Conference foundr::firearms

    I wonder how many calls for gun control we will see over this thing
    last weekend in L.A. given the fact that the Chinese arms dealer that
    was accused of selling or attemting to sell full-auto ak47's to L.A.
    gangs was one of then guys Clinton invited to coffee?
    
    fred();

    
    >re .19
    
     None! You think the talking heads want to confuse people with things
    like facts and truth about there beloved leader?
    
     Dave

    re .19
    
    Does anyone have the exact story on the Chinese automatic AK47's ??
    
    I have heard that these were semi auto and only machine guns by the
    BATF interpretation 'once a machine gun, always a Machine gun', ie,
    they were semi-autos built with ex-fullauto receivers..
    
    Also, is there any evidence that the guns were intended for street
    gangs, or is this just more 6oclock news hype?
    
    Randy
    
    
    
    

    
    A few months ago there were stories in the press that a Chinese arms
    dealer had been arrested for attempting to smuggle and sell full-auto
    AK 47s to the L.A. street gangs.  

    Recently among the stories of the "social" events at the Whitehouse,
    among the "attendees" was this one and same Chinese arms dealer.
    Whether his attendance was before or after his arrest I do not know.

    Contrast this to all the hoopla about the "October Surprise" where
    George Bush supposedly was taken in an SR-71 to Paris to meet with
    some Iranian arms dealer that no one could find or even name.

    fred();

1. NBC's hunky thirty-something Stone Phillips intoned ominously last
night that the LAPD's decision to rush into B & B guns and to ask the
FFL dealer there to loan them some AR-15s, (combat) shotguns, and
rifles equipped with telescopic sights and a ----load of magazines and
ammo was a violation of departmental policy. Not wanting to be a "sour
puss", I feel compelled to ask why the desperate cops did not have to
fill out BATF Form 4473s, CA state forms, and then wait for fifteen
days to take delivery of the firearms? What if a civilian being "hosed
down" by the bank robbers had entered B & B Guns and asked the owner if
he could borrow an AR-15 or a Benelli 12 gauge shotgun? (We know the
answer.)

2. Isn't it interesting that the very same guns so badly needed by 300
LAPD officers to fight back against two bad guys are the very same guns
CA Senators Boxer and Feinstein want to remove from the gun cabinets of
all law abiding homeowners who might not be able to call on * 298 armed
pals * for help during a home invasion? So, citizens "all alone" need
semi-auto black guns even more than cops do, cops who have back-up
everywhere! (This is a knee slapper to use! This comment will cause
much teeth grinding among freedom-haters.)

3. Will nobanners in CA press home the fact to the ill-informed media
that the perps were most likely firing rifles which had been altered
unlawfully to fire fully automatically, especially since the press
described one recovered rifle as a MAK-90? Golly gee, I hope that perps
didn't alter the rifles' thumbhole stocks or think about attaching
bayonets before they tried to rob the bank! (Wow, that would really
make some BATF bureaucrat cry like a baby.) These two morons were
modern day John Dillingers, merely heavily armed bank robbers, period.
Tell Wee Willie Williams, LAPD's Chief, to watch the movie "Bonnie &
Clyde" to learn that bank robbers carried fully automatic firearms
before World War II. Wake up, Chief Williams. That's a good Chief. Good
Chief. Now, sit. Stay.

4. Will CA nobanners enroll all LAPD officers above the rank of
Sergeant in an Eddie Eagle program so that a first grader can explain
to them that a 123 grain FMJ or JHP bullet from a 7.62 x 39 cartridge
is not a nuclear warhead? The nonsense I heard spouted about what 7.62
x 39 bullets could do had me reaching for neck high hip boots! Gee
whiz, what if the moronic bank robbers had decided to carry semi-auto
30-06 "deer rifles" instead of their relatively low-powered 7.62 x 39
"assault rifles" ... oops, Boxer and Feinstein will be aching to ban
"deer rifles" next, the weapons of choice of "orange-skinned bank
robbing hunters" who use the wrong kind of tanning lotion!

5. CA nobanners, please do not hesitate to hammer hard that Wee Willie
Clinton's coffee buddy and renegade Chinese arms dealer Wang Jun whose
illegal full auto AKs were seized by U.S. Customs in CA would have been
delighted with the cyclic rate of fire of the fully automatic Red
Chinese rifles/carbines used by the bank robbers! Drive the media
crazy. Call talk shows and write letters. Refer to the firearms used by
the crazed bank robbers as: "WANG JUN GUNS". Use the term "WANG JUN
GUNS" every time a media talking head or LAPD brass p.r. flack attempts
to slam the guns as "assault rifles". The term will make local
Clintonistas and White House press watchers foam at the mouth. WANG JUN
GUNS. WANG JUN GUNS. WANG JUN GUNS. Just keeping repeating the term and
linking the Chinese guns used to Clinton's White House java-fest with
the Red Chinese arms dealer!

6. Don't hesitate to say that LAPD cops ran to get functional "black
guns" (Colt AR-15s) made in Connecticut and carried "black guns"
(Berettas) made in Maryland to save themselves and citizens from
criminals wielding cheap guns made in the land of Wee Willie Clinton's
best communist friends and sold by his buddies from Beijing. Maybe
Jesse Jackson and Willie Brown will hold a press conference to state
that black guns truly saved the lives of blacks, whites and hispanics,
a rainbow coalition of LAPD types and other L.A. people needing new,
clean underwear in the wake of the shootout?

In closing, ask hard questions about:

A. At B & B guns, no 4473s, no CA forms, no fifteen day waiting period
   for LAPD, what would BATF say? I guess this establishes a precedent
   that citizens in acute fear of being victimized by criminals can
   also enter gun shops in CA and leave with firearms, without filling
   out any paperwork? California, here I come. (This incident makes a
   mockery of the silly Brady Law! What an oppotunity to make fun of
   the Brady Law!)

B. Ask if funeral expenses for the Romanian bank robber who had
   epilepsy and could not shoot straight due to the fact that he forgot
   to take his medication on the day of the robbery will be covered
   under the Americans With Disabilities Act? (This is *not* a slam
   against Americans who deal with the disease of epilepsy every day,
   just a dig at our welfare state.)

C. Ask if the California Legislature is going to honor the FFL dealer
   (B & B Guns) for aiding LAPD "in extremis" and if the Legislature
   intends to "honor the guns" B & B Guns loaned to LAPD by
   recommending that all CA citizens concerned with defending
   themselves against evil predators should certainly purchase such
   firearms as soon as possible.

D. Ask local FFL dealers and gun clubs if they would consider placing
   out "Clinton Coffee" cans to solicit donations for the wounded LAPD
   officers and wounded civilians? Monies collected could be placed in
   a special bank account and distributed to the wounded persons'
   families. Think about how LAPD line officers and wounded civilians
   would react to such a move! I would bet that all would be very
   appreciative, while anti-gun politicians would seethe with rage!

E. Ask Wee Willie Williams why all LAPD patrol vehicles are not
   equipped with two shotguns and two semi-auto carbines? The fact that
   his 300 officers were "outgunned" by two persons is *his* fault. The
   LAPD union should be demanding that all patrol vehicles be equipped
   with shotguns and carbines. Heck, one competent cop armed with a
   Model 94 30-30 equipped with a decent peep rear sight and a gold
   bead front sight could have knocked off both perps with head shots,
   given the perps' poor use of cover and concealment and "slow motion"
   movement!

F. Ask why law abiding L.A. citizens who were caught in the crossfire
   of the crazed bank robbers are not allowed to carry concealed
   firearms to lawfully protect themselves and their loved ones? WHY
   NOT?

Above all, pray for the quick recovery of the wounded. And don't forget
to use the term "WANG JUN GUNS" every chance you get! Connect illegal
Red Chinese full auto AKs to Wee Willie Clinton as Wee Willie Williams
foams at the mouth about his cops being placed in danger. Clinton and
Williams and Boxer and Feinstein will screw us if they have the chance.
So, go for it. Keep them irate and keep them gnashing their teeth. And
have fun! :-)

Christopher C. Ferris Litchfield NH ferriscc@mainstream.net


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% From: Douglas Davis <davisda@rmi.net>
% Subject: a forward

    I watched the spots done by Nighhtline, Inside Edition, the local
    news reports, etc...
    
    The term "outgunned" was thrown around without any regard to its
    definition, and by people who live and work by the spoken word
    is truly incredible. How can two people in the streets of LA, with
    conventional long/handguns out-gun 300 police officers? Simply put,
    they can't and should not have in that situation.
    
    Granted, I am not a trained officer or tactition in this area. What
    my interpretation of what I saw was a far superior force with no
    leadership or organization. I saw very well armed officers with a 
    variety of arms (I don't believe all of the shotguns and AR15s I
    saw officers with came from that store) being very ineffective.
    
    That's what I saw.
    
    Chip

    

    I understand that the SWAT team finally showed up with some more
    serious firepower.  Maybe the cops got a taste of what the common
    citizen feels like waiting for the police to show up while the
    citizen is being assaulted.

    Also, both robbers were dressed in full body armor that was almost
    impervious to the police bullets.  Both robbers were finally killed
    by being shot in the head.  Guess the police haven't been listening
    to G. Gorden Liddy.
             
    fred();

The last thing any of us (pro or anti) should want is more indiscriminate
fire brought into a situation.  More cops throwing more lead around solves
nothing.  I've seen cases in my own town (Cincinnati) where the police
have unleased a hail of bullets (only a few finding their target, an
automobile, fer crap's sake!).  These kinds of situations are best dealt with 
by patience, containment, control and protection of the civilian populace and 
then finally by sharpshooters who fire only necessary and safe shots.

I agree with the previous note that the LAPD cruisers should be equipped with 
a shotgun and carbine, but I disagee that they needed to "raid" a FFL for 
AR15s, etc.  (A .30-06 or .270,?  Yeah.  Might not penetrate a Level IV body 
armor, but they wouldn't be dancing a foxtrot 'neither)  Magazine capacity 
for the cops should not be an issue as they shouldn't be firing hundreds of 
rounds in this type of circumstance (note this is not the same as a lone 
officer taking on multiple assailants where magazine capacity is critical).

I guess it comes down to the fact that I'm tired of hearing about our police 
being "outgunned".  This was the same propaganda used to foist the assault 
weapons ban on us and its as bogus now as it was then.  The police are not an 
army or a commando group making assaults on an enemy and we should not allow 
that kind of thinking to seep into our subconcious where it begins to color 
all of our other perceptions.  Its the insidious "salami" approach again.

	Mike

Re: <<< Note 5713.24 by WMOIS::GIROUARD_C >>>
    
>>    The term "outgunned" was thrown around without any regard to its
>>    definition, and by people who live and work by the spoken word
>>    is truly incredible. How can two people in the streets of LA, with
>>    conventional long/handguns out-gun 300 police officers? Simply put,
>>    they can't and should not have in that situation.

Anyone else see the armored personnel carrier in numerous news reports?  How
could that be outgunned?

It's all just more BS to set up another gun grab.

For once the bad guys really *were* using full autos.  Those have been strictly
controlled since 1934.  Illegal to transfer within California since (my memory
is failing me here) the 1970s, maybe earlier.  Lotta good *those* laws did in
this case...

Time and time again we see the same information:  Only the good guys obey the
law.  More gun control doesn't effect the bad guys.

And time and time again we hear:  "We need more gun control."

                                Roak

Ps.  Sorry, just venting.

    regarding the failure of gun control, let's not forget that not
    only did these guys have illegal firearms, they were convicted
    criminals and should not have had ANY firearms at all (had those
    stupid gun control laws worked, of course they don't and never
    will). 
    
    truly an amazing situation.
    
    Chip

    
     Hi,
    
     These two events. 
    
     One event on the east coast,for immediate reference,for those east of
    the mighty Mississippi,and an event on the west coast. How odd to have
    them so close together,in frequency,yet at opposite ends of the
    country. 
    
     Joe
     

    Wouldn't it be interesting to find out whether the two perps were
    turned away from purchasing a firearm by the Brady law?
    
    If they were, they are classic examples of the failure of the the
    Brady law to result in the actual prosecution of illegal attempts 
    to purchase a firearm by a convicted felon.
    
    Even if they weren't, it's quite obvious that the Brady law did 
    nothing in this case to prevent real criminals from obtaining firearms.

Again, I got the following vai the internet.  Everything after the "+" line is
the message I received, so the "I" referred to in the message is not me....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


-----------------------
I received the following forwarded messages.  I edited out the expletives,
but left the rest as I received it.  There is another person making comments.

[begin]
From: Velko Milosevich <velko@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: velko@earthlink.net
Subject: [Fwd: N Hlywd Shootout Followup]


My info is taken from LA TIMES, March 3, 1997

Emil Dechebal Matasareanu, 30 is #2
Larry Eugene Phillips Jr, 26 is #1

"records show that Phillips was arrested in 1991 in the city of Orange (CA) on
weapons related violations while under investigation in an elaborate real-estate
fraud scheme."

"Matasareanu's mother said her son was a sharpshooter and computer whiz who had
grown increasingly despondent in past months, causing her to fear he was
suicidal and might hurt somebody."

Also found in the car in the incident from Oct 23, 1993, IN ADDITION TO SEVERAL
WEAPONS were six smoke grenades, TWO HOMEMADE EXPLOSIVES AND A GAS MASK,
stopwatch, wigs and other clothing.


MY COMMENTS:

Can someone please tell me why the **** these guys weren't rotting in federal
prison?  What the **** more do you have to do to go to jail?

Upon further viewing of the video: while in the lot I said that after ******* #2
fires out his driver's side window he throws out a gun bag - I think it's not a
bag but the remnants of the window glass.

Reports on TV say they DID have armored clothing and kneepads - if they did then
it must have been made by them cuz I've never heard of that stuff.  Vests they
did have but maybe they customized some leg guards.  Reports I heard on TV also
said they were taking lots of 9mm fire and on NBC they showed what was
apparently #1 getting hit while in the parking lot and flinching a bit.  He also
seeks cover behind cars.

The ABC chopper had a great closeup of #2 as he's getting popped by the SWAT
guys, especially the SWAT guy firing from underneath the car.  His hands are up
but I don't think the SWAT guys could see so they kept popping him.  It's
difficult to tell but I think he takes some 223 hits and maybe some 9mm from
some other cops cuz you see impacts on/around him and he grabs at his chest. 
His hands were up in surrender but he throws them down after getting popped.

I taped four different camera angles from the news choppers.  The best one was
the closeup as #2 was getting popped, not very graphic but at least the camera
guy had the balls to zoom in.

May this function as a good lesson to bank robbers everywhere.



EXACT QUOTES FROM THE LA TIMES - MARCH 2, 1997
[Velko's comments are in brackets and emphasis is mine]


Police said they have identified two masked riflemen who laid siege to a North
Hollywood neighborhood, describing them Saturday AS THE SAME PAIR WHO SERVED
SHORT JAIL SENTENCES IN 1993 ON WEAPONS CHARGES and who are believed to be the
AK-47 bandits who robbed two San Fernando Valley banks last May. . . 

[arrested in october 1993 after a routine traffic stop] Officers had pulled over
the men's rented car for speeding and recovered two AK-47 assault rifles, more
than 1000 rounds of ammunition, SKI MASKS, BULLETPROOF VESTS, TWO POLICE
SCANNERS, and several other weapons. . . 

In that incident, both men were armed with loaded 9-millimeter pistols but
didn't attempt to shoot. . . The pair had initially faced up to eight years in
prison for conspiracy to commit robbery and unlawful weapons activity, both
felonies.  THEY WERE CONVICTED ONLY OF A WEAPONS CHARGE AND SENTENCED TO LESS
THAN FOUR MONTHS IN JAIL.

[Wonder how much time they actually served.  Bend over y'all - some elements of
the "justice system" and ALL the commy pinko lefties are gonna grease themselves
up and give it to you - the good guy gun owner!]

Velko Milosevich

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 07:27:26 -0500
From: Velko Milosevich <velko@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: velko@earthlink.net
Subject: VELKO REPORTS ON THE NORTH HLYWD SHOOTOUT

Bad guys were 26 and 30 years old.  Definitely a 91A3, an AK full auto with
foregrip and drum, and I think a shorty m16 with Beta C-mag.  They netted close
to 1.5mil in 2 previous robberies.

These are my impressions after taping various news channels for half the day.  I
taped nearly all the revealing stuff.  I consider myself very observant visually
as I'm a filmmaker and on top of that a weapons buff and member of NRA and GOA
and Cal Rifle and Pistol Assoc.  

These guys are suspects in 2 or 3 other bank jobs cuz the exact MO - guys with
rifles.

The only good footage was from the helicopters.
 
Botched bank robbery in North Hollywood section of LA which is still technically
the City of LA even though it's in the Valley.  LAPD responds immediately but
backs off cuz the guys have rifles.  They are dressed like a SWAT team,
face-masks and body armor - NOT "HEAD-TO-TOE" armor (as the news propagandists
are saying and as I believe there is no such thing).  The perps have a white car
(with plates stolen from an LAPD detective's personal car on Jan 1).  Two guys,
white.  You don't know they're white till after the whole thing ends cuz they
have on ski masks.  

Perp #1 is in the bank parking lot by the front door firing what I THINK is a
semi 91a3 down the street to where the cop cars are.  He's aiming, using his
left arm as a rest cuz I think he might be wounded.  Can't really tell if the 91
(if that's what it is) is full auto but from the recoil against his shoulder I
believe it's a .308.  #1 fires the 91 over the car.  I did not see this gun
firing on FULL unless he was controlling pretty well.  He goes to the already
open trunk and I think ditches that gun in the trunk and gets an AK with a drum
mag while - 
 
Perp #2 is in the car firing THRU his driver-side window (can't see what he's
got but looks like he tosses a rifle case/bag out the window) - you see his
window get blown out from his own firing. (And he's gotta have glass in his eyes
from doing that as well as blown-out ears)   I believe both are taking 9mm fire
from the PD cuz you see puffs of smoke from the impacts - so there's a very good
chance they're both wounded.  It's still early in the game and I believe SWAT or
METRO have not yet arrived.  (most of LAPD are good shots - I know they practice
a lot).  The tires on their car ARE blown out.  Both fire in the same general
direction.   
 
#1 is firing the AK with a drum - FULL AUTO - yes - FULL AUTO.  #1 moves away
from the white car and closer to the bank and fires his AK at helicopters and
also at the cops down the street.  He fires approx 100-200 rounds while in the
parking lot with his AK not controlled bursts but full auto to keep the heads
down.  He blows thru AK drum #1.  You see him reload ANOTHER drum, grabbing it
from his MAG POUCHES and discard the empty drum (not a 30 round mag but a drum)
- he just calmly lays the empty drum down and calmly walks around a few cars. 
#1 then approaches their white car as cover and #2 begins to slowly drive while
#1 CASUALLY walks next to the car.  (You can't see it but they MUST have been
taking 9mm fire the whole time.)

On the way out of the parking lot they separate cuz #1 doesn't get into the car. 
#1 walks on the sidewalk blasting away from the hip. (My opinion is that they
know they're trapped and they don't give a s***.)  #2 is still in the car and
they're both headed down a side street.  #1 disappears behind a semi-dump truck
parked on the side street - you can't see him any more but you see smoke and
shells as he fires.  #1 emerges from the other side of the truck.  No more AK -
he ditched it behind the truck.  Now he's got a pistol and CALMLY walking,
firing one handed down the street.  He drops something cuz he pauses to pick it
up or maybe he's hit.  He stands STILL for about three seconds and then POP -
somebody pops him right in the f***n' melon (his head) from far away.  You see
entrance and exit.  He drops like a sack of s*** and lays on his side
motionless.  Occasional rounds impact in the dirt around him.  Then somebody
pops him with something else, I can't tell where cuz his body jerks big time.

#2 is still in the car driving down the street, not speeding.  He bumps a car,
continues down the same street.  Gets out from the passenger side lets off a few
rounds to his behind and waves someone in front of him away and then fires to
his front.  Gets back in on the driver's side and resumes down the street. 
Shoots about 10 rounds out the front of his windshield to try to get an oncoming
pick up truck to stop.  Dude in the truck bales and runs down the street.  He's
parked right next to the pickup and throws a rifle (can't tell what it is) into
the truck cab.  Then a cop car with three SWAT or METRO (can't tell which) pulls
up diagonally right next to the truck.  #2 immediately runs to the back of his
car for cover as the SWAT guys fire from WITHIN their car.  #2 lets loose approx
60-80 rounds NON-STOP thru his car and the pick up somewhat towards SWAT.  SWAT
returns fire getting out of their car and taking cover behind it.  They are only
a pick-up trucks length away from each other.  It appears SWAT has an MP5 and
two full size ARs but it's hard to tell exactly.  As soon as SWAT pulls up they
were firing out their window at piece of s*** #2.

SWAT ducks and peeps and manages to get a lot of hits to #2 cuz you see the
impacts around #2.  At this point he's crouched and apparently wounded.  His
weapon appears to be a shorty AR with a drum NOT a 30rounder.  #2 can barely
clutch the gun which is now laying on his trunk.  He manages to pick it up again
and fire in an arc maybe about 20 rounds full auto.  SWAT guy in shorts is
proned out and firing underneath the cars.  #2 puts his hands up as if
surrendering and SWAT comes around and cuffs him.  He's still alive at this
point because a photog gets a great close-up of him with eyes open that's on the
cover of the LA Times.  Piece of S*** #2 then dies.

TIDBITS:

>From the pix in the Times - perp 1 is white male approx 30 (and judging from
the pix there appears to be three entrance wounds to his noggin),  #2 is white
male approx 40+.

The news said they used "armor-piercing" bullets and had, according to an LAPD
guy - "armor from head to toe - the bullets are just as if I was to shoot you
with a rubber band."  The reporter asks "did you see bullets impacting on the
gunmen?"  Cop says - "No, but if they did they would have bounced off."
 
Mayor Richard Riordan, before the s*** is even over - (paraphrasing) "I no of
not one law enforcement agency that wants this type of weaponry in the hands of
the public."

With all their "full auto" firing the bad guys didn't kill one person.

Cops responded to B&B Gun Store nearby because someone said they were getting
robbed - turns out B&B (known as Bumble-Bee to you dealers out there) loaned the
cops SEVEN rifles and lots of ammo.

START SENDING MONEY TO THE NRA CUZ THE S*** IS GONNA HIT THE FAN!

Velko Milosevich

[end]

    Just to carry on with the California theme of the last few entries. I
    was in San Diego last week and saw a one paragraph entry that the State
    had issued a commendation to the NRA for it's Eddie Eagle program. 
    Small steps.