Conference 7.286::atarist

    I AGREE THAT THE SOUND ON THE AMIGA IS SUPERIOR TO THE ST BUT NOT
    THE GRAPHICS. THERE HAVE BEEN COMMENTS IN RECENT MAGAZINES THAT
    AGREE WITH MY OWN OBSERVATIONS THAT THE GRAPHICS MAY HAVE MORE COLOURS
    ON THE AMIGA, BUT IN ANIMATION THEY ARE VISIBLY SLOWER(TRY COMPARING
    FLIGHT SIM II AND STARGLIDER II ON BOTH). THE MOST RECENT PERSON
    TO SAY THIS IS JEZ SAN WHO WROTE STARGLIDER I & II.
    
    P.S. HAVE YOU (AND ESPECIALLY THE ADVERTISING STANDARDS AUTHORITY)
    SEEN THE T.V. ADVERTS FOR THE AMIGA?(IN BRITAIN), THERE'S A CASE OF
    MISREPRESENTATION IF EVER I SAW ONE...
    
    
         ROGER

    
    The speed at which graphics can be displayed depends largely on
    the number of colors (bit planes) being displayed.
    
    Most games run in 16 color mode (4 bit planes) and in low resolution
    on both systems.  Given similar code (ie, non-utilization of the
    Amiga's blitter and copper chips) an identicle game on the ST will
    run perhaps 10% faster than the Amiga.
    
    The ST is limited to 4 bit planes in lo res, whereas the Amiga can
    display 6 bit planes. (64 colors).  Obviously, more bitplanes requires
    more screen memory to shuffle around.  If 32 colors are used in an
    Amiga game, a 16 color ST version might run faster.  Using trickery,
    both systems can display many more colors.  The ST needs pure software
    trickery to accomplish this, whereas the Amiga uses it's intelligent
    graphics co-processor (HAM mode) to accomplish the same thing much
    faster. 
              
    I've spoken to Jez San about Starglider on the ST and Amiga.  Jez
    did not use the Amiga's custom hardware at all, but wrote both versions
    in his super fast assembler routines.  As a result, the ST version
    IS about 10% faster.
                          
    The Amiga's blitter can perform line and polygon draw and fill about
    4X faster than the 68000, and it can do this in parallel, so in
    theory, it should be possible to make a much faster Amiga version
    of a graphics intensive game.  The best example I can think of is
    Interceptor, an F-18 simulator that is unbelievably fast.
    
    For me, the addition of stereo sound makes games much more enjoyable
    on the Amiga on that basis alone.  I'm surprised that more ST games
    don't provide a MIDI soundtrack for those who own MIDI boards.
    
    Ed.
    

PLEASE YOU DON'T HAVE TO YELL, WE CAN HEAR YOU.

I wouldn't always equate "speed" with "better".  A lot of applications
won't suffer much from a loss of 10% in clock speed.

For me, "better" means having a rock solid high resolution black and
white display for desktop publishing.  I don't want to have to look at
any fuzzy color pictures (except when playing Midi-Maze).

Also, "better" also means "cheaper".  A common thread among all Atari-ST
owners, I suspect, is that we are cheapskates.  Of course, Amiga's have
gotten cheaper since I got my ST.

"Better" also means having better software, like a multitasking
operating system that will allow me to overlap editing with compiling
and linking.  Possible only with hacks on the ST, but natural to the
Amiga, if you can stand looking at the screen.  You can also get Minix.

    does this mean the great debate is still goes on?  It seemed like
    the flames and the SHOUTING (please use lowercase) died down long ago.
    
    I agree with .3, "better" depends on what features you feel are
    important for you.  For me, "better" was the stereo, colors, detachable
    keyboard and multitasking.  Price was the problem.  I almost bought a ST
    because of the price difference, but then someone offered to
    sell me a used Amiga 1000 system.  The prices have changed a lot
    since then.
    
    Interesting about Starglider II, I'm amazed he could do so much
    with just the 68000.  Maybe now that he has done that, his next
    project will start to use the custom chips...?  After all the
    Mega ST has a blitter and upgrades are available for the 520/1040
    STs (true? if so, how much for the upgrade?)
    
    -Dave

    
    Don't forget that Jez is based in the UK, where, last time I looked,
    the ST was still ahead of the Amiga.  I doubt if it would be profitable
    to spend an extra man-year or so delving into the Amiga blitter
    code.  Hence many Amiga games suffer from port-itis.
    
    

    I have a problem : to buy an amiga or to buy an ST with a mono moniter
    - which is best??
    Also, sorry about the shouting, my Caps Lock key was broken!!!
    

    But can you multitask on the st??
    

There is no such thing as a better machine.  Show me machine A, I'll say 
machine B is better, but Joe Smith says C is better ad nauseum.  

1st axiom of computers:  someone elses machine is always better.

For me, the ST wins hands down.  The mono screen, the price, the power,
and the built-in MIDI ports and wealth of MIDI software.  AMIGAs may
have two-output sound (pseudo stereo :-) but that is no comparison for
my TX16W sampler and D-50 for sound, controlled by the ST.

Chad

(NOt only that, but the Amiga is a Commodore machine (now), and in my book,
Commodore doesn't exist)

I also read an article by a developer on both machines that claims that a big
graphic display on the Amiga using the special chips loads it down because
of the shared busses.  I have no idea.

    
    Minor Nit Dept...
    
    The Amiga really has true stereo output, not just two RCA jacks.
    There are four voices, each controlled by D/A hardware, and sound
    is generated by wavetables.  Software can control which channel
    each voice will output to.
    
    Re:  Large displays, lots of colors, etc...
    
    What you claim is basically correct.  A 720 x 480 Hi-res (overscan) 16
    color image on the Amiga will gobble not only more memory, but more
    bandwidth as well.  The 'shared buss' contention problem goes away when
    you add expansion memory to the system.  Expansion memory is not
    accessible by the custom display chips, only internal memory.  If you
    don't have expansion memory, than the CPU and custom chips will
    both try to access the same lines at the same time, and someone will
    have to wait.  (Jay Miner used the dual buss approach because
    dual-ported RAM was pretty exotic back in '83).
    
    It's important to note that this 'cycle stealing' effect does not
    occur in any of the Amiga video modes that have corresponding modes
    on the ST, ie, 320 x 200 x 4 bit planes, 640 x 200 x 2 bit planes,
    and 640 x 400 x 1 bit plane.  So, if you restrict your Amiga to
    video modes that are available on the ST, there will never be any
    slowdown.
    
    However, this all goes back to your basic needs.  For CAD and fancy
    graphic design, a hi-res color display is a big plus, even with
    the slowdown (which really isn't ever noticeable).  If you want
    a nice solid monochrome display and only use color for games, than
    an ST might suit your needs.
                                                    
    Ed.
    

RE: stereo

I realize that there are two individually addressable audio outs.
If I understand correctly, Stereo isn't having two independent chennels,
it is having the sound coming over both channels but with different imaging
(with or without panning).  Meaning, with true stereo (as I understand it),
the horns sound like they come from one area, the strings another etc., though
there may be some horn sound in both channels or not.  It is the imaging
and how they the channels work together.

If the Amiga can do that or my ideas on stereo are wrong then I defer.

Chad

    re: whatever note that was
    
    why an amiga vs. mono ST?  Does that imply that the Amiga you're
    considering would have a mono monitor also?
    
    re: Stereo
    It sure sounds like stereo to me.  It depends on the game, ports
    from the 8bit world sound like two independent channels.  The good
    stuff sounds like there is different imaging as you describe it.
    So it looks like it can be done.  That MIDI stuff sounds interesting, 
    do many games come with MIDI output?  Is there a cheap MIDI player 
    available? (not a keyboard, just a box that plays MIDI music)
    How cheap is cheap?  (I've been thinking about getting a MIDI adapter,
    but have been waiting for the player part to get cheap enough)
    
    -Dave
    

    Re: (many previous)
    
    [What is "stereo"]
    
    Well... not even audiophiles can agree on what "stereo" is. What
    was described earlier (perceived locations in the sonic image) is
    really "binaural" sound. My synthesizers (Kawai K-1 and Roland 
    alphaJuno-2) have "stereo" outputs, but they really are using
    time-domain effects (chorus, in this case) to generate a "stereo
    image".
    
    Now... if the Amiga can output different sounds to each channel
    (even if they only differ in phase) I would say they are "stereo"...
    
    On the relative merit of the machines: the Amiga and the ST are
    both great machines. Let's agree to disagree.
    				- HBM

    
    FTL seems to have done a pretty good job at stereo fading or 'imaging'
    in their port of Dungeon Master to the Amiga.  They've released
    a working demo version to whet our appetites (this game is beyond
    belief), and the sounds of things clattering in the dungeons actually
    roll from speaker to speaker smoothly.
    
    Although I don't own one, audio digitizers for the Amiga allow
    two-channel recording via two microphones.  If you walked from one
    microphone to the other while recording, the playback would reflect
    the motion.
    
    If you're ever in an Amiga store, ask to see the NewTek demo.  It's
    an incredible exhibition of graphics and sound, guaranteed to drop
    your socks.                                                 
    
    By the way, the reason there's been an inordinate amount of Amiga
    loiterers around this week is that our own NOTES node has been down
    all week.  Sooo, that narrows the selection of color 68*** computers
    to prattle on about down to youse guys.
    
    Ed.                    
    

        Yeah, I know.  I like to vist youse guys at your home conference.
        
        One minor point that tends to get overlooked is that the sound
        chip on the ST has a much wider frequency response than the sound
        generators on the Amiga.
        
        Not that it matters when driving the little speakers that most
        folks own, but the ST can produce some decent bass - down to
        31Hz.  If memory serves, I believe the Amiga is limited to 100Hz
        on thew low end and 7kHz on the high end.  (The ST has a high end
        of 12kHz?? - can't remember exactly.)
        
        So another use for the ST is that of a frequency generator that
        can be used for testing audio equipment and aligning tape decks.
        
        Bob, who uses his to align his TV set.

    
    Actually, the Amiga sound chip does have frequency response to 15
    KHz.  On the Amiga 1000, they used a low-pass filter at 7 KHz to
    prevent aliasing problrms.  By trimming one cap on the motherboard,
    the filter goes away.  I always thought the sound was much better
    after performing the mod on my A1000.
    
    On the A500/A2000, the filter is software selectable.
    
    Ed.

    As far as mono-monitors go, I am quite happy with the performance
    of my NEC Multisync-II on my Mega ST.  I have heard that one can
    purchase a frame-store for the Amiga that will take the two 60Hz
    fields and produce a 30Hz frame (is the frame replicated once to
    update the screen at 60Hz?).  With that I would imagine some of
    the flicker debates with the Amiga in monochrome may be lessened
    if one were to use an NEC Multisync-II with one of those gizmos
    on an Amiga.
    
    						-Dave

    
    Re: .16
    
    Dave, can you now use both color and mono modes with the Multisync?
    
    Re: General...
    
    There's a trend to put some additional hardware into the monitor
    these days.  For example, Moniterm is offering a 19" monochrome
    mega-pixel display for the Amiga, ST and Mac II.  The Amiga version
    has it's own frame buffer to produce a 72 hz non-interlaced display.
    I imagine the ST version has some hardware to go from 60 hz to 70
    hz.   I assume a device driver is included.
    
    These brutes ARE expensive ( $2000 +, US) but at least they're
    available.  
                                               
    Ed.

    Re: .18
    
    Yes, I use both color and mono modes with a simple little switchbox
    that I built (documented in a past note).
    
    If the mega-pixel is the big (>1K x 1K) monitor I have seen advertized,
    yes, it has a special driver that Atari actually developed for the
    company selling the hardware.
    
    							-Dave

    
    	   I bought a Mega. Some friends have Amigas, and I didn't like
    them (the computers, I should say). Some friends have Macs, and
    I don't want to take a major loan out.
    	   I often feel Atari is going down the tubes. When you read
    in ATARI magazines how bad it is, it makes you wonder. 
    	   So why did I buy a Mega?
    
    	1. My 1985 520ST kept screaming...no memory...no expansion...etc...
    
    	2. All the hardware and software I have came for the trip.
    
    	3. The Spectre 128 cartridge and the 'Mac for $500' idea appealed
           to me.
    
    	And the result? I have always found my ST very useful to me.
    The added memory, detachable keyboard, internal clock, and monochrome
    monitor (I had a color one with the 520) makes this a REAL nice
    system. The Amiga friends like it (they always laugh...no
    multitasking?...THOSE are graphics...hahaha...wow...wow...I wish
    I could do that...), the Mac friends like it (I haven't bought Spectre
    yet, but just the idea makes them wonder...), and I like it, which
    is, of course, the most important.
    	Blitter? I was impressed with the speed (wow...this is quick!),
    until I found out a day later that the blitter was OFF. I have heard
    the new ROMS are faster...I guess so...but the blitter is a little
    faster. Nothing earth-shattering.
    	Compatibility? Well, Dungeon Master, Star Trek and Gauntlet
    won't run. I guess i'll try to get revisions.
    
    	All in all...the whole ordeal was a long, complicated one, with
    systems falling in and out of favor. Anyone looking at computers
    should deal with them for a good amount of time first to get a feel
    for what they need. I'm not talking a sales pitch here. I mean sit
    and USE IT. Find a friend who has one, or find a store where you
    can play with it. When you find one YOU like, go for it.
    	By the way...the new Musician magazine has an ATARI AD! Now
    if they would advertise in a few other places ( like TV, and I don't
    mean the game systems...)...
    
    						Les
    						A pleased Mega Owner
    

    Hi,
    
    Regardng ads in (-1).  There has been an interesting row going on
    in the UK th last few weeks. Both Atari and Commodore are advertising
    heavily for Xmas, in both Full page Newspaper ads and on TV. Now
    the Atari ads are based on price to performance and are quite
    acceptable. The Commodore advert has created screams of wrath and
    protests to the ruling body governing TV standards. What they do
    is to show a lad playing afterburner, but instead of screen shots
    they cut to a cartoon, that would impress a multi billion dollar
    flight simulator. You see this extremely detailed fighter dodging
    and weaving in the extremely (photographic background). Anyway
    Commodores response to the complaint was (and I joke not!)
    :- What is depicted on the TV screen is what the computer THINKS
    it is displaying on the screen, not what is really on the screen
    
    Atari may be going down the tubes in the US, but I can assure you
    that it is really booming in the UK and Europe. There are two prongs
    to the market strategy, 520's are sold as games machines. 1024's
    and megas as DTP engines. They sell a package with LAser and DTP
    software at VERY competitive rates. eg
    
    Mega 2, Mono monitor, SLM804 laser printer, External second floppy,
    Microsoft Write, VIP professional, Timeworks DTP, all in price inc
    taxes, delivery and 90 days on site maintenance  ==== 1795.00 POUNDS 
    20 Mb hard disk + 449.00 pounds.  (1 pound = 1.85 dollars.) 	
                                       
    ST 520 STFM's with 1 meg int drive and 22 games (400 pound value)
    are going for 340 pounds.                                                        
                 
        

    
    	   That's funny...actually that's very funny. If they can do
    that, you wouldn't believe the things my ST thinks about inside...
    
    						Les