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Conference 7.286::atarist

Title:Atari ST, TT, & Falcon
Notice:Please read note 1.0 and its replies before posting!
Moderator:FUNYET::ANDERSON
Created:Mon Apr 04 1988
Last Modified:Tue May 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1433
Total number of notes:10312

578.0. "NeoDesk Updates" by RODNEY::PETERS (Don Peters, CTC2-1/F10, 287-3153) Tue Aug 29 1989 17:26

I just spoke with Rich at Gribnif Software a few hours ago, regarding
their Neodesk product. Neodesk is a replacement for Atari's desktop that
is fairly popular (I've been using it for several months now and really
like it). Rich called in response to my letter to them regarding a few
problems I'd been having with Neodesk.  (I only sent the letter a few
days ago, and was elated at the quick response!)

Since others may share similar problems, I thought I'd summarize our
conversation. For reference, I'm using version 2.03 of Neodesk with a hard
disk and the new PROM TOS 1.4.

 1) Neodesk sometimes stops with an error when copying/moving large groups
    of files/folders. The problem occurs when it finishes copying the first
    bufferful of data, and then attempts to get a second buffer of data.
    This is a software bug and is fixed in version 2.05.

 2) When I run Uniterm under Neodesk, I lose the cursor. If I first stop
    Neodesk and then run Uniterm, the cursor is unaffected. Rich said he
    uses Uniterm, but is unable to reproduce this problem. But he uses a
    4 meg ST, where mine is only 1 meg. He promises to look into this 
    further.

 3) If I run a program after I boot up with Neodesk and then exit the
    program and switch from medium to low resolution, the ST crashes with
    two bombs. If I switch resolutions before running a program, the ST
    switches without any problem. Rich hasn't checked into this yet, but
    noted the ST doesn't do the proper things when it switches resolutions
    at the desktop. It should do a full reboot, but doesn't. You can, there-
    fore, lose memory due to desk accessories that take up room but don't
    appear. The best way out is to use the program SUPERBOOT (public domain?)
    to have it select the proper resolution DESKTOP.INT file when doing a
    reboot.

 4) I also mentioned I'd like to see an option whereby you could use the
    standard Atari volume labels rather than the custom Neodesk volume
    labels. Apparently that's a complex/controversial issue, and so far
    they are sticking with their own volume labels, mainly due to the
    incompatibility between Atari's new volume labeling convention and
    former volume labeling convention.

Anyway, the buffer problem is fixed in 2.05 along with a few other minor
problems. To get 2.05, send your old disk along with a check for $5 to
Gribnif Software and they will update it for you.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
578.1SUPERBOOT is PDOLDTMR::WALLACEWed Aug 30 1989 14:424
    Yes SUPERBOOT is public domain. I can upload it if anyone is
    interested.
    
    	Ray
578.2any problems with Neodesk???CSC32::B_NOTTINGHAMBill NottinghamWed Oct 25 1989 18:1314
    
    I,m running TOS 1.4 and Neodesk 2.05. I'm still having trouble with
    Neodesk bombing out when returning from various other applications. 
    
    I haven't got the conditions nailed down yet but Neodesk seems to be
    more trouble free if I don't use the spooled printer accessory.
    CZ-ANDROID is one program that will NOT run with the printer accessory
    but seems to do fine with Neodesk without it.
    
    Anyone else out there have any problems with Neodesk? I like the
    product but get tired of rebooting....
    
    
    
578.3Maybe I can help you?KBOMFG::SCHAEDLEIt's me !!Thu Oct 26 1989 05:027
    Hi !
    
    I'm also using Neodesk 2.05 and TOS 1.4 and I have never had trouble !
    Only a few programms runs not! By me are alltime 6 accessory loaded,
    with  the NeoPrinter.Acc . How many memory have you in your ST?
    
    Wolfgang
578.4Disable that printer spoolerRODNEY::PETERSDon Peters, CTC2-1/F10, 287-3153Thu Oct 26 1989 12:4415
>    I haven't got the conditions nailed down yet but Neodesk seems to be
>    more trouble free if I don't use the spooled printer accessory.
>    CZ-ANDROID is one program that will NOT run with the printer accessory
>    but seems to do fine with Neodesk without it.
    
Yes, I've had a few programs that gave me trouble (Uniterm's cursor
disappeared). Sometimes, installing another program, like Turbo ST,
mysteriously fixed the problem. Sometimes I'd get strange crashes. Anyway,
almost all these problems went away when I disabled the printer spooler
accessory. Rick from Gribnif is supposed to speak at our ST club meeting
next week, and I plan to stress to him the problems that the printer
spooler is causing. In our last phone conversation, he seemed to feel
the spooler was so simple that it couldn't cause any problems (!). But,
being a programmer, I've said that many times myself - and been
very wrong.
578.5Spooler problems also ...SCOVAX::MICHAELSDave MichaelsThu Oct 26 1989 13:509
    
    	Just as a note, I too have had so many problems with the print
    spooler that I just don't use it any more. I run with Neodesk 2.04, TOS
    1.4 (just received it a couple of days ago), and Turbo ST 1.6 and NEO
    control panel as accessories.
    	
    	Also, what's new about Neodesk 2.05?
    
    						Dave
578.6ME TOO!UKCSSE::KEANEMon Oct 30 1989 17:4210
    Hi,
    
    I just purchased NEODESK v2.5. It is absolutly super!!
    
    However. Don, if you see the Neodesk author, tell him that after using
    the printer spooler the next prog used bombs out !!. 
    
    Cheers
    
    Pat K.
578.7try an alternate spoolerDELNI::GOLDSTEINDo you, Mr. Jones?Thu Nov 02 1989 20:492
    Hmmm, I wonder if the Word Perfect print spooler would be a useful
    substitute.  (Of course, you have to own Word Perfect.)
578.8Please help me with NEOTRASH!UKCSSE::KEANETue Oct 30 1990 06:56415
    
    Hi, I just pulled the "official" NEOdesk trashcan accessory off
    Terminator. (I have v 2.05 Neodesk)
    I am having a major problem completing the installation of the
    acccessory. I can install the ACC, and i works well, but I cant turn
    the acc box into a new trashcan. I have attached the installation doc
    below, and I have indicated where I fail. Please please, if anyone has
    done it or can point out where I am going wrong, I will be most
    grateful!
    
    Pat K.
    
    
                       NeoDesk Recoverable Trashcan

                                    by
                                Dan Wilga

         Copyright = 1990 Gribnif Software, All Rights Reserved.

     This item is "freeware".  There is no charge to use it.  It is the 
property of Gribnif Software and may not be sold, traded, distributed, or 
marketed by anyone else without the explicit written permission of Gribnif 
Software.

Description
-----------

     The NeoDesk Recoverable Trashcan is a special desk accessory which 
hooks directly into NeoDesk 2.05 (or later).  It adds to NeoDesk a brand 
new trashcan which can restore any files that were deleted through it.

     This "NeoDesk Accessory" is possible thanks to the new "NeoDesk 
Developer's Kit" which lets you write your own new and exciting utilities 
which can hook directly into NeoDesk.  It can be used to call many of the 
NeoDesk functions directly from your own accessories.  Some additional 
information about the "NeoDesk Developer's Kit" and "NeoDesk Accessories" 
is available at the end of this file.

Files in this archive
---------------------

     This archive should include the following files.  If it does not you 
are probably using a modified archive.  We recommend you delete it and 
attempt to get one which is complete.

     1. TRASHCAN.ACC - The Recoverable Trashcan desk accessory.
     2. TRASHCAN.RSC - The Recoverable Trashcan's resource file.
     3. TRASHCAN.DOC - The documentation file you are reading now.
     4. TRASHCAN.NIC - New icon for Recoverable Trashcan.
     5. PATCH205.PRG - Program to patch earlier copies of NeoDesk 2.05.
     6.  NEO_ACC.INF - File that tells NeoDesk what "NeoDesk Accessories" 
                       you are running.

Requirements
------------

     To use the Recoverable Trashcan you need NeoDesk 2.05 (or later).  
You can see what version you are running by looking under the "About 
NeoDesk..." menu entry.  If you are running a version older than 2.05 then 
you will have to upgrade for the Recoverable Trashcan to work.  You can 
find more information on upgrading below.

Patching NeoDesk
----------------
****OK I can run CONTROL and print spool and Neotrash no probs****
    
     Some earlier copies of NeoDesk 2.05 are only able to utilize one 
"NeoDesk Accessory" at a time.  This can easily be fixed by running the 
included patch program.  The patch program will not affect copies of 
NeoDesk that have already been patched (and thus were fine to start with).  
Just follow these simple instructions:

     1. Make a backup of NeoDesk (just in case something goes wrong).
     2. Run the PATCH205.PRG that was included with this archive.
     3. Follow the on-screen instructions.

     Technical types might be interested in knowing that the patch simply 
consist of changing the data in the NEODESK.EXE file at offset 421E from 
"0C46 000A 6C0E" to "5246 4E71 4E71", something that you can easily do 
with our freeware MEMFILE editor accessory.

Installing it
-------------

     To install the Recoverable Trashcan accessory copy the TRASHCAN.ACC 
and TRASHCAN.RSC files to your boot disk.  A boot disk is whatever disk 
you normally utilize to turn on your computer.  This could be a hard disk 
or a floppy disk.  Consult your NeoDesk manual if you have any questions.

     You must also copy the included NEO_ACC.INF file to the same 
directory where you store NeoDesk.  This file tells NeoDesk the filename 
of any "NeoDesk Accessories" which you might be running, in this case the 
Recoverable Trashcan.  If you already have a NEO_ACC.INF file then you 
should edit it so that it has the trashcan accessory in it.  The 
NEO_ACC.INF file stores a list of all the "NeoDesk Accessories" that 
NeoDesk should look for.

     Once you have installed both the Recoverable Trashcan accessory and 
the NEO_ACC.INF file you can then reboot your system and load NeoDesk.  
Once loaded you can open a window to your boot disk and drag the 
TRASHCAN.ACC file to your desktop.  Make sure you place it in a convenient 
place on the desktop, since the icon for the Recoverable Trashcan 
accessory will now become your new trashcan.  You should also make sure 
you "Save Desktop" so that the icon will remain there every time you 
reboot the system.

    ****** ALL ABOVE OK  neotrash on desktop, works ok, rectangular box
    saved***
    
    
    ***** This is the problem area***
    
Custom Icon
-----------

     Now you have to give the trashcan a new custom icon (so that it will 
look like a trashcan and not like a desk accessory).  You can either edit 
your own or use the one we have included.

     If you edit your own you must remember that the custom icons in the 
icon editor are processed from left to right, top to bottom.  What this 
means is that if you want to create a custom icon for TRASHCAN.ACC you 
must make sure that you place it before the "*.ACC" icon that is already 
    in there... **** WHERE,  When I run the icon editor, I see the usual
    default set of icons, floppies, old trash can etc, but no *.acc icon
    HOW DO I GET TO IT? ******
    ....or your new TRASHCAN.ACC icon will be ignored.  You can insert a 
new icon by dragging the "New Icon" icon and releasing it over any of the
icons inside the icon editor windows.

     If you wish to use the icon that we have included you must make sure 
that you first create a new icon (before the "*.ACC" icon).  Then load the 
TRASHCAN.ACC icon from the enclosed TRASHCAN.NIC file.  You can then copy 
the loaded icon to the new icon you created.  Make sure you delete the one 
you loaded after you have copied it to the one you created.

Operation
---------

     Use the Recoverable Trashcan just like the older standard trashcan.  
Any items (files or folders) you drag to it will be deleted from your 
windows.  It works on hard disks, ram disks, and floppy disks.  The big 
difference is that these deleted items will still be available "inside" 
the trashcan.  You can access the trashcan contents by double-clicking on 
the trashcan or opening its desk accessory entry under the "NeoDesk" menu.

     You may also choose to remove the older trashcan (so you will not get 
confused and delete something in the wrong trashcan) by selecting it and 
choosing the "Remove" option under the "Install Desktop Icon..." menu 
entry.

     You CANNOT use this new trashcan to 'remove' desktop icons from your 
desktop.  That is still a feature of the original trashcan.  The 
Recoverable Trashcan will attempt to delete the actual item associated with
any icon you drag to it, regardless of whether it is a desktop icon or not.
You can still select any icon from the desktop and remove it using the
"Install Desktop Icon..." menu entry.

     The contents of the trashcan are displayed in a special dialog box.  
The drive buttons to the right indicate what drive you are presently 
looking looking at.  The scroll area to the left will list any deleted 
items (files or folders) in that drive which can be recovered with the 
Recoverable Trashcan.  These items are sorted alphabetically by path and 
name.  Folders will be indicated by the standard "folder character" to the 
left of any folder names.

     If there are more items than fit in the scroll area you can use the 
arrows in the vertical scroll bar to see them.  In theory the Recoverable 
Trashcan can handle an unlimited number of deleted items per drive.  The 
horizontal scroll bar lets you read any filenames which (due to their long 
path) are too long to fit in the scroll area.

     By clicking on the appropriate "d", "t", or "s" button you can change 
the display to the right of an item's name to show that item's date, time,
or size.

     If any items are displayed with a "gray field" over the filename that 
signifies that the items' paths no longer exist.  That means that when you 
restore them, you will have to create the folders that they require.  In
color, this "gray field" is displayed with as a "red field".

     There is also an option, to the right, to turn on or off the 
confirmation the trashcan gives every time you drag something to it.  This 
option is permanently saved in the TRASHCAN.RSC file whenever you change 
it and then quit out of the trashcan.

     You can select any item or group of items by using the mouse.  Any 
item you select will remain selected even if you scroll the list.  You can 
use the [Shift] key to add and remove single items from a group of items.  
Selecting any item will turn on the two buttons at the lower part of the 
dialog box, [Undelete] and [Delete Permanently].

     The first option, Undelete, allows you to recover all the items that 
you have selected.  An item is restored to the same drive and folder as 
where it was deleted from.  If there already is an item with the same name 
as the deleted item you will receive a name conflict box.  At this point 
you can either rename the file, skip that file, or abort the entire 
operation.  There is also the possibility that the path of the deleted 
item no longer exists.  In this case the trashcan will give you the option 
to create the folders needed to recover that item (or you can just abort 
recovering it).

     The second option, Delete Permanently, allows you to delete all the 
items you have selected from the Recoverable Trashcan.  This is similar to 
using the older standard trashcan.  Since you will be unable to recover 
any items deleted with this option, use it with care.  Using this command 
will also return any disk space that was used by deleted items.

Usage
-----

     You should try to always make it a habit of deleting your files & 
folders through the Recoverable Trashcan.  That way there is less of a 
chance that you will accidentally delete an item that you did not mean to 
delete.

     It is important to remember that deleted items (which are in the 
Recoverable Trashcan) will still consume valuable disk space.  You should 
check the trashcan at least once a week and delete any items that you are 
not planning to recover.  If you run out of disk space you should probably 
consider emptying out the trashcan.

     You might even find it convenient to remove the built-in NeoDesk
trashcan from the desktop so that you do not get confused and delete 
something important by accident. 

     Remember that if you delete permanently a folder full of files
NeoDesk still has to delete every individual file inside of it one by one.
This means that very large folders might take some extra time to delete.
The folder name will remain displayed in the Recoverable Trashcan while it
is busy deleting all of its contents.

    The Recoverable Trashcan will temporarily delete any read-only files
without any additional warning.  When you select "Delete Permanently" it
will then ask for confirmation before removing any read-only files
permanently.

How it works
------------

     Whenever you delete a file or folder the Recoverable Trashcan deletes 
that item's name from the "file directory" leaving all of its sectors 
marked as "in use" so that no other file will overwrite it.  It then 
writes to a hidden TRASHCAN.DAT file, in the root directory of that disk, 
all the information needed to later recover that "deleted" item.  The 
TRASHCAN.DAT file holds all the information for all the deleted items in 
that particular drive.  If you delete or recover the last item in the 
trashcan for that drive, the TRASHCAN.DAT file is removed.

     By looking for a TRASHCAN.DAT file in any disk, the trashcan is able 
to tell if any items have been deleted in that disk (and are waiting to be 
recovered).  With the data in that file it can then "undelete" any deleted 
items.  If there are no deleted items in a drive (waiting to be restored) 
then there will be no TRASHCAN.DAT for that drive.

     To delete an item permanently it actually restores the item first 
and then erases it from the disk.  The restore stage is needed to insure 
that everything is back to normal before it is actually deleted.  This 
method also assures that the Recoverable Trashcan never has to touch the 
very sensitive File Allocation Table (FAT).

Warning!
--------

     You should never attempt to reorganize or repair a drive using 
programs like TuneUp, DL_II, or ICD CleanUp when you have files in the
Recoverable Trashcan!  These programs will interpret any deleted files,
that are still inside the trashcan, as "lost clusters".  If you go ahead
and reorganize a disk with one of these programs or "fix" the lost clusters,
any deleted items (waiting to be recovered) will be lost or damaged.  Also
the information in the TRASHCAN.DAT file, for that drive, will no longer be
accurate.  Only use programs like TuneUp, DL_II, or ICD CleanUp after you
have emptied out the Recoverable Trashcan.

     Because all the information for the deleted items of a disk is stored 
in a hidden TRASHCAN.DAT file you have to be careful that you do not copy 
that file to another drive.  For example, the NeoDesk DiskCopy function 
will copy the TRASHCAN.DAT if you use the "Files Only" function.  The same
effect is caused by dragging a disk icon to any open window.  If you 
do so, the Recoverable Trashcan information for that disk (the one it was 
copied to) will be inaccurate.

     You can, however, perform disk copies as long as you use the "With 
Format" or "No Format" options.  In either case the TRASHCAN.DAT along 
with all the deleted items will be copied.  This is because those commands 
make exact duplicates of the disk (an "image" copy), including all of its 
contents.

     Under the worst case scenario you will only lose the deleted items 
inside the trashcan.  You can always restore a drive back to its correct 
state (if for some reason the Recoverable Trashcan is not working 
correctly) by using a utility like TuneUp or DL_II to restore the "lost 
clusters" and by deleting the hidden TRASHCAN.DAT file.

TOS bug information
-------------------

     Because the Recoverable Trashcan requires that a "media change" be 
executed so that NeoDesk & TOS both realize that files have been deleted 
or recovered, there is the possibility that you may run into a nasty TOS 
1.0/1.2 bug.

     The bug occurs when special circumstances in a drive's file structure 
cause the system to crash whenever a media change is executed.  NeoDesk 
2.05 will execute a media change whenever you press [Esc] on any drive's 
window.  Thus, you can see if any of your drives have this problem by 
pressing [Esc] from NeoDesk 2.05 on each drive's window.  This problem can 
also be caused if there are more than 98 folders in any directory.

     You cannot use the Recoverable Trashcan on any drives showing this 
symptom.  If you do, the Recoverable Trashcan will attempt to detect this 
and tell you, though there is a chance that it might crash.  In either 
case nothing will happen to any of your files.

     This bug is related to the "40 Folder Bug" and is NOT fixed by 
FOLDRXXX or any other 40 folder fix.  This problem was corrected in TOS 
1.4 (and newer ROM versions).

     You can try to change "the special circumstances" of that drive by 
rearranging the folders in the root directory.  There are no real 
guidelines for this, it is simply a matter of testing.  We found that 
moving the first folder in a drive to another drive, placing some odd file 
in that drive, and then moving back the folder will usually change the
drive structure enough to fix the problem.  (By placing some odd file back
on the disk before you move the folder back to it makes sure the folder
does not end up in the same directory entry).

Disclaimer
----------

     As you would expect with software of this nature, we make no 
warranties concerning the ability of this accessory to recover deleted 
items or to perform as claimed.  The software is provided "as is" and you 
should only use it at your own risk.  We cannot be responsible of any loss 
of data that results from the usage of this accessory.

Upgrading NeoDesk
-----------------

     If you are running a copy of NeoDesk which is older than version 2.05 
you will have to upgrade to be able to use any of the "NeoDesk Accessories".

     You can upgrade to version 2.05 (the present shipping version as of 
the time this document was written) by:

     1. Sending back your original INSTALLED NeoDesk 2.0 disk.
     2. Enclosing $5(US) to pay for duplication, postage, and handling.
          (European customers should include an additional $3 to 
           cover additional shipping costs.)

     Future version may have slightly different upgrade policies.  If you 
are not sure, call first.

NeoDesk Developer's Kit
-----------------------

     The "NeoDesk Developer's Kit" is a complete instruction guide which 
will allow you to develop your own desk accessories which directly hook up 
with NeoDesk 2.05 (or later).  This allows you to write new features and 
utilities for NeoDesk or to use many of the NeoDesk functions in your own 
accessories.  Both the NeoDesk Recoverable Trashcan and the NeoDesk CLI 
were written using this developer's kit.

     Knowledge of desk accessory programming, the 'C' language, and 
pointers is required.  The kit can easily be converted to work with any 
higher level language.  It includes sample source code, header files, 
complete documentation, and sample accessories.  

     This item is planned for commercial release in early 1990 and 
requires NeoDesk 2.05 or later.

NeoDesk CLI
-----------

     The NeoDesk CLI is a complete command line interpreter accessory 
which works out a GEM window.  Includes both MS-DOS and UNIX style 
commands and allows for the easy creation of batch files, interactive 
menus, and more.

     By hooking directly into NeoDesk it is able to keep a relatively 
small file size (since it calls many of NeoDesk's functions directly) and 
it also gains certain advantages over any other CLI.  Among those are the 
ability to execute any program directly from a desk accessory.

     This item is planned for commercial release in early 1990 and 
requires NeoDesk 2.05 or later.

Extra information
-----------------

     If you have downloaded this and do not own NeoDesk you can purchase 
it directly from us.  NeoDesk is a complete replacement to the built-in 
GEM desktop which comes with the Atari ST.  Unlike other programs which 
simply give you one or two features, NeoDesk has hundreds of new exciting 
features and comes with a complete 90+ page manual.  Contact us for a 
flyer or more information.

     If you have any other questions or comments, please feel free to 
write or call.  You may contact us at:

     Gribnif Software
     P.O. Box 350
     Hadley, MA  01035
     
     Main line: (413) 584-7887
     Fax:       (413) 584-2565
     Order line:(800) 999-GRIB <- Orders only!  No technical support.

     Technical support for the Recoverable Trashcan is only available to
registered users of NeoDesk 2.0 - The Desktop Alternative (version 2.05
or later).

    		
    
578.9I assume you tried the scroll bars?YNOTME::WALLACETue Oct 30 1990 14:5816
     If you edit your own you must remember that the custom icons in the 
icon editor are processed from left to right, top to bottom.  What this 
means is that if you want to create a custom icon for TRASHCAN.ACC you 

>must make sure that you place it before the "*.ACC" icon that is already 
>    in there... **** WHERE,  When I run the icon editor, I see the usual
>    default set of icons, floppies, old trash can etc, but no *.acc icon
>    HOW DO I GET TO IT? ******
Did you scroll through the icons (using the window scroll bar)?  You can
always just make your TRASH.ACC icon be the very first Icon, it does not have
to be "JUST before" *.ACC, it can be anywhere before, though for sanity sake 
it is better if you keep them close together so if you ever want to add other
.ACC icons (or TRASH.* icons for that matter) you can readily see them all.


	Ray
578.10More on NeotrashOPG::RAYERBehold the ManWed Oct 31 1990 07:4421
578.11Terminator archive is at...YNOTME::WALLACEWed Oct 31 1990 13:423
NM%DECWRL::"atari@atari.archive.umich.edu"

	Ray
578.12DECWIN::GILLIAMWed Oct 31 1990 15:063
    re:-1
    I think that's the old terminator archive. Panarthea is
    archive_serv1@Ebay.sun.com or archive-server%panarthea@sun.com.
578.13I type faster than I think :-)YNOTME::WALLACEWed Oct 31 1990 15:195
.11 is the NEW terminator mail address, not the old one.  Thanks for the
correction on my original title saying Panarthea when it should have said
Terminator (as it does now).

	Ray