Conference misery::feline_v1

I know we're an Ocean apart but don't you think it's rather unfair
to insist on neutering/spaying of kittens before handing over the
pedigrees, etc?  The "rules" might be slightly different in the US
than in the UK, but surely it is up to the individual new owner 
whether he/she wants to let the kitten have a family (presuming its
a female) when it's older - he/she may not decide to register a prefix
or to breed "professionally" but there is no practical reason why
she shouldn't.

I hate to sound blunt but I wouldnt buy a cat from you under those
conditions.

If you've read my earlier note regarding CAT SHOWS - you'll see that
I have a Sealpoint Colourpoint (or Himalayan to you in the US) and
a Blue Longhair.  It is my full intention to let Tosca, the Colourpoint,
have a litter - I haven't consulted the breeder as to whether I may or
may not - it was not a condition of sale or anything like that.  As the
new owner of that animal, surely it is my decision not the breeder's 
as to whether she has an opportunity for sexual experience!

I can of course appreciate the criteria by which you make the proviso,
in that to maintain the standard points of the breed, you should only
breed best to best to get the best, so to speak - but we are talking
about "pet cats" in this context.


John


PS:  By the way, she won't just have any old Tom, Dick or Harry!

I have to disagree with you.  If the owner wants to make that provision upon 
selling the animal that's great!  Nobody is forcing you to buy from that 
breeder.  I just went through a rather traumatic time with some neighbors who
were let their dog run wild.  The poor thing had 4 litters in less than a year!
She couldn't nurse her last set of puppies so I ended up bottle feeding them
(and watching the runt die on my lap which just about killed me).  There are 
too many unneutered animals as is!  In this case, if you want to breed the 
animal, buy a breeding quality animal.  Oh by the way, this practice of 
a neuter contract is not uncommon in the states, not only breeders but also
animal shelters use it.

tlh

Also, the provision that you neuter before allows the breeder to reduce
the prices drastically.  A breeder will sell you a cat for $175 or so if
you neuter it but sell it for $300 or so if it is going to be showed.
I guess this keeps the competition down.  At any rate, I have no desire
to show a cat and the I always have my animals neutered, so I find the
above definitely useful to my bank account.

When I got my Maine Coon Cat, I found one requirement I had not considered.
Not only do most breeders require you neuter your cat, but also that you
keep him inside.

I don't intend to re-open the issue of indoor vs outdoor in this file, but
I let my cats out and I had to look around quite a bit to find someone who
would sell me a cat without having me sign his freedom away (I live way away
from busy roads).

After much looking, I found a breeder that did not require neutering or
keeping the cat in, but I looked for a long time.

Re: .2/.3

I wouldn't buy a cat from ANYONE who made a proviso that you had to
keep it indoors - if I was in Manhattan maybe I could understand it
- but even in most parts of suburban New York there are green places
aren't there?

Regarding conditions of sale to prevent uncontrolled breeding - perhaps
my "statement" wasn't specific enough - it is no more my intention
than it would be yours that you should let such a cat have a free hand.
What I am saying is that whether the queen is of breeding quality or
not, the decision of to have kittens or not to is, surely, up to the
new owner.

Regarding prices - don't you think you in the States have rather inflated
views on kitten prices - $300 for a "show quality cat" seems rather
excessive to me - 100 pounds (no pound sign available) in the UK is 
considered expensive for all except the very highest pedigree.

I can assure you you would have little success in selling your kittens
at the National Cat Club Show at Olympia in London this next weekend
for your so-called reasonable prices - you'd be laughed at.   I shall
be going to the Show - so I'd be able to join in.

RE: .1,.4

I have been breeding persians and himalayans for 5 years now, and
have sold pets with neuter agreements since the beginning.  Any 
kitten which I do not feel is of quality to produce better than 
themselves is considered a pet and sold with neuter agreement to a
pet home.  Several reasons for this, the main reason is that it is
much healthier for a cat (especially a female) to not have kittens.  

There are so many unwanted cats and kittens, the main intension of
breeding a cat should be to IMPROVE the breed only, not to just
produce more of that breed.  

As for the price, in the states, $150-$175 for a Persian or 
Himalayan even with an alter agreement is considered "cheap".  If
you checked any pet shop in the states, the average price for
a Persian would be at least $300.  As for breeding cats, I sell
many of breeding cats every year, and the lowest price I sell these
for is $350.  As for show quality cats, they start at $500.  I have
paid as much as $2,000 for himalayans, and $1500 for persians.
Persians are a little less expensive.  Also, note that the quality
of the "so called" show cats in Europe are not anywhere near what
they are here.  I show my cats almost every weekend and have waiting
lists for both breeding and show quality kittens, so I don't think
my prices can be to excessive.  I'ld be interested to know what
you find at the cat show, I have often wanted to travel to Europe
for a Cat Show.  If you think it's possible, I would much love
to have a brochure or catalog from the show and would be happy
to give you my address and reimburse for postage and purchase 
of the catalog.  

Cin

Price is really a matter of supply and demand. I paid $250 for Erick, a "pet 
quality" Birman, but paid $200 for Zorro, a "Show quality" Maine Coon.

As for the question of improving the breed, I can understand that desire, 
especially with Persians and Himmmies (which together account for over %50 of 
all show cats in the U.S.); but for rarer cats, not only does the definition 
of "show quality" much looser, but sometimes fades away. I could see the sense 
in breeding a "pet quality" Ocicat, where the danger is not of the breed 
degenerating from outside influences, but from excessive inbreeding. 

The stud books for Maine Coons have been closed for only three or four years
now, so the breed is still rather robust. I can understand a no-breed policy 
on pet quality kittens in most cases. (Exception: One of Zorro's brothers, 
Suicide Charlie, lost two inches of his tail in an accident (a tragic thing to 
happen ot a Maine Coon). He was "pet quality," but also breeding quality.) But 
for Oriental Shorthairs, which are starting to develop health problems because 
of excessive inbreeding? I'm not so sure.

    Jon

    An update on the price of purebred cats in the states.  Birman kittens
    (pet quality) are now going for about $300.  Breeding quality are
    around $400 and top show are from $550 and up.  There are variations
    on these prices depending on the breed.  I just purchased a Birman
    female (breeder/show) so I did alot of research into the prices
    and quality of available kittens.
    
    I know this is two years later, but I hope someone out there is
    still reading this file.  I would love to hear from anyone with
    a Birman and also other breeders.
    
    I feel that it is the breeders choice to decide whether her pet
    quality cats should be allowed to breed or not.  Breeders feel a
    sense of responsibility about kittens that they have produced. 
    I can't speak for all breeders, but I am sometimes torn between
    my desire to breed and show cats and my knowledge that there are
    so many homeless cats and kittens around already.  It is for that
    reason that I will require all pet quality kittens that I sell to
    go to their new homes with a contract stating that they must be
    altered before registration papers will be sent.
    
    Without getting into the ethics of breeding, there is one more point
    I would like to address.  Most breeders do not charge more for breeding
    quality kittens because they want to keep the competition down. Most
    catteries  that I know of do not consider their own kittens and
    cats (those that they have bred and sold) as competition but as
    an advertisement for their cattery.  The reasons for the additional
    charges are 
    	a.  It is difficult to produce breeder and show quality kittens
    	b.  Potential breeder and show kittens are usually kept much
    	    longer at the cattery (3 to 4 months) until their quality
    	    can be determined, this leads to increased costs due to
            vet bills, cost of feeding and caring for them.
        c.  Breeding cats is not a money maker as most people think.
            Most breeders are lucky to break even.  The costs involved
    	    in running a cattery can be astronomical.  Most catteries
    	    can't even be considered a business because they cannot
    	    show a profit.  For this reason they are considered hobbies.
        d.  The price of kittens depends on the the breed chosen.  Some
    	    breeds are more difficult to find and others have waiting
    	    lists for kittens.  As was mentioned in an earlier reply-
    	    supply and demand. I looked for 11 months for my Birman
    	    kitten before I found a good quality one.
    
    Lets hear from more breeders about these subjects.
    
    Jo Ann
    	
     
    

    Jo Ann,
    
    Your right on all accounts.  I used to record all of my expenses
    and income in hopes to be able to show a profit from what I was
    doing.  After about 3 years, the figures were so depressing that
    I decided not to keep track anymore.  Especially if you show at
    all, you cannot possibly make money at breeding.  
    
    My pet persian kittens now are currently selling for between $175
    and $200.  My breeders start at around $400 and Show kittens will
    go from $500 and up.....   
    
    And your right, I produce very few breeders or show kittens, in
    comparison to the pets that I seem to get.  But then again, because
    someone showing one of my kittens is "advertisement", I will sometimes
    underestimate the quality.  
    
    An example, I brought a kitten to a CFF show last spring to sell,
    because they wanted to have "Fire" there for exhibition.  The kitten
    wasn't that bad, so I decided I'ld show her and if I had a chance
    to sell her (as a pet), I'ld just absent her from the remaining
    rings.  Well, she made it to 2 rings, and made 2 finals (lower top
    10).  I sold her as a pet!!!   Even though she made the finals,
    I still didn't consider her to be the quality that I wanted to sell
    for breeding.
    
    

    Hi Cin, and Jo Ann!
    	Interesting note to revive!
    I actually find that with the lines I'm working with in persians,
    the prices of breeder and show quality kittens averages out to be
    much higher.  I personally have not sold many breeder, or show cats,
    because I, too prefer to have them go to pet homes if possible.
    I have sold several 'show' quality kittens as pets.  On the east
    coast, it is currently typical to pay $500-$600 for a breeder, this
    is usually a showable cat, but one that is not guaranteed to grand.
    My stud was sold to me as a $600 showable breeder, and I granded
    him at 8 months of age in 2 shows.  He just developedvery well.
    We knew he had the potential - just weren'y sure he'd live up to
    it.  Also in the east, a good top show persian (from the lines I
    work with) goes for about $2000.  I would actually consider this
    a good investment in the case of a male (the male will produce far
    more kittens than a female).  The woman I bought my male from owns
    his father, and paid $2000 for him about 4 years ago.  In that time
    he has produced 18 CFA Grand Champions, and several national winners
    including Himalayan hybrids (he produced a cream male Himalayan hybrid
    who was the National best cream persian for CFA last year).  
    	Out here in southern california (L.A./Orange County) the prices
    seem to actually be higher!  A friend of mine back east has been
    getting lots of inquiries about breeder and show kittens, and when
    she told them $600-$700 for breeders and $1500-$2000 for top show,
    they thought that was really cheap!  Another fellow who called her
    was delighted at her reasonable prices, and said that he had replied
    to another top breeder (after hearing the HIGH prices) and asked
    if the kitten came with its own car!!!  Anyhow, it doesn't seem
    to be unusual to get $2500-$5000 for a top show kitten out here.
    It's also not too unusual to get $1000 for a good breeder.  Well
    I don't think I'M going to go that far, but it's really interesting
    to see how the market differs.  I hope I don't get any flames from
    west coast persian breeders, but I'll have to say that from what
    I've seen out here, the general quality of persian cats is far better
    in the east.  There just seems to be more depth at the shows in
    the east - more top quality cats.  Maybe people pay more for really
    good ones out here, because they are harder to get???
    
    Re: Catteries as business - 
    	My cattery is considered a business, and so far I have not made
    money, but then again I just established it as such last year. 
    One friend has been breeding for 16 years, and made money for the
    first time this year.  She has her cattery incorporated, and has
    never been questioned on her 'business' status.  Yes, it would be
    nice to break even (I lost $4000 last year - not counting 'expenses'
    at cat shows), but I love my cats dearly, and I couldn't think of
    giving them up.  When one of the cats 'retires' from breeding I
    decide whether I think the cat is happy living with me, or would
    be happier as someones pet.  I don't like to pass breeders on to
    other catteries.  It isn't often a nice life...  Mine are all my
    pets, and if they go to live elswhere, it is as a pet.  
    
    Re: Neuter agreements  
    	I ALWAYS tell people that a pet kitten must be neutered in order
    to get the registration papers.  I will give the pet owner a copy
    of the pedigree, along with an explaination of terms, and an additional
    list of relatives who have received awards (e.g. litter sister is
    CFA Grand Champion xxxxxxxxxx).  Most people think that the pedigree
    constitutes 'papers' anyway.  I recently had a woman call me who
    had bought a pet kitten last year.  She wanted his registration
    papers.  I asked if he had been neutered and she said, "Oh, no!
    I think that's unnatural!"  Well, I was horrified!  I discuss
    neutering, the risks of going outdoors, etc. with people before
    I sell to them, if they don't like it I won't sell to them, and
    I refer them to other breeders (most of whom believe as I do).
    All I could think of was this poor adult whole male wh would never
    be able to breed (unless she has something planned she didn't tell
    me about!).  That's a miserable life for a cat!  I told her that
    I'd be happy to send the pedigree, and the papers would follow if
    she sent me a neuter certificate from her vet.  Well, she threatened
    to call her lawyer, and I thought that was a good idea.  I also
    suggested she call the CFA, to see if they felt it was a fair practice.
    She was also going to call some other breeders.  I never heard back
    from her.  My feeling is that I can't make someone neuter their
    cat, or never breed it, but as a responsible breeder of persians,
    and dedicated to improving the breed, I can see that none of the
    offspring of those pet kittens is ever registered or shown.  If
    she wants to have a litter, and sell the babies, no one is stopping
    her.  The value is about the same without papers (I don't sell mine
    with papers), AND I can at least keep them out of the pet stores!!!!
    Pet stores normally will not take unregistered kittens to sell.
    Also - about pet stores - nothing really wrong with lots of them
    - but they have this annoying habit of putting all the kittens,
    from any cattery together.  If any of them came with infestations,
    fungus, or illness, ALL of them are exposed!  The pet store has
    no better ways to fight that than we (the breeders) do.  I for one
    would never expose kittens from unknown catteries to one another.
    
    Well so much for that ramble - it's good to have a little breeder
    discussion going on.  I think is great to share ideas, etc. and
    also let the normal cat people get to understand us a little better.
    
    Cheers everyone!
    
    Molly

    Hi Molly,
    
    It feels good to hear these things in this note.  This note was
    the reason I dropped out of this file long ago.  I'm glad I decided
    to give it another try and come back.
    
    I too agree with Molly, and I never pass on a breeder cat to another
    breeder when I am through with her.  Gee, I don't like the way that
    sounds, but, I don't mean it quite that way.  I have them spayed,
    and find loving pet homes for them.  Because I live in an apartment
    I have a restriction on the number of cats I can have.  I'm only
    supposed to have 4, and I've pushed it to 6.  I wouldn't keep an
    altered cat, although, I have 2 now that I will NEVER place ever,
    no matter what!!!
    
    The prices I gave for persians were "low-end" prices.  It is not
    unusual to pay the kind of prices that Molly stated in her note.
    But, buying a "high-priced" cat with a good line, is well worth
    the investment.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    Molly and Cin,
    
    It is great to see that the two of you are still checking this file.
    Being new to breeding, I hope to gain from your expertise.  I just
    bought my first Birman kitten and I am a little apprehensive about
    a couple of things.  The kitten is due to arrive on Saturday the
    22nd of November from Washington DC.
    
    I purchased her for breeding and showing from a breeder that I got
    to know here in California.  She moved to DC at the beginning of
    '86.  I am worried about two things.  First of all, I had to purchase
    the kitten without seeing her first.  This was not because of the
    breeder but because I could not get away from work to go out there,
    and it wasn't financially feasible.  The breeder and I did communicate
    on the phone and through the mail.  She provided me with the pedigree
    and gloving charts as well as a personal assessment of the kittens
    disposition.  Have either of you ever purchased a kitten in this
    way?  It was my decision to go ahead and buy her, but now I thinking
    I should have been more careful.
    
    The second thing that worries me is that the kitten is flying out
    here (to San Francisco International from Dulles) air cargo since
    there will be no one to accompany her.  We did get a nonstop flight
    but I am concerned because of the weather on the east coast.  News
    reports indicate that it has been very cold out there lately.
    
    Please answer right away... I need reassurance.
    
    Jo Ann
    
    
    
    a

    While I am neither of the people you said hi to, I'll offer my
    reassurances. I have sold a number of kittens this way, and have
    never had anyone get upset, or had anything bad happen to my kittens.
     The one time I almost bought a kitten via phone bank, I decided
    not to, and to get a kitten locally.  The kitten I turned down later
    became CFA's 16 best cat of the year, and the highest scoring maine
    coon in recent CFA times.
    
    Most airlines have VERY stringent rules on flying animals, for instance
    we could only fly a more expensive service when the temperature
    is over 85 degrees.  This service provides animal passengers with
    the same transfer/unload time as human types.
    
    Now, DON'T FLY AMERICAN.  They recently lost a woman's cat, after
    flying the cat to the wrong city (Chicago instead of Boston). AA's
    comment?  "If we can't find the cat in a week, we'll send you a
    claim form".  Last I heard, the lady was flying to Chicago to try
    and find her cat herself.
    
    Dave

    Hi Dave,
    
    Glad to hear from you.  I did hear about the cat that was lost by
    American Airlines.  My kitten is flying United.  It is reassuring
    to hear that you have been successful in transporting kittens via
    the airlines.  By the way, how cold is it on the east coast lately?
    I'm still worried about the kitten becoming too cold while waiting
    on the tarmack for the plane to take off.  Out here in California
    we are having a beautiful indian summer day with temperatures in
    the mid 70's.  Hard to believe isn't it.  Guess we won't be skiing
    on Thanksgiving after all.
    
    On to Maine Coons.  I have two "look alikes" at home now.  A good
    friend (and Maine Coon breeder) helped get me started in this by
    suggesting that I show my half breeds as household pets.  Once I
    got into it I was hooked.  It was difficult for me decide between
    Maine Coons and Birmans.  I still may do both later on.  Anyway
    my friends name is Patsy Stephens of Napa Valley Maine Coons.  She
    is the breeder of Napa Valleys Quiet Riot.  Now there is a cat to
    die for!  Had she been willing to sell him to me I would have
    definitely gone for Maines!  He granded recently at a show in San
    Francisco, he is only about 11 months old.
    
    Another thing... isn't your cattery name Anjellicle?  Jellicle was
    my first choice for cattery name but of course it was too popular
    already and was turned down.  I am a big fan of T.S. Elliot.  I
    am still considering naming my kitten Jellylorum (from "The Naming
    of Cats").  I can't wait for the "L" year so that I can name a cat
    Lady Griddlebone (from "Growltiger's Last Stand").
    
    Hope to hear from you again soon
    
    JoAnn 
    
    
    

    As to the east coast weather, Last I heard was some sort of blizzard.
    (I'm in Houston TX, where it is pushing 80 or so). 
    
    My abbys go under Anjellicle, my maines under MCALLI (Maine Coons
    and Alley cats).  My favorite names from that are Macavity and Mr.
    Mestopholes.
    
    Good luck with your kitten.
    
    Dave

    Hi JoAnn,
    
    I have purchased cats in the same way you did, on the breeders good
    word, and pedigree.  I have never been disappointed by my purchases.
    If you have chosen a reliable breeder, I don't think you'll have
    a problem.  
    
    Well, as far as weather on the east coast, it's pretty cold.  You
    might ask the breeder sending the cat to put a "sweater" on the
    kennel.  Here in the east, they have kennel covers which help to
    insulate the carrier.  I have never had an airline refuse to send
    a carrier with a "sweater" on it.  But, anyways, it shouldn't be
    too much of a problem, they hand carry the cats on and off the plane
    and the cargo area in the plane is heated.  
    
    I have shipped many cats, and have only had a problem once....again,
    that was with American!!!  Believe it or not...I had a cat shipped
    in from Ohio during the winter and they left her out on the cart
    with the luggage for almost 45 minutes before they brought her inside.
    She ended up with a cold for a few days.  Poor girl!!  
    
    Good luck with your kitty.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    Hi JoAnn,
         I sent my Snowshow kitten from Colorado to New Hampshire using
    United Airlines and was extreemly pleased with their service.  I
    don't think that you need to worry too much about the weather as
    they won't allow you to ship a pet unless the weather is OK at all
    ends (ie even if there is a layover that is checked too). 
         I have purchased a couple of kittens now sight unseen and 
    haven't had any problems.  In fact have another coming in about
    a week that I haven't seen yet, just pictures that still didn't
    show much.  So if the person you are dealing with is reputable
    you shouldn't have to worry.  The kitten I'm getting next week
    is supposed to be grand quality and if it doesn't turn out she
    has told me that she'd take him back or work something else out.
    I think that is pretty fair.
         Hope it works out for you too.
    
    					Debbie
    

    Cin, Dave, and Debbie...
    
    Thanks for the vote of confidence!  I discussed the sweater idea
    with the breeder and she said she usually does cover the exterior
    of the carrier when there is a possibility of bad weather.
    
    I've been counting down the weeks and days for about the last month
    and a half.  ONLY two days to go now!  How do you deal with the
    EXTREME excitement.  This poor kitten is going to be smothered with
    affection when it finally does arrive.  I have been looking for
    a Birman for about the last 11 months.
    
    Debbie- I can't remember your cattery name.  I've been keeping my
    eye on the show reports to see if any of my new friends deserve
    congratulations.  Do any of you subscribe to the CFA almanac?  What
    is it, what does it do for you, what do you like and/or dislike
    about it, do you think it's necessary for breeders to have?  Phew!
    Are you still with me?  Also, do any of you ever show in California?
    
    JoAnn
    
    

    I used to subscribe to the CFA Almanac.  It's a good publication
    for a person really heavy into showing CFA.  It lists each show,
    and the points scored by each cat in the show.  It's great for
    tabulating points and such.  There are sometimes articles on different
    breeds and such, but the biggest content of the magazine is on the
    shows and the scores.  At least that's what I found....I was a
    "charter" subscriber...and I'll probably always keep my first
    copy...who knows, someday it might be worth something!!  tee hee..but,
    I don't subscribe anymore.
    
    Maybe it's changed since then, I'm not sure....anyone else get it??
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    Hi JoAnn
         I get the CFA Almanac and find it very useful in finding out
    what the upcoming shows are, when and where.  The next issue should
    show the October shows and hopefully (if all our calculations are
    correct) it should show the Oct 25-26 show in Colorado Springs with
    LaForet's Winston Churchill as the top kitten in the show.
         My cattery is LaForet which in French means the forest.  I
    lived in an area called the Black Forest when I picked the name.
         I hope your kitten arrives safe and sound and is everything
    you wanted.
         I am planning on coming to California for a show the weekend
    before Christmas.  The show is in the LA area.  Is that anywhere
    close to you?  If so maybe we can get a chance to meet.  Also,
    meet any other DEC people that aren't too busy with their Christmas
    shopping.
    
    						Debbie
    

    While I'm in the middle of a show slowdown, I've shown in L.A. (the
    western edge limit to date), and to New York (the other edge limit).
    But usually I stay around the Gulf Coast region.
    
    I'll just have to wait for my own true "show-stopper" before I go
    truly national.
    
    Dave

    Hi Debbie,
         I have been reading the Cats Magazine show reports, but the
    CFA almanac sounds like it might be more complete.  I think I will
    subcribe to it.
         L.A. is a bit far for me to travel right now.  It takes about
    five hours to get there from Morgan Hill.  I don't know how familiar
    you are with California, but Morgan Hill is about 25 miles south
    of San Jose.  So far, I have only been attending shows within 3
    hours drive of home.  There are alot of shows out here so that keeps
    me very busy.
         One of my cats is named MySinhs Winston Churchill.  He is a
    household pet Maine Coon mix, blue classic tabby with white.  At
    a show in San Jose in September he won the Morris Award and was
    entered in the new National Morris Award Competition.  The winner
    will be given a years supply of cat food and the chance at fame
    and fortune.
         The catch is... he now goes on to compete in a Semi-final round
    of competition.  There will be four of those this season and he
    can go to all four (as if we can afford to campaign a hhp) but he
    must attend at least one.  Three cats will be chosen from each
    semi-final round to compete for the coveted title in New York (All
    expenses paid if you make it this far)  They also have a provision
    that says if you don't make it in the semi-finals this year you
    can go to them next year.
         Well, to make a long story short, I was hoping at least one
    of the semi-finals would be held in CA, but Nooooooooo.  They will
    be in Seattle, Cincinatti, Dallas and New York this year.  I think
    it will be least  expensive to go to Seattle.  Anybody live in any
    of these cities.
         Tomorrow I pick up my kitten and I had planned on just showing
    her for a while.  I'm trying to cut expenses for the next couple
    of months so if anyone is willing to put up me and the cat for a
    couple of days... let me know.  The semi-finals will be held between
    January 4th and March 2nd.
    
    JoAnn
    
    PS- Winston is the best behaved cat I have ever had, as for me...
    no comment. (just kidding, I have never clawed a sofa in my life!)
    
    

    Okay folks, here comes the kitten story.
    
    The plane was due to arrive and SFO at 1153 AM on Saturday morning
    so Ken an I got up good and early and started kitten proofing the
    house.  We got to the airport at about 12:0 and the plane had just
    arrived.  After an excrutiating wait of an hour and a half ( I was
    going bonkers by the time they brought her to us) they finally located
    our new baby and brought her to us.  There were other cats on the
    flight and they had to figure out which one was which, or some other
    such story was given.
    
    I opened the cage and looked in and it was love at first sight!
    She definitely has the Birman "sweet faced" look that I had wanted.
    I took a chance and put my hand into her carrier, half expecting
    her to claw the heck out of my hand.  She nuzzled me!  We hit it
    off right from the start.
    
    On the way home (sixty miles or so) she stayed curled up in my lap
    "making bread" on me.  My husband actually had the nerve to suggest
    that I drive home so that he could hold the kitten!  Well, I never...
    
    Once at home I was able to access her markings and show potential.
    She looks real good so far.  Hard to tell with Birmans at this age.
    Her gloves are perfect in front (even line across both feet) tho
    a might high, could be a problem if they get any higher.  Laces
    are very nice, good eye color, so far so good.  I'm taking her to
    a San Francisco show on the 20-21 of December to see how she does.
    All for now got to go.  I'll continue the story later on.
    JoAnn
    

    My birman kitten has her first show this weekend in San Francisco
    at the Hall of Flowers in Golden Gate Park.  I will also be agenting
    an adult female sealpoint birman for a friend.  I'd be interested
    in meeting any other noters that might be there.
    
    JoAnn

    Hi JoAnn!
    	I haven't been into this file much lately - out at a customer
    site....  Debbie and I showed Winston Churchill last weekend down
    here in Orange County.  It was great!!! Winston won lots of prizes!
    This was a very unusual show for CFA, giving prizes to all finalists
    in all rings.  I think there were only two kittens who outscored
    Winston (one of which was 2 days short of 8 months old!).  Winston
    will be 6 months on XMAS day.  Anyhow, I will be keeping Winston
    here with me for the next 6 weeks or so, and showing him around
    california.  Mostly I'll be going to shows around L.A., Palm Springs,
    and Santa Barbara (That must only be about 4 hrs for you?).  I MIGHT
    go to the big San Jose show jan 25th.  Will you be there?  Let me
    know so we can bench together if I do go.
    This is really exciting!!!  
    
    Molly
    

    Molly,
    Just read this note after sending off my last mail to you.  This
    explains alot.  I was so confused about where you were located!
    The show that you attended last weekend in Orange County, was that
    in Costa Mesa?  A good friend of mine had her sealpoint Birman male
    kitten at Costa Mesa last weekend and did very well.  His name is
    Dunnydeer's Jellybean.  I was thinking about doing that show also
    but then decided on the SF show because it was closer.  Knowing
    that you are out there now, maybe I will start reconsidering the
    southern california shows.  Great to hear from you again in notes!
    
    JoAnn

    Aha! So that's the kitten that edged Winston out of Miriam Faulkner's
    final!!!  Winston's "grandma" asked that judge what she thought
    of him, after he failed to make it to her allbreed final, and was
    told that she thought he was outstanding, and the last decision
    she made was between him, and the birman kitten.  She thought they
    were equally good representatives of their breeds, but that it was
    so rare to see such a great birman kitten.  We thought that was
    fine, and felt better to know he was considered.  Nice to know that
    win went to a friend of a friend....
    
    Molly

    Molly,
    
    I didn't realize that Teddy (as he is affectionately called) had
    gone head to head with Winston.  Frankly, I am relieved that he
    is now in the adult class.  He really is a great kitten.  Sandra
    bought him at the Birman show in Ohio last August, he is an import
    from England.  I hope to get a kitten from his lines next August
    in Ohio.
    
    You mentioned Oxdowne in mail.  Do you know Betty Cowles?  I could
    use a reference for her.  I would like to use one of her males as
    stud for my birman when the time comes.
    
    Talk to you soon
    JoAnn
    

    This goes out to Dave and Cin and Penelope and anyone else I might
    have missed...
    
    I am extending a personal invitation to all of you to come to the
    San Jose show on January 24-25, 1987!  We are going to have a great
    time!  I am planning a tailgate party at the show on Saturday and
    it would be great to get together and finally meet in person.
    
    Let me know if any of you need more info.
    
    JoAnn

    okie, here's something to open up a note that hasn't been used in
    a long while (gee, i actually did a dir/title, i'm so proud!  ;D
     
    
    in perusing my cat book that i have studied in an effort to understand
    more about purebreds, genetics and cats in general, i was particularly
    interested in the persian section--not because i happen to like
    persians all that much (too much fur!), but because a friend of
    mine owns a himmie and we visited a show in an effort to see what
    they were like.  now, a persian shower there said that the peke-face
    is what makes a show persian these days--the extreme, shoved in
    nose that makess the cat look like a pekinese-faced feline.  he
    implied that any persian without the extreme shortness of nose is
    NOT a show-quality persian.
    
    in looking at my book (which was published in 1980), it depicts
    many persians which have the short face, but NOT the peke face...in
    fact, it says that the peke-faced persian and the other faced persian
    are considered to types---knowing that this book is a bit old and
    that things may have changed, i have a few questions:
    
    1) IS there two show quality type of persians--peke and non-peke
    face?  or is peke faced the ONLY acceptable face right now?  (i
    personally loathe it--i think the other face is more aesthetically
    pleasing.  if i wanted a bull dog....)
    
    2) if the non-peke is acceptable, what are the standards for such
    a face, ie how short does the nose have to be, etc?
    
    3) if the peke face is the only acceptable, is that because it is
    the "in" face right now...the desired style?  i know that standards
    can change according to a "look"--i would have thought some of the
    older, more established breeds would have been "set" for some time
    now, except for variations on color.
    
    4) what is a good market book listing cat breeds and standards?
     I have the book of the cat--which to me, is very informative andd
    seems to cover all the breeds mentioned in this notesfile, including
    ragdolls and snowshoes, etc...  
    
    don't get me wrong-i do not dislike persians but they are an extreme
    to me and i have never much cared for the shortened muzzle look
    (as i do not care for the super-elongated exotic head, either--i
    seem to recall siamese a bit shorter-headed--is this a relatively
    new trait?)  i do not mean to discredit or put down people who like
    those cats--there is no cat or dog i HATE, just what i prefer, and
    despite my personal preferences, i am VERY curious to know about
    all breeds.  one never can know too much!
    
    thanks in advance for the help!
    
                                                             ---kim

    Cin is probably the person that should answer this for you, since
    I don't breed or show persians.  But, I can tell you what I know
    (or think I know as the case may be).
    
    I think that there are two types of persians, peke-face and regular
    face.  It seems that I heard someone saying that the peke face actually
    had a different bone structure to the skull than the regular face
    persian has. Now, as far as what is different about the bone structure,
    that is what I am not sure of.  I think that the difference is in
    the forehead, and I have heard comments from breeders about concave
    boning.  I am not sure what they mean by this, maybe Cin can help
    us to figure this out.  I am very curious about it too.
    
    I like the show persians alot, and someday hope to have an odd-eyed
    white that I can show along with my Birmans.
    
    Jo

    i like them too, but not as my preference of cat....
    
    as for the peke-face, the nose is practically non-existant, and
    i believe, should lie behind an imaginary line from the cats forehead
    to mouth...a large "break".  what i was wondering is, if regular
    faced persians are showable--what nose is too long, what nose
    isn't...ect.
    
    thanks anyway, jo!  hope the kittens are doing well.  :)
    
                                                             ---kim

    Both types that I mentioned are showable, and both have a extremely
    short nose with a break.  There should be straight line from forehead
    to chin, and I have had a persian breeder tell me that the nose
    should be centered on the face, as much face above the nose as there
    is below it.  This gives the face a very rounded, balanced look.
    
    I still think that the difference between peke and regular is in
    the bone structure and is something that wouldn't be noticeable
    to novices like us unless someone showed us how to feel the bones
    for it.
    
    But, I could be totally off base with this one.
    
    I am anxiously awaiting hearing from Cin on this one.
    
    Jo

    Also, since you put break in quotes....I have had the word break
    defined to me as a complete change in direction.  This meaning that
    the forehead comes down and does not dip or swoop up to the nose,
    but rather dead-ends at the nose.
    
    This is another thing that I hope Cin can clarify.
    
    Jo
    
             
            
            

    Okay, here I am...
    
    Jo, your right, there are actually two types of persians, the regular
    persians, and the peke faced.  Peke faced persians are only acceptable
    in the Red colors!!!  The peke faced persians do have a different
    bone structure in the head, but I honestly don't know much about
    them, and I have never seen one.  
    
    Most people refer to the current persian style of an almost
    non-existent nose as a peke faced persian, when actually, the breeders
    refer to them as "pigs".  Both "pigs" and the sweeter faced persians
    are showable, however, judges seem to prefer nicely balanced "pigs"
    to nicely balanced "regular" persians.  Unfortunately, when a breeder
    gets the "pig" look, in the face, the cat is often lacking in one
    or several other areas.  It is very difficult to get a balance "pig"
    style cat that doesn't have a crooked jaw, or no forehead, or such
    things.  I think that is why the judges really appreciate a nice
    one.  
    
    A nice sweet faced persian will also do very well in the shows if
    they have a well defined break, short nose and large eyes, but most
    important, is the balance of the cat.  My rule of thumb for the
    nose length, is that the nose should be no longer than it is wide.
    It should look like a square, or shorter.  The nose should line
    up with the forehead and chin, giving a flat profile.  My test is
    usually to put my finger on the front of the cats face, and I should
    be able to feel more than just the front of the nose.
    
    If your looking for a less extreme look, the silver and golden persians
    are much less extreme and still offer that sweeter look.
    
    I'll be back, gotta do some real work.
    
    cin
    

    I'm wondering, (I could have understood things wrong) why do judges
    prefer the peke-faced cats, since what I've heard peke-faced cats often
    have trouble breathing. 
    
    Stuppid question maybe???
    
    Loes, Candy and Spooky                    
    
    

    Okay, lets try this again!
    
    Peke-faced cats are a specific class in the persian breed.  
    
    The very extreme flat faced cats your refering to are not "peke-faced"
    persians.  
    
    Contrary to what you may have heard, I have less breathing trouble
    with my very extreme cats, than with the less extreme ones.  The
    main reason is that with the very extreme "pigs" the nose break
    is actually above the eyes, rather than right between the eyes as
    on the sweet faced persians.  Because the break is above the eyes
    it doesn't deform the tear ducts as can sometimes happen with the
    persians with the lower nose breaks.  I think the judges recognize
    that the more extreme, high nosed persians (the ones that look like
    the nose is right between the eyes) are actually much healthier
    than some of the others.  
    
    Besides, judges only put up (in finals) what the breeders want to
    see.  The breeders want these high nosed cats because they really
    are less work and (at least to me) appear to be stronger and healthier.
    
    cin
    

    Cin, thanks for the info.  Someday I hope to have an odd eyed white
    show Persian, so I spend some time talking with Persian breeders.
           
    They had told me that Peke face usually comes in Red, but that is
    one of the things that I had forgotten.  Is that a color linked
    gene then, seems it would be?
    
    Just to be sure that I understand, Persian breeders call the "regular"
    faced extreme Persians by the descriptive name of "pig", and they
    call the Peke faced Persians "pekes".
    
    My memory isn't good, but I think I remember a breeder telling me
    that the peke faced persians have a different bone structure on
    their foreheads and it had something to do with how the skull is
    formed.  Perhaps they are refering to the concave indention in the
    skull where the nose is?  I can't recall as it has been months since
    the conversation took place.
    
    Since I show Birmans and usually am the only other long-haired breed
    in the show, I usually sit in the ring and watch the judges judge
    the persians.  I have alot of respect for those breeders who have
    taken on the task of raising such a difficult breed.  There are
    a lot of variations among different lines, and those coats!!  The
    care that goes into keeping up those coats is incredible.
    
    I am always interested in learning more about Persians so anything
    else that you want to share with us will be appreciated.
    
    Jo

    I just wanted to mention a statement made by the breeder that Ming
    came from. All the cats she uses in her breeding are "sweet" faced,
    however the "In look" is now the pig face, so she had just bought a
    pig face queen for breeding. I personally do not care for the pig
    face look. Ming's face would melt granite. Her face is very round
    and her eyes so big and blue, and her nose just right.
    
    I should mention Ming is a Himalayian, seal point.
    
    The vet told me the pig face ones "seem" to have weepie eyes more
    than the other ones. 
    
    I agree with Kim, persians/himmies do have a lot of hair. I guess you
    just have to really love them to keep up with the grooming, and then
    it's no problem but a joy.
    
    Barbara

    Persians are beginning to grow on me as well; however, like Barbara,
    I love the sweet-faced look.  Chinchillas are my all-time favorite.
    How I would love to own one but I understand their coats need a
    lot of care.
    
    Holly Taylor - are you out there?!  You have one of Ruth Sutton's
    gorgeous shaded goldens.  Is Micki's coat difficult to keep up?
    (Love Ruth's kitties!).
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    re:40
    
    Do you mean Ruth LeClaire ?  Suttonian Cattery - yes, you are
    very very right!  Ruthie's cats are beautiful - her shaded
    silvers are the sweetest babies with those eyes!!!  Pretty
    pretty pretty!

    Thanks, Elaine!  At least I got her TOWN right (Sutton, MA).  I
    have her business card in my purse and it is Ruth LeClaire.
    
    I love her cats!  Saw her at the Concord show with both Shaded Silvers
    and Chinchillas.  She loved showing them off and is very friendly
    and free with information.  Personally, I love the Chinchillas because
    they are lighter than the shaded silvers (according to Ruth).
    
    You can't believe how many times I have pondered booting out my
    fiance in exchange for a few more cats :^) !!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Aren't they something else - I find myself just standing staring
    at them - I love their eye color!  Real beautiful babies!
    
    E.T.

    Jo,
    
    Haven't you ever watched the Exotic Shorthairs....one of the other
    Longhaired Cats in CFA!!!
    
    cin...whose shorthair is a longhair sometimes!
    

    Cin, I would watch them if anyone would show them!!!!!
    
    Maybe you should hit a show out here soon.  I get tired of being
    the only non-persian in the longhair class.
    
    Actually, there was an exotic in the kitten class two weeks ago.
    
    Jo

    Gee, Jo, the last CFA show here that I went to, Plain & Fancy in
    Boston has 6 Exotics.  
    
    It was neat, since I took best of breed in 4 rings and 2nd in the
    other 2.  Stripees even made 3 finals scoring 66 grand points in
    the one show.
    
    cin...who may finally have her first CFA Grand!
    

    Cin, my goodness, 66 points in one show is terrific.  Sounds like
    you will have your CFA grand real soon.  If you can't find any shows
    out there, come out here.  We have shows all summer long.
    
    There aren't many people showing exotics right now.  One of the
    CFA judges, Bob Salisbury, lives in L.A. and shows some, but he
    is usually judging, and the rules say that a cat of his own breeding
    cannot be present at a show he is judging.
    
    Maybe the new season will bring a new crop of exotics.  Oh, by the
    way, the exotic kitten was a bluepoint!  Incredible type on him.
    I have only seen one other pointed exotic, and he wasn't very typey.
    This woman has obviously been working long and hard to get him.
    
    Jo

    There is a picture of a flame point exotic in the May issue of Cat
    Fancy.  Apart from Cin saying it had the wrong color eyes, I was
    very impressed!
    
    My neighbor has a cream tabby exotic from Cin's breeding and he
    is the neatest cat!  She fell in love with him at the CFF show in
    Framingham last September and we had to drive a 1/2 hour home right
    in the middle of the show to convince her husband to let her buy
    him.  He has not regreted his decision for a minute!
    
    Stripees is my favorite, though.
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    
    P.S.  Cin, will you be breeding the pointed variety soon?
    

    What's an exotic?
    

    An Exotic is a Persian in it's underwear!  (They are actually a
    short coated Persian, but I like the other description better)
    
    They look exactly like a Persian but without the coat to take care
    of. In CFA, they still compete in the longhair class (even though
    they aren't) because their body type is exactly (?) like a Persian's.
    
    They are really cute, look like teddy bears to me.
    
    Jo
    
    

    Jo,
    
    I LOVE your description of an Exotic!!!  I usually tell people it's
    the Lazy-Person's Persian....a Persian cat without the frosting!!!
    
    I have been considering breeding the pointed variety, but it would
    take at least two generations to even produce a pointed kitten,
    then probably many more generations to produce a nice one.  It's
    even worse than working with exotics and persians, because now,
    instead of just trying to get the shorthair on the kittens, were
    also trying to get the pointed gene....double trouble!!!   I've
    talked with Nancy Sullivan (Sultan's) about the possibility of using
    one of her himmy's for  a stud service.  
    
    Jo, have you seen Sultan's Stuffed Animal???  Gorgous Flame point
    himalayan persian.  The pointed exotic that you saw, did it have
    blue eyes...the one in the Cat Fancy article had copper eyes, but
    other than that, it was really beautiful.
    
    If anyone wants to see Exotics, your welcome to come and visit my
    crowd....just drop me a note, I live in Fitchburg MA.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    HAHAHAHA!!  I love that underwear one!  I keep telling Chauncey that
    under all that fur, he looks just like Julie!
    
    Chauncey is one of those 'really pushed in faces with his nose between
    his eyes' (I hate the term pig faced...have you seen that adorable
    face?) Himalayans, and he's got the watery, tearstained eyes that go
    with it.  For a pet I'd take Honey's sweet face anyday!!
    
    Barbara, I think your Ming and her gorgeous son have the best faces
    around!
    
    Mary

    Oh, yes, Mary, I agree!  Ming is such a doll!!!  I almost smuggled
    her out the door with me when visiting Barbara a few weeks ago.
    
    She is very loveable too, when you pick her up and hold her, she'd
    lay there for hours!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    re: 50
    
    Jo, that's the best one ever!  Wait until I see Stripees - I wonder
    if he wears boxer shorts with kitties or hearts on them??

    Elaine,
    
    His boxers have stripes on them!!!  ;-)
    
    

    I almost choked on my coffee when I read that one, Cin.
    Silly me - however could I have thought that my baby boy
    would have anything but stripes on his shorts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Does he have striped stud pants also??????
    Excuse me while I mop up the tears dripping from my eyes.
    What size stud pants is he into?

    Cin, I thought you might like my description!  
    
    The pointed exotic had incredible eye color!  He made most of the
    finals, and the lady showing him was really nice.  The kitten's
    name was Plata Kits Jag's Encore and he was bred  and owned by 
    Ana Michelson.
    
    I would love to see your exotics, maybe we could meet up at a show
    next winter!
    
    Jo

    Hey, Jo, have you been peekin under stripees tail??  ;-)
    
    I can't wait till we can get to a show together....maybe we can
    meet someplace inbetween...maybe Ohio or thereabouts....
    
    Pennie, you game???
    
    cin
    

    Stripees may be in for a surprise this weekend!!!!!!!!!!
    
    What size you say, EXTRA LARGE !!

    Why do I have a feeling that I'm going to be embarrassed!!!!!
    
    

    Nooooooooooooooo - embarrassed, you say????????????????
    Would Auntie Elaine do ANYTHING to embarrass you or baby
    boy???   Naw, not I said the rabbit !!  Remember, it's 
    the last show of the season !!!
    
    Are we having fun yet???  We're gonna !!
    
    E.T.

    Does Stripees really "do" stud pants?  Kalliste does!  He struts
    around in those pants like he is so proud that he *has* to wear
    them.
    
    My girlfriend in L.A. made them for him and they are adorable. 
    He just got a new pair in the mail (he outgrew the others :^}).
    Jasmine (my friends queen) musta told Lorrie that he was "hanging
    out" of his other pair when she was here for breeding.
    
    About meeting in Ohio...why don't you plan on doing the Medina show
    at the end of August.  Only problem, you will definitely feel like
    the minority breed in the longhair class, last year saw 99 Birmans
    at this show!  It is a big show, 450 cats is the limit, and they
    filled the last two years in a row.  I am a member of the club and
    usually get to Medina on Wednesday before the show to help tie up
    the loose ends.
    
    Jo

    okie, let's see if i have this straight...a sweet faced persian
    is one with a nose (albeit short, or square) while a pig is the
    extreme (what, to me, looks like a pekingnese in the wrong species)
    nose with the non-existant bridge?  i, too, would take a sweet faced
    then (i'm sorry, i guess i like cats with noses)....
    
    it was said the the extreme faced persian is not a peke-face?  when
    i saw the pic of what was said to be a peke face persian, it looked
    like the extreme faced type--the others in the book had a nose.
    
    anyway, thankss...still not quite clear and i guess i like to know
    enough to talk intelligently--but you never know till you ask.
    
                                                            ---kim

    Extreme Persians are an acquired taste, kinda like Caviar and
    Champagne.
    
    And yes, stud pants keep them from doing *alot* of things. 
    
    Funniest thing was when Kalliste started outgrowing his first pair.
    The tail whole was a mite too big, and he was hanging out, if you
    know what I mean.  Not much point in wearing them in that case.
    
    That is when Kalliste was nicknamed "buds".
    
    Jo

    re: .58
    
    Am I game??? ARE YOU KIDDING???
    
    With this chartered airplane "in the mail" (um, Jo, that *was*
    airmail, right?), I'll go anywhere...anytime.  Especially after
    30 July when Willow and Hopey turn into cats.
    
    	P  "Have car; will travel"

    Jo,
    
    Stripees doesn't really wear stud pants.  He hasn't sprayed yet,
    and I'm hoping that since he's the "upstairs" cat, that he won't.
    He's an extremely clean cat, of course, he's only 10 months old!!
    
    Elaine, Stripees is still "red"!!!!!
    
    cin
    

    re: .63  Peke-faced
    
    Kim,
    
    The peke-faced persian is also a very extreme looking cat, but like
    Jo said, the bone structure in the head is different.  My general
    feeling is that at some point someone used a peke-faced persian
    with a "standard" persian, and that's how we began seeing pigs.
    Of course, that's just my theory, I don't know for sure.  
    
    So, there are two types of persians that will have that very extreme,
    pekenese style face, and those will be your peke-faced persians
    (which is a division within the persian class), and the pigs which
    are not a class in themselves.  Pigs and the Sweet Faced persians
    which breeders usually call the "Open Look" compete together within
    the same color classes.  They are judged by the same standard. 
    Certain colors are more apt to be either Pigs or Open.  For example,
    Whites almost always have the Open Look, while Blacks are almost
    always Pigs.  I think that back when Pigs were being developed it
    was mostly the black persian breeders that were working with them.
    Now, pigs have crept into almost all the colors.  The judges seem
    to like the pig look.  It is more difficult to achieve the pig look
    with balance than it is with the open look persians.
    
    Jo, your absolutely right, the pig look grows on you.
    
    cin...who has both pig and open style persians and would love to
    have a pig exotic (and I don't mean one that eats alot!!!)
    

    Well, folks, Cin is right - Stripees does NOT wear stud pants, BUTTTTT
    
    He does wear white boxer shorts with red trim around the legs, and
    red "STRIPES" on them.  They were designed especially for Stripees,
    and they are a limited edition.  He was photographed in his new
    shorts at the Cranston Rhode Island show this past weekend - I
    am sending this roll of film off to be developed within the next
    few days (after I stop being tired !!).  Anyone wishing to view
    this handsome furface in his designer boxer shorts, let me know,
    I'm sure we can work something out.
    
    Actually, Stripees is quite the GUY, size 0 to 8 months was a
    "little" snug on his many bod !!  He also has a Mickey Mouse
    T-shirt to go with his striped boxer shorts!  He is the Cat's
    Meow with his new outfit !!  The first time I put his shorts
    on, he had them on in about one nanosecond - he would really
    rather spend his time natural!!
    
    E.T.
    

    I spoke with Vicky Dickerson at the show this weekend.  Vicky is
    the breeder of CFA's Kitten of the Year (Persian, of course, I think
    the cat's name was GRC Windborne California Dreamin") last year 
    and is a CFA longhair judge.  She told me that the Peke faced is 
    related to color, and is usually red (I don't remember if she said 
    always red, or not).
    
    She said the difference is in the skull shape.  The peke faced persian
    has "fontinelles" or ridges in the skull, above the nose and eyes.
    She said you can feel the difference between the pekes and the regular
    persians since the regular persians have to have a smooth skull.
    
    She also said that CFA judge, Kim Everett, wrote an extensive article
    on Peke faced Persians for the 1980 CFA Yearbook, if any one wishes
    to learn more about it.
                                                          
    Jo
    
    PS - there was one exotic kitten and 7(!) exotic adults at the show
    this weekend.  Somebody must have heard my complaints about being
    the only non-persian in the longhair class!
    

    Thanks Jo,
    I'll have to pull out my 1980 yearbook, now I'm curious and would
    like to be able to answer questions about the peke faced persians
    in the future.  In CFF, the ONLY color that Peke-faced persians
    are accepted in are Red and possibly Red Tabby.  Other colors would
    have to be shown as AOV's (all other varieties).
    
    cin
    

    re: 68
    
    Elaine,
    
    Stripees is consulting his lawyer at this very moment!!!  He says
    that if you send those pictures out, he's going to get you for
    defamation of character!!! 
    
    He was not impressed by his new outfit, but everyone else got a
    kick out of it!!!
    
    cin...who knew something was up!
    

    My baby boy would not do that to his Auntie - after I dressed him,
    he hugged & kissed me, and said, "Thank You, Auntie, for my new
    designer outfit."
    
    Gee, I haven't had any requests for pictures yet, with the exception
    of Liz Bickford, who is going to do the CFF Yearbook again next
    year - she thought that picture would take a full page - I agreed!!
    
    Boy, does he have a BIG tail!
    
    Auntie Elaine

    I'll have to have Stripees lawyer contact Liz Bickford before she
    gets any ideas!!!
    
    

    Tooooooooooooo late - you know that grin Liz has - she already has
    the caption ready and typeset for the full 8 1/2  x  11 (color)
    page !!  She wants to make sure the red stripes on the shorts
    show up, and the hole for his tail!! Gee, I wonder if I got
    your face in the picture???

    Cin, you jogged my memory about the colors of peke faced persians.
    Vicky said they are only allowed in red and red tabby in CFA.
    
    Boy, sounds like you guys had a good show!! Poor Stripees, has he
    a shred of dignity left????
    
    Jo

    You guys crack me up!!  I'll bet we'll see Stripees as the centerfold
    of PlayCat magazine.
    
    And, Elaine, Stripees wants you to know...that wasn't his tail........
    
    Mary

    re:76
    
    Mary, Mary, Mary !!!
    
    You will never know where that picture will end up!!!  
    
    Stripees may think it wasn't his tail, but.................
    Actually, the tail hole wasn't quite big enough!  I should have
    made it a tensy weensy bit larger - he has a big tail!!!
    
    Auntie Elaine

    I think Stripees is definite "catmopolitan" material!
      Nancy DC
    

    re: 79
    
    Well, now there's a GREAT idea!  Waddaya think, Cin??????
    
    Auntie E.