Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    Does the Big 10 still have 4 teams in the top 10?
    

    What, no B10 Bigots crowing about lasted nights IU @ Michigan
    scintillating affair?  Awesome game.  Michigan had almost the identical
    scenario as their unlikely 'W' over Carolina in the Rainbow Classic. 
    Down by 1 with 12 seconds left with the ball.  This time though they
    weren't quite so lucky.  Had_to_luv Webber gettin' *rejected* on his
    would-be buzzer beater!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    > Down by 1 with 12 seconds left with the ball.  This time though they
    > weren't quite so lucky.  Had_to_luv Webber gettin' *rejected* on his
    > would-be buzzer beater!
    
    Luck?!  Indiana didn't allow Michigan to get off one final shot.  That
    was a great defensive play by Henderson, not a random outcome.  On the 
    other hand, NC couldn't control the boards.  A matter of discipline, 
    probably coaching...
    
    glenn
    

    > Indiana didn't allow Michigan to get off one final shot.
    
    What game were you watching?  Michigan got off a fairly open 3-pointer
    which clanged short.  Webber got the rebound but was denied at the end
    by a great play by Henderson.
    
    The similarities with the Carolina game are interesting.  Against UNC the
    shot from the corner was very well defended.  Ball had no chance of
    going in.  The box on Rose could've been better, but the kid made an
    incredible tip.  IU allowed a more open initial shot but, as is the
    case with long field goal attempts, good rebounding position doesn't
    always help cause the shots tend to bounce far from the basket.
    
    Credit Michigan in both instances for getting the shot up quick,
    allowing time for the offensive rebound.  Worked once, failed once.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    After the ref called the IU foul for moving away from the paint after
    he gave the ball away, I'm pretty sure there was ~14 seconds left in
    the game, Michigan gets possession and is down by 1.
    
    At that moment, I figured IU was toast.
    
    so much for figuring....
    
    I remain,
    <insert something here>
    Kev
    

    
    >> Indiana didn't allow Michigan to get off one final shot.
    
    > What game were you watching?  Michigan got off a fairly open 3-pointer
    > which clanged short.  Webber got the rebound but was denied at the end
    > by a great play by Henderson.
    
    If it wasn't clear from the context, what I meant was "Indiana didn't 
    allow Michigan to get off *the* one final shot", i.e. the one off the
    boards that Carolina allowed.  Yes, the similarities were there, except
    that one team made the big play off the boards and the other one didn't.
    No big deal, but I'm sure that both Indiana and Michigan would object
    to your distinction between the two plays as "luck".
    
    glenn
    

    Gutsy call by the ref, but it was right.
    
    Too busy to really get in here today.  Didn't see a lot of the game,
    but it looked like a good one.  Saw maybe the last 5-6 minutes.
    

Another example of why Bob>Dean.   Deans Greatest Recruiting Class of
All Time choked it away vs. the Wolverines, while Bob's well coached
team won by one point.   

JD

    
    re: the call
    
    	Good call but another example of what was the ref supposed to 
    do?  If the ref hadn't of called it, then the Michigan coach would
    have went off.  This is also another clear example of a stupid play
    by a player while the ball is dead which leaves the official with
    no other recourse.  Why didn't the guy move before the ref gave the
    shooter the ball?
    
    	Secondly, very poor coverage by ESPN on that play.  No replays at
    all since I bet they didn't have the tape machines rolling before the
    foulshot.  Usually, we see the play 25 times to 'see' if the ref 
    screwed up, but this time, we didn't see a thing, then worse off, the
    mouth doesn't have a clue as to what is going on!  I love it!  I knew
    what it was right from get-go when the ref took a shot away.  Geez,
    why don't they hire an ex-ref, or better yet, ME, to do some whispering
    in these announcers ears when the ref makes a call and they don't
    understand it?
    
    
    bill..g.
    

    re .9
    
 >> Secondly, very poor coverage by ESPN on that play.  No replays at
 >> all since I bet they didn't have the tape machines rolling before the
 >> foulshot. 

    I agree. It was really irking the hell out of me that they didn't run 
    a single replay of a critical and potentially controversial call like
    that. The announcers were asleep on it, too. They didn't know until
    after the ref told the scorer what the call was. The announcer who said
    that it was wrong for the ref to influence the outcome of the game
    with a techincality was dead wrong, IMO. It wasn't a judgement call;
    it was a flat out rules violation. You learn in Biddy League not to 
    move when the foul shooter has the ball. I'm sure Bobby Knight has
    gone over the rule in question with the perpetrator.
    

Someone clue me in what this call was??

The Crazy Met

    
   >> Someone clue me in what this call was??
    
      Picture if you will, Met. Time is winding down, Indiana has a 1 point
      lead so Michigan fouls a Hoosier with 14 seconds on the clock. Michi-
      gan takes a time out to ice the shooter. After the time out the ref
      hands the ball to the foul shooter and in the corner of the screen
      you can see an Indiana player commit a lane violation by leaving his
      spot while the shooter has the ball. The ball goes over to Michigan,
      who lucky for the lane violator, fails to score. The announcers on
      ESPN were clueless as to what the violation was when it occurred and
      coming at such a crucial time you'd figure you'd get at least 37 re-
      plays of the violation, but nope not a one.
     
    

    
    Yabbut if anybody stayed around after the game to see the interview
    they had wwith Bobby Knight they would have found out that Bob was
    the cause of the violation.  Knight said that he had told the player to
    move to another spot for defensive positioning.
    
    I heard him say, "I am responsible" for that call.
    
    hth,
    
    I remain,
    hoping bill_g gets that job!
    Kev
    

>    Yabbut if anybody stayed around after the game to see the interview
>    they had wwith Bobby Knight they would have found out that Bob was
>    the cause of the violation.  Knight said that he had told the player to
>    move to another spot for defensive positioning.
>    
>    I heard him say, "I am responsible" for that call.


     That's right.  Bob has said that he was uncomfortable with only one
     player back on defense and he told the offender to get back on defense.
     He admitted he was responsible for this bonehead play.

    He didn't say that exactly, but close enough.  He also blamed the ref
    for handing the ball to Nover without checking that everyone was set.
    He did say he told Chaeney to go back so it was his fault.
    
    I was on the phone at the time and taped the last 30 seconds or so.
    You could see it in the corner, but there probably wasn't a real good
    shot of it.  

> I was on the phone at the time and taped the last 30 seconds or so.

I am soooooo disappointed that you weren't doing both at the same time :-)

The Crazy Met

    I got off the phone long enough to do that... If the phone cord had
    reached far enough, I would have been in the same spot you were.  

Do Vitale and announcers in general watch the game that it going on on the floor 
or are they looking at tv screens courtside?

just curious,

  Metz

    
    I vote that they look at the monitors so they can tell the home viewers
    what the home viewers are looking at.  Besides, from floor level, do
    you really think they're skeeled enough to follow the offensive and
    defensive sets and all that?
    
    I don't.
    
    Anybody got an opion(tm?) on the SI blurb of Jimmy Valvano?  When I
    first saw him on tee vee a few months ago, he looked, imho, like a
    walking corpse.  Today, he looks a lot better.  Wonder how much weight
    he's put back?
    
    I remain,
    wondering if'n we should start a announcers note?
    Kev
    

    I think they watch it live until they're prompted by producers to watch
    stats or replay...

    I think they watch it from Joe's Sports Bar while the networks project
    their holograms at courtside and for the viewing audience.

    
    
    	Sorry for the late reply, but I was out sick Thrusday and Friday.
    
    	Back to the IU/Michigan game and the call.  I didn't see the inter-
    view with Knight, but now knowing that, I would call it pretty
    boneheaded.  There was a TO and Knight should have set up his defense
    properly before they broke.  I know he took the blame, but he also
    said from what was reported in here that the ref should have waited
    to give his player the ball.  
    
    	Now, that is pure B.S.  Any ref worth his salt, and to make it to
    Div. I, you simply don't do that stuff...ever!  Even at the HS level,
    we come into the lane and announce the number of shots, the ref is
    given the ball, looks at the lane for any hanging feet or any movement,
    looks at the table (a coach could be sending a sub into the game and
    it is important to see that before the shot is taken...hey, we want
    to be fair) and THEN give the kid the ball to shoot.  Now, granted that
    only takes a couple of seconds, but nevertheless, it still happens.
    
    	My cut is that Knight blew an assignment in the TO huddle and when
    he was the Michigan lineup, he was uncomfortable.  He then instructed
    his player to move and probably hadn't realized that the ref had
    already given the ball to the shooter.  Hey, if I'm the administering
    ref, and I don't see any movement from the guys along the lane, I give
    the shooter the ball.  Knight simply overcoached a little there and
    he was caught and almost blew the game.  
    
    	Now, as to the comment by the announcers that it was a picky call
    and you don't call that, B.S.  What if you were the Michigan coach and
    you saw what happend (a clear cut violation, again here with a dead
    ball and the clock stopped).  What would you do?  Shoot, what if it
    were Knight on the other end?  He'd be ripped just like any of us 
    would be.  So, the ref was left with no out.  He had to call it.  I
    was disappointed at the non-reply and I continue to be disappointed
    at the analysts and announcers lack of rule understanding.  Geez, they
    spend gazillions of bucks to get this coach to analyze and then on
    many key situations or plays, they give out the wrong rule or
    information.  They need someone in the studio (of course me) or in
    the truck that can explain these situations better.
    
    And then all of us that watch these incorrect interpretations then
    go out and repeat the same play in our adult leagues and wonder why
    it's called differently or not at all while we turn to a teammate or
    the ref and say, "but I saw it on T.V.!!"
    
    bill..g.
    

    Sorry to hear the sad news out of Iowa City last night that Chris
    Street was killed in an auto accident.  From what I observed watching
    him, he was a lot of Hawkeyes heart and soul on the basketball court.
    Iowa has postponed tonight's game vs. NW and may do the same with Penn
    State this Saturday.
    
    
    Spud

    Aside from the tragic implications, this crushes the Hawks prospects.
    A lot of points, rebounds, and some great goofy inbounds defense came
    from Street.  Only a junior, I felt he was a lock to at least be a 12th
    man white stiff in the NBA after college.  This sucks. 
    
    M

    Michigan vs. Illinois in Champaign later in the season for the #2
    seed in the B10!  No, really, the Illini will lose at Minnesota, but
    they definitely replace Purdue in the Top 25 this week. The team is
    really starting to gel as Henson continues a stellar job of getting
    his team to improve from game to game.  +2 already (Road Wins - Home
    Losses in B10) with at PSU coming soon.  BIG game vs. Iowa next week.
    
    Murph
    

    Whoa Nellie!  The Illini players scored the last 10 points in the UI-UI
    game lasted night. Problem was, at 75-75, Deon Thomas knocked the
    rebound of an Acie Earl brick INTO the Hawkeye basket to make it 77-75
    Iowa with 1.5 secs remaining.  No Problem.... we have Latka Gravas on 
    our side.  Kaufmann hits the flying 3 pointer with .1 remaining to 
    drop the Chokeyes.  With 1:54 left, Iowa led 74-68, and only put in one
    more point of their own. Three lock wins at home in a row coming
    vs. NW, MSU, and Pittsburgh before the big trip to Bloomington.  If 
    somebody can drop the Loosiers before then, the game will be for
    firsted (!!) place.  But I'll settle for keeping up with the
    Wolverweenies. 
    
    Looking for a ranking.  Tournament a lock now. Time to get a seed
    set up!
    
    Murph
    

    
    And in other news, Penn State had a monumental upset and for all
    intents their season stolen away last night in a double-OT nailbiter
    against #1 Indiana at State College.  This is the team that was crushed
    by 50 points in their game with the Hoosiers at Bloomington.
    
    Dismayed onlookers were caught unaware of an obscure Big Ten rule
    defining proper body positioning for a player breaking away for a
    game-clinching lay-up only to be caught and held by a member of a 
    highly-ranked Bob Knight-coached team on the verge of humiliating 
    defeat.  Failure to establish this position in such a way as to avoid
    all contact with the defender racing in from behind results in an 
    *offensive* foul call with possession going the other way.
    
    Could the officiating bias against the also-rans of college basketball
    be any more blatant?
    
    glenn
         

    True glenn.  How ALL THREE REF'S could miss the grab is beyond me, but
    even assuming they didn't see we're talking about a no-call here.  Even
    with his uniform squarely in the hands of Graham his supposed "push
    off" was non-existent.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    
    	Didn't see the game, so I missed the play, but I heard it was
    a lu-lu.
    
    Just for info guys, it is the responsibility of the offensive player
    to avoid the defensive player, not the other way around.  Not that
    this has/had anything to do with the play, but I thought I'd just
    remind you all of this little tidbit.
    
    bill..g.
    

    re: .-1
    
    > it is the responsibility of the offensive player to avoid the
    > defensive player ...
    
    Suppose it's a logical progression to critique a play on hearsay, given
    last weeks armchair criticism of ACC officials.
    
    Haw!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

.30 didn't sound like it was critiquing the play on hearsay.  He was
simply stating a fact for info.


Try again Chris, you'll have to do better than that.......


'Saw

    
    re: Crisp
    
    	Crisp, if you see as well as you read, then I can understand why
    you love NC so much.  Please go back and re-read .30 again, if you can.
    And after that, please show me where I attempted to critique the play
    in question.
    
    	Ref, baiting?  You're simply bush league in that department.  I've
    heard more from mothers of small children stricken with polio then I'll
    ever hear from you!
    
    	Haw!!
    
    

    No decent, self-respecting IU fan would dare show their face in topic
    20 today.  What a total embarrassment.  Seems as though IU had the same
    problem last year.  First meeting, squash a team by 48 points, second,
    barely squeak by.
    
    That truly was a *horrific* call.
    
    Wonder if the self-serving, egotistical Mr. Knight showed up for the
    post-game press conference?  Naw, probably had a hunting trip he had to
    catch!!!  What a joke.
    
    Now fellow SPORTSTERS, please tell, is IU the number one team in the
    country?
    
    GO BIG BLUE,
    
    WILDCAT

    GOts a good Gene COllier column on why the calls were made the way they
    were lasted night.  I'll enter it 2nite given the chance.
    
    JaKe
    

Hi, Bob,

	One self-respecting IU fan here.

	Definitely a bad non-call (not a bad call) in the Penn State game.  
The hold by Reynolds was not only blatant, he did it **TWICE**.  The problem,
however, wasn't with Sam Lickliter's call on the PSU player.  He called a push,
which I think was legitimate, and that was the only thing he could see from 
his position under the PSU basket (a replay showed that pretty clearly).  The
REAL problem was that the two trail officials, for whatever reason, didn't 
make the call.  My guess (purely a guess) is that the one out of bounds was 
blocked by the half-dozen players between him and the play, and the other 
was watching those same players and didn't see the play at all.  Ridiculously
bad, in my estimation.

	Is Indiana #1?  By definition, yes.  Are they the best team in the 
country?  I didn't think so before last night, and I don't think so after 
last night.

tom    

    Tom,
    
    I had a strong hunch the notes entered today would elicit a response!
    
    Time for me to be incognito until after the Arkansas game tonight!
    
     - Bob
    
    P.S. - IU certainly played well in OT when the chips were down.  Cheney
    is defintely giving Mashburn a run for his money for Player of The Year
    honors.  I would probably give Cheney the slight edge at this point.

    Now we know where Po Mr T went... must have gone to the Clemson School
    of Refs...
    

    Somehow, Walt, methinks that the Clemson refs just became the Indiana
    refs. They been let off the hook.
    
    MikeL
    

    I only saw the replay once, but it seemed pretty obvious.  You know
    it's funny, in the Gopher game at IU a couple of weeks ago there was a
    five second call on Arriel McDonald with about 15 seconds left and the
    Gophs down one with a chance to win it.  Even FatBob himself admitted
    after that game that the call hadn't been made all game and he
    questioned why they did it then.
    
    As for the ref who blew the call Tuesday night, he was to work last
    night's Gopher-Purdue game, but Falk relieved him of his duties (for
    last night) and Teddy Valentine took his place.
    
    Re:  .34
    
    Last year IU blew out the Gophers by 46 at Indiana.  Later in the
    season they LOST at Williams arena by nine, I believe.
    
    
    Spud

    
    
    	Sae in the paper today that the supervisor of Big Ten officials
    has issued an apology to Penn St. saying that the officials blew the
    call.
    
    
    	I wonder sometimes why all the bad or non-calls always happen at
    the end of the game?  I wonder why we don't see such a furor over calls
    that are missed in the first half?  But true to form in being a ref,
    in a game like the IU/Penn St. one, you could have worked a flawless
    game up until then and then one call, one call screws up the whole 
    game.  No one will remember the other 39 minutes of great work.  It's
    that last 30 seconds that determines if you're a good official or not
    and somehow that just isn't fair.  But, that's life.
    
    	I guess the saying is true about ref's that they are the only 
    people expected to be perfect on their first night and then get better
    with each game.
    
    bill..g.
    

    
    > I wonder sometimes why all the bad or non-calls always happen at
    > the end of the game?  I wonder why we don't see such a furor over calls
    > that are missed in the first half? 
    
    Beyond the fact that sports have a large element of emotion and as with
    anything else that happens in a game the timing of calls *does*
    matter, I don't think it would be a big deal if you believed that wrong
    calls come totally at random and not due to a particular game situation.  
    It's my observation that in basketball, where the referee is bigger part 
    of the game than in baseball or football, subconscious biases exist
    in favor of the home team (this one is well-documented), individual 
    teams with strong reputations, and the team that happens to be trailing 
    the game at the time (a make-up factor).  It's human nature but it's 
    unfortunate, and it's something that referees probably have to 
    constantly work against and ingrain into themselves...   
    
    glenn
    

    Boo hoo!  The poor referees have it *so* rough.  Waaaaaaaa!!!!
    
    Bah.  If ya cain't hack the heat, git off the hardwood.  And who says
    these guys did great work for the first 39 minutes?  I saw the majority
    of the game and the only metric observed that could imply a great
    night's work was one used by IU fans:  Bob was quiet.
    
    Personally I feel the ref who blew it (literally) is getting too much
    of the blame.  The other two (2) guys shoulda overruled, but if'n ya
    don't think the fact that BobKnight was on-hand didn't enter into their
    minds when it came time to belly-up for a tough call, wail, you don't
    understand human nature.
    
    As to end-of-game situations, everything gets magnified.  The player
    who makes his first 10 but misses the buzzer-beater is gonna be a goat. 
    Same thing with officials.  The good ones will answer the bell; the bad
    ones will shrink.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    	So Glenn, does .43 mean that you're starting to suscribe to
    my theory that the MilitaryIndustrialComplex controls all sports? 
    
    				/Don

    
    > So Glenn, does .43 mean that you're starting to suscribe to
    > my theory that the MilitaryIndustrialComplex controls all sports? 
    
    Getting there, /Don.  Particularly with basketball, which more than 
    other sports appears to be influenced by the Vegas/casino-wiseguy/
    show-biz scene, even though no one (especially kids) seems to mind...
    
    glenn
    
                                                                     

    Re:  .42  bill 
    
    My point in the Gopher-IU game was that if they called (or didn't call)
    an infraction for 39:45, why change the way they do the last :15?
    
    And while I'm still upset about that game (as well as Gov. Arne
    Carlson) the refs let a blatent hacking go on Voshon Lenard with about
    four seconds to go and the Gophs still only down 2.  Course the game
    wasn't on national TV, so no one notices.
    
    
    Spud

    
    re: .43
    
>    Beyond the fact that sports have a large element of emotion and as with
    anything else that happens in a game the timing of calls *does*
    matter, I don't think it would be a big deal if you believed that wrong
    calls come totally at random and not due to a particular game situation.  
    It's my observation that in basketball, where the referee is bigger part 
    of the game than in baseball or football, subconscious biases exist
    in favor of the home team (this one is well-documented), individual 
    teams with strong reputations, and the team that happens to be trailing 
    the game at the time (a make-up factor).  It's human nature but it's 
    unfortunate, and it's something that referees probably have to 
>    constantly work against and ingrain into themselves...   
    
    Glen, I can say that of the guys I know working in or near the Div. 
    I level, nothing could be further from the truth.
    
    I know of no subconscious bias, and I know of no documentation that
    states the home team has a distinct advantage.  Most of the folks I
    know or have heard of all disdain coaches but they leave it at the
    door.  And I should say that in the 7+ years that I have worked as
    an official, I have yet to see or hear a partner of mine give it to
    a player or coach simply because they don't like them.  Believe me,
    we wouldn't have much of a game if I called the game by like or
    dislike.  Frankly, it would be to easy to job a team.  But I also
    happen to work with a decent bunch of guys that above jobing someone.
    
    bill..g.
    

    
    
    re: Crisp
    
>    Boo hoo!  The poor referees have it *so* rough.  Waaaaaaaa!!!!
    
    	Shed no tears, but we do have it rough.  Let's see, what do you
    do?  Ahh, sit there like a couch potato, drink beer, eat peanuts, and
    read Dean's diary.  Big deal.  Not many people I know would work 3
    hours or more a night to be yelled at, spit upon, have water thrown 
    in your face, have to be escorted out of the building, have bottles
    and cans thrown at you, all for the mega sum of 20-30 bucs!  Please
    tell ME more about how tough YOU have it.  I don't referee because
    of the money, I do it because I like it and want to give the game
    something back.  And not many guys I know who are in this business
    do it for the money.  
    
>    Bah.  If ya cain't hack the heat, git off the hardwood.  And who says
    these guys did great work for the first 39 minutes?  I saw the majority
    of the game and the only metric observed that could imply a great
>    night's work was one used by IU fans:  Bob was quiet.
    
    	Here again you are reading into what I didn't say.  Never said that
    they did a perfect game for 39 minutes but did say that they might
    have.  And besides, just because YOU watched it, don't mean squat.
    You're just one of many untrained eyes that think they see what really
    isn't, all in the name of objectivity.
    
    	But until you take the test and put on the shirt, no ones comments
    will be worth anything to me.  It's like the fans that tell me I should
    read the rulebook when in fact, I do HAVE to read it and I wonder just
    how many have even SEEN a rulebook, let alone reading one.  90% of all
    fans don't even know what constitutes a backcourt or travelling
    violation let alone some of the tougher calls like blocking and
    charging. 
    
>    Personally I feel the ref who blew it (literally) is getting too much
    of the blame.  The other two (2) guys shoulda overruled, but if'n ya
    don't think the fact that BobKnight was on-hand didn't enter into their
    minds when it came time to belly-up for a tough call, wail, you don't
>    understand human nature.
    
    	Again, from a typical fan, the others should always overrule,
    right?  Fact is, there is no overrule rule.  Since the majority of all
    calls are judgment calls, it would be pretty hard to overrule someone
    elses judgment.  Secondly, again not knowing how a two or three man 
    crew works could cause someone in the stands to say, "what were the
    other guys doing?"  Gee, if all three or two guys watch the ball, who
    is watching the other 8 players?  All the refs have certain areas where
    they focus on.  Since I didn't see the play, I can't comment on the
    positioning of the other two officials good or bad.  But from the
    description of the play being a bomb to the opposite end of the court,
    it would have been impossible for the trail to see any of the play
    since he was a good 80 feet away with 9 players between him and the
    ball.
    
    No excuses for the blown call.  I'll bet though that the ref that 
    blew the call won't be back next year in the Big Ten.  Div. I is the
    darling of officiating, but if you make a major mistake like that, it's
    lights out.
    
>    As to end-of-game situations, everything gets magnified.  The player
    who makes his first 10 but misses the buzzer-beater is gonna be a goat. 
    Same thing with officials.  The good ones will answer the bell; the bad
>    ones will shrink.
    
    On the surface I don't have a problem with that, but I wonder how many
    of us would want our reviews based upon one days work?  But this is
    the price you pay.  I can deal with it, but it simply isn't a fair
    assesment of my ability if only based upon 30 seconds of work, but
    that is just how many coaches and fans approach the officials work.
    
    
    bill..g.

         
  >  I know of no subconscious bias, and I know of no documentation that
  >  states the home team has a distinct advantage. 
    
    Admittedly what I've seen has come from the NBA, but there's no
    question that it's there.  The home-court advantage in the NBA is
    tremendous, and I see no reason why shooting a regulation ball at a
    regulation hoop on a regulation court is so much more a function of
    familiar surroundings than similar elements of other sports.  And in
    fact, a home-team advantage does show up in the officiating-based 
    statistics-- foul calls, turnover calls, etc.
    
    The home-team advantage wasn't a factor in the Penn State game,
    obviously, but the other two subconscious factors I mentioned were 
    working against them.  There is still absolutely no doubt in my mind 
    that had the teams in the situation been reversed the obvious, 
    automatic, 99.9%-of-the-time call against the defensive player would 
    have been made.
    
    For what it's worth, bias in officiating has been demonstrated in other
    sports, too, the difference being that the officials don't play as big
    a part in those sports as with basketball.  Some people who have
    nothing better to do have shown that in baseball almost all elements to
    the game are marginally affected by the park environment *except* 
    ball-strike calls (and therefore pitchers' walk totals).  It doesn't
    amount to too much, but it can still swing a game here or there.  I've
    already offered my opinion that I believe that this factor was present
    in the 9th inning of the 7th game of this year's NLCS, when pitches
    right down the center of the plate weren't eliciting so much as a 
    batted eyelash...
    
    Again, we're talking about subconscious behavior and human nature that
    isn't easily changed, and I'm not charging officials with general
    corruption by standing around before games plotting on who to get 
    next (but even then certain officials, including Dave Pallone in
    baseball, have publicly admitted to grudges acted upon in games).  
    I'll leave that kind of stuff to /Don and ACChris!  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    	Glenn, you really have to seperate the College and the Pros.  Two
    different beasts.  Personally, I don't see the hometeam getting the
    same edge as I do in the NBA.
    
    	Take this weekend in College hoops.  From the games I saw, Pitt
    beat Illinois on their court.  Great game.  Louisville ended UNLV's
    home win streak, and UNC beat Ga. Tech in their house.  Only IU
    came away with a 'home' win.
    
    	I'm not saying that it works out like this all the time, but you
    see far more upsets in college ball than pro ball.  Granted, the
    whole country knows now that PSU got jobbed.  Not a thing one can
    do about it now.  The head of the officials came out with an apology
    (I know big deal) but what else can he/they do?  A mistake was
    made an unfortunately, it cost PSU a game.
    
    	You aint gonna like it, but the ref's are human too, and unless
    you take the human element out of the game, mistakes will be made.
    
    bill..g.
    

Although I'm not sure the refs in the Pitt/Illini game were Big 10 refs, the
game was poorly officiated - both ways.  And I was in the nosebleeds!  Talking to
some old buddies who still have season's tix, it has been that way all year.

I always considered the Big 10 refs to be relatively poor, but this season
seems to be even worse.  Luckily, the outcome is not so bad thus far.

Indiana has pulled two squeakers out now, maybe the 3rd time will be the
charm. A win over IU in Bloomington would be very sweet for Lou.

Murph

    
    here's exactly what I mean folks.....
    
    
>Although I'm not sure the refs in the Pitt/Illini game were Big 10 refs, the
>game was poorly officiated - both ways.  And I was in the nosebleeds!  Talking to
    
    	So, the ref's stunk and you could tell because you were sitting in
    the nosebleeds.  Amazing that you and your friends have such good eye
    sight that you can see plays from hundreds of feet away that another
    person can't see from 10 feet!
    
    	Funny, but that is exactly why I won't go to many sporting events!
    Sitting in the nosebleeds puts one to far away from the action to
    really see much of anything especially when the playing surface is only
    94'x50'.  But yet I find it amazing that there are so many folks out
    there that seem to be able to see contact from the peanut gallery that
    3 others cannot from 10 feet away.
    
    	Personally, out of the 4 games I saw over the weekend in parts, I
    thought they were all pretty well officiated.  I guess I'm just biased
    though.
    
    bill..g.

   
>>Although I'm not sure the refs in the Pitt/Illini game were Big 10 refs, the
>>game was poorly officiated - both ways.  And I was in the nosebleeds!  Talking to
    
>    	So, the ref's stunk and you could tell because you were sitting in
>    the nosebleeds.  Amazing that you and your friends have such good eye
>    sight that you can see plays from hundreds of feet away that another
>   person can't see from 10 feet!

My season ticket holding friends sitting in  SECTION A ROW 1 confirmed
 my suspicions. 

> But yet I find it amazing that there are so many folks out
>    there that seem to be able to see contact from the peanut gallery that
>    3 others cannot from 10 feet away.

Even in the "nosebleeds" I can see the motion of three steps with no dribble.
That was the primary complaint I had, though the play seemed rougher than
the number of fouls

>    	Funny, but that is exactly why I won't go to many sporting events!
>    Sitting in the nosebleeds puts one to far away from the action to
>   really see much of anything especially when the playing surface is only
>    94'x50'.

I could have sat at home and watched it on the tube.  But not everybody is
a couch potato slob.  I go for the atmosphere and to meet with my friends -
in this case I traveled 1000 miles to see people I hadn't seen in months - 
a basketball game gave us an excuse to get together and go out afterwards.
I guess to each his own, but I'm more interested in going to games as an
event than for the close views.

Flame off - sorry - you get as you give.

Murph

    
    Hey Murph, no problem.  I'm a ref so I'm used to folks yelling at me. 
    
    As for implying that I'm a couch potato by wanting to stay home and watch 
    a game, I'd take a closer look at my officiating schedule and then we
    can determine if I qualify.  
    
    Actually, I caught a break on Saturday.  I happened to be home in the
    afternoon after doing 3 games earlier that day.  I decided against doing 2
    more cause I was fighting the flu.  Sorry that watching a game on the
    tube constitutes being a couch potato.
    
>Even in the "nosebleeds" I can see the motion of three steps with no dribble.

    So, can you or your friends tell me just how many steps you can take
    without a dribble for it to be legal?  Can you tell me if it is legal
    to lift your pivot foot before a dribble, or how about after a dribble
    has stopped.  How about if I'm dribbling and upon ending the dribble,
    I fumble the ball and continue to fumble it 10 feet without it hitting
    the floor?  Is this legal?  How about if I lose control of my dribble
    and it falls away...can I go over and resume my dribble?  Can I dribble
    the ball higher than my head?  If you can answer the above, then there 
    might be some hope for you in determining whether a dribble is or is not a
    legal play, or was it a travel...otherwise, stick to cheering for your 
    team.
    
    Funny though, I watched the same game and never saw the incident you are
    talking about.  I guess I must have missed it, along with the refs.
    
>a basketball game gave us an excuse to get together and go out afterwards.
>I guess to each his own, but I'm more interested in going to games as an
>event than for the close views.>Even in the "nosebleeds" I can see the motion of three steps with no dribble.
>That was the primary complaint I had, though the play seemed rougher than
>the number of fouls
    
    Here I agree.  Never said that I didn't want to go nor that I didn't.
    But if the choice is to sit in the peanut gallery or watch it at home,
    I'll watch it at home.  As you say, different strokes for different 
    folks, but I go and watch not for the atmosphere, but hopefully to
    learn something.  I've mainly lost all interest in going to games 
    strictly as a fan of team x.
    
    
    bill..g.

Yo Goose -

Here's da skinny:

* If'n da team I like is getting beat by da team I doane like, its
becuz da refs are screwing my team.

* Da other teams players always palm, carry, spit, garrotte, skin,
travel, double-dribble (da ball and dere lunch - haw) da ball - 
and da ref NEVER once calls it.  Meanwhile my team is whistled
fer taking breaths dat are toooo loud!

* Da udder guys are *ALWAYS* grabbing at my guys, holding dem,
hacking dem, cautherizing dem - but da refs never do anyding!   But
if one of my guys breathes on da udder guys - its TWEET time baby!

* Da refs are in da back packets of da big time coaches and da
networks!   Dats a fack.

* Dey let da udder coach yell and scream, pull an uzi on my 
teams coach, pour oil on da court, trip guys, etc. - and dey
jest joke wif him.   My teams coach - if he gets up and says
"Good Call Ref" - he's whistled for a T and threatened wif
bodily harm!

* If I was da ref - dings would be so different!

* I sure hope you realize dis is tung in da cheek!  ;-)

DJ

    
    DJ, 
    
    You hit the nail on the haid!!  I've heard everyone of those plus
    a few others I'd rather not get into.
    
    Hey, it ain't always an easy job, but I do have fun...specially when
    I remove my glasses...
    
    And, don't you guys realize that my supporting attacks for us zebras
    is simply sensitivity training for you armchair types.  I mean, just
    maybe, maybe in one of those rare fits of hatred and thoughts of murder
    against the ref for a supposed bone-haided play, you will take a 
    moment to reflect on all the stuff I've been sharing lately... and
    maybe you'll give the ref a break?  Nah, that wouldn't be the manly
    thing to do..  So just go ahead and yell, but I'fin I ever get one
    of youz in the stands, you'll understand if I give you an early exit
    from the gym...
    
    bill..g.
    
    
    p.s. I really don't wear glasses.  And BTW, when's the last time you
    saw a ref (on TV) wearing glasses?  I cain tell you, it don't happen.
    But you'll never know who's wearing contacts and who isn't... and
    no, I don't wear contacts either, although some players and coaches
    have advised me to get my eyes checked out.
    
    

If you are reffing a lot of games, I would probably - as you already seem to
be doing, try to find something else to do with my spare time than go to MORE
basketball games.  So I gets your point ;^)

But the Big 10 has NEVER been famous for quality reffing. But it is always
capable, and the outcomes, in the big scheme of things, are not determined
by the refs but by the teams.  "Bad" calls generally even out. 

Murph

    
    Bill, I think you might be overreacting a bit.  I don't consider
    referees to be some sort of subspecies of the human race that
    immediately become inferior once they don the uniform.  I know they're
    human.  My only point was that there are subconscious factors at work
    that are to be *expected*, and are expected precisely because it is
    human.  I've always been against instant replay and electronic umpires
    and the like in order to remove the human element from the game,
    because I don't think it's worth the cost.
    
    glenn
    

AAAAUGH!

Just got offered some of those beyoutiful sideline SRO tickets for 
PSU Illinois this weekend so I am driving out to exciting State College
PA to watch the Illini play again.

And since I am attending - I want to put a wager on it.  

Give me a point spread and I'll wager another uglee week with an uglee
p-name.

Murph

And if anyone went to Pepsi State and knows a good bar - I need some recs
for post game gloating.

    
    Murph,
    Try the 'Skellar on campus (short for Rathskellar). As Waugamain
    knows, you'll probly have to cut in line!
    
    

    
> And if anyone went to Pepsi State and knows a good bar - I need some recs
> for post game gloating.
    
    A place called the Rathskellar (kinda like the one in Boston, matter of
    fact) seems to be the down-and-dirty student/sports-crowd bar on campus.  
    MikeL, Dave McNeil and I were there last year and it seemed like the
    most active place...
    
    I don't know if you'll find anyone willing to touch Penn State at under
    20 points in hoops.
    
    glenn
    

    
    re: glenn
    
    	Overreacting?  Nah.  I'm just getting even! :-)  I taken, ahh
    I should say we meaning the ref's have taken a enormous amount of
    crap over the years and most of it is needless because the majority
    of the people complaining don't really understand the rules, and this
    includes coaches.
    
    	Please excuse my overreacting, but I playfully get excited when
    folks jump on the officials.  Most of the stuff just goes in one ear
    and out the other cause if I/we let it affect us and how we work a
    game, then officiating would really be a mess.  
    
    	All I'd ever ask of any fan or coach is to take the view from the
    officials side when complaining about a call.  In some cases they/I
    will make mistakes, but the majority of complaints are make from those
    either watching from TV, watching from possibly hundreds of feet away,
    or from folks that simply do not understand the 'real' rule.. you know,
    not the one that you grew up with and thought was correct.
    
    	I'll leave you all with this one tidbit of a rule which I guarantee
    will cause you considerable grief the next time you try to call this
    play legal, but it is and it happens all the time.
    
    	Case in point:  player from team A takes a shot (say medium jump
    shot).  Shooter A1 realizes the ball will fall short of hitting
    anything, so he follows his shot and happens to catch the ball before
    it hits the backboard, net, rim, or the floor.  Is this legal?  You 
    bet!  Most would say that a player cannot 'catch' his own pass, but
    this wasn't a pass, it was a shot, which is a big difference.  
    
    	In the above play, A1 after catching his own shot could then 
    dribble, pass, or shoot again.   Now, guys, have fun with that one
    next time it happens on the court...but remember, it must be a shot,
    cause it is illegal to catch your own pass.  
    
    bill..g.

>  	In the above play, A1 after catching his own shot could then 
>    dribble, pass, or shoot again.   Now, guys, have fun with that one
>    next time it happens on the court...but remember, it must be a shot,
>    cause it is illegal to catch your own pass.  
    

What is a "shot"?  I say he was passing to the center in the post who decided
to cut the other way so nobody was there to catch the PASS.

Is that like when the ball slips backwards off Jim Kelly's hand and goes
backwards but his arm was moving forward so it is a pass and not a fumble?

Murph

    As one who has recently taken up the whistle, I hear ya Goose.

    
    I think it's time for a resurrection of goose's famous "You make the
    call" note!
    
    When he had lots of free time (circa OURGNG::SPORTS), that was one of
    my favorites!
    
    MtW(whistling)M -> "You blind old jerk!  Anybody could see that the
    other guy started it!  Get a life willya!"
    
    I remain,
    helping you enjoy being a zebra!
    Kev
    

>                       -< they're chartreuse and white >-


Nope.

Black Shorts, Black socks.  Jersey must be a different color than
that which the two competitive teams are wearing.   (In the case
of the last World Cup, the jersies were these multi-colored affairs
which really stood out)


hth,
'Saw
    

    
    snot important what the clothes are.
    
    he's steel a blind jerk on a power trip!  ;^)
    
    (goose excepted) doesn't the saying go, those who can play, play and
    those who cain't - ref?
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    a player playing!
    Kev
    

    
    re:.67
    
>What is a "shot"?  I say he was passing to the center in the post who decided
>to cut the other way so nobody was there to catch the PASS.
    
    Well, if you can't tell the difference, then there is no hope for ya..
    just kidding.
    
    Seriously, that is exactly why I said it must be a shot.  Technically
    it is a toss, throw, tip, tap, or try at scoring a basket.  After
    officiating about a 1000 games by now, I think I can tell when a 
    player is shooting and when he is passing.
    
    The point remains that you can go and get your missed shot even if it
    doesn't touch the rim or backboard.
    
    I'd just love to be around when some of you guys try to pass that off
    during one of your friendly games...you'll be arguing for hours.
    Main point to remember, if it is a pass, it is a pass.  If it is a 
    shot, it remains a shot and there is no stipulation for when a player
    may re-gain or gain control of a missed shot..of course provided that
    it is not on its downward flight and above the rim, or on or within
    the rim.  Other than that, anyone may secure the missed shot.
    
    bill..g.
    

    This new line of political correctness being spouted by referee bill is
    really starting to grate.  I mean, does one have to be a politician to
    talk politics?  Do you hafta be a doctor to know enough to take an
    aspirin when you're feverish?  Must I be a psychiatrist to recognize
    that BobKnight at times has been emotionally unstable and verbally
    abusive toward fans and players alike?
    
    Now that the foundation has been laid by officer bill.g.., I suspect we
    can look forward to being forced to answer competancy questions on
    "rules of the game" every time we dare suspect a bad call.  
    
    (BTW, ref bill is the only person in the USA I know of who:
    
    1) Hasn't seen the IU > PSU "call of the century"
    
    and
    
    2) Rushed to the defense of the referee who made the call, even in
       light of #1!  Haw haw haw!!!
    
    Huff, huff, and puff.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    
    	But Crisp, that is the problem.  You know, a bunch of people sit
    around and criticize who know nothing about what they speak.  So
    you see, politics IS like hoop ref'in.
    
    	Secondly, I never said that all you armchairs couldn't cuss and
    throw junk every time you think My-State-U gets robbed.  Hey, even
    this stripped shirt realizes that it is part of every man that in
    order to show himself a manley type to his girl, or other manley types,
    he must yell at the refs soas to make those around him think that he
    is smat.  You know, it ranks right up there with having the ole gun
    rack in truck cab.
    
    	Lastly, I know plenty of folks who have not seen the PSU/IU call.
    You know, I do have other things going on in my life.  And, I don't/
    didn't have to see the call to know it was incorrect.  The supervisor
    of the Big Ten officials came out and said so, which is good enough
    for me.  I've said more than once that the official blew the call,
    and because of that, probably won't be around next year to blow another
    one.
    
    	Lastly, lastly, there will be some in here that in time will thank
    their lucky stars and might possibly be praising my name if in one
    of their weekend belly-bumping contests they use what little info I've
    given here to win a game, or even an argument.  You see, what some of
    the good coaches have over the average coach is that they KNOW the
    rules, and they know how to use them.  Whereas the average joe, doesn't
    know the rules and doesn't know how to use them.
    
    	So Crisp, talk all you want.  Yell at those refs, although I doubt
    that many in here will listen..but then again, maybe some of those
    other armchairs you hang out with will think you're pretty smart...
    afterall, it is the thing to do.
    
    bill..g.
    

    officer bill, the next time I make_a incorrect rooles analysis of a
    zerbra's call will also be the *first* time.  As to being an armchair
    ref-baiter, I confess, I'm guilty.  When I'm at a game and rootin' on
    the home team there's no greater pleasure (wail, maybe a few ...) than
    layin' into a ref.  Not only does it release all these internal
    tensions and convert me from a TypeA to TypeB person, but it just help
    my team win.  (See Waugamain for the Psychology 101 lesson.)
    
    As to your ridiculous "shot vs. pass" question, all's I can say is I'd
    keep that particular rule in my pocket and only take it out for SPORTS
    trivia questions.  The only guy on the planet I cain think of who'd
    have the nerve to allow a player to catch his own shot/pass is Lenny
    Wertz, and wif his jupiter-sized ego he'd probably do it as a
    game-breaker on somebody's home floor.
    
    Youch!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
>    As to your ridiculous "shot vs. pass" question, all's I can say is I'd
    keep that particular rule in my pocket and only take it out for SPORTS
    trivia questions.  The only guy on the planet I cain think of who'd
    have the nerve to allow a player to catch his own shot/pass is Lenny
    Wertz, and wif his jupiter-sized ego he'd probably do it as a
>    game-breaker on somebody's home floor.
    
    	He's not the only guy.  Believe it or not, I get/make that call
    at LEAST twice a year.  Usually causes quite a stir which usually 
    makes me bring out the rulebook and thus sends the belly-bumpers back
    to the couch.  
    
    	It's really not as ridiculous as you think and it doesn't take any
    more nerve than any other call.  All the guys I work with also make
    the same type of call.  You see, it is a rule/non-rule.  Should I not
    inforce it, or should I penalize the player who hustles after that
    missed shot, just because it doesn't 'look right'?  It is a no-call,
    and I'll continue to call it that way until the rule is changed.  
    
    	Like I said, it may just help your team out one day.  
    
    bill..g.
    

Good news/Bad news:

The good news:

	I had  a free round trip frequent flier ticket.   

The bad news:

	My wife is pregnant and due to deliver in a month.  The free ticket
	expires in two months.   She can't go anywhere.

The good news:

	I decide to do something my wife wouldn't want to do.   Fly to my
	alma mater, Purdue, and see a baketball game.  

The bad news:

	No tickets available for the Purdue vs. Northwestern game.

The good news:

	I have a friend whose father is a big donor to Purdue alum fund.
	Surely he can get me tickets.   

The bad news:

	Evidently he's not a big enough donor.


The good news:

	My fried says "Well, I'll drive over from Ohio and we'll buy some
	tickets from the scalpers" and I'll stay over for the weekend.
	So I make the reservations and get set to go.

The bad news:

	My friend is a female.   

The good news:
	
	My wife is a saint.   Trip is on!   

The bad news:

	Snowstorm hits Indiana day before game.   Friend arrives with
	somewhat annoyed and hostile husband who I'd never met before.
	Has to have a Wendy's Biggie Coke filled 50% with Jim Beam.  Oh oh.
	Makes it clear that he doesn't want to go to game.

The good news:

	Game is on local tv.  Go buy some beer and three orders of breadsticks
	from Noble Romans (can't get them down in SC).   Turn on the game.  
	
The bad news:

	Purdue LOSES to Northwestern.  First road win for NU in 60 games.
	Purdue looks worse than ever, having no talented players except for
	Glenn Robinson (12/20 FG, 8 boards).     They have gone from being 
	a highly ranked team to being on the bubble after losing two Illinois
	in 2 OT Thursday.   4 games remain with Mich State, Iowa, Ohio State,
	and Penn State.   They must win three to get a bid in my opinion.
	Luckily, three of the four are at home.

The good news:

	Made it home safely.   

    The real bad news Doug:
    
    You ended up watchin' TV in Indiana.
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    
    
    	This is mainly for Crisp, but I thought I'd just let all of you
    know.
    
    	Last week, Crisp blasted me about my absurd observation on that
    little tidbit about a player being able to rebound/catch his own
    shot.
    
    	Well, as luck would have it, I had it happen to me twice last week!
    Imagine that, twice in one week I had this absurd call.  Acutally a
    no-call.  The first time, it didn't cause much of a stir, but in the
    second game, which was closer, it caused more than a few ill-advised
    comments.  But hey guys, I don't write the rules, I only enforce 'em.
    
    	So, in one week, I almost filled my quota of 'catching your own
    shot' play for the whole year!
    
    bill..g.
    

	Congrats Bill!  But I don't know if CrispyCritters will read this 
because he's real busy in the ACC note downplaying the Starheels talent.

				/Don

    bill I hate's to be mean to ya on yer last week and all, but I gotta
    axe:
    
    Just what kindof games are you refin' where you witness not once, but
    twice (in one week!) a player catch his own shot????
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    re: crisp
    
>    Just what kindof games are you refin' where you witness not once, but
>    twice (in one week!) a player catch his own shot????
    
    
    	Why, the kind you would play in!  :-)
    
    
    	Actually, it's the WANNBE league.  A bunch of young guns and old
    hero's that wannbe famous.. Only the NBA don't call on their phones.
    Like I said, it's not that unusual, although I don't recall seeing it
    happen on a national game.  It's kind of hard to do, but given the
    right situation (usuall a chippy from one side of the hoop with the
    player falling away to the other side) it can (and does) happen a few
    times a year in games I work.
    
    bill..g.
    

    Re: .81
    
    Actually I don't see how Purdue was rated to begin with this year.  It
    was pretty evident when the Gophers beat them here in the first or
    second game of the Big 10 season that all they had was Robinson and
    four other guys watching him do it all.  In my opinion the top Big 10
    teams (IU, Michigan, Illnoise and Iowa) are very solid, but after that
    no team deserves ranking.  Minnesota, Michigan State, Purdue and
    Wisconsin at this point do not deserve to make the NCAA, but one or two
    probably will.
    
    If Clem pulls off a 9-9 (his goal from way back) he thinks they should
    go.  When you look at the absolute cupcake preseason schedule though,
    a 15-9 record at this point is not very impressive. 
    
    I'll also predict that somehow Michigan will screw up and not make the
    Final Four by finding themselves in a close game and miss key FT's to
    blow it.
    
    
    Spud

    Michigan beat Iowa at the Chrisler (Fisher) Arena lasted night on
    national TV.  Fisher should be up for Coach of the year.  Despite
    having the "Greatest recruiting class of all time" and being a
    preseason favorite, Fisher has still managed to get them to the top
    5.  Bobby Knight obviously has all the horses with Chaney and Bailey
    to lead the conference, but Michigan's been tough.  Fisher's dealt with
    Webber's injury, Pelinka's injury and molded a fine unit. I think they'll
    fold in the tourney though.  I mean, I know corn is Michigan Maize, but
    they're playing above their heads.

    Somehow the Gophs beat Illnoise last night 67-65 despite missing eight
    FT's in the last 1:49.  They didn't shoot well either.  Kaufman must
    really be in Lou Do's doghouse.  He played nine minutes and scored two
    points.  Gophs are 8-8 and must win at PSU if they still want to make
    the NCAA.  I don't see them winning at OSU in the final game.
    
    
    Spud

	The latest rumor out of Bloomington is that Alan Henderson has an 
80-90% tear of his anterior cruciate ligament.  If true, he's clearly out for 
the rest of the season.  As far as I know, the school hasn't yet issued any 
statement on the extent of his injury.

	Calbert Cheaney scored 35 in a 98-69 win over Northwestern last night, 
surpassing Steve Alford's career scoring record at Indiana, and Glen Rice's 
career Big Ten scoring record.

tom

 Quinn Buckner said he didn't expect to see him back this year. 

 mike

Well, despite losing 4 of the last 5 (well 3 WERE on the road) my pal
Dickie V has picked Illinois to be his sleeper of the tourney.  Of course,
six years ago he said that if they lost to Austin Peay he'd stand on his head.

But he also correctly picked the Illini final four run.

Good bracket for Illinois, IMO Arizona is the only #2 they can beat, and they
already smashed Vanderbilt by 20 earlier. I think LBSU will be a harder game
than Vandy because Illinois matches up so well against the Commodores. 

The dream is to get revenge for beating Michigan twice in the regular season and
losing in the tourney, by doing the same for a final four bid.  But it is a 
pretty wild dream.

Minnesota and Vegas got screwed - no way should the A10 get four teams or the 
Big Least 3.

FWIW - 

Murph

    Big 10 is 1-3 so far in postseason hoops.

Chris,

This really needs some elaboration.

Two of these were particularly bad efforts: Ohio State lost at home to
Miami o' Ohio; Wisconsin lost at home to Rice. 

In one of the better efforts, Michigan St lost at Oklahoma.

Minnesota was the sole winner, beating Florida.

That leads, of course, to:

	MAC,SWC > Big10 > SEC.

TTom

    Make that 2-4 now...
    

    The Big 10 is very lucky to still have their two number 1 seeds left.
    
    The Fab 5 is so different form last year's loose cocky bunch. This year
    they're still cocky but really looked tight near the end. They are so
    lucky that the UCLA guy didn't try to shoot at the end of regulation.
    
    Indiana looked very shaky against Xaivier in what amounted to a home 
    game. Louisville could give them big problems. The first ever NCAA
    meeting between two coaches with 5 titles between them.
    
    

    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Thomas Hamilton, late of King HS in Chiacgo, and entering frosh at Illinois
has passed his ACT's, so all 4 of Illinois top 150 rated recruits will be 
available next year. Put Hamilton in the middle and Deon Thomas should average
about 35 a game. Add to that the fact that Kaufmann is history, Brooks Taylor is
gone, but the rest of the team returns, and I think you can make a case for the
Illini finally breaking out and winning the Big 10 woth Indiana minus Cheaney 
and Michigan minus Webber.

Time will tell...

Murph

    Apparently I was misled, very much so. Not only is Hamilton not
    eligible, he was denied admission to Illinois and is eligible to
    enroll anywhere else without losing eligibility. Apparently he
    was so far away from 700 that even under a special admissions program
    he couldn't get in.  I figure he'll just have to settle for playing
    with Brandon at LSU, or mebee go to the Big Least, they have no
    standards. Good trend for the Illini, no Prop 48's since Marcus
    Liberty. Not by Lou's choice, probably, since two players he signed
    were later denied admission in the last few years. 
    
    Apparently, Hamilton had a B average at King. Kind of sad that a B
    student can't even hit 700.
    
    In related news, his teammate Rashard Griffith did qualify and will
    play for Wisconsin next year. Apparently, he was declared learning
    disabled and was allowed to take the test orally, with no time limit.
    The proctor was allowed to explain the questions.
    
    Murph
    

    Hamilton has been accepted to Pitt. No surprise, he was scooped up by a 
    Big Least team. 
    
    Murph

Murph -

I'll post grad rates in another note, but since you are an Illinois fan, I'll
tell ya that for student-athletes, the grad rates for students entering
85/86 was 64%, and for 86/87 was 74%.  OVerall grad rate for all students was 78%.

Overall, the Big East's grad rate for student athletes is better than the
big 10, and Illinois rates is signifacantly better than only two Big East
schools - Miami and Pitt.   

Highest student athlete grad rate was 79% in the big 10.  That rat would
rand tied for fourth, with St. John's in the Big East (BC, Georgetown and
Providence are all over 93%.

So, you comment regarding SAT, was basically flat out wrong.

JD

Also, should be noted that only 3 Big East teams had lower grad rates for student
athletes than for the general student population.  The Big Ten had 7 teams with
lower grad rates for athletes.

JD

    Graduation rates? Who cares. Do you expect Nick Anderson and Kendall
    Gill to leave lucrative pro careers to go get their degrees now? The
    entire 85-87 recruiting class of Illinois is now playing some form of
    pro ball. 3 left school early to do so, and I see many of my more
    prepared friends taking 4.5 - 5 years to graduate, without having to
    spend time in practice or on the road.
    
    At issue here is Pitt accepting someone who can't READ! Thankfully
    since Anderson and Marcus Liberty, Illinois had not fielded a Prop 48
    player and refused admission to Brandon and Hamilton. I don't think
    Henson cares (despite hassling Kaufmann earlier this year for missing
    classes) but at least the school is maintaining some form of control.
    
    Murph
    

    > So, you comment regarding SAT, was basically flat out wrong.
    
    Lessee, a Big10 school rejects a kid who cain't read, and who flunked
    his SAT.  A BigLeast school scoops him up.  A noter sez:
    
    "Big Least < 700 SAT"
    
    and U say he's "flat out wrong".
    
    Wrong on what?!  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Murph - 

FWIW - grad rates mean the kid has 5 years to graduate.  That's standard.  Rates
are for all academics.  You indicted the whole Big East due to one player - and
obviously you have sour grapes cuz he left Illinois.  I merely showed you stats
showing your generalization of a whole conference to be flat out wrong.  Face up
to it like a man.  What guarentee do you have that these superstars hoops players
would have graduated anyway?  Since it seems obvious they went to school only to
be basketball mercenaries (and to choke big time in the NCAAs...)

Chris -

I don't defend Pitt.  They are near the bottom of the Big East.  Since you root for
a conference with Clemson in it - I wouldn't be crowing too much Chrissy babe.  
He indicted the whole conference Chris.  I showed him he was wrong.  

JD

    > I merely showed you stats showing your generalization of a whole 
    > conference to be flat out wrong.
    
    Try and answer these questions JD, as best you're able:
    
    Q: Did Murph say that Hamilton transfered to Pitt?
    
    Q: Is Pitt in the Big East Conference?
    
    Hope this helps clear up this little spat of hypocrisy you're
    struggling wif.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Crispy -

Murph's title for his note is Big Least < 700 SAT

That is called a generalization.  And its flat out wrong.  Last year I posted the
overall grad rates for hoops scholarships - and the Big East came out right near
the top overall, with schools like St. John's at 100% for the period studied.

So, Murph's title implies the the Big East is full of schools that accept and
have student-athletes with under 700 SATs.  Given the grad rates, especially
in comparison with overall student trends, and with other conferences, shows
that his generalization is wrong.

Chrips, we know you hate the Big East, so your arguements are merely your
blind hatred skewing your views.

Regards,

JD

    > Chrips, we know you hate the Big East, so your arguements are merely
    > your blind hatred skewing your views.
    
    Totally false JD.  It's a myth that's been propagated by BigLeastBigots
    such as yourselves that I hate the BigTVeast.
    
    What I hate are all the bandwagon fans who jumped on this blatant
    "made-for-TV" conference that really isn't a conference at all but
    rather a collection of basketball schools that were solid in their own
    right long before Dave Gavitt's brainstorm came along.
    
    HTH.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Chrissy -

Oh, and are these fains any different than say, a guy who claims to be
a_ACC fain, though he never attended a school there?  Are they different
from the legions of fains I see now wearing TarHell blew?

We've been through the conference stuff a zillion times.  Anyone that
doesn't have some hatred for the BigEast sees where making a conference
made a lot of sense.  Many of those schools are small commuting schools 
or Jesuit type schools that wouldn't be able to compete at all if they remained
independent.  

The fact that these smaller schools have maintained their legacy of 
excellent academic fortunes while becoming more of a power in major
sports is a credit, and no amount of your biased bile will change that.

JD

    Never said the formation of the BigEast was a bad idea.  My gripe is
    all these newly invented "fans" who are suddenly in my face 'bout how
    superior "their" league is, even though it'd been formed from dust by
    men interested in making money.  (Lots of it.)
    
    The BigEast was a great idea, just like Three's Company and Charlie's
    Angels were great ideas.  But let's not confuse these Pop Hits with 
    the classics.  (i.e. ACC, B10)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    BTW, one bad aspect of my BigEast == Pop analogy is that, generally Pop
    Culture is fun, light, and easy to watch, which contrasts sharply with
    watching a typical BigLeast game, which usually lasts 2.5 hours and is
    filled with fouling and low scoring and is generally a bore to watch.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Soup -

The Big East fains were there all along.  Folks like me followed St. John's before the
league - and kept on doing it.   You probably have some psychological disorder hidden
in your subconscious that makes you feel guilty for being a bandwagon ACC fain when
you rightly should have picked up and rooted for a local team.  But you needed
the warmth and security of a conference.  When the Big East came around, you found
yerself trapped - missing out in the fun everyone around you was having.

So you immersed yerself deeper in the delusion of being an true ACC'er, when in
fack (tm) yer always be a faux ACC fain and southerner....

JD

    Did the Big Ten move East?

    re: .-1 
    
    Thanks for physchoanalysis JD.  Send me a bill for however long you
    spent dreaming up the concoction of pure physcho-babble.
    
    Haw haw haw!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

See Soup -

Now you are in denial!   First you suffer from displacement, then you have wierd
idolotry problems (worshipping Dean!), you've had bouts of paranoia...

You one sick person Chris.  If you would confess you'd feel better.  Your
infatuation with slamming the Big East signifies a deep rooted insecurity.

JD

    
    MtM,
    
    Big Ten -> East ?
    
    I suppose it depends on where State College, Pa. is classified?
    
    I remain,
    a SJU rooter before ACC_Choke was even a grin on his daddy's face too!
    Kev
    

    JD STOP WASTING YOUR TIME IN THIS NOTE...
    
    Didnt you see that the NBA is looking into the Jordan Gambling Issue
    why arnt you in the Bulls note giving me a hard time.
    
    I thought you wasted your time arguing with me, but to waste your time
    arguing with someone who thinks the entire conference (THE BIGEAST) is
    all crooked because one school let in one student is worse then what we
    usally argue about... 
    
    Please come home (To the bulls notes), I miss ya :-)
    
    								MairB

MairB -

That's what I like about you - you take the ribbing well!

They will exonerate Jordan anyway.  


JD

    Apparently some movie was shot in Indiana this week that featured Nick
    Nolte coaching a team from a fictitious "Western University" His team
    included Shaq and Matt Nover, and they played Indiana, coached by Bob
    Knight, played by Bob Knight, including some of last years team, older
    alums, and Bobby Hurley.
    
    I wanna see Hurley in the Cream and Crimson.
    
    I guess they let them play a live "game" and Western lost when Shaq
    bricked two at the end. They reshot him winning the game on a dunk.
    
    This may be a dog but I am going to have to see it anyway. I guess it
    is called "Blue Chippers"
    
    Murph

    Was Robbie Benson in it too?
    

    Is the Big Ten Basketball schedule out yet? any pointers would be
    appriciated.
    
    thanks -dennis

Article: 20408
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (CHARMAIN KOSEK)
Newsgroups: clari.news.lifestyle,clari.tw.education,clari.news.law.civil,clari.news.top
Subject: Big Ten fined, seven schools must forfeit scholarships
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 15:17:03 PDT
 
	CHICAGO (UPI) -- The NCAA has censured the Big Ten and fined the
league d 75,000 for a rule that allowed seven universities to hand out
the equivalent of 65 scholarships more than they were allowed during a
four-year period, NCAA and Big Ten officials announced Monday.
	It is the first time since 1974, when the Ohio Valley Conference was
reprimanded for violating eligibility rules, that a conference has been
censured or reprimanded for a major rules violation. It also is the
first time ever the NCAA has fined a conference for a major rule
violation, said David Swank, dean of the law school at the University of
Oklahoma and chairman of the NCCA Committee on Infractions.
	In a conference call from Norman, Okla., Swank said the rule in
question dealt with computing equivalency scholarships and factoring in
higher out-of-state tuition.
	The Big Ten adopted the rule in 1978, rejected repealing it in 1984
and finally repealed it in 1990. Swank said the NCAA raised concerns
about the rule shortly after it was adopted but the Big 10 for some
reason never passed that concern on to member schools. Swank and Big Ten
Commissioner Richard Delaney declined to lay blame on any individual.
	The net effect was that seven Big Ten members -- Illinois, Iowa,
Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana and Purdue -- handed out the
equivalent of 65 scholarships more than they should have in a four-year
period.
	Each now must reduce their scholarships during the next four years --
Wisconsin by 4.9 each year; Illinois, 3.3; Michigan, 2.5, and Purdue, 2.
2. The remaining three schools had lesser amounts and no violations were
committed by Northwestern, Michigan State or Ohio State, officials said.
	Despite giving out too many scholarships, Swank said he doubted 
``there was any serious competitive advantage to any school during the
period of time when you consider the total number of scholarships
granted by each of the Big Ten schools.''
	Delaney, who said the scholarships in question account for less than
2 percent of all grants in aid, said the Big Ten will have to send back
d 75,000 of the d 128,000 it had gotten from the NCAA for the 1993-94
year ``and then have to go back to our schools and ask for some help or
eliminate some services.''
	Delaney said he would recommend the overages be totaled for the seven
schools involved ``and try to come up with some percentage and then ask
the schools involved to make up the difference.''
	When asked if that was fair since the schools were following the Big
Ten rule and had not been told of the NCAA's concerns, Delaney said: 
``They might say, 'No. Cut the services.' We are an association of 11
schools. We are them and they are us.''

    In case you missed it...
    
    Former Ohio State basketball great Jim Jackson was acquitted of charges
    that he had threatened some people in Columbus with a gun last
    December.

    When is Michigan going to get rid of that faux pas QB from
    Massachusetts and recruit a real QB from QB states like Florida,
    California, and Arizona?

  Refresh my memory, Mike. What QBs has Arizona produced? If you had
 said Pennsylvania you might have had more credibility.

Arizona is on its second Danny White. Right, Mike?

TTom

Washington is a real QB state mike...


Rypien, Moon, Conklin, Tolliver, Bledsoe, Hobert, Chandler.....


Metz

    Hold on a sec Metz.
    
    Hobert's mo' like a $50Kback, not $.25back.
    
    MikeL
    

Actually he'd be a minus $50Kback because he owed the cash to somebody...
Supposedly he's paid it all back now that he's making the big bucks
now....although I fully expect to read a sob story about him in 7-9 years about
how he's broke and his wife left him and he can't find a job (after he's out of
football)...

In fact it'll make a pretty good country-western song...

I borrowed $50k, got kicked out of school, signed for big bucks, spent it all
on guns and cars, got cut, my wife left me and now I'm lying in the gutter....


I'll start working on the lyrics and a line dance...


Metz

>I borrowed $50k, got kicked out of school, signed for big bucks, spent it all
>on guns and cars, got cut, my wife left me and now I'm lying in the gutter....
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sounds like a case of taking the good with the bad...

TTom

You ain't seen pictures of Billy Joe's wife....

Hubba, hubba....


Metz

>  Refresh my memory, Mike. What QBs has Arizona produced? If you had
> said Pennsylvania you might have had more credibility.
    
    Yeah I forgot about PA with Joe Montana, and a few other big names
    (Theismann?  Bradshaw?  Namath?).
    
    AZ has produced a few more than MA (can't recall a single one in my
    lifetime).  Danny White was mentioned.  Paul Justin (Arizona Rattlers' QB 
    via ASU), Grady Benton (NCAA passing efficiency record holder, current
    ASU QB), Mike Pagel (was a starter & backup for both the Colts and Browns 
    via ASU), Jeff Van Raaphorst (led ASU to its only Rose Bowl appearance and 
    beat Michigan, drafted and cut by the Broncos), and I'm sure there are
    more I'm forgetting.  
    
    All of these had very good to excellent NCAA careers.  The current Michigan 
    team would be 2-0 with any of these QB's.  Big Blue should stick with
    Massachusetts for backs and receivers and get their QB's elsewhere.
    
    Mike

    
    >>Yeah I forgot about PA with Joe Montana, and a few other big names
    >>(Theismann?  Bradshaw?  Namath?).
    
    Lessee, Montana, Kelly, Marino, Hostetler(I think), and there are a
    couple of more out of Western Penna., I'll dig them up and get em in
    here soon.
    
    JaKe
    

    Has there ever been a successful QB from Massachusetts?

  Define "success". Matt Rogers who started for Iowa and was drafted came
 from the same high school as Michigan's starter. Don Hasselbeck ex-Patriot 
 tight end sent his son to that same high school (Walpole) and he received
 a full boat from BC. Doug Flutie has had some degree of "success". Clarzell
 Pearl is lighting it up for BU. A kid form your old neighborhood took UMass
 to the Divison 1-AA championship game. However, if by "success" a great NFL
 QB, none comes to mind but I think it could be argued that Arizona has yet
 to produce one either.

    Greg Landry went to UMass, although he was actually from Nashua, NH.
    He enjoyed more success in the NFL than any of those Arizona QBs.
    
    The original premise is ridiculous in any case.  Where a kid comes from
    is completely incidental to how he will perform.  Some regions
    obviously produce more football players to start with, but every kid is
    different.  Collins may or may not be the man for Michigan, but his 
    Massachusetts background has nothing to do with it (as it didn't with 
    Landry, for example).  A strong program like Michigan's is not in dire 
    need of more kids from Arizona, at QB or otherwise.  "Would-be
    Michigan Heisman winners, ex-USFL star Paul Justin and NFL-reject Jeff
    Van Raaphorst!"  What utter propagandist shill.  Michigan's problem is
    and always has been coaching.  On the other hand, Arizona St. needs to
    develop all this great local talent towards the goal of avoiding
    blowouts at the hands of top-notch programs like Louisville...
    
    glenn
         

	Terry Bradshaw is from Lousiana. Ruxton rings a bell. Beside throwing
footballs, he held or still holds the HS Javelin record for the US.

  Cadzilla2  

    Greg Landry had more success than Danny White?  I don't think so, but 
    it doesn't matter anyway.  QB is a tough position for any state. 
    However, there's no denying the numerous Arizonans in professional
    sports.  Even Tommy's hero, Reggie Jackson.
    
    Who's the lad from my neighborhood at UMass?

 It was Mike McEvilly.

    Oh okay, I thought you meant somebody current.

        <<< Note 20.146 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>


> It was Mike McEvilly.
    
    Who struck me out to end the District Champeenship game in '76.  St.
    John's went on to defeat Brockton for the Mass State Champeenship that
    year.
    
    Mark.

> It was Mike McEvilly.
    
>>    Who struck me out to end the District Champeenship game in '76.  St.
>>    John's went on to defeat Brockton for the Mass State Champeenship that
>>    year.
    
  
  that explains the usual chip on the shoulder.....

  ;^)

Hey, anytime Brockton loses in anything, it's ok by me...

    Danny White, Mark Malone, Dennis Sproul, Mike Pagel, and Joe Spagnola.
    
    Spagnola & Kush helped put ASU on the map in '70 by beating UNC in the
    Peach Bowl.  The Tar Heels led 28-7 at the half.  The Droods won the
    game 45-28.

That musta been before No Carolina had Dick Crum for a coach. Crum won
something like 10 straight bowl games. No Carolina rewarded him by firing
him. OK, technically he was bought out but any way you cut it, he got the
bum's rush.

TTom

 
    > Spagnola & Kush helped put ASU on the map in '70 by beating UNC in the
    > Peach Bowl.  The Tar Heels led 28-7 at the half.  The Droods won the
    > game 45-28.
    
    Okay, poll of the day... who else remembers Joe Spagnola putting 
    Arizona St. on the map in 1970 with that stirring victory over unranked 
    North Carolina in the mother of all bowl games, the Peach?  I remember
    it like yesterday.  One of the greatest games I've ever seen...
    
    glenn
    

 The memories just come flooding back...

 

    Frank Kush made Holtz look like Mother Theresa, so I'm told
    

Hey, did I ever show youse guys my Joe Spagnola football card?

That list of Qb's would certainly strike fear into most NFL coaches preparing
for game day, wouldn't it?

I didn't even think Arizona was a state in the 70's....


Metz

    I'm still waiting for the Massachusetts representatives to name one. ;-)

They did..Greg Landry...

He was a better Qb than any of the stiffs from Az. you've been parading out as
examples...

Metz

 >   I'm still waiting for the Massachusetts representatives to name one. ;-)
    
    Hey Mike, if you're going to pass off someone named Jeff Van Raaphorst 
    as an example of one of those fine athetic products of the state of 
    Arizona, I'll go with Landry and Flutie and take my chances.  Hell,
    other guys from BC (like Halloran) have even made NFL teams, but I
    figure there's no point in even bringing up this "star of the Peach
    Bowl and made final roster cuts with the now-defunct Winnipeg Blue
    Bombers" stuff...
    
    glenn
     

    did Greg Landry take a team to the Conference Finals at all?  Danny
    White did more than once.  Pee Wee Flutie we all know about and the CFL
    doesn't play main's football.
    
    Didn't Ron Jaworski play at BC?  Was he a local or out-of-state
    recruit?  See I'm trying to help you guys out since I'm from there.
    
    If we start talking lineman, backs, linebackers, and DB's, the gap
    becomes Grand Canyonesque(tm) in AZ's favor.

    Jaws played at Youngstown State in Ohio.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
    Cadzilla,
    
    	I've never heard of "Ruxton".  There is a Ruston though....
    
    Claybone

    
    > did Greg Landry take a team to the Conference Finals at all?  Danny
    > White did more than once.  Pee Wee Flutie we all know about and the CFL
    > doesn't play main's football.
    
    Hell, you could just as easily make the half-assed argument that Flutie 
    "took" the Bears to the conference final, couldn't you?  Oh, never mind
    that Danny White happened to play for the Dallas Cowboys.  In Dallas,
    Danny White is best remembered as the guy who couldn't cut it after
    Roger Staubach went down, and then was the guy who presided over the
    offense when that great franchise went down the tubes.
    
    Mike Kruszcek was also a BC quarterback who became something of a cult
    hero in Pittsburgh when the Steelers went undefeated with him at QB in
    1977 when filling in for the injured Terry Bradshaw.  As Head Clipboard
    Holder in later years, he led the Steelers to two Super Bowl victories.  
    Kruszcek's major claim to fame, however, is that he was never cut from 
    the Arizona Wranglers...
    
    > If we start talking lineman, backs, linebackers, and DB's, the gap
    > becomes Grand Canyonesque(tm) in AZ's favor.
    
    How many of these great Arizona athletes are actually even from the
    state, anyway?  ASU's biggest strength in the major team sports is 
    baseball, and we know most of those players are mercenaries from 
    California and the east, partly because as Mike has told us in the past 
    real Arizonans don't know a baseball from a desert-grown orange and 
    could care even less.  Hence we get instant "Arizona legends" like 
    Reggie Jackson, who enjoyed a couple of years of fun in the sun at ASU 
    on his way from Philadelphia schoolboy superathlete to the baseball HOF.  
    Same with Barry Bonds and many others.  As for football, I'd put 
    homegrown Arizona products in a class somewhere below states like New 
    Jersey and Maryland, well below second-tier states like Washington and 
    Oklahoma and lightyears removed from the talent hotbeds of 
    Florida/California/Texas/Ohio/Pennsylvania.  Basically, the day that
    Michigan needs football help from Arizona is the same day that about 37
    states slide into the ocean.  But no, poor little cold-weather 
    Massachusetts need not be among them... 
    
    glenn
    

    Where did Joe Spagnola come from, what town before Arizona?
    
    REK

    I'd think you'd be surprised at the amount of homegrown talent. 
    Arizona schools typically have a tough time recruiting in California,
    which we all know is a hotbed for talent.

    Exactly what point is trying to be made here?

Mac, the appropriate way to phrase your question is 

Who GIVES a FF.

The Crazy Met

  Gee, Mike. Toss us the names of a few homegrown stars and let's see just
 how surprised we really are.

> had less sex .... either of New York's major league ballparks

you must mean the hotel at Skydome. FYI that is in Toronto, not New York.

HtH

The Crazy Met

    Bob Horner, Bob Brunig, Sean Elliott, Steve Kerr, Darren Woodson, Jim
    Jeffcoat, Marty Barrett (;-)), Floyd Bannister, Bret Wallerstedt, Brian
    Noble, Fat Lever, Alton Lister, Byron Scott, Gerald Riggs, the Weathers
    Bros. (played for the Pats), Danny Villa, Aaron Cox, Ron Brown, Leonard
    Russell, plus the ones already mentioned...

    the Sox also had Greg Allenson and Kevin Romine from ASU

    there's a handful of All-Stars in their respective sports among that
    "parade of stiffs"

    
> That parade of stiffs ain't nothing to brag about.
    
    Asides, Marty Barrett is from Las Vegas, which while maybe close to 
    Arizona in spirit hasn't found its way over the border yet.  See Mike,
    you've been busted already.  How many of those other stiffs are
    *really* from Arizona?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

      Why did you list basketball players?   I thought this LDUC was about
    football players,  and QB's to boot?
    
      Graspin'
    
      Tim

    
    > the Sox also had Greg Allenson and Kevin Romine from ASU
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    New Hampshire boy!
    
    
    glenn
    

    Alright!  Chock one up for ye Ole New England!

    Some I'm not sure about, most of them I am.  

Byron Scott is from L.A., grew up several blocks from the Forum
to be exact, not no scorpion-infested, Goldwater-thinking, Bob
Crane-killing, Limbaugh-loving backwater of a desert.

Ken

    okay, these are the ones I'm sure about.  Real AZ natives.  BTW -
    nobody loves Goldwater here anymore.  He married someone younger than
    Brews' neighbor and she's turned him into a liberal ;-)
    
    Bob Horner, Bob Brunig, Sean Elliott, Steve Kerr, Brian Noble, and Fat
    Lever.  The rest I'd have to double check (other than Scott and
    Romine).  I'm sure there would be tons more if the univeristy would
    publish a sports almanac.

> The climate of Arizona is not conducive to producing great basketball players
>which is why there are no players of note from that state.
    
    You really should be more careful making these uninformed
    generalizations.  What do you know about our climate anyway?  

    
    What about Brad Lohaus?  Mark Alarie?  Couple of All-Stiff natives
    there.
    
    brews

>     web of deceipt and trickery, there ain't a Bob Cousy or a Patrick 
>     Ewing in the bunch. I also know that basketball players tend to either 
    
    Ewing is not a Mass. native.  Nice try though.
    
    What is the average climate of AZ and how does it compare to the ideal
    climate for outdoor basketball games?
    
    What is the black population of AZ and what percentage is it of the
    overall population?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    I thought he was a native, but not born here... no?  He went to HS
    here, right?
    

    In addition, how does the overall percentage of blacks in AZ compare to 
    the overall percentage of blacks in "basketball" states like NC and CA?

    What does all of this have to do with Big 10 sports? 

NC is about 20% black. 

I have no clue about CA or AZ and am generally confused how we got from
QBs in Arizona to the percentage of blacks in NC.

For what it's worth, very few of the Tar Heels are from NC. Chris
probably knows exactly who they are but typically they have 1 or 2.
Sometimes they're the star as with Michael Jordan and Brad Daugherty. The
Heels are hoping that Stackhouse continues this tradition.

Duke fields a truly national, and even mildly international squad. They
just signed the best prep point guard from Alaska.

TTom

    Most of NC's team comes from NYC, doesn't it?
    

    
  >> Ewing is not a Mass. native.  Nice try though.
    
     He's lived here since he was 8. Learned how to play here and
     attended hoops power house Cambridge Ringe and Latin High 
     School. If he had moved to Arizona when he was 8, he'd be the
     world's tallest shoe salesman.

    Brydie's right: Arizona is nowhere's_ville in terms of basketball
    recruiting.  NYC is the mother_of_all recruiting territories. 
    California, Florida, Texas, the southeast, the midwest ('specially
    Chicago) are all big.
    
    New England is usually noteworthy in its lack of producing top quality
    ball players, although Connecticut (New Haven) has turned out its
    share.  The southwest (Arizona, New Mexico) is very baren of top
    talent.
    
    FWIW, North Carolina has never signed a player from either Arizona or
    New England.  As mentioned not too long ago, Steve Bucknall prepped in
    New England, but is a native of England.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    

>     He's lived here since he was 8. Learned how to play here and
    
    I believe he was born in Jamaica.  Which means he's not even American
    by birth (unless that's a U.S. territory).  He's Jamaica's tallest shoe
    saleman.
    
    You neglected to answer my questions.  Answer them or admit that you
    are SPORTS' King of Speculation & Assumption(tm).

>    FWIW, North Carolina has never signed a player from either Arizona or
>    New England.  
    
    ...and a testimony to their intelligence too!  AZ players stay home, go
    to California, Nother Shame(tm) or the Big East.  Those are the 4 most
    popular choices for AZ's high school athletes.

    So since I moved from Detroit to Albany when I was 8, I can't consider
    Albany home?  That makes no sense...
    
    I'm guessing he's enough of an American to be on the Dream Team, that
    he considers himself from here and not a Jamaican.

    >            -< Arizona & New England are both talent-less >-
    
    In basketball and football, generally yes.  Surprisingly, in baseball, 
    the sport where so much is made of the disadvantage that cold-weather 
    New England suffers from, the region does quite well, per capita.  Not 
    even mentioning all the guys that have made brief and non-noteworthy 
    appearances in the big leagues (read: like that list of Arizonans), New 
    England has produced good to great players in the last 20 years or so 
    like Carlton Fisk, Mike Flanagan, Tom Glavine, Tom Seaver, Jeff Bagwell, 
    Bob Tewksbury, Jeff Reardon, etc.  I attribute this once again to
    baseball's status as the most physically non-specialized, equal-opportunity
    sport...
    
    glenn
    

    No you're the one grasping here.  You made accusations and can't back
    them up.  That's pretty damned sorry.  Here I was all this time
    thinking your opinions were actually well informed!  The shock and
    horror of it all.
    
    I've supplied plenty of known natives.  You supply a faux native. 
    What's wrong with this picture?

	With all the LDUC going on in here today, the "Big Muddy" may be 
	comencin' to floodin' again any time now.


	billl

    If you're just yankin' chains, what are you getting so testy about? 

    I'm not testy.  What makes you think that?

      My dad can beat your dad up.
    
      Tim

 Only if he hits my dad with his purse.

      But thats your mom's purse that she gave to him;^)

    
    About 3% of AZ's population is African-American.  Most of that in
    Phoenix & Tucson.
    
    brews
    

    
    Interesting weekend brewing in the former Western Conference.
    
    Wide open race for the Big Ten Title. Two interesting matchups;
    Rejuvenated (mebbe) Michigan St at Ohio St
    Stumbling(mebbe) Michigan at Penn St.
    
    Ohio St has got to be the favorite to capture its first Big Ten title
    in years. However they have to beat a fired up Spartan team fresh from
    a big slap to the reeling Wolverines. The game's in Columbus so the
    Buckeyes, who just passed a stern 20-12 test agin Illinois, should be
    favored. But watch out for the Spartans who clearly outclassed
    Michigan. But the nod to the Buckeyes...
    
    Michigan at Penn St. The Lions will be fired up to bury the Wolverines
    in its first Big Ten big contest. Michigan has two choices: roll over
    and play daid or come out bristling. We'll see how good a coach
    Moeller is. Penn St will be ready. Lions win and prepare for
    the big match in Columbus.
    
    MikeL
    

    Penn State goes down to Michigan in a heartbreaker in their first-ever
    matchup, 21-13.  The game was pretty evenly played, hard fought and
    low-scoring with no turnovers (except for the game-ending hail Mary
    INT) in typical Big Ten fashion as I expected, but PSU did not 
    execute in the clutch.  Nor did the coaching staff execute in the
    clutch, as Joe Paterno suffered yet another relapse to the 1979 Sugar
    Bowl, trying to jam the ball up the gut four straight times from the
    one after it became obvious from the first two plays that there was
    nothing there (Michigan controlled the game defensively inside the 
    line of scrimmage; PSU and Ki-Jana Carter specifically had pretty 
    decent success outside).  Additionally, the special teams were 
    responsible for Michigan scoring two of the TDs they did, one on the 
    punt return for TD and the other off the huge offside blunder on a 
    missed FG attempt.  That last one was a real emotion-shifter as only 
    one play before the penalty I thought that it was PSU that was streaking 
    in for a TD off a clear QB fumble, but unfortunately (or maybe 
    fortunately as I was upset enough as it was ;-) for the home viewers 
    ABC's replay machiine was conveniently busted...
    
    Terrific game by Tyrone Wheatley, a real horse who always seems to have 
    plenty left for the 4th quarter.  Mike H's no-good Mass QB Todd Collins
    had a very solid game too.
    
    Still not sure how Ohio St. was able to win that game against Michigan
    St., except that MSU's blundering in the special teams made PSU's look 
    amateurish by comparison...
    
    glenn
      

    
    It seemed that PSU lost the game when they couldn't score on the four
    plays inside the one.  In retrospect, it didn't cost them, as the
    resulting poor field position for UM led to a TD for PSU, but it seemed
    to change the momentum towards UM.
                                     
    brews

    
    > It seemed that PSU lost the game when they couldn't score on the four
    > plays inside the one.  In retrospect, it didn't cost them, as the
    > resulting poor field position for UM led to a TD for PSU, but it seemed
    > to change the momentum towards UM.
    
    Only a FG actually, which wasn't near enough to offset the damage...
    
    glenn
    

 That Joe Paterno sure does have an inventive mind. A less imaginative
coach might have tried a play-action pass or a bootleg but not Joe - 
four times straight up the gut. If there's any consolation for PSU
fans it's that they could still win the Big 10 (Ohio State looked just
awful) but they never really were serious MNC contenders so this loss 
wasn't critical.

      Say, what about Wisconsin???
    
      Being from there originally and given that they are undefeated,
      I just had to ask.
    
      Actually, they haven't really played anybody yet although Indiana
      I guess is ok.  They were thrashing Purdue 35-0 when their QB was
      hurt (nothing serious).  The QB for Wisconsin was 15-20.
    
      My guess is that Wisconsin should be able to move the ball, but
      I'll bet their defense is not up to the rest of the biggies.
    
      Wisconsin plays at Minnesota then had Ohio State and Michigan (not 
      sure who first).  I figure if they can go undefeated save for a
      split against the Buckeyes and Wolverines, who know???
    
      Anyway, Wisconsin's at least worth mentioning!
    
                                                    Tony

>      Anyway, Wisconsin's at least worth mentioning!
    
  You bet. I don't ever remember the Big 10 having so many contenders in
  one year. Wisconsin, Penn State, Michigan and Ohio State all look good.
  Plus, Michigan State has been tough. It's been so boring watching
  Michigan dominate the conference for the last 10 years or so. Before that,
  it was Ohio State and Michigan with everybody else 20 miles behind.

  The Big 10 is finally living up to it's potential. It's good for college
  football.

	Keith

I think the Big 10 has 6 teams in the latest poll with Michigan St still
getting credit for beating Michang lasted weekend.

TTom

    That's BI1G1 10 to you....
    

    
    If I'm a Michigan State fan, the name "Stoyanovich" would make me ill.
    Vewy ill.... 1 fer 5 in FG's ( the 4 misses were very makeable).
    MSU is still very much in this race. OSU still has Michigan, Wisconsin,
    and Penn St. Michigan has Ohio St and Wisconsin, while MSU has
    Penn St at home, not sure if they play the Badgers.
    
    How 'bout dem Badgers (until at least they play the Wolverines and
    Buckeyes).
    
    So tell me, is Michigan St a "tough" team now that they fared well\
    agin Michigan and OSU? Or are they a semi-patsy since ND crushed them?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    > So tell me, is Michigan St a "tough" team now that they fared well\
    > agin Michigan and OSU? Or are they a semi-patsy since ND crushed them?
    
    They're a tweener, but a legitimate team to be reckoned with.  I think
    they are better than USC...
    
    glenn
    

    
 >> If I'm a Michigan State fan, the name "Stoyanovich" would make me ill.
 >> Vewy ill.... 1 fer 5 in FG's ( the 4 misses were very makeable).

    Yup, I watched the game and just about every one of the misses was from 
    between 30-35 yards. Stoyo should have made them but MSU has to do better 
    than attempt a field goal five times when they get as close as the 25 yard
    line.

 >> So tell me, is Michigan St a "tough" team now that they fared well\
 >> agin Michigan and OSU? Or are they a semi-patsy since ND crushed them?
   
    MSU is a decent team but I think the Michigan and OSU games point more 
    to flaws that those two teams have. OSU gave up 360 yards in the air
    and MSU went into Buckeye territory on every possession. Not the least
    bit impressed with OSU. Fortunately, for the Bucks, neither Michigan or 
    PSU has a balanced attack so they may still have a shot. Don't know about 
    the Badgers though.

    > MSU is a decent team but I think the Michigan and OSU games point more 
    > to flaws that those two teams have. OSU gave up 360 yards in the air
    > and MSU went into Buckeye territory on every possession. Not the least
    > bit impressed with OSU. Fortunately, for the Bucks, neither Michigan or 
    > PSU has a balanced attack so they may still have a shot. Don't know about 
    > the Badgers though.
    
    Sure, but don't forget that this is still college football that we're
    talking about.  Right now there's Florida State and Notre Dame and then
    everybody else.  Even ND's offense may be a little run-heavy (not that
    they can't win with that approach, especially in the colder weather).
    Alabama's offense isn't balanced.  Nebraska's offense isn't balanced.
    Florida's may be but they have absolutely no defense to speak of.  So 
    while I agree that Ohio St. is not in the class of the Big Two and not
    MNC-caliber, I still think they're a pretty darn good football team, 
    worthy of a Top-5 ranking (sure, they'll probably lose one conference
    game), and that the Big Ten truly is a strong conference this year.
     
    glenn
    

> and OSU won't *finish* in the top five with that porous pass

not necessarily. they could (unlikely) win all their remaining games; so a 
loss in the Rose Bowl probably would not push them that far down in the polls.

The Crazy Met

    Waitaminute.  The Big-10 was pretty pathetic last year but they *did*
    win the Rose Bowl, and this year's Michigan team is not much worse than 
    that one (they lost to Notre Dame, but they were hardly pimp-slapped).  
    In other non-con games Ohio St manhandled Washington earlier this year,
    and Penn State beat USC (a game that wasn't as close  as the final score, 
    even though PSU did almost choke the game away).  Indiana hammered 
    Kentucky (a pretty decent team this year that only lost to Florida, 
    24-20).  Michigan St. clobbered Kansas.  A mediocre Illinois lost to 
    probable Pac-10 champ Arizona, 16-14.  Even lowly Northwestern acquitted 
    itself quite well in its games against Boston College and Notre Dame (as 
    did Purdue).  Wisconsin is undefeated but admittedly has topped out with
    Iowa St. in non-conference play (their biggest win has still only come
    against Indiana).
    
    Taken individually these aren't major accomplishments, but together, they 
    show that even the also-rans of the Big Ten are more than holding their 
    own when stacked up against like teams from other conferences (especially 
    their Rose Bowl rivals from the Pac-10).  We'll see how it plays out,
    but so far the Big Ten is not overrated when measured against other
    conferences, on like terms...
    
    glenn
    

Big 10 is certaily better than the PAC10 this year. PAC 10 teams are going
through some jekyll and hyde convolutions with Cal, Stanfuud, Washington, WSU,
and UCLA all being respectable but nobody out in the clear with Arizona who
hasn't shown a lot this year other than a defense....

OSU or Michigan would win the Rose this year. Mich State would be a close
game....

It'll be moot anyways because I  still think that the only team that is playing
well week in and out is FSU and it'll take a major underachievement on thier
part not to winn all their remaining regular season games....

Metz

ND in ND is a tough game; especially for #1 ranked teams.

The Crazy Met

        
    All I'm asking is that you apply the same standard to the other 
    conferences.  In the SEC and ACC you've still got a lot of sham 
    scheduling going on with even the occasional 1-AA game not being below 
    these schools.  The non-con schedules of Alabama, Tennessee, Florida 
    and Auburn (your current SEC powers) are all absolute embarrassments,
    with teams like Tulane, Arkansas St., Louisiana Tech, SW Louisiana 
    and even Samford serving as the usual suspects again this year.  The 
    Big Ten games I listed, even where the middling teams lost reasonably 
    tough games, were almost Herculean challenges by comparison... 
     
    I'm not saying that this is anything to be tremendously proud of, but
    again, this criticism of the Big-10 sounds like the JD argument of the
    good ol' days, which when broken down translates to "all conferences
    are overrated".  Maybe that's the case when you expect to favorably 
    compare an entire conference against the top 10 teams in the country, 
    but especially these days when all good teams except Notre Dame are 
    now in a conference, it doesn't have a whole lot of meaning.  There are 
    106 teams in Division 1-A and most of them are pathetic compared to the
    teams that we generally care about.
    
    glenn
     

I agree witcha, Glenn.

Specifically, one of the problems I've been complaining about with ACC
football is that they cry for respect and schedule 2A teams. NC State
plays Marshall, No Carolina and Virginia both play Ohio U., Clemson
plays E. Tenn. St and UNLV, etc., etc.

Then you look at the other outta conference games and it's Texas wannabes
Tech and El Paso along with Tulane and Navy.

TTom

    > Marshall
    
    Uh, er, um, ..... didn't the WufPack come precariously close to
    *losing* to these guys on Saturday?!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

re: .239

that should tell you something about the WufPack not the other way around.

HtH,

The Crazy Met

Right you are Chris. The pack scored late to win 24-17. Tweren't nothing
compared to the 91 game. State won that one 15-14 with a mighty assist
from the timer, the refs and even the other coach who was so expressive
in his disgust for the timer and the refs that he gave State a last
chance after time shoulda expired.

State does have a way with the late action. Earlier in the loss to
Clemson (20-14) they ran outta time marching toward the end zone and
then they beat Texas Tech 36-34, scoring on the last play after time had
run out.

TTom

    My point is that some of these Division I-AA teams ain't exactly
    chopped liver.  Georgia Southern is typically *very* strong, even
    though Miami pretty much shellacked 'em earlier this year.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

ha! comparing Miami to any ACC team other than Fl. St. is absurd!

The Crazy Met

    No the point is that no Div 1A school should be scheduling them
    period. Are they put on the schedule because they might offer
    a "tough" match?? You and I know the answer. Creampuff city.
    Jest look at FSU's past schedule that TTom provided.
    Rife with puffs.
    
    MikeL
    (yeah, yeah, I already know about Navy)
    

    
    Oh, yeah, and that Furman is always a battle, too.  Right.  But sure,
    some of these teams might be better than UTEP, which almost knocked off
    highly-rated North Carolina...
    
    glenn
    

Marshall is the defending 2A champ.

I can understand to some extent local schools scheduling some of the
Southern Conference teams. Way back when it was a major conference and
there is a tradition of some of the ACC-SC rivalries. In fact, State and
the Heels used to play in a basketball thing wherein they each played
Furman and The Citadel.

But the point has been made that you cain't schedule these teams any more
and try to be nationally respected.

With 8 conference games, give everyone 1 weak sister and make them play
somobodies for the rest of the games. And all of em should be 1A.

TTom

    re: glenn
    
    Saying that UTEP "almost knocked off" UNC is a stretch.  Carolina was
    *way* ahead in this one until The Miners started throwing meaningless
    points on the board late.
    
    BTW, UTEP just fired their coach this week.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

That's not much of a stretch. UTEP turned it over deep in the Heels'
territory late in the game. They were marching and had they scored they
woulda been ahead, hardly meaningles points. 

And where did this Texas connection come from?

TTom

    
    > Saying that UTEP "almost knocked off" UNC is a stretch.  Carolina was
    > *way* ahead in this one until The Miners started throwing meaningless
    > points on the board late.
    
    Haw haw haw... those "meaningless points" put UTEP an onside kick
    recovery and one more score away from winning the game, didn't they?
    What's the required spread in a UNC game before it becomes meaningful?
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
         Oh please oh football god in the sky please make NC football a
    weak sister again so we aint gotta here the excuses in football season
    too!
    
    Chappy
    

    I think Chrisp is lost in the ozone. UTEP was ahead by at least
    3 touchdowns at one point over UNC. UNC came from way back, built
    a lead, and then almost lost it.
    
    BTW - you heard it here first...
    
    Glenn - get ready to watch that "mediocre" Illinois team shut down
    Michigan this weekend. The Illini came into the Iowa game with the
    10th best defense against the run nationally and gave up only 21 yds
    to Iower.
    
    So far, the Illini are 2-4
    The B10 officially apologized for bad calls on 2 of AZ TD's (both
    fumble recoveries returned >50 yds) in the 16-14 loss
    
    Then they officially apologized for a bad call taking a TD away from
    Illinois on a fumble recovery in the Oregon game. The refs ruled the 
    Oregon player down, gave back the ball to Oregon, and Oregon scored the
    winning TD (13-7) on that drive.
    
    Then the winning TD against OSU was called back (rightly so), but an
    interception was disallowed on the OSU 25, and the D only gave up 6
    points to #5 OSU.
    
    A series of bad breaks away from 5-1. Now, the offense is back in gear
    (49 points vs Iowa).
    
    Pred - Illini 12, UM 10.
    
    Murph (glasses very deeply tinted)
    

    
    > Then the winning TD against OSU was called back (rightly so), but an
    > interception was disallowed on the OSU 25, and the D only gave up 6
    > points to #5 OSU.
    
    I saw some of that game.  Illegal procedure, six men on the line,
    right?  That was a terrific go-ahead TD pass play called back very 
    late in the game, and Ohio State was sweating profusely.  Still, Butler 
    B'y'n'o't'e (the Apostrophe Police's biggest nightmare, aka "The
    Fastest Man in College Football") did not play.  Come to think of it, 
    he didn't play against Michigan St, either, did he?  That's a big 
    weapon missing for the Buckeyes...
    
    Illinois *is* supposed to have a terrific D, though.  Dick Vermeil was
    also going on about a possible upset of Michigan.  We'll see.  Hey, Iowa
    really stinks this year, though, huh?  They usually manage at least to
    be respectable.
    
    The Big-10 officials have long been regarded as the worst in the
    country, but it's pretty sad that they're now giving games away to
    visiting Pac-10 teams, no less.  They ought to take a lesson from 
    the Big East traveling road crews... ;-)
    
    glenn
      
               

    Ineligible man downfield - QB showed run.
    
    Street and Smith's is out. The IMPORTANT numbers...
    
    #4  Minnehaha
    #5  Illinois
    #10 Fichigan
    #14 Cheesehead U
    
    Deon Thomas - 2nd team All American
    
    Don't quite get the #4 ranking for the Gophers. They looked pretty good
    in the NIT's last year, but hey...
    
    Murph
    

    Go-Go Gophers!
    
    #4 is probably a bit high, but they should be a pretty decent team this
    year.
    
    
    Spud

    Mission accomplished. I expect Michigan to get revenge
    as always.
    
    1989 - Beat Illinois in game for Rose Bowl.
    1990 - Beat Illinois in game for Rose Bowl.
    1991 - Going into last week of season, only way for Illinois to
    go to Rose Bowl is
    1) Illinois beats NW - happens
    2) Iowa loses to Minn - happens
    3) UM and OSU TIE. Michigan breaks 13-13 tie on last play of game.
    1992 - Illinois takes 3 point lead vs. Michigan with 1 min to
    go. Moeller wimps out and goes for tie on 4th and 2 at the 15, denying
    Illini first win in AA since 1966.
    
    1993 - Prediction - Illinois wins out, needs two losses by OSU for
    Roses. PSU beats OSU, UM leads until late in the 4th on last day of
    season and blows it, sending Bucks to Pasadena.
    
    Anyway - it sure was nice to beat Michigan. Illini were very lucky in
    the end, but Michigan caught more than their share of breaks.
    
    On to PSU... (hopefully the team won't look past NW, since they blew
    a 20 point 4th quarter lead against the Cats last homecoming)
    
    Murph
    

      Well, I was hopeful of something that I figured was a long
      shot and it got shattered this past Saturday evening.
    
      Having grown up in Wisconsin, I have started to get excited
      about this year's Badgers team.  Just this past week I read
      about them in a real good SI article where they even had the
      audacity to talk about the Roses.  On top of that, I have a
      class in Chicago and after it I am spending the weekend in
      Milwaukee.  My aunt said my cousin was hoping I could visit
      her in Madison (where she lives) that Saturday which happens
      to be the day OSU is in town.
    
      So here I was thinking..."If Wisconsin can take Minnesota and
      Michigan and (I know its a long shot) if they can take Ohio
      State, THE PLACE WILL BE BEDLAM AND I'LL BE THERE!!!!"
    
      What a bummer...Minnesota 28, Wisconsin 21.  Bevell threw 5
      interceptions.  
    
      Oh well...it was a long shot anyway.
    
      I'm still hopeful anyway!
    
                                                      Tony

    re .-1:   SI curse again; amazing record for that mag (which has gone
    downhill)
    
    re .256 - In case anyone missed it.  Michigan had the ball and Illinois
    didn't have timeouts necessary to get it back and W's fumbled. 
    Illinois connected on pass in end zone as qb was being tackled on what
    would have been there last play.
    
    I almost missed it but stayed because I recalled Philly losing to
    Giants (or vv) on similar situation a few years back.

SI jinx is for teams/players that are on the cover, not any rinky
dink story.

The Crazy Met

      I'm just wondering if anyone can tell me about the Illinois 
      basketball team that lost to the championship Michigan team.
      That was perhaps my favorite basketball team of all time.  If
      I remember correctly, that team had a starting five that ranged
      in height from 6'4" to 6'6".  They all seemed clones of each
      other.  What a cool team!
    
      (They really should have beaten Michigan by the way.)  When they
      lost to Michigan, was that to get to the Final Four or was that
      a final four game.
    
      Anyway, I'm curious about that team like who the starting five was,
      etc.  I think three of the starters were Kendall Gill, Nick Anderson,
      and Marcus Liberty.
    
                                                    Tony

    Steve Bardo was the poont guard on that team.
    
    NAZZ

    I was there.
    31-5 - All four regular season losses with Gill out.
    
    G - Kendall Gill   6-5
    G - Stephen Bardo  6-4
    F - Kenny Battle (To Seattle)  6-6
    F - Nick "The Dick" Anderson   6-5
    "C" - Lowell Hamilton  "6-7"
    
    6th Marcus Liberty
    
    Larry Smith, PJ Bowman. Andy Kaufmann played about 10 games before a
    blod clot sidelined him for the rest of the year.
    
    Lost National Semi 83-81 When Nick didn't block out Sean Higgins.
    Finished 2nd in Big 10 behind IU despite sweeping IU, winning in
    Bloomington on a Nick 35 footer with no time left.
    
    Murph
    Oskee Wow Wow - beat NW
    

    Illini squeak past NW as predicted - no blowout.
    OSU looks very tough.  If they win the rest, it will be too
    bad they don't get a shot at FSU. I think they are much better than
    ND. Only hole is at QB, and Hoying is improving.
    Wisco looks OK, I think Michigan, with the injuries isn't that
    good a team, hopefully they can put the hurt on OSU anyway.
    Would love to see a huge FIB/Cheesehead game on ABC.
    Michigan has IU and OSU left, must win one to go ANYWHERE.
    Would REALLY love to see UM staying home - when did that last
    happen?
    
    Murph
    
    

    UM is 4-4, they would nee to win 2 to go anywhere if that is all
    they have left.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Michigan's remaining schedule is:
    
    Nov 6 	Purdue
    Nov 13 	at Minnesota
    Nov 20 	Ohio State
    
    Sid

    Yeah - I figured out later they don't play Indy, Penn State does.
    Assuming they would win the Purdue game, they need to win one of the
    other two. At 6-5 they would probably play Louisville. I am hoping for
    a big Minn upset to set up a do or die game for UM vs. OSU. Need some
    Bucks losses soon. PSU very disappointing. I think Illinois can put the
    hurt on them with their lousy passing game.
    
    Murph
    

      Can Wisconsin beat Ohio State?
    
      I figure the Buckeyes will be 9 to 12 point favorites.
    
      I heard Wisconsin played absolutely lousy against Minnesota.
      Oh to have that game back!
    
                                            ON WISCONSIN!,
    
                                            Tony

    OSU is listed as a 6 point favorite

    Any chance Michigan and Syracuse can meet in a bowl game?
    

    Any chance either can make a bowl game?
    
    Lovin it...
    
    Murph

      I heard that Wisconsin brought in Rudy (of Notre Dame and recent
      movie fame) to inspire the team for its upcoming game against
      Ohio State.  Then again for all I know some guys at work were
      just making it up!
    
      Actually, I don't think anyone in the Big 10 can beat UCLA.  That
      big receiver spells too much trouble.
    
                                                 ON WISCONSIN!,
    
                                                 Tony

    -1 HAHAHA,
    Dat's right up Rudy's alley so ah hear. He's off doing inspirational
    speeches to big companies, etc. kinda like Mike "America's Guest"
    Eruzione did/still does after the 80 Olympics( has it ben that long?).
    
    Rudy is up for the next challenge, he's selling his "ND shrine" condo
    in South Bend and on the rubber chicken circuit. Holtz better watch
    out!!
    
    Just an aside.. when Rudy was introduced to the ND crowd before
    the USC game, there were quite a few boos. Seems like the student
    newsie and some of the students thought Rudy done sold himself to
    the devil.
    
    Maybe's he's on the Amtrak to Madison.  GO BADGERS!!
    
    MikeL
    

> Seems like the student newsie and some of the students
> thought Rudy done sold himself to the devil.

what's the problem Holtz does this every weekend.

The Crazy Met

    Illinois pulls another monster comeback with a 90 yard drive in 58
    seconds with no timeouts to beat the Gophers. The win was despite 
    5 ints by JJ.
    Wisconsin and OSU tie, OSU blocks a field goal with 7 seconds left. I
    think Alvarez used poor clock management, they could have had time to
    put it in the end zone. But that is some serious second guessing. UW
    looks very strong, as do the Bucks.
    Penn State deals IU a big blow by beating them 38-31. 
    The above three results continue the dream scenario that could send
    Illinois to Pasadena after an 0-3 start. 
    When UM puts the hurt on Cooper, and if the Illini can beat up JoePa
    this week (I'll be there to guarantee it), the UW/UI winner gets the
    Roses. 
    
    Most important factor is to win at least one game to lock up a bowl.
    If they only win one, they would probably end up getting to crush the
    3rd place ACC team in the HOF bowl. Winning both (without an OSU loss)
    would send them to Orlando to get whitewashed by Bama or Tennesee.
    
    Oskee wow wow.
    Murph

    > and if the Illini can beat up JoePa
    > this week (I'll be there to guarantee it),
    
    Have fun in (Not So) Happy Valley, Murph.  Beautiful setting to watch
    football on a crisp autumn Saturday afternoon.  I think Illinois has
    got a good shot to win the game as PSU is demoralized and reeling (I
    thought Indiana might beat them-- they almost did-- and a game against
    Illinois won't be any different).
                                                      
    That was a huge play by Ohio St. to block that tying field goal in the
    Wisconsin game.  The snap was very slightly high, but the hold and kick 
    were clean.  A very big, season-saving athletic play to get a hand on
    that ball.  While Barry Alvarez made a tough decision to go ahead with
    the FG (a good one, I thought, because he had timeouts and downs to try
    again had the attempt been aborted), John Cooper is still generally
    without a clue.  I think he must have blitzed on every play in that
    last drive, which led to nothing but big runs off traps and draws by 
    the Wisconsin kid Moss and a couple other big gainers on passes.  Plus,
    he stuck with Bobby Hoying way too long.  Hoying's problem wasn't that
    he was making bad decisions in throwing into coverage; hell, he had
    guys breaking wide open for six but was flat underthrowing them by 5
    yards...
    
    glenn
       

      What a tough tie for a Wisconsin fan.  After considering 
      Wisconsin's complete domination of the line of scrimmage 
      whenever they had the ball in the second half, it is hard
      to believe they only scored one touchdown.  They just ran
      the ball right down Ohio State's throat.
    
      One thing I gotta say though.  I was never comfortable whenever
      the Buckeyes passed.  The QB was consistently getting too
      much time.  One other thought though is the bummer that the
      starting corner got hurt.  I think the Buckeyes kept picking
      on the reserve.
    
      One 2nd half drive ended on a fumbled snap.  One on a pass thrown
      too short.  Another on a ball thrown too hard which was deflected
      into an Ohio State's players hands.  And another drive ended when
      the field goal was blocked.
    
      I too did not understand the use of the clock.  Sure, maybe you
      might want to save one timeout.  BUT TWO???  Man, they should have
      run at least one more play.
    
      The blocked field goal was a fine athletic play.  At least it wasn't
      a case of Wisconsin executing poorly.  Should someone have been
      assigned to block him though?  I don't think so.
    
      Well, as Keith Jackson said, "This is perhaps the single biggest
      play in Wisconsin football history."  And there it was...a blocked
      field goal.  What a total bummer.
    
      So, what's the Rose Bowl picture like?  If OSU loses one game and
      if the Badgers win the final two and both are tied at 9-1-1...who
      goes???  I hope the Badgers!
    
      One last thing.  Does anyone know the Badger's starting roster?
      I'd love to see it if anyone knows it.  How many offensive lineman
      are returning?  How about Moss, Montgomery, Deramus and Bevell?  I'd
      really appreciate it if anyone knows the starting roster and what
      year they are.
    
                                                        Tony

    
     Don't even get me started on that, Mac!

    re: .278
    
      I am a Badger fan, but I'm not sure it would be a good game.
      It often seems that the Pac 10 has a more pro styled offense
      than the Big 10 teams though the Big 10 has been getting more
      capable with the pass.
    
      Its just the Stokes guy for UCLA.  Wisconsin does not seem to
      cover that tightly and if UCLA had any time at all, I think Stokes
      would absolutely anihilate them.  But, then again, this guy is
      just one awesome receiver.  Look how much they scored on Arizona.
      
      Nothing against UCLA, I just think a lot of that Stokes guy.  He's
      gotta go top 3 to 5 in the draft.

      Correction: nothing against Wisconsin I mean.

                                                                 
>    Atheletic play?  The guy came through untouched.  Anybody could block a
>    field goal if they aren't blocked.
    
    He still had to get a perfectly timed break off the snap, extend his
    body and have his hands precisely in the path of the ball.  You see
    guys come in unblocked like that all the time and on short kicks which 
    are executed quickly it's still usually a split-second too late or the 
    guy flat misses the ball.  It's all timing with some luck but it's not
    easy...  
    
    glenn
    

re: top 5

OSU is not top 5, but then again when BYU won the MNC by going 13-0 they
were likely 4 or 5 in the country. The polls love unbeaten/untied teams -
well usually (WVU was #10).

What teams are now in the top 5??

The Crazy Met

    Well, amongst other supposed Top 5 teams, Alabama from the mighty SEC
    lost to putrid LSU (at home!) and Nebraska almost did to an opponent
    far inferior to Wisconsin.  So, once again, if we limit Top 5 teams to
    only those that have no blemishes on their record and never look 
    bad in victory against inferior opponents, we have only FSU and ND (and
    maybe throw in Miami if you make an exception for teams that were only
    beat by those two).  For everyone else you can legitimately say
    something like "I saw them in Week X against Team Y and that's no 
    Top 5 team".  The voters still have to select five each and every
    week...
    
    glenn
    

  >> What teams are now in the top 5??

      1) Florida St.
      2) ND
      3) Miami
      4) Nebraska
      5) OSU
      6) Tennessee
      7) Auburn
      8) Florida
      9) WVU
     10) UCLA

So Miami did get to #3. Helllooooo Fiesta Bowl unless WVU pulls an upset.

Now if ND beat FSU, would Miami move ahead of FSU even though they lost
to FSU - could be interesting. 

The Crazy Met

   >> For everyone else you can legitimately say something like "I saw 
   >> them in Week X against Team Y and that's no Top 5 team".  The voters 
   >> still have to select five each and every week...
    
      OSU didn't just not look like a top 5 team. They were pushed around 
      all day. Wisconsin took away Harris and By'no'te on offense and ran 
      the ball right at Big Daddy and his boys on defense and OSU was
      powerless to stop it. They were lucky to have gotten some really
      big breaks this weekend but then again they lead the Big 10 in 
      giveaway/takeaway so breaks are nothing new to that team. First
      they give up 360 yards in the air and escape against MSU and now
      this. Their luck is bound to run out and they'll fall to somewhere
      between #10 and #15 where they belong.

    
    So if Ohio State is a team that ultimately does not belong in the 
    Top 10, Tommy, which are your ten teams that do?  West Virginia?  
    Auburn, of the "let's do it in a big way with Samford and New Mexico 
    St" schedule?  But those team are already there, so I guess we'll 
    have to dip down even further below and pull up teams like Texas A&M, 
    Arizona, and North Carolina to fill out the ranks.  I'm having a very 
    hard time coming up with these truly deserving Top 10 teams that must 
    exclude all Big-10 teams including a still 8-0-1 Ohio State.
    
    glenn
     
                                         

    1. Florida State
    2. Notre Dame
    3. Tennessee
    4. Miami
    5. UCLA
    6. West Virginia
    7. Auburn
    8. Nebraska
    9. Florida
   10. Texas A&M
    

Ohio St belongs in the Top 10, maybe the Top 5.

Florida St and Notre Dame are at the top. Miami is moving back up there.
Nebraska despite a scare is still undefeated. Auburn has beaten Florida
but I wanna see them beat Alabama before they get the Top 5 nod.

Ohio St has played it's schedule without a loss. If'n they beat Michigan,
they certainly won't fall in the ratings. But you gotta look to the Rose
Bowl to see what they do against a very hot UCLA team, who has got to be
the best team in the country with 2 losses.

TTom

  Pretty funny during the OSU-Wisconsin game when Wisconsin's safety went
down and out with fractured ribs. Keith Jackson says, "It looks like [I
forget his name} is out of the game. Swanny?" Swann pipes in,"Keith, 
[I forget his name] is out for the game."

    
> Ohio St has played it's schedule without a loss. If'n they beat Michigan,
> they certainly won't fall in the ratings. But you gotta look to the Rose
> Bowl to see what they do against a very hot UCLA team, who has got to be
> the best team in the country with 2 losses.
    
    No doubt.  The sad thing of it is that I can now see that UCLA team (the
    only thing the Pac-10's got going for it this year, and unquestionably
    a quality team) beating Ohio St. in a close game in the Rose Bowl and 
    having many reach the false conclusion that Big-10 football in 1993 was 
    a farce, when nothing could be further from the truth.  This has been a
    very hard-fought, high-caliber Big-10 season, coming off a poor season
    in 1992.  The Big-10 teams proved that in their out-of-conference games
    and they're continuing to prove it in-conference, with many close games
    involving even teams that have not traditionally done well.  A team
    like Wisconsin under Barry Alvarez' tutelege (already one of the best 
    coaches in the business) is no fluke.
    
    As for Ohio St. looking bad, the previous week when the prediction (not
    mine) was that a mediocre Penn St. team would give them trouble and 
    probably beat them, afterwards I didn't hear any credit doled out when 
    the Buckeyes just absolutely up-and-down-the-field thrashed the living 
    daylights out of the Lions.  And that's how it goes week-to-week when
    you're playing in such a tough conference as the Big-10 this year,
    especially when you're on the road...  
    
    glenn
      

Barry Alvarez should get the Coach of the Year. Not just for the Big10
but for the whole thang. About the only one close would be Terry Donahue
for his efforts at reviving UCLA after a couple of losses.

I don't know who was picking what but the only thing that Penn St had
going for it against Ohio St was the Buckeyes propensity for folding. 

As for the Big10, Wisconsin, Indiana, Penn St, and possibly Michigan St
should all be playing in the post season.

Iowa and Michigan should get awards for underachievment. Purdue continues
to give Northwestern a run for the basement and, unlike Northwestern
actually beating someone (BC), the Boilermakers have shown that they're
simply not competive in any league.

TTom

    >> many reach the false conclusion that Big-10 football in 1993 was 
    >> a farce, when nothing could be further from the truth.  This has 
    >> been a very hard-fought, high-caliber Big-10 season, coming off a 
    >> poor season  in 1992.  

       We'll see how good the Big 10 is when they go bowling. My guess is 
       "not very". And I don't think we'll see the six teams out of the 
        Big 10 in bowls that you predicted.
 
    >> The Big-10 teams proved that in their out-of-conference games

       Maybe one significant win in the bunch.
    
    >>  As for Ohio St. looking bad, the previous week when the prediction 
    >> (not mine) was that a mediocre Penn St. team 

       So they whupped a mediocre PSU team. PSU's offense is even worse than
       I had imagined.
      

                             
> And I don't think we'll see the six teams out of the Big 10 in bowls that 
>    you predicted.
 
    I think it's still a fair possibility, and that five teams is a lock.
    No complaining when Michigan/Michigan St/Illinois get big-school 
    preferential treatment... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

I really think that UCLA is the one beatingup on inferior competition not OSU.
The PAC 10 is having a very down year and I personally think the UCLA is
looking better than they are beating up on some relatively weak PAC 10
competition...

I still think that OSu will beat UCLA in the rose bowl. I do wish that the
bowls were closer to the end of the regular season because it gives the
coordinators 3-4 weeks to prepare for the game.

Metz

  re: .294
    
    1. Florida State - ACC
    2. Notre Dame - Ind
    3. Tennessee - SEC
    4. Miami - Big East
    5. UCLA - Pac 10
    6. West Virginia - Big East
    7. Auburn - SEC
    8. Nebraska - Big 8
    9. Florida - SEC
   10. Texas A&M - SWC
    
   Supposing this is an accurate estimate of the teams, I would 
   conclude that the SEC is far and away the best Conference
   (which it is), but even with these ratings I might still hold
   the Big 10 up as a very strong conference.  They could hold
   6 of the next 10 or 12 (OSU, Wisconsin, Illinois, Penn State, Indiana,
   Mich State) and that would leave the Big 10 as a Conference with
   no super teams but a wealth of very good teams.

    > They could hold 6 of the next 10 or 12 (OSU, Wisconsin, Illinois, 
    > Penn State, Indiana, Mich State) and that would leave the Big 10 
    > as a Conference with no super teams but a wealth of very good teams. 
    
    Yep, and it's only even that modest if you accept the proposition that 
    West Virginia, Auburn, and Texas A&M are better than *all* of the teams
    in the Big-10 (why stop at two Big East teams-- why not Boston College
    too, before they get stomped by ND and WVU gets their first and only
    tests of the season against Miami and BC?).  I guess we should expect 
    the Big-10 to go 0-5 or 0-6 in the bowls...
    
    glenn
      

    
     I should add that that is my assessment of the teams right here right
    now. Naturally, the order will change after some of these teams face
    off on New Year's Day. But in my estimation there is not a Big Ten
    team that is worthy of top ten status.

    I fully expect the B10 to win at least 3, if not 4 of the top bowls
    they attend
    
    Rose - I expect they win this one, but passing of UCLA could make it
    tough
    
    Citrus - B10 loses to Tenn or Fla, could beat Alabama
    
    Holiday - Will beat Wyoming
    
    Hall of Fame - Will beat UNC/NCSt/Clempson
    
    Liberty - 'Ville is overrated.
    
    But I could be wrong, it has happened before...
    
    Murph

 >> West Virginia, Auburn, and Texas A&M are better than *all* of the teams
 >> in the Big-10 (why stop at two Big East teams-- why not Boston College
 >> too, 

    This isn't about propping up or tearing down a conference. It's one man's 
    opinion on who the top ten teams really are. Sorry, but ain't no Big 10 
    teams in there, IMO. All I hear from Big 10 backers is their record
    against suspect out of conference opponents. Not a whole lot to choose
    from. Nowadays, if you're going to rank teams, you can only go on what
    you've seen because college football is much like the heavyweight ranks
    in that hardly any of the big boys fight each other. But from what I've 
    seen OSU ain't in my top ten


    BTW - wouldn't it be a hoot if Illinois at 7-4, with three out of
          conference losses, is the Big 10 rep at the Rose Bowl.

    Say it ain't so!!!!!
    
    PSU's first year in the Big 10(11) and Waugamain is its main
    apologist in here!! 8^)))'s
    
    Fer shame glenn, are you taking on the recently vacated
    BigTenglenn moniker from mssrT??
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    Tommy how can you have UCLA 5 and Nebraska 8.  The Huskers beat them
    already.  Please take off the UCLA shaded glasses..........
    
    Jimbo

    
    > Nowadays, if you're going to rank teams, you can only go on what
    > you've seen because college football is much like the heavyweight ranks
    > in that hardly any of the big boys fight each other. But from what I've 
    > seen OSU ain't in my top ten
      
    Hey, that's fine, but I still can't fathom at all what you might have
    seen from West Virginia in their games against nobody in particular
    that would rate them #6 (while Ohio State is completely out of the 
    running at 8-0-1 including 3-0-1 against ranked teams), or from Texas
    A&M which was blown out in its only game against a ranked opponent, and 
    I know you haven't seen Auburn, even in their impressive non-con efforts 
    against Samford, So. Miss and New Mexico St. (granted, at least as
    opposed to the other two Auburn has that one huge badge of honor in 
    taking down Florida at home, but other than that they've appropriately 
    scheduled as if they're on probation and going nowhere).   But, like you 
    say, these are just individual opinions and we'll see how well they hold 
    up...
    
    glenn
     

  >> Tommy how can you have UCLA 5 and Nebraska 8.  The Huskers beat them
  >> already.  Please take off the UCLA shaded glasses..........
    
     Sorry Jimbo, but I call them like I see them and right now I have a 
     red hot UCLA ranked ahead of that Nebraska team that just barely escaped 
     with its life against Kansas. But your and Glenn's protests have been 
     duly noted.

    Heard last night that Indiana is to sign Charlie Miller today out of
    Miami.  I believe Miller is 6'7.  Anyone have any information on him?
    They also will sign Andre Patterson today.  Patterson is ranked number
    one in the country by most hoops experts.
    
    Bobby's put together two strong recruiting efforts back-to-back.
    
     - Bob Roper

    IU supposedly signed a Big-Time player off the East Coast yesterday. 
    Can anyone confirm this?  Recruiting experts are saying this is one of
    the best recruiting classes in the nation.  To the best of my
    knowledge, IU has signed 4 players.
    
    	Andre Patterson
    	Charlie Miller
    	A guard out of Louisiana
    	Big-Man off East Coast
    
    Any info on names, etc., appreciated.
    
    - Bob

      What do you think...does Indiana stand a chance against Ohio
      State in Columbus?  The Buckeyes are 14 point favorites.
    
      Go Hoosiers!
    
      By the way...what is a buckeye?  I thought I heard it was some kind
      of a nut with a black dot on it!  Someone at work told me its a 
      type of bird.
    
                                                        Tony

    Its a form of Pea....
    
    REK

Tony,

I kinda like the Hoosiers chances. At least they should keep it close.

Indiana is playing well and the Buckeyes, whatever the hail they are,
might just be looking ahead to Michigan. Cooper still hasn't beaten 'em.

Maybe Ohio St will believe the point spread and prepare accordingly. 

TTom

A buckeye is a North American tree, with erect flower clusters and 
glossy brown nuts.

hth,
'Saw

    
    Yabbut I thought a Buckeye was the thing that gets poked out by the
    antlers!
    
    Usually found floating in soup by Indiana Jones, I recall.
    
    I remain,
    suggesting they were safety glasses else they go blind
    Kev
    

...sounds exciting 'saw...
actually it's a horse chestnut, as in:
the osu horse chestnuts are installed as 14 point faves
over the hoosiers.
those are s'posed to be buckeyes added to their helmets 
for big plays but they always looked like cotton balls to me.
dr.a

Well, I was just telling you what my research material said.

Personally, it sounded better when it talked about ERECT flower clusters
and glossy brown NUTS.


'Saw

    Need a big win by the Loosiers. Would hate to have to root
    for Michigan to set up the Rose Bowl.
    
    Murph
    

	Actually a buckeye is just a useless nut.


	billl (a true blue PITT fan)

>	Actually a buckeye is just a useless nut.
>
>
>	billl (a true blue PITT fan)


Kind like John Bobbit had there for a while, eh?  A couple o' useless
nuts?


'Saw

      One other question...
    
      What determines who goes to the Rose Bowl should there be a 
      tie?
    
      Assuming Wisconsin wins their two remaining games (GO WISCONSIN)
      and the Buckeyes lose 1.  They both end up 9-1-1 (I think).
    
      I see two scenarios.
    
      One is that the team which last went to the Rose Bowl the longest
      ago gets the bid.  (That would be Wisconsin.)
    
      Two is that the team considered the better team (perhaps ranking)
      gets the bid.
    
      Does anyone know what decides it?
    
                                                      Tony

    yeah the AD of the Big Ten decide.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

As I understand it, if'n it's a tie, the one who has gone to the Rose
Bowl most recently stays home. In this scenario of Wisconsin and Ohio St
tying, Wisconsin goes.

Some leagues don't look at head-to-head results, just the record. I don't
know if that's what the Big 10 does or not.

The screwiest conference used to be the SEC where a committee voted on
who went to the Sugar Bowl and weren't really required to name the first
place team. Something about "in the interest of the money". Thankfully,
they now have a game that they play to decide it all.

TTom

    So who's still alive for the Granddaddy??
    
    Wisconsin, OSU fer sure. Illinois? MSU? IU??
    
    Inquiring mimes
    
    MikeL
    

    Rose Bowl Tiebreaker
    1) Head to Head
    2) Overall Record
    3) Least recent appearance.
    
    If 3 or more teams are tied, they use the first tiebreaker that
    eliminates any one, and then go back to the top
    
    OSU 5-0-1
    Ill 5-1
    UW  4-1-1
    PSU 3-2
    IU  3-2
    MSU 3-2
    
    Realistically, this is between OSU, Illinios, and Wisconsin
    OSU - Indiana, @UM
    Illinois - @PSU, UW
    UW - @Illinois, MSU @ Tokyo
    
    If OSU wins out, they go. If OSU loses, if either UW or Illinois win
    out, that team goes(OSU/UW tie, each 3-0 NC, Wisco least recently went)
    OSU holds the tiebreaker (won) vs Illinois.
    
    Illinois will win out, we just have to hope Indiana or Michigan can
    clean things up.
    
    On my way to State College -
    
    Oskee Wow Wow
    Murph
    

>    Rose Bowl Tiebreaker
>    1) Head to Head
>    2) Overall Record
>    3) Least recent appearance.
    
    The PAC doesn't use #2.

      So Wisconsin still has a chance!
    
      I read in the most recent SI that should Wisconsin not make
      the Rose, they will probably make the Citrus bowl.  What time
      is that one on?
    
      I heard that matchup will likely be Tennessee who while being
      3rd in the SEC is the top ranked SEC team at #5.  That would
      be a tough game.  I have a lot of respect for that team.  They
      are strong year in and year out.  I still remember the time they
      blew out Miami (yeah!).  I'm surprised they haven't made #1 in
      the last ten years or so.
    
      But, I'd still rather see Wisconsin in "the granddaddy of them
      all", the Rose Bowl.
    
                                                   Tony

The CompUSA Florida Citrus bowl is on Jan. 1. It matches the second place
SEC team versus the #2 Big 10 team. FWIW, it's in Orlando.

TTom

    FWIW, the NYC "big man" IU signed was 6'7" Swingman Rob Hodgson, from
    Long Island, who has played his HS career as a Point Forward.
    
    Redmen Phil
    
    

    re .331
    
    I read in the Louisville Courier Journal this weekend that Hodgson will
    play point guard this year.  His father is the coach and said that
    Hodgson has exceptional passing and dribbling skills.
    
    With Hodgson, IU is considered by many to have one of the best classes
    in the country.  They will be a little down this year, but look for the
    Hoosiers to be in the thick of things 2 years from now.
    
     - Bob

    Yuck. Not the game - the phlegm in my throat from sitting in the rain
    watching the game. Illinois is still way too inconsistent on offense,
    primarily at QB. 2 turnovers, a questionable fake punt call, and a long
    punt return set up 28 quick ones for PSU and it was bascially over.
    
    I doubt the Illini can beat UW to salvage a bowl from this mess, but
    who knows. Would like to see OSU win out and get a good final ranking.
    Would help if UW could put the hurt on Tennessee, doubt that can happen
    either.
    
    On to hoops. 
    
    Murph

    Was thinking of you sitting out in that mess when I saw the deluge 
    on the tube, Murph.  So much for the beautiful setting in the Nittanies
    on a crisp autumn afternoon... my one trip I just got lucky, I guess. 
    
    glenn
    

    What a trip - we had one map, in the other car. At Wilkes 
    Barre, I asked to look at it. They thought I took it. We were
    just looking for the State College signs which didn't exist, and
    drove 90 miles past, since nobody was looking at the map.
    
    Yuck. It could have been worse, last year
    we drove back from the Hoops game during the storm which dumped 
    2-3 ft in Worcester. Thought we were going to die, just pulled in
    behind a plow and cruised at 20 mph down MassPike. Gonna be a while
    before I need to get back. TV is much easier.
    
    Murph
     

    Ouch Murph,
    
    That setting looked familiar to me as well. Harkened back to the
    Penn St-ND 1985 game. Pleasant weather, upper thirties, cold rain.
    
    Did ya git a mud bath in the fields they call parking lots??
    
    MikeL
    

      Actually, I'm not ready to count UW out of the Rose Bowl.
      Michigan crushed Minnesota 58-7 and I figure they'll be 
      totally loose in their contest against the Buckeyes AT
      Ann Arbor.  I think it promises to be a close game.
    
      Actually, the Badgers at Illinois might not be a picnic.
      Well, if they can get by Illinois and Michigan can take
      the Buckeyes...
    
      Surprised about UCLA's loss by the way.
    
                                                Tony

      If the Las Vegas' spread is any basis for what might happen,
      the Big 10 Rose Bowl representative is almost a toss-up.
      Michigan is a 1 point favorite over Ohio State and Wisconsin
      is a 1 point favorite over Illinois.
    
      I guess they figure both games are close which I guess gives
      Wisconsin a 25% shot of having a chance after this Saturday.
    
      I'm more wary of the Badger's chances than Ohio State.  I
      just figure Michigan is going to be really tough.  Wheatley's
      back, they might be on a roll, they ought to be loose, and its
      at home for them.  Meanwhile, Illinois has played some real good
      football and they're at home.
    
      Well, we'll see...
    
                                                Tony

      It all went Wisconsin's way!!!
    
      I thought Michigan would blast Ohio State, but I'm surprised
      by how much Wisconsin blasted Illinois 35-10.  Illinois' lone
      TD came on a return of a blocked punt early in the 3rd quarter.
      Wisconsin then proceeded to march on a 92 yard scoring drive.
    
      Illinois' rushing defense was ranked #4 giving up an average
      of 96 yards/game.  Wisconsin ran for 301 yards!!!!  And this
      game was in Champaign Illinois.
    
      So, its onto Tokyo against Michigan State and should Wisconsin
      win, they will be 9-1-1 and win the tiebreaker against OSU
      AND GO TO THE ROSE BOWL.
    
      By the way...concerning Wisconsin's offense.  They return 9
      starters losing a tackle (Panos) and their fullback Montgomery.
      Bevell is a sophomore QB.  Moss and Deramus are juniors.  4/5ths
      of this line which typically is opening gaping holes is returning.
      Watch out for this offense next year!                   
    
      What a great sports weekend for me!
    
                                                      Tony

    
    Yessir,
    
    #4 in Big Ten Michigan accepts bid to Hall of Fame Bowl to
    face #4 in ACC NCState.  Er, care to bet which team will win this one
    and which conference might be a little tougher?
    
    MikeL
    
    

      Well, if one's a Wisconsin fan, tommorow's a big day.  Being
      35 years old, I have no recollection of Wisconsin ever partici-
      pating in a Rose Bowl.  But, I learned that in '63, they played
      what's considered the most exciting Rose Bowl of them all.
    
      Sometime this weekend, we'll know if Wisconsin will once again
      represent the Big 10 in the Rose Bowl.  
    
      I think they will win, but any team that can build a 37-17 lead
      on Penn State is no push-over. 
    
                                                 Tony

    what happened in the 1963 Rose Bowl??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    1963 Rose Bowl,
    
    I believe USC played Wisconsin in a thrilla.
    
    The Trojans built up a huge lead only to watch Wisconsin storm back
    to almost win. Final score was 42-39 mebbe, USC winning.
    
    Badgers return after 30 year hiatus
    
    MikeL
    

    
    >>what happened in the 1963 Rose Bowl??
    
    Two teams played, one won and one lost, unless it was a tie, then
    neither won nor lost.
    
    JaKe
    

	As I remember the Wisconsin QB Ron Vanderkalin went crazy in the 2nd
half and brougth them back from a blowout. Score came out like 42-39 with
SC on top. Never heard squat about the guy after that game. He could have
been another mad bomber.


  Cadzilla2

    Kind of a funny article about the Japan game between UW and MSU. Seems
    the Japanese didn't want the male cheerleaders in the halftime show.
    
    The best quote...
    
    "According to the Lansing State Journal, the original contract language
    called for members of both teams' cheering and dancing squads to bring
    '20 blonde dancing girls', a stipulation of the Japanese sponsors, Tele
    Planning International."
    
    Must have missed those VoD workshops...
    
    Murph
    
    
    

    I read that article in the Globe as well this AM.
    The author interviewed several cheerleaders from other college
    teams that went to Japan (past mirage bowls). I guess the female
    cheerleaders from these teams had some unpleasant remembrances.
    All chalked up to cultural differences.
    
    One ex-cheerleader thought that the Japanese had this vision
    of every female cheerleader being the stereotypical Cowgirl/Raiderette,
    long-legged, big-busted wif low tank tops, bliond bombshell.
    Nice vision!
    
    MikeL
    

  Of the six Big 10 teams going bowling 4 are underdogs, there is no line on
 a another one and the sole favorite is playing BYU. Apparently, the betting
 public doesn't think that the Big 10 is as strong as Big 10 fans do.

The Michigan St-Louisville line is "No Line" cause the QB for Louisville
might not be able to play.

Given the Rose Bowl record for the Big10, UCLA is gonna be the favorite.

Also, small nit, but Michigan is favored over NC State.

TTom

   Yup, Michigan is a fave over might NC State. My bad. But I doubt
  that UCLA is a fave because of past history. UCLA, despite having 
  three losses, is a damn good team which everyone on the right coast
  should find out on New Year's Day.

I agree with you on UCLA.

But past history would favor the PAC 10 team without much regard to who
the participants were.

TTom

                               
 > Of the six Big 10 teams going bowling 4 are underdogs, there is no line on
 > a another one and the sole favorite is playing BYU. Apparently, the betting
 > public doesn't think that the Big 10 is as strong as Big 10 fans do.
    
    That's seven teams (I undershot the prediction; Iowa shouldn't be going
    anywhere...)
    
    The matchups involving the Big-10 were screwed up by the alliance and 
    various bowl rules and are in general lousy this year as a result.  
    You've got the fiasco resulting in co-conference champ Ohio St. taking 
    the 3rd-place spot in the Holiday Bowl, which was a bad deal for the 
    Big-10 to begin with made even worse, and Penn State clearly overmatched 
    up against Tennessee because of it.  Two good games both become poor
    ones.  Underachieving Michigan was also sold short, as they finally came 
    on strong late in the season and are still a very talented team.  Still, 
    even with these 10+ point spreads on either end of the spectrum, winning 
    4 of the 7 bowl games is a reasonable expectation. 
    
    At least 3 points of the UCLA-Wisconsin Rose Bowl matchup are directly
    attributable to "home field advantage" properly accounted for by the 
    house, before you even consider Rose Bowl history (which I don't think 
    matters as much).  But, that's also a very winnable game.  I thought
    Wisconsin was again quite impressive in the game against Michigan St. 
    in Japan.  I shut it off with a few minutes to play but I believe they
    never did have to punt even once in the game, and their defense was
    solid against a team that throws the ball well which is what they'll
    see from UCLA... 
    
    glenn
     

The problem that Wisonsin has is that UCLA has this time before New
Year's to get healthy.

TTom

With over a month to prepare the advantage goes to the team with the potent
offense over the defense. UCLA's O-coordinator will have plenty of new wrinkles
in time for the Rose Bowl.

Wisconsin needs to play a ND-like game with ball control and no mistakes and
keep the UCLA offense off the field. 

I think their power will win out over UCLA's trickery...

Wisconsin by 3....

Metz

A quick ball hawking defense is one of the worst things to have against a
poweroffensive line that also has decent speed. (case in point ND's offense vs.
FSU's defense)....

If you are  going to have a stacked front (8 man line) like a lot of the PAC-10
does (modelled after Washington) you'd better have 2  cover guys that can cover
anybody mano-a-mano for a whole game and a defensive stud like Steve Entman
that can stack up an offensive line by himself...

Most of the Pac-10 teams have figured out how to offense the quick defense
(witness Arizona and Washington getting scored upon a lot this year). Michigan
even figured it out last year in time for the Rose Bowl...UCLA should hope that
Wisconsin doesn't consult with a few PAC-10 coaches on ways to thwart the quick
defense....

Metz

    re .342
    
    I heard it was considered the most exciting Rose Bowl ever
    played.  I think USC came in #1 in the country.  As my dad
    understood it, the Badger players got completely wowed by 
    the California scene(!).  They gave up a lot of points early,
    launched a furious 4th quarter comeback, and barely lost 42-37.
    
    Ron Vanderkelen was the QB and Pat Richter (present Wisconsin
    Athletic Director) an end.  I remember as a kid having an Atlanta
    Falcon Ron Vanderkelen football card.  USC had Pete Beathard at
    QB.
    
    I think UCLA is going to win.  My reason is JJ Stokes and the
    inability for the Badgers to put much pressure on the QB.  There
    is no doubt that the Badger's biggest weakness is pass defense.
    With UCLA having who I consider the best wide receiver in college
    and assuming the QB will not face too much pass pressure, the UCLA
    passing game could be a bummer for me to see.
    
    I don't know much about UCLA's defense though.  It better be good
    to be able to stop Wisconsin.  Ohio State was a fluke; UW went up
    and down the field the whole second half. Even in their lone loss,
    (Minnesota mainly cause of 5 int's) they racked up 603 total yards!
    
    I think UW's game plan will be simple and quite similar to the 
    Giants against the Bills in their Super Bowl.  Run, run, run to
    eat up the clock and leave UCLA off the field.  Establish the pass
    with the run mixing some play action and safe routes.  Occasionally
    go for DeRamus deep to keep the defense honest and stretch it some-
    what.
    
    I'm not saying Wisconsin can't win, but I just think the combination
    of Stokes playing into the Badger's weakness could be deadly.
    
                                             Tony
         

      Wisconsin's field goal kicking is MUCH worse than their
      pass defense!

    Kudo's to the IU AD who suspended Bob for a game after his thoroughly
    embarassing kicking incident with his son.  This one was ugly even by
    Knight's wacky barometer, but still falls short of the B10 standard for
    ugliness which was of course defined by Woody Hayes vs. Clemson.  
    
    BobKnight's eccentricities are well documented by yours truly, but a 
    few things seem particularly noteworthy with this latest incident.  For 
    one thing, it involved an action against his own son, which raises the 
    question of child abuse.  Secondly, it seems to have struck a chord even 
    with the IU faithful, who cheered loudly when Pat Knight did something 
    positive on the floor after the incident.  
    
    Supposedly the fans who saw the alleged kick started giving Bob a hard
    time, and it was Knight's reaction to the fans that represented the
    *only* thing he apologized for.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Chris,

You must be real busy at work. I caint believe it took you most of the
day to put something in about Bobby's day off.

We all appreciate what a student you are of this type of thang. Too bad
this didn't happen within the game like Dean getting tossed but the
episode still begs for a reply from MrT.

Nice Political Correctness with the child abuse angle.

TTom

    TTom my failure to post a note on the latest Bob-incident has less to do
    with being busy at work than it does the lack of opposition I knew I'd
    encounter.  There just isn't anyone left in SPORTS willing to defend
    Knight when he does something this foul, which perhaps we can
    optimistically attribute to the postive evolution of the quality of
    this file.
    
    :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    BK is scum ...
    
    - acp

    
    	MrT would say it's tough love.  Has anybody absolutely confirmed
    	that he kicked his son?
    
    	Positive evolution my butt.  This was file was much better when
    	MrT was around.......
    
    Claybone
    

    Actually, BobBlight is not scum. He's a bit out of control at times
    (like this and other incidents) but I'd love to have mah kid play
    for him ( hey, isn't there a 20 yr old kid named Leary on the
    Hoosier team?? Wait a minute, 20 yrs ago I was in Indiana... couldn't
    be... nice Irish Catholic ex-altar boy... nah).
    
    He instills discipline, develops character, stresses education, teaches
    the game. Sure he has his bad moments, and he did deserve the one
    gamer, but on the whole, I'd take him anyday. His ex-players swear by
    him.
    
    One small aside on the incident during the ND game. Just before he
    admonished and embarrassed his son, Knight showed me some real class
    (what extremes). After the clearly pathetic and overmatched ND squad
    made a good play for a hoop, some of th IU idjits began a sarcastic
    chant about the University ( agin ND, not the players). Knight turned
    to the crowd and stopped it immediatly. He looked Po'd. 
    
    Don't let 'em get ya dowm Bobby, keep plugging. But mebbe try some yoga
    sometime. Calms the savage beast in ya.
    
    MikeL
    
     

	There's no confirmation I'm aware of that he kicked his son.
	Some people behind the bench thought he did, and an ESPN
	cameraman and one of the press people said it looked like
	he kicked at something (kid? chair?) and a player may have
	gotten in the way.  I'm assuming there are no pictures 
	available that show this, or they'd have been all over TV
	by now.

	He definitely, however, pushed his kid a little as he was sitting 
	down, and was yelling at the fans behind the bench.  This when
	they were up by around 30 points.  Overall I agree with MikeL;
	if my son was going to play major-college ball, I wouldn't mind
	if he wanted to play for Knight.  But the man REALLY needs somebody
	to help him learn how to relax or channel his emotions or something.

	For an Indiana fan, it's most depressing.

tom

    
    	Don't sweat it about your kid being short and slow.  He's
    	still got a great chance of playing for the Red Sox!  
    
    Claybone

	Actually, if T was here I'm sure he'd say my kid has a good
	chance of playing for the Hoosiers!

tom

    
    	A "kicking motion" at what?  
    
    	It takes all kinds don't it Mac?  :*)
    
    Claybone

    I heard an interview with a reporter (covers IU) from the Louisville Courier
    Journal Sunday night.  He stated that there were several people on
    press row, who witnessed Knight kicking his son.  Also, some fans saw
    the action.
    
    What amazes me is that Indiana University officials finally had the
    guts to discipline Knight.  For too many years, Bob has had them in his
    back pocket.  The "Inmate Running the Asylum" philosophy which had
    prevailed at IU has led to many an embarrassing moment for the
    university caused by the actions of Coach Knight.
    
    If I had a child talented enough to play major Division I basketball, I
    would frown upon him playing at IU under Knight.  I have no problem
    with the man's coaching ability.  He is one of the brightest teachers
    the game has ever seen.  However, I believe Knights on and off court
    actions through the years have proven that both his "Emotional Oars"
    aren't in the water.  Knight has done alot of charitable things in the
    past that have gone largely unreported outside the state of Indiana. 
    His lack of emotional self-control however has overshadowed his
    positive contributions to the community.
    
    How many of us would like it if our boss berated us publicly in front
    of our peers?  I dare say none!  Same applies to coaching.  You won't
    find guys like Coach K, Dean Smith, John Thompson, Pitino, Cremins,
    Crum, etc. making a kid look like a fool in public.  These coaches
    prefer to discipline a kid behind closed doors, not embarrass him and
    his family publicly.
    
    At times I think Knight is maturing only to see another incident such
    as the one last week occur.  Hopefully he can get it under control
    before another Woody Hayes incident occurs.
    
    - Rope

    Ditto what Rope said.  I wouldn't send my son to BobKnight to learn
    basketball anymore than I'd send him to BobbyFisher to learn chess.
    
    They're both brilliant.  They've both got a few screws loose.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    
    Yabbut ACC_Chris,
    
    
    HOW DARE YOU BRING BOBBY FISHER INTO THE SAME GROUP OF 'TRONS AS BOB
    KNIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    a pox on you!!!!!!
    
    I remain,
    k6-q8ch!
    Kev
    

The only person getting embarrased is Knight. I've had tough coaches that have
chewed me and others out right on the sideline. It's not that big a deal. The
kicking incident is past the line though and Indiana was right in suspending
him for a game....

I'd have no qualms about sending a child of mine to play under Knight. I'd
rather have them play under a coach that expects 100% every time out, won't
tolerate mental mistakes, is willing to experiment and try new things and let's
you know where the line is than a coach that values senority over ability, is
too wishy-washy to determine a punishment for an infraction and tries to mold
every player into 1 system....

Do the players that make it through love Knight? Nahh..but they all speak
highly of him as THE man that molded them into what they are....


Metz

    Gee,
    
    Lou Holtz gets excoriated for being a disciplinarian (he stresses
    education, values, etc as well as Knight), is a great coach in his
    own right.  Wish he'd larn somefin from Bobby... STOP BS'N AND
    SANDBAGGIN'
    
    
    MikeL
    

    RE: Leary, Bobby Knight has NEVER put two College programs on
    probation......
    
    REK

	MikeL, please refrain from comparing that little weasel Holtz to a 
main's kind of a main like Bob Knight.  Maybe if more kids got a boot 
every once and a while there wouldn't be so many of them toting more 
destructive hardware than some small countries' armies.  Kudos Bob!

				/Don

    Careful REK,
    HE did not... and Slash, you know better than dat.
    
    MikeL
    

    The hoodwinking that MrT imparted on SPORTS that IU has no talent has got 
    to be the man's most resilient legacy.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    Bob would have a few more pros now if he could have found a way to keep
    the Coke out of their noses. What does he care?
    
    Murph
    

	Bob Who?  What on Earth are you talking about?  I'm making a guess
	that you mean coke, not Coke (although I've had a little bit of the
	latter in my nose from time to time; it's no fun), but I've been
	an Indiana fan for thirty years and I'm unaware of a problem with
	either.  Please explain.

tom

	BTW, Rope believes the official team beverage MAY be 7-Up. 

    re .381
    
    >> Bob would have a few more pros now if he could have found a way to
    >> keep the Coke out of their noses. 
    
    I wonder if he's tried using straws?  The only time it ever goes up my
    nose is when I drink it straight from the bottle.
    
    >> What does he care?
    
    My sources tell me he cares a great deal.  He just signed a 5-year deal
    with 7-UP because it only causes a slight tickling sensation when it
    goes up the nose rather than the awful burning Coke causes.
    
    :-),
    
    Rope

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 20.380                      Big Ten Sports                       380 of 383
RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue"                          6 lines  14-DEC-1993 16:56
>>>      -< Bobby & Lou similar in talent hauls,but Lou develops it better >-
    
I believe they both develop talent pretty well. If there's a difference in
    this ability, it's infinitesimal.
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>    The hoodwinking that MrT imparted on SPORTS that IU has no talent has got 
>>>    to be the man's most resilient legacy.
    
    
>>>    - ACC Chris
    
Bingo!
    
    MikeL
    

    I thought there was someone else, but at the very least Jay Edwards had
    the talent to be a pro player for many years had he not had a drug (and
    other) problems. At the very least, he was the B10 player of the year
    as a sophomore, hardly chopped liver in my book. He won the B10 title
    for IU that year on his own with at least 4 buzzer beaters.
    
    Murph
    

The year, 2005.   The place, Columbia SC.

Today, Michael Ross signed a letter of intent to play basketball for 
Bob Knight's Indiana Hoosiers.   The 6'2" Ross, whom Knight has called
"Damon Bailey, only better", averaged 27 points and 8 assists for the
Spring Valley Spartans leading them to the CLASS AAAA championship for
the second straight year.   Knight had considered retiring at the 
end of the 2004 season after his 5th NCAA championship and after passing
Dean Smith in all-time career victories, but decided to sign a four year
contract extension when Ross selected the Hoosiers over Coach Henrik Rodl's
North Carolina squad.   "It was an easy choice," Ross said.  "I wanted to
learn how to play defense and have a chance to earn a starting spot based
on my skills rather than on how long I'd been on the team.   I know Coach
Knight is tough, but all he asks is that I play hard and play smart all
the time.  What's wrong with that?"

	re. .381, .385

	There have actually been two drug incidents I'm aware of in Knight's
	20+ years at Indiana.  In 1979, a group of players was apparently 
	smoking marijuana at the Great Alaska Shootout.  Several players were
	suspended from the team for a period of time and 2 (I believe that's
	the right number) were thrown off of the team.  These 2 lied to the 
	coaching staff about their involvement.

	Jay Edwards' problem while at Indiana was also marijuana.  His 
	publicized run-in with cocaine came later.  Edwards was suspended
	from the team (if I remember correctly this was in the early fall,
	so the suspension may have been something of a non-issues) and, per
	Big Ten/Indiana policy on drugs, had to attend a 10-day rehab program.
	Knight's push to put Edwards in a 30-day program was vetoed due to
	the existing drug policy.  

	Both of the above are from meory, but I think they're accurate.  I

tom  

	Comparing the truckload of NFL talent that Notre Dame gets to what 
Bob has to work with is a travesty.  When Bob Knight has TWO players in the 
NBA eligible for Rookie of the Year like Lou has in the NFL (Bettis and Brooks),
and when with those two very talented players he chokes away a championship 
(like Lou did), then you can compare the two.  If Knight had the basketball 
equivalent of talent that Lou gets at the football factory, Wooden's record 
number of championships would be in jeopardy.

				/Don

    Lame Slash Lame.
    
    A_course Bob gets dang good talent. Talent with good coaching wins.
    Don't spout the Heineken-induced Tisms about lack_a_talent at IU.
    If'n Bob had mediocre talent, great coaching would steel lead to
    mediocre results. Great coaching (whicxh Bob AND Lou is) plus talent=
    consistent winners. Have both underachieved? Yup, and both will
    alsio continue to win.
    
    Give up the tired red herring Slash. MrT's lame bleatisms have
    floated away totally unsubstantiated.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    I tend to wonder about this. When Lou-Doo went to the Final Four, I
    felt that only Stephen Bardo and MAYBE Gill could have played for
    Knight. Battle, Anderson, and Liberty would never have lasted at
    Indiana. Knight had Funderburke and couldn't rope him into his system,
    ergo Funderburke is a star at OSU and will be a pro. Witness Isiah
    leaving after only two years - not wanting any more of Knight. A lot of
    the more talented players wouldn't want to play for Knight and wouldn't
    thrive there. Would Knight do better with Webber, Howard, Rose,
    Jackson, and King than Steve Fisher did? I doubt it - and I bet Juwan
    and Jalen would have given much more serious thought to leaving after 2
    years. 
    
    I'm trying to remember if any other talented, future pros, deicoded to
    leave IU.
    
    John
    

...um...Larry Bird?

    Calbert Chaney would be one...
    of course, how many seniors were there for Indiana hoop vs ND football?
    average 20 seniors for football and 3 for basketball?
    

    Tommy me bucko,
    
    Tim Brown had nada to do with ND's '88 champeenship. He was gradiated
    and Rocket was a frosh and while a vital cog, not the vital main on
    offense (Tony Rice, Anthony Johnson, Mark Green and sophs Tony Brooks,
    Derek Brown and Ricky Watters were). ND's '89 team was #2, losing to
    eventual champ Miami. '90 and '91, ND had marginal defenses which
    lead to their downfall. '92 disapponted me.. best team Holtz has had
    at ND (better than this years IMO in retrospect) and they chicken-boned
    it against Stanford. No excuses.  And don't count out this year's team.
    Could be co-champs with the media dahlins that they whupped, or is it
    more correct to say, that the Eunuch "undercoached" away??
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

  Larry Bird is on record as saying that he left Indiana because he couldn't
 adjust socially. Isaiah left for the money. Knight's style *is* overbearing,
 rather militaristic and not for the faint of heart but he does succeed with 
 it. But I wouldn't want to play for him. Other than his '76 team his title
 teams haven't been overly talented. In '81 it was Isaiah and who else? The
 last title there was Keith Smart and Dean Whathisname who haven't been heard 
 from since. 

    
    	Larry Bird attended IU prior to ISU?
    
    Claybone

    Yeah he did but became homesick and went to ISU because it was closer
    to home.  I'm not even sure if Knight knew he was there.  IU had the
    championship team of Buckner and Thomas that year too.  Adding Bird and
    they would've been lethal.

    I thought Isiah was in the pros by '81?  What other NBA players were on
    that '76 team?  Scott May?  Kent Benson?

    I still don't know - two years ago he had
    Eric Anderson, Calbert Cheaney, Greg Graham, Damon Bailey,
    Alan Henderson, Chris Reynolds. Pat Graham got injured and
    judging from what I saw from him before he got hurt last year he could
    have started. Plus he started with Funderburke. And the bench was
    loaded as well. 
    
    Speaking of IU - I am going crazy over this one. I was at WW II the
    other night (Wayne's World, not World War) and saw the preview for
    Blue Chips. Cool to see all the recent college players. Aside from
    Shaq, there was another player shown repeatedly, and I'm sure it was an
    Indiana player - but I can't put a name with the face. White guy, a
    forward.
    
    Help!
    Murph
    

    Wasn't Blab on the team with Thomas?  Jim Thomas?
    

    MikeH,
    
    I would think that Knight knew Bird was there. Didn't he recruit
    Lawwy??  
    
    MikeL
    

BobKnight did indeed recruit Bird.  I'm not sure of the timing, 
but Larry had some "stuff" going on in his life at that time.
His "accidental" daughter was born during this time frame.

Larry was quite impressed with BobKnight, in fact he urged
his brother Eddie to play for Knight.  I don't know if
Eddie was recruited by IU or not, but he opted for 
ISU instead.

=Bob=

    Larry always has downplayed any role Knight may have played in his
    decision to leave IU and in later years speak highly of each other.
    
    But guess work would have it that Bird saw a style that he didn't feel
    comfortable with.  Bird does mention runins with Benson and the
    upperclassmen on the team doing less than embracing the freshman
    talent.
    
    The way I would put it is Knight could have shown more leadership in
    keeping Bird at Indiana.

	Larry Bird never attended an official basketball practice of
Knights while at IU. He only lasted about a month at IU, then left.
He left because he didn't like 100+ people in each class. He just
couldn't cope socially and academically. He went back home and started
working for the town's DPW for about 9 months. The coach from ISU looked
him up and convinced him to give college another try. The rest is
history.

Ron

	re. .401

	The guy you saw in Blue Chips was probably Matt Nover.  He 
	supposedly was good enough to get offered some sort of acting
	deal, but I think he's playing b-ball in Europe somewhere (Italy?) 
	and doing very well.

tom

      So...who's gonna win the Rose Bowl!!!
    
      Speaking of Knight...maybe I'm wrong, but he seems like his ego
      couldn't fit in the sky!

    so who cares??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Rose Bowl hasn't meant a thing in almost 20 years.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    .12 amended - Pac10 or Big10 have noit had an undsiputed
    MNC in almost 20 years. I think there was a USC-OSU game in the
    early 80's that meant something.
    
    The Crazy met
    

Yabut the Rose Bowl stadium is just aboutthe coolest structure 
in 'merica where sprots are played.

    
>    .12 amended - Pac10 or Big10 have noit had an undsiputed
>    MNC in almost 20 years. I think there was a USC-OSU game in the
>    early 80's that meant something.
    
    Washington fans might have something to say about this, too...
    
    glenn
    

      Well, this is the Big 10 topic and I think the Rose Bowl 
      means something to Big 10 fans.  I'm from Wisconsin and
      (being from the midwest) it always meant something to me
      to see the Big 10 win even though its not too often!
    
      If there's regional interest, it still means something.
    
                                           Tony

    	UCLA will crush Wisconsin.  They would be a good dark horse to go
    all the way if the NCAA settled championships in a mainly fashion.
    
    				/Don

    One of the major reasons for no mnc playoff is the contracts that exist
    between conferences and bowls.  anyone know if these contracts have
    been renewed lately or will they be allowed to expire so progress on a
    playoff can begin.
    
    I don't know what would happen if only one bowl contract remained and
    ncaa decided to run a playoff?

    re: Grandaddy - bah humbug
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Lissen dudes,
    
    Grandaddy means big buckeroos. This here matchup gives out much more
    dough than any other bowl by far. The BigTen(11) and the PAC10 have
    had this contract sewn up for years.
    People squawk about the Coalition members scramblin' for the richer
    (excluding the stinkyrose) bowls and cryin' "self-serving bastards"
    while the true culprits are settin' fat, dumb, happy, and mediocre...
    waiting for the 6mil StinkyRose. Rumors fly about Coalition failure
    cuz there;s no playoff... wail, if'n any of the BigTen/PAC10 pretendahs
    ever git the consistency to field excellent clutch teams, it won't
    matter to these two conferences cuz they's got the bigbucks in their
    backpocket so why would they care if there's a playoff.
    
    These dudes didn't want to open up the Rose, dat's why even with a
    playoff, there will always be controversy (BigTen/PAC10 will steel
    insist on keepin' da Rose closed).
    
    MikeL
    

FYI - If a playoff format is ever determined, the playoffs will be done after
the bowl games. The bowls will still exist because of a few things...

1) Cash. The bowl games bring im mucho cash for universities, TV networks and 
	geographic areas that host them.

2) Rivalries. The Rose bowl being the biggest. PAC 10 vs. Big 10. The whiners
only with they had a game as steeped in tradition. 

3) Cash

4) Gives people living in crappy weather areas an excuse to visit the sun for a
few measly days. 

5)  Cash

The playoff games will be after the bowl contests w/ only 4 teams eligible
spread over 2 weekends. It will generate more cash which is always a good thing
as far as the NCAA and universities are concerned.

The minor 4th in conference vs. 3rd ranked independent team bowls might fall by
teh wayside but why do they exist now?

Metz

> 2) Rivalries. The Rose bowl being the biggest. PAC 10 vs. Big 10. The whiners
>    only with they had a game as steeped in tradition. 
    
    Exactly.  Sheesh.  The folks in here have absolutely no respect for
    tradition.  Hey, MikeL, why do you think that Notre Dame has the 
    popularity that it does, such that it can wield the power and prestige
    that it does?  It ain't the South Bend scenery.  It's tradition.  Same
    with the Rose Bowl.
    
    There's no reason that the Rose Bowl can't continue as it has, and enter
    the winner of the Big-10/Pac-10 game into the post-bowl playoffs, if that 
    team is deemed so worthy after looking at all the New Year's Day winners.  
    The real problem with a true and fair playoff system will come about with 
    the question of what to do with Notre Dame, and whether they'll be 
    guaranteed a major-bowl preliminary berth each and every year regardless 
    of merit.  Think ND will vote for a system that denies them this existing
    privilege?  ;-) 
    
    glenn
    

>>    Exactly.  Sheesh.  The folks in here have absolutely no respect for
>>    tradition.  Hey, MikeL, why do you think that Notre Dame has the 
>>    popularity that it does, such that it can wield the power and prestige
>>    that it does?  It ain't the South Bend scenery.  It's tradition.  Same
>>    with the Rose Bowl.
  
    Who's complainin' about tradition? I like the Rose Bowl and its longtime
    rivalry. Traditionally, with college football *voting* its champeen,
    I like the tradition-bound bowl games and dislike tha lack_a_playoffs.
    Why was the coalition formed?? To try and make some sense in creating
    so-called #1 vs2 matchups keeping the same "traditional" bowl
    contracts ( well we've seen how that's gone when the #1 team in the
    country is a 17 pt *dog*). Conceptually the coalition was a good idea.
    And who would have nothing to do with it?? Pac10/Big Ten (Rose), and
    don't feed me that # 2's from each conference "participate" in the
    coalition bowl matchups (like givin' someone the back_a__yo' hand).
    Money, money, money.. and that's not a bad thing.
    
    But my point is that despite efforts from the Coalition to use the
    same bowl format to help bring about a #1-#2 when possible, the Rose
    and its contractees said no way, jose. We'll keep the 6mil. Fine..
    so when either conference has a team in position to win a MNC(UDub),
    you'll see a co-champ scenario.. Why not use the 4 major bowls to
    host the top 8 teams to start the playoff system.. Void all
    contracts, determine the matchups, divy the monies equally and
    continue on the next two weekends?  Wanna bet who'll bitch the most
    (pssst, it won't be ND)?
    
     
      
>>    There's no reason that the Rose Bowl can't continue as it has, and enter
>>    the winner of the Big-10/Pac-10 game into the post-bowl playoffs, if that 
>>    team is deemed so worthy after looking at all the New Year's Day winners.  
  
    The Rose Bowl should continue... with an open format.. If a
    BigTen/Pac10 champ is not in the Top 8, then see ya!!
    
    
>>      The real problem with a true and fair playoff system will come about with 
>>    the question of what to do with Notre Dame, and whether they'll be 
>>    guaranteed a major-bowl preliminary berth each and every year regardless 
>>    of merit.  Think ND will vote for a system that denies them this existing
>>    privilege?  ;-) 
  
    Ah the crux of the matter.. the real issue is the *voting* of the Top
    8 teams say...In ND is in the Top 8 (how does one ever feel comfortable
    with subjective placement voting?) they'll get a berth. And we know
    the pro-ND lobby'll make sure we're in the Top 8! Remember '91??
    8^)
    
       
    MikeL
    
    

>    But my point is that despite efforts from the Coalition to use the
>    same bowl format to help bring about a #1-#2 when possible, the Rose
>    and its contractees said no way, jose. We'll keep the 6mil. Fine..
    
    Yes, they did this.  But we were talking playoffs, not the current
    coalition arrangement, which is a totally inadequate substitute for a 
    playoff system, with its non-competitive, financial bottom-line exception 
    clauses and buyouts galore.  Perhaps ironically, because the Rose Bowl 
    could be neatly included within a playoff system (as opposed to having
    no place in the coalition), the playoff system might actually be more
    attractive to the Rose Bowl than the current setup.  In any case, so 
    far the highly-flawed coalition has not provided us with much more 
    than an agreement between bowls to wait until the end of the season 
    to extend bids (a common-sense idea that was never a problem with the 
    Rose), so I'm not sure I can blame them for giving away what is unique
    and attractive about the game so that they can stand in line for
    participants like the rest (you didn't see the other bowls give up
    their automatic conference reps, either).  I could be wrong, but I have 
    to disagree that as opposed to the other bowls, the Rose Bowl is the 
    single biggest impediment to the idea of a playoff system.
    
>>    There's no reason that the Rose Bowl can't continue as it has, and enter
>>    the winner of the Big-10/Pac-10 game into the post-bowl playoffs, if that 
>>    team is deemed so worthy after looking at all the New Year's Day winners.  
>  
>    The Rose Bowl should continue... with an open format.. If a
>    BigTen/Pac10 champ is not in the Top 8, then see ya!!
    
    I wouldn't have a big problem with that, but if the Rose Bowl balked,
    it still needn't fatally sabotage the proposal.  If the Rose Bowl
    features a less attractive game, and the playoff instead goes to the 
    Citrus Bowl or somewhere else, who really loses?  Not the all-around 
    college football fan.  I like the Rose Bowl tradition but I'm not 
    saying that New Year's Day revolves around it, that a playoff couldn't
    survive without it.
    
    Likewise, I'm also not completely sold on the idea that Notre Dame would 
    vote for a playoff system that treats it as the equal of 106 other 1-A
    schools.  But, unlike with negotiate-your-own TV contracts and
    individual bowl arrangements, they probably wouldn't be able to do much
    about it if they want to compete in a championship playoff (which they
    surely wouldn't forego).  No matter how powerful ND might be they'll
    always need an opponent on the other side of the field...
    
    This thing can happen and still leave everyone happy, even if it isn't
    perfect (nothing will ever be perfect in a league with 106 teams,
    anyway).  When the money gets big enough, it *will* happen.  If
    necessary, you can overcompensate the bowls for their part in the system 
    as a quarterfinal round of the playoffs.  When the NCAA schools and the 
    bowls get together and realize they can split up X number of dollars or 
    they can split up X + $60M, somehow they'll figure it out.
    
    glenn
    

      The USA Today stated that the Badger's had the 8th ranked 
      pass defense in the Big 10, although they did mention that
      Wisconsin had 22 int's and gave up something like 11 TD's
      passing (sounds like a lot of bending!).
    
      Anyway, that's a little scary.
    
      I think the Badger's offensive line is really going to have
      to play well in order for them to win.
    
                                                Tony

Lousiville beat Michigan State 18-7.

BigTen is now 0-1 in Bowl games.

The Crazy Met

Louisville score 15 points in the 4th quarter to pull this one out.

After scoring their TD, the Spartans looked like they were barely going
through the motions.

This is something that happens in bowls: one team is very up for the game
and the other team barely shows up.

Other bowls to watch for this include the Ohio St (who'd rather be in the
Rose Bowl) versus BYU and Southern Cal (also a Rose Bowl wannabe) versus
Utah. Lasted year, Fresno St whooped Southern Cal bad when they weren't
into the game.

TTom

    Yea Michigan St looked like they'd rather be partying back in East
    Lansing. Perles sips bigtime (as does the Sisson-like kicker
    Stoyanovich). After the Ohio St loss in which they played well and
    lost (way to go Stoyo), MSU basically packed it in. One good advantage
    that the Spartan offensive line has... girth. These fellows look like
    they already belong on an NFL offensive line... each about 60 lbs.
    overweight. Must be on the George Perles diet.. and they're each
    as quick as Perles also. What a waste of talent.
    
    Well TTom, here's hoping ND doesn't fall into yo' category.
    
    MikeL
    

Also watch out for Nebraska. Best thing that could have happened to them
is being 17 point underdogs. I still don't think they can beat Florida St.
but they will likely make it close.

West Virginia against Florida is the other one. WVU is undefeated, ranked 3rd,
not happy about the ranking and also an underdog. Florida better be ready or
they could get blitzed at the start and never quite recover.

ND in the finest Holtzian tradition will run up the score as much as possible
and hope that Fl. St. and Nebraska both play pathetic games.

The Crazy Met

Holtz will definitely run the score up.

The scenario he's looking for is Florida beating West Virginia, Florida
St barely beating Nebraska and the Irish crushing Texas A&M.

In any case, there's no way ND doesn't show up for this one.

TTom

>>ND in the finest Holtzian tradition will run up the score as much as possible

	TCM, you say that like it's a bad thing.


	billl

and on Monday we'll all hear from MikeL that going on 4th and 1 with the
score already 51-7 instead of kicking a FG was not running the score up but
a brilliant strategic move. Cause 'ya see, a FG would not have given ND a
50 point margin. hah!

The Crazy Met

	TCM, one thing you musta forgot is that going for the MNC in "big time"
	college football ain't nothing like arm-wrasslin' with Cathmeister.


	billl

still scratchin' my head over .435; billl being around your m-i-l for
so long musta addled your mind.

The Crazy Met

	Someone axed Bowden whether ND should be considered
for No.1 if both the Irish and Seminoles win.
	"Yeah, I could see that," he said.  "They beat us.
They would deserve it, if all that happens."
	Then he paused and smiled.
	"I hope nobody votes for them, but yeah, they deserve it."

dr.a

    Saw that too Doc,
    
    That'll prolly be our KOD. Watch A&M roll.
    
    MikeL
    

that was a stooopid thing for him to say. he should have finessed the
answer - something like Holtz would say about Navy.

The Crazy Met

    Yabbut Craze,
    Only thing he shoulda said was "Let the pollsters decide", but
    he speaks da troof. There also is precedent, 1989.
    
    MikeL
    

MikeL you keep talking about 1989. What the bleep happened in 1989.
I do recall seeing Miami beat ND - on AFN in Germany late one Sat. night.
What else happened that year??

The Crazy Met

    Craze,
    See 35.609 for the 1989-1993 comparison
    
    MikeL
    

I can't see WTF Bowden is talking about...

If FSU beats Nebraska and ND beats Texas A&M and florida beats West Virginia
all it will mean is that FSU lost to the #2 team in the country during the
regular season and ND lost to the #10 or so team (depending on where BC ends up
in the final polls)

Head to head only means so much if the other relative records match up....

Notre Damn(tm) can only BLAM themselves...

Metz

what were the rankings going in to the Bowl games after the 1989 season?

Some differences:

ND lost after beating #1 FSU, Miami ran the string after beating
#1 ND. ND lost to #16 or #17 BC, where was FSU ranked in 1989?? What 
was the Miami-ND score in 1989??

The Crazy Met

    I beg to differ, but that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.
    
    And believe me, ND blames itself. But if you include FSU in the
    take, ya gotta include ND. Head to head should be the first
    determinator, but that's my take. I said the same in '89 when
    some NDers thought they wuz robbed. They weren't.. Miami won the
    game they had to, ND didn't (head to head). Case closed that year.
    
    MikeL
    

    I know there are some differences Craze, but the bottom line should
    be head to head comp.
    
    Miami beat ND in the last regular season game in 89. They both then
    won bowl games. And I believe FSU was in the top 5 in '89.
    In '89 it was 27-10 Miami at Miami. These should be taken into
    consideration as well... that's why if FSU, ND and Florida win,
    ND and FSU should be co-champs. In '89, Miami was sole champ.
    
    MikeL
    

Head to head means  something but it don't mean everything...That's why they
play a full schedule instead of just pitting the few select teams head to head.

The only time head to head counts for everything is in the playoffs which I
desperately wish college football had.

Metz

    	Notre Dame lost to Boston College who lost to Northwestern!  No
    team that loses to a team that lost to Northwestern should be National
    Champions.  Case closed!
    
    				/Don

    Florida St lost to Notre Dame who lost to Boston College who lost
    to Northwestern. No team that loses to a team who lost to a team
    that lost to Northwestern should be national champs.
    Case re-opened!
    
    MikeL
     

    re: .449
    
    so just give it to NU or WVU :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

      Obviously the whole process is pretty subjective.  There is
      no way an undefeated record should hold complete sway, but
      then again, it oughtn't also be ONLY a function of who the
      better team on the field is.
    
      The best argument against the undefeated record stance is the
      BYU team.  Man, they didn't play anybody!  But, to their defense,
      nobody was willing to play them in the Holiday Bowl opting for
      the big bucks rather than the chance to play the #1 ranked team
      in the country.  They beat (I think #9) Michigan, the highest 
      ranked team they played all year.
    
      Right now, the best example (for me) of not being able to qualify
      teams only on the basis of how good they are is Michigan.  There
      is no way they are a top 10 team or anything, but I think most
      people would believe that they are better than where they are ranked
      and would probably beat a few teams ranked immediately higher than
      them.  The thing is...they just plain lost too many games.  Yes, they
      tied Wisconsin at Wisconsin.  Yes, they beat Penn State at Penn and 
      destroyed Ohio State, but they lost too many games.  Another example
      of this is UCLA.  You can't rank a team purely on how good you think 
      they are.  They must be penalized somewhat for their record.
    
      So I personally think that FSU's schedule puts them at #1 even though
      they lost to Notre Dame.  Maybe there's argument that this is a close
      call.  Had the game been played in Florida rather than Notre Dame,
      I'd give it to Notre Dame.  Had Notre Dame lost at Boston College
      rather than at home in a strategic (i.e. the LAST) game, I might call
      it a coin flip between them and FSU.  But, Notre Dame lost AT HOME 
      in the last game of the year.
    
      My inclination is to rank the teams:
    
      1) Florida State
    
      2) Notre Dame
    
      3) Nebraska (tie)
    
      3) West Virginia (tie)
    
      5) Texas A&M
    
      and have Florida State and Notre Dame play it out in a true neutral
      field - Phoenix at the Fiesta Bowl.
    
                                                   Tony

    Well well. The B10 went 4-3 and of the three losses, only IU deserved
    to be in a bowl game (Iowa never beat a winning team and finished in
    8th place - I wouldn't expect the 8th place ACC or B8 team to win a
    bowl either). Penn State crushed Tennessee who was supposedly the best
    team in the SEC. Michigan looks like the best team of the lot the way
    they finished, and Bucky showed strong. OSU looked pretty ugly, but
    Cooper sucks, and they did win.
    
    Best conference this year, will be better next year. Because of that,
    ain't no way there will be a MNC team from the B10 - impossible to go
    8-0 in that conference. Wisco will have a chance, but Michigan, OSU,
    and Illinois return tough squads, and UW just added Miami for the
    kickoff game in NJ.
    
    Excellent!
    Murph
    

> ain't no way there will be a MNC team from the B10

talk about starting to make excuses early!

The Crazy Met

    Yes, the big four of the Big-10 (Wisconsin, Penn State, Ohio State,
    and Michigan) proved the merits of the conference to the non-believers
    by all posting wins and placing 3 teams in the final top 10.  The team 
    that didn't make it, Michigan, was arguably the best of the bunch at 
    the end of the season but as usual had cashed in their chances with the 
    early chokejobs.  Like the fans of that wussy Pac-10 finesse football
    factory UCLA (regular-season turnover ratio champion playing in that 
    fair conference but still unable to hold onto the football when hit 
    by the real men of America's heartland, nor able to stop or mount a 
    decent rushing attack) are fond of saying, it's just too bad for 
    Michigan that there's no playoff system because they might be the best 
    underachieving 4-loss team in the country.  Next time send a team to 
    the Rose Bowl that can hit and be hit, like maybe Arizona!
    
    As you alluded to, Murph, only the dreadful John Cooper could turn a
    virtually unslowed running game and a ~250-yard back in Lamont Harris
    into a near-upset loss to BYU.  Nothing like going to the prevent
    defense with a 2-TD lead in the second quarter.  Penn State's win was 
    the most impressive, considering the quality of the opposition.  I 
    liked PSU with the excessive +10 but did not at all expect the total 
    domination that occurred.  Tennessee even held the early 10-point lead
    and momentum but still could get nothing going on offense.  Easily the
    best defensive effort of the year from Penn St...
    
    glenn
    

    Agreed for the most part glenn. Penn St was the most impressive
    but I don't believe OSU glorified themselves. I know a win's a
    win, but the Bucks shoulda ran through BYU like Sherman ran through
    Georgia (sorry rebs!). Until Cooper beats Michigan, he's still
    questionable.
    
    MikeL
    
    

Tommy must be on vacation.

The Crazy Met

    
>    Agreed for the most part glenn. Penn St was the most impressive
>    but I don't believe OSU glorified themselves. I know a win's a
>    win, but the Bucks shoulda ran through BYU like Sherman ran through
>    Georgia (sorry rebs!). Until Cooper beats Michigan, he's still
>    questionable.        
    
    They did run through BYU like that, which is what I meant.  They
    piled up something like ~350 yards in rushing yardage, and in any game
    that a team does that it shouldn't even be close.  Cooper is a joke, a
    complete laughingstock, from his "guaranteeing" a bowl victory to leaving
    Wilkinson off the field in his no-pass-rush prevent defense schemes.
    In the long run, I think it hurts the Buckeyes that he's been able to 
    come up with minor achievements like the big "tie" against Michigan in 
    1992 and a good record a close bowl win in 1993.    
    
    glenn
    
                                                           

re: Cooper.

Couldn't agree more, Glenn. And he capped it all off high-fiving his
coaches just after the wide open BYU guy dropped the pass in the end
zone. And don't forget that the actual margin of victory was the blocked
punt for a TD.

But you gotta luv Wisconsin winning the Rose Bowl.

TTom

      Yup, it was a great Rose Bowl for someone who grew up in
      Wisconsin (me!).  And boy did Wisconsin fans show the country
      what fandom is all about!  There were something like 40,000
      fans in the stands at the game and another ~50,000 that were
      in California having thought they had tickets and finding
      otherwise.
    
      Let's face it...UCLA simply turned the ball over too much, but
      as Alvarez said the Badger defense had something to say about
      that.  At least three of the six turnovers were fine defensive
      plays.  The two fumbles by the UCLA QB, the interception, and
      Stoke's fumble (he was jammed just as he tried to tuck the ball
      after his reception).  The other two fumbles I think were complete
      giveaways.
    
      UCLA did as good stopping the Badger run as anyone I saw.  They
      pursued well from behind.  
    
      I thought a pivotal play was the 4th and 1 from the 11 that Wisconsin
      had.  That was the one where the fight broke out.  I was sure #23
      was WAY offside on the play and it turns out Alvarez screamed about
      it as well.  Wisconsin lost Montgomery and Deramus and UCLA lost two
      safeties.  No offsides was called.  So Wisconsin missed on an
      excellent oppurtunity to score and the Badgers lost Montgomery, a
      player Alvarez said is good enough to play on Sunday.  With his
      almost never getting a carry...translation: the guy is an awesome 
      blocker.
    
      That really hurt.  Losing Montgomery's blocking was quite a loss
      and I was worried the Badgers wouldn't be able to sustain much 
      rushing which was sort of true.
    
      But, anyway, they came out with the win.  Man, it looked tough 
      though especially when the Badgers didn't conver the third and one
      on their last drive.
    
      ESPN the next day said that the biggest positive of the whole 
      college football year was the University of Wisconsin!!!
    
      Anyway, it was totally satisfying.
    
      By the way, the best fan thing I saw was a Badger fan at the Rose
      Bowl with a real stuffed Badger he was holding on his head!!
      Awesome!!!
    
      As to the Big 10 as a whole...
    
      On the Sportswriters on ESPN, the hefty sportswriter from Philly
      said the Big 10 was the best conference.  Well, maybe if you don't
      include Auburn, but with Auburn I'd give it to the SEC and without
      Auburn I think its close.  If you look at the top 4 (minus Auburn)
      you've got Florida State (ACC?  No way!), Notre Dame (no conf.),
      Nebraska (Big 8?  no way!), Florida (SEC - yeah), and then 3 of
      the next five are from the Big 10.
    
      So I think they did themselves well.
    
      As far as UW next year...they return 9 of 11 starters losing Panos
      (right tackle) and Montgomery (FB).  Fletcher also returns.  They
      lose 5 or 6 on defense and they really could use improvement there.
      They bend A LOT!!!  They could use much improved play from their
      field goal kicking.
    
      What a fine year for a Wisconsin fan!!
    
                                                       Tony

    
>      I thought a pivotal play was the 4th and 1 from the 11 that Wisconsin
>      had.  That was the one where the fight broke out.  I was sure #23
>      was WAY offside on the play and it turns out Alvarez screamed about
>      it as well.  Wisconsin lost Montgomery and Deramus and UCLA lost two
>      safeties.  No offsides was called.  So Wisconsin missed on an
>      excellent oppurtunity to score and the Badgers lost Montgomery, a
>      player Alvarez said is good enough to play on Sunday.  With his
>      almost never getting a carry...translation: the guy is an awesome 
>      blocker.
    
    Yep, that was a huge play that killed most of Wisconsin's offensive
    momentum and almost cost them the game.  Not only would the clear
    offsides have put UW at 1st-and-goal from the five, but they lost half
    their offensive threats ('course UCLA lost a second-team All-America 
    on D, but it was not a good tradeoff given the game situation).  I 
    don't know what happened with Montgomery, but it looked like Lee 
    Deramus got heaved for the privilege of getting his head stomped on 
    the sidelines by UCLA's Goodwin.  Deramus is not a big guy and he was
    dragged halfway across the field and was clearly whupped, then suffered 
    the indignity of getting the thumb...
    
    glenn
    

So which of you watched 13+ hours of football on Saturday??

The Crazy Met

I caint pick the winners but I shore cain watch 'em. I watched all them
games, all day. Even the four that were on about the same time. Quite the
bookends, too: State loses the firsted one and WVU loses the lasted one.

TTom

    
    
    
            I watched em all thanks for the 550 BC :-)
    
    
    
    Chap

I saw the second half od the ND-Texas A&M game and the last 13 minutes
of FSU-NU.

The Crazy Met

      The only one I saw was the Rose...

    I was too busy shooting pesky coyote and butchering/cooking marana
    for the family BBQ.
    
                                             Grizzly Adams

    Saw parts of the Michigan game.  Part of te BC game, and the last 2
    minutes of the Orange bowl.
    

  >> Yes, the big four of the Big-10 (Wisconsin, Penn State, Ohio State,
  >> and Michigan) proved the merits of the conference to the non-believers
  >> by all posting wins and placing 3 teams in the final top 10.  
>
>     Get real. OSU and Michigan beat two stanky-assed teams in BYU and NC 
>     State and Wisconsin needed every one of them 6 turnovers and that bone-
>     headed play by Cook to barely eke out a victory. 
    
    Tommy, glad to see that you're not going to let me down by downplaying 
    what amounted to two sizable upsets on NYD by Penn State and Wisconsin. 
    Mike Heiser would be proud of such excuse-making.  The final rankings 
    speak for themselves (as does Sagarin's analysis of season-long
    performance relative to competition, which placed Ohio St.-Penn
    St.-Wisconsin as #5-6-7 in the country).  Now belly up and give the
    Big-10 conference its due...
    
    glenn
    

>        <<< Note 20.470 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>
>
>
>  >> Yes, the big four of the Big-10 (Wisconsin, Penn State, Ohio State,
>  >> and Michigan) proved the merits of the conference to the non-believers
>  >> by all posting wins and placing 3 teams in the final top 10.  
>
>     Get real. OSU and Michigan beat two stanky-assed teams in BYU and NC 
>     State and Wisconsin needed every one of them 6 turnovers and that bone-
>     headed play by Cook to barely eke out a victory. 

   Not really very observant response here, IMO.  Ohio State should have
   dominated BYU, but just doesn't have the passing attack to really take
   advantage of BYU's biggest weakness, a horrible secondary.  I agree with
   Tommy on this outcome completely.

   However, along with Florida, Michigan and Penn State were two of the three
   most impressive teams on January 1.  Even though Michigan played an
   undeserving NCSU team, Michigan played extremely well, and would have beaten
   much better teams as well.  Wisconsin was playing extremely well until the
   lopsided exchange of players being thrown out, at least one unfairly.  I
   doubt the score would have been as close as it was had the officials not
   stepped in.

   Frankly, the Big Ten outperformed the ACC (two very lucky wins, three rather
   lopsided defeats), the WAC (0-4), the SWC (0-2, although a good game by
   A&M), the Big East (2-2, with the 2 wins against some of the poorer bowl
   teams, and the 2 losses being very lopsided by the conference's #1 and #2
   teams).  They performed as well as the Pac-10 (3-1, with an impressive
   Arizona win, a good Cal win against a poor Iowa team, a USC half-game win,
   and a UCLA loss), and the SEC (a dominating performance by Florida, a
   very good game by Alabama, but unimpressive efforts by UT and UK).  Only
   the Big Eight was really more impressive in their bowl games, and two of
   those wins (KSU, Colorado) were against WAC teams, while Oklahoma played
   a Texas Tech team that just barely qualified for a bowl bid.

   I certainly don't think the Big Ten was a dominant conference in any sense
   of the word, but they performed as well this year as any other conference
   in the land.

    WAitaminute Tommmy, weren't you saying the Big 10 were going to come up
    Big Losers to whomever the PAC-10 sent to the Rose Bowl?  I would think
    that at least in your mind that the Wisconsin win was an upset.

>     Fat chance. PSU's win over Tennessee was impressive but the fact that
>     you can legitimately call Wisconsin's lucky win over a lower rated 
>     UCLA team, that came in with three losses, a "sizable upset" speaks for
>     itself.
    
    What was the point spread that was oh-so-important *before* the game was
    played (when it was previously so notable that 5 of the 7 Big-10 teams 
    were underdogs in the bowls).  What was the final score?  What happened 
    to "one of the best teams in the country" that we were supposed to see, 
    playing on its home field?
                
    glenn
     

    Lat time I checked Tommy, turnovers were part of the game.

    re: .470,.473,.476
    
    Sounds a tad like 'spoiled-sportitus' to me!!
    
    I think turnovers is part of the game and not external to it.  I
    watched the game over on tape and four of those turnovers were
    excellent defensive plays.  The defense made those turnovers.
    Yeah, the other two were give-aways.
    
    My superficial perception of your replies is that they are so one-
    sided that they really don't warrent a whole lot of credibility.
    For example, in my replies at least I admitted that UCLA coughed the
    ball a lot and that UW's defense bends A LOT.  The absence of any
    thing remotely close to balance speaks for itself.
    
    My honest view of the game is that perhaps 7 out of 10 times UCLA
    would win, but UW played a gutsy scrappy game.  Let's also include
    that some here in this topic rated UCLA an excellent team despite 
    their record and even considered them a dark horse challenge should
    there be a playoff.
    
    Finally, that one play really did change the complexion of the game.
    With 7 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, Wisconsin lost its best deep
    threat as well as a blocking back who Alvarez considers a Sunday
    running back.  You simply cannot lose two caliber players like that
    and play the same offense.  Wisconsin's offense went down more than a
    couple notches after losing those two guys.  I have the tape.  More
    often than not, Wisconsin went up and down the field almost as capably
    as UCLA until that play and the loss of those two key guys.  In
    addition, that guy was offsides and it should have been 1st and goal
    from the five.
    
    Take away that play and make the right call and the game could have
    been a BLOWOUT.
    
    I would have liked to see something at least remotely close to balance.
    Something like "Hats off to the Badgers."  For the talent they had,
    they played their hearts off.  As Alvarez said, "Michigan and Ohio
    State have better players, but we have a better team."
    
    At the very least, Wisconsin squeezed everything out of that team 
    and laid it all out on the field perhaps as well as anybody else 
    has this year.
    
                                                     Tony

    >    Mike Heiser would be proud of such excuse-making.  The final rankings 
    
    Glenn, sounds like a p-name bet is in order here!

    Tommy, (welcome back btw) as a PAC fan I find your defense honorable,
    but it all begs the question why others aren't given the same slack
    when using the same defense in other sports.

>       Don't tell me that you didn't watch this game either and are once
>       again analyzing via SI and newspaper articles.  FYI, UCLA coughed
>       the ball up SIX TIMES. They thoroughly outplayed Wisconsin in the 
>       second half but seemed intent on giving this game away. Should have
>       been a UCLA blowout.     
    
    I saw the whole game.  It wasn't one-sided, not at all.  Total offense
    discrepancies are not uncommon when one team leads the other for almost 
    the entire game, and that team also controls the running game and field
    position.  I know that at one point, I believe after three quarters and
    not long after Wisconsin had its two offensive players ejected (at the
    end of a drive that would have yielded points had not the officials
    blown the offsides call), the offenses were nearly dead even.  Brent
    Moss ended up with almost 160 yards rushing and the number two guy 
    Fletcher must have had another 60-70.  Wisconsin did a very good job 
    running the ball in mounting a good-sized lead.
    
    This "should have won" argument is not only unbecoming but misleading, 
    as in this particular game both teams can lament missed opportunities.  
    Sure, UCLA *could* have won the game; there was an opportunity there.  
    But Wisconsin also held a 21-10 lead in the 4th quarter that might 
    have been 28-10 without the missed call; then with two key players 
    missing they sat on the ball for most of the 4th quarter and still 
    were only a yard away on a time-consuming final series from completely 
    exhausting the clock without ever having to endure any real threat to 
    the final result.  I could just as easily say that had UCLA won it 
    would have been a significant chokejob by Wisconsin as they pretty much 
    controlled the game while building the lead.  The bottom line is the 
    final score.    
            
    glenn
    

    Well, I guess I'd just better head on over to the crow note and
    apologize for the Big-10's overratedness in only delivering bowl wins 
    from each of its top four teams, showing three teams with 10-win 
    seasons, and posting three Top-10 finishes.  Clearly, if the conference 
    had only boasted a team with a season like UCLA's, where in losses to 
    Cal, Arizona St., and Wisconsin they were only beaten because of 
    devastating injuries, turnovers, stupid penalties, dropped passes in 
    the endzone, and bonehead decisions on final drives, it would then be 
    deserving of some respect.  There's no substitute for being flashy, win
    or lose!
    
    glenn
      

    tommy,
    	wasn't that tech bball loss back in 1967?  Or have they won the
    emass title since then?  Of course in '67 they won the Class A
    championship over English.
    
    Bill

So Tommy, what did you think of FSU in the Orange Bowl??

The Crazy Met

>        <<< Note 20.488 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>
>    
>       Get all proud 'bout them wins over BYU and NC State, Waugawoman. It'd
>       be pretty much in keeping with your season long crowing about out-of-
>       conference wins over marginal teams.

        And look at the Pac 10, wins over Utah and Iowa make up 67% of
        their bowl wins.  Not much better, if you ask me.
    
>                                        And spare me the spiel about
>       how hard the loss of two offensive players was to Wisconsin.
>       It was you yourself who said that depth was part of the game
>       when UCLA lost to Arizona State when they didn't have their 
>       starting qb.
    
	Actually, Wisconsin doesn't need excuses.  UCLA had to come up
	with excuses to explain their LOSS, which ended their 8-4 season,
	against the 10-1-1 Badgers.  Unfortunately, most people who watched
	the game recognize that UCLA really wasn't any better than Wisconsin.
	[Not any worse, either; they appeared to be about even, to me.]

>       It was you yourself who said that depth was part of the game
>       when UCLA lost to Arizona State when they didn't have their 
>       starting qb. I guess only you can use those excuses as you see 
>       fit.
    
    As the man said, it's called a "W", as in "Winner", as in "Wisconsin".
    Ain't no need for me to resort to excuses in my analysis of both the 
    Rose Bowl and of the overall quality of the Big-10 this year (consistent 
    with everyone else's I've seen so far including the national media and
    coaches; except yours, of course).  It's your credibility that's taking 
    the beating when your response to the simple truthful statement that the 
    conference so clearly represented itself well in the major bowls (in 
    spite of your earlier predictions that they wouldn't) is "get real".  
    Obviously your mind was made up beforehand that you would be maintaining 
    company with the crowd you so enjoy directing to the Whiny Sore Losers 
    note, regardless...   
    
    glenn
    

      Yup, Wisconsin won and people who know far more about the
      game placed them at #5 and #6 and UCLA who knows where!!
      
      While UCLA stopped UW now and then, there were times when
      Badger might was easily seen by the neutral observer.  Such
      as their late first half drive that ended in the missed FG
      and the 2nd half drive that ended on the 11 (which started
      at about the UCLA 15).  Fletcher cranked out that 30+ yard
      run and Moss had several runs in the 8+ area.
    
      This year, Wisconsin's typical performance is for the run
      to steadily improve through the course of the game.  Chances
      are solid that had Montgomery and Deramus not been hurt, UCLA
      wouldn't have ever been in striking distance.  By then, Wisconsin
      dominance would have been seen in that the holes would have
      been wider and the runs would have been longer.
    
      A lot of people said that Tennessee was playing as well as
      anybody and some have said that UCLA would be potential champ
      should there have been a playoff.  Penn State whupped Tennessee
      and Wisconsin beat UCLA at their home field usually running right
      through them.
    
      Even had UCLA won, Wisconsin would have at least done respectable
      in my book (it would have been close) and only 'woulda, 'shoulda,
      and 'coulda's can say otherwise.
    
      As Joe Friday would say..."Let's just stick to the facts!"
                                     

      By the way Glenn...I like your replies!!
    
                                              Tony 

      Correction to .492...Montgomery and Deramus kicked out (not
      hurt)

    TCM, we love your replies too.

    
    I only wish that the late great original defender of the Big-10, MrT, 
    had been here to share in this glorious moment... hell, for years and 
    years MrT would defend the mettle of the Big-10 even when it was 
    obvious that the conference was subpar, and every year the result in
    the Rose Bowl would be the same... somehow somewhere someway he must be
    smiling, but with a touch of sadness over Indiana's fate... sniff...
    
    glenn
    

    >>      <<< Note 20.500 by FRETZ::HEISER "no, I'm very, very shy" >>>
    >>                               -< SNARF >-
    
    SNARF=Smartassed Noter Acquires Reply Five-hundred
          -          -     -        -     -
    
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    

    I snarfed a 10000 reply in another conference yesterday.

    I thought the PAC and Big-8 had the most wins in bowls this year (both
    were 3-1).  Only the Big-8 don't count because they beat 2 WAC teams to
    get their record.

    >      You really live on the edge don't you, Mikey?
    
    That's right, there's no stopping me now.  I think I'll break the speed
    limit on the way home too!!!

>          Spare me, soccer weenie. It'd take more than wins over NC State
>          and BYU, with lowly BYU taking the Big 10 co-champ down to the 
>          wire, and a damned lucky win over UCLA to convince me that the
>          Big 10 is anything more than its usual overrated self. 4-3. Big
>          flippin' deal. One game over five hundred.     
     
           It would have to be a pretty good conference to see it's
           seventh and eighth place teams make it to bowl games.  Which
           other conference could have sent their 7th and 8th place teams
           to bowls and come away with victories ?  The Pac 10 - HAH !
           The ACC ?  The Big Eight ?  No, not even the SEC this year.
           Nor could the Big Ten.  Not really the best test of the conference,
           to an impartial observer (which of course you are not).

Other than the Junk Note what got to 10000 - I assume it was something
in ::soapbox - sorta a full notesfile equivalent of note 27.

The Crazy Met

>>    I snarfed a 10000 reply in another conference yesterday.


	This guy needs a real job!


	billl

    
    Estimates were that about 70,000 cheeseheads were at the game.  For
    years, PAC10 fans pointed to the Rose Bowl as proof of its dominance
    over the Big10.  This year, we PAC10 fans need to sleep in the bed we
    made.
    
    brews 

>          Spare me, soccer weenie. It'd take more than wins over NC State
>          and BYU, with lowly BYU taking the Big 10 co-champ down to the 
>          wire, and a damned lucky win over UCLA to convince me that the
>          Big 10 is anything more than its usual overrated self.
    
    That's where PSU's whupping of Tennessee comes in, plus the final poll
    rankings, plus the computer rankings, plus the internal depth of the 
    conference this year, plus those overrated non-con schedule (unlike most 
    teams in most conferences, at least the Big-10 plays one) victories over 
    BC, USC, Kentucky, Washington, Wash St.  Pretty much the entire picture 
    'cept for the sour grapes impressions of one UCLA fan...
    
    glenn
    

    Except in UCLA's case the Rose Bowl is literally its home field,
    the playing surface it is used to and on which it has developed as 
    a team, and not just the equivalent of a home field.  Wisconsin and 
    most of the Big-10 play on artifical turf.  But who cares; it's 
    still just more mitigating excuse-making...
    
    glenn
      

    TCM, no it wasn't soapbox either.

Hey Tommy,

Get yer butt over to the crow note and have a sample of the bird. Or should we
start a seperate whining sore loser note for faux PAC-10 fans who predict
certain victory over Big 10 schools and then think up more excuses than the
Dean and phoenix crowd combined when it doesn't happen?

quit yer bitchen and take the loss like a man. 

Metz

    -.1
    Hear hear! 
    
    Lookout - NW almost took out Glenn and the Robinettes last night. Looks
    like the B10 is the best top to bottom the best Hoops conference too!
    
    As if we didn't already know that...
    
    Murph

    I'd have to put the PSU whipping of Tennessee into the category of
    rewarding underachievement.  I mean, if this team was so good, how come
    they got beat so many times?  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    For the record the B10 schools boast 2 FB MNC in the last
    10 years 8-)  No more for them now that they have to play
    in a real conference.
    
    Who wouldn't win a MNC getting to play 
    Wake, Duke, NC ST, Clempsun, G Tech, NC, UVa every year...
    
    And we all know G Tech was as good in 90 as West Virginia was this
    year - undefeated in the regular season. Only they didn't get a
    premium bowl opponent...
    
    Murph

>    I'd have to put the PSU whipping of Tennessee into the category of
>    rewarding underachievement.  I mean, if this team was so good, how come
>    they got beat so many times?  
    
    Where "so many" == twice (a 10-2 record), to Ohio State and Michigan, 
    two conference opponents who I believe are superior to Penn St. (I 
    think if you look at the final records, the whole season, and the 
    head-to-head beating PSU took from OSU that the Buckeyes should be 
    ranked ahead of them; I'm a Penn St. fan but I'm objective enough 
    to admit that).  In the non-conference ledger it was 2-0 against USC 
    and Tennessee; no underachievement there...
    
    glenn
     

 >> Get yer butt over to the crow note and have a sample of the bird. Or 
 >> should we start a seperate whining sore loser note for faux PAC-10 
 >> fans who predict certain victory over Big 10 schools and then think 
 >> up more excuses than the Dean and phoenix crowd combined when it doesn't 
 >> happen?

    No, you should start a note for mopes, like you and Waugawoman, who think 
    six turnovers is a thought up excuse. Six turnovers, man. Six turnovers 
    and they still brought this game down to the wire.
  

>    No, you should start a note for mopes, like you and Waugawoman, who think 
>    six turnovers is a thought up excuse. Six turnovers, man. Six turnovers 
>    and they still brought this game down to the wire.
    
    You weren't complaining about turnovers after the Arizona-UCLA game
    when Arizona fell apart, or after the close call against mighty 
    Oregon St., or after Rob Mitchell threw that stupid interception at 
    the goal line in the USC game.  Instead, we heard something about a 
    UCLA's terrific "ball-hawking" defense.  UCLA led the country in 
    turnover differential and was still only 8-3 with two close calls.
    Now suck it up and be a main about it...
    
    glenn
    

   >> Instead, we heard something about a UCLA's terrific "ball-hawking" 
   >> defense.  UCLA led the country in turnover differential...

      Gee, do you think one's got anything to do with the other, Professor
      Whipple? No sense in beating this dead horse, "Last Word" Waugaman.
      Ain't no one gonna convince me that Wisconsin wasn't lucky or that
      the Big Ten ain't mediocre.    

================================================================================
Note 37.246                       PAC-10 Sports                       246 of 321
MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!"            11 lines   1-NOV-1993 14:33
                       -< Luck is the residue of design >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  >> UCLA is not as good as they looked Saturday night - every break 
  >> went their way. 
          .
          .
          .
     I wouldn't fancy their chances against the 'Noles or the Irish but
     they are every bit as good as they looked Saturday night and better.
     They made their own breaks. 

================================================================================
Note 37.244                       PAC-10 Sports                       244 of 321
MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!"            19 lines   1-NOV-1993 13:42
                                    -< ex >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          .
          .
          .
      All of the talk about a strong Big Ten seems to center around five 
      or six teams with wins over mediocre non-conference foes and wins over 
      the weak sisters within the conference. I doubt as many as six team 
      will get bowl invites but the four or five that do will probably get 
      severe reality smacks when the play the Tenessees, UCLAs and such of 
      college football.

 If I pretend that I'm convinced will you shut up?

    Doesn't work that way, Tommy.  I pretended I was convinced about the
    Bulls and it didn't help.

which teams in the Big10 have won MNC in the last 10 years?
btw Penn State doesn't count, if that is what you meant.

The Crazy Met

    >                          -< I'm shut up, already... >-

      I suppose I should know, but what does 'MNC' mean???
    
      Well, I suppose its time to let bygones be bygones.  What
      say we all sing the Wisconsin fight song and salute their
      fine season?  ;-)
    
      Anyway Tommy, I wasn't looking for you to change your mind,
      I was just looking for something outside of black or white.
      There's shades of grey you know.  A truly neutral, unbiased
      person would have found at least something good to say about
      Wisconsin or the Big 10.  I've said more than one good thing 
      about UCLA...
    
                                               Tony

HtH,

The Crazy Met

    Now that the conference season is under way, I had to mention my Gophs
    annilihation of the Cheeseheads on Wednesday night.  Gophs stomped
    'Sconnie 90-53 and played their best half of bb since the 108-80
    drubbing of IU three years ago.  Gophs only led by nine at the half,
    but shortly into the second half they blazed about three three-pointers
    in a row and the lead was over 20.  From there it just got worse for
    Wisconsin, with the Gophs opening it up to 38 and winning by 37.  The
    Gophs played about as well as they can and the Badgers probably as bad
    as possible.  
    
    Welcome to the Big 10 Griffith... 3 points.  (He'll be a good one
    eventually, tho.)
    
    
    Spud

      Yeah, Wisconsin sure got whipped, didn't they?
    
      By the way, did the SI following the bowl games mention the
      Rose AT ALL???
    
      I browsed through it and could not find one single mention
      of thet game.
    
                                                  Tony

    I did like the Wisconsin crowd at the Rose. Where'd they get those
    grest "Cheesehaid" headgear?
    
    Poifect,
    MikeL
    

just the picture inside the cover...they found space to mention just about
everything except the rose bowl...and the article on the mythical was one of
the lamest attempts at vieled humor I've ever read...

You'll see some letters to the editor about the lack of a story on the Rose I'm
sure...


Metz

    Spud -
    
    Beating Wisconsin doesn't count if'n you lose to Penn State.
    Go directly out of the polls, do not pass go, do not collect
    200 dollars. Nice win the Badgers vs. Purdon't might have kept
    Purdue from hopping to #1-#3 somewhere.
    
    Right now, with the way Henderson played today, IU might be the
    team again. At least Illinois finally won a road game even though
    it was feeble OSU.
    
    Murph
    

    You be right about that.  It's really frustrating and disgusting how
    Clem has never been able to get the Gophs to play well on the road.  At
    home that have consistantly been one of the toughest teams in the
    country and can beat anybody... ANYBODY, but on the road they turn into
    wimps.  I saw most of the PSU game and there was a marked team personality 
    difference.  They were very tenative and didn't drive to the hoop
    anything like in the Wisconsin game.  They let this deceased actor (Don
    Amechi) just kill them inside.  The Gophs centers were non-existant.
    
    As it stands the Gophs will likely go about 8-1 at home (or possibly
    9-0) but on the road they pull their usual 3-6 or 2-7.  Still they
    should finish 11-7/10-8 and be selected to get in the NCAA's.   One
    good thing is that for some reason they play well on "neutral" courts,
    so they have a chance to do well in the NCAA's.  
    
    Meanwhile, we'll continue to be baffled by Clem and his "road
    warriors."  
    
    
    Spud 

    IU downs Michigan's Fab 4+...
    

    2nd half clinic by the Hoosiers.  Normally I'd be enclined to talk
    about how Bob has officials thoroughly intimidated (he just glares at
    'em and they change calls), but Michigan played about as horrendous a
    half as you can play.  Horrid shot selection.  Worse team defense.
    
    Had to laugh when Billy Packer starts 2nd-guessing BobKnight.  Like,
    Billy, does your gargantuan-sized ego even have room to *really*
    believe you know more about basketball than Bob????  Haw haw haw!!!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    I had been wondering if Amaechi (a muscular but very raw English 
    guy who came out of nowhere, because that's the only place PSU is
    allowed to recruit from) was still at Penn State or if he had moved 
    on.  I think the guy might be 26 years old or something by now.  Oh 
    well, at least Penn State picked up their minimum requirement of one 
    Big-10 upset win per season.  Still smarting over that Bob 
    Knight-intimidated referee hosejob from last season, though...
    
    glenn
    
     

    glenn, don't even bring up that call.  It raises my blood pressure and
    brings on all sorts of psychosomatic disorders.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Indiana free throw margin yesterday - 36-10.
    
    NAZZ

    What did Rose or whoever it was do to get a T with 8 seconds to go?
    

    In contrast to the *ugly* Florida > Kaintucky game last night, Purdue
    and Indiana played one WHALE of a game!  In fairness to the Hoosiers
    they appeared somewhat fatigued, yet still managed to take the 'makers
    into OT.
    
    Glenn Robinson is the best there is in the college game.  The kid
    Roberts completely and totally shut down Damon Bailey.  Quite an effort
    - Bailey couldn't even touch the ball, let alone get off a shot.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Michigan reportedly will be without King and Howard tonight vs. the
    Gophs due to chicken pox.  No other details.
    
    The Jeckell and Hyde Gophs should win it rather handily in that case.
    
    
    Spud

    what a scream!  KJ has the chicken pox as well and had to be
    quarantined from the Suns since there are others who haven't had it
    yet.
    
    Mike (who got chicken pox at the age of 25)

Did Penn State beat Purdue?? I saw they had a lead.

The Crazy Met

    Yo Craze,
    I think glenn alluded to that, no??
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

I was asking Glenn for clarification - if that was what he was whooping about.

The Crazy Met

    Mean Gene throws one away. Robinson is a true stud. Too bad they have
    nothing else but role players. Michigan is in good shape with 2 big
    road wins (UI/PU). 
    
    Murph
    

    
    Did I hear correctly from a co-worker that Indiana made a nice comeback
    to victory last night against Ohio St. after FatBob got bounced from 
    the game?
    
    glenn
    

>    Did I hear correctly from a co-worker that Indiana made a nice comeback
>    to victory last night against Ohio St. after FatBob got bounced from 
>    the game?
    
Isn't that a bona-fide Hoosier tactic?  Gene Hackman did it in the movie,
getting himself tossed out on purpose, and his team won the game, when
Dennis Hopper did "bad things, man" to the other team.....    

	Re -1, heard on the radio that in went into OT.  Bob was ejected
	for "disagreeing" with the officials.

	BTW, Does anybody from Big 10 (11) land know why Iowa is doing so
	poorly this year?  I know they beat #22 Minnesota last night, but
	why aren't they doing better?  Is Dr. Tom losing is recruiting
	ability?


	Kevin

	Knight got his first T arguing over a no-call when Todd Leary tried
	to take a charge and got an inadvertent elbow in the face for his
	trouble.  The no-call looked like the right "call" to me.   Ted
	Hillary gave him the T; Knight seems to have some sort of feud
	going with Hillary this year.  He got the second T a couple of 
	minutes later during a time-out and was gone.  Whether or not it was 
	intentional, Knight getting tossed is probably the only reason 
	Indiana was able to come back for the W.   They played with no 
	emotion up to that point.

	More importantly for the Hoosiers, Brian Evans dislocated his
	shoulder again, and it looked like a non-contact injury on the
	replay.  You have to wonder now if they won't go ahead and do
	surgery, and if he won't probably be out for the season.

tom

    I saw the Ohio State - Indiana game last night.  OSU got robbed.  That
    was one of the worst officiated games I've seen in a long time.  Pat
    Knight had probably the game of his career scoring something like 28
    points.  He was on fire from three point land in the second half.
    
    IU apparently lost Brian Evans to a separated shoulder.  That's the
    second time this year.
    
    - Rope

Bob,

	You only think Ohio State got robbed because you were watching a
	feed of the Ohio State telecast, hence Ohio State announcers.
	Absolutely the whiniest two guys I've ever heard.  The only 
	blatantly bad call I saw in Indiana's favor was the rebounding
	foul on Lindemann that wasn't called, and that was more than offset
	by the hanging on the rim that even the OSU announcers said should
	have been called on Funderburke, but wasn't.

	But then, what do UK fans know about basketball? :^)


tom

Rope thinks that the only way IU can win is by cheating.

The Crazy Met

    Got another blatant one for you Tom.  How 'bout the NON-call on Damon
    Bailey late in the game?  It was obvious from the replay that he sent
    Skelton into the next zip code with a blatant push-off.  Right after
    the push-off, he drove to the basket and was fouled to complete the
    three-point play.
    
    Those OSU announcers have guts.  They told it like it is.  Takes a real
    man to stand up to the BULLY Bob Knight in Bloomington.  Seriously
    though, that was one of the more objective broadcasts you'll ever see.
    
    - Rope

Bob, Bob, Bob,

	'bout time for that checkup to get the old eyeglasses replaced,
	isn't it?  The replay of the play you mentioned CLEARLY showed
	that Skelton tried to jump around Bailey at the same time that 
	Bailey went to the hole, hence he ended up guarding air.  With
	nobody (and no body) to brace himself against, he went to the 
	floor.

	I know you too well to believe you thought that broadcast was
	objective.  The funniest thing was that, after 39.5 minutes of
	complaining that no fouls were getting called on the Hoosiers,
	they were force to whine at the end that the officials DIDN'T
	call a foul on Charles Macon when the Buckeyes "wanted" one.

tom

                      
    I didn't see the game, but judging from the tone of the report in
    yesterday's paper, the BobRefs were back again this year working the 
    Indiana-Penn State game Saturday in State College.  Apparently Penn 
    State was on the fast break looking to cut the lead to two with a few 
    minutes left, when time was stopped as a_IU player had lost a contact 
    lens on the other end.  Again, I didn't see the incident, it all could 
    have been very innocent, one of those contact lens injuries where it
    initially appears that the player in question has been shot.  I only
    mention it because the AP wire story made such a deal of the unusual 
    nature of this play... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Glenn,

	I saw the same wire report.  What really happened was that Graham went
	down underneath the basket and was laying face down on the floor.
	Penn State got the ball and was beginning to head up the court, but
	it was nowhere near a fast break.  When the official stopped play the
	ball was about at Indiana's free throw line, and IU's players were up
	the floor ahead of PSU's.  Once the ball got up the floor they
	would have been five-on-four, but they would have had to score out
	of their half-court offense.  I was surprised by the wire report's
	description of the rule for this situation; games I watch are 
	commonly stopped under similar circumstances.

tom

    Anyone know if Michigan beat Illinois last night?
    
    Merci,
    MikeL
    

    Michigan won its  ninth straight 79-70.

    Well Spud,
    
    Don't you wish MrT was around the office these days to explain
    this one away?.. Nah, never mind, he'd probably
    be spinning more than Tonya.
    
    MikeL
    

T, would probably be RON-NING if he was here today....Looks like Knight's
ego is going to cost them the Big Ten championship. I'm not sure even the
starters could have pulled this one out but they certainly could have
done better than the freshmen. I missed the first half, so what happened
to set Bob off like that?

mike

	This game did NOT cost Indiana the Big Ten championship, IMO.  That 
	was already gone.

	Hard to say what "set him off".  Henderson didn't do much early but
	force a couple of shots, and he sat the rest of the game.  Evans
	and Leary seemed not to be there either, although neither made any
	huge mistakes that I remember.  Bailey looked to me like he was
	playing well, at least offensively (had 12 early points), but he
	left with more than five minutes left in the 1st half and never
	returned.

	My GUESS, and it's only a guess, is that Knight thought they were
	playing just like they played at Illinois and at Michigan, two games
	where they were blown out, and decided he needed to send a message.
	Along with that their in the process of playing three games in six
	days, the tournament's coming up, and Pat Graham apparently is now
	reinjured, so he may have decided that combining that message with
	giving some players some rest in a game they were (seemingly) going
	to lose anyway made sense.  He certainly didn't seem that upset, 
	either during the game or in the post-game news conference.

	Of course, maybe he was just ticked off and/or pulling a Byrdsong.

tom

>	This game did NOT cost Indiana the Big Ten championship, IMO.  That 
>	was already gone.

	You're probably right Tom, but he cost them any chance at all to
        win the title by giving away yesterday's game. As you say the 
        starters probably would have lost yesterday anyways Minnesota was
        definately firing all clyinders but we'll never know. If they catch 
        fire and come up big in the NCAA's than yesterday's message will be 
        deemed a brillant piece of strategy. Given Knight's affection for the
        Big Ten title, I found yesterday's action somewhat out of character.
        We've seen him bench starters before to start the second half but I
        can't recall him ever benching all five.

 mike

    You know, as I was first tuning in the game on radio and the score was
    announced 84-38 Gophs, I immediately thought of MrT.  I thought back a
    few years ago when the Gophs kicked IU at the Barn by nearly 30.  The
    great response by MrT was that IU had cut a 30 point deficit to 19 in
    the second half.  That was a victory for him.  I wondered (and still
    do) what good he would have come up with from yesterday - because you
    just know he'd have found a way.  Pretty amusing.  I wish I coulda been
    watching the game with him.  Gophs up 32 at the half and kicking butt
    in every phase of the game.
    
    As for FatBob, he said the game was over after the first ten minutes so
    it didn't matter who was in the game for them.  I heard him Sunday
    morning with his favorite butt-kissing Minneapolis columnist and he was
    complaining about the three games in six days, etc.  So my feeling is
    yes, the game was over and he wanted those guys to rest.  He was also
    "sending another message" but as McGuire and Packer were saying,
    there's a point to sending messages and that was embarrassing, even for
    me as a Gopher fan to watch.  At some point you have to say it's going
    to do more harm than good to let this continue.
    
    
    Spud

    So, coach Knight, feeling a bit STUPID today???  Knight claimed Sunday
    that he pulled his starters because Michigan essentially had the
    conference title wrapped up with a 1 game lead and 4 TO PLAY!  Pssssst,
    Bob, check the papers - Michigan was upset by Wisconsin last night!
    
    Maybe next time you'll try a bit harder when your team falls behind on
    the road!  Instead of being tied for 1st, you sit in 2nd a game back.
    
    - Rope

	Interesting, Bob...er...Rope.  I've read several stories with Knight 
	saying he believed the game was over with 10 minutes left in the 
	first half, but NONE where he said he pulled his starters because
	the game was over.  In fact, he specifically said, in response to
	the question "Did you call if off?" in the post-game press conference:
	"I don't ever call if off.  I always have some reason."  I went over
	some of my guesses as to what I believed the reason or reasons might
	have been in an earlier note.  In fact, two of the five starters 
        played in the second half; Lindemann ended up with thirty-five 
        minutes; Henderson was out of the game long before the "it's over" 
        mark; and Bailey asked to be taken out of the game because of the 
        flu (which, by the way, kept him out of practice the next day).  Would
	the game have been closer if Henderson and Evans had played more?
	Absolutely.  Do I care at all whether they lose by 1, or 5, or 19, or
	50?  Absolutely not.  The only excellent loss is one the other guy 
        walks away with.

	Now, if you want to live in a fantasyland and believe that IU had a 
	shot at that game without Graham and Bailey, go right ahead.  But I'm
	comfortable with a coach with 3 national championships and the guts 
        to coach the game HIS way.   

tom

    >> I've read several stories with Knight saying he believed the game
    >> was over with 10 minutes left in the first half...
    
    According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, UM held a 25-19 lead with 10:07
    left in the first half.  I'd hardly call a 6 point lead insurmountable,
    but as you pointed out, coach Knight said, "The game was over after
    about 10 minutes."  Even after they were down by 19, the game wasn't
    over as UK has proved time and time again.
    
    Further, Knight contradicts himself rather nicely following the win
    over Illinois Tuesday by saying "What difference would it have made
    trying to come back and pushing everybody to the hilt?"
    
    Which is it Coach Knight, was the game over when IU was down by 6 or
    did you just not want to push the boys too hard?  
    
    I agree a loss is a loss be it by 1 or 50.  I'd just rather a team play
    hard from start to finish than roll over and die.
    
    - Rope

	I'm having a little trouble understanding what's bothering you.

	If you're saying Indiana rolled over and died, you apparently didn't
	watch the same game I did.  Looked to me like they played pretty
	hard most of the game.

	If you're saying you disagree with who was on the floor, there are
	a couple of possibilities:

		1.  You believe Indiana has the kind of team that can come
		    back from a major deficit on the road.  (And please 
                    don't come back with some boring 10:07 statistic on this,
	            since one of the two players who are apparently in
                    question in your mind was on the floor after that.  The
                    six or seven minute mark in the first half is a more
	            accurate reference point).

                2.  You don't think they could have won the game, but you
                    think they should have tried to keep the margin lower
                    than 50.

	        3.  You don't think they could have won the game, but you 
                    think the team would have been better off long term
                    if Evans and Henderson had played significant (20? 30?
                    40?) minutes.

	Does one of these fit, or am I missing something?

tom

    It's a moot point.  We will never know whether IU could've won the game
    because Knight closed shop with 10 minutes to play in the 1st half! 
    BTW, Knight was quoted with the 10 minute reference, not I.  Clearly
    it's a different game if he is interested enough in winning to play
    Henderson more than 6 minutes!  The announcers for IU afterwards were
    pretty humorous.  They were interviewing IU assistant coach Norm
    Ellenberger and were waxing philosophical about how IU never got into
    a "offensive flow"!  No kidding guys?  Pretty difficult when Henderson
    takes ONE shot and gets yanked, and Evans takes TWO shots and gets
    yanked.  I guess they figured out by last Tuesday's game with Illinois
    that one sure fire way to get into an offensive flow is to play your
    starters more than 6 minutes.
    
    >> If you're saying Indiana rolled over and died, you apparently didn't
    >> watch the same game I did.  Looked to me like they played pretty
    >> hard most of the game.
    
    I'll give 'em that.  The football player played his heart out.  Pat
    Knight not ever to be confused with an "impact" player also was
    stellar.  Knight never gave IU a chance to win this one.  Can't blame
    the kids he put on the floor with lack of effort.  
    
    - Rope

    Did anyone see the Purdue-Minnesota game last night? I caught the first
    half. Robinson is some player-definite POTY IMO. Minnesota is going to
    cause some problems in the NCAA's. Robinson still seems to committ a
    lot of cheap fouls which could cause a problem if Purdue gets referrees
    who call it close in the tournament.

    I saw it.  As a Minnesota fan, it's frustrating to see them lose on the
    road again, but I did see some good signs.  Solid offensive rebounding
    and hanging in a game many teams would have been blown out of.  Purdue
    was nailing threes left and right, yet there were the Gophs hitting the
    boards, working it inside and clawing back.  The score got a little
    spread out at the end due to all the FT's Purdue shot.
    
    Despite the Gophs Big10 road problems, that hasn't seemed to affect
    them come tourney time the last 3-4 years.  I look for them to play
    well and win at least their first two games.
    
    
    Spud

    Boilers on top in BigTen dumping Michigan.
    
    IU gets toasted by OSU.. Anyone know IU's Big Ten record?
    
    MikeL
    

    Do you think Glenn Robinson will get Steve Fisher's vote as POTY?
    

	re: .578

	Hoosiers are 11-5 in the conference, 18-7 overall.

tom

    How many Big 10 teams will make the NCAA?
    
    High seeds: Purdue,Michigan
    In: Indiana,Minnesota
    Bubble: Wisconsin,Illinois,Michigan State
    
    This is my guess.

	Illinois is probably in.  Michigan State looks pretty good if they
	finish strong, especially if they can get a win over Indiana at 
	home on Wednesday.  Wisconsin is probably out, after looking pathetic
	at Northwestern over the weekend.  They've lost something like 6 out
	of their last 7.  They finish at Indiana, and probably have to win
	that one to have even a prayer of getting in.

tom

If Purdue and Michigan tie who wins the Big10?

The Crazy Met

    Didn't Purdue sweep head-to-head?

	Michigan won a close one at Purdue, but I don't know if the margin
	was greater than the 1-point Purdue win at Michigan.

tom

    Co-Champs. Automatic bid goes to head to head and then
    last trip to tourney. Irrelevant in this example.
    
    Illinois and MSU "clinch" bids with big wins tonight. Wisco
    keeps hope alive. NW's bid for the NIT shot in foot - must 
    win at Michigan to make it.
    
    Murph
    

    Did you see the look on the kid's face after the headbutt?  You could
    just read his mind.  :*)
    
    
    Spud

    OK, What happened besides IU getting blasted by MSU?
    
    MikeL
    

         <<< Note 20.589 by CTHQ::LEARY "It'sBeenALongTimeComing..." >>>

>>    OK, What happened besides IU getting blasted by MSU?
    
>>    MikeL
    
    Sherron Wilkerson, a freshman point guard had thrown up an air-ball
    from 3 point land before being yanked from the game.  Knight walked up
    to the seated Wilkerson and proceeded to give him a "HEAD-BUTT". 
    Wasn't a gentle one either from the TV reports.
    
    Most everyone knows my feelings towards Bob Knight the person.  I'll
    say only one other thing.  I would LOVE it if one of these players he
    accidently kicks, pushes or head-butts would lay him out.  It'd only
    need to happen once for Bob to change his ways.  Course the kid better
    be prepared to transfer rather quickly afterwards.
    
    - Rope
    

    
>    Knight walked up
>    to the seated Wilkerson and proceeded to give him a "HEAD-BUTT". 
>    Wasn't a gentle one either from the TV reports.
 
    Yeah, I saw it this morning.  Out at the Knight followers' compound
    it'll probably be labeled as "a_accident"...
    
    glenn
                                                             

>>    Yeah, I saw it this morning.  Out at the Knight followers' compound
>>    it'll probably be labeled as "a_accident"...
    
    He obviously "tripped" on his way to Wilkerson.
    
    - Rope
    
    

actually even SportsCenter commented that Knight might have tripped
on something. Just because Knight acts like a little child doesn't
mean that he might have tripped.

fwiw at teh press conference after the game no one asked about it; and
the media has never been that shy of knocking Knight - which is the way
it should be.

The Crazy Met

    	Was it a real haid-butt or one like Rodman got a suspension
    for (i.e. a phantom one)?
    
    				/Don

    I'm with ya on this one Rope.
    
    I'm I was that kid's father and sitting in the stands I would have
    spent the night in the slammer....
    
    ...............after putting Mr. Knight in the hospital of course.
    
    Maj

    What's the big deal about a headbutt?  Football players do it to each
    other all the time.

    
    >>    What's the big deal about a headbutt? 
                                      ^^^^^^^^^
    
    Yeah, just check out that thang between MAC's shoulders, then you'll
    SEE one.
    
    
    Uh-oh
    
    JaKe
    

    Dennis Rodman just got suspended for one.

    Perhaps ESPN had blown this head-butt out of proportion.  I've seen 
    nothing in the USA Today or Dayton Daily News about it.  Sure looked 
    convincing on tape.  You have to wonder however why nothing was said
    about it at the postgame conference or why the print media hasn't 
    written anything on it.
    
    - Rope

Rope (Jeez, that sounds strange),

	ESPN had it again on tape tonight, so I got a chance to see it.  At
the risk of being labelled an apologist, I thought it was clear that it was 
unintentional.  Not too surprised the legion of Bob-bashers would be out 
calling for his scalp, though.  If I was a Bob-basher, I suppose I would be 
too.

	Like many others I'm surprised Wilkerson didn't show more reaction.
On tape it looks like it must have hurt a lot, being right under the eye.  

tom