Conference misery::feline_v1

    That program will be on channel 9 in northern California on Wednesday
    January 9th.  I am not sure of the time though.
    
    Jo

    IT WILL BE ON AT 8:00 ON 9 - CANT WAIT TO SEE IT
    
    
    
    
    GIUDI

    Well, I watched and taped that special last night and I was somewhat
    disappointed.  :-(  A co-worker of mine had commented that she
    was getting fed up with National Geographic because, she felt, that
    they always included graphic and brutal footage of animals killing
    other animals and she felt it was unnecessary.   Well, after viewing
    that lion killing the cub and then the footage of the male cat killing
    the kittens, I must say, I agree with her.  I don't think that they
    have to sugar coat things, but I don't need to SEE it.  I wonder if
    National Geographic is doing that because they feel they must 
    include graphic violence to get more viewers.
    
    I was also disappointed that very little was said about the cat over-
    population problem and the need for spaying/neutering.  They had a good
    opportunity to make a comment when interviewing the gentleman from the
    Humane Society of the US.
    
    I DID enjoy quite a bit of the show, but unfortunately that was over-
    shadowed by the parts I didn't appreciate.
    
    Nancy DC

    Nancy-
    
    I had similar feelings about the show.  I hate all the killing, and
    espicially when the kittens played w/ half dead prey. YUCKO!
    
    What I did find interesting was the study of cats and their effects on
    the environment.  
    
    Michele 

    That's National Geographic for you. Very informative but not
    not always pretty.
    
    I was sad to see the lion kill the cub and what the male tom did
    to the kittens but when you realize this is part of the WHOLE
    story how can we fault them for it?  Maybe someone who has multi
    cats didn't realize when they saw dead kittens what had happened.
    
    One thing I really appreciate about National Geographic is they
    tell/show/print the truth. Politics and high positions don't seem
    to matter if they have a story to tell.
    
    I just subscribed to National/International Wildlife. They had 
    a story on a Sun Bear from Tibet that is being used for all kinds
    of things and is going to be extinct (sp) if they don't watch it.
    Sure was eye opening. IF people had a conscience in that country
    and read the article they would stop.
    
    Barbara
    
    

    I share some of the views mentioned previously.  But Schnapps, Tequila
    and Rici watched with great interest.  Every time there was a meow,
    they looked intensely at the set.  I've never seen this behavior in 
    them before.  It was really cute!  I wished I had taped it for them
    to watch again...I bet they'd love a movie with nothing but kitties
    meowing.
    
    Paula
    

    I'm not saying that I want National Geographic to sugar coat things,
    or to not tell the whole story.  I'm just saying that I find seeing
    such graphic violence very upsetting and unnecessary.  Its seems that
    today unless there's gratuitous violence things don't get the viewers.
    I think National Geographic goes a little too far sometimes.  
    
    I actually didn't react as strongly to the dead kittens.  I was upset
    but I didn't have to watch the look of agony on their faces as they
    were killed like I did with the lion.  That's what I'm having trouble
    with.  
    
    Maybe its me.  Maybe I just don't know how to handle that stuff.  I
    just can't see whats to be gained by experiencing that.  It does me
    more harm than good.  Again - maybe there's something wrong with me,
    but I'm haunted by the images from that scene because I don't know how
    to deal with it.  I have to just wait until I get far enough away from
    it for it to become bearable.
    
    Just a little soul-bearing................
    

    
    	Nancy - I agree with you, I understand the theory of usurping
    	male having stronger offspring, but I also was very upset by
    	the poor cub biting at his feet as he ripped her stomach out. No
    	thank you, they could have shown just the lion in motion and the
    	dead cub afterwards. That's what they used to do. My husband 
    	won't watch any documentaries anymore because he says he hates
    	seeing things getting killed everytime, and the more I think on
    	it, I agree with him...Some of you might say, then don't watch it,
    	but I do watch to learn, and want to continue to watch.
    
    	Sherry
     

Josh and Hannah watched the show for about a 1/2 hour (until the plows came by
and they were distracted)  They were entranced.  Josh actually woke up from 
his nap to watch. 

    Kelsey and I only caught parts of it.  He watched the big cats with
    great interest.
    
    Over the weekend, we rented the movie "The Adventures of Milo and
    Otis."  Now there was a movie that caught Kelsey's attention!  He was
    enthralled with it.  But, that movie kind of upset me too.  Although it
    was cute, you tend to wonder if the animals were treated kindly during
    filming.  At the end, there was a paragraph stating that all of the
    animals in the movie were humanely handled and trained with first and
    foremost regard for their safety.  Still, I have my reservations with
    this.
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    To respond to Roberta first, I watched Milo and Otis last weekend and
    was very concerned also about how they filmed certain scenes. I read
    the notes afterwards saying the animals were humanely treated, but I
    doubt it.  I was affected more by that movie than by the show last
    night as far as the bad things go.  Sounds like a call to PETA could be
    in order.
    
    I, my cats, and my husband enjoyed last nites show very much!  We were
    brought to tears several times.  Mostly with the shelter scenes and the
    nursing home scenes.  I was bothered to see the grimace on the poor
    lion cubs face as it was being killed.  I can't blame to heavily NG for
    showing this, it was real. You can see worse on any other show or
    movie.  This I felt depicted real life and they did make mention of it
    being a graphic part before it was shown.  
    
    I was also fascinated to watch parrallel behaviours in the wild and
    domesticated cats.  
    
    Another animal lover I work with was very upset at the showing of
    animal testing and watching the cat being dropped.  She feels that all
    animals should be watched and loved for what they are and not to mess
    with nature.  I see her point, but I feel that if we are going to take
    in animals as our "pets" then we control them and therefor owe it to
    them to give proper care.  This care cannot be given unless studies are
    done to learn about them scientifically ( for medicine).
    Gotta run, hope I am clear enough, I didn't have time to truly think
    some of these things through.
    Karen, Ruby, Stinky, Wing

    I just happened to watch one of `The Best of NG' shows on the lions
    this past weekend, and some of the footage was similar with the 
    lions and their kill.  It's not the kill that bothers me...it's
    the suffering that the half dead prey goes through when the young
    are learning to hunt.....I know it happens, but I really didn't want
    it screaming in my face.
    
    RE: Milo and Otis
    
    Saw this on Pay per view a couple of weeks ago.  I was disturbed
    about the way some of the animals appeared to have been treated...
    even my boyfriend was left wondering too.  We watched all the credits
    for the `humanely treated' paragraph....saw it was there, but noted
    it was made and filmed in Japan.  Does anyone know anything about the 
    Japanese and how they feel about animal rights?  Does anyone think the
    wording was added for the conscientious US viewer?  I'd like to
    believe that Dudley Moore would not narrate a story where animal 
    mistreatment was condoned.
    
    I too was more affected by Milo and Otis than NG.  At least the NG is
    real.

    I too watched, and enjoyed for the most part, the show last night.  As
    soon as they showed the male lion and the terrified cubs I knew what
    was about to happen as I had unfortunately seen this in a previous
    film.  At least they stopped with the one cub and didn't show the rest
    last night.  I also knew about whole male cats when ready for breeding
    are a threat to kittens but I really get upset when I know there are
    people there filming these things and not trying to help the poor
    victims.  I guess they have to look at it as part of their job and
    though tears are in their eyes keep filming knowing it's part of
    nature.  I know I could not just watch if it were me (that's why it
    isn't).
    
    I agree that the rep. from the humane society should have used some of
    his time to educate the public about the importance of
    spaying/neutering; the farmer with so many cats continually breeding
    could have used some education on this.  A few neutered cats on the
    farm would be just as good at rodent control as 40 or more unneutered.
    
    My cats enjoyed the show and were glued to the tube for the hour,
    except for one who decided it was bedtime for him (my youngest).
    
    Pat

    Also, another point on the cub and kitten incidents, I think I get
    upset at the female lions and cats that don't go to their offsprings'
    assistance but then I realize it is not their fault but the fault of
    "Mother Nature" which made them that way.
    
    Just my thoughts on it.
    Pat
    

    Re the male lion and the tom cat:  that's life folks.  Nature has a
    habit of regulating population this way and by sickness & starvation--in 
    man as well as animals.  Although the farm cats looked well cared for,
    I agree with a previous note that it is not necessary to have so many.
    
    I taped the program and sort of monitored it as I guessed it would have
    stuff I couldn't take right now--it didn't seem to have much.  Although I
    found the lion killing the cubs distressing, it did not upset me much
    as this is what lions/cats do in the wild.  I get outraged by what man
    does in the name of science.  I am not an animal rights activist but I 
    think research done to determine how cats purr was unnecessary and 
    inhumane (not shown on the show as far as I know) and I turned down
    the sound when it reached the part about research on how cats see.  
    
    Like the Peter Jennings Cat story a couple of months ago, if the
    people filming didn't let it happen, how would we ever know.  A
    picture's worth a thousand words!?  If the camera person hadn't been
    there, it would have happened anyway.
                                                               
    

>    To respond to Roberta first, I watched Milo and Otis last weekend and
>    was very concerned also about how they filmed certain scenes. I read
>    the notes afterwards saying the animals were humanely treated, but I
    
    I haven't seen Milo & Otis. I'm always afraid to watch movies with
    animals in them.
    
    I don't know how things are done in Japan, but in the US, movie
    producers are required to provide extraordinary care and safety for any
    animals used in movies -- and a representative of the ASPCA is always
    on hand while the animal is being used for filming. The precautions are
    exhaustive but in the end the animal is not endangered or neglected on
    a movie set.
    
    Mike
        

    I was upset not by the lion killing the cub so much as by the domestic
    barn cat killing the kittens.  Not that I didn't get upset about the
    cub, but those lions are more governed by the laws of nature.  Survival
    of the fittest and all that.
    
    The domestic tom cat killing the kittens upset me greatly.  Being a
    breeder and exposed to whole males, whole females and kittens, I found
    this very upseting.  I was appalled that the farmer kept 80+ cats on
    his farm, and never gave a thought to spaying and nuetering.  Not only
    that, but many of the kittens were sick.  
    
    In analyzing the why's of the tom's behavior, I came up with some
    thoughts of my own.  Those barn cats were very close to the wild.  They
    did show them feeding them milk, but I got the impression they had to
    rely on their hunting instincts for food.  Also, overcrowding can cause
    cats to behave in a violent manner.  This point wasn't even mentioned
    on this show.  I think that the tom was not killing another tom's
    offspring so that he could be dominant male, I think he was reacting to
    the numbers, the overcrowded conditions, perhaps hunger, and possibly
    the fact that something may have been wrong with the kittens.  I have
    rescued many abandoned kittens in my day, and I have come to realize
    that many are abandoned by their mothers due to illness or genetic
    abnormalities.  Cats can sense things that we cannot.  I think that if
    the researchers really wanted to understand cat behavior, they would
    have addressed some of these points in trying to explain the tom's
    behavior.  The researchers should have performed necropsy's on the dead
    kittens to determine if there were genetic problems.
    
    In my own breeding household, I have never had a male cat attack or
    otherwise try to hurt any kitten, whether or not the kitten was his.  
    
    I was also upset by the apparent ill health of many of the cats on that
    farm.  To me, there is no excuse for that.  That farmer had more cats
    than he could care for properly, and that is not helping anyone, the
    farmer or the cats.  Many of those kittens were very sick with URI, two
    had one eye completely sealed shut with gunk.  That is upsetting to me.
    
    Alot of the footage for this show was filmed in the UK and they have a
    different attitude than we Americans do about spaying/neutering and the
    indoor/outdoor issue.  I did enjoy the study about the wild life that
    the cats of Felmersham were killing.  I think that was a worthwhile
    study.
    
    Overall I was disappointed in the NG special.  I prefer the other
    special on Cats.  I think that it covers more about domestic cat
    behavior and I liked the way that the information was presented.  Also,
    my cats didn't react at all to the NG special, but all ears were perked
    for the other special.  We have watched that other special many times
    but it never fails to catch my cats attention.
    
    I think that the NG special kind of left a bad taste in most folks
    mouths about cats.  Those that don't like cats have even more reason to
    fear them now.  The NG special made them out to be vicious killers. 
    And I had wondered why they kept using that phrase in all of their
    advertising for this show.
    
    Jo

    I tried to tape the National Geographic show and somehow managed
    to mess up the VCR and nothing recorded.  We also had a second Cats
    special on after the Nat. Geog. one that I tried to record and 
    messed up too.  
    
    If anyone has a copy of either or both shows that they would lend
    me I'd really appreciate.  I'm afraid I'll have to fast forward
    through the killing of the cub and kittens scenes.  I can't handle
    that kind of thing very easily.  I know that is the way nature handles
    things but it doesn't make it any easier.
    
    I was watching a show on mountain lions a few weeks back and they
    showed a scene where a couple of men went hunting for a mountain
    lion.  When they found him (the dogs had him cornered up in a tree)
    they proceeded to shoot him down.  It was the worst thing I have
    ever seen and I cried for hours over it.  Why must they show this
    stuff?  It still upsets me to think about it.
    
    Anyway, I do want to see the rest of the show so I'd be very grateful
    to anyone who can lend me a tape.  Actually, I'd probably even pay
    for a copy I could keep.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jan
       

    Re: .12(?)
    
    I believe the Japanese still slaughter dolphins and whales.
    

I have watched NG specials and I've invested a lot of spare time over the
last 20 years researching feline behavior.  In my opinion the NG special
last night has only one major weakness and that was that they mentioned,
but only in passing, how much wildlife is affected by cats.

I know the show was filmed mostly in the British Isles and their feelings
about cats are different, which is probably a good portion of why the
Americans in this conference were uncomfortable with some portions
of it, particularly the farmer and his feral population explosion (and, for
all intents and purposes, those cats were responsible for their own livlihood
which makes them feral in my book).  

I feel it is important to emphasize the resistance we all have to perceiving
our kittens as the very competent killers they are, but we must remember
that they are first, AND FOREMOST, one of the most efficient, and possible
the most strongly driven, predator species on this planet.  The reason we
do not see the behavior the male farm cats evinced as far as competing for
supremacy by forcing females into estrus by killing their young is because
our cats ARE PETS.

That difference is significant.  As pets, our cats are maintained in a
perpetual 'adolescence' - even though they can and do breed prolifically if
allowed - they still look to US as the MOM or superior power in their life.
As such, their behavior is somewhat modified from what you see in a feral
cat which is a true ADULT of the species and subject to all instinctive
drives.  I have seen many situations where a male could not be allowed 
near kittens because he would kill them.  The queens knew it and would
fight the males off if they could.  Again, the cats in questions were not
house cats, but barn or feral cats around my home in New Mexico.  

I too felt extremely uncomfortable seeing the cub killed - in fact, it was
really painful, but I think it is an important fact for us to know...especially
when they pointed out that it happens in feral cats too.

    Did anyone note the name of the farm in the UK with the population
    explosion? Perhaps I could do something like writing a letter, or
    paying them a visit to tell them the advantages of spaying/neutering.
    
    BTW, we're not that different over here in the UK. We still love our
    cats/dogs etc. We just have a different attitude to the indoor/outdoor
    thing, but lets not go into that ;-)
    
    Lisa plus Pookie, Rolf and Florence.
    

    Lisa -
      No one said you loved your kitties any less :-)  We know how you
    feel.
    
    re: lion - I never said it didn't happen and I wouldn't want to be
    told other than the truth.  The point I'm making is that I don't
    need to see the agony of the kill.  If they had deleted the scene
    of the lion actually ripping the cub apart and left in the rest the
    message still would have come across.  
    
    I feel that folks who say "that's nature" or "I want to see the truth"
    are missing the point I'm making.  I hope the above clears it up a bit.
    

    I don't want to burst anyones bubble, but one of the
    reasons a lot of our movies with animals in them are filmed
    outside of the U.S., is because of our laws on animal abuse.
    (Money is the #1 reason).   Our laws are strict, so if they
    go to Japan, or Italy, or where ever, they can get away with 
    more.  I'm sure most of you have seen the horses/cattle stampeding
    over the cliff, the trip wires used to show those scene riveting
    falls at full gallop, etc. etc.  Most westerns are filmed in
    Italy.  And, IMHO, the Japanese have no respect for animal life...
    (needless killing of dolphins, whales, turtles, ivory importing,etc.)
    
    I didn't see Otis & Milo, but I did see the NG special.  
    All I could think about when I saw them
    dropping the cat, was how many people would be trying that 
    *experiment* out after the show.  I had seen the lion special,
    also, and knew what was coming.  That type of graphic display
    bothers me for days, afterwards.  And the condition of those
    barncats was disturbing, too.  I saw many injuries, eye infections,
    and they didn't look very healthy to me.  What was he feeding all
    those cats...It looked like milk & bread in what were obviously
    filthy pails. Can't afford to feed them right, there are too many.
    Letting them breed indiscriminately, with obviously little (no) 
    concern about them.   GGGGGGRRRRRRRR!!!!
    
    They could have deleted the actual kill scene, and use a statement
    like they did when they showed the dead kitten.  You saw the male
    cat go in, and then the dead kitten.  They stated what happened,
    not letting the audience *guess* or *assume*.  This would have worked
    for the lion scene.  
    
    I couldn't have stood and filmed that scene!!!!! 
                                                                    
    
    L-
    
    
    

    RE:  .13 on Spaying/Neutering.  There was mention that the gentleman
    with the 150 (?) cats had every one spayed/neutered.  
    
    I agree that the worst part of the killings was that the camera
    crew/production staff watched and let it happen.  (Or, maybe they
    had the camera set up knowing it would?)  I personally suspected what
    was coming and buried my head in a pillow until hubby gave me the
    "all clear".  
    
    I learned alot from those killing segments though.  Not being a
    breeder, I never realized the threat of the male cat.  I had only 
    heard about such behavior in very small household pets.
    

    Let me clarify my previous reply.  The gentleman in the home, not 
    the one on the farm...
    

for the record:

the cat dropping experiments were very carefully monitored and the cats
were dropped onto pads with sensors in them...there was no injury to the cats
and the sensors told the researchers how much pressure was brought to bear
on each point that touched the pad...that's how they figured out what would
happen to the cats.

The reason the research started in the first place was because a very
popular vet in NYC kept getting "cat fell from balcony" patients in his
practice and when he correlated the cat's injuries with the height the cat
fell, he came up with an unexpected and confusing conclusion - the FARTHER the 
cats fell the LESS damage they suffered.  The rest, as they say, is history.

I read an article describing the testing in detail in some science magazine
a few years ago.

Whether someone would try the experiment themselves is an interesting idea...
however, as this was on PBS, I feel that is much less likely to happen -
I don't think the average nut case watches PBS as a rule.
I don't know, it's just my opinion.

    
    	I believe the people filming are not allowed to interfere in
    	any way with the course of nature. This was on the NG special
    	on tigers, where one cub out of three slowly died, over the
    	course of a couple of weeks, the crew knew if was dying, but didn't
    	help it. They did say that they were going to pick it up after
    	it's mother had abandoned it completely, but it died first. I
    	remember the narrator remarking that they were not allowed to
    	interfere.
     

    The cub scene bothered me, but not anywhere as much as the farmer with
    the 80 unneutered cats.  I'm sure he thought he was doing them a favor
    by feeding them and giving them a roof, but they didn't look too
    healthy to me either.   What's their main diet.....milk and mice??????
    They're probably full of worms.
    
    Pam

    Re .27 - Then I guess I would be punished for interfering,
    because I couldn't stand around & watch the suffering without
    doing something.
    
    Re .28 - And fleas, lice, earmites, eye infections, respiratory
    infections, tapeworms, roundworms, and maybe even distemper
    and/or FELv.....who knows what else....living on milk & whatever
    they can catch....
    
    Re lions -  Yes, it's nature, but I don't want to see those
    type of graphic displays.....I get the idea from a few well chosen
    words by the narrator...
    
    L-
              

    RE.18
    
    I wasn't jolted into acting with the Mt. Lion Colliton until I saw and
    read about exactly what you saw.  Trophy hunters (that's what they call
    themselves) hunt these beautiful creatures in this manner, run them into
    the ground for days and when they can find a tree to get in they blast
    them full of holes.  I was so shocked by what I saw and read that I
    started supporting the colliton and after a long and hard battle the
    Mt. Lion has been taken off the Trophy list and can no longer be
    hunted. in California.  For the time being we have a victory!
    
    I guess it's hard enough to stomach and understand the ways of nature
    sometimes, but the in humanity of man opens another door which cannot
    and can never be accepted as the "natural order of things".
    
    Maybe what I'm trying to say is that sometimes people (not necessairly
    the people in this notes file) who do not have a grasp or understanding
    about the nature of cats, or any other animal for that matter, are
    shown certain things so that they can fully understand the importance
    of a cause or the serriousness of a situation.  Maybe it doesn't need
    to be quite so graphic but then in certain instances, some people need
    to be hit over the head.
    
    
    Giudi

    Some of the replies in this note come across as animal rights reteric,
    with a few jabs thrown at Japan and the UK. I have recieved a complaint
    and have reviewed all of the repies, and there are some comments that
    are borderline. I am letting them stand, but I ask that the topic of
    discussion be refocused ON THE PROGRAM rather then where it was filmed
    and the laws there.
    
    Deb
    FELINE co-moderator

The Cats special will be rebroadcast on Friday, January 18, at 12 noon and
at 9pm on Channel 44 in the Boston area.

Jill

I liked the quote in the beginning of the show, but I missed the attribution:

"God made the cat so that man might caress the tiger."

Is that the exact quote, and does anyone know where it comes from?

					- Ken

    Hello everyone.  I usually just 'read' this file.  I just love the
    stories and the advice.  I did feel the need to add today though
    because I saw a great show last night on our PBS station.  It was by
    National Geographic, narrated by Joe Campanella and titled:  CATS.
    
    It was an hour long and went from the lions and tigers of Africa to the
    domestic cat of today.  I am not new to cats (or animals) having lived
    with them in various numbers all my life but I learned some new and
    interesting things.  They showed some scientists who are studying the
    correlation between the wild cats and the domestic cats, cat shows,
    cats playing, hunting, and doing what they do best - sleeping. 
    
    My guy slept on my lap the whole time the show was on - even through
    the very loud 'meows'. I would urge everyone to check their PBS listing
    or call their local PBS station to find out when it will be aired.  I
    wished very much that I had a blank tape for the VCR.  If it is aired
    again in my area, I will definately tape it.
    
    SUSAN
    

    
    Hi Susan, you can read more about the show in note 4284.
    
    Regards,
    
    Val

    As usual, I'm behind the times.  Thanks.
    
    Susan