Conference misery::feline_v1

    It has been my experience that growling at meal time is a kitten
    trick.  I have had litters that, when introduced to solid food,
    would growl constantly at litter mates while all the time chewing
    and swollowing food.  Makes for really funny tiny kitten sounds!
    I also observed that the better they liked the food, the more of
    a fuss was made.  One time I fed a litter their first taste of choped
    up chicken.  They went *wild*.  Finally, one of them jumped smack
    in the middle of the dish, standing on the food, and proceded to
    defend her position, eat, and growl all at the same time.  It
    was a sight to see because the kittens were probably no older than
    four weeks.  About the fuss before feeding, I guess I have no answers.
    I once had a kitten who would start yowling when she heard my car
    pull into the garage.  She didn't seem to eat any more than the
    others, she just nagged better.  I do think, however, that you're
    on to something by letting them wait a bit while you fuss in the
    kitchen before you feed them.  If you feed them first thing every
    time they nag, they'll expect it.  If you ignore them totally and
    perhaps even wait 'till they give up and go away a few times, you'll
    show them that nagging does no good.  I think they will at least
    let up on you.
                             
    Best of luck
    
    Marion

    Maybe they *are* hungry!  Little babies use up alot of food energy
    running around the house tearing things apart.  Do they have a dry
    kitten food (that they like) available all day??  When Honey was
    a kitten, I would give him a can in the morning, and another at
    night.  He always gobbled it down.  When he discovered yummy dry
    food, that gradually slacked off.  Now he eats the dry almost
    exclusively.
    
    The funniest (?) thing I experienced was baby Skyler climbing up
    my jeans, across my back and over my shoulder to get on to the counter
    where I was preparing his dish.  I couldn't get it out of the can
    fast enough!  Boy, could he eat....
    
    Mary

    
    I have been told by more than one vet that if your kitten gets a
    taste for canned food they will always prefer it and will most likely
    eat more than they need.  I "weaned"  my kittens from canned food
    to dry and as the vet said..."they will break your little heart
    while you are doing it".  We were successful but there was a lot
    of howling and ignoring of the dry stuff but they finally saw the
    light.  
    
    I have one who "talks" a lot at mealtime and the otherone keeps
    quiet but is just as anxious.  I find they do not gorge themselves
    on dry but eat a little at a time all day long.  And besides dry
    smells a whole lot better!

    For the supermarket variety, try Purina Kitten Chow (remember, those
    are babies you're feeding!).  Don't worry about th FUS factors for
    a while.  They need the extra nutrition for their growing bodies.
    Start of by mixing a little with their canned food, and gradually
    add more dry.  Also, just leave them a bowl of dry!  They just might
    like it, but don't tell them it's good for them!
    
    As for getting a taste for canned food, Honey refused dry food as
    a kitten, then he started nibbling bits of it, now he refuses canned
    food!  You can't figure these guys out!
                                      
    Good luck!
    Mary

    While part of the problem is most likely that they are just growing,
    have your little eating machines tested for worms. Specifically
    tell the vet that you want to test them for round AND tapeworms.
    I know that that was Alex's problem.
    
    Deb

Don't forget to make sure the dry food is low in ash content (max. ash is
listed on the analysis panel on the bag/box.  Ask your vet for details. 
Premium foods like IAMS and Science Diet are low, but so are some off-the-shelf
brands. 

High ash content has been linked to urinary tract problems in older cats, 
especially neutered males.

    Kitties do need more to eat at this time of year. With the weather
    getting colder they need to eat more to store up fat for the winter.
    They have to burn many more calories during the winter than in the
    summer. It is also good to have a bowl of dry food sitting around
    fo rthem to nibble at all day.
    
    					Geoff
    

    Mielikki used to eat a can a day.  I was starting to cut down when
    I got Ishtar.  Since kitties need more food, I fed Ishtar a can
    a day, but Mielikki didn't like getting less so I had to go back
    to a can a day each.  Now that Ishtar is about cat size, I've cut
    back to half a can a day.  I feed them at night before I go to bed.
    Ishtar does some meowing and lots of rubbing against Mielikki (which
    annoys Mielikki to no end) but not enough to make me worry.
    
    They always have a dish of dry food so they can nibble when they're
    hungry.  If Ishtar is really hungry she'll finish Mielikki's canned
    food, since Mielikki is a bit chubby I don't worry.
    
    As far as dry food, I buy Crave and only Crave.  I have tried others
    and they turn their nose, especially at Purina Cat Chow.  I buy
    the big bag so it costs me less and I don't run out for a while.
    
    As far as canned food I buy Kal Kan.  I used to buy Buffet, but
    my grocery store added more variety to the Kal Kan selection.  That
    way I can spend 5 minutes picking out every single flavor they like.
    
    Sharon
    

	 Back to  the  growling,  etc.....What  about  feeding  them  on
     different  sides  of  the room, or in different rooms so they don't
     feel like they have to compete with each Other? 
     
	 Regarding the  fuss, I definitely second ignoring it as much as
     possible,  i.e.  make  them  wait, fake 'em out, etc. Maybe they'll
     catch on. I know my Joshua seems to have a sixth sense for whenever
     I'm in the kitchen. He always seems to miracuously appear from thin
     air as soon as I step into the kitchen (maybe that's his connection
     to another dimension - I step over the threshold, and voila!).


				Kathy
    

    My rule of thumb is whether or not they're gaining or losing weight.
    They do seems to eat more in the winter without adding weight,
    even though they're indoor cats.  Regardless of what I do, Sweetie
    sits in front of the refrigerator whenever I'm in the kitchen. 
    It's easy to resist that, since if I fed him each time he did that,
    he'd weigh 100 pounds.  Once a week when I go grocery shopping,
    I bring them home a 1/4 pound of sliced turkey and split it between
    them -- they growl when they eat it, even though they're not near
    each other;  I think it's not really intended as growling, it's
    just a yumyum reflex of some sort.
    

    
    I have been feeding Nippa 3-4 times a day (1/3 of a 6 oz. can @
    time) and leaving dry out all the time.  Most of the time she
    eats all the canned and the bowl of dry could last her 2 days.
    
    She is about 15 mo. old, very active, and by no means fat. 
    She is always asking for food and when she gets it, she eats like
    its her last meal.  I know adult cats eat only a few times a day,
    and I have been toying w/ the idea of cutting back, but Nippa 
    just begs, and begs, and begs......
    
    When should one cut back on the cats food, and how much should
    be given?
    
    thanks.....Michele	

    Hi Karen,
    
    Just thought I'd add my 11 cents worth.  I have gone through
    the exercise comparing canned & dry foods.  I have one guy
    that started to look like an all white pregnant cow. Soooooo,
    here's what I found.
    
    Iams is very good, but high in fat content.  The best dry I
    have found is Blue Seal Kat Kare - low ash, low magnesium, low
    fat content, VERY LOW PRICE!!
    
    As to canned - I tried KalKan, but it seemed too rich - I spent
    much time wiping up piles of upchuck (no fun).  Then I tried
    Friskies Buffet (love those pop tops - I think the kids got
    confused because they didn't hear the can opener!).  
    I have now switched over to Old Mother Hubbard  - their cans
    hold 14 onces vs. Friskies 13 1/2 onces - more for your money.
    OMH is only a couple of dollars more per case.  
    
    The other thing I am trying now is to mix the canned with the dry
    in the morning & night.  I am using a large can in the am & one
    large can in the pm - that's for 11 kids.  The rest of the day
    there is a pan of dry available & lots of water.  It does seem
    true that my kids have always eaten TWICE as much in winter
    than summer.  They must need the extra layer to keep warm or
    something.  But, by decreasing the canned they seem to have
    more energy (who said they needed more) their coats look
    better, they NEVER upchuck (one or two of mine did from Crave
    because of the dye added.  OMH & Kat Kare from Blue Seal are
    all natural with no junk.  Even my "pregnant cow" is slimming
    down.   They all seem to really enjoy both.  I have two monkies
    that really like Iams, so I put a very small bowl down for them.
    I don't have the heart to say no - they are the only two that
    eat it - the other 9 go right for the Blue Seal - both bowls
    are side by side. 
    
    BTW, the 25 lb. bag of Blue Seal Kat Kare is only $10.xxx something.
    It sure goes a long way.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Elaine

    oh Karen, I forgot - the OMH is lowest ash, mag., and fat compared
    to all the others!
    
    E.T.

    I tried to feed Selina Iams and canned cat food.  However the only
    that we have found to date that she likes is CRAVE.  I don't know
    why.  So we buy 2 different flavors and mix them for her.  She
    just flips out over it.
    
    As for the growling, Selina doesn't have any competition for her
    food. But we sure do.  At dinner time, Selina sits in the middle
    chair between my husband and I.  She sits there looking so pretty
    as if to say, "Here I am behaving, now what can I get for my
    good behavior?" Of course, my husband gives her a little taste
    of his meal.
    
    
    For a while there, my husband was spoiling her with Gerber baby
    food.  Whenever we were trying to correct a bad habit, we would
    reinforce her good habits with a spoonful of Gerber strained
    chicken.  Every now and again, we'll buy a jar to have on hand.
    It certainly worked wonders!!!!!
    
    Good luck in finding your answer.  You certainly did get a wonderful
    response.
    
    

    Yup - might be worth doing - try and get samples from each kitty.
    From what I'm told, the cat does the flea chew on his fur, eats
    the flea, and that's how they get tapeworms.  They get other types
    of worms, like round, etc., from eating mice and other nasty little
    things outside!  I guess it's a good idea to worm indoor/outdoor
    kitties once or twice a year (strictly outdoor kitties twice).
    I think it's enough that we have to worry about fleas, but worms
    too?  sigh...
    
    Good Luck,
    
    E.T.

    Re .17 (E.T.):
    
    >..............I guess it's a good idea to worm indoor/outdoor
    >kitties once or twice a year (strictly outdoor kitties twice).
    
    It's almost never a good idea to worm any animal without having
    it checked out by a vet first.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
     

    I had my two little kitties dewormed about
    a month ago.  The vet said that after giving
    the medicine, there will still be some worms
    for a while.  I gave the last of the medicine
    two weeks ago and I still see the little 
    creatures in the litter box.  Does this sound
    normal?  Is it the medicine not taking affect?
    They (the cats) don't seem to suffer too much
    from fleas.  Does just a few fleas do the job?
    
    Any ideas?????????
    
    Katie
    

    Re .19 (Katie):
    
    >Does just a few fleas do the job?
                 
    Even one may be enough.
    
    However, tapeworms aren't the worst, and as long as youi keep your
    vet in the loop, things should be okay.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr. 

    If I'm not mistaken, part of the problem with getting rid of worms
    has to do with what part of their life cycle they are in. And yes,
    if the cat has fleas (or a flea), that could be the cause of the
    reoccurance.
    
    Deb

    How much is too much.  Punzi is 6 months old and Jez and Zeus 3
    months.  I have been leaving a bowl of dry kitten crunchies out
    all day.  Plus 2-3 cans of wet food in the a.m. and 2 more cans
    at night.  Is this too much.  Sometimes I think it is and try to
    cut back but the crying is crazy.  Is it o.k. to feed them as much
    as they want till they reach a certain age.  I have noticed that
    the older cat knows how to pace herself.  She def. does not over
    eat.  She nibbles and leaves.  I was told to feed kittens as much
    as they will eat, others have told me 2 cans between three cats,
    once a day is enough.  HELPPPPPPPPPP  I don't want to get them sick.
    
    
    Also, what is max ash I should be looking for in a dry food.  A
    friend told me that ALL dry food is bad for male cats.  I thought
    some would be good especially for their teeth.
    
    Thanks for any help you may be able to offer.
    
    Doreen
    

    Doreen - 
      Are you feeding canned kitten food too?  If not, switch to
    kitten food - Hills has a "growth" formula in cans.
    
    re: amount - Are the cats fat?  If they are overweight then you'll
    have to cut back.  If not then let them eat what they want.  One
    piece of advice - When you go to a multicat household you might
    want to teach them to eat when the food is put down and then take
    up what's left after 15 mins.  The reason  is that in a multi-cat
    household it becomes very difficult to tell if someone is off their
    feed.  
    
    re: dry - I believe the Hills and Blue Seal feeds are around 5%
    ash.  Both are considered low-ash foods.  The person who told you
    that dry food is bad for males is saying that because alot of
    dry foods are high in ash.  The Hills, Blue Seal, Perform and other
    dry foods are specifically formulated to be LOW ASH.  Also, Hills
    CD contains a "urine acidifier" that is supposed to help prevent
    the formation of the crystals that cause all the problems in 
    male cats.  CD is available from a Vet only and you probably
    don't want to bother with that yet.  
    
    One more thing - there has been alot of controversy about an
    additive called Ethoxyquin.  Hills does put it in their dry
    foods, Blue Seal, Perform and a few others do not.  There's a
    big note on it elsewhere in the file so you'll have to make
    up your own mind on that.
    
    I'm expected to receive some new research on Ethoxyquin and
    will publish it when it comes in.
      Nancy DC
    

    Thanks Nancy,
    
    I have read the entire note on Ethoxyquin.  Before reading the note
    I had never heard of it before.  I had fed Punzi some food which
    had it and she wouldn't go near it.  I thought it was just the flavor
    so I tried another, still she would not eat it.  Naturally I stopped
    buying it.  Later I found the note on E...  When I went back to
    the store I checked the ingred.  Sure enough there it was.  I have
    been checking the food I buy to make sure it is not an ingred.
    
    Doreen

    re: .24 - I ran into a woman at the last cat show (Braintree) with
    whom I got into a discussion of Ethoxyquin.  She happened to be
    the rep for a Canadian pet food company called Techni-cal.  She
    said that ALL cat foods contain ethoxyquin because the meat
    renderers add it before the food is shipped to the pet food companies.
      I asked her, then, how could companies like Blue Seal and Perform
    get away with not listing the ingredient, and telling us that they
    don't use it.  She said that in Canada they are required to list
    EVERY ingredient whether they add it or its added before they get
    it.  She says they add no extra Ethoxyquin and that the amount
    used is minute - far less than what they have to use of BHA & BHT.
    I must admit that she made alot of sense - but I'm still going to
    stick to those companies that add no extra Ethoxyquin.
      Nancy DC
    
    p.s. Technical is significantly less expensive than Perform and
    the cats love the samples of the dry that I brought home.

    At the NBF show in NJ last weekend I got into a discussion about Ethoxyquin
    with the Iams representative. The minute I mentioned the word she
    brought out a brief case and started passing me all kinds of literature
    ..all of which was geared to convince us of the favor they (Iams)
    are doing us by using the Ethoxyquin. It was obviously a hot-button
    and she was well prepared to do battle. She also claimed that ALL
    pet food have it in there, listed or not, along the same lines as
    the Techni-cal rep.
    
    At least it is nice to know that cat food manufacturers are taking
    our protests and concerns seriously. Now if we can only get them
    to spend their energies on research and safe alternatives instead
    of pages and pages of justification......
    
    Linda
                                                                       

    re:  All foods have Ethoxyquin...
    
    Not true, not true.
    
    I called Blue Seal and they have requested from the rendering
    company they use, that they NOT preserve the fat that Blue Seal
    buys with Ethoxyquin.  A pet food company can do that - request
    a specific perservative.  Why they all don't is beyond me.
    
    ALL FOODS DO NOT HAVE ETHOXYQUIN.  IAMS wants you to think that
    they are no different than the other pet foods.
    
    E.T.

    re: .27 - It wasn't IAMS that made that statement - it was
    Techni-cal.  Anyway, Sounds like its not entirely true, in any
    case.
    

    Nancy,
    
    Don't worry, that's what they all want us to believe.  Hill, IAMS, and
    the rest of them.  
    
    I bought the new ALPO dry cat food, and there is no Ethoxyquin listed
    on the box.  I have yet to call the company, I hope to get to that
    within the next day or so.  The ingredients list says:  Animal Fat
    (Stabilized with BHA).
    
    I think it's VERY interesting that most of the new companies
    introducing cat foods DO NOT have ethoxyquin.  Bil-Jac, Lick Your
    Chops, Perform and Alpo are all new products within the last year or
    two.
    
    Interesting!
    cin...
    

    Re: Linda Sobek...
    
    I'm sure the IAMS people were really prepared for questions.  The last
    time I was in Morristown (remember Elaine!), I talked with the IAMS Rep
    for what must have been  at least an hour.  I think I probably scared
    away lots of customers.  
    
    cin...
    

    Where can this new Alpo food be purchased?
    
    Another great food is Fromm Formula Feline (dry).  The cats scarf
    it up but since it is natural, it must be stored in an airtight
    container or plastic bag.  It is also relatively inexpensive.  A
    20 lb. bag costs $17.00 (at Farmers Exchange in Framingham).
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    Yes, Cin, I remember - last time I saw them , I did the same
    thing!  I think they hate to see us coming!!
    
    I am going to have to try this alpo - anyone have the cost and
    sizes available?  How is the canned stuff?  Anyone try that yet?
    
    Thanks,
    
    E.T.

    I just bought the small box (don't know the size!) at the grocery
    store.  The box says it will come in 5, 10 and 20 lb sizes also.  I
    would suspect that the usual places that carry ALPO Dog Food would have
    the Cat Food.  I believe it is the same company, but I'm not sure.  
    
    I think I paid around $1.19 for the box.
    
    cin...BTW, Stripees LOVED it!
    

    Well.
    
    Market Basket had the $1.19 box for $ .99 and the 3.5 lb bag
    for 2.99.  Be interesting to see what the 20 lb. bag goes 
    for.  I"m sure my hounds will LOVE it as they LOVE anything
    that resembles food.

    I bought the Alpo canned on my niece's recommendation.  Both her
    kitties loved it and they are fussy - Fancy Feast.  Oliver has had
    one can so far and even finished off some that was remaining and
    stored in the refrigerator. He usually doesn't like leftovers.
    Also, my niece's liked all the varieties.  I'm in New Jersey and
    paid .39/can.  They were the larger cans, not the size of Amore
    or Fancy Feast.
    
    Flo

    I get the Alpo 3 cans for .89 (the small single serving cans). 
    My cats love it!!  I just wish it came in more flavors.  I haven't
    been able to find the dry Alpo yet.
    

    Cindy,
    I have just broken into this note (Have been dying of flu.)I use IAMS	
    as a bed time treat for my crowd and now the Jackdaw is hooked on them
    as well sulks if he doesn,t get any.Now I am sure I have heard of
    Ethodxyquin but could you just remind me what it supposed to do and
    represent.Mike and myself are a little worried how mad the cats get for
    IAMS,you begin to ask yoursel what is in it.Have you got any info on
    IAMS ie. breeders or pet owners observations. We would be really
    interested.
    
    Therese 

    Therese,
    
    Alot of people feed IAMS, or foods with Ethoxyquin with no problems at
    all.  I have chosen to eliminate Ethoxyquin from my cats diet.  
    
    Ethoxyquin is a chemical preservative used in Animal Foods only.  It is
    not approved for human consumption, although they will allow traces of
    it to be present in Chicken.  
    
    The fact that they allow traces in chicken makes me wonder if the stuff
    really flushes out of the system quickly like they say it does!!
    
    My general feeling is that if Ethoxyquin is okay, then I haven't really
    lost anything by not feeding it to my cats, but if itn't okay, then I
    have gained by not feeding it to my cats.  Since there are foods
    readily available that don't contain Ethoxyquin, I have made the choice
    to eliminate it from my cats diet.  
    
    There's a whole note in here somewhere on Ethoxyquin.  I have explained
    the reasons for my choice much more completely there.
    
    There's alot of replies, but I feel the note is well worth reading.  
    
    Maybe the moderator can give us a pointer to that note.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    The notes on Ethoxyquin have been keyworded. Type 
    SHOW KEY/FULL ETHOXYQUIN at the NOTES> prompt.
    
    Deb