Conference misery::feline_v1

    Cin, I can't be of help as far as vaccines, but was wondering, if
    in fact, a killed is better than a modified live and would offer
    increased protection against infectious diseases.
    
    Both Kelsey and Kirby were vaccinated with Eclipse 4 at the cattery
    which is a modified live virus offering  protection against
    chlamydia.  Both of them came down with a URI (Kirby's was much
    worse than Kelsey's) upon joining my home.  I'm wondering if the
    modified live virus had any bearing on this.  The last shot (2 series
    shot) was given to them about a week before I picked them up.
    
    I'd be interested to hear what other breeders write in to this topic.
    
    
    --Roberta (who's cage curtains are being shipped on Monday!!)
     

re: .0

Cin,

We use Eclipse 4KP.

We've tried other brands, but we haven't been particularly impressed with 
their quality control.  Also, some manufacturers won't tell you when a 
batch has been recalled!

It's quite common to get a lump at the site of the vaccination.  Although 
many vets won't tell you, it can happen up to 50% of the time.  (Most of 
the time, the lump will eventually go away completely.)

Strangely(or not) enough, we've never gotten this reaction when we've used
Eclipse 4KP, but we have with other vaccines. 

Also, there was recently an outbreak of (I think) pneumonitis on the west
coast.  It was brought under control by revaccinating using Eclipse 4KP. 

Eclipse 4KP is a four-way vaccine.  We use it even for kitten shots.  We've 
never had a problem, even though some say that 4-way vaccines shouldn't be 
used on kittens.

We don't do our own rabies shots.  I guess the reason is that, although I 
don't mind giving a sub-cutaneous injection, I'd rather not give an 
intra-muscular injection in something as small and wiggly as a cat; I'd be
afraid of missing the correct site and injuring them. 

As you, we don't do FELV, but do periodically test.    

Ray

re: .1

Roberta,

I think the theory is that a modified live vaccine is supposed to offer 
more protection, because it's more like the virus.

Our experience is that cats are more likely to have a reaction to the 
modified live vaccines, so that's why we prefer a killed vaccine.

The URI your kittens came down with may have been a reaction to the 
vaccine, especially if it only lasted 3 or so days.

Ray

    Ray,
    
    Is the Eclipse 4 an all killed vaccine, or modified live???  I didn't
    know that you could get the chlamydia in an all killed vaccine. 
    According to my order catalog, Eclipse 4 is modified live.  
    
    I've never had any swelling bumps from vaccines in my cats.  My vet
    uses a modified live vaccine from Tech-America...a 3-in-1 vaccine. 
    I've never used a 4-in-1 vaccine, and would love input as to whether
    others feel it's really necessary to vaccine against chlamydia or if it
    might be more dangerous.  
    
    The vaccine catalog I have suggests a 3-in-1 for the first shot, and a
    4-in-1 for the second, with FelV added after 12 weeks of age.
    
    Well, for my first try, I ordered FEL-O-VAX PCT by Fort Dodge which is
    an all killed 3-in-1 vaccine.  It comes in prefilled syringes which
    also makes it easier.  
    
    The same catalog also sells vaccines from Norden (FELOCEL CVR), Pitman
    Moore (FVR-C-P), and Solvay (Eclipse).  Of all of them, the Fort Dodge
    product that I ordered was the most expensive....if at $1.99 per
    vaccine you can call it expensive!!!  
    
    I appreciate all the response I've gotten so far...looking forward to
    hearing more info.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    Now I'm confused.  I thought that the Eclipse IS a modified live
    vaccine?  I think my papers say Eclipse 4KD but Linda writes funny
    and it could be 4KP as you stated.
    
    Is there a 4KD and 4KP?  Maybe I should just wake up and go back
    to sleep!
    

    Roberta,
    
    According to my catalog, Eclipse makes several products:
    
    ECLIPSE 4 KP  which is a killed distemper with modified live Rhino,
    Calici and Chlamydia
    
    ECLIPSE 4 - same as 4KP except that distemper is also modified live
    
    ECLIPSE 4 KP-R  which is killed rabies and distemper with modified live
    Rhino, Calici and Chlamydia
    
    ECLIPSE 3 KP - killed distemper and live rhino and calici
    
    ECLIPSE 3 - modified live for distemper, rhino, and calici
    
    There are no "KD" vaccines...at least according to the catalog I've
    got.
    
    
    
    Ray,
    
    Where do you order your vaccines from???  I placed my order with Foster
    & Smith, the prices seem lower than most others for the same products.
    
    cin
    

    The Eclipse 4KP is Eclipse 4 with *killed* panleukopenia.  The rest
    of the vaccine is modified live.  
    
    I use the Eclipse 3 for the first vaccine at 6 weeks, then Eclipse
    4 for the shots at 9 and 12 weeks.  I have been vaccinating for
    chlamydia since Kalliste arrived with it, and haven't had any problems.
    
    I have used the Fort Dodge Vaccine, and got lumps every time I used
    it.  I won't use it again.  I haven't had a single lump since switching
    to the Eclipse products.  And the Eclipse products are less expensive.
    You will need to buy syringes too, usually sold in boxes of 100.
    Buy the 22 guage, 3/4".  They have a blue cap.  I usually remember
    which they are by the cap color.  I buy them on sale for $17.00
    a box.  When you order vaccines, buy them with long expiration dates
    so that you can store them yourself.  You will get a better price
    by buying them in quantity.
    
    Roberta, your cats probably got their colds due to the stress of
    moving to a new home.  I always give my kittens their last vaccine
    at 12 weeks, and don't let them leave home til they are 16 weeks,
    this way if there is a reaction they are home with me and I can
    take care of it.  It is not unusual for a kitten to get a cold upon
    arrival at a new house.  They tend to internalize their stress,
    and this is why they get sick.
    
    I do all my own vaccinations.  I do not give rabies to my cats,
    but I do take them in for rabies shots at the vets, but only those
    cats who are being shown.  There is no state law requiring cats
    to be vaccinated for rabies in California.  I only do those who
    will be handled at shows just to be safe.  I also do not give Felv
    vaccines to my kittens or adult breeding cats.  I do vaccinate my
    household pets for it, though I don't know why I should, since they
    are indoor only, and never exposed to other cats but mine.  I test
    each of my breeding cats for felv once a year, and test every kitten
    before it goes to a new home.
    
    To be honest, I find that vaccinating the kittens is easier than
    doing the adults.  The kittens don't know what you are up to! ;^)
    
    Jo

    Cin,
    
    I order from several different places, depending on who has the
    best prices.  We have a new vaccine supplier out here, called Biologics
    Plus, and they have great prices.  I get my vaccines the next day,
    and packed in ice.  I usually have them ship them to the office,
    since I have a fridge right here that I can put them into.  If left
    on the porch for a long time, they might warm up.  I don't use any
    vaccine that I suspect has warmed too much.
    
    Other vaccine companies, Master Vaccine, Omaha Vaccine, Pro Vet,
    California Veterinary Supply.  I would choose a company that is
    close to you that also has good prices.  That way you don't have
    to worry about the vaccine staying cold during shipping.
    
    Jo

    Just so everyone understands..Panoleukemia is Feline
    Distemper....Distemper is the "common name".  
    
    Jo,
    
    Your very lucky that you can have things shipped to you at work.  They
    will not accept Personal Packages at our facility.  
    
    Also, I wouldn't feel comfortable traveling home with a box of syringes
    on my front seat!!!  I have almost an hours ride from work to home.  
    
    My first order should be arriving Fed Ex today...I left special
    instructions to leave the package in our storage shed.  
    
    cin
    

    But, Jo, are there any real benefits to using a modified live vaccine
    vs an all killed???  And should I expect less protection from the all
    killed vaccine???  
    
    Like I said in .0 my vet suggested the all killed vaccine since there
    was less chance of an allergic reaction than to modified live.  
    
    

    Jo,
    
    How many trips to the vet do you make with kittens before they go to
    homes???
    
    Lately, I've been doing the first two shots...1 at 6 1/2 weeks, and one
    at 9 1/2 weeks (at the vets) and then letting the kittens go to homes
    around 10 1/2 - 11 weeks.  Then I have the new owner bring the kitten
    in at  12 weeks.  
    
    I was finding that buyers weren't bringing the kittens in to their vets
    for a "well visit".  So, I started letting them go a little earlier and
    making the buyer responsible for the last shot and the vet check. 
    Since I've been doing it this way, every kitten that I've sold has been
    brought to the vet for its last shot, and I've been getting a
    well-visit report.  
    
    I used to keep all my kittens till at least 12 weeks, but I've been
    finding that buyers want them as young as possible, and I think they
    adjust easier at the younger age.  A week does make a difference!!  
    
    Of course, I usually have the kittens completely weaned by the time
    their 8 weeks, so by the time they go to homes they've already been
    separated from their mother for at least 2 weeks.
    
    cin
    

    Distemper is the common name of Panleukopenia is what I think you
    meant to say.  
    
    I have them ship the vaccines to my building, then I go to shipping
    and pick them up myself.  They will not deliver them to me, which
    is okay since they are only about 20 feet from my office.  The vaccines
    are in a plain brown wrapper, and so are the syringes.  No one knows
    what is in the package.  
    
    When you have syringes in the house, be sure to keep them out of
    sight, in a safe place.  I don't let non-cat people know that I
    get vaccines, just on the off chance that some one might try to
    break in for syringes.  A vet's office down the street was held
    up recently, what they took was a years supply of syringes!
    
    I give the modified live cause my vet and I believe that it offers
    better protection against the diseases.  I used a killed vaccine
    on Livee once, since she had a lowered immunity due to pneumonia
    as a kitten.  She became very ill, and we almost lost her.  I haven't
    ever had another reaction like that, and I don't use killed vaccines
    anymore either.  Livee's problem was more involved than just the
    vaccine.  She had a tough start in life, and was very fragile anyway.
    
    I keep a bottle of epinephrine in the house just in case of allergic
    reactions to vaccines.  So far, I have never had to use it.  It
    is good to have on hand, so that if something happens, you can call
    the vet and tell him that it is a reaction, you have epinephrine
    on hand, how much should you give.
    
    My kittens only go to the vet once before they leave home, unless
    for some reason they get sick.  I give the vaccines myself, and
    then the day before the kittens are going to be leaving, I take them 
    in for a health checkup, health certificate, and felv blood test.
    The new owner gets the results of the blood test along with the
    original of the health certificate, and I keep the copy for my records.
    This has worked well for me, I have had very few kittens end up
    sick at their new homes.  Occassionally, one will catch a cold,
    but mostly that is due to stress.  This way, I know they are healthy
    when they leave, and not showing any signs of illness coming on.
    
    Funny, I keep my kittens longer cause they are better able to adjust
    when older.  Maybe it is a difference in the breeds.
    
    Jo
    

re: ??

We usually buy our vaccines from Master Vaccine.

We tried those pre-loaded syringes from Fort Dodge, and got lumps.  We 
won't use their products any more.

Our health guarantee lasts only until the new owner can reasonably get the
kitten to their vet, less than a week.  This seems to work out well for 
everyone.  We let the kittens go at 12-13 weeks (older if traveling by 
airplane).  Tonks seem to get most of their socialization done from 10 to 
12 weeks of age.

Ditto Jo's words on syringes.  Very few people know we have them.

Ray 

    Cin,
    
    You may have trouble getting your own syringes in the state of Mass
    since there is a law prohibiting their sale in that state.  If you
    wish to order them and have them delivered to me in New Hampshire
    I would be glad to get them to you at a show.
    
    I also use Foster & Smith since their vaccines are always well packed
    and are guaranteed completely.  I have ordered vaccines from Master
    Vaccine and they were bad (cloudy) and when the second shipment
    came they were bad also.  I have not tried them again since.  BTW,
    that is how you tell if a vaccine is bad, it is cloudy and shouldn't
    be used.
    
    I have always used the Norden vaccines and have found that sometimes
    the lump is caused because I did not give it properly but was easily
    massaged into the tissues.  If you give a shot between the layers
    of skin you will cause a lump no matter what brand of vaccine you
    use.  But also some brands of vaccine have a poorer saturation ability
    than others.  In 11 years of vaccinating both dogs and cats and
    now horses I have never had a reaction to a Norden vaccine.  I do
    vaccinate for rabies since any animal that travels out of your state
    should be accompanied with a rabies certificate.  This will protect
    you when showing your cats at a show should anything happen.
    
    Also Cin, if you have not ever given your own shots and you would
    like some help when the time comes please let me know as I would
    be glad to come down and assist you.  The hardest part is getting
    over being nervous about doing it.  Once you get over that it is
    a breeze.  I can also give intramuscular if you need to do any of
    those.
    
    Personally I use the modified live vaccines on my kittens because
    they are suppose to give the highest level of protection and my
    vet has stated her preference to modified live.  Some breeders I
    have talked to have told me they won't use anything but the killed.
    Killed vaccines do not shed in the animals stool but the modified
    live vaccine does.  However, assuming that all your animals have
    received their vaccinations no one should have a problem with that.
    What you may want to do is call somewhere like Cornell since I
    understand they have a feline hotline number and discuss the pros
    and cons with them.
    
    I for one would be very interested to hear what they have to say.
    Since, as you know, I have just started into purebred cats, I do
    not have alot of experience in vaccinating kittens but have always
    had cats/kittens as pets and given my own vaccines.  But since I
    have been breeding dogs for 11 years I have been vaccinating all
    my dogs and litters of puppies and faithfully used the Norden modified
    live vaccines without any problems whatsoever.  Also for the past
    four years I have vaccinated my horses with the Norden vaccines
    and other than soreness had no reactions.
    
    I guess it just comes down choosing a vaccine that you have luck
    with and then sticking to it.
    
    Nancy

    Recently Norden recalled all their 4 in 1 feline vaccines.  They
    were having some types of problems, but I don't know what since
    I don't use that vaccine anyway.  I would check with your vet before
    ordering Norden Feline vaccines.
    
    The Eclipse 4 comes in two vials.  One vial has dry powder in it,
    the other has diluent.  The easiest way for me is to take the syringe,
    suck about 1 ml of air into it, inject the air into the diluent
    bottle (that helps suck all the diluent into the syringe since that
    bottle is a vacuum), and then the liquid will flow easily into the
    syringe.  Then, you inject the diluent from the syringe into the
    dry powder bottle.  I usually leave the syringe in the bottle for
    a few seconds and allow the vaccine to mix.  Once it becomes clear
    again (not cloudy from mixing), I withdraw it into the syringe and
    then depress the plunger on the syringe until the vaccine is right
    at the tip of the needle.  Then I cap the syringe and set it aside.
    I usually prepare all syringes at the same time, then I can vaccinate
    all cats one right after the other. 
    
    I keep health records for all my cats, after setting the vaccine
    aside, I get the proper cat's health record, note the date, brand
    of vaccine, and the stock number off both the powder bottle and
    the diluent bottle.  Then I get the cat...
    
    Next step, I put a small amount of rubbing alcohol on a cotton swab,
    and rub the area where the needle will enter.  Wait a minute or
    two for the alcohol to dry, otherwise, when you stick them with
    the needle, the alcohol will burn and the cat will jump.  I *cannot*
    give a vaccine unless the cat is facing my left side, and I have
    the capped syringe between my front teeth!! 8^)  I pull the syringe
    out of the cap, leaving the cap between my teeth, and then inject
    the cat.  I have tried and tried to do it other ways, but I cannot!
    After injecting all the vaccine, I rub the area to help the vaccine
    dissipate (sp).   I then put the cap partially on the syringe, and
    break the needle off with the cap.  Then pack the syringe back up
    in it's container and dispose of it.
    
    Nancy is right, most lumps are caused by improper technique in giving
    the vaccine.  But, some vaccines do cause lumps, and they can take
    months to go away.  My old vet once gave Kyrielle her rabies shot
    sub-q, and it took six months for the lump to dissappear.  I showed
    her during that time, and every judge would feel the lump and make
    a face.  
    
    Jo
    

    Jo Ann,
    
    I know you're an expert at this now but have you told the story
    in FELINE about when you firsted started doing vaccines on Monroe
    and Winston.  You're so good at telling stories that I thought it
    would be fun to hear it again.  And you know how much I love those
    needle stories. ;-)
    
    Jan

    I am pretty sure that I did tell that story.  I think I also told
    the one about the time I vaccinated *myself* against Feline Leukemia.
    Both of these stories involve Monroe...... hmmmmmmm..... I am starting
    to see a pattern here!
    
    Jo

    Cin,
    
    Just a word of warning about giving a rabies sub-q, I have read
    articles stating that if a rabies is given sub-q, then it isn't
    effective.  All rabies must be given intramuscular.
    
    Jo, 
    
    I had heard about the Leukocell being recalled but not the regular
    vaccines.  I will have to call Foster and Smith and check that out.
    Since I have never given a rabies sub-q I wouldn't know about getting
    lumps you couldn't work out (except on horses and that was poor
    technique on the vet's part).  I haven't ever had one on a puppy
    or cat/kitten that I couldn't work out.  Maybe I have been lucky.
    
    Nancy

    Just to clarify [pun intended!], some vaccines ARE opaque
    (cloudy) and that doesn't mean they are 'bad.'  For example,
    the Ft. Dodge Felovax PCT (3-in-one killed vaccine) looks
    like a pale amoxicillin mixture -- light bubble-gum pink and
    not at all clear.  It comes pre-mixed, and can also be obtained
    in pre-filled syringes.  I've used it both ways, and both have
    the same appearance.
    
    Perhaps other vaccines should be clear...it would no doubt be
    safest to check what YOUR brand should look like!
    
    Jo...I couldn't believe your description of giving vaccines!
    I can ONLY give them with the cat facing left, and I, too, put
    the capped syringe in my mouth, apply alcohol, and remove the
    needle/syringe leaving cap in mouth.  When done, I remove the
    cap, insert needle, discard needle...but I keep and wash the
    syringe for oral feedings/meds later.
    
    Great minds... etc!
    
    	Pennie

    It is funny how when you find a method that works for you, you can't
    seem to do it any other way.  I didn't even know that I had this
    "problem" with giving vaccines until I tried to do it differently
    to accomodate one of my cats.
    
    Out here in California, there is a rabies vaccine that is used that
    is given sub-q.  It is supposed to be given sub-q.  I don't remember
    the brand name, and haven't let any vet use it on my cats since
    Kyrielle had her problem with the lump.
    
    I have had other lumps, from regular vaccines, that lasted several
    months.  The Fort Dodge killed vaccine has given me quite a few
    lumps and bumps.  
    
    On the topic of rabies, California has no state law that requires
    cats to be vaccinated for rabies.  But, if a cat bites someone and
    *appears* to show signs of having rabies, it must either be quarantined
    for 6 months, or euthanized.  What laws do other states have about
    rabies vaccinations and cats?
    
    Jo

    Eek.  Does the Ca. law apply if the cat has been vaccinated against rabies?
    
    I don't remember the self-vaccination story being told in here....  

    I don't believe that quarantine/euthanasia applies if the cat has
    been vaccinated.  That is why I vaccinate all mine.  The reason
    that CA doesn't require that cats be vaccinated is that they don't
    consider cats to be "property" or "owned" like dogs are.  I think
    that is stupid.  When you consider that most dogs are kept in fenced
    yards, and have very little access to wild life, there chances of
    contracting rabies are less than those of an outdoor cat!  Outdoor
    cats hunt rodents, birds, squirrells, and other small creatures
    who could be rabid.  The law just don't make sense to me...
    
    Jo

    In New Hampshire the law requires your DOG to have a rabies shot.
    In order to license the dog you must show proof it is up to date
    on rabies shots. Recently our vet has suggested that all cats be
    vacinated for rabies also. Rabies are a big problem in the New
    England states.
    
    When Mocha bit Tim and Tim had to be hospitalized, and the doctor
    found out it was a cat bite the first thing he asked was did the
    cat have a rabies shot? IF the answer would have been no they would
    have made arangements to take Mocha and put him in quartine for
    2 weeks to see if he exhibited any sympotoms, and if he did they
    would have put him to sleep, cut off his head and sent his brain
    to Concord, NH to the lab to check for rabies. This proceedure is
    always in the forefront of my mind to keep our cats updated in their
    shorts, especially Mocha. Fortunately he hasn't bitten anyone since.
    
    Barbara

    Barbra-
    
    Do they really cut off their head?  Yuck! :*P
    
    M&N

    Yup, they sure do, as the lab needs the brain to test for rabies.
    
    Like I say a real nugger to keep those shots current.
    
    Barbara

    Well, I gave my first 3 vaccines last night...after calling Pennie to
    confirm that the vaccine looked the way it was suppose to!!!  ;-) 
    Thanks Pennie!
    
    I was lucky, my hubby acted as assistant.  
    
    I set the kitten on the grooming table in the cattery....hardest thing
    was keeping the others off the grooming table while I was giving the
    shot!!!  
    
    Anyway, I faced the kitten away from me, and had hubby hold the kitten
    and scratch it's ears.  I had the syringe already in one hand, and I 
    just lifted the skin around the back of the shoulders with one hand,
    and "stuck" with the other.  
    
    None of the kittens even batted an eye.  In fact, they all appeared
    quite happy for the ear scratch!!!  No lumps, no bumps, I saved myself
    $39 that would have gone to my vet, and I didn't have to take the
    kittens out in the rain last night, risk picking up fleas, or what have
    you at the vet.
    
    I was quite pleased with myself.
    
    I decided to start giving my own vaccines when my vet raised his prices
    from $6.00 for a vaccine to $15.00.  
    
    cin
    

    Cin,
    
    Geez, you make it sound so easy!  I remember my first attempt at
    giving a shot.  I had been "briefed" on how to do it.  I got the
    vaccine ready, put Monroe up on the counter, carefully lifted the
    skin, stuck the needle in, amazed that Monroe showed no reaction
    what so ever, depressed the plunger, and watched pink vaccine run
    down Monroe's cream colored body!! 8^o  I hadn't even punctured
    the skin!! 8^D
    
    So, I got out another vaccine and we tried and tried until we got
    it right.  Monroe has never been sick a day in his life since that
    night!  He probably has enough vaccine in him to last the rest of
    his life. :^)
    
    Then there was the time that I was giving Monroe his Leukemia shot.
    I had asked my neice, Kari, to help me since the Leukocell has a
    tendency to burn, and the cats try to escape.  Well, we were down
    on the floor since Kari felt more comfortable holding him down there.
    I inserted the needle, and Monroe turned towards me, I said "it's
    okay Monroe, this won't hurt a bit" as I depressed the plunger.
    All of the sudden, Kari yells "Aunt Jo, the needle is in your
    finger!!!!"  At that precise moment, I realized that when Monroe
    had moved, the needle had come out of his skin, gone through one
    of my fingers and lodged in the other!  I had injected a full syringe
    of Leukocell into my own finger and hadn't even noticed!  It didn't
    start to hurt until Kari so graciously pointed it out to me.  And
    boy, did it hurt then!!  We had trouble getting the bleeding to
    stop, and my index finger was the size of a banana.  For weeks
    afterwards, I had trouble touching anything with my left hand without
    it hurting.
    
    The problem was that I didn't have the syringe cap between my teeth
    when giving either of these shots!  ;^)
    
    Jo

    Good Lord, Jo.  I still say you should write a book!  
    
    I'm still waitin' for Cin to write her very own 'Lil' story !!!!
    It's almost as good as yours, Jo.
    
    E.T.

    Jo,
    
    I've given sub-cueue fluids, and this was MUCH easier!!!  You should
    have seen the poor kitten when I was learning fluids....my husband was
    going to nick name him "pin cusion"!!!
    
    It really was easy...I think I was more nervous than anything.  
    
    I think that doing the paperwork before was harder and took longer than
    actually doing the shots!!!
    
    
    Okay, now for the Lil story!!!
    
    As you all know, Lil has been at my house for breeding.  I have had her
    living in a Walk-In pen in the cattery.  
    
    Well, Lil Broke Out yesterday!!!!!  When Dave (my hubby) got home, he
    said that Lil was out running around the cattery raising h*ll with all
    the other cats.  
    
    I have had a cat in the Pen everyday for over 2 years, and have NEVER
    had any of them break out....
    
    Leave it to Lil!!!!!
    
    Dave said she grumbled at him Big Time when he returned her to the Pen
    last night.  I then secured the door with the "spring" load that I
    haven't used since Fire's been gone!
    
    cin
    

    And there are actually people who think that Persians/Exotics are
    not smart!  Amazing! 8^D
    
    Jo

    I am still howling over that one!  I can just see that scrunge
    pushing with either her flat face or her front feet.
    Cin, you are lucky she didn't break the silly door.  Lil
    gets what she wants, when she wants it, no matter what is
    standing in her way!
    
    Jo, I wouldn't exactly say that she is 'super' smart-
    funny, cute, but 'smart' ??  hmmmmm

    Cin - do you make housecalls?!  I'd love to learn to vaccinate my
    own cats!!
    
    These stories are great!  E.T. - Looks like Lil wants a turn with
    each of Cin's males, not just one!!
    

    I am still laughing .. I read that before I left yesterday..and I
    chuckled all the way home.. not to mention most of the evening..
    she is a riot.. Hey Aunt Cin,, perhaps you should warn ''UNCLE
    Dave.. I overheard Happy calling FED ex this morning,, she was asking
    how much much to ship a " tool kit" to Fitchburg.. Tee-hee
    Regards
    Kate

    Kate, Lil doesn't even NEED tools - she just uses her flat face or
    her stubby legs/paws!  You know, last weekend when I was at Cin's
    house, 'I' closed the door myself, after we put Lil in the pen.
    I was the last one out - that door was NOT easy to close.  It fits
    VERY snuggly within the frame.  I really can't believe she (5.5 lbs)
    pushed it open.  Then of all the nerve, the other kids in the 
    cattery actually had the nerve to go into the pen and eat all her
    Perform Kitten food!  She was really pis*ed about that.  Just
    think, we are going to clone this personality - think we ought
    to stop before it's too late?  Lordy, more 'Lily' brats!! sigh
    Her babies really ought to be very interesting and lots of fun,
    to say the least!!!  I think I'll build an extension on the
    house to keep them in so they won't destroy the house.  just kidding!
    
    E.T. (who STILL misses her baby and WANTS HER HOME SOON)

    Elaine, I know that, and you know that, BUT from what I overheard,
    Happy thought the TOOLS would expedite things..she  told me that
    Lil was a "bit put out" by the cage.. she told Happy that she wanted
    to Play will all her kitty cousins.. like she plays with her siblings
    at home.. tee-hee.. HMMM, I know they are funny.. Happy did her
    "diappearing act one time at the groomers.. they finall found
    her sitiin way up top on ashelf.. looking at down at 2 "upset"
    humans.. calling her name..!!!! now "we check for the "tool kit"
    when we drop off.. hee-hee.. I can well imagine she was not happy
    about "sharing her kitty food.. "TOYS ARE ONE THING.. FOOD is
    a totally different issue.. " what   a cutie.. personally
    I  am  anxious to meet the new babies..(hint.. hint.. hint..)
    I have had kitty fever for awhile..
    my best to the kids..
    Kate

    so, when are you coming over, Kate???
    
    cin...who has 2 litters now, 1 @ 7 wks, and 1 @ 3 wks.
    

    ....Did you say babies?...I have been talking to Pookie..generically
    of course.. and I know that Happy would love to have someone to 
    boss around.. er "love up"..funny you should mention that.. Daddy
    (aka Don.. as in your neighbor) asked me(read US) what I(read we)wanted
    for Christmas..Pookies response should not be of any  surprise
    MONEY,TOYS..Happy FOOD, TOYS, or all food..(I will commandeer. er
    
    I mean "share Pookies  toys. I would love to get Happy a playmate..
    she really likes to Play.. as you know Cin I can tell you
    that it is rare,, that HER ROYAL HIGHNESS PLAYS,, I think her last
    real exhibition was the one she put on for you, I know, I know
    don't anybody faint,, Cin came to visist, and was  making of Happy
    when Lo AND BEHOLD.. OUT CAME her Royal Highness.. with her mouse..
    and Played for Cins benefit.. we even let Aunt Cin hold her..!!!!
    I know, Poor Auntie Elaine..  the last time she held Pookie,
    all she did was Complain... Right Elaine!!!!!..the big question is
    ( or one of them anyway) Do I get Happy  and Pookie a little
    boy or a  little girl?..the little one would give Happy
    someone to talk to.. I remember Phyillis telling me that Happy
    "talked and talked to her babies".. I know that when she tries
    to converse with Pookie.. Pookie get "bored  with the conversation
    real fast".. probably I assume because it does not have much to
    do with the more "genteel and Pookie type subjects.. Money, toys,
    stocks,bonds. Happy is ino the good life, Food, toys(always second)
    playing, birdwatching, and the like... hey!! wouldn't be a hoot/
    or cat meow(pardon the pun) if it looked like Pookie?.. tee-hee..
    Kate who has baby kitty fever..
    
    p S. I would love to come over, will there be a kitty check?..
     and Will Pookie call Aunt Cin..saying check her pockets etc..
    eek it is baby.. hmm.. now that the salry freeze is lifted
    what better way to spend my increase, than to make Happy
    Happy?

    Kate,
    
    There's always a pocket check on the way out!!!  ;-)
    
    of course, that includes, bags, pocketbooks, etc.
    
    cin
    

    Cin,
    
    Watch it - Kate has big wide hems in her skirts!!! and a side pocket
    on the inside of her jacket!! (it's kitten size)
    
    E.T.

    Drat, you told her E.T, about my kitty -katnapping outfit....!!!!
    tee-hee.. Happy designed it!!..:*)) Heavens, it has been over a  year
    sinced I visited you and the "kids.." Don and I are usually up here
    for the weekends.. I used to think he enjoyed my company,, I am
    convinced that Happy has "charmed him.."he even goes "looking for her..
    should she be sleeping..and of course Her Royal Highness and him
    "share" Barrons,and discuss market trends.I did hear the funniest
    conversation between Don and Happy on Sunday morning,
             Don: Hungry , Hap? time for breakfast?
             Happy: yack, meow etc
             Don:    Happy , you want Maypo?,  good thought, Happy
                    it will you warm on your motorcycle , on the way to
                    look at Toyotas.. I agree, a "pink one" might  be hard
                    get.
           Happy: yack, meow.. etc
      .. I was trying to "keep a straight face".. it was hard.. Pookie
     just gives them both "balefull looks and saunters off.. I am sure
     she thinking.. good grief!! a PINK Toyota!!.. not me, I want a JAG!!!
     AH yes, I must confess, it was at Cins house last year that the "kitty
     fever" struck,
    Kate
    
    p.s. it is really 2 side pockets.. tee-hee..
            

    Hmmmmm, maybe I'll just do a head count before I let you out the door,
    Kate!!!  ;-)
    
    cin...whose house is full of cute furries right now!
    

    Cin,
    
    	After my visit last night I have to agree. Your house sure is
    	full of cute little furries right now! Those little flat faces
    	are so appealing it was tempting to smuggle one of those babies
    	out with me. I wonder what Charm, Magic and Mistral would have
    	thought of one of those cute little guys.
    
    	When Stripees greeted me at the door I knew I was at the right
 	house!
       
    E.T.
    
    	I saw the door that Lil pushed open. ..Now how did she do that?!
    	I just can't believe anyone with that sweet face would do such
    	a thing!
    
    
    Linda ...who had a great time visiting!   :^)
                

    Hmmmm.. talk about Merry Kittymas.. tee-hee..I also  should warn you
    about Happy's disgise.. aKitty elf costume with sack..(just the right
    size)I can just see her now, 1 little kitty for me  to boss er love..
    1 little kitty for mummy, no little kitties fro the old Crabby cat..
    whoops I mean my dear sister,she can play with toys... tee-hee...
    I can also picture brining them home on her motorcycle, not too
    mention LiL helping her carry them out..!!!!! tee-hee
    Regards
    Kate
    

    Linda,
    
    No fair - you SAW and probably TOUCHED and PATTED by baby girl.
    I can't stand it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Did she look up at you with 'those' eyes? Makes ya wanna just
    eat her face up for lunch!! Boy, the house is so empty..sigh.
    I miss her so much - Cin is wondering why I haven't visited her -
    if I showed up over there it would be with a crate and Lil would
    be on her way home to Candia - to hell with breeding.  I'm fighting
    the urge very HARD.  Lordy, she has been gone 1.5 weeks - I really
    hate having her not home. She follows me every where in the house,
    she helps me wash the dishes, helps me do the laundry, helps me
    vacuum, helps me brush my teeth, helps me cook, helps me eat my
    dinner, she has me trained to run to her cage door every 20 seconds
    whether she is hungry or not!!
    
    How she pushed that door open, I'll never know either.  She really
    is something else - and just think, we are going to clone her
    personalily - good lord, she may have kits just like herself!!!
    Heaven help the world - wonder if the world can stand offspring
    just like Lil!  What jun! yuk yuk - they really ought to be funny
    babies!
    
    

    Yup, E.T., that's just what Lil did. There she was, looking right
    up at me with 'those eyes'. I considered trying to convince Cin
    you'd never notice if I took Lil home with me ...but I decided
    Cin would rather not have to deal with what Lil's "mom" would
    do to her if I tried to put that plan into action!
    
    I can see it now... a litter of 5 beautiful little Exotics all
    scampering around your house. Now how are you ever going to drag
    yourself out the door to go to work?!
    
    Charm may have a chance to visit a really nice boy after the first
    of the year ...and I'm excited about the whole idea ...until I
    remember that it means sending her half way across the country for
    an indeterminate amount of time. Now how am I going to do that?!
    
    Now, how is these little characters manage to become so important
    in our lives?  Ah, well. We wouldn't have it any other way!
    
    Linda ...who thinks Lil will make a great mom. What fun those babes
          will be! ....and every one chasing a pea across the floor!
    

    Yup, it's those eyes!  She is just so wonderful!  Every day gets
    harder and harder - I really hate having her gone!  I just like
    to look at her - her coat is so pretty and her little legs are
    so stumpy.  Boy, do I wish she has 5 babies (all girls) - what
    a dream come true!!! (and shorthairs to boot!) - ah , dream on.
    Good Lord, Linda, if they are like their mom, it's gonna be
    a real stitch watching them develop.  I hope they go to homes
    near by so I can hear stories and maybe catch a glimpse once
    in a while (at least the first litter).  Well, as long as Lil
    and her babies are healthy, that will be just fine.
    Trust me when I tell you Linda, had you taken one step out of
    the cattery with my baby girl, you probably would not live to
    tell about it - even in Candia, I would have known that you
    were trying !!!  Mothers are like that, yes they are !!!
    
    E.T._not_so_patiently_waiting_for_Lil_to_come_home

    Ok, ET, tell Lil five shorthaired baby girls, just tell her
    *not* to have any silver tabby shorthaired girls!!!!
    
    Mary-Michael (whose physician is already about to shoot her)
    and Niniane, Charm, Dream, Boogie, Mips and Belle  

    

    re: -1 - Its the boy you gotta tell, not Lil!!  

    Re: Elaine..
      Now E.T. I know how much you miss Lil, as I was chatting with Pookie
    last nite and I was telling her how much you missed your little  baby,
    and she was my lap like a flash.. Packing Happys BAG..!!!!! TEE-HEE..
    She said you could have Happy to keep you company!!! tee-hee.. Of
    course I said now wait a minute Pookie, we would both be lonely
    with out Happy here,, she just gave me a baleful look. tee-hee..
    Hmm.,, and yes I have been mentioning babies to her.. she just stares
    at me.. no reponse.. hmmmmm... 
    Regards
    Kate

    Well M-M, if Lil had a short-haired silver, I think Cin would be
    on my doorstep in nanoseconds!!!  I doubt she will, though.  A
    nice bright red classic girl would be real swell!!!  
    
    Hey Red Boy, (what's his name?) are you listening - I am placing
    an order for five (that's 5) baby girls, short hairs) - what a
    joke - all I do is think of Cin's record over these last few
    months!  sigh, I'll probably be right behind her with longhairs
    coming out of the logs!!  Ah, the joys of breeding Exotics -
    actually, I'm expecting the worst (5 boys) and if I get a girl
    or two, I'll be VERY happy - and, if I get one shorthair or even
    two, I'll be VERY VERY happy!  AND, I'll be even HAPPIER if Lil
    just goes in to heat before the snow flies!!!    I'll be the
    HAPPIEST if Lil just plain COMES HOME to me whatever way any way!!!
    
    E.T._grumble_grumble_grumble_I_MISS_MY_BABY_GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If Lil is a blue cream and is bred to a red male, won't there be
    almost no chance that a red girl will be in the litter??  I thought
    that all the girls would have to be blue cream or torties.  Help
    me on this one.
    
    Jo

    E.T.,
    
    If we get a Silver Tabby from Lil, were in trouble!!!!  Genetically it
    is impossible!!!!!
    
    ...."Red Boy" is his name....at least that's what were calling him. 
    His registered name is going to be:  Marbo's Impulse of Cattyshack.
    
    Hmmm, suppose I could call him Impy!!!
    
    ;-0
    cin
    

    Jo,
    
    Lil is a Brown Patched Tabby...which means genetically she carries Red. 
    In order to get a Red female, you have to have Red showing on both the
    mom and dad.  
    
    You could also get a Red female from a Blue Cream, Tortie or Red Female
    as long as they were bred to a Red or Cream male.
    
    cin
    

    yummy!  my brain is overflowing with curious possibilities!!  Go Lil
    Go!  Yup, she's a brown patched with wonderful mohogany red patches!!
    She really is a pretty girl (even if I do say so meself!) a flashy
    baby. I'm gonna take another roll of film in the near future -
    I haven't taken any since she was a baby.
    
    

    Elaine, I pulled out some old pictures of Fire last night....It's
    amazing to see pictures of him when he was 6 months old!!!  I don't
    know what I saw in him then, but he sure did turn out gorgous!
    
    

    Well, I have to say that Lil is pretty much ok.  Guess her parents
    and grandparents couldn't have been toooo shabby !

    
    I would like to preface this note by saying that it is not intended to
    cause alarm, but to make one aware of potential problems.
    
    About 2 weeks ago I brought Bailey in for his vaccines, his 3-in-1 and 
    his leuk shot.  It is a 5-10 min.ride from the vet to home and within a
    couple of minutes of arriving home he was vomiting. He got this glazed 
    look and continued to vomit and began to defecate on the floor.  It then 
    got to the point where he was just lying there with diarrhea with pouring 
    out of him and his breathing rate had increased.  I wrapped him in a towel
    and rushed him to the emergency hospital.  I was scared to death.  I had to
    keep checking his pupils to make sure they were not dilated because
    I knew that I was losing him.  I got to the hospital and his heartbeat
    was barely audible.  They gave him epinephrine and hoped we were not
    too late. No one thought he was going to make it through the night.
    The diagnosis was anaphylactic shock caused by an allergic reaction to the
    vaccines. He has had both before and I did not expect to have any problems.
    Because the vaccines were given at the same time, we don't know if it was 
    the Leuk shot (popular concensus), the 3-in-1 (it was modified live), or 
    the combination of the two. Xrays from Wed. showed his heart and liver 
    enlarged twice their size, there was fluid around the lungs, his intestines
    were inflamed, and he was trying so hard to breathe that he had flattened 
    his body down so much, his spine was flat and you could not even tell he 
    was was an exotic.  Thursday's showed everything back to normal.  Talking 
    with folks at a show I found out there had been other cases where both 
    vaccines were administered at the same time and the endings were not happy
    ones.
    
    I now know that I have got to monitor Bailey after he receives vaccines
    or meds. I will never have more than one administered at a time (and
    never the leuk again). Had I followed my normal pattern of having
    them done before work, dropping him home and then going on the office, he 
    would not be here.     
    
    
    

    When I took the kids in for shots last week, my vet
    mentioned that they would have to come in for the
    FELv booster, as they wouldn't give it together with
    the others.
    
    Lynne

    Thanks for posting this warning.  My vet used to keep the
    cats in the office for 20 minutes after Leuk shots, which he says is
    the danger period, but discontinued that practice a year or so
    ago, because he has not been having trouble with the shots.
    I'll camp out in the waiting room for awhile in the future.
    
    Please let us know how Bailey does.
    

    God was sure with you that day, Marlene.  Thanks for posting this
    warning.
    
    My vet swears she has had no trouble with the felv shots either but I
    am too skeptical to have the cats done.  Nikki, TK, and Kelsey had the
    series of 3 but I never kept up with the boosters.
    
    --Roberta
    

    Makes me GLAD I keep the epinephrine at home!  
    
    Your description of what happened is in a way comforting--
    let me explain what I mean.
    
    I used to think that IF a vaccinated kit/cat got an anaphylatic
    reaction, I would have perhaps 3 seconds to inject the epi.
    The vet assured me that there would be several to many minutes.
    
    So I relaxed a bit, and now keep the epi. in the refrgerator, and
    the syringe in the drawer, and trust that IF I needed to use it,
    I could manage not to panic, and to fill the correct dosage into
    the syringe, and inject it subQ in, say, 5 minutes max.  Should
    take much less time, of course, once I noticed a problem.
    
    BTW, one of my previous vets (whom I trusted lots, but he moved
    out of state, grrrr) suggested that I keep a syringe ready with
    sterile saline, add epi if needed, and inject the whole works.
    I keep forgetting to ask my new vets (whom I also trust lots)
    if this is indeed the preferred method, or is epi straight up
    (not on the <melted?> rocks) okay too?
    
    Anyone know?  Anyone had to actually administer it for a shock
    reaction?
    
    	Pennie

    I have never had to administer the epinephrine.  My Kalliste babies are
    due for their first shots anyday, so I put a call into the vet to get
    the proper dosages of epi to give in case of a problem.  I plan to tape
    the dosage chart and a syringe to the epi bottle so that it would all
    be there if I ever do need it.  
    
    I think that the anaphylactic reactions could differ from cat to cat,
    so be prepared.  You may not have much time, depending on the severity
    of the reaction.
    
    Jo

    
    Re: 62  Good point, Jo.  If Bailey was injected again with the
    substance that caused first reaction, there is a possibility 
    he could be gone by the time the needle was out.
    
    
    
    

    Well, after consulting with Doc Rue, I have decided that from now on
    all my vaccines will be given on Tuesday and Thursday nights.  These
    are the nights that the local Morgan Hill vet stays open late.  The
    directions for using the Epinephrine are a tad bit beyond my current
    capabilities.  If one of my cats went into anaphylactic shock, I
    wouldn't have time to get to Doc Rue's (she is an hour away) and the 
    emergency vet on call in Morgan Hill might not be available in time.
    
    Doc Rue did say that if a reaction was going to occur, the first signs
    of it would appear within 3-5 minutes.  I figure that watching the cat
    for about 15-30 minutes after a shot should cover any chance of a
    reaction happening.
    
    Jo
    

    Jo this may be out of your area, but there is (used to be?) an
    emergency vet clinic in San Jose that covered the evening
    hours, weekends, etc.  Its counterpart in Palo
    Alto is listed in the yellow pages under Veterinary Hospitals -
    Emergency (if I recollect correctly).
    

    Karen, the San Jose Emergency Clinic would be too far away in the case
    of anaphylactic shock, but I have used them for other things.  With the
    Anaphylactic shock, I would have to get the cat to the vet within
    minutes, and the San Jose clinic is about a 25 minute drive (doing 80
    mph with no traffic!)
    
    Morgan Hill doesn't have an emergency clinic.  All the local vets take
    turns being on call.  The problem is that you call the vet's number,
    you get the service, then they page the vet, then the vet calls the
    service, they tell him that you have an emergency, and then he calls
    you.  This process has taken as long as 45 minutes in some cases!  I
    could have been at Doc Rue's in that amount of time (again driving 80
    mph with no traffic)!  Morgan Hill isn't really in the forefront on
    animal medical treatments.  You don't even get a choice of which vet
    will treat your cat in an emergency.  You have to go with whoever
    happens to be on call.  There have been several cases that I have 
    stabilized a cat myself and then made that drive to Fremont and Doc Rue
    rather than risking the "on call" vet.  Ten years of living in Morgan
    Hil and getting to know the local vets makes me really appreciate Doc
    Rue. :^)  The times that I couldn't reach her at home, I have used the
    San Jose or Campbell clinic.  The Campbell emergency clinic is on
    Bascom Avenue right off of Hamilton (at highway 17) in case any of you
    ever need to know.
    
    Jo

    Well, that settles it.  Fort Dodge has just come out with a 5-in-1
    that is the all killed 4-in-1 + FLV.  I definitely will not use that.
    Actually most of my cats are on different schedules for their 4-in-1's
    and rabies vs FLV but I had considered getting them on the same
    schedule.
    
    Anyone know the proper doseage for a kitten or cat of epinephrine
    in the event of anaphilactic shock?
    

    re: .67
    
    Yes, I know.  :^)
    
    But I don't want to get arrested for "practicing without a license."
    		:^)
    
    I also would feel terrible if someone followed my advice, and lost
    a cat (maybe would have lost it anyway, but...one would never know).
    
    I suggest that you call your vet, and ask for instructions.  Jo
    and I were told similar procedures/mixtures, one for IV (ha!) and
    the other for subQ.  The subQ uses larger amounts, and would take
    a bit longer to act.  That is why I was "relieved" at the earlier
    note that there had been time to get back to the vet.  I used to
    be afraid there were seconds/minutes to act...it does seem that
    in a least some such cases, there is a "window of opportunity"
    both for the epi to be administered, and then for it to be absorbed.
    
    	Pennie

    Pennie is right.  Best idea is to get vaccines at a time when a vet
    will be available in case of anaphylactic shock.  I was told that if
    you give the epi sub-q, you still had to rush it to the vet, cause it
    could take too long for the epi to work if given the sub-q route.
    
    I was told that the most desirable way to administer epinephrine to a
    cat that is in anaphylactic shock was to dilute it with saline and
    inject directly into a vein.  This is a bit beyond my realm of
    experience, but being a former nurse you may be able to distinguish
    between a vein and an artery on a cat and do it yourself.  I don't even
    want to have to try. :^)  Call your vet and ask him to give you
    specifics on the dosage.  Pennie and I were both told that the epi had
    to be diluted with sterile saline solution too, so find out how you can
    get that too.
    
    I have modified my vaccine schedules a bit.  I will now only do
    vaccines on Tuesday or Thursday nights, or Saturday mornings.  These
    are the times that the local vet is in and I am also available.  In the
    case of shock, I wouldn't have enough time to get to Doc Rue.
    
    Jo

    Thanks for the warnings guys.  I went home and looked at the
    instructions on my bottle of epi and it says something about 
    diluting it 1:1000.  So I now realize that i have to get some
    saline and I also have to talk to my vet as to the proper way
    to administer it.
    
    Bonnie has a vet checkup next monday (day 49 of her pregnancy) so
    I'll bring the bottle of epi and ask at that time.
      Nancy