Conference foundr::firearms

    How about that Worcester, Mass 5 year old who brought a toy gun to
    his kindergarten class. I think they "suspended" him for three days
    based on the "no nonsense guns in school law" or similar wording.
    
    I think this is disgraceful, irresponsible behavior on the part or the 
    SCHOOL! Poor kid.
    
    This is the messages we are sending to our kids. "GUNS are evil"
    and carrying them makes you some kind of misfit/criminal.
    
    They should have treated it like any other toy in school.
    
    Boy does that push my buttons!!
    
    Tom

RE:  They should have treated it like any other toy in school.

I disagree...  there has been very some very passionate replys to several note
strings in this file with regards to kids playing with toy guns and pointing
them at other people, (which we know they will probably do...)

Some noters in here won't purchase, nor allow their children to play with, toy
guns.  You asking any school to treat them as if they are just another toy
smacks of hipocrisy...

However, do i think 3 days suspension is the answer? not hardly.

FWIW, Fra

    Hey, if that isn't bad enough, some 6 or 7 year old was suspended
    for bringing a "tiny" toy gun (from and action figure/doll - about
    the size of a quarter) to school.  Boy do I feel safe now!!!
    
    How does one embrace diversity with rules of ZERO tolerance?  I think
    the PC crowd needs a lesson in OXYMORONs!!!
    
    Roger   

    
     Hi,
    
     Our times are confusing. "We"have a very clear cut image of a firearm's
    place in society,with our,typical,decades of familiarity,with and use
    of a firearm. Some of us are responcible enough to train our young'ns
    the proper use of firearms,and pass on the "norms" we have held as
    truth and wisdom,pertaining to firearms. These young people have
    respect for not only firearms,but most likely the adult who was thier
    mentor.
     Some folks expect young people to have an inborn,genetically passed,
    information they just expect them to know something. Kids only know 
    what they are taught,by us or by a "friend". Firearms have always been 
    a source of facination for kids,they are in awe of there perceived power 
    and destructive capability,with "0" understanding of what they really are.
     The father of the household was the vessel of firearms knowledge from 
    which all the family could draw. Many households have no father in
    residence,other households have no perceived,interest,or need for a
    firearm,for whatever reason. Neither of these factors change the fact
    that kids are facinated by firearms,and will have access and contact
    with them at some phase in thier lives,reguardless of thier parents
    wishes,or genetic background,or political affiliation.
     The schools have two choices,"0" tolerance,due to ignorance of and
    inability to instruct on this subject.The other option should be obvious,
    they are in the education business. The Eddie the Eagle program could 
    fill the information gap in the schools,and do what was traditionally done
    in the home,by a more experienced,adult.
    
    Joe
    

    I think the reaction was simply a mindless exercise of authority.
    
    When I was growing up the neighborhood sports were cowboys and 
    indians and army. I don't remember one single mortality and the
    toys were pointed at kids probably, oh, a septillion times.
    
    A little thnking was definitely in order, but was abandoned for
    some reason.
    
    Chip
    

    
     Hi,
    
     Man that really brings back memories. My pre-teens were spent in a
    small town in West Virginia,not far from Charleston. Our street was not
    a through street so there was very little traffic,just people who lived
    there. One of my friends fathers was a State Policeman,and he had a
    Dewat Maxim,complete with the four point mount,and a Dewat Panzerfaust.
    Thats German for a Bazooka like weapon. When I look back at our playing,
    with these things,and thats why they were there as toys for us kids,I
    wonder how the same thing would be received now. My oh My,opinions and
    attitudes do change. Where are the fun,logical,and wise days of the
    50s. When he brought the things home,from god knows where,he sat all
    the kids,down on and around these things,and told us about them. What
    they used to be and what had been done to make sure they would never be
    used for that purpose again.
     Before I get a bunch of enquiries,I already went back to the old
    neiborhood,to find out what happened to them. Nobody knew,the family
    had moved away,and appearently taken them with them.
    
     Joe
    

<... and the toys were pointed at kids probably, oh, a septillion times.
    
   I won't go into any lengthy detail again as it's already in here at least
once, but the above scenario is one of my hot-buttons.  When I pointed my
toy guns at my brother, Dad kicked my butt good. The message was loud and clear,
you never point guns at people, not even toy ones.  Kids have limited capacity
to know the difference (look at the new S&W AirLite for instance) between 
what's real and what's not, what's dangerous and what's not.

   I tend to go ballistic when I drive down the road and some kid standing on
the side of the road is pointing a gun at me (I can only assume it's a toy 
from my vantage point.)

   There is a place in our society for toy guns, as much for a safe learning
tool as for fun and make-believe.  Either one without the other is tragic.

Al

Ahhh Gi'day...

    Here they are taking guns out of Museums - there is one place where
    they have replaced a historical gun collection with a video on the Port
    Arthur tragedy (so I'm told). I know the Sydney Powerhouse Museum have
    taken their gun collection out.
    
    There was talk that the new laws would make the traditional display of
    an artillary piece (usually a bofors AA type thing, or some field gun)
    outside Returned Services (Legions/Veteran) Clubs or in Memorial parks
    illegal. I don't know what has happened to this.
    
    Make no mistake about it - world-wide civilian disarmament is under
    way, and proceeding at a rapid pace. And the forces are getting cockey
    - they have already just about gotten a world-wide landmine ban. And
    now, it looks like they have gotten the mercenaries out of Papua New
    Guinea.
    
    Here we have a situation where a sovereign government hired a public
    company to train their inadequate troops to put down a revolt in one of
    their provinces under a police action. The press immediately branded
    them as mercenaries and now they are being flown out of the South
    Pacific.
    
    Ban of semi-auto's here, shutdown of the Military Rifle clubs (that's
    right - they were disbanded 6 weeks ago), no promise of continued
    access to military ranges after 1999, land-mine ban, mercenaries out of
    the South Pacific, total centrefire handgun ban in the UK, talk of
    bringing the same ban to Australia. What next...
    
    This threat cannot be under-estimated.          

    Al, a groundless "hot button", in my opinion.
    
    In fact, I'll go one better with my position and state that a) we're
    talking about kids playing a game. Was Battleship banned from your
    home too? Imagine doing an entire ship in with countless casualties,
    and b) the entire act of the game can provide a learning experience
    to kids. I firmly believe that parents own the responsibility for the
    "rights and wrongs" in this arena. Kicking a kid's butt for pointing
    a water pistol at another kid is over the top in my in book.
    
    It's always complicated when it comes to children, but the basis for
    creating an acceptable position (or even bias) is rudimentary for a
    parent.
    
    Chip

Chip,

    Have you had a S&W AirLite in your hand yet?  Can you honestly tell me 
that a kid under 11 or 12 is going to know that little 8 shot .22 revolver
is not a toy unless the kid is 1:) told it's real or 2:) fairly familiar with
the real thing.

    Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Al

    Yes, I have, but opted for the Mod. 36.
    
    Actually Al, you just emphasized my point. An 11 or 12 year old is well
    into an age of comprehension and understanding. 
    
    The question is "Where did the parent(s) fail to have put a child in
    that position?"                         
    
    Chip 

    I agree with Mr. Lafosse about the cultivation of bad habits such as
    pointing guns at people.
    
    As for the macro view of this phenomenon it's more smoke and mirrors. 
    He who lowers the bar, controls the dance.
    
    Boy am I on a roll today.
    
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X

    I agree that pointing guns at people is unacceptable. Children and toys
    are an entirely different thing.
    
    Chip

    As a child I was absolutely forbidden to point any firearm or replica at 
    anything I was not willing to kill.  The gun cabinet was at the head
    of the stairs, unlocked, with ammunition filling the lower shelves.  I
    had started using real guns at age 5 on targets, graduating about 8 to
    hunting red squirrels (unsupervised) with a .22 rf or 410 double gun.
    This was in the 1940's on a Maine farm.
    Different world I guess.

    I used to play war with my friends when I was in elementary school.  I
    had a Tommy gun and a .30 Browning with tripod!  I guess my father was
    thinking about his time in Europe when he bought me those toys.  We
    never discussed real guns as far as I can remember.  We always fought
    with imaginary enemies and I don't remember shooting at each other,
    although I believe not shooting at each other was just a coincidence.
    
    I have a friend who has been bringing his kids up with guns.  His son
    has fired more serious weapons than most people ever see.  All the way
    from .22 rf pistols to .50 Barretts and belt fed M79 grenade launchers.
    
    What's interesting is the fact that I've seen his son playing with
    assorted toys and sticks and on a very few occasions he pointed them at
    one of us.  Immediately after pointing them at us he became very self
    conscious and apologetic and stopped.  Judging from this I think
    training and appreciation for the real thing creates the awareness of
    what is right and wrong.  No one ever taught him to not point toys, he
    just felt uncomfortable doing it.
    
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X  

    Geesh!  Tell me you (all of us) have never shot at someone with a toy
    gun!  A deadly water filled squirt gun!
    
    I can remember playing army as a child. Pointing at and shooting my
    brother and cousins with toys and sticks made to look like guns. These
    days it's not PC to do, I can see the reasoning behind why we shouldnt
    point anything that even remotely resembls a firearm, at someone.
    
    I too think the school over reacted.
    
    Don

I guess my stand on this is that the school had every right to take the "toy"
away, and has my support for not wanting to deal with them, (read, any toy)
children are there to be educated, period...

I think it is the responsibility of every parent to educate children regarding
what they should /should'nt be doing in school.  do I think 3 days suspension
is over reacting? yes!!  regardless of what toy they confiscated?? yes.

To be honest, pointing guns as a child was outgrown very quickly... 
Unfortunately not because It was tought that it was wrong...  I grew 
up during the vietnam era and gi joes and playing army was second nature.  
Lack of "confirmed" kills is what probably put the kabosh on toy guns for 
us...  it became boring very quickly, as did gi joes etc...

WHat I've seen in here is many people jumping on bandwagons regarding pointing
toy guns at people.  If the majority says it's wrong people agree... if they say
the school was wrong they speak differently.  I think it's hypocritical.

Kids are at school to learn, not disrupt with toys.  Personally, i think the
parent are responsible...   My wife runs a nursery at a large Fitness center..
she is constantly dealing with children pointing guns and shooting kids...
she  is constantly telling them not to point guns at other people... based
solely on what has been said in here many times over.

again, 3 days suspensions is seriously overreacting.  as was the midol deal, 
tylenol etc. but i think the parents should be more responsible.



FWIW,

Fra 

>>Kids are at school to learn, not disrupt with toys.  Personally, i think the
    
    Just a minor nit .. according to the article - the kid took the toy to
    school to show a friend. He took it out of his backpack at lunchtime in
    the cafeteria showed it to his friend and his friend ran over and told
    a teacher about the gun/toy. The toy was confiscated on the spot.
    
     I agree that kids should not disrupt class with toys, but in this
    particular case it doesn't appear to be that way. You could also argue
    that part of learning invloves playing with toys and interacting with
    other kids.
    
     I think we have to be careful with beating on kids for playing with and
    aiming toy guns. It's fantasy. I think that kids do need to learn that real
    guns are not toys but to lump everything together can get sticky. Like
    someone mentioned earlier, what about the game battleship ? I think we
    need to give kids some credit too. Once shown , do kids really not know 
    the difference between a toy gun and a real one ? I can only speak from 
    my own experience but my son acts like a kid with toy guns, but he has a 
    healthy respect for real guns when he's shooting with me.  
    
     I've seen kids who were raised in families where toy guns aren't
    allowed, the 1st toy they grab at another house is the toy gun - and
    they start blasting away.
    
    Bob
    

so, it's okay to point all the new laser tag toys at people and shoot them? i 
believe that either those of you who state the never played cowboys and indians 
or gi joes as a child is liing because it's not pc to openly stae that you did 
or you led a severly restricted and regimental childhood.

it's part of what everyone is  talking about with funding and eddie the eagle 
and this and that to teach our kids the rules of guns before they even think 
about picking it up contradicitive of stating that one would never allow their 
kid  to play banks and robbers?

sorry, i don't swallow the line of reasoning some people promote here. my kids 
know that they are not to pick up any gun without confirming if it's first as 
they are well aware of how realistic some toy guns look and how toyish some real
guns look.

what happens when laser weapons become a real thing and gunpowder becomes passe?

btw: way too extreme on the punishment: a toy is a toy is a toy and the 
histerics that some of these _adults_ went through to drive home the evil gun 
theme is disgusting.

reg.

<so, it's okay to point all the new laser tag toys at people and shoot them? 

   No I don't think it's okay... It sends the wrong message to kids

<i believe that either those of you who state the never played cowboys and 
< indians or gi joes as a child is liing because it's not pc to openly stae 
<that you did or you led a severly restricted and regimental childhood.

   Never said I didn't play cowboys & indians or playing army. What I said was
   got my butt kicked if I pointed the gun at my brother, big difference!!

<sorry, i don't swallow the line of reasoning some people promote here. my kids 
<know that they are not to pick up any gun without confirming if it's first as 
<they are well aware of how realistic some toy guns look and how toyish some 
<real guns look.

    If your kids know guns and are educated about them, that's great. There
are lots of kids out there who are playing "guns" who've never seen a real one,
don't know the safety ritual.  As for those kids who do know firearms safety, I
fear that child MAY consider an unloaded gun as a safe gun and therefore the
handling rules can be relaxed a bit (it's never okay to point a loaded gun at a
person, but it MAY be okay to point an unloaded one), it can be treated like a
toy.

    I honestly hope I'm just paranoid.  Guns are dangerous toys if not handled
in a ritualistic way. Unless that ritual is preached and learned when the kid's
playing with his toy guns, then when???


Al

    -1 While playing with them? If a child is old enough to understand
       the concept while playing with a toy gun he is old enough to
       understand some concept of real guns. I believe it's a message
       that should be delivered early and often.
    
       By the way, I don't believe any toys belong in school unless
       specifically requested by a teacher or person of authority.
    
       Chip

guns are not toys, only toy guns.  

laser tag toys: all the boobtube commercials show kids (and parents) shooting 
each other with laser tag toys and that it's a fun game to play.

and yes, no toy belongs in school unless it's been specially requested/approved.

reg.

    
    
    
    
    Regarding the ,"do not point toy guns" comments, I and all of my
    friends played "combat" with very realistic toy guns well into 
    the fifth grade (10 yrs old). We blasted each other a million times!
    In contrast , 
    We began to own BB guns in the 2nd or 3rd grade. We knew the difference!!!
    No one EVER got hurt with a BB gun, althrough there were other incidents
    with:
    
    1. dirt bombs in the eye, (4 years and up)
    2. rocks through windows  (4 years and up) 
    3. sling shots which shot crabapples (sling shots were home made out of a 
    coat hangerand rubber bands) which where promply confiscated along with 
    punishment.(3-6 grade)
    4. Squirt gun incidents in school (especially during the last month of
    school) All were confiscated along with any marbles dropped on the
    floor.(3-6) grade.
    5. plenty of black eyes ( 5-9th grade)
    6. plenty of cuts and bruises on bicycles
       and there were two of three fatalitiess on my town around
       bicycles/tricycles struck by motor vehicles. (4-14 years old)
    7. experimenting with home made gunpowder and bombs (9-15 years old)
       one friend blew himself right into 6 months in the hospital using
       ingredients a fourth grader  can buy and any store and the proper
       mixture of Charcoal, Saltpeter, and Sulfur is right there in the 
       encyclopedia!!  then try adding the pool chlorine!
       In contrast there were zero injuries with "firecrackers"
    
    There are MANY things a lot more dangerous than toy guns!!
    I believe any kid who is over age 5 CAN BE TAUGHT the difference
    between daddy's stuff and toy stuff.
    
    I say let kids play. Not letting a kid play combat or cowboys 
    where they pretend shoot each other for fear that bad gun habbits
    will be irrevocably learned is like not letting the kid go on the 
    bumper cars at the fair for fear it will foster recless driving in 
    the future. ;)
    kids need to know that when you shoot a gun someone/thing dies!!
    You can't repeat that one enough.
    
    Also try this comparison:
    
    wherever the word "gun" is used substitute the word 
    "plugged in circular saw"
    wherever the term "toy gun" is used use the word " toy saw".
                                                             
    My conclusions: I would never leave a plugged in circular saw, exacto knife
    , or drill within a childs reach (or play area) pretty foolish no ?  
    And I have been using several power tools ALL WINTER LONG in my basement. 
    MY 4 year old wants to "help" and knows she can open the door and proceed 
    down stairs, but she's been taught is very, very dangerous, (she'll
    actually play with her dolls and scold them "not to touch, it's very,very 
    dangerous". Her job is not to touch, while my job is to keep em out of her
    reach or properly disconnected. I am 100%  certain she won't go down stairs
    with out me, but I must always asume she will.
    I can however guarentee that if I left a tool in her room she'd just have 
    to mess with it!
    
    I have given her play tools and she can imitate my cutting and sawing
    away. My point is she knows the difference between toys and real.
     Be them toy guns or toy saws.Both are tools.
    
    Would you want to suspend a 5 year old if she brought a toy power tool
    school for "show and tell"?
    
    -Tom
    

    
    Ok, what are the opinions here about paintball games? Personally
    I could never bring myself to sign up, I just can't handle the
    thought of someone hunting me.
    
    /Pat

    
    
    	I play paintball usually a couple of times per year (it's a bit
    expensive). It is great fun and really brings the rambo types down to
    earth when they get hosed by some 10yr old with a Tippman. :) We play
    at Canobie Paintball in Windham NH. Great place with mucho emphasis on
    safety and just plain having fun. You should give it a try....it's not
    as traumatic as one might think.
    
    	jim

I'll let you know. I'm trying it for the first time,
There is a place on chelton dr west of the citadel mall here 
in colo spgs. tuesday its buy 1 get 1 free admission. thursday 
is ladies nite(get in free) for $20/person reg price
you get 100 paint balls a semi pnuematic gun and get to play
continuous games (10-20 minutes each) they have gun upgrades 
for $5 more. vThey furnish full face gogles/shield sort
like a dirt bike racer's mask. My 10 year old daughter loves it
The paintballs really hurt when they don't break. And don't
get shot in the groin from 10 feet away. I saw it happen.
needless to say it wasn't pretty. Paintballs cost about 100/$6
and you have to use there ammo. the have qty discounts. 
1250/$60 and 2500/$100 I think. The previous reply was right on.
It is expensive. When you use a semiauto gun the paintballs 
come flying out quickly. they travel between 200-250 fps.

JC

    Good note Tom 15.89
    
    Paint ball is a blast!  I was not a Rambo type but felt very confident.
    All went very well for the first two games I played. I was in on the
    win in both. Then I decided to strike off on my own in the 3rd game
    (this is where Rambo entered :^).
    This was some years ago, before they had face shields, we did have lab
    goggles though. Head shots are not allowed, but accidents happen. I had
    a welt on my upper lip that lasted a week. Not to mention I had paint,
    up my nose and in my mouth!  Ouch!
    
    Don

Ahhh Gi'day...

    I've never played it, although you can play it here...
    
    Reality check - paint-ball guns are prohibited weapons here, so you can
    only play it under confined conditions, no practise at home, now.