Conference misery::feline_v1

	I have a 13 (I think) year old Siamese Sealpoint neutered female. She
(Cinnamon) has been a house cat for that entire time. For the first six years 
of her life, she would get a walk around the house outside on a leash on most 
days. (At that point we lived in a two family house in a densly populated area
and were on the second floor). After that, we bought a slab ranch in a better
area, and she still gets her walks (but not as often), and we tie her leash to
a screw eye right outside the door. She will stay there for hours in the good 
weather (sometimes even all day!). 

	The whole issue of indoor vs. outdoor vs. out on a leash only is a 
very complex one. In some areas, indoors is the only sane way. In others, the
total outdoor route may be just fine. HOWEVER, ONLY the CAT can really decide
what will work depending on its temperment. The indoor and/or leashed situation
is most easily accomplished (if the cat will let you) if started immediately!!!
That is, as a very young kitten. There is still no guarantee that it will work.

	I have known 4 cats (including cinnamon) which have been of the
primarily indoor and outdoor only with a leash type; and it worked very well
with all of them. They all lived (or are still living) a reasonably long life.

	I think that in the Urban/dense suburban environment the indoor only 
with outdoors on a leash where possible is the only fair way to have a cat. 
Our environment is just too dangerous for most cats to live out their full
lives in.

	/s/	Bob

I have mixed feelings about the whole indoor/outdoor issue. For the
last few years I have maintained a policy of allowing my two outdoors
only when I am home, and only in the daytime. (This doesn't always
work out, especially if I let them out at lunch and they don't want
to come back in before I have to go back to work.)

This doesn't really protect them from cars, dogs, etc. any more than
if I let them roam free, but it does give *me* some peace of mind,
and if something were to happen then at least I would be there to rush
them to the vet.

Then again, when Chiun had his car accident, I was at home. He was hit
half a block from the house, and would have lain in the road and
probably been hit again except for the semi-samaritan who carried
him to the sidewalk and drove away. My landlady happened to come home
just then and saw him; if she hadn't, he might have bled to death
right outside the house. A lot of ifs there.

I lived on a busier street then, and had only a small yard. Now, with
our hillside well away from the road, I feel easier about letting them
out; but even when I lived half a block from Mass. Ave., I wound
up letting them out when they wanted to go. I would sit around and
worry, but couldn't bring myself to keep them confined.

I suppose I've decided that the cats can have the freedom they want,
within limits, and if they suffer for it someday then I'll grieve.
Since I can't explain to them why they shouldn't go out, it doesn't
seem fair to make them pay for my worries about the future.

On the basis of keeping the cats healthy, though, I'd have to admit
that outside is much more dangerous. There are household dangers, too,
but of all the cats I've had over the years none of them has been
injured indoors. It's a choice between the quality of the cat's life -
if they've never been outdoors they probably won't miss it - and
yours. How much do you fret if they want out? How much do you worry
when they don't come in?

If they do go out, be prudent. See that they get their rabies,
enteritis and other shots. Check for fleas and mites. Keep an eye open
for signs of abscesses. If there's a lot of traffic in your area,
or loose dogs, or children inclined towards delinquency, or if your
cat has been declawed, consider keeping the cat in or building it
an enclosed run of some kind.

(Re declawing: I'm against it, in general, for reasons more emotional
than practical, but if it comes down to a choice between declawing
a cat and giving it a loving home, or leaving it claws and no home
at all, then remove the claws, keep it indoors, and be kind to it.)

-b

My two cats have been indoor cats only as lomg as we have had them.  At first
this made great sense, as we were on the third floor of an apartment building.
Now that we live in a rural house, we could let them out, but we don't want
them to get hurt; there are several nasty dogs in the area.  The cats have
the run of the house, and being indoors doesn't bother them at all.  
We used to have a hard time keeping Wellington from sneaking through an
open door, but since he zipped out in February into chest-high snow, he hasn't
bothered to try.  He does enjoy sitting out on our screened porch, however.

Neither of our cats are declawed, and that's the way we want it.
				Steve

I confess to having five cats (down from eight) and for this reason (and also
because I live in a less expensive area to rent) I have alway based my apt.
hunts on how many rooms would be available for the cats to play/run/hide from
each other in.  I had a great apt. in PA before I moved up here that had a
long hallway with a wooden floor that was their daily race track.  Fortunately
the neighbors downstairs got a chuckle out of the thundering herd (he was a
horse-race nut).  I now have a super apt. in Manchester with lots of rooms,
so I don't feel bad about keeping the monsters inside all the time.  Having
lost not one but two cats to road kill when I lived in the "wide-open spaces"
of the countryside, I can no longer live with the fear that comes with letting
cats out in the city.  I also have to admit, however, that in this most recent
apt. there is a side yard right off the back door (I live on the first floor),
and the last two weekends I have been experimenting with letting one out, but
I don't let her out of my sight, and fortunately she is content to stick right
around me.  This is too unfair to the others, however, who all sit in the win-
dows and look pitiable.  so I will probably discontinue the experiment.  The
landlord, however, is talking about fencing in the yard, so I am looking for-
ward to rigging up some type of enclosed (with chicken wire or some such) area
to let them out in.

Cathy

I have 3 cats (had an additional two foster cats for a while) so I can relate 
to look for places big enough for your cats.  I was living in an apartment in 
one of the busiest streets in Greenville (yes, we do have busy streets down here
when I got my kitties.  Four of the five were between 8 and 10 weeks when we
got them from the shelter.  I had no problems with them getting used to the 
indoor life.  (I'm sure it helped that they were spoiled rotten.)  They do have
a habit of rushing you at the door in nice weatherbut for the most part they 
are happy to be inside with me.  Cinnamon was one that showed up around my 
place and stuck when he realized I was a sucker for a stray.  At first, I let 
be indoor/outdoor because 1)His house training wasn't too great so I only 
wanted him inside when I could keep an eye on him, 2)It helped him get along 
with the other 4 cats to be there when they were together (at first.  Later
they all became partners in crime.), and 3) I didn't want to deprive him of the
great outdoors since he'd had 6 months or so of it already.  Well I worried
about him all the time.  When I finally gave up a couple months later and 
admitted that he was my cat and even if I could find a good home for him, I
was too attached to give him up, Itook him in to be neutered.  After the 
operation, I was supposed to keep him in for three days.  I decided to keep him
in as long as I could to see if he would put up with it.  Other than one 
Kamakazi cry at the door at about 3 in the morning the second night he was kept
in,  he never show the slightest inclination of wanting to go outside again.
(That cat's no dummy.  When I got him he was full of fleas and mites, was well
underweight  and had a case of herpes. (That's right herpes.  Ulcers in his 
mouth.) Now he was healthy clean and knew where the food was all the time.)
This experience with Cinnamon has lessened my guilt over keeping the kitties
in.  That and the fact that they get all the walks they want and they are even
allowed to roam around in the back yard w/o a leash if I am with them.
   I've also seen and/or heard about my next-door neighbors' puppy being run
over and killed.  The people across the street lost a puppy.  The people two
houses down from me had their puppy run over in front of their house and they
lost two cat within a week. (The man swears that a bobcat got them.  That's
not entirely impossible.  They do reside in this region and there are some 
wooded section big enough to hold a bob cat near my street.)  I've also seen 
many studies recently that see that a cat's life span more than doubles when 
they are all inside.  
   SO I guess I feel a lttle guilty about restraining them. (After all one
of the things I like about cats is their independence.)  But I have seen and 
heard enough that I won't even consider changing their situation unless I move 
out to a place in the country with acres of land and a house far from the road.

tlh

I think the indoor/outdoor decision depends on several things:

	1) What is the environment? We fortunately live on a fairly large
	   lot and the street in front of our house is not busy, so I don't
	   mind putting our cats out. In fact, I encourage them to go out.
	   We also have a dog who is tied up in the back yard. He "watches
	   over" the pusses and would chase away any other dogs who might
	   harass his buddies. Neighborhood kids are another concern.

	2) If the cat is declawed, don't put him out! Your taking away his
	   defenses and the ability to climb a tree to escape danger.

	3) In our case, our cats get "cabin fever" if kept indoors for
	   a long time. Our furniture and walls then suffer.

We've gone away on vacation for as long as two weeks with a neighbor watching
the pets. We've given orders that the cats be kept out at all times, weather
permitting (yes, they even go out in the dead of winter [but not for long!]).
Fortunately, they've always been waiting for us when we return.

The cats seem happier when left outdoors. I put them out in the morning,
give them some food, and go to work. They're usually waiting on the front
steps when we return in the evening. If they are happy, I am happy.

PS: I tried a leash on the cats but they wanted nothing to do with it. Start
young if you want to use a leash!

-- Bill

     I have lived in New England for 9 years now and most of those years I
have owned a cat.  Most of the time I have lived on fairly quiet streets.
My cats have always been allowed out.  Tigger has a really good street sense.
One of the few times I lived on a busy street, I lived across the street from
a convenience store.  When I would walk over there, Tigger would follow me
to the edge of our driveway and just sit while I went across the street.
Now, I am on a quiet street and often Tigger will sit under the mailbox and
watch cars go by.  If I was on a busy street now, Einstein would not be
allowed out.  He is not overly intelligent and I worry about him.  When
I lived across from the convenience store, Tigger had a litter of kittens
and I kept one.  He did venture out in front of a car and got run over.
I think street-sense is inherited and a cat either has it or doesn't.

     I have never had a cat get sick (ever), So I can't say being outside
has been unhealthy.  They seem to really love it.  I am originally from
Los Angeles and have had enough city living.  I like being out and away
from the traffic of a city.  Other responses in this file seem to indicate
I am not alone in thinking of how the cats would like each place I look
at.  I am currently house hunting and I think the realtor gets upset every
time I tell her, "Nope.  I don't think the cats would like this one."

     I moved once and my trusted feline, "Prunes", jumped out the window
of the car at the tollbooth on the turnpike.  I spent 6 hours (along with
a friend and a very nice policeman) in a train yard trying to find the
cat.  She never returned.  She found me after getting lost, so I like to
think she found a good home.  Anyway, I kind of figured after that, that
if something is going to happen to the cat, it can happen anywhere.  I
will always let my cat's out.

	A friend of mine let his cat outdoors and its entire temperament
changed.  It got nasty!  It caught ear mites, and we figured that was the
reason; later we found that it was nasty indoors and friendly outdoors?
	A question:  At what age should a cat be let outside, if at all?
		<_Jym_>

Two weeks later, I have a reply for you.  We have always had outdoor cats,
and after they are brought to their new home, I let mine out the next day and
keep an eye on him.  Just for a few hours or so, then bring him in.  Get him
used to the area (if you want an outdoor cat, of course).  Do this for about
a week, keep an litter box in the house, too.  Then he will like going out-
side and he'll know his way around.

Nichole

	Cats are far less domesticated than dogs - they don't have pack
	instinct, so living with humans is kind of a strain on them. Most
	cats who are kept indoors (that I have met) have gone nuts from the
	confinement, in my book. Their behavior is strange to me.

	I've been with cats since I was born, except for a five year stint
	in New York City. They've all been outdoors cats. Any cat will be an
	outdoors cat if given the opportunity. Owning a cat in the city is a
	bad idea - you are certainly doing the cat no favor.

	Cats run their own show. They come in, they go out - they live
	adventureous lives by their own choosing, and sometimes they die doing
	it. You can keep a cat alive much longer if you neuter it, declaw it,
	lobotomize it, and keep it in a germ-free environment. But the cat
	won't thank you for it, and after all that, it's hardly a cat any more,
	is it?

	If what you're looking for in a pet is a warm teddy-bear, go buy one.
	But don't surgically alter a good cat to fit your prescription. They
	didn't ask for your "kindness" - they just want to be a cat, and take
	the risks that that implies.

					That's not a flame - that's truth.

I would agree with you, but....

We have put smooth roads with fast cars into the out-doors.  We have imported
all sorts of strange dogs, bred them to be fierce, and let them run around
in the outdoors.  We have children, some of whom are "not well trained".  We
have garbage, traps, insecticides, herbacides, and strange non-native
poisonous plants.  We have animals which are fiercer because we have reduced
their normal range by building cities and roads.  The outdoors hasn't thanked
us for it, and after all that, it's hardly an outdoors (fit for a cat) any
more, is it?

The best I can add to this is that the temperament of my cats improved upon
becoming outdoor animals.  Chaucer became sleek again instead of just getting 
heavier and heavier.  And Shadow became much gentler.  Another thing I noticed
was that in Shadow's litter, the livelier, more interesting kittens were the
ones that mama had managed to drag outside (I suppose to hide them, nobody
could figure why Pookie, outdoor only cat, would drag her kittens out of a
second story window to hide them outside).  The kittens had been exposed to a
larger world and their limited minds seemed to benefit.  The only way I worry
about them outside is the pound.  I'm not sure if Ga. leash laws include cats.
If I ever don't see them for more than 3 or 4 days, that's where I'll look
first.  But after seeing them become livelier, friendlier cats outside, I
don't think I can bring them in for too long again.

Beth

P.S. I was in Bedford for training when Chris, a friend, decided it was time
to toss the cats outside ( they broke a glass, a GOOD glass).  The only bad
reaction came with the first rain storm-Shadow had been heretofore an indoor
only cat and freaked out.  Now it's no big deal.

I have been associated with 3 different cats over the years (two my own, and
one my sister's) and all have been entirely indoor cats. All three were quite
happy to stay indoors, and expressed NO interest in going out. In fact, my last
cat would cry if the door were left open. It is important to note though, that
all three of these cats were indoor cats from the time they were born, were
nutered, and were "only cats".  As a result, the related well to their
environments. 

I also think that cats pick up their owner's personalties; If you are a 
"homebody" your cat is likely to be one too.

LET ME CORRECT ONE MISTAKEN IMPRESSION I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL TIMES IN THE FILE
(I am reading it from the start) SO FAR. Indoor cats CAN get ear mites, as well
as various sorts of infections.  So if you see your indoor cat rubbing and
scratching its ears alot, get it to the VET.

I am a confirmed outdoor cat person.  

When I was growing up, we had lots of cats.  Total count was well over 60,
most of whom lived with us for over 10 years.  ALL of them were outdoors cats.

Sure - we had cats die in road accidents, had a few run away, and had several
die from diseases they may or may not have caught if we had kept them inside.
And I'm quite certain that very few of the cats we had lived out their full
lives in terms of years. 

But a full life for a cat doesn't have to be long.  Cats are independent.  As
far as I can tell, they don't want to be protected from the world - they feel
the world needs protection from THEM.  

Robert Heinlein once wrote something to the effect that you can't enslave a 
free man - the worst you can do is kill him.  This maxim is also true of a
cat.  You can dig out a cat's claws, feed it predigested pap out of a can, and
exercise it on a leash, but you can't change the fact that a cat is a
carnivore, and one of the most efficient hunting animals ever devised.  Watch
a sleeping cat twitch sometime.  You think it's dreaming of running on a
leash, or chasing a ball of yarn?

Lest this sound too altruistic to be true, rest assured.  It is.  The main 
reason that I let my cats out is the enjoyment I get out of it.  Watching our 
cats frisk in the woodlot from the kitchen window makes me want to go out and 
chase leaves, too.  Finding a deceased little present on the doorstep is the 
surest way to tell that our cats like us.  If they didn't, they'd eat it 
themselves, right?

That said, I think there are perfectly good reasons for keeping an indoors 
cat.  When I was living in an apartment in a city, I refused to keep a cat.  
But I always knew I would be moving into a house in a more rural area, and 
that I would be raising cats in the future.  Someone without that luxury 
shouldn't necessarily deprive themselves of at least some of the joys of
owning a cat.  But I personally wouldn't do it to such a proud animal.  I get 
a dog first.  One of those little yappy brainless ones, that wouldn't know I 
was torturing it.

- Chris Walsh

If I got one of those yappy little brainless dogs, IT would be torturing ME!

   
    A rousing Amen to yappy brainless dogs.
 
    Dogs are like kids...  They are great to play with for an hour
or so, but boy isn't it great to give them back to their parents/owners
when the time is up.

tlh

Hi!

I've had fights with myself for years about in/out and finally
decided it was in!  The major reason was Tiff, our (now) 12 year
old Siamese.  When we bought Tiff he was 6 months old and was 
raised outside - but stupid.  Everytime he went outside he sat in the
street, I guess the pavement was warm.  Cars buzzed by nearly
missing him and he simply looked offended that he was nearly hit.  He's
not been outside since then - besides my neighbors were getting a 
little tired of bringing him home "he was in the street again."

My last cat (I have 3) was a Digital cat at MK - poor starving thing that
had a flea collar on that she had outgrown months before.  Punkers was
SO glad to have a home that in the last 1 1/2 years she has not asked to
go outside.  If the door is opened she runs as fast as she can upstairs
and under the bed.

All three cats mean so very much to my daughter - that taking a chance on
losing them is just to devastating to think about.

Besides the outside restriction we don't try to "humanize" our cats -
we like them just like they are!!

I'm really enjoying this notes file.  

Bye,

CC

       Someone asked me why I object to outdoor only cats, so I thought
    it was time to clarify and expand my earlier remarks (as
    RAVEN1::HOLLABAUGH).  
      
       I stated that I prefer to not declaw cats but that I would place
    a cat with someone who would declaw it and keep it inside rather
    than give it to someone who would make it be outdoor only.
    Let me say that I would rather place a cat on a farm as an outdoor
    cat than see it put to sleep.
    
       First, my emotional reaction to outdoor cats.  I consider my cats
    part of my family.  We probably treat our cats as well or better than
    most people treat their kids.  Because of this, I don't like the idea
    of a cat living with a family that considers him second class, there
    only to catch mice, not allowed in side to mess things up. 
    
       Now my reasonable reaction to outdoor cats.  Cats who live inside
    escape many dangers that face outdoor cats.  Dogs, bobcats, and
    wolves can't get to them.  (Our neighbor thinks he lost at least
    one cat to a bobcat.) Cars can't run over them. (At least 5 pets
    in the 4 or 5 house area surrounding us have been hit by cars in
    the 2 years we've lived here.)  They can't come in contact with
    animals who will spread such nasties as FeLV (feline Leukemia virus,
    a usually fatal disease).  (10% of the cat population each year
    dies of FeLV. and vaccinations are *not* foolproof.)  Cats who hunt
    are subject to a disease called toxoplasmosis (that can be passed
    to humans) that they would not come in contact with inside unless
    you feed them raw meat.  Up there I would worry about the cold and
    the kitty.  Down here, it actully gets warm enough some summers
    (107 degrees, 3 summers ago) that you have to worry about heat stroke.
    
       Cats who live inside are safe from things that man has done to
    make their natural enviroment unsafe.  In addition to cars there
    are traps.  (my husband's grandparents suspect that the reason why
    Ming has not come home is because he may have been caught in a trap.)
    Worst of all, humans are a danger to cats.  Some people think it's
    fun to torture cats, to shoot them.  (If you think this is a rare
    occurance, talk to the people at your local humane society or ASPCA
    chapter.) 
    
       Cats who live inside are there for you to observe.  You can see their
    eating habits, the bowel movements and urination efforts, and how much
    time they spend sleeping.  All are important clues to when something is
    going wrong with your kitty's health.  The more familiar you are with
    your kitty, the sooner you are likely to notice illness.  And as someone
    pointed out today in a different note, it is SO important to get the
    cat treated immediately upon showing symptoms.  I just don't believe
    you can keep close enough track of kitty when you only see it a
    little every day. 

        The last study I read on the subject said that cats who are
    indoor only tend to live *at least* twice as long as outdoor cats.
    And the more time they spend inside the longer their life tends
    to be.  (These results may be a bit skewed by the fact that people
    who keep cats inside are more likely to take them to the vet.  Whatever
    the reason, the effect is undeniable.)
    
       I see no valid reason to leave a cat outside.   I don't like
    cats mousing for the reasons stated above.  People who are allergic
    to cats can live with them if they follow some guidelines. (I'll
    post a pointer to a note with info about cat allergies later.)
    I don't really think the kitties miss the great outdoors that much.
    Especially if you take them outside supervised and provide an
    interesting environment for them inside.
    
                                                           
       I understand that there are people who feel differently about
    cats than I do and I don't condemn that.  But feeling as I do, I'll
    make every effort to place a cat with someone whose views coincide
    with my own.  And that means indoor only.
    
    
    tlh                          
    

       See note #215 for information on cat allergies.
    
    tlh
    

    I agree with Tracy on why it is healthier and safer to keep cats
    indoors.  Although until I moved to NH two years ago, my previous
    cats (all but one are dead) were allowed outdoors whenever they
    wanted.  This proved to be fatal due to disease and savage dogs
    that were turned loose at night due to a leash law in the area I
    lived in.  After hearing the blood curdling cry of one of my cats
    as it got it's neck broken by a dog, and my other cat (that I still
    have now) got a dog's fang almost through to the spinal cord, I
    decided then and there that I would not let another cat of mine
    outside.  
    
    The cat that I mentioned who survived the fang bite is now 8 years
    old and a neutered male.  He's adjusted perfectly to inside living
    and has no desire to go out an opened door.  I also have a spayed
    female cat (now 1 and 1/2 yrs.) who has never been outside and she
    also has accepted the indoor life with no hangups.  They have their
    window seat and enjoy watching the birds and other life forms coming
    in the yard below; they often fall asleep while watching.
    
    They've had all their shots including the feline leukemia shots
    as I was informed by my Vet that even indoor cats can contract such
    diseases by fleas, etc.  Screens on windows do not prevent fleas
    from entering homes.
    
    In reference to the disease Toxoplasmosis that Tracy mentioned,
    I had a recent experience with this.  It happened when I took in
    an abandoned cat into my apt.  A Vet (not mine) had already seen
    the cat and diagnosed it as having "some sort of an infection -
    they didn't know what kind".  They had it on an antibiotic and I
    continued to give it to the cat.  My apt. is not set up to isolate
    animals too well and I unfortunately had only one cage to use for
    the cat - my old Chinchilla cage when I had a pet Chinchilla at
    one time.  The cat used the cage as his "bed" and I set up two dishes
    for his water and food.
    
    Not knowing that he had Toxoplasmosis at the time, I tried desperately
    for two weeks to help him and get him to take norishment.  He just
    became weaker and sicker.  Finally, I took him to a Vet who diagnosed
    this terrible disease.  A blood test to Cornell would have proven
    his diagnosis but I took his word for it.  At a cost of $400 the
    cat might have been saved but would have to be isolated in a home
    with no other pets and no women who might become pregnant.  It seems
    the disease is very contagious to pregnant women too.  He did not
    say I or any other member of my family might get the disease so
    I hope Tracy was wrong about that part.  He said the way my cats
    or my two dogs might get it would be to accidentally ingest some
    of the sick cat's stool - this would be if they stepped in it say
    in the litter box (he had a separate litter box from my cats).
    
    Needless to say, I could not afford (nor if I could see any point
    in doing so) to pay $400 to save the cat who would only end up being
    a carrier of this terrible disease.  I had him humanely put down
    as I felt he had suffered enough.
    
    I am now closely watching my pets praying that they did not contract
    this disease.  If the first Vet had at least kept the cat in isolation
    and did the proper testing, it would have saved me a lot of worry
    now.
    
    Also, in keeping the cats inside - I live on a very busy street
    and my cats (and dogs) would not last one minute out there.  Drivers
    have even stepped up their cars to try to hit my dogs when  on their
    leashes trying to cross the street.  Believe me, it's a cruel world
    out there!
    
    

       Re: Toxoplasmosis
    
       Humans can get it.  It is manifested as a mild flu-like disease
    which is not serious unless you are pregnant.  Getting Toxoplasmosis
    while you're pregnant can cause birth defects.  (That's why the
    big hoorah exists about pregnant women, but not much concern about
    other humans.)
    
    tlh
    

Toxoplasmosis cost Martina Navratilova a big tennis tournament a
few years ago.  She had to drop out before the finals.  She probably
got it from her cat, as the other way of getting it (from raw meat)
is unlikely.  You can read the details in her autobiography.

    
    
    			ref indoor vs. outdoor
    
    My views on this matter are as follows.   Cat linage shows that
    traditionally cats are outdoor animals ; period...  you can 
    domesticate almost any kind of animal, with all the best intentions
    in the world, but when you get right down to it, cats were 'born
    to be free'. It is also their instinct to hunt.  In my opinion
    some people don't want cats, they want children!
    
    I think the world of my cats.  I talk with them, I keep them well
    fed and even though they are strictly outdoor cats, yes, I even
    take them to the vet regularly.  My cats are all individualists.
    When I talk to one by name, it will come right over and jump on
    my lap.
    
    I donot agree with declawing, with leashing or with keeping a cat
    inside all the time.  For years I went without cats because I did
    not have a suitable inviroment for them, now that I do, I plan on
    having a 'lot' of them !!\
    \
    
    
    donna

    I feel also as other notes have stated that if the environment
    is hostile to cats such as lots of dogs or heavy traffic its
    better to keep them indoors.
    
    My cat Millie likes to go outside, but only if she's supervised
    by an adult.  so I go outside with her for about 15 minutes and
    that suits her just fine. then she just goes back inside.
    She has been chased by 3 dogs just outside the front door and
    we live on a very buisy street with 128 in the edge of the back
    yard so it very dangerous for a curious minded cat.
    
    Millie likes to look out the window and she enjoys owning us
    and watching TV.  She's a people cat,  I guess this issue
    really depends on the cat personality some cats are just
    indoor cat and very dependent on people for attention and
    other cats I've found male to be very independent and 
    thrive on going outside most of the time and hunting
    or finding a cat mate.  If your cat is happy just staying
    in and being with you I think thats fine, but if they 
    get cabin fever and are miserable being cooped up than
    they should be in a suitable envirnment, and not forced
    to adapt to being indoors where they're unhappy.
    
    

    We've had two cats I can remember, with very different personalities.
    The first, Tom (sorry, Takeval Tom Mutley), was a half-wild black
    and white monster we had in Cyprus for three years. It spent as
    much time indoors as out. Tom was also a hunting cat; the odd snake
    or lizard would be dumped on the doorstep much to my mum's horror.
    Dad used to go for a walk with Tom, who would disappear for a few
    minutes to return with something!
    
    Sadly, Tom was hit by a car very early on, but he survived. My dad
    stayed up all night and fed him whiskey and milk. He was a very
    drunk but alive kitty in the morning! His sister and brother (Toby)
    did not do so well. Toby died of Cat-Flu, and the sister was crushed
    under the back wheel of a car.
    
    Tom was more or less terrified of strangers after his accident;
    still that didn't stop him from the outdoor life. When my dad's
    RAF tour finished in Cyprus we had to return to England, we had
    Tom gassed (*sniff*). We didn't think he would survive the LONG
    quarantine period without us...
    
    Our present moggy is white, female (neutered), and DEAF. So are
    most white cats, I believe. Boy is she docile! She stays mostly
    indoors or in the garden. I've never seen her out of there or anywhere
    near the front garden and main street. She's not a lap cat; I've
    got the scars to prove it. Nowadays she spends all her time asleep
    (she's getting on a bit). She used to catch birds but, not recently.
    
    It seems to depend on the cat wether it likes Indoors or Outdoors.
    But after Tom's accident I think I'd prefer to keep 'em IN if they'll
    accept it.
    
    

    I am a new employee of Digital and I just happened to stumble on
    to this file...I thinks it's great!  I've just read all 25 replies
    to this topic and I agree that the "quality of a cat's life" depends
    on his/her personality.
    
    I got Underfoot (named because of her insistence of being under
    my feet when she was a kitten) when she was 8 weeks old.  From the
    very beginning, she never ran for the open doors or tried to jump
    out any windows.  She was perfectly happy to play by herself all
    night, and then sleep all day.
    
    Then, I started to notice that she was getting listless and unhappy.
    She wouldn't eat right and she'd follow me everywhere I went in
    the apartment.  I was working two jobs and she was spending far
    too much time alone.  That was when I decided to get her a playmate.
    
    Jellybean came to me from a friend that was moving and couldn't
    take her with her.  I was her only hope from being put to sleep,
    so needless to say, I jumped at the chance to take her.  She had
    been an outside cat most of her life and had the scars to prove
    it.  I was a little apprehensive to bring in a cat that was so
    different from Underfoot, but after about a week she adjusted to
    being inside very well. 
    
    Jellybean wasn't a very good "people" cat (and she still isn't, but
    I love her anyway) because my friend told me that several times on
    her escapades outside she was abused by neighborhood kids.  To this
    day, she still runs away from strangers, and even runs from me when
    I try to approach her to fast.  
    
    You can tell when a cat is happy and when it's not....I personally
    feel that as long as I give my cats the love and attention they
    deserve then they wouldn't care if they lived at the North Pole.
    When I come home from work, they run at the door because I'm home,
    not because they want to go out!                                
    
    --kab

    I have mixed feelings.  It depends on why one has cats.  We have
    had, and presently have several cats.  Buttons is almost 8 years
    old and has never been outside.  she is very content.  Tux(Tuxedo
    Junction) has been in and out.  Since we have a barn, it is necessary
    to have cats out there.  Tux is an exellent mouser, as are her
    daughters White Tie and Formal.  We have had as many as 14 cats
    at one time, but is very hard to handle when a neighbor tells you
    they just disposed of one of you cats found in the middle of the
    street having been struck by a passing car.  The outside cats seem
    to understand that the barn is there home, and appear to be content
    living there.

    A few years ago I adopted a cat named Taffy from the Humane Society.  I
    was living in an apartmentthat didn't allow pets, so, I kept her in.
    I had her for almost 2 years.  She was about 3 years old and the
    ladie I adopted her from said she wasn't sure whether or not she
    was and indoor or an outdoor cat.  
    
    My landlord found out about the cat and asked that I get rid of
    her or move out.  Because of the lack of apartments that allow cats
    I finally decided to find a home for her.  
    
    A guy I worked with was looking for a cat, but wanted on that would
    go outdoors.  Since Taffy was always wanting to go outside, I thought
    his would be a good home.  Well, about 2 weeks later hecame to me 
    and said that Taffy hadn't been eating.  He thought it might be
    best to give her back to me.  I told him I'd take her.
    
    When he brought her over she was a mess.  She had lost a lot of
    weight and looked very frail.  She looked as though she had been
    in a fight.  Her chin had a big gash in it.  I called my girlfriend,
    who owns a couple of cats, and had her come over and look at her.
    We checked Taffy over and found a huge lump on her head.  The gash
    was a little hard for us to clean so we brought her to the vets.
    The vet said the lump on her head was an absess.  This was why she
    was not eating. The poor thing must have been in so much pain. 
    Well, the vet put a drain in to relieve the pressure and cleaned
    up her chin.  I brought her home and took care of her for the next
    couple of weeks.  I got her weight back up and her wounds healed.
    Then I finally decided to bring her to the Humane Society.  I found
    one in Pepperell that said they keep them until they find a home
    for them (as long as it takes).
    
    Well, after that experience, I don't think I'll ever have an outdoor
    cat.  I don't want to see any cat of mine look like that again.
    It's to painful.
    
    Kathy

    The whole issue of indoor vs outdoor is so controversial and most
    people have very strong opinions about it.  I am one of those people.
    Reading through this file has brought my blood pressure up to the
    boiling point!  So now I have to let it all out.  I feel that the
    whole issue here is a pet owner's sense of responsibility ( or lack
    of it).  Responsible pet owners will take every precaution to protect
    their pets from danger.  I am not limiting this to cats, dogs need
    to be protected from dangers also.  Cats and dogs are DOMESTIC ANIMALS!
    THEY WERE NOT MEANT TO ROAM THE STREETS, OR ALLEYS, OR FIELDS LOOKING
    FOR FOOD OR EXCITEMENT!  They do not know the concept of being
    "adventurous".  They know only the concept of survival.  They do
    what they must to survive.  Their instinct tells them to hunt to
    survive.  They roam because of the hunt instinct and the mating
    instinct. We (humans collectively) domesticated these animals and
    now it is our responsibility to protect them from the dangers that
    our society has produced.
    
    	*Cats outside are not only subject to the dangers of cars, kids,
    	 vicious dogs, and adults with a hatred of cats, but what about
    	 the wide range of wild animals around.  In my area, outdoor
    	 pets have to protect themselves from opossums, raccoons, foxes,
    	 and others.  Some areas have wolves, bobcats, wild boars, hawks,
    	 and poisonous snakes.
    
    	*Cats should not be used as mousers.  Not only because of the
    	 dangers of Toxo, but also rabies.  Although not as prevalent
    	 as it once was it is still a problem in the US.
    
    	*Outdoor cats have an average life expenctancy of only two years!
    	 This information is from Cats Magazine.
    
    	*What about the possibility of your cat becoming trapped in
    	 someone's garage or basement and being without food or water
    	 for an extended period of time?  Or ingesting garden poisons
    	 or rat poisons? 
  
    I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion that indoor cats are
    psychologically damaged in any way by their confinement.  Indoor
    cats can remain happy and healthy if their owners provide them with
    the necessary environment.  They can stalk their stuffed mice, climb
    on their cat tree and sit contentedly on the window sill thankful
    that they are on the inside where it is warm and safe, instead of
    on the outside fighting for their lives.
    
    Contrary to popular belief, sick or injured cats will not return
    home to their owners for help but will find a quiet place to suffer
    in silence, often remaining there until they die.  Unless your cat
    is inside where its health can be monitored and it can be treated
    at the first sign of illness, an otherwise mild illness can quickly
    become life threatening.  Most of the time the first symptoms of
    illness are very subtle, and could not be detected by a cursory
    examination when the cat shows up.
    
    In closing I would like to say that I have been a cat owner for
    ten years now and I have had it both ways.  Experience has taught
    me that keeping my cats inside benefits both of us.  The cats enjoy
    better health, they are not afraid of people or loud noises, and
    they are much less aggressive.  The benefits that I enjoy are peace
    of mind, reduced vet bills and more loving cats.
    
    I would like to hear from other indoor cat advocates since the scale
    seems to be tipped the other way.  There must be more of you out
    there.
    
    Jo Ann 
    	

    I totally agree.  My cats are indoors for many of the reasons you
    stated, plus....... we also have always had dogs so the cats have
    no fear of dogs, and the consequences of that could be disastrous.
    
    My cats are also declawed, NO FLAMES PLEASE!!!!!, but they wouldn't
    know it.  They still climb their cat pole, it is to the celling,
    and sharpen their claws on *EVERYTHING*.  They go out with us, on
    occasion, but don't really like it outside, and are much happier
    in the house looking out at the world going by.
    
    Again, please no flames!
    
    M-L

    
    RE:8.31 BELFORTE
    
    YEAH!  I am glad to hear someone else protects their precious friends
    from the dangers that abound outside.  Also glad to hear that you
    also provide your cats with a floor to ceiling exercise pole.  Maybe
    we can stir up more interest from other indoor only people.
    
    Jo Ann
    

    Just to put my 2 cents in, I will not sell a kitten (even as a pet)
    to someone if they are going to let it outdoors!!!  I have refused
    many a sale because of this stipulation!!
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    RE .32
    
    Not only is it floor to ceiling, it is also right next to the waterbed:
    great fun at 3 am to take flying leaps, both on and off the bed
    to the pole.  Then from the pole to the bed to the dog is fun too,
    let's get the whole family up while we're at it.  I would much rather
    they do that then be out in the street at 3 am (I live right on
    RT 13).
    
    M-L

    I, too, go along with inside pets and agree with all thats been
    said.  Something that has not been mentioned is the fact that you
    just do not spend as much time with outside pets.  Think of the
    poor dog stationed a quarter mile from the house.  Cats are there
    for their dinner and then about their business (which you know nothing
    about).  You don't really get to know your animals and I don't think
    people really count them as part of the family when they are outside.
    
    Cheryl
    

    I BEG TO DIFFER WITH .35 !!! Each of my five cats is very much an
    individual and important member of the family as have been the ten
    or so cats before them. Each has a different personality and preference
    for in/out doors and each is allowed its choice. (The same is true
    for the dogs - two golden retreivers.)
    
    I've seen and taken in abandoned animals and I know people who by
    your standards and mine "neglect" their pets (without being deliberate
    about it).
    
    Of course they face dangers outside. I've lost cats to cars, illness
    and one to a hawk. But I also have a tom who, after being declawed,
    was able to bring down a hawk. He's my saber-toothed house cat,
    the alpha male, and a loyal friend. HE is happy sleeping by the
    fire, rolling in the cat-nip bed (planted for them), and accompanying
    us in our outdoor activities.
    
    Don't be confused or mistake what makes YOU happy with what makes
    THEM happy.
    
    

    I definately vtoe for indoors!  How many years did it take .36 to
    lose the 'ten or so cats' before the current 5?  I had outdoors
    cats when I was growing up with my parents, and one died of poisoning
    from a substance ingested outdoors, and another died of leukemia.
    My parents have revised their habits with respect to cats, and their
    current cat has live with them for over 10 years, and loves the
    porch, but doesn't go outside.  I have 6 cats, all indoors, and
    also have 5 floor to ceiling cat trees.  They make interesting
    decorations in the house.  The cats get plenty of excersize and
    attention.  My vets are always delighted to see me come in, because
    my cats are so well adjusted, healthy and easy to handle.  
    	Whether someone lets a cat out or not is up to them, but I for
    one, could not stand to know that a cat friend of mine had died
    or been injured away from home, especially if I could have prevented
    it.  Cats don't 'naturally' love to go outdoors.  Mine are downright
    frightened if I take them outside in my arms.  They have to learn
    to love it outside.  As far as I'm concerned, that's one more habit
    that I've managed not to let the cats get into.  
    	It's a frre country and the really important thing is that we
    are all doing what WE believe is right.  Bravo everyone!
    
    Molly 

I'll bet if we took a poll, we would discover a high correlation between
outdoor cat owners and people who think that seat-belt laws are an
infringement upon individual rights and responsibilities.  I'll bet we would
also find a high correlation between people who keep their cats indoors and
people who paid more than a few dollars for the cat.

Personally, I keep my cats indoors because I live right next to a major
highway, but I would let them out if I could.  I also think seat-belt laws (or
any law) that "protects me from myself" is stupid, and am horrified by the
prices I see bandied about casually by the breeders in this file.

- Chris

    re .38
    I think you're getting a bit off on a tangent, however, I would
    vote for seat belts, and I do let my cats out. :-) 
    
    When I lived in the city I did keep my cats in. Where we are now
    is extremely rural. Over the years I have not lost a cat as a result
    of their being an indoor/outdoor animal. 
    
    We live in a *very* old house. One that the cats can get into and
    out of without bothering to use the doors. 
    
    I personally prefer to have my cats keep down the rodents that
    trouble my chicken house and barn than to use poisons or traps.
    
    All my animals are vetted regularly and are in good health.

    They are also very affectionate and sleep on our beds at night.
    
    Bonnie

    RE .38
    
    I disagree with the staement, "I'll bet we would find a high
    correlation between people who keep their cats indoors and people
    who paid more than a few dollars for the cat.
    
    I have only paid for one cat (of the eight I had, now down to 2),
    and she only cost me for her shots, which I would have had to pay
    for anyway.  None of my cats have ever been allowed outdoors, unless
    on a lease, and with one of us adults with them.
    
    I keep mine indoors because I love them, and don't want them hurt
    by anything, be it car or other animal or illnesses they can more
    easily pick up when roaming loose.  I just plain LOVE them too much
    for them to roam free, and I'm sure they don't suffer any from it.
    
    Mary-Lynn

    Remember Lenny in "Of Mice and Men" ?
    
    	"I'm gonna petcha, and petcha, and petcha ... " to death.
    
    

    I drive up Rt. 495 from Milford to Acton every day and I see a number
    of dead animals, including cats, on the road.  Man has created an
    environment that is very difficult for any animal, wild or domestic
    to adjust to.  When you give your cat love at home, and then let
    him/her out to roam, how is he/she to learn about traffic?  The first
    lesson is usually fatal.                                              
                           
    Jim  
    

    Well, when Shadow wants to go "OUT" she wants to go "OUT" and there
    isn't much I could do to discouarge here. She has to go and check
    her territory for intruders. She isn't out for long and will
    park her butt on the nearest warm object in plain sight (read "car")
    until we let her in.
    
    I think all cats should have the opportunity to go out, but living
    out all the time isn't a good idea.
    
    (And we should all wear seatbelts too.)
    
    .mike.
    
                                                                       
    

I keep my cats in. Too many cats who dissapeared, had multiple abcesses,
been treed by dogs, hit by cars. It is up to the individual owner as to
what they do with each pet. 

I have heard the arguments on both sides and remain as unconvinced about
letting my cats out as I was by Rousseau's Noble Savage. A true outdoor cat is
feral and averages two years as the magazine article said. It no more thinks of
itself as living free and clean than the native of Terra del Fuega, or most
anyone does. Just as one responder was correct in saying that a person should
not project their values on a cat, by the same token, that responder's letting
their cat(s) out is no more absolutely justifiable.

Cats, people and other animals have both instincts and learned patterns
of behavior. They apply these to their respective environments. If they
live indoors then that is what they adapt to. If they live indoors/outdoors
that is what they adapt to.

Just as a dam built by a man is no less `natural' than one built by a beaver
(please note the scales involved, I ain't talking about Hoover Dam here)
a cat can exercise their abilities to hunt/play inside as well as out. 

Inside lacks stimulation of some of the kinds the out-of-doors provides, but
that may be why when I come home during a rain storm the neighbors cats shoots
past me into my house. This is irritating because I must put the cat back out
after a while and then re-flea powder my cats again. Malcolm (my Maine Coon) is
allergic to fleas and would scratch himself bald otherwise. Cats seem better
able than people to produce their own stimulation. 

    re .36  Don't be confused or mistake what makes YOU happy with what
    makes THEM happy.
    
    Without sounding snarky, I don't think that most cats will be made
    happy by being hit by a car, or attacked by a dog, or any of the
    other dangers outdoor animals are exposed to.
    
    The important thing is that you have made the choice that works
    best for you.  I suspect that one day you may be among those of
    us that argue in favor of indoors.  Most of us used to let our animals
    outside until something happened that made us rethink that decision.
    The following is the story of how I made my decision.
    
    My husband and I had just moved to Morgan Hill, a small town about
    30 miles south of San Jose California.  Our house was located far
    from any busy streets and flanked by open fields so we decided to
    let our cats get to know the great outdoors.  About 6 months after
    moving in, Chrissy (the first cat I had ever owned), disappeared.
    
    I spent everyday at the animal shelter looking for her, checking
    the list of dead cats that they have, looking up the found cats
    in our area and perusing the cages of the cats up for adoption.
    As anyone who has done this knows, this was very difficult.  Not
    only are you upset that your cat isn't there, but also because of
    the sense of frustration caused by not being able to help all the
    other cats that *are* there.
    
    During the weeks that I spent at the shelter I kept up with the
    progress of a mother cat and her 5 kittens.  The animal shelter
    people told me that the queen had delivered at the shelter the day
    she was brought in.  The kittens were supposed to be put down
    immediately according to the humane society rules, but nobody had
    the heart to do it.  Since they had the room available they let
    the kittens stay with the hopes that no one would figure it out
    til the kittens were safely adopted.
    
    One kitten in particular caught my attention.  He was the runt of
    the litter, he had big blue eyes, and a brilliant flame red coat.
    Ken and I decided to go ahead and take him since we had had no luck
    in locating Chrissy.  The day I went down to pick him up was the
    day the facility was inspected.  The oversight was found out and
    my kitten was scheduled to be euthanized.  It took hours of convincing
    arguements, coupled with out and out begging to convince the director
    that I should be allowed to adopt that kitten rather than having
    them put it to death.
    
    They gave in (finally) and we got him.  We dubbed him Harrison and
    proceeded to put some meat on the little bag of bones.  Harri grew
    into a beautiful cat in the next several months.  His coat turned
    out to be persian in type, very long and flowing, with a gorgeous
    classic tabby markings (bulls eyes and the works).  We loved Harri
    very much and he was a very special cat.  He was very affectionate
    and loving, often curling up on our laps at the end of the day for
    some cuddle sessions.
    
    We started letting Harrison outside when he was about 6 months old.
    At first he was closely supervised by one of us so that we could
    be sure that he was familiar with our house and his surroundings.
    As he got older he was allowed out on his own.
    
    One day as I got ready for work I glanced out and saw Harri curled
    up with Monroe (one of our other cats) in a ray of sunlight.  They
    were washing each other and seemed very content.  That was the last
    time I saw Harrison.  He wasn't there with the others to greet us
    when we arrived home that evening.
    
    Ken checked the street while I checked the pound.  We made up flyers
    and went door to door asking our neighbors if they had seen him.
    We put an ad in the newspaper and continued our search.  About three
    days later Ken was driving me to work when we saw an animal had
    been hit in the road.  We decided Ken should check it out on his
    way home even though it appeared to be an opossum.
    
    It was an opossum in the road, but walking back to the car he caught
    a flash of red out of the corner of his eye.  There under a bush
    on the side of the road was our Harrison.  He had been hit by a
    car and then tossed to the side of the road.  At first I was furious
    that some jerk in a speeding car had done this to him and not bothered
    to notify us as to what had happened!  Harri was wearing
    identification!  Then I was furious with myself for letting him
    out in the first place.  He had never expressed a desire to go outside.
    We had pretty much forced him out, because I always thought cats
    were meant to be out and about.  My cat had suffered.  His death
    came slowly and agonizingly.  My heart was broken and so was Ken's.
    We spent many nights holding each other and crying.
    
    The part that really suprised me was the reaction of one of our
    cats, Monroe.  Monroe would not eat for days, he wandered around
    the house crying and calling for Harri.  Harrison was a big part
    of all of our lives and the whole household grieved.
    
    We still miss Harri very much.  It has been four years now since
    his death, but pictures of him still make me sad.  We made our decision
    to keep our cats inside the day that we found Harrison's lifeless
    body under a bush at the side of the road.
    
    This is a story that I had to tell even though it has been very
    difficult for me.  I hope with all my heart that this never happens
    to any of you.
    
    Jo Ann
    
      
    
    

    Might as well add my 2 cents worth...
    
    As a child my family had on outdoor only cat, and two indoor/outdoor.
    All three male.  First (outdoor only) lasted less than 5 years -
    poison - suspected neighbor kids administored it.
    The other two arrived while I was in high school. One died at about
    7 (by that time was pretty much indoor only) as he was allergic
    to self and most everything else.  The other dissapeard for 3 years
    at about age 8 and returned at about age 12 in a really sorry state.
    Vet managed to get him back on his feet, but he had cancer and only
    really lasted a few months.
    My parents currently have 2 neutered cats (1 each) 'inheirited'
    at several years of age from a great aunt of mine.  Both are now
    indoors only (spent some time during kittenhood as outdoor/indoor)
    and are terrified of going outside.  One of them is allergic to
    both fleas and flea powder.
    Difference in my mothers house is amazing.  Now it doesn't smell
    like cat spray.
    
    I have two cats (now about 10 months) both fixed, both indoor only,
    (and I paid for them... only way I could find to get a maine coon
    cat)  They are also litter mates.  A lot of time has been invested
    in their training.  They don't scratch except one specified rug,
    and two cat trees, (rug is wicker, and only one in house)
    The only accidents are just that - accidents.  I am afraid I would
    not have a lot of patience with the 'on purposes' I have found
    described in this notes file.  (Mind you I put up with a cat throwing
    up every three hours for a whole night due to hair balls - vet fixed
    the problem next morning)
    
    My neighborhood is rural - lots of woods and trees and about 20
    dogs. raccoons, hawks, deer, and just about everything else.
    The neighbors cats are regularly treed by one or more of the dogs.
    (Dog owning neighbors were relieved to hear my cats were indoor
    only!)
    
    My cats also sleep with me - hug me - clean my face off etc. I don't
    want fleas either!  I think I made the right choice for myself and
    the cats.  The seem very happy.  (I also can't imagine getting the
    tangles out of their hair if they encountered anymore plants/trees
    than the 5 foot norfolk island pine in my living room!)
    
    \Sally
    
    p.s. I don't think cats personalities are lacking in outdoor cats
         they are just different - especially in full males.

    I really feel you've got to think hard on the enviroment before
    deciding whether cats are indoors outdoors or both.  I've known
    all sorts quite well and I don't feel it makes as much difference
    as we make ourselves believe through guilt of a loved one in the
    past.
    
    Just a few examples I've known:
    
    Puss: My mothers parents cat. BLACK & WHITE SHORTHAIRED MOGGY.
          She lived in an outhouse by a house in a dairy farming area
          Wales.
          She was happy, fed every day, and sociable so long as you
          didn't over fuss her.
          She was a mouser/ratter.  I supose that's a little easier
          when you haven't got rabies etc around to worry about.
          She lived to about 15 and eventually went missing - probably
          a fox got her.  Everyone was sad but then she'd had a good
          run, always looked healthy and it was a reasonable fair natural
          way to go ie:survival of the fittest.
    
    Smokey:Our families cat when I was a kid. GREY & WHITE MOGGY.
           He was one of Puss' kittens.  Born an outdoor cat, adapted
           quite happily to being a half and half.
           We lived in a town, not a city and had a mouse problem. 
           Having decided ( helped by a screaming fit from me aged 8
           and my younger brother) that an old fashioned mouse trap  
           was no good - who was going to remove the carcass? We decided
           on a cat, and Smokey was about to be "got rid off" 'cause
           no-one wanted a half wild tom.
           After he was first caught and ripped my Grandad's hands to
           shreds he was never vicious, loved being indoors but slept
           out at night.
           He lived to about 6.
           We moved and he was hit by a car on a main road, I think
           that was lucky though as we had had signs he was hunting on the
           railway nearby!
    
    Tootsie:Family cat after we'd moved again. BLACK & WHITE WITH LITTLE
            WHITE TOOTSIES HENCE THE NAME.
            Tootsie was pretty much an indoor cat, only allowed out
            in the mornings to relieve herself and when there was someone
            else in the garden with her.
            She was totally neurotic.  Having been chosen in a very
            selective animal rescue centre; they wouldn't let you buy
            a cat until they'd checked you out thoroughly ie: how many
            in family, where you lived, how much understanding of cats
            you had. 
            She had such endearing habits as sitting on your knee purring
            and the next minute trying her hardest to scratch your eyes
            out!  She also enjoyed jumping out of 1st floor windows.
            She unfortunately only lived to about 2 1/2. Another damn
            car.
    
    Dinah: My kitten. BEAUTIFUL TORTOISHELL FEMALE.
           Chosen in the pet shop 'cause when I went in she sat there
           sucking my finger meowing and purring like mad. Obviously
           to young to leave her mum, but al the more in need of a good
           home.  She started of in a terraced house in a city which
           I shared with a couple of other humans. She hated outside.
           She tried it once and cowered on the step, second time got
           stuck behind some chicken wire...all she had to do was walk 
           slowly back round it the way she'd come.  
           Due to her extreme lack of enthusiasm for the outside world
           I didn't feel one bit guilty when I moved to a flat where
           she couldn't go outside.
           She lived the shortest of all, about 9 months.
           So much for the indoor safety from germs bit...she died of
           feline leukemia.
    
    Tigger: My other half's half cat half beast tom.OLD ENGLISH TABBY
            WITH EYES YOU COULD FALL IN LOVE WITH.
            Tigg's was an outdoor cat who only came back in to eat and
            be fussed and protect him gang (Tosh his missus and Toddy
            Dee and Sam: his offspring, they could hardly be called
            kittens.)  Tigg's went out in areas where brats with air-rifles
            tried to get any cats but his gang, where alsations ran
            from him frequently, and then adapted great to being indoors.
            His only sign off thinking of the outdoors was to occasionally
            go and sniff through the letterbox, but never try to run
            out. 
            Tigg's is still going today as far as I know, staying with
            someone else but a survivor above all and mighty adaptable.
    
    
    Sukie and Jasmine: My parents present cats. Both pure black shorthair
                       sisters.  Lovely in every respect, purrfect little
                       ladies.  They live indoors, only going out to
                        stalk birds in the back garden, and see of other
                       cats(as long as they've got human backing).
                       Sukie adores watching TV programmes with animals
                       or birds in  - nothing so funny as watching a
                       little black fluffy dafthead try to catch an
                       elephant on TV.
                       Both alive and purring at around 6yrs a piece.
    
    Lastly there's Kitten: black and white, lived with my Grandparents
                           on my dads side for a happy 20 or so years
                           in a place near Blackpool.
                           She was an outdoor cat who came in in the
                           evenings to sleep in the kitchen.
                           She had her "hup-hup" which was her stool
                           so called because G'dad used to say "Come
                           on get hup, onto your stool." 
                           Kitten didn't get savaged by a dog 'cause
                           she was out, neither did she get run over
                           or killed by a wild animal. Kitten just floated
                           of one night in a dream to Pussy Cat Heaven.
                           OK as she was getting on although she was
                           an outdoors cat she didn't really behave
                           it: the blackbirds used to love coming into the 
                           garden to pick the bread my grandad used to
                           bake for them from around Kitten. But boy
                           was she happy. She'd got all her basic needs 
                           plus freedom in a place where the risks weren't 
                           too much.
    
    
    Basically I don't think any of them were worse off through being
    indoor/outdoor cats. Its all down to how much love, how worthwhile
    life is and A HELL OF A LOT OF GOOD LUCK. 
    
                                                                           
    
    By the way I think my mum said it all when we lost our darling Tootsie.
    
    "Damn cats, you give them all your love and they go and 
    break your heart." 

Re: .-1

Sorry, but I find the idea that a cat I've know for 15 years "gotten by a fox"
to be absolutely a hideous way for a friend to die!!!

And for that matter, I feel that dying under the wheels of a car just as
ugly and painful.  You mentioned losing a cat the leukemia..which is a virus and
is caught by cats being exposed to other sick cats.  the fact that
Dinah was exposed before you got her only means that other cats were outside
to contact the disease and spread it to Dinah.

Cats that are screened for the virus and don't have it...don't ever get it
if they are indoor only cats. 

    RE: -2
    
    I agree with .-1.  I found no joys or promotion of outdoor living in
    the unfortunate deaths of your various cats from foxes and cars.
    Instead, I felt even more justified for keeping my cats indoors for a
    long and healthy life! 
    
    I still believe that it is an individual decision, but don't see being
    killed by a car a fitting end for a dear companion and friend. 

    Tiki, my 2 year old cat was once an indoor/outdoor on a leash cat,
    until this past March when I moved to a dead end street in the suburbs
    with plenty of woods and things to do.  She was kept in for 2 years
    ( that was tough because she's a wild women) successfully and walked
    on a leash every so often beacuse I lived off of Route 9 in a densly
    built area of the city.  My main reason for moving was the location,
    and am so glad that I can let her out now.  She is so happy and
    loves to hunt she never comes in anymore.  I am so glad I kept her
    in for the 2 years.  Now she is still alive to enjoy the outdoors
    which is really the best thing for a crazy cat like her.  I made
    the mistake to let my last cat out in the previous place and lost
    her after 2 months on route 9.  I know many people who have kept
    their cats in all their lives and lived to be 17, 18, - 20 years.
    It just varies on the cats' tempermant.
    
    Sal
    z

    I have 3 cats now, no long ago 4, so theres no confessing to someone
    like me who hopes that someday I will have a farm and plenty of
    cats.  However, in the city it is tough and you have to keep the
    little buggers to a minimum, or you'll go crazy if you keep them
    in.  I would'nt recommend putting up chicken wire to keep the cats
    in, unless it's 10 feet tall.  Cats are extremely high jumpers and
    once used to the great outdoors, will find any way possible to get
    free to roam.  Either let them out, or keep them in.  Letting them
    out for a little bit on their own, and then deciding to keep them
    in is a tease.  After all they are animals and even if domesticated,
    still seek the freedom of the great outdoors.  I had to keep my
    cat Tiki in for 2 years because I knew she would get killed if I
    let her out, it happened to the previous one. Where I lived was
    no place to even have a residential neighborhood, much less animals
    out.  It was tough keeping her in.  I felt so bad because she would
    race form window to window after the birds flying by, and tried
    to sneak out every time the others went out (they were older and
    brought up in the city). But I kept her in and when I finally moved
    to a great place for animals I let her out.  She is the most content
    little cat, so are the others (they lived long enough at the other
    place) that I have a hard time getting them to stay in.  In fact
    we are all happy, my furniture is spared, the others are'nt as
    depressed and life goes on.  You have to look at it this way.  Animals
    live a much richer life if they can have their freedom, even if
    it's short than a long boring life never knowing the outdoors. 
    Accidents happen and always will.  We just have to minimize the
    chances with our pets the same way we do for ourselves.  No one
    can stay sheltered forever and be happy.
    
    

    I'm not opposed to outdoor cats if conditions are right and
    precautions such as vaccines and collars are taken.  However ...
    
    <FLAME ON>
    
    I get really tired of people making blanket statements that
    indoor cats are lead "a boring life" and that they are unhappy.
    My cats do not lead a boring life.  They are also very happy
    cats.  If your cat was bored and unh indoors, then that
    describes *your* cat, not all indoor cats.  The subjective 
    observation does not hold up across the board.
    
    <FLAME OFF>
    
    Sorry for flaming. No personal attack intended.
    
    Donna

    Bravo, Bravo.  Precisely the point.  There are mechanical animals
    on the market now.  I believe just dogs and cats, but if your willing
    to spend many a buck on operations for this and that to tame an
    animal you might try buying one of the furry facimiles.  They'll
    live forever, providing you don't forget the batteries.
    z

    Re .52 (Donna):
    
    Seconded.  Our two, Karamaneh and Merlin, are _far_ from bored.
    Karamaneh, our Sealpoint, is very gregarious and spernds a lot of
    time interacting with whatever people are around.  When left to
    her own devices, she's still quite active, particularly with toys.
    Merlin, our Manx, is sleepy, but when he's awake, he's creative.
    He likes to play with water, he finds Strange Places to hide, and
    he does a few toys.  He has a thing about opening doors.
    
    When we're home, he occasionally likes to watch television.
    
    Neither is bored.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Tisha and Stanley have the best of both worlds, they are two sealpoint
    Siamese, indoor cats But, I own a two family house, I live on the
    second floor and have a screened in porch right off my kitchen.
    I leave the kitchen window open and they come and go as they please.
    They watch birds, bugs and cars all day. Cats are safe so are the
    birds.
    Eileen

re: .55 by CLEVER::SULLIVAN 

AND the cats aren't destroying your neighbors gardens or potted plants....
I REALLY hate it when my neighbor's cats mess up my yard....I don't allow
my cats or dogs to bother them, but they do not extend the same courtesy.

I told myself I was going to keep my mouth shut on this one as it seems to be
a no win situation.  However, after reading the last 56 opinions, I just have
to add my 2 cents worth (I guess I'm a glutton for punishment).  

First of all, I am SO tired of all these people who insinuate that I don't 
love my animals because I let them outside!  I happen to love my 2 cats with 
all my heart!  They are all the family I have as the rest of my family lives 
some 1000 miles away!  I make over these cats most all the time that I am home!
Drives some of my friends nuts!

I agree that there are dangers outside for the cats.  Especially now that we
had to go and invent cars to run them over! ;-)  I worry about my cats.  I can 
tell you all about trying to call my cat and not being able to through the tears
because she had not been home in 3 days.  Jo Ann, I can certainly tell you that
the story of Harrison brought tears to my eyes and made me want to prevent it
from ever happening to my Tiggy and Al.  However, I can't help but firmly 
believe that I am doing the RIGHT thing by my cats!!!  And to have you tell me
that I am irresponsible for doing so "brings MY blood pressure to a boiling 
point" too!  Having your loved ones harmed is a risk that we take in loving 
them!  Do you keep your children in the house all the time???  Do you think 
that they would be content to do so?  How about riding bikes, thats too 
dangerous too.  They could fall off and be seriously hurt!  I think from now 
on, all children should be kept indoors, out of all danger!  But then again, 
my Tiggy is not even a child!  At 4 years of age, I consider her an adult; 
capable of making her own decisions!  Al, on the other hand (14 weeks), is only 
allowed outside when I am around to supervise.  Someone else commented that 
her cats were quite happy to sit and watch the world go by from the window!  I 
don't know about you, but I sure couldn't be happy watching the "world go by" 
with me as a mere bystander!

And then there is the person who tells me that her cats are quite happy jumping
from the cat pole onto the waterbed.  Well I think that the cat pole shouldn't
be allowed!!!  What happens if one of the cats misjudges the distance and 
hits his head on the edge of the waterbed!  They could get a concussion, or 
worse be killed!  That person must certainly NOT love her cats to let them be 
exposed to such possible danger!!! ;-)  

As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between your cats and your 
children is that sooner or later, either your kids are going to rebel, or the
authorities are going to be around claiming abuse!  At least children are 
allowed to grow up and make their own decisions, your cats aren't!

I would also like to add that while growing up, I had an indoor/outdoor cat 
that lived to the ripe old age of 17!  He finally died of a severe sinus 
infection.  The infection came on suddenly.  The Vet tried to save him but he 
was just too old.  We had another indoor/outdoor cat that lived to 12.  Yes, 
he was put to sleep.  Reason:  a full grown man shot him in the eye with a 
pellet gun!!!  The damage was bad enough that the Vet recommended having him 
put to sleep.  Yes, this infuriates me, but then, so does hearing about PEOPLE 
getting killed at the hands of others!  Unfortunatly, its the REAL world, and 
you can't spend your life with your head in the sand because its safer!!!  And 
it isn't fair to force your cat to live that way either!

I have seen several notes in this file that refer to indoor/outdoor cats that
have lived well over the age of 10.  And yet several of you quote one of the
cat magazines as saying that the average age of a cat that is allowed outdoors
is 2.  In order to bring the average down to as low as 2 years, then there has 
to be an incredible amount of very young kittens in that statistic to offset 
these cats of 10+ years.  When we start looking at kittens, we have to start 
taking into consideration the ones that were unplanned.  The ones that owners 
couldn't find until it was too late.  The ones that didn't have owners.  The 
bottom line is that when you are dealing with very young kittens, its a 
completely different story than with fullgrown cats.  We all talk about the 
number of UNWANTED kittens there are in the world!  These kittens are born to 
NON-SPAYED cats which leads to a whole other issue of responsibility and has 
nothing to do with indoor vs. outdoor!  Kittens which are born indoors are 
ALMOST always WANTED and cared for kittens.  Otherwise they wouldn't have been
conceived in the first place (spaying).  Like I said before, as a kitten 
Al is allowed outside when I can supervise him.  Tiggy was introduced to the 
outdoors in the same way.  When I feel they are smart enough to handle the 
outdoors on their own, then I let them outside alone.  By handling the outdoors,
I mean knowing to climb a tree in danger, running from cars, not spending time 
in the street.  Then I feel that they are AWARE that there are dangers and all 
of their NATURAL senses are on the job as they should be!  I also make sure 
that they have, and are aware of, a place that they can go to stay dry and hide 
if I'm not there.  Right now there is a small opening under both the front and 
back porches that would not allow a dog to enter and where they can stay dry in 
case of unexpected weather.

My Tiggy is 4 years old.  She just visited the Vet last week for her yearly
checkup.  The Vet (as usual) carried on about what a beautiful, healthy cat
she is!!!  She is always kept current on her shots and Al will be too (he has
had his distemper, too young for rabies yet.  Both tested negative for Felv
last week and get first shot Thursday.).  I do this because I DO love them and
want to give them the best!!!  However, I REFUSE to mold them into some sort
of unnatural life because its less worrying for me!  To the person(s) who don't
want their cat to eat mice due to rabies, I would never have an animal that 
wasn't given a rabies vaccine!  I would feel irresponsible if I didn't!  Yes,
there are other illnesses that a cat can get from catching mice.  Once again,
I feel that it is the natural thing for cats to hunt and while I will do my
best to prevent them from getting any irreversible damage from doing so, I will
not prevent the hunting!  It would not be the NATURAL thing for the cat!

I would also like to add that in the past year when I have had to move twice,
my FIRST criteria of an acceptable location was whether or not it was a safe 
place for cats, with room to explore!  No busy streets for me!  When the first 
place proved to be unsafe for cats (due to the neighbors, not the location), 
Tiggy and I moved!  We lived there 4 mo. and ~2 mo. into it I found out 
that Tiggy wasn't wanted (I had signed permission from the landlord to keep a 
cat) and was being chased away by some of the people of the complex.  
Particularly an old senile man and another man who's wife is terrified of cats!
Until I was able to arrange the move I did not encourage Tiggy to go outside.  
However, when I was home and she requested to go out I did not stop her.  
I just kept a closer eye to see that no one harrassed her.  Fortunately it was 
during the winter when Tiggy only wants out for short spurts anyway!  What a
bad scene that was!

You claim to treat your cats as if they were family.  Well, as I have said 
before, you would not get away with such treatment of any other member of your
family!  You say that "we domesticated them, we have to be responsible for 
them".  Well, yes, we did make them tame or "domesticated".  So now we are 
going to further the damage and make them stay inside?  Never allowing them to 
learn of the real world?  One person tells that her cats grew up with dogs and
wouldn't know that some dogs can be dangerous outside.  Well, what happens if
somehow your cats DO end up outside?  YOU would be to blame if they got killed
by a dog because YOU never allowed them to learn (while supervised) that all 
dogs are not their friends.  I'm sorry, but I believe in the old saying that 
"two wrongs don't make a right"!  I refuse to take that much CONTROL over my 
"friends"!  Who do we really think we are anyway???  We decide when and who
they can have sex with (yes, Tiggy is spayed and Al will be neutered), where
and when they can play, what and when they can eat!  Do we really have a RIGHT 
to decide ALL these things for the cat???  I don't think so!!!  To me, doing so 
would take away from the creature that they are!

Finally, as far as I'm concerned my cats are never more beautiful than when 
they are outside, chasing a leaf blowing in the wind or rustling through the
tall grass!  Their eyes are always full of mischief when outside.  I get such
a kick out of Tiggy.  She always runs outside and rolls over on her back in
the dirt or on the concrete.  She rolls over and over scratching her back.  
Then she gets up, acting like Miss Priss and starts cleaning herself!  And I'm 
so jealous of Al!  I think it must feel so neat to be able to rustle through 
the grass at its level!  I know how wonderful it feels to go barefoot in the 
grass.  Imagine having it all the way up to your eyeballs!!! :*)

Yes, I do worry about my cats outside, but I am willing to live with the worry
in order to give my "kids" the freedom that they deserve!  Just like I will 
someday worry when I have kids (hopefully) out on a date.  It would certainly 
have been easier on my parents if I had never dated.  They could have gotten a 
good night sleep instead of staying up late to see that I got home safely.  I 
know that I am very happy that they were willing to live with their worry, 
rather than denying me the opportunity to date!!!


Just my opinion...

Now I think I will get my fire extinguisher ready before the sparks fly!


Lesa, Tiggy and Al (love that tall grass!!!)
    

Re: -.1

Okay, I won't beat up on you for having indoor/outdoor cats....
however, I will tell you I get %$#@*&! tired of repairing my garden and
disposing of other cat's solid waste because their owners feel the cats
have a right to invade my yard, mess up my garden, and tease my dog - 
which is always kept in her yard or run....If you can let your cat out
and guarentee it won't force your neighbors to deal with the mess it
leaves behind, then you have every right to do with your cat what you
will.  But, quite frankly, your freedom to do what you want ends at
my nose (or, in this case, at my property line).  I keep my animals
from bothering other people...I feel it is a responsibility of pet
ownership.  I expect the same respect from my neighbors....I have no
idea if your cats have acquired worms or other parasites in their
wanderings and therefore, their waste is something I cannot ignore as
it is a matter of health to myself, my guests, and my animals.

				D

I think that indoor versus outdoor is something we should all agree to
disagree on.  It's sort of like religion - and we shouldn't attack others
for their religious beliefs - we should listen to what they have to say
and make our own decision, but still respect the values of others.

Pam
(speaking as moderator)

    
    Re:  a previous note that said that outdoor cats have an average
    life span of 2 years...I've heard that the average life span for
    a *FERAL* cat is 3 years.  A family cat who is allowed outdoors
    has a much longer life span than that.  I forget the numbers, but
    I'm sure it was in the teens.  Indoor cats have a longer life span,
    but the difference was not nearly as large as that.
    
    Karen, Tristan and Tenzing.

    Re .51, and .57.
    
    Hear hear!!
    
    My cats have always been allowed out, and they enjoy it so much
    I couldn't keep them in (I couldn't anyway, short of sealing the
    windows, doors, and chimneys).  They have their own lives out there,
    hunting, climbing trees, and sleeping in the sun.  And, yes, they
    do get fleas, and they do eat mice and birds, and get worms, and
    they do occasionally get into fights and get bitten (no rabies over
    here, thank goodness).  But they get their injections, and they
    are regularly wormed and de-fleaed, and they go to the vets for
    antibiotics at the first sign of a cat bite.  And they don't claw
    the furniture, or use corners of the house as a litter tray, or
    exhibit other anti-social or neurotic behaviour indoors (most of
    the time anyway).  They have access to the house at all times via
    a cat door, and in summer they sleep all day in the garden, and
    in winter they sleep all day in the house.  And they seem to be
    happy that way!
    
    Helen.

    
    I guess I had it easy.
    Brina was a indoor/outdoor cat. The best part was she never left
    the yard. I moved 4 times while Brina was with me. Each time I would
    walk around the edge of the yard and thats as far as she went. She
    never got into anyone else's yard. My neighbors were kinda put
    out, they would call Brina over wanting to see her. She would go
    to the driveway and look at them as if to say, you want to see me
    come over here I can't leave my yard. She loved it outside and I
    couldn't make her stay in all the time. When I was out she wanted
    to be out. Brina has went on to kitty heaven.
    I now have a new kitty and am hoping I can get her to stay in the
    yard.

    I just read all these replies, wondering if anyone else will too...
    and want to add my $.02 also...
    
    I agree with the statements concerning this issue which say whether
    the cat should be let out or not depends on their personality. 
    There were many good arguments for both sides....however they have
    not changed my mind....  I do take offence to those who claim (although
    I tried not to at first, however ....I'll leave it at that)...I
    DONT love my cat, because I let her outside.  I love her to death,
    as well as the rest of my family, including a non cat person, and
    she is a spoiled rotten, queen of the house.  I want to do the best
    for her, so she has had all her shots, including the o[ptional type
    ones, and she is spayed...  I don't believe in declawing....  and
    she wouldn't have such a nice home if she shreddded the house.
    She goes crazy if not let out, she even has her own ways of letting
    us know she wants to go out, when she wants to come in, whatever.
    My neighbors love having her come around, as well as some of the
    other cats.  I have seen her "look both ways before crossing" and
    if a car is approaching, she waits till its safe (I dont live on
    a busy street, the only traffic is that of the people who live on
    the street).  She is very street smart!
    
    I started to feel for the person who was upset about his garden,
    I too have a garden, and hated to find presents and the like...
    however you'll always find insects and birds entering your garden
    and doing thier thing, how can you stop that?  Also what about the
    person who takes their animal out for walks and LETS them do their
    thing on SOMEONE ELSES lawn?  Its just as destructive and a roaming
    animal, but it seems more irresponsible.
    
    I value those who keep their cats inside, and someday hope to have
    one which I can keep as an indoor only, because their personalities
    seem, well different...plus I wont mind her licking my face and
    have to worry what she has been munching on....
    
    Enough said...
    michele & Nippa

    If you declaw a cat- it must then become an indoor cat, as it won't
    be able ot defend itself properly (nor climb trees to avoid
    confrontation). You can't take an outdoor cat and make it an inddor
    cat very easily. Once they like being outside, they'll want to go
    out often. About the only time making an outdoor cat an indoor cat
    works is when the cat is old and or sickly.
    
    the Doctah

re. -1

    > You can't take an outdoor cat and make it an inddor
    > cat very easily. Once they like being outside, they'll want to go
    > out often. About the only time making an outdoor cat an indoor cat
    > works is when the cat is old and or sickly.
    
NO, NO, a thousand times NO!  There have been many documented success
stories in this conference where an outdoor cat was made an indoor cat.
I myself adopted a stray who is very happy with her life as an indoor
cat.  She was neither old nor sickly.  From what I've read in this con-
ference, I'd say that *most* outdoor cats can/do adjust quite nicely
to an indoor-only situation.  Some do not.

Donna

    I guess I forgot my usual disclaimer (that generalizations always
    have exceptions). Usually, once a cat has been outside it wants
    to keep going outside. The temperament of your particular cat may
    be an exception to this. More power to ya. Most people who try to
    make an indoor cat out of an outdoor cat have more difficulty than
    you.
    
     Smiles-
    
     The Doctah

         You probably don't hear in this file all the times that the
    cats tried to get out and were stopped or all the crying and sadness
    they go thru getting used to never going out again.  I am truely
    saddened when I see the caging of such wonderful free spirits never
    to experience the joys of nature again.

    We had a wonderful compromize situation that we are in the process
    of re-creating.  The last apartment we had before we bought our
    house was in the second floor of a large house.  It had a deck off
    of the bedroom and we were able to rig up a "cat door" so the cats
    had free access to the deck.  The never showed any signs of jumping
    off (believe me, I watched for a while before I trusted that) and
    would spend hours out there watching all the activity in the neigh-
    borhood.  Cats are the world's biggest busy-bodies!  They really
    loved it.  Last year we built a deck on the house and allow the
    cats to go out there.  Its not quite finished yet, but will be soon
    and we're going to put some sort of wire fence around the railings
    so I won't worry at all when they're outside.  
      For us, that is an excellent solution - we live on busy streets
    with a number of tom-cats around who come in the yard and one
    big dog who has free run.
      Nancy DC_who_tries_to_find_creative_solutions and
        the furry foursome!

    We adopted a stray for three weeks - she had lived totally outdoors
    for the two years of her life.  She adapted over night to her inside
    living quarters - never a squeal to be let out.  She was just satisfied
    to be safe, warm and have regular meals.  Now that she's in her
    permanent home she'll be an indoor cat - I'm sure that she will
    have no problems.

    Both of my cats were indoor/outdoor until Dubbers got hit by the
    car (we live on an extremely busy street, but haven't had any problems
    up until now).  Since then we have been trying to get them both
    used to being indoors only.
    
    Dubbers hasn't show ANY interest in going outside as of yet - he's
    still concentrating on healing.  He used to spend most of his time
    indoors during the winter anyway, so hopefully by the time spring
    rolls around he'll have forgotten what it's like outside and not
    miss it.  But boy, can he drive you crazy when he does want to go
    out.
    
    Punjab isn't as much of a worry outside.  When she goes out, she
    usually spends her time either on the deck (laying on top of the
    gas grill sunbathing) or snoozing in the garage.  The only other
    time she wants out is when her box isn't clean enough for her tastes.
    She hasn't been out for a month or so, and I think she'll be easier
    to keep inside than Dubbers.
    
    Here's hoping it works out okay.....
    
    Joy

    I let my cats choose what they want to be.  Tarbaby was an outdoor cat
    that someone abandoned.  My neighbor found her outside a bar with all
    her ribs sticking out, soaking wet in the rain.  She has turned into a
    beautiful white-haired, brown-eyed beauty and she doesn't like to go
    outdoors very often.  I leave the screen on my front door year round
    and when it is warm enough, I leave the inside door open.  She is
    content to put her paws up on the screen and watch the world.  About 3
    times a year, she goes out and disappears for 2 days.  She comes back
    happy and stays in for months.  Tigger is an indoor/outdoor cat.  When
    it is above 50 degrees or so, she comes in only to eat and then goes
    and sits outside in the neighbor's yard.  The neighbor has a view of
    the swamp and Tigger likes to watch the swamp creatures.  My neighbor
    also loves the cat.  Then there's Einstein, my Maine Coon Cat.  He
    isn't home much at all.  He does spend an occasional evening getting
    brushed and scratched behind the ears but he likes to roam.  If he was
    a human, he'd be having an affair with the next door neighbor (not
    Tigger's friend but my neighbor on the other side), Cindy.  Cindy's
    husband, Leo, leaves for work just before I do and if Einstein is in,
    he leaves when I do.  He heads straight for Cindy's door where he is
    admitted and goes to lie by the wood stove and pick up his share of
    attention from Cindy.  Leo thinks that five cats and a dog are enough
    for any one household and doesn't allow visitors so Einstein, with some
    built-in clock, gets up 10 minutes before Leo is due home and asks to
    go out.  He then walks to my door and waits for me to arrive home and
    feed him and give him some love.  If it is warm, he goes out for the
    night and if it is cool, he often stays in.
    
    I live in the best neighborhood in the world to own cats.  The cats own
    the people and most cats have multiple people (One of Cindy's visits to
    eat and play with Tarbaby on a regular basis).  All our cats are
    neutered, the street is quiet and a half-mile of swamp separates us
    from the nearest busy road.  Realtors think I'm crazy because when I
    hunt for a house, I look for a place the cats will do well in.  I like
    to give my cats freedom with safety.
    

re .68
    
>         You probably don't hear in this file all the times that the
>    cats tried to get out and were stopped or all the crying and sadness
>    they go thru getting used to never going out again.  I am truely
>    saddened when I see the caging of such wonderful free spirits never
>    to experience the joys of nature again.

No need to be saddened for indoor cats.  The stray that I took in NEVER 
ONCE cried or tried to get out.  When I work in my yard in the summer my cats 
sit in the open windows and look out.  They do not sit and cry at the window 
because they can't go out.  While I couldn't possibly say that they are not 
*thinking* that they would like to go out, neither can you possibly say that 
they are *sad* because they cannot go out.  

Suffice to say that I think everyone in this conference *knows* if/when their
their cats are happy.  My cats are indoor cats.  I know that they are happy.
Please do not presume to tell me that they aren't.

Donna

    
    
          Yes my three will cry to go out but only when one of us is
    outside.  Big difference.  Their sad because they want to be with
    US.  
    
          I have to say I AM NOT in the right frame of mind to be in
    this note.  You see right before I came in I passed this BEAUTIFUL
    cat on the side of road.  Wouldn't have noticed her if my headlights
    wouldn't have picked up the green of her eyes.  And yes I can't
    help but wonder if her owners would have adamantely defended her
    right to be free.  
    
                       Alot of frigin good that did her.
    
                                                                kim

    My Meggie's freedom left her greatly pregnant and left out to fend
    for herself.  Her free spirit is currently sleeping curled up on
    my down comforter.  As for her crying to go out, I'd say it was
    the opposite...when she found me, she cried to come in and has been
    inside ever since.
    
    Sometimes I wonder if she misses going out, but after reading Kim's
    note, I'm glad she's safe on my bed.  She's adapted beautifully.
    
    Mary

                      
    All but one of the cats I had as a child died under the wheels of
    automobiles.  My mother was one of those who believed that cats didn't
    belong in a house under any circumstances.  The lone exception was a
    kitten of my sister's who died after ingesting some rat poison that a
    neighbor had booby-trapped her garbage with.  Ever since I've had a
    place of my own, my cats have all been indoor-only, and have all been
    happy, healthy and scar-free.  I'd never have it any other way. 
    

After reading ALL of the 76 replies, I STILL feel comfortable with 
letting Smokie outdoors when he wants to go out.  Smokie goes out alot 
in the summertime, but come winter he HATES the cold and only stays 
out for a short time.

I did try at one time to keep him indoors, but that lasted a week and 
I couldn't take it any more!!!  His whole personality changed - he was 
nasty, wouldn't eat, wouldn't jump on my lap and watch TV with me 
(like he used to), wouldn't sleep with me (like he used to), etc....
He was back to his normal HAPPY fun loving self once he was able to go 
out.  I should mention that Smokie was 8 when I tried this - he's 
10 1/2 now.

My Mom drives by my house on her way to work and told me how she saw 
Smokie attempting to cross the street and noticed he looked both ways 
before doing so.  He also goes over my next door neighbor's yard who 
adores him too!!

/Karen

    RE: 0.77
    
    Karen - 
    
    Its nice to know that their are other who feel as I do (although
    I think we are a minority here).  Nippa does quite well outside,
    and I swear she looks before crossing too!  When I kept her in a
    month ago, her personality changed also, and it got worse as time
    went on.  She's much happier going out.  
    
    Michele & Nippa
    
    p.s.
    
    When ever I go away for a weekend, when I let her up stairs, the
    first thing she does is yell at me for keeping her in, and then
    she takes off for 24 hours or so (unless it's real cold, then she
    comes in after a few hours).
    
    

    Re: -.1, -.2
    
    I am going through them same situation now.   I find that Puma
    behaves exactly as described in -.1 and -.2.  I have to keep in 
    because he had is to undergo surgery for neutering because he 
    was a monorchid.

    What is a monorchid?
    
    Edd

    Edd,
    
    A monorchid is one who's called "One hung low" -- ancient Chinese joke.  
    ;-)
    
    It simply means that only one of his balls has descended.  The other is
    up in the body, and this disqualifies a cat (or dog) from the show
    ring.
    
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

    It only disqualifies him from Championship competition in a cat
    show, and of course, since this is a hereditary condition, the cat
    should be neutered and not used for breeding.  Once the cat is
    neutered, he can be shown in Premiership class and still work towards
    the titles of Premier (equivalent of Champion) and Grand Premier
    (equivalent of Grand Champion).
    
    Jo

    re: 82  Right on!  
    
    Also, it does not disqualify him from showing Championship class
    in CFF as an Alter  or  if the cat were a household pet, the
    cat could be shown as an HHP as a kitten, then altered and
    shown as an adult.
    
    Sometimes, when only one testicle descends, and the other is
    in the abdoman, the surgery can be tricky.  Every now and
    then you will get lucky, when the surgeon can pop the  
    undescended testicle down for removal - a lot easier than
    digging around for it. 

    I stand corrected.  My info came from an old conversation with the
    woman who bred my dog Aisha.  Whether they're disqualified or not, 
    since they're not cosidered breedable, why would you show him?  This 
    is not meant to be sarcastic or anything, I'm rather naive about cat 
    shows.  I thought the big point in showing was to find the best 
    breeding stock?
    
    Learn something new every day,
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

    You would show him anyway because he is (assuming here) a fine example
    of his breed and because showing is FUN!!!
    
    Also, in cats, the parents can receive titles for siring Grand Champion
    offspring.  It a female cat produces 5 Grands, she receives the
    title of Distinguished Merit.  For a male, it is 15 Grand offspring
    to recieve the Distinguished Merit title.  The grands can be either
    premiers or champions, so showing him could help his parents achieve
    an even higher award.  This would be a big plus for the breeder
    since that would make her stock more sought after.
    
    I have a very nice boy in Joui's litter who will be neutered and
    shown in Premiership.  I don't think he will have any problem Granding.
    Since his mother already has one grand to her name, this will help
    her out.  Two of his female littermates will also be sold for showing.
    Both are of very good quality and should be able to grand.  That
    would give Joui four grands to her name and she would only need
    one more to recieve the title.  To the best of my knowledge, no
    Birman has ever been awarded a Distinguished Merit title.  I would
    love to have Joui be the first.
    
    Jo

    Thanks Jo, that makes sense.  Cat showing is a lot more complicated
    than dog showing.
    
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

    Am I correct in saying that in showing dogs, there is no Alter Class?
    Maybe that's why ....
    
    Folks can only show whole animals
    
    
    E.T.

    Yes, in dog shows there is no alter class.  Any AKC conformation show
    is for "whole" dogs only.  You can still show them in AKC sponsored
    opedience or field trials, but conformation is out.  Kind of a bummer,
    since I thought it might be fun to show Aisha, but she's a spayed
    companion, so we can't find out how she "stacks up".
    
    Guess the AKC could learn a thing or two from the cat fancy.  I think
    it's a great idea to allow them to get titled, and the extra title 
    for the parent animals is a terrific idea.  They have somewhat similar
    ideas such as "Top Producer", but it only takes into consideration
    whole, conformation - titled dogs.
    
    Sigh,
    Karen et al.

    
    This has nothing to do with the base note, but it seems appropriate in
    the context of the last two replies . . .
    
    One cat show cat(heh)egory that I thought was wonderful was the
    'Supercat' class, which consisted only of shelter cats (at least that's
    how I understood it).  I believe this was in the Boston show last year?
    
    We adopted our Smudge from the Goffstown Animal Rescue League, and on
    her papers is listed the reason for her being there - 'unwanted litter'
    <sigh>
    
    I think it's great for cats like this to get some recognition!
    
    Sandy
    

    re: .89   I have that competition on video tape!  It was at the
    INCATS show at Boston Garden last year and my favorite competitor
    was Long John Silver a large black, three legged SUPERCAT!  And
    you know what else?  The owners of the supercats were very happy
    to let you pat the kitties too!
      N

    Just a side note off of Nancy's reply.
    
    When at a cat show, there is a reason that none of the exhibitors
    like the spectators to touch their cats.  Touching can spread cat
    illnesses.  Sometimes a cat can be harboring some type of virus
    but not be showing signs of illness yet.  If a spectator was to
    touch that cat, and then go and touch another, the spectator could
    unknowingly cause the second cat to become ill.
    
    This is the reason that the judges all was their hands and their
    judging tables with disinfectant between each cat.
    
    Ken and I used to let everyone touch our cats at shows until we came
    back from a show and  had an upper respiratory go through our
    cattery.  Now, we take disinfectant with us to the shows and let all 
    prospective touchers wash their hands before and after touching our cats.
                               
    So, when you are at a show, please refrain from touching any of
    the cats, unless you have the explicit permission of the owner.
    
    Jo

    What a great idea Jo!   What kind of disinfectant do you use?
    I would love to let folks pat the cats if they want, but I sure
    don't want them to get sick.
      Nancy DC
    

    I use Novalsan.  Dilute according to the instructions on the bottle.
    You can also use Roccal-D.  I bought a special "show size" spray
    bottle that will fit in our show bag, and we refill it whenever
    it is necessary.  Be sure to bring paper towels along too.
    
    Jo

    	<Changing the topic so I can let off some steam>
    
    
    Before I start this reply, I want to apologise if I offend anyone.
    My purpose is not to anger anyone, but I do have to express my feelings
    on the subject of indoor/outdoor cats. So without further
    disclaimers/apologies...............................
    
    
    	If one does allow their cats to go outside, I hope they have
    the brains to insure the animal is neutered/fixed and given all
    their shots....
    
    
    	About a year ago my wife and I worked daily to gain the trust
    of a litter of baby cats that were born in the wild...... We were
    successful in catching all the kittens (Over a period of time) and
    taming them to the point of enjoying human contact.... But then
    came the point of finding homes for these animals.....We ended up
    bringing the cats to "Kitty Angels" because noone wanted them. And
    you can understand why too, to some degree. The kittens were wild.
    They had never known human contact. Even with all the work we did
    with them they were skiddish to others that looked at them. Most
    people do not have the time that is needed to gain the confidence
    of such animals..................
    
    	Then again in the spring outside our door appeared another litter
    of kittens. The mother obviously knew that we would feed them. We
    slowly gained the confidence of these kittens and brought them in
    the house... The were beutiful kittens... But noone showed interest
    in kittens that were born in the wild... (We could have passed them
    of as a litter that was born under roof, but I rather be completely
    open so that the future owner knows the kitten needs a lot of love..)
    
    	About two months ago my wife went into a barn and saw a small
    animal. She came home and told me about it....Stating she thought
    it was a kitten.. I went over to the barn and saw two tiny baby
    kittens sleeping in a canoe. I grabbed them and brought them home.
    They were malnurished and dehydrated. We now have two of the best
    pets one could ask for...They are lovable and perfect pets. 
    
    	The about three weeks ago, Mom (The mother that brought her
    original litter to our door) walked up to the door. She was
    malnutritioned, and severley dehydrated. You could see that from
    far away. I started feeding her. Two days went by...... We looked
    outside and there was mom..... Behind her were four babies. So....
    Once again we start the cycle. We feed them morning and night. I
    work with them daily to gain there confidence. I have gotten to
    the point of patting each one. Slowly I will have five more (Four
    babies and one mom) cat/kittens in the house. Two days ago I reached
    down and picked up one beutiful scared kitten. We took him in and
    gave him a bath... He actually loved it.. He sat there while I
    shampooed him, staring into my eyes. He is so peaceful. Instead of
    crying and scratching, he allowed me to pick him up and cut all of
    his claws without moving. So we now (My wife fell in love immediately)
    have a new pet. The other three will soon be caught and taken to
    the vets for their shots. Then Hopefully I will hear from someone
    that has a caring soul and a lot of extra love inside of them.
    
    	My neighbor called the other day.... She has seen in the back
    of her yard a litter of kittens...She is unsure what to do....You
    know, I am also unsure. It does not make sense............ Not one
    dam bit of it. And I must say I am furious with those that allow
    their animals loose. IN MY EYES it is pure negligence and human
    ignorance to allow this kind of thing happen. What I want to do
    now is catch these nieghbors cats. I then want to bring them to
    the vets and get them fixed/neutered. I wish to hell there was some
    kind of law I could fall back on to deal with each of these people
    that so little care about their cats. I wish I could make these
    people see what they are doing. They obviously do not even know
    that their cats are out there forced to fend for themselves. (Or
    at least I hope they are ignorant of the fact). I want to educate
    them, but do not know how. I wish they could see each of these kittens
    we have found and raised. I wish they knew how many did not make
    it. 
    
    	So to those that do allow their animals out, Please, PLEASE
    take care that they are cared for. Please insure they are not left
    out there to fend for themselves. And please try to be responsible
    for the consequences of your actions.
    
    
    	

    
    For someone letting off steam, you do it very calmly.
    
    I don't think this is just an indoor/outdoor issue.  To me, what I read
    in your note was pure neglect and abuse.......plain and simple. 
    Someone either dumped this poor momma kitty and/or the litter of
    kittens, or threw them out to fend for themselves.
    
    Thank you for being a caring person.  Your love of cats came through
    your note clearly.
    
    Maybe the people in this file can help somehow.
    
    Faith
    

    re: .95   Faith says it very well.  I agree.
    

	Nope, this is definately a case of indoor/outdoor cats. The
    cats are neighbors animals. We know for a fact that they are pets
    and the houses they come from.(Please noone suggest I talk to them
    about their responsibilities- It won't work)
    
    	As for letting off steam, I have found in the past to hold my
    tongue is sometimes best. This is one such issue I really have to restrain
    myself rather than offend others. 
    
    	I Would like to ask a few questions if I can.........
         ****If this does not belong here let me know*****
    
    1) Does anyone know how one can get a hold of a have-a-heart trap
    that I can borrow to catch the adult cats? Does the local Humane
    societies have them? Suggestions??????
    
    2) Is there anyone out there that would like to take in a kitten?
    	A) Aprox. 9-12 weeks old
    		1) Black with little spots of white on feet, and chin.
    		2) Black with a bit more white
    		3) Black with lots of white.
    **With a lot of love they are going to be great pets... We have
    three so far of our own that were wild, and (Yeah we kept the first
    of this present litter too) I do not think we could ask for better
    pets.
                         Curt
    

    
    Yes, I can see the indoor/outdoor issue also.  My two cats are
    indoor/outdoor kitties.  Yet, anyone who has outdoor cats that don't
    properly take care of them is neglecting them.  An outdoor cat can be
    well fed, clean, healthy and happy if the owner takes care of them and
    doesn't abuse them.
    
    To let a pet go hungry is abuse....whether the cat be indoor or
    outdoor.
    
    You do a very good job of holding your tongue and restraining yourself.
    
    Unfortunately, as much as I would love to help with the kitties, my
    husband has threatened me with a big red sign on the front lawn
    advertising "Faith's Cat House" if I bring one more cat home.  If I
    hear of anyone looking for a kitten, I'll definitely direct them to
    you.
    
    Thank you for being so caring.
    Faith
    

    
    
    
    
                             sigh

    Curt, if your neighbors are allowing their animals to breed at random
    and fend for themselves then they are guilty of neglect, period.
    You have grounds to call in the authorities and I would do just
    that or else you will continue to find litter upon litter of kittens
    in your yard.
    
    As far as catching wild kittens is concerned, I have had good luck
    feeding them in a cat carrier and closing the door behind them.
    After a few times of getting them used to eating in the carrier,
    you can sneak up to it, gently tip it on it's side (to prevent
    immediate escape), and close the door behind them.  It worked for
    me last year when I had to catch 4 very feral, fiesty little kittens
    from our back woods.
    
    Good luck.  People like your neighbors really make me sick.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    
    
    Curt-
    
    I know exactly how you feel, I know people who let their pets
    fend for themselves and sometimes it's like talking to a brick wall.
    
    I also agree w/ Faith, that this is not an indoor/outdoor argument,
    but abuse and neglect.  My cat goes outside (although the next one is
    going to be indoor only) and I know others who let their cats outside -
    they are fixed, fed and cared for...no more or no less than someone
    who keeps thei cats inside all the time.  Because they are left outside
    makes it seem like it is the indoors/outdoors argument, but if the cat
    was inside and was being neglected, you probably wouldn't know about
    it.
    
    I wish I could do something for every neglected animal on the face of
    this earth, but it just isn't possible.
    
    Your doing a good thing, trying to catch the kittens....be paitent, 
    they'll come to you.  Try the add in Classifieds and the Want-Ad if
    your not having much luck.  I also know you can rent hav-a-hart traps
    from taylor rental ($7/day??).
    
    I posted the number for FOA and KH low cost spays and Nancy DC has
    some copies of the applications.  Maybe you can give those to the
    people who adopt the kittens as an incentive (I usually try to
    and people are grateful they don't have to invest $80-$100 at the
    vets for fixin' )
    
    Breeders:
    
    If someone wants to adopt out stray kittens/kittens from unwanted,
    unplanned litters, is it possible to have a spay/neuter agreement
    to go along with it.....or does this only work with purebreds and
    the threat of holding back the registration and stuff.
    
    
    
    Michele & Nippa
    

    I have placed several stray waifs, and I always give the new owner
    a spay/neuter contract.  You really have to screen the new owners
    though, cause there isn't much you can do if they decide they don't
    want to follow through with the contract.  So, screen the new owners
    and if you trust them, then have them sign the contract (it shows
    that you are really serious about the spay/neuter issue).  I also
    check in with the new owners when the cats are about 9 months to
    find out if the cat has been fixed, and if not, talk to them about
    why they really should take care of that right away.
    
    Jo

    We have friends who had their cats "broken".  They didn't
    think they should call it "fixed" since the vet kept something
    from working.  So they're not fixed, they're broken.
    
      :-)  
    Nancy DC

    	I know this may not belong here, since it varies from the point
    of the issue at hand.......but............................
    
    Thanks all for the advise. It is great knowing there are so many
    people out there that really do care. Your advise and support is
    greatly appreciated.
    
    And a special thank you to Nancy for her heart of gold. 
    
    curt
    

    re: .104
      Gee...I wonder if I could use that as collateral for my next
    mortgage......   :-) (blush blush)
    

    Alliance for Animals puts out a list of the risks associated with
    being an indoor vs outdoor cat.  What I found very interesting was
    the risks associated with being an indoor cat.  I don't think us
    indoor-cat people stop to think all that much about the risks in
    the house because to us its a safe haven.
    
      Alliance for Animals is obviously promoting keeping your cat indoors,
    and I don't intend to start another battle over the indoor/outdoor
    issue, I'm just posting this for informational purposes.
    
    RISKS TO THE OUTDOOR CAT  -
    1. Hit by car, injury or death
    2. Lost - Heartbreak for owner, fate of cat unknown.
    3. Stolen -
      Kept by another person OR:
     * sold to animal dealers who sell to laboratories for experiments
     * Used as sacrifice by satanic cults
     * Object of acts of cruelty - hanged, set on fire, etc
    4. Catch infectious diseases
     * Feline Leukemia
     * Feline Infectious Peritonitis
     * Feline Distemper and Upper Respiratory Diseases
    5. Pick up parasites - fleas, ticks, earmites, worms, toxoplasmosis
    6. Dogfights & Catfights - Injuries, death
    7. Up a tree - in most towns firefighters no long come to the rescue
    8. Contributes to crisis of overpopulation
        An unneutered outdoor animal can have litters of outdoor kittens
    9. Trapped - in basements, garages, steel-jaw traps
    10. Poisoned by toxic substances - eat antifreeze, etc.
    
    RISKS TO INDOOR CAT
    1. Fall out windows or off balconies
       * secure window screens
       * Do not let cats go on balconies unaccompanied
    2. Boredom
       * Get good cat toys
       * Get a companion cat for your cat
    3. Poisoned by toxic substances
       * Keep all medicines well sealed andd out of reach of your cat(s)
    
    And I'd have to add:
    4. Electrocution - from chewing on power cords, or christmas tree
       lights

    I heard on the radio last week that there had been a series of several
    cats disappeared in western Massachusetts.  The reason was determined
    to be the return of eagles to the area.  Cats sunning themselves are
    easy prey.
    
    I've been trying to determine whether this report was mentioned in
    the notes file but couldn't find one.
    
    Calvin, Hobbes, visitors, and ed

    To add to the list:
    
    At the advice of our vet our previously indoor cat has become and
    indoor/outdoor.  She is terribly allergic to the finishing chemicals
    used in making carpets stain resistent.  Her disposition has improved
    greatly now that can sit on the bench on the front porch and "guard" 
    the house.
    

    I wonder if anyone'll actually see this....It's been so long since
    anyone wrote in this topic.
    
    I got Tabitha a harness & a lead yesterday & took her outside for 
    the first time since she was a baby kitten. She seemed kind of afraid,
    like she missed the house. It could have been that it was really cold
    out, so I'll try again on a warmer day. If I notice her little heart
    pounding a mile a minute again, should I just stick to keeping her an
    indoor only cat? I thought she'd like to go out, since she's so
    currious & always looking out the windows. Maybe that's enough for her.
    
    She DID however have a sniffing fest out there, so I know she WAS 
    interested, even if it was a little bit, she was interested!
    
    Whadda ya think?
    Bon
    
    PS--->Once last year, (when she was a baby) she ran out onto the ledge
    of our 3rd floor apratment, & was totally unphased by it...I can't
    believe she'd be such a wus about going outside!

    Bon, first of all, anyone who reads notes using the "next unseen"
    feature will see your reply!!
    
    Secondly, I know I have wrote this in here before but it is worth
    repeating:  If you do not plan to keep up with the walks, then don't
    leash train Tabitha.  I leash trained Kelsey when he was about 8 to 9
    months old.  He loved the outside from the minute he got out the door
    and hasn't stopped loving it since.  He EXPECTS his walks and spends a
    great deal of time crying at the door to go for one.  Even in the
    coldest of weather this foolish cat needs his "outdoor fix."  Since I
    will not take him outside after dark (and it is dark when we get home
    from work in the winter), I have to spend A LOT of time listening to
    him whine and cry.
    
    I say, if Tabitha is acting afraid of the outdoors quit now while you
    are ahead!  Once they get that taste... forget about your freedom for
    the entire spring and summer!  Murdock is also leash trained but he can
    take it or leave it.  If he sees Kelsey outside then he wants to go
    too, but when stuck indoors, he never ever cries to go out, and when
    he's out on his lead he usually just hangs out on the deck or under a
    tree and chases bugs.  Kelsey wants to be everywhere at once!
    
    --Roberta
    

    Yes, Roberta, I did see what you wrote about, once-ya-take-`em-out-
    you're stuck-with-it. I told Dave this too, when you start doing it,
    you have to keep on doing it, or it's really kind of mean if you don't.
    
    I have no problem w/ that, since I'm an outdoors person anyway. I
    just wish she'd like to go out more! When I come in the door, she 
    runs right out into the downstairs hallway & acts like she's making
    the great escape. She *LOVES* to be chased, so that may be what she
    wants, (instead of going outside???) I dunno!
    
    Now....as far as leash training, what's the "proper"way of doing this?
    I noticed that she HATES the harness, & stays close to the ground when
    it's on her. I just leave a whole lotta slack on it & let her do what
    she wants, rather than lead her around by it. After all, cats are
    pretty independant & really go wherever they want. Am I doing somehing
    wrong here? She's not a show cat or anything, but I'd like to know if
    I'm doing anything wrong, or if theres something I should be doing to
    make this easy. (if it's at all possible that this *CAN* be easy!)
    
    BTW--->I'd hoped that someone would see this by using next unseen,
    & you did! Thanks Roberta!
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie,
    
    I tried Kelsey on a harness and he didn't do too well.  He immediately
    took to the collar and leash.  I started out by taking him for walks
    around the yard and he sort of slithered along the ground like a snake,
    meowing his delight and looking wide-eyed at the birds, etc.  Once he
    got used to this, he began walking like a normal cat, then progressed
    to running, venturing too far out onto the common grounds (we live in a
    townhouse complex and I would continually have to pick him up and haul
    him back to our boundaries.  Finally, I got fed up with this effort and
    bought some heavy rope and tied it to one of the deck posts.  I made it
    long enough so he has lots of room to venture around but can't get into
    other people's yards and bother them.  I sit out with him and he has
    learned what his limits are and (kind of) accepts them.  I know he
    would like to go farther but I don't have the patience to just hold the
    leash and let him go... because go he will.  I just hook the leash onto
    the rope and he is happy.  I read a book and sort of follow him around to
    ensure he doesn't tangle up since we have lots of bushes and stuff for
    him to weave in and out of.
    
    It is really up to you as to whether or not you want to continue with
    Tabitha and see if time will help her to enjoy the outdoors or let her
    live the life of an indoor cat.... which is fine with me!!  I should
    have left well enough alone with Kelsey.
    
    --Roberta
    
    

        PS--->Once last year, (when she was a baby) she ran out onto the
        ledge
        of our 3rd floor apratment, & was totally unphased by it...
    
    A lot of cats have accidents by falling from high ledges.
    Probably you know this, I'm just being over cautious.
    As for outdoors, if she's happy indoors, why push it?
    Odds are she will live a longer life inside.
    

I don't know about where you live, but I decided against leash training when
I discovered that there were ALWAYS dogs running loose when the weather was
nice enough to take a cat for a walk....ergo, there was no way the cat could
be safe.

Be very cautious about this.  Even the most loving cat can really injure you
badly when terrified and a dog that is trying to get to your cat can crawl up
your body very quickly.  You and your cat can suffer real injury, and your
cat can get away in this situation.  Unless you know the neighborhood is safe
from dogs, don't take your cat out.

Alternate suggestion:  a screened in area in your back yard or on your
patio - the cat can get fresh air and see butterflies and you can sit outside
and take in the nice weather - with no dogs or feral cats attacking you or
your pet.