Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    The '71 Pirates and A's met here yesterday for a Dream Game.  The Bucs
    pulled it out 4-3.

Mike,

Was Willie Stargell there?  Got any more info on who was there?  How 'bout a
box score.

Bill

    Manny Sanguillen and Dock Ellis were on the news highlights last night. 
    I'll have to check the paper for the rest.
    
    Dick Williams, Blue Moon Odom, and Bert Campinaris for there for the
    A's.
    
    Mike

    
    
    	Did Clemente show up?
    
    

    Yabbut McMahon's been traded!
    
    hope that helped too!
    
    I remain,
    kev_fo_an_ex-noter!
    Kev
    

    It won't be a problem against the new-look Mets, but they'll be more
    fun to watch.

    
    
>No, Goose, Clemente's dead.
    
    
    Are you sure?  I've heard that he has been seen working at a 7-11
    located on the outskirts of Miami..
    
    

    Ya know how sports teams sorta "adopt" a song and use it as their theme
    fer the year, like in 1979 when the Bucs used "We Are Family"???
    
    Well, I heard today that the Bucs have adopted a song fer the year that
    appropriately represents the new direction this team took over the
    off-season, thanks to Pres. Mark Sauer and GM Ted Simmons, that song
    is:
    
    
    "Send In the Clowns"
    
    
    Schnortt Schitt Schlepps
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Its better than the Red SOx have picked this year...
    The date they plan on winning its first World Series...
    
    
    "In the Year 2525"......
    
    REK

Is it the fault of the Prez and Gm of the bucs that they can't afford to sign
their own players after they reach superstar plateau?

I commend the Bucs for being fiscaly responsible. Although having ateam go 
chapter 11 might be the 2x4 upside the head that baseball needs about now.


Metz
 

	In the year 2525, if Gorman's still alive,
	If the Red Sox survive we may find...

	Now it's been 10 thousand years,
	Sox fans have cried a million tears,

	For what they always knew,
	Their Red Sox were blew.

	But through eternal night,
	The twinkling of starlight.

	So very far away,
	1919 seems like only yesterday.

                                              
> Is it the fault of the Prez and Gm of the bucs that they can't afford to sign
> their own players after they reach superstar plateau?
    
    It is when they pass up the chance to sign their *star* players to
    longterm deals and finally end up, when they're under the gun, offering 
    more than the player originally wanted in the first place.  Bonds might 
    have been bluffing at the beginning of the 1991 season, but probably not,
    and Drabek was absolutely signable right up through the end of last
    season.  Bobby Bonilla was the guy who jerked the Pirates around the
    most; unfortunately, he was the player they paid the most attention to
    even though he was the one the Bucs could most easily afford to lose.
    
    Look at what the Mariners have wisely done with their franchise player,
    Ken Griffey Jr.  Can you blame them?  Can they afford to lose such a
    player?  Pirates management doesn't look at it that way; they seem to
    think they'll make more money finishing back in the pack in front of a
    million people than by contending in front of two million.
    
> I commend the Bucs for being fiscaly responsible. Although having ateam go 
> chapter 11 might be the 2x4 upside the head that baseball needs about now.
    
    By the way, if the Pirates are so fiscally responsible, why did
    they go out and sign *stiffs* like John Candelaria, Tim Foley,
    Alejandro Pena, Lonnie Smith, whom at any price would be overpaid, even
    after dumping or losing more productive second-tier players like Gary 
    Redus and Alex Cole?  Why did they trade or blunder away half their top 
    minor league prospects (Chamberlain, Alou, Greene, Miller, Fajardo) for 
    players like Steve Buechele or other slightly more helpful high-salaried 
    pitchers like Zane Smith and Danny Jackson?  Jim Leyland is a brilliant 
    manager who in the past few years has succeeded in spite of a front 
    office in utter chaos...
    
    glenn
    

              
    > (damn, cain't remember the name of the "rookie"
    > first/third baseman)
    
    Kevin Young.  Probably the best hitting prospect of the three ROYs--
    there going to have to give three awards this year, these guys are so
    good-- that will save the Bucs this season (with Carlos Garcia and Al 
    Martin).  Right.
    
    glenn
    

	I heard, from a source that wished to remain nameless, that Zane
	Smith showed up at spring training with a pitching arm of a 90
	year old.  Apparently the surgery/recovery in the off season was
	not too successful.


	Bill

>	I heard, from a source that wished to remain nameless, that Zane
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Bill, it's okay.  WE won't bash you for being close personal friends with
Billy Ray Cyrus.....8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

	Hey, I thought I told yunz guys that I didn't want to talk music
	in here!

	Bill

    Smith had surgery to repair a tear on his rotator cuff and is still
    having pain while throwing, BUT, according to the trainers, he's going
    to have to work thru the pain of stretching scar tissue and build
    strength in the arm before the pain will go away.  He is supposed to
    start throwing from the mound late this week.
    
    JaKe
    

	Thanks JaKe.  I was wonderin' do you still have that address for the 
	Pirate's newsletter thang?  I think you gave it to me last year, but
	I cain't find it.

	Bill

    Lessee, somehow I'm trying to figger out if Harding "Pete" Peterson,
    who almost single handedly ruined baseball in Pittsburgh  about 10 or
    so years ago, with such notables as Sixto Lezcano, George Hendrick,
    Steve Kemp, Sammy Khalifa, and a host of others being the free agents
    he brought in and paid major bucks too just to compile the worst record
    in baseball fer a year or three, is somehow related to Ted Simmons.
    
    Simmons has brought in such has beens as Lonnie SMith and Alejandro
    Pena this year.  Now, word comes from Pirate training camp the Pena has
    been ordered to stop throwing because the elbow that sidelined him
    lasted year with the Braves is in horrible condition.  X-Rays and scans
    have determined that there is a pre existing condition that was the
    fault lasted year, and he may require surgery to correct it, and will
    probably miss this season because of it, while collecting over $1
    million of the Pirates money fer sitting on his dead ass.  
    
    Sheeeeeeeez, shades of the '80s all over again.
    
    JaKe
    

    Did Ted Simmons gradiate from the Lou Gorman school_a_management?
    
    MikeL
    

    I think Simmons might still be working for the Cardinals, or at least
    he thinks he is.  Even still, I expect the Pirates to win more games 
    this year at half the price than either the Red Sox, Mets, Cubs, or
    Dodgers-- basically your overpaid, overrated large-market
    underachievers.  Small consolation, I know...
    
    glenn
    

	Read last night that Zane Smith's arm is improving dramaticly.  That
	doesn't mean he will be ready anytime soon, but it is a bit of good
	news, something we haven't heard much of lately.

	Billl

    
    >	Read last night that Zane Smith's arm is improving dramaticly.  That
    >	doesn't mean he will be ready anytime soon, but it is a bit of good
    >	news, something we haven't heard much of lately.
    
    That is good news.  I think that the Pirates' pitching is going to be
    okay this year if the Zaner holds up.  They've got some decent kids to
    fill in there, too, if they can figure out which ones are the keepers.
    A guy named Brett Backlund was drafted in the lower rounds last year 
    but just blew right through the minor league competition at each level 
    last summer, and may make the team.  Steve Cooke and Paul Wagner are 
    the other rookie possibilities.  Some combination of Wakefield/Smith/
    Tomlin/Walk/Neagle/Cooke/Wagner/Backlund should be able to get a
    reasonable job done.
    
    The offense looks like it'll have some problems, though...
    
    glenn
    

>    A guy named Brett Backlund was drafted in the lower rounds last year 
>    but just blew right through the minor league competition at each level 
>    last summer, and may make the team.  

     I don't know what round he was drafted in, but Brett Backlund was the
     highest rated pitching prospect in the Big Ten last year.  He did have
     health problems in the late winter of 1992, which may have caused his
     draft prognosis to be a little lower.  No problems have materialized
     so far, however.

    Did his dad wrassle?
    

    As far as Alejandro Peni...er Pena goes, the Bucs never had their
    doctors examine him.  They took the word of Pena's personal physician,
    who said Pena's arm was perfect.  WOnder how much of the $1.35 mil that
    Pena is going to enjoy this year fer doing nuthin the doctor gets fer
    falsifying the report????
    
    Sucks, truly sucks.
    
    JaKe
    

    Al Martin:  Who is he, and what are the Buc's plans for him?

    >>   <<< Note 34.30 by ROYALT::ASHE "Come on Eileen, ta-loorayah.." >>>

    >>Al Martin:  Who is he, and what are the Buc's plans for him?
    
    He's a rookie, and the Bucs have BIG plans fer him!
    
    
    Actually, I think he's the guy they plan to play in left field now,
    with Lonnie SMith giving him a rest every now and then.(Until it is
    found out that Smith has some physical problem that'll cause him to sit
    out the season and draw his $1 mil fer the year without doing a damned
    thing.)
    
    JaKe
    

>    Did his dad wrassle?


Bob Backlund lives in my hometown.  In fact Walt, he lives about 6 miles
from the Sawmill....  (If indeed he's still living there)


'Saw    

    Hey, Brett Backlund has absolutely no association whatsoever with 
    wrasslin', real or WWF!  Take it to the Broons note!
    
    glenn
    

>Backlund coached real wrestling for a couple of seasons at Rocky Hill (Ct.) HS.
>My wife's cousin had him as a coach.  Told the kids he hated the WWF, only did 
>it for the money.  Guess he needed the money.

Hey, did okay for himself -- has a nice house.

Rocky Hill is where they're moving us, which is still a long way from
Pittsburgh and the Pirates....


'Saw

    The Bucs won their first Grapefruit League game of the season, 11-10
    over the ChiSox, twas a real pitching duel.  ALbert Martin, the guy
    whose supposed to make us fergit Barry "Wah-Wah" had a pinch hit homer
    and a triple(BFD at this time of the season, just do it once the season
    starts).
    
    JaKe
    

	Sheesh JaKe, what was that p-name yunz was sportin 'bout pessimests?


	Billl

    
    I caught the first few innings of the Red Sox-Pirates spring training
    game on tape delay last night, because I wanted to see what this kid
    Brett (no relation to Bob) Backlund looked like.  He did not impress,
    although he only ended up surrendering 1 run in 3 innings.  While
    Backlund has nice breaking stuff, he was very wild, and wild high.  I
    expect Backlund will start the season in Buffalo.
    
    A non-prospect lefthander named Rich Robertson came in and got his
    clock cleaned by the Sox, especially by Ivan Calderon, who hit a long 
    homer to left.  Final was 5-2, Red Sox.
    
    I hope to take in a few Pirates' games in Bradenton in two weeks,
    because with the young guys around it will be interesting seeing them
    fight for starting spots.  That and the fact that from what I've read, 
    McKechnie Field in Bradenton is one of the few remaining charming old 
    spring training ballparks left.  When the Bucs head north to Three
    Rivers Stadium for the real deal it's like a futuristic kick in the 
    teeth, environment-wise...
    
    glenn
     

Glenn,

	I'll be expecting daily reports here.


Billl

    Players might be different, but results the same (sort of)
    
    See the Red Sox note  8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    Andy Van Slyke to undergo arthroscopic surgery on his knee today, will 
    miss 2-3 weeks.
    
    
    
    JaKe
    

    It's such a nice day here, I think they're gonna play 2.

    
>>You ain't just whistlin' Dixie!  We'er apposed to get anywhere from 1 to 2 feet
>>of dat purty white stuff tonight.
    
    And probably some snow, too!!!!!
    
    It's supposed to snow at least 18" here, and they said if the direction
    of this storm changes, we could get up to 3 feet of snow.  Gawsh, that
    would be BEEEEEEEEEEEyOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUtEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEfull.
    
    JaKe
    

    And in all this snow, we'll probably lose our 12 pound hairy rat of a
    dog again.  Or, have to clear a path thru the yard so she cain take a
    dump.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    When did Van Slyke develop this knee problem?!  Hell, he's already a
    walking medical miracle with his ability to play with through the back 
    injury.
    
    One of the problems with the prognosis of this Pirates' team is that
    along with Bonds, Van Slyke enjoyed a near-career season last year.
    He can't be expected to do that again, and with the other holes being
    filled by rooks, who's going to pick up the slack and improve their
    play?  Merced?  Bell (another career season in 1992)?  Certainly not
    Jeff King...
    
    glenn
    

Is this from a recent injury or leftover problems from last season?


Billl

    Hey MAC, ya really gots this note screwed up now.  Let ALLIED VAN LINES
    do the moving, ok????    Many (8^)*'s
    
    Re Van Slyke.  The knee injury is old, but is just flaring up again, as
    far as I know.  
    
    Re his "career year" lasted year.  The back problem has forced Van
    Slyke to abandon hitting fer power, and the result was his hitting over
    .320 lasted year.
    
    JaKe
    

    I've heard people mention Mazeroski's Baseball Guide.  Is this somthing
    you can only get at the larger newstands?  I've never heard of it, but
    am interested in picking one up.  Anyone know an address or a newstand
    that carries it?
    
    Billl

    Who's playing 1B and RF?  King and Merced?
    

    
    >> <<< Note 34.59 by ROYALT::ASHE "T. Kennedy: Good senator, bad date" >>>

    >>Who's playing 1B and RF?  King and Merced?
    
    1B  Kevin Young
    
    RF  Orlando Merced
    
    With Young playing at first, the left half of the infield will be King
    and Bell, who are both good to very good defensively.  BUT, it will
    leave the right side of the infield with Young and Garcia, so anything
    hit to the right may be an adventure, to say the least.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    

>>    With Young playing at first, the left half of the infield will be King
>>    and Bell, who are both good to very good defensively.  BUT, it will
>>    leave the right side of the infield with Young and Garcia, so anything
>>    hit to the right may be an adventure, to say the least.


	I don't remember Young from last year, but as I recall Garcia was
	pretty sharp at 2nd.  Nowhere near as instictive as Lind, but still
	looked to be above average.

	How has the pitching been doin' in spring training?

	Billl

    Garcia will do possibly one of two things with the Pirates this year:
    
    	1.) Make us forget Jose Lind
    	2.) Make us REMEMBER Sammy Khalifa
    
    Pitching so far has been fair, no standouts, nobody absolutely
    horrible.
    
    JaKe
    

>    Garcia will do possibly one of two things with the Pirates this year:
    
Garcia Y Vega makes a helluva cigar!

    
    > Garcia will do possibly one of two things with the Pirates this year:
    > 
    > 	1.) Make us forget Jose Lind
    > 	2.) Make us REMEMBER Sammy Khalifa
    
    So far all three of the kids (Garcia, Martin, Young) have looked decent 
    this spring, but Garcia particularly impressed me in the two games I 
    got to see in Bradenton.  Garcia was actually pulling *line drives* to 
    left field for hits (!), something Jose Lind probably accomplished half 
    a dozen times in his Pirate career (in comparison to those Tony
    Pena-inspired dink shots over first base).  I think he's currently
    hitting .300 on the spring.  I also saw him make one sparkling diving
    backhand play to force a man at second, and he can turn the DP.  Which
    all goes to show you that he'll probably be an abysmal failure when he
    gets to Pittsburgh.  ;-)
    
    Bradenton's McKechnie Field is a charming little park right in the
    middle of a busy downtown neighborhood, with an impressive facade 
    and grandstand pillars on the outside, and small separated seating 
    sections on the inside, where the cheap seats serve as the suntan
    area, of course.  It's the oldest spring training park, but apparently
    the entire place was renovated last summer, because while it looks old
    in design everything is either brand new or has been freshly painted 
    (as opposed to what I had been told to expect).  A squadron of
    enthusiatic senior citizens pretty much run the entire place on a 
    volunteer basis.  This initially caused some problems when we tried to 
    park, but other than that it was kinda neat.
    
    The Bucs lost both games I saw by one run.  Timmy Wakefield didn't 
    have his knuckler in one game and got taken all over the ballpark by 
    Jose Canseco and assorted other Texas no-names, which is gonna happen 
    occasionally with a knuckleballer, but hopefully not too often.  In 
    the other game Phillie leftfielder Milt Thompson jacked Denny Neagle 
    out in the 9th inning to win it, but only after my brother and I had 
    been riding the guy for several frames from the leftfield stands for 
    launching a throw into the stands to score two runs, and playing a 
    couple of other hits tentatively (you know what they say about the 
    best way to shut up abusive fans).  Late in the games, Jim Leyland 
    played a slew of guys from low A-ball who aren't on the Pirates' 
    roster, whose uniforms didn't fit, who the PA announcer couldn't
    identify, etc.  All things considered the Pirates looked better losing 
    twice than the Red Sox did in winning the two of their games we took 
    in, which isn't saying much. 
    
    In summary, a healthy number of large beers were consumed in the warm
    Florida sun and much pleasure was had...
    
    glenn
     

    Zane Smith was placed on the 15-day DL today.
    
    JaKe
    

    Tonite starts what the Bucs are advertising as "'Burgh Ball II".  Tim
    Wakefield, knuckleballer extraordinaire(at least lasted seasno) gets
    the starting nod in the "new" intimate Three Rivers Stadium(about as
    "intimate" as taking a dump in the middle of Grand Central Station
    during rush hour).
    
    I think it should be billed a AAA 1/2 ball, cause they gots 7 rookies
    on this team, and 4th place would be a blessing, IMHO.
    
    JaKe
    

	Hey JaKe, any chance of getting some updates on the game just in case
	KDKA doesn't quite reach Cow Hampshire tonight?

	billl

    billl,
    
    Only problem is the radio here in the office got dumped by some
    cleaning person type bozo, and now it don't work.  Gotta "schedule" a
    call so's I cain get outta here and listen to it in the car.
    
    I'll see what I cain do, though.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs scored one in the first, Albert Martin led off with a double,
    moved ta third on Jay Bell sacrifice, scored on Jeff King single.
    
    End of 2-1/2, Bucs up 1-0, Wakefield knuckler dropping Padres like
    flies.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Wakefield, thru 7 innings, had only given up 2 hits, but had walked
    about a hundred. Score was 6-3 in eighth lasted I heard.
    
    JaKe
    

    Well, try S-O-C-K-S  :-))
    
    Actually the "k" shouldn't be there. Que is not pronounced Kay. Nor is
    it pronounced Key. Que is like saying Kent only without the "nt"
    
    Ben

	Anybody have a clue which end of the 8-3 the Bucs were on?


	billl

                                                  
    Pirates won, 9-4.  JaKe's "AAA+" kids Martin, Young, and Garcia went
    2-5 (2B, 3B), 2-5 (2B, 4 RBI), and 1-3, respectively.  Wakefield went 7
    innings, 2 ER, 9 Ks, 9 BBs.  Not a bad way to start...
    
    glenn
    

    Actually, Young had a bases loaded triple.
    
    Wakefield was perturbed by the 9 walks, but he also had the Padres
    swinging off balance, hence the 9 strikeouts.  
    
    San Diego was one of the only NL teams that didn't face Wakefiled
    lasted year in his rookie season.
    
    John Candelaria had his first save as a Pirate since 1985.  Candelaria
    pitched in the eight and ninth.
    
    I just hope the AAA+ kids do 1/2 as good as they did lasted night.  But
    I don't EXPECT them to.  Hell, it was only one game, but it WAS fun to
    listen to.
    
    JaKe
    

    re.71 &.72   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
       

    All three of those kids are NL-style *athletes* (not 'Saw/Rich
    Gedman-types) who additionally put up strong batting numbers in the
    minor leagues.  I honestly believe that these guys are real talents.
    I think you'll see one of them surprise everyone, one perform as 
    expected (average ML level), and another maybe disappoint slightly.  
    I don't think you'll see three busts.  As I said earlier, Kevin Young 
    is my pre-season pick as NL Rookie of the Year...
    
    glenn
    

    re.77
    
    Lest we fergit that Barry "Wah-Wah" Bonds hit .223 in his rookie year,
    and has had to wear a hat size 223 ever since to house the ego in his
    haid.
    
    JaKe
    

>    All three of those kids are NL-style *athletes* (not 'Saw/Rich
>    Gedman-types) who additionally put up strong batting numbers in the

Hey!  I resemble that remark!

I'll have you know I was a pretty good baseball player when I was little.
If I'd have been right handed, I've have been an excellent catcher, but
I was left-handed so that meant first base.

True, I never would have stolen many bases, but the way I hit, I didn't
need to worry about stealing -  I'd end up on second or third most
every time......

Don't let this widebody fool ya 8^)


'Saw    

>>True, I never would have stolen many bases, but the way I hit, I didn't
>>need to worry about stealing -  I'd end up on second or third most
>>every time......
    
    Ya put that LardButt behind it, eh 'Saw????
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    I were right handed throwing, but batted from either side.  Good
    defense, fair at the plate, S L O W on the bases.
    
    JaKe
    

>    Ya put that LardButt behind it, eh 'Saw????
    
It's all in the hips and in driving through the ball....

fw    

    
>>It's all in the hips and in driving through the ball....
    
    Hail, wif the hips you and I gots, we should be able to crank the ball
    out like the Babe hisself did, right???
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Fer billl
    
    Bucs leading 5-2 at end of 5.  Jeff King has two RBI's in the game, and
    Andy VanSlyke has a homer.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won 5-4, Stan Belinda actually came in and got a save, will
    miracles never cease??
    
    JaKe
    

Asfar as I'm concerned Belinda can get 50 saves this year; be even better if thats
all the Bucs won this year as well.

The Crazy Met

    
    > As far as I'm concerned Belinda can get 50 saves this year; be even 
    > better if thats all the Bucs won this year as well.
    
    Sad, TCM, sad.  Not just the part about having to root for an enemy
    because of rotis, but the fact that if you had pick one you went 
    after "Skippy" Belinda.  Everyone knows that he's really only effective
    against the Mets...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Well to tell the truth I didn't really go after Belinda. He was on my
    team through some trade or late pickup last season. If you look
    at the NL the top relievers are hard to find. Dibble - hopefully,
    Lee Smith, Randy Meyers, Franco is a ?, Worrell is also a ?, Jones,
    Beck who knows for sure, SD, Atlanta have none, Wetteland and Williams;
    expansions there are Harvey and Holmes. Fairly slim pickings. So when
    you have a guy who may give you 15 saves a year, 'ya keep 'em.
    
    Of course if Belinda was in a save situation against the Mets I would
    want him to blow the save.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs beat the Giants lasted night, 6-5 with help from Kevin Young's 2
    run homer in the eighth to bring them back from a 5-4 deficit.
    
    Wah-Wah had two hits, 1 rbi, and scored 3 runs in his return to the
    'Burgh.
    
    JaKe
    

    Giants beat Bucs 12-5 today. Saw that Bonds made a nice leaping catch
    in the outfield.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs lost yesterday as Tim Wakefield was wild again, and now has given
    up 14 walks in 14 innings.
    
    After the game, the Bucs released catcher Mike "Spanky" LaValliere to
    make room for pitcher Dave Otto.
    
    Bucs are now 3-2.
    
    JaKe
    

	Did the Bocs send Spanky to the minors or what?  This is a real
	bummer.  Since he comes from Manchester, NH, the local rag would
	put a lot more Bucco news on the sports page.  

	
	billl

    
    >	Did the Bocs send Spanky to the minors or what?  This is a real
    >	bummer.  Since he comes from Manchester, NH, the local rag would
    >	put a lot more Bucco news on the sports page.  
    
    Unconditional release of a two-year guaranteed contract, as I
    understand it.  What's the deal, JaKe?  Has Spanky really slipped from
    just last season, due to injury or something?  He was still a top
    defensive catcher as of last year...
    
    glenn
    

    
    I think something funny is going on.  I saw quotes from a bunch of
    players who were urinated that they let him go.  Didn't seem like it
    made a lot of sense.  I think he'll be picked up once he clears
    waivers.
    
    brews

    I read an article about it this AM.  
    
    Seems the Bucs thought Tom Prince could hold up better should Don
    Slaught get any kind of injury that kept him out fer more than a week
    or so.  Spanky was V E R Y injury prone, recently, plus came into
    spring training carrying about 15 or 20 extra pounds.
    
    The Bucs are trying to send out a message that if you don't take care
    of yourself, physically, they don't want ya.  Zane Smith is said to
    have been very lax on keeping up with his rehab over the winter, and
    therefore ain't ready to pitch.
    
    Other factors are that Spanky's defense has slipped.  He's
    prodominantly a singles hitter who:
    
       -Can't be bunted up to second
       -Can't go from first to third on a single
       -Can't score from second on anything less than a double
       -basically just clogs up the basepaths.
    
    He had one start this season and ended up hurting himself.
    
    If the backup catcher was anyone other than Tom Prince, I might be a
    little more supportive of this move, but Prince has worn a groove
    between here and Buffalo, due to so many trips back to the minors, and
    I don't see anything short of an act of God making him a REAL catcher.
    
    If the Bucs had sent Prince back to the minors, he would have ha d to
    clear waivers first, as he's out of options, and the Bucs felt someone
    else would have picked him up.
    
    JaKe
    

    Yet this still seems to be yet another move where "new" Pirates'
    management (the management team for this week) is undoing the work 
    of "old" management (last week's management team), as with the 
    Buechele maneuverings (trade prospects for him, re-sign him to a
    ridiculous contract extension, then dump his contract for that of 
    another highly-paid stiff).  Just a year ago LaValliere was signed 
    to a fairly lucrative 3-year deal, and now it looks like the Pirates
    are just going to eat that money! 
    
    LaValliere may be not be the kind of guy who can catch 150 games but
    he was perfect as a lefty platoon catcher for about 100 games a season. 
    Pirate pitchers' ERAs have also been about a run a game better with 
    LaValliere than with Slaught.  You'd think he'd be a valuable guy to
    have around to break in the young pitchers.  Or at least that's what
    the Pirates said just a year ago...  
    
    glenn
    

    The Bucs have to eat about 4.25 mil fer the remainder of LaValliere's
    contract.
    
    JaKe
    

    Lessee, Monday night, Dave Otto made his firsted NL start, and got his
    firsted NL win, as he pitched 6+ innings, giving up 2 runs on 4 hits.
    Stan Belinda got his second save of the season.
    
    
    Lasted night, The Bucs beat the Padres, who they are now 4-0 against
    this year, 6-3.  Paul Wagner got his firsted career save.
    
    Kevin Young is on a tear, entering lasted night's game, he had 9 RBI,
    tied wif Dave Winfield fer the Major League lead. Just hope his
    production stays near this level all year.  Don't know what he had
    lasted night, if any.
    
    Bucs are now 5-2.  The common concensus around the Burgh was that if
    the Bucs could avoid big problems in the early part of the season,
    being in the weak NL East, they'd have a chance if the young players
    matured reasonably during the season, and didn't get discouraged by
    getting keelt in the early part of the season.   Only problem is that
    the Bucs have to play someone other than the Padres this year.
    
    The Bucs will go ~37 games into the season before playing a team from
    the NL East.
    
    JaKe
    

    Mets and Bucs should make a deal. Mets get to play the Bucs games
    against the Rockies, Bucs get the Mets games against the Padres. Mets
    beat the Rockies 6-3 to go 4-0 against them this season. Bucs beat
    Padres 9-4 to go 5-0 against them this season.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    The Bucs beat the Padres again today, 5-4 in 13 innings.  The Bucs are
    now 7-2, 6-0 .vs. the Padres.
    
    Carlos Garcia had 3 rbi, Stan Belinda got his 4th save.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Too bad for Bucco fans that they can't play the Padres all the time. In
    fact they only have 6 games left with them this year. Pirates got swept
    by the Dodgers in LA. Dodgers had a 6-2 lead in the 9th in tonights
    game. Bucs came back to 6-4, 2 outs, bases loaded, Van Slyke up. On a
    3-1 count Van Slyke swung on a pitch out of the strike zone and popped
    up to end the game. Thats the kind of ending I like to see from the 
    *ucs.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I agree wif ya 100%, TCM.  The Bucs are what, 6-0 .vs. the Padres, and
    1-5 .vs. SF and LA???
    
    JaKe
    

	JaKe, you may want to reread TCC's, er I mean TCM', last reply
	before you say you agree 100%.  What are ya rootin' for Cleveland
	this year?


	billl

Bill, JaKe was agreeing with .98. I understood that, but I guess you
Pitt originals need some extra help :-)

The Crazy Met

    Sheez, Billl, it takes a Mucking Fets fan to set ya straight, you
    should be ashamed of yoself.
    
    JaKe
    

    'ya know JaKe, Bill still hasn't explained about that ND fan yesterday.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    So, as someone who couldn't be there, what is the story on the ND
    fan????
    
    Anybody wanna handle this??
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs shut out by Reds tonite, 5-0.
    
    Team is rapidly playing down to their talent.
    
    JaKe
    

    I'm pretty sure Bill wanted to handle the ND fan, but you'd have to ask
    him...
    

	Suffice to say that she looked a helluva lot better in her ND
	outfit than MikeL did.


	billl

    
    >	Suffice to say that she looked a helluva lot better in her ND
    >	outfit than MikeL did.
    
    So what did she look like after MikeL took her outfit?  Wow, I guess I
    hit the road too early...
    
    glenn
    

    Bucs lost lasted night too the Reds, 8-7 in 12 innings.
    
    Bucs led 5-4 in the eight and Stan "REmember Cabrera" Belinda gave up a
    3 run dinger.  The Bucs tied it in the bottom fo the ninth, but John
    Candelaria gave up a single, and three walks in the 12th to force home
    the winning run.
    
    Bucs are 6-0 .vs. the Padres and 1-7 vs everycody else(Sf, La, and Cin
    so far).
    
    Hope the Bucs pull their heads out of their rectums FAST.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs broke their 5 game losing streak tonight, overcoming a 3 run
    first inning by the Reds, winning 5-4.
    
    It marked the return to Three Rivers Stadium of foromer Bucs 20 game
    winner John Smiley.  Smiley gave up 5 runs in 5-2/3 innings and took
    the loss.
    
    JaKe
    

    Time Wakefield got the "W" lasted night.  He pitched the complete game. 
    He gave up 3 runs in the first, on three hits and some walks., then
    only gave up one hit the  rest of the way, and that was a pinch hit
    home run.
    
    He did load the bases on walks in the ninth, but Leyland shyed away
    from Stan Belinda, cause the guy due up has hit Belinda pretty good(who
    hasn't) in his career.  
    
    Wakefield again(third time this season I think) walked 9 batters.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Bucs lost lasted night to the Astros, 4-2.
    
    Astros got a good game from Swindell while the Bucs got a good effort
    by Dave Otto.
    
    JaKe
    

    And again today 8-4.  So I guess there's no chance of the Bucs playin'
    the Padres for all the remainin' games, huh?
    
    billl

    Don't we wish, billl??
    
    Bucs had a 4-3 lead into the eighth and gave up 5 runs to blow it
    again.
    
    I hat to say it, but it's already looking like Leyland's firsted year
    when the Bucs went sumthin like 59-103.
    
    Bucs record is 8-9, which is the first time since 1991 that the Bucs
    have had a losing record, when it was 3-4.  Streak of something like
    350+ regular season days wif a non-losing record, longest current
    streak.
    
    JaKe
    

    Well they got back to .500 ball today with a 7-2 woopin' of the Astros.
    
    
    billl

    Bucs lost lasted night to the Braves, 3-2.  Wakefield took the loss.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    > Bucs lost lasted night to the Braves, 3-2.  Wakefield took the loss.
    
    I think he needs to walk more guys, preferably 10 or more.  The Braves
    in particular seem to have a problem with that approach,
    psychologically...
    
    glenn
    

    The Bucs had two big come from behind wins this weekend over the
    Expos(ed) here at Three Rivers Washbasin over the weekend.
    
    BOth games(Sat and Sun) they came from behind in the ninth inning to
    tie the game, then won in extra innings.
    
    Andy Van Slyke, who is batting .296, leading the team in Hr's and Rbi,
    had a good weekend, hitting two home runs and driving in 4 runs.
    
    In Saturday night's game, Van Slyke tied the game with a homer in the
    ninth, then Tom Foley(I think) knocked in the winning run in the 10th.
    
    yesterday, with the Bucs trailing 5-3 into the bottom of the ninth,
    with two outs Leyland sent Al Martin, who is hurting wif rib problems,
    up to pinch hit, and Martin delivered with a home run. Tom Foley
    followed with a single, and was replaced by Carlos Garcia as the pinch
    runner.  Jay Bell worked Wetteland(sp?) to a 3-2 pitch, and drove the
    fastball into left field, where Moises Alou was playing about a mile
    off of the line, and had to come way over to get the ball which was hit
    to straight away left.  Garcia, who was running on the 3-2 pitch wif
    two outs, scored easily, tying the game.
    
    Lloyd MacClendon got on in the 11th(didn't see that part of the game),
    and got to second, where Andy Van Slyke knocked him in with a single to
    center with the game winner.
    
    Bucs are now 15-14 and in third place in the NL East.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won lasted night, 8-4.  Dave Otto, who was the starting pitcher,
    led the Bucs with 3 rbi, but wasn't around to get the win.
    
    JaKe
    

    Randy Tomlin is now 9-0 lifetime against the Mets. Bucs win 9-4. It was
    3-0 Bucs, Mets closed to 3-2. Bucs got 2 more, Mets got 2 more in the
    5th. Bucs then pulled away - not sure when, reception on WFAN was not
    good tonight.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    >>5th. Bucs then pulled away - not sure when, reception on WFAN was not
    >>good tonight.
    
    The Bucs scored 4 in the top of the ninth to finish off the MEts fer
    the game.
    
    
    JaKe
    

The guy doing morning sports yesterday morning gave the day's schedule
as follows:

		Red Sox host Toronto
		Yankees take on the Twins
		The Bucs beat the Mets tonight at 7:30.....


8^)


'Saw

    
    >		The Bucs beat the Mets tonight at 7:30.....
    
    Yes, after Roger Clemens and his ghastly new haircut took a beating
    last night, at least the Pirates' shellacking of Doc Gooden brought a
    small smile back to my face...
    
    glenn
    

>    >		The Bucs beat the Mets tonight at 7:30.....
>    
>    Yes, after Roger Clemens and his ghastly new haircut took a beating
>    last night, at least the Pirates' shellacking of Doc Gooden brought a
>    small smile back to my face...
    
You know, I forgot to add one word to that.  The sports guy said

	"The Buc WILL beat the Mets tonight at 7:30"



Glenn, I haven't seen Rog's new haircut.  Can you describe it?  Is it
a crewcut?

'Saw    

    
> Glenn, I haven't seen Rog's new haircut.  Can you describe it?  Is it
> a crewcut?
    
    Sort of, I guess.  That's what I thought at first, and then I noticed 
    this clump of hair protruding out from the back of his hat.  I haven't 
    seen it with his hat off yet; it might be a variation on a Mohawk for
    all I know.
    
    glenn
    

    It's longer on top, sort of like a white=guy fade...

I didn't know that white guys could do a fade.....8^)

Thanks JaKe, I knew I could count on you for that information.

The Crazy Met

    Well, you look at it and tell me what the deal is... he looks like the
    Big Boss Man...
    

    
>>Thanks JaKe, I knew I could count on you for that information.
    
    You're quite welcome.
    
    BTW, lasted night, whilst the Bucs were scoring those 9th inning runs,
    Shea Stadium was doing a chant, which said:
    
    
    "DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEY, DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEY
    WE WANT DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEY"
    
    
    Think they're fed up wif Jeff Torborg????
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Mucking Fets tonight, 10-8.  The Bucs had lead at one
    point, 9-3, and even tried to give the game to the Mucking Fets, but
    true to their reputation of being just downright horrible, the Fets
    didn't take the gift and lost the game anyways.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    An perfect example of the Mets season was the last out in tonights
    game. Bonilla on 1st, Fernandez up. Fernandez hits a shot up the middle
    that hits Belinda's foot, bounces to King who throws out Fernandez to
    end the game.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

	>> hits Belinda's foot, bounces to King who throws out Fernandez 

	All right! Belinda gets an assist and King the goal!

	Opps, never mind, that season is over, I forgot.



	billl

    
    I thought a better example of the Mets' season was yet another fly ball
    that didn't get caught because someone fell down/lost the ball in the
    sun or lights/didn't want to get hurt...
    
    glenn
    

    C'mon Glenn, be objective here.  Like TCM said, it's just a lot of bad
    bounces that are causing the MEts to lose.
    
    Has an expansion team ever finished ahead of a non-expansion team? 
    Marlins have a four game lead in the all important win column.
    
    brews

    	The Globe says that the Mets have the same record after 37 games
    that those Wonderful Wacky Mets of 1962 had.  
    
    				/Don

All expanison teams have finished in last place.

re:1962

I find that doubtful; 1962 Mets lost their first 9 games and I don't
think they ever had a percentage that was much better than .250

The Crazy Met

    
    Torborg got canned today, from reports I heard.
    
> All expanison teams have finished in last place.
    
    Obviously when two teams entered the leagues at the same time before
    divisional play they didn't both finish last, but even then a couple
    expansion teams have finished ahead of non-expansion teams.  I think
    the 1961 Los Angeles Angels weren't too far from a winning
    season.
    
> I find that doubtful; 1962 Mets lost their first 9 games and I don't
> think they ever had a percentage that was much better than .250
    
    But the Mets are only .324 right now.  They won't finish that bad;
    that's 110 losses.  But cut the 1962 Mets some slack; they didn't get
    to beat up on *two* expansion clubs (the current Mets are below .250
    against non-expansion teams, I think).
    
    glenn
                                        

Article 20689 (195 more) in clari.sports.baseball:
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Subject: Mets deny report Torborg to be fired
Keywords: baseball, men's professional
Message-ID: <bb-torborgU3yJ1020ae@clarinet.com>
Date: Wed, 19 May 93 7:27:40 PDT
ACategory: sports
Slugword: bb-torborg
Priority: daily
Format: daily
ANPA: Wc: 111/110; Id: z2778; Sel: xxsbp; Adate: 5-19-1020aed
Codes: ysbpdxx., tnrb...., txia....
Lines: 9

        NEW YORK (UPI) -- The New York Mets are denying a television report
that manager Jeff Torborg will be fired and replaced by Dallas Green.
        CBS News reported on its ``CBS This Morning'' show Wednesday that a
source inside the Mets' organization said that Torborg would be replaced
by Green as manager of the struggling Mets, who fell to 12-25 with their
fifth straight loss Tuesday night.
        The Mets have lost 18 of their last 22 games and have the second
worst record in the majors, leading only the expansion Colorado Rockies.
        The Mets say they have no announcements planned at this time.

                                          
    >              -< where did you hear the reports, Glenn? >-
    
    BASEBALL, via WFAN.  I guess they were bogus, for now.
    
    
    glenn
    

    
    I was thinking of the situation when there were two expansion teams. 
    It's a shame that someone has fininished lower than one before, as I
    was looking for the MEts to be the first to do it.  Oh well.
    
    GO MARLINS!!

in NYMETSsomeone reported that the Pirates signed Jay Bell
for 19 mil over 4 years??  5 mil a year for Bell? If thats the
case they should have kept Bonds.

The Crazy Met

    As much as I love to read about the demise of the New York Mets, I
    suggest we stop cluttering up the Pirates' note with the Mets stuff.

	Sounds kinda strange to hear a Mucking Fet$ fan complaining about
	how much another team spent on a ball player.


	billl

    But Mac, there is no Mets note, and the Pirate fans love to hear all
    about the troubles the MEts are having, even if it's in their note.
          8^)

What complaint?? But wouldn't you as a Bucs fan have preferred their
signing Bonds to Bell??

Mets have their own notesfiles (all are welcome) so no real need for
a note in here.

Anyway clutter is good for you. trust me.

The Crazy Met

    re.142
    
    They're denying it right now??  Guess that means he'll be fired
    TOMORROW.
    
    Re Jay Bell, it's $17 mil over 4 years, by what I remember.
    
    JaKe
    

    Ok, officially, Jay Bell's contract is fer $17.3 over 4 years.
    
    Bell has been the best thing to happen to the Bucs as far as shortstop
    goes since Gene Alley retired.
    
    JaKe
    

    17 mil, 19 mil, that is not the point.
    
    Oh yeah word has it Mets will have a news conference after tonights
    game and announce Torborg has been fired.
    
    Bucs had a 4-1 lead but Mets tied it in the bottom of the 9th, delaying
    the news conference.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    >>Bucs had a 4-1 lead but Mets tied it in the bottom of the 9th, delaying
    >>the news conference.
    
    Sheez, my favorite reliever, Stan Belinda
    
    NOT!!!!!!
    
    Jerk starts off ninth inning with a 3 run lead, easy save, gives up 3
    runs, sending the game into extra innings.
    
    Don't even know the final score, but the Mucking Fets came back to win
    the freakin' game.  Hey, big comeback in the game, did the mgmt decide
    to keep Torborg on after all???
    
    JaKe
    

Mets won 6-4 in 10, so someone hit a HR.

Mets fired Torborg and hired Green.

The Crazy Met

                                             
> What complaint?? But wouldn't you as a Bucs fan have preferred their
> signing Bonds to Bell??
  
    I would have, but I'm apparently one of the few that likes Barry
    Bonds.  At one point when the Bucs were bending over backwards to get
    Van Slyke signed and were jumping through all of Bobby Bo's phony circus
    hoops, Bonds said that he'd sign a year in advance of his free agent 
    rights for the money they were offering Bonilla (around $5M a year for 
    4-5 years).  Who knows if he was serious, but the Pirates didn't bother 
    with him because they still had arbitration rights and have never shown
    much foresight in these matters.  Turns out they end up paying Jay Bell 
    only slightly less money. 
    
    One thing you do have to admit is that while the Pirates have
    constantly cried poverty, they've broken down and given some very 
    attractive above-market deals to Van Slyke, Bell, Lavalliere, Zane 
    Smith.  Van Slyke's has turned out to be worth it, so far; Bell's may 
    be, and the other two look like busts.
    
    Interesting and not entirely flattering nor condemning cover story on
    the BarryMonster in this week's SI ("I'm Barry Bonds, and You're Not.")
    Bonds is portrayed as equal parts egomaniac, child, and borderline
    psychotic.  It's not clear that you can call him a bad person or a good
    person, because he's just plain erratic.  Most of the people he's made
    an impression on seem to either love him or hate him.  Probably yet
    more reason to ignore these guys' private lives and leave the
    appreciation of the athletes at the ballpark (a point Bonds makes 
    repeatedly, but you wonder if he means it and doesn't really need the 
    constant ego-feeding).
    
    glenn
    

Yup posted it from clari earlier in the day. Hey things change,
even over a few hours.

The Crazy Met

Read the posting I put in the NL note, with both articles back to back.

They knew over the weekend that he was history, but denied it because
they wanted to announce it themselves.....


'Saw

Every team plays that game.

The Crazy met

>Every team plays that game.

Oh, no doubt.  Teams (and businesses for that matter) can't abide by 
leaks.....


'Saw

    Bucs lost two out of three to the Cards this weekend, er should I say,
    Stan "F__KING" Belinda BLEW two out of three.
    
    Belinda STINKS!!!!!
    
    Hell, the guy got a few saves right out of the gate and is now finally
    playing down to his reputation and blowing games faster than a downtown
    hooker.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs are 0-13 in game when they score less than 4 runs.
    
    The relief pitchers have a combined ERA of 5.14, instills tons of
    confidence in the relievers, eh??
    
    The Bucs are 5th in the league in runs scored, but are next to last in
    runs allowed, with only the pathetic Colorado Rockies behind them.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won tonight, 2-0, behind a complete game shutout by Steve Cooke.
    
    Bucs are NOW 1-13 in games where they have scored less than 4 runs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Steve Cooke did it all last night.  Not only did he pitch the shutout,
    he drove in the two runs the Bucs scored.
    
    JaKe
    

    FWIW, Iron City Beer has out their commerative Roberto Clemente cans
    and a Clemente poster, the proceeds of which will go towards the statue
    of the Great One which will be unveiled at nexted years All-Star game
    at three rivers stadium.
    
    JaKe
    

They're gonna put up a statue of Wayne Gretzky in Three Rivers?  Whatever
for?????

    > FWIW, Iron City Beer has out their commerative Roberto Clemente cans
    > and a Clemente poster, the proceeds of which will go towards the statue
    > of the Great One which will be unveiled at nexted years All-Star game
    > at three rivers stadium.
    
    Cool.  There's a small chance I may be out there the weekend of June
    19-20, and my vacationing bro will be for sure, so I'll have to 
    stockpile several dozen cases of America's finest...
    
    glenn
    

    
>>They're gonna put up a statue of Wayne Gretzky in Three Rivers?  Whatever
>>for?????
    
    Blasphemy, PURE BLASPHEMY!!!!
    
    Roberto is probably rolling over in his watery grave.
    
    JaKe
    

    How much for a poster?
    

    >>How much for a poster?
    
    Dunno, but I'll check it out tomorrow fer ya.
    
    JaKe
    

    WAlt,
    
    technically, the posters are free(although there's supposed to be one
    coming out that costs a buck or two, with the proceeds going towards
    paying for the statue).  BUT, I called 10 places and each said that
    they got 5 posters last week, and they're all gone, and they're having
    one helluva time getting more.
    
    I'll try to hoard...er procure some in the nexted few days, though.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Just a liitle salt fer my favorite anti-pgh fan,
    
    
    The Buccos are currently batting about .270, third in the NL, while the
    Mucking Fet$ are LAST.  That's right folks.  As hard as it my be to 
    believe, the over-priced National League team from New Yuck is not only
    dead-last in the NL East standings, they are also being out hit by
    every other team in the NL.  That includes, not one, but both expansion
    teams!  Boy that owner sure knows how to spend the cash wisely (NOT).
    
    
    billl 

Speaking of posters, I have only ONE baseball poster, and anyone who's
been to the Sawmill will know what it is.

Suprisingly enough, despite the fact that I'm a life long, dyed-in-the-wool
Red Sox fan, my one baseball poster is of one of my three all-time favorite
ball players -- Lou Gehrig.

However, Jake, I could be interested in a Wayne Gret..., uh, er, Roberto
Clemente poster....


'Saw

>>However, Jake, I could be interested in a Wayne Gret..., uh, er, Roberto
>>Clemente poster....
    
    I'll put ya on the list.  I called about 30 beer distributors today
    looking for some of the posters and NOBODY's got any.  they all said
    Pittsburgh Brewing gave them 5 or 10 to GIVE AWAY at the beginning, and
    now the things are hard as hell to get from the Brewery.  Supposedly,
    the next round will sell fer a buck or two, with proceeds to go towards
    the cost of erecting the statue.
    
    Lookin fer the poster
    
    
    JaKe
    

    
    But JaKe, what about the important stuff, the Iron City beer cans?  
    Are they readily available?  Will they be for the next month or so?
    
    I've already got a cool Clemente shirt picturing him looking out at 
    the end of the follow-through on his patented swing, with the name 
    "ROBERTO" at the top.  I showed it to my 7-year-old daughter after I
    bought it last fall and told her it was The Great One, and her 
    response was: "Alomar?"  Which, to her credit, isn't too bad, I guess,
    since *that* Roberto from Puerto Rico will probably go to the Hall of
    Fame some day, too.
    
    glenn
    

    Kevin Young:  Struggling rookie ready to blossom or Overhyped media
    flop?
    

    
    > Kevin Young:  Struggling rookie ready to blossom or Overhyped media
    > flop?
    
    Since I was really the only one to hype him big I'll stick with the
    former, for now... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn,
    
    The beer cans are available at all the places, it's just the posters
    that are hard to get. 
    
    don't know how long the beer cans will be available, they're only in 16
    ounce cans, and it's about $15/case.
    
    JaKe
    

    here's the poup on the posters and the beer cans :
    
    The posters are $5/each, and the proceeds go towards the Roberto
    Clemente Statue fund, which will pay fer the statue which will be
    unveiled at Three Rivers nexted July at the All-Star game.  I gots the
    Brewery sendnig me order forms, so if ya wants one, lemme know and
    I'll either send ya a form, or ya cain send me the $$$ and I'll send
    the form in cause the place is right here in the 'Burgh.
    
    There will be 4 limited edition beer cans with Clemente stuff on them. 
    There are two out right now, one in 12 ounce, and a different style can
    in the 16 ounce size.  In a couple of months, they'll come out with two
    new cans, different pictures again on the 12 ounce and 16 ounce, but
    this time in their IC Light brand of beer.
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Dodgers took 2 of 3 from the Bucs this weekend.
    
    True to form, I went to the game Saturday night, and the Bucs lost.  I
    think it's 3 years running now that EVERY Pirate game I've attended has
    ended in a Bucco loss.
    
    Took my 7 year old, Robbie, to the game.  It was a suprise fer him, and
    he didn't find out where we were going until we pulled into the stadium
    lot.  It was Cap night, so when they handed him his hat, he was in 7th
    heaven, not only getting to go to the ballgame, but getting a new hat
    in the process.  I also bought him one of those miniature bats as a
    souvenir.  He was elated at the whole evening.
    
    Round about the 4th inning, with the Bucs getting keelt, Robbie looks
    up at me and says:
    
    "Hey Dad, the Pirates sure do stink, don't they??"
    
    He couldn't figure out why I laughed so hard, but it was tremendous
    insight from a kid who is just learning the game.
    
    JaKe
    

    Tim Wakefield's woes continue, as the Bucs lost to the Rockies lasted
    night, 6-2.
    
    WAkefield allowed 10 hits and 5 runs in 5 innings, boosting his season
    ERA to 5.60.  He has not won since April 27th, and he hasn't lasted
    more than 5 innings in any of his lasted four starts.
    
    Over the lasted 4 starts for Wakefield, hi numbers are:
    
    9.87 ERA, 19 runs, 32 hits, only 17-1/3 innings.
    
    Actually, the whole Pirate pitching staff is pretty pitiful.  When ya
    have Bob Walk as the #1 starter, how good cain ya be??
    
    JaKe
    

    
    > Actually, the whole Pirate pitching staff is pretty pitiful.  When ya
    > have Bob Walk as the #1 starter, how good cain ya be??
    
    At least Steve Cooke has looked pretty good.  I have to admit I thought
    that the pitching would be much better than this (primarily with
    Wakefield as the staff ace), but I guess I'd rather see the cagey vets
    falling apart than someone who might be around awhile.  Whoever is
    responsible for ideas like bringing John Candelaria back into town
    should be shot...
    
    glenn
                                                            

    >>At least Steve Cooke has looked pretty good.  I have to admit I thought
    >>that the pitching would be much better than this (primarily with
    >>Wakefield as the staff ace), but I guess I'd rather see the cagey vets
    >>falling apart than someone who might be around awhile.
    
    Well, Walk is 6-3, with an era of 4.78, Dave Otto has pitched horribly,
    Randy Tomlin, on the DL, is 2-5 with an era of 4.44, and Wakefield
    isn't fooling anyone this year.  Zane SMith is still at least a few
    weeks from returning, and who knows what his return will show.  Paul
    Wagner has been moved into the starting rotation, but his bullpen stats
    are 1 win, 2 losses, era=5.27.  27.1 innings pitched, 31 hits allowed,
    10  walks.
    
    Face it, Walk is the cream of the crop right now, so what's that tell
    ya?  What happens when Walk makes his semi-annual jaunt to the DL with
    a groin injury????
    
    >>							  Whoever is
    >>responsible for ideas like bringing John Candelaria back into town
    >>should be shot...
    
    None other than Ted Simmons, with an assist from Mark Sauer.  I still
    hold that they're trying to make this club horrible so they cain leave
    town in a few years fer greener (donero) pastures of the south.
    
    JaKe
    

    Caught most of the last 5 innings last night, and Wakefield sure has a
    strange delivery - looks like he's just pitching batting practice.  Is
    that style typical for a knuckler?  What I really like about him is
    that he doesn't waste any time between pitches, he just keeps the game
    moving right along.
    
    Van Slyke put a scare into things when he missed a 3-run homer by a few
    feet in the 8th inning that would've brought the Bucs within a run.
    
    
    Joe

  >  Caught most of the last 5 innings last night, and Wakefield sure has a
  >  strange delivery - looks like he's just pitching batting practice.  Is
  >  that style typical for a knuckler?
    
    No.  Wakefield's is a pure knuckler, in that he throws the thing about
    as slow as is physically possible, and totally depends on the knuckling
    action (or at least he did before this year).  Phil Niekro's and
    Charlie Hough's knucklers were harder, upwards of 75 mph, and they
    could use the thing almost as an effective change of pace to a marginal
    fastball.  There's no trickery to Wakefield's knuckleball-- it's hit it 
    if you can, with the emphasis lately on the "can".
    
    glenn
       

I read somewhere that a knuckleball only makes half a revolution on the
way to the plate.

My brother and I were playing catch yesterday and I was fooling around
with the grip and stuff.  I couldn't make it stop revolving totally,
but you could really see the seems.

Helluva pitch, the knuckleball.....


'Saw

    A perfect knuckleball will not rotate AT ALL.  ALmost impossible to
    throw, though.
    
    An effective knuckler cain keep it down to less than 2/3 rev from hand
    to plate.
    
    A windy day cain affect the movement on the ball everywhere from making
    it jump all over the place to deadening the ball and making it hittable
    even to a 5 year old.
    
>>My brother and I were playing catch yesterday and I was fooling around
>>with the grip and stuff.  I couldn't make it stop revolving totally,
>>but you could really see the seems.
    
    I've fooled around with it a little, and once in a blue moon, I cain
    throw one that rotates very little, and the ball moves like crazy.
    Made Robbie REAL mad one day when I threw about three in a row that
    evaded him and he had to chase them.
    
    Now, if I could only throw a breaking ball.
    
    JaKe
    

	My son, 17 yr old, can throw a pretty good knuckler.  Unfortunatly
	his is so erratic with it that his dad has given up catching with him.
	That is unless I'm properly equiped.  And I ain't talking about the 
	size of the glove.  When he's on he can get the rotation down to about
	1/2 to 2/3, when he's off he sends his dad into the house with sore 
	shins (at the least).

	
	billl

>My brother and I were playing catch yesterday and I was fooling around
>with the grip and stuff.  I couldn't make it stop revolving totally,
>but you could really see the seems.

>Helluva pitch, the knuckleball.....
    
    Oh yeah, he was talking about the knuckleball... was wondering about
    him for a minute...

breaking ball...No problem...I can throw a great Mike Boddicker 35 mph curve.

Knuckleball..forget it...

fastball...In the low 70's on a good day...in the mid-60's on a typical day



But I'd probably have a better ERa than Jose..

Metz

    Was reading an article in the local rag today, and apparently, they've
    quizzed some scouts who have been around fer a long time.
    
    These scouts have said that Andy Van Slyke ranks about equal as Willie
    Mays, DEFENSIVELY, as a center fielder.
    
    I dunno about that, but at the game me and Robbie was at Sat. night,
    somebody hit one over Van Slyke's haid, it hit at the base of the wall,
    Van Slyke, who had been going full steam to try and catch the ball(and
    he JUST missed it) slams the wall, rebounds and turns, plucks the ball
    out of the air, and nails the thang to 2nd base almost in time to get
    the hitter going fer a double.  Now, he did this in almost all one
    motioin, almost fluid.
    
    IMHO, there's nobody better, defensively, in the game right now,
    playing center field, than Van Slyke.
    
    JaKe
    

    

I'll take Ken Griffey .Jr  because he's faster...Van Slyke might play a smarter
CF but IMO you can't call one better than the other....

The human bowling ball (Kirby) plays a mean CF as well.


Metz

     
>    IMHO, there's nobody better, defensively, in the game right now,
>    playing center field, than Van Slyke.
    
    Not a bad choice, but very difficult to say, because you can't "see" 
    the part of defense that comes with knowledge and positioning.  For my
    money, because of his physical ability combined with the tremendous
    number of balls he chases down annually, I'd go with Devon White.  Then 
    you have guys like Ken Griffey Jr. who are overrated because for every
    highlight-film catch there's another ball that should have been caught
    except for a failure in positioning and lack of anticipation.  Griffey
    makes the "best" catches I've ever seen, though...
    
    glenn
    

re pitching:  

	A kid I was in the fire dept with lost the tip of his middle
	finger in an industrial accident.  Threw the wickedest curve
	I've ever seen.  I always tried to convince him to get a tryout
	someplace.

	Not that it would have been a precedent though.  In the early
	1900's Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown pitched for the Cubs.


	I can't pitch to save my life -- no control.....


re Van Slyke:

	I like him for all the funny remarks he makes......



'Saw

    
>>re Van Slyke:

>>	I like him for all the funny remarks he makes......
    
    He's referred to as "Psycho" and "Norman Bates" in the clubhouse fer
    all the craziness he does.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Rockies lasted night as Bob "Groin injury" Walk won his
    seventh game of the season, against 3 losses.
    
    Orlando Merced had 5 RBI and a home run.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs beat the Rockies again lasted night, 5-3.  Orlando Merced
    broke a 3-3 tie in the ninth with a run scoring double, and the Bucs
    added an insurance run.  Merced, who has to be falling in love with
    Pile-It-High Stadium, had 8 RBI in the 3 game series.
    
    Andy Van Slyke committed his first error since April of lasted year.
    
    The Bucs now move on to Candledic...er...Candlestick Park for a four
    game series with the Giants.  Tonight's probable starting pitcher for
    the Bucs is none other than Denny Neagle(aw crap), whose last start
    ended up in a 15-1 loss to the Mucking Fets.  
    
    Gawd, I wish the Bucs would get some REAL starting pitching soon.
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Bucs beat the Gnats lasted night, 2-1.
    
    Orlando Merced got his 9th RBI in the lasted 4 games.  Denny Neagle got
    the win, and Blas Minor got his first major league save.
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Bucs beat the Gnats lasted night, 3-2 behind the pitching of
    Steve Cooke.  Stan Belinda got his 11th save.  Orlando Merced went 2
    fer 3 and moved ahead of Mr. Wah-Wah and into the lead of the NL
    batting Avg. leaders.
    
    The Bucs have now won 4 straight and are 2 games ABOVE .500.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    The Bucs lost to the Gnats Saturday AND Sunday.
    
    Saturday, Tim Wakefield pitched better than he has in his last 7
    starts, but still ended up winless since the end of April, losing 3-2. 
    The three runs came on homers in the first inning, and third inning. 
    The latter was a homer by the Gnats PITCHER, no less.
    
    Yesterday, the Gnats teed off on Bob Walk, winning 7-1 in a windblown
    game at Candledic...er Candlestick Park.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs lost to the Rockies lasted night, 4-1, in a game that was
    delayed over an hour and a half by thunderstorms and heavy rain.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs win over Rockies tonite, 4-1.  Albert Martin hit his 3rd HR of the
    season, driving in 2 runs, and he also scored two runs in the game.
    
    Denny Neagle pitched good in his second start of the season, allowing
    the Rockie's only run in the first inning.  so far, in two starts,
    Denny Neagle has two wins, he has pitched 11+ innings, given up 8 hits,
    and only two runs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lost to the Marlins lasted night, 4-3.
    
    Unrelated:  Barry BOnds, in an upcoming Playboy interview, says the big
    argument he had with Leyland a couple of years ago before spring
    training was planned by the Pirates to berate him in the eyes of the
    Pirate fans so that when they didn't pay him the big $$$ and he left
    fer greener pastures, the fans wouldn't feel so bad.  He says it had to
    be a set-up because of the TV cameras that were there to catch it.
    
    Uh-huh.  Guess the fact that it was MEDIA DAY had nothing to do with
    some TV and sportswriters there, eh WAH-WAH.
    
    The guy manages to prove that his shoe size is greater than his IQ
    daily, and that he has an EGO bigger than the Pacific Ocean.
    
    JaKe
    

But his baseball talent is bigger than his IQ, his Shoe size and his contract
added together...

He was a bargain for the Giants...

Metz...Oh, how I wish the Sox had gone after him instead of 2 more old stiffs..

    
        Jake when you gonna stop boo-hooing about Barry leaving 
       town, dude? I bet your still pining away about little Mary
       Lou Rottendrors breaking your heart in the second grade. Ha!

    Hey Tommy, Do me.
    
    I'm just passing on what was reported here in the papers today.
    
    FOR THE FREAKIN' RECORD, I DO think that Bonds is one of the best
    players in the league right now, specially wif the fack that he has the
    mentality fof a 7 year old.
    
    JaKe
    

    >   Jake when you gonna stop boo-hooing about Barry leaving 
    >   town, dude? I bet your still pining away about little Mary
    >   Lou Rottendrors breaking your heart in the second grade. Ha!
    
    To be fair, it's not just JaKe.  I have little doubt that he got that
    snippet from one of the "What Bad Boy Barry Did Today While the Home 
    Town Team Flushed Another One" segments in the Pittsburgh papers. 
    Barry Bonds and Pittsburgh just was a marriage that was doomed from the
    start.  Which was no doubt Bonds' point, embellished by his arrogant 
    and playful way...
    
    glenn
    

      >> Hey Tommy, Do me.
    
         Now, you done gone and hurt my feelings. I think you're in league
         with TCM and Heiser. I ought to send you monkeys the cleaning
         bills for my tear stained pillows.
    
      >> I'm just passing on what was reported here in the papers today.
    
         You're always raggin' on poor humble Barry. Why, that man put 
         Pittsburgh on the map. If that article was praising Barry's hum-
         anity and charitableness (which I'm sure are considerable) it'd 
         never have made the Pittsburgh press and hence not entered here.
         But the fact that there are still articles on why he left town is
         a testament to just how good he is.
            
      >> FOR THE FREAKIN' RECORD, I DO think that Bonds is one of the best
      >> players in the league right now, specially wif the fack that he has 
      >> the mentality fof a 7 year old.
    
         Ha!
    
    

    Maybe the Pittsburgh papers should go back on strike?
    

    
    >>     Now, you done gone and hurt my feelings. I think you're in league
    >>     with TCM and Heiser. I ought to send you monkeys the cleaning
    >>     bills for my tear stained pillows.
    
    I woulda put a smiley on the damned note but I know whut you think of
    smileys.  DOn't go lumping me in the same sentence as Mike H. now!! 
    (8^)
    
    >>     You're always raggin' on poor humble Barry. Why, that man put 
    >>     Pittsburgh on the map. 
    
    BOnds put Pittsburgh on the map???  BULLSH_T!!  It was guys like Honus
    Wagner and the Waner Bros. and Roberto Clemente and BIll Maz and Willie
    Stargell that did that.  Bonds regular season production helped the
    Bucs win 3 straight NL East titles, but his influence in the clubhouse
    was not the most desirable type, plus his post season numbers STINK. 
    But he did acquire a taste fer shoe leather whilst he was here cause he
    put his big feet in enuf.
    
    >>				If that article was praising Barry's hum-
    >>     anity and charitableness (which I'm sure are considerable) it'd 
    >>     never have made the Pittsburgh press and hence not entered here.
    
    Wrongo.  If I'd a seen it somewhere( but the above is like Santa Claus,
    the WWF and the toof fairy, not fer real) I'd a put it in here.
    
    The thing is, this article was stating that Barry "Wah-Wah" BOnds
    AGAIN, slammed the whole Pirate organization, in a nationally published
    magazine, and accused them of goading him into a public argument just
    to make the fans dislike him more.   I guess that's just a Pgh.
    newspaper taking the chance to slam him instead of being justified in
    reporting that he's still slamming the team hisself.
    
    Yes, he is good, maybe the best there is playing right now, but I still
    maintain he's a mental midget who is also carrying a grudge.
    
    BTW, the article did state that Bonds accuses Leyland of being in on
    the plot to make him look bad, but that he still has the utmost of
    respeck fer Leyland.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    
    

    Bucs lost again to the Marlins tonite, 11-3.  Wakefield got shelled
    again, only lasted a little over 1 inning.  Look fer Wakefield to be
    taking a trip to the minors in the nexted week or so to try to work
    things out.
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake, you should appreciate the compliment.  Afterall, I'm taller and
    200lbs. lighter than you.
    
    Bonds sure has turned the Giants around.  Didn't he actually have a few
    postseason hits last year?

    There goes Tommy complaining about his bad treatmant by other folks;
    then in the same breath he puts me in the same category as Mike H. Come
    on man have a heart.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Ain't Wakefield a knuckle-baller?

And when your knuckler don't knuckle, it comes to the plate fatter than
a meatball.....

Wakefield's knuckler ain't knuckling....


'Saw

    re.218
    
    When a knuckler ain't knuckling, it's called batting practice.
    
    Schnorttt SChittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Bucs got SWEPT out of Joe Robbie Stadium this weekend by the
    Marlins.  Twas the firsted home sweep by the Marlins.  The Bucs just
    stunk and are now involved wif the Mucking Fets in a race fer lasted
    place in the NL East, wif the Mucking Fets holding down lasted place by
    a 9 game margin.   If the Mucking Fets continue at their present pace,
    they will win a grand total of 51 games this year.
    
    Re the Bonds debacle, I gots a good article by a guy named Stan Savran,
    who has been a sportscaster/sriter here in Pittsburgh fer a few year,
    that I'll put in here tonight.  Had me pee-ing my pants when I read it
    yesterday morning.  He implicates another ex-Bucco though, as being the
    one who put the words into Bonds' mouth, but was much too smart to be
    the one to blast anyone whilst he was here.
    
    JaKe
    

> they will win a grand total of 51 games this year.

That many? The '62 Mets must have had some real bad losing streaks
in the latter part of that season since these Mets are not
that  far behind the pace of the '62 Mets at this point.

The Crazy Met

  Hey guys, it wasn't just the Pittsburgh papers who printed the story about
  what Bonds said in Playboy about the altercation with Leyland in training 
  camp a couple of years ago. Last week, I read the same thing in the
  Rocky Mtn news.

	Keith

TO TELL THE TRUTH
(it was Bonds, not Pirates, who instigated problem)

from The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, June 12, 1993

By

Stan Savran

	I was there.  Don't tell ME about it, 'cause I was there.  Spring
training.  First week of March 1991.  Pirate City, Bradenton, Fla.  The famed
Jim Leyland-Barry Bonds blowup.
	Bonds' recollection of the incident, as stated in Playboy magazine, is
distorted, which is consistent with most of his thinking.  Bonds claims the
battle royale with Leyland that morning two years ago was set up by the Pirates
organization to make him look bad.  As if this creep needs any help.
	Back to the morning in question.  The party of the first part, Bonds,
had hired his own personal photographer to take pictures of him.  While the
players stretched on the outfield grass, other photographers, newspaper and
magazine, plus three television cameramen were shooting as well.  Bonds
objected, shouting, "Get that [expletive deleted] camera out of my face!"  As
if he somehow owned and thus controlled the air-space between himself and the
cameras.  Is that enough arrogance for you?
	At this point, it should be mentioned that the two cameramen, the one I
was working with, plus WPZI's photographer, were where they were supposed to
be.  They had not crossed any line as so to establish a position where they
weren't allowed to be.  SO it wasn't as though they were so close that Bonds
could see the reflection of his flared nostrils in the camera lens.
	Bonds repeated his mantra: "Get that [expletive deleted] camera out of
my face."  Finally, Pirates public relations man Jim Lachimia, having heard the
commotion from across the way, came to address the problem and Bonds, which
were one and the same.  Bonds complained to Lachimia that no one should be
allowed to take his picture unless he(Bonds) approved.
	Lachimia explained to this hind end in cleats that the media had a
right to be there, and that, in fact, the club encouraged their presence. 
Bonds turned on Lachimia like he would a medium-speed fastball across the heart
of  the plate.  He screamed at Jim, "YOU don't decide who takes my picture.  
Only I decide who takes my picture."
	Remember, now, we're not talking about him posing for a family
portrait, we're talking about shooting video of him stretching and playing
catch.
	I won't speak for Jim Lachimia, but if he wasn't embarrassed while
Bonds ripped on him in front of everybody, then I was embarrassed for him. 
What manner of man eviscerates a fellow employee, who is, by virtue of pecking
order, unable to really fight back?
	Bonds stalked away, cameras following all the while.  Seemingly, the
ugly show was over.  But that was only the preview.  The feature film was about
to begin.  Less than 10 minutes later, the petulant spoiled brat, angry because
he had lost his arbitration case(no fault of the Pirates) began to rail at
coach Bill Virdon.  Let me interject here that Bill Virdon, at the age of 60,
could have kicked Bonds' pampered posterior from Pirate City to Okeefenokee
Swamp if he'd had a mind to.  Leyland heard the Bonds' harangue from way across
the practice fields, as did all who were present, and the rest is history. 
Leyland scored a TKO that day.  This was not a conversation.  This was a
MONOLOGUE.  Leyland talked, nay, spewed stored-up venom, and that monument to
pomposity stood there and took it.  Every word of it.  Don't let anyone tell
you differently.
	Leyland, fungo bat in hand, stalked off.  Bonds stood there, too
self-absorbed to be embarrassed.  Along came his great friend, fellow playoff
choke, Bobby Bonilla, to lead him away.  With Bonilla's arm draping his
shoulder, Bonds shouted, "Get me outta here!  Just get me [expletive deleted]
outta here!"
	Not that you need to be told, but the Pirates did NOT set this up.  If
there was any setup, it was by Bonilla.  You see, Bonilla too had lost his
arbitration case, and was equally unhappy.  But unlike Bonds, Bonilla knew how
to play the public relations game.
	He filled his "friend" (puppet) with all manner of happy thoughts,
knowing full well that Bonds would never have the restraint to hold them in. 
That way, Bonilla could convey his dissatisfaction with the Pirates through
Bonds, and still appear to be one of the good guys.  The mouth belonged to
Bonds, the words were Bonilla's.
	That's the way it happened that morning.  And anyone who was there,
save Bonds, will tell you that's the way it went down.  And, hey Barry.  By the
way.  Nice throw to the plate on Cabrera's single.

					Stan Savran



JaKe

    Pirates lose, Van Slyke out 8 weeks - Broken Collar bone crashing into
    wall...
    

    Mets win; Bucs lead for 6th place down to 8 games or so. Heck of a fall
    for these two teams.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
        If I lived in Pittsburgh (God forbid) and that was the type 
       of sports reporting I was getting, I'd be hoping for another 
       newspaper strike. 

	Tommy, you wouldn't happen to be an avid reader of one of the two
	fine, upstanding and totally objective Boston rags now would you?


	just wonderin'


	billl

    
     >>	Tommy, you wouldn't happen to be an avid reader of one of the two
     >>	fine, upstanding and totally objective Boston rags now would you?

        Yes, Bill. I read the Globe everyday. It's considered one of the
        best (if not THE best) sports pages in the country. In fact, a few 
        years ago SPORT magazine rated it the best. Peter Gammon on baseball,
        Bob Ryan on basketball, Will McDonough on football, Ron Borges on
        boxing, all rank with the best in their profession.
    
        I'm not just raggin' on Pittsburgh and maybe there is a parallel
        in Boston sports somewhere but I don't understand why Pittsburgh
        seems to take Barry's leaving so personally. The guy didn't want
        to play there, he left, good riddance. No?

     >> -< if you've seen one you've seen them all >-
    
        I don't think so. I've read the Herald a few times (never bought
        it) and I think the writing is just awful. Glenn Waugaman and Bob
        Hunt write better stuff.

>>	The guy didn't want to play there, he left, good riddance. No?


	Ab-so-root-ry!  But like man scorned by a beautiful woman, he can't
	help but to take advantage of future opputunities to tell the world
	her faults.

	
	billl

                             
    Well, I don't think that even the most biased hometown newspaper 
    reader would favorably compare the Pittsburgh sports page(s) with 
    the Boston Globe's.  I've read them both over extended periods and it's
    not even close.  The Globe may have its faults but it annually cleans up 
    in national awards for sportswriting, and is generally complete and
    well-rounded in its coverage for a local paper.  Maybe in the
    consolidation after the strike the new paper has gotten better, but as 
    of a few short years ago the Post-Gazette and Press were a joke, unless 
    you wanted to read more than you ever wanted to know about the Steelers.
    
    As for Steve Savran, if he's the same Steve Savran who used to do
    sports on the local nightly news, he's strictly an amateur.  But that's
    neither here nor there.  I have no doubt that his recollections of the
    Bonds' incident are correct.  But so what?  It's obvious that Barry in
    his immature way is trying to get a rise out of people, and he's
    succeeding marvelously!  Savran's (and others') petty editorializing, 
    with ignorant and childish comments like "nice throw to the plate on
    Cabrera's single" just places him at Bonds' playground level, which is 
    exactly what Barry wants.
     
    glenn
    

    The Boston press hasn't come close to this level with regard to local
    players leaving for greener pastures and look what they've had to work
    with:  Fisk, Burleson, Hurst, Boddicker, Anderson, Boggs, ...

>        years ago SPORT magazine rated it the best. Peter Gammon on baseball,
>        Bob Ryan on basketball, Will McDonough on football, Ron Borges on
>        boxing, all rank with the best in their profession.
    
    speaking of pinnacles of objectivity, 3 out of 4 ain't bad.

re: .233

Talk about stating the obvious. There are few if any sportswriter/announces/
sportscaster in Boston who are objective about the Celtics - though Jackie
MacMullan isn't the homer the others seem to be. 

On the other hand the Red Sox get creamed regularly in the local press.

The Crazy Met

    
     Hey Met, in response to note 122.0. You lose a little credibility,
    pal when you've been noting since Lee Timmons was in Little League 
    and you can't distinguish "write" from "reply". Ha!

Hmm, good point; I actually know what happened, but never mind

/Don

One of your problems is that you compare all people who are considered
homer's to Johnny Most. 

The Crazy Met

    	Sorry TCM, but I've been reading Ryan for years and while the
    quality of what he does isn't what it was in the 70's he's no homer.
    And even when the C's were in their heyday he didn't do the pompom
    waving that the New York press did during the Bulls/Knickerbocker
    series.  Course now that the Times own the Globe, taking one for the
    home town team may be a mandatory thing.  Got to love a paper who will
    release the name of a rape defendant but not the name of the person who
    saw Micheal gambling at 2 A.M. in New Jersey.
    
    				/Don

    Whether or not he's slightly biased with regard to the Celtics, the
    fact is that Ryan is the best *writer* in the paper.  He has a pretty
    good grasp of a number of topics, not the least of which is baseball.
    His perspective on the Red Sox and the usual knee-jerk subjects like
    Clemens and Boggs has been uncommonly excellent...
    
    glenn
    

Now that I think about it .241 is right. 

I haven't noticed =bob= around today.

The Crazy Met

    AS Walt stated somewhere back a ways, Andy Van Slyke is gone fer 8
    weeks with a broken collarbone, and whiplash, both suffered while
    trying to catch a ball that went in and out of his glove fer a home
    run.
    
    The Bucs are in the midst of a 5 game losing streak, with no oasis in
    sight.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs gave Glenn Wilson the option of being released or being assigned
    to their Buffalo AAA team.  Wilson is shopping himself around the
    league.  He was 2 fer 14 with the Bucs.
    
    Bucs lost 6th straight lasted night, but didn't gain any ground on the
    Mucking Fets in the race for lasted place, as the Mucking Fets lost
    too.
    
    JaKe
    

    Make that 7 straight losses fer the Bucs.  they lost today to the Cards
    in an afternoon game.
    
    Glad to see that Ted Simmons and Mark Sauer's plan to drive baseball
    out of Pittsburgh is finally taking hold after having a tough time
    getting off the ground fer the first two months of the season.  NOT!
    
    JaKe
    

    1.  The Bucs suffered a major set-back in their race wif the Mucking
    Fets fer lasted place in the NL East, they played the Mucking Fets 4
    games over the weekend, and true to form, the Mucking Fets did
    everything they could to hold onto and solidify their hold on lasted
    place, including snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
    
    The Bucs took all four games from the A-holes from NY.
    
    2.  Ted Simmons announced his retirement this weekend, he blamed health
    reasons.  Simmons, 43, suffered a heart attack June 8th.
    
    3.  Cam Bonifay is that replacement for Simmons as patsy...er...General
    Manager.  Whether Bonifay will be as successful as Simmons was at
    driving away any player resembling a true prospect or no remains to be
    seen.
    
    
    4.  Bucs are playing the Cubbies today.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

Another truly pathetic display of so-called baseball by the Mets. Last
nights game was particularly painful. When Franco was in tha bases loaded
situation I kept waiting for Francisco Cabrera, I mean one of the
Pittsburgh players to get a hit and end the misery.

The Crazy Met

    I couldn't make it out to Pittsburgh for the weekend with my 
    vacationing brother (from Okinawa, trying to get in as many sporting 
    events as possible while stateside), who subjected himself to the 
    unspeakable horrors of attending all four of the games in this series, 
    but I'm glad to hear that his fears that the Bucs would continue their 
    losing ways while he was town went unfounded.  Many thanks go out once 
    again to the Mets for being so accomodating to so many in their time 
    of need...  
    
    glenn
    

    Unfortunately, I didn't ge tthe chance to listen OR see any of the
    games, but lasted night, Kevin Young was allowed by Leyland to face
    Franco, and went down in the count 1-2, before Franco threw him two
    balls and then Young fouled off another before Franco walked him,
    forcing in the tying run.  Don "Sluggo" SLaught then pinch hit fer Tom
    Prince and singled in the game winner, hence the Mucking Fets snatching
    defeat from the jaws of victory.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won lasted night, wif Bob Walk getting the complete game 3 hitter.
    
    Walk is now 9-5, but wif an ERA somewhere around 4.70.
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Bucs beat the Cubs again lasted night, 9-4.
    
    Paul Wagner go the win to even his record at 3-3.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs take on the Filthydelfia Philthy's starting tonight.
    
    Bucs have won 6 of their lasted 7 games.
    
    JaKe
    

    And soon to be 6 of there last 10..........

    A Dallas Cowboys fan and Phillies fan?? Talk about straaange.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs snatched defeat from the jaws of victory lasted night, losing 8-6,
    after holding leads of 4-0 and 6-3.  John "I should be in a rest home"
    Candelaria gave up 3 runs in the 8th to seal the loss.
    
    JaKe
    

    Welcome to reality in the NL East, at least so far this year.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Bucs made it 7 wins in lasted 9 games last night, with Steve Cooke
    becoming the first pitcher this year to pitch a complete game against
    the Phillies, winning 4-2, pitching a 6 hitter.
    
    Zane SMith .vs. Terry Mulholland today at Three RIvers.
    
    JaKe
    

    
>> <<< Note 34.253 by LUDWIG::GARRY "Dallas Cowboys back where they belong #1" >>>

>>    And soon to be 6 of there last 10..........
    
    EAt your hat, Pal.
    
    Bucs completed an 8-2 homestand beating the Philthys yesterday in 10
    innings, 4-3.
    
    The Bucs entered the bottom of the 10th inning down 3-2, DOn Slaught
    parked a Mitch "Wild Thing" Williams pitch in the seats in left, tying
    the game, then (things get foggy here) the Bucs ended up wif the bases
    loaded, and Kevin Young knocked in the winning run.
    
    2 of 3 from the Philthys, guess that ain't too bad, but the lost ground
    the the Mucking Fets in their race fer lasted place.  The Bucs now
    trail the Mucking Fets by, what, 15 games???
    
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    Make it 9 wins in the lasted 11 games fer the Bucs.
    
    The beat the Expos(ed) lasted night, 9-5 in 10 innings.  Tim Wakefield
    pitched two innings in relief and got the W, giving up only one hit,
    walked none, and struck out 2.
    
    The Bucs had trailed 5-2 after 4 innings, and were one strike away from
    losing the game when Orlando Merced singled in the ninth, driving in
    the tying run.
    
    The Bucs then scored 4 in the top of the tenth.
    
    Stan Belinda shut the Expos(ed) down in order in the bottom of the
    10th.
    
    JaKe
    

	It's nice to see Wakefield back on track (no walks and only one hit)
	even if it was only one inning.  Hopefully they will leave him as
	a middle reliever.  I think that is where he can be most effective.



	billl

    
    >>	It's nice to see Wakefield back on track (no walks and only one hit)
    >>	even if it was only one inning.  Hopefully they will leave him as
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Uh, er, ah, billl, ya under the influence of marinated phlegm monsters
    er what.  re-read .259, he pitched 2 innings.
    
    Supposedly, he'll get a start in the 5 games series(in 4 days) in
    Sinsinatty.
    
    JaKe
    

	Ah, yeah that's what I meant TWO innings.


	billl

    Da Bucs got keelt lasted night in Montreal, 9-2.
    
    The game featured 3 consecutive homers in the 7th inning by the
    Expos(ed).
    
    The lasted time the Bucs had three homers hit in an inning against them
    was in 1970, by Willie Mays, Jim Ray Hart, and Bobby Bonds, playing fer
    the Giants at the time.  Those homers were not consecutive.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs suffer thru another massacre, back to back homers, 5 consecutive
    walks their downfall as they lose again to Montreal, 9-1.
    
    After that scare when they won 8 of 10 on the homestand, they once
    again are on track to challenge the Mucking Fets fer lasted place in
    the NL East.
    
    If this team could only play all of their games at home!!
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

     
    
    
    
    
    Ben

    Middle of the 6th, Bucs losing AGAIN to the Expos(ed), 6-5.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lost today, 7-5 to Montreal.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs win first of two being played in Cincy tonight in a slugfest,
    10-9.
    
    Don SLaught had two homers, and a acrifice fly fer 7 RBI, the homers
    were each three run shots.
    
    Game two, Wakefield against Pugh.
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Bucs just finished the weekend from HELL yesterday, losing their 4th
    in a row after getting a W in the firsted game fo the doubleheader
    Friday night agains t the Reds.
    
    The Bucs are something like 17-29 on the road.  Sucks, really sucks.
    
    JaKe
    

    JaKe,
    
    Ya come to the big city, ya pay the toll.
    
    Mr_Cincinnatian

    Bucs beat the Asstros tonite, 10-3.
    
    Jeff Ballard made his first start as a Bucco, jsut called up from
    Buffalo where he was 6-1 with an ERA in the lower 2's.
    
    Ballard went 8+, gave up 3 runs.  Stan Belinda finished the game for
    the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs still suck.
    
    Mets still suck harder.
    
    JaKe
    

                      
      __________________________
     /                          \
     |      JaKe said.......    |  
     |     The Bucs Suck!!      |
     \__________________________/
                  L_ !
                 / _)!
                / /__L
          _____/ (____)
                 (____)
          _____  (____)
               \_(____)
                  !  !
                  \__/
    

    
    Re: -.1
    
    Please be advised that that bit of artwork is not an original.
    T'was stolen from the other "infamous" notesfile (where ~1,000 per
    day is typical)
    
    ;^)
    
    However, it is a neet drawing, donchaknow.
    
    I remain,
    a hopper all over NotesLand!
    Kev
    

    >>   Plagerizing at it's best!       
                           
        To use your own words, "Yabbut" your right :-))
    
    	@@
         >
        \_/  Ben

    Bucs beat the ASStros & Doug Drabek tonite, 2-1.  Randy Tomlin pitched
    the complete game and lost his shutout with one out in the ninth,
    giving up a home run.  Tomlin allowed only 4 hits in the game.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lost to the ASStros lasted night, 5-3.  STeve Cooke's control
    sorta got lost fer a while and he made a BIG mistake on a bunt play and
    gave up 4 runs in the fifth inning to sink the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Amazing comeback lasted night by the Pirates, and yet another example
    why artifical turf is the biggest travesty in baseball today. 
    
    Here's the situation:  Pirates were down three comin' in to the bottom
    of the 9th, but scored two runs and had guys on first and second.
    There's a looper hit to right center and Justice is chargin', but he
    sees he cain't catch the ball.  Instead of playing the hop, like he
    would have on grass, and holding the guy to a single and at worst a tie
    game, Justice figures he's gotta smother the ball so it doesn't take
    one of those ridiculous artifical turf bounces, goes over his head, and
    costs the Braves the game, and thereby penalizing him for hustling
    after the ball.  What happens is he goes into a slide, but insted of
    smothering the ball it bounces of his leg and scoots all the way into
    left-center.  Sanders went to back up Justice (naturally), so the
    shortstop had to go all the way into the outfield to retrieve the ball. 
    By the time he got there, the guy from first crossed the plate standing
    up.  I hate seeing fielders penalized for trying to make a play the way
    phony turf does on a consistent basis.
    
    NAZZ

	I couldn't agree with you more NAZZ.  As elated as I was to see 
	the Bucs end up on the plus side of this one, I hate what that
	green concrete covering has done to this game.


	billl

    Stan Belinda worked his personal "magic" on the Braves tonight, taking
    over at the top of the ninth of a 0-0 game, and giving up six runs, the
    lasted three on a Dave Justice opposite field HR.
    
    The Braves paid the Bucs back for lasted night.  The Bus got two runs
    in the bottom of the ninth, and the final was 6-2, Braves.
    
    JaKe
    

    That's too funny.  Glenn and I were talking while watching the BoSox
    at JD's last hurrah.  When they flashed the updates to the score on
    the Bucco game I told him I'll bet Belinda is in there.  He said if'n
    he was JaKe would be ripping him a new one.
    
    
    billl

    Bucs were trailing 4-0 into the bottom of the fourth lasted night,
    scored 6 runs in the bottom of said fourth, including 5 runs with two
    outs(and Steve Cooke had struck out, third out, but the ball got past
    Montreal's catcher and Cooke made it to first).  Bucs ended 4th
    leading, 6-4, but true to form, the cow manure reliever corps gave the
    damned game away and the Bucs lost, 8-6.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won lasted night 3-2.  They entered the ninth donw 2-1 and pulled
    it out.  It was the 13th time this year they have won a game in their
    lasted at bat.
    
    JaKe
    

	I know this is going to really break JaKe's heart...

	Stan Belinda was traded to KC for two minor league players.



	billl

    re-.1
    
    Another move in the dismantling of the Bucs.
    
    
    JaKe
    

Good thing for Belinda. Bucs fans are as likely to forgive him for 
giving up that hit to Cabrera as Red Sox fans are likely to forgive
Buckner for that error. Not a chance!

The Crazy Met

           
> Good thing for Belinda. Bucs fans are as likely to forgive him for 
> giving up that hit to Cabrera as Red Sox fans are likely to forgive
> Buckner for that error. Not a chance!
    
    The thing of it is, as with Buckner but perhaps even more so (because
    at least Buckner truly did commit a heinously bad error), placing the 
    full or even most of the blame on Belinda for *that game* is entirely 
    wrong.  The guy came into a bases-loaded, no out situation and against 
    tough odds almost preserved the lead, and only did give up the one hit 
    in his stint.  Jose Lind was the true goat and even Doug Drabek made 
    things very tough by finally blowing his cool and walking the winning 
    run on base.  Alas, all but a few remember only the last play of the 
    game, and react accordingly.
    
    Now, of course there are plenty of reasons to dislike Belinda and his
    general performance with the Pirates based on many, many games of
    lesser importance...
    
    glenn
       

Glenn, are you sure it was bases loaded and no outs?? What was the sequence
of events in that inning??

The Crazy Met

    
    
>> 						What was the sequence
>>of events in that inning??                           
    
    Events was, Bucs were winning, Belinda came in, Bucs lost, same as it
    ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was...
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Can't blame Belinda for last night.  Bucs were doing pretty well until
    the rain delay.  Nice triple play.

	What happened?  The last I heard it was tied at 2 in the 8th and
	was delayed by rain.



	billl

    Cards knocked a couple out of the park.  I don't know what the final
    was.

    The guy from SportsCenter or Baseball tonight screwed up, and BRIAN
    Jordan hit a HR for St. Louis, not RICKEY Jordan, right?  I didn't
    miss a trade between the top 2 teams in the NL East, did I?
    

It was, indeed, Brian Jordan with his 2nd HR of the game that put the Cards on\
top to stay.  Final was 4-2.

Jim().

PS - That was a nice triple play, even if it went against my Cards.  I like to 
see stuff like that happen, no matter who is pulling it off.

    After the rain delay, the firsted two pitches the jerk on the mound
    threw(cain't remember his name) went over the wall.
    
    JaKe
    

    Da Cards Mark Whitton(sp?) cranked one off a Blause Minor tonite, big
    blue's tale-o-da-tape set at 464 feet.
    
    It was only the tenth time someone has hit a home run into the top
    level of Three Rivers Stadium, with Willie Stargell having hit 4 of
    those, and Greg Luzinski, Bob Robertson, Jeff Bagwell, and Bobby
    Bonilla having reached there also(con't remember who hit the other
    one).
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs beat the Cards tonite, 8-6, with Lonnie Smith hitting a solo homer
    in the 8th, and Al Martin hitting a 2 run HR also in the 8th for the
    win.
    
    Twas a see-saw type game up until the eighth.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    How was the triple play done?
    

    Leaping grab of a line drive by the shortstop.  Thrown to second for 2,
    on to first for the triple play.

    Bucs helped out the Philthydelfia Philthy's tonite, knocking off the
    Cards.
    
    Jeff King knocked in the winning run with a one out bases loaded single
    in the bottom of the 11th inning.
    
    In other baseball news, the Mucking Fets still SUCK!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    This news JUST in :
    
    
    The Pirates STILL suck, but not as bad as the Mucking Fets, who trail
    BOTH  expansion teams.
    
    JaKe
    
    

old news JaKe - been that way for most of the season, though there
was a shirt stretch about 10 days ago where the Mets had a better
record than the Rockies.

The Crazy Met

    Bucs beat the Giants tonite, 10-3.
    
    Bucs knocked John Burkett(sp?) around pretty hard, getting 3 in the
    first on Jeff King's 3 run dinger, then two in the second on Carlos
    Garcia's round tripper, and three more in the third.  Al Martin also
    had a homer for the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Steve Cooke pitched a strong 8 innings lasted night, giving up three
    runs, striking out 5, and walking none.
    
    He evened his record at 7-7.  His 7 wins are the most for a Pirate
    rookie left-hander since John Candelaria went 8-6 in 1975.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lost to the Giants lasted night as Mr. October_NOT borke out of
    his 0-12 slump .vs. his former team at Three Rivers by hitting 2 hrs,
    an rbi double and a single.  
    
    Bucs and Giants are playing as I write this, with the Giants leading
    1-0.
    
    JaKe
    

	And we have TCM to thank for it!


	billl

    
    >>                      -< nice KOD in ::BASEBALL >-

    >>	And we have TCM to thank for it!
    
    Leave it to TCM to try and bring the Bucs down to the level of the
    Mucking Fets.  But we know that couldn't happen cause most of the Bucs
    have an IQ that is a higher number than their shoe size, unlike the
    complete Mucking Fets team, who has a cumulative IQ of about 13, and
    the common sense level of common dirt.
    
    JaKe
    

    I thought it was GEorge Mawieski (sp?), not TCM.

	Ya had me wonderin' there, Mac. I went back and checked (25.1795
	in ::BASEBALL) and that not-so-lovable TCM was the culprit.


	hth
	billl

    Yeah, you're right.  I was thinking of George's rebuttal to TCM in
    which he stated BB would probably put one into the seats at his next at
    bat.

    Bucs lost again to the Giants yesterday, 6-3.
    
    JaKe
    

    Randy tomlin will go on the DL Friday, and will be out the rest of the
    season.  he will have arthroscopic surgery on his elbow to remove a
    bone spur.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs get shelled again in LA, film destroyed at 11.
    
    JaKe
    

Must have been somethin' in that So Cal drinking water last night.
Dodgers won 13-4.
Padres won 17-4 and got 13 runs in the first inning.

The Crazy Met

    
>>Padres won 17-4 and got 13 runs in the first inning.
    
    Hooo did the Padres play??????
    
    As fer the Dodgers, they ran up against the sh_t pitching of the
    Pirates, and walked away AGAIN with the win.
    
    JaKe
    

Padres played the Cards. As the game was starting the announcer on ESPN said
that ths Cards GM or Scouting director or somethin' of that sort was
had said that the kid pitchin' for the Cards was ahead of where they
thought he would be (Ithink the pitcher was Alan Watson). No sooner
he finishes that comment and the first 6 Padres (or so) reach base.

The Crazy Met

    Sheez, with a 13 run first, I thought the Padres mught have played the
    Mucking Fets with Bret Bleach-erhagen pitching.
    
    JaKe
    

    Why'd the Pirates let Belinda go?  He was murder on the Sox this
    weekend.

    re.322
    
    Cain you say "Brain Dead Management", trying to erase the memory of
    Francisco "who" Cabrera.
    
    JaKe
    

 >>	What I don't understand (among other 
 >>     things) is why you guys ragged on him for it and then became
 >>     suicidal when he left. 

	You don't understand why we ragged on him for it??????  You're
	kidding right?!

	As far as "becoming suicidal when he left" goes I don't know who 
	you are taling about.  You won't find any 'burgh baseball fans,
	in here anyway, who were disappointed when he left.  Good riddance,
	Adios, Si-ah-narro!


	billl

    Bucs beat the Dodgers after the rain delays.  No other details, thank
    God.
    
    JaKe
    

    Leyland returns from suspension, Steve Cooke pitches complete game,
    getting ninth win, most by a Pirate rookie since Woody Fryman won 12
    back in the 60's, Al Martin drives in 4 runs, Bucs win 5-1.
    
    JaKe
    

Mets beat the Bucs for the second straight game - for a team that has won
2 straight very few times this year it is nice to do it against the Bucs.
As far as I can figure Mets have won 3 straight once this year, maybe twice,
and have never won 4 straight. I wonder if any other team has ever pulled off 
such feats of ineptitude.

The Crazy Met

    Give it up Craze. Time to start rooting for the next NY loser,
    the stRangers.
    
    MikeL
    

    Da BUcs felt sorry fer the Mucking Fets, Hail, they was 9-3 .vs. the
    Mucking Fets entering last nights game.
    
    JaKE
    

    The Pirates have some hope fer next year, John Hope, 22 yr old pitcher,
    that is.  Hope has pitched well since being called up at the beginning
    of the month, including 7 strong innings lasted night.  In his previous
    outing, he had pitched the first three innings, not allowed a base
    runner, and hurt himself whilst baserunning er something and had to
    leave the game.
    
    Word is that he'll go into spring training with a realistic chance of
    breaking into the starting rotation fer next year.
    
    Tim Wakefield on the other hand ay be out finding a job next spring,
    pumping gas er something, cause he had ABSOLUTELY none of the magic
    that helped him go 8-1 in his rookie season.
    
    Oh well, at lest NEXT YEAR the Bucs should finish ahead of the Mucking
    Fets AGAIN.
    
    BTW, TCM, It appears to me that yer Mucking Fets are going to finish
    BEHIND BOT expansion teams!!!!  Sorry sight, eh??
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    
    JaKe
    

    Sorry sight indeed, JaKe. Been saying that for quite a while.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Phillies clinch the NL East with a win over the Pirates.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    re-.1
    
    Right. The Pirates showed exactly why they didn't contend this year. 
    NO PITCHING!!!  When ya bring in Denny Neagle with the bases loaded,
    then he proceeds to walk in the run on his first five pitches, and then
    gives up a grand slammer, the guys a waste of warm blood.
    
    Sure as hell hope the Bucs find SOMETHING to help this pitching staff
    out, cause they SURE SUCK right now, and all year long they ahve.
    
    JaKe
    

    Well, the Bucs are saying that without revenue sharing, they will be in
    bankruptcy by October.  Guess they're setting we Bucco fans up for
    another spring of LOUSY FREE AGENT SIGNINGS!!!
    
    BUT, Pirates CEO Carl Barger announced today that the team is 
    
    
    
                      ---------------------------------
                      |                               |
                      |                               |
                      |           F O R               |
                      |                               |
                      |          S A L E              |
    		      |				      |
    		      |           Call                |
    		      |				      |
    		      |		1-800-BUY-BUCS	      |
    		      |                               |
    		      ---------------------------------
    				|	|
    				|	|
    				|	|
    			       ~~~~~~~~~~~
    
    BUT, they are only being offered to prospective buyers who will keep
    the team in Pittsburgh(and the check's in the mail, ha-ha).
    
    Howard Baldwin, who owns the Pittsburgh Penguins has already expressed
    interest in buying at least a majority portion of the Pirates.
    
    Guess we just have to wait and see.
    
    JaKe
    

                                                          
    > BUT, Pirates CEO Carl Barger announced today that the team is
    
    Is Barger still haunting the Pirates from the grave?  I thought the guy
    did enough damage with his contract decisions while alive...  ;-)
    
    I guess among the other part-owners in the consortium my old friends 
    at C-MU did not prove to be the financial savior of this franchise.  
    Could it be that they were just in it for a buck?  From the $50M
    purchase price, whether the team stays or goes they'll all take a
    healthy profit from the venture, if and when they sell...
    
    glenn
    

    OK, so I got the wrong name, I heard the news report and couldn't
    remember thename and Barger was stuck there but didn't seem right but
    fer some reason...I dunno.
    
    JaKe
    

 
	PITTSBURGH (UPI) -- Pittsburgh Mayor Tom Murphy said Wednesday
developers have approached him over the last couple of months to express
their interest in building a new privately owned stadium in the city.
	Murphy would not identify the developers, other than to say they are
not the ones mentioned as interested in buying the Pirates baseball
team. Howard Baldwin, owner of the Penguins hockey team, and Bill Craig,
president of the KBL cable television network, reportedly are interested
in buying the Pirates and possibly Three Rivers Stadium where the
baseball team plays along with the football Steelers.
	The Pirates are owned by Pittsburgh Associates, a group of public and
private investors.
	Murphy says the city would have to entertain any proposals to buy the
Pirates and Three Rivers Stadium with the understanding the city wants
the team to remain in Pittsburgh.
    

    I think they should nuke 3 Rivers Stadium and build a decent baseball
    stadium, wif a REAL grass field.   Or just leave 3 Rivers fer the
    STEELERS.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs asking price is reported to be aobut $100 mil, and their
    liabilities right now are set at $40 million(not including salaries).
    
    Howard Baldwin, owner of the Pens is reported to be offering about $70
    mil, and Bill Craig of KBL SPorts, owned by TCI, is putting an offer in
    soon, but nobody knows how much it'll be.  there is a report that the
    guy who owns the Filthydelfia Phlyers is going to get in the bidding
    war soon, too, but supposedly he's denying any intent to buy the Bucs.
    
    JaKe
    

    The sale of the Bucs is getting more interesting.  Two more potential
    buyers have come forward, AND, it was reported that the Bucs have used
    up their "line of credit" with the league and, for all intents and
    purposes, cannot refuse any halfway decent offer.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs start out the new season getting shellaqued by the Gnats,
    (although I missed the final, was on the road).
    
    JaKe
    

	So far, the question is more than "When will the bucs win their
	first game?".  The question at hand is "When will they score their
	first RUN?"

	
	billl

    billl,
    
    Stil smartin' over Barry's exodus huh? The Bucs coulda been a contenda!
    
    Maj

	Maj,

	Yunz done cornfused me wit Mac.  He's the one with the neverending
	broken record.


	billl

    billl, I hafta give you Pittsburghers credit.  Here we are a couple of
    days into the Baseball season and nary a note has been entered by youze
    guys on Barry Bonds.
    
    Hey, 'Saw, was billll crying into his Fenway beer over Barry yesterday?

    BTW, in addition to scoring 2 runs, the Bucs ALLOWED the Gnats to score
    4 runs, including 1 on a homer by Mr. October_NOT.  They are now 0-3
    and glad to be getting out of San Francisco.
    
    JaKe
    

Bill wasn't whining about Barry Bonds, but he did get very
upset when I starte the Tomahawk Chop....

FWIW though, Bill and I single-handedly won Monday's game
with our Rally Caps....


'saw

Cleaned up version.  (8^)*
    
               <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 34.346                 *Pittsburgh Pirate Note*                  346 of 348
PTOVAX::JACOB "An ordinary, average guy"             13 lines   6-APR-1994 18:58
                         -< Ask and you shall receive >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, the Bucs scored their firsted runs of 1994 today, after 23
    consecutive innings of being shut out.  Actually, they scored two runs,
    both on a 2-run homer by Andy Van Slyke.
    
    Fer Mac, "Wah-Wah" is still an feces spewing orifice, just an extremely 
    gifted feces spewing orifice.  Heard a radio interview by Bucs color man 
    Bob Walk yesterday, and Bonds is still a 9 year old trapped in an extremely
    gifted 29 year old athlete's body.
    
    Jus fer you, MtfM.
    
    JaKe
    

    Well, the Bucs just may go 0-162 this year, ya never know.  They lost
    to the Rockies 2night.
    
    Bob Walk is the new Bucs color man.  Talk about a bad move.  The guy
    sucks.  he over analyzes EVERY freakin' pitch.  Got sick of listening
    to him fer 3 innings tonight. Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-yewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
    
    
    JaKe
    
    

    Bring back Jim Rooker!

    Walk's a perfect guy to announce for a Pittsburgh team.  He's still
    whining about Barry Bonds.

	MAC = 20 Torr

	It'll be a while before anyone can replace "The Gunner".  My dad
	had a different name for him, "Mushmouth".


	billl

>	MAC = 20 Torr

Oh no.  20 Torr would like cause a serious sucking sound that would
be heard all the way around the world I'd bet.....

Then everyone would say "How much does that suck?"

    
>>Then everyone would say "How much does that suck?"
    
    Then the rating would change from "Torr" to "Mac's".
    
    JaKe
    

    Keep this up 'Sawmain and purty soon you'll have yo' own TORR.
    
    Muchos of course
    MikeL
    

>    Keep this up 'Sawmain and purty soon you'll have yo' own TORR.
    
How much would THAT suck?    

    re-.1
    
    That'd be a 6.4 MAC.
    
    JaKe
    

I wanna MEET this Maureen!

dr.a

>I wanna MEET this Maureen!

No, take my word for it, you really DON'T wanna meet Maureen.  
She's married now anyway, unless of course her husband died of extreme
exhaustion....

5 Torr has its price.....

> She's married now anyway

so what is your point????

The Crazy Met

>
>so what is your point????
>


That she's probably giving all of that *attention*, all of the Torr as it
were, to one guy she won't switch from, unless he dies of course, as opposed
to what things were like before, where something new, fresh, and possibly
better could come along, one things were, used up, shall we say....


'Saw

    Bucs continue to beat the Braves, winning their 5th game against them
    in the last 6 meetings.  Denny Neagle went 8 innings lasted night,
    giving up only 4 hits.  Rick White got his 5th save in 6 tries.
    
    Alejandro Pena was activated after the game.
    
    JaKe
    

	I don't care if they don't win another series the rest of the season
	(well, not really) as long as they beat the crap out of those bums
	with that stupid chop!



	billl

    And here's the throw to LaValliere!!! Bream slides!! He's SAFE!!
    
    Braves WIN!!!!!!!
    
    
    Ya think Spanky heard that at the game billl?
    
    8^)
    MikeL
   

	That's the very reason why beating the pants off of them so far this 
	season has been soooooo sweet for this Bucs fan.

	re Van Slyke:

	You must be yankin' me chain agin!  What would the BoSox need Andy for
	with the speed demon Nixon out in center?



	billl

    The rumor in the boston rags is Van Slyke to Boston for pitcher Paul
    Quantrill (plus?).  Boston plays Van Slyke in rightfield.

    ...And some other Triple A pitcher (Van Vagabond or something like
    that).
    
    NAZZ

 INteresting to see Boston trying to make a move instead of sitting on
 thier laurels. Love to hear Glenn's cut on this????????
 
 mike

    re -1
    
    > ...And some other Triple A pitcher (Van Vagabond
    
    NAZZ - I hope you & the Boston rags are not serious about dealing Tim
    Vanegmond (van-egg-mond).  Right now, I would predict that he has the
    stuff to be more of a steady reliable pitcher than Frankie Rodriguez.
    
    I'm not sold yet on Gar Finvold, who also matched Vanegmond's 4-0
    record for the month of April down in Pawtucket.  But I'd hate to see
    Vanegmond go.   

    no mention of this trade in the Pittsburgh paper.....

> no mention of this trade in the Pittsburgh paper.....

yeah, well, they're still catching up on the news they missed during that
X month strike :-) Pony Express could also be a problem :-)

The Crazy Met

    Van Vagabond... good one Nazz...
    
> INteresting to see Boston trying to make a move instead of sitting on
> thier laurels. Love to hear Glenn's cut on this????????
    
    Seriously, I wouldn't give up much right now for a 33-year-old,
    injury-hampered, $4.5M-salaried OF in his option year and on his way
    out at the end of the year anyway.  And I've always liked Van Slyke; 
    he's had a fine career.  I think I'd want to see the Sox in first 
    place on or around August 15 before I'd consider giving up any young 
    prospects, including Vanegmond, in the kind of a deal that should only
    be considered in order to make a serious run at the whole thing (and
    that's still an unrealistic thought).  It's a Lou Gorman move, 
    something that Dan Duquette should not be tempted by and cause him to 
    change his approach, which is already yielding results to some
    degree in Boston but dramatically at Pawtucket and in the system as a
    whole.
    
    glenn
      

    And Quantrill + Vanegmond ain't cheap.

    Bucs got SWEPT by the Philthy-a-delfia Philthys this weekend, again
    proving that the worst of pitchers cain look good if yer playing the
    Bucs.
    
    In the 4 games series, they were 3-45 with runners in scoring position,
    including 0-12 yesterday.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Power Outtage Continues.
    
    bucs lost to St. Louis lasted night, 2 zip.
    
    Losing again tonight.
    
    JaKe
    

    Mets score 3 times in the top of the 9th to beat the Pigsturd *ucs 4-2.
    
    Just wanted to make sure this note got some activity :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

	That's just like you, TCS, to gloat over a last place team in one
	division beating a fourth place team in another division in late May.

	What's the countdown for your "* in '94" p-name to change?


	billl

oh, your absolutely right, lasted night's game meant absolutely 
nothing.

The Crazy Met

oh, your absolutely right, lasted night's game meant absolutely 
    ^^^^
    you're

Pay attention TCS...

The 'Cadet

    Bucs salvaged one game of the three against the Mucking Fets by winning
    a pitcher's duel today,
    
    
    
    Final score was 11-10.  The Bucs starting pitching has been fairly
    decent, but the bullpen is stinking out the joint.  That coupled with
    the hitting woes has lead the Bucs to within 1/2 game of lasted place.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    it also helped that of the 11 runs the Pirates scored yesterday, 8 of 
    them were unearned. I think the Mets had 3 errors in one inning
    alone...
    
    Not a good year for Pirate baseball.....

> Not a good year for Pirate baseball.....

depends on your perspective.

GO RANGERS!

The Crazy Met

> Not a good year for Pirate baseball.....

	Last I checked they've still got a better record than the Mucking
	Fets, though.


	billl

            1994 Major League Baseball Regular Season Standings
re: .385

At least not as of this morning.

                           Friday, May 27, 1994

                        Won  Lost  Pct.   GB   Last 10  Streak    Home   Away
NATIONAL WEST
Los Angeles Dodgers      26   21   .553    --    6-4     Won 1   14-08  12-13
San Francisco Giants     23   24   .489   3.0    3-7     Won 2   14-09  09-15
Colorado Rockies         20   25   .444   5.0    4-6    Lost 1   10-15  10-10
San Diego Padres         13   34   .277  13.0    3-7    Lost 2   09-15  04-19

NATIONAL CENTRAL
Cincinnati Reds          27   19   .587    --    4-6     Won 1   15-07  12-12
St. Louis Cardinals      24   20   .545   2.0    6-4     Won 1   11-11  13-09
Houston Astros           25   21   .543   2.0    7-3     Won 1   13-10  12-11
Pittsburgh Pirates       20   24   .455   6.0    3-7     Won 1   15-12  05-12
Chicago Cubs             19   25   .432   7.0    8-2    Lost 1   08-14  11-11

NATIONAL EAST
Atlanta Braves           28   16   .636    --    6-4    Lost 1   11-09  17-07
Montreal Expos           26   19   .578   2.5    7-3     Won 2   12-08  14-11
Florida Marlins          23   23   .500   6.0    4-6    Lost 2   12-14  11-09
New York Mets            22   23   .489   6.5    3-7    Lost 1   09-10  13-13
Philadelphia Phillies    22   24   .478   7.0    7-3    Lost 1   15-08  07-16

    Bucs used a display of defense(not), pitching(not), and offense(save
    fer Jay Bell's grand slam, NOT) lasted night in barely losing to the
    San Dego Padres, 15-5.  The Padres scored 13 runs in the second inning.
    
    Guess there must be something depressing about being down 13-0 as you
    come to bat in the third, huh???
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs lost AGAIN today to that powerhouse of the NL West, the San
    Diego Padres, 6-4.
    
    But things are looking up, the Bucs actually led for 2 innings during
    the game by two runs, but then the "never to be trusted" relievers took
    over and cemented the loss.
    
    I hate to say it, but I think this team is even worse thatn the Mucking
    Fets!!!1
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

	Barry Bonds is a jerk!




	billl

    Bucs still suck, film at 11.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs lost to the Gnats today, 4-3.
    
    Steve Cooke had a good outing, after a shaky first inning.  He gave up
    only 3 hits and one run, only to have the effort wasted by Alejandro
    Pena giving up 3 runs in the 9th.  Dave Clarke hit a 2 run homer with
    two outs in the ninth to close the Bucs to within a run, but Jay Bell
    popped out to end the game.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won their 3rd straight tonite, beating the Marlins, 5-3?
    
    JaKe
    

    
     it's nice to see that the Pirates can still break out the brooms in
    NYC....
    
    The team is now playing .500 ball (not sure if it will last though)
    
    Eric

>>    it's nice to see that the Pirates can still break out the brooms in
>>    NYC....
 
	It couldn't have happened against a better club, eh TCS?


	billl

Not a pretty weekend. I guess it is comforting that Pirate fans can
only find something to celebrate when the Bucs play a last place club.

The Crazy Met

>> Not a pretty weekend. I guess it is comforting that Pirate fans can
>> only find something to celebrate when the Bucs play a last place club.

	So you think the Mets suck, too?!


	billl

    Did the Mucs(tm) play the Scrubs(tm)?

billl

I've always thought that a .500 record for 1994 would be an accomplishment.

The Crazy Met

    Bucs have won 7 of their lasted 8 games, beating Chicargo today at
    Wrigley, 6-5.
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey TCM, with the Mucking Fets starting to self destruct, and the Bucs
    finally starting to resemble a .500 team, that p-name bet fer the end
    of the season is already starting to look good.
    
    That is, if either one of is still around by then.
    
    JaKe
    

    yeah a few weeks ago it looked the other way. long way to go. but with
    Gooden out until August ...
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Guess he couldn't keep his nose out of the powder, eh???
    
    JaKe
    

    	I don't know if the baseball guidelines are like football, but
    in the NFL violating your aftercare could consist of having alcohol
    in your blood when it's tested.  Now while MADD would probably want
    to string me up for saying this, I don't think having a few beers is 
    quite the same as doing the white again.
    
    				  /Don

>    I don't know if the baseball guidelines are like football, but
>    in the NFL violating your aftercare could consist of having alcohol
>    in your blood when it's tested. 
    
    While I agree with your point, /Don, I don't think this is the case in
    baseball.  There have been ballplayers suspended for cocaine use and 
    subject to this policy who have made no secret of their love for beer 
    (Keith Hernandez comes immediately to mind).  But it is possible, however
    remotely, that Gooden's refusal to take a couple of his scheduled tests 
    is for reasons other than cocaine use...
    
    glenn
    

    The Bucs released Alejandro Pena yesterday(30-June) and called up some
    kid from the minors to groom him as a closer. Leyland wasn't happy with
    the move but said he has to live with it. Says it was all GM Cam
    Bonifay's doings.
    
    Also, the Bucs beat the Reds, 6-4.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs still suck, Film at 11.
    
    Pitching staff stinks, bats are silent, gloves are only thing working
    as advertised.
    
    JaKe
    

    Mercker was great.  Two complete games in two days (Maddux and Merk).  
    Hope we get some more offense though.
    
    UMDan

    Hey youse Pitts folks, hows come their was only 18,147 at the game last
    night?  The weather looked good.  Hope the fans aren't giving up on the
    Bucs.
    
    And yes, the Braves stunk the joint up last night!
    
    UMDan	
    

    'cause there was a newspaper strike there about two years ago.

    Bucs beat the Braves tonight, 5-4.  Bucs finish their season series wif
    the Braves winning 9 of 12.
    
    JaKe
    

	Still wadin' through the over 900 unseens since the July 8th, but 
	wanted to get in here somewhere.

	Had a great vaca in the 'burgh.  Didn't get into the Allstar game.
	(the 'burgh is now short one Lt on it's police force and I have
	disowned one brother-in-law)  Did get to the 7/14 game against the
	Astros.  Leibner(sp?) looked a little shakey in spots on the mound,
	but had some good stuff when he needed it.

	Got quite a chuckle when they announced the attendence (around
	15700).  Looked a whole lot closer to 5700.  Sure was nice to
	not have to stand in line to get a brewski like at Fenway.  Nothing
	like having a 16 ouncer poured for you without having to miss a 
	whole inning waiting in a line.

	

	billl

	JaKe, I don't know where you came up with that lame explanation
	of the "Chicken on the Hill with Will" line, but I knows fer
	a fack dat he did/does own a chicken franchise that gave away 
	chicken when he smacked one out.

	Or are you just bustin' me yeggies?


	billl

    I ain't bustin ya. I had a yearbook when I was a kid that told that
    whole story about Stargell.   Just never forgot the story.
    
    JaKe
    

>    I ain't bustin ya. I had a yearbook when I was a kid that told that
>    whole story about Stargell.   Just never forgot the story.
    
Only good thing you Burghers have seen in a while -- that's why you never
fergot....8^)    

    re.414
    
    Devour fecal excrement, Sawmain!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

>    re.414
>    
>    Devour fecal excrement, Sawmain!!!
>    
>    (8^)*
    
And then I should expire, right?    

>    re.414
>    
>    Devour fecal excrement, Sawmain!!!
>    
>    (8^)*
    

btw, Jake, Jake, that's redundant redundant....

    So so who who the the f_ck f_ck cares cares anymore anymore here here,
    sawmain sawmain ? ?
    
    JaKe JaKe
    

>
>    So so who who the the f_ck f_ck cares cares anymore anymore here here,
>    sawmain sawmain ? ?
>    

Well, s-s-s-someone h-h-has t-t-t-t-to.....
    

	Pirates for sale.  Not sure of the asking price but they want to
	keep the team in Pittsburgh.

	Kevin

    The Pirates BoD met this morning and invoked the clause in their
    contract with the city that gives the city 6 months to come up with a
    buyer(s) who will keep the team in the Burgh.  After that 6 months, the
    current consortium(see a$$holes) are free to seek a buyer from
    anywhere, even one who may move the team.
    
    There a re a few prospective buyers at this point, including Malcolm
    Baldwin who owns the Penguins, and KBL SPorts, the local station that
    owns alla the rights to broadcasting the Bucs and the Pens.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Phoenix Pirates has a nice ring to it.

    yea, I like it.

    re.421
    
    Sorry, Brain cramp, it's HOWARD Baldwin, not Malcolm.
    
    Another prospective owner is Allegheny County COntroller Frank
    Lucchino's brother, (mumble) Lucchino, who is a former president of the
    Baltimore Orioles.
    
    JaKe
    

    Hey Mikey,
    
    Why don't you submit a bid fer them???
    
    JaKe
    

    >    Why don't you submit a bid fer them???
    
    I'd love to, but I'm all out of quarters.

I think there was someone in DEC who wanted to put in a bid for the Celtics
back in 1984?5?6? when they were last sold; wanted to use profits and
cash flow of the team to pay back the loan. Even got to the point of
meeting with some banks. Pirates of course don't have that kind of revenue.

The Crazy Met

    I've been picking up aluminum cans beside the road fer a week now, and
    I have $7.31 saved.  Think if I offered them that, plus 600 points on
    those cardboard inserts in Mallo-Cups I could buy the team???
    
    Worth a try???
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    I think if REK tossed in a couple dogs, you might have a shot.

The local folks in the press are reporting that George Shinn, owner o'
the Hornets, is fixin' to buy them Pirates. The catch seems to be Shinn's
desire to then move them to Charlotte. 

If'n Pittsburgh puts a no-can-move-the-Bucos clause in, Shinn's out.

TTom

    
    Shinn, if he wants to move the Pirates, can't make an offer for 6
    months.  There is a clause that states the city has 6 months to find a
    buyer(s) who will keep the team in the city. After that....the Pirates
    are free agents....
    
    Couple interested parties formed who want to buy the Pirates. It is
    rumoured that Dan Marino is part of one. ....

    There's also the guy who owns Adelphia cable systems is working on
    making an offer, but he has hinted he may want a baseball only stadium
    as part of the deal.
    
    JaKe
    

    I have an idear.  I think I'll try to get the powers that be to
    convince Madonna to buy the Bucs.  Hell, she may even show up in some
    state of undress to sing the National ANthem once in a while, and think
    of the uniforms these guys would have to wear, complete with them
    inverted cone thangs across their chests.
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    What's an idear?
    
    Mark.

  Haven't you evah been to Boston?

  Idears often come aftah you pak the cah or when you take vacations on
Mathah's Vin'yad. 

  Back in '62 one famous Bostonian had to come up with some good idears quick
due to problems in Cuber. 

  George

    
    >>What's an idear?
    
    >>Mark.
    
    It's what homegrown Massholes say instead of "idea".  they also add the
    "R" to Pizza, making it "pizzar".  But, they drop the "r" from car,
    pronouncing it like "cah".
    
    go figgur
    
    JaKE
    

  Well, it's not all of Massachusetts. It's pretty much limited to people who
grow up in Boston or up on the north shore.

  The dialect which moves the "r's" around is basically what's left over from
the Irish accent (Irish broak?).

  Ah that's a nice cah you have thah laddie, be take'en it fer a drive now
ah yeah?

  George

    I think it is Irish brogue.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Da bucs lost tonight to the Cards, 11-3.
    
    C'mon strike, hurry up and get here and put this bad team out of it's
    misery.
    
    JaKe
    

Actually George, it doesn't come from Irish at all.

There's a small segment of England where English is spoken that is very
similar to what happens up in Massachusetts.  I forget where, since I 
saw on that PBS series 'The History of English."  Somewhere at home I have
the companion book and could probably look it up.

At any rate, a lot of the folks who migrated here over the years were from
that area, and that's why the accent "invaded" New England.

Once here, it of course evolved a little on its own.  There are parts of
speech down here in Connecticut that you can trace back (idear is commonly
said) and even a variation on the Maine "a-yuh" affirmative....


'Saw

    
      Don't look now but Bob Ryan has an article in today's Globe
     about spoiled athletes and Barry Bonds is the poster boy.

	Geez. he must be 'thankless' Pirate fan, too.


	billl

    
       The article about how we ("we"?) spoil athletes recounts how
      Barry had his $15,000 a month alimony halved by a judge because 
      of the strike even though Barry has already earned $3.4 million
      this year. The judge agreed to halve Barry's alimony and then
      asked Barry for his autograph. In court.

	Sounds like a prime candidate for disbarring.


	billl

    Why should he be disbarred?  Child support is one thing, but being an
    ex-wife of someone who is in the top 1% of his profession shouldn't
    entitle you to a lifetime of leeching.

 Aplause Aplause.......

                <<< Note 34.447 by FRETZ::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>
                          -< some ex-wives find jobs >-

    Why should he be disbarred?  Child support is one thing, but being an
    ex-wife of someone who is in the top 1% of his profession shouldn't
    entitle you to a lifetime of leeching.

	For a judge to make a decision like this and then follow it up
	with a request for an autograph is why I think he has no business
	on the bench.

	I'm not referring to the fact that he reduced some poor schmuck's
	alimony, because the union, said schmuck belongs to, decides to go
	out on strike.  We're talking about someone who took home over $3M.

	I got no problem with a wife being forced to find a job before
	alimony is considered, but I got a big problem when folks with
	lots of ca$h can get the best of a court system, or at least
	one slimeball of a judge.

	I know, I know.  It's not the first time and it probably won't be
	the last time, but that don't mean I gotta like the taste of it.


	billl

Kids should get child support, no doubt about it.

Ex-wives should get jobs.  They want equality every other way, let them
earn their own way.....


JMHO,
'Saw

    ...and I thought I was going to get blasted after hitting F10 on that
    one.

    You know its kind of interesting.  I was listening to a national radio
    sports show concerning Barry Bonds.  They were busting his balls pretty
    good.  They said something to the effect that the guy is a dirt bag
    because he makes 3 million dollars a year and somehow got to cut child
    support from 15,000 to 7,500 a month.  Barry Bonds used the excuse that
    he is out on strike and is not making near as much money.  The same
    Sports guy is favoring the players in the strike.  Well I got to
    thinking.  How are Barry Bonds and the owners any different?  The
    owners say that the revenues are shrinking and they cannot pay any more
    and actually would like to pay less.  Well guess what...Barry Bonds 
    revenues have shrunk and he cannot pay what he use to...
    

    
    Bonds is stgill paying for the house she lives in and her car(s).  She
    ain't gonna starve.
    
    brews

    Why are we discussing Barry Bonds in the Pirate notes? 

	It's Tommy's fault.  He started it.

	Did not

	Did too.

	(I just wanted to get a jump on everyone.)


	billl

    
    
    booooooooo!  are we still talking about Barry Bonds?  boooooooooooooo

    re: why are we talking about Barry Bonds
    
    Ok, let's change the subject...
    
    How about that Bobby Bonilla...good buy turned head case, and rich...
    booooooooo!  are we still talking about Bobby Bonilla?  boooooooooooooo
    
    Pat

    Bobbt Bo will make it to 400 today
    
    
    $400 K lost in the strike.

	For the uninformed...

	The previous replies would be more at home in the Mucking Fets(tm)
	note.


	billl

did the Mets get Barry Bonds???

The Crazy Met

>> did the Mets get Barry Bonds???

>> The Crazy Met
    
    TCM,
    
       still pissed that the Mets signed the wrong BB from the Pirates? 8^)
    
    eric

    The Pirates, 4 months ago exercised an option in their contract with
    the city to give the city 6 months to find a new owner for the team,
    that would keep the team in Pittsburgh, or they would be allowed to
    sell the team to whomever they want to.
    
    The city has reached agreement with a buyer, John Rigas,
    owner/CEO.Chief cook and bottle washer of Adelphia Cable TV Co. out of
    Coudersport, Pa.
    
    Rigas and the city reached agreement on stadium lease concessions, the
    probability of a new baseball only stadium, the assumption of the teams
    $60 million in debt other operational aspects of the team.
    
    Rigas must now come to terms with the current ownership consortium on
    exact purchase price, then get approval for the sale from the league.
    
    The team, upon approavl of the sale, would be owned by Rigas, his wife,
    and his sons.
    
    JaKe
    

JaKe, do you know anything about this guy Rigas?  I mean, keeping the Pirates
in Pittsburgh and getting them out of Three Rivers qualifies him presumptively
as a good guy.  But you know as well as I do that there is something about
owning a major league baseball franchise that has a strong attraction for
the south end of a horse going north.

Steve

    Well, by the stuff I've read(suprise, I CAIN read) he's a good guy. 
    ALso, he's gots mucho bucks to infuse into the team and turn them
    around, hopefully.
    
    JaKe
    

For you Pittsburghers who are mourning the current state of the Bucs and
the recent demise of the Steelers, a book tip.

MAZ AND THE '60 BUCS by Jim O'Brien, self published (1993).  He is also the
author of two books about the glory days of the Steelers (DOING IT RIGHT and
WHATEVER IT TAKES).  If the book can't be found in stores, contact James P.
O'Brien - Publishing / POBox 12580 / Pittsburgh 15241 / 412 - 221 3580.

I found it at Sports Books, Etc., in Springfield, VA, last fall.  It looked
like fun, so I picked it up.  It is pretty standard nostalgia, but done
very well.  He has managed to talk to just about all living members of the
'60 team (Dick Stuart, apparently not mellowed with age, declined to answer
questions or phone messages), as well as with media folks, team officials,
town characters (some of them truly Runyonesque), and just plain folks
(including some of those who accompanied Maz around the bases).  There is
a whole lot of local color, which I (who have never been to Pittsburgh)
found very entertaining--though I never did get to the point where a
reference to Oakland didn't feel like it meant the city across the bay.

O'Brien is a sportswriter, who grew up in Pittsburgh, and as a journalism
student at Pitt made his first contacts with sports figures in the town.
It was he, for example, who was sued for $1.75 million for reporting in
his privately published sports newsletter that two Pirates had duked it
out in the locker room.  His apparently reliable source had got the names
wrong, and it was settled amicably out of court.  He has worked for the
New York Post, and other non-Pittsburgh papers, and seems to be making a
living now as a sort of semi-official voice of Sports in the 'burgh.
Any of you Pittsburghers know any more about him?

I think any baseball fan would enjoy the book (this one did), and a Bucco
fan would have the time of his life.

Steve

    Sounds good, Steve.  I'll have to check it out.
    
    
    billl

    For those who care, or who could care less:
    
    the latest on the proposed sale of the Pirates.
    
    John Rigas, upon whom the City of Pittsburgh bestowed it's blessing as
    thier choice for new owner of the Pirates has been in negotiation with
    the present consortium of owners over his proposal to buy the team.
    
    Rigas has offered $85.15 million for the team, which includes 25.15
    million in cash, and he will assume the team's present debt of $60
    million.  The current owners, who include the City, one local
    university, a couple of businesses, and one or two private owners, have
    balked at the proposal, asking who is responsible for the extimated
    $13.5 million the Pirates will lose this year.
    
    Rigas, in his latest offer, has offered to assume the extra debt, up to
    the estimated figure of $13.5, with the current owners taking on
    anything in excess of that.  Now the current owners, who are so tight
    you couldn't pull a greased pin out of their ass with a tractor, are
    balking at that, saying that they don't know if they want to be
    responsible.
    
    Today comes the story that the investment bankers the current owners
    have hired to handle the sale of the team, have been told to get the
    best offer of the group that wants to move the team to the Washington
    D.C. area.
    
    now, this current consortium that owns the Bucs stated when they bought
    the team in the '80's that their reason for banding together was to
    keep the team in Pittsburgh and that was what they would do when they
    sold the team, also.  So, if they are thinking of selling the team to
    an outside group who will move the team, why the hell did they buy them
    in the firsted place???
    
    these owners have done nothing to further the team, invested none of
    their own money past their initial investment, run up a huge debt level
    against the team, and expect to have the new owner pay for their fiscal
    mismanagement even further.  Seems like the baseball strike
    negotiations, every time they get close, one of em turns into an
    asshole and blows the whole thing further apart.
    
    JaKe
    

>    Today comes the story that the investment bankers the current owners
>    have hired to handle the sale of the team, have been told to get the
>    best offer of the group that wants to move the team to the Washington
>    D.C. area.
    
    All along the implied threat to the Rigas offer has been that it is
    not competitive with bids that could come from _outside_ Pittsburgh
    (because there ain't any others from inside), even though the Rigas 
    bid would very comfortably cover the original investment of the 
    consortium.  But hey, they're baseball owners, they know best...
    
    glenn
    

    What's the latest on the continuing fiscal struggle amongst the
    Pirate owners?  
    
    I'm trying to figure out how much all my Pirate memoribillia will
    skyrocket after the front office takes the plunge off the Westinghouse
    Bridge in search of greener ($$$) pastures.
    
    
    
    billl

    Well, the "negotiations" between John Rigas and the current Pirate
    ownership consortium remain hung up on who will cover the projected and
    actual team losses this season.   rigas says he will cover the whole
    $13.5 mil projected loss, but wants some responsibility on the part of
    current ownership on anything more than that.
    
    The current owners will get back 100% of their initial investment, plus
    hand over in excess of $65 million in debt to whoever buys the club. 
    They originally bought the team with the idea in mind to keep baseball
    in the 'Burgh and said that when they decided to sell, they would only
    want out what they put in.  Well, they've had their ride and will get
    back their investment in full, plus have had the luxury of running up a
    huge debt on the team, and have had the loxury owners box at the
    stadium fer every game.
    
    Now there's word that they may keep the team and try to run it
    themselves(and we'll be in for x more years of poor-mouthing on the
    part of current ownership).
    
    I say selll them to Rigas, let him put some $$$ into the team and try
    and get someone in here who cain play ball instead of fielding what
    equates to a AAA or AA+ ballclub because they "can't afford any good
    players."
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs signed right handed relief pitcher Mike Maddux, reportedly fer
    something like $200k, provided he makes the team.
    
    JaKe
    

    Didn't Maddux play for the Bucs a couple of years ago?
    
    
    billl

    Do you Pirate guys know Haddix nickname and why (two parts) he was
    called it?

    NOpe, billl, Maddux was never with the BUcs.
    
    JaKe
    

    Harvey Haddix was the kitten to differentiate him from Harry "the Cat"
    Brecheen (who killed Boston in '46).

    Harvey Haddix went into the anals[sic] of history for pitching a
    perfect game, maybe just a no hitter, through 12 innings only to
    loose the game in the 13th.  Or was that through 13 to loose in 
    the 14th?  Whatever, he pitched his arm off for alomst a double-
    header to no avail.
    
    
    billl

Haddix pitched twelve perfect innings then lost in the thirteenth.

Last year, this was removed from the record books, and is not counted
as a nohitter.  Only complete hitless games are now listed in the
record as nohitters.  (I personally consider this brain dead.)

Steve

    The 13th inning was strange in the sense that Adcock or Aaron hit the
    homer to win it but passed the other on the bases and was only credited
    with a single or double by the rules of the day.  Burdette I believe
    was the other pitcher.

    34k plus showed up for the Bucs home opener.
    
    Bucs entered 5th(I think) tied 1-1.  bizzarre play, Expo player hits
    ground ball the third, Jeff King fields the ball cleanly and proceeds
    to launch his throw into right field.  One run scores, Orlando Merced
    chases down the ball, throws to the plate to try and stop second run
    from scoring, hits runner in face as he scores, ball careems towards
    dugout.  Bucs catcher(who is he??cain't remember name) chases down
    ball, throws to pitcher Jon Lieber, who apparantely doesn't understand
    the concept of being near the plate to take the thorw, takes the throw
    about 12 miles form home plate, and a third runner scores in the
    meantime.
    
    Ground ball to third, three runs and two errors on the play.   they
    shoulda kept the replacements.
    
    Fans get peaved, start launching plastic tubes which contain Pirate
    flags onto the field, game had to be stopped for 17 minutes while
    cleanup insued.  The Flag/tubes were teh give-a-way item of the night.
    
    Next Pirate give-a-way promotion, the Dave Parker/Duracell battery
    night, in which all outfielders will be given hardhats and shoulder
    pads.
    
    Way to go fans, and I mean it!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    Should I assume that the Bucs went on to loose the game?
    
    
    billl

    Yep. lost 6-2.
    
    Only one game played and already they might as well be eliminated from
    playoff contention.
    
    JaKe
    

    Any update on the sale of the organization/new (real) baseball park?
    
    
    billl

    Current owners and the City, and Rigas met lasted night before the game
    and said the sale should be a done deal(yea right) before next
    wednesday.
    
    As per ballpark, who knows??
    
    JaKe
    

	From ESPNet SportsZone:

Cable television magnate John Rigas is hoping to complete the deal to purchase 
the Pittsburgh Pirates within a week. 

Rigas, the Chairman of Adelphia Communications, met with the Pirates' owners 
and mayor Tom Murphy Wednesday night and expressed optimism. 

Rigas submitted an offer of $85 million for the Pirates March 3rd. Major League 
Baseball's Ownership Committee has already granted preliminary approval to 
Rigas. Rigas has offered $25.15 million to the Pirates' owners for their stock,
agreed to assume more than $60 million in debt and promised to absorb more 
than $3.5 million in financial losses for the upcoming season, according to 
the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.    

>>agreed to assume more than $60 million in debt and promised to absorb more 
>>than $3.5 million in financial losses for the upcoming season, according to 
>>the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.    
    
    That $3.5 mil # is actually projected to be $13.5 million loss this
    season.
    
    In other news, the Bucs, on their way to a 144 game losing streak, lost
    today, 2-1.
    
    The Expos got their first run when Jeff King, agina, mentally blundered
    with runners on first and third, a ball was hit to him and, without
    checking, he went to second for the force out instead of going home. 
    he had more than enough time to get the runner at the plate.  The Bucs
    failed to score and after 8 it was still 1-0, then Jim Gott came in and
    got the firsted two outs, but gave some guy(name excapes me) his
    firsted major league hit, a home run, and they trailed 2 zip.
    
    Jeff King doubled in Midre Cummings to pull the game to within a run in
    the bottom of the 9th, but neither Orlando Merced or Jay Bell could get
    him home from second, Bell struck out looking to end the game, a Mortal
    sin IMHO.
    
    JaKe
    

    Sounds like the mlb players are following in the footsteps of the
    nhl players.  I went to a few Bruins games early on and for the
    most part they all looked like they needed double-runners.
    
    I guess that shows how important spring training is, regardless 
    of how long these guys have been playing.
    
    
    billl

    Official attendance for yesterday's debacle was listed at just over
    7,000, but the local rag said that there were only about 3500 in the
    park.
    
    JaKe
    

    And like someone mentioned in the stike note, unless they start
    winning this will likely not change.
    
    I never thought I'd say this, being a Knot Hole Club member from
    Forbes Field, but I think it's time for the fanchise to move on.
    The city of Pittsburgh and its citizens seem unable, or unwilling, 
    to support the team.  There are several cities chomping at the bit 
    to spend big bucks to lure a mlb team to their town.
    
    
    billl
    

    Ya know, I keep hearing that it's the fans fault that these franchises
    are in trouble, not quite so.
    
    Lessee, the average ticket price in 3 Rivers is, what, about 8 bucks.
    Say the Bucs payroll is at 20 million/yr.  that means they have to sell
    2.5 million tickets to just make the payroll.  In LA or New York, that
    would be equivalent to those teams selling about 8 million tickets,
    based on the potential "draw" of the area.
    
    The real problem is TV revenues.  Steinbrenner can count on over $50
    million/year because of the market he's selling his product in.  When
    you talk Pittsburgh, or Milkwaukee, or Cincy, the market just isn't
    that big and won't pay for every f__king superstar the team wants to
    buy. Maybe if Rigas cain get the team, and start pumping it over his
    cable affiliates, they cain start sucking down better cash than they
    are right now, but I just don't know.
    
    It ain't all the lack of fans showing up at the games, there's more
    behind it.
    
    JaKe
    

>    I never thought I'd say this, being a Knot Hole Club member from
>    Forbes Field

  It's been a long ... long time since I heard someone talk about the
  Knot Hole Club. Kinda brings back fond memories of the ivy cover wall
  and the batting cage parked in center field and #21 doin what he did
  best in right field.

  Described best, by the Gunner, as The House of Thrills. 

	Keith

    
>>                    <<< Note 34.493 by PEAKS::WOESTEHOFF >>>

>>>    I never thought I'd say this, being a Knot Hole Club member from
>>>    Forbes Field

>>  It's been a long ... long time since I heard someone talk about the
>>  Knot Hole Club. Kinda brings back fond memories of the ivy cover wall
>>  and the batting cage parked in center field and #21 doin what he did
>>  best in right field.

>>  Described best, by the Gunner, as The House of Thrills. 

>>	Keith

    
    billl and Keith,
    
    better watch it, putting this kind of stuff in here, Tommy will be
    blasting you for your nostalgia trips.  ya know, it seems like he
    thinks we should only live with what we have nowadays, and forget the
    past.
    
    JaKe
    

    
  >> Fans get peaved, start launching plastic tubes which contain Pirate
  >> flags onto the field, game had to be stopped for 17 minutes while
  >> cleanup insued.  The Flag/tubes were teh give-a-way item of the night.
    
  >> Next Pirate give-a-way promotion, the Dave Parker/Duracell battery
  >> night, in which all outfielders will be given hardhats and shoulder
  >> pads.
    
  >> Way to go fans, and I mean it!!!
    
    Reason number 47 why Pittsburg doesn't deserve a Major League team:
    No-class fans.
    

    Nah, just that the Bucs were probably the only team with a giveaway
    item night 1, and they played down to the team level.  Like it wouldn't
    have happened elsewhere??
    
    >>Reason number 47 why Pittsburg doesn't deserve a Major League team:
    
    Bite all of us Pirate fans.
    
    JaKe
    

    
  >> Nah, just that the Bucs were probably the only team with a giveaway
  >> item night 1, and they played down to the team level.  Like it wouldn't
  >> have happened elsewhere??
    
     It didn't happen elsewhere. It might have in New York or some other
     place where the fans are just as ill-behaved as Pittsburgers but it
     didn't. 
     
     poor attendance + Poor fan behavior + poor revenues = pull up the 
     Mayflower trucks and haul butt outta there.
    

    
    >> It didn't happen elsewhere. It might have in New York or some other
    >> place where the fans are just as ill-behaved as Pittsburgers but it
    >> didn't. 
     
    Seems to me that the fans in Detroit caused quite a ruckus the other
    night, didn't they, Tommy???
    
    It ain't just in Pittsburgh, it can and does happen anywhere right now.
    
    JaKe
    
    

    the bucs played some more "I don't want it you can have it" today,
    running themselves out of innings(when will they go back and take
    baserunning 101????) and letting an aged Jim Gott again give up the
    winning runs.
    
    Sheesh, 3-8, 1-5 at home.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    JaKe
    

    after seeing the clip on Sportschannel last night, I have to wonder
    if the replacment players aren't still playing.  
    
    
    billl

    The Bucs were a better team when the replacements were there.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    The Bucs just completed one of them homestands that assures the fans
    will be beating down the gates to get in the nexted time they come back
    to Pittsburgh.
    
    In the 6 games they played, they were behind in every game, except for
    one, when they came to bat in their half of the firsted inning. In the
    other game, the Cubs were merciful and waited until the second inning
    to put the Bucs behind them.  The Bucs did, however, get a sorta morale
    booster kinda victory Wednesday night when the game got rained out, 
    giving the Bucs the knowledge that there was no way they could lose that
    game, until it's played as part of a doubleheader in August.
    
    Houston outscored the Bucs in the lasted 3 games of the homestand about
    a zillion to 9.
    
    Pirate pitching, especially the starters, long relievers, and
    closers('cept for Dan Micelli, who has yet to yield a run) stinks. 
    Other than those pitchers, the staff is fine.
    
    The Bucs are suffering from bad_base_running_itis.  The other night,
    the Bucs sent 7 batters up in an inning, all seven reached base, and
    the Bucs failed to score a run.  Trailing 6-0, they had a runner on
    second, one out, and the moron tried to steal third(I knkow, he was
    ORDERED to), he gets thrown out, now there's two outs, batter gets hit,
    he woulda scored had he not been sitting on the bench after getting
    thrown out.
    
    This team just seems to be going thru the motions, like they know
    they're horrible, but are trying to get the season over with, and
    there's only 130 games left for them to play.
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    

>   The Bucs are suffering from bad_base_running_itis.  The other night,
>   the Bucs sent 7 batters up in an inning, all seven reached base, and
>   the Bucs failed to score a run.

Offhand I would have said that is impossible.  Six maybe, but not seven.
What am I overlooking?

Steve

    I wondered the same thing, I didn't hear the inning, I was onsite, but
    they kept alluding to the fact that they sent 7 batters up, and all
    seven got on, but no runs scored.
    
    JaKe
    

  Lots of guys could get sent to the plate if they kept announcing guys then
pinch hitting, but I believe that a maximum of 5 could get on base without
a run scoring.

  Bases loaded - That would be 3 guys on base.

  Bounce to the pitcher, runner thrown out at the plate (4th guy on base)

  Bounce to the pitcher, runner thrown out at the plate (5th guy on base)

  Next play either someone would have to score or the 3rd out would be made
and no more batters would get on base.

  George

    So if I understand you correctly, Billte, Hoak played for Cinci
    prior to the Bucs.  Hmph, I did not know that.  I can still see 
    his face on his 1960 baseball card.  Knowing he was a Jar-Haid
    explains alot about his appearance...stone jaw, deadly glare.
    
    
    billl

    I had him in a cinci uniform circa '55; I was getting outa the card
    business about then.  Once I found out all the info was in who's who I
    didn't need the cards' stats.
    
    You burghers and your precious '60 ws champs, will we ever hear the end
    of that one.  If Smith hadn't cracked that 3 run job Maz would have the
    same exact fame as Hoak and no pebble, no hop, no kubek gasping then no
    Smith and my Yankees would have won another.
    
    I always stayed to true my league... I never knew till much later how
    much I actually liked the Yankees in those days but this current bunch
    I have no feeling for.  I do like the Jays though.

    On the recent 6 game debacle that was called a homestand, the Bucs gave
    up 55 runs, better than 9 per game.
    
    Paul wagner, yesterdays sacrificial lamb of a starting pitcher, now has
    an ERA over 8.80 and is 0-4.
    
    
    Sheesh, it sure is fun watching a team of A and AA, and a couple of AAA
    players trying to masquerade as big leaguers.
    
    JaKe
    

    Too bad the Bravo's don't play the Pirates until after the All-Star
    break.  We could use an easy win or two.  Maybe by then the starters
    will be pitching complete games and we won't give the bullpen a chance
    to suck.
    
    UMDan

    >>You burghers and your precious '60 ws champs, will we ever hear the
    >>end of that one. 
    
    In a word...no.  What do you expect?  Series won in the bottom of the
    ninth on a home run.  That kinda stuff don't happen often.  
    
    Ask the Toronto fans, wherever they may be, if they'll ever forget
    Carter dinger.
    
    As far as Smith cracking the 3 run dinger...he did, and that's what
    made Maz's so special.
    
    I know what you mean about the "other" league.  Growing up in the
    'burgh, I rarely saw the american "boys" league teams play.  That
    explains why having Radditz at a get together means so little to me
    but so much to yunz.
    
    
    billl

 
    My dad tells me that Don Hoak died of a heart attack whilst chasing
    some petty thief down the street one day... he was that kind of guy,
    intense to the end...
    
    glenn
    

>                        -< Marine through and through >-

Semper Fi.    

    Bucs get something they almost never get these days, a win and a solid
    pitching effort.  Denny Neagle pitches 7 scoreless innings and Jim Gott
    and Dan Miceli finish it off for a 2-0 Bucs win. The bucs are now a
    pitiful 5-13.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Bucs won tehir second straight game lasted night.  WILL MIRACLES
    NEVER CEASE???
    
    The Dodgers sent their Japanese pitcher(cain't remember his name) to
    the mound and the guy turned in 7 innings, stuck out 14, and only gave
    up 2 hits.  He left leading 2-0.  then, the Dodger bullpen struck,
    allowing the Bucs to eek out a 3-2 victory.
    
    JaKe
    

    Well, the bucs and John Rigas inked a deal today, signing the agreement
    on the sale of the Pirates to Rigas.  Rigas should assume control of
    the team within 6 weeks, and all that's left now is putting it all in
    writing, and getting approval of the league for the sale.  Approval
    from the league could take up to 6 months, but Rigas is confident it
    cain be a done deal within 3.
    
    JaKe
    

    >>-< The new stadium should be in the works soon. >-
    
    It would certainly be a blessing to see the Bucs in a real baseball 
    stadium instead of that cement donut they play in now.
    
    Unfortunatly, from this fans perspective, I think we'll see the 
    tail lights of their moving van before we see the Bucs in a new
    stadium.
    
    
    billl

    Jake,
    
    If they build a new stadium, would it just be for the Buc's, or would
    the Steelers play there also?
    
    UMDan

    Talk here is that the new stadium, when built, will be a baseball only,
    38-42000 seat venue.
    
    Talk around here is that, although not mentioned in teh written
    agreement, a new stadium was one of John Rigas' conditions in buying
    the Bucs.  Other talk is that the design is already being done and
    ground breaking could be in as little as 1-1/2 - 2 years.
    
    Personally, I hat Three Rivers Stadium, for baseball, and would welcome
    a new place to go and watch teh Bucs and part with a week's pay to see
    one game.
    
    Let's hope that Rigas can infuse the Bucs with a little cash to get
    something other than AA players on the field.
    
    JaKe
    

Glad it's finally happened, and good luck to Mr. Rigas.

JaKe and other Bucco fans, I'm afraid you're going to have to suffer for
a while longer.  This franchise won't generate any significant revenue
until it gets out of the concrete toilet bowl.  Be glad you've got an
owner who'll keep the team there even though it's losing piles, and get
that new stadium built!

Steve

    re .521...
    
    What he said!

    Will a new stadium make all that much difference in attendance?  Didn't
    they have a hard time selling out even when the Bucs were winning?
    
    UMDan 

    I think a new stadium would make a difference here.  I know a lot of
    people who HATE Three Rivers Stadium.  The place is a big concrete
    donut, has inadequate parking, lousy atmosphere, horrible location as
    far as getting there is, it sucks.  I've never liked the place, either.
    
    When they were winnig a few years ago, they set team attendance records
    two years in a row.
    
    JaKe
    

  I went to see a ball game once in Three Rivers back in the late '70s. We got
there and bought tickets at game time and ended up in the nose bleed section
way up back in the upper deck. 

  I had no feeling of being at a baseball game. All I could see were little
"ants" running around on a green mat. I thought, I've had a couple beers, maybe
I fell down and I'm looking at real ants on a carpet but no, that's what the
players look like from way up in the clouds. 

  Right now I have no memory of were I was with respect to the field. Every
other park I've been to I can say I was on the 3rd base line, 1st base line,
left field, what ever, but I felt so detached from the game I'm not sure which
way they were pointed. 

  It was too big and I was too far away from the game. No point in going if
you are going to sit that far away. Even the right field corner in Fenway
Park is close to something, up there was close to nothing.

  George

Three Rivers, Veterans, Riverfront, and Busch are travesties 
to the game.

daryll

    re .526
    
    Can you give me an AMEN!
    
    
    billl

    
    Bucs win 4th straight game, beating the Padres, 8-6(I think).
    
    JaKe
    

    

    The Bucs won yesterday. They ended their 10 game left coast trip
    winning 6 and losing 4.  Denny Neagle pitched strong yesterday, getting
    the complete game and win, his third win of the road trip.
    
    Bucs come home with a 9-14 record, not exactly worth a sh_t, but much
    better than the 3-10 record they went left with.
    
    JaKe
    

    Bucs won yuesterday, snapping the Reds' 9 game winning streak.  Denny
    Neagle won again.  the bucs have won 7 of Neagle's 8 starts.  Neagle is
    the closest thing to a real pitcher this staff has seen yet, and is
    developing into the pitcher they said he would two years ago.
    
    Orlando Merced hit two home runs and drove in 4 runs in the Bucs 5-3
    win lasted night.  It is the firsted time in Merced's career he has hit
    two or more HR's in a game.
    
    Dan Micelli got the save, striking out the side in the ninth.  It was
    Micelli's 8th save(?), one short of Stan Belinda's club record for
    saves by a rookie.
    
    JaKe
    

    

    Correction, Micelli got his 7th save lasted night, and Belinda holds
    the club reocrd fer saves by a rookie with 8.  Micelli should blow that
    away, with the way he's been pitching.
    
    JaKe
    

    The Rockies pulled out their brooms and swept the Bucs this weekend.
    
    Bucs starting pitching sipped.
    
    Jake
    

    Bucs lost again to the Dodgers and Hideo Nomo.  Nomo struck out 16
    lasted night(he struck out 14 a couple weeks ago against the bucs).
    
    Bucs are in a slide and have little hope of respectability this year.
    
    JaKe
    

  What's the story with Jay Bell and Carlos Garcia? Bell was playing in the
all-star game a couple years ago and Garcia seemed to be challenging Delino
DeShields for that same honor but now they can't seem to figure out if they
should hold the bat by the thick part or that part with that little knob. 

  George

    
  >>What's the story with Jay Bell and Carlos Garcia? Bell was playing in the
    
    Well, lasted night, Bell sat on the bench and Garcia started at short. 
    Garcia went 2-3 with 6rbi, 3 on a home run, and three on a bases loaded
    double.
    
    JaKe
    

    It was fireworks night at Three rivers tonight, and the fireworks were
    supplied by both Zambelli fireworks Co. and the San Dego Padres. the
    Padres batted around in both the 2nd(5 runs) and 3rd(6 runs) innings,
    this after the Bucs had taken a 3-0 first inning lead, something they
    don't normally do.  the Eventual final was 12-4, Padres.  Bucs pitching
    keeps getting worse, and worse, and worse, and worse......
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
    Want Ken Ryan?

    One of my sisters took Dad to TRS to see that dibacle yesterday.
    One helluva Father's Day present.
    
    
    billl

    NEWSFLASH!!!!!!!!!!
    
    The Bucs still SUCK!!!!
    
    They blew a 3-0 firsted inning lead lasted night, losing to the Gnats,
    6-5, as the gnats scored 3 runs in the final 2 innings to win.
    
    The Bucs pitching continues to blow, er blow leads, that coupled with
    teh Bucs having left 635,143,989,104 runners on base this season alone,
    coupled wif them batting something like .105 with runners in scoring
    position, coupled with shakey defense, coupled with bad starting
    pitching(cept fer Denny Neagle), poor middle relief, and shaky closers,
    means the team just might not get a playoff position, unless they
    revamp the playoffs to look like the NBA, where a team has to go down
    in a plane crash to miss the playoffs.
    
    Jake
    

>    NEWSFLASH!!!
    
    
>    Steelers moving to Los Angeles.


Wow, that's something!  But I would think it belongs in the Steeler note!

JaKe, from the way you've been talking, I expected the Pirates to be 9-50
or something.  They're not *that* bad.  They've got some players worth
watching.

A true fan is patient...

    Groaner, the Clevescum Skidmarks will be in LA long before the STEELERS
    ever move there.
    
    re-.1
    
    Patience in terms of waiting another two years before the team has any
    chance at all of thinking of getting a whif of a playoff spot??
    
    JaKe
    

>    Patience in terms of waiting another two years before the team has any
>    chance at all of thinking of getting a whif of a playoff spot??

Yes.

It's very '90's to demand instant gratification.  Look at Cubs fans - all
they've had in recent memory is the 1984 team, starring Leon Durham as the
precursor to Bill Buckner.  But they're still out there, enjoying the game
for what it is.  Those are real fans.

This is not to say that inept ownership should be completely forgiven regardless
of the final product.  The time to get pi$$ed off is when the solid young
players like Garcia, et al have been around for a couple of years, and the 
Bucs don't ante up the money to keep them.

Roland

    
>>This is not to say that inept ownership should be completely forgiven regardless
>>of the final product.  The time to get pi$$ed off is when the solid young
>>players like Garcia, et al have been around for a couple of years, and the 
>>Bucs don't ante up the money to keep them.
    
    First, I din't say I was not following the Bucs, just that they suck.
    
    Secondly, I've seen the bucs let good to very good ballplayers(Bonilla,
    Bonds, etc) go for greener pastures.  the present ownership has not
    invested any money in building a winner, they will not infuse the team
    with the kind of money needed to bring a decent free agent to town.  We
    get guys like Jim Gott who's better days are ancient history, and they
    pay him much much more than he's worth.  then there's the young
    pitching staff.  finally, Denny Neagle is showing some promise.  On the
    other side of the coin, Paul Wagner couldn't outpitch a slow pitching
    machine, he looks like, unless they send him down, he could end up
    losing 20 games.  Jon Lieber has already departed fer the minors.  Rick
    white is spotty at best.  dan Micelli is hot and cold, but seems ready
    to become a good closer.  Cain't remember the other starters name as of
    this writing, but nobody, IMHO, seems to show too  much promise.  One
    of the problems with the Bucs staff is first inning runs.  Too freakin'
    many firsted inning runs are given up.  At home, they have trailed
    before coming to bat in the first inning over half of the games they've
    played here.  You can't start in the hole that many times and expect to
    come out a winner with the bats the Bucs are sending out there.
    
    IMHO, they suck right now and will for the rest ofthe year.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    Even considering his performance this year, Jon Lieber looks
    like he'll be a good one to me...
    
    Joe

    that remains to be seen, but I just don't know if the guy has the haid
    fer the game.
    
    But then again, we in Pittsburgh considered Tim Wakefield a half-season
    wonder and look what he's been doing.
    
    who woulda known that pitching on 2 or three days rest was what the
    doctor ordered fer him.
    
    JaKe
    

    
>    who woulda known that pitching on 2 or three days rest was what the
>    doctor ordered fer him.
    
    Jim Bouton?

    Okay, so I diss the Bucs pitching, cept fer Denny Neagle, and they toss
    two shutouts this weekend.
    
    In the firsted one, denny Neagle pitched a beaut, giving up only two
    hits, blanking the Expos.  Neagle, in doing so, became the NL's firsted
    8 game winner this season, this pitching for the pitiful Bucs.
    
    In the second one, Esteban Loiza, Dan Micelli, and someone in the
    middle(gawd I miss my memory) combined to blank the Expos, 1-0.
    
    JaKe
    

    Am I the only one who thinks that Jim Gott's picture should be found in
    the dictionary beside the words "Washed Up"????  He single handedly
    almost blew the Bucs 7-3 lead lasted night, the Bucs eventually winning
    8-6.
    
    Kevin Young, who the night before had tied the NL record for assists
    with 11, at third base, provided the first fo the Bucs scoring with a 2
    run homer in the second, his first HR of the season, and his first two
    RBI of the season.  His bat has been light, but he's been playing
    pretty good defense since Jeff King went on the DL with the wrist
    injury.
    
    Carlos Garcia extended his hitting streak to 20 games with a single in
    the second and a homer later in the game.  Garcia has batted .385 over
    the hitting streak.
    
    JaKe
    

	JaKe, keep on dissin' em!  Your reverse KOD is workin' great!


	billl

>
>	JaKe, keep on dissin' em!  Your reverse KOD is workin' great!
>

Jake-io disses Pirates, Pirate win World Series....Film in November....

    Bucs won again lasted night, 6-5 over the Cubs.  Denny Neagle won his
    9th game, running his record to 9-3. 
    
    Neagle helped his self greatly during the Bucs 5 run 6th inning,
    hitting a grand slam.
    
    Neagle should get a spot among the pitchers on the all/some/no star
    team.
    
    JaKe
    

    BTW, Carlos Garcia extended his hitting streak to 21 games lasted
    night.
    
    JaKe
    

    Go BUCS!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

This would make JaKe proud.

Like the Pirates don't have enough problems, what with few fans and no 
prospective buyer. Now the mascot, Tim Beggy, has been busted for being 
buck nekkid, doing the dirty deed with a similarly unclad female. This 
all supposedly happened around 3 in the am.

Beggy's been charged with lewdness and has been suspended by the powers 
that be who obviously failed to see the humor.

TTom

>Like the Pirates don't have enough problems, what with few fans and no 
>prospective buyer. Now the mascot, Tim Beggy, has been busted for being 
>buck nekkid, doing the dirty deed with a similarly unclad female. This 
>all supposedly happened around 3 in the am.

I fail to see the problem as long as they're consenting adults.  I suppose
the key is *where* this happened...

>I fail to see the problem as long as they're consenting adults.  I suppose
>the key is *where* this happened...

I failed to mention that it was in a motel pool. 

But of course, the 'consenting adults' thing is a whole 'nother can o'
worms. Personally, I share your libertarian outlook. However, we are in
the stark minority when it comes to butting into private lives.

TTom

>I failed to mention that it was in a motel pool. 

Ah, now I see why it drew police attention.

>But of course, the 'consenting adults' thing is a whole 'nother can o'
>worms. Personally, I share your libertarian outlook.

I'm not *that* libertarian... :-)  What if a small tyke staying with his
parents in a poolside room gets up for a drink of water, looks out the
window, and sees a couple doin' the nasty?

It would be even more confusing if one of the pair were wearing a pirate
outfit...

Roland

  There's another way to look at this....

  Maybe if more Pirates continue this behavior, more people will become
  interested and buy tickets and thus save the franchise.

	Keith

The whole thing was probably just a big publicity stunt designed to take off on
the notoriety of Hugh Grant.

The Pirates organization figures that if they "sacrifice" their mascot, then
they can have a big rally for contributions to the what's-his-name defense fund
and stuff like that.


'Saw

They shouda just done it in the outfield during a game. With Pittsburg's
attendance figures, no one woulda caught them!

zamboni

"Ownership committee recommends OK of Pirates sale"

Major League Baseball's Ownership Committee on Wednesday 
recommended approval of the proposed sale of the Pittsburgh 
Pirates to a group headed by California newspaper heir 
Kevin McClatchy.

I won't say that I'm totally suprised.  That doesn't mean if
the Pirates move I won't be terribly upset.  

Such has been the trend of professional sports, er I mean
professional entertainers.  If this is what the owner NEEDS
to make a profit, so be it.  But that doesn't mean I'm gonna
like it.


billl

    <yawn>

McClatchey has said any number of times that he intends to keep the
Pirates in Pittsburgh, where they belong, and that his first priority
will be the building of a state-of-the-art, baseball only stadium that
will not necessarily be entirely financed by public funds.

Hey, who knows, maybe he means it.

Steve

	That would be great, a new Forbes Field.  That was one 
	fine baseball stadium.  3RS sucks as a baseball stadium.
	Kinda like watching a checker match in the Fleet Center.


	billl

    .571
    
    Nah...then I'd miss your fascinating and original notes.
    
    
    CHARLEY

> McClatchey has said any number of times that he intends to keep the
> Pirates in Pittsburgh, where they belong, and that his first priority
> will be the building of a state-of-the-art, baseball only stadium that
> will not necessarily be entirely financed by public funds.
    
    That's what it'll take to save the Pirates, in the long run.  And
    by comparison with monuments of excess like the FleeceCenter or the 
    mythical Megaplex, an 81-dates-a-year open-air baseball park is a
    reasonable community investment, at reasonable cost ($200M-$300M), 
    imo.
    
    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to see baseball return to 
    Oakland Pgh though.  It's tight in there with tough parking.  All
    I know is if Forbes Field had still been around when I lived and
    went to school in Oakland, Forbes alone would have caused me to 
    flunk right out (not that there weren't enough distractions).  
    Having to walk past what is left of it on what is now Roberto 
    Clemente Dr on the way to class was bad enough ("over the spot 
    marked by this plaque did fly Bill Mazeroski's...").  At least
    they saved some of the brick wall.
    
    glenn
    

I remember that home run as if it was yesterday.  I also remember the ball
that jumped up and ate Tony Kubek.

I suppose being the 7th game it was on a weekend, because I can't otherwise
imagine why I wasn't in school, which my parents considered a higher
priority than baseball, for reasons known only to them.

Steve

>imagine why I wasn't in school, which my parents considered a higher
>priority than baseball, for reasons known only to them.
>
>Steve

Your folks too, huh?

Actually, it was a Thursday.  Could you have been home sick?

I really don't remember why I was home.  Maybe it was the high holidays.
Or maybe my folks yielded a bit because it was the seventh game.

I did get to see some games that the gentile kids had to miss, because
we always stayed home for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.  Of course, we
had to go to services for the latter, because Sandy Koufax messed things
up by being such a ^%$#^% role model.

Steve

    I believe the game started about 2pm and depending on when school got
    out (2:20 for me I must have ran home - game got going in 7th it almost
    was another Yankee blowout) you had time for the ending innings which 
    went slow.
    
    The big blow was Hal Smith's homer which I always recalled tieing it at
    8 but Glenn informs me put them ahead 9-8.  Mantle diving back to first
    to avoid the game ending double play showed me that a superstar could
    also play the game.
    
    Many of us redsox fans, contrary to myth, rooted for the damn yankees
    in the world series.  Who would have thought that 11 years would pass
    without them in the world series (65-75).

Good try, Bill, but no sale.  The game would have been over before
I got out of school at about 3:00.

This is really going to bother me.

Steve

Oct 13th is a bit late for Yom Kippur, no?

The game ended at approximately 4:38pm EDT.  I have a painting of it on last
year's calendar and that's the time on the clock on the scoreboard in left
at Forbes field.

So, we're talking 1:38 on the Left Coast.

I'm thinking Steve that you were sick that day.  You probably had one of them
fevers, so easily concocted by placing the thermometer on a bare light bulb,
knowing that it was the 7th game of the world series.


'Saw

	Yep, I remember the game ending shortly before
	our normal dinnertime.  Needless to say, dinner
	was a bit late that day.


	billl

Well, 'Saw, you might be right, but I'll never confess.

Steve

>    The big blow was Hal Smith's homer which I always recalled tieing it at
>    8 but Glenn informs me put them ahead 9-8.
    
    Nope, 9-7.  Yanks got two in the top of the ninth.  Then it was ball 
    one from Ralph Terry (not Art Ditmar per Chuck Thompson's original
    radio call) before The Blast, which was exactly that, a shot that 
    sailed way over Yogi Berra in LF over the point on the brick wall that 
    read 410 (pretty sure about 410, maybe 415).  Maz' HR was no cheap
    one, a HR that probably went 430, about as far as Maz could hit a 
    ball.
    
    On an unrelated note, about four days ago I saw a license plate in
    Nashua that read MAZ, likely for unrelated reasons, but which to 
    me could have only one meaning (best sports license plate I've ever 
    seen was spotted in Nashua, 1KAWAY, circa 1986).
    
    glenn
    

Steve, 

I'll never tell.  I was home, and would have been watching, but I was
a little over two, and didn't start watching baseball for another four years.

Glenn


>    Nope, 9-7.  Yanks got two in the top of the ninth.  Then it was ball 
>    one from Ralph Terry (not Art Ditmar per Chuck Thompson's original
>    radio call) before The Blast, which was exactly that, a shot that 
>    sailed way over Yogi Berra in LF over the point on the brick wall that 
>    read 410 (pretty sure about 410, maybe 415).  Maz' HR was no cheap
>    one, a HR that probably went 430, about as far as Maz could hit a 
>    ball.

IF the painting on my calendar is accurate, and that particular artist
strives for accuracy, Berra is a little to the right of the sign which
read 406.  The sign in deep center said 457 (possibly 437, but I think not).

The HR probably went out at around 415, from where Berra is positioned...



>    On an unrelated note, about four days ago I saw a license plate in
>    Nashua that read MAZ, likely for unrelated reasons, but which to 
>    me could have only one meaning (best sports license plate I've ever 
>    seen was spotted in Nashua, 1KAWAY, circa 1986).
    
That's a great plate.  

I'd seen Pudge's NH plate -- PUDGE, but that's not as cool as 1KAWAY


'Saw    

    
> I'd seen Pudge's NH plate -- PUDGE, but that's not as cool as 1KAWAY
    
    Mine's FNWYPK, which to the average motorist might be undecipherable,
    but occasionally causes an accident... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    Kevin McCautchley (sp?) was approved by MLB to buy the Pirates.  One of
    the catches in the deal is that a new stadium must be started/built
    within 5 years or he can move the team.  I dont beleive there is any
    attendence clauses in the contract.
    
    The new stadium will probably be built when River boat gambling is
    approved.

>    The new stadium will probably be built when River boat 
>    gambling is approved.

	After sampling this type of entertainment in Naw Leans last
	summer I'd say the city of Pittsburgh would be crazy _not_ to 
	jump on this.

	Then again they've done some stupid things before.



	billl

>	After sampling this type of entertainment in Naw Leans last
>	summer I'd say the city of Pittsburgh would be crazy _not_ to 
>	jump on this.
>
>	Then again they've done some stupid things before.


Sounds like fun.