Conference misery::feline_v1

    I don't want to scare you, but these are classic symptoms of
    cardiomyopathy (failure of the heart muscle).  Certain types of cardio
    produce pulimary edema (lung fluid) which causes labored breathing. 
    
    Most heart diseases come on suddenly and without prior warning.  All of
    a sudden symptoms manifest, and are sometimes mistaken for URI's if
    proper tests are not performed.  Radiographs are usually very effective
    in diagnosing cardiomyopathy.
    
    Please keep us posted.  I will be praying for you.
    
    --Roberta
    

    My thoughts and prayers are with you.   Please keep us posted.
    
    Sandy

    
    Thanks for your support, especially as I'm just a "drop-in" reader...
    I was fearing the worst anyway - your honesty is appreciated.
    
    I'll let you know what happens to Spike...
    'gail
    

do not lose hope yet.  some forms of cardio can be treated; and with treatment,
a cat can live a happy and comfortable life.  A cat with treatable cardio, 
however, MUST become an indoor-only cat as they are too easily infected with 
diseases from other animals.

    Please keep us posted.  We all care about your baby.  I have some
    other bad news, however;  this sounds like what happnened when
    my Pussycat had feline leukemia.
    
    Karen
    

    Folks, isn't there some dietary deficiency that can cause this?
    I'm late for a  meeting and I can't remember, something
    like taurine? calcium?
    

    I don't know about pulmonary edema being caused by taurine deficiency
    or calcuim deficiency, but taurine deficiency can be a cause of one
    form of cardiomyopthy (Dilated Cardio).
    
    In Kalliste's cardio, he never had the pulmonary edema, but we were
    always on the watch for it.  It is a common symptom when a cat has a
    heart problem.  The chest cavity fills with fluid causing difficulty in
    breathing due to there not being enough room for the lungs to expand
    and fill with air.
    
    Hope that all will be well.
    
    Jo

    Isn't coughing also a symptom of asthma?
      Nancy

    
    Update on Spikey....
    
    He came home from the vet last night. They suspect heart disease.
    Apparently there wasn't enough fluid in his lungs (yet) to get a
    sample for analysis.....a good sign, I hope.
    
    He's been given antibiotics and heart medication, and he's going
    back to the vets on Friday for monitoring. Apparently it's 
    critical whether he decides to eat or not in the next few days.
    He has eaten a little....very little...
    
    Until Friday...
    'gail

    Gail, I am sorry to hear about Spikey.  I lost two cats to heart
    disease, so know the feeling of helplessness.  Do what you can for him
    and let mother nature do the rest.  I will be praying for Spikey and
    hope this has been caught early enough to bide him more time with you.
    
    Hang in there,
    
    --Roberta
    

    I'm so glad to hear that there wasn't much fluid in his lungs.
    Maybe some special treats (deli chicken? tuna?) would help his
    appetite?  Maybe all the extra cuddling which I'm sure he's
    getting will make him feel better and more reassured.
    

    We'll be saying our prayers for Spike.  Keep a hopeful outlook.
    Cats cat tell our feelings.
     Nancy

    
    Treats - raw chicken livers and canned tuna seem to be doing it
    at the moment - he is going to get SO spoilt!
    
    He is also eating a lot of dried food and "moist" food which is a
    little unusual for him - but hey, anything he wants to eat right now
    is OK by me! He was looking hopefully at some bread and butter I
    was eating last night, so I gave that to him....
    
    He'd better enjoy this while it lasts!
    And yes, he's getting lots of extra cuddles, though he doesn't like
    being picked up right now - he's getting sort of stationary cuddles!
                                                                        
    'gail
    
    
    

    Gail,
    
    You might want to watch his sodium intake too.  High sodium levels
    could cause him to retain water and aggravate the pulmonary edema.
    There are special diets available for cats with heart problems, you
    might ask your vet about these once Spikey is eating normally.
    
    So glad to hear that he is doing better. :^)
    
    Jo

    Abby
    
    Sorry to hear about Spikey, hope he's doing to be OK.  If you need some
    moral support, remember I'm just 2 floors above you.
    
    Lots of hugs
    
    Eileen
    

    
    RE -1
    Thanks Eileen! I didn't realise you were in here!! :-}
    
    Update:
    It is heart disease. The heart is considerably enlarged and more
    muscular than usual. And he's not getting much better.
    
    Symptoms:
    Fast, forced breathing, extreme lethargy, still eating and drinking,
    occasional wracking coughs that sound horrible because he has fluid
    in his lungs.
    
    Apparently heart disease can be caused by either 
    a) lack of taurine (gold star to that smart person who mentioned this
       earlier!)
    b) a benign tumour on the thyroid gland
    
    a) is more common in cats over 6 years old. b) can happen any time.
    
    Treatment:
    Diuretics to try and keep the fluid in his lungs down
    Beta blockers for his heart
    Turine - powder in his food - 500mg to 1g a day
    
    We start the beta blockers tomorrow.
    
    It feels strange writing all this down as it is happening. I only hope
    that this might help someone else in the future who is worried sick
    about their kitty :-|
    
    'gail
    

    Gail, it sounds as though you are describing Hypertrophic
    Cardiomyopathy.  I lost two cats to this, and the classic signs were
    fast, heavy breathing, lung fluid, and Xrays of the heart showed a
    thick left ventrical wall.  Unfortunately, once their symptoms
    manifested I wasn't able to take them home from the hospital; they were
    too sick.  Shelby was admistered diuretcs and died during the
    procedure; Kirby went downhill very fast and I had to peacefully end
    his suffering.  He was at Tufts for an entire weekend and they did
    everything for him.
    
    Please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you.  If you need to
    talk, feel free to send mail.
    
    --Roberta
    

    I have lost a cat to Hypertrophic Cardio, and a friend lost her cat to
    it too.  Neither of our cats had the pulmonary edema (fluid around the 
    lungs in the pleural cavity).  But both did suffer a saddle thrombus, or 
    blood clot that blocked the main aorta where it split off to the femoral 
    arteries of the back legs.  The symptoms of this are paralysis in the hind
    legs, and very cold and/or blue back feet.  If you ever notice these 
    symptoms in your cat (or any cat) rush him to the vet ASAP.  The longer 
    the legs are without blood flow the more difficult it is to reverse the 
    problem.
    
    The first step in treating a cardio patient is diagnosing which form of
    cardio the cat has.  The treatments are different for the different
    types.  In Roberta's case, I think that they drained off the fluids and
    administered diuretics to help prevent fluid buildup.  In our case,
    they had to administer vaso-dilators, blood thinners, and then a human
    heart medication that regulates the heart beat and prevents the
    formation of more clots.  Hypertrophic Cardio affects the left
    ventricle and prevents it from working properly.  The blood sits around
    too long in the heart and clots are able to form.
    
    I am very sorry that your cat turned out to be this sick.  Be strong
    though.  He can survive this.  He may need some supportive care from
    you though.  Keep your chin up and if you need some support, we are out
    here and can help.
    
    Jo
    

    Please let us know how things are going;  we're all pulling for your
    baby.
    
    Karen, Sweetie, Holly, and Little Bit
    

    My thoughts and prayers are with you and the kitty.
    
    Stay strong....Sandy

    
    A request.....
    
    Could someone who is less of a klutz with Notes than I am move my
    Spikey's story to a new string and label it Heart Disease?
    
    This should make it easier for anyone with the same problem to find
    it - and I haven't a clue how to move notes around!
    
    'gail
    (who is working through a very s l o w All-in-1 interface to notes
    which makes it real frustrating to try and do anything...)
    
           

    Hang in there Gail.  I remember reading that with Cardiomyopathy that
    is the result of a taurine deficiency, they get fairly good results
    once the deficiency is reversed.  So keep the positive thoughts.
    We'll all be praying.  
      Nancy DC

    From everything I learned from the specialists at Tufts, taurine
    deficiency cardio is extremely rare nowadays, since all of the cat food
    companies have supplemented with more than adquate amounts of taurine
    over the past several years.
    
    However, there are some cats who cannot utilize the taurine properly
    from their cat food.  For some reason, their systems cannot metabolize
    it.  This could lead to taurine deficiency cardiomyopathy, also known
    as dialated.  With dialated, the chambers of the heart become weak and
    flabby, as opposed to the thickening that occurs in the hypertrophic
    type.
    
    
    --Roberta
      

    
    RE -1
    
    Yes - you people really impress me with the knowledge you have!
    Experts indeed!! Thanks, Joe and Roberta.
    
    A thought....
    If some cats can't use taurine, is it because they are short of another
    mineral or vitamin that enables them to use it?
    Like humans not being able to absorb vitamin C unless they have enough
    zinc, for instance?
    Or is it just a hereditary physiological thing?
    
    I was wondering if I should be giving him another supplement as well 
    as this yucky powder that I'm feeding him, to make sure that he gets
    the most out of it....
    'gail

    Gail, you posed some very good questions; unfortunately, I don't have
    the answers.  So much is still being learned about cardiomyopathy and
    how a cat acquires it.  My own personal belief is that there is a
    hereditary predisposition to it, but it has been documented that viral
    illnesses can cause it too.  With the Ragdolls (the breed of cat I lost
    two of), the cardio occured either on or before the first birthday, and
    several cats of the same litters were lost.  This is why I felt so
    strongly that their type was genetic in nature.  Also, from speaking to
    other breeders at shows, cardio was prevelant in the breed and I wasn't
    the only person who had lost cats to it.
    
    With the household pets, it is even more difficult to determine the
    origin of the cardio, since the parents are usually unknown and there
    aren't any similar cases to compare it to.  The specialists are still
    learning about cardio, and probably will be for years to come. 
    Although progress has been made, there are still no cut-and-dry answers
    to all of our questions.  It certainly is frustrating.
    
    --R.
     

    Roberta is right on all counts.
    
    The Robert H. Winn Foundation is currently funding on ongoing study of
    cardiomyopathy in cats.
    
    Jo

    Re:. 26
    
    I think the moderator will have to do that, so she can take
    all the reply notes with it.  Probably only the author or the
    moderator can move notes.  I'm sure Deb is lurking about out
    there somewhere....
    

    
    A big THANKS to whoever moved this string! :-)
    
    Re .25
    Yes - my vet said that the real root cause of heart disease is still
    unknown. Apparently some researchers suspect that an allergy could
    be at the root of it, but he didn't mention an allergy to *what*.
    As your kitties were so young it does sound congenital....I'm sorry
    to hear about them.
    
    The vet warned us that, when we start Spikey on his beta-blockers, his
    symptoms may appear to get worse temporarily.So I am feeling a little
    nervous about starting the pills as I find it so hard to watch him
    fighting for breath....
    Will keep y'all posted.
    
    'gail
    
     

    Gail,
    
    You are such a strong person.  I doubt that I could handle giving
    Flirtaysha all that medication since she hated her ringworm pills
    so much.  It must be very hard for you right now.  I know that I
    would probably put Flirt down but that's just me.  Most people
    wouldn't and that is great.  I was brought up to believe that it
    was God's sign that he wanted my baby for himself.  Please keep
    me up to date with...Oh my I forgot his name ( my roots are showing).
    
    Our prayers,hugs and kisses are with you.  We are here if you need
    anything.
    
    Lisa and Flirtaysha

    I am sorry to hear about what you and Spike are going through. 
    Remember to try and stay as calm and relaxed as you can, even if it
    takes a mental effort.  This could do wonders for you both!  Good luck
    and paw pats from us all!
    KRSW +5

    My prayers are with you also.  Hang in there.
    
    Sandi and the Storm Troopers
    
    

    RE: .28
    
    Sorry, I forgot to send mail after I Moved this string, but it looks
    like you all found it.
    
    I hope everything turns out all right with your cat.
    Deb
    FELINE co-moderator

    I just found out that my cat Monroe has Severe Cardiomyopathy and he is
    on lasix to get rid of the fluid around his heart. The vets say Monroe
    has the worst case of heart disease and that there is nothing they can
    do about it. The specialists still do not know what causes this and
    there is no cure as of yet. My other problem is that I think my other
    cat Mocha has it. He has the same symptoms that monroe had in the 
    beginning, breathing difficulties, panting, staying in one place and
    not moving. I will be taking Mocha to the vets tommorow, to see if it
    is the extreme heat that we have been getting,  or if it is what Monroe
    has. 
    
    Monroe and Mocha are around the same age, only 7 years old.
    I have been feeding them the same food for years, (friskies buffet)
    ever since Monroe got Cistitis. The vet told me to put him on
    beef and liver and chicken giblets. Has anyone else who has had a 
    problem with cardiomyopathy, feed there cats this?
    
    Does anyone no if this disease can spread to other cats?
    
    The vet said that Monroe could of been born with this disease but I
    feel it is highly unlikely if both of my cats have it, and their not 
    related.
    
    If anyone has any more information please let me know,
    
    Thanks  Liz

	 see notes  2125,  2651, 3067 (dir/key=cardiomyopathy) for other
     notes containing discussions centering around cardio.

    Roberta where are you???  Liz, Roberta is an "expert" on this
    subject.  She has had 3 of her kitties die of it. One was not
    related the the other two.
    
    I know she will reply when she see's this note.
    
    Regards,
    Barbara

    There are many different forms of Cardiomyopathy, and one form is
    known to be related to diet.  That form is called Dilated
    Cardiomopathy.  It can be caused by a diet that is deficient in
    Taurine.  If your cat has this form, then you may have reason to be
    concerned, BUT, Friskie's Buffet is a national brand that has to meet
    the National Research Council's recommendation on the amount of Taurine
    that must be added to cat foods in order to meet their nutritional
    requirement for Taurine.  
    
    If your cat is on Lasix now, then he probably will have to have his
    diet changed too, to a heart diet that is lower in salt.  Lasix helps
    prevent the fluid from building up in the plueral cavity.  A diet that
    is lower in salt will also help prevent excess fluids from being
    retained by the body.
    
    Cats that have cardio can sometimes be maintained with medication and
    diet.  I lost a cat to Cardio in January, but his was an acquired form
    of it called Hypertrophic Cardio and probably had nothing to do with
    his diet.
    
    There are a lot of views on what can cause cardio.  Many vets believe
    that all types are genetically transmitted.  Other vets feel that a
    couple of forms of it are genetic and other forms of it are acquired. 
    You will get a different opinion depending on which vet you talk to. 
    The bottom line is that they are not 100% sure what causes it.  Right
    now the Robert H. Winn Foundation is funding a research project that is
    working to answer the question of how this disease occurs.
    
    I would get your other cat to the vet right away to be checked.  His
    symptoms could be related to the heat, but it is better to know for
    sure than to worry about it.  
    
    Cardio is not thought to be contagious, but several of my cat books say
    that "viral illness" can play a role in the Hypertrophic Cardio, which
    two of my books have labeled as acquired, not genetic.  I think that
    the concept is that some form of viral illness (maybe URI) weaken the
    heart and make it susceptible to cardio.  I don't think that that means
    that your other cat is at risk necessarily, since how the heart reacts
    to a stress would be highly individual.
    
    You have my thoughts with you.  I have been through this too and I know
    how hard it can be.
    
    Jo

    If the cats have been eating one particular flavor of Friskies (I
    wasn't sure from the note) might that be deficient in Taurine?
    Perhaps friskies foods are balanced under the assumption that the
    cat will be fed a variety.  Can the vet check for a taurine deficiency
    (promptly?)
    

    Canned foods have to add taurine since the natural taurine in the foods
    are destroyed during processing.  It is unlikely that a cat food
    manufacturer would supplement their food on the assumption that an
    owner would offer a variety of flavors.  More likely, each flavor is
    supplemented with the same amount of Taurine.
    
    Since the discovery a few years ago that Taurine deficiency was
    directly linked to Dilated Cardio, cat food manufacturer's have been
    supplementing their foods with added Taurine.  The incidence of Dilated
    Cardio has decreased since that time.
    
    One reassuring thing though, if the cardio that Monroe has Dilated and
    related to Taurine Deficiency, adding Taurine to his diet can sometimes
    reverse the symptoms.  
    
    I love the name Monroe for a cat.  I have a ten year old cream tabby
    boy named Monroe.  :^)  My Monroe has FUS too, and many years back the
    vet told me that the only thing I could safely feed him was Friskie's
    Buffet Beef and Liver, or Turkey and Giblets since they were the lowest
    in ash and magnesium of all the foods on the market at the time.  But,
    nowadays there are so many foods that are low in ash, and many are
    lower than those two Friskie's Buffet flavors.  If memory serves, the
    FB Beef and Liver was 2.5% ash, but Iams canned is 1.9% ash.  We give
    our Monroe Science Diet C/D dry food, and occassionally supplement him
    with a treat of Iams canned food.  He has not had a bout of FUS in
    about the last 6 years and I am very happy about that.
    
    Jo

    Old Mother Hubbard canned is VERY VERY low in ash and magnesium and
    quite affordable.  That is the canned food I feed  my group now.
    
    Also, OMH produces an acidic urine naturally which helps prevent
    the formation of crystals.  
    
    re: Taurine - are there factors that would interfear with the cat's
    ability to absorb the Taurine.  I know that certain foods can interfear
    with the absorbtion of Calcium in humans and that certain things 
    (?Ascorbic acid - like in broccoli??) will aid in the absorbtion.
      Nancy
    

    I have been in touch with Liz offline and Monroe has been diagnosed as
    having Hypertrophic Cardio which is not related to Taurine deficiency.
    
    Her vets have him on medication and they are doing what they can.
    
    Jo

    
    	My Monroe died this monday morning in my arms. He was diagnosised
        with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy around June 1991. I thought he was
        doing so well, he was eating, drinking, purring and kneeding like
    	when I first got him 7 years ago. I swear he acted like he was
    	getting better and that nothing was going to stop him from getting
    	better. I didn't see any symptoms or signs that he was going, he 
    	was fine the night before. I think he went into cardiac arrest and
    	thats what took his life, but I will never no. It's kind of fitting
    	that he would die on veterans day, he was such a trooper and a
    	fighter, he never gave up.
    	
    	He was a very down to earth loving animal. He loved everyone and
    	everyone loved him. He was my very special friend. I miss him so
    	much.
    
    	I would like to thank everyone who was supportive, especially
    	Roberta and Jo. They taught me so much and gave me hope when I
    	needed it. They where always there when I needed someone to talk
    	to.
     
    	I pray that soon there will be a cure for this deadly disease.
    	
        Liz                                                    
    	

    Liz so sorry to hear about Monroe.  My prayers are with yours
    in hope they find a cure for this disease.  I lost my Tamba
    to Cariomyopathy just about 6 weeks ago....and the big guy
    is always on my mind and will be forever in my heart.  I still
    miss him terribly...and I'm sure you feel the same way
    about Monroe.
    
    There's not much anyone can say...but believe me you are in
    our thoughts and prayers.  Monroe is resting now...with many
    of our loving furfaces to keep him company.
    
    Sandy

    I'm glad you posted a note in here, Liz.  You'll find the replies will
    help in your grief and speed the healing process.
    
    I've already expressed my condolensces to you via mail, but here they
    are again.  Monroe was just as lucky to have you as you were to have
    him.  Keep smiling, things WILL get better!
    
    -Roberta
    

    We're so sorry, try to hold the loving memories, and let the knowledge
    that he's at peace comfort you.
    
    Linda, & Midnight, Kikay, Penny, Max and Sebastian

    Liz. - Roberta has been keeping me updated on Monroe's condition
    as time went along. People who have lost their kitties to
    Hytro-cardio know exactly what you are going through, however
    the rest of us feliners would like you to know we hurt too
    because we lost one of our friends.
    
    Keep those memories and soon the hurt will go away.
    
    Barbara

    So sorry to hear that Monroe is gone.  He is now joining all the other
    kitties where-ever they go - and they are all happily purring together.
    
    The memories will keep you going.  The hurt will come and go.  
    
    Ellen and Bob and Zelda

    I'm so sorry for your loss, but remember that he will always live on in
    your heart.  Be strong.
    
    Gentle hugs,
    
    Giudi +3

    I'm so sorry about Monroe.
    
    Karen