Conference misery::feline_v1

    First, what is there outside that she needs??  Ya, sure, she'd love
    to explore and catch rodents and birds, but does she need that???
    I live on a fairly busy street and I don't ever want to find my
    guys underneath someone's tires, or chewed up by some dog, or in
    a fight with some mean old tom cat.  Just my opinion...
    
    This topic inside vs. outside is very much a matter of personal
    opinion and preference and is something you must decide and live
    with.  It is also the topic for heated discussions elsewhere in
    this notesfile.  I feel that you must do what *you* think is right
    for you and your kitten.  If your instincts tell you that it's not
    safe for her outside, then keep her in and fill her days with climbing
    posts and catnip mice.  It will save you a fortune in vet bills!!
    
    Mary (the Mom of two indoor city kitties)

    .1 brings up some good points. I'd like to add some personal
    experiances to that.
    
    I had an outdoor cat when I was living in Maryland, and I was
    heartbroken when he didn't come back one day. Once we took him to
    the vet because he had been chomped on by a rather large dog. Not
    to mention the fleas, ticks, and worms that will make their way
    into your house when you let him/her back in.
    
    To me, it's just not worth letting my cats outdoors. I have three
    purebread cats now, but the cat I lost was a "mutt". I really don't
    think there is a difference what type of cat you are talking about.
    In any event, if you do let your cat outdoors, PLEASE have him/her
    altered first. If he's a he, he won't wander quite as far, and
    there will be one or two or more less unwanted litters about.
    
    Again, it's a personal decision. Hope you come to an agreement you
    can all live with.
    
    Bryan

    Depends on how busy the street is.  If you are in a "city" rather
    than a "town", on a busy street, then I would suggest not letting
    your cat out.  However, if you live on a quiet street, in a residential
    neighborhood, and you want to let her out, then go ahead.
    
    There are many people in this file who would say to keep a cat in
    no matter where you live.  If your general belief is like theirs,
    then just tell your roommate no.  If you general belief is to let
    a cat out when there isn't so much danger, then you may want to
    address your question to those who let their cats outside.
    
    Good luck.    
                           Carol

    I am a firm believer in keeping cats indoors--they live MUCH longer.
    But, as has been said, it is up to the person and their conscience.
    However, your statement about keeping the kitten indoors and THEN
    allowing her to go out when she is "older and more mellow" really
    disturbs me.  You have to be consistant--if you want to let her
    out later, then get her used to the outdoors, its sounds, scents,
    etc. NOW.  Take her out on a lead, or go out with her.  If she is
    strictly indoor, and you let her out when she's grown, she will
    have no "street smarts", and most probably bolt at all the unfamiliar
    noises out there.  
    
    I say this from experience.  My Billie was a stray I found on the
    street when she was a kitten.  I've  had her for 11 years now, and
    she has been indoor all that time except for one summer when she
    was about 6.  I felt bad for her--looking outside all the time,
    so I would go outside with her every few days.  She's be fine until
    she heard a car, or a loud noise, or a dog, and then she'd go berserk.
    She would dart in panic;  clearly not seeing where she was going.
    One time she got away from me, and ran right out in front of a car.
    Luckily for all of us, the car jammed on the brakes, and I got her
    in time.  In the 6 years she had been  inside, I think she lost
    any street sense she had had when she was a kitten.
    
    Sorry to run on like this, but PLEASE remember that kittens learn
    just like people do.  If you had never heard heavy metal music until
    you were 30 and someone  cranked it up under your bedroom window,
    wouldn't you be a bit panicked?   
    
    Good luck with your new "baby",
    
    Jane
    
    

    Thanks for all the support and advice I received!  Its still a hard
    decision since all of the responses were for keeping her a housecat.
    Our biggest concern is the smell our house has from the litter box.
    Its right in the kitchen so its not an attractive sight or smell.
    I'm getting another kitten in soon so she'll have someone to play
    with, hopefully she won't be so bored anymore and I won't feel so
    guilty when she sits and stares out the window. I'll let you know
    what the verdict is.
    
    Thanks again,
    Diane
    

    If there isn't a more private place for the litterbox, you might
    want to look into the various covered boxes - everything from a
    plastic hood with a charcoal filter and a fan, down to a cardboard
    "privacy screen". That, plus keeping the box clean, should help
    to reduce odor and remove the unappetizing view. (Do be careful
    where you put the box. If a kitten is doing his business inside
    and somebody should happen to trip over it, the poor cat may have
    a complex for life!)
    
    Regarding in vs. out: I lived half a block from Mass. Ave. in Arlington
    for a couple of years, and my cats used to escape from the screened-in
    porch (on the second floor!), jump onto the garage, and roam at
    will. They were never injured, but every time one of them was a
    bit late coming home I went through agonies. So, it is possible
    for cats to have enough street smarts to survive outdoors in a city,
    but it's a big risk, and you'll pay for their freedom in worry lines
    even if they don't pay with their lives...
    
    -b

    I know this has nothing to do with letting your cat out - but I
    have noticed other people with indoor cats don't know how to care
    for a litter box.  My house does not smell one bit like cats live
    there, and I have two (one that eats like a pig, therefore is always
    in the litter box).
    
    1.  When I catsit, I notice that people do not fill the litter box
        with litter.  They just put enough to cover the bottom (sometimes
        not even that much) and only clean out the mess when they empty
        the litter box to put new litter in.  The way we care for ours
        is, we fill (use the whole bag of Littergreen) the litter box.
        When the cat has a bowel movement, we (as soon as possible)
        take that out of the box and flush it down the toilet.  This
        prevents an oder and also keeps the cat clean (so it doesn't
        step in it later).
    
    2.  When we "clean" the litter box, we empty the dirty litter into
        a grocery bag, put that in a trash liner and stick it out in
        the trash.  Now, if you don't clean the actual box out with
        some sort of soap and hot water, you are defeating the purpose
        of emptying it.  Also, a cat can get certain diseases from an
    	unclean box (meaning disinfecting it when you clean it).  If
    	you use disinfectant - I use lysol - you have to make sure to
    	rinse the box out real good cuz that can hurt your cat too.
     	Then fill the box with a new bag of litter.  I do this twice
    	a week - it stays pretty neat if I clean it really good.  My
    	babies like it too.  They can tell (and I can tell) when it's
    	time to change cuz they tiptoe into it and get right out real
    	fast.
    
    My husband catsat and the litter box actually had green scum at
    the bottom from not being washed after emptying.  I feel sorry for
    the poor cats - they are very clean animals and having to go in
    that - it's too bad.
    
    Well, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression - it's just that
    when I explained this to all the friends I catsat for - they went
    "oh, I didnt realize that".  So - if you want a nice smelling house
    and happy cats, that's the way I do it.
    
    Good luck.
    

    Hi There,
    
    I may be the only proponent of outdoors here.  I have lived in   
    
    Cambridge
    Dorchester
    Somerville
    with my cat who is now eleven.
    
    In every one of these places she went out.  She is very smart. 
    The more urban the area, the closer to the house she remained.
    
    In Cambridge, where the apartment was right on the street, she
    really only went out when I did (hanging out on the steps
    together).
    
    I believe strongly that cats should go outside, even in limited
    amounts.  How would YOU like to never see the sun??
    
    I see no reason your kitten shouldn't go out, even if only 
    on a supervised basis.  Of course, this depends on her personality;
    if she is the wild type who takes off maybe it wouldn't work out.
    
    Good luck!     
    
    Diane St. Onge
    
    
    p.s.  my boyfriend used to live on Mass. Ave. in Arlington,
          MA.  The apt. was right on the sidewalk with no yard at
          all in front.  His two cats went out all the time during
    	  the two years he lived there and they never had a problem.  
          I think that in some ways a busy city street is safer than
          a country street with intermittent traffic.  A cat knows 
    	  where he stands with a busy street (i.e. not in it!!) 
    
          
          

    We all know of outdoor cats who lived to ripe old ages.  It
    would be misguided to use them to base your decision on.
    Statistics show that indoor cats live longer than outdoor
    cats.  Not all of them, it's true.  But the 'average' lifespan
    for an outdoor cat is ~8 years.  It's significantly longer
    for indoor cats.  You take a look at the risks and probabilities
    and make your decision.
    
    re .5 
    >Our biggest concern is the smell the house has from the litter
    >box.
    
    Follow the advice of .7 and your concerns will be laid to rest.
    I have 3 litterboxes, 2 are JUMBO.  My house does not smell.  A
    smelly box is a dirty box.  Don't try to cover it up with deodor-
    ants, clean it...regularly...frequently, and you won't have any
    odor problems.   With regards to kitchen location, how about re-
    locating it to the bathroom, or a spare room?  
    
    Donna

    Unfortunately, our apt. is VERY small. The kitchen is the biggest
    room in the house.  Our bathroom is much too small to put a litter
    box in.  I agree with the litterbox hygiene thats been mentioned.
    Its not cleaned frequently enough.  
    
    Thanks a lot for the info.
    
    Diane
                 

    I agree with .7 about removing solids immediately.  I change the
    litter once a week instead of twice, and use liners (Trouble is
    totally declawed) so don't have to disinfect quite as often.  So
    far I have had no problem with "cat smell" at all.  Oh yes, I also
    don't use a whole bag of litter at a time only because Trouble likes
    to rake it on the floor and track it all over the house.  
    
    Now for a question.  Has anybody tried those litter boxes with the
    rim that is supposed to keep litter in?  I very much doubt Trouble
    would use the kind that is totally covered, but I am tired of cleaning
    litter from *everywhere*.  Any opinions or pointers to a more
    appropriate note are appreciated.  
    
    Bernice
    

    Re .7:
    
    >                                                       ...  If
    >	you use disinfectant - I use lysol - you have to make sure to
    >	rinse the box out real good cuz that can hurt your cat too.
    
    You _bet_ Lysol can hurt your cat!  Check with your vet on an
    alternative.
    
    My solution: litter pan liners. Works well for my two.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

  After washing with soap and water, rinsing well, and then I sprinkle 
baking soda on the bottom of the litter box -- no smell.

		M

    For cleaning purposes, both boxes, floors in my kitty room, etc.
    I use Clorox and Water.
    
    cin
    

    I also agrre that your baby should be an inside kitty if that is
    what you are comfortable with....are you her mother??.. and is your
    roommate her aunt.. ??.. mother always knows best.. i also use
    use kitty pan liners and i line the bottom of the pan wirth baking
    soda as well as the bottom of the liner.. pookie has a covered 
    litterbox.. and laso please becareful with chemicals.. also
    with "scented litters.. my pookie who is of persian descent
    had a reaction to scented litter.. her personal physican
    dr clogh reccomended just plain old unscented litter.. pookie got
    a terrible eye infection due to dust from the other one.. anyway
    as long as you celan the box throughly there is no need for scented
    litter.. welcome to your new baby..
    regards
    kate.. pookies mom

Re: .11

We use one of those snap on rims to keep the litter in.  One of my 3 kids
(Xerox, we call him Rocky though) likes to make a production of the 
"litter box thing".  He was always getting it everywhere.  When we first 
bought the new box, which came with the box and snap on rim (for easier cleaning
I guess), right after he used it the rim went flying along with the kitty 
litter, all over the place!  So what we did was buy some velcro adhesive, 
glued it to the rim on each end and both ends of the box.  It really made a big 
difference, but I don't think Rocky enjoys the routine as much.
    
Kathi

    Talk about a production....Honey goes thru a routine that drives
    me up a wall.  First, he has to check out where an appropriate place
    to dig a hole is (of course, he only goes pee-pee in a certain corner).
    Then, when the best spot is chosen, he digs a hole to China, and
    then dumps on top of the mountain of litter he created.  Dumb....
    Then, he steps onto the rim of the box, checks out the damage he's
    done, and proceeds to scratch the wall, the outer sides of the box,
    the floor, and anywhere else he can reach EXCEPT inside the box!
    This ritual of wall and floor scratching can take several minutes.
    In fact, I know when the box needs to be changed by the length of
    time he spends scratching the wall.  It's incredible to watch him
    standing on the edge of the box, scratching the wall and then checking
    to see if it's doing any good.  Drives me crazy.....
    
    re: Lysol...my vet warned me not to use it anywhere near the box
    as one of the ingredients in it is particularly toxic to kitties.
    I use lots of soap and very hot water.
    
    Diane, you might look for a covered litterbox called a Booda-box.
    A friend has one of these and her boys seem to like it just fine.
    Don't let out-of-site lead to out-of-mind, though....covered boxes
    don't clean themselves (sounds like a good idea for an invention...).
    
    Mary
    

    The only thing a cat can get outside that it can't get easily inside
    is sick or dead.  Fleas are no fun to get rid of and some cats react
    very seriously to some flea dips.
    
    I found a covered litter box keeps the area free of litter.  Witch
    is not a bad digger but Sonny is.  The box gets scooped for solids
    every morning (sometimes in the evenings).  I put in 1 1/2 to 2
    inches of litter and stir it after scooping solids.  This way the
    litter can absorb the moisture and I don't have to change it more
    often than every week or two.
    
     

    I *HATE* to empty the box.  Ever since I quit smokeing and got back
    my sense of smell, I just cant stand it.  To make matters worse,
    you must clean the box with very hot water.  As the steam rises
    - well - so does my lunch!  Feeling as I do, I just had to find
    a solution.  I use one of those aluminum oven pans that was meant
    for one time use in cooking a turkey.  I put that on top of one
    of those disposable oven liners that is made of similar aluminum.
     I then skoop twice a day until the box gets a bit damp (doesn't
    take long in the summer!).  Then I take a ten foot pole and poke
    at the whole aluminum mess till it slides neatly into a trash bag.
    POOF problem gone!  Expensive??  Yes.  Worth it??  **YES**!!
    
    Marion
          

    An alternative to conventional litter is some stuff called "Better
    Way".  It has the consistency of fine white sand and when the kitty
    goes pee pee in the box the wet stuff balls up and makes a solid
    lump.  When you go to scoop out the solid stuff, the balled up wet
    stuff can be scooped out too.  It's a little more expensive (approx
    $8.00 for 10 pounds) but that 10 pounds will last you a couple of
    months if you follow the directions on the bag.  It tends to be
    tracked around more easily, but I'd definately rather sweep the
    floor a few extra times than smell the box.  It is also good for
    allergic kitties.  I guess all this stuff is just a matter of personal
    opinion, but I would think that it would be easier on the toepads
    to be walking on sand than those hard clumps of litter.  Also, it
    seems that altered kitties don't smell quite as strong as intact
    ones.  A cheaper alternative to a "filtered" litter box is to get
    a small Norelco air cleaner and plug it up next to the kitty box.
    Seems to work for Corkie and I (we smell too sometimes!).
    
    Pat (We moved to DLO)
    

    RE: .17
    
    Mary,
    
    Funny you should mention "self cleaning" covered boxes.  In last
    month's issue of Cat Fancy there was an ad for a maintainence free
    covered box.  If I remember correctly (remember this is a month
    ago), the dirty litter went to the bottom of the pan and was replaced
    with fresh.  Sounds good, *IF* it really works.  Somehow I wouldn't
    expect it to.  
    
    Bernice

    Nah, that's not what I'm looking for.  I want a box that can
    automatically empty, disinfect, and refill itself (and it would
    be nice if it took itself to the dumpster, too).
    
    And why is it that some cats (I won't mention Skyler Van Grayson
    or Chauncey or Olijah by name, of course) that *MUST* use the box
    the absolute instant is has been cleaned.  I swear that Skyler would
    come out of an irreversible coma at the sound of litter being poured
    into a clean box.  And Chauncey sits in the spot where the box usually
    is and waits for the clean stuff, then immediately gets in and somehow,
    from somewhere, manages a few drops of something.  Incredible....
    
    Mary

    Mine all do it too Mary!!!  You should see the waiting line once
    the new litter gets put in the box!!!  I've gotten in the habit
    of waiting, pooper scooper in hand, for the last one to finish!!
    
    :-)
    cin
    

	 That's how  I  get  the stool samples to take to the vet - just
     let  the  box  get to the brink of where the cats will tolerate it,
     and then clean it.  Instant stool sample!!!  

    
    Yeah, our cats do the same thing.  I think it might be a way of
    marking territory.
    
    Rita
    

    That is really funny, both mine do that too!!  Once they smell the
    nice clean litter - watch out!!
    
    By the way, I did check with my vet - it is okay to use lysol if
    you rinse, Rinse, RINSE with really HOT water.  After we rinse,
    we wipe the box so no water is left.  My two cats really go nuts
    when they smell the lysol (from the bathroom tub, of course) - they
    know their litterbox is clean.
    
    And they fight to see who gets their first.  Of course, Zildjian
    (the queen of the house) always wins.  Foolproof way to get a fresh
    stool to the vet.
    
    It's nice to know that most cats have the same habits.  Like Spunky,
    she will also dig her way to China (we always know at night just
    who is in the litterbox) and she scratches the walls, the sides
    of the litterbox - everywhere except the litter.  Oh well - at least
    their happy!!
    
    anna
    

    We seemed to have gotten off the original subject and onto litterbox
    problems but since we're there...When I get my new kitten, will
    she be able to use the same litter box as the other?  I really dont
    know how well she's going to take to this new kitten.  She's still
    a kitten herself (approx. a month and a half).  I dont want to have
    to get two litter boxes, if thats the case, I wont even bother getting
    another kitten. What do you think?
    

    No problem....I've had as many as 5 guys using my one box.  Of course,
    it had to be cleaned every 20 minutes, but they didn't seem to care
    about sharing.  Just as long as it's clean....
    
    Your baby is only 6 weeks old??  Good gravy, she should still be
    with her birth Mommy!!
    
    Mary

    You should have no problem with 2 new kitties!!  You are so lucky!
    I would love to have kittens running around the house!  (although
    Spunky acts like one often)
    
    Just keep the box clean - you should have no problem.
    
    anna
    

    I have five and they share 2 boxes; one upstairs and one downstairs.
    All of the cats go in both boxes. They just tend to go to the nearest
    box. The only time I've had truble is if the box is less than clean.
    
    Deb

    
    It may have more to do with individual personalities.  Sulkitt,
    a *truly* exotic silver aby/pewter mau cross, was *given* to me
    (that's right, fer free) because she was a kitten killer.  No kidding,
    she would see a kitten and go CRAZY, just dive bomb the poor little
    guys.  Needless to say, the breeder I took her from was NOT pleased
    with her behavior.  Five years later we have gotten to the point
    where this behavior doesn't exist.  So when we got Basil, our mackeral
    tabby kitten, he lived :-)  *However*, Sulkitt, when she thought
    we weren't looking, would stand on top of the covered litter box
    and whop him on the head when he tried to go in.  She's a smart kitty;
    she knew that if she could get him to break box training he'd get
    in biggo trouble.  We solved the problem; judicious use of a water
    pistol or a plant sprayer worked wonders on our occasionally
    ill-behaved beauty.  Basil can use the box whenever he wants to
    now.
    
    Bottom line - you should be able to have just one literbox, but
    watch 'em closely for a while.
    
    Rita
    
    
        

    Sorry Mary, my mistake.  I meant that its been 6 weeks that we've
    had her so she is actually 12 weeks old. She's the cutest thing.
    She's a gray tiger shorthair.  I hate to leave her alone during
    the day thats why I want to get another one, so she'll have a playmate.
    She's fresh cause whenever my roommate and I are gone for a long
    time after work hours, she makes a mess of the kitchen - papers
    everywhere, etc.  Then at night when you're trying to sleep, she'll
    nose your hands cause she loves to be petted, or she'll lie down
    on my neck and go to sleep.  I wish they could stay kittens forever!
    

    Getting back to cleaning the litter box.  We got a jug of FON from
    our vet in Colorado.  FON is Feline Odor Neutralizer.  It's what
    they use in the office to disinfect the cages.  It is a little
    expensive, but boy does it work.  When we had 8 cats at one time,
    we had 2 litter boxes, one upstairs, one down.  They got scrapped
    2X a day, and baking soda was added; then they got changed every
    3rd day.  We never had any problems with odors.
    

    F.O.N. is available from Haddleigh at Cat Shows, or by calling Martha
    Krueger at 207-676-3309.  I'm not sure of any places that sell it
    locally.  
    
    Your right....GREAT stuff!!!
    
    cin
    

    Diane, I don't know if you have mentioned how much space you have
    outside, but one thing to consider is a small penned area that the
    cats could have outdoors.  This would give them the sun and occasional
    bugs to catch, with the freedom to go back indoors if attached to
    a kitty door or slightly open (but locked in place) window.  It
    would also keep them out of the way of cars and dogs.
    
                Carol

    If YOU don't mind, I would vote for keeping your kitties inside.
    Having read all about fleas and cars running over cats, and poisons
    and dogs and racoons and squirrels... I would rather keep mine inside.
    They seem to have just as much fun chasing the ants and flys as
    they would bigger things.
    
    About litterbox smell.  No-one mentioned food.  The amount and type
    of food the kitty eats will have effect on the smell.  Some of the
    more expensive (Hills, Science diet, Tamy Ami to mention a few)
    require the kitty to eat less so there is less in the box, and they
    don't tend to smell as offensive.  (A can of some of the grocery
    store brands has an oder the makes ME ill - surprised cats will
    eat it!)
    
    Good Luck with kitties
    Sally
    

    RE < Note 648.20 by DPDMAI::BALL > :

>    An alternative to conventional litter is some stuff called "Better
>    Way".  It has the consistency of fine white sand and when the kitty
>    goes pee pee in the box the wet stuff balls up and makes a solid
>    lump.  When you go to scoop out the solid stuff, the balled up wet
>    stuff can be scooped out too.  It's a little more expensive (approx
>    $8.00 for 10 pounds) but that 10 pounds will last you a couple of
>    months if you follow the directions on the bag.  
	.
	.
	.    
>    Pat (We moved to DLO)
    
    Is this stuff available in New England (specifically, Boston area or
    southern New Hampshire)?  I see that DLO is in Dallas...

							-- Nina