Conference misery::feline_v1

    I have used the Nolvasan mouth rinse on my cats.  It is easier to do 
    than brushing but I am not sure that it is really that effective against 
    tartar buildup.  
    
    My cat Jesse lived to be 19 1/2 years old and had never had his teeth
    cleaned.  Towards the end, he probably could have used it, but due to
    his age and physical condition the vet and I decided it wasn't worth
    the risk.  He had some kidney/liver trouble in his later years.  He
    ended up only losing a few teeth, mostly the small ones in the front
    between the canines.  He didn't lose any of his canine teeth.
    
    I have a tendency to back off from a vet that makes a blanket statement
    that all cats should have their teeth cleaned once a year.  I do not
    feel that anesthesia is safe enough to routinely subject my cats to it.
    I do teeth cleanings on an individual basis, based on need, and
    weighing all the risks.  My vet will usually scrape my cats teeth
    manually without the use of anesthesia during their yearly checkups.
    
    Jo

    I have always had my cat's teeth cleaned once a year.  With Guido
    Tiggerini it also gives the vet a chance to clip his back claws (the
    cat's that is) without needing a blood transfusion afterward.  None of my
    cats have come to any harm from being "put under" and I consider that
    such discomfort as there may be is more than offset by the benefits of
    having healthy teeth.   
    
    Three and me.
    
    And in spirit only:
    
    Black Chap		18
    Pizza Pie		16
    Miss Mary Goldberg	17
    Freebie		at least 18-19
    Mr. Georgie 	at least 18-19
    Miss Flea		7  (missing presumed.....)

    Just so that I am fully understood on my objection to anesthesia...
    
    Purebred cats are more susceptible to anesthesia and are easily
    overdosed.
    
    When asked, most vets will admit to a 5% or slightly higher "loss" rate
    on anesthetized cats.
    
    Jo

weekly maintenance of the teeth, according to my vet, means you never have
to have your cat put "under" or, at least, not every year.  I'm with Jo
on this 100% - the fewer times I let my cats get anesthetized, the happier
I am.  We almost lost Tabitha a few years back when she was subjected to
the full teeth cleaning.  The vet said we had bad drugs, but I'm suspicious
that the problem was due to the fact that Tabs is full blood siamese and
not too young.  Now, I rub the teeth with gauze wrapped around my finger when
I groom everyone each week.  That, and feeding mostly dry kibble (IAMS and
Science Diet) seems to be adequate.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

    Funny you should mention this subject.  Dusty had his yearly check-up
    last Saturday, and the ol' tartar on the teeth subject came up again.
    He is 5 1/2, and never had his teeth cleaned.  I, too, am reluctant to
    have him put under for this procedure.  The vet suggested that I start
    cleaning his teeth 2-3 times a week.  He said it would probably be
    easier to use a washcloth than a (baby) toothbrush - but the gauze
    sounds like an even better idea.  I mix a paste of baking soda, and
    garlic or onion salt.  Of course, Dusty would rather loose his teeth
    than put up with this!  Such is life...

    Well I am still frustrated with what to do, mostly with Sausha since
    she is the old lady of the household.  The vet always runs a blood
    panel before he does the procedure to make sure everything is looking
    normal for her.
    
    As far as the rubbing with gauze, is it really that effective on the
    tartar buildup?  I can't see how that would remove it unless you have
    some kind of a tool to scrape away the tartar.  I also can't imagine
    any of my girls letting me get my hands in their mouths for any period
    of time, taking a pill in our house is a BIG ordeal!
    
    A few of you mentioned the risk of being put under related to
    purebreds, does this mean if you have just regular ole fur face rats
    that its not as risky?
    
    Decisions....decisions.....what's this worried mommy to do??
    
    Lori...Sausha...Misty Rae...Freeway
                   

    It is always a risk to put a cat under anesthesia.  Purebreds tend to
    be more susceptible to the drugs, so are easily overdosed.  That is one
    reason why it is important for your vet to know if your cat is
    purebred.  Don't count on the vet to recognize your breed, be sure and
    tell him.
    
    Jo

    Nikki, my household pet, had his teeth cleaned last year.  He had 2
    broken teeth which needed to be pulled so I had the vet clean Nik's
    teeth while he was under.  When I brought T.K., my other household pet,
    in for his annual exam this same vet recommended routine teeth
    cleaning.  I said no way, and he warned me that we can't wait too long
    on this, and how T.K.'s teeth will only get worse as he ages.  The way
    I saw it, this vet was doing major rennovations on his office and
    probably needed money to help pay for it.  I wasn't going to be a
    sucker.
    
    I'm with Jo and Dian -- I refuse to put my cats under anesthesia unless
    it is absolutely necessary.  I am currently getting a lecture from my
    new vet about felv shots.  I don't believe in their effectiveness and
    do not vaccinate my cats.  She feels I am wrong and should vaccinate
    them.  She has a right to express her opinion but I should also feel
    comfortable in ignoring it without any guilt or apologies.
    
    When I was growing up, we always had cats and none of them ever
    required teeth cleaning or felv shots and all of them lived to a ripe
    old age.  These were indoor/outdoor cats too.  I am a firm believer in
    immunity being inherited, purebred or not.
    
    --Roberta
    

    Jo, I have a question:  In your opinion, do you believe that pure breds
    are more prone to disease, health problems, or are weaker? My
    girlfriend and I are always having a heated discussion about this. 
    Whenever one of my cats has a problem of any kind, she says it's
    becuase they are purebreds.  I disagree and say that I know what I have
    as far as temperment etc. goes and that that is an old wives tale. 
    What sayeth you?
    
    On the subject of teeth:  this also comes at an interesting time for
    Stinky and I.  He has just lost his third canine tooth.  I can also see
    that a few of the little itty bitty ones between are now gone too.  
    
    Last year he went in for the full cleaning and I was told he fought the
    anesthesia with a vengeance. I cannot  see doing this to him again
    unless it is something almost life threatenin.  Yes, his teeth looked
    great, but here, a year later he still loses them.  It is hard for me
    because I feel guilty about the lack of veterinary care I chose to give
    him.  I have tried to brush his teeth with the cat tooth brush and
    petrodent toothpaste.  This is probably the most rediculous thing I
    have ever tried with him!!  Wing on the other hand seems to like the
    little brush and the toothpaste.  Ruby doesn't think I EVER need to do
    anything to her (the little PIT).  If this was my first time, I might
    try it and see how things went and then make a decision for the future.  
    
    One other note: Stinkmaster WILL NOT eat dry food, and I know of a
    woman who has several "gummy" cats who do just fine.  They prefer wet
    food of course, but will also wolf down whole the dry stuff.  (maybe
    Stinky won't tear up poor Ruby's neck so much anymore! the little
    hornball)!

    My vet wants me to brush my cats' teeth a few times a week, but I'm
    lucky if I manage once a month during claw-trimming time.  Nebula, in
    particular, HATES toothbrushing.  Luckily, her teeth are better than
    JFCL's - Nebula is a few months younger.  JFCL, on the other hand, can
    be placated afterwards because she LOVES to be brushed, which Nebula
    also doesn't like.  But brushing the teeth on either of them is much
    worse than claw trimming, or even pill-feeding.  Poor critters! 
    However, their human slave (me!) is bigger than either of them, so they
    get treated anyhow.  I don't want to brush their teeth several times a
    week; I'm afraid I will soon have cats that are afraid of me, which I
    don't want.  I'm not home that much anyhow, and I don't want them to
    find that every time I'm home I grab them and "torture" them with their
    teeny toothbrushes, the poor critters.
    
    /Charlotte                                          

    Hmm.. well I know MAMA Cin will probably "fall off her chair"..
    but I wanted to make sure Preschie's teeth  looked super
    for her Debut in Sept, so we went to visit Dr Eric for
    a day.. and he checked her teeth.. he did it manually
    and just before the salem show we went back again. I 
    "do teeth" when they will let me. Preschie wants it
    done as a standalone job.. ie just het teeth,, no
    brushing her fur, eyes or ear cleaning. I use
    the Nova rinse.. and it works well.. Happy
    does not like to have  her "mouth fooled with"..
    so Dr Eric does her for me.. I  will attempt
    the  tooth brushing routine, but she will
    not sit still long enough for me to " do 
    a good job..  of course   I also
    bathe Happy in thirds.. Dr Eric says she is very
    good for him and that he is able to
    usually do it manually.. we have only had
    to put her under once  so far. 
    Kate

    Just a quick question on the Nova Rinse.  Is this something you just
    squirt into the beastie's mouth or is it applied with gauze and rubbed
    on the teeth?
    
    Also a quick one on anesthesia.....if your cat has been put under
    several times (i.e. spayed, declawed, teeth cleaning, surgery) and has
    reacted well, does that mean that they tolerate the anesthesia well and
    should not have a problem in the future; or that each time could
    produce a good or bad result.
                                       
    Questions...Questions...Questions...
    
    Lori...Sausha...Misty Rae...Frewway

>    Also a quick one on anesthesia.....if your cat has been put under
>    several times (i.e. spayed, declawed, teeth cleaning, surgery) and has
>    reacted well, does that mean that they tolerate the anesthesia well and
>    should not have a problem in the future; or that each time could
>    produce a good or bad result.
                                       
each time can be dangerous due to changes in your cat's health, weight, and
general resistance.  Your cat's attitude can also have an affect, in  my
opinion.  If it is necessary, then it must be done...blood panel prior to
each time.  I feel it is always best to TRY and correct the teeth problem
yourself first...if reasonably possible.  In our case, my cats don't
like teeth "brushing" with gauze and baking soda paste, but I am strong
and determined enough to do it.  I also took away all moist food from the
two worst victims of tartar.  They grumbled, but the kibble was good food
and they adjusted to just eating kibble...no snacks, no canned food.  Now,
both of them have perfect teeth.  In fact, my vet was surprised as she
was sure we would have to do Tabs under anesthesia....so, my advice is
to give it a few months trial IF YOU ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO STAY ON TOP
OF IT and then have the teeth checked again.  This is serious enough, in
my opinion, that I would also suggest you get a second opinion from another
vet.  I certainly would NOT subject my cat to yearly doses.  I cannot
imagine an experienced vet recommending that - every vet I've known works
very hard to MINIMIZE the number of times a cat or dog is anesthetized in
his/her lifetime in consideration of longevity of the animal.

    Karen, on the subject of purebred hardiness, I am afraid that I agree
    wtih your friend that purebreds *can* be less hardy that your typical
    stray cat.
    
    Think about if for a minute.  In the stray cat population, survival of
    the fittest weeds out those with weaker systems.  In my breeding
    program, I do whatever I can to keep all the kittens alive and well.
    So, those with weaker systems are not weeded out by nature.  It is very
    hard to tell sometimes which cats have a weaker system.  I follow a general
    rule, any kitten that was not hardy and healthy as a youngster will not
    be sold into a breeding situation.
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    You mentioned that your vet cleaned your cats teeth without
    anesthetizing them?  Who is your vet?
    
    The vet I go to never mentioned cleaning without anesthetizing 
    the cat first.  I guess I just never thought to ask.  My vet said 
    the same thing about once a year cleaning!
    
    I thought that was a bit much!  I don't want my cat going under
    every year!  
    
    Michele & Jasmine :)

    I believe the need for tooth cleaning varys from cat to cat.
    Sweetie and Little Bit get tartar build up and red gums easily.
    Holly does not.  The gauze pads (Catodontics) now come with a
    Qtip like thing and this is much easier to use than trying to get
    a realtively fat finger into the cats mouth.
    
    Take a look at your cat's gums -- are they inflamed?  Particularly
    look atthe outside back gum area, which is usually the worse.
    The gauze cleaning helps S and LB a lot in doing away with teh redness.
    

    Karen,
    
    Can the "Catodontics" be purchsed at your Vets or is it available at a
    local pet store?  This truely sounds easier then getting them fat
    fingers into their mouth and I would much prefer for them to bite the
    Qtip then my fingers!
    
    Your right about the outside back gum area for my three girls, thats
    where all the tarter builup seems to collet.  If the gum is not red but
    has a slight yellow tint above the tooth is this the beginning of an
    abcess?  Sausha's teeth looked that way last time right before I got
    them cleaned, but it had been her first cleaning in 12 years so I
    wasn't surprised at the amount of gunk buildup.
    
    Lori...Sausha...Misty Rae...Freeway

    When I was at the vet's the other day I picked up a Pet Care Report put 
    out by Ralston Purina Co. on "Your Cat's Teeth". It had what looked 
    like some useful information on brushing your cat's teeth. It is very
    loosely paraphrased below.

    The pamphlet says, as do many Feliners already experienced in this sort 
    of activity, to use a toothbrush for pets, soft cloth, or piece of gauze 
    wrapped around your finger. A foaming toothpaste can make the cat gag; 
    only use one that is made for cats.

    If your cat is, uh, pressed for time and can't (as in "won't") stay for
    the duration of a complete tooth brushing, the upper premolars and 
    molars are the most important teeth to aim for, since they collect 75% 
    of the plaque. The canine tooth (or "fang", to use the technical term) 
    at the front of the mouth is pretty hard to mistake; the molar is the 
    tooth at the opposite end of the line, at the back of the mouth. The 
    premolars are between the canine and the molar. 

    Now, I thought this part was *very* clever: let the cat get used to the 
    toothbrush by dipping it in a solution of garlic salt and water or in 
    tuna juice (the water-packed and, preferably, "dolphin safe" kind). The 
    cat will lick and chew on the toothbrush, and then be magically sold on 
    the idea of having its teeth brushed.

    Getting down to business, first "restrain the cat if necessary". Picture 
    #1 shows Kitty wrapped in a towel with only the head sticking out. (There 
    are two human hands holding the towel around the cat; it does not say if 
    these are the same hands that will be brushing the teeth and, if not, 
    where you get the other 2 or more hands required to do the job.) The next 
    step is to tilt the cat's head back, causing the mouth to open naturally 
    (unless, of course, your cat thinks you are going to give it a pill, in 
    which case it will clamp its teeth tightly shut). Then, use a circular 
    motion to brush the teeth. Voila! 

    I have yet to try this, but it looks like it should be a snap.  :-) 

    Linda

>   Getting down to business, first "restrain the cat if necessary". Picture 
>    #1 shows Kitty wrapped in a towel with only the head sticking out. (There 
>    are two human hands holding the towel around the cat; it does not say if 
>    these are the same hands that will be brushing the teeth and, if not, 
>    where you get the other 2 or more hands required to do the job.) The next 

Yeah, and for all these kitties that have only one human, normally equipped with
only a single pair of arms/hands, those humans will need to grow at least 2
extra pairs of arms/hands to do the holding and brushing while said puss 
practices their amoeba/snake imitation. ;^)  ;^)

    Michelle,
    
    My vet will scrape tartar off the cats teeth without anesthesia if the
    buildup is bad, and if it will come off easily with a fingernail.  My
    vet is very conservative when it comes to putting my cats under for any
    procedure.  What we usually do is do a teeth cleaning if a cat will
    need to go under for something else.  Otherwise, we do the manual
    method.  She gave me the Nolvasan mouth rinse and I use it on the cats
    that have the biggest problems with tartar build up.
    
    My vet is Dr. Deborah Rue at the Irvington Pet Hospital in Fremont, CA.
    
    Jo

    Catodontics are available at my vets.  I don't know if stores
    carry them.  I use the tuck the cat between the legs, restrain with
    the left arm, hold head with left hand, hold gums open with
    left fingers, use right fingers to help with parting gums, except
    some right fingers to hold qtip/gauze.  It works pretty well.
    

    I just had Tiger's teeth cleaned yesterday.  He had severe
    periodontal disease. Poor baby.  The vet said to try to
    clean his teeth at least every three days because it only
    takes four days for tartar to start to build up again.
    He also said do NOT use people toothpaste.  It bubbles up
    and cats cannot tolorate it and it will make them sick.
    He said to use a mixture of baking soda and hydrogen peroxide
    and a soft baby toothbrush.  He also said that canned food
    is the major cause of tooth problems for cats, so I am
    going to try to feed him only dry food.  I'm sure he will
    feel like I am starving him to death.  He demands his
    canned food twice a day (at least - he would prefer more often).
    I havn't tried this yet. I have a feeling this is going to be
    even harder than trying to get medicine down him.  Wish me
    luck, I'll let you all know how it goes.
    
    Nancy and Tiger  

    Nancy - why don't you start by feeding him canned once a day and
    dry once a day.  I started doing that because of their teeth.
    See if that helps.
    

    I have something called GelKam (sp?) from my vet for
    using on the toothbrush.  It's not a toothpaste but some sort
    of flouride(sp?) hardener.  You have to be careful not to
    use too much as an overdose causes bad symptoms.  the Vet
    said a small pea sized drop twice a week.  The first GelKam was
    grape flavored and smelling and the cats took off like
    bats out of hell when I came near them with it.  The second kind
    is bubblegum flavored;  Sweetie and Little Bit actually like it;
    Holly tolerates it.
    
    So, this might be a substitute idea for the baking soda (icky
    tasting as I recall) if your vet appoves.
    

    p.s.  I had to work up to brushing their teeth in stages.  I
    think now they actually like having their gums gently brushed.
    

    Why is it that veterinary dental products cater to human preferences
    regardless of what the animals may think?  Do they REALLY think that
    kitty likes grape-flavored or bubblegum-flavored toothpaste?  You'd
    think that they'd like tuna-flavored a lot better 8-)
    
    When one of our chinchillas was having teeth problems, the vet gave
    us a bottle of "mouth rinse" and told us to squirt a dropperful
    into its mouth once a day.  It was mint-flavored, just like people
    mouthwash.  Naturally, the chinch HATED it!
    
    --jim
    

    Gel Kam is not (I think) a vet dental product.  It's another
    of these things that's used over the transom.  
    

    Flavors of the mouth, ah, month:
    
    mouse
    tuna
    grass
    pizza
    cheese
    

    re: .28  and cream!!