acts like
>    his Hugeness, his HIGH AIRNESS and even has his little spats of Wineing
>    but dont we all.  

I don't.  

To me, truly great people have humility that goes along with talent.

The last vestiges of respect that I had for Mikey went out the window when
he bitched about ALL of the Chicago organziation getting champeenship
rings.   I guess Mikey never realized that the little old lady who sat
on the switchboard for 20 years actually contributes to him being able
to be where he is.  Sounds to me like he's got a severe Leona Helmsley
complex.


>Most people would take him on there team in a heart
>    beat, and most people dream about having a life like his.  

I don't. Perhaps because I'm busy working on my own life, and creating
a quality life for myself.   I'd put forth that people who dream about
having a life like Mikey's might, as Tommy says, "have a little too much
free time on their hands."


>But its not
>    all fun and games.... 


Nope, it's a business.  And don't fool yourself -- Mikey is as cut-throat
as any other high powered, big money, exec.


JMHO,
'Saw

    
    The Bull's actually seem to be getting their engine in gear.  They 
    dismantled an Atlanta team that on paper looked like it might be some
    trouble.   Chicago/Knicks looks like the championship battle right now,
    altough I would expect Cleveland to give them a battle.
    
    			Bob 

    Re: Mikey being cut-throat
    
    I once saw a quote from Phil Jackson where he called Jordan a shark. 
    He said something along the lines of Jordan wouldn't just be happy
    beating you in anything, he'd want to rob you of your clothes too and
    send you home naked.
    
    Of course, he still could stand leaving the Pete Rose School of
    Gambling.

>    I once saw a quote from Phil Jackson where he called Jordan a shark. 
>    He said something along the lines of Jordan wouldn't just be happy
>    beating you in anything, he'd want to rob you of your clothes too and
>    send you home naked.
>    
>    Of course, he still could stand leaving the Pete Rose School of
>    Gambling.


Late last November, or perhaps it was December, WFAN had a conversation
with a columnist from Chicago who covers the Bulls.  He had some Mikey
stories to tell, and it pretty much agrees with what you've just said
Mike.....


'Saw

Scenario: Last game of the season, Bulls vs. Knicks.  Bulls losing
in the garden as Patrick Ewing is up shooting free throws near the
end of the game.  The fans start chanting MVP.

Jordan's reply later:  "I can't believe the fans started chanting for
me while Ewing was at the free throw line!"

>Jordan's reply later:  "I can't believe the fans started chanting for
>me while Ewing was at the free throw line!"


I'd be much more willing to "be like Mike", if being like Mike included
a little bit of humility.

Failing that, perhaps when we move into our new offices in Rocky Hill,
they will build me a special eating area above the rest of the cafeteria
so no one will ask me for autographs, and I might look out over my
subjects in smug satisfaction while I dine.....


'Saw

    
      Can anyone name me one athlete of Jordan's stature who was really
     "humble"?

    I loved the Comment jordan made about them chanting his name, it was a
    joke for you noters who couldnt tell.  And for those of you who dont
    have time to think about what it would be like to be a rich talanted
    athlete it shocks me that you do have enough time to write notes :-).
    
    Jordan is competative, but arnt all men ?????  He just has the talant
    and desire to win as well.  I enjoy watching sports, I enjoy watching
    a great RB dance around tacklers and In BBall I love to watch MJ forced
    into altering his shot and still sinking the basket, he's good for at
    least one incrediable Highlight per game, and hes exciting to watch on
    the floor.  He is one of the BEST of ALL TIME, no doubt about it and if
    you enjoy watching BBALL I just dont understand anyone who cant
    appreciate his talant.  His personal life should be just that, I dont
    watch him play becuase he has haynes underware or nikes on, I just
    enjoy watching him play.  
    
    I dont enjoy all the noters who never seem to have anything good to say
    about any players from any sports but just come in here to rag on
    people in general.
    
    The playoffs this year have been exciting as usall, even the west has
    thrown a curve at us with LA taking a 2 game lead over Phoenix.  I have
    no idea at this point who will make the finals, its all up for grabs,
    should be exciting down to the very end....
    
    								MairB

>      Can anyone name me one athlete of Jordan's stature who was really
>     "humble"?


Bart Starr comes to mind.  I don't believe that Larry Bird was "full of
himself" either.

Vince Lombardi certainly was (not an athlete, but the argument could be
made that he was the greatest football coach ever).


Gimme some time, I'll come up with a few.....


'Saw

    Barry Sanders...

>    I loved the Comment jordan made about them chanting his name, it was a
>    joke for you noters who couldnt tell.  

Oft times our humor strikes very close to the mark.


>And for those of you who dont
>    have time to think about what it would be like to be a rich talanted
>    athlete it shocks me that you do have enough time to write notes :-).

Well, I suppose if you're goal in life is to be rich and talented you
might have to work really hard at it.

Somewhere along the line, though, if you're LUCKY, you find some treasures
in life that have nothing at all do with with wealth and fame.   Sometimes
those treasures are so well hidden, most folks never find them.

Look for them, find them, know true peace in your life, and you'll
never feel a need to be rich and famous.


>    Jordan is competative, but arnt all men ?????  

No.  I'm not a particularly competitive person.  I like to win, but not
at all costs.  It's more important to me that I maintain good sportsmanship
and honor, than to be so competitive that I win at all costs.


>He just has the talant
>    and desire to win as well.  I enjoy watching sports, I enjoy watching
>    a great RB dance around tacklers and In BBall I love to watch MJ forced
>    into altering his shot and still sinking the basket, he's good for at
>    least one incrediable Highlight per game, and hes exciting to watch on
>    the floor.  He is one of the BEST of ALL TIME, no doubt about it and if
>    you enjoy watching BBALL I just dont understand anyone who cant
>    appreciate his talant.  His personal life should be just that, I dont
>    watch him play becuase he has haynes underware or nikes on, I just
>    enjoy watching him play.  

He has talent.  He's very good at putting a round ball through and iron
hoop and making a lot of money while doing it, thus garnering more
opportunities to make more money through endorsements.

He can be fun to watch.

I just don't wanna be like Mikey.

    
>    I dont enjoy all the noters who never seem to have anything good to say
>    about any players from any sports but just come in here to rag on
>    people in general.

No, we're not ragging on people in general.  Perhaps it's the very fact
that we have more going for us in our lives so that we don't have
to live vicariously through other's exploits.  Perhaps it's that when
you come right down to it there are a lot of other folks who really
deserve all that adulation that Mikey gets, who toil in anonymity.

I can think of a railroad car full of people that our youngsters should
wanna be like before they should be thinking of being like Michael
Jordan.


>    should be exciting down to the very end....

I'm not a big hoops fan, but I'll give you this one.  I agree 100%.



'Saw

>> Somewhere along the line, though, if you're LUCKY, you find some treasures
>> in life that have nothing at all do with with wealth and fame.   Sometimes
>> those treasures are so well hidden, most folks never find them.

>> Look for them, find them, know true peace in your life, and you'll
>> never feel a need to be rich and famous.
    
    Then if you can snatch the pebble from Saw's hand...

    Larry "I Don't Have a Daughter" Bird?  Larry "Moses Malone Eat S***"
    Bird?

    
    
      Roger Clemens?
    
    
    
          
    
       NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
    >  Roger Clemens?
    
    A much greater contributor to the society at large than Bird ever was.
    In reality (not in the sensationalized press accounts), no rocket 
    scientist, but a strong family man, and a down-to-earth guy who many 
    uppity, superior Bostonians have never been able to come to terms with 
    because of where he came from.  I'm saying this with a completely 
    straight face.
    
    glenn
    

    
    To be fair, there are very few peoplle of Jordan's stature.  The only
    one's that I can think of that come close are Wilt, in his prime,
    Pele, and Ali.  Clemens, Sanders, Staurbach, et al (including Bird)
    do/did not have the worldwide appeal that Jordan has.
    
    Pele may be the only one who displayed more "class" (whatever that is)
    than Jordan.  But it may only seem that way because, since he only
    played a minor sport (couldn't help but say something bad about
    soccer), and wasn't an American, he may have been out of the spotlight
    here.
    
    brews

    Chuck Noll????
    
    
    JaKe
    

    OK who played around with the timestamp on .108?? I refuse to believe
    that Karen was noting at 6:30PM :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Re Larry Bird:

	Humility is not detracted from by a person's mistakes.  And
	the comment about Moses surely is taken out of context.

	I agree about needing the confidence level to be able to say
	"Give me the ball with 2 seconds left, down by 3, and I'll
	tie it".  Having confidence in your abilities does not mean
	you're not humble.


re Jordan being World-Wide:

	How much of Jordan being world-wide is due to the literal
	explosion of American sports world wide in the last 15 years?

	When Bart Starr and Roger Staubach played football, it
	was really unknown in other parts of the world.  Now, they
	have had teams in European citites, whole leagues in England,
	and much interest in Japan.

	When Starr and Staubach played, there was not the huge exposure
	from sneaker commercials played world-wide that there is for
	guys like Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, and Mikey.

	Pele was world-wide because soccer is world-wide apart from the
	US.


And I agree with what Glenn said about Rocket Roger....


'Saw

Hey Glenn, keep Clemens over where he belongs will ya!!!!  ;^)

Tommy another classic with pebbles.....

How much of a chance does Jordan have to be a real human being? He's got to be
the most recoginized face on the planet. Everywhere he goes somebody wants a
piece of him. He has done some good things that I've read about with kids and
some piece I read where he got a handicapped person, I believe season tickets 
etc. So he does try but it's got to be tough. Like Brooksie said I'm sure the
remark was toungue and cheek and even if it wasn't, name me a 1/2 dozen players
who don't talk trash....

mike

    \The reason MJ and others are recognized all over the world is that
    they have sought that celebrity status because of the financial rewards
    that come with it.  If they do not want to be hounded by fans just back
    away from endorsements and other promotions.  
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    .114, bingo, I agree...  maybe Jordan has the exposure because he wants
    to expose himself (so to speak) to take advantage of it financially. 
    That doesn't sound like humility to me...
    

    > If they do not want to be hounded by fans just back
    > away from endorsements and other promotions.  
      
    And then there's the reality of the situation.  It wouldn't happen. 
    This doesn't justify the apparent lack of humility or the distastefulness
    of some of the advertising schemes, but don't think for a minute that
    the fans would just leave the best basketball player in the world alone
    if he didn't do endorsements.
    
    I don't have big problems with Michael Jordan, although I don't
    particularly admire him, personally.  In the context of his career 
    where huge egos abound, he seems to be a reasonably decent guy.  He's
    not at the forefront of some of the uglier, more violent trends in the
    NBA.  And aside from that one gambling scandal, which I hope he learned
    a lesson from, he leads a pretty clean life off the court.  So he's
    imperfect.  So was Mickey Mantle, and a lot of our boyhood heroes.  The
    NBA could be doing a lot worse with their premier attraction.
    
    glenn
    
                      

    "You have a better chance of seeing God!" - the humble Larry Bird to a
    Philly fan on the possibilities of a game 6 in 1985.

>    "You have a better chance of seeing God!" - the humble Larry Bird to a
>    Philly fan on the possibilities of a game 6 in 1985.

Yeah, so?

I've told people on the rugby pitch that I'd beat them till their brains
ran out their ears, yet it's something I'm not known for.  Nor does it
make me a violent person (which I'm not).

I think it's the way you handle yourself off the court that determines
humility, to a great extent.  Coming off the floor, having just demolished
the other team, you're going to be pumped.

It's when you do things like whine about having to give the receptionist
a Championship ring, or blow off the TEAM reception at the White House 
cause you wanna go pick up some pocket money on the links that says to
people, hmmmm, this guy things his s*** don't stink......

Anyway, that's JMHO,
'Saw

    Like Ali said, "It ain't bragging if you can back it up."  There's a
    fine line between humility and supreme-confidence, but I'd always give
    Larry the benefit of the doubt.  His quotes always cracked me up and
    that one was one of my favs.

>    Like Ali said, "It ain't bragging if you can back it up."  There's a
>    fine line between humility and supreme-confidence, but I'd always give
>    Larry the benefit of the doubt.  His quotes always cracked me up and
>    that one was one of my favs.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought about that.  A ring of troof to it
too.

I always liked the commercial that Larry did with Magic, about the
Converse shoes.  I always wanted to see the commercial go further, to
see them play.   

'Saw

Hey Saw, blowing off the white house should have made MJ a national hero.
What business is of Geroge Bush or any other fool on to hill to impose
on a person's free time by expecting them to come meet them and kiss their
feet or whatever.....

The Bulls wouldn't have the money they have without MJ and if they give
him and the other players crap about getting a bigger piece of the pie
while blowning money on expensive gifts for secretaries etc, where does 
that make Mikey a villian? I'm sure he has no problem during contract
negotitations but let's say a John Paxson wants 25K more and they say
stick it but buy 5  20K rings for folks who run  copy machines and 
answer phones....

mike

>Hey Saw, blowing off the white house should have made MJ a national hero.
>What business is of Geroge Bush or any other fool on to hill to impose
>on a person's free time by expecting them to come meet them and kiss their
>feet or whatever.....

TEAM decision to go.   

If I'm on a team, and the team decides that travel attire is suits and
ties, I go along with it, even though I'm hardly EVER caught in a suit
and tie.  It's the commitment to being a part of a team and not putting
oneself above the team.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily want to go the White House either
(unless they'd let me play that awesome piano that they have), but if
the team decides to accept the invite, the the entire TEAM should go.


>The Bulls wouldn't have the money they have without MJ and if they give
>him and the other players crap about getting a bigger piece of the pie
>while blowning money on expensive gifts for secretaries etc, where does 
>that make Mikey a villian? 

The owners made the decision to give ALL of the organization championship
rings.   (Their decision to make since they foot the bills of the team).

Mikey had a hissy fit because he felt that the switchboard operator
having a ring somehow cheapened his, when in fact, she'd been part of the
organization far longer than Mikey.


JMHO,
'Saw

    >> Mikey had a hissy fit because he felt that the switchboard 
    >> operator having a ring somehow cheapened his, when in fact, 
    >> she'd been part of the organization far longer than Mikey.

       And she had about as much to with the Bulls winning the
       championship as I did. All of this talk about Michael
       is much ado about nothing and it's just a testament to his
       incredible fame that in every iteration of SPORTS there's a
       long drawn out discussion about whether he butters his bread
       from the middle out or from the edges in and whether or not 
       that makes him a bad person.

    
    

>       And she had about as much to with the Bulls winning the
>       championship as I did. All of this talk about Michael


I disagree with that.   

Unfortunately, these teams are business enterprises, and let's face
it, they're out to make money.  All the folks in the enterprise are
important, from the janitor (I mean, you wouldn't want Mikey's toilet
bowl getting clogged up) to the switchboard operator, to the players.

(FWIW, when my brother worked for the Hartford Whalers, he said that the
players were nicer to them than the bosses, because the players recognized
how many folks it took to enable them to play hokey)


At any rate, it was a boss's decision to give them all rings, and Mikey
griped.   I will grant you that it's probably not much different than
me griping about our logo.


Oh well.....

'Saw


PS  Any fool knows that you butter bread from the EDGES!   8^)
    
    

    Sounds like that operator helped sell tickets to fill the place to
    1) help pay Michael's salary and 2) get the crowd to help give the
    home court advantage...
    

    
  >> Sounds like that operator helped sell tickets to fill the place to
  >> 1) help pay Michael's salary and 2) get the crowd to help give the
  >> home court advantage...
    
     Yeah, if it weren't for her the damn place woulda been empty.
    

    This just in, the Switchboard Operator just renagotiated her contract
    for a 4 year 4.8Million and a signing bonus of 2Millions.  AT&T 
    Imediatly signed her up to do Endorsments of AT&T Switboards !!!!!
    
    If its wasnt for me watching the Games on TV the Networks wouldnt
    give so much money to the NBA to pay its teams to pay its players !!!
    
    WHERE MY FREAKING RING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    								MaB :-)

    And if it weren't for the ushers, no one would be in their seats, and
    if not for the custodians, the place would be a pigpen... and Michael
    wouldn't have his Gatorade without the water boys...
    
    
    If we beat IBM for most sales for a quarter, and Palmer kept a raise
    freeze and gave the VP's all bonuses, should people be upset?  If
    he gave raises, and a VP objected, is that good for the organization?
    I don't think so... Michael had a lot to do with it, but he shouldn't
    be the one calling the shots.  And a successful organization needs
    everyone to succeed.  Not just the ones directly affecting the end
    result.

Hey, 

I'm just telling yunze what I heard discussed on WFAN.


And besides, if Mikey was such a great guy, he should have given the
elderly lady who's answered the phones there for years and years and
years, his own ring, as a sign of good fellowship and team spirit!

8^)


'Saw

    No, the Operator didn't ask for it, the management gave one to everyone
    in the organization.  Michael had a problem with that.  Until Michael
    is owner, he shouldn't question decisions like this publicly, IMHO...
    

>    No, the Operator didn't ask for it, the management gave one to everyone
>    in the organization.  Michael had a problem with that.  Until Michael
>    is owner, he shouldn't question decisions like this publicly, IMHO...


Amen!


Party on Walt!
'Saw
    

    hope this helps,
    Conrad Dobler

 
    Where is all of this stuff about Michael demanding this, Michael making
    this rule, Michael breaking that rule coming from?  If it's from that
    stupid book then consider the source.  I sense a double standard of the
    first order being applied here based on some fairly petty hearsay
    information (or at least some major exaggeration, as with the White 
    House issue).  Like with the Bird comparisons.  Bird also called his own 
    shots when he was at the top.  Just ask Bill Fitch, among others.  And
    I'm sure that it's a very similar situation with the stars on just
    about everyone else's favorite team.  That's the way it goes with the
    guys who produce the results (which may or may not be the case with
    Walt's hypothetical VP), and minus the book-selling media spin that
    doesn't necessarily mean they're ogres.  For a guy who hasn't exactly 
    killed anybody Jordan seems to be the subject of an awful lot of 
    vindictiveness. 
    
    glenn
    

    Michael can do what he wants... He doesn't have to be a sweetheart,
    but I wouldn't use humble to describe him.  Talented, driven,
    determined?  Sure...
    

    
      Just curious - what started this whole Michael discussion?

>    Where is all of this stuff about Michael demanding this, Michael making
>    this rule, Michael breaking that rule coming from?  If it's from that
>    stupid book then consider the source.  

My sources were from a WFAN interview with a Chicago Sportswriter who
covers the Bulls.

I didn't say that Michael broke any rules.  I do feel that his non-attendence
at the team function at the White House was pretty self-centered.
His whining over the rings was childish.


>    For a guy who hasn't exactly 
>    killed anybody Jordan seems to be the subject of an awful lot of 
>    vindictiveness. 
    
I don't know.  My sources put Mikey on a grassy knoll in Dallas in
November 1963, have him in an LA hotel kitchen in 1968, and in point of
fact, there is tremendous evidence that Michael is indeed an immortal
extraterrestrial, who, among other things was in Ford's Theatre in
April, 1865.....    8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

    Either the humility factor around .90 or talk about the restaurant
    where you can see him, pay money in his restaurant, watch him eat,
    but not bother him...
    

>      Just curious - what started this whole Michael discussion?

I think Air Brooks put something in about Michael, and I think I was
in a mood to yank Air Brooks chain.  I did, and nexted thing you know,
everyone was in the melee......

And like the humongous fat kid who started the Barfarama in "Stand By
Me", I've been sitting back enjoying it tremendously....8^)


'Saw

Tommy see .83

The Crazy Met

> Tommy see .83
    
    Like I said, media spin.  Michael Jordan opens restaurant, Michael
    Jordan tours invited guests, Michael Jordan jokes around about not
    wanting to be bothered there (a reasonable request), Michael Jordan
    opens fire on crowd of orphaned schoolchildren who come there to
    meet him.  Same thing goes on at LarryWorld in French Lick all the
    time... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
     re .142
    
     Kevin McHale once said pretty much said the exact same thing 
     as Mikey. He said he didn't mind giving autographs but it really
     annoyed the hell out of him when he was out to dinner with his 
     family and people start coming up to the table for autographs
     in the middle of his meal. Strange that Kev wasn't villified for 
     his statements, though.

McHale wasn't pumping his own restraunt when he said it. McHale also doesn't
actively seek out the publicity that Jordan does. (of course being a twin to
Herman Munster doesn't help his endorsement status).


Metz

    Isser anyone out there, after last night, that is still _not_ convinced 
    Mikey Jordan is not a hoops_god?

    The man is glorious.  halleuja.  Amen.

    In this day and age, it seems that the media is always looking for
    someone to raise to the highest level of his or her sport.  Things are
    great for awhile, but at some point, little chinks in the players armor
    begin to be pointed out.  As these chinks are pried into, some of the
    glitter applied by the media begins to chip off.  Eventually, the
    player finds that he isn't as wonderful as he was previously told he
    was by the same media.  Not necessarily the same writer/reporter, but
    still the media.
    
    Michael Jordan is, in my opinion, the very best basketball player
    today.  This has absolutely nothing to do with his life off of the
    court, or his personal feelings.  It is strictly related to his playing
    talents and his performances.
    
    Now, I know it's happened to me where I slightly know a person who
    seems to be a great and wonderful example of what a human SHOULD be. 
    But, as I get to know them better, I find little things that either
    annoy me or are opposed to my own personal views.  Suddenly, it dawns
    on me that this person is NOT perfect, as I define perfection.  Has
    he/she changed?  Probably not, it's just that I am now exposed to
    his/her more personal feelings and values that I hadn't noticed before.
    
    What a lot of these athletes don't realize is that the more exposure
    you have, the more you are exposed.  Those seeking the limelight must
    realize that they can't always control what is seen or heard, or perceived
    by the viewer.  Right or wrong, the harsh spotlight does indeed make
    visable what once may have been obscure in the shadows.
    
    Lee
    

    "I collect endorsements"
    	-Michael Jordan in the UD card commercial...
    

    
    Remember whining "how come we have to learn this stuff?  I'll 
    *never* use this in Real Life!"?  Well, maybe you could've.  Save 
    this to show your offspring when s/he pulls that line on you  :^)
    
    hth,
    Kath 
    
                     JORDAN CAN'T BAG BURGER OFF TOWER
                                 -- By Seth Borenstein
                                    Ft. Lauderdale Sun_Sentinel
                                    May 6, 1993
    
    The TV challenge:  "Off the expressway, over the river, off the 
    billboard, through the window, off the wall, nothing but net."
    
    The reality:  No way.
    
    Larry Bird cannot make that basketball shot.  Neither can Michael 
    Jordan.  Jordan may regularly defy the law of gravity, but he would 
    face too stiff a wind to beat the laws of physics.
    
    In a McDonald's TV commercial, the basketball greats play a 
    superstar version of H-O-R-S-E, taking -- and making -- increasingly 
    difficult shots, with a Big Mac the winner's reward.
    
    They decide to settle the bet from the top of Chicago's Sears Tower.  
    And that's where wind resistance deflates Air Jordan, said Jeff 
    Harvey, a physics professor at the University of Chicago.
    
    Even though the Sears Tower, the tallest building in the world, is 
    1,454 feet high, a basketball launched from the top would fall no 
    faster than about 40 to 50 mph because it's so big, yet so light, 
    Harvey said.  Wind resistance would slow it down.
    
    It would bounce off the expressway, if it didn't hit someone first, 
    injuring or killing them, he said.  Then it would bounce, but just 
    25 to 40 feet off the road.
    
    "You might hit a billboard off the freeway if the billboard were 25 
    feet up.  After that it's going to bounce 5 or 6 feet and that's 
    it," Harvey said.  "It's not going to go high enough to get through 
    some window in a building.  Not even Michael Jordan can do this."
    
    But even after verifying his calculations with three fellow 
    physicists, Harvey came up with an in-jest caveat to his theory:  
    "Everybody knows the laws of physics don't apply to Michael Jordan.  
    So he might be able to do it."

    
    I wonder how long it took that guy to figure out that they couldn't
    _really_ make that shot?  Maybe he ought to get a real job.
    
    brews

    Since Jordan concedes to the laws of nature, Bird wins by default.

    Anudder case of somebody with too much time on his hands. Dadgum
    phony-type technician..... musta went to MIT.
    
    Next they'll tell me ain't no such thing as the Great Pumpkin.
    
    MikeL
    

Which leads me to conclude that EXCEPT for the wind resistance, the rest of 
the commercial was possible.  Right?

What's the line from GhostBusters?

"I've been in the private sector, Those guys expect results!!!"

    Well The Bulls are on there way, Jordan, I mean the bulls went out
    and took game 1 at home 91-84.  Jordan had 43 points on 16-30 shooting
    to go with 11-11 from the line, Scott Williams had 6 pts and 10 boards
    Grant had 6 pts on 3-4 shooting and 2blocks not sure on the boards but
    he played limited min's.  Armstrong was the second leading scorer for
    the bulls with just 10, but pippen and king both had 9.  Both teams
    shot under 50%.
    
    Maybe they should leave cartwright on the bench, and start one of the
    bench players in his place :-)
    
    			CARTWRIGHT	1-6 0-0 2pts 10boards
    
    			Williams        4-6 0-0 8pts 10boards
    			King		3-5 3-3 9pts  ?boards
    
    	Williams and King are the keys to how far the bulls go, they
    	played a great combined effort game :-), 2 centers are better
    	then one, I dont know if purdue played ??? I missed the first
    	half (At my night job :-( ...)
    
    							MairB

    Bulls take game 2 in a close one :-), final scored bulls +19
    Jordan is injured, tried to do his normal routine of coming back in
    after an injury, gets fouled goes to the line and shoots the second
    shot lefty !!!!!!!!! Hopefully he will be back for game 3 on saturday
    but at least being up 2-0 if he's out for 1 or 2 games they still have
    a shot at it.  Pippen scored 19 on good shooting and Grant scored 20
    on good... NO Great... or HOW ABOUT PERFECT SHOOTING, he was 4-4 from
    the line and 8-8 from the field for 20 pts... Not to shabby, glad to
    see his ankle is doing a little better.  Of course the bad news is,
    Injuries, the bulls are not a 100% and the knicks will likly wrap there
    series up early so the bulls wont have time to rest either ?  Not
    saying the injuries will make the bulls fold but NY will be a tough
    series even at 100%.
    
    Game 3 on Saturday In cleveland, I think its at 3:30...
    								MairB

    Some more numbers for you
    
    	Pippen 8-15 3-7 19pts 7ass      4steals 1 block
    	Grant  8-8  4-4 20pts 2ass 4reb 1steal
    	Armstrong
    	       6-9  0-0 14
    	Jordan 8-18 2-5 18pts 6ass 5reb
    	Williams
    	       3-10 0-0  6pts     10reb
    
    	Game 3 will be a little closer, this series has not been what
    	I was expecting...
    								MairB

    
    Wilkins is holding Jordan under his average!! He IS a Jordan killer.
    
    brews

Nah Brews. Average Jordan's 61 points over 7 quarters instead of 8 and
his average is a couple of points higher than during the regular season.

HtH

The Crazy Met

    Tenacious 4th quarter comeback by the Bulls to beat Cleveland 103-101
    and sweep the series. Hell of a shot by Jordan at the buzzer.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
      I hope TNT covers the next round of Bulls games so that Gary 
     Bender can break his personal record for saying, "you never get 
     tired of watching him" when talking about Michael Jordan. He said 
     it 327 times last night but I know he can do better than that.

Oh, he was talking about Jordan?????

I thought he was talking about Seinfeld.....

I think Jordan showed what it takes to be a true superstar instead of a 
superstar wanabee (this includes Pippen).  Forget the media hype, arrogance, 
restarant BS, this man can take to the right level when he has to.  Maybe 
it happened at the same time as a en masse Cleveland lay down, but did Michael
Jordan just take charge of a total shredding of the Cavaliers?  Not a single 
handed effort, by any means, but pretty impressive.

Who said "it ain't arrogance if you can back it up" ?

Fortunate for some that the MVP voting doesn't include the playoffs...

		Bob Cohen

    Jordan average 31pts for the series, What was his regular season avg
    :-) , granted 31pts for jordan in a series VS Cleveland is low by the
    standards he has set in the past.  Gerald should call back Dominique
    to setup some T Times becuase theyll both be playing gold thanks to 
    jordan (who by the way could take them both out on the gold course as
    well :-) ).  This game was a surprise to me, I cant believe they swept
    Cleveland, either cleveland just isnt that good or they just completed
    a huge roll over.  Up by 11 with like 9 mins to go and they CHOKE.  The
    Brad D's D on Jordan was the worse play of the night, Cleveland was
    winning jordan on a Break and Brad Foul's him and lets him score as
    well, jordan converts the 3pt play putting the bulls up by a pair.
    
    With 12 seconds left I said to my wife, here's were they double up on
    jordan and BJ drains the 20ft jumper to seal Cleveland's fate, BUT
    WHATS THIS NO DOUBLE TEAM, ARE YOU NUTS, ARE YOU BRAIN DEAD... It
    seemed like all of cleveland forgot about 1989, and forgot about what
    jordan can do with a basketball, no double team give up the 18ft jumper
    to the best player in the damn league
    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????absolutley
    puzzling... But hey who can complain about the results.
    
    Next round should be more intresting, I see both teams holding serve to
    game 5 in NY where chicago makes there move and beats NY on the court.
    SHould be a great eastern finals, with great REAL BBall games, not big
    WWF matches like last year.  The Knicks have improved greatley well the
    bulls took a small step backwards in losing some of there depth. 
    Should be a close series.  (Cant wait).
    
    Well see you NY Fans later in the week or on the weekend, MairB

    Boy I need to slow down my fingers, thats obviously GOLF not GOLD in
    the previous msg, of course some people may not know what T Times are.
    
    								MaB

    Ditto .147, Ditto .147, Ditto .147...
    
    Etc...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Well The Eastern Finals are all set, Chicago Bulls VS The NY Knicks.
    pretty much what most people expected (maybe not what they wanted but
    what they expected).  I know the regular season dont mean much come
    playoffs so lets take a look at the playoffs so far.  In both rounds
    NY had the easier opponents yet they lost a few games and in both
    series had a few very, very luck wins.  Indiana played them tough, and
    charlotte kept every game close.  Chicago on the other hand has swept
    thru the first 2 rounds, not with ease but not with too much trouble.
    The only thing that kept anyone close was injuries to jordan and grant.
    
    As always injuries could take a major role, the bulls need there front
    court to take out NY.  People say without jordan they wont go far,
    while if grant or pippen and maybe even BJ go down they could be in
    just as much trouble.  There bench is not that great, I still think
    there backup centers Williams/King combined do a better job then
    Cartwright.  But maybe cartwright can get to ewing mentally ??????
    Should be an intresting series, and NY should give chicago a little
    more chalange then there previous 2 opponents.  First game is this 
    weekend but I have not seen or heard what day or time, anybody have any 
    details on the schedule for Chicago VS NY (thanks).
    
    Also who won the 2 games out west last night, I went to bed and the
    paper didnt have the late scores, thanks.
    
    								MairB

I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Atlanta was a harder squad than
the Pacers.  I mean they might have had a better record, but clearly (as
ol' Dan Schneider would say) they were the bottom of the barrel as far
as playoff teams were concerned....

ditto on Clevleand being a tougher match than Charlotte. Charlotte ended
the season on a roll, even beating the Bulls at the end of the season.
Cavs looked like they were mailing it in, they did not appear to ever
show up for that series.

I would guess that most fans wanted to see Knicks vs. Bulls (unless they
were fans of the Cavs, Hornetts, whatever). 2 best teams in the East
meeting for the chance to go to the Finals is appropriate.

Hopefully this will be a good series.

The Crazy Met

    "This is the way it should be.  The 4 best teams are still playing." -
    Sir Charles

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Kukoc has landed

	CHICAGO (UPI) -- Toni Kukoc, widely regarded as the best basketball
player in Europe, has traveled to the United States and reportedly was
greeted by a representative of the Chicago Bulls, who drafted him in
1990 and have been wooing him ever since.
	NBC-TV reported that Kukoc flew into the Minneapolis airport on
Saturday, in an attempt to avoid the Chicago media, and was met by Al
Vermeil, the Bulls' strength and conditioning coach.
	Kukoc, the Yugoslavian native taken in the second round of the NBA
draft, has said he finally has decided to play in the NBA after
competing the last few years in the Italian league.
	A report out of Italy last week said Kukoc and his agent, Luciano
Capicchioni, was scheduled to meet with Bulls vice president of
basketball operations Jerry Krause on Monday. The normally tight-lipped
Krause denied the report.
	``I'll be in New York with the team for the playoffs on Monday,''
Krause said. ``Any reports otherwise are false. It's just not true.''
	The Bulls opened their Eastern Conference final series in New York
Saturday afternoon.
	Kukoc, 24, is a left-handed swingman who played for the Yugoslavian
National Team in the 1992 Olympics.

    In Charles' opinion of course...  Houston and Seattle had the same
    record, right?
    

    Then why did Seattle have HCA over Houston?

    Tie breaker in head-to-head... does that make them better? Or even?
    

Especially considering the first two meetings of the two teams were in Japan 
for the first two games of the regular season.

Houston and Seattle are as even as two teams can be...

Houston still must be kicking themselves they lost to Dallas in teh regular
season finale and lost home court advantage...


Metz

    Knicks up 10 late in the 3rd...

Knicks hold off a huge run by da Bulls to win in regulation.

Keys to the failed comeback were two bricks from the free throw line by Mr. Bill
Cartright, and one of the best quick moves to the hoop for a layup that I've 
ever seen by John Starks.

Knicks lead 2-0.

I like seeing the Knicks do well, it just kill sme that Pat "Threepuke" Riley 
will somehow usurp the attention from his players, and focus it on himself.  The
man is scum...

=Bob=

    re .178
    
    Bob, why the venom towards Riley?  I never was a Laker fan, and am not
    a Knicks fan.  However, I certainly respect the coaching job Riley has
    done for both teams.  Most people thought that while with the Lakers,
    Riley didn't get near the recognition that he deserved.  Pat never went
    looking for it either.  The only way he brought attention to himself
    was by perhaps wearing suits that are as much as my monthly mortgage!
    
    - Rope

    I don't think they're done yet, but it's obvious they have to sweep in
    Chicago now.

    
    You mean the same PAt Riley that coined the term threepeat one day, and
    went to see the lawyers the next to have it copyrighted (so's he could
    get a royalty from every teeshirt with the term printed on it) was
    never involved in sef-agrandizing?  You mean the same PAt Riley that
    took a team over that was already winning, that at one point had 4 #1
    (not first round, first pick) draft choices had a tough job in LA?  You
    mean the same PAt Riley that took over a young team a year ago, had
    them 4 games up with 5 to go and managed to see them lose homecourt
    advantage to an aging,injured Celtic team is doing a fine job in NY?
    
    brews 

    Ok, so what's the deal with Heir Jordan?
    
    He was at Atlantic City at 2:30 AM Tuesday?  He had a game at 8:00 PM
    Tuesday?
    
    Jordan's been tied to gambling before.  I don't care that he was out on
    the town instead of preparing for game 2.  What was he doing down
    there?  Placing bets on basketball games?  Noticed how he shot poorly
    down the stretch?
    
    Is the NBA investigating?  Schlester (sp) and Rose were run out for
    gambling, weren't they?

    
    > Jordan's been tied to gambling before.  I don't care that he was out on
    > the town instead of preparing for game 2.  What was he doing down
    > there?  Placing bets on basketball games?  Noticed how he shot poorly
    > down the stretch?
    > 
    > Is the NBA investigating?  Schlester (sp) and Rose were run out for
    > gambling, weren't they?
    
    There's no sports book in Atlantic City, so Jordan's gambling had to
    have been of the "legal" variety.  But much like Pete Rose, who elicits
    heartfelt pleas for his reinstatement to baseball at the same time he's
    giving his bluechip racing picks live from Churchill Downs, Michael
    just doesn't get it.  He's setting himself up for a big fall, if only
    to his PR empire, I think.
    
    glenn
    
                    

    I can't believe the job the poor undermanned Knicks are doing against
    the Bulls. The Bulls who suit up a perennial all star MVP, two dream
    teamers, and two first team All-defense squaders.  All the po' KNicks
    can counter with is a po' dream team center with gimpy knees.  Oh what
    overachievement.
    
    JD

      >> The Bulls who suit up a perennial all star MVP, two dream
      >> teamers, and two first team All-defense squaders.  
    
         You make it sound like that's about five different guys.
    
      

    
       Kind of interesting to watch and read about the dynamics 
      of the Jordan-Pippen relationship after glimpsing the Bird-
      McHale relationship here in Boston. Michael, like Larry, has 
      no qualms about criticizing his lesser talented teammate and
      kicking him in the ass to get him going. And Scottie, like 
      Kevin, has that reputation for softness and appears to lose 
      focus from time to time. 

    It's interesting to see that there's no witchhunt on for MABrooks now
    that his team is down 2-0.

    
    >> It's interesting to see that there's no witchhunt on for 
    >> MABrooks now that his team is down 2-0.
    
       His team is the two-time defending champ. There's a long way
       to go, Mikey. Try to remember that will you?

    Where is MABrooks?  Good point... I've been at class the last 3 days,
    didn't notice...
    
    
    ewsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
    Subject: Report: Jordan stayed out gambling night before Bulls loss
    Keywords: basketball, men's professional, broadcast
    Message-ID: <bkp-east-jordanU3yR1230ae@clarinet.com>
    References: <bkp-eastU3yQ1120pe@clarinet.com>
    Date: Wed, 26 May 93 21:30:29 PDT
    Location: illinois, new york
    ACategory: sports
    Slugword: bkp-east-jordan
    Priority: regular
    Format: regular
    ANPA: Wc: 289/311; Id: z0317; Sel: xxskp; Adate: 5-27-1230aed
    Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
    Codes: yskprxx., &skpril., &skprny., bskprxx.
    Lines: 27
    
    	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Michael Jordan reportedly was spotted at an Atlantic
    City, N.J., casino early Tuesday morning, less than 18 hours before the
    Chicago Bulls lost to the New York Knicks in Game Two of the Eastern
    Conference Finals.
    	The New York Times reported in its Thursday editions that Jordan was
    seen by employees and patrons at the Bally's Grand Casino as late as
    2:30 a.m. EDT.
    	A pair of longtime Knicks fans with baseline seats heckled Jordan
    about his gambling exploits and claimed to have seen him at the casino
    tables.
    	Jordan scored 36 points and grabbed nine rebounds in Chicago's 96-91
    loss to the Knicks that gave New York a 2-0 lead in the best-of-seven
    series. He was 12-for-32 from the field and hit 11 of 13 free throws.
    Jordan was held to 11 points in the second half on 5-for-16 shooting and
    did not score over the final 2:46, when the Knicks were clinging to the
    lead.
    	Jordan could not be reached for comment, but Jerry Krause, the Bulls'
    vice president for basketball operations, told the newspaper, ``I can't
    believe that Michael would do something like that. Michael has too much
    respect for his team...Maybe he did go down there for a couple of hours,
    but Michael has a great sense and feel for his own body.''
    	Jordan won his seventh straight NBA scoring title this season and
    finished third in voting for the Most Valuable Player award.
    	A three-time MVP, Jordan was called to the league's New York offices
    last year amid reports he had written more than $150,000 worth of checks
    that were used to pay golf and other gambling debts in North Carolina.
    NBA officials took no action against Jordan.
    

    	If ya think JD's bad now, watch if the Knickerbockers win the
    Champeenship.  Have the objective New York writers claimed this team to
    be a dynasty yet?
    
    				/Don

    Yeah,
    I can see he and the Muttster now;  " Overachieving, agin all odds,
    hobbled Knicks uplifted by wild yahoos in Garden, win the
    champeenship." 1973 revisited. Yuck
    
    

    	I don't buy the Times story.  They're just joining the
    KnickerbockerRileyHypeMachine and helping HisPatNess with a psyche job
    on Chicago.  Sad day indeed when the "All the news that's fit to print"
    paper whores itself out for the "cause".  8^(
    
    				/Don

    
    Hey, 
    
    Look at the Knicks lineup, One superstar with Gimpy knees that didn't
    even START in the all-star game.  A bunch of aging role players like
    Doc Rivers and Oakley, and a bunch of overachieving cogs like Mason and
    Starks and Smith, et al.
    
    Compare to Chicago with the Fantastic Two, or Phoenix, with the MVP,
    the greatest Point Guard inthe History of the Game, wily veterans like
    Ainge, a budding Superstar in Thunder Dan, and a crop of wonderful
    rookies.  Oh the po' Knicks.  No dynasty even if they win.  Too old,
    too banged up.  
    
    This team is more like the Bluecoats in Valley Forge, trying to survive
    against hte better armed and equipped redcoats from Chicago.  An
    inspiration for all.
    
    JD

    Good to be up 2-0. But as .?? pointed out Bulls can still come back.
    
    Game 3 is Saturday, game 4 is Monday. Realistically the Bulls need to
    win both games or the fat lady will be getting ready for her final
    aria.
    
    Oh yeah where is MABrooks?
    
    The Crazy Met

	Who can roll the dice, getting lucky sevens
	Who can spin the roulette wheel and hit on an eleven
	The Casino man can, The Casino Man can
	The Casino man can cause he doesn't really care if he's down 2-zip.

	Who can hit the tables, staying up all night?
	Who can pull the slot machine until the morning light
	The Casino man can, The Casino Man can
	The Casino man can cause he doesn't really care if he's down 2-zip.

	Who can hit golf links, and lose 'bout fifty grand
	Who can say that he's the best at playing round ball in the land	
	The Casino man can, The Casino Man can
	The Casino man can cause he doesn't really care if he's down 2-zip.

	Who's that at the horse track, layin' down his bet
	Who's can dial up his bookie and not even break a sweat
	The Casino man can, The Casino Man can
	The Casino man can cause he doesn't really care if he's down 2-zip.

      re .197

      You neglected to mention that the Knicks have the best coach
      in the game, one of the leagues best rebounders and defensive
      power forwards, a second team All-Defensive teamer and are the
      Vegas favorites to take it all. Just an oversight on your part 
      I'm sure.


      BTW - that was quite a tasteful display that MSG put on
            with the laser light show before they introduced the
            Knicks in game one. The only thing that could have
            added to it would have been Charlton Heston, dressed as
            Moses, reading the names of the Knicks from a stone
            tablet.
      
    

 second best Tommy. I think Daly's better. 

 mike

    'Saw's waxin' poetic again.  Good job, there matey.
    As Mikey said at Bally's "Hit me!"
    
    Hey JD, kitchyerpostulatin'. Ya sound worse than Knute Rockne with the
    Gipp story. And I thought you was LyinInBedJustLikeBrianWilsonDid.
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    Being the Vegas favorite to take it all means zippo. It simply means
    that Vegas figures those are the odds that will bring in the most
    balanced bets on each of the teams. Vegas had different odds a few
    weeks ago.
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    Tommy, watch the light show they try to do in Chicago and you'll see
    what tru faux glitz is.
    

      >> Being the Vegas favorite to take it all means zippo.
      >> It simply means that Vegas figures those are the odds 
      >> that will bring in the most balanced bets on each of 
      >> the teams.
    
          It means plenty. It means the betting public has installed
          the Knicks as the favorite. 
    
      >> Tommy, watch the light show they try to do in Chicago and 
      >> you'll see what tru faux glitz is.
    
          It don't get much faux-er or glitzier than the spectacle that
          was put on at the Garden. But then again, MSG management is 
          just gearing the show to its audience. All them folks that 
          couldn't tell Doc Rivers from Doc Gooden a couple a months ago 
          ain't gonna be satisfied with JUST a Bulls-Knicks matchup. Nope,   
          best to get some lasers and some smoke and a soundtrack. Get 
          some showgirls, two elephants and Wayne Newton singing "I Love
          New York". But make sure it's tastefully done.

    
	>> The Casino man can cause he doesn't really care if he's down 2-zip.

           I don't think this is true.
    

    Tommy -
    
    Light shows? They got em everywhere.  Shoulda seen lasted nights Kings
    game!  Do it for the Leafs too...Its happening.
    
    And Tommy, look at the po' Knicks lineup, lots of role players, lunch
    pail guys, no prima donna's like on them other teams.  Why there best 
    player couldn't even finish in the top 4 in the MVP voting!   No 
    individual rewards.
    
    Nope, this team is like the Yanks at Bastogne.  Surrounded by superior
    firepower and numbers, but just says "Nuts" to anyone who suggests
    quitting.   This team is like the little engine that could, big in
    heart, short on talent.  To be up 2-0 doesn't mean a thing.  I await
    the NBA mandate to the refs to turn the series in CHicago's favour.
    
    Nope, like Custer at the Little Big Horn, the Knicks are in hostile
    territory and are just one gimpy knee away from a lottery pick.
    
    I get a tear in my eye thinking about the true guts displayed by this
    band of misfits...
    
    JD

    
   >> Nope, like Custer at the Little Big Horn, the Knicks are in hostile
   >> territory and are just one gimpy knee away from a lottery pick.
    
      Custer was one gimpy knee away from a lottery pick?
    

>                           -< gawd awful poem, 'Saw >-

Yeah, I know Tommy.

It was early, I hadn't had any coffee, the guy in the next cube kept on
trying to explain the latest fiber optic technology to me, the sun
was in my eyes, my shoe was untied, my cup was peenching a tes-tik-kal, 
and the moon is in the wrong phase.....


'Saw

    Hey! I liked it,
    
    But I'm sado-masochistic also 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    
  >> Light shows? They got em everywhere.  Shoulda seen lasted nights 
  >> Kings game!  Do it for the Leafs too...Its happening.
    
     Gee, for someone who at one point took it upon himself to alert
     SPORTSnoters everywhere to the evils of faux-fandom, you sure
     are embracing it whole hog now that a New York team is its leading
     practioner. I hope the series comes back to New York because I
     hear that for Game 5's intros a bunch of musclemen dressed as 
     Roman slaves are going to carry the players out to the court from
     the lockerroom as their names are announced.

  >> And Tommy, look at the po' Knicks lineup, lots of role players, lunch
  >> pail guys, no prima donna's like on them other teams.  

     Who's Seattle's prima donna? I love local guy Pat ewing but he's as
     much a protected star as anybody in the league with the exception
     of Michael Jordan.

  >> Why there best player couldn't even finish in the top 4 in the MVP 
  >> voting! No individual rewards.

     Didn't Ewing finish *exactly* fourth in the MVP voting? And I'd say
     second team All-NBA and second team All-Defense are individual
     awards.
    
  >> Nope, this team is like the Yanks at Bastogne.  Surrounded by superior
  >> firepower and numbers, but just says "Nuts" to anyone who suggests
  >> quitting.   This team is like the little engine that could, big in
  >> heart, short on talent.  To be up 2-0 doesn't mean a thing.  I await
  >> the NBA mandate to the refs to turn the series in CHicago's favour.
    
     This team is just like New York. Pushy and abrasive and dependent
     upon the talent of Bostonians.
    

    
    >> Hey! I liked it,
    
       To each his own. I hate song parodies. I think Al Yankovic 
       should have his skin rubbed raw with grade 00 sand paper and
       dipped in rubbing alcohol. But that's just my opinion.
    

Song parodies have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Some are good, some aren't.  The thing to be careful of is that your
parodies not get hackneyed...


'Saw

    Knicks also have the COY, though he didn't deserve it.

    Don't start that rathole Mike in the Bulls topic... could get into
    if Chaz deserved it...
    

> It was early, I hadn't had any coffee, the guy in the next cube kept on
> trying to explain the latest fiber optic technology to me, the sun
> was in my eyes, my shoe was untied, my cup was peenching a tes-tik-kal, 
> and the moon is in the wrong phase.....
    
> 'Saw
    
    Dean Smith would be proud of you.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
    
    

    	Saying the Knickerbockers are overachievers is like saying that
    Vanna White gets TV gigs 'cuz of her brains and personality.  Good to
    see though that JD has joined all the New York newspapers in the pompom
    parade.
    
    				/Don

    Not only has JD done a mongo flip-flop on the faux fan issue, a
    flip-flop of Clintonesque stature, but we need to report him to the
    there/their police.
    
    brews

    
    Mongo like beans.......
    

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Jordan gambled, but denies late night

	DEERFIELD, Ill. (UPI) -- Chicago Bulls superstar Michael Jordan
admitted Thursday he did gamble in Atlantic City, N.J., on the eve of
his club's Game 2 loss in the Eastern Conference finals against the
Knicks but angrily denied a published report that placed him in a casino
until 2:30 a.m.
	Jordan, meeting with a horde of reporters at the Bulls' suburban
Chicago practice facility, said he left the casino with a few friends
shortly after 11 p.m., was back in bed by 1 a.m. and threatened to sue
anyone that claimed differently.
	``My father had a leased limousine that went up to Atlantic City at
four o'clock. (I) gambled, played blackjack until about 11 o'clock, took
the limo back, went back to my room, got eight hours of sleep,'' said
Jordan, who added his limo was checked out to depart at 11:04 p.m. for
the 90-minute drive back to New York.
	``Now whoever saw me there at 1 o'clock, 2:30, whatever, I'd like to
see them in person because I certainly will lay a lawsuit on 'em. You
can ask the casinos. I wasn't there until 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock in the
morning.''
	The New York Times reported in its Thursday editions that Jordan was
seen by employees and patrons at the Bally's Grand Casino as late as
2:30 a.m. EDT, seven hours prior to the Bulls' morning shootaround
Tuesday and 18 hours prior to the game at Madison Square Garden.
	Radio stations in Atlantic City and Philadelphia also received
telephone calls from people who said they saw Jordan at the gaming
tables early Tuesday.
	Bulls Coach Phil Jackson said he saw nothing wrong with what Jordan
did and called the matter ``closed.''
	``I never gave it any credence in the first place,'' he said of the
report, ``so I'm not upset with him. I just thought that it was more
rumor and inuendo than it was fact, which is true.''
	The Bulls don't issue a curfew for their players while on the road,
and Jackson said there is no need for one.
	``These are adults; they're not children,'' he said.
	Jordan scored 36 points and grabbed nine rebounds in Chicago's 96-91
loss to the Knicks that gave New York a two games to none lead in the
best-of-seven series. He was 12 for 32 from the field and hit 11 of 13
free throws. Jordan was held to 11 points in the second half on 5 for 16
shooting and did not score over the final 2:46.
	Jordan said he went to Atlantic City to get away from New York,
especially since he could not golf, his other passion. He obviously was
angered by the expose of his private life.
	``If my life comes to the point where it's scrutinized what I do in
my free time, then there's no need to even talk to you guys,'' Jordan
said. ``If you're going to take it out of context and take it to an
extreme that's not fair to me...If you don't have true facts, you
shouldn't have any comments on the situation.''
	Jordan won his seventh straight NBA scoring title this season and
finished third in voting for the Most Valuable Player award, an honor he
won the previous two years. A three-time MVP, Jordan was called to the
league's New York offices last year amid reports he had written more
than $150,000 worth of checks that were used to pay golf and other
gambling debts in North Carolina. NBA officials took no action against
Jordan.

    Someone who claimed to have seen Jordan was on WFAN and said that
    Jordan had said he would be there until 11PM. Guy left the table at
    10:30, came back around midnight and Jordan and co. were nowhere to be
    seen.
    fwiw.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Tommy and one half of the Arizona Yip-Yip Squad -
    
    Still hate faux fans.  Knicks got em. So do the Suns.   No flip flop.
    
    Sorry boys.  
    
    JD

    103-83 Bulls. Knicks lead series 2-1.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    My worse fears, the po overachieving Knicks cain't keep up with the
    superstar talent of those Bulls' greyhounds.
    
    I only hope the po' Knicks can keep the Bulls from beating them even
    worse next game.
    
    The Bulls showed their multitalented array of superstars and attacked
    the lunch pail knicks at every turn.  I cain only hope that the blue 
    collar knicks can stave off the next Bull Run.  This game was like
    the streets of Pampolona, wif the po' Knicks trying to keep from
    getting gored.
    
    JD
    
    PS:  Tommy B. - so, what about the light show before the Bulls game? 
    ANd that mascot??   Pretty cheezy looking to me...

    
    Yes, those po', po' Knicks, who only had the best record in the league,
    home court advantage and the officiating bias that comes with it, will
    certainly cause many a tear of joy and admiration to flow if they can
    somehow manage to stave off da Bulls.  What inspiration...
    
    glenn
    

> Yes, those po', po' Knicks, who only had the best record in the league

Better not let Mike H see this :-)

I listened to game 4 on radio. After a particularly bad call in the 3rd
one of the announcers said that Chicago is getting all the calls, including
some very bad ones. Bulls played a heck of a game but having twice as many
foul shots is a bit much.

The Crazy Met

    I saw it TCM.  Under an eastern mindset, inaccurate comments like that
    are to be expected.
    
    Did you listen to the NBA radio broadcast with Bob Lanier doing color? 
    I've never heard a more biased tandem on a national broadcast.  They're
    so pro-New York it's embarassing to the network.

First time I listened to that feed so I have no idea about their biases.

There was one erally bad call, others I don't know about. As I said,  Bulls
played a heck of a game, so the calls are not an excuse for the Knicks losing.

The Crazy Met

    How can the team with the second best record in the NBA be called
    overachievers?

    
    I meant best record in the conference.  Pardon me for forgetting that 
    unlike with baseball (for maybe one more year), in the marketing-driven 
    sports leagues there is no place for separate identities between the
    conferences, even in name.  Either way, it doesn't affect my original 
    claim that, what with possessing the home-court advantage over the 
    mighty Bulls and all, the Knicks are really up against it.  How do they 
    maintain any hope at all?
    
    glenn
      

	Hey JD, travel back in time with me circa 1990 when you said that 
any team with the home court/ice for a series that loses said series should 
be labelled "chokers".  You remember saying that?  Or does that rule only 
apply to Boston teams?  If the Knickerbockers lose this series, with all 
the talent they have (they were Bob Ryan's preseason pick to win it all), I 
will henceforth refer to them as the Knickerchokers (and rightfully so).
Now quit your nambypamby MrT/ACChris poormouthin', belly up to the bar and 
face this Eastern Conference Championship Series like a main!  Despite all 
our differences at least TCM can handle his team in the role of a favorite 
without resorting to the "FauxLunchPail Syndrome" excuses.

			   	/Don

    Re: NBA radio announcers
    
    I agree that they are very pro-NY.  I heard them last week and thought
    that I was listening to a NY station.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

Knicks have a chance in this series because they have 4 games at home.
With home court advantage Knicks-Bulls is a toss up. If Bulls had
home court, Knicks would not win the series. Been saying that for 6 months
and have seen nothing to lead me to believe otherwise.

The Crazy Met

>Knicks have a chance in this series because they have 4 games at home.
>With home court advantage Knicks-Bulls is a toss up. If Bulls had
>home court, Knicks would not win the series. Been saying that for 6 months
>and have seen nothing to lead me to believe otherwise.

 you're not looking hard enough then.....

 <<< Note 53.236 by CNTROL::CHILDS "Do Not Enter - Sanitization in Process" >>>
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mike,

I hope when you disposed of your old p-name, you called the Hazardous
Materials squad for proper disposal.  And of course it goes without
saying that you marked it as a Biological Hazard...


'Saw

re: .239

That p_name did look good on him.

The Crazy Met

    
      Gee MikeH, after reviewing 53.190 and 53.191 I realize why you hung
      that wizard tag on me.

Yeah Tommy 'ya really went out on a limb there. The shock would have been
if the Knicks had won either game 3 or 4 in Chicago.

The Crazy Met

 
    >> Yeah Tommy 'ya really went out on a limb there. 
    
       Never said that I went out on a limb. I was trying to impart
       some smarts into Mikey's granite head. Don't worry I'll get to 
       your granite head next.
    
    >> The shock would have been if the Knicks had won either game 3 or 
    >> 4 in Chicago.
    
       Why would it be a "shock" if a team that's up 2-0 manages to
       win one of two on the road? Man, 'twixt you and JD, you New
       Yorkers are taking sandbagging to another level.

Are you really saying that the Knicks winning one of the games in Chicago
would not surprise you??

The Crazy Met

  >> Are you really saying that the Knicks winning one of the games 
  >> in Chicago would not surprise you??

     Yes (man, you're sharp!). It wouldn't have. We're not talking about 
     Halley's Comet making an unscheduled appearance here. The Knicks
     were up 2-0 going into Chicago with Chicago and Jordan looking very 
     vulnerable. I don't see why it was inconceivable for the Knicks to
     take one of the two. In retrospect, that whole flap over Jordan going
     to Atlantic City may have been the worst thing that could have happened
     to the Knicks. It may have given Jordan and the Bulls a rallying point
     and a point of focus.
    

The game that I thought the Knicks might win in Chicago is game 6. No
way were the Bulls going to go in 4 or 5 unless they had serious injury
problems.

The Crazy Met

    If Knicks fans are saying that they don't believe that their team can
    win even one game on the road against their best competition, then why
    don't we just get it writing: the Knicks aren't the best team even if
    they do win, and if they do win it's only because of the other team's
    regular-season underachievement.  In other words, Asterisk City.
    
    glenn
    

The whole point of the regular season is to get HCA. fwiw the best team
does not always win the championship, there are plenty of examples of
that; and 'ya know what if the Knicks do win the chamionship you can 
restate .248 as many times as you want and won't change things a bit.

The Crazy Met
 

If the Knicks had taken care of the backboards in Chicago they way they
did in NY they would have easily won in Chicago. As Tommy said Riley's
hype machine backfired! Hip Hip Hooray....I really don't care at this
point who wins the series, I just want it to go 7 games cause the finals
will definately be anti-climatic at this point..........

mike

    
> and 'ya know what if the Knicks do win the chamionship you can 
> restate .248 as many times as you want and won't change things a bit.
  
    But what if they don't?
    
    glenn
        

Uh why would it change anything if they don't??

The Crazy Met

    
> Uh why would it change anything if they don't??
    
    I sense that we're going to be subjected to a certain, uh, cockiness if
    the Knicks win (which is not an unlikely result, not at all), but if
    they lose, poor-mouthing will rule the day.  Unlike when, say, a certain
    team or two from Pittsburgh go down in flames...
    
    glenn
    

    Slash 
    
    Of course, if the Knicks lose, it will be a choke job.  Show me where I
    said otherwise.  However, I do think the Bulls have the better players 
    than the KNicks, but that Riley has molded them into a team.
    
    Having some fun.  
    
    And while I still like hoops, NBAfantastik ball is starting to wear
    very thin on me.  College ain't much better.  It's like watching a
    feudal society on the court.  Royalty treated one way, the serfs
    another.
    
    And Po' Mikey H.  Eastern Bias.  This from a guy from some podunk town
    in Massachusetts who, when the Celtics were good, was one of their
    biggest, most biased fans.  Of course, with changing fortunes, the vane
    has shifted.
    
    JD

    
      >> Of course, if the Knicks lose, it will be a choke job. Show 
      >> me where I said otherwise. 
    
       From these quotes I'd say you were doing quite the opposite of
      saying the Knicks would earn the choke label if they won. You tried
      to give the impression that they'd be accomplishing a feat on the
      scale of Emmanuel Lewis beating Mike Tyson's butt if they were to
      win. I think you're just changing your tune now because you ran out 
      of similes and metaphors. Or maybe you're just jumping off the band-
      wagon. And so soon after you jumped on, too!


      "I can't believe the job the poor undermanned Knicks are doing 
       against the Bulls."
       
      "Oh what overachievement."
    
      "This team is more like the Bluecoats in Valley Forge, trying to 
       survive against hte better armed and equipped redcoats from Chicago.  
       An inspiration for all."
        
      "Nope, this team is like the Yanks at Bastogne. Surrounded by superior
       firepower and numbers, but just says "Nuts" to anyone who suggests
       quitting."

      "This team is like the little engine that could, big in heart, short on 
       talent."

       [anybody else sense a pattern developing here?]


      "To be up 2-0 doesn't mean a thing.  I await the NBA mandate to the 
       refs to turn the series in CHicago's favour."
    
      "Nope, like Custer at the Little Big Horn, the Knicks are in hostile
       territory and are just one gimpy knee away from a lottery pick."
        
      "My worse fears, the po overachieving Knicks cain't keep up with the
       superstar talent of those Bulls' greyhounds."
    
      "I cain only hope that the blue collar knicks can stave off the next 
       Bull Run.  This game was like the streets of Pampolona, wif the po' 
       Knicks trying to keep from getting gored."
         

      >> It's like watching a feudal society on the court.  Royalty 
      >> treated one way, the serfs another.
    
         I don't think this was ever more evident than last night when the 
         refs let Barkley play the proverbial bull in the china closet be-
         cause "that's his style". Ain't no way any of the Sonics get away
         with any of those tactics.
    

    	Riley's at it again.  You got to love him using words like
    "injustice" and saying how the Knicks will triumps against all odds. 
    All that's missing is the theme song from "An Officer And A Genltmen"
    or "Rocky" playing in the background.  Has the New York Post contacted
    the Vatican yet about Pat's impending sainthood?
    
    				/Don

    
    He and JD must have been talking 8^)

Pat Riley is to sincerity 
what MairB is to the English language

Glenn, comparing the Knicks this season to the Pens is absurd. Pens were
far and away the favorite to win the Stanley Cup; no other team was thought
to even have a real chance against them.  Knicks are a good team, certainly
capable of winning it all, but the Bulls and Suns were still favored over
them when the playoffs began.

Anyone have the odds on the Bulls-Knicks series and for who will 
be the eventual champion?

The Crazy Met

> Glenn, comparing the Knicks this season to the Pens is absurd. Pens were
> far and away the favorite to win the Stanley Cup; no other team was thought
> to even have a real chance against them.  Knicks are a good team, certainly
> capable of winning it all, but the Bulls and Suns were still favored over
> them when the playoffs began.
    
    I made no such comparison.  My point was that excessive gloating was to
    be expected and was faithfully delivered when a couple of Pittsburgh
    teams bit the dust.  I see the Knicks in a similar light.  I think they
    should be expected to win it all, even by-- gasp!-- Knicks' fans
    themselves.
    
    glenn
    

Ok, gotcha.  If the Knicks had 8th best record in the conference people
in here would have gloated when they lost; so no surprise there.


re: expecting to win it all: As a fan I want my teams to win it all;
however, expecting that to happen even when the team is not a real
contender is foolish. Hoping for it to happen is different. I certainly
hope the Knicks win it all, and yes they have a decent chance at it.
But Chicago has to be at least a co-favorite to win.

The Crazy Met

>>re: expecting to win it all: As a fan I want my teams to win it all;
>>however, expecting that to happen even when the team is not a real
>>contender is foolish.
	       ^^^^^^^

	Kinda like the p-name, eh.


	billl

Knicks have home court advantage in the east...It's the biggest factor in
basketball. The Knicks should win the east. 

The east is soooosuperior over the west that whomever wins the east should walk
all over the west so the knicks should be favored to win the whole thing...

Knicks are the favorites..like it or not...



Metz

Favorite in your mind Metz. Knicks having home court puts them and the Bulls
on an even footing for this series.

The Crazy Met

> Favorite in your mind Metz. Knicks having home court puts them and the Bulls
> on an even footing for this series.
    
    Again, your poor-mouthing, TCM.  The Knicks have the home-court
    advantage because they performed *better* than the Bulls over the
    entire season.  They weren't given home-court advantage because they
    are a worse team and someone wanted to even things up.
    
    glenn
    

Glenn,

I'm not saying anything different than all season long. Bulls played much too
non0chalantly at times during the regular season and that cost them the
HCA for this series. Knicks did perform better over the regular season, but
in the playoffs teams take all their games seriously. If Chicago played 
with intensity all season long I think they would have had HCA throughout
the playoffs.

The Crazy Met

What are the odds today?? Anyone have the line??

The Crazy Met

If,If,If, Crazy Cub...The facts are that the Knicks won the homecourt advantage
over the bulls by being the better team over the course of the regular season.

This makes them the favorite to win the East and because of proven eastern 
superiority the favorites to win the whole thing.

No poor mouthing from you or JD is going to change that.


Metz

Metz, the title you gave .271 perfectly describes the situation. Those
of us who follow the Knicks have a better handle on reality than the fans
that come out of the woodwork when they do well.

Knicks losing this series would be lousy but not devastating. To the Bulls
it would be a more devastating loss - sure for a number of reasons, one 
of the reasons being that overall they are a slightly better team than the
Knicks.

The Crazy Met

You're still missing the point Crazy,

The Knicks proved that they are a slightly better team over the course of
the regular season. You can poor mouth their talent and say that the Bulls
were nonchalant during the regular season all you want but the facts show
that the knicks were a better team...It's why they have Home court advantage 
during the playoffs and why they should be even more favored over the Bulls 
than had they played on a neutral site.


Metz

    Knicks up 1 at the half...

    
    
           Knicks lose Knicks lose Knoicks lose.
    
    Can you say 3_peat???
    
    
         Phoenix/Seattle will be a cinch for Da Bulls.
    
    Chappy

    Jordan actually got called for palming on 3 separate occassions.  Proof
    positive that the officiating is a total joke and the NBA is trying to 
    make this a 7 game series.  NY refused to accept last night's gift as 
    they hit only slightly better than 50% from the line.
    
    					Steve
    
    					

	Watching the last four and a half minutes of this game reminded
	me why I've got no use what so ever for professional basketball.

	o  Jordan lowers his shoulder into Rivers and bowls him over - Knick foul
	o  Cartwright's fingernail musta touched Ewing's wristband -- Bull foul
	o  His Airness does his Michael Jackson impersonation "moonwalking" --
								    no call
	o  If what happened under the hoop at the Knicks end happened on the
	   streets -- six people would have been arrested for assault.


	What a joke!


	billl

 You knew it was in the can for the Bulls when Mr. Bill knocked the ball
 out of Pat's hands and then out hustled him to the loose ball. What a
 difference a news story makes.....

 mike

    
    Lasted(tm) night's game was the firsted time I'd even attempted to
    watch a NBA game thisted year since I'm in agreement with BillL, I'ev
    got no use for it.
    
    If that game wasn't predestined, I don't know anything about being
    short!  A total farce of the game of basketball, officiating and the
    playoffs.  I really, really thought that a streetgang fight was being
    conducted and the police (except for an occasional visit by Helen
    Keller, disguised as a Keystone Kop) were no where to be found.
    
    Thuggery, assault, battery - it was everything a repeat criminal would
    want!
    
    I remain,
    willing to travel to a CYO game to see some TRUE basketball!
    Kev
    

    
    >	o  If what happened under the hoop at the Knicks end happened on the
    >	   streets -- six people would have been arrested for assault.
    
    I have to disagree with this last point.  I've seen the replay of the 
    entire sequence several times, and I think that each of the blocks were
    clean, or clean enough that that's the way they should be called,
    consistently.  In spite of the wild flurry of action underneath, there 
    was no body contact, and only Pippen came down hard once-- and it 
    looked like he had 90% ball.
    
    TCM, I still think that you're sandbagging and a loss like last night's
    is devastating if the Knicks don't recover.  You say you've followed
    the Knicks all year long so surely you were aware that NY had only lost 
    4 games in MSG all year and had beaten the Bulls there six straight.  And
    last night the home court advantage was certainly offered up for the
    taking-- in the last five minutes the Bulls' rebounding advantage was
    completely removed with the automatic assumed push-off foul on any 
    offensive rebound-- witness Mr. Bill's exit because he had the 
    misfortune of getting bounced around in the paint by Patrick in the 
    vicinity of a long rebound.  But the Knicks missed 15 foul shots, and
    that was completely their own undoing, and nothing the Bulls did to
    stop them.  Even Pat Riley stopped his crying and was humble in defeat,
    lying the responsibility at the feet of his own team for their problems
    on the boards and at the foul line.
    
    However, I look for the Bulls' homecourt officiating advantage in Game
    6 to be mitigated because they're now up, and, consciously or 
    unconsciously, the refs know that.  This thing is still far from over.
    
    glenn
    

    re .255
    
    Tommy -
    
    I thought you would recognize funning.  But you must admit the Knicks
    don't have as many purely talented individuals as the Bulls, but are
    deeper.  For someone who notes like you do, I expected better.  Oh
    well, guess how it is with you yokels from them podunt towns [isfh]
    
    
    To all:
    
    On last nights game:  Any team that chokes away that many foul shots
    doesn't deserve to win anything.  Knicks have noone to blame but
    themselves.  The achilles heel of no consistent outside shooting does
    them in again.  Jordan was Jordan.  Ewing was Ewing.
    
    JD

    
    Glenn -
    
    You hit the nail on the haid with that note.  To distance myself from
    TCM.  Knicks had home court advantage.  Favs in series.  I dont' think
    there's as big a difference between teh Bulls adn Knicks as say, the
    Suns and Sonics, but Knicks had it there to win.
    
    Its gut check time.
    
    JD
    
    Re Bill And Kev -
    
    Yeah, watching Hoops has become a drag over the last few years.  Last
    night Ewing flings Williams to floor, no foul.  Next sequence, Rivers
    hand checks Jordan, foul.
    
    How many folks watch a game and *KNOW* when a foul will be called.  I
    can call most of them before they happen.  I know if a Scottie Pippen
    drives against a Anthony Mason, that 9 times out of ten the whistle
    will blow.
    
    What about the 'charge' into Jorday when he got kneed?  Lets see, Mikey
    was not only MOVING, but he was IN the AIR!  How can that be charging?
    
    Anyway, you can pick out a million of them.  Look at the stars "The
    one's who have earned the Refs respect", and you know they will get the
    calls no matter what.
    
    No doubt in my mind that if at the end of the game that was Ewing and
    not Charles Smith, that the whistle would have blown.
    
    But like I said, you miss free throws, you can only kick yerself.
    
    JD

	This Knick fan knows that if Smith had gone to the line, he would
have only hit one, and we would have had OT.  Rivers, the veteran, should
have shot all the technicals, as it was clear Starks was still in a funk
over the game 4 Mikey show.  The knock against Smith is that he has a soft
game, and it was proved at the end.  Oakley was hurt and not in the game.
Had he been, he would have forced a call or gotten a basket, or both.
Oakley may miss the next game with a hand injury.

	Jim M.

      The calls a very inconsistent!  The Bulls get 3 illegal defenses and
    after the 3rd one,  the knicks were doing the same,  but no call.
    
      I do agree that the pushing and shoving in the east is old.  It
    doesn't show how good they are,  but how they have to resort to those
    methods to acheive what they want.  The west does some of this
    obviously, but not to the extent that the east does.
    
      This is partly why the east has been winning the rings the past few
    years.  The east teams don't do it on talent alone.
    
      I think it will be a "cleaner" finals if it was the sonic/bulls.  Of
    course who knows when it comes to the media hyping the east style being
    more manly so-to-speak.  Thus causing the west team to play street
    ball.
    
      JMO,
    
      Tim 

Actually Bulls got called for illegal defense 4 times.

You all beat me to the punch. Knicks have no one to blame but themselves for 
last nights loss. Missing 15 out of 34 foul shots is completely inexcusable.
There might have been a foul in the last sequence but all the blocks looked
fairly clean. Too bad Smith was trying yo score, Ewing or Oakley probably shove
the ball down Pippen's throat and get the foul as well.

Game 6 tomorrow night. For the Knicks to win it will take a minor miracle.

re: HCA

Yup I know the Knicks were 37-4 at home this year.

The Crazy Met

    	Moan all you want about the officiating, but I still think last
    night's game was pretty good entertainment.  Smith didn't take the ball
    strong to the basket.  It almost looked like he wanted to draw a foul.
    If I'm a Knickerbocker fan he's the last guy I want under the basket
    with the game on the line.  Still don't think the series is over
    either.
    
    				/Don

    I guess I feel sorry for those who either don't understand the
    game or don't want to.  Last night's game had as much drama as
    any play on Broadway, with a larger cast and an unpredictable
    ending.  I suppose you can believe that Michael would score 17
    straight points for his team, but Patrick hitting a 3-pointer?
    Starks not scoring in the second half?  The Knicks missing all
    those free throws?  Four blocks on four shot attempts?
    
    This was tremendous entertainment - I sorry Kev and Billl didn't
    enjoy it.  If you can't enjoy this, go back to the Red Sox for
    some real excitement.
    
    NAZZ

    Great game,  but that was no less than a mugging at the end.
    It kinda reminded me of the Rodney King beating.
    
    
    gregg

    
    Nazz,
    
    I like basketball.  I can appreciate the athletic talents of the NBA
    players and the incredible skill they have.
    
    I can't stand the way the game is played, with total disregard of the
    rules of the game and the inconsistency.  You've said a gazillion times
    that consistency in reffing (or was it Goose who said it?) is
    paramount.
    
    Patrick's 3 pointer was a suprise.  It doubled his 3 point total for
    the year donchaknow?  His Airness is *the* go-to guy so the 17 straight
    points wasn't a big suprise.
    
    It was the calls/nocalls......
    
    I remain,
    thinking I know a bit about the GAME as it was intended, 
    Kev
    ;^)
    

    
>    I guess I feel sorry for those who either don't understand the
>    game or don't want to.
    
    I could say the same about baseball, which is still basically the same
    game it was when our forefathers adopted "good ol' country hardball" as
    the national pastime.  Unfortunately, NBA-style marketing perversions
    are steadily creeping into baseball, too.
    
    I enjoyed last night's game very much, as far as basketball games go.  
    Based on the general SPROTS' consensus, pro basketball gets beat up so
    much that it's probably underrated, while college basketball is so
    gushingly romanticized that it's probably overrated.  I see a lot of 
    the same garbage with the defenses and officiating in the college game, 
    where it's not even as "necessary" (if they didn't rough it up a bit in
    the pros, where the players are so talented, the games would be non-stop
    above-the-rim pinball-machine scoring exhibitions...)
    
    glenn
    

Despite the fact that the Knicks lost last nights game was very
enjoyable. Mini-runs by both teams at times, but no team ever led
by more than 8. Good defense, some surprises, close to the end.

Fouls shooting by bothe teams was really disappointing, but otherwise
a very good game.

The Crazy Met

      Yes and no on the his Air's 17 straight points.  No its not a
    suprise under normal Jordan days,  but he hit something like 4-14
    before that streak,  and he hasn't been shooting hi % in this series
    (except for maybe game 4). So yes I was somewhat suprised based on
    that.
    
      I did enjoy the game regardless of the refs.  If one dwells on ref
    calls,  then why watch?
    
      Tim

The bulls would have won by more if Jordan had let his teammates play. 

yeah, I realize that he's the best b-ball player on the planet but the Bull
offense consisted of Jordan 1-1 or 1-2 and getting to the foul line when he
missed a shot for much of the 4th quarter. The Bulls are a great team to watch
when they pass (like Jordan's pass to BJ) and run but a boring team when they
degenerate into Jordan vs. the world. 

I'd like to see NY take the next game and have it go to 7. 

Sure the refs were as inconsistant as hell last night but it's expected. I'd
really like to see the rim go up another foot.

As has been said...the Knicks died on the free throw line and missing the T's
was a dagger into their hearts.


Metz

	Nazz,

	Don't feel sorry for me.  I wasn't lookin' fer yer pity.  I just
	happen to think there are more entertaining sporting events than
	pro basketball (and pro baseball fer that matter).  Every now
	and then I tune into an NBA game just to see if things have changed
	at all.  The other night was one of those instances.


	billl

    I agree with bill g, I don't think most fans actually know the
    difference between a charge and a blocking foul.

    I think the goose was the only one who did know the difference!!!
    
    I enjoy both college and pro ball, but the level of execution at
    the pro level is so superior, the talent level of the athletes so
    high, the multitude of skills are just a joy for me to watch.
    
    In addition, there is much more to coaching at the pro level, and how
    teams make adjustments both at time outs and during the flow of the
    game reminds me of a high level chess match, but played at fast
    forward.  When to double team, when to push the ball, do I reverse this
    layup, should I take the charge, do I switch with the pick or fight
    through it, and countless other decisions must be made on practically
    every possession.  
    
    Usually, those teams that think the best and have coaches and players
    who can adjust on the fly win.  That's why the Celtics won so many games 
    in a different era, and why Detroit won with a guy like Daly in charge
    and why the Lakers won in the 80s and Chicago is winning now.  Not only 
    was the coach smart, but the team was smart.
    
    Very few college teams have that polished brand of basketball
    sophistication that allows them to play at a consistently high level.
    The Chris Webber and Freddie Brown bonehead plays simply do not happen 
    in the pros.  College basketball is fun, but it simply doesn't match
    up.
    
    As for baseball, don't get me started!
    
    NAZZ

      >> The Chris Webber and Freddie Brown bonehead plays simply do 
      >> not happen in the pros.  
    
         What about all-star Scottie Pippen trying to hit the ref with a
         real sweet pass for the open jumper the other night?
    
     >> College basketball is fun, but it simply doesn't match up.
    
        I don't even watch pro basketball until the playoffs. The regular
        season has all of the drama of a Midas commercial. In college basket-
        what with rivalries, battle for tournament berths, etc. just about
        every game is significant. Not to mention the enthusiasm of the
        players and fans. There's no comparison, IMO.

    I think the difference between blocking and charging is as complex a
    mystery as the salary cap formula.  Maybe we should ask Jan Volk.

    re charge vs foul.
    
    	NBA refs amazingly are very skilled at not only this but (I'm
    serious), traveling, palming, grabbing etc).  But what makes them worth
    their salary and made their last strike successful is their craft at
    when to ignore these violations and in real time take a contact
    situation and say, 
    
    	Is one of players in endangered species list (ie the dream team)
    
    	What is current foul count of home vs away team; what is make up
    tally?
    	Do I have a grudge or does one of my buddies have a grudge against
    one of these guys?
    	Is either guy on commissioners hit list or supervisors hit list (eg
    Daryl Dawkins)
    	
    In an instant whistle is blown, winks are flashed and game goes on
    
    And all time Master was a college ref - Charly Deal

      >>  NBA refs amazingly are very skilled at not only this but (I'm
      >>  serious), traveling, palming, grabbing etc). 
     
      You can't be serious.

     IMNSHO then MJ should be called *EVERYTIME* he touches the ball. Watch
    him the next time he goes one on one....He is able to dribble the ball
    and have it come up into his hand(nothing wrong with that) but then
    once it is in his hand he holds it while the ball is still facing down
    toward the floor until he gets his feet into position to whirl around
    the defender. It's almost as if he had glue on his hands.  You or I 
    cannot do this cause our hands are too small but he is able to grab that 
    ball on its way up from the dribble and hold it as long as necessary to 
    make his move. This is traveling, palming all in one. Then he jumps, 
    lands then jumps again. More traveling. 

    He has taken palming and made it into an art. Until they make the ball
    bigger this kind of crap will continue to go on. However, it is nice to
    watch but still illegal and should be called.

    Ben

    That is NOT illegal.  IT's a misconception that many of us carry
    with us from our old HS days when our coaches would warn us against
    palming the ball.  But according to the rules, palming only occurs when
    you lose control of the ball.  A discontinued dribble can be called if
    you hold the ball too long between dribbles, like when Michael drives
    the lane and cups it for three steps before he dribbles again, and the
    ref determines that the ball has come to rest and is not being dribbled.  
    Here is the passage from the NBA Rule Book, Rule 4, Section III:
    
    "The dribble ends when the dribbler:
     	1) Touches the ball simultaneously with both hands.
    	2) Permits the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it.
    	3) Tries for a field goal.
    	4) Throws a pass.
	5) Touches the ball more than once while dribbling, before it
    		touches the floor.
    	6) Loses control.
    	7) Allows the ball to become dead."
    
    NAZZ
    
    

    BACH from my honeymoon and have one thing to say...

    "I like Mike"

    Michael Jordan is a basketball god, and Scottie Pippilongface shut a 
    few mouths of a few detractors as well...

    God bless the Chicago Bulls...

    Chip_GSH_Bach

    No access for a few days.  ANyway, >Congrats to da Bulls. Better team
    won.  Knicks choked.  Again, you caint hit foul shots, you don't
    deserve to win.
    
    As Jordan said, the BUlls would expose the KNicks weakness - which was
    that they had a good coach, one superstar, and a bunch of inconsistent
    players.   And Starks/Oakley/Smith, et al showed that inconsistency.
    
    Down the stretch, the KNicks had one guy to go to, the Bulls two.
    
    I hope the Knicks get someone who can drain the outside shot
    consistenty..
    
    
    Finals is a dilema, if I watch any of it.  I dislike Pippen and
    Carwright and Phil The Hacker Turned Whiner Jackson.   Before this
    year, it would be no problem rooting for Charles.  I was a Barkley fan
    before it was fashionable.  You can check the archives on that one
    folks.  But some of these noveau Chuck fains, especially the vaners,
    make it difficult to root fer da Suns.
    
    JD

    Mr. Brooks and I got our wish.  Good luck to ya MAir!

    Im glad I was out for a week and a half and didnt get tampted to reply
    to some of the notes in hear from viewers who obviously have braille
    keyboards :-)
    
    NAZZ Thank you for the clairifaication on what travelling is, so MJ's
    dribbling habits are boarderline to traveling and as we just seen VS
    NY, if he travels he too gets called for it.
    
    Charge vS Block, I remeber the play that jordan got called for and I
    guess I need clairification on the rules.  If jordan moves backwards
    moving away from the CHARGE is this now a blocking foul.  I thought
    there was something saying if a Defender is attempting to get in the
    path of the Offensive player its a blocking foul ???? If a player who
    has position attempts to get out of someone's way or brace himself
    against a charge does this then become a blocking foul becuase the
    Defender is moving ??????
    
    
    This will now be a great Finals, I loved Ewing's coments, "I think were
    better the the bulls".  They didnt lose due to bad calls, poor
    officiating or poor coaching, you cant coach free throws.  I dont know
    if the bulls were taunting the Knicks somehow or if they got in there 
    heads but the Knicks lost the games on the Gimme strip.  Game 6 I think
    the bulls were 27-29, and the knicks were 17-25, so again if the Knicks
    didnt choke on the gimme strip they would have taken the series.
    
    Of course jordan shot like crap the who series allowing most games to
    stay close.  Even in game 6 I think jordan was the only bull to shoot
    under 50%, I dont care if the bench players only score 10pts combined
    if they can all shoot over 50%.
    
    I have my chair all set for wednesday night...

Congrats Brroks,

But this is at least 2 of the last 3 years you've 'disappeared' until
the Bulls pull out a series.  Hmmmmmmm.....

And in the charge, Micheal was A> Moving to his left, and B> both
feet were off the ground.  How can someone be stationary and in
position for a 'charge' when they are airborne and moving?

Easy,  It was Air Nathan Detriot Mikey.

JD

    The way I see it:
    
    Starters                    Edge
    ---------------------------------
    Cartwright  C   West     -  even
    Grant       F   Barkley  -  Suns
    Pippen      F   Dumas    -  Bulls
    Armstrong   G   KJ       -  Suns
    Jordan      G   Majerle  -  Bulls
    
    The bench is where things get interesting.  I think the Suns depth is
    better overall.  It appears the Bulls have only been using Williams,
    King, Paxson, and Tucker (although rarely) off the bench.  Obviously
    the last 2 are guards.  Do Williams and King rotate at center and
    forward in their sub patterns?
    
    The Suns will bring mostly Miller, Ainge, Chambers, and FJ off the
    bench.  Mustaf might see time against Williams and/or King since
    Ceballos is out.  The remaining player, Negele Knight should only see
    minutes in garbage time.
    
    Mike

    
    This years finals is a series that I wish no one would win; but seeing
    that that is impossible I'll enjoy the games and not worry about the
    winner. Even if the Knicks were not the Bulls opposition in the
    conference finals I probably would have rooted for the other team
    (excepting the Celtics, of course). The thought of more hoopla over
    Jordan, etc for another year is almost too much to bear.
    Then again if the Suns win this conference will be even more
    insufferable than after UNC won the NCAA tournament.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Hey, at least the folks with "braille" keyboards were in here noting
and not out hiding.

And as to having "braille" keyboards, they just don't view the game from
behind Mikey is GOD, Chicago does no wrong eyeglasses....


hth,
'Saw

>And as to having "braille" keyboards, they just don't view the game from
>behind Mikey is GOD, Chicago does no wrong eyeglasses....


 but Saw he is GawD on the court. The last series proved so. Knicks had the
 stronger frontline, more depth, better coach yet Mikey took his band of
 misfits on to the next round again....

 I'm guessing game 3 in chicago when Chuckles get his walking papers....
 it's obvious he'll blow his cork in the pressure of the finals...

 mike

    
    >> NAZZ Thank you for the clairifaication on what travelling is, 
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    >> guess I need clairification on the rules.  
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
       Keep whittlin' that word down, M_Air! You'll get her right! Maybe.

Chuckles has already blown his cork twice in the western finals, slamming the
ball into the court. The refs (after a quick phone conference with the CIA,
Secret service and Commish Stern) decided that he was simply misunderstood
and awarded the Suns 5 free throws.

Both teams have already signed with Oliver Stone to do a conspiracy movie in
case they lose.


Metz

    
   >> The way I see it:
    
   >> Starters                    Edge
   >> ---------------------------------
   >> Cartwright  C   West     -  even
   >> Grant       F   Barkley  -  Suns
   >> Pippen      F   Dumas    -  Bulls
   >> Armstrong   G   KJ       -  Suns
   >> Jordan      G   Majerle  -  Bulls
    
      These kinds of comparisons are virtually meaningless because the
      matchups that favor the Bulls favor them by a huge, HUGE, H U G E
      margin. Jordan vs. Disappearin' Dan? Ha! That one don't just favor
      the Bulls, it oughta be illegal! And Pippen vs. Dumas? Welcome to
      the bigtime, Lollipop! You're about to get the 'Exorcist treatment'.
      Your head's gonna be a spinnin' like Linda Blair with an uninvited
      house guest. It ain't gonna be pretty. The most the Suns can hope for
      is that the Bulls will have a letdown like last year when they let 
      the Blazers steal a couple.
          

I can't wait to see the first time KJ  drives the lane and Mr Bill greets 
him with a forearm shiver. 

As far as I can see the Suns have 3 of the 5 on the NBA all-whine team this
year..

Barkley,KJ and St. Danny of Ainge...

Other members would have to be Karl Malone and Larry Johnson...

1st place all-time NBA whiner goes to Magic Johnson with Bill walton a close
2nd...


Metz

    
    
            The Suns flat out don't match up with the Bulls. Picture this
    Mikey drives down the lane right past Blunder Dan, West tries to move
    into the lane to help out along with Barkley leaving Scottie to get the
    layoff pass 2 pts.
    
          This series will not go more than 5. It's 2-3-2 so Chicago will
    split with Phoenix in Phoenix( see Lakers, see Seattle) than Chicago
    will win 3 straight at home.
    
          Maybe next year Chuck!
                    Or not!
    
    Chappy

    I wouldn't  call the match at center even either.  I don't know anyone
    who would take West over Cartwright.  I think only the 2-3-2 format is
    going to allow the SUns to extend the Series to 6.  If it was
    2-2-1-1-1, I'd say Bulls in 5.
    
    brews

    re: .316
    
    Metz I am disappointed in you. All along I thought you were an 
    Objective SportsAnalyst(tm) and you leave out the whiner of whiners
    from your list of all time greats - Kevin McHale.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
     re .319
    
     Can't none of 'em hold a candle to Rick Barry when it comes to 
     whining.  

    Ol' Kareem could lament well also. Same wif da Dobber and Doug Collins.
    
    Go Bulls,
    MikeL
    

re: .313

Glad I read that after working hours, so none of my co-workers could 
hear me laughing.

      Bulls in 6.
    
      Tim

    Bulls in 5; they'll win one in Phoenix and then take the next 3 in
    Chicago. Series is 2-3-2 format.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

     Phoenix in for

    With the 2 best road teams (Phoenix was #1) in the finals, I can't see
    either team sweeping at home.

one tough series to figure out. Chuckles' star index is risin hot and high
especially with puff and fluff (aka magic and enberg) glorifin' him at
every turn. I remember a time not too long ago that you could walk down
any street in N.E. and not see any "Suns" paraphenlia, yet this year it's
2nd on the disgusting list to the Cowboy trash that has been troting about.
Could be a changing of the guard here, Nike sure can't loose...But wait
Ronald cries out no way can Chuckles hawk Big Macs so IWANNABELIKE and
Scooter Scotty's gang in 6......

mike

Actually, it boils down to:

   Which superstars get the calls.

For instance, will Thunderous Dan get whistled everytime he pinkies
Air Nathan Detroit Jordan, as was the case last series?

Will Dumas and Company get whistled everytime Through the Looking Glass
Scottie walks the lane?

Will anyone be allowed to touch Chuckles?  Will he be able to amazingly
climb the back of in position rebounders and not get called?

Which team will be the first to break the 50 foul shot for a game mark?

And if Tommy Little Chambers of Horrors covers Pippen or Grant, will
he hold them to under 30?

Finally, the series whines down to which coach can whine the most:

Westphall or the King of the Whiners, Phil "I used to be a big hack when
I played, but now I just Whine" Jackson?

And how many Nike commercials will there be?

JD

JD,

I think your analysis hit the nail on the head.


'Saw

I don't think the whining has had anything to do with the fortunes of 
either teams.  The inconsistancy of the ref's is a problem but in general,
the good/bad calls do even out... Sorry, JMHO.

Of course we could have instant replay... That would be a thrill.

    
    Anybody wanna lay odds on a pre-game smooch?
    

    Who is Nathan Detroit?

Nathan Detroit is one of the main characters in Guys and Dolls. He runs 
(I know I'll get the exact wording wrong) "the longest continuous permanent 
floating crap game in New York."

Part of the plot of the show is the police are cracking down, a big shot
from the Chicago mob is in town and wants to play craps. Nathan struggles
to find a place to play. In the meantime Sky Masterson has taken the "doll" 
from the Salvation Army to Havana,Cuba for dinner. The crap game ends up
being played at the Salvation Army headquarters. 

The Crazy Met

    And I was not no where to be found during the last series, My last day
    at work was on May 21st and I did not return until June 3rd.  Is it my
    fault that I returned on the following morning after the Knicks blew it
    big time.  And Normaly I would have been loggin in periodicaly to read
    mail (and notes).  But I just bought a house and was lucky to have the
    time to watch the games let alone log in and note.  Oh and about the
    last few years, I take a week off every May and spend time with my
    family instead of noting, in the future Ill make an attempt to note
    during my vacations :-)...
    
    On the charge, I had to review it again, jordan was already under the
    basket he turned to his left (NOT MOVED LEFT OF RIGHT JUST TUNRED HIS
    UPPER BODY) as the set of Knees where Coming into his CHEST (NOTE I
    SAID AS THEY WERE COMING IN as in before CONTACT).  Jordan (Being the
    wimp he is) Jumped back in an attempt to weaking the blow.  Im not a 
    ref so I dont know what the call should have been.. IF HIS FEEL BOTH 
    HAVE TO BE PLANTED AT CONTACT then yes a blocking call.  If he can be
    moving back attempting to get out of the way then its a charge, again
    I dont know the exact wording of the rule, and I dont even pretend to
    know english :-)
    
    At this point I have no schedule vacation, although after blowing my
    motor in my car on the way home last night I may have to take a day off
    to go car hunting.  But I will try and note after every bulls loss so
    other noters can have there brief gloating/hecklin periods.. :-)
    
    							MairB

    That okay MAir.  The Wolfpack makes exceptions too when their teams
    choke.

Ha Ha M_Air -

JOrdan was not set.  It was obvious.  But was I surprised.  OF course
not.  Face it, Jordan coulda used an Uzi on Starks and Starks would
be called for not producing a large enough 'THUD' when he hit the
floor.

And Mikey H - you cain look up where I said the Knicks choked.  And
its at least 2, if not all 3, of the last few years that Air has
disappeared when the chips are down.  At least you, and most others,
are here all the time - not just when the going is good...

JD

Mac -

First, I assumed everyone got the joke about the Knicks.

And the Air I meant was Air Brooks, not Air Nathan.

JD

Well Mac -

Its just time honoured SPORTS tradition.  Most of us will take the 
effort to come in and face things like real main.  Like me getting
to the DEC facility early to admit the Knicks monumental choke
job in Game 5 - instead of using the fack(TM) I was at a custoemr

site with NO access to decnet...

JD

  >> First, I assumed everyone got the joke about the Knicks.
    
     What joke? I missed it.

  >> Its just time honoured SPORTS tradition.  Most of us will take the 
  >> effort to come in and face things like real main.  
    
     I guess I'm some kind of a pansy because I'll be damned if I'm coming
     in here on a day off just to log into SPORTS.
    

Now Tommy -

Not on a day off, of course not.  But it seems all so convenient 
for the Air Brooksie to consistently not show up when the chips are
down, and then come back in full spouting glory when the Bulls win.

I assumed everyone knew I was pulling legs with the Valley Forge/Knicks
thang.  If not, then I think some folks may have banger their haids
against the wall once too often...

JD

    But the Bulls have been winning...

  >> I assumed everyone knew I was pulling legs with the Valley 
  >> Forge/Knicks thang. 

     I honestly didn't. I thought you really thought the Knicks were
     a "lunch pail", "outgunned" team or at least covering your butt
     should Chicago come back. Shows you how wrong I can be.
     
  >> If not, then I think some folks may have banger their haids
  >> against the wall once too often...

     Put me in this category, apparently. And one or two other folks I'm
     sure.
    
    

    JD give it a rest, if being on vacation, buying a house and moving are
    enough to not have time to be noting, would an open heart surgury be
    a good excuse.  You can go back the last few years and find where I
    dissappeared during the playoffs.  You can go back to the previous
    years and see where detroit knocked them out back to back years and
    I was in here (and the celts note) taking it like a Man.  And the bulls
    were down what 2 games, big deal.  They were never on the Brink of
    elimanation and if you or anyone else thought they were out of it just
    being down 2 games, the results showed how much you know about the
    bulls.  Other then ragging on other peoples teams, do you have a team
    you follow, most of your notes are next unseen so I may have missed
    1 or 2 important notes in the past 5 years (Other then raggin notes).
    
    The Bulls are the best team in Basketball, they have won 2 in a row and
    the where in the hunt 3 years previous to that.  They have a great
    chance of taking it all this year, and if Kukoc comes in next year they
    could take the east the next 2 or 3 years as well.  So I guess if you
    and I are still here Ill here you playing the same tune for the next 2
    or 3 seasons.  But I have a feeling once the bulls are no longer on top
    you and other's like you will spend your time ragging on someone else.
    But I'll still be here thru the bad times like the good times.
    
    One last thing, I dont know what you do for Dec but I usally try to get
    in the notes in the morning and at lunch (Lunchtime usally varies). 
    And I work nites so I cant go home and log back in either, so I dont
    have as much free time as you have to note all day :-)
    
    								MairB

    >> But it seems all so convenient for the Air Brooksie to consistently 
    >> not show up when the chips are down, and then come back in full 
    >> spouting glory when the Bulls win.

       Not to prolong this thoroughly fascinating string any longer than
       necessary BUT I went back and I don't see where M_Air was "spouting"
       at all. Compared to his defenses of Jordan's off-court activities,
       the note he entered after the Bulls knocked off the Knicks was
       pretty sedate. Then again compared to his defenses of Jordan's off-
       court activities the Rape Of Nanking was pretty sedate.

After .346 and nearly everything MikeH has written in note 36 I almost
wish the world ends and neither team wins.

The Crazy Met

    -1, Your right
    
    	Id like to appoligies to all the noters that come in this notes
    	file to read sport's related material and have to read all this
    	garbage in order to find any real notes.  I have once again been
    	baited and falling into this trap.  For all the bulls fans that
    	read this note, I will post updates on the games each morning,
    	that Im at work (I currently have no terminal at home) and keep
    	you updated on the series, this is mostly for you overseas fans
    	who dont get good press on the games.  
    
    	There's not really much to report today, for those who havent 
    	seen the draft order.  The bulls have there 1st round pick #25
    	over all and the 41st pick from Orlando (Ill try and find who/how
    	they got this pick Its slipped my mind).  Tony Kukoc WILL BE A BULL
    	next year (ALthough Im not sure if they have him sigend yet).
    
    Should be a great Finals, I cant wait, Heiser I WANT YOU :-).  I hope
    we get the good, clean, Fair series weve been hoping for.  
    
    							MaB

    TCM, glad to hear 36 is your favorite SPROTS topic!

Maybe M_Air next unseens JD's notes because he can't deal with good
grammar and correct spelling.  Or maybe JD's sense of humor is just a little
bit beyond him.

But of course, M_Air wants to be like Mikey.....


'Saw

    Michael Jordan is a basketball god...

    Chip_GSH_Bach

    .352
    
    wanna bet ?
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    Michael Jorden is a media god...Without it he's just be another bloak
    on the court.

    re: .354
    
    Yes and no. Jordan is far and above the best player in the NBA today.
    He probably was that a number of years ago when Bird and Johnson
    were still playing. Sure he gets more media attention than any other
    player, but some of that legitimately has to do with his play on the
    basketball court.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

     You mean his palming? Or maybe his traveling to get open? I don't
    think he was better than Bird or Magic. I guess I admire what those two
    guys did more than Jordy boy because they couldn't jump.

    While most players in the NBA do palm the ball Mikey is allowed to get
    blatently get away with it more than anyone else. Traveling too. Thats 
    why he scores so many points. If you touch him its a foul, more points. 
    Todays officiating has given him an open invitation to score and he is 
    allowed to break the rules to do it. Its what the fan(atics) want to 
    see after all...they don't want him to foul out. And now Pippen has
    learned how to do same and get away with it.
    
    So please excuse me if I don't agree with you.
    
    Ben
    

    Re: .356
    
    What you describe about Jordan can be said about any other NBA star.
    I watched just about every Celtics game while Bird was playing (I know, 
    get a life), and he was a master at drawing the foul, just as Jordan
    is.
    
    What makes Jordan better than Magic and Bird is the level of defense
    that he can play.
    
    					Steve 

      Your excused;^)
    
     Tim

    Jordan's 31 points in game 1 vaulted him past Elgin Baylor into 6th
    place on the all-time playoff scoring list:
    
    Player                            Games           Points
    Kareem "Abba-Dabba" Jabbar         237            5,762
    Jerry "West Virginny" West         153            4,457
    Larry "Legend" Bird                164            3,897
    John "Hondo" Havilcek              172            3,776
    Magic "Earvin" Johnson             186            3,640 ** needs >5 to
    Michael "Hit Me" Jordan            106            3,635    pass Magic
    Elgin "Ted Septien" Baylor         134            3,623
    Wilt "The Penetrator" Chamberlain  160            3,607

    >> What makes Jordan better than Magic and Bird is the level of defense
    >> he can play.

      Yea, I've seen his wrist raking antics. Sneak up behind the guy and
    hack the hell out of him. 
    
    	Re: .358
    
    	Thanks!  :-)

    Oh and Majic and Bird had no little tricks in there bags !!!!
    
    Jordan Became #5 on the all time Playoff Scoring list and should pass
    John Havilcek Before the series ends.  If the series goes 7 games he
    could reach (Or damn near reach) Birds #3 Seeding.  The key is he's
    played in only 108 games compared to some of the others thats pretty
    darn good numbers 34.5 pts per game, the only one close is Bird himself
    with a impressive 29.1 pts per game (In the playoffs).
    
        Player                            Games           Points
        Kareem "Abba-Dabba" Jabbar         237            5,762
        Jerry "West Virginny" West         153            4,457
        Larry "Legend" Bird                164            3,897
        John "Hondo" Havilcek              172            3,776
        Michael "Hit Me" Jordan            108            3,721
        Magic "Earvin" Johnson             186            3,640
        Elgin "Ted Septien" Baylor         134            3,623
        Wilt "The Penetrator" Chamberlain  160            3,607
    
    								MaB

>                          -< Jordan Moves past Magic >-
>
>    Oh and Majic and Bird had no little tricks in there bags !!!!
>    
>    Jordan Became #5 on the all time Playoff Scoring list and should pass
>    John Havilcek Before the series ends.  If the series goes 7 games he
>    could reach (Or damn near reach) Birds #3 Seeding.  The key is he's
>    played in only 108 games compared to some of the others thats pretty
>    darn good numbers 34.5 pts per game, the only one close is Bird himself
>    with a impressive 29.1 pts per game (In the playoffs).
>    
>        Player                            Games           Points
>        Kareem "Abba-Dabba" Jabbar         237            5,762
>        Jerry "West Virginny" West         153            4,457
>        Larry "Legend" Bird                164            3,897
>        John "Hondo" Havilcek              172            3,776
>        Michael "Hit Me" Jordan            108            3,721
>        Magic "Earvin" Johnson             186            3,640
>        Elgin "Ted Septien" Baylor         134            3,623
>        Wilt "The Penetrator" Chamberlain  160            3,607
>    
>    								MaB


Well, to quote MrT, "it's all thrust up and knobby".

Knowing this fact, I'll certainly sleep better tonight, yessirree....

If the series goes 7, Bulls are in trouble. If Jordan is poised to
pass Bird the Bulls are in trouble - he would have to averag 40+ a
game over 4 games for that to happen.

The Crazy Met

    Well they won games 1 and 2, and could have won game 3 with any
    luck or any  brakes.  But There still up 2-1 and Jordan is averging
    39pts per game at this point.  Jordan could average 40+ pts over
    the next 3 or 4 games :-).  Although I think he will be golfing by
    the end of the weekend.
    								MairB

MairB -

You mean Air Nathan will be BETTING by this weekend ;-)

JD

    
      Horace Grant sounded like he had a sever case of Michael-envy 
     last night in the post-game interviews when he said, "we can't
     let Michael take over the game like that." Uh, Horace? Michael
     plays for your team. I realize it must be hard to constantly be
     asked about Michael especially after a 17 point 16 rebound per-
     formance but Horace sounded like he might undercut Mike next time
     he goes in for a layup.
    

Fodder for the Suns bulletin board:

MJ: "We have two days left in our season"

The Crazy Met

    Modified the title.

    Say what you want, the Bulls are true champions.

    Targets for the last three years as world champs usually are, fighting
    through a MUCH tougher Eastern Conference season, and a much tougher
    Eastern conference playoff.  After their key players played all year
    round including the Olympics, and they still won.

    They looked entirely beat, done, zapped, drained, etc, the last few
    games which is easy enough to understand given the ride they've taken
    to best 27 teams three years in a row.

    They are a great team.  They have made a solidly great achievement.

    Go_Bulls.

    Now lets down to fooooooooootball.

    Chip_GSH_Bach

Yeah, but those Chi-town fans just don't stack up to the fans
in Detriot(tm) in terms of Championship Carnage...

'Saw

    One thing that should be pointed out in favor of the Bulls'
    credentials as far as the "3-peat" business is that no one is really
    mentioning that the 1980s Celtics went to no more than three straight 
    Finals and the Lakers to no more than four, so it's just not the case
    that they were just beating each other up or they'd have won 5 or more
    straight.  The Celtics might be able to point to the Sixers as a great 
    Eastern rival in a couple of those seasons (but don't forget the
    letdowns like Milwaukee), but while maybe DrM would make a case for the 
    Houston Rockets, the Lakers really had no excuses for not perennially 
    winning the West.  Granted, "consecutive titles" isn't everything, and 
    I don't expect the Bulls to go to the Finals in 9 of 11 seasons or to 
    win five overall like the Lakers did, but winning three in a row 
    shouldn't be totally downplayed on account of the competition.  It is a 
    tremendous feat, and if the Bulls really do have Tony Kukoc signed up 
    they might just yet surpass the Lakers with five or more consecutive 
    Finals appearances if not consecutive championships.
    
    glenn
    

    The Quad Squad?  Costas should patent that one...
    
    Better fix your title for the 3xWOLRD champs... 

    Yes the Lakers went to the finals 9 times in 11 years, great
    accomplishment and winning 5 is outstanding.  But in thos 11 years
    how was there western conference competition.  The Bulls lost to
    Detroit in (I beleive) 3 consecutive years, 88, 89, and 90.  Detroit
    went to the finals all 3 years, losing the first one (That they should
    have won). The Bulls have been a very good borderline great team for
    5+ Years and there still getting better.  I dont know what they have
    to do to earn people's respect but winning 3 in a row is a good start.
    Unless jordan retire's theyll get back again, and who know maybe even
    win a couple more title's.  Jordan has 2 empty fingers on the first
    hand needs a few more.  
    
    Cant wait to come back next year and defend jordan and the bulls from
    all you anti BBall Fans :-)
    
    								MairB

    Congrats MairB... Chicago deserved to win it....
    

    I hope the media dosen't beat Jordan outta the game...  He seemed
    pretty good last night.
    
    I think playing in the Olympics between two championship seasons was 
    too much B-Ball for Jordan.  He has been acting pur'tee burnt out
    lately.  Hope he takes some real time to relax on the links...

    	Is it true that Pat Riley was outside the Bulls dressing room in
    Phoenix handing out those ThreePeat caps?
    
    				/Don

    Gotta love those Chicago fans too!  I heard a kid got stabbed to death
    in the apres-game celebrations!
    
    I'll take t-ball, thank you.
    

    3 people died lasted night in Chi-town in the post-game activities..
    

700 got arrested. Imagine what would have happened if the Bulls had
won in Chicago on Friday night.

The Crazy Met

    Yabbut if the Bulls HAD won on Friday night,
    
    Phil Jackson was gonna go to the Greatful Dead concert!
    
    I remain,
    really greatful NBC shared that with me!
    (not)
    Kev
    

    No, his tix were for lasted Friday night...
    

    3 people killed in chicago last night, so does anybody know how many
    people were killed in LA, Boston and NY last night.  In DC and NY 3
    could be a slow night................
    
    								MaB

    Wake up folks, a three millon person city, three peoples were gonna die
    anyway.
    
    This way, and I sure the game had something to do with it, the press
    can tack on any murders that particular night and credit da'bulls.

    Same as other cities... but do they normally have 700 arrests?  I think
    it was pretty tame compared to what it could have been...
    

    Someone asked if there had ever been a Finals with only 1 Home win.
    2 Years ago Chicago Split at home with LA and then Swept 3 in LA.
    
    								MairB

    > 3 people died lasted night in Chi-town in the post-game activities..
    
    Still five short of the all-time Detriot record, 1989 Pistons...
    
    glenn
    

    I thought the 84 Tigers was worse, but I don't recall..
    

           
    > I thought the 84 Tigers was worse, but I don't recall..
    
    No, according to an article in last week's Globe, "Projected World Cup
    Hooliganism v. the Detriot Riots", the 1984 Tigers' riot was the first
    major incident in US sports history, but mere precursor to the more 
    violent Pistons' riots...
    
    glenn
    

Hey, come to Chicago, where you can kill three people, and then claim,
"Hey, three folks are gonna die anyway, so I'm not guilty"......


'Saw

Did be like make any more noise about retiring after the victory?

Just curious,
 Metz

>    Phil Jackson was gonna go to the Greatful Dead concert!
    
    After game 5, rumor has it that Jackson was coaching them.

    RE: .388
    
    I hope thats not what you thought I mean't, cuz it tweren't.
    
    Simply put, everytime I go to Chi, the news always has someone gittin'
    kilt on it.
    
    To see three deaths and directly attribute them to the Bulls is pretty
    narrow...

    Chip, I thought those deaths were directly attributed to the
    "celebrating" of the Bulls 3-Peat.

    clari.sports.top:14443                                           
    Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!looking!clarinews
    From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
    Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.local.illinois,clari.sports.top
    Subject: Police keep lid on Bulls victory, 2 officers shot
    Keywords: misc sports
    Message-ID: <nba-maniaU3uL1250pe@clarinet.com>
    References: <nba-maniaU3uI707ac@clarinet.com>
    X-Supersedes: <nba-maniaU3uK11pc@clarinet.com>
    Date: Sun, 20 Jun 93 21:54:17 PDT
    Location: illinois
    ACategory: sports
    Slugword: nba-mania
    Priority: major
    Format: regular
    ANPA: Wc: 487/481; Id: z0406; Sel: xxsz.; Adate: 6-21-1250ped; Ver:
    3/4; V: ld
    Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
    Codes: &sz.rxx., &sz.ril., tncn....
    ote: (complete writethru, teenager killed)
    Lines: 48
    
    	CHICAGO (UPI) -- Thousands of jubliant fans took to the streets Sunday
    night to celebrate the Chicago Bulls third straight NBA Championship,
    but thousands of riot-equipped police officers kept a lid on most violence.
    	Two police officers were shot from a passing car on the South Side
    and listed in fair condition at Michael Reese Hospital with arm wounds.
    A 15-year-old boy was killed by a bullet fired during a victory
    celebration and there was anunconfirmed report a woman was shot to death
    on the South Side.
    	Shortly after the victory, sporadic attempts at looting were reported
    at a South Side liquor store, but a massive police presence on the
    streets appeared to prevent a repeat of last year's wild celebrations
    and looting.
    	A record 4,000 calls flooded the city's 911 emergency number in the
    first hour after the Bulls win.
    	``We're receiving an awful lot of calls for service right now,''
    Capt. Tom Sandler said. ``It seems the (911) switchboard lit up as soon
    as the game was over.''
    	Callers to 911 began complaining about fans celebrating loudly and
    setting off fireworks but the calls became more serious with vandalism
    and scattered looting reported as the night progressed, Billy Davis, a
    police spokesman said.
    	About 500 young fans ignored police orders to clear Division Street
    in the near North Side entertainment district.
    	Fans screaming ``Four-peat, Four-peat'' drove around the city with
    horns blaring and Bulls banners flying, but officers kept downtown
    traffic on North Michigan Avenue moving.
    	Police Superintendent Matt Rodriguez canceled all days off in gearing
    up for a second time to suppress any violence after the Chicago Bulls
    hoped for victory.
    	Thousands of officers were in the streets Friday night, when the
    Bulls tried for the first time for their so-called ``three-peat,'' but
    the Phoenix Suns shocked Chicago 108-98, sending the best-of-seven
    series back to Arizona for Game 6. The Bulls needed a 3-point shot from
    guard John Paxton to win 99-98 Sunday.
    	Chicago had entered Friday's game with a 3-1 edge in the series,
    after winning the first two contests at Phoenix.
    	A year ago, violent outbursts followed the Bulls' victory in the NBA
    Finals, and store owners boarded up windows in preparation for another
    wild celebration.
    	Suns star Charles Barkley jokingly chided Chicagoans about the anti-
    riot preparations, saying: ``There won't be any riots tonight. Chicago,
    take all that plywood off the windows.''
    	Davis declined to specify how many officers would be on the streets
    Sunday, but news media reports said more than 5,000 officers likely
    would be mobilized, including plainclothes detectives.
    	City officials scheduled Chicago's third consecutive Bulls victory
    rally for 10 a.m. CDT Tuesday at the Petrillo Band Shell in Grant Park.
    

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    	CHICAGO (UPI) -- At least three people were shot and killed in
    sporadic violence on Chicago streets after the Bulls clinched their
    third straight NBA championship, defeating the Suns in Phoenix.
    	Chicago police reported scattered shooting and vandalism, mainly on
    the South and West aides, Sunday night and early Monday after the Bulls
    99-98 victory on John Paxson's three-pointer with 3.9 seconds left in
    the game.
    	At least three police officers were slightly wounded by gunfire and
    at least 680 people were arrested. Other officers were hurt by thrown
    bricks, bottles and other missiles.
    	Police said their massive presence in which riot-equipped officers
    were recalled from days off and vacation did prevent widespread
    violence, especially in the area around the Stadium that were major hot
    spots last year when 107 police were hurt and damage was estimated at
    $10 million.
    	There were about 5,000 officers on the streets during the night to
    deter a repeat, the largest deployment since the 1968 Democratic
    National Convention.
    	Police said they received about 7,400 calls for assistance in the
    first two hours after the victory, a record 4,000 in the first hour
    alone.
    	About 2,000 peaceful and jubilant fans greeted the Bulls as they
    arrived at O'Hare International Airport early Monday and city officials
    prepared for a 10 a.m Tuesday celebration at Grant Park.
    	Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf called the victory ``absolutely mind
    boggling'' and said ``maybe people are going to stop calling Chicago a
    city of losers.''
    	But apparently celebratory gunshots were deadly for some.
    	Police Sgy. Daniel Fitzgerald said a 25-year-old woman, Rosalyn
    Slaughter, was shot and killed outside her South Side residence.
    	``She was standing outside with her baby celebrating the Bulls'
    victory when a random gunshot hit her with a fatal wound to the head,''
    Fitzgerald said.
    	Henry McFadden, 26, was hit by a bullet as he sat on his South Side
    front porch.
    	Julio Castillo, 18, was pulled from a car of friends traveling in the
    Northwest Side and shot and killed in a possible gang-related incident,
    police spokesman Billy Davis said.
    	Davis, however, said there was no definitive evidence to link the
    shooting deaths to post-victory celebrations. While there were no deaths
    last year, violence was much more widespread than this year, Davis
    said.
    	``It's unfortunate. We would certainly like to have had an evening
    that was without incident. Unfortunately, that's not the case. We have a
    proliferation of handguns and an element of knuckleheads that feel they
    have to celebrate by popping off guns,'' Davis said. Some people are 
    ``hooligans with criminal intent'' that no amount of police presence
    could have prevented, he said.
    	``We're receiving an awful lot of calls for service right now,''
    Capt. Tom Sandler said shortly after the victory. ``It seems the (911)
    switchboard lit up as soon as the game was over.''
    	About 500 fans ignored police orders to clear Division Street in the
    near North Side entertainment district, and police used Mace at the
    Harold Ickes public housing complex near Chinatown as revelers threw
    bricks and bottles at police and fired shots at them.
    

    Is it John PaxSon or PaxTon?

    BJ Armstrong.  Obviously the best point guard in the NBA.

    In the NBA or the WOLRD?
    

    Wots a WOLRD?

    Not even close, but they dont need the best PG when the have the best
    all around Guard to ever play the game on the opposite side of the
    floor.  As long as BJ and Paxson and run the floor and Nail the 3ptr
    there doing there job.  Kukoc needs to score, not as much as jordan
    but he needs to be an offensive threat when jordans on the bench.
    
    Pippen and Kukoc should be on the floor together alot,  Im looking for
    the bulls to improve alot during the offseason.  They still have a real
    need for a Big man of the Future, but the rest looks real good.
    
    								MairB

    I don't know but it's in the title of this topic...
    

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    From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
    Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
    Subject: Bulls sign Kukoc
    Keywords: basketball, men's professional
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            CHICAGO (UPI) -- The National Basketball Association champion
    Chicago
    Bulls got even stronger Monday, signing Croatian forward Toni Kukoc to
    a
    multi-year contract.
            Terms were not disclosed but ESPN Radio, citing a source close
    to the
    negotiations, reported Sunday that the three-time defending champion
    Bulls gave Kukoc a guaranteed deal worth $17.9 million over eight
    years.
            The 24-year-old Kukoc is considered by many to be the top
    basketball
    player in Europe. He was the Bulls' second-round pick, 29th overall, in
    the 1990 draft.
            ``He (Kukoc) is a consummate team player and a proven winner at
    each
    level he has played since turning professional at 17,'' Bulls Vice
    President of Operations Jerry Krause said.
            A 6-10, 220-pound forward with all-around skills, Kukoc was a
    member
    of the the silver medal winning Croatian team at the 1992 Summer
    Olympics in Barcelona. Croatia lost to the United States ``Dream
    Team,''
    117-85.
            Kukoc played professionally for Benetton of the Italian League,
    but
    was released from his $15 million contract last month. The contract was
    to expire in 1995. He averaged 19.6 points and shot 54 per cent from
    the
    field in two years with Benetton.
    

Article 9491 of clari.sports.basketball:
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From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Michael Jordan's Statement
Keywords: basketball, men's professional
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	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- The complete text of a statement issued Thursday
by Chicago Bulls superstar Michael Jordan though his agent, David B.
Falk of Washington, D.C., regarding the recent murder of his father:
	``I am very grateful for the outpouring of sympathy which is
comforting the Jordan family during our time of bereavement. The many
kind words and thoughtful prayers have lifted our spirits through
difficult times.
	I also want to express my appreciation to the local, state and
federal law enforcement officers for their efforts. Certainly, there
have been lingering concerns about the handling of Dad's body which, in
turn, triggered controversy. Fortunately, the investigation has
identified the apparent perpetrators of this heinous act, and their
forthcoming trials will ultimatelyestablish their culpability and mete
out their punishments.
	Through this painful ordeal, I never wavered from my conviction that
Dad's death was a random act of violence. Thus, I was deeply disturbed
by the early reports speculating that there was a sinister connection to
Dad's death. I was outraged when this speculation continued even after
the arrests of the alleged murderers. These totally unsubstantiated
reports reflect a complete lack of sensitivity to basic human decency.
	When James Jordan was murdered, I lost my Dad. I also lost my best
friend. I am trying to deal with the overwhelming feelings of loss and
grief in a way that would make my Dad proud. I simply cannot comprehend
how others could intentionally pour salt in my open wound by insinuating
that faults and mistakes in my life are in some way connected to my
father's death.
	As a public figure, I have always respected the media and their role
in reporting news to the public. I have always believed that there must
be a balance between the responsibility to inform and the obligation to
inform responsibly. During this tragic ordeal, the vast majority of the
media reports approached the situation with dignity, sensitivity and
respect for humandecency. Unfortunately, a few engaged in baseless
speculation and sensationalism. These few should cause us all to pause
and examine our consciences and our basic human values.
	My Dad taught me to carry myself with love and respect for all. The
wisdom of his principles will help me rise above any thoughtless
insensivity and unfounded speculation. With the help of God's strength,
I will find the inner peace to carry on in Dad's way.``


    

 Clinton offers Mike's PR team same post at White House film at 11:00...

    
    It's just been reported on tee ve that tomorrow morning there'll be a
    newz conference and that Michael Jordan will announce his retirement
    from basketball!
    
    No other details
    
    I remain,
    Sports InstantnewsReporter!
    Kev
    

    
    Tee Vee's closing comments had a great time mentioning in almost
    "It's a lock" terms that MK is gonna do it tomorrow.
    
    9 years - .see ya Mikey - thanks
    
    I remain,
    never able to doit like you   :*(
    Kev
    

    ... for now... if he misses it too much, he'll be back.  Maybe next
    year...
    

    That's a shame.  I can understand why, but I'll still miss seeing him
    out there.  You want to beat the best.  If Phoenix would be fortunate
    enough to do that this year, you want him out there.
    
    Mike

    Without Jordan the Bulls go from a favorite or close to it of winning
    it all again, to being a 2nd or 3rd place team in their division.
    Cleveland should win the division. Will this make Hal truly
    insufferable? :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    	CaVs in 94!!!!!!
    
    	Doesn't hurt my feelings any!
    
             o
    	Go CaVs!

    The Bull's are still as good as the cav's even without jordan :-)
    
    The question is will they (the players and coach) be able to get
    there heads and games together.
    
    I'll still be rooting for them, but I think this gives charlotte
    a much better chance...
    
    							MairBrooks

    Opens a lot of Salary to make sure Horace is happy. And he will be more
    akin to staying with more of the spotlight on him (he will be even more
    of a key without Jordan). They'll need to see if they can pick up a
    good free agent guard, but this also makes Kukoc contract problems (was
    this resolved) easier to handle, so if he can step up and play, they'll
    still be a force, and as likely as any other team to win it (as opposed
    to being a lock)
    
    FWIW
    
    Murph
    

    
    Yabbut I cain't help but wonder when we'll be reading that he's applied
    for a PGA position.
    
    I remain,
    a firmly entrenched duffer  :*(
    Kev
    

 Probably just another one of Deano's boys trying to get out the limelight
 before they uncover all the skeltons in his closet......

 Maybe Mike's been listen to the Beasties and deiced enoughs enoughs...

 mike

    I think the bulls will still be competative, unlike the celtics, bird
    left and left them with some talanted Old Foggies and some Young studs
    that were too Green :-)
    
    The Bulls still have Pippen, and now maybe Grant and Armstrong will see
    the money they deserver, Kukoc and hopefully Reed will work out.  The
    big question will still be at the Center spot.. Maybe they can somehow
    land Akeam :-)
    
    With all the salary cap rules, what do the bulls have available form
    MJ sloted 4M contract this season ?
    
    Starting Forwards:      Scottie Pippen          Horrace Grant
    Starting Center:                   Bill Cartwright
    Starting Guards:        Tony Kukoc              BJ Armstrong
    
    Reserve Guards:         John Paxson     Steve Kerr (Free Agent)
    Reserve Centers:        Stacey King     Will Purdue
    Reserve Forwards:       Scott Williams  (R)Cory Blount  (R)Anthony Reed
    
                            Tucker  Replaced by Kukoc +
                            Walker  Replaced by Blount +
                            McCray  Replaced by Reed +
                            Jordan  Replaced by Kerr -
    
    The New Bulls still look better then the celtics
    

      Paxon is better than Armstrong.  BJ don't deserve $3+mil/year.
    
      Tim

                                                          
    Sadly, we'll soon find out exactly what Michael Jordan in his prime 
    meant to the Chicago Bulls, and I think it will only solidify his
    growing and deserved reputation as the best that ever was.  For me,
    Jordan's unmatched grace in action was one of the few reasons to watch
    the circus sideshow that the NBA has become.  As many have noted, on
    the court Jordan rose above all that even though he himself in large 
    part created the monster.  Shaq tearing down backboards and Charles
    barreling through defenders and the like won't cut it as a substitute 
    for this viewer.
    
    However, I'm also doubtful that this is absolutely it, and there'll be
    no return after a year.  But if it is, more power to Michael Jordan for
    going out on top finally for his own important and meaningful reasons 
    and not David Stern's and the Madison Avenue crowd's superficial ones 
    that Jordan willingly catered to all too often in the past...
    
    glenn
      

    Michael made his own decision. He has gone through alot in this past
    year. He has done everything. His team has taken the championship, and
    thats what Mike wanted.
    
    I don't know the complete reason why he is leaving, but maybe he feels
    he has done all he can do.
    
    Lets put it this way, the guy has major bucks. If he dosen't want to
    play, why should he!
    
    

M_Air, I don't want to burst your bubble, but every analyst I heard this
morning was saying that Chicago without Jordan drops back into 3rd
place amongst the teams in the division.

Jordan was classic.  I don't know if he has what it takes to make the 
PGA Tour, but it would be interesting to see it....


'Saw

    Unless Kukoc is the second coming of Michael (which I doubt), Chicago
    will barely be better than a .500 team.  They'll probably finish 4th in
    the Central, behind Cleveland, Detroit, and Charlotte.
    
    NAZZ

    
    To: Tim Wilson, President-Chicago Bulls
    From: Kevin Farley, NBA Wannabee
    
    Dear Mr. Wilson,
    
    	Due to the recent announcement regarding Michael Jordan's
    retirement, I hereby submit myself for consideration of filling your
    newly opened player slot.
    
    	I am willing to work for far less than you were paying Michael.  I
    could also be a croud pleaser 'cause I once dunked the ball.  Since I'm
    a little bigger than Spud Webb and I have a head of hair, there
    wouldn't be any glare into the crowd as I'd scoot around the court like
    a water bug.
    
    	As an ex-New Yorker, I'm sure that my being a member of the Chicago
    Bulls could re-ignite the NY-Chicago rivaly to unparalleled heights!
    
    	To make contacting me very simple and inexpensive, I have
    established a toll free number for you.  Simply dial 1-800-KEV-PLAYS!
    
    Eagerly I await your call,
    
    Kevin Farley
    

    Well see who finishes higher the Celts or JordenLess Bulls
    
    You know who's my guess...
    
    Again they still have a great team, not the greatest of all time
    (any more) but there's a few things well never know.. When would
    it have ended, just how good and how long would they have continued.
    Magic and Bird got to play there carear's untill they couldnt play.
    
    Not only will jordan go down in history as the Best of all time, buy
    all will wonder where it would have ended.
    
    For the bull's, its not over.  There's still a few unanswed questions,
    1.  how good is kukoc and how much of jordan scoring can he pickup.
    2.  how good is scotty pippen without jordan, can he develope his
    	game to superstar status now with jordan gone.
    3.  What will they do with jordan's salary and about a center, could
    	they land an Akeam thru Free Agency, trades etc...
    4.	Will there 2 rookies Reed/Blount be able to contribute
    5.	What will Kerr bring to the team.
    
    The only position on the Celtics team that may be better the on the
    Bulls team is at center. Pippen, Grant, BJ, and Kukoc are all a step
    above what the celtics currently have (Well Maybe Id take Dee on the
    bulls :-) )
    
    							MairBrooks

    Just heard the Bulls just signed a free agent Guard/TowelBoy/Janitor
    
    Something Farley....

    After listening to the press conference, I have a gut feeling he'll be
    back for the '94-'95 season.  I still believe he's going through his
    mourning phase.  Once that's over, the competitive fires will start to
    burn again.  He didn't rule out a comeback and when talking about his
    father, you can tell it still deeply affected him.
    
    "This is truly sad.  He was the fiercest competitor I've ever met." -
    Sir Charles Barkley
    
    However, if you go to the Knorr School of Conspiracy (tm), you're
    laying odds that the NBA investigation of his gambling has uncovered
    more dirt than Michael wants to be around to answer to.
    
    Mike

    
    Re .421
    
  > For the bull's, its not over.  There's still a few unanswed questions,
    
    It may not be over, but it's clear that a Bulls victory this year would
    be a surprise rather than the most likely result.
    
  > 2.  how good is scotty pippen without jordan, can he develope his
    	game to superstar status now with jordan gone.
    
    You know, I'm really glad that we're going to get a chance to see this
    one answered while Pippen's in his prime.  I'm not at all convinced
    that his success doesn't ride largely on Jordan's talent.  Shall be
    interesting.
    
  > 5.	What will Kerr bring to the team.
    
    Outside shooting.  A player who can't dunk.  A hard worker who gets
    the most out of his talent, but borderline CBA-NBA talent.  A Bulls
    player I will actually root for.  B^)
    
    Joe

    Re: Celtics & Bulls
    
    That's a no-brainer.  Robert Parish, the oldest player in the NBA, will
    probably be Boston's best player this season.  Abdelnaby just had back
    surgery yesterday and will miss the first 3 months of the season.  I
    hate to say it, but Boston is destined for the lottery this year (and
    is probably the best thing for them at this point).
    
    The Bulls, without Jordan, will struggle to make the playoffs.  If they
    make it, they'll be the 7th or 8th seed and won't get past the first
    round.  The Bulls have yet to prove they can win without Jordan and
    don't play the Mavs, Woofs, and Kings enough to earn a playoff spot.
    
    Mike

The Bulls will be much better than 7th or 8th in the east,
because the east just doesn't have the teams it once had.
Even without Jordan, the Bulls will be competing for the
4th spot in the east (behind NY, Charlotte, and Cleveland).
Unfortunately for them, they ar no longer in the hunt for
next year's NBA title.

    I agree with Chris. I can't believe we've seen the last of Michael.
    What does this do to his numerous endorsements? I know Magic lost a
    helluva lot of ads after his retirement. I'm sure the competitive fires
    will burn once again later this year.

    	I don't know that Jordan will be back.  He will miss the game but
    not the circus atmosphere that surrounded him.  There is nobody left in
    the game that's even close to what he was.  As the late Boston Globe
    columnist George Fraizer would've said, Michael had duende.
    
    				/Don

    -1, 2 very differenct circumstances..
    
    I still think the bulls have the talant to be competative, but how much
    will each individual player step up there game.  In the past they
    practiced played and lived around MJ (Im exagerating here). In when
    they all of a sudden had to play without MJ they just couldnt step it
    up.  But now they have a little time to practice and get use to the
    fact that MJ is gone, theyll either each pick it up, or pack it up,
    only time will tell.  NY and Clev are the Great Team that just couldnt
    get it done and the book's still open on both of them.  Charlotte is
    hands down the best up and coming team, are they there yet, who knows.
    
    NY has to be consider the Favorite in the east but I wont rule out
    charlotte after how tough and close they played NY last year they have
    to be taken seriously... I'm still going to root hard and long for a
    Chicago VS Charlotte eastern Final :-) (Id hate to see NY or Clev
    representing the east).
    
    The old bulls are dead, long live the New Bulls... :-)
    
    							MairBrooks

    Jordan's endorsements run for 10 more years, with or without
    basketball.
    
    "Maybe this will make people wake up.  People need to just appreciate
    athletes for what they do and not take them for granted.  Athletes
    shouldn't be deified." - Paul Westphal on Jordan's announcement
    
    Let's look at the East.  The obvious favorite now has to be the Knicks. 
    I see the East looking like this now:
    
    1. New York
    2. Cleveland
    3. Charlotte
    4. Orlando - if they sign Hardaway
    5. New Jersey
    6. Atlanta
    7. Chicago
    8. Indiana

 >   "Maybe this will make people wake up.  People need to just appreciate
 >   athletes for what they do and not take them for granted.  Athletes
 >   shouldn't be deified." - Paul Westphal on Jordan's announcement
  

First of all this has to be the stupidest statement I've read in a long time.
Why shouldn't we take an athlete for granted? It's not like they're curing
cancer or solving the world's hunger problem. 

On one hand Westphal says they shouldn't be diefied and on the other hand he
says they shouldn't be taken for granted? Try having your first cup of coffee
before you talk to the media Paul...

Secondly...

 I think he'll be back. This is one of the most competitive men on the planet
who has had everybody gunning for him for the past 5 years. He's thrived off of
it. He gloats when he wins and and loves driving the final stake through an
opponent. He isn't going to get the same thrills dropping putts and hundreds of
thousands of dollars on the links....
 He will miss the thrill of the competition and i think it will give him
extreme satisfaction to watch the bulls fall this season and then rejion them
to lead them to another NBA championship to show the world what he meant to his
team and the game. A better script couldn't have been written for the WWF.

 The big problem is that he has no one else on his level. I don't see anybody
on the horizon to challenge him either (maybe Mashburn). If a challenger showed
up it would give him even more incentive to unretire....

 Metz
 

Metz, he has gambling to sooth his competitive edge...Seriously he has nothing
left to prove. He always be second best to RUSSELL and that ain't bad. Besides
you yourself point to the fact that there are no challengers to him out there
but to make the PGA tour now that would be a challenge that he could relish
and forfill his ego with....

mike

    -1, who's russell ??
    
    Maybe Jordan will spend his time on the golf course to the point where
    he wants to prove he can be a champion in 2 sports :-)....
    
    							MairB

    I think Detroit will crack the top 5 with the moves they've been
    making.
    
    Anyone know when the gambling investigation was supposed to be
    completed?

Frankly I'll be amazed if he does anything with golf. He's simply not as good
as he thinks he is. Golf is more of a mental game than an athletic feat.
Consistancy is the name of the game and Mike showed he couldn't even beat a
good club player when money was on the line never mind the Fred Couples, Nick
Faldos and Greg Normans of the world....

You might look at a Greg Statler and think if he can do it anybody can but it
isn't true...

I figured he'd play hoops until 40 and then he'd have 10 years to work on his
game before joining the seniors tour...He'd have some fun and be somewhat
competitive there....

Hoops will draw him back...and I'm with glenn in saying that he made the NBA
enjoyable to watch. He rose above the WWF, home court, hokey like atmosphere
condoned by David Stern and made the game a thing of beauty.....It'll be ugly
brawlball this year...

Metz

    Yeah Walt, I forgot about the Pistons.  They'll push Chicago further
    down into the pack.
    
    RE: Jordan & Golf
    
    Even if he only lost $200K instead of $1.2M golfing, he still isn't
    good enough for the PGA tour.
    
    Sir Charles just had a press conference at America West Arena (was also
    broadcasted nationwide by ABC radio).  He said, "The New York Knicks
    are a lock in the East since they'll be playing the 'Little Sisters of
    the Poor.'"

    Ya beat me to it, Metz.  I'd be willing to bet that Jordan would have a
    very tough time getting himself a PGA card, never mind winning anything
    on the Tour.
    
    					Steve

>                -< He's a LONG way from a card carrying member >-
>
>    Ya beat me to it, Metz.  I'd be willing to bet that Jordan would have a
>    very tough time getting himself a PGA card, never mind winning anything
>    on the Tour.
    
They were saying on WFAN this morning that Jordan carries a 3 or 4 handicap.
Now, they said that he finds out when he plays in the Pro-Am things that
it isn't enough to get onto the tour.

Their speculation was that if he devoted his time solely to golf, that he
might be able to get his card and be "on the fringes of the tour"....


Golf might be a game played by guys in funny colored pants, but those
guys are something else when it comes to making shots under pressure.
(All except for Chip Beck of course)


'saw

Exactly. You guys proved my point for me....

never said he'd make it, just said it offer him more of a challenge than
the NBA....

mike

 Remember when people used to say that Mike was a great scorer but not
a great defender and then he proved 'em wrong? Remember when they said he
was a great driver but had no J and then he developed one? Remember when
they said he wouldn't be considered in Larry and Magic's class until
he won a title? I wouldn't be so quick to count out Mike the golfer. Golf
ain't neuro surgery. Given his immense athletic ability and competitive
drive, I'd be surprised if Mike *didn't* get his PGA card and make enough
money playing to at least cover expenses. Just think of how much endorse-
ment money would come rolling in if ever became a successful pro. It boggles
the mind.

>Golf ain't neuro surgery.

Yeah...It's tougher...


'saw...You must not have been watching Chip Beck in the Ryder cup. The guy was
awesome....


Re: Mike...

He's always been one of the top in his game (hoops). How will he respond when
he'd getting dunked on by guys wearing polyester that are 50 pounds overweight? 

That what's going to happen to him if he tries the PGA world. 

A 3 or 4 handicap is crap in the PGA world. These guys are all scratch golfers
who play under par not over it....

Mike should stick to the pro-ams where he can play with the Barkley style
players...(now that is one ugly swing)...

When Mike can beat Johnny Bench on the course is when he might think about
moving into the local club tourneys....

Metz

    Remeber the Michael Jordan who couldnt even make his High School
    basketball team, and a few years later was leading his team to
    an NCAA Title.... 2-4 Years of Total Golf and he could be on the
    Tour....Someone once told me (Claimed) that you need to play approx
    150+rounds a year to become competative... Its proberbly pretty tough
    to play golf inbetween basketball and gambling :-), this is another
    only time will tell... 
    
    Im not a huge golf player but isnt a 3 or 4 handicap mean he shots
    mid 70's ??? (most pars being 70 or 72 correct ?)  If that be the
    case he doesnt need to trim all that much (6-8 strokes per round :-) )
    He'd make a killing in endorsments just staying competative :-)
    
    
    							MairB

    Nike does make golf shoes.

    Something struck me in Jordan's opening statement. He said that he
    wouldn't be playing basketball...at least in the NBA.
    Hmmmm, if you think of how world famous he is, his multi-million
    endorsements of Nike, McDonald's, Gatorade, etc.  can you say Europe??
    
    Might not be as far-fetched as we think. And As Walt said, how far
    along had the gambling investigation gone? Related? 
    
    
    Anyhoo, Mike, if he don't play BBall, has 20 yrs to hone his golf
    skills to prepare for the Senior Tour.
    
    Goodbye Mike, you were the greatest.
    
    MikeL
    
    

>
>'saw...You must not have been watching Chip Beck in the Ryder cup. The guy was
>awesome....
>

Nope.  I have to admit the last time I saw Chip Beck he was laying up
and playing it safe in the Masters.

If he did well in the Ryder, then he probably atoned for his awful
showing in the Masters.   Why, I can still hear Beavis and Butt-head
doing the commentary from that day:


	Butt-head:  Huh-huh, huh-huh-huh, here's Chip Beck, getting
		    out his wuss club.

	Beavis:	    Yeah, yeah, he's standing on the edge of wuss plain.
		    He sucks.

	Butt-head:  You said suck.


'Saw

 >> He's always been one of the top in his game (hoops). How will he respond 
 >> when he'd getting dunked on by guys wearing polyester that are 50 pounds 
 >> overweight? 

    I'm sure he knows fully well what to expect. He didn't win a title in his 
    first year in the NBA. Or the second, third or fourth for that matter.
    He continually improved and made himself the best player ever. He has
    time to learn the game of golf and the money to play and hire the best 
    teachers. He may end up being a bust as a golfer but I wouldn't dis-
    count him so quickly because he's not your average human being by a long
    shot. I just don't understand why he wants to play an old fogies game.

    Maybe having to have his toes sewn together had something to do with
    it.

 I'm sure he meant casual basketball and special appearances and not Europe.
Why the hell would he go to Europe? If he wants more money he can just ask
for it. He's as famous as he's gonna get. Why leave the States and subject 
himself and his family to the stress of being in a foreign country away from
their loved ones? I don't see it happening. Besides NBA basketball is as good
as it gets, European basketball would bore him. He'd be like Jack Nicklaus
on a miniature golf course.

    
    Michael is not coming back to the NBA. 
    
    I don't believe any competitive juices will start to flow until playoff
    season.  One of the things you hear most from the veteran players (ie;
    Jabbar, Parrish, etc) is that they could do without the wear and tear
    of the long season.  I've heard complaints about exhibition, practices,
    road trips, and 4 games in 5 nights in 4 cities.
    
    I believe he will spend more time with his family and friends out of
    the public spotlight.  Unlike Magic and Bird, basketball is not all
    encompassing to him.  He appears to enjoy other things just as much.  I
    believe his competitiveness will be carried over to whatever he chooses
    to persue.
    
    I think he'll begin to place a higher value on the relationship he has
    with his children which is difficult to cultivate when 60% of the
    basketball season is spent away from home and the other 40% absorbed in
    the trappings of the game.
    
    I will truly miss those displays of basketball artistry that he
    canvassed on the court and I wish him peace of mind.
    
    --- The New Bulls ----
    
    This team is no slouch and I fully expect them to garner an identity
    over the course of this season.  My prediction is that they will finish
    within the top 3 in the east barring injuries.  They now have something
    to prove to the other NBA teams and themselves.  DEC is going on
    without Ken...the Bulls will survive without MJ.
    
    TonyS

    
    
     Maybe we'll start seeing travelling and palming get
    called again.
    
     Maybe we'll stop seeing imaginary contact being called a foul.
    
     And all this hissy-fuss about "beating the Bulls should have an
    asterisk next to it." crapola. Stop the crying.   
    
     
     The guy was the best ever, but now he's retiring. Life goes on.
    At least he won't be going on one of those silly retiring tours
    across the USA. He's leaving while on the top. 
    
    
      STeve
    
    
    
     

    Air wouldn't go to Europe to prove anything since they have nothing but
    NBA rejects playing there.
    
    From the Knorr School of Conspiracies:
    --------------------------------------
    With Hakeem trade rumors abounding, Jordan retires to avoid further
    gambling allegations.  Chicago, in trying to rebuild, trades Williams,
    Armstrong, King, and Blount to Houston for Hakeem.  Then Jordan will
    come out of retirement.

Where are you hearing these Hakeem trade rumors?  The guy just signed
a new deal with the Rockettes last year and went out and had his best
season ever.  Both sides were said to be extremely happy with the new
longterm contact, so why would Houston want to trade the best center
in the game?  

Ken

    hey everyone in sport's what if's
    
    What if Magic wasnt injured in the finals
    What if Rodman hadnt thrown a brick in game 5 (or 6) first Det VS LA
    What if Larry didnt have an injury to his back
    
    The same lame excuses get used over and over and over and over
    by anti chicago/jordan fans.  He was the best,  had nothing to do
    with traveling, palming or the refs... He was the most athletic,
    talanted Basketball player to ever take the court.  And you missed
    it, all you anti jordan/chicago fans who didnt watch and enjoy him
    on the court missed the best, most exciting Basketball player of
    all time, and now its over.
    
    Ive missed out on seeing some of the all time greats in the NBA and
    other sports do to only be 26 and not getting intrested in sports
    right away, but Im glad I didnt miss seeing the best BBall player
    of all time in his prime, he accomplished more then bird or magic
    rewrote a good portion of the record book and brought happeness to
    many viewers.  He helped (and will continue to help) his community
    and many charities, and other then playing the lottery (Oh wait thats
    legal gambling), other then betting on golf, cards or whatever he's
    appears to be a good person.
    
    The true sports fans will recognize this has a great statment,
    obviously this man does not run on fame, fortune, money etc.. He is
    litterly throwing away Millions, how many is unknown.  He could have
    heldout and renegotiated his contract and asked to be the top paid
    player in the league (at his position bla bla bla).  HE could have did
    more advertisements, endorsements, but he throws this all away to spend
    time with his family (What a scum bag).
    
    I'll miss watching him play, but this in no way lower's my opinion of
    him as a player and a person.  Your a class Act MJ let the jealous say
    what they want....
    
    QuadPeat, QuadPeat....
    
    							MairB

   >> And you missed it, all you anti jordan/chicago fans who didnt 
   >> watch and enjoy him on the court missed the best, most exciting 
   >> Basketball player of all time, and now its over.

      Fear not. There'll be another "best, most exciting player ever" in 
      about ten years. There always is.
    

    What if monkeys flew out of his butt?
    
    Jordan will be back for the 94-95 season...
    
    What happens if they did think Jordan gambled?  You can't suspend him
    for a year... but if he retires... hmmmm....

    
    	Nike is losing money in Europe.  Jordan will go there.  Not play as
    hard.  Have a shorter season.  Make money from Nike.  Make money for
    Nike.  Simple, simple, simple.  
    
    	Something will come out of all this and it won't be good for
    Jordan.  This reminds me of the Pete Rose ordeal.  What if???  did he
    or didn't he???  I think he did.  Lots of it too.  He may just have
    bet on himself but the rules are clear.  Don't do it.  He did.  
    
    All I know is that the guys in Cleveland are probably having a BIG
    party.  
    
             o
    	Go CaVs!

    OK,
    Now that the pressure is on the Cadavers, let's see what they're
    made of; I think we'll see the same results ( Cleveland dat is)
    
    MikeL
    

 Slash, you don't know squat about boxing and not a whole lot more about
basketball neither but that there was a gem.

    -2
    Actualy I think Price bets on basketball, no whats if he did it he
    should be gone... But see the great thing about his country, which
    I'll remind you is your innocent until proven guilty.  Accusing someone
    of guilt without any bases or facts I belive is slander, or something
    like that.  Jordan bets on golf.. hey guess what buddy, I stink at golf
    worse then jordan and I bet on golf, it adds a little zing to the game
    makes things a little more competative and exciting.  And in porpotion
    Ive lost more then Jordan !!! (Like I said I stink at golf, Im glad I
    didnt play much this year, Id be really broke :-) ).
    
    The Facts are Jordan lost money in Golf, Poker and LEGAL CASION
    BETTING,  although we dont know if he lost in atlantic city or won
    but the odds of course are against you.  Non of which is against
    the NBA Betting Policy.  Those are the facts, if you want to make
    statements about teams there skills and other opinions thats one
    thing but please try to be careful about wrongly accusing people.
    If I guy (Like Dumas) fails a drug test does that make him a drug
    Dealer ?  Being a drug user is nothing to be proud of but it doenst
    make him a dealer....
    
    							MairB
    
    Cleveland wont make it to the eastern Finals, you can save this note
    print it and remember it, I'll be eating no crow over this one.  Its
    been a few (3) Years since Ive eating any good crow :-)
    
    	

    I know there is a strict gambling policy in MLB, but I didn't think
    there was one for the NBA.

    what ?? 
    
    Air in Milan next year !!!!
    
    can't wait guys!!
    
    Ciao,
    Coach_La.

Re.

> He may have won more titles, but I don't think he accomplished more
> than either of these two.

Jordan hasn't won more titles.  He and Bird each won 3, 2 short of 
Magic's 5.

Ken

    Your right magic won 5, but lets compare the supporting casts of
    Magic and Michael and you tell me who did more with less, who
    carried his team (litteraly at times).  Plus 2 gold medals, an
    NCAA Championship, 3 In a row, 7 straight scoring titles, etc,
    etc, etc

Re.

> Your right magic won 5, but lets compare the supporting casts of
> Magic and Michael and you tell me who did more with less, who
> carried his team (litteraly at times).  Plus 2 gold medals, an
> NCAA Championship, 3 In a row, 7 straight scoring titles, etc,
> etc, etc

You're assuming that I was arguing that Magic was better than Michael.
I wasn't.  I was correcting another noter's misstatement.  For the
record, I think they were both the best of all-time at their respective
positions.  My all-time dream team has Michael at shooting guard and
Magic at the point.

Ken

    Michael and Magic are even in the NCAA champeenship comparatives, 1-1.
    
    Michael leads Magic 2-0 in the 'Olympic Gold Medal' category.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

  To contribute further to this rathole...

  Can anyone name the rest of the starting five for Magic's championship
  Michigan State team? I'm sure most people can name the starting five
  for the UNC tainted-championship team that Michael was *a part of*.

  As for Olympic medals, it's 2-1 Michael not 2-0 and that's only because 
  of timing. 

    Jay Vincent and three other guys named Moe.
    
    coached by Judd ( shoulda been a Roman Senator with that haircut)
    Heathcote
    
    MikeL
    

    People thought Jordan's dad was shot because of Mike's gambling.  Now
    people are wondering if he's retiring because of his gambling.

    Magic has a gold medal, last I checked.
    
    Greg Kelser and Trgovich were also on the Michigan St. team...
    

    				MAGIC		MICHAEL
    
    NCAA Titles			  1		   1
    Olympic Gold Medals		  1		   2
    NBA Titles			  5		   3
    
    TOTAL:		 	  7		   6
    
    
    - ACC Chris

I like the part about Magic did more for his college team with less to
work with.

Considering who was on the Tar Heel team, about all Michael had to do was
shoot the shot that Dean wasn't sure he should shoot.

And of course, you probably should subtract at least one from Jordan's
column to account for one of the biggest choke jobs in the history of the
NCAA when his team lost in the Regional semis to Indiana in 84.

TTom

    > Dean wasn't sure he should shoot
    
    Bah.  Dean designed the play for Michael to shoot the ball, and if_n
    you've heard him comment on it all he'll talk about is how great our
    rebounding position was, should the shot have missed.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Dean hisself says: "I don't know if he shoud've shot it". Heard it many
times.

Take it up with your demigod. 

TTom

    Didnt Magic play 13 or 14 years in the NBA, jordan played 9, and one
    year he only played 18 games.  Magic one 5 NBA titles, but he joined
    a much more talanted team then Jordan joined in 84.  Jordan was the
    starting point, Magic was an addition to a good team.  One will never
    know how many title's jordan would have won if he played the next 4
    or 5 season's, Id be under guessing at 1, so he more then likly would
    have left the game with more then Magic if not for all the bad press
    and times he's gone thru in the past year.  Other then the 85-85
    season jordan has only missed 7 games (6 in the past 2 years) and with
    the additions they made this year he would have trimmed his minutes, he
    could have played another 3-5 years with little wear and tear, he's not
    a forward or a center who gets banged up every night... Thats the ?'s
    that will haunt me, how long would he have stayed on top....
    
    Im sorry Ive seen Magic, Bird and Jordan all play, many, many times and
    no one amazed me on the court as jordan, and no one did as much with as
    little.  Yes Pippen was a dream teamer and all star but he was an
    addition to the puzzle.  The bulls were just hitting there peak and
    still improving....  The possibilities were endless....
    
    No one thought the one man team could win a NBA Title
    Then no One thought they could repeat
    Then no one thought they could ThreePeat
    It had to end somehow, and jordan retiring will do the trick :-(
    
    I bet knowone thought the celtics would win 4 in a row, or 5 or 6
    or 7 or 8.....Wasnt Russell there for this entire streak, if you
    take him out have #3 in a row, prematurly, would they, could they
    continue the streak... One will never know :-) so in a way Michael
    retiring helps save all us bulls fans the heartbreak of seeing the
    string ended, none of us fans expect the bulls to win it all the first
    year after losing jordan, we can hope...But I think well have to see
    who they can land in the Free Agent market next year and how the team
    developes without jordan.  The biggest question marks will be Kukoc,
    Pippen, and the 2 rookies.  Paxson/Cartwright are on there way out.
    Grant and Armstrong will need to be resigned (there both strong
    players).... Will be a rough year...
    
    							mairb

    I believe Magic's real last season was in 1990.  He missed all of 1991
    and 1981 (injury that year).  He was a rookie in 1980.

    I thought he came in the league in 1979 ?  Oh well I could be
    losing it...

    Rumor mill is now saying the Bulls will sign Misfirin' Byron Scott.

    TTom, I must disagree.  I've NEVER heard Dean say he shouldn't have
    shot it.  That statement doesn't make sense when you consider that:
    
    A. It's well documented that right after Carolina broke from their
       timeout huddle Dean told Michael to "Knock it down".
    
    B. Everytime I've heard Dean comment on "The Shot" he *always* points
       out how strong our rebounding position was, which is obviously 
       something you seek when executing a play.
    
    *If* Dean said something like "I don't know if he should've shot it" I
    suspect it was in a different context, perhaps questioning his own
    decision to designate a freshman to take the big shot despite the
    positive outcome.  (This kindof thing is most Dean-like, BTW.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    	Read in todays newspaper that Jordan plans on learing how to
    operate a lawn mower.......now, this will certainly take some time...
    
             o
    	Go CaVs!

but if FSBD is the greatest why would he question himself about setting
up a player for the World's 2nd greatest player ever? Surly the all knowing
all seeing FSBD knew how good MJ really was????????

mike

    	Jordan was forced to retire because he's responsible for the loss
    of American lives in Somalia and his mob connections to John Gotti.
    
    				/Don

    
    Yabbut actually Mike retired because he promised me to help develop
    a new chemical formula to make Digger_the_Goat_dawg's land mines
    easier to see in da dark!
    
    hth
    
    I remain,
    molecularly_bonded!
    Kev
    

>                       -< Trust me TTom, you are wrong. >-

Which is it: I'm lying or what?

All you're saying is that you haven't heard him say it. Then you go and
try to explain and justify it. "No he didn't." "Here's what he meant...".

I have heard him say this on more than one occassion. Unlike, you I am
making no attempt to interpret what if any his hidden agenda was. There
is no inconsistency to Dean's encouraging a play to go Michael's way and
his concern over the actual shot taken.
   
TTom

    Color me confused.  I have a difficult time reconciling:
    
    A. Dean encouraged the shot to go Michael's way (the fact is, he
       drew up the play during the timeout and told Mike to "Knock it
       Down" after breaking huddle)
    
    and
    
    B. Dean later sez he doesn't think Michael should've taken the shot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

From: Richard_Robb@mindlink.bc.ca (Richard Robb)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Inside Scoop on MJ
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
 
A scenario re Jordan's "retirement":
After the Bulls flounder and the Vegas odds on them drop to 100-1, Michael
plops down $500,000 on the Bulls to win it all, returns in January, leads
them to a 4th straight title -- and pockets $500 million.
 
You heard it here first!
 
-- Richard  ;-)

 Mike, tell that dude that his math skills suck.

     so does gravity

    What a day to be out sick!  Two major league ratholes in one day!
    
    Urologists will be working overtime this weekend!

    >><<< Note 53.503 by ELMAGO::BENBACA "I need a career! Not a PACKAGE!" >>>

    >> so does gravity
    
    Nah, there is no gravity, the earth sucks.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Magic joined LA for the 1979-80 season. I believe that the Lakers were
    barely a .500 team the year before he joined.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    - Jordan announces his retirement
    - Stern says he will put his preseason "talk" with Jordan on hold.
    - Stern issues a statement on Friday (i.e., no press conference) that
      incriminating evidence against Jordan was found during the NBA's
      investigation.

    What's wrong with this picture?  It appears to be a little too
    convenient to me.

    your third bullet should read No Incriminating Evidence, after 5mnts
    of investigating.  Again the only thing the investigation had to do
    with it was the fact that jordan could not beleive how the press and
    the NBA was handling it.  Betting on Golf (70-80 of all hackers do it)
    playing cards for money, like nobody in here as ever sat down to a 
    friendly poker game with the guys, and a trip here and there to
    atlantic city with his father.  I guess those other 24,999 people who
    go there daily are up to something illegal as well.....
    
    The poeple in this country who do nothing but look for the evil in
    other's need to get a life.  Why does it seem like everyone feels
    people are guilty until proven innocent ?  Granted in these times many
    people have reason's to be down, but the negative reaction by many 
    people is frightening....
    
    Onto the season....
    								MairB

      >      <<< Note 53.508 by MR1PST::CBULLS::MBROOKS >>>  
      >       -<Some people want to believe he is guild... SO BAD !!! >-
    
      If anyone has believe Jordan was guilded, it was you.
    
    I think Stern didn't want to overshadow Michael's retirement news, so
    he held back his a day or two.  Since he isn't employed by the NBA
    any longer, what's the sense of a further investigation?
    
    brews  
    

    Bj has proven himself again and again that his a very decent PG.
    And look at all the other players who have come from overseas,
    IF Kukoc is the best ever from Europe then ID say he should do
    very well in the NBA.  I wont argue about Cartwirgt but I bet there's
    20+ teams that would take and possible start Grant/Pippen/BJ/Kukoc
    and maybe 2 or so that would start Cartwright :-)
    
    								MairB

Speaking of Pippen, Jackson has fined him for pulling a no-show for a
pre-season game.

TTom

    	MICHAEL was on Orca yesterday saying that he was not forced to
    retire due to gambling problems.  And Brews I wasn't watching the show,
    but saw clips of the interview on ESPN(1)'s SportsCenter.
    
    				/Don

    
    > MICHAEL was on Orca yesterday saying that he was not forced to
    > retire due to gambling problems.  And Brews I wasn't watching the show,
    > but saw clips of the interview on ESPN(1)'s SportsCenter.
    
    Yabbut, speaking of Oprah, has the mainly-main NFL really fallen so
    low as to needing her to introduce one of its ultra-boring MNF games? 
    Nexted thing you know we'll see Dierdork crying on her shoulder on the
    program (the once-mainly Giff long ago went sensitive on us what with 
    his tear-jerking book tour with Regis and Cathy Lee...)
    
    glenn
    

    	Ya know Glenn, that Oprah probably wouldn't be a bad baseball
    player...
    
    				/Don

    
    > Ya know Glenn, that Oprah probably wouldn't be a bad baseball
    > player...
    
    Beisbol es muy ennuye por Oprah...
    
    glenn
    

The Sox are looking for a center fielder,  no?


Metz who was glad to see Cindy Crawford co-hosting the Regis Philbin show
instead of the holier than thou one...


Metz

    /slasher, I'm rollin!

    
    
        Actually that was a preview.....
    
          MJ is on Oprah today at 5 in the Boston Area.
    
    Chappy   Your human TV guide.

    >(Metz who was glad to see Cindy Crawford co-hosting the Regis Philbin
    >show)
    
    >>>	instead of the holier than thou one...
    

>    And Brews I wasn't watching the show,    but saw clips of the interview
>    on ESPN(1)'s SportsCenter.    
    
    Thanks for the clarification, /er.  I was skeered you were turning into
    a soccer player on me (which I know isn't possible).
    
    brews  

    Lets see the last 4 Games VS Winning Teams 3 of the top teams in the
    east... The Bulls Bounced Boston on Wednesday, then Knipped the Knicks
    on friday, Sent San Antonio surfing and now what do my eyes see a 
    preview of the Eastern Division Finals, the Bulls Chomp Charlotte to
    the tune of 109-97
    
    Pippen had a triple doulbe 22pts, 11reb, 10ass.  The bulls are still
    without Paxson and Williams and last night were without King, 1 game
    suspension due to the rodman incident...
    
    Bulls are on a roll...
    
    							mab

    Just to clear something up that I saw in another note, the Bulls had
    their 303rd straight sellout last night.  Someone had mentioned
    recently that they had a game that didn't sellout, but the streak is
    still on.
    
    
    Spud

    This seemed like the appropriate place for this question.

    I'm in need (yes, believe it or not I actually need this
    information...) of certain dates and reference regarding Michael
    Jordan.  The dates surround major events in his career.  They are:

	Announcement date of his retirement
	Date of his fathers death
	First announcement of gambling allegations
	Date announced starting to try out for baseball

    The exact date and source of the information is needed.  Any help
    greatly appreciated.  If you know of any other events, please add them.

    To early repliers, if you don't know exact dates, close ranges would be
    helpful. This will help limit my search of the dates in magazines and
    newspapers.

    Thanks in advance. 
    (DTN:252-7109 available if you care to call) 
    Michael Floeser

    The only one of these events which has a specific date attached to it
    is his announcement of retirement which happened to be stated yesterday
    and is 
    	10/6/93.
    
    His dad died in July and the specific date is not exactly known as he
    was discovered weeks after the actual death.
    
    His baseball fantasy started to be kicked around this month and a week
    or two ago it was officially confirmed that he was invited by the
    owner.
    
    His gambling problems go back years and two principal events concern
    his check to notorious character and his welshing on some bets (book).
    
    The last three have been discussed in this and other notes in this and
    other conferences.

>    His dad died in July and the specific date is not exactly known as he
>    was discovered weeks after the actual death.
    
I'm not 100% certain, but I was browsing through my world alamanac 1994
the other day and the date July 7th rings a bell. 

Might be a decent starting spot...


Remember, Kilroy is Michael Jackson......


'Saw

>        -< Was the choice of the name "Kilroy" obvious to Yonger folk? >-

Probably not.


btw, I don't remember the name of it, but Issac Asimov wrote a bitchin'
cool short story about Kilroy one time, and how it all came about.....
I'll have to try and dig it out sometime....


'Saw

    

    Actually I heard they found an inscription; "Kilroy was here" on
    Websters undies, do mebbe you're right?
    
    ;-)

    Dear Curious;  (53.529 and all others)
    
Why looking for Michael Jordan info?  This is why... 

This information will be used for a college course I'm taking.  The group I
am in is running an event study of the companies that Michael Jordan
endorses or has ties with to see if there are any fluxuations in the stock
price after significant events in MJ's life are announced. Yes, it's a mouth
full, and may seem like a joke project, and you are probably correct on both
counts.  But the major important factor that cannot be overlooked when doing
such a project is... the professor likes it!  That's what counts.  He says
if we actually come up with some hard evidence the world will soon hear
about the Helmuth Theory (Dr. Helmuth, is our professor).  And we will have
to write a paper for publication about the findings.  ...I don't think so
Tim. 

Thanks to fellow noters, MJ announced his retirement Oct. 6, '93. His father
was found on Aug. 13, '93, missing since July. 

Looking through this notes file I found a reference to gambling on Aug.
28,'93 from the Chicago UPI (note: 53.81) and talk about his baseball
"fantasy" (as you put it) earliest at Jan.5,'94 (note:7.320). 

Other items about him in this conference was Announced foot surgery
Oct.5,'93 (10.941), Voted 3rd time as MPV May 25,'93, and opened a restaurant
(no biggie) on April 29 (53.83). 

My nephews asked what all this and the "pretty graphs" (of Nike stock &
others) were about.  So I showed them the Nike stock prices dropping (~20
points) in June last year.  They didn't need no stinkin college degree to
figure this out, they said that's because Shaq started doing Rebox
commercials then.  Well out of the mouth of... We may have a new slant on
this stock event study. 

So a new request would be: 

		When did Shaq start doing the Rebox commercials? 

Mike 

P.S.  Someone mentioned about "other" conferences?  What would they be.  I
only find this sports, an archived SPORTS_91 that is not accessible and a
sports officials.  All help much appreciated. 

the archived sports_91 moved. Kev, where did you put it??

The Crazy Met

>the archived sports_91 moved. Kev, where did you put it??

csteam::sports_91



'Saw_for_Kev

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Pippen Apologizes For Outburst

	DEERFIELD, Ill. (AP) -- Chicago Bulls star Scottie Pippen
apologized to fans Tuesday for making an obscene gesture during the
Bulls' latest loss and for angry statements he made after the game.
	``I feel I owe an apology to Bulls fans for my conduct during
the game last night and my comments following the game,'' Pippen
said in a statement.
	``The great majority of Bulls fans have treated me and my
teammates with great respect and support through the years,''
Pippen said. ``There was a small minority at last night's game who
booed me and my teammates, and I reacted in an improper way by
making an obscene gesture.''
	Monday's 89-81 defeat to the visiting Cleveland Cavaliers was
the Bulls' fourth loss in the last six games at Chicago Stadium.
	Coach Phil Jackson unsuccessfully shuffled the lineup to start
rookie Toni Kucoc, who was 0-for-9 in 23 minutes. Pippen, who was
forced to play 42 minutes as shooting guard, scored only 18 points
and was booed several times.
	``The only thing depressing to me is I have been here seven
years and have never seen a white guy get booed in the stadium,''
Pippen complained in his postgame outburst. ``It seems like when
things are bad and the ball is in your hands and you don't score,
the fans take it out on you. Toni was 0-for-whatever, and I never
heard one fan get on him.''
	In Tuesday's statement, Pippen backed off his implication of fan
racism.
	``I in no way meant to imply that there was racism involved,''
he said. ``That small minority booed all the Bulls players. In past
years they have booed players of both races.''
	Jackson said he talked with Pippen at Tuesday's practice and
found him much calmer.
	``It was obvious -- it was clear frustration,'' Jackson said.
``As the team leader he feels he has to speak out. I think the
temptation to lash out and to get even with the fans who were
booing got to be too much.''
	Retired Bulls star Michael Jordan also attributed Pippen's
outburst to frustration, but advised Pippen to maintain control.
	``It's really crucial for him as a leader of the team to stay
intact,'' Jordan said at training camp with the Chicago White Sox
in Florida. ``You got some things off your chest. Now let's take
this team and make things happen with what you have. I think the
last thing you want to do is start pointing fingers at anybody.''

     "We've lost a little something and I don't know what it is.
     There is no tenacity. We don't have the same mental toughness as we
     did in the first half (of the season). I'm not finger-pointing or
     anything, but Toni (Kukoc) has to play better defense. He has to be
     a better all-around player." -- Bulls forward Scottie Pippen after
     Chicago lost for the fourth time in six home games, 89-81 to
     Cleveland on Monday night.

    Scottie also said that he should be the NBA's ambassador instead of
    Charles because Barkley is a phony and kisses Magic's, Michael's, and
    Larry's butts.
    
    Barkley just laughed it off, but it sounds like the pressure is getting
    to Pippen.  He's afraid he'll prove he was riding Jordan's coattails
    all along.

    Pressure does have a way of making the truth come out.

    Then he can't even apologize himself, Jerry Krause wrote it for him.

  I think it's more that case that sudden anger can make incorrect statements
come out rather than the truth. In normal life they are often forgotten, but in
our sound bite world a famous person's flub gets played over and over making
people mistakenly take it for truth. 

  It makes far more sense to just let things like that slide unless he repeats
them over and over. No apology should be necessary.

  George

Why they'll get there
----------------------
Defense, rebounding, and experience.  Even without Michael Jordan, Chicago has a
solid nucleus.  Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen are proven all-around talents,
BJ Armstrong has emerged in the backcourt, and rookie Toni Kukoc has improved as
the season has progressed.

Why they won't
--------------
A seven-game series will expose too many weaknesses - for example, the Bulls
lack a go-to player other than Pippen - if those weaknesses haven't shown up
before then.

X-factor
--------
Free throw shooting.  Of the top club's three scorers, two - Grant and Pippen -
have struggled at the charity stripe.  That can be fatal in the playoffs, when
defenses become more agressive and are much more willing to foul instead of
giving up an easy basket.  As the primary ball-handler, Pippen will be required
to make free throws late in close games.

Player on the spot
------------------
Steve Kerr, Pete Myers, and Bill Wennington.  The Bulls got a lot of unexpected
mileage out of their role players during the regular season.  Can the pine
brothers continue to play at the same level in the playoffs?

    >> Why they won't  (win it all)........
    
    Whats the Suns excuse...er reason.  :-)                 

    >    Whats the Suns excuse...er reason.  :-)                 
    
    Ben, probably in the Suns note.

    Ok, I'll head over there....

    
    	Whats this I hear.......Pippen has injured himself in practice?????
    
    
                o
    	Go *C*A*V*S*

    Are the *C*A*V*S* toast, yet?
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    
   > Are the *C*A*V*S* toast, yet?
    
    Take it easy Chip.  They are all busy celebrating the Crunch's world
    championship.
    
    brews
    

    Actually, I knew the answer m'self, I just could leave that last reply
    on this string unfettered.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    Yeah, so the facility in Richfield will be more vacant...
    

So did Scotty Pippen put himself in a favorite position for the A** Hole of the 
Year Award or what?  

I just can't beleive the "I'm not playin' because you called HIS number!"  and 
"I'll never get paid less than him!" crap.  By not going out there, he gave the
Knicks one less person to focus on for the play, thus endangering the victory 
for his teammates.  Oh, and by the way, the guy who he didn't want to play with
went out, made the shot, won the game, and afterward couldn't understand his
teammate's actions.

If I were a Bulls player, I'd slug him.  If I were Phil Jackson, I'd run him 
out of town. I don't care how good he is.

Scotty Pippen - what a schmuck...

=Bob=

    
      And the Bulls fans gave him an ovation before yesterday's game.
     Beautiful. He should be run out of town on a rail. A few years
     ago, Xavier McDaniel, who was then with the Knicks, said that 
     Scottie was soft and that he went into his shell if you roughed
     him up a bit. So, Xman proceeds to prove his point by roughing
     Scottie up during the series and Scottie did his Tudor Turtle
     imitation and put up some pretty abysmal numbers. He's a punk 
     and whole lot of other things that you  can't post in a company 
     forum.

    Remember Pippen's game 7  migraine against Detroit? He holds a great
    deal of anymosity towards Kukoc and it came out again Friday. 

    He had those migraines the first 2 times they met in the Conf. Finals.

|    He had those migraines the first 2 times they met in the Conf. Finals.

Mean he had them before Kukoc was his teammate?

     Yep, and three rings to go with them  :-)

|    Yep, and three rings to go with them  :-)

As I say, he's a talented guy, but his actions of this weekend show that he:

	1.  Is a spoiled-rotten little wuss.
	2.  Puts himself before his team, thus would sacrifice a fourth ring
 	    for the sake of Scotty Pippen.

=Bob=

re: Pippin

Ya cain't knock the guy until he loses. Maybe it's all
a clever strategy ;)

josh

The onliest way Pippen is gonna shake quiting in game 3 is if'n the Bulls
win it all. There's no way his teammates will forget any time soon.

Then he should leave town and/or the league. He's absolutely the lasted
thing the NBA needs right now.

TTom

    rep .557
    
    I agree. 

    
         All of the Bulls who have three rings should genuflect every day
        towards Birmingham or wherever Jordan is. Scottie is no exception.
        When the two played together, Michael could be seen cajoling or brow-
        beating, depending upon the situation, Scottie to get him going.
        That was always the biggest difference between the two - mental
        toughness. Michale never got down on himself. Michael never all-
        owed himself to be intimidated. Scottie, on the other hand, re-
        ceieved and deserved his reputation for being soft because he *did*
        allow himself to be rattled and intimidated. Talented? No question.
        Disciplined and tough? I don't think so. 
    

     Hell, with Jorden I *wanted* them to lose but they didn't. Now that
    they have Luc I want them to win. Proly won't though and with Pippen
    acting the way he did the other day sure doesn't help.

Look at it this way. The past is the past, and Pip has 3 
rings. He is not a loser. His role thisted year has had to
be dramatically different, and his adjustment has not been
easy. Still, da Bulls had a better year than anyone hoped
or expected. Until they lose ya cain't knock Scottie.

Maybe this whole thing is a clever Jackson plot. Distract
and conquor is not a bad strategy for the Knicks. Whatever,
Scottie had a great game yesterday, the series is up for 
grabs, and Harper is still out. Pip is lookin good, and da
Bulls are on their game. 

And Jackson is the best coach in the NBA.

josh 

Josh

I'm speaking strickly about Pippen's actions on Saturday (?).  I know that he 
has the rings, the good season,. blh-blah-blah.  I'm saying that he is an a** 
hole in his whole reaction to the Kokoc thing, and that he is more interested 
in himself than his team.

As to a ploy - I don't think so Tim - err, Josh.

=Bob=

    
      Phil Jackson is another one who should genuflect towards Michael.
     The Bulls to a man have to prove that they can win it all without
     Michael before they can shake the "supporting cast" label. Scottie
     sure didn't help *his* case with his actions Friday. It does help
     Chicago (and everyone else) that there is no dominant team left
     in the playoffs, escpecially in the East. This baby is wide open.

   > The Bulls to a man have to prove that they can win it all without    
   > Michael before they can shake the "supporting cast" label.
    
    Does Worthy then, have to genuflect toward Magic?  McHale toward Bird?
    Isiah to Laimbeer? <--8^)

    Worthy genuflects in Houston, and Magic in the best elevators and 
    boardrooms of the world.

    Pip screwed up, but. I'm sure not many reading this note can relate to
    a guy's competitivenes occasionally causing him to do stupid things.
    Pip's contribution to da Bulls should not be challenged.
    He appears very sorry, immediately apologized to his teammates and coach.
    Came out yesterday and led his team to a big victory.
    Let's give this guy the benefit of the doubt. And let's move on.
    
    Gregg
    

>                   -< Worthy was a COG! Cogs genuflect. :-) >-


That's better than being a CLOG....  We've got a CLOG in our group.
If I could get it to run fast enough I'd use it for target practice, but
it's against the rules to bring guns to work....   too bad......
    

        Well said Ken.

    Basketball is in big_money_ville right now.  As it always follows the
    players get too hung up on $$$ than the game.  It will eventually ruin
    the sport.  I like the SI article on Buck and the new Yankees.  They
    got rid of all the motor mouths and instead of a bunch of stat hungry
    individuals they have a team.  More people ought to realize this is
    where the game should be, and if they ruin it, it takes money OUT of
    their pockets.

    The game should come first.  You agree to a contract, its a contract.
    Play hard until you get another chance to re-negotiate.  If you play
    better than expected, the franchise won out, if not, the player wins
    out (in terms of the negotiated pay).  Playing well only helps the
    guy in his next negotiation.  That type of Pippen_Crap only takes
    payola out of his pocket next time 'round.

    Go_Bulls!

    Chip_GSH_Bach

 How many years yoy been waiting for that opening Mac????????

 ;^)

Didja ever wish BOTH teams could lose a series?  As much as I hate the Knicks,
it did my heart good to see Mr. Team, Scottie Pippen, go totally cold in the 
fourth quarter (read: Crunch time, Scottie baaaabbbbiiiieee), and see him 
commit the key foul to lose the game for his team.  Meanwhile, Tony Kukoc was
a driving force in the fourth, and did his part to pull it out.

Nice goin' Scottie.

=Bob=

    
     Even funnier is that Scottie definitely got hacked at the
    other end on the final play but didn't get the call. Haha.

|    Even funnier is that Scottie definitely got hacked at the
|    other end on the final play but didn't get the call. Haha.

Yea, Po' Scottie.  I guess even the refs are tired of his act.  I've seen the
refs let fouls a lot harder than the one he committed go at the end of games.

    Patrick gagged big time,but a TarHeel got him off the hook.

    Correction to the previous note:
    
    Patrick gagged big time, but the ref got him off the hook.
    
    There, that's better.
    
    NAZZ

=Bob= re: no team winning
Yup, if the Celtics were playing the Bulls
            Cowboys playing the Redskins


Fouls that were not called: 
  Charles Smith at the end of game 5 last year.
  Pete Myers on Wilkins in game 3 in Clevland this year

Fouls that have been called:
  Chris Morris got the call with 1.2 seconds left in Nets-Knicks series
  Jordan got a call in game 6 in the 1989-90 playoffs (right after Tucker
        got a 4 point play.

Sometimes the call is made, sometimes it isn't. Can't really debate it since
there is ZERO consistency.

The Crazy Met

    
    Craze,
    Charles Smith was *not* fouled as the replay showed.
    So you is incorrect is stating that this was a "foul that was not
    called". I was surprised that the call was not made last year giveb
    the setting, etc. That was a pro-Michael non-call. Now I'm not
    surprised that the foul *was* called last night. Ya see the silver
    slipper is on the other foot this year..
    
    MikeL