Conference netcad::hub_mgnt

RE: .0
    
>    People have this bias about Thinwire.  It has something to do with
>    old technology, using the wrong terminators and having their lan 
>    go down, or shorting out T connectors etc.  Some people flat out
>    hate it...
    
>    It could be popsicle sticks and string for all they care - as long 
>    as it works.
 
Does anyone else see the contradiction in these opening and closing 
paragraphs?  Clearly, "as long as it works" is _not_ enough for the folks
discussed in the first paragraph.  :-)

I'm not taking a position on the merits of Jon's arguments; just pointing out
their internal inconsistency.  Sorry, Jon.

Regards,

Dave

Two comments:

When it comes to the MultiSwitch 600 Stack Director, you'd better
remember that it is really a 10base-2 technology, because you need
a good old 50 ohm connector (or terminator) on your THINWIRE port.  
(One could argue why the thinwire technology was carried to a new 
platform, but the answer is that the same 40-pin connector is common 
to DEChub 90, DEChub 900 and MultiSwitch 600, and the benefit of 
interoperability is seen to outweigh the agedness of thinwire.)

And even if you did change it's name, it had better not be to
DEFAULT.  DEFAULT implies that it's always used, attaches automatically
without user intervention, etc.  That just ain't so with a majority
of 900 modules - concentrators, DECswitch900EF, VNswitches, ATM,
etc.

	Dotsie 

Do you need to know it's Thinwire in order to calculate repeater hops?

    re: .1
    
    When did we make it a requirement that the customer be consistent?  The
    customer does not care what it is - but they DON't want to hear that
    it's old technology.
    
    It's a lot like a hot dog.  You really don't care what's in it, but you
    don't want to KNOW what's in it.
    
    (And, by the way, having supported Heinz for a bit, I can tell you more
    about baby food that you ever cared to know...but I digress.)
    
    ---
    
    RE: .2&.3
    
    Er, most people don't think much about repeater hops in the hub per se.
    In these days of switching etc, well, does it matter?  In fact, I have
    it on reasonable authority that even some very knowledgable network
    engineering folks at an LKG address never gave a thought about DEChub
    repeater hops over the thinwire anyway and misconfigured things....
    
    Now, if network engineering in LKG doesn't remember it - what makes you
    think ordinary mortals will?
    
    The difference between IBM versus "default" LAN is fringe knowledge and
    likely good for a bonus point in the TPT110 network hub course.  
    
    It's probably worth noting, in the MCM help or manual that it's BLUE to
    illustrate that it's an ETHERNET LAN and not an INTERMODULE BUS
    connection and hence CONSUMES A HOP.  (Yeah, call it Ethernet and NOT
    thinwire).
    
    As for the terminator on the Multiswtich 900 - how many DEChub 90s went
    in, got swapped out etc., or calls logged because folks FORGOT that
    silly terminator on the end?  Sigh....ALL of the SEs in the last SE
    forum (i.e. July) told Rich Graham to saw off the damn thinwire
    connector on the Multiswitch 600 but engineering left it on.  Hey, you
    could have cleanly internally terminated it...but Nooooo!  (arrugh)
    
    Now stop this love affair of yours with thinwire warts and saw it off!
    
    ---
    
    Regarding "default"....ok, so call it "Default Enet" - that way
    nobody will get upset when their FDDI, ATM, VN, GIGA technolgoy doesn't
    connect to it.
    
    ----
    But for @$)*@)*) sake, let's kill thinwire warts!  They're ugly!

    One of the reasons for thinwire on the side of the DEChub90 was to
    provide an additional network connection. (for free)
    
    If a customer bought a hub, and a few terminal servers, how would he,
    under your plan, connect to his host without buying a repeater/bridge.
    At least with the thinwire port on the side, the customer is able to do
    this without the need for buying any additional modules. Therefore
    saving him money.
    
    Steven F
    UK CSC

    RE: .4 
    Hey Jon, you've really got yourself wound up this week eh? :-)
    Warts? Hot dogs? Oh well....whatever floats your boat. :-)
    
    Jon, I certainly hope you are speaking your own preferences
    when you speak of your disdain for thinwire. If you are echoing
    customers complaints, then it sounds like *you've* got to do a
    better job of emphasizing to your customers the fact that the 
    "wart" on the Multiswitch 600 provides some scalability for
    those installed-based customers who have all those 90 series HUBs,
    and need to have some way of connecting them to the new 600 HUB.
    Also as Dotsi pointed out (I believe), the "thinwire" lan provides 
    a way of being able to scale those 90 series module in a 900 series HUB.
    
    Thanks Jon for your contributions, and colorful comments in here.
    We really do appreciate them.
    
    rgds,
    Bob

    Sigh, we can SELL it....on a modular insert...why give it away? (and
    create a wart)  Besides, most of the stuff support 10T in some easy way
    these days.
    
    But, gawd...when folks see "THINWIRE" they say "OLD TECHNOLOGY" 
    
    They want to be dazzled.
    j

   While the idea of chopping-off the physical Thinwire connector from the 
   MS600 is interesting to discuss, it is very unlikely.

   A name-change for "Thinwire" on the other hand is quite easily do-able;
   (changing the name of the 1st backplane LAN from "Thinwire" to "???" is a
   1 minute coding job - I know as I would be the one to make the change - and
   a 1 hour documentation change).

   So, any more thoughts on the name change?

   Carl Mower.
   clearVISN

    Re: .7

    Serial ports are "OLD TECHNOLOGY" compared to ThinWire Ethernet.  Do you
    advocate chopping them off too?

    And then how would you configure the hub?

    I don't see why most customers would CARE if it's a ThinWire Ethernet or
    a 10BaseT Ethernet connection.  If you think nobody will use it, why not
    push for the factory to ship the DEChubs with round ThinWire terminators
    already attached?  I bet it is a lot cheaper to do that than to redesign
    the unit for the sole purpose of taking functionality out.

He's not talking about a hardware change, just a name
change.

And it doesn't necessarily matter if we can't see why the 
customer cares what we call it, if the customers have a negative
perception of it, that's good enough for me.

There is plenty of precedent for this kind of thing.
Why do you think our bridges are no longer called 
bridges?


-mike

Re: .10

Reread the previous notes.  He wants the external ThinWire connector chopped
off, which is a hardware change.  Does "Kill It!  Kill It!  Kill It!" ring a
bell?  How about "Thinwire warts"?

And just because we use the word "switch" to denote both repeaters & bridges
(when customers will assume a switch is the latter) doesn't mean it's right.

RE: .11

> And just because we use the word "switch" to denote both repeaters & bridges
> (when customers will assume a switch is the latter) doesn't mean it's right.

Right by whose metrics?  I offer two succinct comments.

	"The customer is always right."  -- source unknown

	"Marketing equals lying." -- Dick Lush, NPB Marketing

Regards,

Dave

    How about....."It's all in the eyes of the beholder"
    
    The beholder in this case is the customer with money to burn.
    If the customer want to buy "switches" heh...we change
    the name to switches if it will add to our bottom line.
    
    Bob

    RE: Marketing = lying
    
    That infantile view is probably why Digital does it so poorly.
    
    
    Marketing is hilighting the attributes of your product which makes it
    desirable to the customer, decreasing the effort of sales and
    overcoming objections to purchase.  That adds up to less work for the
    company and more profit.
    
    It's dealing with the CUSTOMER on the CUSTOMER terms.
    ---
    
    To Mike Doody and Bob Battersby who say "who cares, if the customer
    wants to call it 'fred' we call if 'fred'"...those guys win.  If the
    customer wants me to paint a DEChub purple, I'll go buy Barney Paint at
    the store. 
    
    Buy a million dollars of hub gear, I'll dance naked in their parking
    lot for 'em.  (Some customers have bought only $999,999 because of
    that....)
    
    We have sold LOTS more DEChubs because we call them MultiSwitch.  ANd
    we have sold repeaters which can switch ports because we call them
    PortSwitches.  (People LOVE that electronic patch-panel) calling it
    physical level switching is wonderful.
    
    Position it glitzy and accurately and you can sell.
    
    Position it technically correctly down to the last T&C and you educate
    the customer to, frequently, buy the competition.
    
    We're in business to build GOOD things AND SELL them.  If we don't do
    BOTH, we're out of biz.  It's a simple equation.
    
    
    

    How 'bout "Dedicated Ethernet".  It's Ethernet, and it's not
    "flexible".

    Shawn,
    
    I like it...creative!  Do you want to be in Marketing? (evil grin).
    
    Ok, so can we change "thinwire" to "dedicated Ethernet" in the next
    version????PLEASE
    
    Thanks,
    j