Conference misery::feline_v1

    Well, it makes the terminology clearer, but not the cat-show rules
    - if a cat has an obvious disqualification, or at least one that's
    obvious once it's been pointed out, how can it retain any awards?
    Or do they not disqualify winners once the award has been given?
    
    I suppose it would be unseemly for a crowd of spectators to gather
    around and scream "Kill the judge! She must be blind! Look at the
    eggshell-colored toe on that cat's foot!" But if there are standards
    and the judges miss or ignore them, something seems to be amiss...
    
    -b

    RE .0:
    
    could it have been a more "lenient" assosiation than you're used to?

    like, would TICA maybe allow some qualities that CFF or CFA may not?

    For the most part, a disqualification is a disqualification regardless
    of association.  For some associations, the "standard" may be more
    lenient, therefore possibly allowing something that another association
    may not.  
    
    I think that the case may be that the "disqualification" item was
    not seen by the judge....sometimes a little colored powder can darken
    a white toe, for example!!!   
    
    As far as losing all of it's awards, a cat must be disqualified
    by 3 different judges for the same "fault" before it will lose any
    of its awards.  I know this is the case with CFF, and I believe
    CFA, I'm not sure of the other associations.
    
    

    Threee times is basically it. 
    
    Judges are also more leinent with kittens and alters than with whole
    cats.
    
    Remember, the standards are set, but as always, subject to human
    interpretation.  Judges are human too.  Also, as in Nikki's case,
    her locket was very, very hard to see. (we went 4 months arguing
    if it was cream or white). 
    
    But, on the other hand, you can always find examples of favoritism.
    I had one judge call a particukar maine before (and separate from
    the others), take the cat, rush to his friend in the auidence, and
    announce "This is (name deleted). He's going to be the best cat
    this year". (He came in second, BTW).  (MY maine boy also handed
    him his first defeat in a show ring as an adult.)
    
    

    Gee, speaking of disqualification - do you know how to improve kitty
    breath??  The youngest, Timothy, of "my five" is going to his first
    show 11/9 - he nibbles frequently and almost always smells of IAMS!
    Guess one way would be to limit his food - but do people use anything
    (like kitty mouthwash) to improve mouth odor??  I hate to limit
    his feed - he weighs 14 1/2 lbs. now and is just 12 months - wonder
    what he will weigh in at when he's 2 !!! 
    
                           E. T.

re: 352.5

Well, I've never seen a cat disqualified or w/w'ed over IAMS-breath, and 
I'm pretty sure I've never read it in any standards...(but you never know 
why the judge is frowning... 8^)  (^8  )

What breed *is* this guy?  14 1/2 pounds would be considered overweight for 
many breeds.  Got any mountain lion in him?

Ray_whose_12-month-old_male_weighs_11_pounds

    re: .4
    	I'll have to say that Iams breath is a WHOLE lot nicer than
    meat breath!!!  It kind of smells like malt.  Besides that the only
    time I ever saw a judge get his/her face close enough to a cat's
    mouth to even be able to smell the breath was when Leta Williams
    (CFA judge) brought a kitty up to her face, and the little guy licked
    her nose!  She and the audience loved it, and no comments on breah
    at all.... :^)
    
    As far as the 14 1/2 pounds goes, I hope you have a Maine Coon,
    or a Rag Doll, or something, 'cause that's a BIG boy!  I realize
    that Iams does that, though.  Cin, how big did you say Fire is since
    he been on his Iams routine????  It sure is a great food for putting
    on weight!
    
    Molly

    If it's a Maine coon, he's still a tad underweight.  Crunch, my
    male, now weighs in around 20 pounds.  The standard for maine coons
    actually calls for "medium sized cat", but I have yet to see a medium
    size male do anything in the ring.
    
    By comparison, in the kitten rings (I show lots of kittens) my maine
    coon kittens are often triple the size of the siamese/abby types
    (and occassionally larger)
    
    dave

    Fire is on Science Diet, not Iams, he won't touch the stuff, but
    that "type" of dry cat food does make em big.  Fire right now is
    going around 19 lbs.  He's a big boy, but still doesn't look overweight.  
    
    One word or warning, the cat should not look FAT.  Judges don't
    usually like fat cats.  A cat that is heavy but still feels solid
    is okay.  


                                                                           

    re: 352.6,7,8
    
    Thanks - glad to know that the judge won't get that close - Timothy
    has this funny habit of bitting your nose if it's too close and
    he wants down!
    
    Timi, the youngest at 14 1/2 lbs. - half siamese and ????
          very long body, very long legs, VERY long tail!
          sleek, black short hair! big yellow eyes and HUGE feet!
    
    Alexander - 2 yrs. 17 lbs - half siamese and ????
             long body, long legs, long STRONG tail
             sleek, black, short hair, big yellow eyes.
    
    Nicholas - 3 yrs. 12 lbs - Nikki is a cat - short legs, short tail
               short black hair (a little on the rough side except for
               his belly fur, which is very soft!  He's the lover of
               the three boys.
    
    KoKo - 5 yrs seal point with a little himi - 10 lbs. short legs,wide
           spaced eyes, long body, longish hair - both parents were
           S.P. - don't know where she came from....
    Sasha  7 yrs   8 lbs. a little bit of a thing!  but a real lady
                                               and queen of the roost!
    
    That's "my five" - quite a crew!
    
    Pleae keep the show info rolling in - I've learned a bunch 
    since I discovered this file - you all sure sound like you
    have much experience - am looking forward to the 9th in
    R. I. and the 15th & 16th in Braintree - by the by, the
    show location (Braintree) was somewhere else other than
    Braintree and was changed - check your list for the
    show on Nov. 15 & 16 - I don't have the list yet so
    I can't say where the old location is. Sorry... 
    
                   E. T.
                          

    Gee, wonder if they will get even bigger on the IAMS, hmmmm.  Timi
    looks lean & mean, but Alexander , well, he looks well fed!  The
    Vet did mention that last week. Actually, I thought that Alex
    had trimmed down since being on IAMS - will have to watch him
    for the next few weeks and maybe switch to S.D. The 20 lbs 
    bag for the 5 of them lasts for 5 to 6 weeks.  anyone know
    if that's good or what??  I feed about 6 oz. of wet mixed
    with dry in the morning (boy, they do like their wet
    breakfast!) and they can crunch forever when that one
    bowl of mixed is gone.

    I am sending out this question to  all you persian breeders and
    maybe even the maine coon breeders.
    
    I have a household pet that I show that looks like a Maine Coon
    with a Persian coat.  Lately I have been having trouble keeping
    his ruff looking good.  He is on a diet of C/D because of FUS.
    The C/D is very oily and it coats his tongue and then he grooms
    himself and looks terrible.  
    
    I have been using grooming powder on him at the shows to try and
    keep his fur from seperating and even tried putting a coffee filter
    around his neck.  The coffee filter became soiled and so did the
    fur underneath it.
    
    I may have to resort to not feeding him at the shows until all rings
    are finished.  Do any of you use a grease cutting shampoo on your
    cats?  I usually bathe with flea shampoo and then Bright White.
    He is a shaded silver.  (Or is he a ticked silver tabby?  that is
    another question)
    
    JoAnn
    

    JoAnn,
    
    I have a problem with Fire being very greasy...I sometimes use a
    waterless hand cleaner (i.e. D&L, Goop, etc.) that you can buy in
    an Auto store.  I apply the goop before I wet the cat, work it into
    the coat the best you can, and then rinse.  Then, I'ld use Dawn
    Dishwashing liquid.  I've tried other dishwashing stuff, and none
    of them work like the Dawn.  That would be done before the regular
    bathing routine.  
    
    Be very cautious with the hand cleaner because if you get it in
    the eyes it really stings.  
    
    This really works great for "Stud Tail" which is quite common in
    both breeding males and females.
    
    As for at the shows or after the bath, you may want to try Bitter
    Apple, this sometimes works.  Also, at the shows I was able to buy
    cat bibs with plastic on the back side so even if they get wet or
    soiled the cats fur will still stay clean.  Their made of pretty
    fabric so when they get soiled it doesn't show up as bad either.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    I've found that Ajax dishwashing soap the best for degreasing my
    beasties.  Fortunately, my Maines don't tend towards greasiness.
    
    At shows you might try using Sprite to clear spots of fur. I know
    it sounds weird, but it does work. It's great for cleaning tear
    marks too.
    (Originally suggested to me by a Scottish fold breeder)
    
    Dave

    Hmmm, the Sprite idea sounds wild, I'll have to try it on my white
    persian kitten!!
    
    I'll try the Ajax next time I shop for dishwashing liquid too....always
    willing to give something new a try!!
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    I've got the opposite problem with my two, Nordic Nutmeg and 
    Nordic Tag-Along (*guess* which one suddenly got thrown with her
    sister...):  their fur is definitely on the dry side.  We gave them
    baths (first time I ever did that, and they were more confused and
    mournful than agitated, thank goodness), and they look better, but
    still don't feel as silky smooth as the older two cats.  The vet
    has them on a nutrient supplement.  But is there any kind of shampoo
    or soda or spaghetti sauce (or whatever your little tricks include)
    for "bleached, permed, or dry" fur?  Or a cream rinse???
    
    Thanks!
    
    Penelope

    Penelope,
    
    I might be able to help you with this one.  When we first got our
    previously mentioned greasy cat, he had no hair at all because of
    flea allergy.  When the fur started growing in it was very dry.
    I started adding Linatone for cats to his food.  The amount given
    depends on the weight of the cat.  I used to be able to find this
    stuff at pet shops, drug stores, grocery stores, etc. but it is
    becoming more difficult to find nowadays.  Most retailers are carrying
    the Linatone for dogs only now and saying its okay for cats too.
    It may be okay for cats but the other product was terrific for cats.
    The dog version does not contain the same amount of Linoleic Acid
    as the cat version.
    
    The are other supplements on the market that contain this substance.
    I am currently using one that is labeled as containing Cod Liver
    Oil.  All the cats get it in there food now as it helps keep their
    coats shiney too.  The also love the taste of this new stuff and
    gobble down their dinners.  It does make them have fish breath though.
    Hope this helps.
    
    JoAnn

    Penelope,
    
    You should be able to get the Linatone for Cats from Haddleigh House
    booth at the Cat Show this weekend.  I know she carries it and if
    you'ld like me to make sure for you, I'll call Martha Kruger (Haddleigh
    House owner) and be sure she brings one down and saves it for you.
    
    I'm not sure how fast she sells out of the stuff.  It is really
    good stuff.
    
    cin
    

    two other suggestions.
    
    Mira-coat, a dry supplement especially for cats with problem coats.
    or  a creme rinse, the name of which I'll add when I get home.
    (The rinse is all-natural/herbal and smells and looks great)
    

    I have a question about TICA.  Is it necessary to register your
    cattery name and a membership?  Can you register a cat without
    registering your cattery name?  What is the benefit of becoming
    a member?  Any info will be appreciated.
    
    JoAnn

    I don't know a whole lot about TICA, but you can register a cat
    without registering your cattery name.  To register an individual
    cat you have to write out a 3 generation pedigree on a TICA form.
    You may be able to send a copy of a pedigree, I'm not sure, you'ld
    have to check with them.  
    
    I haven't been heavily involved with TICA, so I don't know of any
    benefits to becoming a member, except that you'ld probably get to
    vote on proposals for rule changes and things like that.  
    
    I think you have to pay to have your TICA points scored with the
    association for Titles or Awards scoring.  Dave, am I right about
    this?  I think the price was something like $3 per show...
    
    When you show a cat in TICA a judge does not get information as
    to the Title of the cat.  ie A judge should not know if a cat is
    a novice or a supreme grand champion....  
    
    Cats Magazine All-American points are scored if the TICA show is
    AA scored.  Not all TICA shows are AA scored!!  The cat does not
    have to be TICA registered to be shown.  The cat does not have to
    be TICA registered for All-American points to be scored.  
    
    For example:  
    
    When I was showing Fire, I showed him in a couple of TICA shows,
    but did not choose to register him.  The shows were All-American
    scored so the AA points that Fire scored counted towards All-American,
    but not towards TICA Nationals.  
    
    I had my own personal reasons for not wanting to register Fire in
    TICA.  
    
    
    Those are some of the things I know about TICA....I think Dave may
    be able to provide more information....
    
    Purrs
    cin
    

    As a footnote to the previous discussion on Linatone and other food
    supplements:
    
    I took my three mixed breeds to an all household pet show and the
    judges all commented on how wonderful the cat's coats felt!  The
    stuff really works miracles so please try it.  BTW- Monroe came
    out 6th Best of the Best!
    
    JoAnn

    Thanks for all the helpful advice several of you offered in NOTES
    and via DTN.  I purchased some Linatone and something called
    Prodean at the Dorchester show last week.
    
    Meanwhile, with the extra nutrient diet, Tag is looking ever so
    much better.  But Nutmeg (who has the more silvery coat, so I'd
    especially like to get her plush and silky) still looks a bit dry
    and scruffy.  [By the way, *I* can call my cat(s) "scruffy," but
    don't any of *you* dare!  :^) ]
    
    I'll let you know if there is any noticeable improvement.
    
    	Penelope

    What do you other breeders think is the right age to breed a female
    the first time.  It is the opinion of another breeder that 1 year
    is much too young for a first time breeding.  I think it would have
    to depend on the cat in question.  It seems detrimental to the health
    of a female to let her continually go through heat without being
    bred. (I do know about the methods of bringing a cat out of heat)     
    This other breeder is the owner of a stud that I would like to breed
    to eventually, but she said she doesn't accept any females under
    two years of age for breeding because the risk of stillborn litters
    is greater with the younger queens.
    
    Any opinion?
    
    JoAnn

    JoAnn,
    
    I think the right age to breed the female depends on the cat herself.
    My personal opinion is that usually after the 2nd heat is fine.
    I think that the female should be at least a year old when she delivers
    the kittens, so would not breed a female less than 10 months old.
    I have found that the cats I have bred younger make better mothers
    than the ones that I hold off.  Don't know why, but that's just
    been the way it is with mine.  
    
    I'm interested in seeing others opinions on this subject.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    I also have another question for you.
    
    This weekend at the SF shows a fellow Birman breeder had two
    breeder show kittens for sale.  They were both males, a bluepoint
    and a sealpoint.  The bluepoint male was particularly nice and I
    had decided to come up with the money to buy him as soon as I could.
    Before too long, a woman arrived at the show to drop off her cat
    to this breeder for breeding this week.  She took one look at the
    bluepoint and decided to purchase him herself.  She told the breeder
    that she would be by later that evening with a check in the full
    amount for the kitten.  I was really disappointed.  I am not quite
    as "liquid" as this other woman and could not have come up with
    the money on such short notice.  Especially since I just purchased
    a kitten a few weeks ago!
    
    Well...After the initial disappointment went away, I came up with
    several very good reasons why I shouldn't purchase a male right
    now.  I had myself convinced that it was better that I didn't buy
    him.  Then last night, the breeder called and said that the other
    woman hasn't given her any deposit on the kitten and if I still
    want him then she will accept $100 deposit and keep him at her cattery
    until he is payed off.  She would accept payments on him.
    
    Now what do I do?  I'm afraid I am guilty of letting my heart rule
    my head, as the kitten was not only a good example of the breed
    but was EXTREMELY affectionate.  I am feeling a little pressure
    from the breeder, I think she would rather sell to me than the other
    woman because I will show the kitten and the other woman will not.
    
    My female is only four months old.  This male is four and a half
    months old.  It is my intention to use him for breeding.  How many
    females would you suggest I have before getting a male?  Am I right
    in thinking it is too early for me to get a male?  Talk me out of
    this quick before I do something I might regret.
    
    Maybe you all understand my feelings here.  I have the fever!  One
    cat hardly makes a cattery does it?  All of the sudden I want multiple
    Birmans running around the house!
    
    JoAnn
    

    I'm not a breeder (YET...), but I certainly do understand the heart
    ruling the head.  I mean, an especially cute little WARM FUZZY!!!
    I ended up getting two new kittens last month instead of one.
    Couldn't help myself.
    
    I have thought about the "should I add a male" problem as well.
    But my house is not really set up to keep a male separate
    from females, and I am not eager to have my house sprayed.
    If I ever decide to get a male, and give him proper quarters,
    it would probably be after finding a new house. Meanwhile, lots
    of room for grown females and little kitties...
    
    	P

    Hi JoAnn,
    
    I understand what your going through.  But, think very carefully
    about adding a male to your "cattery".  
    
    My personal opinion is, unless your going to be prepared to do Stud
    Service, or purchase a few more female kittens in the next year,
    that you are really not ready for a male.  
    
    You also should think about pedigrees, and is the male "great" enough
    to revolve your entire breeding program around???  Since the one
    male will be the constant in what you produce from your females,
    in my opinion your male should be "exceptional".  
    
    Besides that, what if you produce your own "exceptional"  male,
    won't you want to keep him too???   
    
    I know, it's awfully hard to resist a purring little fuzz ball,
    but, think about what happens when that male fuzz ball is 10 months
    old and chasing everything in your house!!!
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    Penelope and Cin,
    
    Thanks for your quick responses.  It is so hard to think rationally
    with an gorgeous kitten licking your nose.  This boy is only four
    and a half months old and already weighs 6 pounds!  If I had two
    females already then I don't think I would hesitate about getting
    this kitten.  As far as stud service goes, there is only one cattery
    in California that has a Birman at stud and she won't accept any
    females under two years of age.
    
    I prefer male cats to females myself, but I have never kept a male
    whole for very long.  Their personalities have got to be different
    than that of neutered males.  I think that what I will do is save
    my money and have my female bred to the best possible male I can
    find (or as my husband says, to one that we could never afford to
    buy ourselves!) and consider keeping a male of my own breeding later
    on.  I don't think I am ready to have to make plans for keeping
    my cats seperated.  Knowing my luck, they would probably stimulate
    each other into early maturation, and that would bring on the
    seperation even earlier.  Too bad my female isn't older, my cattery
    isn't older, I don't have a larger house, I don't have the money...
    and a million other reasons.
    
    JoAnn
    

    And another thing...
    
    I would have had to spend hours on end thinking up "J" names for
    boy cats like...
    
                    Jefferson
                    Jamison
                    Juggernaut (he was a massive cat afterall)
                    Julius Caeser
                    Jasper
                    Jujitsu...
        

    
    HI, Folks.
    
    My opinion, before I go on vacation.
    
    Breeding age for cats can vary by breed of cat as well as by cat
    personality.  I regularly breed my abys at one year of age (Abys
    mature quickly).  I hold off on my maines as they don't reach full
    maturity until about 4-5 years (Yes, almost any maine you see at
    a show is an immature example.  The breed is evolving so fast that
    the true adult cat is "out of style").  I breed them around 2 years
    of age.
    
    On getting a male cat.
    
    I started with a male maine coon, cause he was the ONLY black/white
    maine in the WHOLE BLASTED COUNTRY that was available.  I dearly
    love Crunch, but when the females came into the cattery, bar the
    door.  I've had abycoons (Aby-maine cross), where he pushed the
    cover off a wall furnace and dashed through the flames (singed hair
    to prove it).  I've had unplanned breedings (when I had plans for
    the girl).  I learned that my house was actually two houses, always
    seperated by doors (hooked, he can shake a door open).
    I also based my breeding program around him, but if you are not
    into in-crossing, that's only one generation.  Also, as stated,
    maines are out of fashion quickly, so I ended up with an old style
    maine (who is currently doing well on the alter circuit in CFA).
    
    Dave
    
    

    Merry Christmas fellow noters- see you on the 29th!  I am Tahoe
    bound for christmas (finally found a cat sitter- my sister)
    
    JoAnn

    More questions... specially for Dave, as I have two maine coons.
    Black and white female, and blue and white male - littermates.
    They are 10 months and weigh in around 12 pounds. (Don't have good
    scale)
    
    Both of them have all white paws.  She has much more white than
    he, having some on her back as well.  She has the neatest little
    black heels in the back (with white panteloons above) hilarious
    from the rear veiw!  He has beautiful bib, upper tummy, and panteloons
    all in white - even has his 'cumberbun' in place.  Looks like has
    a grey tux on!
    
 -  With this type of coloration is a dark spot (black for her, and
    'blue' for him) under the chin on one side a disqualification?
    
 -  Now that it is winter both cats have tremendous static problems.
    They have learned to put paw first instead of nose - zaps hurt
    less than on the wet nose! 
    (none of the pet stores I frequent in Mass have creme rinse for
    cats)  And as that stays on the coat - I don't want to use anything
    for dogs or people.  Do things like vinegar etc. help with this?
    (what kinds of things help/and are ok to use?)
    Also the female has a lot of oily fur problems on her tummy.
    
 -  Bibs and ruffs - finally caught up with their speed growth and they
    get stuck in their tongues when they are grooming (run around chewing
    a mouthfull of fur!)  I have noticed them 'shortening' the fur
    below their chins by chewing on it.  Bib fur looks a little yucky
    by the end of the day.  I usually comb them in the evening to keep
    the fuzzies down in my house.  Easier (and more fun) to get the
    fur at the source!  Anything wrong with combing that often?
    Do baths help the fur shed?  (they have only had one real one -
    after my vacation they needed one - my house/kitty/livin sitter
    wouldn't let them take a shower with her - boy they missed that!)
    
  - Are cystic ovaries hereditary?  If so, I might try and find the
    breeder and let her know.
    
    Thanks!
    \sjm 
     

Well, I can answer some of your questions.
    
    No problem with combing once a day.  Do it more often if you feel
    you'ld like to and the cats like it!!  Some ideas to keep the static
    down would be a good bath with something like "Pro-Coat" made by
    lambert kay.  There is also a very good product put out by Ring5
    called "Coat Gloss".  This is sprayed either on the comb or on the
    cat and will really help lots with the static.  I have also used
    "Static Guard" (a people product) but only sprayed on a brush or
    comb, I have never actually tried spraying this on the cat.  
    
    Your cats sound lovely and well cared for.  
    
    Hope Dave can answer the rest of your questions.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    To get rid of the static problem, a humdifier will help a lot. 
    My kitties never zap themselves anymore, and my sinuses are much
    happier, too!

    I was told *not* to brush my Russian Blues -- that it might
    (would?) lessen the undercoat fullness.  The cats don't seem
    to mind, except for the occasional furball (yuck), but they
    do leave silvery grey hairs EVERYWHERE.  And that color shows
    up on both light and dark clothes, furniture, etc.
    
    Anyone know if I should or should not be brushing them?
    
    Thanks!
    
    	Penelope

    Penelope,
    
    I have an american shorthair (uregistered) that has a wonderful
    undercoat.  I have always brushed him and haven't had a problem
    with him losing coat because of it.  I don't know if that is a 
    problem for russian blues or not.  I have always felt that brushing
    leads to a healthy coat.  You might also try one of those rubber
    combs with the short nubby bristles.  These are very effective in
    removing the loose hairs off Monroe's coat.
    
    JoAnn

    Thanks Joanne,
    
    I thought brushing made sense, but several other people said "No!"
    
    I like the idea of the nubby rubber brush you suggested.  Seems
    less likely to pull out hairs.  
    
    As for brushing, maybe I am just reacting to those long-ago teenage
    years when we were told to brush 100 strokes per night.  I was
    *very* conscientious:  combed my hair once or twice EVERY morning,
    "whether it needed it or not..."  But I have very thin hair -- just
    think of that bushy head I *could* have had!  sigh.
    
    Tag-Along's coat is full and gorgeous -- dare I try to brush it
    all out 10 days before her first show???
    
    	P

    .re: .32
    First action after return from vacation was to dig out the humidifier.
    (note: vacation commenced BEFORE kitties had static, and the usual
    date for dragging out the humidifier was during vacation... sigh)
    The humidifier helped some.  One kitty loves it - her static is
    better - she sits under the 'outflow' where the 'prevailing winds'
    push the water.  Its a sonic gadget that blasts the water without
    heating it or anything.
    Still more static than I would like.  I'll search around for some
    of the things Cin mentioned.
    Thanks for all the suggestions!
    \sjm

    Okay, so I've been remiss. (so I shouldn't take a vacation, at least
    from the notes!)
    
    First things first.  Sound like beautiful cats.  But the spot of
    color...
    In most associations, the spot of color on an "and white" cat is
    NOT a disqualification.  If you run into a real sticky judge in
    CFA or TICA, they can disqualify the cat.  I've never seen it happen
    in Maines.
    
    "And white" cats are given a lot of leeway on pattern, usually.
    
    Bathing the cats, creme rinse, and lots of combing.  I am a compulsive
    comber... friends hand me a comb and their cats when I walk in the
    door.  Three of mine get combed nearly every day.
    But brushing.  Brushing, at least in maines, tends to lead to thinning
    of the fur.  I have one little girl who was brushed often, and her
    fur is just now, 1.5 years, recovering.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Dave

    'Brushing' was probably a slip - wrong word.  I use a metal medium
    fine tooth comb.  I usually get a small handful of fuzz each time
    I comb.  I rarely come across any tangles.
    
    I found and tried one of the sprays (the one by Ring5) that Cin
    mentioned in an earlier reply.  Got more fuzz - but it did control
    the static.  Still some static but not nearly as much as before.
    One kitty didn't like the spray, and the other didn't mind.
    
    Thanks for the help.
    \sally

    Sally,
    Try holding down your kitties ears when you spray the anti-static
    on him.  I have found that when I this, they can't hear the hissing
    noise and therefore don't mind the spray.
    
    I also use a metal comb instead of a brush.  I guess we will have
    to be more specific.  The brush tends to create more static in the
    fur.
    
    JoAnn

    Good suggestions, JoAnn, I didn't even think of the noise.  Also,
    you can spray the Coat Gloss on your hands and rub it into the coat
    before combing.  This might be even easier.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    More questions...
    
    Which company do you purchase vaccinations and medications from?
    Do you need a referral in order to purchase from these companies?
    I have three cats in need of their yearly booster of 3 in 1 vaccine
    and would like to do it myself to save bucks.  Since this is a sub-q
    shot, why not...right?  Does the company that you buy from send
    out an order form of all available vet supplies?  What quantities
    and prices are you expected to purchase?
    
    Jo Ann

    There is a company called MASTER VACCINE that sells all types of
    vaccines, and vet supplies.  Their orders arrive quickly and well
    packed, and are all labeled "vaccine - please rush" so that they
    get special attention.  I personally reccomend getting the actual
    vaccines through your veterinarian.  This way, if there is a bad
    lot (heaven forbid!) then your vet has easier (less expensive to
    you anyhow) recourse.  Many breeder friends of mine also order through
    their vets, and though it may cost a dollar or two more per shot,
    it isn't nearly the $10-$20 the vet would charge to GIVE the shot,
    and you are somewhat protected.  The vaccines are really quite cheap
    when you give them yourself (less than $5/shot), and your vet would
    probably be happy to give you lessons.
    I always take kittens in for a "checkup" at about 12-14 weeks in
    any case.
    
    Good luck!!! 
    Molly

    Now that you mentioned it...
    
    I did have one prior experience with vaccinating a cat.  The breeder
    that I bought my birman from used to live nearby and I would often
    spend time with her at shows and at her home.  When the navy
    transferred her to D.C., she had one vaccine left in her fridge
    and since my cat was due for his shots, she offered it to me.
    
    She gave me instructions on how to administer the shot and let me
    watch her vaccinate her cats so I took the vaccine home with high
    hopes of saving myself the $20.00 the vet charges (approx.)
    
    Monroe, the unsuspecting guinea pig, was very co-operative while
    I administered the shot.  Didn't even flinch.  I was amazed at how
    easy it was!  Then I noticed the stream of red liquid dripping down
    the side of his body!  No wonder he didn't even flinch!  I hadn't
    even pierced the skin!  I laughed until my sides hurt... and then
    I called the vet and made an appointment to have him vaccinated
    for real.
    
    Now that I know what to expect, maybe I will actually get the
    vaccination in the cats body this time!
    
    Jo Ann

.47 is what you see when someone is in the process of writing a note.  
Unfortunately, if your DECnet link aborts before you finish writing the 
note, it looks like that forever, or at least until it is deleted by the 
author or a moderator.

Penny, your NOTES installation has a problem, which you should bring to the 
attention of your system manager.  Probably a message file isn't installed 
properly.

And Deb, since this has nothing to do with cats, feel free to delete this 
(and .47 throught here as well).

Ray

    Lynn...where are you?  I am interested in whatever it is you had
    to say.
    
    Jo Ann

    Well, whoever it was that said the weird message was caused by a
    lost link was correct.  Our systems have been doing their rubber
    ball act today.
    
    Anyway, back to the subject at hand...  I just wanted to mention
    that our vets' office runs well-pet clinics from 8:30 to noon Monday
    through Friday.  These clinics are used mainly for giving vaccinations.
    A technician gives the shots and does a once over on the kitty.
    If he/she sees anything abnormal, then you're referred to one of
    the vets for a more complete workup.  It's a lot cheaper, you basically
    pay mainly for the cost of the vaccine and not the office visit.
    I know there's places in San Jose/Santa Clara that run clinics,
    not sure about Morgan Hill.
    
    You might also want to consider your cats personalities before trying
    to give them a shot.  We have one kitty who just goes "catatonic"
    at the vet's office and is no problem, doesn't even move when blood
    is drawn.  The other one turns into a vet shredder as soon as he
    feels the needle.  Because of some prior experience with needles
    (I worked as a med tech for several years), I tend to worry about
    things like broken off needles, or possibly sticking myself, never
    mind just wasting the vaccine!  Sticking people could be difficult,
    I can't imagine how I'd handle my one shredder cat.  The other one I'd
    do without a moments hesitation, so if yours are like that, then
    go for it.
    
    I'd also check with the vet for handy hints.  A slight shaking of
    the skin near the injection seems to work wonders.
    
    Good luck, let me know how it turns out.
    
    Lynne
    
    P.S.  Moderator, please feel free to delete my earlier attempt.

    When we lived in San Jose, the local humane society used to hold
    vaccination clinics at local shopping centers every six months or
    so.  The fee was two or three bucks and all you had to do was bring
    your cat or dog and wait in line.  I would take mine there (I had
    five cats at the time!)
    
    I feel confidant about my ability to administer a sub-q vaccine
    now.  After my first feeble attempt, I know what to expect.  With
    four cats now and big breeding plans for later on, it will be necessary
    to take some of the vaccinating tasks on myself.
    
    Morgan Hill isn't anything like San Jose when it comes to animal
    care.  Maybe that is because there is alot of money in M.H. (not
    at my house anyway)  They don't seem to have to spend as much time
    and energy providing services.  Also- it is a small commmunity.
    What can you expect from a town who's retail shops *still* close
    at 5:00PM everynight and don't open on Sundays.  I don't know how
    they stay in business!
    
    I was fortunate to find a vet who will work with me on my cattery.
    Even talked him into a quantity discount.  But I still need to cut
    costs.
    
    Jo Ann

    For what it's worth, Penelope, this is a quote from "The Book of
    the Cat" re Russian Blues:
    
      "In one respect, Russian Blues that are to be exhibited in cat
    shows may need special treatment: when grooming. Because of the
    upstanding coat, crae must be taken not to polish and flatten it,
    though the coat of a top-quality Russian Blue should spring up
    regardless of which way it is brushed. Grooming powder, if used,
    should be of a coarse texture, and the coat should first be brushed
    firmly against the lie of the hair and then gently finished by brushing
    lightly back in the natural direction."
    
    I've no idea how true this is, as I've only ever once seen a Russian
    Blue, and don't know how it was groomed! But this book is usually
    quite reliable.

    I talked to my vet about him selling me the vaccine so that I could
    vaccinate my own cats and he said "ABSOLUTELY NOT".  He was resistant
    to keeping me on as a client when I told him last year that I intended
    to breed cats.  I have been able to get him to work with me as far
    as selling me other medications and giving me a quantity discount
    but I do notice a change in the way we relate to one another.
    
    I find this very disturbing since I am the same cat owner that I
    was last year, with the exception that I now feel alot more confident
    about my ability to take a stronger stand on issues concerning the
    health of my cats.  Don't take me wrong, I don't mean that we have
    had run-ins or anything like that.  It is just that I don't go running
    to him every time that one of my cats sniffles or sneezes.  I can
    assess the situation myself and then determine if the cat needs
    to see the vet.  It took me a long time and alot of reading up on
    cat illnesses to get to this point.
    
    The whole situation is really bothering me since I am just now finding
    out how the bulk of vets feel about breeders.  Some friends of mine
    have had some situations arise between the new owners of their kittens
    and the new owners vets.  And then this month there is an article
    about this same subject in cat world magazine.
    
    How did each of you breeders find your vets?  Up until I got my
    Birman, things were going very well with the vet and now I feel
    "funny" each time I go in there.  Should I just call each vet and
    say "how do you feel about cat breeders?" or is there a better way.
    A good friend of mine is an animal technician in an office were
    the owner breeds Balinese.  If they didn't live 3 hours away I would
    use them.  I am almost ready to just let her treat my cats.
    Disillusionment is setting in fast, folks.
    
    Jo
    

    Did you ask your Vet what his reasons were for the "ABSOLUTELY NOT"
    reply you got to your request for purchasing vaccine from him?
    That could relate to a bad experience he might have had.
    I found that with my Vet he even gave me lessons in his office
    on giving my cats shots.  I always take new kittens and cats
    in to him for their first shots and checkup as I can't check
    things like heartbeat, but I give the follow up shots myself,
    and either I buy the vaccine from him or from a Veterinary supply.
    Maybe since I've gone to this Vet for 15 years he has built up
    a confidence in my ability to know when something is really 
    wrong or not.  My vet even refers his customers to me in regards
    to information on Persians, showing cats, etc.  I feel I have
    an excellent working relationship with my vet.
    
    You can try having a talk with him and if that doesn't help, check
    with some of the other breeders in your area such as at the
    show coming up.  Not all Vets have the attitude that yours seems
    to have.  You might just have to shop around for a new vet, but
    make it very clear what you expect from the vet and what you
    expect to do yourself.
    
    						Debbie
    
    You need confidence in your Vet if you're going
    to be a breeder
    

    I talked with my vet this weekend and he had had a bad experience
    with a breeder a few years back.  It was not over vaccines, but
    other medications.  This breeder had stolen his perscription pad
    and somehow gotten ahold of his license number and was ordering
    all types of things with it.
    
    But this doesn't explain why he does not want to sell me vaccines
    though.  He has coached me in how to inject my cats.  Maybe he thinks
    it's a liability problem.  I have been going to this vet for five
    years now and don't really want to change.  Alot of my problem is
    with the office staff rather than the vet himself.  They seem to
    show some ill will towards me.  Maybe it is imagined.  The vet did
    tell me about a feed store in our town that sells the vaccines for
    $4.30 each or $3.25 each if you buy a dozen at once.  I purchased
    one and will "do" Winston as soon as he is off antibiotics for FUS.
    
    I think it is ridiculous for the office staff to require me to bring
    in my cat for a checkup when all he has is tapeworm.  I have dealt
    with it enough to know, and I know how much he weighs so what is
    the big deal.  Part of the resistance from the office staff seems
    to be that they feel that because I won't bring in my cats for every
    little problem that crops up, I don't give them the best health
    care possible.  That is simply not true.  When you have been around
    cats for a number of years, you learn what is serious and what is
    not, what needs immediate treatment and what does not.  
    
    I am also sure that if they looked back over their records they
    would realize the investment that I have in that office.
    Enough of this for now, sometimes I get so carried away!
    
    Jo (who doesn't quite know what she will do yet)
    

    Hi Jo,
    
    I understand your frustration.  
    
    I had been using my vet with pets for many many years before I started
    breeding.  When he first learned I was breeding cats, he thought
    I was insane!!!   You have to understand that I live in the country,
    where I live, cats live in barns and don't go to vets....now I'm
    talking about breeding cats and actually selling them!!!  
    
    In many instances, I feel that my vet learned from me as well as
    me learning from him.  He has encouraged me to do as much as I can
    without bringing the cats in....better for me, better for the cat.
    He suggested me giving my own shots....I don't!!  He coached me
    on how to do it....I still don't!!  My own choice....since he only
    charges me $4.00 for the shots, why should I do it myself, except
    to save the 3 minute ride to the vet!!!  
    
    It takes time to build a good rapport with your vet....seems you've
    been going to yours long enough for him to trust your judgement.
    
    
    I agree with Debbie, talk to some of the other breeders at the next
    show, and see what they think.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    I sure wish I could find a vet like yours!  I am going to make some
    calls this week and see what I can find out.  A few months ago I
    had to take Monroe to a vet in Gilroy (about 15 miles down the road)
    for an emergency on a weekend.  I liked him alot and he and his
    wife used to breed Abys.  I had forgotten all about that until reading
    your notes.  I will have to call him and see how he feels about
    taking on a breeder as a client.
    
    Jo

    Our vet would probably be ideal - his wife breeds British Shorthairs,
    so he obviously has some understanding of breeders. He is also the
    vet of two breeders that I know (one of whom we got Kimi from),
    and they both get on very well with him.
    
    One catch, though: I don't really see you coming to New Zealand to
    visit the vet! Seriously, the vet you mentioned in -1 would probably
    have a similar understnding of breeders.

    A very upsetting thing just happened to me!  I got a call from the
    owner of our house saying that he would be coming over to the house
    this afternoon with an appraiser to reappraise our house.
    
    That in itself is not that upsetting.  Aside from the fact that
    he gave me no notice and expects me to not have a problem with that.
    The way he sees it, if I am not there he will just let himself in.
    
    The problem is that he thinks I have two outdoor cats.  What I really
    have is *four* INDOOR cats!  That is the problem.  With four indoor
    cats there is quite alot of cat paraphenelia laying around.  For
    instance, the 9 foot carpet covered cat tree!  I immediately called
    my husband and warned him.  He went to the house, put three of the
    cats in the garage with a note on the door saying not to let them
    out because they are all sick, took apart the cat tree, reassembled
    it in the garage, took all the food and water dishes and litter
    boxes and toys and cat stuff out to the garage.  Took our kitten
    to his office along with her litter box, food and water dishes,
    toys, bed and carrier.
    
    After all this work, I will bet you anything that the guy doesn't
    even show up.  I am sick and tired of this kind of thing happening.
    So far our efforts to keep him out of our house when we aren't home
    have proved useless.  We need a new place to live.  A place where
    we can have our cats without the hassles we have encountered so
    far.  I have considered putting an ad in the paper:  Wanted...
    3br 2ba home for two adults and 4 cats in Morgan Hill.
    
    Anybody have any suggestions on how to find housing when you have
    a multiple cat family?!
    Jo

    This is probably an extreme shot in the dark, as I realise there
    are very large numbers of Abyssinians in the US, but I'll give it
    a go anyway.
    
    On looking through Kimi's pedigree today, I noticed he has two American
    cats on his pedigree, and I wondered if any of you recognised the
    prefix and knew anything about it. The cats are:
    
    1. Grand Champion Nepenthes Tequila of Badfinger
    2. Tausert's Kio Kaxam
    
    Tequila was exported to Germany, his daughter was sent to the UK
    and her son to NZ. Kio was sent to the UK and his daughter to
    Australia, then her grandson (Kimi's sire) to NZ. It is all but
    impossible to import a cat directly from the US to NZ.

    Some good lines in that there aby.  Nepenthes is currently the hot
    aby breeder (great color, clean coats, good disposition).  Badfingers
    is prehaps the winningest (in recent times) of aby breeders.
    
    Tausert , if memory serves correctly, is basically a badfingers
    offshoot.
    
    Will check my records when I get home tonight.
    
    Dave

    IN RESPONSE TO .63 - 
    
    I know how you feel about intrusions on your (rented) property.
    Karl and I have been having the same problem with the apt. omplex
    we're in right now.  Since I arrived in october, they have had 4
    inspections.  You might want to take note that it is California
    State law that you be given WRITTEN notice a reasonable amt. of
    time before the landlord has someone enter the premises - except
    in case of dire emergency (flood, etc.).  I know that you wouldn't
    want to alienate the landlord by getting nasty about it, but you
    might want to check up on exactly what your rights are.....
    
    Good luck, and see you this weekend!!!!
    
    Molly

    Re .63, also...
    
    I've got a similar problem, but my landlord doesn't allow pets at
    all!  The boys and I are living in sin, I suppose!  I've had Honey
    for 4 1/2 years, and they haven't said a word.  At first, I used
    to remove any sign of cat to my bedroom and close him, his food
    and litter box in the room when they needed to come in to do furnace
    maintanence or whatever, but now, I just make sure everything is
    immaculate before they come in.  Honey is petrified of men, so when
    they do come in, he bolts up to the bedroom and hides under the
    bed anyway.  Chauncey, however, doesn't do that.  I'm afraid that
    some day when they come in to work on the lawn sprinkler system,
    he may just stroll out the open door.  They tend not to notify me
    when they need to work on the sprinklers; they just come on in and
    do the work.  I'm afraid to complain too much...what do I say? 
    "Please don't come when I'm not there...I don't want my illegal cats
    to run out"?  I've got to think of something, but then, spring and
    summer (sprinkler season) seem so far away today!
    
    Mary

    Mary,
    You could just tell them that since the last time that they inspected
    you have found _______ to be missing  and now they are no longer
    allowed in your apartment without you being there.  You don't have
    to give details and you can also say that you have no proof (which
    you don't since the story is fabricated) but you want to be safe.
    
    This is an out and out lie but at least it will not make them
    suspicious about why they suddenly can't come in by themselves anymore.
    
    Be sure that you say that you "think there is a possibility that
    it may have disappeared during their last visit"  don't make any
    accusations, be vague.  They will want to protect themselves against
    any future losses of your property.
    
    Jo

    I remember reading once that in New York there is a law that says
    that if you can prove that you have had your cat inside for 3 months
    then the owner can't evict you for a pets violation.  The trick
    is proving that you have had him for 3 months.
    
    The reason for this law is the shortage of housing in NY.
    Anyone no any more specifics about this law?
    Jo

    Well, I really don't want to get on the bad side of the maintenance
    guys here since they've never said a word to the management about
    my kitties.  I'm more concerned about them getting out somehow.
    I think I'll have a little chat with them when it gets to be spring
    (and by looking out at the raging blizzard hitting us, spring may
    never get here!!).
    
    That sounds like a good law N.Y. has there.  I've got enough vet
    bills to prove I've had both Honey and Chauncey for decades!  Besides,
    my standard lease says they will provide heat and hot water (which
    they don't; I pay for that), so if they want to get picky, I'll
    give them my gas bills for the past 5 years and see what they say!
    I could retire on that tidy sum!
    
    Mary

    Re .65
    
    Thanks very much, Dave, for your helpful reply. Neat to hear that
    Kimi comes of such illustrious heritage!