Conference misery::feline_v1

    Before you panic (understandably), please remember that there are lots
    of cats who have been directly exposed to Felv and not contracted the
    disease.  There is definitely an incubation period of about 3 months,
    so if you are going to have your kittens retested, it might be a good
    idea to wait a bit.  Or you can test them now and retest in three to
    six months.  Exposure usually results in one of the there scenarios:
    
    1)  the cat develops the virus
    2)  the cat sloughs off the virus
    3)  the cat becomes a carrier of the virus
    
    The only way the cat can pass on the virus as far as I know is if it
    has an active infection.  A carrier can become ill later on in life. 
    This might be what happened with Missy.  She carried the virus and in
    her advancing years developed it.
    
    Just wait, watch, and hope, and let us know what happens!
    
    Prayers,
    Roberta
    

    Hi Roberta,
    
    Thanks for the encouragement.  I certainly do need it.  I called my vet
    again, but of course he is in surgery and won't be out till at least
    noon.  I thought as much (about waiting three months to have them
    tested again).  I figured that maybe you needed time to see if the
    virus developed (maybe more white blood cells would show up or
    something?).  Anyway, on the down side, I have the feeling that Missy
    has been in a full blown state for quite some time now.  I was living
    there for a year and for the past half year I noticed that at times her
    head would twitch uncontrollably or she would limp for no reason or
    become listless or whiny.  I suggested that Ellen bring her to the vet
    over and over....in fact, I offered to pay for the visits myself, but
    she always brushed my comments off.  It used to be very irritating, but
    as Missy was not my cat, I could not do anything about it.  I think
    that when I brought my kittens into the house, Missy was already dying.
    She had lost almost five pounds between Christmas and June.  I
    attributed it to old age, but now I think otherwise.  So it is possible
    that my kittens are in danger.  However, there is not much I can do but
    sit and wait.
    
    I will keep you posted as to what goes on.  In a way I blame myself.  I
    knew Missy was an outdoor cat.  Even if she tested negative, there was
    always the chance that in her wanderings she would eventually pick
    SOMETHING up....I should have just kept my kittens in the bedroom
    forever!  But it is all spilt milk, so I can only hope for the best.
    
    Thanks again for your support....  I really need it....I'm not the best
    when it comes to being optimistic -- I hate getting my hopes up only to
    have them dashed (smile).
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    Please don't blame yourself. In talking to you & knowing how you are w/
    your babies, I know that you did everything you really could in order
    to make sure that Missy wouldn't be a threat to your kittens' health.
    It sounds to me like Ellen wasn't straight forward w/ you & she's the
    one to blame. I'm sure she's going thru a tuff time w/ her cat, but
    all of this could have been avoided if SHE HAD TAKEN BETTER CARE OF HER
    CAT!!!!! As unfeeling as it seems, I'd charge HER for all of the
    re-testing & any other expenses this causes you to have!!! you're not
    the one to blame, Nancy...you were LIED to!
    
    Bonnie

    Thanks Bonnie,
    
    You're such a DOLL!  (smile)  I had thought of charging Ellen for the
    retesting, since I probably go to one of the MOST expensive vets
    around.  They are wonderful, and I really like the place, but BOY, do
    they get you coming and going!  Anyway, to retest would cost me $22 per
    cat per visit and $18 per cat for the bloodwork.  However, since this
    girl is 24 and not really working (her mom got married and left her the
    house and is most likely letting her live there free), I don't hold out
    much hope of recouping my losses (arrgghhh!).  
    
    I wish my vet would call........I'm having a hard time concentrating on
    anything until I hear from her!  
    
    Nan
    
    P.S.  I'll try and visit you this week, Bon....I have some pics of the
    babies to show you...some are really cute.

    Nancy, I can understand your distress and anger, but I agree with 
    Roberta -- don't panic. I think your kittens have a reasonable chance 
    of not getting this disease.

    One thing in their favor is that the leukemia virus can not live for 
    very long outside the cat's body. It can live for only 2-3 minutes in 
    the air and 2-3 days in a moist environment other than living cells. 
    It sounds like the kittens had very limited exposure to Missy, her 
    food, water, and litter, so that increases their chances. Also, some 
    cats exposed to FELV are able to reject the virus.

    Three years ago one of my four indoor-only cats was diagnosed with 
    feline leukemia. All four cats had close contact with one another, 
    shared litter boxes, etc.  Only one had been vaccinated for fel. leuk.  
    Two of the three remaining cats (one was very old and was kept separated 
    from the others most of the time) were tested after I learned Fuzzy was
    positive, and again 3 months later; they were negative both times. 
    All my cats get fel. leuk shots now, and the two cats who lived with 
    the leukemic cat are still alive and well (the old cat's death was not
    related to fel. leuk.).

    There are lots of notes in here about feline leukemia, which you can
    find by doing a dir/keyword=felv. Some replies to note 2637 are about
    FELV positive and negative cats living together. 

    Good luck, we are hoping for the best for you and your little ones.

    Linda & the multitude

    Great news, Linda!  It IS only the food sharing that is concerning me. 
    No sooner would Missy leave her dish than my three would go racing over
    in an attempt to snarf up the remains!  Zuzu was even so bold as to try
    to chase Missy away from her own food dish, and would sometimes
    succeed!
    
    I would always try to make sure that Missy's food dish was off the
    floor (but after the kittens one day surprised me by jumping on the
    counter and overturning the food dish and eating the contents, I had to
    put it in the fridge to avoid their antics).  So as you can tell, I was
    not always successful.  In the month that the cats all interacted, I'd
    have to say that the kittens probably ate out of Missy's dish about 20
    times.......sometimes caught in the act, but sometimes not.
    
    But you DO give me hope, since some of yours were (like my Suki) not
    vaccinated at all against the virus.  I know that a kitten's immune
    system is not as good, but hope for the best.
    
    Thanks for all your valuable info, though.  That is what I am looking
    for, since my vet has not yet called.  I need to know what the chances
    are that they can contract it....I mean, a food dish IS a moist
    environment, so maybe it can live there for a day or so...enough time
    for curious kittens to find and eat the contaminated food.
    
    Nan

    I've had the same worries because my roommate still let his cat
    out without having her checked out completely.  I've been afraid
    that she would pass on something to the new kittens (almost 6 weeks
    old).  I know she has worms now and probably passed that on to the
    kittens.
    
    I hope everything turns out okay for your "kids", Anunziata. :-)
    
    B.

    Ahhh, you even know that I was named after my Grandmother!  (smile)
    I just talked to another vet in Marlboro who is just wonderful.  He
    said the new vaccines are between 95 and 99 percent effective, and
    feels that if my "kids" had even had their initial shots, they were
    probably pretty much protected, but he is going to test them all again
    this afternoon.  He said that if it has been two weeks since they were
    exposed to the other cat, there would be "antigens" present that could
    safely tell me whether or not Zuzu, Suki and Bear were safe.  I told
    him I'd be RIGHT THERE!  He said that we could also test them again in
    a few months if I would feel more at ease, but that he didn't think it
    would be necessary.  (he is also much cheaper than my other vet)
    
    Too bad about the worms...I hear that they can be a real "bear" to get
    rid of!  Mine haven't had those yet, though one of them came to me with
    Coccidia (sp?).  Trying to get her to swallow the medicine was sheer
    hell!  
    
    I will let you all know how things go today at the vet.  I just want to
    thank everyone for the support.  I really depend so much on this file
    to find the info I need to help me raise these guys, and everyone has
    always been so nice and supportive!
    
    Nan

    Nancy,
    
    $22 for the test and $18 for the bloodwork sounds like overcharge to
    me!  My vet asks $20 and that includes both the drawing of blood and the
    test (and she tests for fiv as well).
    
    I'm glad you are going to try a new vet.  Keep the faith and try not to
    let the situation eat away at you.
    
    
    

    Roberta, 
    
    I think that Nan meant that is was $22 for the office visit and $18 for
    the test for each cat.
    
    Jo

    I just tried calling Nancy to see how things went at the vet yesterday,
    but I got her answering machine. I hope everything went OK!!
    
    Bonnie

    Hi everyone,
    
    Before I let you know what happened, I wanted to let Jo know that YES,
    she is right.  I had to pay 22 per cat for the visit, PLUS the fee per
    cat for each blood test.  I went to the new vet yesterday to check them
    out and it cost me a total of $109 for all the cats to be tested.
    
    As it turned out, they were all NEGATIVE!!!!  Of course, I'm such a
    baby that I started to cry right then and there.  Everyone laughed! I
    was just so relieved.  I immediately took myself and "family" over to
    my mom and dad's to share the good news.  
    
    Then the bubble broke.  I got a call from my "regular" vet who told me
    that the test was probably inconclusive and that I should have waited a
    few months.  That they could still be infected but it is not showing up
    yet.  Another feliner had mentioned the three month wait, so perhaps I
    did jump the gun.
    
    On top of all that, later that evening I spoke with Missy's vet who
    told me that they are not sure WHAT Missy has....they think that it
    might be AIDS.  She has a severe mouth infection and is fading fast.
    A mouth infection --- just what I wanted to hear when my three were
    sneaking food out of her food dish on a regular basis.  The vet told me
    that if that was the case, then yes, my three have been exposed and
    that all I can do is wait and see what develops -- if anything.  She
    says that the luekemia vaccine is really only 65 percent effective,
    though the makers like to say it is 90 - 95 percent effective.  She
    told me there is a 30 - 35 percent chance the kittens will contract the
    virus (and that kittens and old cats are more likely to get it due to
    their underdeveloped or fading immune systems).  
    
    Of course, I cried all nite.  Then Stephen came home later from work
    and gave me a lecture....which I needed.  He told me, "Look at those
    kittens, will you please?  You really have to be more optimistic.  Here
    you are, already writing them off!  And there they are, playing
    touch-tag across the room!  Even if the worst happens, Nanc, you have
    to remember that they have a good life here.  We'll deal with it when
    and if they get sick.  So please stop crying and play with them
    instead!"  
    
    He was right of course and though I DO feel like I'm playing with them
    more (getting it all in now, just in case?) I am happier today.  After
    all, the tests WERE negative yesterday, and I will have them tested
    again in October, just before I have them spayed.  That will be the
    REAL test, I guess.
    
    Anyway, it has been hard.  You feel so helpless.....and there they are,
    so full of life!  It's like living with a time bomb.
    
    Please keep Suki and Marty Bear and Zuzu in  your prayers.  
    
    And thanks for all the help.
    
    Nan

    Nancy...hang in there!  Thank god for Stephen to snap you out of it.
    Your babies need you now.....and I know it's hard...but you have
    to put it out of your mind and have them retested in October.
    
    We will all pray for your little furfaces....please keep us posted.
    
    Sandy 

    Glad to hear the tests were negative.  As you said, continue to enjoy
    them and don't fear the worst.  Have them retested in three months and
    go from there.  Remember, they are negative now and that in itself is
    wonderful news!!
    
    I'd also like to point out that vets are human and each one will have
    different opinions on the same subjects.  Try to keep that in
    perspective when dealing with your situation.  It is easy to become
    flustered and confused.  My vet and I disagree on things all the time
    and I don't even have a DVM title!!  :^).  We Feliners do learn a lot
    on our own both by reading medical texts and sharing information via
    this forum.
    
    I have two cats acquired as strays and both were directly exposed to
    Felv.  Both continue to test negative 3 years later.  I'm sure given
    their situation (strays since birth) that their exposure was much more
    prolonged and consistent than your two kittens.
    
    Keep smiling!!
    
    --Roberta
     

    When you take them back for retests, ask the vet to test for FIV
    (Feline Aids) too.  In our area, they can test for both Felv and FIV
    from one vial of blood, so it doesn't cost anymore than just having the
    Felv done.
    
    This is best dealt with day to day, like Stephen said.  :^)
    
    Jo

      Re .0
    
      After reading all of this, I have some input... First of all, the Vet
    in Marlboro is the first I've ever heard of that attributes this high a
    percentage to the effectiveness of the vaccines for FeLV! The head of
    the Tufts hospital told me that 85% was more near the figure...
    
      Also, I would NOT be too harsh with your sister-in-law if I were you.
    She MAY have actually received a negative on the test for the cat that
    died...I know tht from experience...we lost a cat to leukemia in 5
    days, and she had tested negative for 3 years straight.
    
      I was so upset about this that I called Tufts and was connected with
    the Dean of the Vet school, who has done a lot of study and research
    into this dreaded disease. His response was simple: "There's a LOT that
    we do not know yet about this disease!". He felt that my cat had
    carried the virus in her bone marrow from her mother's womb, and it is
    not detectable in the test for the disease. He also told me that even
    if a cat is given the shot, there is a 15% chance that the immunization
    will NOT happen...which goes back to the 85% effectiveness. He also
    told me that if a cat IS immunized, then exposure to an infected cat
    would have no detrimental effect on the immunized animal, but that
    simply having the shots is not insurance...becuase the 15% not
    immunized will contract the disease. He also told me that in some
    cases--no percentages assessed at this time---a cat that tests
    POSITIVE, but is given the immunization anyway, will test negative and
    become immune to the disease! It seems that the immunization sometimes
    triggers the cat's immune system to reject the virus.  Based on that, I
    spoke to my vet, and we came to the decision to forget anymore
    tests...we simply immunized all of ours. I have 2 that tested positive,
    and 2 that tested negative prior to stopping testing. One of the Pos's
    tested that way for 5 years, and the other one only did so as a kitten.
    Weve had them living with our other two for 3.5 years now, and no
    problems have occurred. It's a very strange and puzzling disease.
    
    John Mc

    Nancy -
      You said something about AIDS.  That's FIV not FLV.  There's good
    news and bad news where FIV is concerned.  The bad news is that there
    is NO vaccine and NO cure for FIV (just like HIV).  The good news is
    that it is very very difficult to transfer the FIV virus from cat
    to cat.  I've been told that it requires a good bite from an infected
    cat.  That's why unneutered males are so much more likely to contract
    the disease.
    
      I would be pretty angry with your sister-in-law also.  You said she
    hadn't had the cat to the vet for 5 years despite chronic problems
    and a large weight loss in recent months.  Forgive me, but it sounds
    as tho the poor cat should be making the last ride to the vet.  From
    what you've told me the cat is sick and suffering.
       Nancy DC
    

    
    This all seems very complicated and from what I am gathering from
    different vets, very unpredictable.  It seems that this is all a very
    gray area, and like one of the other feliners said, "everyone is of
    differing opinions."  
    
    What has happened with Missy is that she is DEFINITELY positive in
    regards to the Leukemia....(FLV), but that the vet is almost positive
    that this has been complicated by FIV as well (AIDS).  I guess that
    they feel the animal has somehow contracted both.  Like Nancy DC stated
    in her note (we have been talking off line) Missy has not been for
    regular boosters and such for over 5 years.  In fact, her records were
    taken out of the active file because it had been SO long.  My future
    sister-in-law took her to the vet at my requuest to have her tested for
    ALL communicable diseases.  I am upset with her because, though she
    took Missy, she NEVER called back the vet to find out what the results
    were.  The vet told me that they ask that all their patient's parents
    call back the following day for blood work results.  This was never
    done.  Ellen simply told me that the animal was "fine" and everything
    turned out alright.  I don't know if this was a deep-seated
    psychological need on her part to "avoid the truth" or what.  She has
    seen the animal deteriorating (as I have) for a year now.  Despite my
    advice to please take Missy to the vet, this was never done.  The girl
    is young, was very busy pursuing a romantic relationship and working at
    niteclubs and going to hairdressing school .... in other words, it was
    more important to remain stocked in Redken, than that she spend 30
    bucks on her pet to insure its health. 
    
    I know I sound jaded and bitter, and I'm sorry about that.  But a
    living thing, I think, takes precedence over your beauty regime, or
    your latest "unresponsive" love interest.  Oh oh....I'm getting into
    "angry tirade" territory here so I had better stop.  
    
    I know the woman loves her cat, but it wasn't strong enough of a love
    to give the creature it's basic right to yearly checkups.  It was a
    love based on "when I come home I can hold it for 15 minutes and tell
    it how adorable it is, then I have to shower so I can go to AXIS in
    Boston and meet a man with long hair and a guitar."  
    
    Thank God I'm not her mother, that's all I can say!
    
    Nan
    
    P.S.  So now my cats are fighting the contraction of TWO major feline
    killer diseases.

    Oh, and one more thing......Nancy, this makes sense about the FIV...
    you see, there is a big black tom in the neighborhood who used to
    absolutely TERRORIZE Missy.  On more than one occasion I would come
    home to an empty house to find that Missy had been left out all day.  I
    would round the corner to the porch and find her trapped near the
    cellar by this huge black male, who was biting and scratching and
    trying to mount her or something.....I'd throw water on him, and he'd
    run.....but I would pick up this bruised and bleeding Missy and bring
    her in the house.....more than once I was washing and Bacitracin'ing
    her nose or ear or back....  the poor little thing would be shaking
    with fear...
    
    Nancy
    
    

    Nancy,
    
    Now that you have shared all this with us I guess it isn't out of line
    to ask if poor Missy is being treated for her illness now that it has
    been diagnosed.  Perhaps this incident has opened your sister-in-law's
    eyes to the medical responsibilities of owning a pet.
    
    As we've said throughout this discussion, exposure doesn't always lead
    to illness.  And, I have found through my experiences with vets that
    they always give a best and worst case scenario when a question is
    posed to them regarding an illness and if it can be contracted.  If
    they say, "don't worry, it will be alright," and the animal becomes ill
    then they would be viewed as unethical.  Try to look at it as an
    everyday part of their job -- to educate and inform.
    
    Cancer is rampant on both sides of my family.  If I were to ask my Dr.
    if I could contract it he/she would give me an honest, upfront answer,
    not a pat on the hand for assurance.  In the meantime, it is there, and
    it would do me no good to sit here everyday and worry about it.  I will
    confront it and deal with it if and when it happens.
    
    Enjoy your kids -- they need you!!  And give Missy some extra hugs and
    pats from me.  She needs them more than anyone!!
    

    Unfortunately, Stephen and I moved out of the home that Missy resides
    in almost 3 weeks ago.  We moved, in fact, due to the irresponsibility
    and financial demands that were placed on us due to the sister and her
    mother (who wouldn't let us find a replacement boarder for Ellen, but
    wouldn't pick up the expenses incurred by her daughter....we were
    paying for her to live with us is what it comes down too.)  Fed up and
    irritated by everything, we left.  So to be honest, I washed my hands
    of the whole family and moved on to the new place with STephen.  So I
    have no contact with Ellen, and have learned about Missy's illness thru
    Stephen's father Pat.  I guess Ellen called him all upset that her cat
    was dying and he forwarded that info along to Stephen and I.  I called
    Missy's vet and found out the prognosis.  I don't know what has been
    decided regarding the poor animal.  I guess in my own anguish regarding
    the kittens, I asked the vet questions about their future and forgot
    poor Missy's.  I guess you could say I am guilty of negligence as well,
    huh?
    
    I think I will call the doctor and see what has been decided.  I'll let
    you guys know what the verdict is.  I hope she had the good sense (if
    Missy is trully suffering) to put her down.
    
    Nancy

    I called Missy's vet.  Apparantly the vet told Ellen that the cat was
    suffering from complications due to FIV and FLV and that basically, she
    was deteriorating rapidly.  But the decision was NOT made to euthanize
    the animal.  Instead, it was taken home.  I feel so bad for her.
    
    Another case of "head in the sand" I guess.  But then, I am making a
    judgement call based on what I know of this person, and maybe I'm off
    base.  Still, I can't help but feel that this person is deciding to
    ignore the animal's suffering in favor of sparing her own feelings of
    grief and loss.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,

    This whole situation with Missy is very sad. Perhaps she is at peace
    now. Hopefully, your sister-in-law-to-be has learned something from 
    this and will do things differently in the future.

    I'm really glad to hear your little guys tested negative! Phew. That's
    one hurdle cleared. What Stephen said is very sound advice (he sounds
    like a great guy, and sensible, too!). Worrying can make you crazy -- 
    ask me, I know. :-)  It's hard not to worry; how about trying for 
    "cautiously optimistic?"  Testing again in three months is a good idea. 
    Your loving care will help them be strong and healthy, at least that's 
    what I believe. 

    Sending positive, caring thoughts your way,

    Linda    

    
    Thank you Linda.....
    
    I agree the situation with Missy is sad.  I think the saddest part is
    that the cat is so sick, and I know that if she is at home now and
    going thru her usual routine, she is probably infecting other
    neighborhood cats with FLV and FIV.  I mean, she goes out every day and
    all night, only coming in to eat her breakfast and dinner.   This is a
    very residential neighborhood and there are many kitties.  That is what
    concerns me.  I told Stephen I had a good mind to go fetch her out of
    her yard when no one was looking and putting her out of her misery. 
    But I would never do that.  I just couldn't ....  she is not mine and
    therefore, I can't make those decisions.  
    
    Still, she is hurting, and just by being outdoors, she is probably
    hurting others.
    
    Mine are still wild and rambunctious and hopefully will remain so.
    AS long as they keep testing negative....
    
    Nan

    Maybe you can contact your sister in law and explain the dangers of
    letting Missy roam (if in fact she is) and that she is putting other
    people's cats at great risk.  While I agree that folks who let their
    cats out run a risk of disease contraction, I wouldn't want someone
    knowingly letting their sick cat outdoors to infect mine.
    
    While you are rightfully upset and angry, maybe all she needs is a
    little education and information.  It is worth a try anyway.
    
    

    I have read all 25 replies and do understand how you feel about your
    3 little babies.  But Missy needs help and love too.  Do call your
    future sister-in-law and try to help her understand the suffering the
    poor cat is going through.  Maybe she will let you help her make the
    decision.  Letting Missy suffer is not the humane way of dealing with
    this.
    
    I will think good loving thoughts until you have your babies retested
    in October.  Can't wait to hear the good news (that they are negative).
    
    Sandi and the Storm Troopers
    
    

    Nancy - I think your anger is very well founded.  I know I am feeling
    a great deal of anger towards your sister-in-law for the way she is
    treating Missy.  
    
    However, I also agree with Sandy (.26).  The anger will serve no
    purpose.  Missy should be gently eased out of this world and out of
    her suffering.  It is cruel for your SIL to keep her alive, it is
    irresponsible and unconscienable for her to let Missy out to infect
    other peoples' cats.  Perhaps if you offered to take Missy for that
    last ride your SIL would agree.  Perhaps she just can't take that final
    step but would be willing to let someone else do it for her.  You
    obviously care about Missy.
    
    And don't feel guilty for concentrating on your own kittens.  That's
    understandable.  Also, it is a situation where you have control and
    can do something.  Missy's situation is not exactly under your control.
    
    Nancy DC
    

    Hi again,
    
    I just wanted to give you an update so you don't think I've not been
    hearing the last few notes.  I've been trying to contact Ellen and
    keep getting the darn answering machine.  I dropped by last nite but
    then remembered that she wasn't home because that is her nite to go to
    Boston to AXIS.  The house was dark....Missy was in the drive....I gave
    her a big hug and she greeted me with much meowing.  What a little
    doll.  She didn't seem like she was on her last legs, but her breath
    was rather smelly.  It was dark so I couldn't really check her gums.
    She was just SO happy to see me and so I rubbed her belly for a bit
    and then left.  
    
    Of course I washed thoroughly before I handled my own kittens.....just
    in case!
    
    I'll keep you posted if I get a hold of Ellen.  The cat should not be
    outdoors at the very least, even if she doesn't want to put her down.
    
    Nancy

    What did the vet say about Missy?  Was it his opinion that she
    had no time left, or that she would be okay for awhile?
    

    Hi,
    
    When I spoke with the vet she said that the mouth infection was severe
    and that the steady, continued weight loss was a clear sign that she
    was deteriorating.  I guess what she was telling me is that this
    infection in her mouth is just another complication as a result of the
    disease and that with each new disorder, Missy's body would become less
    and less effective at fighting off viruses, etc.  In other words, she
    is failing.  I can't seem to reach Ellen, so don't know what she plans
    to do about the animal.  But last nite Missy was still roaming the
    neighborhood and that terrified me.  I mean, some poor person down the
    street is probably at this very minute bringing home a lovely
    kitten/cat that they've adopted, and probably are planning to let it go
    outdoors.....it's almost like a deathwarrant for this kitty if Missy is
    allowed to roam.  Not to mention, there is still that wild black tom
    running around loose!  And another white/black cat that I used to
    notice around the house too!  She used to eat out of the garbabe bags
    but when I would try to approach her she would run.
    
    I will continue to try to call Ellen and let you all know what is
    happening.
    
    Nan