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Conference 7.286::atarist

Title:Atari ST, TT, & Falcon
Notice:Please read note 1.0 and its replies before posting!
Moderator:FUNYET::ANDERSON
Created:Mon Apr 04 1988
Last Modified:Tue May 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1433
Total number of notes:10312

1143.0. "What's the best C & UNIX for the ST ?" by COMICS::DSMMGR (Pigman, Pigman, ha ha charade you are...) Mon Jun 17 1991 15:27

    
    
    Hi
    
    For work I am training up on ULTRIX and am trying to 'fast-track' it as
    much as possible. The aim is to become a support specialist, so apart
    from learning ULTRIX I will also need some 'C' programming knowledge.
    
    To this end I asked my manager if the company might be prepared to
    purchase a 'C' package for my Atari so I could learn at home and the
    response was... yes get more details.
    
    So what I want to know is the BEST 'C' all-in-one-package programming 
    environment (ie editor, compiler etc.) for the ST ? I do not know 'C',
    so if the package includes a Learn 'C' Today manual that's great.
    It must run on a colour monitor and ideally be GEM based
    
    Also, what is the BEST commercial & PD  Unix environment for the ST ?
    
    My setup in a nutshell is 520STFM w/ 1meg ram. Colour monitor. 30meg
    H/D. 1meg floppy
    
    Thanks for the advice.
    
    Jonathan
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1143.1The "best" C for the STAIDEV::HUTCHINSONHutchMon Jun 17 1991 19:5546
Jonathan,

You are really asking to open a can of worms here, aren't you?  Well, OK.  The
answer to your question of which is the best C for the ST is... it depends.

Figgers, huh?  Based on what I have found and from comments from others, I would
probably recommend LASER C from Megamax as the best all around C for the ST for
beginners who REALLY intend to learn the language and develop something.  Laser
C has the advantage of having the fastest compile/link times around and a really
very nice GEM based editor/debugger environment.  For learning C on the ST, you
have the added advantage that Clayton Walnum's excellent book, "Complete 
C-Manship", was written with the help of Megamax C (the precursor to Laser C) so
all the examples will closely match Laser's implementation of C.

Next would be Mark Williams C which I would choose if you already knew C and
wanted to develop larger ST projects.  I believe it's closer to the ANSI C
standard than Laser C is but it doesn't have as nice an environment as Laser C.
But that's just my personal observation.

Prospero C is another good one, especially when one considers the amount of 
documentation that comes (or at least, used to) with the package.

HiSoft C is an interpreted version and does not even come with a compiler.  It
may be of use to those who just want to dabble with C but don't really intend to
put a lot of effort into it.  Buy this one and eventually you will want/have to
buy a more complete package.

Lattic C is still available, I think, but I have never used it.

One thing is common to all these products, NONE of them come with an in-depth
tutorial on how to learn C programming on the ST.  You will have to rely on
other books (such as Walnum's) for that.  Actually, any good generic C tutorial
book is fine for learning the basics.  Only when you are ready to delve into the
mysteries and frustrations of GEM will you really yearn for an ST specific book.

Other C users here may wish to add their specific recommendations based on their
own experience.  Bottom line is: "you pays your money and takes your choice".
You should also consider one of the many Digital sponsored courses in C
programming.  They are quick and dirty but get you off to a good start.
To see what's coming up, check with education services:

	Set Host DELNI; Username: COURSES; Password: not required

Good Luck...

hutch
1143.2Turbo C worked for me.COL01::LELIEI/O in progressTue Jun 18 1991 06:4239
re <<< Note 1143.0 by COMICS::DSMMGR "Pigman, Pigman, ha ha charade you are..." >>>
                   -< What's the best C & UNIX for the ST ? >-

Jonathan,

from my own experience let me say that it's _very_ helpful to have a
package with a source level debugger. I'm coming from VAX Fortran and
had a hard time starting to learn C (those nasty pointers...). The
matters became a lot more transparent with the advent of Turbo C/Turbo
Debugger. 

The only problem I see with Turbo C is the fact that the documentation 
(as far as I know) is written in German language.

>    So what I want to know is the BEST 'C' all-in-one-package programming 
>    environment (ie editor, compiler etc.) for the ST ? I do not know 'C',
>    so if the package includes a Learn 'C' Today manual that's great.

I used Kernighan/Ritchie as a starter. Reading C sources from several
USENET newsgroups (comp.sources.misc, alt.sources) can be very
enlightening (sometimes frustrating also...).


>    It must run on a colour monitor and ideally be GEM based

Turbo C: GEM based, YES,
         Colour monitor, NOPE, mono only.
    
>    Also, what is the BEST commercial & PD  Unix environment for the ST ?

Did you check MINIX ST?
    
>    My setup in a nutshell is 520STFM w/ 1meg ram. Colour monitor. 30meg
>    H/D. 1meg floppy

Configuration is sufficient for Turbo C, only problem is colour monitor.

Regards,
	-Peter
1143.3Can of worms... yes... but thanksCOMICS::DSMMGRPigman, Pigman, ha ha charade you are...Tue Jun 18 1991 07:0415
    Firstly thanks for the replies...
    
    A can of worms ???...yup!!!!!
    
    And of course you are right when you say...'you pays yer money...'
    
    Minix ??? I have heard of this... vaguely. Will it run on my config (see
    base note), how much is it and where do I get it from ??
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Jonathan.
    
    PS If anyone else wants to throw in the comments, please feel free
    
1143.4On MinixMIDIOT::POWERSI Dream of Wires - G. NumanTue Jun 18 1991 11:1917
    I believe I can add a few words about minix.  It stands for mini unix.
It is system call compatible with unix version 7.  It has the source code
to everything but the compiler.  It is available from Prentice Hall (the
book Publisher) for I think current Price is $139.00.  You can't run
TOS programs in it.  It would run on your configuration, particularly if
you gave some room on your hard disk.  Working on just a floppy is
cumbersome.  There is also not much in the way of application programs
available.  It is meant as a learning system.  It does support multiple
users (1 on console, and 1 on serial port).  It of course looks and feels
a lot more like unix than does anything available for TOS.  TOS was modelled
after MSDOS so TOS function code numbers match those of DOS.  8char + 3char
filenames.  Drive letters and backslashes for path separators, etc.
There is a notes conference covering minix on node cimbad::.  There is
also a usenet newsgroup which follows minix called comp.os.minix.

Bill Powers
1143.5Try DIR/TIT=minixYNOTME::WALLACETue Jun 18 1991 11:363
a DIR/TIT=minix shows discussions on Minix in notes 49.* and 152.*

	Ray
1143.6MWC and UnixMPGS::RADOFFTue Jun 18 1991 19:384
I find that the shell that accompanies MWC, viz., msh, comes close to the 
feel of UNIX.

	Steve
1143.7PRNSYS::LOMICKAJJeffrey A. LomickaWed Jun 19 1991 18:4312
For your educational application, go with Minix.

However, if you plan to write *real* programs, and learn about Unix at
the same time, Mark Williams presents a very unix-like environment to
the programmer, but produces code that runs on the native Atari.

Mark Williams also has a good source debugger.

The generated code isn't the greatest, but it works well enough for
professional projects.

Come to the next NaVAUS meeting to find out out Hisoft.
1143.8SMURF::COUTUHe who will not risk, cannot win.Mon Jun 24 1991 16:2725
    Your goals seem to conflict with each other. You want to learn how to
    use C and UNIX but want a compiler that has a GEM based interface.
    Am I confused? These don't go together.
    
    If your goal is to learn enough to be able to support ULTRIX then don't
    bother with minix. ULTRIX (and OSF/1 for that matter) are based on
    the BSD variation of UNIX and not on the System V version of UNIX that
    minix is based on.
    
    I suppose your best bet would be to get a TT with a mono monitor,
    UNIX and X windows. While this is still a System V based system it is
    much closer to ULTRIX or OSF/1 than anything else you can get on an
    ST of any type. But maybe DEC doesn't want to buy you a TT, :-(
    
    I have MWC and use ULTRIX extensively. I'd have to agree that MWC is a
    good compromise between the ST world and the UNIX world. While it isn't
    being actively developed it is still a damn good compiler. The shell
    it provides is very much like the standard bourne shell that is found
    on almost every UNIX system ever made. The source debugger is
    (I can't emphasize this enough) INVALUABLE when you're trying to learn
    C. I have found nothing else in the world that is quite as helpful
    for explaining to a new C user exactly how pointers, structures, and
    unions work.
    
    Dan
1143.9Have a look at Lattice C V5UPROAR::EVANSGGwyn EvansFri Jul 19 1991 12:2013
	HiSoft (based here in the UK)_do two C products, HiSoft C (interpreted)
and Lattice C V5 (compiled). It can be used either as an integrated enviroment
(edit/compile/run all within a GEM enviroment) or from a CLI (either the one
they supply or one of your own if you prefer).

	It's a very good product and is a total re-write of Lattice C v3 (which
had quite a few problems but wasn't done by HiSoft). The only problem is that
they don't yet have a source debugger available, although I am told that this
is being worked on.

	If you'd like more details, you should be able to contact them as
 "hisoft@cix.compulink.co.uk". If that fails, mail me if you'd like a smail
address / phone no for them.