Conference pasta::flex

    Scott,
    
    	If ya don't mind, keep me updated on your buddy's (Bill) progress. 
    The idea of wieghing 190lbs by July sounds appealing to me.
    
    Thanks,
    
    	Jay

Well, Bill is not exactly my "bud" - he's the publisher of MM2K.  If you're
interested in this, I would strongly suggest picking up the MM2K that's one the
newstands now (which shouldn't be the May issue, but the one before that), and
then picking up the May issue when it hits the streets.

btw; Torbjorn believes that during the bulking phase, a macronutrient profile of
20% protien, 50% carb and 30% fat will work best.  The carbs are high because
this will maximize insulin output which in turn promotes anabolism.

Also, the 4lb gain is supposed to just be the first month.  The bulking cycle
after the diet cycle supposedly should show dramatic increase in muscle size and
strength.

The only thing I'm trying to do is figure out how to afford all the food.  Going
up to 4,000+ (possibly as high as 4,700) calories a day is going to be tough. 
Of course the advantage is that you'd be saving money the following two weeks
while you starve yourself.

--Scott

i found that a little wierd, Scott, however coming from mm2k makes it sound more
plausible.

i couldn't gorge myself anymore than i already am even if i was going to stavre 
for 2 weeks; if you try it, let us how you make out.

i just see this approach as becoming abusive by too many people and then crying 
about getting fat and not lean.

reg.

    It sounds like the standard advice most people get - shake up your diet
    frequently so your metablolism doesn't get sluggish; shake up your
    exercise routine frequently so you are constantly challenged.
    
    Insert standard disclaimer - NOTHING works for EVERYONE.
    

    I read an article in Dec 96 that stated that the problem with most
    people's diet is that they eat the wrong things together.  The body
    uses acid enzymes to digest protien and alkaline medium for digestion
    of starch foods.  If you eat both at the same time the enzymes cancel
    out each other and your food does not completely get digested.  You can
    eat protien and vegetables or starch foods and vegetables but should
    not combine starch with protien.  It has taken some habit breaking for
    me but since 1 Jan 97 I have gone from 230lbs to 193 lbs this morning
    and from 39" waist to 35".  
    
    In all fairness I have used a rider for 30 min. 3-4 times per week in
    addition to 2 weight workouts per week.  I started drinking filtered
    water at every meal and reduced the bread since I can't combine starch
    with protien.  The hardest part is no fries with burger or no baked
    potatoe with steak.  Fruit between meals has also been a big part of
    this.  
    
    Gotta go buy new clothes
    Mike

The spousal unit informed me yesterday that the latest issue of MM2K has arrived
in the mail at home.  This issue should have the results of Bill Philips first
cycle on the plan.  I'll post an update Monday with a synopsis of his results.

--Scott

Well, the latest issue of MM is pretty awesome (it's no longer MM2K, just Muscle
Media).  They have adopted a new format and hired a new creative director - very
impressive.

Anyway, I'm still reading thru the ABCDE article (part III with part IV next
issue), but they do have some results from Bill and from other people that
mailed them in.

o Tim Morrison, Oak Park IL at 5'9" went from 164 pounds to 174 after 2 complete
  cycles.
o Bill Philips went from 197.5 to 199.5 after 1 cycle, but in addition dropped
  body fat % from 7.8 to 7.1 (after the 2 weeks of bulking, Bill was at 205 lbs)
o Scott Blankenship, Bill's training partner added 5 lbs after 1 cycle.  His 
  bench jumped from 290 to 315 during the bulking phase.

All 3 articles are available at www.mm2k.com

I've decided I'm going to go ahead and give this a try starting in June. 
Starting today I'm going to be upping my aerobics and really closely watching my
calorie counts - I need to establish a maintenance level.  Then next week I'm
going to cut back the maintenance level slightly - this is to prime things a
little for the bulking phase, since I haven't been a very good boy lately with
the diet and workouts.  Then on June 2, I'll take the calorie intake up to 4,300
- 4,500 for two weeks.  I'm going to go ahead and supplement as well (at least
for the first 2 cycles, I'm thinking of dropping the supplementation for the 3rd
cycle to see how things go differently).  On 1-Jun, I'll bite the bullet and
post my stats so that everyone can be amused by them, and then I'll post stats
again after each cycle.  Right now I'm planning on trying 3 cycles, and then
taking a break for awhile.

--Scott

    Scott
    
    This is a great chance to measure someone starting a formalized
    supplimentation program.
    
    Your already lifting so you any gains you make will not be because your
    just starting.  It is important you list all the changes your making,
    if you can.  Already your changing your diet and your adding
    supplimentation.  Keep track of all the changes.
    
    This is really interesting.
    
    Brian

My lifting schedule has been, shall we say, erratic of late.  That's one of the
reasons I'm not starting the program right away but am waiting 3 weeks while I
get back into my routine and get to a point were I have some sort of baseline
(if that's the right word).

The prospect of putting on some significant LBM for the first time in a long
time has gotten me very enthused again, and I've got to say, some of the photo
shots in this latest issue of MM were very inspirational - I find it nice that
they are focusing again (or more than ever) on normal BB'ers rather than the
steroid enhanced monsters - at least from the perspective of a lot of the photos
they have in this issue.  These people have physiques that are achievable.

And I will try to keep track of all the changes I'm making and post them here
periodically.

--Scott

Ok, here's the supplimentation plan; I've read the plan that Bill Philips was
using and the reasons behind it, and they seem to make sense.

Starting the week prior to the bulking phase I'm going to start loading with
Creatine (Phosphagen HP), then starting on 3-Jun (Super Tuesday at GNC dontcha
know, and one day after the bulking phase starts) I'll go to:
	Phosphagen HP 3 servings per day
	Myoplex Plus Deluxe, 2-3 servings per day (probably 3)
	Vitamin C, 3 grams/day
	Lots and lots of food...

During the cutting phase I'll switch too:
	BetaGen, 3-4 servings
	CytoVol 2 servings (one after training, one before bed)
	Myoplex Plus, 2 servings
	Not much food at all...

I may throw in a little melatonin prior to bed, it helps me sleep.  I'm still
looking at CLA, and Flaxseed oil will be part of the regular diet as well,
especially during the cutting phase.  I will not be adding the
caffeine/ephedrine/aspirin stack during the cutting phase - I've found this
stack sends my blood pressure right over the top (in fact, I've cut out caffeine
entirely).  I'll probably add in some grapefruit extract and chromium instead.

I think the hardest part of this is going to be cutting back to the 1600-1800
calories/day during the cutting phase, especially after consuming about 4500
calories/day during bulking.  So far today I've only done about 1100 calories,
and I've yet to do dinner - my body is telling me it's hungry (I did 30 minutes
or aerobics this morning and lifted weights this evening, so that probably has
something to do with it ;-)

If I'm frugal, I'll be able to afford supplimentation for 2 cycles, but that's
it.  Even with Super Tuesday at GNC this is going to run about $400/cycle, so 2
cycles will give me a good idea of whether it's worth it or not, and then
comparing supplimentation to a third cycle (assuming I live that long) will give
me some good data for future suppliment purchase decisions.

--Scott

    Scott
    
    Just out of curiosity, at $800 for 2 cycles, what would you consider
    worth it?  Adding an inch to your arms and chest and legs?  Exactly
    what would constitute goodness.  I get upset at $45 a case for Myoplex
    shakes (not the + ones with all the suppliments)
    
    I have to admit, I tried to talk my wife into letting me buy a
    motorcycle for $900 and she took my head off, I could only imagine
    trying to justify $800 for two cycles whooooheee.
    
    This is going to be very interesting to watch.  This is great your
    taking the time to document this.
    
    Brian

I think at this point, after the last few months, I would consider just about
anything worth it ;-)

Right now I'm hoping to add 10 lbs of LBM across 2 cycles and get my bodyfat
below 10% (something I have a tough time doing). Based on the information in the
articles and reported results, this seems like a reasonable goal.  If I can add
more than that, wow (I mean if I could respond like that one guy with 20lbs of
LBM, wow!).  I'm not sure what 10 lbs would translate into for measurements; I'd
like to get the arms up to a solid 18/19" (though I wouldn't turn down 20,
though it's probably not realistic) - I've only ever hit 17" previously.  Other
than that I don't have any specific measurements in mind. I was planning on
taping myself at the begining and again at the end of each cycle.  I'll probably
also tape prior to begining the creatine loading phase, so I have the "not on
suppliments" baseline.

fwiw, the spouse and I are still negotiating the supplements; there may be a few
modifications.

You know, I don't think I've ever really tried aerobics in the morning before -
this stuff is great in the morning; I always had a tough time getting excited
about aerobics in the afternoon/evening.

--Scott

Scott-

the 400 bucks covers only the sup's? or does it include the food for the cycle 
as well? even still: i could never justify that kind of money for an inch at 
best. if you get more than an inch, i'd suggest relooking at caliper 
measurements and/or other body fat percentage measuring techniques; this is 
included in you before program, right?

good luck in you effort! may the force be with you!

reg.

The 400 bucks covers only the supps.  The food bill will probably show no net
change, since the cycle is split between 2 weeks of eating 4500 calories with 2
weeks of 1600 calories.  The food bill may go up slightly after each cycle
though as my maintenace amount will increase, and I expect to have to eat even
more for the second and third cycle.  10lbs of LBM would be a significant gain
for me; truthfully I'd like to do better but don't want to be dissappointed,
however, since I'll be spending that type of money, I'm going to be investing a
significant amount of effort.

I'm not sure what you mean by using a caliper in conjunction with the more than
an inch?  In terms of bodyfat, I was going to try 3 methods - a caliper, the
tape measure and one of those electro-scale thingies if I can find one to use. 
I was just planning on using a tape to measure biceps, chest, waist, thighs and
calves.  Obviously the assumption here is that prior to the bulking phase I
won't have a lot of intra-cellular/muscle fat (which will not be the case after
the bulking phase); another reason I was planning on "priming" things two week
prior to the first cycle with a slightly below maintenance calorie intake.

One of the other big pluses to this program though, is that the LBM doesn't
disappear after the cycles, or even if I stop working out for awhile.  The
theory is that since this LBM was put on in a fashion very similar to what
happens to the body during puberty, that the body will maintain the muscle so
long as you don't go out of your way to create an situation (like eating below
maintenance, etc.) where the body would consume the muscle.

    Scott
    
    You know listening to how carefully your going to watch your caloric
    intake as well as the amount of discipline your going to add to your
    regime, it makes me wonder how much LBM are you really going to gain
    from the suppliments verses, just being really focused on your training
    and diet.  I still think that since supplimention is wicked expensive
    we tend to focus more on the bodybuilding and thats what really causes
    the gains.  How long is your baseline going to be?  It would be great
    if it was a couple of months long that would definitely remove the
    possiblity of the placebo effect.
    
    Brian

>How long is your baseline going to be? 

This was what the third cycle w/o supplementation was to be for.  Looking at the
calendar, I will have time to try a 4th cycle before a 2 week vacation in late
September.  So I could try 2 cycles w/supps and 2 cycles w/o.  The most
significant gains are expected to be in the cycles after the first, since the
body is being primed during that first cycle.  For comparison purposes, it would
probably be best to compare cycle 2 & 4.  That would give us a "clean" month
each way to compare.  I wouldn't be priming, and by month 4 the residual effects
of the creatine should be minimal/noexistant.

Historically, I know (or I think I know) I do better when I supplement, so I'm
using that aspect to increase the motivation since this would appear to be a
very demanding program.  Certainly the first cycle is supposed to be the
hardest.  Once I'm into the swing, and see some real gains, I expect the gains
to provide sufficient motivation to continue the program w/o the supplements. 
Of course I could be wrong, but I think this will work best for me, and I am
also curious to see the with/without aspect for this program.

--Scott

re: calipers

calipers are the cheapest way to go [unless we trust that formula], esp if 
you're calipering yourself; calipers pinch the skin and the less surface fat you
have the smaller the gap.  if your program ends up making you stronger, look 
bigger/tighter, and have to buy new clothes: let's not assume that it's all lbm.
the calipers will quickly tell as you'll be able to pinch more skin if it's 
excess fat gained.

i agree with brian on the 2-3 month baseline with extra effort, food and rest 
before tackling the sup routine.  i'd to see a study with twins/triplets 
[identical] conducted using just an exercise/food/rest routine vs one that sups
and see the results.  identical twins are the best we have to finding two people
whose bodies will respond nearly equally.

reg.

	$800!!!!!!! for half that you could do a real cycle, in a moderate safe
dosage and end up bigger and just as healthy. That's a lot of money to spend if
you're just taking BP's word on it, a man with more resourses at his fingertips
than 99% of other bb'rs, a state of the art gym, as many free supplements as he
wants, and the money for a perfect diet, if he couldn't put on 5lbs of lbm then
there would be a problem. Don't get me wrong I love his magazine, but more for
their straight forward, honest, and informative take on drugs in body building,
than for how he pushes his supplements. If this is what you want to do though,
good luck, I'm with ya, and I hope you reach and exceed your goals. I look
forward to hearing about your progress.	


						Lukester.....

    Geez...now the $59.95 for a can of Herbalife Bulk and Muscle 
    protein formula (lasts for about 3 weeks, so I'm told) doesn't 
    seem nearly so expensive.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

owing to some upper respiratory "gunk" that the kids decided to share with me,
from which I am just now getting over, I will be delaying the start of the
program for 1 week - now looking at 9-Jun.