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Conference 7.286::atarist

Title:Atari ST, TT, & Falcon
Notice:Please read note 1.0 and its replies before posting!
Moderator:FUNYET::ANDERSON
Created:Mon Apr 04 1988
Last Modified:Tue May 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1433
Total number of notes:10312

861.0. "ST SWAP-SHOP" by --UnknownUser-- () Wed May 09 1990 12:11

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
861.1Slight problem...RUTILE::BISHOPDon't touch that red butt...boomWed May 09 1990 13:5315
    Chris,
    
    Actually i believe there may be a problem with this, 
    as i was recently made aware that there may be problems
    getting software through customs.
    
    I dont think DEC would like it if the customs people went
    ape over some internal mail they knew nothing about.
    
    Even if you mail yourself, i think you may still need to
    'declare' the goods.
    
    I hope i was told wrong...
    
    Lewis.
861.2we must be squeeky clean...KOOZEE::PAULHUSChris @ MLO6B-2/T13 dtn 223-6871Wed May 09 1990 15:1918
    	Considering the flap about 'software rentals' from the PACE show
    and the negative comments on the Atari Elite group, I think we need to
    be VERY careful about having anything that COULD be a problem
    appearing here - re. DEC liability.   I think the following precautions
    are in order:

    	1. The original purchaser of the software to provide a statement 
    in writing that they have wiped any backup copies from any storage media.

    	2. The borrower to provide a written statement that they have not
    retained any copies when they return the software or pass it on to
    another. 

    	Further, some software contains license prohibitions that would
    preclude even this constrained (temporary) changing of ownership. That
    software must not be included in this program!
    
    	- a concerned Chris Paulhus
861.3You are not making this any easier!!!!!OLDTMR::WALLACEWed May 09 1990 16:0829
Come on Chris, I set note 819 hidden for a reason. All you accomplish by
writing another note about the same thing is causing me to set the new note
hidden and probably decreasing your credibility.

In note 819.26 you said that you would "...open another conference...". If you
want to open (create) your own confernece and take on the responsibility of
moderator then that is between you, your managment, personal, or whoever. But
note 861 is NOT a conference! It is a note in THIS conference which I am the
moderator of.

The moderator of any conference has a responsibility to its readers and to DEC
to insure that the conference content adheres to DEC policies and (I think to
some extent) to the moderators better judgement (I'm sure that last part will
cause no end of critism :-). 

Please don't make me out to be the bad guy. I spend a fair amount of time
(as do a LOT of other readers of this confernece) trying to help out other ST
users, not only through this confernece but two users groups and usenet as
well. I do (I think) understand the benifits of what you are proposing but
that in itself doesn't mean that it should be conded or supported by this
conference.

I've printed out all of the replies to 819 and I plan on re-reading them and
probably summerizing. I also need to look into the DEC policy on notes
conference for some guidance. When I have had time to do all of that then I
will post a decision as to whether these notes will be left hidden or will be
made available for reading.

	Ray (The moderator)
861.4PRNSYS::LOMICKAJJeffrey A. LomickaWed May 09 1990 17:375
I'm with you on this Ray.  If I were moderating this conference, I would
have deleted all these notes already.

I wouldn't allow this sort of thing as part of a NaVAUS activity, and
even more so wouldn't allow it here.
861.5avoid appearance of evilNORGE::CHADWed May 09 1990 20:568
To Chris.

Don't take this affair personally.

basically for DECs sake and so on it is safer to err on the conservative
side and to avoid any *appearance* of evil.

Chad
861.6ARR!GEE! COME ON GUYS!!SUBURB::REYNOLDSBThu May 10 1990 08:5117
    I can understand the concern and the policies -
    
    But does anyone agree that an Atari "SWAP SHOP" is a good idea ????
    
    Just think of the hours of fun, enjoyable and frustration you get
    and somebody else gets at the same time.....on a temporary basis
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Let me know......PLEASE!
    
    
    
    Cheers
    
    
    Chris
    xxxxx
861.7WHY *********** HIDE IT!42371::REYNOLDSBThu May 10 1990 10:4654
    
    
    *********************************************************
    *                                                       *
    *            R E A D  T H I S !!                        *
    *********************************************************
                                                             
    
    This Morning on my way into work I stopped at the newsagents to
    pick up a couple os ST magazines. I am now sat at ny desk reading
    one  (ST Format, with the free cover disk!)
    
    I am now going to copy from the magazine to let you all read it!
    
    THERE IS NO COPY RIGHT LAW.
    
    Contracy to popular belief, there is absolutely no automatic right
    in law to back up Copyrighted software, even for archival purposes.
     Some publishers allow you to do it, others reccommend it and some
    expressly prevent it. You have legal rights if disks are damaged
    or won't work, but these do not include copying unless the copyright
    owner states that you may, in writing.
    
    *********************************************************************
    
    I just thought it would be a usefull something to read, because
    in the conference "A Brainwave into the unknown" there was arguments
    about the Coperight laws e.t.c and this basically sums it up!!!
    
    Ray.....Why have you hidden the Base not !!!! AGAIN.
    
    I don't want to cause problems or trouble, I just want to make new
    friends and get more out of my ST.....
    
    
    Is there any harm in that !
    
    
    And once again.........
    
    **************************************************************                                                              
    *                                                             *
    *  I HAVE NO INTENTION OF COPYING    O.K.?                   *
    **************************************************************
    
    
    WHAT DO YOU THINK JAMIE????
    
    
    CHEERS
    
    
    CHRIS
    XXXXX
861.8SIEVAX::JAMIEUse me, Use me... OOPS excuse me!Thu May 10 1990 11:3337
    What do I think ?
    
    I'm not sure, but whatever it is it's done slowly and probably quite
    innacurately ;-)
    
    What exactly are you saying in your last note Chris ? You open with
    "There is no copyright law" then you go on to say that you are only
    able to copy software if you have the explicit permission of the 
    manufacturer (presumably the person who holds the copyright ? ;-)
    
    Personally I can see the cause for concern from Rays point of view;
    he is held responsible for this conference and any activity that goes
    on in the conference that may be illegal. Can you blame him for hiding
    your note ?
    
    I suggest that what you do is create a conference of your own, call
    it ST_SWAP, put a pointer in here to the conference then people
    who are interested in exchanging software can do so in your conference
    which you are responsible for.
    
    I personally don't see a problem with exchanging software. After all
    its the equivalent of :
    
    Person A *GIVES* item X to person B
    Person B *GIVES* item Y to person A as a totally seperate and unrelated
    transaction.
    
    After a while the process is reversed. I have trouble believing that
    there can be a law that expressly prohibits this kind of transaction.
    It's only the copying aspect that may cause a problem, and that's
    up to the individuals involved and beyond the scope of any pre-arranged
    transactions within a conference.
    
    
    
    
    				Jamie.
861.9yep! recon' so!SUBURB::REYNOLDSBThu May 10 1990 13:209
    
    
    
                         FAIR ENOUGH!
    
    
    
    Chris
    xxxxx
861.10SIEVAX::JAMIEUse me, Use me... OOPS excuse me!Thu May 10 1990 14:411
    So where's the conference then ? ;-)
861.11Do it !RUTILE::BISHOPDon't touch that red butt...boomThu May 10 1990 15:3210
    It's a great idea. I'm fed up with being stiffed by
    expensive software with great reviews and it turns
    out to be a load of %^&#.
    
    But...
    
    Lets make sure none of this is sent via Dec internal
    mail, then no-one will be able to complain.
    
    Lewis.
861.12DEC Policy and Procedures for Notes ConferencesOLDTMR::WALLACEThu May 10 1990 19:1252
This note is to give you an idea of the responsibilties both the MODERATOR and
the posters of a conference have. It also indicates actions than can be
(required to be?) taken by the Moderator and by DEC in some situations. This
information excerps from the VTX online Personal Policies and Procedures
manual.

	Ray (The Moderator)

[taken from the online Personal Policies and Procedures]

  Responsibilities Cont'd

 |     CONFERENCE MODERATORS - Conference (Notesfile) moderators are
 |     expected to periodically review the contents of the
 |     conferences they moderate to insure that material contained
 |     in those files meet the letter and spirit of this policy.
 |     Moderators are expected to remove any material that does not
 |     comply with these standards, and should report violations of
 |     this policy to the appropriate systems or cost center
 |     manager.


 Notes Files/Conferences

 | Digital provides systems to its employees to maintain computer
 | conferences (notesfiles) in direct support of Company business
 | (i.e., product development, financial analysis, business
 | planning, etc.).  Digital also permits access to these systems to
 | communicate matters of opinions and common interests.

 | In all cases a computer conference must have an identified
 | conference moderator as defined above.
				...
 | Conferences created to communicate matters of opinion
 | and common interests may not be used for solicitations of any
 | kind, and must be open to all employees.

 | In addition, these conferences may not be used to promote
 | behavior which is contrary to the Company's values or policy
 | (i.e., they may not promote discrimination, disrespect for the
 | individual, violence, etc.).  It is the responsibility of
 | employees who utilize such notes files to do so in a manner
 | consistent with both the letter and spirit of this policy and the
 | Company's values.  The Company reserves the right to terminate
 | any notesfile it believes is inappropriate or in violation of
 | this policy.

  Responsibility for Content of Messages Sent or Posted on Network

 | Messages mailed or posted over the Digital network are the
 | responsibility of the original author.
				... 
861.13Enough already, this is getting ridiculusOLDTMR::WALLACEThu May 10 1990 19:5473
As can be seen in the previous note DEC requires the moderator (thats me in
this case) to have certain responibilitys. But there is not an explicit list
of 1001 things that can not be placed in a notes file. That leaves a lot of
burden on the moderator. Luckily the moderator is not often placed in the
position to have to decide if a note should be removed from the conference.

>                     <<< Note 861.7 by 42371::REYNOLDSB >>>

>    *            R E A D  T H I S !!                        *
Come on Chris do you realy think I'm not reading these notes? If I wasn't then
I wouldn't have seen youre "read this" sign. What's the point?
    
>    one  (ST Format, with the free cover disk!)
>    I am now going to copy from the magazine to let you all read it!
First of all this is a European magazine and copyright laws are different in
different countries. Second, what makes you think that a computing magazine
(or more likly some arbitrary editor or writer) is an expert on copyright law.

>    THERE IS NO COPY RIGHT LAW.
No comment needed on this aside from the fact that maybe you should read the
statement yourself!
    
>    Contracy to popular belief, there is absolutely no automatic right
>    in law to back up Copyrighted software, even for archival purposes.
What does this have to do with the discussion? What point are you trying to
make?
    
>    I just thought it would be a usefull something to read, because
>    in the conference "A Brainwave into the unknown" there was arguments
>    about the Coperight laws e.t.c and this basically sums it up!!!
I dont' see that it sums up anything usefull. The concern was that someone
would keep a copy of a program that they do not own! Comercial (as well as
other) programs ARE protected under copyright laws.
    
>    Ray.....Why have you hidden the Base not !!!! AGAIN.
My god if you don't know then maybe I should be posting "READ THIS" banners
for you. Maybe you need to go back and read the replies to this base note and
the replies to 819.
    
>    I don't want to cause problems or trouble, I just want to make new
>friends and get more out of my ST.....
You are causing trouble when you purposefully re-posted here the contents
(more or less) of your earlier base note which I had set hidden.
Even if the content of your two base notes were such that they should be
allowed to stay, the fact that you purposely went the moderators wishes is
enough to make me want to ask you to not use this confernece and per the
spirit (if not the letter) of the Personel Policies and Procedures I should
probably indicate your actions to your management. I would REALY RATHER NOT
have to do that. Please just abide by the wishes of the moderator.
    
>    Is there any harm in that !
The fact that you just want to "get more out of [your] ST" does not imply that
what you are doing is harmless. By your argument software pirates that do it
just to "get more out of [their] ST" are not harming anyone. 
    
>    *  I HAVE NO INTENTION OF COPYING    O.K.?                   *
I never assumed nor have I ever claimed that you did.    
    
>    WHAT DO YOU THINK JAMIE????
I fail to see what Jamie has to do with your actions in this conference?
However I did appreciate Jamies response. I have already said much of what he
said but perhaps he said it better or perhaps you think he has more authority
than the moderator?

On a finaly note, it is not as trivial as whether or not loaning software is
legal (actualy thats not so trival either as attested by the fact that so many
lawyers and judges are always arguing over what is legal and what is not) and
the fact that "other people (companies) loan software" doesn't make it legal
(that's the same as hearing my kids say "but dad everyone else does it...").
It is a matter of what is DEC's policy (both in letter and spirit) and whether
it is contrary to or adversly affects DEC's values.

	Ray (the moderator)
861.14The verdict is inOLDTMR::WALLACEThu May 10 1990 20:1123
I realy hate to have to make a decision on this but it's dragged on long
enough. Based on a lot of factors including -

	A lot of concernes by the readers of this conference.

	My personal opinions on the adverse affect that loaning software
	has on a Publishers business and therefore on the development
	(or lack thereof) of more programs by publishers.

	DEC's Personal Policies and Procedures.

I have decided that the two base notes in question will remain hidden
and/or removed all together. More specificly I ask that no other notes be
written in this conference that solicit the loaning of software.

Please note that I am not making any statement as to whether loaning software
is legal or not. Only that it will not be condoned in this conference.

And please do NOT post a note pointing to a conference that is set up for
the purpose of loaning software, it will just be deleted. Whether you set up
such a conference is up to you but don't announce it's exsitance here.

	Ray (the moderator)
861.15after just listening for a while...MGOI02::FALKENSTEINFri May 11 1990 14:1218
    
    I accept your decision Ray, and I think it's a good one. Though
    I understand Chris' aproach to share resources I think it's not
    definitely clear on which side of the law it is. So I wouldn't
    bring up the danger of this notes conference being closed because
    of operating in law's (DEC's or whoever's) twilight zone.
    At least I know that they are very sensitive about this case here
    in Germany.
    Another conference on Chris' responsebility is a good idea, go ahead
    Chris, it's on your risk. If not sure if legal or not, one could
    swap on a personal basis (telephone, personal meetings a.s.o) like
    this was done before. That involves two persons, not the audience
    of a notes conference.
    
    Just my opinion
    Bernd
          
    
861.16Sory to re-open, but a slightly different viewpointUKCSSE::RDAVIESLive long and prosperMon May 14 1990 08:5733
>>                     <<< Note 861.7 by 42371::REYNOLDSB >>>
>>    
>>    THERE IS NO COPY RIGHT LAW.
>>    
>>    Contracy to popular belief, there is absolutely no automatic right
>>    in law to back up Copyrighted software, even for archival purposes.
>>     Some publishers allow you to do it, others reccommend it and some
>>    expressly prevent it. You have legal rights if disks are damaged
>>    or won't work, but these do not include copying unless the copyright
>>    owner states that you may, in writing.
    
 
    Read the article this weekend: my conclusion is that the title of this
    particular paragraph is highly mis-leading. It should be "THERE IS NO
    RIGHT-TO-COPY LAW". i.e. No one has the right to make a backup copy of
    software they've purchased. 
    
    The article is in fact part of a study on piracy, giving cases in point
    of people forming a club, buying a piece of software, and trying to
    justify making their own copies as "joint owners". 
    
    It didn't particularly address the case under discussion of a
    one-for-one exchange of software between two people so is not really
    relevant in this discussion. However the general message was that if
    people used pieces of software they hadn't actually purchased
    themselves, then eventually it will force the developers out of
    business, eventually harming everyone!. 
    
    So, I started off thinking there was no harm in this suggestion, I'm
    rapidly concluding that it's not such a good idea after all.
    
    
    Richard
861.17Against the idea ...STRIKR::RAYERMon May 14 1990 10:4121
    Reading through the foregoing, it seems that there is a kind of
    concensus against further mention of this topic. I agree with the
    moderator's remarks, and empathise with his position. In view of the
    fact that Digital, in the final analysis, won't take lightly to
    the _suggestion_ of Notes misuse ... it seems fair enough that Swapping
    Software, if only because it is contentious, should be omitted.
    
    Atari have got themselves into hotwater recently in Taiwan with respect
    to illegal software. 
    
    I for one would rather not risk the suppression of this conference.
    
    Regards,
    
    Carl
    
    
    
    
    
                  
861.18Good job Ray!PRSIS4::CPS_FRODJean_Marc Gulliet, Take a walk on a long road... Wed May 16 1990 11:3410
	RE: .14


	Hi Ray,

	I fully agree with your decision.

	Regards,				/Jean_marc.


861.19kerrrbooooooooom!SUBURB::HUGHESCTue May 22 1990 11:3510
    
    HEY! TAKE IT EASY - YOU'LL BLOW THE KEYBOARD !!!!
    
    IT WAS JUST AN IDEA...
    
    
    AND ON THAT NOTE I THINK THAT IS ENOUGH SAID!
    
    Chris
    xxxxxx